True Christians Will Have a Job to Do

[called]

The true saints will not go wafting off to heaven at Jesus Christ's return. Rather, we will have a challenging and exciting responsibility under Christ who will be King of kings. For Revelation 2:26-27 states: "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the potter's vessels shall be broken to pieces'--as I also have received from My Father."

Notice that our future role is to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Obviously, there are not rebellious nations up in heaven! So we will be stationed here on earth, where the problems are and where we can work with Christ to provide the solutions.

In the "prayer of the saints" given in Revelation 5:8-10, it indicates that God has "made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth." And Jesus promised the twelve apostles: "And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Luke 22:29-30).

Individual Christian "overcomers" will rule over cities. And each of the twelve apostles will rule over an entire tribe of Israel here on earth. To whom will the twelve apostles report?

In describing the regathering of the people of Israel from their captivity in the coming Great Tribulation, God inspired Hosea to write, "Afterward the children of Israel shall return, seek the LORD their God and David their king, and fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days" (Hosea 3:5). So in the "latter days," all Israel will be regathered and King David will be resurrected from the dead--along with all of God's true saints--and he will rule again over all Israel. In Jeremiah 30, God describes how He will restore Israel from its coming captivity: "Foreigners shall no more enslave them. But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up for them" (vv. 8-9). Note that nearly all scholars agree that Jeremiah was written about 600 B.C.--nearly 400 years after King David's death. So these scriptures are describing what happens at the time of the resurrection from the dead (John 5:28-29). Jesus Christ will return as King OF kings. The literal King David of the Bible will be resurrected to become one of these spirit-born kings reporting to Christ. Serving under David will be the twelve apostles. And serving under them will be thousands of the true saints of God--ruling over individual cities as we have already seen in Luke 19:11-19.

"David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them" (Ezek. 37:24). So all Israel shall once again learn God's laws and His statutes. And the people will have rulers who are fully instructed and skilled in the laws of God--something God always intended (Deut. 17:18-20).

King David stated glowingly: "Oh, how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day. You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies; for they are ever with me" (Ps. 119:97-98).

http://www.pars.net/~lkwhite/page/giw/giw-12.html

[shem]

I basically agree with what you have said, but you speak of the 'future'. The title of this thread should be: True Christians Have a Job to Do NOW!

[called]

I agree Shem!

[sharon]

I also agree, lots of work to do. So lets get cracken!!

[bluewater2]

"Onward Christian soldiers, marching off to war." Sounds lovely.

[franklin]

Sounds better than "Onward Atheist soldiers marching off to murder and maim believers in God".

Shades of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, murderer's, rogues, atheists all!

[bluewater2]

Fortunately, there is no song written with those lyrics. Phew!

[sharon]

and when it is all said and done....
NEARER MY GOD TO THEE!

[bluewater2]

That is the claim by some. Proof is in the pudding, as they say.

[yaakov2]

I just heard about real life christian soldiers.
http://www.forceministries.com/

[rachelengland]

"Sounds better than "Onward Atheist soldiers marching off to murder and maim believers in God.
Shades of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, murderer's, rogues, atheists all"!(Franklin)

OH BOY-that one gave me a good laugh, you don't hold back do ya Franklinhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif!!!!!

(Message edited by rachelengland on February 26, 2007)

[bluewater2]

Hi Yaakov. I read that article and it disgusts me. So little respect for people with other points of view. Just narrow minded belief that god is on their side. They are waiting for god to rain down on their compound. So I guess if their belief is that god is an active god, not the passive one that sits back and watches man kill himself, his activity is also seen in the "raining down of mortar shells" upon the innocents over there since our "liberation" of the Iraqi's from their brutal dictator because Bush had a boner for the guy who tried to kill his daddy. I'm sure all of the Shiites just love to see these americans with all of their big weapons standing around in a christian prayer circle in their country. So little respect for those that think differently.

[fatherofaking]

Proof is in the pudding, as they say.

proof is in the testing.

nobody can prove to anyone else the truth of any religion.
it must be proven on an individual level.

i cannot even say that suicide bombers do not recieve the promise they believe comes from such an act.

i can argue the morality of it.
i can say that it is not true based on my belief that killing another human being is wrong.

however, it is only a belief of mine that i am basing it on, not experience.

i do not believe that good results can come from believing a lie.
so i think that once these things are tested the individual will know whether it is the truth.

we all can be an example of the truth or a lie.
the example that we are to others is the only proof we have of what we believe.

[yaakov2]

Bluewater

I don't know how you made the fantastic leap to connect these two subjects. However, I have now found a subject in which I disagree with you completely, the Iraqi liberation. Some good may come from it; perhaps Franklin will be pleased with our disagreement.

[bluewater2]

I love the idea of liberation, but the method is all wrong. I do not believe the "doctrine of preemption" is a valid one. I do not think that we will begin to turn the tide there, and the entire middle east, until we come to terms with that.

[fatherofaking]

we are simply being a bad example.

how can we kill innocent people in the name of god and condemn suicide bombings in the same breath?

then to have the gaul to say that what we believe is the truth and what they believe is a lie.

[rachelengland]

There is nothing Romantic about war..it kills, it wounds and it divides...and yet it seems thru the ages inevitable..

I remember discussing sometime ago with many of you the cause of this recent war..the vote was in this war was about oil..I said it was religiously influenced...now all of a sudden when we see a few christians obviously strong in their ways praying for others to "see the light" it has become a religious war... R

(Message edited by rachelengland on February 26, 2007)

[bluewater2]

I don't consider it a religous war at all, I just see these open displays of religious zeal by the American army in a country that is not their own as a stupid move that is insensitive and disrespectful. It is not a smart move at all, but the war was not started from a position of inteligence.

[skooter942000]

RE: From bluewater2

It is not a smart move at all,
but the war was not started from a position of inteligence.

-------------------------------------------

= Dan 8 - (& 11)


-(GOD decides)-
- Not mankind -

HE is in CONTROL
HE owns IT ALL


-To INFER GOD,
- as being un_intelligent.

= Not a wise career move.



- OPEN YOUR EYES -


(http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif)

[bluewater2]

I see. So god is working through George Bush. If your answer to that is yes, then god is an absolutly poor judge of character.

[skooter942000]

GOD works through whoever HE chooses to.

GOD even works through satan.

satan is a servant of GOD, (In the Negative sense).


This AGE is about THE-TESTINGS.


To see where the Hearts of his children are at.


The Wicked Children, are not going to be around
- much longer.

Like the DREGS removed from the VAT,
(When purifying the GRAPES in making WINE),
- they shall be removed from the EARTH.

& Then "Blotted Out". (Their Choice)

- We each sail our own ship.

- Some are on the high-seas, - to Destruction.




- FACTS are FACTS (While one dwells in the Flesh),
- it is never too late to say SORRY,
- to the Creator. - (In "HIS SONS" Holy Name)
-For past mistakes.


= JESUS CHRIST/YESHUA MESSIAH


Eternal Life is a CHOICE,
- not a RIGHT.





Don <*))><

[bluewater2]

Eternal life is a myth, not a fact.

[fatherofaking]

eternal life is an experience not a doctrine.

it does not need explaining to those that have experienced what god has to offer.

[bluewater2]

Do you know of anyone who has experienced this, or is there any historical testimony by anyone who has ever known anyone, or is this one of the things that one must take on blind faith? Is there even any circumstantial evidence that it might exist beyond Oiji boards, etc? I am also curious what the experience of what god has to offer has to do with believing in life after death. The promise of life after death is the only thing that an atheist gives up the ability to experience.

[fatherofaking]

when you experience a relationship with god you know eternal life.
there is no question as to whether it is true.

those that have not experienced this will always deny that it is real.

that is understandable.
how could anyone believe this without experiencing it.

i have tested the promise and found it to be true.

