Itbs the falling away most churches are cults now [Archive]

drumladd (drumladd)

09-28-2005, 10:27 PM

I don't necessarily think we are seeing an increase in church corruption-- it's just more easy to investigate and talk about thanks to technology, especially the internet. Church history shows that corruption and even cultic practices have ALWAYS been with us. It's just only in the last 10 years that the internet has provided hubs for reporting it like factnet. I think the advent of TV has also given some corrupt people platforms that 100 years ago didn't exist.

I will also disagree that "most" churches are cults. I really think the opposite is true. Again, you are letting technology and media drive your opinion of the depth of the situation.

Hear me out: I am not saying there are no problems, but it is clearly not the vast majority of churches. There's what, 100 or so seperate threads here? A good number of them are individuals (Carman, Olsteen, Graham), so they're not even all about a church. There are thousands upon thousans of ministries out there, and if we're looking at 150-200 "cults", and if you said there were 2,000 ministries out there (that's a low number), you're still only saying 4-6%.

If you're trying to take a litmus test of corruption in the church based on this site, to me that's kind of like relying on CNN/USA Today polls for concrete evidence on what people think.

Also, I think there can be a difference between a cult and church corruption, and while we call this board "Cults and Sects" to me it is not all cults.

ihavesinned (ihavesinned)

09-29-2005, 12:29 AM

Forget all that,
Now you can have all the benefits of "Church" right from the comfort of your living room. Tune in Sunday nights to BET to catch the good Reverend Leroy Jenkins, and be sure to order some of his miracle water.

love22698 (love22698)

09-29-2005, 03:29 AM

if a persson sins they can ask forgiveness which they sahll receive from THE LORD JESUS . they may still not use wisdom in their preaching which is what i think rev jenkins is doing.

doug (doug)

09-29-2005, 04:49 AM

Sally,
I agree with you that there is a falling away and that it is being exposed that the denominations have become apostate. Even if they were never all there they are becoming more evident and are under judgment for it now.

david_munson (david_munson)

09-30-2005, 10:45 PM

Another way to put it is."are we in the end times?"
I believe we are.The scriptures say that "many shall be decieved."Is this not what we see all around the world?
Jesus said,"you shall be killed for my name sake."
Just look around and see how persecution has increased in the last ten years.
Yes there is a falling away.When my father was a young man,most of what we see now would not have been tolerated.We have become desensitised(sp)by that which should cause us to be offended or alarmed.

Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave

}

easeltine (easeltine)

10-02-2005, 04:51 AM

Just another thought.

The Catholic Church in Martin Luther's day.

* Making relics up to get money from them.
* An exact count of purgatory of One Million, Nine Hund...something like that.
* Indulgences galore! You could get anyone out of purgatory and hell by money.
* You could do acts to the relics and again give the Church money to get loved ones out of purgatory.
* Luther's opponent, Tetzel, had two kids, these monks were rotten to the core.
* History of homosexuality in the papacy, among the Medici.

Good reasons for the Reformation.
Now you see some modern Protestant Churches worse than the present Catholic Church. Here is what I know about.

* The Bible is thought of inspired, like Shakespeare, not Inerrant.
* My brother's father-in-law goes to one of these churches and complains that when he goes to the denominational gatherings they sit around a table and decide which words of Christ they want to accept and which ones they want to through out.
* Their Jesus becomes more human and could have sinned while on earth. They have a different Jesus.
* They ordain practicing homosexuals as ministers and priests. Practicing means openly, currently practicing the sin.
* They have open communion policy with practicing homosexuals, same definition as above.
* They have open communion with other denominations that practice the same policies as above.

Now, Dr. Martin Luther would be extremely angry with them, I have just described the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Go to their website and check it out.

Sally, my friends used to tell me that I was looking for a demon under every rock, the problem is that you start looking under every rock and you find demons under them.

sally (sally)

10-05-2005, 08:04 PM

Yes, the churches have pretty much fallen away now from the way the early church really functioned. That is why you are finding demons under every rock now.

Sally

ihavesinned (ihavesinned)

10-05-2005, 09:41 PM

Yes,
this is so true, that's why we all need to call 1-866-797-5959 and give our hearts and our savings to the good Reverend Robert Tilton. Click here to hear him speaking in tongues.http://216.131.88.117/tilton/

arron (arron)

10-05-2005, 10:18 PM

what is wrong with the sinner besides being a sinner that she or he or whatever is so down onrobert tilton, leroy jenkins and others who are of the pentacostal faith is he she or what ever just an idiot or what.

justlittleolme (justlittleolme)

10-06-2005, 12:41 AM

Paul talked about the secret workings of iniquity that was present in the church. I believe we are living in a day where some christians will see the abomination that causes desolation in the Holy Place. THE CHURCH.. why do you think it says "let the reader understand?"
just about every practice in the modern day church regardless of what denomination it is has adopted pagonistic rituals to take the place of true relationship with Christ. We are taught to believe that independant of the church there is no salvation.. they mean the CHURCH BUILDING! which is not really the true church anyway. The Lord says the he does not dwell in temples built by the hands of men... But mind control is used in every service. we are taught that if we don't pay tithe to the pastor that we are under a curse, we are treated like we are backsliden if we miss more than one service and most importantly.. we are told that we need to submit to our Pastors in everything,,, thats where the abuse lies.. I don't want to sound like I am bashing the church..but it appears that, that is what needs to be done at a certain level.. we need to come back to the true church.. the fellowship of believers caring for one another. a fellowship that is in control of giving to whom ever has need among them. Just like the apostles of old did.. I believe that the Lord is greived by the desire of HIS children to be rich. I beleive the definition of blessed has been grossly perverted by the modern church and it is the very desire to be somebody and to be blessed that acts as the very carrot that entices us and blinds us to the control of others. We are so ready to believe that someone else must know better about God's will for our lives than we would ourselves, and in doing so we just hand over our lives and our personal relationship with the Lord to someone else.. I say it is time to get back to the basics and put aside all the things that church does that are not even biblical.. I encourage anyone reading this to study the church in the bible.. you will see that just about everything the church does is traditions of man.. No biblical basis at all.

thank you all for allowing my to aire my thoughts.

