OUT OF CHURCH CHRISTIANS [Archive]

jbkrems

01-08-2007, 11:11 PM

Bob,

I do not think it is right for Christians to not be a part of and plugged into a local church. It says in Hebrews 10:24-25, "Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

This passage says we need to go to church, and we need to become planted in the house of God, and get involved there.

I believe that the local church is God's primary instrument of discipleship today, and we are all exhorted in the Scriptures to become disciples of Christ. If you're not in a local church, then you are short-circuiting God's plan and destiny for your life.

I don't know why many Christians fail to get involved in church. I think a lot of people get hurt or offended, and then because they do not get delivered from that, they keep on getting hurt and offended in churches, and never find a place where they can truly serve God. This is not healthy, and this is not biblical. We need to develop a tough skin, and learn not to be offended, and stay plugged in to where God has called us to be and to serve. Hope that helps.

bob777

01-08-2007, 11:43 PM

We are assembled anytime we fellowship with one another...

This is from Matthew Henry's Commentary:
Hebrews 10:19-25
Verse 19-25 - The apostle having closed the first part of the epistle, the doctrine is applied to practical purposes. As believers had an open way to the presence of God, it became them to use this privilege. The way and means by which Christians enjoy such privileges, is by the blood of Jesus, by the merit of that blood which he offered up as an atoning sacrifice. The agreement of infinite holiness with pardoning mercy, was not clearly understood till the human nature of Christ, the Son of God, was wounded and bruised for our sins. Our way to heaven is by a crucified Saviour; his death is to us the way of life, and to those who believe this, he will be precious. They must draw near to God; it would be contempt of Christ, still to keep at a distance. Their bodies were to be washed with pure water, alluding to the cleansings directed under the law: thus the use of water in baptism, was to remind Christians that their conduct should be pure and holy. While they derived comfort and grace from their reconciled Father to their own souls, they would adorn the doctrine of God their Saviour in all things. Believers are to consider how they can be of service to each other, especially stirring up each other to the more vigorous and abundant exercise of love, and the practice of good works. The communion of saints is a great help and privilege, and a means of stedfastness and perseverance. We should observe the coming of times of trial, and be thereby quickened to greater diligence. There is a trying day coming on all men, the day of our death.

http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/henry/H58C010.htm#26-31

bear

01-08-2007, 11:45 PM

bob said:

"Is the true church being raised up outside of the four walls to help bring in the endtime harvest??????"

What? The true church?

Out of curch Christianity is really born out of rebeliion. The church is built on Christ.

One needs to find a church where they are doing God's work. To say that there is not any is untrue.

If an idividual can not find a church that pleases them, then the problem is not the church's.

bob777

01-08-2007, 11:46 PM

I ENCOURAGE YOU TO READ THE ENTIRE COMMENTARY IN HEBREWS CHAPTER 10

http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/henry/H58C010.htm#26-31

bear

01-09-2007, 01:07 AM

I have; what are trying to point out?

jbkrems

01-09-2007, 06:49 AM

Bob,

I agree with bear. There is no such thing as a "lone ranger" Christian, or people outside the local church.

bob777

01-09-2007, 07:15 AM

I am not a lone ranger!... I am in fellowship with The Holy Spirit and other Christians on a daily basis...

I encourage you to read more about Jesus' Ministry while on earth...

God bless you...

nina_s

01-09-2007, 07:50 AM

I am puzzled---before Jesus comes back "the love of many will grow cold" and "people will seek after those who tickle their ears with what they want to hear" instead of the Truth of Jesus Christ!

Man (and woman) want(s) to control everything and "work" the way to Heaven---instead of truly listening to the still, small voice of the Holy Spirit and following Him. Man seeks after leaders---mere men---who have a "method"---a way to "save the masses." From such misguided egotism comes the likes of Cesar Castellanos' G12---Government of 12 (the old shepherding movement again) and other pyramid schemes to grow big churches and manipulate the masses to Jesus Christ.

Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets want you to believe that we are living in a special time---they fill their literature with emotionally charged words---but it's all the same: THE EMPHASIS IS ON "ME" AND WHAT "I AM DOING" FOR GOD!!!!! Wrong emphasis!!! The emphasis should be on the character and quality of God's Nature, and what HE desires of us, not what we want to do FOR Him, or what we can GET from Him.

IMHO THAT is what is wrong with today's churches! There are control freaks and those who want to "work a program." In my friend's church (a G12 church) he is not allowed to date; has severed family ties and friendships because we're not spiritual enough; and has joined an elite controlled leadership where all his time is spent in this church system, he no longer has time for family, hobbies, and where his personality has changed. And yet this group claims success at winning souls to the Lord and being so "spiritual."

I'll take a simple "closer walk with Thee, Oh Lord" any day!

Nina

jbkrems

01-09-2007, 09:22 AM

Bob,

I've read all 4 of the Gospels (the account of Jesus' ministry). I've read the Book of Acts. I've read these portions of the Scripture probably 4 times a year for the past 3 years of my life, and at least once a year for 1-2 years before that. I am well aware of Jesus' ministry.

One thing that Jesus had in his ministry were disciples. Bob, who is discipling you? Who is holding you accountable on a regular basis? And who are YOU discipling and holding accountable?

I'd like you to respond to those questions.

