IGNORANCE THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL

[shem]

I submit that ignorance of Truth (i.e. the Spiritual Knowledge of God) is the root cause of all evil and sin. For one simply cannot know the 'Way of Life' while in a state of Spiritual ignorance. It should be very clear, from merely observing the chaotic state of religions, that so-called holy books, such as the Bible, cannot reveal the single and eternal Truth of God. Simply cannot give Enlightenment!

Here are some superficial quotes to brighten your day:

“Isn't it curious that narrow-minded people are often the most thick-headed?” ~ Frank Baer

“He that knows nothing will believe anything.” ~ THOMAS FULLER

“Men deride what they do not understand and snarl at the good and beautiful because it lies beyond their sympathies.” ~ J.W. Goethe 1749-1832

“Well,” said the other, “thank God, I know but little of these things.”
“What,” exclaimed Orator Henley, “thank God! for your ignorance?”
“Yes I do Sir,” was the fierce retort, “what then?”
“Then,” says Henley, “you have a great deal to be thankful for.” ~
Daily British Whig, Kingston, Ontario, 4 November 1867

[yaakov2]

I disagree with your statement. There are many people, religious or not, that know how a good person is supposed to act, but yield to their selfish natures instead and do the wrong thing. Knowledge is not enough. A person needs to commit strength of will to do the right thing.

[shem]

As an example of blind ignorance, I wonder how many loving Christian families will be gathered together this Christmas to honour Jesus while devouring the flesh and blood of some innocent animal? Each Christmas calls for the mass slaughter of countless innocent victims, to satisfy the gluttonous appetites of so-called Christians.

[catholic_man]

Shem,

I would rather be a 'SO-CALLED' Christian than an atheist or agnostic. You apparently have some sort of gnostic view points...something that the early church (as taught directly by the apostles) stood against.

I do not understand you constant attacks. You must have some bitterness going back to your childhood.

[dodge]

Ignorance is not the Root of Evil. The Bible says that knowledge and imagination are the roots of evil. There was no "evil" or "good" until Adam and Eve ate of "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." (Gen. 2:9) Before that they were innocent as babes. When they ate, they were expelled from the Garden, because now they "knew," and were therefore, as God said, "...one of us."

In Gen. 8:21, God says "...the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Knowledge and imagination. Isn't that what religion attempts to crush in us?

[catholic_man]

Dodge,

AMEN BROTHER!!

This is what we call the 'Original Sin'.

I believe that God allows us to have certain knowledge about his workings (medical and scientific), but I have seen where people have so much money and material goods that they forget about God. Therefore, knowledge in and of itself is not sufficient enough to enter into a relationship with God. It takes faith.

Psalm 7:10 KJV "My defence is of God, which saveth the upright IN HEART."

Proverbs 30:8-9
"8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."

[catholic_man]

Dodge,

I agree with your quote straight from Genesis, too, about Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge. Shem apparently is NOT Christian, therefore, if we quote from the NT then he will throw it out immediately. Like I said, it takes FAITH to believe.

[yaakov2]

Shem

Are you saying that it is evil to eat meat?

[shem]

To All:

“How long, you [Spiritually] ignorant people, will you love ignorance? and scorners delight in their scorning? and fools hate [Divine] Knowledge (i.e. Gnosis)?” (PROV.1:22).

“He who trusts in his own heart (i.e. mind) is a fool, but he who Knows [Divine] Wisdom will be saved.” (PROV.28:26).

“Your iniquities have separated you (the majority) from God; your sins have hidden His Face from you, so that He will not hear. For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. Your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things.” (ISAIAH 59:2-3).

“They have not listened to My (Yahweh’s) Voice, but have followed the dictates of their own stubborn hearts.” (JER.9:13-14).

“They (the false teachers of religion) say to those who deny the [living] Lord: ‘You shall have peace’; and to those who follow their own stubborn hearts, they say: ‘No evil will come to you.’ But which of them has been present at the council of the Lord? Which of them has SEEN Him and HEARD His Word?” (JER.23:17-18).

