Sabbath Day and the Ten Commandments [Archive]

bear (bear)

09-20-2005, 02:45 AM

Actually Paul taught that we should not be bound to any one day for feasts, sabbaths, etc.

Jesus fulfilled the law. It is not one day, but everyday that we are to "enter his rest".

The Ten Commandemnts are broken down as follows:

1-5 = Duties toward God
6-10 = Duties toward others

Jesus fulfilled these when he stated

1. Love the Lord with our entire being.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

There were 611 laws in the OT. If we are going to keep some OT laws , and not others, we are not understanding the text. It is not even possible to do it in a acurate way.

- We do not use animal sacrifice.
- We do not do ceremonial washings
- Etc.

People have, through their traditions, argued about the entire Saturday/Sunday issue. From a NT percpective, it does not matter.

Paul only kept the sabbath with the Jews, never with other nations. It is not one day that is holy, but everyday. The OT sabbath was a shadow of our salvation in Christ.

Now, it is a good tradition to keep one day out of seven for going to church. However, it is not a command that one day should be set apart.

turtle (turtle)

09-21-2005, 06:26 PM

Reason that is said why we worship on sunday instead of on saturday is because of they day that Christ arose. We celebrate the sabatha on the day that Christ came out of the grave which was sunday. But has far as any other reason not really biblically have one.

But let me ask a question are we not to worship everyday. Take time everyday just to praise and worship God. What matters what day you worship on it is what is in the heart.

turtle (turtle)

09-21-2005, 06:31 PM

One more thought it says in Gensis God rested on the seventh day not worshipped on the seventh day. Look at what Exoduce 20 actually says about the sabbath.

Exodus 20:8-10
(8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
(9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
(10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Do people take a day of rest at all nowadays with our busy life styles. Not on saturday and not on sunday for most of the United States either. Not sure about other countries. But some I know do not even get one day from work to rest.

Point being I think it is important to take time to honor God to mediate on His word and worship together in unity and love.

Hebrews 13:15
(15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

This verse says to praise God continually.

(Message edited by turtle on September 21, 2005)

godchild (godchild)

09-23-2005, 06:50 AM

Our lives should always be Christ centered, not just at certain times. But God gave the Ten Commandments for His purposes. Are we to follow the commandments of God or traditions made by man. Pagans worshiped the sun. Constantine wanted to unite his kingdom. He decided to join the Christians and pagans by making Sunday the day of worship and not judaize them. Jews worship on the seventh day.
The Catholic Church decided that the Sun day was an appropriate day to worship Christ. In Daniel's dream, he said the little horn thinks to change times and laws. What law did God give that had to do with time? The day appointed by God to rest and honor His creation by worshiping him. No man or church can change God's laws. The Catholic Converts Catechism states: Which is the Sabbath Day--Saturday. They placed their authority over God's and protestant churches have gone along with it. There is no evidence in the Bible stating Christians are to change the Sabbath Day.
This concerns me. Maybe it should all of us. The definition of blasphemy is changing God's word.

yaakov (yaakov)

09-23-2005, 02:45 PM

steel, all of the Ten Commandments are Old Testament. Are we to forget them?

Since the Christian deity fulfilled all the laws, it seems that you should ditch the 10 commandments.

arron (arron)

09-23-2005, 03:02 PM

the commanments of GOD are written in or hearts. we do by nature the laws of GOD. we still have to live right.

common_sense (common_sense)

09-23-2005, 05:56 PM

Yaakov,
You'd like Christians to "ditch" anything that you claim as relating to Judaism, wouldn't you? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif Not going to happen -- we share a divinely planned heritage.
As Arron said, God's law is now written on our hearts. The religion and practice of Jewish law does not apply to the Christian, but God's Law is immutable and eternal. We follow that law because we worship Him and because it is an outworking of Christ's righteousness in us.

godchild (godchild)

09-23-2005, 07:36 PM

Yaakov, Would you agree the Ten Commandments are about Love? Why do you think the Ten Commandments were given? If prayer is the only way to repentance, why have laws? You are saying following the laws doesn't bring repentance. What does repentance do for you? Why do you want it? If it brings you back to the presence of God, why do you need a messiah? Are you working to bring peace between you and followers of Islam? Or will your messiah do that for you?

yaakov (yaakov)

09-23-2005, 09:57 PM

godchild

Yaakov, Would you agree the Ten Commandments are about Love?

I don’t understand your question. God gave 613 Laws to the Jews and 7 to the gentiles. They show us how to live Godly, how to emulate God, and how to be holy.

Why do you think the Ten Commandments were given?

God gave the Jews 613 Laws, not just the 10 Sayings. He gave us the Laws so that we would know how to act. Slang: “Can’t play the game unless you know the rules, eh?”

If prayer is the only way to repentance, why have laws?

I don’t understand your question. Laws outline our behavior so that we can be holy and emulate God. God didn’t create us to be perfect and expects us to make mistakes. It is through mistakes that we learn. By following His laws, we can fix our mistakes and atone for our errors.

Prayer is used for multiple purposes, such as thanking God, atoning for mistakes, seeking guidance, getting strength to endure travails, etc.

You are saying following the laws doesn't bring repentance.

Incorrect. Some of the Laws describe how to repent for our mistakes. Following the Laws of Teshuvah will achieve atonement.

What does repentance do for you?

It cleanses my soul and lifts my spirit. For example, I made a bad mistake last year which I was feeling badly about. During Yom Kippur, I repented my mistake and prayed to God. Suddenly, I experienced a feeling of lightness and felt my troubles soar away. I knew that God had forgiven me and atoned my soul.

If it brings you back to the presence of God, why do you need a messiah?

God never leaves our presence, He is everywhere.

The Jewish Messiah will bring the Jewish nation to a position of religious importance in the world. People will come to us to learn about God. Wars will be abolished and no persons shall know war. We will have Heaven on Earth, a true paradise. The Messianic age is such a beautiful thing to look forward to, that all peoples on Earth should work toward that day.

Are you working to bring peace between you and followers of Islam or will your messiah do that for you?

We are not certain. There is a difference of opinion. Some sages say that the Messiah will create the peace. Others say that everyone on Earth must create peace, and the Messiah will come at this time. In any case, world peace is a definite prophecy that can’t be faked, so when it happens, everyone will know that the Messiah has arrived. There will be no doubt.

yaakov (yaakov)

09-23-2005, 10:02 PM

common_sense

You'd like Christians to "ditch" anything that you claim as relating to Judaism, wouldn't you?

No. The post just seemed contradictory to me. First, someone said that your deity fulfilled all the laws. Then someone else says to follow the 10. I’m just wondering why any laws need to be followed if your god fulfilled everything.

God’s Laws are for everyone, not just Jews.

The religion and practice of Jewish law does not apply to the Christian, but God's Law is immutable and eternal.

I’m not getting it. If God’s Law is eternal, then why do you say it doesn’t apply to Christians?

We follow that law because we worship Him and because it is an outworking of Christ's righteousness in us.

So what’s the point of saying he fulfilled the laws if you still have to comply with them?

common_sense (common_sense)

09-24-2005, 01:00 AM

Yaakov,

If God’s Law is eternal, then why do you say it doesn’t apply to Christians?

I didn't -- I said the Jewish laws don't apply to Christians.

So what’s the point of saying he fulfilled the laws if you still have to comply with them?

He fulfilled them and was sacrificed to make salvation and eternal life available to us. We don't have to comply with them to receive salvation -- we choose to comply with them as an outworking of His Spirit within us once we have received that salvation.

godchild (godchild)

09-24-2005, 03:22 AM

Excellent post, common-sense. So many of the prophesies yaakov speaks of are still to be fulfilled. I think a major difference in Judaism and Christianity is the one is more political.
Jesus fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the Suffering Servant: fulfilled
He will be exalted 52:13 Phil. 2:9
He will be disfigured
by suffering 52:14; 53:2 Mark 15:17,19
He will be widely rejected 53:1-3 John 12:37,38
He will bear our sins and
sorrows 53:4 Rom. 4:25;1 Pet.1:24
He will make a blood
atonement 53:5 Rom. 3:25
He will be our substitute 53:6-8 2 Cor. 5:21
He will voluntarily accept
our guilt and punishment 53:7 John 10:11
He will be buried in a rich
man's tomb 53:9 John 19:38-42
He will justify many from
their sin 53:10-11 Rom. 5:15-19
He will die with trans-
gressors 53:12 Mark 15:27,28

yaakov (yaakov)

09-24-2005, 11:10 PM

Jewish Law is God's Law. It is the exact same thing. The Torah lists God's Law, our Law comes from the Torah. It is the same thing.

common_sense (common_sense)

09-25-2005, 12:03 AM

Jewish law is an external legal system. God's Law deals with the heart.

turtle (turtle)

09-25-2005, 01:14 AM

Yaakov can you keep all the law? If you fail what happens to you? One more question do you believe in circumcision of the heart like commonsense asked of you? In Deutronomy it asked about circumcision of the heart if you need passage i will get it for you.

arron (arron)

09-25-2005, 03:51 AM

yes yaakov.. i would like to know that too

franklin (franklin)

09-25-2005, 04:22 AM

The day after the Sabbath, Christ arose from the dead. Proof to the world that surely He is the Son of God.

Seems like the perfect day for Christians to gather, celebrate and praise God, to me.

schmuel (schmuel)

09-25-2005, 01:12 PM

Hi Folks,

Just to point out .. the question of godchild that started this thread is not a Jewish Law / Christian question.

Many historic Christians understand that the 10 Commandments are God's eternal law, written by His finger on the tablets of stone. You can find this understanding even amongst very good historic writers like Arthur Pink. That the 10 commandments cannot be considered just as a function of the Mosaic covenant, but represent His eternal law for man, and that this is an NT teaching as well as Tanach.

From that understanding, then one can see that the 7th day sabbath is not abrogated. Then it is correct to view various views and see if it is transferred, spiritualized, trivialized, culturized (traditionalized), dissected or subsumed (into Messiah, into the church body, into the millenium)

-- or is the 7th day sabbath simply God's pattern for man, a memorial to the Creation, and a remembrance of our deliverance from babylon, a day of rest and refreshing, of regeneration and turning yet more earnestly to the Lord Jesus Christ, once each 7 days, each shabbat.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

yaakov (yaakov)

09-25-2005, 08:18 PM

common_sense

Jewish law is an external legal system. God's Law deals with the heart.

Incorrect. God's Law are the rules for living. Beliefs are not enough. God's Laws (i.e. Jewish Laws) describe HOW we should live. Respecting the Sabbath and making it holy is just one way we can make our lives holy. Jews follow rules of living as well as have beliefs. Being Jewish goes way beyond beliefs, it also describes how we live. By following God's Laws, we convert the ordinary into the holy. Just another weekend is turned into a holy day, just another meal is turned into a holy event and just another sexual union is turned into a holy event.

yaakov (yaakov)

09-25-2005, 08:21 PM

turtle

Yaakov can you keep all the law? If you fail what happens to you?

Among God's Laws are the Laws of Teshuvah (Atonement). The reason that God gave us these Laws is that He knew that we would make mistakes. God provided a way for us to fix and atone for our mistakes. God did NOT create us to be perfect. Since we are not perfect, God expects us to make mistakes.

There are 613 Laws. Not all of them apply to everyone. Some of them can only be performed in the Temple, so they are temporarily suspended. Some of them are only for farmers, some of them are only for women. I only keep the Laws that apply to me. When (not if) I make mistakes against God, I perform Teshuvah and receive atonement from God for those mistakes. When I make mistakes against people, I make restitution and seek forgiveness for that person. Did yall want me to link the list of the Laws again?

One more question do you believe in circumcision of the heart like commonsense asked of you? In Deutronomy it asked about circumcision of the heart if you need passage i will get it for you.

I believe in circumcision of the penis.

common_sense (common_sense)

09-25-2005, 09:08 PM

I believe in circumcision of the penis.

Speaking of that.......

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-aids25.html

turtle (turtle)

09-25-2005, 09:23 PM

Yaakov look at these verses in your Tanaka and tell me what they mean to you.

Deuteronomy 10:16
(16) Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6
(6) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

godchild (godchild)

09-26-2005, 03:54 PM

yaakov, The laws are good because God made them. The point is, as a people, you have been unable to live by those laws, because you are human with human weaknesses (as we all are). You can atone by prayer. Christians too can atone by prayer. Sin is disobedience to God's law.
If prayers took/takes care of the problem of disobedience, what need do you have for a messiah? (Are you aware the first Christians were Jews?)

yaakov (yaakov)

09-26-2005, 08:26 PM

turtle

Yaakov look at these verses in your Tanakh and tell me what they mean to you.

“Circumcision of the heart” is a term which means no separation between our heart and the Creator. Now to place each of your selected verses in context, we need to examine the verses preceding them.

Deuteronomy 10
12. And now, O Israel, what does the Lord, your God, demand of you? Only to fear the Lord, your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, and to worship the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul,
13. to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes, which I command you this day, for your good.”

16. You shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, therefore, and be no more stiffnecked.

Now in context, we are bring told to love God with all our heart and soul and to keep all of the mitzvot (brit milah) and all of his ordinances (the laws of brit milah), and to open our heart to him and have nothing in between.

Deuteronomy 30
2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,

6. And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life.

This tells us that when we are ready to listen to the Torah with all our heart and soul, and when we are ready to keep His commandments and return to Him, then he will return us from our captivity. Again, mitzvot, brit milah, all of this is to be kept.

Jeremiah 4
1. If you return, O Israel, says the Lord, to Me, you shall return, and if you remove your detestable things from My Presence, you shall not wander.

4. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, O people of Judah and dwellers of Jerusalem, lest My anger go forth and burn with none to quench it because of the evil of your deeds.

This says that if we will stop praying to intermediaries (such as jesus) and return to God by following Torah and mitzvot and do it without wavering, He will accept us. Jeremiah does not say circumcise the heart and not anything else, it says to circumcise yourselves by committing to Judaism, and to take away the foreskin of the heart (that is, love God).

Turtle, what does Genesis 17:10-11 mean to you?
10. This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.
11. And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.

yaakov (yaakov)

09-26-2005, 08:28 PM

godchild

yaakov, The laws are good because God made them.

At last you admit that God’s Laws are good. So back to the original question, why don’t Christians follow them (like Shabbat)?

The point is, as a people, you have been unable to live by those laws, because you are human with human weaknesses (as we all are).

This coming Rosh Hashana, we will mark the year 5766. Are you saying that we are still in the trial period? How many thousands of years are needed to show that we live by God’s Laws?

You can atone by prayer. Christians too can atone by prayer.

Yes. It is the single best way to atone.

Sin is disobedience to God's law.

Sin is simply making mistakes. Some mistakes are bigger than others, but almost all are atone-able using God’s Law of Teshuvah.

God created us to be imperfect. It isn’t a surprise to God that we make them, He expects us to make mistakes. It is how we learn from our mistakes that is important to God.

If prayers took/takes care of the problem of disobedience, what need do you have for a messiah?

You are under the mistaken Christian assumption that the Jewish Messiah has anything to do with atonement. As I have already said, the Messiah will be our political leader and will usher in an Era of Peace for all mankind. The Jewish Messiah will be a man, will not be worshipped, will abide by the Tanakh, and will eventually die.

This Era of Peace will be of benefit to you, so you need to recognize God. Aren’t you aware that Israel is called a nation of priests? It is past time for you to stop debating the priests and start listening to them.

Deuteronomy 30:
8. And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.
9. And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers,
10. when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
11. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.
12. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"
13. Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"
14. Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

No intermediary is needed. God is saying that each person can follow His Laws.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

09-26-2005, 08:53 PM

yaakov

I am not trying to be mean
I am curious of your mindset.

You said that the 10 Commandments are Jewish

Could you document that belief for me please ?

I didn't think that Moses was a Jew!
Do you ?

About Kenites
Moses father was not a Kenite (he lived among them)

Do you know who the Kenites are? Who they are decended from-who they claim to be now? What they have been up to (1Chron 2:55)
Do you know who is pretending to be Jews but are of the SYNAGOG of SATAN ?

I Chronicles 2:55 "And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Schuathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hamath, the father of the house of Rechab."

In this last verse of the chapter, they boldly announce that these families of the scribes, the ones writing what you are reading, are Kenites, of the sons of Cain. "Kenite" means "sons of Cain". They boldly proclaim that they are not of Israel or any of the tribes of Israel, but of the house or family of Rechab, and the land of the Kenites, is Hamath. What did God say about these people when he tested them? Remember that God called these sons of Jonadab into the temple at Jeremiah's time, before they had taken over the priesthood to show Jeremiah how far off the house of Judah had gone from being obedient to His Word. As after the test of giving wine to these entire families, and not one took of the wine.

Jeremiah 35:18 "And Jeremiah [the prophet] said unto the house of the Rechabites, "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Because ye have obeyed the commandments of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:"

To the letter of their law, not God's law but Jonadab's laws and precepts these Kenites were obedient. So God is making a pledge here through the prophet Jeremiah to these Kenites.

Jeremiah 35:19 "Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before Me for ever.' "

God is promising the Kenites that they will always have a leader that will hold them together as a people. Though this is the negative part of God's plan, it is also positive, for God they will take an important part in carrying out the crucifixion of Christ, and in turn, condemn their own father Satan to the fire of hell as recorded in Revelation 20:15. So God did bless them well for their obedience to Satan, and Jonadab their father, even to the point where they are the most successful people on the face of the earth today.

When you and I stay faithful to His Word, and become Biblically literate He will also bless us. God blesses everyone that is faithful and obedient to our heavenly Father, and it is not a matter of what you know from His Word, but how obedient you are to what you do know. God gave us these Scriptures for the sake of giving us an example of what we are to expect in this end generation of this earth age, for the events of the end times are passing us by fast.

The Kenites took over the scribe duties and eventually the Synagog duties. They were the ones who rebuilt the temple, not Jews!

The 10 Commandments are for all, not just Jews
Remember the other 11 tribes ?

God says in prophecy (Old Test) that He will take away the promices made to the Jews and give it to a new people, the same that He scattered.

By the way, Jesus (Yashua, Immanuel)didn't change one jot (tittle)of the Law, He fulfilled it.

