A Rational Explanation of the Trinity

[irichc (212.78.157.93)]

We have three axioms:

1) There is no thought without a thinking subject, and vice versa, there is no thinking subject without a thought.

2) Nobody can be his own thought, since it implies a contradiction between subject and object. The subject must be always greater than the object.

3) Nothing is without an activity.

And I infer the following:

a) "The truth is the truth" is the first truth.

b) It can't exist without an activity, so it must be thought by someone.

c) The Father thinks it, and that truth is the Son.

d) The Father is greater than the Son. Nevertheless, they are the same reality, as far as there is no thought without a thinking subject and there is no thinking subject without a thought.

e) The act of thinking itself is the Holy Spirit.

f) So, I understand the Trinity as "The Thinker (Father) in the Act of Thinking (Holy Spirit) the Thought (Son)".

* * *

I.

"'The truth is the truth' is true" is a part of the set of truths, since it is true, but only in a tangencial way, as far as it doesn't need any other truth as a fundament and it exists necessarily.

Every truth must fulfill three properties: 1) coherence with itself, 2) coherence with other truths and 3) inference from other truths. God only fulfills 1) and 2). Thus, it is part and it isn't part of the set of truths.

I'm inclined to think that God lacks a basis. If he had one, it would be someting logically previous to God, simpler than him, more elemental and, therefore, greater. In other words: truth is abstractive, that is to say, negative. That which is more composed is more contingent (it has more conditions of existence), innecessary or superfluous than that which is simpler.

II.

Trinity solves the following problem: How is possible the "creatio ex nihilo" of material things from the divine, inmaterial plenitude?

Gnostics proposed a prolation or pronunciation of God to the material world. Before this prolation occurred, it would have been some unavoidable Silence and Abyss between the Creator and the creature.

Catholic ortodoxy opposes to this conception the coeternity of the Word, engendered from the same substance of God before any time was. The divine Verb is, previous to its incarnation, the invisible Image of the Creator, but it is also the invisible or rational image of every creature. It acts as a mediator between both realities.

Truth would be inactive and it could not create anything if it wasn't, at the same time, expansive. The self-sufficient truth, then, also implies the true. So, Trinity can be condensed in this sentence: "'The truth (Father) is the truth' (Son) is true (Holy Spirit)". It doesn't exist a simpler way to express the first true proposition, the unfounded fundament of everything.

If Islam denies that this proposition is true, then Islam is wrong and leads to falsity, which can't be attributed to God, but to the doctrines of men. If Islam thinks that there is a simpler procedure in order to express this first true proposition, may Islam show it as soon as possible.

III.

1) God didn't create the world arbitrarily, but according to ideas supported by the Truth.

2) However, the Father can't be fully identified with that coeternal ideas, since they presuppose a creative intention and a preceptive order. In the other hand, the will of Creation is an accidental one compared to the eternal, unengendered and self-subsistent potency of God.

Plus, God's providence depends on his will, while his will doesn't depend on providence.

Finally, ideas are naturally conceivable, but God is absolutely inconceivable.

3) Christ (the Son) is the sum of all the ideas that tend to Creation, and he is also its engendered fundament: the Good, the Truth, the Life.

God, nevertheless, is Christ's fundament.

4) God, an absolutely undetermined potency, engenders the Truth, an absolutely determined potency. At last, it engenders the Spirit, which is the infinite and absolutely determined act, as far as it is coherent with the Truth.

Cheers.

Daniel.


Theological Miscellany (in Spanish):

http://www.miscelaneateologica.tk

[QWERTY (67.175.205.19)]

DANIEL

PLEASE, SO I CAN UNDERSTAND IT, SAY IT AGAIN FOR DUMMIES

[Anonymous (217.157.121.33)]

Excuse me, where is the rational bit? I must have missed it..

[GodsServant (205.188.117.20)]

<FONT SIZE="+2"><CENTER><U>The Trinity</U></CENTER></FONT>

- Now this is the Christian faith: * that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity;

- Neither confusing the Persons one with the other, * nor making a distinction in their nature.

- For the Father is a distinct Person; and so is the Son; * and so is the Holy Spirit.

- Yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit possess one Godhead, * co-equal glory, co-eternal majesty.

- As the Father is, so is the Son, * so also is the Holy Spirit.

- The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, * the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

- The Father is infinite, the Son is infinite, * the Holy Spirit is infinite.

- The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, * the Holy Spirit is eternal.

- Yet they are not three eternals, * but one eternal God.