God Bless.

ihavesinned (ihavesinned)

10-06-2005, 12:51 AM

Relax Arron,
Nobody said anything about the Pentecostal Faith. I'm just really into speaking in tongues and miracle water.

Do I sound like an idiot? You're the one missing the joke. Have you even seen Brother Bob?

PS "ihavesinned" is a commemorational tribute to Jimmy Swaggart's tearful apology to his sheep.

wyoming (wyoming)

10-07-2005, 12:36 AM

.
Hey, this is the best thread on FactNet.

justlittleolme (justlittleolme)

10-07-2005, 12:52 AM

Hey wyoming,
Are you new to Factnet? Be careful of some of the people that are just in these forums to start stuff. Just ignore them.. Welcome, and thanks for complimenting this thread.. There are a bunch of good one's.

Blessings!

wyoming (wyoming)

10-07-2005, 01:56 AM

I had about 250 posts before FactNet started numbering us over again. I've posted mostly under Doctrine. Actually I'm burnt out on FactNet.

From my web site: http://www.churchgrowth.cc/problem.htm

justlittleolme (justlittleolme)

10-07-2005, 02:47 AM

Wyoming,
I'm sorry if I offended you by thinking you were new.. I just want to protect everyone that comes into these forums. Some peoeple can be so vile and hateful.. I like your article alot. You should check out www.truthforfree.com (http://www.truthforfree.com) it is all about what we believe concerning the church..
Have a nice evening, and God Bless!

common_sense (common_sense)

10-07-2005, 02:53 AM

I haven't heard Larry Norman in years! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

wyoming (wyoming)

10-07-2005, 03:00 AM

I went to www.truthforfree.com (http://www.truthforfree.com) [Are you affiliated with them?] and noticed their reference to Frank Viola's house church resurces. http://www.ptmin.org/ I appreciate his books.

Over at HOUSE CHURCH under DOCTRINE, the discussion is similar to this.

--Alan.

(Message edited by Wyoming on October 07, 2005)

justlittleolme (justlittleolme)

10-07-2005, 09:25 PM

Wyoming,
Yes, one of my husband and I's dearest friends is the Webmaster.. His name is David Yeubanks.. Hey do me a favor and go over to the Christian International/Bill Hamon thread and tell me what you think..?

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 01:56 AM

Unforunately we have to be careful because the same thing that has happened to the churches is happening with the home churches now too. I see a big division in differing opinions in the home church movement concerning certain customs such as women preachers and the head covering expecially. It is like there are two camps of home churchers now and unforunately I feel the wrong camp is actually winning the war, sad to say, but not surprising!!! After what we see happened to the churches!!!

Why is it that doing things God's way always seems so hard for people to do? It says that God's commandments are not grievous. It is that age old problem of hardened hearts perhaps?

Another website that I have recently found for people coming out of the churches is www.lifestream.org (http://www.lifestream.org) and they have a discussion group with about 250 in it. I really haven't spent much time there to find out what they really believe.

Some of the house churches are nothing but a small version of the church now.

Let no man deceive you and watch and pray, keep your garments that you not be found naked, don't be evil servants and smite your fellow brethern.

Sally

(Message edited by Sally on October 07, 2005)

wyoming (wyoming)

10-08-2005, 07:04 AM

Mrs. JoeRod,

I looked at CI. It's just another control cult. I looked at TruthSetFree some more. I noticed two more personalities: I was in a meeting with Dave Hunt in Bend, Oregon, in July. I thought that Peter Popoff was exposed as a fraud!

I think it is mostly impossible to reform a movement that has gained any size and infrastructure. As goes the leader, so goes the institution. It's all about power and control.

The nature of man is the same in a small group as in a large group. In a small group that is new and growing, whoever has the upper hand is usually fearful that things will get out of hand and is intent upon keeping it tight. Then the group is no longer focuses on scriptural communion under Grace. In a smaller group you may be able to deal with these issues better if enough folks are resolved to have the right attitude and do not stoop to the level of the vicious troublemakers. You have to win over the ones who are the most influential and develop a confidence level. Watch out not to develop into a group controlled machine. The less rules, the better. There aren't any ideas that are better than scriptural ideas. God doesn't need our help. The formula for success is to keep our eyes on the Lord and off of each other. If we are right with the Lord, we will automatically be right with each other.

--Alan.

franklin (franklin)

10-08-2005, 05:08 PM

Most churches are not cults. But many non cultic churches are spiritually dead. Almost as bad.

But as Christians we need to continue to expose and break up the cults that are out there. They are a blight on man and on the body of Christ.

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 08:51 PM

Franklin,

Well, when a church turns spiritually dead then don't they turn into a cult then?

That is what I would consider the church I grew up in to be is a cult and it is also spiritually dead. If you don't call a spiritually dead church a cult then what do you call it. I has a form of Godliness but denies the true power of God, wouldn't that be a cult? Something that is alluring people into it that is not the truth. Isn't that what a cult would be?

Think of the cults like David Koresh, Jim Jones, why is it so far out of thought to think that some of these "so called churches" haven't turned into cults. Oh they may not be the "weird" looking kind of cult but they are a cult nonetheless, they still mislead people into a kind of life that can be dangerous to their health and possibly bring death to them. Isn't that what a cult is?