“It is all you so-called priests that I (Yahweh) denounce. Day and night you stumble on, the false prophets stumbling with you. You are the ruin of the people, who perish for lack of [Spiritual] KNOWLEDGE. You have rejected Knowledge, so I reject you from My priesthood. You have forgotten the Divine Law of God, so I, also, will forget your followers.” (HOSEA 4:4-6)

“And now, you priests, these words are for you: If you will not listen to me (the living Lord) and open your minds to honour My Name, then I will curse your very blessings; indeed I have already cursed them because none of you pay heed to Me… You have all strayed from the Way, and caused many to stumble by your teaching.” (MAL.2:1-8).

“Their wickedness has blinded them. They do not know the Mysteries of God, thus they have no hope of the fruits of Holiness.” (WISDOM 2:21-22).

“There are those outside of us (initiates) who call themselves bishops or deacons, as if they had received their authority from God. They bend themselves to the judgements of worldly leaders. These people are dry canals.” (Coptic – Apocalypse of Peter, p.79:23-31).

“There shall be many who believe in My name and yet follow after evil and spread vain doctrine. And many will follow after them and their riches, and be subject unto their pride, and lust for drink, and bribery, and there shall be respect of persons among them. But they who desire to behold the Face of God, who respect not the persons of the rich sinners, and are not afraid to rebuke those who lead astray, they shall be crowned by the Father, for they are the sons of Wisdom and Faith.” (Epistle of the Apostles 37-38).

“There shall come forth another doctrine, and much confusion; and those who strive after their own [material] advancement shall bring forth an [Spiritually] unprofitable doctrine. And therein shall be a deadly corruption, and they shall teach it, and turn away from My [Spiritual] Law many who believe in Me (the living Lord), and thus cut them off from Eternal Life.” (Epistle of the Apostles 50).

[yaakov2]

Shem

I find it very odd that you said:

<font color="0000ff">It should be very clear, from merely observing the chaotic state of religions, that so-called holy books, such as the Bible, cannot reveal the single and eternal Truth of God. Simply cannot give Enlightenment!</font>

And then you proceed to give us quotes from the bible? What's up with that?

[shem]

Yaakov2,

What is odd about what I said? The Bible cannot REVEAL the Truth - I did not say that it does not talk abnout it! It cannot give 'Enlightenment' (i.e. the 'Beatific Vision' / 'Shekhinah') - only a genuine living Master can do this.

[shem]

Yaakov2,

Yes, it is very evil to kill animals. It is also forbidden to eat anything which contains blood, i.e. ALL animals! And by draining the blood out is NOT what was intended by this Eternal LAW!

[yaakov2]

Shem

Your post is contrary to what G-d told us in the Jewish bible. I will take G-d's word over yours.

[trainedobserver]

Ignorance of how to think is the root of all evil. By using the Scientific Method, Critical Thinking skills, and the tenets of logic and reason bequeathed to us by the great philosophers and thinkers of the past we can cure our ignorance by obtaining reliable information about the universe around us. Without the means to determine truth from error a person can be nothing but ignorant and easily lead to believe a lie.

Perhaps one of the greater displays of ignorance (The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed--American Heritage Dictionary) is when someone trusts "revealed knowledge" over science and reason. People aren't thinking about what they are doing. In most cases, what is taken for "revealed knowledge" comes from someone in an altered state of consciousness either from illness, stress(often dehydration), meditation, or what have you. People who have a subjective personal experience which is extraordinary often do not understand that their brains are capable of very vivid and intense hallucinatory experiences. These waking 'dreams' are most likely your sub or unconscious mind either running wild or as Jung suggests, making an attempt to communicate something to the conscious mind. Of course the message could be anything from 'clean up your act' to 'Aunt June really does hate your guts after all' but it is your Self, not some other.