[bluewater2]

I would not question your statement as to whether it is true for you. I question your statement if it is true, period. Just because it is the belief of some because they believe it is so, does not make it truth, like the sun is real, or the moon is real, whether you believe it or not.

[fatherofaking]

it is true that i have chosen to interpret my experience in a religious context.

those that experience it in a different context will call it something else.

it is however the same experience for all.

[bluewater2]

What does eternal life mean to you?

[fatherofaking]

keep in mind this is an interpretation of an experience in a religious context.

it is the overcoming of the fear of death.

we can experience death now.
if we are willing to do that then we will overcome the fear and experience eternal life.


this is not some intellectual ascent i am talking about.
it is an actual experience achieved through the use of belief.

[bluewater2]

I have no fear of death, but that is unrealated to a belief in eternal life. I do not understand how the two are related. Either there is eternal life or there isn't. Maybe I am dense, but I did not understand your explanation of what your think eternal life is.

[termin8d]

Eternal life is God Himself.

[bluewater2]

That makes no sense, unless you are telling me that when you pass into the next life you become god. Please explain. Thank you.

[skooter942000]

ALMIGHTY YAH - (Is The BEGINNING and END)

That appears to be Eternal as i see it.


Definitions
eternal
adj

1. Without beginning or end; everlasting.

Thesaurus: everlasting, perpetual, limitless,
unending, undying, never-ending, interminable,
constant, ceaseless, timeless, perennial,
enduring; Antonym: changeable, ephemeral,
temporary.

2. Unchanging; valid for all time.

3. colloq
Frequent or endless.

4. A name for God.

Form: the Eternal

http://www.allwords.com/index.php






Rev 21:6-8
And he said unto me, It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst
of the fountain of the water of life freely.


He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake
which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

Simple enough for all to see.

- Even for a Supposed Atheist.

[trainedobserver]

The fear of death. As a believer in the supernatural, and the Christian myths in particular, I viewed death alternately as a final reward for believing in Jesus and a lake of fire. Claiming to have no fear of death but being intellectually honest enough to not be completely certain that I had "got it right" caused a great deal of unhealthy incongruence. What is perhaps worse than fearing death is looking forward to it. A living thing that sees its death as a desirable event is unhealthy and any ideology that elevates death above life is unhealthy and I want nothing to do with it.

When I accepted the fact that the supernatural does not exist anymore than Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy does. I was forced by observation to conclude that all living things die. All living things. Therefore it is a natural and eventual state of being or ... uh non-being.

I am going to die one day. It is inevitable. Anything they have going with gene therapy and organ cloning won't be here soon enough for me. I know I'm going to die and it although I find it regrettable that I will no longer 'be' ... I also realize I won't be aware of it. So there is nothing to fear and nothing to look forward to. This one life is all we know that we have. We should live it that way. As history teaches us, our deaths will come all too soon and last for a very, very, long time.

Love life and appreciate the moment you are in, it is the only one you know you will ever have.

[skooter942000]

- See Ecc Chapter THREE


http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Ecc/Ecc003.html#top


28 Things MANKIND shall experience in the FLESH.
- In one form or another.

Ecc 3:1 ¶ To every [thing there is] a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:



BTW/

The # 28 = "Eternal Life".

"Earth" [x] "Spiritual Perfection" = "Eternal Life"
-or 4 x 7 = 28



"ALMIGHTY GOD'S - plan" - (Is Perfect)

[friend]

What is it about Jesus command to "love your enemies" do folks not get? I don't think he meant, love your enemies then kill them.

As Christians we cannot take a life...period. Those who wrap themselves in nationalism and the flag are serving a kingdom other than God's.

[skooter942000]

RE: (from friend)

As Christians we cannot take a life...period.

-----------------------------------------

Is this what the Bible teaches?

At times (yes)
At other times (NO)

- Ecc 3 notes this.


People have the RIGHT to PROTECT THEMSELVES (Y/N)?



ALMIGHTY GOD is going to KILL satan.


- Is this a SIN in your sight?

- Think about it.





This is speaking of SOULS PERISHING.
- Not flesh men.


Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine;
as the soul of the father, so also the
soul of the son is mine:
the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


|
|
V

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written
in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire.

= Death of the SOUL

[ezekiel_37]

<font color="ff0000">As Christians we cannot take a life...period. Those who wrap themselves in nationalism and the flag are serving a kingdom other than God's.</font>

God is using the USA and the COMMONWEALTH to further the Word of God, and to exact His plans. These are the blessed nations of the world, just look around. Maybe YOU are Israel!

Many Christians are fighting for their country right now. They love God and are willing to die to protect the rights and freedoms that we are given by His Word, the basis for our current law.

Have you even read the bible friend?

The history of the people that Christians came from have been killing (justifiably) for a long long time. Murder, for example, is not allowed (to lie in wait-criminal homicide), but dispatching a murderer to God, by the hands of the kinsmen(sp) redeemer...is God's command. If there are 2 witnesses, send them to God, by stoning.

It is a shame that good Christians do not follow this today in their law(some states still do have capital punishment, but most don't), as killing a murderer publicly, sure would be a great deterrent for 'would be' murderers (criminals).....not to mentions so called lighter crimes of rape and torture. What an amazing deterrent that would be....


Wisdom


Peace in Christ
c

[plow_deep]

Hi Ezekiel,

Can you point me to where in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are instructed to take a life?

Thanks.

Peace

[friend]

As a Christian, I follow the teachings of Jesus. The rest of the Bible is interpreted through His words. Jesus laid down what is expected of His followers in Matt. 4,5 and 6. The passages are very clear.

Not only that, the early Christians were pacifists. It was not until Constantine did Christians begin to take lives.

With all the religious violence in our world, Christians are called to be a seperate people, peacemakers.

Many Christian groups are pacifist: Quakers, Mennonites, Amish, Community of Christ, Seventh-day Adventist, Church of the Brethren, etc.

Churches which align themselves with the State (sound familiar) such as the churches under Hitler, are quick to take up the sword. Christians are called to a higher standard...even if that means our own death.

If you would like more information on why I believe that a Christian cannot kill, see the following:

http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm
http://www.ecapc.org/
http://www.bluffton.edu/~mastg/pacifism.htm
http://www.qhpress.org/quakerpages/qwhp/dec1660.htm

However, and this is important, war is not only fought with guns and swords, but can be fought with words as well. So, if you're lookin' for a fight around this issue, it aint'a gonna happen http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif.

God's peace ya'll!
http://www.nonresistance.org/

[ezekiel_37]

Plow Deep

Hi there,

If an evil man(men) were to invade your house and try to kill you, or "hurt" your family, would you just let them?

I would do EVERYTHING in my power to stop that including killing them if I had to.

I believe in the Old Test. A little more literally than most I guess. The Israelites were commanded by God to KILL all who tried to convert them, bring gods.....

there are many, many Old Test examples, and that is what the Old Test is for, an example to us.

New Test, since that is what you reguard (so do I-and I also like your order) speaks of this aswell, but more in prophecy.

Christ is to come back and destroy the evil from the planet. He will kill all flesh at His 7th trump arrival.

But I know what you mean. We should strive not to kill, but if we have to, we have to....for protective purposes.

Police
Army
or the guy in his house that has to defend his family.



There are justifiable reasons for killing...non for MURDER.


I hope that this satisfies you on my stance.

I wish I had further time to discuss but I gotta go

Be back on MONDAY

Peace in Christ
c

[skooter942000]

DID CHRIST CHANGE THE LAW?

- Y/N?

In CHRIST (We can find forgiveness).
- (If we REPENT)

- We now have GRACE.



What did CHRIST say about MURDER?
What was the LAW concerning this?

Did CHRIST CHANGE IT?


Scriptures please.


- I'll post mine after.




Ahhhh, i can't wait....