Is a form of Godliness that denies the power of God a cult? It is not a form of Godliness that believes in the real power of God evidently.

I don't know I consider the church I came out of to be a cult and it's a pretty typical looking church at this point. Someone going past it would just think it's a church. But to me it definitely was a cult.

Sally

franklin (franklin)

10-08-2005, 09:34 PM

I went to many different churches growing up being raised in a military family. Methodist, baptist etc. When I moved out on my own I went to Baptist and Methodist churches. I found that these churches appear to give me the word of God, but with no real substance. It was all singing of hymns, rituals and a warm and fuzzy sermons. But no real meat. I had a hard time staying awake. There was nothing there to sustain my spiritual growth.

The people were nice and I believe were Christians. No legalism, no controlling, nobody shamed me or rebuked me if I failed to come to a service.

No way, no how were these churches cults. They were mainstream churches. Their pastors were selected by and accountable to the national organization.

These churches are the majority of the churches in America. They are not cults. But to me they lack a lot in being spiritually alive. They did not fill my needs of the spirit at that time in my life.

This might meet the needs of the ones there, but not me.

But these mainstream churches are almost the same now as they were 100 years ago. Unfortunately some have become more liberal with attendance going down. So they try to reach out to people who are in open defiance of God in acceptance. This deepens their spiritual death.

If that is all I had to go to have fellowship with other Christians, then I would go.

When a pastor or anyone explains to me a facet of God, that I was seeking knowledge and understanding of, then I am eternally grateful to that person. That is what I seek in a church.

A cult twists the scriptures, beats you over the head with legalism and promotes their leader as a man worshipping icon to be looked up to and praised (worshipped). Cults try to make it impossible for you to leave. They drive into your head that if you leave then you will lose your salvation and God will curse you. Cults make you believe that they are the only church that has it right and that their leader is anointed, appointed, holy, godly, and a apostle and prophet of God. But in the back of your mind you know they are wrong when you see their feet of clay.

Most American churches are not cults. But the ones that are giving Christianity a bad name need to be exposed.

So don't dilute the meaning of a cult. That does a disservice to those who are in and are trying to get out. All they need is our help.

Yours for a cult free tomorrow.

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 10:08 PM

Franklin,

Well, perhaps I am thinking too much in my mind about the church I was raised in. It was a very different kind of church and I really was not allowed to or suppose to go to other churches but because my parents weren't saved (my grandparents took me to church) I was able to go to a few churches in my life. They really thought they were the only church. Perhaps I'm being just a tid bit too hasty to call all churches cults because most baptist, methodists, lutheran will allow you to go to out churches normally.

BUT I will say this. These churches teach another gospel (most of them, 95% of them) and the bible says "let he who teaches another gospel be accursed". And they are getting very very very close to being cults. Because a cult endangers your life, it can be deadly, and what these churches teach can be deadly too. So in that sense they are like cults. I guess I would say they've become so spiritually dead in their depths of their spiritual death that they have the same effect on people as cults do now. So that fine line of spiritually dead or a cult is very very close.

When a church decides to preach another gospel doesn't it in a sense become a cult? It just isn't one of those weird looking strange organizations that we are use to seeing as a cult. It's more a subtle cult. When it's another gospel then what Jesus preached there is definitely something wrong. I would call them cults but you wouldn't. You would just call them spiritualy dead. I would call them at this point cults due to the falling away.

I would add this, they are worse than cults because of the subtleness of it. They are organizations worse than cults. At least with a cult you know something is wrong, in a "church" that you think is the "church" but isn't, you don't even know to suspect something is wrong. Everyone makes it look like it's so normal, that's the danger of it. At least with cults people know they are not right, but they assume churches are right and no one suspect they aren't. How dangerous!!!!! The great delusion of the end times!!! And then you wonder how the antichrist will get people to worship him!!

I hope you understand what I am saying.

Sally

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 10:21 PM

sally (sally)

10-08-2005, 10:33 PM

oops sorry that posted twice, it keeps doing that to me

Franklin,

I think that you may be right as well as me. Ok these churches may not be the cults that brainwash you to the point that you think you're going to hell if you leave them but they can do to you the things you've listed. They can twist the scriptures, beat you over the head with legalism, they can set up one man as someone to worship (not as obvious as a hard core cult), a lot of churches can make you feel if you leave their denomination that you've left the best church, years ago before the internet they even could make you feel you might not be saved. So your description that you actually gave does come close to describing a lot of the church situations that I've observed in my life. But I know and understand what you are saying.

When are we going to realize that our churches are resembling more cult likeness than God likeness?

Sally

franklin (franklin)

10-08-2005, 11:06 PM

Good points! Factnet is constructed of posters who recognize and are against cults. And confused posters who are here seeking the truth of what a cult is. And then there are the posters who are in cults and try to rationalize their foolishness and precarious position with God.

Like these posters, churches are in those three categories. There are churches who are preaching the true gospel and do not resemble a cult at all. They are not in any immediate danger threat of becoming a cult.

Then there are those who are confused and either don't preach the complete, whole gospel or promote a slightly twisted, but unintentional, interpretation of the gospel. These churches do not resemble cults but are on a slippery slope. Many will not become full blown cults, some will.

Then there are cults where the leaders intentionally twist the gospel to further their own elevation over and control of the congregation. They are so intoxicated with their vainglory, power and greed that there is no turning back to the true word of God where they would lose everything but regain their soul. Satan has a tight grip on them and won't let go.

I fight cults in two areas. Churches that could become cults and those that are out and out cults. Don't care whose toes I step on. Down with cults!

sally (sally)

10-09-2005, 03:00 AM

Franklin,

I would have to say an Amen to that. Down with cults, that's a good thing.