The food laws should still be followed, along with all other Laws. Statutes and ordinances have been done away with (for us Christians)

No more sacrifices...
Do you follow the Law ?
Do you sacrifice for your attonement ?

God hates that. He is full of the blood of lambs, he-goats,etc., incense is abominable to Him.

The Lord married Jebus-changing the name to Jerusalem.

Our Father has since divorsed her. (spiritually)

I wish to discourse on this if you wish.

PS do you believe in the Apocrapha ? Just curious
Peace
c

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

09-26-2005, 08:58 PM

turtle (turtle)

09-27-2005, 02:19 AM

Yaakov, I think you should look at the full story of Gensis 17, It is about obedience to God. It is also about the covenent God made with abraham but with out obedience to God there is no covenant.

Where I believe that Jesus is the Mesiash yaakov I am not worshiping an idol or a man, but God.

true22698 (true22698)

09-27-2005, 04:43 AM

the seventh day was given to the jewish people as a sign between them and GOD. i dont find where the gentiles have to keep the sabbath day or saturday as the jews do. we can keep any day holy to GOD. although i do keep sunday as my holy day

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

09-28-2005, 08:48 PM

The apostles who were sent out into the Gentile world gathered together and collected the monies on the first day of the week. They waited until the Hebrew Sabbath ended. That is Sunday, however We as Christians should keep the Sabbath.
We do discover that Jesus Christ became our Sabbath so we are to rest in Him. Any day, every day.
Peace
c

sally (sally)

10-07-2005, 10:30 PM

Gentiles never kept the Sabbath yet they were given salvation. After the gentiles receive that salvation by faith then they are suppose to turn to laws and regulations? This doesn't even make sense. Did you ever notice that whenever Jesus recited the commandments He never one time mentioned the one about keeping the Sabbath, not even once. Do you know why I think this happen? Because He knew HE WAS THE SABBATH. There is a reason why this commandment was never mentioned even one time to keep by Jesus Himself! And Paul says that we are to let no man judge us by sabbaths.

So all that is enough for me. I never kept the sabbath as a gentile and I don't think Jesus expects me too now. Now when He comes back and rules with His rod of iron and wants me too, if at that time He wants me too (even though I may not understand) I would. But I don't know what the days when I'm with Jesus is going to be like so I'm not going to worry about that now.

My three cents worth,

Sally

warr (warr)

10-08-2005, 12:10 AM

rules with his rod of iron-maybe he should beat you over the head with it-take a rest sally-you need it for your mental health I'm usually very understanding but here is lady who thinks women shouldn't preach because everyone (so she says) who was chosen by jesus was male-but you don't want to respect the sabbath-what Bible do you have that you don't understand-my 2 cents worth

turtle (turtle)

10-08-2005, 12:39 AM

Sally what denomination are you indoctrinated by. My background is southern baptist and now currently pentecostal. May it help understanding your words if you share with us a little about you instead of preaching to the choir.

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 03:16 AM

Warr,

Saying that about me being a woman is nothing but a strawman and you know it.

Turtle,

Well at least you left that baptist church (a form of Godliness that denies the power of God) and are at a Pentecostal church (a little bit closer to the truth at least). You need to take another jump and leave the churches altogether now, home churches are best.

You want to know about me. I was raised in the Apostolic Christian Church, a church kind of like the southern baptist in nature. Both were forms of godliness that denied the power of God. Then I married my husband and went to his church, a Mennonite Church. In case you are interested the Apostolic Christian Church and Mennonite Church are both very conservative, no women preaching and women wore head covering. Both customs that I still like and feel are correct and I continue to practice and it's not a religious spirit either. I've just chosen to look into the truth myself and have studied the way the early church really functioned for 25 years now. I left the Mennonite Church after discerning it was filled with demons one Sunday morning 25 years ago. And I wondered why it had demons in it and so many of them at that!!! Let's just say there wasn't just a few of them, but like zillions of them, to many to count. Isn't that what this website is about, a lot, cults and deceptions??? The reason why there are so many cults and people down on churches is that there has been a falling away, i.e. the churches are fallen away now.

And I ain't preaching to the choir, you're listening to the masses. You're just following like a blind little sheep.

Turtles and snakes, ohhhhhh boy!!!!!!!! Do snakes like to eat turtles? Let's just talk about animals, I like animals they're funny.

We have this tree out back and this animal keeps digging a hole by it. It came up into my garden and dug a home right in my garden. This sucker has footprints about 3 inches long.

Sally

turtle (turtle)

10-08-2005, 03:20 AM

No I oppose snakes if you would read you would know that your religion sure has messed up your brain. Take at least time to read the last ten post on any thread and it sure would help you out a bit.

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 03:31 AM

Turtle,

That's just your opinion. My goodness girl you is it your PMS time or something. Zeeesh!!!!

Sally

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 03:33 AM

Turtle,

That's just your opinion and it really doesn't bother me that much.

Sally

turtle (turtle)

10-08-2005, 04:04 AM

Sally I will apologize for this one statement I made "your religion sure has messed up your brain"
Even you did not deserve that. So I humbly apologize to you for that comment. That is even beneath me to say but I did. Even those who know my posting would say that is below the belt for me.

godchild (godchild)

10-08-2005, 04:23 AM

turtle, welcome to the human race! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 04:29 AM

Turtle,

That's OK Turtle, I'm pretty tough but I do have to admit you had me going for just alittle bit there, but only a teeny teeny weeny tiny bit, LOL. I'm a pretty tough old gal here, I really am and I hang in there too cause I love ya so much.

I wouldn't do this unless I loved them as much as what I do.

Sally

arron (arron)

10-08-2005, 04:40 AM

we are not under the law we are under grace.

warr (warr)

10-08-2005, 09:56 PM

very true arron-but taking a day no matter what day just rest your mind,body and spirit is a good thing -it keeps you spiritually strong and grounded-sally the pms thing that's a low blow truly a cowardly thing to say to a lady who doesn't agree with you the strawman quote didn't get it and i'm usually pretty witty-take care warr

arron (arron)

10-08-2005, 10:04 PM

i do take a day, sunday, i know it doesnt matter what day. i was just stating that we are not under the law.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

10-09-2005, 11:58 PM

The original question

Does anyone have clear answers about why most Christians worship on the first day instead of the 7th? Are we refusing to follow the commandment to rest on the 7th day?

We learn in the Word of God that Jesus Christ became the worlds Passover

We learn in the Word of God that Jesus Christ became the worlds Sabbath
We are to rest in Him, not a day of the week.

But there's nothing wrong with sat. or sun.
Every day is better though...

Peace
c

godchild (godchild)

10-10-2005, 06:23 PM

I understand more fully now. Thanks for all the feedback. The following verses have helped me:
Mark 11:27, Matthew 12:3, Mark 2:25, Luke 6:3, 14:5, Col. 2:16, Gal. 4:9-10, Romans 14:5, Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2. Now I want to reread the book of Hebrews.
I have been watching 3ABN, the Three Angels Network, which is Seventh Day Adventist. Though I have a copy of Ellen White's book, I haven't read it. I see a lot of legalism; what you should eat, not wearing jewelry, etc.. The one person I always try to watch is Lyle Albrecht. It is apparent he has a real heart for the Lord. If you ever watch him, you will see what I mean. Maybe you have. I could not get beyond the Sabbath Day teaching. Why such a man could be bound by this teaching? This is a great journey!
(It still bothers me, I have to admit, to think that most Christians worship on a pagan day of worship to the Sun god.)This requires further investigation for me.

mikko (mikko)

10-14-2005, 11:39 PM

Rest on Saturday Go to church on Sunday Hallelujah!

741852 (741852)

11-12-2005, 10:18 PM

Actually just clarify a few things. God did specify a particular day of worship. That day being Saturday, 4th commandment. The Law of was never done away with, there is no scripture to back that statement. The Sabbath is all throughout the Old and New Testament. Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath as well as the deciples. The Bible clearly states what day is the seventh and what day is the first day of the week. Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1-2,9, Luke 24:1, John 20:1,19.
Gods law will exist always. Matthew 5:17,18

Christs death did not make the law of none effect; it did not slay the law, lessen its holy claims; nor did it detract from its sacred diginity. The death of Christ proclaimed the justice of His Father's law in punishing the transgressor, in that He consented to suffer the penalty of the law Himself, in order to save fallen man from its curse. The death of God's beloved Son on the cross, shows the immutability of the law of God. His death magnifies the law amd makes it honorable, and gives evidence to man of its changeless character. The death of Christ justifies the claims of the law.

As far as who changed the Sabbath to Suday, the answer to that question is the Catholic church. You can call any Catholic priest and they will be happy to tell you that Christians are following the beliefs of the Catholic church in keeping Sunday, because they are the ones who established that day, not God. They claim that the pope as all authority to change God's laws. There are plenty of references to this fact if you want them.

mikko (mikko)

11-13-2005, 07:28 PM

sabbath a day of rest.
sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath.
cults usually exalt a work or gift over another and make it thier essential pillar.
so the question is ; Do YOU REST on the Sabbath?
do you go to the store ,causing someone else to work ? then you're a sabbath breaker ..do you go out to eat on the sabbath ? then you're a sabbath breaker.
the bottom line is this we ALL broke ALL Ten of the commandments . those commandments reveal our sinfulness and need of the savior and lord Jesus ,the law does its work only to show us helpless and sends us to the cross of Jesus Christ. the law is a schoolmaster.

john_parker (john_parker)

12-26-2005, 08:01 AM

Does anyone have clear answers about why most Christians worship on the first day instead of the 7th?

Are we refusing to follow the commandment to rest on the 7th day?

Sabbath means rest
and Jesus is our rest http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Every Day is a good Day, you know why? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

Because Jesus IS the Living Word. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

We get plugged-into God by His Holy Anointed Savior Jesus Christ now

So everyday Jesus is in You isA Holy Day. with the ground around you,,, ,, Holy Groud (if) you let it be for it is true.

Going to Church wont save you,
only Jesus was and still is perfect it is Christ that saves.

Beside, the church is mobile, i.e. you are the church, (part of) the body of Christ

Dont get me wrong,
I like most churches. it is just that I have come to know my maker better one-on-one in private.

There are many things I would like to share with others but I cannot because no one really believes I have seen GOD and spoken to him, as well as walked with Him and talked and struggled with Him for many long hours.

God is my very best friend as well as my maker. When in trouble I call out to Him and He is there with me.

He sort of taught me this after He saved me from certain Death by the hand of a very scarey looking warrior giant entity? bad angel? which appeared after lightning had struck near me, about 10 feet over my head. I was laying there with my neck scrteched out and suddenly someone touched my hand, Jesus touched my hand

and indeed,
by the power of the Holy Spirit of Christ The Holy Anointed Savior was with me and I was safe, praise God! .

I was very relieved to say the least!

True story, honest http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

-

If you be in Christ then Jesus is never further from you than your own right hand.

Read His Word He will come to you

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

arron (arron)

12-26-2005, 03:27 PM

the BIBLE apeaks of many sabbaths. we have entered into the sabbath that JESUS spoke of. i am not saved by keeping the sabbath day. if any one want to keep it fine but i will keep the day on which JESUS rosethe first day of the week

godchild (godchild)

12-26-2005, 04:27 PM

John, You shoot your credibility when you say you have seen God. No man can see God and live.

redpurusha (redpurusha)

12-27-2005, 02:43 AM

godchild,

Yeh, no one is the same person after such an experience, his old self is dead. Moses, for example, after seeing God face to face on top of the mountain, came down looking and acting as a completely new person.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." -Matthew 5:8

"Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator." -Col 3

"Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules" -Col 2:20

"you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." -Col 3:3

john_parker (john_parker)

12-27-2005, 03:54 AM

No man can see God and live.

-

DEAR ONE, http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

I think you got your gods mixed up http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

Your Problem is the very same problem I used to have, I was always under the exact same impression. And I thought I would surly die if I looked upon Him BUT after asking me He ordered me to look up at Him.

Our GOD is the God of the living not the dead. He IS THE LIFE SOURSE!

I didnt go looking for God to see Him (I knew He existed) He found me and came to me and He looks just like Jesus Christ.

Christ Jesus is inside of me as I am in Him. I fear no enemy of God including THE Adversary Satan lucifer the Devil

Adam and Eve saw God, He didnt ZAP them (lol)

Abraham saw God and had lunch with Him

Jacob saw God and wrestled with Him

Moses saw God and spent two 40-day stints with Him.

Thousands Saw God when Christ came to save the lost and at least 500 saw God after He died on the cross and resurrected (He is the resurrection and the life)

Paul saw God and wrote much of the New Testament. He even went to Heaven like John did into the future and saw the Last day The Lords Day of Salvation.

AND There are indeed many that have seen and do see Him and have heard Him even to this very Day, it is just that you are not hearing about it

We must never forget that Christ Jesus can come to us today, yes, we can and do mansion with Him even today Spiritually and (for the most part) invisibly. It is in His Second Advent that Jesus Christ comes as KING of kings and LORD of lords

in ALL His Glory

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

godchild (godchild)

12-27-2005, 06:01 PM

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father; He has declared Him.

John 6:46 (Words of Jesus) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. (John 7:28) Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, "You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, But He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent me.
1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, becaise He has given us of His Spirit.

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Collosians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God.

1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God alone who is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever.

Exodus 33:18- (Moses said)"And he said, please show me your glory." Then He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." But He said, "You cannot see my face; for no man shall see me and live." And the Lord said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand, and you shall see My back; but my face shall not be seen."

God appeared to Moses in a cloud. Exodus 34:5.

'for they will see God'. Will is not present-tense. We see the glory of God in His creation, in His mercy, in His love and compassion, in His answering our prayers.

Jesus had a warning for those claiming they see God. He said, "If they say He is in the desert, do not go." We are warned that satan can appear as an angel of light. Beware of false prophets. If a man teaches what the Bible has not, he is a false prophet.

am2 (am2)

12-27-2005, 06:44 PM

No one knows when exactly was the first day or the 7th.

john_parker (john_parker)

12-27-2005, 09:20 PM

godchild,

Are you Jewish ? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

You sure twist scripture like one of those Jewish scripture lawyers that had Jesus crucified

You also put doubt in the power of God your maker

FOLKS

If you listen to her, you never know or see God before He returns

And after He returns (physically) He will say He never knew you

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

john_parker (john_parker)

12-27-2005, 09:28 PM

Paul saw GOD

I guess according to godchild Paul was a false prophet and we got to throw out the New Testament about Jesus Christ

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

redpurusha (redpurusha)

12-28-2005, 01:51 AM

Dear godchild,

Your name is apt because you too, being a child of God, will one day, see God face to face.

bless you

arron (arron)

12-28-2005, 04:46 AM

may i remind you .. mr parker that not only did the jews crucify JESUS but the roman soldiers and the rest of the world crucifies HIM. we are all guilty of that sin.

john_parker (john_parker)

12-28-2005, 05:36 AM

But they (THE JEWS) cried out CAESAR is our King

Jhn 19:15 But they cried out, Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

The sellouts killed their own Messiah!

I am guilty of NOTHING by repenting asking the Father forgivness by Jesus

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

arron (arron)

12-28-2005, 02:35 PM

i pray that you are forgiven although i doubt it as you bring froth no proof. you are denying THE LORDS own people whom HE loves.

godchild (godchild)

12-28-2005, 02:59 PM

It is because of God's glory (light) that we can not look on Him. We are of flesh and blood. Our eyes were not made to stare into, for example, the sun on a summer day because our eyes would be damaged. Men wear protective glasses when they use a welder. Why? Because if they looked into the arc their eyes would be damaged. When Jesus comes again in all His glory, He will come 'in the clouds'. As God, His glory (light) is so powerful, until we are 'changed in the twinkling of an eye' our mortal eyes will be protected by the clouds. Jesus is God. God BECAME man so that He would suffer death (as a man would), with all the pain and sorrow a man would, as a propiation for our sins. Before Jesus BECAME man, He was invisible. We know that because God is invisible. Paul saw the man Jesus. It was by the power of the Holy Spirit communing with Paul's spirit that confirmed for him that Jesus is God, the Messiah (meaning God with us).
The Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah because He was of lowly birth. They expected a King, with all the visible accouterments of a king. Jesus ate and walked, and slept with the poor. Kings don't do that. They could not see with Spiritual eyes. "We look through a glass darkly. But we will see clearly when He comes and we are changed." paraphrased.
I am not saying you did not feel something touch you and you may have seen an angel of God. Angels can appear as men. The Bible tells us if a person comes to our door asking for food, feed him because we may be entertaining angels unaware. This does not mean angels are men. They can 'appear as men', to do God's work.
Today, the Holy Spirit (spirit, invisible) lives in believers to guide us. We don't have a physical being in us. He communes with our spirit. Our spirit isn't physical, our soul is not physical. He dwells in our physical hearts and physical minds. If He were physical, then we could physically take Him out. We can't because He is in control, not us. He works by God's will, not ours.
There have been many instances where an angel appearing as a man has come and helped a person. Then they leave and are never 'seen' again.
Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. God is God. God is not greater than Jesus. They are coequal, but separate in purpose.
We are told God's ways are not our ways. We need to stop trying to make God's ways fit ours!

godchild (godchild)

12-28-2005, 03:05 PM

Can't you see the danger of thinking "I have seen God". This makes God a man. Any man can try to counterfeit God. Men do try. And people follow them, instead of God. This is the work of satan, it is the lie the Lord warns us of.

redpurusha (redpurusha)

12-29-2005, 12:37 AM

godchild,

Yes, "Angels can appear as men" anyone who has seen "Saved by an Angel" will get an idea of this blessing. You make some good analogies with not able to see the light of God with our physical eyes. But you don't recognize the existence of a spiritual eye everyone possesses. Very few develop it or know how to use it. Jesus spoke of it when he said "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light." Mat 6:22

For man doing this on his own, this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.
So with the grace of God, we as children of His, are privleged to see Him face to face at a time He decides.

The ultimate evolution of man is divinity, that is his highest potential. Saints throughout history have shown that seeing God is a reality, and that is something we should strive for. I have not seen God, but have felt his presence many times.

If man can deny himself (his false self, ego or son of man), he will truly know himself (his true self, image of God, son of God), just as Jesus did).

