Are Christians allowed to hate

[yaakov2]

While I edited the following essay, I did not write it. I am seeking comments on it. Is it accurate?
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

There is an unfortunate and continuing pattern on behalf of our Christian brethren to refuse to hate evil. Many of Christians mistakenly believe that God forbids hatred. They quote Jesus' teaching to turn the other cheek and his admonishment to love your enemies as proof that we dare never hate. From a heavenly perspective Osama bin Laden and the average housewife from Kansas are equal. Bin Laden must indeed face justice for his crimes, but we dare not hate him seeing that Jesus still loves him.

But this is a travesty of Jesus' teachings. It would make this personality into someone who had contempt for his victims as he extended love to their murderers. Jesus advocated turning the other cheek to petty slights and affronts to honor, not to mass graves and torture chambers. Likewise, while Jesus taught that we ought to love our own enemies, this did not apply to God's enemies. Our enemies are people who take our parking spot or who are our rivals for a promotion at work. God's enemies are those who slaughter his children.

Let not any Christian think that Jesus' sympathy was for anyone other than the oppressed and the poor. True, the Bible commands us to "love our neighbor as ourselves," but the man who kills children is not our neighbor. Having cast off the image of God, he has lost his divine spark and is condemned to eternal oblivion, from which not even a belief in salvation will rescue him. He who murders God's children has been lost to God forever and has abandoned all entitlement to love, earning eternal derision in its stead.

I state unequivocally that to love the terrorist who flies a civilian plane into a civilian building, or a white supremacist who drags a black man three miles while tied to the back of a car is not just inane, it is deeply sinful. To love evil is itself evil, and constitutes a passive form of complicity.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

[shem]

Quite simply, God Loves ALL of us, but hates the evil that may manifest within us. We should do the same.

[arron]

we as christians are to hate evil for it is not of GOD and we can hate our enemies, and i pray that shem dont take it out of context which he delights in doing. for their deeds are evil even then we in a sense are not hating the person but their evil deeds.

[catholic_man]

Hate the sin, not the sinner!

Unfortunately, it is too easy to hate the sinner, too. That is a big problem. The greatest commandment is about love. The ten commandments are summed up in that we love God, first three, and we love neighbor, last seven.

We should never hate the souls of our brothers, sisters, or fellowman. We are instead instructed to pray for them.

[shem]

Arron,

It seems that you have a great hatred in your heart for me - you seem to make so many nasty remarks about me as often as you can.

[yaakov2]

It appears the writer’s opinions were correct. Three for three stated that Christians are not allowed to hate a person, only a person’s actions.

Though arron posted a small variance. His first sentence stated that he can hate his enemies. But, then his second sentence contradicted it and stated that only the deeds can be hated.

[inkorrekt]

Yes, we are all called to HATE. What? Sin. We are all called also to LOVE whom? The sinner. WE are all beggars in need of mercy of God.

[shem]

On the U.S. Dollar bill it states: "In God we Trust." This is one of the greatest lies ever published! It should read "In Gold we Trust", and all the weapons of war and hatred that can be bought with that gold.

Yes, the world is full of evil people, but there is no solution in hunting them down and killing them. The war in Iraq is breeding more and more hatred - and terrorists. Violence and more hatred is not the solution. God has an answer, but no one wants to listen. So genuine Peace and Love is found by very few in this world.

[catholic_man]

Shem,

The original question: Are Christians allowed to hate?

ANSWER: No

IN PRACTICE: Yes, they do. In fact, other than Jesus, name somebody who has never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER hated another person at one time or another...excluding small children. The reality is that we have ALL been guilty of it, although some people do it to the extreme of murder whereas others do it while withdrawing from society to cry themselves to sleep because of the hate in their heart.

Let me ask you a question based on the following scenario and your analysis of the War on Iraq:

Suppose a man who loves his family dearly after sitting down and eating a family meal, a man breaks into the house and rapes his wife in front of him and the children. The man raping his wife has a gun, but is obviously a little distracted. You, on the other hand, have your hand on chester drawer with a loaded gun.

