Cults cults and more cults

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

What exactly is a cult?

Cult:
1. formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator *health cults*
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary.

[plow_deep]

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

For he that is not against us is on our part.

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

-----------------------------------------------

Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.

And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,

And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

---------------------------------------------
Seems simple enough

[trainedobserver]

This subject has of course been knocked about in here for some time. On http://www.factnet.org on the left hand side there is a link to FACTnets Guide to Cults.

Cult is just a word used to describe something. In the context of FACTnet they are:
*Destructive cults - Groups who destroy families in their process, etc., etc.

*Fundamentalism - "Fundamentalism is a deep and totalistic commitment to religious belief, involving a return to supposed fundamentals, away from doctrinal compromises with modern social and political life. The term is used to describe a wide range of political and religious phenomena, including Protestant denominations, Jewish groups, Buddhist movements, Hindu political parties and Islamic governments." see FACTnet cult guide.

*Mind control Mental coercion/torture - Although it can be argued that all cults employ mind control and mental coercion/torture some are particularly effective at it. Say for example Scientology and groups like Tony Alamo's.

In short I think it can be said that cults are unhealthy groups or organizations that use fear and threats of punishment as motivators to control practically ever aspect of someone's life. Especially their thoughts. Sometimes this is the threat of eternal punishment or in many cases just temporal punishment at cult leaders hands.

FACTnet is divided into several sections each dealing with a particular aspect of cults. Divided into Political, Religious, and Social categories and sub-categories it has a little something for everyone.

Although FACTnet has proven to be very useful for a great number of people who are in recovery or who are just attempting to get another perspective on their situation it has also provided a platform for cultists themselves. Often I believe this proves to be a good thing in that the true nature of the individual and their group becomes known by the cultist deliberately or unconsciously revealing himself. FACTnet is therefore polluted with things that are not facts. Fortunately the Internet provides a means of verifying much of what is said here. If claims are made about an organization or ideology they can be researched to see what they actually believe, say, or do rather than taking the word of detractors or promoters. That is why it is so critical thinking is so important in here. All anyone has to do to free themselves from any 'cult' is to learn to think for themselves properly.

Someone once said that yesterday's religions are today's myths and tomorrow's myths are today's religions. I have also heard it said one person's cult is another one's religion and visa versa. However, I think the terms as defined by FACTnet are what FACTnet intends to address as cults here.

[plow_deep]

Oh I understand what factnet is about and I agree with what they try to do.

On the otherhand I see a lot of factnet users that are way over zealous in what they consider cultic behaviour and use this forum as a basis of attack on anyones belief system that doesnt fit there own beliefs to a "T".

That, I find sad.

If I was a gambling man I would bet that just because I posted this message its almost a sure thing that a zealout will come crawling out of the woodwork any second.

Sometimes its pretty entertaining.

[trsrinheaven]

Their are different cults divided up into the particular religions and beliefs they follow.

One thing they all have in common.
They follow a man not God.

The Jim Jones followers drink poison kool aid at his command, or the UFO cult that committed suicide at the command of their leader. They all follow a man. They don't think for themselves. They don't question the leader etc. The leader has as much CONTROL as he can gain over the people.

They use fear and deceipt on the lack of knowledge of their followers to control them.
Theira are numerous tv preachers that tell people they are cursed if they don't give to them.
(They conveniently leave out the fact that the Bible also says "Jesus has redeemed all from the curse.." He took the curse and removed it.) Gal 3:13.

Jesus did say as does Genesis 1 there is a sowing and reaping to giving (Luke 6:38), but it is NEVER out of coersion, compulsion, fear or pressure but rather out of leading by the heart, with a cheerful and loving heart ONLY to GOOD managers and good stewardship works with big good results being produced. 2Cor9,Luke 16, Luke 6:38

Jesus put it this way. They are like sheep without a shepherd. A shepherd lays down his life for the sheep, not the other way around.

In a Christian cult, which are all based upon the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible, they elevate the teacher, preacher, pastor etc. and his particular teaching above what the scriptures actually say.
They do not acknowledge or seek the Holy Spirits guidance as Jesus told them do-"when the Holy Spirit comes He will lead you and guide you into all truth and show you things to come."

Romans 8:14
"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."

Jesus called a person to freedom.
Cults put people in bondage. Jesus called people to SEED GOD FIRST in everything. Mt 6:33

We are told to study for ourselves in order to be shown a workman worthy. We are told to Renew our minds on Gods word and not to be conformed to the worlds wide way but to be a living sacrifice presented to God NOT A DEAD MARTYR. Romans 12:1-2

Unfortunately people can be lazy, and in search of a person to spoon feed them all their answers.
Jesus teaches GOD DESIRES FOR ALL PEOPLE to have your own individual relationship with God ONE ON ONE.

This Holy Spirit will always agree with the Bible He wrote. Thus you can ask, trust in and seek the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding and to "lead and guide you into all truth."

For the Holy Spirit is all we have of God on the earth. He is also the conforter as Jesus called him as the manifested presence of God on the earth that can be in all who receive him and everywhere at all times.

So we are told to beware of false prophets, "we shall know them by their fruit."
Do not follow a person.
Even the Apostle Paul who wrote most of the new testament epistles said " follow me as I follow God."
Jesus said " when the blind follow the blind they both fall into the pit"
Instead learn the scriptures, including those about the Holy Spirit. . .so you can converse with the Holy Spirit and seek and receive his direction,guidance and wisdom. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit for help. "You receive not because you ask not" ..."For everyone who asks (according to Gods word and will) }receives.."

[fatherofaking]

i find this whole issue quite fascinating.

the whole world is acting like a rebellious teenager.

i have a 17yr old son who is very respectful and rarely a problem.

he is however beginning to show signs of wanting to be independant of the rules of his father.

it is not because he hates the rules, it is because he knows them well.
he has learned the lessons of life by the rules that have been impossed upon him all of his life.
he is ready to now use them to build a life of his own.

that is where i think we (the human race) are at now.
until we can take these rules of life and move on we will never grow up.
thinking for ourselves of course is a big part of that.

those that want to sit on the couch and play games with little interest in becoming independant are in for a rude awakening.

i have always told my son that if he does'nt learn the things i am teaching him now, he will have to learn them while out on the street begging for a handout.

the world has a way of teaching us the lessons we need to learn.
it is up to us whether we want to learn them the hard way or not.
going through the same things over and over again.

cults are a haven for people who would rather have someone think for them.
mommy and daddy are replaced by somone else.
there is a sense of freedom in that for some and totalitarianism for others.

in the coming times everyone will have to grow up.
it is time we moved on as a human race.
we know the rules.
we just need to use them to live our life.
a leap of faith must be taken.
it is time we made the evolutionary leap into our next phase of existance.

the form (rules) must be shed to reveal the substance (character).

[trainedobserver]

foak,

Wow, excellent post. My son, although equipped with the rules and much of the same warnings choose to go his own way for a short time. Afterwards, when he had 'come around' he explained that there were just some things he had to 'learn for himself' the hard way. He regrets not taking my advise now and finds himself trapped in two jobs with a growing family. I love my kids and I let them go to work out there own lives and make their mistakes when they turned 18. Mostly for self preservation I think. I mean dealing with three teenagers at once can drive you crazy. Someday they'll let me out of this padded cell.

The cult/family proxy issue has been written about a good deal. You are right on there as well.

[pro610]

FOF
"in the coming times everyone will have to grow up.
it is time we moved on as a human race.
we know the rules.
we just need to use them to live our life.
a leap of faith must be taken.
it is time we made the evolutionary leap into our next phase of existance.
the form (rules) must be shed to reveal the substance (character).""