NOTE Matt chapter 5 (JOT/TITTLE)

[&amp;]


Mat 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by
them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and
whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of
the judgment:


- What JUDGMENT IS THIS?
|
|
V
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu019.html#10




Is there a DIFFERENCE Between MURDER and KILLING?


We are to protect ourselves...

CHRISTIANS have the RIGHT to defend themselves.

Peter carried a SWORD.

- Can i ask you dear ("FRIEND")
- why he carried a Sword?



GOD taught Israel to WAR. (T/F)

- Still no answer here?

If you desire to be a Pacifist (FINE).
But you should count your lucky stars
there are people who fight for you
in this Nation (The Service men), and Policemen.





satan is sentenced to perish.

GOD is going to accomplish this.

The LAKE if FIRE, - (is a FUTURE REALITY).

The second death ,(is a future reality), for some.


Deu 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he,
and [there is] no god with me: I kill,
and I make alive; I wound, and I heal:
neither [is there any] that can deliver out
of my hand.


Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven,
and say, I live for ever.


Deu 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword,
and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will
render vengeance to mine enemies, and will
reward them that hate me.


AMEN &amp; AMEN


Don <*))><

[skooter942000]

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy
the law, or the prophets: I am not come to
destroy, but to fulfil.


Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till
heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle
shall in no wise pass from the law, till all
be fulfilled.


- There is another ADVENT TO COME.


Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one
of these least commandments, and shall teach
men so, he shall be called the least in the
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and
teach [them], the same shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven.



[&amp;]


Mat 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by
them of old time, Thou shalt not kill;
and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of
the judgment:


- What JUDGMENT IS THIS?

|
|
V
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu019.html#10


- In the "END"

"ALMIGHTY GOD" demands Capital Punishment.
- The LAKE of FIRE is further PROOF of this.


Though we are to follow the LAWS of THE LAND.
- CHRIST TAUGHT US THIS. (In detail)


Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness,
and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?


Mat 22:19 Shew me the tribute money.
And they brought unto him a penny.


Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them,
Whose [is] this image and superscription?


Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's.
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore
unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's;
and unto God the things that are God's.



If the LAWS of the LAND are UNJUST.
- If they STRAY from GOD'S LAWS...


'we'__ 'the'__ 'people'....
- (need to vote , and correct them)!!!

Child molesters and Murderers are supposed
to be sent to GOD. (HIS WORDS ARE CLEAR).


Their BLOOD is Required (And is on GOD'S HANDS).
- Not ours.



- That is GOD'S WAY!!!

Deu 19:9 If thou shalt keep all these
commandments to do them, which I command
thee this day, to love the LORD thy God,
and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt
thou add three cities more for thee,
beside these three:


Deu 19:10 That innocent blood be not shed
in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth
thee [for] an inheritance, and [so] blood
be upon thee.


Deu 19:11 ¶ But if any man hate his neighbour,
and lie in wait for him, and rise up against
him, and smite him mortally that he die,
and fleeth into one of these cities:


Deu 19:12 Then the elders of his city shall
send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into
the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may
die.


Deu 19:13 Thine eye shall not pity him,
but thou shalt put away [the guilt of] innocent
blood from Israel, that it may go well with
thee.


All these peoples meeting at prisons should
read these verses a few times.


Thine eye shall not pity him
Thine eye shall not pity him



I'll say again:
- (We are to obey the LAWS in our LAND).

- We are to obey the LAWS in OUR STATES.

And if they oppose GOD'S INSTRUCTIONS,
VOTE to correct them!!!




This Nation is our Inheritance.
- We should keep it CLEAN.

- Until our LORD Returns.

[friend]

Hello Skooter! Your posts are a bit hard to read, but you seem to have one question directed at my post. You ask why Peter carried a sword. Good question!

Could you post the verses in which Peter is said to have carried a sword that you are refering to?

You also ask, did Christ change the law? Nope, he fulfilled it! "You have heard it said...but I say..."

Cool huh? Christ came and upset both the religious leaders and the political leaders. He came to establish God's Kingdom. Talking to a Samaritan woman, hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes, telling us to love our enemies no matter what. Radical stuff! But Jesus was a radical dude.

God's peace!

[friend]

Ezekiel, you ask, "If an evil man(men) were to invade your house and try to kill you, or "hurt" your family, would you just let them?

I would do EVERYTHING in my power to stop that including killing them if I had to."

First, there are two Kingdoms. In the Kingdom of God, I believe that we are not allowed to take a life. The "State" is not the Kingdom of God, so the rules Jesus gave us in the Sermon on the Mount do not apply to them.

And to answer your question above...every pacifist prays that this would never happen. I pray also that if it did, God would grant me the grace to remain faithful to what I believe Jesus requires of me. No one can honestly answer the question you pose unless one is in that situation.

So...that's the honest answer. Hope you have a great day!

God's peace!

[ezekiel_37]

Hi There Friend,

So, In your opinion, the Police(to serve and protect)are not doing what is right in God's eyes then?

I mean they have to, now and then, take a life. The taking of that life can preserve many lives. The Many outweigh the few! I look forward to a time when there will be NO violence at all, but that will not happen until the Messiah returns.

Peace in Christ
c

[friend]

Tough question Exekiel! I am not God so I dare not judge the police. However, as a follower of the teachings of Jesus I could not kill.

My understanding is that being nonviolent and/or pacifist is a conviction from the Holy Spirit.

There is a great story that William Penn, after he became a Quaker, approached George Fox (one of the early Quaker leaders). Penn was concerned that he shouldn't carry his sword. Fox told Penn, "carry that sword as long as you can."

I agree with that. Carry your gun/sword/weapon as long as you can. When you can no longer in good consious carry it, then it must be laid down.

That is my understanding in a lot of things. If we truly ask God what we should do and really really listen to that Still Small Voice, there will be no doubt what the right thing is. But the bottom line is we just can't judge others as to their standing with God. We can say that we understand something to be wrong for a Christian, but we ALL see through a glass darkly and our persception is always limited. Thank goodness for grace, huh?

And I agree with you, there can be no complete end of violence until the Kingdom is consumated. Until then, however, we as followers of the Lamb must live our lives in accordance with the commands of Jesus as best we understand them.

Did you get a chance to look at some of the links I posted on pacifism and the Christian?

Hope you day is going well!

[skooter942000]

Friend - (see JOHN 18) about Peter.

A Murderer is supposed to be KILLED.


CHRIST did fulfill the LAW.
But this does not ERASE IT.


We are not SAVED BY IT.
WE now have GRACE.



In Rev 20

-Our WORKS are JUDGED by The LAW.

Just because CHRIST fulfilled what HE came to,
- does not Negate it!!!!

There is Another ADVENT (T/F)


- Flesh is Still Flesh , (Right)?


LAWS
STATUTES
ORDINANCES

- Learn the Subtle Differences in these.


- Not all were NAILED to HIS CROSS!!!



LOVE GOD (Ex 20:1-12)
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (Ex 20:13-17)

- Are these Done away?

The health Laws,
- (Where did CHRIST Negate these)?


Scriptures please http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif



Don <*))><

[friend]

Afternoon Don! Pacifists actually use John 18 to show that we should not harm others with weapons (or words for that matter).

The key to the whole passage is: ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my disciples would be fighting that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this world.' (John 18:36)

Why did Peter have a sword anyway? The passage does not tell us. So, we have to look elsewhere for what is required of us. Jesus says, "Resist not evil," and "love your enemies." Hey, I even have a butcher knife http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifbut I wouldn't think of killing anyone with it. It works well for cutting cornbread however.

The question about the law vs. gospel. That is quite a discussion topic! No time to respond. Although, I have several Seventh-day Adventist friends that would agree with you...and they're pacifists.

Be good!

(Message edited by friend on March 12, 2007)

[ezekiel_37]

Friend

Hi there, hope your day is going well.