How would you react?

[shem]

I was once in a similar position. It was many years ago in South Africa. I was managing a night club and I went over to see what was causing a commotion at the entrance. Two thugs were trying to get in without paying. When I politely spoke to them they turned on me and punched me to the ground and then started kicking me. I had a revolver in a holster under my jacket, but I just could not, pull it out. I knew that I could not even threaten anyone with a gun, let alone use it. People had told me many times, never pull a gun on anyone unless you are prepared to use it. I know for sure that I would never be able to do that - not even to save my life.

[arron]

well if we were not to kill for self defense why would we go to war? now i know why we have wars but for a soldier to kill because he is fighting for his country , no that does not show hate and yaakov i did not say what youimplied i said we could hate our enemies as to their eveil deeds for they are contray to what GOD has for HIS PEOPLE. do you think that the jews who are fighting there are wrong whe they kill for the cause of ALMIGHTY GOD? NO.

[ba2]

All the gospels are clear about the law of love.
Matt 22:39-40 love your neighbor as yourself. On the law of love hang all the law and the prophets.
Mark 12:31 says the same thing, love your neighbor as yourself.
Luke 10:27 love thy neighbor as thyself
John: 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another.

And Paul really hits it home in Galatians 5:14 <font color="119911">“For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”</font>

Love is the one constant message throughout. The “golden rule” is the law. Treat others as you wish to be treated. How do I wish to be treated by my enemy? If they must kill me, I would hope they could do it in a humane way. No torture, no ridicule. How do you treat your enemy when you are trying to kill them? Show respect. No reason to torture or ridicule a captured enemy. Just do the job.

The examples c_man and shem gave are not even remotely the same. You do all that you can to protect your family. Kill, yes, if that is needed to protect them, especially from a heinous crime. I don’t believe God tells us not to protect our family. The hard part is keeping the emotions out of it after the fact. If my family were killed by a madman, would I be able to sit back and allow the authorities to handle the crime? I don’t know. Probably yes, if a little time past. And as in shem’s example, to avoid turning a fist fight into a shootout would probably be prudent.

[catholic_man]

ba2,

You said, "The examples c_man and shem gave are not even remotely the same. You do all that you can to protect your family. Kill, yes, if that is needed to protect them, especially from a heinous crime. I don’t believe God tells us not to protect our family. The hard part is keeping the emotions out of it after the fact."

That is precisely the difference. I do not know if others were threatened or involved in Shem's case, but the fact that the lives of your family are weighed in the balance I believe it changes things. Of course using any other means than deadly force is preferrable, but there may not be much of a choice. Could you honestly look in your wife's or children's eyes and tell them that you wouldn't protect them?

Does these mean that we HATE the criminal? At that time, the flesh may enter and cause some hatred, but we must remember that it is the CRIME itself that we hate...even if you killed the guy.

Shem, boy I feel really bad about what happened to you. That must have been an awful experience. Did you suffer any major injuries, if you don't mind talking about it? Luckily I have never been in that position, although I have been in some scrapes as a teenager.

ba2, I appreciate your analysis.

So, in my scenario listed above, would it be okay to HATE the criminal? Where do you draw the line between hating the person and hating the crime, especially when the two seem to be so interwoven?

[shem]

Perhaps, if one was to place ALL one's trust (and I mean completely) in God, then He would not allow evil things to happen to you or your family. Since finding my Master (33 years ago), nothing bad has ever happened to me or my family.

[fullofquestions]

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. JEDI Master Yoda

[ba2]

shem
You said, <font color="0000ff">“Perhaps, if one was to place ALL one's trust (and I mean completely) in God, then He would not allow evil things to happen to you or your family. Since finding my Master (33 years ago), nothing bad has ever happened to me or my family.”</font> Your evidence is purely anecdotal, there is no good statistical evidence to back up your claim. The fact is, there are a lot of families out there that never had anything really bad happen to them. I grew up in a violent community and a lot of bad things happened, 30 years ago I moved hundreds of miles away into a small peaceful community and behold, not much bad happens to anyone. People don’t even lock doors here. Your faith has little to do with it but your behavior does. Even in that inner-city violent area, some never had bad things happen. Good things tend to come to good people. Bad things tend to come to bad people.