- Even as they are not three uncreated, or three infinites, * but one uncreated and one infinite God.

- So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, * the Holy Spirit is almighty.

- Yet they are not three almighties, * but they are the one Almighty.

- Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, * the Holy Spirit is God.

- Yet they are not three gods, * but one God.

- Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, * the Holy Spirit is Lord.

- Yet there are not three lords, * but one Lord.

- For just as Christian truth compels us to profess that each Person is individually God and Lord, * so does the Catholic religion forbid us to hold that there are three gods or lords.

- The Father was not made by any power; * He was neither created nor begotten.

- The Son is from the Father alone, * neither created nor made, but begotten.

- The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, * neither made nor created nor begotten, but He proceeds.

- So there is one Father, not three; one Son, not three; * one Holy Spirit, not three.

- And in this Trinity one Person is not earlier or later, nor is one greater or less; * but all three Persons are co-eternal and co-equal.

- In every way, then, as already affirmed, * unity in Trinity and Trinity in unity is to be worshiped.

- Whoever, then, wills to be saved * must assent to this doctrine of the Blessed Trinity.

GOD BLESS

[Marie (65.231.183.152)]

GS -
Good post. Where's it from?

[GodsServant (205.188.117.20)]

Marie,

Actually I cannot remember where it is from. All I remember is I found it along time ago and really liked it. It explains the Trinity as best as I know of.

GOD BLESS

[Yaakov (68.205.186.217)]

Hi GodServant

I’ve never understood the Trinity before. As long as you are going to try to explain it, then I will give it another go to understand it.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">- Neither confusing the Persons one with the other, * nor making a distinction in their nature.
- For the Father is a distinct Person; and so is the Son; * and so is the Holy Spirit.</FONT>

This seems a contradiction to me. First you say that there is no distinction is in their nature. Your very next point says that they are distinct. How can there be no distinction, but they are distinct?

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">- The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, * the Holy Spirit is eternal.</FONT>

If the Son is eternal, then how was he born to Mary?

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">- Even as they are not three uncreated, or three infinites, * but one uncreated and one infinite God.</FONT>

Again, how can they be one infinite God, if your 3rd point says that they are 3 distinct entities?

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">- The Father was not made by any power; * He was neither created nor begotten.
- The Son is from the Father alone, * neither created nor made, but begotten.</FONT>

You’ve made a distinction here. Father was neither created or begotten, but Son was begotten. How can he be begotten, but eternal? Eternal means no beginning and no end.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">- And in this Trinity one Person is not earlier or later, nor is one greater or less; * but all three Persons are co-eternal and co-equal.</FONT>

Again, how can the three Persons be co-eternal and co-equal, if two weren’t begotten, but one was?

Thanks GS.

[GodsServant (205.188.117.20)]

Yaakov,

YOU WROTE:
<FONT COLOR="990033">This seems a contradiction to me. First you say that there is no distinction is in their nature. Your very next point says that they are distinct. How can there be no distinction, but they are distinct?</FONT>

They are one and the same, but they each serve a purpose. Think of this- the Holy Spirit is God. Maybe when Jesus died on the cross his Spirit was among us. Thus, the Spirit is God. When Jesus died on the cross people were able to be saved without having sacrifice animals any longer.

<FONT COLOR="990033">If the Son is eternal, then how was he born to Mary?</FONT>

The Son is also God. The Son was God in the flesh. Therefore, if the Son is God, then They are both eternal. Think of this- God was not created so therefore, if God was not created then His Son was not Created but is the Same. His Son is GOD but they are both the One and the same.

<FONT COLOR="990033">Again, how can they be one infinite God, if your 3rd point says that they are 3 distinct entities?</FONT>

Again, they are 3 distinct entities because each serves a purpose. God sent Jesus. God sends his Holy Spirit. They each served a purpose but are all the Same. Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are GOD. They are God in a different FORM, but they are all One and the same.

<FONT COLOR="990033">You’ve made a distinction here. Father was neither created or begotten, but Son was begotten. How can he be begotten, but eternal? Eternal means no beginning and no end.</FONT>

If the Son is God then he also is eternal. In other words, God created God in a matter of speaking. This is the reason that Jesus was begotten. But since Jesus is God he is also eternal.