[yaakov2]

TO

Using the scientific method and critical thinking, please tell me:
1) Is eating animals evil?
2) Is eating blood forbidden?
3) Should we drain blood from animals before eating them (assuming we are allowed to eat animals)?

[trainedobserver]

1) Easy: If the animal makes you sick, it's destructive(evil) give it to your neighbor. No just kidding. Toss it. Science can certainly tell us what is safe to eat. Hell, trial and error will do that. Did it kill "Mikey?", no? Then it's ok. Is it moral to kill a lower order living thing to maintain your life? I think the answer is in nature. Predator and prey are an important part of the cycle of life. Are we equipped to eat other animals? We are omnivores by our very nature. We can choose not to eat meat if we wish, but there is no compelling moral reason not to in my opinion. It is our nature.

2) I think it's done in some places for different reasons. Again, the health issue is what would make it 'forbidden' , not some reverence for the 'life is in the blood'. I don't think it's recommended by the medical community. I'd forbid it in my house just because it's creepy as hell.

3) I think this is done as a matter of course in preparing slaughtered animals is it not? Certainly whether or not such a thing is harmful is well within in the realm of science. Is it immoral to drain or not drain the blood of an animal after you kill it? I don't see how morality figures into it. I would think for reasons of taste, health, and convenience you'd drain it to facilitate a cleaner dismemberment.

The question of what is moral or immoral concerning things like animals and food preparation would seem to me to center around preventing and abuse of the animals and preserving the health of those who would it.

[arron]

shem GODS WORD THE BIBLE tell us that animals were sacrificed to GOD(JEHOVAH) this was commanded by GOD and the eating of animal flesh was given after the flood by GOD . the blood was to be drained from the animal as far as it could be. the eating of blood and the eating of fat were both forbiden for that belonged to GOD and the life is in the blood. it is pure ignorance for a christian to say (some are just calling themselves christian)that it is wrong to offer animal sacrificeand tha GOD DIDNT command it. they should read GODS WORD the bible that is what charistians go by. i have heard this fookisness about not eating meat till i am sick of hearing it. and for you or anyone else to say that GOD did not command animal sacrifice is just to tell me that you are not christian not saved and are still on your road to hell

[rachelengland]

OH BOY!!!!!!!

[ba2]

I think I'll go get myself a good steak for dinner tonight. Medium rare, nice and bloody. And ever hear of "Czarnina" a blood soup which a Polish friend always craves. Maybe worth a try.

[rachelengland]

EEK...

[trainedobserver]

I do think it should be forbidden to ritually kill living things to appease invisible beings, gods, or whatever, as an act of worship or obedience.

The veneration of death in the act of ritual sacrifice is physiologically evil(another's death is spiritually beneficial!!??), barbaric, and uncivilized. Not because the animal dies but because it unwillingly gives its life for a primitive act of worship to an invisible being of some kind rather than dieing to feed another in the cycle of life.

That's what I think anyway. Take it or leave it.

[yaakov2]

TO

I asked if eating animals was evil, not if it was moral. Do you believe that evil is identical to immoral? Is good identical to moral?

Also I asked you to use the scientific method and critical thinking in your answers.

<font color="0000ff">I think the answer is in nature.</font>

It looks like you are just giving your opinion.

<font color="0000ff">2) I think it's done in some places for different reasons. …I'd forbid it in my house just because it's creepy as hell.</font>

Being creepy is the scientific method?

<font color="0000ff">3) Is it immoral to drain or not drain the blood of an animal after you kill it? I don't see how morality figures into it. I would think for reasons of taste, health, and convenience you'd drain it to facilitate a cleaner dismemberment.</font>

So? Does science say it is forbidden or not?

<font color="0000ff">The question of what is moral or immoral concerning things like animals and food preparation would seem to me to center around preventing and abuse of the animals and preserving the health of those who would it.</font>

Should all questions of moral or immoral focus on whether one is harmed by it? What does science say about immorality?