Jesus showed the way.

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." -Luke 17:33

godchild (godchild)

12-29-2005, 04:59 AM

red, I understand what you are saying. John 14:19 Jesus told the disciples they would see Him spiritually. But go on and look at what Paul says in 1 Cor. 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come,then that which is in part will be done away.
verse 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but thenI shall know just as I am known.
John 3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.} And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
And finally, Revelation 21:1- But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. (As you know, this is speaking of John's vision of heaven.)
We will serve Him. We will not be little gods! He will be our King and our Lord.
I have felt His presence and His touch on my skin. I do not believe I will see Him face to face until that great day.
I will always take the Word of God and the guidance of His Holy Spirit over any man's interpretation.

john_parker (john_parker)

12-29-2005, 05:10 AM

Thats right, get your ideas from Hollywood

Hollywood, Which by the way,
is controlled by those that reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior - THE JEWS ! !!!

GOD rejects ALL those that reject His only begotten Son Jesus Christ

I do not care what they call themselves, IF you reject Christ you are HELLBOUND! period, end of conversation

Besises all that,
THOSE that call themselves Jews are not Jews

You have been conned by Satans kids and you love them as you are indeed are headed for hell.

Kiss your Father Satan lucifer while you are walking into the fires of hell with him you fools

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

godchild (godchild)

12-29-2005, 06:09 PM

john, I think you are either a skinhead or a ku klux clansman. If I were a Jew, I would plainly say so. You're disgusting, pathetic, and ignorant. Your insults can harm no one but yourself. Enjoy them while you can.

john_parker (john_parker)

12-29-2005, 08:06 PM

No sorry to disappoint you but I am not a skin head
You cannot categorize me into one of your mindless little slots

But I sense you will continue to try

I guess that is what I should expect from someone that thinks the
Old Testament is the Talmud (lol)

It shows me all your thoughts (and religion) are formed by a
Jewish controlled media.

Anyone with half a brain knows darn well that Hollywood is controlled by the big-shots in New York,,, ,

Jewish big-shots that reject Christ

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

john_parker (john_parker)

12-29-2005, 08:16 PM

And from your veiled threats I see you are not too far removed from those that crucified Jesus

The Apple doesnt fall too far from the
tree, does it ?

PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

john_parker (john_parker)

12-29-2005, 08:19 PM

Godchild is just another Jesus killer that seeks to kill those in Christ

steelsword (steelsword)

12-29-2005, 08:28 PM

Amen to that Gc.

godchild (godchild)

12-29-2005, 10:44 PM

Thanks steel, and nice to hear from you. John is here to propogate rascism and has made no comment on any thread worth commenting on any longer.
Veiled threats? He doesn't realize he is his own worst enemy, I suppose. God help him.
He sounds so much like trentwoodard. It wouldn't surprise me in the least since that type of guttersnipe prefers to come crawling under the door instead of standing like a man.

bear (bear)

12-30-2005, 01:04 AM

1. The Sabbath is a type of our salvation in Jesus.

2. The Law was fulfilled in Jesus.

The Law consisted of 613 laws, not just the ten commandments. We are not under the TC today as law. In fact, Jesus summed up the TC by telling us to:

- Love God
- Love our neighbor as our self.

This goes along with the original division of the TC:

- 1-4 = Duties toward God
- 5-10 = Duties toward others.

redpurusha (redpurusha)

12-30-2005, 02:09 AM

bear, Amen to that.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Galatians 3:28

(Message edited by redpurusha on December 29, 2005)

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-09-2006, 04:16 PM

I just found this thread, hope some of you are still following it this year, because I would like to renew this discussion, please.

Concerning the 10 commandments: There is a reason God wrote them in stone with His finger! It is because even though there was a change made in the law (Heb. 7:12), the 10 commandments were not part of that change, and are transcendent for every age and generation, including the Fourth Commandment about the Sabbath. The only thing that has changed is the mandatory death penalty, which all 10 commandments carried and which Christ took upon Himself for us.

And yes, Gentiles did keep the Sabbath in the New Testament: Acts 13:42, 44 -- And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath... And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Heb. 4:9, "There remaineth therefore a Sabbatismos to the people of God."

The Sabbath existed even before the Law, all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Check out in Ex. 16 how God rebuked them for not keeping it even before the law was given four chapters later in Ex. 20!

And Sunday is definitely NOT a holy day -- Read Genesis 1:5, the first thing recorded in the Bible is work done on Sunday!

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-09-2006, 04:19 PM

(Part 2)
Neither did Jesus rise on the first day of the week, that was just when he made his appearances. He had already risen late on the Sabbath, and was gone long before the women ever reached the empty tomb. He was in the grave 3 days & 3 nights (Mat. 12:40), just as he said. But the Catholicized church world makes him into a liar by saying he died on Good Friday & rose on Easter Sunday, which is nothing but religious gobbledygook. God hates the whore church system, and will destroy it fully and finally in Rev. 17!

In addition, the New Testament symbol of Christ's resurrection is not one of the seven days of the week anyway, but it is water baptism (Romans 6:4).

Here is something else that is very interesting to me: God's day has always been the Sabbath, but only 20 to 30 million people observe it worldwide, less than than half of 1% of mankind. But the day before the Sabbath (Friday) is observed by over 1 BILLION Muslims. And the day after the Sabbath (Sunday) is observed by over 1 BILLION Catholicized Christians. So, what's wrong with this picture? Rev. 12:9 says that Satan deceives the whole world.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-10-2006, 03:16 AM

Jesus became our Passover, we rest in Him. not in a day of the week.
We are to keep the Commandments, and this one is of course included. But Christ became our rest. I worship Him everyday and choose not to set aside one day but dedicate all days to Him.

If I need food on Sunday, or Saturday then I buy food. The sabbath was made For man and not the other way around.

The Law didn't change it was fulfilled.
The day didn't change, but the rest is in Christ (any day of the week)

Peace in His name
c

arron (arron)

02-10-2006, 03:29 AM

we do not keep the sabbathe law as it refers solely to the isrealites.// i worship on sunday the first day of the week on which JESUS AROSE FROM THE DEAD. there are some who do not believe tis but i do. i of course worship each day of the week when ever i feel the urge to do so. we are not bound by any sabbath law. it was made for us not us for it.

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-10-2006, 03:43 PM

God has made a memorial to all of his wonderful works (Ps. 111:4). God blessed and sanctified the Sabbath, and made it the memorial of His creation! (Gen. 2:2-4). Without that memorial, mankind succumbs to secular, atheistic humanism and unbelief (Hebrews 4:4-11). That is why Roman Catholicism has endorsed evolution, because they have rejected and tried to change the only thing God says is the memorial of His creation! They even executed sabbatarians during the Dark Ages.

The Sabbath is NOT Jewish!! God made it for mankind 2000 years before the first Israelite was born. Adam & Eve kept the Sabbath. Were Adam & Eve Jewish? Of course not.

Tell me, Arron: If the Sabbath was made for you, as you say God did, then why do you reject it and keep a different day?? The fourth commandment was not changed at Calvary, the resurrection, or at any other time. Read Isaiah 56:1-6 & 66:23, and you will see that God made the Sabbath for the Gentiles too. Isa. 56:2, "Blessed is the man... that keepeth the Sabbath"!

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-10-2006, 10:35 PM

ezekiel_37: Jesus became our Passover, we rest in Him. not in a day of the week.

arron: we do not keep the sabbathe law

leftin1991 The Sabbath is NOT Jewish!!

Regardless of your statement leftin1991, both these Christians agree that the Jews are the only ones who keep the Sabbath.

godchild (godchild)

02-10-2006, 11:07 PM

I tend to agree with leftin91.

I was speaking to my neighbor recently. He said he had been to several of the churches in our area but had not found one he felt the Holy Spirit in. I asked, "You still feel the Holy Spirit in you, don't you?" He said yes. He mentioned that he had gone to the Seventh Day Adventist Church once. Then he asked, "Why do they have to stress the Saturday Sabbath Day." It made me stop and think for a minute, before replying, "But all the other churches insist on going Sunday." (In other words, if the reasoning is as those who worship Sunday, what many have said here, what's the difference? Why don't most churches have their worship services on Tuesday, for example.) I have heard it said the mark of the beast is not on our forehead, but in our mind. And there is a verse in Daniel, I believe; it's a warning about those who change days and times. Could this be in reference to the fact that the Catholic church changed the day of worship?) I'm not trying to turn this into an adventist thread. I just find peoples reasoning curious sometimes.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-11-2006, 12:47 PM

I keep the Sabbath in the form of worship in Christ every day and not 1 day a week, and the Sabbath was made for man which at the time Israel consisted of 12 tribes, 1 of which is called Judah. The others are still around albeit they do not know who they are.

I disagree with your statement that only Jews keep the Sabbath, infact there are Christian sects that DO follow Saturday as their Sabbath.

Since Christ became our Sabbath, I think a lot of Christians keep the Sabbath as well, no matter what day they keep.

godchild (godchild)

02-11-2006, 08:04 PM

arron, can you answer me this. You say you do not keep the sabbath law. Why do you keep the Sunday law? Why do you keep a 'law' made by men? Jesus never said not to worship on the Sabbath, He only said that you can do miracles, healing, etc. on the Sabbath. He didn't change the day, Which the Father established FOREVER. He never said to go and worship on Sunday. Pagans worship the sun. Sun, Sunday. Who is behind this?

For everyone who attends a Christian church but do not believe in an established day for us, do you go on a specified day to worship together?

arron (arron)

02-11-2006, 09:39 PM

i do not keep sunday as a law. there is no law that i have to keep. i am free by THE BLOOD OF JESUS. i am saved , not by keeping the law but but i do keep that that is written in my heart to do for GOD. i do not worship the sun. yes i do go on a spescified day of worship. as far as that goes i could go on any day i desired to do so. i use sunday the first day of the week because that is the day CHRIST arose on,

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-12-2006, 06:10 AM

free will arron,.

Keepe the day you want. as long as you keep one.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-12-2006, 06:10 AM

free will arron,.

Keep the day you want. as long as you keep one.

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-12-2006, 06:10 PM

The resurrection of Christ was NOT on Sunday! Harmonize the four gospel records, and you will see that this obviously could not be true. "Good Friday" and "Easter Sunday" are LIES. Jesus was crucified "in the midst of the week" (Dan. 9:27). The middle day of the week is Wednesday. He was placed in the tomb just before sunset on Wednesday, and remained in the tomb "three days AND three nights" (Mat. 12:40). He arose 72 hours later, just before sunset on the Sabbath Day. His appearances to the disciples the following day were a type of the wavesheaf offering of Leviticus 23:11.

godchild (godchild)

02-12-2006, 07:11 PM

Thank you, left, for your informative post.

I goes against the grain, somehow, to think that we should change the Sabbath Day, when the Lord, while telling us to love one another (serve) daily, did not say to stop the day chosen by God, as evidence of His creation, to rest and worship Him. He did not tell us to ignore or stop living by the Ten Commandments.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-12-2006, 07:54 PM

"Good Friday" and "Easter Sunday" are LIES. Jesus was crucified "in the midst of the week" (Dan. 9:27). The middle day of the week is Wednesday. He was placed in the tomb just before sunset on Wednesday, and remained in the tomb "three days AND three nights" (Mat. 12:40). He arose 72 hours later, just before sunset on the Sabbath Day.

I agree with you leftin1991 about the confusion to the dates as well as the false belief in easter, however wasn't the sabbath over as Mary and Mary went to the tomb?
I believe they went to the tomb after the sabbath, rushing to get their as early as was permitted by Sabbath custom. Now it is a fact that the Passover became the Sabbath no matter what day of the week it fell on.

Peace
c

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-14-2006, 04:17 AM

Remember...........
The Pope would "think" to change times and laws.
Saturday has always been the Sabbath Day.
Where I have messed up is this......
Knowing that all these churches are basically bogus with bogus doctrines from the evil men who started them; I am saying so.
So I then learned what was the proper Sabbath, Holy Days, Way to God etc..........
I then was trying to build up my own righteousness by having to adhere to these special days...or else.....
Even after I recieved the Holy Spirit by obeying no laws whatsoever.
All of those adhering and belonging to these churches which eminatted from the harlot, Luther etc....are totally awry with totally improper holy days, sacraments, wafer eating and the like, as they are adhering to them to build up there own righteousness without submitting to God's righteousness.
They are trying to get their OWN righteousness by following totally unbiblical sacraments and adherences from the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees.
I was trying to get my OWN righteousness by following the Biblical Days set apart by God.
This then equates to = Fallen from grace!
If we have recieved the Holy Spirit we need to live as free Son's and Daughters.
Free from the law and its requirements.
Free to enjoy family membership.
So we are free to not look at the law, nor to obey it.
We are not free to be participating in false sacraments, unholy days, and celebrating sunday as a worship day to God.
These are the deeds of the Nicolations, which God hates!
Got it?

godchild (godchild)

02-14-2006, 06:00 AM

Got it, I think. Thanks again. I do not like legalism. The scribes and the pharisees were guilty of this. They even judged Jesus because of their carnal adherence to the law, while all the time building themselves and their pocketbooks up. Similar to many organized churches today. If the moneychangers made the Lord angry enough to destroy the temple and to turn over the counting tables, why haven't people learned the lesson that we should not follow men or churches that do.
We need to worship in spirit (not carnal) and truth (not the lies of men).

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-15-2006, 07:18 PM

Godchild..........
The only issue's I am having about adhering to the 10 Commandments or not is this:
1) Paul makes it clear that we are not to live by law obeyment but in his grace. Because if we are relying on law obeyment we are out of his grace. Fallen from grace.
OK...I think you and I both understand why this is?
But........
Jesus tells us that the one who truely loves him will keep his commandments.
Then what commandments is he talking about?
The 2 in the New Testament or the 10 in the Old, or both?
He is saying commandments and not his teachings. So then which commandments?
Another thing to ponder is if the 10 Commandments did not matter then why did Mr. 666 and his church change them?
The changed all the wordings but they took out the commandment on idols and severly changed the Sabbath one. They focused on these 2.
Knowing that we are not under law but grace; does it matter if we keep the Saturday Sabbath or not?
Is not the 10 Commandments part of the old law?
Were the whole commandments then summed up into the 2 New ones, to be adhered to?
What do you think?

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-15-2006, 07:26 PM

Another thought:
Jesus told the rich man that to enter into life, keep the commandments, which was an obvious reference to the 10 Commandments.
Why did'nt he say: To enter into life, keep the whole Mosaic Law, or keep your faith in me, or, keep these 2 commandments, or anything else?
This is a thorny issue, eh?

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-15-2006, 07:45 PM

I think Eziekel says it best...up above...
Jesus is our Sabbath.
Let's say that we are now in eternity...
There is not going to be a Sabbath, is there?
No!
I most highly doubt that there will be days of the week and the like, including time.
I believe that the Bible explains that Jesus took both the law and faith into one, which broke down the wall between Jew and Gentile.
This emnity is actually gone.
A problem only exist's because the bloodline Jews, as a majority cannot understand this fact.
And it seems us too!
So, as of now, I will simply obey the 2 New Commandments.
If I am wrong, in not adhering to the 1st 10, I hope that God convicts me in this matter, as I am still wishy washy on the need to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-15-2006, 07:50 PM

Last thought........
I think in Eziekiel we are told that once Jesus returns that the feast of tabernacles must be observed?
If this is the case then maybe he wants us to be obeying his set apart holy days and sabbath?
Am I reading this right?

godchild (godchild)

02-15-2006, 08:47 PM

This is my opinion. There were many, many commandments given to the Jews besides the 10. They were commanded to keep many holy days, for example. When the commandments are spoken of in the way we are discussing them, they have to include all of the laws that the Jews followed. I believe Jesus was saying we don't need all those laws. The law is fulfilled (He said, I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.) by loving one another. Look at the 10 commandments. What do they say.

We need to read all the verses and not just use the 1 thru 10 list. The verses explain why we follow the commandments.

And God spake all these words, "saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (This is the reason we follow the first commandment.)
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. And the next, which is: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Next, thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (now the reason for the commandment) for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
to be cont.

justlittleoleme (justlittleoleme)

02-15-2006, 08:50 PM

Hi there Godchild.. Log onto the other cult website please. I need to chat with you about our SC folks..

godchild (godchild)

02-15-2006, 09:03 PM

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; (why?) for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Now the next commandment that you will notice God gave a great deal of attention to (as for the reasons).
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Why? Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
(let me stop here for a second. Look at all these reasons. It does not say that healing is work. Healing is a love gesture, not a labor one. But the scribes were so busy looking for anything to say or hold against Jesus they called it work. They had twisted the laws (commandments) and turned them into a way for men to judge on another and build themselves up in the process.)
Verse eleven is wonderful. It asks us to honor Him. Please, He says. You can go work, whatever, on all but one day. I am asking for one day for you to rest and remember me.
11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
(Did He bless it and hallow it for Himself, or for us? It's a day we don't have to go to work, we can rest, think on Him, show love to one another, etc.) Did He bless and hallow any other day?
Next, Honor thy father and thy mother. (why?) that thy days may be long upon the land whicb the Lord thy God giveth thee.
Next, thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shall not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor.
The next all lead to this one (All these things happen because men do the next one)
Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's house, though shalt not covet they neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his •••, nor anything that is thy neighbors.
(Why?) Because it will cause you to do the sins mentioned in the previous four).

godchild (godchild)

02-15-2006, 09:07 PM

Now what did Jesus say. He didn't say dump all those commandments. What He said was, The greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all thy heart, thy mind, and thy soul. (Isn't this a culmination of the first commandments. It doesn't exclude them, it defines them. Next, He said, Love one another as thyself. (Same conclusion). If we do this it defines the rest of the commandments. It doesn't exclude them. It is the culmination of them.
He wants us to do everything, to think every thought, out of love of God, and love of each other. Isn't that really what God was asking the Israelites to do, in effect?
Hope this makes sense.

godchild (godchild)

02-15-2006, 09:23 PM

justlittleolme, do you mean a thread at factnet, or at the cultbuster website. I went there but didn't find anything new. I will check here though. Be happy to discuss with you here or there.

godchild (godchild)

02-15-2006, 10:06 PM

I did have a personal at the other website. If that was you, justlit, I left a response there. Have a good one, now and forever.

godchild (godchild)

02-15-2006, 11:12 PM

Jesus said, "I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it."