[ba2]

c_man, in a perfect world, no one would hate. But then again, we are not in a perfect world so there is crime, violence and a lot of prejudice and hate. I believe the fundamentalist on all sides, Christian, Muslim or whatever, through their intolerant preaching cause the escalation of hate and violence. Being human, I probably would hate, for a while, those who do crimes, especially when they are personal. This is normal, but not necessarily right.

[shem]

ba2,

You said: "Good things tend to come to good people. Bad things tend to come to bad people."

Yes, isn't that what is implyed by "putting all one's trust in God" (one who does so would necessarily be a good person). This is the Law of karma (as you sow, so shall you reap).

[arron]

GOD has not given us the spirit of fear but of a sound mind

[skooter942000]

- Does "ALMIGHTY GOD" - (hate)?

- That is the real question.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif


Hate the SIN?
&amp; Not the SINNER?


'With LOVE', (Comes Correction)?

- Does "ALMIGHTY GOD" correct HIS CHILDREN?


http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom009.html#




Don <*))><

[skooter942000]

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and <font color="0000ff">hate</font> not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Grk-miseo = <font color="0000ff">hate</font> = "LOVE-LESS"


http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&amp;isindex=3404

[ba2]

Shem,
You said, <font color="0000ff">“Yes, isn't that what is implyed by "putting all one's trust in God" (one who does so would necessarily be a good person). This is the Law of karma (as you sow, so shall you reap).”</font> Maybe in your opinion. But I would still say that it depends on how you act. The perpetrators of the twin-towers attack put their trust totally in God, or so they thought, and now they are dead. Those who do not allow themselves to question their beliefs or interpretation of any writing are putting themselves in the position to become members of a cult, maybe a dangerous one. I recently watched a program on the history channel about a few dangerous cults and it is notable to point out that many of them started out as what most people would consider a normal church population. The People's Temple was founded in 1955 by Indianapolis preacher James Warren Jones which eventually led to the Jonestown massacre. What would ever possess so many people to follow a cult leader to their death? Answer is simple, only an unquestioning mindset.

[shem]

ba2,

The perpetrators of the twin-towers attack, and the followers of ALL historic religions, do not follow God, even though they think they do, they in fact follow satan (i.e. their own unenlightened mind)!

[ba2]

Shem,
Exactly, but these people, like you and others who follow whatever belief they follow think they are following God. So it goes back to what I said, whether or not a person is good it is dependent on how they act. It really has nothing to do with any specificity of belief. I assure you, it is not the atheist who threatens my belief, they do nothing more than explain why they don’t believe in something. It is the religious fanatics, especially when they say how they have it right and others have it wrong, who cause me to have doubts. If everyone is wrong, how can anyone, including me, be right? Shem, you seem like a nice person, but quite frankly, you scare the beejeevies out of me with some of your concepts. Your take on love and death and mourning (other thread) is like a scene out of “Helter Skelter”. Charles Manson thought he was following God too and convinced his followers to kill without remorse, no need to mourn, God is all they needed.

[shem]

ba2,

Don't be frightened of me, I am a pacifist, I do not even hurt animals (vegetarian).

The whole point is that BELIEFS are NOT KNOWLEDGE! I used to 'believe' in Jesus and God, but now I have passed beyond belief to Gnosis. Religionists only have 'beliefs' (whether right or wrong), that is why there are so many different religions with so many different BELIEFS. We have to come to KNOWLEDGE before we can KNOW what is right or wrong. And the ONLY way to such Spiritual Knowledge (Gnosis) is through a living contemporary human Master (as Jesus was, 2,000 years ago).

[inkorrekt]

Hatred is biblical. How? God hates Sin. But He loves the sinner. You and I are also called to do the same.