This sounds sort of like Communism.
looks good on paper but in reality man is not disciplined to adhere to equality.

The idea that man can make the world a better place by removing religion has been tried before.
It always results in barbarism.

This concept that man is the pinnacle of knowledge and morals does not work .
Man still continues to war, man still is subject to the elements, that man is still having the same problems that is wrote about in the Torah.

Nothing has changed, despite the advance of modern science. Man is still subject to sin, no matter how much people deny this. And while atheists will deny the existence of what is sin, they cannot deny the effects of it in the world, the harm it causes. You'd think that by now, if everything revolved around Darwinianism, that we'd have eliminated this by now...

Sad to say,but we are now living in a world that that is closer to your solution then it is to living a virtuous lifestyle.

This will lead to our end because of pride and the quest for power of modern man.

Pride Puffs up but Love builds up.

I wish you well

[trainedobserver]

Pardon me for butting in.

"This sounds sort of like Communism. "

OMFG. What a joke. You cannot be serious. Which comic book version of communism would that be I wonder? Geesh.

"the form (rules) must be shed to reveal the substance (character)."
"... a world that that is closer to your solution then it is to living a virtuous lifestyle. "

Just what do you think he means by character? For Pete's sake man it is about as simple as it gets. It's called ... wait for it ... personal responsibility. That is a virtuous lifestyle. A healthy, self-reliant, and responsible person is more inclined to live a virtuous lifestyle than one who is not. Would you not agree?

"
This concept that man is the pinnacle of knowledge and morals does not work . "

So we should take our morals from a being that orders genocide and infanticide to make a real estate deal? Get out! Human beings being more concerned with the survival of their species and their world is certainly a more noble and honorable enterprise than taking queues from ancient tribal gods who find no problem with killing women and children and taking their property. Murder and theft are real low on my list of acceptable behavior. Yahweh is an immoral and 'inhuman' tyrant in the Bible. I no longer see how to reconcile those facts therefore making belief in him as a 'loving god' impossible.

The 'love' motif of Christianity is a misrepresentation of what the Bible says about god. Fred Phelps is probably closer to being 'scriptural' than many of you. He recognizes that calling for peoples death is motivated by hate. However he worships hate and a hateful god. Its freaking amazing. Its like a mirror world or something.

[pro610]

trained
LOL!

You love to hear yourself think and talk.

Is there a room large enough for you to squeeze your large brain into it?

Why have you not been discovered and been selected for a speech tour yet since you know how to fix the problems of the world?

Grow up and get over yourself!

Don,t expect a response from me.

Go fourth and Love!

[fatherofaking]

Pardon me for butting in.

sometimes i wish you would do it more often.

pro610,

you completely misunderstood my point.
i think that is because you are unfamiliar with what i believe.
nothing more.
i am not advocating that religion be eliminated.
i am sure that my friend TO would disagree with that idea but that is ok.

i think he understands things that are being taught in those books better than many on this message board, even if he doesn't see them in the books.

i think the truth of what these holy books are teaching is being obscurred by the current religious environment.

when the truth of this comes out and more people learn what they are really teaching, we will then be able to move on to our next stage of evolution.

[trainedobserver]

pro610,

Whatever. Your's is a typical post by someone who can't make a real counter argument. Followed of course by some ambiguous beatitude.

What is a cult?
The worship of Isis and her son Horus was a rival to Christianity. When Constantine edited the cannon and united the empire under one religion he absorbed the temples and practices of the others. The worship of Mary is simply an alteration of the worship of Isis. Many rituals and practices like communion come from preexisting cults that the Emperor merged into one. Also, many cults were destroyed because they differed from the official state version. Christianity is in fact a conglomeration of preexisting beliefs and rituals of those cults Constantine favored. When you venerate Mary, you are worshiping a version of Isis, etc., etc.

Go fourth and think for yourself.

[trainedobserver]

"even if he doesn't see them in the books"

I do see them in the sacred texts, however I now understand it is of human origin. That perspective provides the ability to see the wisdom in all of them. A 'believer' in one over another cannot realistically do this can they? Of course it also allows you to see the absurdity in them and the arguments they produce. I mean seriously, the 'who is Cain's father' discussion is prime example of vain and useless conversation prohibited by the text they are arguing about. Think about that for a minute.



Go fourth and find out for yourselves.

[pro610]

fof
"i think the truth of what these holy books are teaching is being obscurred by the current religious environment"

Dear friend,
I agree with you on this somewhat.

It is the religious fundamentalist that causes Christians to look foolish.

Many good people are effected by some of these people,s actions and it draws them away from Christianity.
Therefor this fundamentalist viewpoint is NOT grounded in love

Christianity is NOT a religion of a book-it is religion of a man-Jesus Christ.

I doubt you or anyone else would have a problem if we tried to love others like Christ loved. Right?
Would you not agree that the world would be better if we loved so much as to lay down our lives for the good of others.

Christianity is NOT always at odds with Science.
It is at odds with Science on issues of morality- as it should be.

[fatherofaking]

i am an active part of that discussion.

the meaning inherent in a metaphor can be elusive.

they have to be read with a heart for change.
when they are approached for any other purpose thier meaning is obscured.
the evidence for that is everywhere.

check this out.
the gambling industry has found a way to make money on the global warming issue and endtimes prophecy.
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=13b1a438-e84f-4dc5-bdae-2f96abfcae86

[trainedobserver]

"I doubt you or anyone else would have a problem if we tried to love others like Christ loved. Right?"

I beg to differ. Your picture of Jesus is not biblical.

Christ advocated abandonment of family to follow him. This is a practice of modern day cults.

Christ didn't love us enough to address the immorality of slavery, child abuse, or any real human issue like those did he? We can do better than that. Slavery should be abhorred and not accepted for any reason.

He openly attempted that he spoke in parables to keep the truth from being revealed. That is rather underhanded.

Christ advocated human sacrifice to appease an angry god. Human sacrifice is vile.

I could go on with more examples but I know for certain the misrepresentation of Jesus has been covered somewhere in here.

Global warming is nothing but a money-making money-wasting machine. Wow, did our rovers make Mars heat up like it has? Or could it be the documented increase in solar activity? Animals make carbon dioxide and plants use that to make oxygen. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant for Pete's sake it is part of the cycle of life. This global warming he-jazz is a scam with a purpose and the purpose is to extract money in the form of carbon taxes and other forms of 'determent'.

[fatherofaking]

so you think that al gore has been deceiving people for 7yrs?

you think he is part of a grand conspiricy to generate more tax money?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

May I but in?

It seems to me that several are on the right track. But they are not on the right train! Someone said a cult worships a man. It is easy to show the Roman Church worships the pope. Does that make the Roman religion a cult? Someone else suggested you can validate a post by searching the internet. Are you up to a challenge? Find out what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (lds.org?) believes about Jesus Christ. Ask the same question of the Church of God. Some on this board quote Wikipedia as authoritative when, in fact, it is not even a legitimate source of information.

Someone else suggested we love as Jesus loved! Jesus Christ was the ultimate country fried redneck! Jesus Christ was the biggest racist to ever live. What you have never read the Bible? Jesus Christ sent the disciples out two by two, telling them do not go among the gentiles. Jesus went on to say “I came to the lost tribe of Israel” and refused the gentile. Did someone mention cursing? Jesus Christ cursed like a drunken sailor on Saturday night. What you never read Matthew chapter 23? Did someone mention violence? Hot-tempered, savage, bloodthirsty, malicious, rancorous, vehement, vicious sounds like Jesus to me. What you never read the story of the money-changers? Did someone say divisive? Jesus said I came to divide the father against the son, the mother against the daughter. What you never read Luke chapter 12? It is easy to spot those who have never read the Bible.

