What the Roman church does not want you to know baptism %3d regeneration

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

What the Roman Church does not want you to know about salvation.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV).

Would you say these people are saved or lost according to your religion’s salvic plan? Can you show scriptural support for your claim? Let us look for a moment.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV).

Did these people follow Acts 2:38?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38 (KJV).

The Bible says these people believed and were ‘baptized’ in ‘Jesusnameonly’.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV).

“For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 8:16 (KJV).

Were these people saved or lost? Can we say factually with scripture one way or the other?

Can we say these people followed the Roman Road plan of salvation?

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Romans 10:9 (KJV).

Did these people follow the Roman Road?

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV).

Were these people saved or lost? Can we say factually with scripture one way or the other?

Unlike Mr. Pro610 and Mr. Called, I refuse to paraphrase scripture. The King James Version of the Bible is written on the eighth grade level. If you have the ability to get on the internet and read these message boards, you can read and understand the KJV period. I implore you to read every text in context without a pretext.

My favorite quote from John Calvin speaks volumes on the subject.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

“Such veneration,” John Calvin said, “we ought indeed to entertain for the Word of God, that we ought not to pervert it in the least degree by varying expositions; for its majesty is diminished, I know not how much, especially when not expounded with great discretion and with great sobriety. And if it be deemed a great wickedness to contaminate any thing that is dedicated to God, he surely cannot be endured, who, with impure, or even with unprepared hands, will handle that very thing, which of all things is the most sacred on earth. It is therefore an audacity, closely allied to a sacrilege, rashly to turn Scripture in any way we please, and to indulge our fancies as in sport; which has been done by many in former times” (Institues of the Christian Religion, English Translation, Grand Rapids, 1947, p. 27).

Let us look at the first of many verses.

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5 (KJV)

Mr. Pro610 and Mr. Called are real quick to quote this verse, but refuse to tell you what Jesus Christ really said. I do not need to paraphrase as those caught sucker to baptism = regeneration do.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” John 3:3 – 8 (KJV)

“Except a man be born of (flesh)water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the (water)flesh is (water)flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” I, personally, don’t care wether you believe “water” to be water baptism or water of natural childbirth. Jesus Christ said “that which is flesh is flesh.” End of conversation.

Were these people born of the spirit?

“Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)” Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

They had not been born of the spirit.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in <u>spirit</u> and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in <u>spirit</u> and in truth." John 4:23,24 (KJV).

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the <u>Holy Ghost</u>:
(For as yet <u>he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

Could this people worship in the spirit? No. No need to paraphrase.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the <u>Spirit of God dwell in you</u>. Now if any <u>man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his</u>." Romans 8:9 (KJV)

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that <u>they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15, 16 (KJV)

Did these people have the Spirit of Christ? no, no need to paraphrase here either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"For as many as are <u>led by the Spirit of God</u>, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14 (KJV)

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that <u>they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

Were these people led by the Spirit of God? No, no need to paraphrase here either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the <u>Spirit of adoption</u>, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." Romans 8:15 (KJV)

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that <u>they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

Could these people cry "ABBA" Father? No, no need to paraphrase here either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"The <u>Spirit itself beareth witness</u> with our spirit, that we are the children of God." Romans 8:16 (KJV)

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that <u>they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

Did the Spirit bear witness with the spirit of these people? No, no need to paraphrase here either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and <u>given the earnest of the Spirit</u> in our hearts." 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 (KJV)

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that <u>they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

Did these people have the earnest of the Spirit? No, no need to paraphrase here either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the <u>earnest of the Spirit</u>." 2 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that <u>they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

Did these people have the earnest of the Spirit? No, no need to paraphrase here either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, <u>ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise</u>, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13,14 (KJV)

"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that <u>they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them</u>: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV)

Were these people sealed with the Spirit? No, no need to paraphrase here either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

What is the difference in Christianity and those (The Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, The Adventist Movement, The Church of God, pentecostalism, and the Roman Church) caught up in the Roman doctrine of baptism = regeneration? Christianity has no need to paraphrase to force God's Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages to fit God's doctrine.

These people obeyed Acts 2:38 and were lost. Not because I said so, but because God said so.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Don't stop here, compare Acts 19:1, Matthew 7:21 and Matthew 25. You will find they all followed Acts 2:38 but were lost.

[pro610]

Listen,Dear Brother/Sister.
I don,t run around making predictions on who was or was not saved,I also understand that Holy Spirit blows where he wills.

Christianity is bigger then the Bible and that the Bible is the story of GOD's Salvation History with mankind filled with typology and prefigurements. Some say the Old Testament is immaterial now that we are in the New Covenant. This could not be further from the truth, as the Old Testament has hidden within it the New Testament.