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-16-2006, 02:10 AM

In 1998 I wrote a tract entitled, "The Sabbath, a Memorial to the Creator," and it is posted on the website of the Bible Sabbath Association: http://www.biblesabbath.org/sabbathmemorial.html
The tract is still in print, and free copies are available either from myself or from the BSA. It connects the Catholic church's endorsement of evolution with their rejection of the Bible Sabbath. Please take the time to check it out!

godchild (godchild)

02-16-2006, 02:39 AM

Thanks, left. I will check this out.

godchild (godchild)

02-16-2006, 02:59 AM

I'm going to copy your page. I love the poem! Fantastic. The scripture references will be a great help. Would you share the poem here? Can I share it on another site?

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-16-2006, 03:24 PM

Certainly, that would be just great! Posting that poem here is a great idea, I will do that right now. Neither the tract nor the poem are copyrighted. Thanks for the compliment. The poem is not original, it is actually over 150 years old! It was written in 1851 by Roswell Fenner Cottrell.

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-16-2006, 03:34 PM

"IT'S JEWISH"

When we present God's holy law,
And arguments from scripture draw,
Objectors say, to pick a flaw,
'It's Jewish'.

Though at the first Jehovah blessed
And sanctified His day of rest,
The same belief is still expressed,
'It's Jewish'.

Though with the world this rest began,
And thence through all Scriptures ran,
And Jesus said 'twas made for man' -
'It's Jewish'.

Though not with Jewish rites, which passed,
But with the moral law 'twas classed,
Which must exist while time shall last, 'It's Jewish'.

If from the Bible we present
The Sabbath's meaning and intent,
This answers every argument - 'It's Jewish'.

Though the disciples, Luke and Paul,
Continue still this rest to call
The 'Sabbath day', this answers all,
'It's Jewish'.

The gospel teacher's plain expression,
That "Sin is of the law transgression,"
Seems not to make the least impression -
'It's Jewish'.

They love the rest of man's invention,
But if Jehovah's day we mention,
This puts an end to all contention,
'It's Jewish'.

O ye who thus God's day abuse,
Simply because 'twas kept by Jews,
The Saviour, too, you must refuse,
'He's Jewish'.

The Scriptures, then, we may expect
For the same reason you'll reject;
For if you will but recollect,
'They're Jewish'.

Thus the apostles, too, must fall;
For Andrew, Peter, James, and Paul,
Thomas, Matthew, John, and all
'Were Jewish'.

So to your helpless state resign
Yourself in wretchedness to pine;
Salvation, surely you'll decline,
'It's Jewish'.

-- Roswell Fenner Cottrell, 1851

http://www.biblesabbath.org/sabbathmemorial.html

godchild (godchild)

02-16-2006, 06:06 PM

Beautiful words, wonderful words, wonderful words of life. Thank you!

I pray that all will share this poem with everyone you know. It's a treasure.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-16-2006, 07:14 PM

Is'nt it notable that the Pope and his church and Luther along with most of the reformers either hated, called for the destruction of, or murdered Jews because that is who they were?
I think that this fact alone proves who they were really working for, and it is obviously not the God of Israel!

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-16-2006, 07:25 PM

Here is a question that I request that you answer me, so that I can make shure I am doing right and not disobeying.
The Saturday Sabbath.
1) Should we be adhering to it, as to prove our allegiance, because we have to, as it is a commandment, or ignore it altogether, as it is Old Testament Law?
2) Is the 10 Commandments Old Testament Law, or is it diffrent because God himself wroye them down?
3) Should we be adhering to his other set aside Holy Days too, as to prove our alliegance, because we should, or ignore it altogether, as it was part of Old Testament Law?

............I wonder if any of you have information on when and why these days stopped being adhered too, as it is obvious that the Disciples still observed these set apart days long after Jesus left.
I know it probably was between 70-300 ad, as this is when apostate Christianity got its foothold by means of Rome and her apostate church.
Any facts to share on this issue...please!

godchild (godchild)

02-16-2006, 10:22 PM

Those are a lot of deep questions. I sure don't have all the answers. I will say this. A great teacher once said, "As goes the Sabbath, so goes the nation." If we want to follow God, what did Jesus do? He kept the Sabbath as did the apostles. The Bible says God blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.
We know that God used His finger to write in stone the Ten Commandments. What does it mean to "be written in stone"?
The issue is not the day you worship. It's who you choose to follow.
Now I want to take some time to study further on this. I don't know if this helps you or not.

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-17-2006, 03:13 PM

"What God Said to Remember, but the Whole World Forgot" -- The Sabbath is the longest commandment of the 10, and is the only one for which God has given the reason why it is to be remembered and kept, because of it its deep significance to humanity to remember God as the Creator of the world, and to tell us that He desires for us to pause weekly to acknowledge Him in that way. The seven annual feast days are rich in typical meaning of God's plan of redemption for mankind, past, present and future, and certainly should not be forgotten or ignored either! Each one contains a beautiful message which points to the person and work of Christ.

As the Sabbath is the template for the festivals of the LORD, so is Sunday the template for the pagan holidays of Roman Catholicism. Sunday, Chr-stmas, Easter, etc. are man-made substitutes for the genuine.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-17-2006, 07:36 PM

Leftin........
Where I am finding myself in a totally quandry on this issue is this:
If I am trying to be right by keeping this law, should I not have to keep the whole law, as we cannot pick and choose?
If I am trying to keep the Sabbath law, then shouldnt I then try to keep the rest of the law?
Also...I know when I recieved the Holy Spirit.
Prior too and at the time I was saved, I was obeying none of these laws. So am I now more or less saved if I obey them now?
I mean I did not have to obey them to recieve salvation, so why the need to do it after?
Will I be any more righteous by doing so?
Did Abraham obey the Sabbath?..I think this is key as we are in his covenant and not Moses's.
Anyone on the Abraham question?
I mean, I really think that this is the full answer!

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-17-2006, 07:52 PM

Because...It is the one whom is residing in us that causes us to not sin.
The one that is in us was given because we truely wanted to get out of our sin bondage.
So...the Spirit that is in us, I think, is how the FULL LAW IS ACTUALLY FULLFILLED BY US.
Because...we are the actuall fullfillment of the law.
And the Spirit that dwells in us is allowing us to keep the law in Spirit and not by fleshly adherences, as it is keeping us in line by obeying the fullfillment of the law, which is simply to Love God with all our heart, and to love others as ourselves.
Is'nt this how we are establishing the law of God?
By Spirit and not fleshly adherences which produce nothingness.
What Spiritual goodness is being produced by us making certain that we do nothing on Saturdays?
I think that is why the little horn of Daniel, Mr.666, and the man of lawlessness, which is the same:The seat of the Pope...Made his own laws.
Because those adhering to them are totally lost as they have no idea that obeying them by fleshly adherence cannot make them right by God, as they are trying to become right by the flesh and not Spirit.
Plus, none of the adhereces were ever even given by God.
So they are adhering to ordaninces that are not God's to get right with God by adhering to them. Doubly lost!
Do you know what I mean.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-17-2006, 09:59 PM

Did Abraham obey the Sabbath?..I think this is key as we are in his covenant and not Moses's.
Anyone on the Abraham question?

I must have missed it. When did Abraham get the 10 Commandments?

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-18-2006, 02:46 AM

Yaakov.....
It is a question and an answer, at the same time.
How was Abraham considered eligable to become a Son of God?
By faith!
That is it, nothing more, nothing less.
The work of God and not the work of man will decide the fate of all.
If Adam and Eve would have just put some faith in what God told them in the first place.........................

rueben (rueben)

02-18-2006, 02:52 AM

yaakov2,

I think you must know by now that the man you’re trying to have a 'rational' discourse with is a complete...........well, (trying to tone it down). Is a confused possibly mentally challenged loon.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-18-2006, 02:56 AM

Faith..........
You can't see it.
You can't touch it.
And yet it is there.
No one can steal it from you, and
It's safe keeping is guaranteed.
The unseen is what shall save you!

So if you see what is saving you,
It is not saving you at all!

rueben (rueben)

02-18-2006, 03:06 AM

to thekingsent1_again;

The home is looking for you. I'm still concerned that you’re responsible for other people’s safety around Plainfield, IL. You maybe want to consider a career change.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-18-2006, 03:11 AM

Rueben.....

Are you a pharisee who would lose their employment, as what I am teaching removes your need to be employed?
Keep eating wafers, wetting heads, bowing to alters and crucifixes, sitting, standing, kneeling, sitting, standing, kneeling, standing, shaking, and sitting, celebrating Eostres worship day, celebrating Constantines pagan gods birthday, and so on...to get right with your god.
I will get right with my God by how he asked me too; by faith ALONE!
You do it you're way, as we are obviously on diffrent paths.
Mine goes directly to the Sheppard.
With no nonsense in-between.
You keep following these "churches", which were set up by men who either hated, maimed, or murdered Jews because that is who they were.
Are you shure their path leads you to the King of the Jews?
Because they shure had a hate for them.

rueben (rueben)

02-18-2006, 03:22 AM

to thekingsent1_again,

No, I’m not a Pharisee. And I am sure you haven’t had a rational thought sense you came on this board.

However you better be careful, we’re keeping an eye on you and if you don’t bow down and worship our gods and Mary and eat our wafers and smell our incense, well we’ll just have to burn you at the stake. There… make you happy?

I can’t believe folks like this still breathe air.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-18-2006, 03:39 AM

Rueben................

Do you have anything constructive to say?
Do you have anything to add?
I see nothing of what you have said about anything that is helping anyone with knowledge or discernement.
You saying that I am wacky is not the reason that factnet exists.
It does not exist so that you could attack people with rude language.
Are you shure you are not zvx..in disguise?

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-18-2006, 05:47 AM

There are eight negative commandments, and two positive ones, among the ten. The 4th commandment to remember the Sabbath is no different than the 5th commandment to obey your parents. Both carried the death penalty, as did all of the 10 commmandments.

All of the 10 commandments, including the Sabbath, had already been expressed in Genesis, either in principle or in actuality. So yes, Abraham obeyed the Sabbath! This was true of all the patriarchs, from Adam to Moses. Gen. 26:5, "Abraham...kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Abraham was the friend of God. He knew Shem, who knew Methuselah, who knew Adam. Who would try to say that Abram, the man God chose to be the father of the faithful, could have been ignorant of the Sabbath?

Jesus, being our example, kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16). It was also the custom of Paul, to honor and worship on the Sabbath (Acts 17:2).

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-21-2006, 12:02 AM

Hey leftin..........

I have some questions...
The non Messianic Jews adhere to the Saturday Sabbath and this has not given them salvation.
I did not even know there was a right day of worship/right Sabbath; until after I recieved the Holy Spirit.
Then obeying or not obeying it was not a basis of my recieving the Holy Spirit.
But............
After recieving the Holy Spirit I saw some things more clearly; when beforehand, I did not.
An example: Before recieving God's Spirit Easter only bothered me somewhat, as I could never see how it's adherences made any real sense. Now, I hate the day, as I see why God considers it a total abomination.
So now I know, as before I did not; to not adhere to it at all.
There is a whole slew more of things that I learned also.
All of these issues are perplexing me.
Because..I learned this after salvation. I also learned that some of these adherences that I was once a partaker in; I cannot partake in any more.
Because...I once did not see, and now I do.
But if I am to have to follow the Saturday Sabbath; do I not then need to follow it's full adherence from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown?
And does it say anywhere that I will be righteous or not righteous by doing so?
More or less saved?
Am I trying to build my own righteousness by doing so?
Do you see what I am asking you?

manu_forti (manu_forti)

02-21-2006, 01:11 AM

The Jewish Sabbath is from Friday sundown to Saturday Sundown.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-21-2006, 01:51 AM

king....

I came out of Catholithism, by boredom, 1st, and then by truth.

traditions of man.....

Do you know that the RCC doesn't teach Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, avoids all but the end of Rev.

Wow....

I was curious and ......anyway.

About the wafer...

I do think that Christ left us 'that' as an example at the last supper. This, in my opinion should be followed, but probably not each week. It would ritualize the whole meaning behind the blood and body of Christ.

My opinion is to partake of Christ's body and blood anytime you feel you need it! It, for me is a deeper admittance and repentance for my sins. I believe the biblical example would be during the major ordained feasts, 3 per year, but that's my opinion, for all we need do to be forgiven is Believe and ASK but this deeper repentance is an example given by Christ and should be observed.

Peace
c

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 02:18 AM

There is nothing you can do to 'protect' your salvation. Salvation is through Jesus only. Seek ye first the kingdom of God. Read what the Bible says about 'first'.
We will receive a reward in heaven. If you believe, you will be among them. Your reward will be your 'faithfulness' to the commandments of God, as a believer.
The commandments mean little to those who don't believe in God. After all, by not believing they do not follow the very first, the most important commandment. How can you follow commandments from someone you don't believe?
Jesus said the New Commandment was to love the Lord with all your heart, your body and your soul. You cannot love God in this way and ignore the first 4 commandments, which are about loving God. The first four commandments are about how we respond to God and the next 6 are about how we respond to men. By following the 4th commandment, we are responding to God (showing our love) by following His commandments. The fourth commandment is so important because God wants us to affirm who He is; The Creator who rested on the 7th day. Take one 7th of our time to praise and worship Him alone.

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 02:24 AM

He has given us 6 days to take care of our needs. He asks for one for Him, the one day He chose for His rest and ours.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-21-2006, 02:51 AM

godchild.........

The only place that I am having difficulty with is that I thought all the ordinaces of the law were done away with so that we could live for God without hinderence from the fear of breaking a law.
Because, as Paul puts it...For ye have not recieved the spirit of bondage again to fear; but the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba Father.....
So if we must obey the Saturday Sabbath; are we not doing so or else?
And in Colossians 2:16, does Paul seem to say that all these special days need not be adhered to, as instead of special days; every day live to God?
But then could we not then just adhere to them out of reverence and not to be "right?"
But then would we have to obey the Sabbath on its exact hours from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset? What should, should we not do on this day?
You know what I mean godchild?
See my true predicament?

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-21-2006, 02:54 AM

Old Testament saints were "saved on credit," so believing and adhering to the 613 laws God gave to Moses made them righteous (Deut. 6:25). But under the manifold (many-varied) grace of God (1 Peter 4:10), remembering & observing the sabbath is on the same par with honoring & respecting your parents. It doesn't make you righteous, but it is just part of obeying & pleasing the LORD & loving Him with all our heart, soul, mind & strength. (John 14:15, Mat. 12:30) The kingdom of Heaven will be filled both with people who understood the Sabbath more fully, & those who did not. Our salvation is not dependent solely on the keeping of any one particular commandment. But those who both "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:17) are those who are a peculiar treasure in the kingdom of God, and are also those who earn the special and focused wrath of Satan.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-21-2006, 02:59 AM

godchild.............
Isnt this then mixing in faith and grace with outward legalism?
Is'nt spirit the key and not the flesh?
But even in revelations 12:17....Satan went to make war with Israel and her seed which KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD...and HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS.
And Rev 22:14....Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life....
So do you suppose it is the 10 commandments that he is speaking about, from where all other law is really derived?

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-21-2006, 03:09 AM

Non-Messianic Jews are in error because they have not submitted themselves "Yahshua" (Jesus) as their righteousness and Messiah. Catholics are also in error because while they do profess some kind of belief in Christ, they do not submit to the commandments of God, and claim church authority to override the Bible. Muslims, on the other hand, do believe in submission (Islam means submission), but have no idea what to submit to! They have neither the right holy book nor the correct day of worship. They don't even have the right God, and hence have no Saviour. None of them are worshipping God in Spirit and in truth! Catholicism worships the sun (SUNday), Islam worships the moon (notice Arabic national flags), and Judaism worships the stars (star of David on Israel's flag)! "Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven." (Acts 7:42)

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-21-2006, 03:20 AM

leftin............

What should I not do/do from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown?
What do you do? What's your opinion?

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-21-2006, 04:42 AM

And................

After I recieved the Holy Spirit I went out on a massive fact hunt, which revealed all these truths.
I tried to observe the Saturday Sabbath with rigidity.
This rigid adherence of not doing was not good, as my wife opened my eyes to this tonight.
What good is it to rigidly adhere to not doing?
Is that not a fleshly adherence, which produces nothing Godlike?
Is'nt that what Jesus went off at the Pharisees for?
For rigidly adhering to the Sabbath?
I want mercy and not sacrifice.
He wants love and kindness, and caring, and sharing.
He does not want rigid law adherences, which have no love.
I think I got it!

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 07:04 AM

king, In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said, "I did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill it."
A covenant is a contract between two people who agree to certain terms in order to have the job completed to everybody's satisfaction, right?
God gave the Commandments and the laws to the Jews. He made a covenant with them. God is faithful. He did nothing to break His side of the agreement. But the people did, over and over again. So the contract was never fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the law. To complete the work that would satisfy God knowing both sides were satisfied. To fulfill does not mean to end. It means to expand, complete, fill out.
He was the only one able to do this. (1) He obeyed it perfectly and taught its correct meaning. (2) He will one day fulfill all of the Old Testament prophesies, (3) He provides a way of salvation that meets all the requirements of the law.
See the next verse Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away (when He comes again), one jot or one tittle (not one tiny bit, grain) will by no means pass FROM the law til all is fulfilled.
vs. 19 Whosoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
You cannot (say you) love God and not keep the commandments. Because Jesus paid the price does not mean God lowered His standards to accommodate our sins. When we obey Him He gives us the power to keep His righteous standards.
He doesn't want us to obey because we fear punishment. He wants us to obey Him because we love Him. The first way is legalism; for ex. The commandment says worship on the seventh day. If you go to church every sabbath but break the law all week, you are obeying the commandment but not from the heart. The law said keep the sabbath. We want to keep it because we love Him, and in doing so we please Him and are obeying His law. If you go to church every sabbath but hate going, you filfill the law but not the spirit of the law, which is in loving obedience.