On that thought, many of us agree. A cult is a controlling group and/or charismatic leader. A cult controls what its members see, hear and read. A cult’s followers are told what to think, how to act, what to say. A cult is grossly aberrant. But it goes beyond just being wrong. A cult may claim to worship Jesus Christ for example, but hold that Jesus Christ is someone else. A cult likes to use terms, phrases, or doctrines with familiar names but have truly bizarre meanings. A cult tends to exclude all outsiders. Cults are the real insiders. Many religions represented here on this board claim to be the church you read about in the New Testament, the exclusive body of Christ, the church founded by the Apostle Peter, etc. What else can you add?

I did not read what factnet has to say on the subject, perhaps I should. I hope you add more.

[pro610]

“”When Constantine edited the cannon and united the empire under one religion he absorbed the temples and practices of the others. The worship of Mary is simply an alteration of the worship of Isis. Many rituals and practices like communion come from preexisting cults that the Emperor merged into one. Also, many cults were destroyed because they differed from the official state version. Christianity is in fact a conglomeration of preexisting beliefs and rituals of those cults Constantine favored. When you venerate Mary, you are worshiping a version of Isis, etc., etc””

Hogwash! An outright lie

One thing is for sure,you don,t have much knowledge in the realm of Christian History and you must have been one of those fundamentalists Christians when you were one.

Constantine legalized Christianity.Thats ALL!
This allowed the council of nicea to take place without persecution,thus saving the lives of many

Constantine was an Arian who denied the divinity of Christ,he was branded as a heretic by the church and was not allowed to be involved in decisions because the council of nicea was to also reject arianism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

Constantine had no part in the decision making. of dogma. NONE!

Veneration of Mary,the Divinity of Christ,the liturgy were already widely know as truth way before the Council of Nicea

Here are a few examples-there are tons more

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

Christ,s Divinity

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).

“[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).

Any source you can come up with to say otherwise is not reliable.

I,m sure you will come up with more nonsense from Dan Brown and other charltons

[trainedobserver]

"so you think that al gore has been deceiving people for 7yrs? you think he is part of a grand conspiricy to generate more tax money?"


Well 'grand conspiracy' doesn't quite fit the situation but I think we might could say that. A conspiracy is something committed by two or more people, so yeah, he's getting a lot of help.

The grim reality is that there is no difference between the Democratic Party and the GOP. They are like two rival mobs who exchange members on a regular basis. They are all ultimately controlled by the folks who control the world's money. Why else do you think Gore unnecessarily conceded to Bush in an obvious case of vote tampering? Why the promotion of unreasonable hate for one party over another when the members are interchangeable? Distraction and control.

Global warming is certainly happening but the cause or cure certainly isn't Human Beings. Its a distraction made with the left hand while the right hand is up to no good.

If the other inner planets are heating up what does that tell us? Could it have something to do with our common source of heat and cosmic rays displaying increased activity? The evidence is there.

The sun and the earth are going through their life cycles. Our sun will eventually expand and destroy the earth before it finally becomes a white dwarf. Our weather will naturally change during this process. It won't be for some time though. (ah-hem, millions of years)

Ultimately to survive as a race, human beings have to leave the Earth and colonize other worlds we find suitable or make for ourselves. This would be my primary project for the countries of the world to undertake to unify the Earth if I were king for a day. The necessary research would find solutions to many current day problems just as the space program always has.

However, I've taken the fatalistic position that we will face ultimate extinction through uncontrollable natural disaster and not by our own hand. The odds just seemed to be stacked in that way.

Humans causing the planet to heat up by producing too much carbon dioxide in naturally occurring processes like ...breathing ...is stinky cha-cha. Ha-ha, cha-cha produces butane too. That was unintentional. That line of thinking seems to cause you to arrive at one conclusion. Too many people. Do you think the elite leaders of the world are going to allow us to mess up 'their' world?

Look up the Georgia Guide stones. Their calculated optimum number seems to be 500,000,000 people. Doesn't seem like a lot does it? They are going to come up with some method to thin the herd.

Maybe if they really believed in it themselves they would shut their mouths and save the world from all of that hot carbon dioxide coming out of there.

All that said, in the end, I've taken the fatalistic position that we will face ultimate extinction through uncontrollable natural disaster and not by our own hand. The odds just seemed to be stacked in that way. The freaking universe is out to kill us as evidenced by all the rocks it throws at us (meteors) and death rays it shoots our way (cosmic rays).

(Message edited by trainedobserver on April 16, 2007)

[fatherofaking]

I,m sure you will come up with more nonsense from Dan Brown and other charltons

what kind of a remark is that?

the information about constantine and christianity is well documented.

quoting catholic sources to prove your point that christianity is legitimate is typical of a christian.

[trainedobserver]

"Are you up to a challenge?"

I did that before there was an Internet. I researched major religious and sects and some minor ones for the sole purpose of determining what they said about Jesus. They all pretty much contradict each other in unresolvable ways.

And no, I don't recommend believing everything you read on the Internet or using it as a sole research tool. That's why we have libraries and bookstores and the books of friends for.


"Hogwash! An outright lie"

Would you believe the evidence if it were shown to you?

"Constantine legalized Christianity.Thats ALL! "

Really? He didn't absorb the pagan temples, priests, and rituals into it? The Isis / Mary thing is just a demonic plot? Seriously man, a whole bunch of historians must be wrong. Maybe you should read something that isn't published or promoted by the church.

"Any source you can come up with to say otherwise is not reliable."

Well of course you would say that! Ha! Ha!

And for the record I've never read a paragraph that Brown has written.

So ... do you still think that TV preachers are raising the dead?

(Message edited by trainedobserver on April 16, 2007)

[fatherofaking]

And for the record I've never read a paragraph that Brown has written.

that's to bad.
i found the ones i read to be entertaining.

So ... do you still think that TV preachers are raising the dead?

are you implying that they are not raising people from the dead?

i guess i should cancel my meeting with ted.

[pro610]

TO

Do you just make up things as you go?

I often have wondered just how many multiple personalities are in that head of yours after observing the things you write.

Your mind is dark to the point of demonic.

How many different personalities are in there Trainedobserver?

[pro610]

"the information about constantine and christianity is well documented"

No its not!
All you can post is someone,s opinion.

I can quote Early Christian writings and show typology of Scripture of the Old and New Testament that proves otherwise.

You can only show some so- called scholar,s opinion based on guesswork with no facts or actual writings from anyone other than heretics.

I have debated this for years,there is nothing new you can show me

[fatherofaking]

the typology of the catholic church proves nothing.
everyone that does not accept the pope as infallable is a heritic to you.

that explains the reason why you accept nothing but church writings as proof.

the circular reasoning keeps you from having to confront the truth.
i have discussions with people like you all the time.

bring on pro.
i'm up for it.

[pro610]

fof
Like it or not ,all you can show are opinions on Constantine and not actual writings to support your view.

Constantine was powerful.

Ask yourself why he had NO influence on the Church,s belief of Divinity of Christ since its clearly documented that he denied Christ,s Divinity?

Go play with the serpent seed people.
You did a good job on that.

[fatherofaking]

this is exactly what i expected from you pro.

your history here is clear.

you voice your opinion and then refuse to debate anyone.
it is your loss.

you will continue to be a coward unless you are willing to look at the truth.
your religion is full of error and outright lies.

[pro610]

FOF
Show writings from the times(NOT OPINIONS) and back it up.

Really,I,m not afraid to show you you,re in error

I was not even a Catholic for over 20 years.

[fatherofaking]

here is some material from national geographic for you to consider.

if you have a problem with thier sources take it up with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0MfqO3TvKQ

[pro610]

fof,
I have been through all of this before.