[catholic_man]

ba2,

You made a good point about all of the cult leaders and "an unquestioning mind". We should always be examining self. Unless I misunderstood your statement about 'Good happening to good people and bad happening to bad people', I would tend to disagree to an extent.

Now of course, we can bring bad things on ourselves. Don't pay the mortgage or car loan and see what happens! So, I agree from that vantage point.

However, sacred scripture tells us that God rains on the just and the unjust. What about the story of Job? He was an upright man and God ALLOWED Satan to tempt him and cause all sorts of pain and suffering including the loss of his family. I have known really good spiritually inclined people who have died from cancer who DIDN'T smoke. Sometimes bad things just happen and only God knows the purpose.

We become united with the sufferings of Christ in our sufferings. It gives us a glimpse of his suffering on the cross although we may not ever totally truly emphathize (sympathy generated from a similar experience) with it. Just because we may suffer doesn't mean we a sinner. Just because someone is rich doesn't mean he is serving God, either. The poor aren't necessarily poor due to anything wrong that they did, although there may be exceptions.

From a Christian standpoint, Jesus came to help the poor by giving them hope. He came to heal, but more of the spiritual healing of removing sin than removing physical illnesses.

Who knows it all? I don't!
God bless!

[catholic_man]

ba2,

If you are referring to salvific value, then I totally agree with you! Let me elaborate:
SCENARIO 1
Good person does good things.
Good person suffers miserably with illness
Good person dies a painful death
SCENARIO 1 CONCLUSION
Good person is rewarded with Good by going to heaven.

SCENARIO 2
Bad person does bad things.
Bad person steals and gains great wealth.
Bad person seems to have good things happen.
Bad person lives to be 100 and dies of old age.
SCENARIO 2 CONCLUSION
Bad person is rewarded with 'hell' for his evil.

In that case, I totally agree with your statement:
Good things tend to come to good people. Bad things tend to come to bad people.

Yes, I took Shem as being a pacifist. He thinks we're all crazy for eating meat. Although I do not share all of his viewpoints I do respect his sincerity. I hope you have a sense of humor Shem.

Do you know what PETA means? People Eating Tasty Animals! ;-)

God bless everyone!

[catholic_man]

For those of you who are not from the US may not be familiar with PETA.

They are an animal rights organization.

I certainly respect the lives of animals, but I also like eating steak. I believe in a temperance about it.

My brother and I would occasionally go hunting when we were young. Our dad would always warn us not to kill anything unless we intended to prepare and eat it. One day I saw my dad swatting at flies. I aked him, "Gonna eat those??" :-)

[shem]

C_m,

Did you know that the Essenes, John the Baptist, the Apostles Matthew and John, James (Jesus' brother), and the Ebionites (Jewish followers of Jesus) are all reported to be vegetarian? Clement of Alexandria (2nd Century Bishop of Alexandria) also recommended a fleshless diet, citing the example of the Apostle Matthew, who, he says: “partook of seeds, nuts, and vegetables, but no flesh.” (Paedagogus 2:1). “James, the Lord’s brother, was holy from birth: he drank no wine or intoxicating liquor, and ate no animal flesh.” (Hegesippus – 2nd century Jewish Christian) – quoted by Eusebius CHURCH HISTORY 2, 23:4). Furthermore, in addition to the above evidence that SS. Matthew and James were vegetarians, it is also reported by Epiphanius that St. John ate no animal flesh. It is also a fact that many other early Jewish disciples of Jesus – those who rejected worldly greed and private ownership of goods, choosing instead a simple, poor, ‘communistic’ life-style (see ACTS 2:44-45, &amp; 4:32-37), and thus accruing the labels “Ebionites” / “Nazarites” – are known to have been vegetarians. It is not difficult to see why the later self-styled “orthodox” gentile hierarchies, which were becoming powerful and wealthy, rejected the simple communistic Ebionites as heretics! It is also relevant to note that, according to Epiphanius, the Ebionites possessed a Hebrew (or Aramaic ) “Gospel of Matthew” (possibly the original “autographa” – no longer extant) which stated that John the Baptist ate “bread and wild honey” instead of the “locusts and wild honey” which our extant Greek manuscripts record (see MATT.3:4). There is an ancient Greek word for “bread” (enkris) which is very similar to that for “locust” (akris), thus it is quite probable that a very early copyist of a Greek translation of the text misread and/or miscopied the word in question. It must also be noted that the Mandaeans – the reputed followers of this John (the Baptist) – were also originally strict vegetarians. Finally, it should be noted that Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, the first Chief Rabbi of Israel, taught that vegetarianism was an ideal of pure religion, and that in the Messianic age all genuine followers of the Messiah will be vegetarian!