Thank you.

party_animal

01-09-2007, 10:09 AM

Hey Bob this jbkrems is right bro, listen when was 17 years old i was in the river of death (the meikcong delta) trying to survive unfreindly fire their was a dude about my age than that said hey listen do you have a local church at home ... i said hell no he said well it starts right here on the boat. well bob i got saved their within a half hour this man was killed took a round in the back of his head, yes i cryed screamed lord why did you do this to this good man, well he never let me know until i was done when i got back to the USA jesus showed me a local church and i have never left. i belong to the biker group CRHISTS DISEPLES and proud of it. later Bob

arron

01-09-2007, 04:56 PM

every one shpuld have a local assembly to go to and go there the bible teachces us .. not to fosake the assembling of our selves together as the manner of some is... so we should ahve a place set aside where we and others of like faith go to worship GOD

bear

01-10-2007, 01:26 AM

Bob said:

"I am not a lone ranger!... I am in fellowship with The Holy Spirit and other Christians on a daily basis..."

The Apostles mission was to reach people. The Apostle Paul's missionary journey's were to eslablish church's. That is correct; Church's.

You may have fellowship, but the biblical model was a church. Do you realize that the men that were with Jesus gave overshight to the church's for many years? These men were "with" Jesus.

What is your angle?

While on earth, Jesus never spoke out againt going to the Synag. It was his custom to do so.
______________________________________________

Nina_S said:

"Man seeks after leaders---mere men---who have a "method"---a way to "save the masses.""

1. Yes, God gives us "leaders". Without leaders, we are in the wilderness. It is not enough to say "Jesus is the only leader that I need". Not only is that statement ignorat of scripture, it is born out of rebellion.

2. There is no one way to "do" church. In 1 Corinrhians we read that there are, to paraphrase: "different forms of administration" yet we are all the body of Christ.

3. Some methods work, others do not. However, what works in Dallas may not work in Detroit. People are different, and different methods must be applied. The "method" of ministry must change with different cultures and generations. The "message" must stay the same, but explained in a way that people today can apply it to their lives.

******Note: If people tried to reach us with the methods used in the third century, it would not work. The message is the same, but the method would not work. who are we trying to reach? Christians? NO!!!! The unchurched!

Nina also stated:

"IMHO THAT is what is wrong with today's churches!"

No, that it what is wrong with a handful of church's.

That statement above is not only cliche', but, and pardon the use of this word, "STUPID".

I love it when shallow people use that statement. It has been my epierience that those who say this would fall flat on their face if they ever tried to organize a church.

According to Revalation 3, there are "Going" to be church's that do not please God. But as you read this chapter, notice that the church of Philadelphia was an " organized church", not a group of disgruntled people who had formed.

fullofquestions

01-10-2007, 06:30 AM

Find a local church. Everybody needs roots.

nina_s

01-10-2007, 08:21 AM

Dear Bear,

Well, that is very unloving to call me "in rebellion", "shallow" and "stupid!" Who died and made you Judge?!

OF COURSE, I am not talking about ALL churches---we are, after all, discussing religious cults and non-mainstream churches DEPENDANT ON MEN LEADING IN THEIR FLESH!

Of course we need leaders who are Spirit-led. As with the Bereans we are to test all things according to Scripture. I am indeed talking about people in the flesh declaring that they are prophets, or that "God WILL heal through ME at 7 p.m. tonight" and so on.

No, it is not a handful of churches---the G12 network is huge; there's the Toronto "Holy Laughter" movement; there are some Vineyards and Canadian Vineyards who've declared that God is showering people with gold dust and fragrances; there's Bill Johnson writing in his book that God was dropping angel feathers on church staff--I can continue, but I won't.

Man seeks after what pleases his ego, if left to his own devices---that is why we need God's leading!

Say what you will, but I have been a Christian for 37 years and have not seen the bizarre, fleshy, cultishness in the church until the last few years!

Blessings to you all!

Nina

bob777

01-10-2007, 05:11 PM

I JUST RECEIVED THIS...A LITTLE HUMOR, BUT SO TRUE...

What would the modern church do to Jesus if He were on the earth today?:

- They would tell Him to say a little prayer.

- They would invite Him to their church.

- They would tell Him to give ten percent of his money to the church, and rebuke Him for giving it (and more) to the poor.

- They would give Him self-help books to heal his "inner hurt."

- They would tell Him that He needed to get rich in order to receive God's blessings.

- They would tell Him that apostles and prophets don't exist anymore, and that most of the spiritual gifts aren't for today.

BUT being a Church greeter is a "spiritual gift."

- They would tell Him to go to seminary school to "perfect" His preaching gift.

- They would tell Him, with their actions, that it is OK to sin, as long as you either, (a) Hide it well enough, or (b) Use Scripture
to justify it.

- They would tell Him to stop playing with the children during the sermon.

- They would tell Him to stop preaching repentance, because
people don't like it.

- They would tell Him to preach messages with a "warm, upbeat"
message that make people feel good, so that more people
would come to His church and that He could pay His bills for
His church building.

- They would rebuke Him for saying that the church is people, and
not a building.

- They would tell Him to stop hanging out with 'sinners.'

- They would rebuke Him for making "communion" a meal.

- They would rebuke Him for calling several people in church
authority "hypocrites."

- They would tell Him to stop healing people, because that isn't for
today.

- They would kick Him out of the church for knocking down the
pews and pulpits.

- They would gossip about Him, and say that He was starting a "cult."

YES! - You have permission to post these emails
to friends or to other groups, etc.

bear

01-11-2007, 03:51 AM

Nina_s

I NEVER called you stupid or rebellious; I never made it personal. That is all you.

My apology for mot making that clear.