It should not surprise anyone that there are certain similarities to Christianity

What should be understood is that the devil always tries and mimic God and pull a bait and switch in order to try and trick people away from the creator and turn it into worshiping what God has created(usually self worship) throughout mans history.

I was involved in research on the New Age movement for years and I see where all these old ancient religions still invade Christian churches today.

I have seen it all-Mithraism,Arianism,Isis, horus
Ra,druidism,appolonis,Simon Magus,freemasonry,
etc...
I could go on and on.

Much of this stuff is in the gnostic gospels
All of it is from satan who disguises himself as an angel of light.

I have addressed many of these ancient religion similarities on the sun-god Baal section of factnet and other sections and threads started by “Called’(johnny)

I suggest you review them

I,m not going to go over and over this,however I will try and give you information on any questions you may have.

I suggest you join the Free Republic .
It is a much better place to transfer information and there are many well educated people there


I wish you a Nice Day!

[trainedobserver]

pro610,

Are you unable or unwilling to research this for yourself beyond what the church spoon feeds you?

And by the way, Multiple Personality Disorder has been proven to be non-existent. It's something else entirely. Although I doubt you'll believe that either. Also, I haven't forgotten who you are and what you will stoop to.

"...with no facts or actual writings from anyone other than heretics."

Well how convenient for you! They are heretics! Of course we can't take their research seriously!

"the circular reasoning keeps you from having to confront the truth. "

Logical fallacies and how to think straight aren't something that pro610 has exhibited an interest in in the past. "Circular reasoning" is probably a meaningless and possibly heretical term for him/her/whatever.

"Show writings from the times(NOT OPINIONS) and back it up."

Did you not catch the little point about contradictory texts being systematically destroyed?! Your predecessors decided what you would believe and what you would not have a chance to believe. Are you not aware of that? Isn't that rather significant information?

"It should not surprise anyone that there are certain similarities to Christianity"

'Certain similarities' ... now that is denial for you.

"What should be understood is that the devil always tries and mimic God and pull a bait and switch in order to try and trick people away from the creator and turn it into worshiping what God has created(usually self worship) throughout mans history. "

That is absolutely moronic. As I've said before, Originals occur first, Copies come after. You will find that to be the case every time. To say this isn't so for Christianity is called 'special pleading', a logical fallacy I'm sure you have no interest in learning about so that you can avoid it. It is a fact that Christianity is chock full of previous pagan religious customs and doctrine. The devil did not go back in time or foresee the future or anything else of that nature. It is plainly a last ditch attempt to justify the unjustifiable. Originals always come first Pro610. Always.

"are many well educated people there"

Meaning they don't read the writings of heretics?

"I wish you a Nice Day!"

Bull****.

[fatherofaking]

this is your typical tactics once again.

you make statements that you have no intentions of even trying to backup.

i have no questions for you pro.
i never did.
you come to this thread make statments that you are unable to back up and then run away.

it is the same story with you everywhere you go.
the good thing is that you are predictable.
just like i said you would, you are running away without backing up anything.

suggesting that i review another thread is just your way of saying that i am not worth your time.

i have no questions about these things that i cannot answer for myself.
the next time you call something hogwash, i would suggest backing it up with something.
otherwise, you just make yourself look like a fool.

[trainedobserver]

"...different cults divided up into the particular religions and beliefs they follow.
One thing they all have in common.
They follow a man not God."

This is good example of 'double-think', believing two contradictory ideas at the same time.

You insist that you follow god but you worship a god-man yourself. Jesus was a man, if he existed at all. All of the Christian leaders are men or women, not gods.

To refuse to apply the same criteria to _your_ religion that you apply to others is a bit dodgey don't you think?

(Message edited by trainedobserver on April 17, 2007)

[pro610]

Trained and FOF
"Originals occur first, Copies come after. You will find that to be the case every time."

You fail to recognize that satan was one of God,s most powerful angels with knowledge of God,s plan for man.

Also, there was never a time when Christ did not exist.(The Trinity)
God the Father is the uncreated Creator. Within the Divine Procession, He is called Father because He is not produced or generated. The Father generates or begats the Son. What is important to realize is that there was never a time when God the Son did not exist. The Father thinks of Himself in His divine Mind and produces the Son, a perfect image of the Father in every way. The Son is called the Thought or Wisdom of the Father. The Father and Son love each other so greatly that they generate or produce the Holy Spirit. Again, there was never a time when God the Spirit did not exist. He is the Will of the Father and the Son. The Will follows Knowledge, which produces Love. This Love is the fruit of the Divine Procession. And we are called to share in this Love called God.

Lastly you fail to understand that God operates outside of time....
God sees our creation, birth, response to His Spirit, our death, and union with Him in heaven (if of the elect) as one event. How can God NOT see our response "before" we choose? It's all one event.
Man does not choose God first. To us, He takes the initiative. But it is perfectly feasible to see that He would "see" our response as part of His initiative. There is not a time that is not accessible to God all at once. God doesn't think about us, then create us, then watch us being born, then ensure that we receive the graces proper to the elect in His point of view. That is from our vantage point, since we are in time. To God, all of the above is done simultaneously, since there He is beyond Time.

The devil tries to predict certain things, God never predicts,He sees everything in time as one event - the Creation to the Final end seen in the blink of an eye...What's to predict? His decisions are "based" on an event that is equally present to His view!
God knows what man will choose because He sees it all at once. His command to Noah and the end of the flood are all one event to God. There is NO TIME that binds God. It is all available to Him.

Perhaps you will reflect on what is written here.

[fatherofaking]

I'll never forget the magical moment one evening when Arthur, in a mood of great intensity, explained to me his understanding of the "Virgin Birth" in Christianity and in other mythological traditions. Christ could only have been born from a virgin he said, because it is incumbent upon each of us to give birth to the highest and best within ourselves. This, more than anything else, he told me was the meaning of his work. As he looked intently into my eyes that evening, I saw him as the midwife of my own soul. And for that, I will be eternally grateful.
http://www.intuition.org/Young.htm

[trainedobserver]

"You fail to recognize that satan was one of God,s most powerful angels with knowledge of God,s plan for man. "

Oh please. There is no evidence that such a creature exists. You might as well have said someone used H.G. Wells timemachine to do it.

"Perhaps you will reflect on what is written here."

Yeah. You justify your belief using information supplied by your religion.

You believe in a devil who counterfeited Christianity before it even existed.

You believe things can be copied before they exist. However, you will never find an example of an original following a copy. It is an impossibility.

Applying Occam's Razor (look it up yourself) the most probable answer is that Christianity used elements of those preexisting pagan religions and it was not a supernatural being counterfitting Christianity before it even existed because he 'knew the plan' as an ex-arch angel and god's former right hand man.

[fatherofaking]

take a closer look at these ancient myths TO.

you say that an original cannot follow a copy.

do you concede then that those that came before would have the same or similar message?

the names of course can be attributed to the different languages and cultures.

[yaakov2]

Question: Which religion believes in a deity who:

Born on December 25

Born of a Virgin

Divinely inspired and became a deity and later worshipped

Had visions and revelations and taught ethics

Went to school as a child and his teachers were surprised at his knowledge

Performed great miracles and restored life to a dead person

Birth announced by a star and a Trinity concept and died a violent death

Descended into Hades and rose from the Dead

Was expected to return in the “later days”

Answer: Mitraic worship, Zoroaster, Tammuz, Adonis, Krishna, Osiris, Isis, Dionysus-Bacchus, and Christianity.

Mithras 3,000 BC - a dying, resurrected savior
Dionysus is mentioned in Linear B tablets from roughly 1,200 BC.
Look up the rest. They are all pre-jesus.