[getagrip]

I like PETA on Pita...

[ba2]

c_man, shem,
Many dangerous cults start out as being very gentile and pacifist. The People's Temple and Jim Jones which eventually led to the Jonestown massacre is one famous case in point. That take on death and mourning is either a lie or a sign of a psychotic personality. Sorry, I can’t trust someone who would appear so callus to death, even if they claim to be a pacifist.

shem, if humans were not meant to eat meat, they would not have the tooth structure they have.

c_man
Good things tend to happen to good people, both in the real world and afterworld. The operative word is “tend”. If you do good things for others, others will do good things for you, it is that simple. Do bad things to others and they will tend to screw you if they get the chance. But yes, sometimes bad things happen to really good people too. I know from first hand, my first wife died after a long and hard fight with cancer. Her entire life was spent doing good things for others, so where is the fairness? But, everyone who knew her, loved her, and she received love, especially as death became evident, from everyone around her. Good things did happen to her, just differently than some would have preferred. I stand by what I said, <font color="119911">“Good things tend to come to good people. Bad things tend to come to bad people.”</font> Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.

[shem]

ba2,

What about gorillas? Have you seen their teeth? Are they supposed to eat meat? The most important indicator of carnivores is their intestine system. Flesh eaters have very short intestines, while vegetarians need longer intestines in order to extract the necessary elements from vegetation. Humans have long intestines.

[sharon]

Shem... boy do I like the way you think...Of course I am a vegan so I agree totally. I know why some do not like you now! I did wonder at all the anger in other places, but now I see why.
And thanks for all the information, that was great.

Catholic Man... Very funny about the flies. Nice to have a chuckle Sunday morning.

Yaakov... No Christians can not hate anyone, not even Gods enemies, for he says revenge is mine! And I say he means that. And Jesus says ALL the Laws and ALL the prophets hang on our love of God and our fellowman. Not just those we like or agree with. And if an evil man should point a gun at me I would not do the same back as I believe my Father has the power to save his children. Jesus would not kill another, he would trust his Father. Christians are the ones who follow him.

Ba2.. Your wife is now recieving her reward, as she deserves and did not get here on earth. Once I would not have said this, but now I know it to be true.

[catholic_man]

ba2,

Sorry about your loss. My wife and I lost a still born little girl. Exactly seven years later, my dad died on the same exact day. I do mourn; it is for my healing. I don't go around crying all day, but I do feel the loss. I have seen those who just cannot seem to get a grip after losing a loved one, but I believe we have a better hope that they are with God and that gives comfort. I believe that your wife is with God in heaven.

God bless you brother as I believe that I understand what you really meant.

I believe that I understand more clearly what you mean and have to say that I agree with your perspective. Your statements just seemed unclear to me at first, which is why I further inquired. The term I heard applied to your description of good things 'tend' to happen to good people and bad things 'tend' to happen to bad people...is the phrase 'self-fulfilling prophecy'.

Here are two examples:
1. A woman experieces a bad relationship with her parents who eventually divorce. As a result the woman develops a really bad perspective about love and develops a 'distrust' of any man. Finally she meets a man and is head over heels. However, she cannot shake the negative thoughts or feelings and although now married to the man of her dreams, so she thinks, she walks around in fear that something bad will happen to her. Her fear induces panic and unreal expectations. Bye and bye because of her refusal to believe that anything good could ever happen to her she starts drinking and behaving bizzarely finally driving a wedge in the relationship. She continually provokes her spouse and finally they divorce. She doesn't realize that she is the problem and thus a 'self fulfilling prophecy' comes to pass. She feared it so much that she actually caused it to happen.