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 07:18 AM

The law was both temporary (Gal. 3:19, Eph. 2:15, Hebrews 7:12), and eternal (Matt. 5:18, Romans 3:31, Rom. 8:24. The Old Testament Jews were required to obey many laws and rituals, washings, food preparation, head covering, etc. Those laws were temporary. Jesus sacrifice took care of those. The commandments are eternal laws. They are the 'love' laws. We don't stop loving God, or not worshiping idols, or not stealing, or not committing adultery because Jesus gave His life for us. The 10 commandments are eternal.
We won't go to hell if we don't keep the commandments. We can ask forgiveness of those and repent (try harder not to repeat our mistakes), and they are forgotten by God. The Bible names one unforgivable sin. That is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This is denying that Jesus is God, because God said He is, so we would be calling God a liar. Why would we expect that anyone would invite us in if we stand outside their door and say, "You are nothing. You are non-existent. I don't want anything to do with you." God wants us to love him and obey Him, for our salvation and His glory. His glory will be our glory. The Holy Spirit will work in us to make a way for us to obey if we are willing; in His will. This is not usually instantaneous because by tribulation we draw closer to Him because we know He will help. But do not do it if you don't want to. The Bible says that is worse than not doing it.

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 07:22 AM

If you are madly in love with your wife, don't you want to do more and more for her, to show her that you do? Don't you want to please her. And don't you feel wonderful each time and maybe more each time that you do. Loving God is no different.

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 07:26 AM

God promises (and He cannot lie. If you think He can, then you don't know Him) that your (love) cup will be to overflowing (with the love He gives you). When He asks for you to obey Him anyway, you know it is for your own good.

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-21-2006, 04:14 PM

Personally, I do not work on the Sabbath, & I usually attend church that day too. But I don't sweat the small stuff. The Pharisees went wrong by focusing on what must NOT be done, as a reaction to God's command to stone the man who had gathered sticks (Num. 15:32-36). Yes, God commanded just one defiant man to be killed to get our attention, lest we think the Sabbath is not really that big of a deal. But the Pharisees missed the whole point. The purpose is to focus on Him. Isaiah 58:13 should give you a few ideas. The only other guidelines I find in the Bible concern excessive travel (Acts 1:12, "a Sabbath day's journey), and unnecessary, routine buying & selling (Neh. 13:15-22). But that does not mean I would fuss with someone who is on vacation and stops at a restaurant on Sabbath to feed his family. God never intended that the Sabbath be made into a fast day, as Catholicism commanded at one point during the Dark Ages.

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 05:56 PM

Nothing I said was as a judjment on how anyone chooses to serve God, (Christian). God gave us a blueprint for our lives. If we build by using His blueprint, our house will stand forever. If we use only parts of the blueprint, our houses will need constant repair. The choice is ours.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-21-2006, 06:35 PM

leftin1991

Non-Messianic Jews are in error ....Catholics are also in error....They (i.e. Muslims) don't even have the right God.

Do all Protestants have it right?

If not, what about Baptist, Pentecostal, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, or Lutheran?

Do any of them have it right?

godchild (godchild)

02-21-2006, 10:38 PM

yaakov, Can I ask you a question. Do you believe that the Jews have been infiltrated by satan's literal children that some call Kenites? Does this concern you? Sorry. That's two questions.

manu_forti (manu_forti)

02-21-2006, 11:08 PM

godchild,

Sorry to butt in here but, this racism is as old as the Garden.

We have been persecuted for millennia. This doctrine isn’t new. It’s just an old ‘rehashed’ one that has been twisted a little more by an obvious ‘freak’ of Christendom, named Arnold Murray. His followers like to lurk on websites such as these so they can pounce upon anyone that comes against their teacher.

You have experienced some of their vitriol, so you know of what I speak. They dress differnently now, but I still see brown shirts and swastikas. My Father told me stories about his cousins that over 60 years ago fell under this kind of madness in Poland. What was impressed upon me was how quickly it happened. That’s why you might hear my people say things like, “never again”.

I can see you’ve used some common sense to come to your own conclusions.

Thank you for your Christian charity. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. God will bless those that do.

godchild (godchild)

02-22-2006, 02:04 AM

I know what you are saying is true. I want people who are a part of these groups to understand very clearly they will never have the support of any Christian, no matter what race. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem and that eyes may be opened before bad choices do irreparable harm.

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-22-2006, 03:46 AM

Yes, basically the Protestant churches have it right. All of those denominations you mentioned retain a measure of the leaven of Catholicism, such as the pagan holidays, and some of them have greater spiritual understanding than the others. Some of them even have Sabbath revelation, such as the 7th-Day Baptist Church. There are 7th-Day Pentecostals as well. The Baptist faith is the only one that champions liberty of conscience and the priesthood of the individual believer. Baptists run in a sometimes intersecting but distinctly separate stream above Protestantism.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-22-2006, 01:37 PM

godchild

Do you believe that the Jews have been infiltrated by satan's literal children that some call Kenites? Does this concern you? Sorry. That's two questions.

LOL. Actually three, if you include your request to ask me a question. No matter, I’ll reply with one answer.

No.

Judaism is pretty much the same as it always has been. We still follow G-d’s Eternal Laws and rituals. A Jew from a thousand years ago stepping into a synagogue today would have no trouble following the service. The only “infiltration” has been from Christians posing as Jews, the so-called Messianic jews.

This satanistic garbage is just from various Christians taking the anti-Semitic stuff from the GT (such as the synagogue of satan verse) and making it the foundation of their beliefs.

godchild (godchild)

02-22-2006, 02:45 PM

yaakov2, A pleasure to hear from you, as always. May I quote you? (1)? For those who need to hear it again and again, and again!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

godchild (godchild)

02-22-2006, 02:54 PM

And manu, God has already blessed me; I could have been one of these poor misguided people as I was raised by people with like/mentality. You've gotta love em!! So I've been dealing with this for a long, long time; like, almost 59 years. I have done my small part by being very sure my progeny views life differently. It brings a great sense of peace to our lives, and we are not limited in the quality/quantity of our relationships.

godchild (godchild)

02-22-2006, 02:57 PM

One fine day these people will see that no matter how well intentioned they are, they are guilty by association. Ignorance; feigned or otherwise, will be no excuse.

manu_forti (manu_forti)

02-22-2006, 03:12 PM

Godchild,

Looks like you got things calmed down around here. My hat’s off to you, (even though I’m not wearing one).

I’ve been away from this site for awhile and the only reason I stepped in lately is I saw how they were beating up on you, metaphorically speaking of course. It gets my hackles up. Now that has stopped. I think that is due to your efforts.

I can see now that everyone is going to play nice. I hope it lasts. You take care of yourself.

godchild (godchild)

02-22-2006, 05:22 PM

Thanks, manu. God takes the most Excellent care of me. This is what I want to share here, not to attempt to tear down the foundation of our faith.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-22-2006, 09:56 PM

Sure, go ahead godchild.

BTW, I saw your post about why you don't capitalize your handle. Your explanation impressed me.

godchild (godchild)

02-23-2006, 12:22 AM

Yaakov, I meant every word.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-23-2006, 07:39 PM

Hey instead of devouring one another........
Let's get down to the truth...OK??????

I am asking that you all light my way in what I should or should not be doing in regards to adhering too or not adhering to the Sabbath.

godchild (godchild)

02-24-2006, 03:10 AM

There is a new book coming out, "The Ten Commandments Twice Removed." I'm going to get a copy. I think they are or will be in the Walmart stores.
I understand there is going to be a national gathering of church leaders to present a 'Ten Commandments Day'. If all these ministers of different denominations are going, they must believe in ALL Ten of the Commandments. How can you change one and not the others?
king, You need to do what the Spirit is leading you to do, and don't worry what we may think. We cannot say yes to Christ without saying 'no' to others.
Read Revelation 3:15-17.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-24-2006, 03:39 AM

And Jesus became our Sabbath, and our Passover

Rest IN Him, not on the traditions of what day to follow, and I say this because we, as a society, lost a few days when the calendar changed.

And that is something that anyone can find out about with a littel study! So, is Saturday the Sabbath? The Hebrews certainly didn't call their 7th day Saturday. So who's to know for sure!

Jesus became our Sabbath. Worship Him and make sure not to burn out and take at least a day off every week. And on that day of REST, do something for God!

Christ WORKED on the Sabbath.
David fed his men by picking and eating the grain on a Sabbath!

Peace
c

leftin1991 (leftin1991)

02-24-2006, 04:13 AM

The Jews have never been confused about the Sabbath, all the way back to the time of Christ. They have their own calendar. But even with the Gregorian (Roman) calendar, although yes they did change some numbers during the Middle Ages once maybe twice (to account for not having leap years), however, they never jumped from say Friday to Tuesday. The weekly cycle has been constant on both the Jewish and Gregorian calendars. Workers who are paid weekly have always made sure of that!

Jesus never broke the Sabbath or anything else in the Law, but he did shatter man-made traditions which were added to God's Word.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-24-2006, 05:15 PM

ezekiel_37

And that is something that anyone can find out about with a littel study! So, is Saturday the Sabbath? The Hebrews certainly didn't call their 7th day Saturday. So who's to know for sure!

Certainly not Christians that don’t read Hebrew. The Hebrew days of the week, in order spelled phonetically, are Ree-Shon (Sunday), She-Nee (Monday), Shelee-She (Tuesday), Re-Ve-ee (Wednesday), Hah-Mee-Shee (Thursday), Shee-Shee (Friday), Sha-bat (Saturday). Saturday is an English word. So, you are correct. We call the 7th day Shabbat, not Saturday.

Christ WORKED on the Sabbath.

This is a good example of one of your deity's sins.

godchild (godchild)

02-24-2006, 06:58 PM

yaakov, If your rabbi were to fall with a heart attack during your shabbat, will you leave him there? Or your Mother, Father, or anyone you know or love? Who defines work? Do you dress for services? Do you lift yourself from the bed? Do you walk or drive? This is what Jesus was trying to teach. We are to obey the spirit of the law, not the punishment we may fear.
Jesus tells us that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.

manu_forti (manu_forti)

02-24-2006, 07:04 PM

Jesus example of healing on the Shabbat was the true example of what God wants us to do for each other.

It is not wrong to do good on the Shabbat. I've read the gospels, Jesus in my opinion had it correct.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-24-2006, 07:46 PM

Who defines work?

G-d does.

Exodus 20: 8 "Remember the Shabbat day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Shabbat to HaShem your G-d. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days HaShem made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore HaShem blessed the Shabbat day and made it holy.

Deuteronomy 5: 12 "Observe the Shabbat day by keeping it holy, as HaShem your G-d has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Shabbat to HaShem your G-d. On it you shall not do any work, not you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that HaShem your G-d brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore HaShem your G-d has commanded you to observe the Shabbat day.

Exodus 31: 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Shabbat of rest, holy to HaShem. Whoever does any work on the Shabbat day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Shabbat, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days HaShem made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

Exodus 35: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Shabbat of rest to HaShem. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Shabbat day."

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-24-2006, 07:47 PM

Continued

Leviticus 19:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Shabbat of rest to HaShem. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Shabbat day."

Leviticus 23:3 " 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Shabbat of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Shabbat to HaShem.

Do you dress for services? Do you lift yourself from the bed? Do you walk or drive?

Ah, this is a common Christian fallacy. They translated the Hebrew word melachot as the English word work. And then you interpret “work” as any sort of physical activity. Melachot is actually defined as the activities it took to build the Tabernacle. So, such activities as lighting a fire is forbidden, but walking is not.

Jesus tells us that…

So?

I listen to what G-d tells me. You have the free will to listen to any other guy that you want.

Are you aware of your own history? For a few centuries, Christianity also considered the Sabbath to be Saturday. Sunday came much later. It was changed by Christianity to emphasize that Christians were not Jews.

Quote: The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales as late as 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa, India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.

We are to obey the spirit of the law, not the punishment we may fear.

ROFL. Now that is funny. You guys talk about satan and hell so much, punishment is obviously of continuing concern to yall.

manu_forti (manu_forti)

02-24-2006, 07:48 PM

Is doing good work?

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-24-2006, 09:30 PM

So tell me Yaakov,

How are you given forgiveness for your sins?
Since you do not (i assume) have burnt offerings, what is your day of attonement following?

You have to harbour all that sin for a whole year, and what happens when you die with unforgiven sin?

Do you believe that the Messiah was forcast to come in Daniel, and that the exact amount of years were also prophecied?

godchild (godchild)

02-24-2006, 11:24 PM

Melachot it the activities it took to build the tabernacle. Well, is healing something that was done during the building of the tabernacle?

Yes, The more I study the origination of the 'Sunday sabbath', I totally agree with you. The Ten Commandments were eternal, written with God's finger on stone. When the New Testament speaks of the laws being fulfilled, that does not include the Ten Commandments. Jesus said to obey the Commandments. The other laws were required to pay the penalty for sin. Jesus took the sins to the cross, by paying the penalty forever. This is why those laws no longer are needed.
You didn't answer the question. Are you allowed to heal on Shabbat, or would you consider that a sin? I have seen many Jewish Hospitals. Do they close on Shabbat? Does a Jewish doctor refuse emergency calls on Shabbat? What happens if a woman goes into labor? What if a child swallows something poisonous. Man, the list is endless.
This is why God did away with these laws; they simply didn't work. The scribes and pharisees took these as an excuse to control and punish the people, yet hiding their own sin; not as God intended. (At least for most people, would you agree?)

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-25-2006, 02:24 AM

godchild...................

Here is what I am saying...
I know that Saturday is his Sabbath. Always was!
OK...we know this fact and we understand that the pope and his god changed it.
I am just looking for others opinions to try to light up things.
Lets say that I do no laborous work at all during the week. I do it all on Saturday. Can not that be a reverse way of celebrating the day?
Can I not just live for God every day and not considered what day it is?
Can I shop?
Can I go to a amusement park?
Dig for me you all..........

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-25-2006, 02:43 AM

Yaakov2...............
On a diffrent subject.....
I have a true fondness for the Jewish people, as I know what they have gone through by the hands of the Gentiles.
I can prove to you that alot of prophesy in the New Testament has come true, which proves its authenticity. I can do the same with Daniel and Revelations.
If you would like me to prove it just ask me.
I just ask that you become your own detective.
It was not just happenstance that the Jewish people got smote by Rome in 70ad.
God got alot upset at Israel's continued rejection and disobediance. I mean he worked with them for how many years?
The Old Testament has a grand amount of scripture that was fully fullfilled during his time on Earth. This cannot be happenstance.
What if.......you actually believed and truelly turned to Jesus/God in faith?
What would be your possible loss?
I mean...you will die either way. Its inevitable.
But if I am right, you gained eternal life. And if you are right, you can simply attone and gain eternal life.
Where is the loss that you would endure?
See what I am saying?
Why not try? And if you will not try what is the fear that is holding you back?
I am not speaking to you spitefully but I am trying to move you. I am really looking out for your own benefit, as your disbelieve/belief will not impact me one way or the other.

godchild (godchild)

02-25-2006, 03:22 AM

king, Your sincerity is so refreshing. I would give you a hug if I could. The only 'rule of thumb' I can give you is to do what God asks you to. He gave us His Word. It is up to us. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. You will be with Him again, this we know. It is in praise and worship of Him that I try to do what He wills.
I heard something last nite that might help you. Read very closely and prayerfully all the Bible says about obeying His Ten Commandments and why he gave Him. I think you will discover that if we follow, He will bless us in ways we cannot imagine, and I mean now, not just when we go to heaven. He will be with us when we obey.
Kind of what you told yaakov. What can it hurt?
His hand is upon you, this I know.

godchild (godchild)

02-25-2006, 03:26 AM

king, One more thing before I go. Ask yourself why there is no question that we should obey the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill", but there is so little thought to not obeying the fourth one?

shammah (shammah)

02-25-2006, 07:29 PM

Hi. Can I throw in a thought on the original question from way back on Sept. 19. This is from the Letter of Barnabas, dated about AD 130:

"Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this, ] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead."

This is significant, because much of the 2nd century church considered this letter to be Scripture, so it represents a lot of church's belief at that time.

You can read the writings of the Church for the next 200 years, and they all say basically the same thing. Justin Martyr for example, around AD 150, says, "The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you."

It is this belief that led the early church not to keep the Sabbath. Meeting on Sunday was clearly something they did. Perhaps the letter of Barnabas gives the correct reason for that. Personally, I think the first Christians, in Jerusalem, still went to the synagogue meetings on the Sabbath, so they had to wait till either Saturday evening (which would be the Jews first day already) or Sunday morning to meet themselves. But that's just a guess.

Now, onto what Scriptures say the early church had it right...

shammah (shammah)

02-25-2006, 07:37 PM

If you'll look at Matt 5:17, you'll see, "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it," or something close to that, depending on your translation.

The word "fulfill" there is "pleroo" in Greek. It means to fill up, expand, or bring to fullness. Y'shua went on in the rest of Matt 5 to explain what he meant by "filling up" the law or "expanding it." Whereas they had heard not to murder, he wants us not even to be angry at our brother or insult our brother. Whereas the law says no adultery, he said don't even look at a woman to lust after her.

A little further down, he tells them not to make oaths, despite the fact that Ps 76:11 commands that oaths be made. Why did he do that? Because he wants us to keep our every word, not just our oaths, thus making oaths useless.

The early church believed he also expanded the Sabbath law. Every day was to be lived in the rest of Christ, thus making a fleshly rest on one day pointless.

Paul gives an example of this in 1 Cor 9. He says that the law about muzzling oxen was really about people, not oxen. The expansion of that command was that we should physically support those who serve us spiritually.

Food was the same way to the early church. What does it mean to eat clean foods? God doesn't care about foods. ("Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them," said Paul.) But he does want us to ruminate on the Word of God and to part from evil (chew the cud and part the hoof). We are to fellowship with those who meditate on the Word of God and part from evil.