Also, thank you for your explanation. What you have posted make sense. I will say that to me, these church's are just a handful in the bigger picture. My comment was based on the easy-to-say "That is what is wrong with the church today". That comment is used all too often, and is really not applicable in my opinion.

hillariousharry

01-11-2007, 07:46 PM

Postings so far seem to indicate that belonging to a church fellowship is a "must", and that possibly one may miss out by not doing so(nothing wrong with that stance....I would agree that it is scriptural to connect...BUT!

More thought I think as to why many Xians either take a break or decide to not be involved at all.

As a Xian, who currently doesnt attend any fellowship regularly, it can be so easy to come out with scripture to fit( nothing wrong with that), yet fail to fully analyse logical explanations why some Xians dont attach themselves to a fellowship.

Problem is, is that it is easy to become so programmed to a spiritual point of view and not include adeqaute down to earth reasoning and flexibility of thought.

HH

bob777

01-19-2007, 10:46 PM

"THE WHEAT AND TARES"

http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/Booklets/id121.htm

bear

01-20-2007, 12:09 AM

bob,

the Wheat and Tares is NOT referencing people who are in church and those who are called out.

You will not find any reputable scholar who would side with that theology.

wyoming

01-20-2007, 06:55 PM

We need to define the church. The church is not a temple made with hands. It is ONE living organism consisting of all the Christians in the universe. It is not dependent upon article of incorporation or bylaws or a license from Caesar nor a Pope. The Holy Spirit guides us individually and collectively and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in unity with no conflict between them. If we are ONE with the Lord Jesus Christ, we will automatically be one with each other and this is all we need as required of us.

Our vanity is in trying to make things more complicated by formulating a systematic theology because we want everything to be finite. We seem to want to walk by sight than by faith. Many of us on FactNet, perhaps most of us, have allowed ourselves to be sucked into cults or some of these borderline groups. It takes a certain type of person to get sucked in. Thus, we are called suckers. I have noticed that when many come out of a group, they still hung on to the same doctrines, with such clouded mindsets. They still had the wrong concept of THE CHURCH.

Some of the rationale above, looks for a one size fits all. How can you conclude that everyone that comes out of man-made "churches" is motivated by rebellion? Could some be motivated by a desire for a closer walk with God when they saw the out-of-control corruption? True Christians desire fellowship with other Christians. This "Lone Ranger" concept is hypothetical for the purpose of debate and generating controversy. Many of the so-called churches today are pure entertainment and dumbed-down "Christianity". Who can deny that this is THE APOSTASY most certainly described in Bible prophesy for the END TIMES, if anyone reads their Bible anymore. At that time, the "churches" that you say one must choose and be affiliated with, will accept the ANTI-CHRIST.

So, at what point do you come out of these so-called "churches"?

Lest you be confused about me, I do fellowship at a very tiny community church with some very uncomplicated Christians who walk by faith. It took me years to find them, but I never stopped looking. Along the way, I still had fellowship with lots of Christians. If you didn't know better, you might have called me "The Lone Ranger" by your inability to read my heart.

Even as Christians, we still have to deal with our OLD MAN. Man is inclined to be pagan and there are still many witch-doctors running around -- even in the "churches".

wyoming

01-20-2007, 07:39 PM

.
My web site has the things I've just said, under this topic, as the main topic at my web site. http://www.ChurchGrowth.cc

bear

01-21-2007, 04:25 AM

Hello Wyoming,

You wrote:

"Some of the rationale above, looks for a one size fits all. How can you conclude that everyone that comes out of man-made "churches" is motivated by rebellion? Could some be motivated by a desire for a closer walk with God when they saw the out-of-control corruption?"

1. I do not believe that one size fits all, that is why I am confused. With so many choices, how can an individual not find a church, such as the one you have?

2. The rebellion comment is based on many cases which I have seen personally, while in ministry. I suppose that it is not fair for me to put everyone in that group, but the attitude that follows these people is really rebellion. If it were not, they would eventually find a fellowship that fits them.

3. Out of control corruption is a good reason...no, a great reason to leave! However, I again state that there are enough church's preaching the truth, that an individual can find one that fits them.

4. All church's are man made; God gives the calling and vision to a person, and they set out to fulfill that calling.

Paul started how many church's? He was a man, and by that standard, they were man made.

I get your point, but to often people fling terms like "Man Made" and "The traditions of Man" like mud. Every Christian person practices something that is a tradition of man. It is the bad traditions that need to be addressed.

wyoming

01-21-2007, 05:54 AM

Bear,

My lead off was to ask that we define THE CHURCH. There is only one church but many assemblies.

The real church is a spiritual body and all-inclusive. We are spirit and flesh. Which part of us belongs to the real church and which part of us belongs to the man-made institution?

Anything that is not Biblical precept is tradition by which we are divided. We have taken tradition and made doctrine out of it, and honest folk will see through it.

Paul didn't start churches. The church was started at Pentecost. Paul gathered "the called-out ones". We do see early sectarianism though, when some divided themselves as being of Paul or Apollos, for which they were rebuked. By the same standard, I think we should all be rebuked today. We do not have an open-door policy, or we give it lip service. We put a yoke on one another. Some of us acknowledge this more than others and we want to do what's right.

There is plenty of mud to go around.

--Alan.

hillariousharry

01-27-2007, 08:41 PM

Hi,

I'm chuckling away. I haven't belonged to a church for 10 years for health reasons ( was entrapped in fanaticism). But reading some of the postings, they do not inspire me to do any different. Quite content thanks.