[yaakov2]

Trainedobserver

<font color="0000ff">The veneration of death in the act of ritual sacrifice is physiologically evil(another's death is spiritually beneficial!!??), barbaric, and uncivilized. Not because the animal dies but because it unwillingly gives its life for a primitive act of worship to an invisible being of some kind rather than dieing to feed another in the cycle of life. That's what I think anyway. Take it or leave it.</font>

Is it immoral to kill animals in laboratories for scientific experiments?
Is it immoral to kill animals when clearing the land for development?
Is it immoral to kill animals when building dams?
Is it immoral to run over thousands of animals on the highways?
Is it immoral to kill animals for their skin to make leather?
Is it immoral to kill insects to make silk?
Is it immoral to spray pesticides to kill insects?

None of these willingly give up their lives.

[yaakov2]

Trainedobserver

<font color="0000ff">The veneration of death in the act of ritual sacrifice is physiologically evil(another's death is spiritually beneficial!!??), barbaric, and uncivilized. Not because the animal dies but because it unwillingly gives its life for a primitive act of worship to an invisible being of some kind rather than dieing to feed another in the cycle of life. That's what I think anyway. Take it or leave it.</font>

By the way, your are again tossing out your opinions. I don’t see any scientific analysis here.

[trainedobserver]

All but the accidents are examples of using animals for the benefit of human beings in a very material and _real_ way, not winning points with an invisible entity that may or may not be there.

Killing animals because someone thinks an unseen god has directed them to and that it will somehow win them some mystic spiritual benefit with said god for obedience or whatever is backward, ignorant, dangerous, and wastes life.

It is an act of primitive magic (trying to influence unseen forces) and quite frankly I would hope that we as human beings are beyond all of that.

Life is the most sacred thing there is, or it should be. Taking it needlessly is disgraceful.

[trainedobserver]

"I don’t see any scientific analysis here."

You're being silly. You know the answer already. Why don't you just get to the point?

The question ... is it evil (destructive) to eat an animal?
1) To determine if the eating an animal is evil you would do something like the following.
a) Feed the meat to a test subject. (lab rat)
b) Test for known toxins using established procedures.
c) Research the history of the consumption of the animal.
d) If your test subject doesn't become ill, you find no known toxins in the meat, and the history of the animal show no problems with its consumption in the past. Eat the damn thing. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
e)I would reflect and draw a conclusion, write a paper and publish it. I would get my peers to confirm or find fault with my findings.

2) Do something similar to the above. I would research history, I would experiment, I would reflect on the results and draw a conclusion. If you're really interested in this subject you can research it yourself. I'm not reinventing blood analysis procedures here. Thank you very much.

3)Is it immoral to drain the blood of animal before you eat it?
I would begin by determining what affect leaving the blood in the animal as opposed to removing would have on public health. That would be my number one and only 'moral' concern.
I would conduct research into the history of preparing animals for consumption to determine what we already know. I would design experiments to determine what real difference it makes. I would reflect and draw a conclusion, write a paper and publish it. I would get my peers to confirm or find fault with my findings.

The point is I would not take the word of some ancient book of dubious authorship over empirical evidence gained through reliable methods.

Evil is that which is destructive to life and its natural continuation, it is not arbitrarily determined by ancient sky-gods or modern god-men.

Jim: Want some bacon?
Jack: No way, god told me it was bad for me.
Jim: Really, I know too much of anything can be bad for you but if you exercise and eat in moderation my doctor tells me its ok.
Jack: Well it does smell really good.
Jim: Dude! Bacon is like the candy of meats! It's freak'n delicious! Here have some.
Jack: No, no, god said I shouldn't do that and I gotta do what god says.
Jim: You masturbate don't you Jack? God doesn't like that I hear.
Jack: I never masturbate! (turns red)
Jim: You're not supposed to lie either are you?
Jack: Oh, for Pete's sake!
Jim: (food in mouth) The bacon's good dude.
Jack: Shut up.
Jim: (mouth full of food) Didn't you pet that dog earlier?
Jack: I thought I told you to shut up.