This is the law in the view of the early church, and I think it was clearly Paul's view, too, who always used the law in its "filled up" form, as we should as well. See Gal 4:21ff for a further example, where Sarah and Hagar are covenants.

godchild (godchild)

02-25-2006, 08:43 PM

Please note: When Jesus said your new moons and your sabbath I cannot endure, I believe he was speaking about the people who were attending church on sabbath day and not worshiping the other days (in other days, keeping that day not to sin but the others not being concerned about), sitting in the best seats, grabbing the first plate of food, collecting money, dressing to impress people, being outwardly righteousness with evil intent in your heart. He never said "Do not worship on My Father's appointed and blessed day".
If this verse is taken literally, does this mean that Jesus did away with the moon, or the fact that people were using astrology to interpret God's intent for their lives?
I agree it is not what goes into the mouth that destroys men, but the words that come out of them.
People were 'idolizing' the new moons, their jewelled clothes, the money they collected that was supposed to be for the ministry. The Sabbath, on the other hand, cannot be idolized. It was written by God's hand not once, but twice on stone. The Sabbath was the evidence of God's creation, and how can we idolize that. (The fact that God created all.) There are days appointed for remembrance, which isn't idolatry, and an eternal day appointed for worship, to praise and worship only God. The 4th commandment confirms the first three.

shammah (shammah)

02-25-2006, 09:49 PM

>>There are days appointed for remembrance, which isn't idolatry, and an eternal day appointed for worship, to praise and worship only God.<<

As far as I know, the 4th commandment says nothing about a day set aside for worship. He said to make that day holy, but the only command he gave to make it holy was to abstain from labor. Am I missing something?

>>When Jesus said your new moons and your sabbath I cannot endure, I believe he was speaking about the people who were attending church on sabbath day and not worshiping the other days<<

Again, as far as I can see attending church has nothing to do even with the old covenant Sabbath.

>>If this verse is taken literally, does this mean that Jesus did away with the moon, or the fact that people were using astrology to interpret God's intent for their lives?<<

Not sure why you asked this or even what verse you're referring to.

>>The Sabbath, on the other hand, cannot be idolized.<<

I didn't say anything about the Sabbath being idolized. Were you answering some post above that I didn't see?

shammah (shammah)

02-25-2006, 09:52 PM

Yaakov wrote: >>Are you aware of your own history? For a few centuries, Christianity also considered the Sabbath to be Saturday. Sunday came much later. It was changed by Christianity to emphasize that Christians were not Jews.<<

This isn't true. See my quotes from Barnabas and Justin above. The early church believed in a perpetual, daily Sabbath that happened by sanctifying each day in Christ.

I don't know what to do about the people who write books or histories saying that the early church kept one day as the Sabbath. I've read everything the 2nd century church wrote, most of it multiple times, and some of the 3rd century writings. They are absolutely consistent on this issue. It's bizarre that anyone suggests otherwise.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-26-2006, 03:02 AM

ezekiel_37

So tell me Yaakov, How are you given forgiveness for your sins?

Holy Moses, I must have answered this question 3 dozen times. In any case, your questions are completely off-topic and have nothing to do with honoring the Sabbath on the 7th day.

Why did Christians abandon or change G-d's commandments?

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-26-2006, 03:03 AM

godchild

The Ten Commandments were eternal, written with God's finger on stone. When the New Testament speaks of the laws being fulfilled, that does not include the Ten Commandments. Jesus said to obey the Commandments. The other laws were required to pay the penalty for sin. Jesus took the sins to the cross, by paying the penalty forever. This is why those laws no longer are needed.

Hmmm. Well...it's another big difference between Judaism and Christianity.

G-d gave the Jews 613 Laws, not just 10. Each is just as important as the others. Each is Eternal, not just followed until some event happened. G-d tells us specifically and directly that if somebody tells us to stop following His Laws, then that is proof that the somebody is a false prophet.

Are you allowed to heal on Shabbat, or would you consider that a sin? I have seen many Jewish Hospitals. Do they close on Shabbat? Does a Jewish doctor refuse emergency calls on Shabbat? What happens if a woman goes into labor? What if a child swallows something poisonous. Man, the list is endless.

Saving a life takes precedence over the Sabbath Laws. About the permutations being endless, I'll agree with you. There are several libraries of books where the Sages discuss this in great detail. What if a person is merely sick (e.g. a cold), what if a person is gravely sick with a long-term ailment, what if a person is afflicted with a new condition, etc.

This is why God did away with these laws; they simply didn't work.

To me, this is a blasphemous statement.

You are saying that G-d purposefully and cruelly gave the Jews a set of Laws that He knew wouldn't work. Or that G-d thought they would work, but wasn't omniscient enough to realize that they wouldn't work.

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-26-2006, 03:04 AM

king, Your duplicity is showing.

On one hand you purport to have a fondness for the Jews. On the other hand, you want us to abandon G-d for an idol and convert to Christianity.

arron (arron)

02-26-2006, 04:30 AM

in hebrews 1 verse 8 tells us thta THE SON (JESUS) IS GOD AND VERSE 9 TELLS US THAT THE FATHER IS GOD. SO WE DO FIND THAT BOTH JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE GOD. WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS. THE TRINITY MATTHEW 28 TELLL US TO GO BAPTISE IN THE NAME (ONE NAME) OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY GHOST.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-26-2006, 04:43 AM

Well I, for one, only believe in ONE GOD.

YHVH, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob

Yeshewa(Yashua, Yeshuwa, or any other way to spell and pronounce the hebrew name for the Annointed Messiah called Jesus Christ) is the one and only God, manifest as Human. God is the most amazing and powerful. He could easily decide to come in Human form, which one of His many names suggests. YHVH Shammah! God Dwells HERE! Dejour!

Peace
c

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-26-2006, 04:45 AM

And where God and Christ are, His Holy Spirit is also there!

Oncve you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father

Peace
c

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-26-2006, 05:05 AM

Yaakov...........

My testimoney is true.
I have been given a vision from the God of Israel.
I have come in contact with his Spirit, as he himself descended upon me with giving me the answer to his vision to me.
Yes, it is not easy to believe me.
But I still have no motivation to lie.
If I were lying there would need to be a motivation for doing so. I am not lieing and am telling the truth.
Again...I can prove to you that some New Testament prophesy has already been fullfilled.
If you like to know...just ask.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-26-2006, 05:14 AM

shammah...........

I think I understand that living for God every day instead of 1 makes sense.
But here is what worries me:
I know without any doubts that the man of lawlessness in Thessalonians is referring to the pope.
What worries me is why he is lawless and a spreader of it.
What did he do that makes him this?
Well they changed 2 commandments, the one on idols and the Sabbath.
There is alot more that is totally uncompatible with scripture. But wht is he being called this by God?
This is where my worry of the Sabbath is coming from.
The R.C.C. changed the SOLEMINITY of the Sabbath to Sunday.
We seem to agree that the Sabbath is Saturday.
But the question is now what?

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-26-2006, 05:22 AM

actually fri dusk till sat dusk

yaakov2 (yaakov2)

02-27-2006, 12:10 AM

king

I also speak to G-d daily. I am not lying either. Anyone can speak to G-d, He is always available.

shammah (shammah)

02-27-2006, 12:55 AM

>>I know without any doubts that the man of lawlessness in Thessalonians is referring to the pope. What worries me is why he is lawless and a spreader of it. What did he do that makes him this? Well they changed 2 commandments, the one on idols and the Sabbath....The R.C.C. changed the SOLEMINITY of the Sabbath to Sunday.<<

The problem with what you're saying, kingsent, is not the reasoning, but the fact that what you're reasoning from isn't true. The quotes that I gave, saying that we're to keep perpetual Sabbath, are from AD 130 and AD 150, before there ever was a pope or an RCC.

It is true that the RCC restored a lot of OT priesthood things. They took the 1st day, the day the Christians met on and called the Lord's day, and made it a Sabbath, whereas it was never a Sabbath to the early church at all. They created the idea of the bishop as high priest, the elders as other priests, and the deacons (lit. servants) as levites. None of this was an early Christian concept at all, although the comparison to the OT Levites had been made very early. Having a one-day Sabbath, however, was unknown to the church for centuries, until the Roman Catholics slowly created a Sunday sabbath.

So if you want to restore something, it ought not to be a one-day Sabbath, but on the same day the Jews had it on. Instead, you should restore the belief of the apostles and their churches, which is that we are to perpetually rest in Christ. This is the only true Christian Sabbath-keeping.

Of course, that needs to only be the beginning. The much bigger problem is that the whole concept of the church as the united family of God and its importance in God's plan has been lost. Y'shua himself said that the proof that he was from God is the unity of his disciples (Jn 17:20-23). Are those who claim to be his disciples showing unity to the world?

godchild (godchild)

02-27-2006, 01:00 AM

I suppose people can just 'let it go one way or the other'. But are you aware there is a movement to make the government legally call Sunday a day of worship? Does that bother anyone?

Anybody worried about losing your job if you want to work on Sunday?

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-27-2006, 05:55 AM

God Bless you Godchild
you said you dont belong to any denomination but you are a believer. that realy touched my heart. becouse your reading the Bible for yourself. You are the Church Yahshua Messiah died for and is coming back for. Please listen to me, I am a independent Preacher in the Philippines i steped out of the wordly denominational Church system 3 years ago. Now i am free to preach the gospel as it is written word for word. Something that no denomination on the face of this earth dose today without adding something to it or taking something away from it. The 10 commandments were never done away with. Please dont believe that lie, What was done away with and nailed to the tree with Yahshua Messiah was the {613 laws of moses} The Apostle james calls the 10 commandments the law of liberty, which we will be judged by. Please read James 2:10-12, he also states that if we break one of these laws we broke them all!!! that includes the 4th commandment. Mat 5:17 tells us that the Messiah did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it. 5:18 tells us that heaven and earth must pass away first before one dot of the i or cross of the t will ever be taken away, til all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 tells us in red letter the words of Yahshua the Messiah himself,Whosoever breaks one of these least commandments,and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This includes the 4th Commandment!!! Question has heaven and earth passed away? Has all been fulfilled???

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-27-2006, 05:59 AM

The Lords Day is a Catholic doctrine from Hell. NO WHERE in the 27 books of the NT dose Yahshua nor his Apostles call the First day of the week the Lords day, And NO WHERE in the 27 books of the NT are we told by Yahshua or his Apostles to rest and worship on the First Day of the Week!!! NO WHERE in the Bible is the First Day of the week called a HOLYDAY!!! The Bible clearly tells us, in Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath Day. Dosent that make the 7TH Saturday the Lords Day? infact if you have a 1611 Authorized KJV Bible you will find that ever where you find the two words First day togather you will see that the word {DAY} is differnt or italic, that means the word was added by the translator, {First day} dose not exist in the original greek manuscripts, so it was taken from the CORROUPT VOLGATE LATIN MANUSCRIPTS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! Go to Mark 16:9 Now when {JESUS} was risen early the first {DAY} of the week, Here you can see the use of italics, becouse the words {JESUS AND DAY} dont belong, it was not {jesus} that was risen it was {Yahshua}Which means YHWH Saves, or YEHSHUA which means Salvation!!! The name {Jesus Christ} did not exist more than Five or six hunderd years ago. and it was not on the First day of the week! it had to be on the Sabbath. Go to ACTS 20:7 And upon the first {DAY} of the week,again in italics. Becouse it was not the First Day of the week, It was the First Sabbath of 7 Sabbaths leading to the day of Pentecost, 7 times 7 = 49 and the next day was Sunday the 50TH Day. The day of Pentecost, Pentecost means 50TH, I have a small NT Bible, Called {THE GOOD NEWS NEW TESTAMENT With Psalms and Proverbs} Published here in the Philippines at the {Philippine Bible Society} Let me show how ACTS 20:7 reads, ACTS 20:7 On Saturday evening we gathered together for the fellowship meal. Paul spoke to the people and kept on speaking until midnight, since he was going to leave the next day.

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-27-2006, 06:02 AM

You see it was on the Sabbath when they came togather and the Apostle Paul preached into the First Day of the week becouse the First Day of the Week started a few hours later at Sundown and preached til midnight! Please go to Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to {dawn}toward the first {DAY} of the week, In the first place it dident dawn toward the first day of the week, It Dust toward the first day of the week, The day begains at Dust not dawn 2000 years ago, they were not on Catholic time then!!! Please go to Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, {neither on the SABBATH DAY!!! Now this is in the future during the tribulation, Yahshua is expecting us to be keeping the Sabbath Day intil he returns Point Blank. Please read ACTS 13:41-48 Here the apostle Paul is preaching to the Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath and the Gentiles heard him and besought {beged} him to come back on {the next Sabbath Day} so they could hear the good news of Messiah for the first time. Now The Apostle paul made them waite 7 full days intil the next Sabbath and when he came back to preach to them on the next Sabbath Day almost the whole city came toether to hear the word of God. and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed! Did you get that? only those who were ordained to eternal life came togather on the Sabbath to hear the word of God for the first time and believed! Wow thats so Powerfull. One more and i have to go, My wife keeps calling me here at the Ministry to come home to eat, i live in another town and she worrys about me, shes a great women i am truly Blessed to have her, Luke 4:16 tells us that it was the custom of Yahshua the Messiah to go to synagogue on the Sabbath to stand up and read the Word of God, Shouldent his custom be our custom??? 1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. so if my Master walked into Church on the 7Th Day to reed the Word of God So will I. Yours in Messiah
Truthfinder PS i Pray this helped you a little, God Bless

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-27-2006, 11:03 AM

Wow great post Truth....

God's name that He told Moses is "I AM That I AM"

Some say that translates to YHWY, but there is definately no W. The letter, (each stands for a Word) is actually V.
Y H V H, taken from the first letter in each word in the Hebrew phrase "I AM THAT I AM"

Not that God wouldn't know who we were talking about anyway....At one time I thought God's sacred name was Jehovah! There is no J sound in Hebrew! Just doesn't exist!

But that's a small point and not a salvation issue. I just thought you may want to know more about it as it is indeed very intersting and, ofcourse-strait from the Word of God!

Peace to you in Yeshua's precious name.
c

shammah (shammah)

02-27-2006, 01:29 PM

>>the Messiah did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.<<

I have a post above on this verse (Matt 5:17). The word fulfil there is "pleroo" in Greek, which mean fill up, expand, bring to fullness. Y'shua spends the rest of the chapter explaining what that means. There he expands not just the ten commandments, but all the commandments.

The expansion of the Sabbath command is that we are to keep every day holy by resting in Christ and submitting ourselves to God.

>>NO WHERE in the 27 books of the NT dose Yahshua nor his Apostles call the First day of the week the Lords day<<

This is totally a matter of opinion, since the Lord's day is only in Scripture once and there is no explanation whatsoever as to what day he is referring to.

The early church used Lord's day to refer to the first day of the week long before there was a Roman Catholic church or a pope. The Letter of Barnabas mentions keeping the eighth day, and that was AD 130.

To the early church, however, the Sabbath was every day, and every day was to be sanctified. "If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived," is how the Letter of Barnabas put it, and so they taught that we are to sanctify every day.

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-27-2006, 10:57 PM

I take The Lord's Day to represtent the 1000 year Millenial reign of Christ (before the White Thrown Judgement of The Father), for a day with The Lord is as a thousand years to man.

And John was taken to The Lord's Day during his Revelation vision. This is a future time and the tribulation of the anti-christ is followed by the true Christ's return, marking the beginning of the Lord's Day!

Peace
c

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 12:34 AM

Good Morning
Thanks for the Info ezekiel_37, and yes it is very intersting, YHVH, i realy need to resurch this more deeply, becouse in my Ministry i teach {YHWH and Yahshua}. becouse Yahshua said i come in my Fathers name, john 5:43. and ofcourse we know the Fathers name is not {JESUS} or {Jehovah} But in my studys i have always come across YHWH. Many pull YAHWEH out of this, and for that they ofcourse need the W. and it is said to be found in the dead sea scrolls, But i do not teach {YAHWEH} becouse i am not sure of it! thanks i will realy look into it now, and your right their is no j in the hebrew alphabet nor is their any j sound in their vocabulary. i have found that the letter j is no more than 600 years old, and when it was first used it had a {Y} sound. infact the first edition of the 1611 Authorized KJV Bible had no letter j in it James was spelled with an i. and Jesus was spelled in Iesus. I pray each and every day of my life is a learning experience.
yours in Messiah
Truthfinder

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 02:08 AM

To Shammah
"The Letter of Barnabas mentions keeping the eighth day, and that was AD 130" My question is was this Letter of Barnabas excepted as Holy Spirit inspired writings, or was it denyed by the canon???
This is a Quote, Barnabas was a hellenized Jew who joined the Jerusalem church soon after Christ's crucifixion, sold his property, and gave the proceeds to the community (Acts 4:36&#8211;37). He was one of the Cypriots who founded (Acts 11:19&#8211;20) the church in Antioch, where he preached. After he called Paul from Tarsus as his assistant (Acts 11:25), they undertook joint missionary activity (Acts 13&#8211;14) and then went to Jerusalem in 48. Shortly afterward, a serious conflict separated them, and Barnabas sailed to Cyprus (Acts 15:39). There is no contemporary mention of his subsequent activity, except for a brief reference by Paul a few years later (I Corinthians 9:6).

Evidently regarded as scriptural in Egypt, the Letter of Barnabas was included in the Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th-century Greek manuscript of the Bible, and it was also quoted by the presbyter Clement of Alexandria (d. c. 215). It was less highly regarded elsewhere, however, and few Christians continued to read it.

{Brother i want to be very very sure of what i teach} Please read this,

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 02:13 AM

The Gospel of Barnabas
[Category: 'Gospel of Barnabas' facts and description]

The Gospel of Barnabas is a work purporting to be a depiction of the life of Jesus (Jesus: A teacher and prophet born in Bethlehem and active in Nazareth; his life and sermons form the basis for Christianity (circa 4 BC - AD 29)) by his disciple Barnabas (Barnabas: barnabas was an early christian mentioned in the new testament....
[follow hyperlink for more...]) . The earliest known manuscripts have been dated to the late sixteenth century, and are written in Italian (Italian: A native or inhabitant of Italy) and in Spanish (Spanish: The Romance language spoken in most of Spain and the countries colonized by Spain) ; although the Spanish version now only survives in an eighteenth century copy. It is about the same length as the four canonical gospels put together (the Italian manuscript has 222 chapters); with the bulk being devoted to an account of Jesus' ministry, much of it harmonised from accounts also found in the canonical gospel (gospel: Four books in the New Testament that tell the story of Christ's life and teachings) s.