[yaakov2]

Question: Which religion believes in a deity who:

Born on December 25

Born of a Virgin

Divinely inspired and became a deity and later worshipped

Had visions and revelations and taught ethics

Went to school as a child and his teachers were surprised at his knowledge

Performed great miracles and restored life to a dead person

Birth announced by a star and a Trinity concept and died a violent death

Descended into Hades and rose from the Dead

Was expected to return in the “later days”

Answer: Mitraic worship, Zoroaster, Tammuz, Adonis, Krishna, Osiris, Isis, Dionysus-Bacchus, and Christianity.

Mithras 3,000 BC - a dying, resurrected savior
Dionysus is mentioned in Linear B tablets from roughly 1,200 BC.
Look up the rest. They are all pre-jesus.

[yaakov2]

Question: Which religion believes in a deity who:

Born on December 25

Born of a Virgin

Divinely inspired and became a deity and later worshipped

Had visions and revelations and taught ethics

Went to school as a child and his teachers were surprised at his knowledge

Performed great miracles and restored life to a dead person

Birth announced by a star and a Trinity concept and died a violent death

Descended into Hades and rose from the Dead

Was expected to return in the “later days”

Answer: Mitraic worship, Zoroaster, Tammuz, Adonis, Krishna, Osiris, Isis, Dionysus-Bacchus, and Christianity.

Mithras 3,000 BC - a dying, resurrected savior
Dionysus is mentioned in Linear B tablets from roughly 1,200 BC.
Look up the rest. They are all pre-jesus.

[pro610]

Question; Who is your Messiah although you reject Him.
He is Greater than Moses

Typology of Moses and Jesus

Moses
An evil king/Pharaoh tried to kill him as a baby: Exodus 1:22
Jesus
King Herod tried to kill baby Jesus: Matthew 2:16

Moses
He was hidden from the evil king/Pharaoh: Exodus 2:2
Jesus
An angel said to hide the child from the evil King Herod: Matthew 2:13

Moses
Moses was sent into Egypt to preserve his life: Exodus 2:3-4

Jesus
Jesus was taken into Egypt to preserve His life: Matthew 2:13-15

Moses
He was saved by women: his mother: Exodus 2:3; Miriam 2:4; Pharaoh's daughter 2:5-10
Jesus
Saved and helped by His mother, Mary: Matthew 2:14

Moses
Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses: Exodus 2:10
Jesus
Joseph adopted Jesus: Matthew 1:25

Moses
Moses became a prince of Egypt: Exodus 2:10
Jesus
Jesus is the Prince of Peace: Isaiah 9:5; Matthew 28:18; Luke 2:14

Moses
Long period of silence from childhood to adulthood
Jesus
Long period of silence from childhood to adulthood

Moses
Moses had a secret identity
Jesus
Messianic secret = Jesus the Son of God

Moses
He tried to save a Hebrew kinsman: Exodus 2:11-12
Jesus
Jesus came to save His Hebrew kinsman first: Mark 7:26-28

Moses
Went from being a prince to a pauper: Exodus 2:15-19
Jesus
Went from being God to being man: John 1:1-3; Mark 6:3

Moses
Saved women at a well: Exodus 2:15-19
Jesus
Saved a woman at a well: John chapter 4

Moses
Became a shepherd: Exodus 3:1
Jesus
He is the Good Shepherd: John 10:11

Moses
Moses' mission was to redeem Israel from slavery to Egypt
Jesus
Jesus' mission is to redeem mankind from slavery to sin

Moses
Moses was loved and supported in his ministry by his sister Miriam [in Hebrew, Miryam]
Jesus
Jesus was loved and supported in his ministry by His mother Mary [in Hebrew, Miryam]

Moses
He was often rejected by his own people
Jesus
Jesus was often rejected by His own people

Moses
Moses will give God's law on the mountain of Sinai: Exodus 20:1-31:18; 34:1-35
Jesus
Jesus will give the new law from the Mt. of Beatitudes: Matthew chapter 5

Moses
Moses spent 40 days fasting on the mountain: 24:18;34:28
Jesus
Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the desert wilderness: Matthew 4:2

Moses
Moses performs signs/ miracles
Jesus
Jesus performs signs/miracles

Moses
Moses offered his life for the salvation of his people after the sin of the Golden Calf: Exodus 32:33-33
Jesus
Jesus offered His life for the salvation of the world: Isaiah 53:12; Romans 5:12; 6:10; 2 Corinthians 5:15-21; Colossians 1:19-20; 2:14-15; 1 John 1:7; 2:2; etc.

Moses
Moses is the prophet of the Old Covenant Church
Jesus
Jesus is the prophet, priest, and King of a New and everlasting Covenant = the universal Catholic Church [note catholic means universal]

[pro610]

More Typology

Question; General Prophecies Concerning the Coming of Jesus

Gen. 49:10; Mic. 5:2 - a kingdom and ruler of Israel shall come from Judah - Mattt. 1:1-2, Luke 3:23,33 - Jesus is from the line of Judah.

Deut. 18:18 - He will be raised up as a prophet - Matt. 21:11, Luke 7:16; John 6:14; 7:40 - Jesus is identified as this prophet.

Psalm 2:6 - He will be a King - Matt. 21:5; John 18:36-37 - Jesus is this King.

Psalm 2:7 - you are my Son, today I have begotten you - Matt. 3:17; Acts 13:33 - God the Father said this about Jesus the Son.

Psalm 69:4; Isaiah 49:7 - He will be hated without a cause - John 15:25 - Jesus was hated without a cause.

Psalm 69:9 - zeal for thy house has consumed me - John 2:16-17 - zeal consumed Jesus as He drove out the traders.

Psalm 78:2 - He will speak in parables - Matt. 13:34-35 - Jesus spoke in parables.

Psalm 110:1; Jer. 23:6 - He will be called Lord - Matt. 22:43-45; Luke 2:11; Heb. 1:10 - Jesus is called Lord by the Lord.

Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 8:14; 28:16 - He will be the stone rejected by the builders - Acts 4:10-11; Rom. 9:32-33; 1 Peter 2:7-8 - Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders.

Psalm 118:26; Hag.2:7-9; Mal. 3:1 - He will come to the Temple - Matt. 21:12; John 2:13-17 - Jesus so came to the Temple.

Psalm 132:11; Jer. 23:5 - He, the king, shall come from the House of David - Matt. 1:1; Luke 3:23,31 - Jesus is the son of David.

Isaiah 6:9-10 - they hear but do not understand and see but do not perceive - Matt. 13:14-15; John 12:38-41 - this is why Jesus used parables.

Isaiah 7:14 - He will be born of a young virgin woman - Matt. 1:18, 24-25; Luke 1:26-35 - Jesus was born of the young virgin Mary.

Isaiah 9:1 - His ministry will make Galilee glorious - Matt 4:12-17 - Jesus begins His ministry in Galilee.

Isaiah 9:6 - a woman shall bear a son called Emmanuel ("God is with us") - Luke 1:35 - Jesus is this one, the Son of God.

Isaiah 11:2 - the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him - Matt. 3:16-17 - the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus like a dove.

Isaiah 32:3-4; 35:5-6- His ministry will include miracles curing the blind, deaf, lame and dumb - Matt. 9:32-35 - Jesus so cured the blind, deaf, lame and dumb.

Isaiah 33:22 - He will be a judge - John 5:30 - Jesus is the judge who judges justly.

Isaiah 40:3; Mal. 3:1 - He will be preceded by a messenger - Mat. 3:1-3; 11:10; Luke 1:17; John 1:23 - Jesus was so preceded (by Saint John the Baptist).