[rachelengland]

Oh My...I don't even know what to say that-traditions are personal convictions and just that- no one should tell another if they should or should not eat meat and I hope no one is performing animal sacrifices these days?... R

(Message edited by rachelengland on December 29, 2006)

[pro610]

Trained,
""Life is the most sacred thing there is, or it should be. Taking it needlessly is disgraceful.""

Does this mean you,re against abortion also?
Are you Pro-Life?

A simple yes or no would be fine.
I don,t need a speech on your agenda.

Peace be with you.

[shem]

In all the analysis so far, no one has even considered the "life" and "Spirit" (Breath) of the animal. Life is a 'Sacred' thing which can only be given by God - and should thus only be taken by God.

[catholic_man]

Shem,

Vegetarian?

I saw a poster in a restaurant in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, one time.

It said:
"I like vegetarians, what do ya think cows are?"
;-)

[shem]

C_M,

Yes, I am vegetarian. It is because of ignorance of Truth that evil prevails. How many Christians (or others) even consider the lives of innocent creatures when they sit down to eat them. They simply have no idea or knowledge of their evil deed.

[arron]

the reason for sacrifice was so the blood could be offered on the altar. JESUS DID this for us

[catholic_man]

Shem,

Pro610 brought up a good point, are you pro-life or pro-abortion??

Arron, you are correct that Jesus is the propiation for our sins and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.

This is why we say that in the Mass the Eucharist is a 'bloodless' sacrifice, because Jesus already shed his blood once and for all. This is highly misunderstood about Catholics and probably because alot of Catholics don't know their own faith. In the Mass we spiritually are united with Jesus on the cross, but NOT because of his death. Nope. It is because of his death and RESURRECTION to give us life to overcome our sins. We are united with him at Calvary, because it should have been me on the cross dying for my sins. Instead Jesus did that.

[yaakov2]

<font color="0000ff">The veneration of death in the act of ritual sacrifice is physiologically evil(another's death is spiritually beneficial!!??), barbaric, and uncivilized. Not because the animal dies but because it unwillingly gives its life for a primitive act of worship to an invisible being of some kind rather than dieing to feed another in the cycle of life.</font>

<font color="119911">Is it immoral to kill animals in laboratories for scientific experiments?
Is it immoral to kill animals when clearing the land for development?
Is it immoral to kill animals when building dams?
Is it immoral to run over thousands of animals on the highways?
Is it immoral to kill animals for their skin to make leather?
Is it immoral to kill insects to make silk?
Is it immoral to spray pesticides to kill insects?</font>

<font color="0000ff">All but the accidents are examples of using animals for the benefit of human beings in a very material and _real_ way, not winning points with an invisible entity that may or may not be there.</font>

TO, thinking that sacrifice is a way to score points with G-d is 100% Christian thought. Jews mostly sacrificed animals as a way of thanking G-d for their bounty. You said that killing an animal is barbaric and uncivilized. Now you are saying killing animals is ok as long as it is for the benefit of human beings. I'm saying that animal sacrifice was for humans mental benefit. G-d has no use for a dead animal. Sacrifice has always been for a human being's benefit. So, even by your standards, it should be ok.

<font color="0000ff">Life is the most sacred thing there is, or it should be. Taking it needlessly is disgraceful.</font>

Who can determine the need? A scientist? A priest? A developer?

[shem]

C_m,

I am surprised that you should have to ask me this question after me telling you that I do not even kill animals. Of course I am anti-abortion.

[catholic_man]

Shem,
Okay, I was just curious that your reasoning made sense. I thought to myself...if this guy thinks it's wrong to kill an animal then surely he must think that abortion is wrong.

What about contraception?

[shem]

C_m,

The correct method is obviously self control. Other than this I have no comment.