2. The flipside of that could be good. Someone continually puts faith in God and truly believes that despite the evil or suffering that good will result. The woman dies and is surrounded by friends and loved ones because of the positive influence. Her children grow up to make a difference in society and are respected. This is also a 'self fulfilling prophecy' in a good way.

God bless you brother!! I believe I understand what you meant a lot more clearly.

1 Corinthians, Chapter 15:
19: If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

[shem]

Sharon,

Good to hear that you are a vegan.

I am not sure what you meant by: "I know why some do not like you now! I did wonder at all the anger in other places, but now I see why."

Do you mean that they don't like me because I'm a vegetarian? Or because I confront their errors?

[yaakov2]

And the Christian pattern continues…

In my local newspaper this morning, there was an article regarding the recent church fires. It said that the congregation was standing on the lot, where the blackened remains of their building was, and decided to forgive the arsonist.

Such thinking is incomprehensible to me. Evil should be confronted, not forgiven. They don’t know who the arsonist is, they don’t know if the arsonist is sorry, and they don’t know whether the arsonist is planning to do it again. All they know is that they have to pardon the arsonist’s evil.

[skooter942000]

Isa 5:20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil; that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness; that put bitter for
sweet, and sweet for bitter!


Isa 5:21 ¶ Woe unto [them that are] wise in
their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!


Isa 5:22 ¶ Woe unto [them that are] mighty to
drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong
drink:


Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous
from him!

------------------------------------------------

Psa 34:14 Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.

Psa 34:15 The eyes of the LORD [are] upon
the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto
their cry.

Psa 34:16 The face of the LORD [is] against
them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance
of them from the earth.





-You're not a CHRISTIAN , - are you Jacob?
- (are you any better than "Saul")?

- Think about it.




<font color="ff0000">Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses,
your heavenly Father will also forgive you:


Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. </font>





Added Note:

People have the RIGHT to defend themselves
- (LAWFULLY)- .



"ALMIGHTY GOD" is our "JUDGE",
- And JUDGE us, "HE SHALL".




Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies,
and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again;
and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be
the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto
the unthankful and [to] the evil.


Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful,
as your Father also is merciful.


Luk 6:37 ¶ Judge not, and ye shall not be
judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be
condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif - i'll listen to GOD over 'man'





Don <*))><

[yaakov2]

Skooter

Does your god tell you to pardon the unrepetant and ignore the victims?

[skooter942000]

- My GOD?


- Is HE different from Yours?


Hmmmmmmmmmm





- There is only "ONE" [ TRUE GOD ] . Period





- What was your question again?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[yaakov2]

OK, I've seen this before. Ignoring my question and posting your own provides all the answers I need.

[bee]

Yaakov,
The NT tells us to abhor that which is evil &amp; cling to that which is good. Romans 12:9

I hope that that answers it for you. We are to show mercy but IMHO Romans 12:9 is clear that we are never to just accept evil. Blessings to you. I hope that you are well.

[doug]

Bee and Sharon all in one thread!

[ba2]

shem
Sorry I took so long to get back to you.
Concerning my comment on teeth and being a vegan, you asked <font color="0000ff">“What about gorillas? Have you seen their teeth? Are they supposed to eat meat?”</font> In nature, primates, including chimps and gorillas have very varied diets, but you are probably correct though, mostly fruits and vegetables, very little meat. What I should have said is you should consider the entire digestive system, from teeth to anus. The human system is actually much more closely related to carnivores than it is to pure herbivores. Your take on the intestines is plain wrong. I did discuss this with a biologist and he gave me many resources, some on line. Do a google using “carnivore intestines” and some articles will come up. Humans are “Omnivores” but their digestion is mainly enzymatic – more like that of the carnivores.