There appears to be limited focus on graciousness of spirit in ones heart. Imbalance maybe.....too much thought on maintaining enthusiasm for getting people into the church (to be respected)....yet not enough attention on preparation of the heart, in order not to take "a bull in a china shop approach" ( i.e. enthusiasm channelled unwisely).

Interesting that some postings are rather personal and rude, whilst spouting the do s of scripture. Those posting, surely, have already lost respect and shot themselves in the foot.

Do I wish to go to a fellowship where there is evangelistic enthusiasm, yet to find that common respect and courtesy is missing? I dont. More edifying sometimes being at home with the family and walking the countryside admiring the beauties of creation.

Nina - in my view your postins are healthy and balanced and express a gracious tone.

Bear - in my view your postings indicate scriptural knowledge and lack a gracious tone.

My approach is to question postings and not to get at the poster.

Chuckles galores this weekend but keep them to a minimum tomorrow, lest they be mistaken for holy laughter.

HH

fullofquestions

01-27-2007, 08:57 PM

Lots of mud to go around.

bear

01-28-2007, 12:20 AM

Wyoming,

Thank you for your clarification; I will agree with you based on your last post.
_______________________________________

Hharry,

It is hard, as you are aware, to read tone into an internet post. My wording was strong on this issue, and I did not mean to give off an un-gracious tone.

pilgrim

01-28-2007, 12:35 AM

bob777,

I am praying to meet more out of church christians to have fellowship with them.

Blessing
Pilgrim

hillariousharry

01-28-2007, 12:38 AM

Well, that is very unloving to call me "in rebellion", "shallow" and "stupid!" Who died and made you Judge?!

These words were quoted by Nina. The posting you made previous to her response was not in her view and mine, to mistake the tone of it. Your wording was made quite clear.....rude and condescending.(not evidence of scriptural fruit ).

Christ is my only leader is right for me. Too many leaders seem limited in communication skills, one of them which is to respect others views and use common courtesy. Also to make sure that when they own what they regard is a vision from God is not mere words.....the G12 in my view is an example, whereby I would say that no vision from God was ever there. Purely mans plans and then asking God to bless them. With a chuckle, I would say that God hasn't made a very good job of it; or rather God wasn't given any room, because the leaders were perhaps too taken up with their own ego in trying to entrap believers and non believers into what I would think of as potential cult like practices.

So the big question is:

Where Xians talk about Vision, winning souls, being led by the Holy Spirit etc, are they talking mere words.....could be....cos often the basics of respect for others is missing (something which one doesnt have to be a Xian in order to show).

Many of my non Xian friends have qualities which I do not see in some Xians...their fellowship is often sweeter than that found in churches.

Blessings and dont forget its the sabbath tomorrow. A few chuckles in the pews permitted, but could be mistaken for one either laughing at the leader or holy laughter.

HH

hillariousharry

01-28-2007, 12:40 AM

Hi Pilgrim...there's one here. lol

delwin@btinternet.com

Blessings

HH (John)

bear

01-28-2007, 02:21 AM

Harry,(John)

After a review of my post, I will concede and apologize. Nina, and all others, I apologize.

I could have worded that differently to get the same point across.

I apologize for the wording; the harshness and unkindness. I still believe that God has given us leaders; that is 100% biblical.

People get hurt by leaders, yes, and it is to the shame of that leader. My years in ministry have shown me some very disturbing traits in leaders that really disqualify them from their postition. I have also been hurt by leaders above me.

I have seen many leave the church out of a rebellious attitude. 99% of the cases that I could mention are of this sort. However, I know that there are people who leave, without seeing other options, and they need a time a healing and refreshing from the Lord. I was wrong for insinuating that all who leave church are rebellious.

If I have been out of line in anyone's opinion, I genuinely ask for your forgiveness.

hillariousharry

01-28-2007, 04:09 PM

Hi Bear

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm so human too and find that my emotions can get into my writings. Sorry if my approach was at all dodgy.

Hey, was just thinking....unity of spirit can be so easily attained. If only people would simply talk their feelings out and understand one another (lay aside some of the church government expectations for a mo ( "government" - what a heavy word in Xian circles...dont like it...reminds me of the days when the leaders was constantly creeping up behind..lol) And sadly , often government imposed rather than through democratic means.

Perhaps I'm being too simplistic. I honestly do feel that certain differences of belief can be compromised without doing away with the foundation of the faith...for the sake of unity.

If I am rebellious it is with a smile...innocent and not maliscious. Sometimes past hurts and memories can be helped through taking the mick without intentional malice and laughing at my weird and wonderful ways.

Blessings and chukcles,

John - HH

PS Its still the sabbath so the chuckling curfew is still in place in the pews....dont want to upset the preacher or be mistaken for holy laughter.

oneway

01-29-2007, 05:54 AM

This is a very interesting topic that hits home with me. I haven't been to church in years. I used to go to church but I never really felt any real closeness or fellowship with its' members, the supposed brothers and sisters in Christ. Sure most of the church members were friendly but there was just not that spiritual connection . Then another problem I have had with chuches is, what if they are teaching doctrines that you don't agree with? Are you supposed to just sit there and take it in and be content with that? What would the apostle Paul do(would he rebuke their teachings)if he were physically present today and went to a church like this? Would he just be happy and content to be fellowshipping even though the doctrines that were being taught were untrue and unfounded? And why can't this forum or one like it be as an assembling together? Is it not possible to teach, learn and love the brothers and sisters in Christ in a forum such as this? Is it not possible that one can become saved in a forum such as this? Or does this only happen in a church? I'm not saying that one must live a sheltered life from physical people. But if a person can learn in here, as an example, they can still be a shining light at work, when they go to the store or any place outside of the home and in the home.
Do you really have to go to a physical church to fellowship with believers? to be saved? to learn?
Is it also not possible to have bible studies with people via the internet or does this also have to be in the physical?