This work is written from a highly pro-Islam (Islam: The monotheistic religion of Muslims founded in Arabia in the 7th century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as laid down in the Koran) ic viewpoint, not only mentioning Muhammad (Muhammad: Leader of Black Muslims who campaigned for independence for Black Americans (1897-1975)) by name, but including the shahada (shahada: more facts about this subject) (chapter 39). It is strongly anti-Paul (Paul: (New Testament) a Christian missionary to the Gentiles; author of several Epistles in the New Testament; even though Paul was not present at the Last Supper he is considered an apostle) ine and anti-Trinitarian (Trinitarian: Adherent of Trinitarianism) in tone. In this work, Jesus, is described as a prophet (prophet: Someone who speaks by divine inspiration; someone who is an interpreter of the will of God) and not the son of God (son of God: "son of god" is a biblical phrase from the hebrew bible, and the new testament....

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 02:19 AM

the Gospel of Barnabas
[Category: 'Gospel of Barnabas' facts and description]

The Gospel of Barnabas is a work purporting to be a depiction of the life of Jesus (Jesus: A teacher and prophet born in Bethlehem and active in Nazareth; his life and sermons form the basis for Christianity (circa 4 BC - AD 29)) by his disciple Barnabas (Barnabas: barnabas was an early christian mentioned in the new testament....
[follow hyperlink for more...]) . The earliest known manuscripts have been dated to the late sixteenth century, and are written in Italian (Italian: A native or inhabitant of Italy) and in Spanish (Spanish: The Romance language spoken in most of Spain and the countries colonized by Spain) ; although the Spanish version now only survives in an eighteenth century copy. It is about the same length as the four canonical gospels put together (the Italian manuscript has 222 chapters); with the bulk being devoted to an account of Jesus' ministry, much of it harmonised from accounts also found in the canonical gospel (gospel: Four books in the New Testament that tell the story of Christ's life and teachings) s.

This work is written from a highly pro-Islam (Islam: The monotheistic religion of Muslims founded in Arabia in the 7th century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as laid down in the Koran) ic viewpoint, not only mentioning Muhammad (Muhammad: Leader of Black Muslims who campaigned for independence for Black Americans (1897-1975)) by name, but including the shahada (shahada: more facts about this subject) (chapter 39). It is strongly anti-Paul (Paul: (New Testament) a Christian missionary to the Gentiles; author of several Epistles in the New Testament; even though Paul was not present at the Last Supper he is considered an apostle) ine and anti-Trinitarian (Trinitarian: Adherent of Trinitarianism) in tone. In this work, Jesus, is described as a prophet (prophet: Someone who speaks by divine inspiration; someone who is an interpreter of the will of God) and not the son of God (son of God: "son of god" is a biblical phrase from the hebrew bible, and the new testament....

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-28-2006, 02:35 AM

shammah....

I like your name.

....because He will dwell here!

Peace
c

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 02:38 AM

follow hyperlink for more...]) and anti-Trinitarian (anti-Trinitarian: nontrinitarianism or antitrinitarianism is the doctrinal description applied to rejection...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) writings; but there are no known earlier precursors.

Sorrry i dont agree!!!

{To the early church, however, the Sabbath was every day}, and every day was to be sanctified. "If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived," is how the Letter of Barnabas put it, and so they taught that we are to sanctify every day. {THE END}

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 02:41 AM

I teach my people to keep the 7Th day to sanctify it, But i do agree we must do all things with a Pure Heart or we are deceived!!!
Yours in Messiah
Truthfinder PS i truly love this and agree 110%
"The much bigger problem is that the whole concept of the church as the united family of God and its importance in God's plan has been lost. Y'shua himself said that the proof that he was from God is the unity of his disciples (Jn 17:20-23). Are those who claim to be his disciples showing unity to the world?

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-28-2006, 02:45 AM

Hi truth... sorry to interupt your last post....

To all concerned

This debate on what is the proper sabbath, should be decided with one thought....

Jesus BECAME our SABBATH!

remember aswell...

Jesus BECAME our PASSOVER.

Not 1 day a week but EVERYDAY!

Peace
c

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 02:56 AM

WOW, Sorry about the double Post!

truthfinder (truthfinder)

02-28-2006, 03:09 AM

Ok Brother i agree Yahshua became our passover and i keep the NT Passover not Easter. But what day do we set aside for rest and Worship now, Everyday?

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

02-28-2006, 06:52 AM

This is debated and there are 4 basic viewpoints

1-No day at all-those that do not worship
2-Saturday-the 7th day(as supposed) in the week
3-Sunday-the newly adopted 7th day and the 3rd day when He arose(as supposed)
4-Everyday to worship!

I abide by the 4th option but it does not bother me 'when' others choose to worship. I think there are too many traditional views that are followed today and this includes what day is OK to be the Sabbath.

So, the worship part is easy to understand-everyday

the 'rest' part is, to me, different for everyone.

I work odd hours and rest when the time provides, and I will not work 7 days a week.

But I will by groceries at the store on Saturday, Sunday or any day of the week!

Society here in North America is very structured to a 5 day work week and a 2 day weekend. This fits neatly into the week-end (Sat, Sun) Sabbath for most.

We all need rest and we all need Jesus.
For church-either is fine....there are even week day services at most, but the week-end is still prominant.

God knows our hearts
Peace
c

shammah (shammah)

02-28-2006, 12:37 PM

Truthfinder,

The Gospel of Barnabas is not the Letter of Barnabas. Two different things. The Letter of Barnabas certainly doesn't mention Mohammed or Islam, because it was written 500 years before Mohammed was born.

I wasn't quoting the Letter of Barnabas as Scripture. I was using it to prove that the idea of not keeping a literal 7th day Sabbath came around long before the pope.

I mentioned that many churches considered it Scripture, because obviously those churches agreed with the Letter of Barnabas. This establishes that the idea was widespread.

In fact, if you were to read through the 2nd century writings of the church, as I have done more than once, you would find that it was universally accepted that Christians don't literally keep the Sabbath. For example, in Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho" Trypho says that the one problem the Jews have with Christians is that Christians don't sacrifice, get circumcised, or keep the Sabbaths.

It is a myth that the early church kept the Sabbath and that the pope or Constantine or the RCC changed it. That's the only point I was making.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-28-2006, 05:33 PM

I find that scripture has pointings toward's both conclusions.
That we should keep the Sabbath and that it does not matter if we live every day properly and to God.
Like.....
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Gal 3:24+25 The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:2+3 This would I learn of you, recieved you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing by faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect in the flesh?
1 John 2:3 Here we will know if we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keep not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
On one hand...Paul admonishes us to not try to be right by trying to do so by fleshly adherence to outward law obeyment.
I can attest to the fact that I recieved the Holy Spirit by not obeying any laws, as at that time I did not even know about a Saturday Sabbath.
But we are told his people will keep the commandments, and if thay do not they do not even know him.
Is keeping his commandments referring to the 10 Commandments, or to the commands that he gave us while here?
I am pulled in both directions.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-28-2006, 05:53 PM

And then we have Jesus's disciples doing work on the Sabbath, albeit, not laborous work.
So I think that what we really need to do is to examine what God has asked of us in general.
The whole law was summed up in his 2 commands, which was to love God with all our heart, mind, body, and soul, and to love others as ourselves.
This is what he is requiring of us.
He made it obvious that he does not want fleshly adherences, which has no love in it, as he made it obvious to the Pharisees and Saducees.
I also see that God has an eternal law, which is carried out by the born again.
Because...I know that it is unacceptable to be boinking my neighbor or to steal their grill.
I also know that it is unacceptable to be getting wildly drunk, which leads to much sin.
I do not know this because the 10 commandments are written down on my forearm but on my heart.
The law which is etched in my heart condemns me without having it written down to look at.
Then if I do commence in the participation of such actions; I know that I sinned, as guilt is placed upon me.
There is no commandment about not becoming drunk. Yet when I do so I know that I sinned.
There is no commandment about listening to music. but when a song about sex and mischief comes on, I know not to listen to it.
I think that was the point of Spirit vs. flesh that Paul was pointing too.
What do you all think?

shammah (shammah)

02-28-2006, 06:00 PM

Thanks, kingsent. Here's a thought for everyone to consider.

>>I am pulled in both directions.<<

That's a sign of honesty, because nowadays it is very hard to know what's true. Yes, we want to all examine the Bible, but it's clear from the results that we all have different interpretations. Is it possible to know the answer?

The Scriptures say that the church is the pillar and support of the truth. Most everyone believes the Scriptures are the pillar and support of the truth, but the Scriptures say the church is. The question everyone then asks is, which church?

My answer is, the church. John said something that is applicable to every church: "The anointing will lead you (not an individual you, the Greek is plural here) into all things, and it is true, and not a lie."

The problem is that it is difficult to find a church that can be led by anything. Almost all are led by a written down set of doctrines and by-laws, and they cannot change. It is also difficult to find a church that God would want to lead. The only ones that Christ said he would lead were those who deny themselves, take up their crosses daily, and follow him. No one else can be his disciple. (That's just what he said.)

The answer, then, is to find other disciples that will follow Christ together with you. They need to put down their own opinions and learn together. It doesn't matter whether they start out keeping a Saturday Sabbath or not. If they will follow the anointing, then at some point he will lead them into all things, either relieving them of Saturday Sabbath keeping or leading them into it.

continued...

shammah (shammah)

02-28-2006, 06:02 PM

The reason arguments go on and on is because so few know about or are willing to do the thing God has given to find truth, for disciples, together as the church, to follow Christ and the anointing that flows to the body. Since both sides are so often unwilling to lay down their opinion and join the other so that they can seek God together, God ignores both because division grieves him. Since everyone is so busy reaching the world that they're not willing to gather together with just the disciples (or at least those who appear to be disciples), the goats and wolves outnumber the sheep and make sure that the sheep have no opportunity to be led by the Great Shepherd.

That's the problem. It's also why I'm so willing to quote the 2nd century church as well as the Bible. They were unified then, by their own testimony having one mind and one heart and speaking as though they had one mouth all across the western world.

If we're not willing to do the above and thus obtain the guidance of God, we'll just keep having the same divisive groups and the same tired old arguments.

I can testify from experience that what I said above works. You can view the results for yourself at www.rosecreekvillage.com (http://www.rosecreekvillage.com).

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-28-2006, 06:14 PM

Last point.......

Beyond these, there are other things that we are warned against not partaking in, which is to mix in paganism along with discipleship.
These are gravely warned against by him in his message to the 7 congregations in Revelations.
These actions are called the deeds of the Nicolations, which he hates.
Those who do so and do not repent will be deemed unworthy.
And........
Scripture makes it obvious that the man of lawlessness is the pope. He is in cahoots with Satan, as he gains his seat from him.
I really think that we all need to work this out together...................
The beast from the Sea in Revelations is the Holy roman Empire, which lasted 1260 years. If you do not believe this please do not argue with me, as I know that it is.
The part that I believe that we really need to focus on is the mark of this beast...666.
Again ...I know that this refers to the pope and the latin kingdom.
I also know those that are worshipping this church and its ways are worshipping Satan in disguise, which I was shown in a vision to me by God, which I have listed on this site.
I also know that the mark is spiritual.
But what is it that people who are worshipping this false system are recieving as a mark?
What is the distinguishing mark that God sees?
Can it be Sabbath adherence?
(note:I cannot say that at some time there will not be a physical mark to go along with the spiritual. But i know that God is pointing to the spiritual.)

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

02-28-2006, 06:54 PM

Know what I am saying?
There is a reason that there are tares and wheat. There is something that God sees which distinguishes them.
The tares are doing this.......as they look like wheat from outward appearance.
The wheat is doing this........
Knowing that the pope is the king of tares...
He looks all Godlike, he says Godlike things, but what makes him the king of tares?
What is the mark?
A mark of disobediance?
What?

godchild (godchild)

02-28-2006, 07:07 PM

kingsent, I believe by prayerful and thoughtful searching, you have received your answer.
We are promised blessings when we obey. See what happens (blessings happen in your life) while worshiping on the (Saturday) Sabbath for say, a month. Then see what happens (blessings) when you worship on (Sunday). I belive if Jesus meant for us to change the commandments He (1) would have gone to the temple (as his Apostles did) on Sunday. Did He? Look it up. (2) He would not have said "I do the will of My Father". What was the will of God? Look it up.
Let me clarify one thing. When I am speaking of blessings, I am not saying physical blessings (that would be tempting God) but spiritual ones, the peace in your heart, mind and soul that you are looking for. God is faithful to answer our prayers when they are in His Will, which is the best FOR us, BECAUSE He loves us.

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-01-2006, 12:15 AM

Thank you Shammah
Sorry i thought you was quoting the letter of barnabas as scripture! and i also agree with you that we need to let the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth. Thekingsent_again said he is pulled in both directions, i believe the Apostle paul was saying that we have been set free from the {613} laws of moses, Not the 10 commandments the Apostle James calls the law of liberty that we will be judged by, he also said if we break one we broke them all, this includes the 4th, Please tell me just how do we get around that? Brother ezekiel_37 said JESUS became our Sabbath, Not one day a week but EVERYDAY. The Bible says the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few, What do laborers do? They labor, they work. So if everyday is indeed the Sabbath than when do we labor or work in this great the harvest? i feel ther is no time for rest right now, but we are commanded to set one day aside according to the word of God, and all scripture points to the 7th day Sabbath, i believe our rest in Christ will be when we finalely make it into that city, and God himself will wipe away every tear from our eyes. and we will find rest for our souls!!! right now we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembleing. Becouse our salvation is our eternal rest. Yours in Messiah
truthfinder

shammah (shammah)

03-01-2006, 01:29 PM

>>Not the 10 commandments the Apostle James calls the law of liberty that we will be judged by, he also said if we break one we broke them all, this includes the 4th, Please tell me just how do we get around that?<<

We don't get around that. It's an interesting suggestion that James is referring to only the 10 commandments, but there's nothing to indicate that. That's just a guess.

Y'shua described what he meant by fulfilling (lit. expanding or filling up) the law in Matt 5. He gave many examples through the last half of the chapter. Those included both laws from the 10 commandments and other laws. He treated them all the same, so I don't believe distinguishing them, some as gone, some as still here, is wise.

The early church said that the apostles handed down that we are to enter into rest and keep perpetual Sabbath. Since it was the RCC that re-instituted Sabbath-keeping, albeit on Sunday, and that was many hundreds of years later, and there's no indication that the church kept the Sabbath before that, I tend to believe them that sanctification of each day by living in the rest of Christ and in holiness is the expansion or filling up of the Sabbath command that we are supposed to keep.

So, that's my answer. I don't think that's "getting around" anything.

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-02-2006, 12:40 AM

I hear you brother and respect your ancer. But why dose it say in Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them; 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 10:18 Now where remission of these is, their is no more offering for sin.
Ok God says here that will write his Laws in our hearts and in our minds Right? And he,s talking to NT Christians becouse he says we will have boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. in V 19, Right? Their was no blood of Jesus in the OT. So we know he,s talking to us. Their is only Two sets of Laws God gave us that i can think of. thats the {613} Laws of Moses and the 10 Commandments. So which set of these Laws do you believe he wrote in our hearts and in our minds??? It can not be the 613 Laws of moses according to GAL 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But yet in 1 john 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments, WHAT COMANDMENTS???

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-02-2006, 12:44 AM

Again 1 john 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him, WOW!!! I believe this to be one of the most Powerful scriptures in the whole Bible. This scripture alone tells us just who is a True Christian and who is not. If you are a True Christian and Truly know the God you serve you will keep his commandments, And if you dont than your a liar, and the Truth which is Christ is not in you. Rom 8:9 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his!!! My God thats so deep! And James did distinguish which law he was talking about becouse he quoted two of the Ten commandments, James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not Kill. Now if thou commit not adultery, yet if thou Kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. The law of liberty has to be the 10 commandments, becouse the 613 laws of moses called the school master has been nailed to the tree with Christ 2000 years ago, and the apostle James the brother of Christ is talking to NT Christians about a law we will be judged by, and he quoted to commandments out of it. so what elese can he possiable be talking about here??? See people no problem with the 10 commandments intel it comes to the 4th! Than everyone screams were not under the law more.

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-02-2006, 01:37 AM

It all comes down to one question, do we keep the Commandments of God or not Point Blank! and that my brother is according to each mans heart. as for me i will keep all 10 of them, it Truly blows my mind that NT Christians will keep one of the 613 laws of moses with no problem by Tithing 10% of their hard earded income, But fight so hard against the Sabbath Commandment written in the law of liberty, The Law that sets us Christians free!!! I love you Brother
Truth

ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)

03-02-2006, 04:08 AM

So truth....
What's new...

How do you plan to celebrate Passover and...if I may ask...which date are you celebrating it on.

Thank-you
in Jesus Christ's name

shammah (shammah)

03-02-2006, 02:27 PM

So which set of these Laws do you believe he wrote in our hearts and in our minds???

I've said this over and over. Y'shua said he did not come to abolish the law, but to bring it to fullness. Then he explained what he meant. He expanded the law not to murder into a law not even to be angry with your brother. He expanded the law not to commit adultery into a law not to look to lust. He expanded the law not to break an oath into a law not to break any of your words.

He did not just fill up or expand the ten commandments, but all laws. Look at Matt 5. He did not distinguish the laws on murder and adultery from any other.

We have another example in Paul's writings in 1 Cor 9. The filling up of the command about oxen treading corn is that those who sow spiritual things should be allowed to reap physical support. So even the law about oxen treading corn still applies, but in it's filled up form, not in it's fleshly old covenant form.

The laws on foods still apply, but not to food. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, Paul said, but God will destroy both it and them. God doesn't care about food, just as he doesn't care about oxen. He gave that command about us.. We are to fellowship with those who ruminate on the Word of God and who part from the world.

This is what is written on the heart in the New Covenant.

As the writer of Hebrews said, where there is a change of the priesthood, there is of necessity also a change of law (Heb 7:12).