Rough times then, Peter had a sword for protection, as (in the past) most free Americans did. Kinda like the wild west.

Peter had a sword, had amazing skill with it, as he didn't KILL the soldier, but chopped his ear off.

And he wasn't a totally peaceful (non violent)even at Jesus' deliverance....after 3 years of 1 on 1 ministry.

Jews (and Benjaminites)were following the Law. Christ followed the Law. The Law had reasons for killing. So should we.....then those bad guys and gals would have an example to act as a detourent(sp?). That would be great. No more (or much less)rape and murder....


Peace in Christ
c

[skooter942000]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

- Good day to you (Friend).




JESUS and the MONEY CHANGERS...

Was HE a Pacifist when throwing them OUT of the TEMPLE?

- [whoo-wee]
-'i' think not!!!



When HE returns (At the 2cd Advent)

- Look at HIS DEEDS.
- See (Rev 14:14 - ON)


BTW/

Sickles are not meant for harvesting GRAPES.
What a Bloody mess that would be -(HINT/HINT)

= Symbolism at it's best!!!

= The Wrath of God



And Thou shalt not KILL , - points to MURDER.
Not KILLING - (For Protection), as a Soldier would. (or a Police officer)




Mat 5:21 Ye have heard 191 that 3754
it was said 4483 by them of old time 744,
Thou shalt 5407 0 not 3756 kill 5407 ;
and 1161 whosoever 3739 302 shall kill 5407
shall be 2071 in danger 1777 of the judgment 2920:

Strong's #5407. phoneuo / fon-yoo'-o from 5406;
to be a murderer (of):--kill, do murder, slay.


CHRIST was trying to teach us a better way.
- But Evil still exists.

And we have a "GOD"_(GIVEN)_"RIGHT",
- to protect ourselves. (When Needed)

No one is to TAKE a LIFE (COMMIT MURDER).
- That is what CHRIST was teaching.


If anyone does (They shall pay the FULL Penalty).
- The Penalty is DEATH. = (A LAWFUL EXECUTION)

As i said, (We are to obey the LAWS of the LAND).
If there is not a death penalty. (Then VOTE)

The LAND will retain the BLOOD, until the GUILTY
PARTY is REMOVED , (Or dies a Natural Death).

- See CAIN and ABEL about this... (Gen 4:10)



Life in JAIL ,(Is not GOD'S WAY),
- for a CONVICTED MURDERER. (it's mans way)




If a RAPIST (or Pedophile) was KILLED = GOD'S LAW,
(They would never get out to do this again).

How many have committed this crime (Habitually)?
Because we did not send them to GOD. (LAWFULLY)


&amp; Who's fault is it?

We have our part ,
-(If we don't take out the TRASH).


- Strong language?

- You bet!!!


There are TWO JUDGMENTS FOR MURDER.

One from MAN.
ONE FROM GOD.


We may fall short in this at times.
- But "ALMIGHTY_GOD"_WON'T!!!


1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a
murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath
eternal life abiding in him.


1Jo 3:16 ¶ Hereby perceive we the love
[of God], because he laid down his life for us:
and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.




Also note:

Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill 07523 .

Strong's #7523 ratsach / raw-tsakh' a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), <font color="ff0000">especially to murder:</font>--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).



Yes, "MURDER" is a "WICKED SIN".




Don <*))><

[ezekiel_37]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[friend]

Well Skooter and Ezekiel, you sound like your minds are made up so there's not much I can say to make you change your mind. Not much into endless debate.

All I would ask of both of you is to keep listening to God's Spirit. That Spirit will lead us ALL unto Truth if we will just "be still".

In addition to the above websites, which address all of what you have written, I recommend this one: www.jesusforbidswar.org (http://www.jesusforbidswar.org)

For those who do believe that Jesus forbid us to take a life either by war, murder, self defense, abortion, etc., then I would encourage you to check out this site for links to churches which follow the command to love our enemies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_churches

Above all, read the Gospels! Endless debate about doctrine is fun, but what is life changing is obeying what Jesus actually taught. If we spend our lives using the Sermon on the Mount as our guide, then we will have lived well indeed.

And remember...we ALL see through a glass darkly.

God's peace!

[skooter942000]

- with LOVE , (Comes correction) - (T/F)

If our own Children do WRONG,
we are to be there to help them. (To Guide them)



- Read Deut 28

We are WARNED to be GOODLY CHILDREN.

(If we do not abide in this RULE,
- we shall be punished).



If we showed this kind of love (Today),
many would enter into HEAVEN. (And not HELL)

We are to love others ,( i certainly do).


If you see a child on the wrong (PATH),
would you punish them ,(in LOVE),
to help straighten them out?

- You bet!!!


In some cases (KILLING SOMEONE LAWFULLY),
will stop others from committing the same CRIME.
- (Of MURDER).

- That's a FACT!!!


The DEATH PENALTY IS A GREAT DETERRENT.
- Never let anyone teach you different.


"FEAR" , ("GODLY FEAR") , - is good.




This was asked of CHRIST (ONCE).

Luk 10:25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood
up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall
I do to inherit eternal life?


Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in
the law? how readest thou?


Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt
love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy strength,
and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as
thyself.


Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast
answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself,
said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?


- Listen to what HIS Reply (IS)...

|
|
V
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk010.html#30



- Are MURDERERS your Neighbor?

(Do they LOVE GOD)? #1 Commandment
(Do they love OTHERS) #2 Commandment

If they obeyed these LAWS,
(They would not be a MURDERER).

We are taught to send them to GOD.
CHRIST never changed this LAW.

With TRUE LOVE , - (Comes correction).



CHRISTIANS are not DOOR-(MATS),
- for the world to walk upon.




With LOVE comes RESPECT.

Do those who desire to MURDER US, (Respect us)?

- I think not.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif


Shall we lay down our ARMS and let the ENEMY
walk over us (and make us their SLAVES)?

- Think back to EGYPT.
(And the 400 years of Bondage)

- "Who" took advantage of "WHO".




Sorry - (NO SALE)


Jealous people want what we have.
If you decide to serve them , (Go right ahead).


I'll stand by GOD, (and resist), - the Enemy.

Ecc 3:1 ¶ To every [thing there is] a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

|
|
V

Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate;
a time of war, and a time of peace.

---------
------------
---------------

Mat 24:6-8
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled: for all [these
things] must come to pass, but the end is not
yet.


For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall
be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes,
in divers places.


All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

[friend]

With all due respect skooter, Christian pacifists are not doormats as you suggest. It does mean that we believe that Love will always win out. That has been proven again and again by Amish, Brethren, Mennonites and Quakers.

It does means that we trust God to be our Protector. It means that when I put my head on my pillow tonight, I will trust in God, not a weapon, to protect my family. It means that if someone were to kill me tomorrow, that I would wake up with my Heavenly Father...and that's alright with me. I will have died knowing that all my life I attempted to live by the teachings of Jesus, including to love my enemies (which was in answer to an "eye for an eye").

You might not agree or understand Skooter, but I have to tell you that I am more secure as a pacifist than I ever would be as a believer in violence as a means to an end. And you know what, you don't have to agree with me. It is not my job to argue you or anyone else against a position that you hold. My job is to encourage people to listen to the Still Small Voice, to hear God not in our rational mind ("an eye for an eye"), but in our hearts ("love your enemies").

The Kingdom of God is coming and the lion SHALL lie down with the Lamb. For those of us who believe that we are ambassadors for that Kingdom, we MUST obey that which we have heard from God.

My prayer for you Skooter, is not that you become a pacifist, but that you would always be open to hearing God's Voice even if what you hear shakes the foundation of your deepest understandings. That is the prayer I pray for myself everyday.

God's peace

[ezekiel_37]

Samson

example.