I see you decided to bring up Calvin

John Calvin was the proud intellectual rich man who ordered the murder of Michael Servetus who also said this.....
"There are babies a span long in hell"

John Calvin bought two ancient heresies. He bought the heresy of Pelagianism and he bought the heresy of Manichaeism, which is a strange combination. Original Pelagianism claimed you don’t need grace. All you need is your own, your own will to be saved. This is not to say Manichaeism you don’t need your own will, all you need is God’s grace. Calvin in his genius managed to combine those two that seem to be contrary, not to say contradictory heresies. For John Calvin, many say are Luther’s ideas, for John Calvin in the last analysis who will be saved – those whom God has predestined for salvation. Would anybody else be saved? No. And therefore, basic to John Calvin, is the absolute denial of man’s free will.

I have too many things to do to debate this.

I wish you well in your search for the truth!

[pro610]

The ap church
The strangest thing about Calvin is the he thought of himself as a follower of Saint Augustine,he uses Augustine to support his view of predestination , but when it comes to other things such as regeneration and the true Presence in the Eucharist he abandons Augustine and sides with his own pride and belief.

Here is what Augustine writes about Baptism..

"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, `Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents' or `by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,' but, `Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.' The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Quoting: "John Calvin was the proud intellectual rich man who ordered the murder of Michael Servetus who also said this....."
End quote.

Ignorance is bliss. If your statement is true, you should be quiet proud. The Roman Church ordered Michael Servetus burned at the stake for heresy. For that matter, The Church of England ordered his death also. But alas, Calvin reclused himself from the trial, something you should have done.

Quoting: "I don,t run around making predictions on who was or was not saved,I also understand that Holy Spirit blows where he wills."
End quote.

Neither do I. I quoted the Word of God word for word, something you can not do.

[pro610]

The AP Church said....
"Calvin reclused himself from the trial, something you should have done."

According to Calvin we don,t have a free will ,so it would have to be God who reclused Calvin because we are all just puppets of God ,so says John Calvin.

The problem with that is how do we submit ourselves to Christ without a clear act of exercising our Free Will?
The whole idea was never taught and it boggles my mind that people believe it.

Calvin Said this about Seretus....
"I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated"

But of course since Calvin thinks he had NO free will he can thus blame God for saying this.
Do you see how silly this is?



BTW, the Catholic Church Nor the Church of England can Kill anyone.

It is the sinful people who kill.
The sinful people who don,t follow what the dogmatic teaching of the Church

I wish you a Blessed day!

PS
Its Holy week and I,m not going to spend time on discussion boards this week.
I wish everyone else would do the same!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Quoting: "BTW, the Roman Church Nor the Church of England can Kill anyone."
End quote.

So, are you saying your religion did not murder millions doing the Inquisition?

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

TATM: So, are you saying your religion did not murder millions doing the Inquisition?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Well, "millions" would be a startling overestimation. A liberal death count of the Spanish Inquisition would be about 5 to 10 thousand. See here (http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070312080833AA75Xh7). For more info on the Inquisition, see http://www.tektonics.org/qt/spaninq.html. Don't be afraid to educate yourself.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

By your own lack of knowledge, you underestimated the Inquistion. Did you count the thousands murdered in North American? South America? or Did you just count those most convenient?

By the by, the Inquistion started in the fourteenth century and went through the nineteenth century. It was carried out throughout the world, not just Spain.

[mcmstaff78]

ATM, what are defining as the "Inquisition"? Not even Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Death_tolls) would agree with your count. Let the readers of this thread view the references and decide who's displaying a "lack of knowledge".

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I am sorry, my friend. You seem to misunderstand me. Exactly what does your question have to do with baptism = regeneration? Or the Bible, for that matter?

To begin with, Wikipedia is a write your own tall-tail. Had you bothered to read the article, it claims the Inquistion began in 1490. The Inquistion began a full century earlier in England.

You may set the number according to your good pleasure. It has no bearing on the lies the Roman Church tells.

[mcmstaff78]

Well, my point about Wikipedia is that it is usually written by anti-Christians and even there it doesn't make the exagerated claims for a death toll.

And while there may have been "Inquisitions" earlier, the Spanish Inquisition was authorized by Pope Sixtus IV in 1478. I would be nice, again, to know to what you are specifically referring.

Anytime you'd actually like to cite your sources, please feel free. You talk in ambiguities and generalities. Cite the sources.

And you were the one who brought up the Inquisition and the death toll, I was simply responding to your inaccuracy. If you didn't want to hijack your own thread, maybe you shouldn't have brought up irrelevancies.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on April 04, 2007)