Do cults usually have a religious tone to them? I guess most of them do. But I suppose there are a few that don't, like those people that killed themselves when Haley's Comet came in the 80's. Some cults may be involved with aliens too.

I just say down with anything that misleads people!!!

I know the owner of this website was involved with scientology. Probably made this website because of that. I'm not so much involved in that as I am in the churches that are decieving people. It's kind of along the line of what cults do to people. This website caught my attention when I came on because it had listed in the cult section the church I actually came out of which is the Mennonite Church (I attended that one after I was married). Now some people wouldn't consider that a cult but I would. I was raised in the Apostolic Christian Church which I would also consider a cult too. It is just a fine line and I think as we learn more and more about some of these churches we will understand that they will fall into the categories of cults, even though they APPEAR to be mainstream. That is what people are not understanding. It's not just the Mormons, it is actually more of the mainstream churches actually, when we start to examine them very closely and also hear testimonies of people that have experienced them too.

This is the scary thing, people are not seeing some of the mainstream churches as cults and they actually are. As long as they are undetected, you might say, they go on causing harm without anyone knowing. As long as people think they are OK the damage continues to happen. This website has in a very unique way, hit on a very big problem out there. I've been saying it for over 25 years and people are starting to home church for this very reason, a lot of people are. All you have to do is search for websites for home churches and you will see. There are a lot of people home churching for a lot of different reasons, but a lot of people are doing it for the reason I am and that is they left the churches because they really didn't like what was in them.

I think it effects people more than what you realize. A lot of people get hurt in churches and will actually turn then to something like sciectology and go into something like that. Because they don't know what else to do.

Sally

franklin (franklin)

10-09-2005, 04:02 AM

The Haley Bopp (Heaven's Gate) idiots were a religious group.

I don't consider apostle, mennonite, amish or pentecostal churches etc. as mainstream. Maybe from your background somehow you do. But they are not. I consider them to be in general legalistic and man-worshipping. Not mainstream. Cultish? Maybe. Depends on the individual church.

Most Americans are Baptists, Methodists, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran and Catholic. Many others could be included. These are mainstream. They are the majority of Christian churches across this land. Ritualistic, yes. But I don't necessarily call them cultish.

I've had cult apologists try to claim that early Christianity was a cult. Wrong! The early church did not fit the description of a cult. Neither does the modern church.

Cults are just an ugly result of some people just craving a religious experience without really checking out whether it is the true gospel or not.

Some people in cults are there because the crave an abusive relationship. They are victims of an abusive parent or spouse and it just feels natural for them to be abused. There are so many similarities to domestic abuse and cult abuse.

"If you leave me, nobody else will have you!"

"If you leave this church, you leave God!"

When they return everything is normal for awhile until the abuse starts again. It always starts again.

So let's leave the definition of cults as black and white as they are. There is some grey. But mostly black and white.

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. The baby is the bride of Christ. The Christian Church.

franklin (franklin)

10-09-2005, 05:33 AM

If the whole point here was to validate and promote the idea of home churches by dissing traditional churches, why don't you just come out and say so.

Home churches can be just as cultish, warped and scripture twisting as a regular church.

wyoming (wyoming)

10-09-2005, 09:35 PM

Sally,

Cults have a militant regimentation including the preaching of another gospel -- adding to or taking away from the Word of God.

The concepts you express are correct but you use the terminology on "cult" in a context that escapes some very good and well established definitions. What you see is sectarianism, which can be a slippery slope to becoming a cult. Which of the thousands of sects is correct? They can't all be right. There's only one TRUTH. Sectarianism [division] has to be sin.

http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/Content_Sin_of_Sect.htm

--Alan.

sally (sally)

10-09-2005, 09:58 PM

Wyoming,

You're using some terms that I don't even know if I know what they mean.

I may mean sectarianism (it is worse than sectarianism now) but what I'm telling you is that the churches are worse than what you think they may be.

I wouldn't step foot in a church anymore myself. That slippery slope you talk about some of them following, most of the churches (at this point in my way of talking I would say all) have slipped down it now.

I'll make my statement again. I won't go in any of the churches now they are so bad. I prefer to home church like a lot of other people are starting to do.

Remember what Jesus said? He wondered if there would even be any REAL faith left among those alive when He returned. I think to me it looks like He was pretty much correct.

A lot of people think I am nuts. But if websites like this are really serious about helping people then they will let what people like me are saying stay on their board.

I'm trying to get you to see that the churches are like cults now. And this was prophesied to happen and is called the falling away.

I blame the churches for many times causing the people to seek other things and then they fall prey to really bad cults.

I hope you understand.

Sally

(Message edited by Sally on October 09, 2005)

frankenchrist (frankenchrist)

10-09-2005, 10:08 PM

That's 'Hale-Bopp" comet. Not 'Haley', Haley's comet is a different comet altogether.

Marshall "Herf" Appelwhite and Bonny Nettles were the leaders of the cult until Nettles died.

The Heaven's Gate cult (which was called several different names over the years) was not a particularly dangerous cult until the 90s -- a strange group to be sure, bu not dangerous until Herf started losing it.

...and what is a cult?

Steve Hassan's BITE model:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm

Robert J. Lifton's criteria:

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria

wyoming (wyoming)

10-09-2005, 10:49 PM

Sally,

I'm closer to you than you may think. I've been outside of organized religion for 30 years with convictions similar to yours. I see what you see. The fellowship I was in turned into a cult and I haven't had success with any and all the house churches I've attended. Right now me and my wife have begun to compromise in fellowshipping with a small old community church way out in the country. These are simple folks who show the fruit of the Holy Spirit. The atmosphere is peaceful and simple. The pastor is humble and not on a pedestal and doesn't have an agenda contrary to Christ. He wasn't trained by any seminary to be a mechanical wind-up Christian. I've had enough experience to know how to put folks to the test. We've been praying for fellowship for 7 years. This is the best I found in all my life. I just wish they hadn't taken a name and incorporated themselves. I can appreciate the concerns of those on this board.