God empowered him to kill, which in retrospect was saving millions of Hebrew lives.

If a bad guy (Satan's henchman) attacks me or my family, I pray that God empowers me to send them strait to Him, for correction....if that is the only alternative. Friend, you wouldn't even have a country (free as it is) if it were not for this FACT.

Sometimes it is necessary to correct someone with physical force. This is the flesh age after all.... and most are Not Sons of God.

I am not afraid to die, but I will not go down without a fight. Someone that won't protect their family is worse than an infidel. And them's some pretty heavy words. God has work for us to do here, and a bad man/woman is not going to stop me (by His Power)if it be possible.

We are to get along with people IF IT BE POSSIBLE, but as you can plainly see, that is not always possible (terrorists, atheistic neighbors, satanists.....polititions (lol))



"an eye for an eye" is not the correct pattern.

Love your enemies, BY CORRECTING THEM, and sometimes more correction is needed than a simple shout of words. Sometimes we should correct them all the way to God.

As I have said in the past, what a great example that would be to other 'would be' murderers, rapists, and other disgusting souls.

Maybe you want these people around, Friend, but I just don't. After all, this is what the flesh age is about, weeding out the losers...those that won't play by the rules.

Christ taught us what is to become of these souls. Destroyed forever.

Dispatch them to the Father, He knows how to sort it out.

Peace is what I strive for, but a good Christian should understand that peace will NOT come until the King arrives. God can empower you to stand against the firey darts of Satan, and overcome... That includes his evil henchmen who would certainly kill you given the chance.


Nope, I got tooooo much work to do here to give up my life without a battle. And I respect my children and wife tooooo much to just "let" harm come to them. They have to work for God aswell.


Good Luck.

Find true Peace 'in' Christ
c

[friend]

Ezekiel writes: "Find true Peace 'in' Christ
c"

So, true peace only comes through believing you have the duty, not only the right, to kill? Hummm...that is quite Orwellian.

You are relying on your own power for protection. God says to trust Him. Bottom line. Taking up our cross to follow Jesus is hard, especially if we follow what HE taught. We can play with words all we want, we can reference the Hebrew Scriptures, we can quote the Republican party platform, we can get our worldview from James Dobson...that doesn't change what Jesus taught. Matthew 4, 5 and 6 is my guiding principle. If I am wrong for following Jesus, then so be it.

I would be curious, do you think one must disavow pacifism to be a Christian? Is that what your saying?

[ezekiel_37]

<font color="119911">...relying on my own power to survive</font>

Where did you get that from? From my writing above....

<font color="ff0000">If a bad guy (Satan's henchman) attacks me or my family, <font size="+1">I pray that God empowers me</font> to send them strait to Him, for correction....<font size="+1">if that is the only alternative. </font>Friend, you wouldn't even have a country (free as it is) if it were not for this FACT.

Sometimes it is necessary to correct someone with physical force. This is the flesh age after all.... and <font size="+1">most are Not Sons of God.

</font></font>

I really don't want you to consider me an enemy Friend. I would rather we agree on topics, not argue them. We can be Brothers/Sisters/Siblings in Christ.

I get my experience from the Word of God. I am (what most consider to be)Born Again, a true lover of the Lord.

I am by no means perfect but I do believe that my concience is tutored by biblical principals, and led by the Holy Spirit. I wowuld DIE to protect my family.



Christ is THE Sacrifice for ALL. What does Christ do when He returns? Is He to be a pacifist? Not!

I don't want to have to kill anyone (never have), but if the situation arises where it is either them or me(or my family), may God give me the strength to endure.

The WHOLE WORD is my guiding principal, not just parts of It. And I follow Christ (as you say you do) and I definitely believe that there are times when it is necessary to take a life for the greater good. Taking out one bad guy and saving the lives of many is an admoration, not a detriment as you claim.

Remember 911...if those terrorists had been killed before hand, 1000's of lives would have been saved, and we could have many, many more witnesses to Truth, alive and well working for Our Father in His Son's name.

Protection, not random acts of violence.

If being a pacifist is for you, go to it. I am certainly looking forward to the time when all of God's children need not worry about any evil...and when death is destroyed, but look around. That time is not yet. There will be Wars and rumours of Wars, until Christ's 7th Trump return.

Evil IS the way of the world, and may God grant all of us the ability to defeat evil at every turn, including death...for even it(he) is to be destroyed forever.

When I end with the salutation of 'Find Peace in Christ', or 'Peace in Christ'...it is not meant to show that we have peace (in the world) now, but that we all can find truth and life forever in Messiah. Without Him we are dead.

Sometimes it is not possible to get along with others, and correction is needed. Being a doormat (as said earlier) is not the roll of a Christian.

Sometimes a Christian death will serve a great purpose, but it certainly doesn't mean that we all are to be complete pacifists, not defend our home, family or self.

Christ did not teach that.

So, you find Peace in Christ, Friend.
c

[skooter942000]

From (Friend)

You might not agree or understand Skooter, but I have to tell you that I am more secure as a pacifist than I ever would be as a believer in violence as a means to an end.

-----------------8< ---cut------------------

Not agreeing, (is not the same as not understanding).



Definitions
pacifist
noun

1. Someone who believes that violence is unjustified and who refuses to take part in making war, either from a secular moral standpoint, or on religious grounds, and usually actively advocates efforts to maintain peace by supporting disarmament.

Thesaurus: conscientious objector, passive resister, dove, peace-lover; Antonym: hawk, warmonger.
Etymology: Early 20c: from French pacifiste; compare pacify.




Is CHRIST not our redeemer?

HOW DOES HE YET REDEEM , - (US)?


HE gave HIS LIFE - (To do this).
That meant someone took it from HIM.

- That was actually THE PLAN.


Friend,

- You appear to be HALF - PACIFIST.

- i have said my piece. Based on SCRIPTURE


CHRIST is not Returning as a BABE.
- HE is coming with a ROD.

There is a TIME for PEACE.
But also a TIME to WAR. (To protect our FREEDOMS)

- That is scriptural.


- That is [ RIGHT &amp; JUST ]


CHRIST is the PRINCE of PEACE.
That was HIS DUTY in the 1st Advent.



But HE returns as KING of KINGS,
and LORD of LORDS - (TO RULE) &amp; GOVERN
- at the Second Advent.


Peace is WONDERFUL, (When there can be PEACE)

- What does the BIBLE state here?
- (Concerning peace)




From the Disciples to CHRIST
- (From Matt 24)

what [shall be] the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world?


Mat 24:6-8
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all [these things] must come to pass,
but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall
be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes,
in divers places.


All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

|
|
V

Eze 13:16 [To wit], the prophets of Israel
which prophesy concerning Jerusalem,
and which see visions of peace for her,
and [there is] no peace, saith the Lord GOD.


- For the SPURIOUS JESUS is coming (Soon).





-Agape-

[friend]

You folks have too much time on your hands...lol. I've said all I can say and given web links to support my position, a position I believe is consistant with Jesus' teachings.

Out to throw the baseball with my son.

Have a good day.

God's peace!

[rachelengland]

Friend, if all men lived in the matter in which you do, there would be no reason to use violence, we would live in perfect peace. I do not see that happening on this Earth anytime soon but you are a beautiful example for all to follow.

All that tough talk from a guy who calls himself Skooterhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[skooter942000]

Rachel

Nice to see your still here , = Just Kidding


That is not a name i choose.
- It was a GIVEN NAME.

- Just so you know.

I do not actually (really) call myself this name.
But i am called it by Family and Friends.

Are you family?
Are you a friend?


Hmmmmmmmmm





yes, peace would be NICE &amp; (WONDERFUL).

When CHRIST Returns, (There shall be PEACE).


Until then (There shall not be true peace).

heck even here (With Rachel's message).
Was this shared with LOVE and PEACE?