There is simply nothing to back up your assertion that the law of liberty is the 10 commandments distinguished from the others. Y'shua, in speaking of the filling up of the law in Matt 5, makes no distinction, and he tells us to keep and teach the least of them, but in their filled up form, not in the old covenant, fleshly way. Spiritual people can receive the expanding new wine of the new commandments, which was impossible for the old wine skins that did not have the refreshing of the Spirit.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

03-02-2006, 05:24 PM

Here is a thought.....

Paul kept on pointing out the diffrence between trying to please God by fleshly law adherences and trying to please God by Spirit.
This was his obvious basis for going off on the Scribes and Pharisees.
Not only were they keeping some laws and not others but they were not doing it in love but maliciously.
They had no problem with stoning people and had a problem in forgiving someone. Thus, their hearts were evil.
For some reason most people cannot discern what God means by worshipping in Spirit and worshipping in the flesh.
Lets say that I strain as hard as I can to do no work or to go anywhere on Saturdays.
Is this not a fleshly adherence with no heart?
Is that acting like I am in bondage to make shure that I do not do,,,,,,or else?
That action of not doing is not out of love but fear. Bondage returns and I fall back into fleshly law adhering to become right.
I think in saying that the law was expanded could also be said for the Sabbath.
Because.....Is it not better to live for God everyday or to set apart one day?
Again...I think that is where the Spirit vs. flesh comes in.
Because...I recieved the Holy Spirit by obeying no law. This proves that Sabbath adhering had nothing to do with my becoming saved.
I got "right" by the "Spirit". So what sense does it make to become right by fleshly adherence after I had already become "right" by the "Spirit?"
See my point?

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

03-02-2006, 05:43 PM

I think Paul could have said," Hello, why are you guys such knuckleheads? You recieved salvation, which was your receipt of the Holy Spirit by adhering to no laws whatsoever. But now after recieving salvation you are trying to obey law's for what reason? God already saved you so what in the world do you think that obeying the law will add to what God already did for you?"
See what I am saying?
You can even look back into Daniel 7 where the pope is obviously being referred to, as the little horn that comes out from the roman empire.
He thinks to change time and law.
Well, he actually did change time and law. So how can it say that he would think so and not do so; when he did so?
Because his law changing does not matter to those who recieved salvation by the spirit, as the Spirit saved and not law.
We are free to obey God by Spirit and not by flesh. Walking by the Spirit ELIMINATES all fleshly law adhering, as neither has anything to do with each other.
If we were made "right" by the Spirit and then return to fleshly law adherence; then we fell from grace.
See what I am saying?

shammah (shammah)

03-02-2006, 09:55 PM

I'll get back to the messages by kingsent when I have more time. One quick note, since I ran across this today.

Ignatius, head pastor of the church in Antioch until he was martyred around AD 110, wrote, "...those who were brought up in the ancient order of thing have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord's day" (Letter to the Magnesians 9).

Now, I know that Ignatius' writings aren't Scripture, but there is not much doubt that he was appointed to his position by the apostle John. How likely is it, since the Revelation is the only writing in the NT that mentions the Lord's Day, that Ignatius didn't know what was meant by the Lord's Day, when he was pastor of a church started by Paul, appointed to that position by John, during the time Revelation was written?

He may not have written Scripture, but when it comes to the meaning of the phrase "the Lord's day," and to the interpretation of Scriptures, there is hardly a better source.

shammah (shammah)

03-02-2006, 10:25 PM

>>If we were made "right" by the Spirit and then return to fleshly law adherence; then we fell from grace.
See what I am saying?<<

Yes, it's what Paul said.

The expansion of the Law, Christ's new Law, is written on the heart. It can only be known and walked in by the Spirit, for walking by the Spirit is at the very heart of the New Covenant.

shammah (shammah)

03-02-2006, 10:34 PM

godchild (godchild)

03-02-2006, 11:29 PM

king, maybe this will help you. There are eternal laws, and temporary laws. The eternal laws are the Ten Commandments. We cannot stop Loving the Lord our God. We cannot start worshipping other Gods. We cannot covet. We cannot steal. Do you see what I mean?

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-03-2006, 02:45 AM

What do you think of this?

Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries The Second Century A.D.
EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. It illustrates the apostasy that Paul the Apostle foretold of when he spoke about a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640. God Bless Truth

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-03-2006, 02:56 AM

Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Third Century A.D.

------------------------------------------
EGYPT (OXYRHYNCHUS PAPYRUS) (200-250 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).
EARLY CHRISTIANS-C 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

AFRICA (ALEXANDRIA) ORIGEN
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

PALESTINE TO INDIA (CHURCH OF THE EAST)
As early as A.D. 225 there existed lallrge bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India. Mingana, "Early Spread of Christianity." Vol.10, p. 460.

INDIA (BUDDHIST CONTROVERSY), 220 A.D.)
The Kushan Dynasty of North India called a famous council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath. Some had been so impressed by the writings of the Old Testament that they had begun to keep holy the Sabbath. Lloyd, "The Creed of Half Japan," p. 23.

EARLY CHRISTIANS
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34

shammah (shammah)

03-03-2006, 03:05 AM

Hi, TF.

I think you have to check on who wrote the books you're quoting. I read through one once that made me mad as spit, because it was pack full of lies and distortion.

I do recognize a couple names. For example, Jeremy Taylor was a Quaker, pretty neat guy. You have to check who was quoting him, because he would have called Sunday a Sabbath, being a Quaker. So you have to make sure that the two halves of the quote there, with the ellipse (...) between them, really go together. My guess is that the second statement is not a reference to the Sabbath of the Jews, but to the Sabbath of the Christians, Sunday.

That's still a misreading of the early church, because they didn't consider the Lord's Day a Sabbath. They did "keep" that day, but as a festival, not as a Sabbath.

From that same Magnesians 9 of Ignatius:

"But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner...and after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival."

See, here, if I was a dishonest historian, I could quote Ignatius as though he was a 7th day Sabbath keeper right here. People do things like that, quoting him out of context, ignoring what they truly said. It was only a paragraph earlier that he said not to observe the Sabbath, and by spiritually observing it, he meant "rejoicing in the meditation of the Law," "admiring the workmanship of God," and he meant for that to be done every day, because that was the early Christian Sabbath.

The fact is, there is no other history to draw from than what I'm quoting you. The people who claim the early church kept the Sabbath are either ignorant of the pre-Nicene writings or they are purposely deceitful, because the testimony is 100% in one direction with no exceptions.

Find the original sources that these men reference in their footnotes or bibliographies, and I will show you in context what they really said. For someone to say "The Gentil Christians observed also the Sabbath" is utter nonsense. It's not true.

shammah (shammah)

03-03-2006, 03:22 AM

TF,

I looked up Johann Karl Ludwig Gieseler, and Wikipedia says, "he excels these and all other contemporaries in the fulness and accuracy of his information." I'll have to find a way to obtain his church history, vol. 1, and see the context of that quote, because no honest historian believes that the Gentile Christians of the 2nd century kept the Jewish Sabbath.

I am just seeing your 2nd post, however, and that's more helpful, and explains some of the problem.

Origen is among your quotes, and I've read a lot of him. He's not a 7th day Sabbath keeper. He wrote, "By the grace of the Holy Spirit...there are now countless multitudes of believers who...are most firmly persuaded that neither ought circumcision to be understood literally, nor the rest of the Sabbath..." (De Principiis II:7:3). The context of that quote is his rejoicing that God has poured out the Holy Spirit on all believers under the New Covenant rather than just a few, as in the old.

Therefore, if I could get my hands on a copy of his Homily on Numbers 23, which I can't, I guarantee you what the context is there, because it fits early Christian theology. Heb 4:9 says there is a rest remaining to the people of God, and that rest is the Sabbath rest of Christ, which is a perpetual Sabbath that we enter into.

See, don't be fooled. I quoted Justin in a post above, who was careful to say we don't keep a Jewish Sabbath. However, further down, he says they do observe the Sabbath, but it is the spiritual, perpetual Sabbath of the Christians.

The Christians did consider themselves Sabbath keepers, but they kept the fullness of the Sabbath.

In my post directly above, you can see how Ignatius could be quoted as a 7th day Sabbath keeper, but it would not be honest. He wanted it kept in the spiritual manner, not by resting (which he specifically says), but by living in holiness and meditating on God.

A couple more in the next post

shammah (shammah)

03-03-2006, 03:37 AM

Ok, from your 2nd post, which is the only one with early sources:

>>Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father<<

2 things: one, there's no good way to check on this. What's this from? There's lots of Papyri from oxyrhynchus, and much of it is gnostic.

If it were Christian, it would be meaningless, because any early Christian would agree that you should keep the real Sabbath, which is the fullness of the Law, a perpetual Sabbath in which you sanctify every day to the Lord.

>>Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands<<

This you quote from the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles. It belongs to the late 4th century, and it's a time when Sunday could have been called the Sabbath, because that's pretty late. However, in this case, it's a quote from Ignatius, the very same quote I gave 2 posts above. It's a reference to keeping the Christian Sabbath, a daily observance of meditation on the Word.

The one from Origen I addressed last post.

>>conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping)<<

The only Church of the East I know is the Assyrian Orthodox Church of the East, which is basically the Catholic Church of Iran. It has 3 congregations in the US, only one of the English speaking. I've been to it; it's in Sacramento. The Church of the East does not keep the Sabbath, so I don't know why that's said like that. George Lamsa belongs to that church.

Your next one was Buddhist monks keeping the Sabbath because they liked the Old Testament. Interesting, but irrelevant.

The last one in your second post is someone's opinion again, and we have no idea why they think that. There's no evidence for it.

Did you notice no one is quoting the famous, well-known writers of the 2nd century, such as Justin, Tatian, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Polycarp or either Clement? Those any of us could reference. Obscure Egyptian papyri are not the way to find out what common practice was.

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-03-2006, 03:54 AM

Wow thanks
i can see where your coming from now, i have to go home now and do a few things, God Bless and Thanks again
Truth

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

03-03-2006, 01:02 PM

Godchild.........

I understand your point.
But this does not change the fact that I did not recieve the Holy Spirit by obeying the Sabbath, as at the time, I did not even know there was one.
And if obeying it is a necessity to recieve salvation then Jesus died for no reason at all because I could have been saved by simply obeying it, which is not the case.
Sabbath adhering has nothing to do with recieving the Holy Spirit...ie...salvation.
I think Jesus explained that the whole of all the laws, ever, were summed up in 2 simple Commandments.
Love others and God with all your mind, heart and soul.
This adherence has a much greater payoff then making sure I do nothing on Saturdays.
And from someone looking at the 2 diffrent adheres.....
" Look at that guy over there. He is one of those Christians and makes sure he does nothing on Saturdays."
" Look at that guy over there. He does no harm to anyone and teaches people the true gospel so that others can be saved."
See what I mean?
And by looking at those 2 commandments, we can peer back into history and see who was who and who was serving who.
The pope and his church...well....it's history obviously proves who they were serving.
Martin Luther's booklet ...the Jews and their lies...proves who he was serving.
Those who have been born of God WILL become more and more Jesus like, as they will adhere to these 2 Commandments more and more.
On Martin Luther.....if he was becoming more and more Jesus like then he should have also been becoming more and more loving towards others...but.....

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

03-03-2006, 01:29 PM

What "I THINK" that we should be doing...on the Sabbath issue....
We should still come to an understanding that it is God's special day where Christians are to "congregate".
In this I have a problem because I have no one to "congregate" with.
Those adhering to mr 666's ways "congregate" on his day of worship.
But since mr 666's way's have tread down all of the Christian world, there is but a few who know to be seperate from this apostasy.
And these were eliminatted systematically during his churches 1260 year reign.
Then her children, while rejecting her, accepted her ways and taught them.
So we are left with a worldly apostate mess.
So if ya all want to come over and congregate on Saturdays; just tithe me your beautiful wives and 10% of your income.(kidding...of course)
( but see....if wew were congregating on Saturday and I needed to run out and pick up some burgers....would it be unlawful for me to do so?)....I do not think so.

thekingsent1_again (thekingsent1_again)

03-03-2006, 02:32 PM

When Jesus was rebukking the Pharisees about the Sabbath......
He said he was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
He said it was lawful that his disciples were picking wheat on the Sabbath.
He said it was lawful to pull your livestock out of a ditch if they fell in on the Sabbath.
So I think that we all have to decide if what we are doing on the Sabbath is both lawful and good.
I think that most of us understand that we should be "congregating" on Saturday.
I think that we should not be doing "regular" shopping on Saturday, out of respect.
But what else?

truthfinder (truthfinder)

03-03-2006, 11:47 PM

Yes theKingsent, thank you
this is what i am trying to say! we need to congregate on the 7th day, and yes shammah we are to rest in Christ 7 days a week, read the word 7 days a week, study teach and fellowship 7 days a week, help the poor and broken hearted 7 days a week, but the 7th day is still and always will be a spechel day to keep separate onto God and rest from our labor, Please think of this ok, Why did Paul make the gentiles waite 7 full days intel the next sabbath for them to hear the word of God for the first time, Why dident he just come back the next day or some time during the week, what if one of them died before the next sabbath? wouldent they have died lost according to the Bible? and why was almost the whole city waiting for paul on the next sabbath? all i can think of is it must have been their day of rest and no one had to work that day right?

godchild (godchild)

03-04-2006, 04:45 AM

(This is not in response to truthfinder who is correct, but to king in his response to me), NO. NO. No. Jesus wants us to come just as we are. He said, "I came not to call the righteous, but the sinners, to repentance." That is everyone of us. Salvation is not offered to perfect people because the only perfect man who ever lived was Jesus Christ. Have you never heard of 'being convicted by the Holy Spirit'. Jesus knows His own, He bought us with His life, the God who loved us enough to die for all of us. I didn't realize you were confused about this issue. We all sin, and we all will, until that which is perfect (Who is Christ Jesus) has come, and then we will changed from our corruptible human bodies into incorruptible. God loves you just the way you are. We were made for His good pleasure. Jesus didn't just die for the sins committed at the time He died. The idea makes no sense. We weren't even there. He died for all sins for all mankind, from the beginning to the end. It is the Holy Spirit that helps me, nothing in myself. I only try to be in His will. Otherwise it would mean nothing to Him because it is to Him we give the glory, not ourselves.

(Message edited by godchild on March 03, 2006)

(Message edited by godchild on March 03, 2006)

godchild (godchild)

03-04-2006, 04:51 AM

I would suggest that you step out in faith and say to God, "I don't have the answers. I am yours, and it's up to you. Do with me what you will."
God din't give the Ten Commandments in order to be a punisher, or a hard taskmaster. He is none of those things. He gave the commandments for OUR good, and for HIS glory. God does not change. He cannot change and say, "Okay, you do it. However you want to do it is okay with me." That would change who He is. He will not and cannot change who He is and give that power to another. That would make Him a liar.

godchild (godchild)

03-04-2006, 04:54 AM

I urge you to go to your Bible and find everything that talks about who God is, prayfully, and placing yourself in His care. He is faithful. If he is not, then He is not and cannot be God. Let go and let God. He wants to take your burdens from you, not add to them.

godchild (godchild)

03-04-2006, 04:59 AM

Do you know what 'agape' love means? It means undeserved, unearned, simply because you are His creation. Jesus said if you are not willing to hate (meaning love less) your mother, your brother; then you do not love Him. He wants the same from you. To trust that He knows better what is best for you than you ever could understand.

godchild (godchild)

03-04-2006, 05:05 AM

King, Let me share this with you. Most of us are raised that to behave brings rewards, to disobey brings punishment. This is not how God operates. You need to recondition your mind. Let His Spirit wash all that out of you. I was standing in my kitchen one day fussing at myself as I used to do all the time. I heard a voice say, "xxxxxx, who are you talking to? You are not talking to Me." This was God's voice saying stop worrying. Let me do the work in you to become what I want you to be. When that happened it was like the Lord was chuckling at my foolishness. I laughed then too. And felt assurance that I am okay, just me, but loved nonetheless.

godchild (godchild)

03-04-2006, 05:17 AM

Do you remember your Mother on Mother's Day; do something special, buy her flowers or a card or take her to dinner. Do you do this out of obligation or out of love? I hope you do it out of love. This is the kind of love God wants from us. Because He is our Heavenly Father. The apostles and Jesus told the people don't obey because of the law and your fear of punishment, do it because you want to please Him, and praise Him, and glorify Him. To show Him you love Him.

shammah (shammah)

03-04-2006, 03:17 PM

>>Please think of this ok, Why did Paul make the gentiles waite 7 full days intel the next sabbath for them to hear the word of God for the first time, Why dident he just come back the next day or some time during the week, what if one of them died before the next sabbath? wouldent they have died lost according to the Bible? and why was almost the whole city waiting for paul on the next sabbath? all i can think of is it must have been their day of rest and no one had to work that day right?<<

You're referring to the end of Acts 13. If you'll read that, you'll find that the ones who were convinced went with Paul right away, not waiting till the following week (v. 49). The rest waited until the next Sabbath, because that was the next time they would be together with Paul.

There's not any doubt that Paul used the synagogues, which met on the Sabbath day, to evangelize the Jews and their Gentile proselytes.

Also, you are quite right that for these Jews and Gentile proselytes, Saturday would have been their day of rest. However, that doesn't tell us anything about how the Christians looked at the Sabbath. You have to look at what we've already been looking at to find that.

godchild (godchild)

03-05-2006, 12:53 AM

"What does the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" mean?
Jesus had just rejected one of the Pharisees' rulings on how a person was to keep the Sabbath day. Old Testament law simply said that a person was not to work on the seventh day and should keep it holy. The rabbis, debating what "work" involved, had developed a host of special Sabbath rules. For instance, spitting on soft ground was work, for the earth might be turned by the spittle. In Matthew 12 the disciples' act of plucking heads of grain that grew near a path fell under the rabbi's definition of work.
Jesus rejected this interpretation as missing the intent of Sabbath law. He pointed out that God had permitted a more serious violation of ritual law on one occasion when David and his men had been famished (12:3-4; 1 Sam.21). In that case, the priests who served in the Lord's house had worked on the Sabbath (Matt.12:5). But the saying in question means simply that Jesus did not rest his case on such arguments.
-to be cont..