--Alan.

(Message edited by Wyoming on October 09, 2005)

franklin (franklin)

10-10-2005, 12:09 AM

A person that I know thought the same things about organized churches after hopping from one to another. They thought that the endtimes were near. Saw in every news event something that validated the end times were near. Saw something in every church that was wrong. So with a handful like church hopping friends they started a home church. They had so called ministers visit and give sermons. They selected one who came down from North Carolina.. They tried to expand but to no avail. He went back to North Carolina and invited them to come also. Then they house churched some more listening to tapes of his minister. Next thing you know all of them moved to North Carolina and are in a full blown cult. One of this countries worst. Abusive controlling and scripture warping. And they can't get out.

Don't let this happen to you!

Don't slander the body of Christ. Using the powers of discernment God will give you, you can find a good church. Just don't be so picky.

Home churches can lead to cults also.

Lighten up! Trust in the Lord!

frankenchrist (frankenchrist)

10-10-2005, 12:29 AM

Franklin: "Home churches can lead to cults also."

Yep, here is an example:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michael_haggerty/expose3.htm

sally (sally)

10-10-2005, 03:25 AM

Frankenchrist,

The bible says let no man decieve you by any means. I just don't understand it, if people are doing God's Word then no one should be able to mislead them into a cult even if it is a home church. The people should just leave. They probably either aren't into the Word because if they would, they would see that they are not to let anyone decieve them by any means. This includes a home church you may be attending. If a home church you are attending starts to turn bad, then just leave. No one is forcing you to stay there.

Yes, I agree some home churches can become cults but if you see that happening you should just leave. People should know the Word, be strong, and have the strength to see when someone is decieving them. And just leave. Not all home churches turn into cults but I do agree that some have.

See this is the problem, 30 years ago we did not understand that the churches have fallen away. But now we are starting to see that and know it, the internet has helped more and more people understand that. There are a lot of people on the internet that know the churches have fallen away from the way the church started out. People are starting to wake up, like the parable of the 10 virgins and when they wake up finally it is not so easy to decieve them and they are going to be more aware and not let others decieve them into cults. Like for instance, me, if I would start to go to a home church and say I was going for even quite a few years. But things started to go sour, I would leave. I wouldn't stick around and go down the tubes with them. But in the past people haven't been that smart, they let the David Koreshes and Jim Jones lead them into deception. But we also have the internet and website like this one that is helping people too.

Sally

wyoming (wyoming)

10-10-2005, 04:06 AM

It's not easy to leave a cult. We started out like house churches many years ago. We had a split over cultic practices and 30-40% of about 2000 folks in 8 assemblies were marked to be avoided. The problem is that everyone is intermarried. It broke up families because of inlaw/outlaw entanglements. Young husbands had to decide which direction to go in consideration of their wives. Parents and their married kids and grandchildren and cousins couldn't see each other anymore. The heartache is like death.

turtle (turtle)

10-10-2005, 04:13 AM

wyoming, I agree it is families and friends that get torn apart by cults. It hurts and even if they remain together they are still caught in the web somehow.

franklin (franklin)

10-10-2005, 04:15 AM

One of the main reasons people find it hard to leave cults is because of blackmail. Inside you are encouraged to tell all about yourself including your sins. It is all recorded on tape and paper. If you leave, all of this comes out.
Scientology has mastered this controlling factor to a fine art. But all cults use it to control their slaves and to keep them from escaping the plantation.

sally (sally)

10-10-2005, 02:38 PM

Wyoming,

Sounds bad and I feel for your suffering. But remember God can use all things for the good and someday not even the rememberance of these days will come into our minds. That's the great thing about the world to come, because some of us truly need to forget that all this has ever happened including Jesus. Why some suffer more than other, I don't know, maybe Satan knew they were more of a threat to him than others and he really tried to do them in. By and by, further along we'll understand all.

You are not alone in your suffering. I wasn't even in a cult and my whole family has separated from me. I haven't seen ANY, I mean ANY, of my family other than my husband and my children for 10 years now. The words says that the sword will come and it has for me, except for 2 against 3, it was more like 1 against 100. I think these last days as especially bad, everything is magnified. If the division was 2 against 3 in Jesus's day it is 1 against 1000 now. So things are really bad.

People will pay someday for the things they have done to other people down here. Pray that God will forgive them.

I'm sorry that your home churches ended up in that kind of shape, it is so easy to happen. People just have to realize that more than anything in these days that the one thing they have to start doing is not let anyone deceive them by any means. They have to be strong enough to leave, I know that sometimes is easier said than done. But to do the right thing is always the answer and then let God work the other problems out such as family members who are still involved in the cult. It's not a bottomless pit, there are answers and people out here that can help people that have gotten caught up in cults. The worse thing you can do is stay in them, you can end up dead and your family too.

As far as the blackmail goes, I've heard of that. That is just plain out and out evil coming against a person. You just have to get into the place in the Lord where He can stop that kind of evil from visiting you. There is a place in the Lord where evil like that simply does not happen to you anymore because you know what to do to stop it. I know that may sound really far out, but it's the truth. It involves knowing the Word of God and His promises such as Proverbs 19:23. See the Lord is always the answer, ALWAYS.

Sally

turtle (turtle)

10-11-2005, 04:05 AM

I wondered where this link went I wonder if others lost track of it.