'I' know the answer.
- (So does she)

- More to the POINT , (So does CHRIST)



To every [thing there is] a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
---------------------------------------------
A time to get, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, <font color="aa00aa">...and a time to cast away;</font>

[friend]

Rachel writes: "I do not see that happening on this Earth anytime soon but you are a beautiful example for all to follow."

That is a very nice thing to say. I have to tell you, however, that I still catch myself making war, even if it is just with words. My prayer is that I would grow into the likeness of Jesus more every day.

I actually understand Skooter and Ezekiel's point. We, as humans, want revenge. We want to take control of situations we see as dangerous. Hey, I do too. It is only by grace that I have not had to face a situation that I had to make a decision between what Jesus taught and harm coming to those I love. "Take up your cross" is a hard saying.

Thanks again my friend!

"But as I had forsaken the priests, so I left the separate preachers also, and those esteemed the most experienced people; for I saw there was none among them all that could speak to my condition. When all my hope in them and in all men were gone, so that I had nothing outwardly to help me, nor could I tell what to do, then, oh, then, I heard a voice which said, 'There is one ,even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition: and when I heard it, my heart did leap for joy."
---George Fox

[skooter942000]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

What is the difference between (REVENGE),
- (And JUSTICE)?


BTW / There is a DIFFERENCE.






'i' am all for JUSTICE , (_GOD IS TOO_)


- AND WHO IS THE REVENGER OF BLOOD?
"THE TRUE REVENGER OF BLOOD" - (Of us ALL).



(hint)

"HE" is our KINSMEN REDEEMER.
_____[&amp;]______
"Our" Closest Living Relative.



Forgiveness is one thing.
Allowing EVIL to MATURE &amp; GROW ,(is another).





Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power,
resisteth the ordinance of God:
and they that resist shall receive to
themselves damnation.


Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good
works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be
afraid of the power? do that which is good,
and thou shalt have praise of the same:


Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to
thee for good. But if thou do that which is
evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword
in vain: for he is the minister of God, a
revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that
doeth evil.


In CHRIST we may find forgiveness.
(*IF WE ASK*).
Not that (that) erases the PUNISHMENT.
- (That lies in GOD'S HANDS)



Rev 20: shows us the way here.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great,
stand before God; and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is [the book]
of life: and the dead were judged out of those
things which were written in the books,
according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which
were in it; and death and hell delivered up the
dead which were in them: and they were judged
every man according to their works.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written
in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire.




Is the above about

- Revenge?

- JUSTICE?

- (or BOTH)?


- Time to DISCERN

[friend]

I think we would agree, Skooter, justice is God's business. That, you have proven from the above passages.

How do you feel inside yourself about these passages? Sad, happy, compassion? What?

I'd like to see a few passages quoted on grace and God's love. They are in the scriptures too, yes?

Peace!

[called]

What amazes me is we all think we have it right, when Christianity today is nothing more than rampant confusion and contradictions, We have literally thousands of so called Christian churches sects and denominations today, and not one of them follow teach and practice only what was taught and practiced by the apostles themselves in the first century, what’s wrong with this picture? We say that were all Christians and that were all part of the one body of Christ even though we fight and argue like hell over church doctrine! And are divided into thousands of different groups! Were all going straight to hell without exception because none of us are Christian enough to admit when were wrong and bow down to the pure word of God as it is written, this is a joke!
The name of this thread is {TRUE CHRISTIANS HAVE A JOB TO DO} Well you got that right! True Christians must get back to first century christianity or everyone is going straight to hell. no one in hear truly fears God becouse if they did the would get back to basics.

[friend]

Called...I hear what you are saying. However, I believe that we are saved by God's grace, not by right belief. The Gnostics believe that salvation was by right belief.

Having said that, to return to the practice and beliefs is a noble task. It's hard to discern what the first Christians held as True because we have years and years of Constantinian Christianity clouding history.

The early Christians held that Jesus was the only Word of God. If we keep our eyes on Jesus and are open to hearing His voice, then we're in a fairly good place.

But I LOVE what you said about being able to admit we might be wrong. The passage of Scripture that I've tried remember is, "we see through a glass darkly" and "we prophesy in part..." I've got to tell you that I've been wrong about many things in my life, including my understanding about God and God's work.

The problem I have with the entire thread is the idea of "true" Christians. You are either a Christian or not. "True", for me, denotes an arrogance that I think contradicts the message of Jesus.

While Christians are divided into many groups by sect or denomination, we are united in the fact that we are followers of Jesus and that we believe that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. We can have all the right belief in the world yet if we have not love we have nothing.

I consider myself a Christian who fellowships in a Quaker setting. Self identifying as a Christian is first and foremost as I think it is for most Christians.

The awesome thing is that, in the end, we will not be held accountable on what we believe but what we do..."when you did it unto the least of these you did it unto Me."

So, while I disagree with Skooter and Ezekiel on this particular issue, I embrace them as brothers and/or sisters in Christ. They both self-identify as Jesus' followers and who am I to question that. Remember, Jesus said to let the wheat grow with the tares.

What I do believe is that Jesus said He would send His Spirit to lead us unto all Truth. The only thing I can encourage my fellow believers to do is to be open to hearing the "Still Small Voice." And I REALLY appreaciate it when folks remind me of the same.

Hope you day goes well and that you continue to have such a burning desire to be all that God has called you to be.

God's peace my friend!

[called]

Thank you Friend
I can see your point and in some ways I agree with you but please ask yourself this and be completely honest ok,
If we are true followers of Christ and we all believe that Christ is the living {WORD} of God that became flesh and dwelt among us, and to this point there is no argument, wouldn’t it be the right thing to do as faithful Christians to follow only what is written in that book called the Bible and practice it ourselves, over our personal beliefs, ask yourself this ok! Just how was each and every NT convert Baptized in the NT Canon, according to just what is written in that book called the Bible and without putting our personal beliefs in it, Was it Acts 2:38 in the name of the Lord or Matthew 28:19 in the Name of the father of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? Just what did the Apostle Paul teach about a women’s Hair or a woman’s in 1 Cor, and her place in the Church and in the home? Did they have church buildings with pagan steeples on then, or did they meet in each others houses, did the Apostles collect Tithes from the people in the first century? Were unrepented openly active gays and lesbians allowed to become church members or be ordained as ministers, and the list goes on and on but be honest here and ask yourself are we true followers of Christ or are we just following of the religion of this world???

[called]

Thank you for your kindness Friend and I pray you have a blessed day to.

Hi Bob
Id like to ask you a very simple question ok, and please keep it very very simple ok! Just how was each and every NT Convert Baptized in the 27 Books of our NT Canon, Please do not include writings of the Catholic church fathers or your personal beliefs ok, just simply answer just how everyone was water baptized in the NT scriptures without adding anything whatsoever to it ok,

Thanks and God Bless you Brother

Johnny

[pro610]

Friend,
You said...

""It's hard to discern what the first Christians held as True because we have years and years of Constantinian Christianity clouding history.""

I,m amazed just how many Christians buy into this lie!

Constantine,s only influence on Christianity was to make it legal.Thus allowing the council of Nicea to take place-which by the way correctly labeled Constantine a heretic because Constantine was pagan Arian Baptised by an Arian Bishop.
Constantine did NOT even believe the Divinity of Christ.He chose to lead a pagan lifestyle and had NO influence on the Church.

Here is something to help you
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm

The fact is that all of the Early Christians believed and practiced things such as confession,Veneration of Mary,Infant Baptism,Veneration and intercessory Prayers of Saints etc..
They did all this Way before Costantine was ever born


Here are a few examples

Early Christians taught Mary is our Powerful Intercessor

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).

Intercessory Power and Veneration of the Saints
Note that Saint Polycarp was a DIRECT DISCIPLE of the Apostle Saint John

"[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps." Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).