One last point, no one gives a rip if you or anyone else is a vegan, as long as you don’t try to force it on them. I don’t eat what most Americans would consider a lot of meat, but I do enjoy a good steak from time to time.

[escape]

The Word tells us to be angry but sin not. In Eph. 4.

How can this be possible?

I think that when I am angry because I am offended or wounded and I am angry at people for this, this is truly sin, but when I am angry because of someone being unjustly treated, and are being persecuted, or hurt in anyway, I can be angry and sin not.

Just a few thougths...

[ba2]

yaakov,
You hit right on my biggest beef concerning how so many fundamentalist Christians deal with questions, especially tough questions. Ignore and ask a different one, then complain when you don’t quickly answer their question. I think you are exactly right, that common response says a lot.

I would like your personal opinion. I have heard it said that Islam developed out of Christianity which developed from Judaism. All three have the same basic root. And, as they evolved, they became more and more varied. That is, Judaism has the least variability, Christianity has more variability and Islam has the greatest variability. I never thought this to be true, but it makes some sense. Especially since coming to factnet, I have learned that Christianity has so many views that an outsider has trouble discerning what it means to be Christian. From Catholic to fundamental Baptist to varied Christian cults, literally 100’s of different followings. I don’t expect you to know too much about Islam, but what about Judaism? How varied are the views? And what is the range of thought in Judaism about your same question regarding hate and enemies?

[yaakov2]

ba2

<font color="0000ff">I have heard it said that Islam developed out of Christianity which developed from Judaism. All three have the same basic root.</font>

Not in the same way. Christianity developed from Judaism. That is clear cut. However, Islam didn’t. We know very little about pre-Islamic religion in Arabia, except that it was probably polytheistic and the Kaaba &amp; Hajj were already important to that religion for honoring their gods. Gods which apparently Muhammad destroyed after conquering Mecca and dedicating it to Allah. However, Muhammad borrowed from BOTH Christianity and Judaism, it didn’t “break away” from either of our religions.

<font color="0000ff">And, as they evolved, they became more and more varied. That is, Judaism has the least variability, Christianity has more variability and Islam has the greatest variability.</font>

I think that Christianity has the most variability. AFAIK, there are less than a dozen sects of Islam, but hundreds of Christian denominations.

<font color="0000ff">Especially since coming to factnet, I have learned that Christianity has so many views that an outsider has trouble discerning what it means to be Christian.</font>

Oy, tell me about it. Several years ago, I posted my short definition of a Christian. Several Christians disagreed with it. I don’t know of a single thing that yall agree upon.

[yaakov2]

(Cont.)

<font color="0000ff">…what about Judaism? How varied are the views? And what is the range of thought in Judaism about your same question regarding hate and enemies?</font>

This is an interesting question. Going on a side thought for a bit, I have a guess why Christianity is so much more variable than Judaism. Judaism is a religion of action, we practice our religion at our homes and workplaces, in addition to our synagogues. So while there might be wide variability between congregants eating habits (adherence to kashrut), there is less variability on the prayers (synagogue practices). Separate denominations don’t arise over each separate item. Whereas Christianity is a religion of belief, it is centered on the church. So, each difference is magnified in this one building and two separate procedures are unable to co-exist. Thus, each minute difference causes a new Christian denomination. My two cents.

Back to your question. Jewish views are as varied as people anywhere. However, we don’t have any central authority, so each rabbi has lots of latitude in their synagogues. Minor differences in practice or belief don’t cause splits in the congregation. Heh, most synagogues break up because a large minority doesn’t like the rabbi. But, the split makes a new synagogue, not a new denomination.

Regarding hate and enemies, I need a two part answer.
1) We don’t forgive on a whim. There are specific guidelines for people to forgive another. First, the person that committed the sin must publicly acknowledge their error. Second, the person must make some sort of restitution for their error. Third, the person must promise not to commit the error again. At this point, the person that was wronged can grant forgiveness.