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 05:00 PM

Turtle,

Yeah, they moved it and I'm surprised they didn't delete it. So I guess I was fortunate that they just moved it.

I do think most churches are cults now regardless of what others say or agree. The are deceiving organizations that are false and deceive people. You can die in them, so I don't see anything different about extreme cults and false churches. And a voice needs to go out over the internet about not only the extreme cults that are deceiving people but the false churches that are deceiving people too. But I doubt that will happen from what it says in the bible. The antichrist wants to keep the truth buried so he can just deceive more. But at least a small voice is still trying to shine out as a star in that darkness that is as dark as the night.

The bible says there would be a falling away before Jesus returned. The churches becoming false to the point of cults is what this falling away is. Revelations actually talks about this and tells people to come out of them. But then people like me usually get accused of being part of the falling away myself. See people have it in thier minds that the falling away will be some crazy group of people that will leave the churches in the end days. I don't know where people get this kind of idea. It certainly comes from a lack of studying and searching on the internet because there are a lot of people around like me and a lot of websites and information people can read. If they only will look. We have testimonies of seeing the state of the churches and yet we seem to be totally ignored. People say that what we say is wrong. The bibles says woe to those who call good evil and evil good. And many are doing this in these days. People do this because of a lack of being "awake" and failing to search a matter out. And to some degree I think God just allows them to continue to believe that what we say is wrong. It is part of their delusion that they are in.

You see Turtle someone like me can't help people in cults unless we know the truth. I can't tell people about that verse in Proverbs 19:23 and how it can help them unless I've learned it myself. This kind of knowledge is for those who are in the meat.

Sally

godchild (godchild)

10-11-2005, 06:15 PM

Doomsaying. Paranoia. Proverbs 19:21 There are many plans in a man's (some believe this only speaks to men; I don't) heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel--that will stand.
Let go and let God!

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 07:55 PM

Woe to those who call good evil and evil good. Yes, let the counsel of the Lord stand. It's plain to me, even by this very message board, that the delusions in people's lives are well set in place and few can be pulled out of them now.

Sad to see!!!!

But the Lord warned them. They loved darkness more than light.

In His mercy He will give them one last chance in the tribulaton.

Everything is going as He said it would.

Talking to people in delusions is impossible!!!

Sally

friend (friend)

10-11-2005, 08:18 PM

Sally,

Can you tell us some examples of churches you feel have not fallen victim to cultic understandings?

turtle (turtle)

10-11-2005, 08:29 PM

Sally you say you left the apostilic church how many of its teachings did you give up and why?

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 08:30 PM

Mennonite
Luthern
Methodist
Apostolic Christian Churches
Amish
Baptist
Assembly of God

Like I said most of them now

Their cultic understanding are very very very subtle, it's called the falling away the bible said would happen. You know where the church falls so far away from what it started out to be that Jesus finally calls us to come out of them in Revelations.

There are some people that are understanding this now.

Sorry for the people that can't see it, but this is the way it is now.

Do some searching on the internet and you will find lots and lots of websites about it and find other people that say things like I say.

Sally

godchild (godchild)

10-11-2005, 08:40 PM

Sally, You have made your point, not once, but over and over again. We got it. Why don't you do something beneficial to change it?
If you're here to see your words in print, print them out and waste your time, not ours, reading the same things over and over again. Puleeeeze!

warr (warr)

10-11-2005, 08:51 PM

GODCHILD-I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER-

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 08:51 PM

Turtle,

I was raised in the Apostolic Christian Church and it may not be the church that you think it is. There are only about 300 of them in the country. They practice greeting one another with a holy kiss, men sit on one side of the church and women on the other, they go to church all day long and have lunch during it, women wear veils (some all week long), only men preached, they didn't want their people going to other churches, but they didn't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the gifts.

I know there is another Apostolic church that believes in the gifts.

My husband was not from the Apostolic church and for us to be married he would have had to join it. But he wouldn't so I left and went to his church.

I like many of the teachings that I grew up with and unlike people who left churches that didn't believe in the gifts. I didn't throw everything they did out the window. I think you and I were both raised in churches that didn't believe in the gifts, right? Turtle? At least that is what I thought I heard you say.

I went into the Mennonite church, which was a lot like the Apostolic Christian Church. I eventaully left the Mennonite church. I definitely think that both the Apostolic Christian Church and Mennonite churches are cults. They are just so so subtle in it. I had a terrible time leaving the Mennonite church, we had demons to fight and everything.

After leaving the Mennonite church we went to a little home church made up of people that had troubles in the Mennonite church. That was 22 years ago and we stayed there for 2 years. It ended up being the worst experience in a home church I've ever had. They had a doctrine about the bride of christ that said even if you were married you lived celibate. Strange!!!!

Then I tried going back to the Apostolic Christian Church because it really wasn't that bad, except they didn't believe in the gifts. I got sick and they wouldn't annoint me with oil. And it just ended up not working out at all. So we left there.

We went to a chasismatic church for just a little while, but a husband and wife preacher team got in a fight at the pulpit over who was going to preach and we left that place.

Then the home church movement started and I've been looking into that ever since.

We tried a couple of churches down here in Florida after we moved. But they are all so weird, I just can't handle them anymore.

If no one believes me about anything else, believe me when I tell you that there has been a falling away and these churches are nothing to go into anymore. I have testimonies about it on my message board that you can read about how I know this. I can give you the link.

I just had one person just ask me what churches I feel have cultic practices. So I listed some, but when I say all I pretty much mean all churches. And the really sad thing about it is that is really is a very serious thing now. And it has brought my attention to all the ways the churches really are wrong now.