(Message edited by oneway on January 29, 2007)

wyoming

01-29-2007, 11:01 PM

I think we are in good company and making a lot of progress here.

It is supposed to be a Christian trait that, when we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, we seek fellowship with one another. But when we look at most of organized religion, we know instinctively that it is not what the Lord had in mind. Next, remember that our poor brothers and sisters in Christ are not strong enough to see through the issues and do something about it. They have been put together by false leaders, either knowingly or unknowingly. What should we do about it?

pilgrim

01-29-2007, 11:52 PM

wyoming,

You asked, "What should we do about it?"

Look at the following websites. What do you think about it?

http://www.intotruth.org/dev/outside.html

http://www.intotruth.org/dev/outside2.html

(Message edited by pilgrim on January 29, 2007)

pilgrim

01-30-2007, 12:02 AM

http://www.intotruth.org/dev/outside2.html

hillariousharry

01-30-2007, 12:55 AM

Thanks OneWay

Was blessed by your thoughts.

I rarely attend a Fellowship for health and safety reasons and yes I do receive fellowship in here. It enables me to listen to others, review my thoughts and make adjustments as necessary.

My faith remains deep in my heart. I was a church member from birth to the age of 40+. But can honestly say the last 10 years ( am now 50 +) have been the happiest of my life, spiritually too.

Whoever said that you cant be an effective Xian without going to Church? Have proved that wrong ...the years have shown me that that is not accurate. Probably statements like that are made by those who have never been in an "out of church" experience.

HH

wyoming

01-30-2007, 09:48 PM

Pilgrim,

Are you affiliated with the web site?

Fantastic site! I've tried to do something like that at: http://www.ChurchGrowth.cc

I appreciate the recognition that "communion" and "fellowship" are the same thing, and not some modified Passover of mystical black magic that the RCC has handed down to the gullible and naive.

We agree right down the line except for two things. I would like to submit that there are no ordinances for the Church under Grace. The temple worship with all its [carnal works] meets and drinks and divers washings and holy days, was done away when the veil of the temple was wrent, the moment Jesus died -- tis finished. The temporary was set aside and now the Lord Jesus Christ was the means of Atonement.

Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". If there is only one baptism for the Church in the Church epistles, it has to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is simultaneous with the moment we become saved.

Many Christians mis-interpret the fact that John the Baptizer had a Messianic message for the nation of Israel which they rejected [yet to be fulfilled at the Second Coming]. John anointed Jesus as Messiah, something we are not qualified to copy because we are not sinless nor prepared to go to the cross and do something that has already been done.

Please check these out:

Saved By Dry Baptism
http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/baptism.htm

Do All Speak With Tongues
http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/Do%20All%20Speak%20With%20Tongues.htm

--Alan.

pilgrim

02-04-2007, 02:11 PM

Look at the following article from the following website

http://bible-truths.com/faq.html

Are we commanded to go to Church?
There is NO command to assemble with any institutionalized denomination of men. The command is to assemble with "YOURSELVES" together with believers of like mind. Remember where just two are assembled, Christ is there. If you know of no believers, then our fellowship is with Christ and our heavenly Father.
Do I have to belong to a church to be a good Christian? Can I study at home and still be a good Christian?
One "can" be a Christian ANYWHERE, ANY TIME. I cant tell you what to do as far as church goes. If you think there is an institutionalized denomination or church of men somewhere that teaches the truths of God, then go.
There is nowhere in Scripture where we are told to assembles ourselves together in "the House of the Lord." God plainly tells us several times that HE DOES NOT DWELL IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HUMAN HANDS.
What about (Heb.10:25) where the scripture says ( Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another : and so much more as you see the day approaching.) Wouldn't you think its talking about going to church?
NO, I donut think it is talking about going to church. Where do you get "GO TO CHURCH" out of "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together?" I "assemble" myself together with like-minded Believers almost every day of the week. Not once a week in a church building where they teach an hour or two of heresy. We are admonished to "assemble OURSELVES together," not "go to some church building." Why would you want to go to a "Church building?" Donut you know that that is the ONE PLACE WHERE GOD DOES NOT DWELL?
"Howbeit the Most High dwells NOT in temples [or church buildings] made with hands" (Acts 7:48).
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells NOT in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24).
Where DOES GOD DWELL if He doesn't dwell in temples and churches?
"For where two or three are gathered together in MY Name, THERE AM I IN THE MIDST OF THEM" (Matt. 18:20).

wyoming

02-05-2007, 06:17 AM

Pilgrim, Are you a part of any of the two web sites you've mentioned so far?

Who is the "Church"?

Contrary to the widely accepted opinion, "God ... dwelleth not in temples made with hands, neither is worshipped with men's hands as though He needed anything"! [Acts 17:24-25] In the Bible, we read of the "ears of the church" [Acts 11:22], of Saul "making havoc of the church" by persecuting God's people [Acts 8:1-4], of the church in the house of Priscilla and Aquilla [Romans 16:3-5] and of Paul gathering the church together at Antioch [Acts 14:27].