Isaiah 53:3 - He will be rejected by His people - John 1:11; 7:5 - Jesus was rejected by His own people.

Isaiah 61:1-2 - the Spirit of the Lord is upon Him - Luke 4:21 - Jesus says that He has fulfilled this prophecy.

Zech. 9:9 - He will triumphantly enter Jerusalem on an <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> - Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:35-38; John 12:14-17 - Jesus so entered Jerusalem.

Mic. 5:2 - Israel's ruler shall come from Bethlehem - Matt. 2:1,4-8; Luke 2:4-7 - Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

taken from www.scripturecatholc

[trainedobserver]

"do you concede then that those that came before would have the same or similar message? "

I'm not surprised that they all say similar things. However, you certainly cannot say that Mithras and Christ taught the same message even though the framing story is virtually the same. The framing story of the dieing and rising god isn't a message in and of itself. It is the god-man's claim to be an authority from which he teaches his message. For example, Mithras was a god of warriors not peace loving men.

They also say a great deal of contradictory things. However, if you will note, many if not all claim an exclusive license on "The Truth" with "There is no way to the father but through the son." rhetoric.

As far as ancient myths go you have the same problem with them as you do with the Christian texts, the acceptance of some and destroying of other various texts to suit someone. The victors write the history. The losers history goes in the trash heap.

yaakov

The pagan christ problem is just flatly denied by anyone I've confronted with it. You get the terribly dishonest "the devil did it" answer a lot but most of the time people have never heard of it.

Like I've said, most people take the god of their families with nary a thought about the incredible absurdity of doing such a thing without examining it properly and simply run with it convinced of their good fortune to be born into 'The Truth.'

It's like buying a antique, taking loving care of it, considering it a precious heirloom and then finding out on the Antique Roadshow that it is a cheap copy, a fake, something that pretends to be something it is not and saying "Oh, but it is still worth the $5000 I paid for it because I have loved it and cared for it, and it holds my tea-set so well.

[pro610]

Last One on Typology
MESSIANIC PROPHECIES FULFILLED BY JESUS CHRIST Death and Resurrection

Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.

Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.

Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.

Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.

Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus' hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.

Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus' garments among them.

Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus' garments.

Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.

Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus' bones were broken.

Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.

Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.

Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.


Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.

Isaiah 53:7 - He will remain silent before His accusers - Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 - Jesus remained silent before His accusers.

Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 - the anointed one shall be cut off and die - Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 - Jesus the Messiah died.


Isaiah 53:12 - He will make intercession for the transgressors - Luke 23:34,43 - Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.

Amos 8:9 - God will darken the earth at noon - Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 - there was darkness at noon at Jesus' crucifixion and death.

Jonah 1:17 - three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus' death and rising on the third day.

Mic. 1:8 - He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked - John 19:23-24 - Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.

Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matt. 26:15 - Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.

Zech. 11:13 - the pieces of silver are cast into God's house - Matt. 27:5 - Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.

Zech. 12:10 - His side will be pierced - John 19:34, 37 - Jesus' side was pierced.

Zech. 13:7 - He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter - Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 - Jesus' disciples forsook Him and scattered.

Perhaps you can show this to your Rabbi to see what he thinks?

[fatherofaking]

this is one of those moments when you wish you had a magic wand or something that would open someones eyes.

i am in no way offended by your beliefs pro610.

i am responding to you for your benifit.
i have no ulterior motive.

i no longer have a need to be here.
my original purpose has been accomplished.

i have no need to debate beliefs with anyone.
i am completely secure in my beliefs.

having said all of that, take a closer look at the point you are trying to make and the point that you have really made.

your point seems to be that christianity is legitamized by the fact that the story of jesus is so similar to the story of moses.

since the story of moses came first i would think that you are legitamizing the story of moses over the story of jesus.
since the former comes before the latter i would be inclined to think that these ideas would be part of the story of jesus.

any story that makes the claims that these stories make will be similar, and even the same in the message they convey.
if they didn't have the same message they would not have the same power to hold the mind of man hostage or to set him free.

the ones that contain the "whole" truth can do both.

[yaakov2]

<font color="0000ff">The pagan christ problem is just flatly denied by anyone I've confronted with it. You get the terribly dishonest "the devil did it" answer a lot but most of the time people have never heard of it.</font>

That’s true TO. I have no problem admitting that other people have gods that are just as real to them as mine is to me. But some Christians, like pro610 above refuse to admit how similar their beliefs are to predecessor beliefs.

BTW, I'm sorry for the triple post above. I got error messages that it hadn't posted. Then when all 3 came out, I tried twice, but it won't let me delete the excess ones.

[pro610]

"But some Christians, like pro610 above refuse to admit how similar their beliefs are to predecessor beliefs."

If you bothered to read the thread you would have know that I recognize the similarites

[pro610]

"your point seems to be that christianity is legitamized by the fact that the story of jesus is so similar to the story of moses."

The Old Testament Prefigures the New Testament and the New testament reveals the New.
The Bible is a Book of typology that shows mans Salvation history,thus Moses is a "type"(prefiguring) of Christ the Messiah

[fatherofaking]

i am sorry pro610, i hope i do not offend you.

many of the religions that came before the story of jesus could lay claim to that idea pro610.

if you do not see the point i am trying to make i understand.
religion can be a very personal thing.

telling someone that what they believe is in error carrys a large responsibilty.
i understand i am accountable for the things i say to people.
being aware of that i try and speak the truth.
the truth can profoundly affect someones life in all sorts of ways.

unless you have questions of some kind pro610, i would like to end this little thing we have going.

it seems to be a waste of time, space and energy.

[pro610]

"i am sorry pro610, i hope i do not offend you."

You did not offend me at all,in fact you have been kind and considerate.
I,m always happy to part ways on a good note.

Thanks again!

I hope the rest of your day is joyful.

I,m out of here also

[ba2]

<font color="0000ff">“What exactly is a cult?”</font> This was a great question. Kinda moved to something else and got a little negative when there was disagreement. One’s persons truth is another’s cult, isn’t it?

<font color="0000ff">“One thing they all have in common.
They follow a man not God.”</font> But they all thought they were following God’s word. No one ever realizes they are in a cult unless they break out of one.

<font color="0000ff">“Christianity is NOT always at odds with Science. It is at odds with Science on issues of morality- as it should be.”</font> Very good point! So, why do so many think just the opposite?

<font color="0000ff">“the meaning inherent in a metaphor can be elusive.”</font> Which is why they are so easily twisted. But even directly written facts can be elusive. Just look at our US Constitution. I’m sure the writers thought their meaning was being explained quite well, and that was only a few hundred years ago with a language which, for the most part, is still used.

<font color="0000ff">“It seems to me that several are on the right track. But they are not on the right train!”</font> Whose train is the right train?

<font color="0000ff">“So ... do you still think that TV preachers are raising the dead?”</font> Just send in your cash. For cash they will promise you anything.

<font color="0000ff">“Like I've said, most people take the god of their families with nary a thought about the incredible absurdity of doing such a thing without examining it properly and simply run with it convinced of their good fortune to be born into ‘The Truth’.”</font> And that, I think, is the truth! If they are not born into it, they are probably raised to believe in some sort of magic.

This was just rhetorical. I think this really got off topic, but it was very interesting.

[fatherofaking]

i would like to qualify this statement a bit.

the form (rules) must be shed to reveal the substance (character).

i do not think that one should shed the rules, but rather learn them so well that they become unconsciuos action.
that they (as if to dissappear) become our character.
we need to embody the idea that what a man sows, that also shall he reap.

[nwmomike]

Argument:But some Christians, like pro610 above refuse to admit how similar their beliefs are to predecessor beliefs.

Response:
Coincidental Correlation ( post hoc ergo prompter hoc )



Definition: The name in Latin means "after this therefore because of this".