2) While we don’t promote hatred either, it is foolhardy to forgive an enemy that is trying to destroy you. We respect our enemies (i.e. no torture, keep in reasonable conditions), but we confront them. If someone strikes our cheek, we are to strike them back. If a person commits evil, we must confront them. If not now, when? If not me, then who?

[chesed]

I agree with Yaakov's answer, Ba2. And yet I know he and I have different views, just as he said there are.

I know I could go to any temple anywhere and I would hear the same prayers all said in Hebrew. Sure, little things are different for each prayer book, but the order of the prayers is the same. And I could go to any denomination but I would have to accept their traditions. That is why I tend to shy away from the Orthodox services.

Yaakov said it very well in his bit about forgiveness. There is no magic spell that instantly rights a wrong without any action.

Hope all has been well with you.

Shalom

[ba2]

yaakov, you said, <font color="0000ff">“…Muhammad borrowed from BOTH Christianity and Judaism, it didn’t “break away” from either of our religions.”</font> Borrowing from other beliefs is probably the norm. Christianity definitely has its roots in Judaism but I have come to learn that it has borrowed from other old pagan religions too, Egyptian, Persian and Roman for sure. I have no qualms with that; it very well could be that those precursors were acceptable Christian practice, even if meaningless.

Regarding the variability of Christian faith, you said, <font color="0000ff">“…tell me about it. Several years ago, I posted my short definition of a Christian. Several Christians disagreed with it. I don’t know of a single thing that yall agree upon... So, each difference is magnified in this one building and two separate procedures are unable to co-exist. Thus, each minute difference causes a new Christian denomination.”</font> Partially correct, I have attended a number of mainline churches (such as Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists) and really couldn’t tell much difference between them There are differences in “dogma” but it generally isn’t very evident in the service, which is somewhat how you explained Judaism. This is very different with the fundamental Baptists, especially the independent ones. There, the minister can sound somewhat mainline, or sound like he is from another planet, however the Baptist service is very different than any of those other churches. I think this is where the various Christian cults break out of. Example: Jim Jones was a Baptist minister from Indiana. My two cents.

Regarding Judaism you said, <font color="0000ff">“most synagogues break up because a large minority doesn’t like the rabbi. But, the split makes a new synagogue, not a new denomination.”</font> This is generally true of Christian churches too. But anyone could become a Christian minister. Just claim your faith in Jesus and put out a shingle turning your living room into an independent Christian church. This, I believe is the biggest problem. Anyone with any hair brain idea or biblical interpretation can start a following. Putting the sign out saying they are an “Independent Fundamental Baptist” church gives them a little credibility to the general public, but that sign says very little about their actual dogma or training. Very susceptible to abuse and fraud.

I must admit I know very little about Islam but what you are saying about it goes along with my limited knowledge of it. It was an Islamic co-worker who suggested to me that Islam was more varied than Christianity.

[ba2]

yaakov and chesed,
I like your take regarding forgiveness. Why would anyone forgive someone if they were not in any way remorseful and when possible, making some sort of restitution?

Regarding hate and enemies, I’m not sure you answered the question, but I would say we should show love towards our enemies, not hatred. I think the golden rule sets the tone, “treat others as you wish to be treated” and in war this has a special connotation. It does not mean we let them run over us, it does not mean we turn the other cheek, as some say. To me, it means exactly what you suggested (i.e. no torture, keep in reasonable conditions) but I totally agree, confront them.

Thank you both for those interesting comments.

[skooter942000]

Mocking Christianity,
- (Is what a TARE would do).



A son of JUDAH (by Birthright),
would not attack "CHRIST".



http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[chesed]

Another bit from Fiddler on the Roof when the Jews of the town are facing forcible eviction on order from the czar....

Villager says: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
Tevye says: Very good. That way the whole world will be blind and toothless.

One cannot turn the other cheek, instantly giving an evil person. One must act to make the world a better place. Tevye's belief in what to do in the face of evil is well stated in his quote above.

BTW it's a great movie. And Yaakov, thanks for sharing the folklore. There is always good in people.

Shalom.