The thing is that we have the internet and anyone who wants to search things out can. I'm not by myself anymore just saying these things. Go look at websites like www.theearlychurch.com (http://www.theearlychurch.com) and read for yourself. And look for others.

Sally

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 08:54 PM

Warr and Godchild,

I'm answering people's questions please. If I would be permitted to do that!!!!

Man a life, where my patience comes for putting up with you people, must be God!!!

Sally

warr (warr)

10-11-2005, 08:59 PM

we give you permission-maybe your patience comes from inner strength sally-have a little faith in yourself and love yourself then if you can love and understand God's word and people betterhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifwarr

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 09:02 PM

Warr,

I think I understand God's Word just fine. I could always be interested in learning more, probably like you could.

Sally

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 09:03 PM

Warr,

Whenever I go into a post that has "warr" posting lasting, I look out for a war, LOL.

Sally

nikita (nikita)

10-11-2005, 09:03 PM

Sally,
Don't believe everything you read on; the internet!
You talk about searching a matter out.
The best place to go is to Jesus.
Ask Jesus. Wait for the answers. Its all about relationship. Relationship with Jesus.
Pray for knowledge
Pray for Wisdom

Peace

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 09:10 PM

Nikita,

Sometimes searching is OK, the bible says seek and you shall find. I know there is a lot of really bad stuff of this internet. Sometimes I ever wonder why I'm on it?

I understand what you are saying.

But Nikita there are a lot of people now saying what I am saying, that is why we are going into home churches a lot of us.

Then there are the others that just think the churches are honky doory yet and their say their home church compliments the insitutional churches. Which is nothing but a big fat old lie.

You just have to know what you are doing and I've been doing it for 25 years now. Wisdom and experience can't be too bad!!!! I'm sure glad I got all that wisdom now.

Sally

turtle (turtle)

10-11-2005, 10:39 PM

Sally, My church believed in the gift of the Holy Spirit but didn't see it manifested in my church so in a since deny it in someways but not completely. My background I love because it taught me faith and to believe in God 's word, but I find myself in a pentecostal church maybe mainly because God wants me there to learn more about the gifts of His Spirit. Sound bible teaching is essential in the church.

franklin (franklin)

10-11-2005, 11:15 PM

By claiming that most churches are cults you are serving satan. satan wants people to believe that lie so that they will not seek God through fellowship. You are diluting the true meaning of a cult. A true disservice to the people who are in and want to get out. And to those who are outside and want to get those in, out.

That is what atheists and satanists want the world to believe, that all Christian churches are cults. You are validating their lies and propaganda. I don't think you have enough experience in mainstream churches to make that claim.

Most of the churches you attended are legalistic and not of God. Getting your information off the internet is not credible. The internet will give you whatever information you seek to prove your point. You can not prove these are the end times. So your premise is faulty.

So lighten up! Stop slandering the body of Christ. The majority of Christian churches are not cults. They are wonderful places for people to go and learn about Jesus. Your accusations are inadvertedly furthering the cause of satan. satan does not want people to go to good churches. And there are plenty of them out there.

God does not give us the spirit of fear. satan does. That is what your postings are based on, fear.

God loves you and will keep you safe. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

sally (sally)

10-11-2005, 11:19 PM

Turtle,

My church was the same way, said they believed but you never saw it nor did they teach about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. A church like that is pretty much a form of Godliness that denies the power of God, even when they say they "believe" in the gifts.

I'm getting off this board, it's really making me mad and I really don't care to be here at all.

A bunch of really stupid people on here that would love nothing to even make the greatest of all that God has done as nothing. I should know I have the gift of discerning of spirits. I feel a lot of things from this board and none of which are good at all. So I'm gone. If you want to contact me you can at omnicopy@aol.com and I can share more with you and give you my link to my message board. I wouldn't consider giving that link out in this message board. These people are really degenerate to the greatest degree. I wouldn't stay around here if I were you, I really wouldn't.

It is almost to the point that Jesus wondered it wouldn't get. There isn't hardly any real faith left now among those alive. Sad it had to get like this!!!! But they all had a choice. This message I share probably won't be albe to be shared much longer because people just absolutely hate it and make fun of it. It torments them. I think the way I talk is just a taste of what people are going to experience with the 2 prophets in the end time. Everyone always think God has to be so loving!!! He does to a certain point!

You can really contact me by email if you want to if you're not afraid I'll deceive you, but I'm not going to bank on hearing from you. I've been around too many years.

This board is no fun at all!!!!!!!

Sally

franklin (franklin)

10-11-2005, 11:48 PM

"There isn't hardly any real faith left now among those alive."

My faith in God is real, alive and well! Praise God!

common_sense (common_sense)

10-11-2005, 11:49 PM

This board is no fun at all!!!!!!!

Oh, but it will be again soon. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

(Message edited by common sense on October 11, 2005)

godchild (godchild)

10-12-2005, 12:32 AM

sally,
1 Peter 2:1-3 Therefore, laying aside all malice; all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and all evil speaking, as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
I first had other things to say to you, but the Lord told me to go to the Word, and this is the verse He led me to, to share with you.

turtle (turtle)

10-12-2005, 01:25 AM

Amen Godchild!

wyoming (wyoming)

10-12-2005, 06:59 PM

Franklin,

I think you and Sally need to cut each other some slack. She is not serving Satan. She is calling for absolute devotion and separation unto Christ. She is an idealistic reformer. She may even have a little paranoia mixed with her zeal.