<FONT COLOR="990033">Again, how can the three Persons be co-eternal and co-equal, if two weren’t begotten, but one was?</FONT>

The same goes here, they are all the same but serve a different purpose. God is the Holy Spirit, God is Jesus. God was not begotten so therefore Neither was His spirit. Jesus was begotten but Jesus is God because He was God in the flesh. In other words, Humans have to be born but our spirit existed before our bodies. Therefore, the same goes with Jesus. He was, and is, and always will be God. The reason he was begotten is because he had to be born in the Flesh. In the flesh we have to be born but in the spirit we are not born.

GOD BLESS

[Douglas (68.192.60.127)]

And how can they be equal if one of them said "I go to my father who is greater than I"?

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Humans have to be born but our spirit existed before our bodies. Therefore, the same goes with Jesus. He was, and is, and always will be God. The reason he was begotten is because he had to be born in the Flesh. In the flesh we have to be born but in the spirit we are not born.</FONT>
What's the difference between those who have his holy spirit and him? I don't have a bible with me but I wonder if Jesus was known from the foundations of the world like the brethern are.

I want to thank you for that post "GodsServant". Though I don't agree with parts of it I never thought about it that Jesus was not created but begotten into the creation. This shines light to me on a part of God I hadn't noticed before. Sweet. I don't know the full implications of this at the moment but my inner man knows it and it opens a lot up in my spirit. I hope God blesses you for that one! Blessed be the Lord our God, King of the Universe, who reveals things that are so simple but hidden to us until he creats a longing in us and opens our eyes! I don't think anything has felt this good in my spirit for a long time.

[Marie (63.184.136.34)]

The following link is to an article on the Doctrine of the Trinity and includes the Dogma of the Trinity, Proof of the Doctrine from scripture, and the Doctrine as Interpreted in Greek &amp; Latin Theology.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

GS:
In this article they included a quote from what you posted above. It looks like it's from the Athanasian Creed.

[Yaakov (68.205.186.217)]

Marie

I read part of that link. I thought these passages from the Old Testament section were interesting.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">The names Emmanuel (Isaias 7:14) and God the Mighty (Isaias 9:6) affirmed of the Messias make mention of the Divine Nature of the promised deliverer. Yet it seems that the Gospel revelation was needed to render the full meaning of the passages clear….

Nor indeed can it be said that the passage, even though it manifests some knowledge of a second personality in the Godhead, constitutes a revelation of the Trinity. <U>For nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person. Mention is often made of the Spirit of the Lord, but there is nothing to show that the Spirit was viewed as distinct from Jahweh Himself.</U> The term is always employed to signify God considered in His working, whether in the universe or in the soul of man. The matter seems to be correctly summed up by Epiphanius, when he says: <U>"The One Godhead is above all declared by Moses</U>, and the twofold personality (of Father and Son) is strenuously asuerted by the Prophets. <U>The Trinity is made known by the Gospel"</U> ("Haer.", Ixxiv).</FONT>

Both passages state that the Trinity was made known by the Christian bible. It is unknown in the Jewish bible. I agree with that.


GodsServant

Thanks for making the attempt, although I didn’t understand any of your answers. I have decided to abandon this issue instead of posting follow-up questions. The only thing I got out of your post was this <FONT COLOR="0000ff">“In other words, Humans have to be born but our spirit existed before our bodies.”</FONT> I will think on this.

[Yaakov (12.8.126.145)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">The only thing I got out of your post [GodsServant] was this “In other words, Humans have to be born but our spirit existed before our bodies.” I will think on this.</FONT>

For anyone that is interested, I checked out the Jewish position on whether souls always exist and are placed into bodies are they are born. There is no single or even majority position on this in Judaism. There are multiple rabbinic opinions with a lot of leeway for personal opinion. These differing viewpoints never merged into a single dogma. So, two Jews can have diametrically opposite opinions on this question. Some think there is a reservoir of souls somewhere, some say that all the souls that ever existed or will ever exist were at Mount Sinai as God spoke to the Jewish people, some say souls are created at birth in the body, etc. Then during the processing of these souls some say souls are reincarnated, some say souls reside forever in Gehenna, some say certain souls are extinguished, etc.

Judaism regards these issues as unknowable and thus makes almost no attempt to study them. If anyone is interested, here are a couple of links.

www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
www.mljewish.org/S.C.J/faq/12-08.html

[GodsServant (64.12.117.20)]

<CENTER><FONT SIZE="+1"><U>The Trinity</U></FONT></CENTER>


It is written, FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN,
THE FATHER,
THE WORD,
AND THE HOLY GHOST:
AND THESE THREE ARE ONE-1 Jn 5:7. There are three separate Persons of the Trinity. These three are illustrated here.