Obviously, "the church" is not a steeple house built by the hands of men, so we ask, "Who [not what] is the church?"

Membership in the church is determined by neither people, preacher nor priest, but the Lord. "... the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. [Acts 2:47] It cannot be joined. All who have been saved by Christ through the gospel [Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4] are the church ... making up its membership.

Those who are "the church" are perfectly organized, having Christ as their "head" and a position that is God-ordained. [Ephesians 1:22-23; 1 Corinthians 12:18] What spiritual folly and ignorance is shown by any of these who believe they need a human "organizer" or that they can improve upon the work of the infinitely wise and powerful God.

Those who are "Christ's body" alone have the divinely appointed ministry of the evangelists, pastors, and teachers. [Ephesians 4:11] They limit and frustrate the work of these Christ-called men when they "call" or "appoint" pastors or teachers of their choice.

This is the only church with divine origin and blessing. It alone can fulfill this prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ for all who believe on him, "I pray ... that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; That the world may believe that thou hast sent me." [John 17:21] All divisions [denominations and sects] show sinful disregard for the will of God and of the "unity of the Spirit" [1 Corinthians 1:10; 3:1-4, 16-17; Ephesians 4:1-6]

pilgrim

02-05-2007, 03:12 PM

wyoming,

I did NOT helped to put together any of the two websites.I had only read part of the websites so I do not know if I agree with everything in those websites but both websites had help me to understand false doctrine and apostacy.

anony

02-05-2007, 06:42 PM

I was born again in a charismatic church and loved the praise and worship and fellowship. But I saw many wrong things too. Long story short I spent the next 20 years trying to find a charismatic church with a strong Bible teaching base and guiding light of Biblical truth but never did.

A few years ago, after I got a computer I stumbled onto some information about what is behind all that is going on in the charismatic and other churches. Have spent a few years looking into it. I have finally seen that contrary to hat we hear about revival everywhere, the church at large is polluted with false teaching and leadership everywhere.

I have tried many churches in the last many years and still have not found one to call home.

I am not going to sit under false leadership and teaching. I love the Word and have studied it on my own but have been so hungry for the fellowship of other Christians. I am finally beginning to find some. Jesus said where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am in the midst of them. Thank God I have at least one other Christian to talk, study, worship and pray with!! We can even take communion together. We are the church.

Scripture says we are to be in fellowship, especially as we see the day of the Lord approaching, as we do today I think. We need the encouragement and support, etc.

The organized professing churches everywhere are becoming more and more polluted with false teaching, leadership and spirituality.

There are many like myself out of the organized churches because of this. All are desperately searching for a church home and can't find one.

BTW, the church growth movement is a haven of false teaching and leadership for many reasons. Christians need to check it out closely by the light of God's Word before getting involved in it or staying in it.

Sorry this is so long. Just wanted to share my experience.

oneway

02-05-2007, 06:56 PM

anony,

Your situation sounds almost identical to mine. It says in the bible to love the brethern in Christ. But who are the brethern in Christ? There are so many false teachers, false prophets, it's no wonder when Jesus returns, that those that offend the kingdom of God will be removed. But we have to live among these for now. How do we know who to trust that they are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ? Many are wolves in sheeps clothing.

bluewater2

02-05-2007, 07:08 PM

I think that "Love they neighbor" says it all. I think that the "brethren in Christ" is a step away from the kind of love that god would want.

nobody777

02-12-2007, 07:56 PM

I like how Bono (singer of the band U2) put it:

"Religion can be the enemy of God. It's often what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building. A list of instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where once people just did it; a congregation led by a man where once they were led by the Holy Spirit. Discipline replacing discipleship." -Bono of U2

derod

02-12-2007, 08:01 PM

Amen my bruthah!!!

derod

02-22-2007, 03:45 PM

History really does repeat itself! This is no different than what Martin Luther was coming against. The idea that there is No Salvation Outside the Roman Catholic Church.. Martin Luther knew that a person's faith and personal relationship with God could never and should never be contained or controlled by an institution. Martin Luther died and many others were put to death for the rights of a believer to worship God in their own homes with their own friends in there own way, based on what the Spirit of the Lord revealed to them from their own bibles. Paul asked this question and I now ask you "Who has cut in on you?" you were betrothed to God and God alone, now you have let another in to break up than union.
Think about it. Why in the book of Revelation does the call go out to the people that have fallen into the Whorelike system to "Come Out of Her? Because she has whoooed the faithful to fall into an adultress relationship with a organization, a building a government of religious leaders. I pray that those still steeped in this deception will indeed Wake Up and strengthen that which still remains.

Come out of Her my friends and do not share with her in her iniquities!

Blessings,
Derod

nobody777

04-09-2007, 06:15 AM

Well spoken Derod!

forest

04-09-2007, 03:12 PM

I personally think the current "reformation" is rather sinister, as there will be no end-time harvest until the 6th trumpet has sounded, and then it will take place in Israel as per the Bible. The way I see it is, the One World Church is in the making.....

nobody777

04-09-2007, 06:51 PM

Hi forest,

I think you're right about the One World Church being in the making; however, I'm curious what you think about the uncountable number of people that the book of Revelation says will be saved through the years of tribulation. This happens before any of the trumpets are sounded and involve, not just Israel, but people from every nation on earth:

Revelation 7:9 - After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands...

Revelation 7:13-14 - Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Just curious what you thought. It seems that there could indeed be a large multitude of people that indeed come to Jesus in these last days.