This describes the fallacy. An author commits the fallacy when it is assumed that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other.

Examples: (i) Immigration to Alberta from Ontario increased. Soon after, the welfare rolls increased. Therefore, the increased immigration caused the increased welfare rolls.

(ii) I took EZ-No-Cold, and two days later, my cold disappeared.

Proof: Show that the correlation is coincidental by showing that:

(i)the effect would have occurred even if the cause did not occur, or

(ii) that the effect was caused by something other than the suggested cause.

References: (Cedarblom and Paulsen: 237, Copi and Cohen: 101)

I have not problem with similarities. The closer one approaches truth the closer the information would logically be similar. That does not mean that because one religion has similar ideas that it necesarily borrowed from the former. Nor does it invalidate either.

Michael

[fatherofaking]

i do not think anyone is saying that one religion "caused" another one to come into existence.
your reasoning (it seems to me) makes little sense.

if truth exists in two "different" religions then it is of little consequence where it came from.


whether jesus knew zoroaster or not, he understood the truth that he taught.
it would even seem, in the case of christianity especially, that they have built on one another.

the concept of the christ can be seen as a fulfillment of those that came before.
it is a natural evolution of thought.

i see them as following the evolution of mankind.
what we are able to accept and understand in the time that we live in.

christ is for all men.
it is based on the individual life.

the truth found in religions that came before was kept to the elite.
the priests, intellectuals, etc.
these were based on community life.
the leaders used what they knew to create cohesion and order in society.

the truth had to be learned from somewhere.
if not from the religions that came first, then where?

clearly there must be connections of some kind.
i think history shows those connections.

i do not think your examples fit the subject mike.

[nwmomike]

Thanks for clearing it up. So as I understand what you're saying instead is that they built on previous ones?
"it would even seem, in the case of christianity especially, that they have built on one another."

Michael

[ezekiel_37]

or the devil KNEW about God's plan of Salvation, and made counterfeits before hand. Christianity came after those counterfeits, but is the Real deal, and original idea.

in His service
c

[trainedobserver]

"or the devil KNEW about God's plan of Salvation, and made counterfeits before hand. Christianity came after those counterfeits, but is the Real deal, and original idea. "

Which is more likely?

The devil did it, or Christianity is just an outgrowth of the common religions at the time, morphing and changing as it went. As history shows. Or like you say, a supernatural being is out to fool you by an elaborate plot.

The simplest answer, the only way these things work in reality, is that the aspects of pagan religion in Christianity are not 'products' of Christianity but a plagiarism of the religions existent before it. Therefore Christianity is not what it claims to be.

The refusal to acknowledge this undeniable fact (pagan christs preceded jesus) and the rationalizing of it with the fantastic devil counterfeiting tale, is a sign that you are in such love with your ideas that you cannot seriously and critically view them in the light of new evidence and reason. This is a dangerous trap to fall into.

[ba2]

<font color="0000ff">"or the devil KNEW about God's plan of Salvation, and made counterfeits before hand….”</font> This is the same nonsense I hear at my fundamental church I attend every week. So I guess it is not only God who knows all…but Satan too. Is Satan a god?

The only way I can reconcile this in my mind is to agree with the evidence that pagan beliefs and behaviors came before Christianity. I must further admit that Jesus saw nothing wrong with bringing some of the pagan traditions into the new church. Apparently, he brought together many traditions and practices of the day, including Egyptian, Persian, Roman, Jewish and I’m sure, other beliefs.

[pro610]

Part 1 of 2
ba, here is a few excerpts from reliable research and sources some of this.
http://www.ankerberg.org/Articles/media-wise/MW0605W2.htm
The cult of Isis and Osiris ends with Osiris becoming lord of the underworld while Isis regathers his dismembered body from the Nile River and subsequently magically restores it. E. A. Wallace Budge, who, Dr. Wilbur Smith asserts, is "one of the greatest authorities of our century on ancient religions,"17 has this to say about the cult of Osiris:

There is nothing in the texts which justify the assumption that Osiris knew he would rise from the dead, and that he would become king and judge of the dead, or that Egyptians believed that Osiris died on their behalf and rose again in order that they might also rise from the dead.18

Smith also observes French scholar Andre Boulanger’s observation that, "The idea that the god dies and rises again to lead his worshippers to eternal life does not exist in any Hellenic mystery religion.19

It would appear then, that the real mythology is not in the origin of Christianity but in the minds of skeptics who are confusing such beliefs with the historical person and work of Jesus of Nazareth. (This is especially evident when one considers the immoral lives and deeds of the pagan deities since these are entirely disharmonious with the life and deeds of Jesus Christ.)

Indeed, as noted, scholars long ago refuted the idea that Christianity is related to the mysteries. Consider just a few of the great differences between Christian belief and the mystery cults that makes the claim of identity look foolish:

As for the motif of dying and rising saviour-god, which has so often been compared with the unique event which gave birth to Christianity, Metzger points out that the formal resemblance between them must not be allowed to obscure the great differences in content. In all the Mysteries which tell of a dying god, he dies "by compulsion and not by choice, sometimes in bitterness and despair, never in a self-giving love." There is a positive gulf between this and the Christ who asserted that no man could take his life from him but that he laid it down of his own will (Jn. 10:17; Mt. 26:28); the Johannine pictures of the cross as the place where Jesus was "glorified" and the Christian celebration of the Passion as a victory over Satan, sin and death. Similarly, there is all the difference in the world between the rising or re-birth of a deity which symbolizes the coming of spring (and the re-awakening of nature) and the resurrection "on the third day" of an historical person.20

[pro610]

part2
Whenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented, not just asserted. The danger of accepting an inaccurate claim is too great. The amount of misinformation in this area is great enough that it is advisable never to accept a reported parallel as true unless it can be demonstrated from primary source documents or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources. After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

1. Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not. The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source.

For example: "The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known" (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood (not surprising, since the Ennead itself was an extended family) and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong. There is no parallel.

2. Is the parallel dependent or independent? Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. Two groups may develop similar beliefs, practices, and artifacts totally independently of each other. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views.

For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this. The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.

3. Is the parallel antecedent or consequent? Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other. It may be that the pagan parallel is a late borrowing from a non-pagan source. Frequently, the pagan sources we have are so late that they have been shaped in reaction to Jewish and Christian ideas. Sometimes it is possible to tell that pagans have been borrowing from non-pagans. Other times, it cannot be discerned who is borrowing from whom (or, indeed, if anyone is borrowing from anyone).

[fatherofaking]

i appreciate your efforts to give some references that are not catholic in origin pro.

the difficulty here is that these people are christians who apparently have no idea of the meaning of these ancient myths.

i could give you many sources outside of christianity that would show that these guys just have no idea what they are talking about.


try joseph campbell for starters.

there are many that are considered experts on religious myth that do not have ties to christanity that you should be looking at pro.
you will always have a great deal of bias on these things form christians.

they have something to lose by accepting the truth of these things.
thier livelyhood for one.

i have challenged many learned christians on these things and usually have to face a great deal of anger.
most are not willing to give up the things that put food on the table.
even if they are not true.

[pro610]

fof
"there are many that are considered experts on religious myth that do not have ties to christanity that you should be looking at pro."

There are plenty that call themselves experts,the honest one,s will tell you that there is a lot of guessing based on the real evidence they have.
I have read both sides Christian and non Christian to be fair
The TRUTH is that that pagan mystery religions were quite different from Christianity in significant ways. They were based on an annual vegetation cycle, they stressed esoteric (hidden) knowledge, they emphasized emotional ecstasy over doctrine and dogma, and their central goal was mystical experience. They were also very syncretistic, taking elements from other pagan movements and shedding beliefs with little regard for any established teaching or belief system—completely contrary to the apostolic Tradition so intensely guarded by Christians.