The Early Christians on the Practice of Oral Confession

Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience." Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).


"Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop." Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

I can give tons of examples on many things the first Christians believed.

[friend]

Called wrote: "wouldn’t it be the right thing to do as faithful Christians to follow only what is written in that book called the Bible and practice it ourselves, over our personal beliefs, ask yourself this ok!" Yes, of course, but there are a myriad of interpretations and even seeming contradictions. We have a choice to humbly say that we believe XYZ but that we know that we are limited in our knowledge. On the issue of baptism, I see how you could interpret the passages you list as you do. There are others who interpret those differently however. Does that make them non-Christian because they disagree with your interpretation.

I know you might think that the passages are "clear" but none of us can take off our particular theological glasses when reading scripture. If that were the case, do you really think that Christians would fight even to death over interpretation?

You also ask, "Were unrepented openly active gays and lesbians allowed to become church members or be ordained as ministers" Historically, those who took up arms were not allowed to be members of the church nor were gluttons, gossips, etc. This opens a whole other can of worms. Why has the church singled out gay and lesbian people while turning a blind eye to the actions/sins of others? Are we so fixated on gay folks that we can't see the log in our own eye?

If I were gay or lesbian and I heard the hateful rhetoric coming from religious leaders, do you think for one minute I would be interested in coming to Jesus? Say what you will, and I can point you to MANY places on the net, gay folks are hated by fundamentalists and it shows.

What would happen if we befriended gay folks and loved them? Would they see Christ in us and want what we have? That would be great, yes? Instead, we use them for political means and to show how "godly" we are as compared to the rest of the "world".

Anyway, all that was not aimed at you. It is a particular soapbox of mine. I think many times we as Christians can be just downright hateful and I don't see that as a fruit of the Spirit. Do we really want to see change in people? If so, then we can point them to the One who changes us all. But we must do so in love. If we think for one minute that we are not capable of showing love, then we need to keep quite and let someone else that God has called to do that work.

Hey, there is no way I could show love to a child molester, but perhaps God has called someone else to show God's plan of reconciliation to them. I know that God has not called me to do that at all.

I also notice you talk about the NT canon. When was this canon set? Did the first Christians have the 66 books of the Bible we have today? We must be careful to worship the God of the Bible instead of the Bible itself.

Anyway, I've enjoyed our "conversation". I must tell you that I agree with so much you have to say, especially about the church buildings with steeples...we call them "steeple houses"....lol. BUT, I dare not judge the Christian by the house in which he or she worships. It is the object of that worship that concerns me.

Peace!

[friend]

Pro...let me guess...your Roman Catholic, right? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[called]

I've enjoyed our "conversation also Thanks, please pray for me and my family back home in the Philippines and ill be praying for you and yours ok Brother/Sister.

God Bless you and yours

johnny

[friend]

The Philippines? Awesome! You bet my prayers will be with you.

[skooter942000]

From Friend

How do you feel inside yourself about these passages? Sad, happy, compassion? What?

I'd like to see a few passages quoted on grace and God's love. They are in the scriptures too, yes?
----------------8< -- cut ---------------------


1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts:
and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

|
|
V

1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether
[there be] prophecies, they shall fail;
whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease;
whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.



|
|
V


1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a
child, I understood as a child, I thought as
a child: but when I became a man, I put away
childish things.


1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass,
darkly; but then face to face: now I know in
part; but then shall I know even as also I am
known.


1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope,
charity, these three; but the greatest of
these [is] charity.



- Charity is LOVE

26. agape ag-ah'-pay from 25;
love, i.e. affection or benevolence;
specially (plural) a love-feast:
--(feast of) charity(-ably), dear, love.

--------------
----------------------
-----------------------------------

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment
in the law?


Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love
the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with
all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.


Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Mat 22:40 On these two commandments
hang all the law and the prophets.





Doulos Don

[friend]

Ah, some of my favorite verses, Don! Beautiful!

[pro610]

Friend,you said...
"...let me guess...your Roman Catholic, right?"

I,m Catholic, I was a Methodist for over 20 years before returning back to the Catholic Church

BTW,"Roman Catholic" is actually the Diocese of Rome.

Here is a little history for you from
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm

Excerpt
The term Roman Catholic is not used by the Church herself; it is a relatively modern term, and one, moreover, that is confined largely to the English language. The English-speaking bishops at the First Vatican Council in 1870, in fact, conducted a vigorous and successful campaign to insure that the term Roman Catholic was nowhere included in any of the Council's official documents about the Church herself, and the term was not included.

Similarly, nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. Pope Paul VI signed all the documents of the Second Vatican Council as "I, Paul. Bishop of the Catholic Church." Simply that -- Catholic Church.

The term "catholic" simply means "universal," and when employing it in those early days, St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Polycarp of Smyrna were referring to the Church that was already "everywhere," as distinguished from whatever sects, schisms or splinter groups might have grown up here and there, in opposition to the Catholic Church.

Here is a writing from Saint Ignatius and the martyrdom of Polycarp Polycarp who were both Disciple,s of the Apostle Saint John

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110)

"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

I wish you a Blessed Day

[friend]

So Pro, in your opinion, can there be salvation outside of the (Roman) Catholic Church. By the way, I use (Roman) to denote those under the authority of the Pope. Many of my Lutheran family members consider themselves "Catholic" as in Evangelical Catholic.

It's interesting that they too use much of the history you've given us to show how the Lutheran Church is the true church.

[plow_deep]

Ezekiel.

You asked,
<font color="0000ff">"If an evil man(men) were to invade your house and try to kill you, or "hurt" your family, would you just let them?"</font>

No.

I will always defend family and friends to the best of my abilities and hope I dont take a life in the process. I will even jump in to defend total strangers at times, especially when they are elderly or female or (sometimes depending on the circumstance) anyone being beat down by a group.

The more I read the gospels, the less I fear losing my own life. I think Stephen in the book of Acts is an awesome example of a follower of Christ.

There was a time in my life if I had assumed a person had even looked at me wrong I would've made a "pre-emptive" physical attack on them.

I much more at peace these days and grow more so with study.

I think it takes more courage to be a pacifist then it does to not be one.

I think Friend is a very courageous person for the stance he takes.

Maybe I'll attain that level of faith someday.

Peace

[pro610]

Friend,
"So Pro, in your opinion, can there be salvation outside of the (Roman) Catholic Church."

I have addressed this many times here on factnet and the church recognizes the invincibly ignorant and those who have been mislead by no fault of their own

Here is a repost from my posts #806 an #807
Part 1 of 2
The Catholic Church says that most protestant denominations are attached to her thru valid baptism and such.
We call them our separated brothers and understand that many of them have been mislead ignorantly by false teachers from becoming aware of the truth that Christ established the Catholic Church.
An example of the false teachers that mislead many would be Jack Chick .

The Church even goes further than just the Protestants and recognizes that those who love abide in Christ ,even if they have never heard of Jesus.

from the Catechism #1260
“Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved"


Here is an example of the this...
The Gospel doesn't say that a person who never knew Jesus will be rejected. Christ refers to those who disbelieve Him, such as the Pharisees - when He speaks in John 3, for example. In Romans 2, Paul says that ALL men, even the Gentiles, have a law written on their heart. The Catechism details the "natural law" pretty well. Basically, God has written onto our hearts the Law of Love. Even a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ can "know" this law. If a person loves, He abides in Christ. 1 John makes that statement several times. We know that we can do nothing good without Christ abiding within us. Thus, when a person who has never heard of Christ can listen to that divine natural law printed inside of us - and the Spirit blows where He will. Thus, a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ CAN be saved - because they are not specifically rejecting Him - AND they ARE following His Law of Love - which is the summary of the Commandments, says James. The Catechism also refers to some Muslims - they may not have heard the truth of the Gospel, so they cannot reject it. They have been presented a scare crow by their mullahs, so they are considered invincibly ignorant (as the Catechism calls them and other such people). A person will not go to hell if he is invincibly ignorant and loves others. Many Muslims don't know Jesus Christ and the Gospel. They haven't been presented it. So how can they reject it? They only reject a scare crow, much like anti-Catholics who don't know Catholicism.