I'm very anit-Charismatic/Pentcostalism for which she might view me as part of the enemy. I wish she could see the difference between true cults and the sin of sectarianism. All man-made denominations are man-made religion and all such division is condemned in scripture. Satan goes to Church. Division is what has grieved the Holy Spirit resulting in weak compromised Churches, opening them up to all kinds of crazy things. Most Christians are in the denominations. To have a revival that results in Christians meeting solely in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, would honor the Lord and be a bitter defeat to Satan.

--Alan.

(Message edited by Wyoming on October 12, 2005)

franklin (franklin)

10-13-2005, 06:08 AM

I do not believe she purposely intends to furthers satan's cause. But by stating that most churches are cults, that to me, slanders the body of Christ. That thinking could cause non-believers from seeking God and fellowship in good churches. That is what satan wants. She also shows a lack of understanding of what a cult is.

I could never trust a united Christian Church. We had that with the catholic church for centuries and saw the abuses there. I think there might be a purpose for having so many denominations.

Nemrod shot an arrow in the sky in defiance of God. So God scatter the worlds population, confused their language and divided the continents. He had a purpose in that also.

wyoming (wyoming)

10-13-2005, 06:57 PM

I'm quite sure that unity is not going to happen this side of Christ's return to rule and reign. However, unity is still the standard that we are to pursue. Unity doesn't come by superimposing a carnal program. If we are one with Christ, we will automatically be one with each other. Try to think outside the box. This is not carnal unity. If all the church steeples fell and the building programs and all the sacred cows we fight over would cease, and we had our eyes on the Lord instead of each other, Christianity would flourish. The reason for division is an unacceptable reason. The reason is sin. We are so arrogant in our striving to build an earthly church. We don't even know what the church is, even when each one of us is part of it. Isn't the fruit of the Holy Spirit our first order of business? It doesn't require anything physical. "Not a stone will be standing on this temple". "Thou are Petros" a living stone.

"Be still and know that I am God". Psalm 46:10

(Message edited by Wyoming on October 13, 2005)

godchild (godchild)

10-13-2005, 07:59 PM

Galatians 5:22-25 But the fruit of the Spirit is love; joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. (these things are evidence of the love the Lord wants us to share). Against such there is no law. Walk in the Spirit means to obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
Let us, as Christians, show unbelievers who come here, that we have these Christian attributes. At times I have also been guilty. This needs to change. Let's stop giving tit for tat. Instead, let's do what Paul says in Galatians 6:1-5 Brethren, if a man/woman is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted (to respond in kind). Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks him/herself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his/her own work, and then he will have rejoicing in him/herself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his/her own load.
I am going to make this commitment today. Will you join me? If any one of you read something I write that is a work of the flesh; uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentious, jealousy, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambition, dissensions, heresy, I want to be told immediately so that I can pray for restoration to His Will.

(Message edited by godchild on October 13, 2005)

franklin (franklin)

10-14-2005, 04:14 AM

"I am going to make this commitment today. Will you join me? If any one of you read something I write that is a work of the flesh; uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentious, jealousy, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambition, dissensions, heresy, I want to be told immediately so that I can pray for restoration to His Will."

I will make this commitment also.

Having said that I understand that there are times that we are called to use righteous anger.

There is only one type of anger that a Christian is permitted to use. And that is righteous anger.
All other reasons for anger are forbidden and wrong.

Christ is our role model. The only time Christ became angry was when he discovered that His Father's temple, under the Pharisees, was being defiled by the money changers. He hollered, called names at and whipped them. Made enemies that day. But it was for a righteous reason.

The only problem for humans is that we too many times steps outside of the boundaries of righteous anger. We have to make sure that we do not lose focus and attach unforgiveness in our heart from something of our past into the present purpose. That is when are out of bounds and need to be restored to God's will. That is why we are called humans. We are not God. Never will be.

When I see the temple of God defiled by anyone, it summons up righteous anger. No hollering, name calling or whipping allowed. That is reserved for the Son of God only.

But if I fail to stay in those bounds then I defeat my purpose and fail to serve God.

I try to walk daily in forgiveness towards myself, my family, my friends and coworkers. This way in discussions wherever, I do not drag something out of the past in to the present.

Unjustified anger is always attached to something that happened in someone's life prior. Grudges. They make us lose focus on the present.

Remember, on this earth if all Christians are in agreement with each other then only 1 of them is doing everyone elses' thinking.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first.

All of us are at different spiritual levels on our pilgrim's progress. None of us have God's total knowledge. We all have many different things we don't know, things wrong, and things right. The first will not have the same understanding as the last. Many of us will readily understand some of God's truth but have problems understanding other truths. We all learn at our own speed and our own times.

Part of the reason for our different individual paces is relative to the amount of baggage we are clinging to. Pride is very heavy. The tighter we cling, the slower we understand. When we let go we begin to learn, but only at our own pace. Not someone else's.

That is why we will never have a unified church before Christ returns. We must strive towards it. We are commanded to. But until Christ's return we are incapable of it. That is reality.

We will never agree on everything. To believe that is to believe that it is possible of a bible reader to have total understanding of it. That would mean that that person has the total knowledge of God. Our puny brains cannot comprehend, much less retain that knowledge.

So many modern churches have self-bestowed names that pretend to be the one and only church for the world. They are just another denomination, sect. They no more have everything right than the man on the moon.

I discern humanism creeping into the body of Christ, that says "we are holy, we are righteous.
We have it right. You are wrong (We are gods)." Man trying to elevate himself to the lofty heights reserved for God only.

I in no way have it all right. Never did. Never will. I ask God to give me discernment to recognize the truth as well as what is not true.

The temple of God, we should mainly concern ourselves, is the temple inside of us. Our relationship with God. If it's not right, then who are we to throw rocks at all other temples, spiritual and physical? But if we recognize wrong, then it should be corrected. We can only pray for God to give us wisdom in doing so.