[arron]

shem you should know about ignorance since you are ignorant

[trainedobserver]

”thinking that sacrifice is a way to score points with G-d is 100% Christian thought. Jews mostly sacrificed animals as a way of thanking G-d for their bounty. “

In the end, I can see no real difference there.

”Sacrifice has always been for a human being's benefit. So, even by your standards, it should be ok. “

I've already addressed that but here it is again..
“Killing animals because someone thinks an unseen god has directed them to and that it will somehow win them some mystic spiritual benefit with said god for obedience or whatever is backward, ignorant, dangerous, and wastes life.

It is an act of primitive magic (trying to influence unseen forces) and quite frankly I would hope that we as human beings are beyond all of that. “

”
Who can determine the need? A scientist? A priest? A developer? “

Yes yaakov, some thinking person or persons will have to determine the need. What is your point? Is it that a human being is incapable of such a feat and should follow the commands of someone else's ancient tribal god? Everyone doesn't believe that Yahweh exists and therefore they believe they have to think for themselves.

[yaakov2]

trainedobserver

<font color="0000ff">In the end, I can see no real difference there.</font>

I agree that the animal sees no difference, but it is also not to the animal's benefit to be killed for man's clothing either.

<font color="119911">”Sacrifice has always been for a human being's benefit. So, even by your standards, it should be ok. “</font>

<font color="0000ff">I've already addressed that but here it is again..</font>

No, you miss the nuance. You've already told me that killing animals for human beings' benefit is ok. I'm telling you that most sacrifices were for human's mental benefit. In a way, you can view it as a tax. Instead of a farmer giving 10% to the government for a bountious flock, he gives one sheep to the temple for a bountious flock.

<font color="119911">Who can determine the need? A scientist? A priest? A developer? “</font>

<font color="0000ff">Yes yaakov, some thinking person or persons will have to determine the need. What is your point?</font>

A rabbi qualifies as a thinking person. So, a rabbi can determine the need just as well as a developer.

[trainedobserver]

"No, you miss the nuance."

There is no nuance. The sacrifice of an animal is in no way necessary for human beings mental health.

"So, a rabbi..."

For the rabbi.

[yaakov2]

So you say, however many people feel grateful when goods things happen to them. Nowadays, many people increase their charitable giving right after getting a raise. Back then, under the right circumstances, people gave one of their herd in gratitude.

[trainedobserver]

Whatever. In my mind, there is no justification for the death of an animal due to someone's superstitious belief that killing the animal will show a god how appreciative he is. It is a primitive and barbaric ritual that has no place in a civilized progressive society.

[rachelengland]

It is a primitive and barbaric ritual that has no place in a civilized progressive society.

Are people still making animal sacrifices?

[trainedobserver]

Not openly I guess. Voodoo, Hoodoo, and some Voodoo/Catholic hybrid whose name escapes me reportedly kill things in their rituals.

Supposedly Judaism can not sacrifice anything until the temple is rebuilt.

[arron]

christians do not offer animal sacrifces we have a sacrifice that was made for us on calvary THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST there is no further need for animal sacrifice. any christan know and believes this.

[arron]

voodoo and hoodoo what ever are not of GOD but are of satan

[yaakov2]

No. Animal sacrifices are not permitted until the Messiah rebuilds the temple.

Even when sacrifices were allowed, it wasn’t only animals that were donated. People also sacrificed money, flour, jewelry, and incense.

[yaakov2]

Actually Rachel, there are a lot of Jews, myself included that would agree with you. I think it would be a step backward to re-institute the sacrificial system exactly as it was. I think that our observances have grown up since then.

However, until the Messiah comes, any talk about the future sacrificial system would be pure speculation.

[shem]

Everyone who eats animal flesh is sacrificing the animal to themselves! This is true whether it is admitted or not!

[arron]

you are a nut that is not of GOD but of the spirit of antichrist

[shem]

Arron,

Do you know what kind of people resort to insults when they have no good argument to put forward?