1. God, the Father.
2. God, the Son, which is Jesus. THE WORD is Jesus. It is written, HIS NAME (Jesus) IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD-Rev 19:13. Also it is written, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD (Jesus), AND THE WORD (Jesus) WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD (Jesus) WAS GOD. Note, Jesus is the Word and He is God. AND THE WORD (Jesus) WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US-Jn 1:1,14.
3. God, the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.

GOD BLESS

[Wyoming (199.141.125.33)]

Our problem is that we are looking for finite answers when we are dealing with The Infinite.

The stumbling block is that everybody in the first grade knows that 1 plus 1 plus 1 equals 3. (That's too obvious for us flatlanders.) Few people think of God as a multiplicity. How about 1 times 1 time 1 equals... yes, "1".

[bee (207.30.1.2)]

GodsServant,
I appreciate your last post &amp; how clearly you explain the Trinity in it. Thanks.
BLESS YOU!

[Anonymous (65.230.198.240)]

When I got saved I was told not to try to understand the Trinity, just to accept it; and now nearly 30 years later, I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY- IT NEVER HAS MADE ANY SENSE TO ME, AND HAS ALWAYS SOUNDED LIKE RELIGIOUS DOUBLE TALK, no matter how I approached it. That is why I have never attempted to explain it to somebody else.
I guess I just am not "spiritual" in the way I think. 3 does not equal one, and one does not equal 3, no matter how I try to do mental gymnastics with my finite little mind!

[Yaakov (12.8.126.145)]

Anon 65

Nice to know that my confusion about the trinity does not just stem from my Judaism.

[dcdc (138.88.141.221)]

I think man will never understand it until judgment day. Even, the Apostle's wanted to know who the "Father" was. That's why Jesus told them,
..."he that hath seen Me(Jesus) hath seen the Father..." See John 14.8-11. Man always wants proof. The proof is Jesus Himself. The Apostles and the all the people during Jesus' day were blessed to have seen the Father. We on the other hand will have to wait until judgement day.

[hillbilly (hillbilly)]

Well I like the explanation that I give to my kids at church because it is so simple that even my mind can grasp it.

The trinity is like an egg - there is a shell, the yoke and the egg whites. However, I don't think it is a perfect analogy. I relate the shell to the physical manifestation of Christ, the yoke (the center) to the "mind" of God (I'm not sure if I am using the right words here), and the egg whites to the Holy Spirit.

Tis a gift to be simple!

(Actually, when kids want to do Easter Egg Hunts, etc. this is a good thing to use and to explain the Trinity and to go into what Easter is really about.)

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

The Trinity:

God reveals Himself as One Divine Spirit who manifests Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is how the Bible reveals it.

Mark Scaliotti

[ohwretchedmanthatiam (ohwretchedmanthatiam)]

I enjoy attending different bible studies and looking at the different doctrines of men in trying to describe and define GOD. For no one is his counselor. Will people trying to define, rationalize, contradict Jesus/GOD who is and always has been Holy. If GOD has flesh it is in Jesus. We see the Bible teaches these three are one, not three separate things. I also am amazed at the Godhead. KJ Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So I see in discussions I ask if we error in our understanding will there be trinitarians and non trinitarians in Heaven? LOL The beauty is the discussions and sharing of the word to discuss it. I don't mean to teach false doctrines nor promote things in the Bible that are not true. It is one thing to error and find correction, discussion and reproof KJ 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

KJ Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Where were we when all the Son's of GOD sang for joy before the LORD, i.e. before satan fell? KJ Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? It is interesting to ask if satans name was separated as something other than a son of God. It does not describe him as one.

But it is hard for us to comprehend the things that are only privy to Jesus/GOD. When Jesus/GOD said He will not give his glory nor share it with another Isa 42 Isa 48 We see Jesus as GOD in the flesh? KJ John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I pray Jesus/GOD don't condem us for our feeble minded attempts to grasp Heavenly things which no man nor angel is privy to know.

Jesus/GOD Bless and make a way for us to have fellowship with Him as our counselor.

[kingdavid (kingdavid)]

I believe that while we are in these flesh bodies, on our current plane of conscienceness; we will not be able to fully comprehend or define God's complete nature.

[yaakov (yaakov)]

kingdavid

<font color="0000ff">I believe that while we are in these flesh bodies, on our current plane of conscienceness; we will not be able to fully comprehend or define God's complete nature.</font>

God is infinite, we are not. Even when our bodies are shed and we are all in Heaven, we will still be finite. I believe that God will always be beyond our ability to define completely.