[pro610]

Part #2 Vatican Document
Here is more...
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Certainly, the various religious traditions contain and offer religious elements which come from God,85 and which are part of what “the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures, and religions”.86 Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God.87 One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation

[pro610]

Friend,
The problem with most people who bash the Church is usually twofold,they either are unaware of Christian History or they judge the Church based on certain INDIVIDUALS who did some awful and horrific things.These INDIVIDUALS were NOT following the teaching of the Church
The fact is that the Church,s teachings on Faith and Morals and protection of human life from conception to natural death have remained the same for over 2000 years.

Here are some examples of what the Church teaches.
I doubt you will find fault with any of the following-they were clearly teachings guided by the Holy Spirit

Respect for Human Life
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

Respect for the Dignity of Persons
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P80.HTM

The Love of Husband and Wife
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P86.HTM

Offenses Against the Dignity of Marriage
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P87.HTM

Love For the Poor
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8F.HTM


If there is anything you would like to ask me regarding Christian history and what the Catholic Church really teaches I will be happy to TRY and answer them.

I,m going to be very busy for most of the week-so bare with me

I wish you and your family a peaceful Blessed evening!

[pro610]

Plow
you said...

""There was a time in my life if I had assumed a person had even looked at me wrong I would've made a "pre-emptive" physical attack on them.""

Reminds me of my old self also.
I was a huge musclebound idiot,only God knocked me down and it is ONLY by HIS Grace that I don,t even know that old me anymore.

Its been awhile since we conversed.
I hope all is well with you and your Family?

I wish you a Blessed evening!

[rachelengland]

You know pro10 one thing friend spoke about previously was not only can we harm others with our physical being but with our tongue and the words we say to other people..sometimes those things can really kill a persons soul and destroy-their self esteem and well being. Many a war has been started over words. I have appreciated reading the things you have written here as well. R

[friend]

Pro, one of my best friends is a (Roman) Catholic. We have some amazing dialogue...and some amazing disagreements as well http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif. I respect your beliefs but don't necessarily agree with everything that you write (thank goodness...it frightens me when I agree 100% with someone). History, like the Bible, is a matter of individual interpretation.

Having said that, there can be no better example of living the Sermon on the Mount than Dorthy Day and the Catholic Worker movement. I have witnessed first hand their work among the poor and oppressed here in North Carolina. Amazing folks!

God's peace!

[pro610]

Friend ,
"Pro, one of my best friends is a (Roman) Catholic. We have some amazing dialogue...and some amazing disagreements as well . I respect your beliefs but don't necessarily agree with everything that you write (thank goodness...it frightens me when I agree 100% with someone). History, like the Bible, is a matter of individual interpretation. "

I wish more of us were able to part in such manner, rather than continuing on and on and on.

We are Brothers and Sisters in Christ-This is what really matters.

I wish you a Blessed Day!

[plow_deep]

Pro610,

I'm doin fine, thanks! I hope all is well with you and yours also.
Once again I have to agree with Friend.

When it comes to charity, the Catholics do a wondeful job... at least thats what I've seen in my area.

I've done bit of helping homeless with a group of ABATE bikers in my area over the years. Thats where I've run across Catholics.

Actually there are many homeless people that shun Christian aid because so many Christian groups want to preach at them while their helping them. Because of this there's a lot of homeless that avoid Homeless Shelters like the plague.

For all the homeless that flock to the shelters during winter...there is 10 times as many that would rather go cold and hungry rather then have someone preach at them and make them feel guilty for being without and in need of help.

The Catholic groups dont do the routine of:

"While I got ya cornered, let preach at you and tell you where you going wrong, make you feel guilty for your circumstances, make you pray, and THEN I'll give you a little help."

Catholics just plain give honest to goodness charity with "no strings attached". I've always admired that and its been a rare thing thing to see other Christian groups with that attitude.

While building shacks with ABATE, We've watched many a homeless person pick up their stuff and walk away into the woods to get away from a well-intentioned Christian group thats stopped by and tried to help them. They always come back outta of the woods when the group has left. We used to roll with laughter. I've seen it happen dozens of times.

I've never seen it happen with a Catholic group.

Going to a homeless camp with the intent of preaching the Word of God has the same effect as would a group from AA walking into a bar and preaching about the harmfulness of alcohol. It just doesnt work.

It's not my intent to offend any group. I just wanted to share this. The Catholic's have my utmost respect when it comes to the effectiveness I've seen them have when working with homeless folks.

Peace

[friend]

Thanks for what you write, Plow. I second what you wrote.

I, too, have seen this happen with homeless folks when Christian organizations attempt to help them out. Of course, I realize that by "preaching" to the homeless, folks do not intend ill will. However, the "preaching" is more effective if we do so by our lives. The same goes for working with people with HIV/AIDS.

What can work is becoming a friend to those in need. At some point your faith will come up and that will be the opportunity to share. And believe me...it WILL come up.

And that gets us back to the title of this forum section..."True Christians Will Have a Job to Do". Indeed, "true" Christians must follow the example of Jesus and help the poor. It really doesn't matter why the person is poor, we are commanded to help.

There has never been a time that I have volunteered with the homeless or people with HIV/AIDS that I didn't feel like I benefited more than they did. It's amazing what people who are hurting can teach us.

I think Francis said, "Preach the Gospel always. If you have to, use words."

God's peace ya'll!

[pro610]

Plow and Friend
Thanks for you posts .

I must tell you though ,that there are many Catholics who don,t represent the faith well. There are also many ,many loving Protestants who put lukewarm Catholic,s to shame.

Christianity is about total submission of oneself to the will of God,this is the only way that our Love can become selfless and thus perfect because we are following the law of love written in our hearts as stated in 1 John.

People often make the mistake by saying "works" mean nothing and NOT understanding the difference between selfish works and works that are Christ working in us.
They actually will use "works mean nothing" as an excuse to walk by the poor person in need and do nothing to help them.
WE must love others and Christ not because we trying to get God to owe us a wage, but because our will is coming into line with God's will.
I do not believe that man is saved by HIS OWN goodness, but by God moving within us the desire to be pleasing to God. Our inner motivations are ultimately what is important on whether an action is meritorious or not.
If we expect a payment for any works, or obligate God to grant salvation, or other egotistical manners, this work is worthless in making us righteous in God's eyes. However, if we are humble, and obey the SAME commandments with the inner motivation of love (placed there by God), this same exact deed IS PLEASING TO GOD! We become more like Christ.Thus we are being transformed by the Holy Spirit gradually. Thus, the same action can be worthless OR can be of the highest worth.

It is this example of Love that draws others to Christ,NOT our denominational affiliation.

It is this Love that can unite us in making the world a better place despite our denominational differences.

I wish you both a Blessed day!

[skooter942000]

John 3:16-17 is CLEAR.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world; but that the world through him
.....might be saved.



no group of 'men' , (can say different).
- No matter what 'they' may CLAIM.


- *IF ONE TRULY BELIEVES*.
- (That's "THAT")!!!

From that point on, (we JUDGE OURSELVES),
by our WORKS!!!


In Revelation 2 and 3 ,
There are 7 CHURCHES Mentioned.


CHRIST is in the MIDST of them "ALL".





QUIZ:


How many are left STANDING, WITH HIM,
- (In Revelation 11)?



The BODY of CHRIST , (Is HIS CHURCH).

- Limiting "HIS SAVING GRACE",
(.....is ignorance at its worst).



Don <*))><

(Message edited by skooter942000 on March 30, 2007)