Take Mithraism for example ,mithraism is still used today to attack Catholicism but the the earliest physical remains of the cult date from around the end of the first century A.D
Mithraism demonstrates how different from Christianity the pagan mystery religions were. Mithras was originally a Persian god depicted as a bucolic deity who watched over cattle. Mithraism was not introduced to the West and the Mediterranean world until the first century at the earliest, where it eventually attracted Roman soldiers. Contemporaneous with Christianity, this second form of Mithraism was for men only.
Mithraism did not originally have a concept of a god who died and was then resurrected. Despite the claims made in The Da Vinci Code, there is no ancient account of Mithras dying, being buried "in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days." That assertion is taken (either directly or from a second-generation source) from The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Kersy Graves.
Mithraism was not absorbed by Christianity but overcome by it.

excerpt from
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
Mithraism had a Eucharist, but the idea of a sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples. Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified. Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. Christ was born in a cave; and Mithraists worshipped in a cave, but Mithra was born under a tree near a river

What it all boils down to is this.....
If someone wants to find a reason to convince themselves that Christianity is a copy of something they can find information that says it is.
The question they really should ask themselves is how could it have been possible for Christianity to survive the first three centuries considering all of the huge efforts to snuff out the early Christians who only had a message of LOVE to defend themselves.
That my friend is the question that should be examined in your heart if you really want to be honest with yourself.

I,m off to work.
I wish you a NICE day!

[fatherofaking]

The question they really should ask themselves is how could it have been possible for Christianity to survive the first three centuries considering all of the huge efforts to snuff out the early Christians who only had a message of LOVE to defend themselves.

That my friend is the question that should be examined in your heart if you really want to be honest with yourself.

there is only one god pro.

the worship of god has survived from the beginning of man.

"christians" worshiped the same god that adam worshiped.
the term christian was first a derogatroy term.
it was not something that the worshipers of god gave themselves.
there is only one god and one love of god.

the differences that you see are nothing more than man groping for god.


sorry about the amount of scripture but the whole story must be read.

Ac 17:22 And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus, and said, Ye men of Athens, in all things, I perceive that ye are very religious.
Ac 17:23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. What therefore ye worship in ignorance, this I set forth unto you.
Ac 17:24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Ac 17:25 neither is he served by men`s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Ac 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined [their] appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;
Ac 17:27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
Ac 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Ac 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.
Ac 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
Ac 17:31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Ac 17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked; but others said, We will hear thee concerning this yet again.

[pro610]

fof
"there is only one god pro."

Correct! Now your making sense!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
A man named John was sent from God.
He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.
He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.
He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him.
But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God.
AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

1 John 1-14

Verse 14 bares repeating

"AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth."

[fatherofaking]

"AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth."

are we not flesh pro?

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


what are the works of the father pro?
if we are a son then we do the works of the one who gave birth to us.

[ba2]

pro, you said, <font color="0000ff">“Two groups may develop similar beliefs, practices, and artifacts totally independently of each other.”</font> Very true and I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. But I believe Jesus used some of those beliefs to bring in the non-Christians.

<font color="0000ff">“Other times, it cannot be discerned who is borrowing from whom (or, indeed, if anyone is borrowing from anyone).”</font> Perhaps, but I have seen enough evidence of parallel stories which most fundamentalist Christians view as their own, having emerged in the BC era.

I wasn’t getting so specific in my post, except to challenge those who claim Satan set up these parallel stories to confuse the message which was to emerge centuries later. One should not try to defend their faith with arguments that are so patently opposed to reason that the faith is made to look ridiculous.

[pro610]

fof

God the Father is the uncreated Creator. Within the Divine Procession, He is called Father because He is not produced or generated. The Father generates or begats the Son. What is important to realize is that there was never a time when God the Son did not exist. The Father thinks of Himself in His divine Mind and produces the Son, a perfect image of the Father in every way. The Son is called the Thought or Wisdom of the Father. The Father and Son love each other so greatly that they generate or produce the Holy Spirit. Again, there was never a time when God the Spirit did not exist. He is the Will of the Father and the Son. The Will follows Knowledge, which produces Love. This Love is the fruit of the Divine Procession. And we are called to share in this Love called God.

Quote
""if we are a son then we do the works of the one who gave birth to us."

We are each willed by God but God gives us a free will in order to choose Him and be obedient to what God has chosen for us(not an easy thing for us to do sometimes)
Here is what I believe..
Nothing I do ALONE is meaningful towards salvation. Christ can and does abide in us. He is not just visiting, but sanctifying us, working to convert us. An action in cooperation and moved by God, done in faith and love IS worthy of God's pleasing eye. Being that He is righteous, He will reward our puny response
3God is three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - in one nature. Three "who's", each possessing fully the One divine "what". They do NOT share the divine nature. Thus, when we say God the Son comes to us in Holy Communion, we also imply that the Father and the Spirit are there as well. All three persons are active together, yet distinct. The difference between the three persons is their origin.



Here is a quote from the late Pope John Paul 2

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

Hope this helps.

I,m off to enjoy the warm weather(FINALLY) here in upstate NY

[fatherofaking]

pro,

we are all one.

[pro610]

ba2 .
As usual ,you make very good points.

How you holding down the fort these days with the fundies?

I understand how you feel, can you imagine what it would feel like to be a Catholic around those people - ;O)

Blessings to you and your family

[ba2]

Hi pro,
We have changed churches again. Each change has been a slight step in the right direction, but even still, for my wife, it must be an independent fundamentalist and it must follow along with her unique beliefs. Her belief is what I would consider part of a cult mindset. And once I figured out which “cult” she was once part of, I started making measurable headway. It is a slow and arduous process. Without you knowing it, you have helped me deal with her and her church. Others on this site have too, even those with even more weird beliefs than the fundies. This site has given me great insight into the limits I can go to without them going off the deep end, so we can discuss the issues without digging in. That last sentence in my last post came from one of the citations you gave me. I have to be careful when I use it from time to time at church.

I don’t think a devote Catholic could hang around with these people and keep their head, not very easily anyway. I can’t imagine how you keep your head about you. This new church of ours is not so anti-Catholic. But they still have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and they will occasionally make statements which could potentially create ill feelings towards them. I am now convinced that Christian fundamentalism is no different than Islamic fundamentalism and is based on flawed thinking which easily moves into gullibility. For me, their literal view of the bible presents me with far more problems than assets. It offers me a god I cannot respect, much less worship; a deity whose needs and prejudices are at least as large as my own, probably even greater. And the biggest thing, they tend to focus on the negative and miss the whole point of the message of Jesus.

I know very little about the Moravian Church dogma, but I do love their motto:
"In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things love."

Thanks for caring.

[pro610]

"For me, their literal view of the bible presents me with far more problems than assets. It offers me a god I cannot respect, much less worship; a deity whose needs and prejudices are at least as large as my own, probably even greater. And the biggest thing, they tend to focus on the negative and miss the whole point of the message of Jesus."

Dear Brother,God has given you wisdom and wisdom is a gift
here is a few excerpts from the catechism
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm
108 -Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.


116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.

2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".

3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Quote
""you have helped me deal with her and her church""

You have also helped me see things different also.
You are respectful and kind to everyone wether you agree with them or not.

None of us are "All knowing".
We always must examine our conscious to see if love is where our beliefs are grounded.

Conscious is not the teacher,concsious is the pupil,the student.
Our conscious was not made to manufacture the truth,our conscious was made to seek the truth,to find the truth.
As Christians we believe that the truth is not some thing,it is "someone",that someone is Jesus Christ.