God bless,
Dave http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

yaakov2

04-09-2007, 07:42 PM

I never knew that lamb's blood is white.

skooter942000

04-09-2007, 08:09 PM

yaakov2

Revelation 7:13-14

This is SYMBOLISM, - (at its best)!!!

- (to one with SIGHT)

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the
blood: and I have given it to you upon the
altar to make an atonement for your souls:
for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement
for the soul.

Take your BLINDERS (OFF),
if this is PLEASING TO GOD , - (that is).
- "HE" make the RULES.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren,
that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, There shall come out of Sion
the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness
from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them,
when I shall take away their sins.

-----------
-------------------
-----------------------------

Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come
into this world, that they which see not might
see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Jhn 9:40 And [some] of the Pharisees which
were with him heard these words, and said unto
him, Are we blind also?

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were
blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say,
We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

yaakov2

04-09-2007, 09:12 PM

skooter

I read your quotes. They don't say lamb's blood is white either.

trainedobserver

04-09-2007, 09:58 PM

y,

It's metaphorical. The blood of the lamb is the blood of jesus shed on the cross and the white robes are a symbol of their sins being washed away by the sacrificial blood. Of course it doesn't make sense.

skooter942000

04-09-2007, 10:52 PM

The Blood of (THIS LAMB)
I.E. JESUS CHRIST/YESHUA MESSIAH

- CLEANSES "OUR SOULS"

A Spiritually CLEAN CHILD , (Will see GOD).
- (Will be allowed to be NEAR HIM).

CHRIST was the PASSOVER LAMB,
HIS BLOOD was SHED (So we may LIVE).

- (*IF YOU YET BELIEVE*)

- "HE" is our KINSMEN REDEEMER.

- (you must know this term)
[&] what it means "FULLY".

In TIME , (If you are a CHILD of "FATHER JACOB"),
- you will - (Most As-suredly)
- BELIEVE UPON THE LAMB SLAIN-

(*If you are JACOBS ACTUAL PROGENY*)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa029.html#9

Read the whole chapter
But here is the MAIN FOCUS:

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you
the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your
eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers
hath he covered.

There are TWO ADVENTS. (CLEARLY DOCUMENTED)

- Sorry you missed the FIRST ONE.
- But you shall see the SECOND.

(...for it is nigh, even at the DOOR)

(http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif)

yaakov2

04-10-2007, 12:42 AM

Ah, I see TO.

Well Skooter thinks that it's symbolism at its best. I disagree. I've read many metaphors and symbolism way better than this one. Saying that washing clothes in blood makes them white is silly. It reminds me of that contest to have the worst prose. The only one I remember was "He was as tall as a 6'3" tree."

I couldn't find it on the net, but I did find this:
She walked toward him, her dress billowing in the wind - not a calm and predictable billows like the sea, but more like the billowing of a mildewed shower curtain in a cheap motel where one has to dance around to avoid touching it while trying to rinse off soap.

skooter942000

04-10-2007, 08:37 PM

It is called "ATONEMENT.
- And it works with BLOOD.

17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the
blood: and I have given it to you upon the
altar to make an atonement for your souls:
for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement
for the soul.

3722 kaphar kaw-far' a primitive root;
to cover (specifically with bitumen);
figuratively, to expiate or condone,
to placate or cancel:-- appease,
make (an atonement, cleanse, disannul,
forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon,
purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile
(-liation).

- if you don't use (HIS BLOOD),
- you are not pardoned. (For your "SINS")

If you use HIS BLOOD (To ERASE YOUR SINS),
you become "CLEAN". = (PURITY)

- (In CHRISTIANITY)

- Hence your YOM KIPPUR

3725 kippur kip-poor' from 3722;
expiation (only in plural): -atonement.

- We can ask 365 days a year for forgiveness.
- (to your ONE)

(http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif)

yaakov2

04-10-2007, 11:12 PM

We can ask 365 days a year for forgiveness.
-(to your ONE)

You would do best to stick to your own religion, as your statement just proved that you know nothing about mine.

ezekiel_37

04-10-2007, 11:19 PM

You would do best to stick to your own religion, as your statement just proved that you know nothing about mine

lol

You don't even know yours.

and here you are budding into a Christian thread.

hypocrite
c

bear

04-12-2007, 04:19 AM

TO stated:

It's metaphorical. The blood of the lamb is the blood of jesus shed on the cross and the white robes are a symbol of their sins being washed away by the sacrificial blood. Of course it doesn't make sense. 

Actually, it is easy to understand if you if one does understand:

1. The Jewish sacrificial system. One needs to undertand the lamb and the importance of blood.

Many Christians do not know how to explain the metaphor of Jesus as a lamb, nor how his blood can wash.

2. There is a physical reality which explains this spiritual idea.

In our body, our blood is our life; if we lose it, we die. Blood also acts as a scrubing agent.

Example: If we tie our arm, cutting off the blood supply, then begin to squeeze a racket ball we will begin to build toxins in our muscles; are muscles will begin to die. After a few minutes, we would scream in pain while attempting to squeeze the ball.

Once we untie our arm, and blood began to flow, it would begin to cleanse our muscles from the toxins.

The idea of Jesus' blood cleansing us from sin, speaking from a spiritual foundation, is easily understood.

yaakov2

04-12-2007, 02:59 PM

bear

TO stated: It's metaphorical. The blood of the lamb is the blood of jesus shed on the cross and the white robes are a symbol of their sins being washed away by the sacrificial blood. Of course it doesn't make sense.

Actually, it is easy to understand if you if one does understand:
1. The Jewish sacrificial system. One needs to undertand the lamb and the importance of blood.

You don’t understand our system of korban.

2. There is a physical reality which explains this spiritual idea. In our body, our blood is our life; if we lose it, we die. Blood also acts as a scrubing agent.
Example: If we tie our arm, cutting off the blood supply, then begin to squeeze a racket ball we will begin to build toxins in our muscles; are muscles will begin to die. After a few minutes, we would scream in pain while attempting to squeeze the ball. Once we untie our arm, and blood began to flow, it would begin to cleanse our muscles from the toxins. The idea of Jesus' blood cleansing us from sin, speaking from a spiritual foundation, is easily understood.

Your explanation doesn’t wash. When the blood in your arm “clenses” the toxins, your arm turns from whitish (lack of blood) to red (normal). The “washing” is red, not white. In this case, when the object is white, it is full of toxins. Not quite the way you’d want to describe your god, I think.

saygoodnightgracie

04-12-2007, 03:13 PM

I am an out of church Christian directly after service ends on Sundays and Wednesdays, normally my out of church experience consists of eating, working, living, etc or any other things that I can do to kill the time between in church and out of church times...

skooter942000

04-12-2007, 11:10 PM

RE:

From Don/skooter942000

We can ask 365 days a year for forgiveness.
-(to your ONE)

|
|
V

from yaakov2

You would do best to stick to your own religion,
as your statement just proved
that you know nothing about mine.


-----------------------------------
LOL

Laugh
Out
Loud
(http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif)

General observances

Yom Kippur is the Jewish day of repentance,
considered to be one of the holiest and most
solemn days of the year. Its central theme is
atonement and reconciliation.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur


'i' reiterate

We can ask 365 days a year for forgiveness.
-(to your ONE)

yaakov2

04-14-2007, 01:04 AM

That's great Skooter, you can paste from Wikipedia. You are still ignorant of Judaism.

For your information, we can atone for our actions at any time, not just on Yom Kippur. Also, atonement is part of our weekly Shabbat. You think G-d would only enable us to atone once a year? Why do you have such a low opinion of G-d and His Laws? His laws are Eternal. You should have more faith in His writing abilities.

skooter942000

04-15-2007, 10:43 PM

'i' do not have a LOW OPINION - (OF GOD),
...........nor (HIS LAWS).

- 'i' honor them. (ALL OF THEM)

---------------------------------------------
RE: From yaakov2/jacob

Why do you have such a low opinion of G-d and His Laws?
---------------------------------------------

Those words , (are yours alone).
- you own up to them.

- They came from you. (not me)

THE VEIL WAS RENT ,(FROM TOP TO BOTTOM).
- AT THE CRUCIFIXION. (...Of YESHUA)

So we may ENTER INTO THE HOLY OF HOLIES
any time we so choose.

- Can you do this 365 days a year (Y/N)
(...Or "ONCE" a YEAR)

Since no more blood lettings are permitted,
how do you find forgiveness, (Though prayers)?

Does reciting Jewish prayers lead to forgiveness?

- Where did this CHANGE come from?

-More info for others-
http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

Lev 16:29 ¶ And [this] shall be a statute for
ever unto you: [that] in the seventh month,
on the tenth [day] of the month, ye shall
afflict your souls, and do no work at all,
[whether it be] one of your own country,
or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

Lev 16:30 For on that day shall [the priest]
make an atonement for you, to cleanse you,
[that] ye may be clean from all your sins
before the LORD.

Lev 16:31 It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto
you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a
statute for ever.

Lev 16:32 And the priest, whom he shall
anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to
minister in the priest's office in his
father's stead, shall make the atonement,
and shall put on the linen clothes,
[even] the holy garments:

Lev 16:33 And he shall make an atonement
for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make
an atonement for the tabernacle of the
congregation, and for the altar,
and he shall make an atonement for the priests,
and for all the people of the congregation.

Lev 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting
statute unto you, to make an atonement for
the children of Israel for all their sins once
a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

bear

04-16-2007, 12:40 AM

Hi Yaakov.

You stated:

You don’t understand our system of korban. 

I will concede that I do not unserstand the system in its present context; 21st century.

One of my early mentors, a Prof. in college, and the Chair of Hebrew Studies does. He is a Jew, in nationality, and was raised in the religion; Jewish schooling and all. He bacame a Chrsitian in his 20's. My understanding of the sacrificial system of the Hebrew scriptures is influenced in large part by his teachings.

I do understand the importance of blood in that context, and while I am not Jewish, I have a very good understanding of the scriptures and history; I majored in it in college, and have continued to study ever since.

You also stated:

Your explanation doesn’t wash. When the blood in your arm “clenses” the toxins, your arm turns from whitish (lack of blood) to red (normal). The “washing” is red, not white. In this case, when the object is white, it is full of toxins. Not quite the way you’d want to describe your god, I think. 

My example was from the lips of a Medical Doctor, I am no that wise (lol).

My point was not about the color of ones arm. The idea is what blood does in the body, a physical act, and what Jesus' blood does to our sins, a spiritual act.

The washing of something "white" in the scriptures is a symbol of purity. It does not have anthing to do with the color of a persons skin, or the fact that washing something in red blood would physically make it, well, red.

I think that you understand/understood my point prior. However, I understand that you are not in a position, being a non-Christian, to concede to it.