Visions visions visions

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

“Just the facts, ma’am,” as Joe Friday on Dragnet always said, “just the facts.” Well ok, I’ll settled for facts, opinions, insults, rants, . . . yeah that too.

Visions . . . what exactly are ‘visions’? Do people have ‘visions’ today?

1. The Church of Christ was founded on the vision of Alexander Campbell.
2. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded on the vision of Joseph Smith.
3. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society was founded on the vision of Charles Taze Russell.
4. The Adventist Movement was founded on the vision of Ellen White.
5. The Church of Christ, Science was founded on the vision of Mary Eddy Baker.
6. The pentecostal religion was founded on the vision of the homosexual Charles Fox Parham.

Recently on national television, Jim Bakker claims to have received and reported (in 2000)a vision showing the flooding of New Orleans after a hurricane. He also claims to have received a vision showing the Twin Towers falling on 9-11. He reported that vision to the FBI a year and a half before they fell.

So, tell me, are ‘visions’ real?

Your Ever Humble Servant,
Rev. Sandy Bryant DD.
Counter-cult Apologist

[grace2u]

Oh come on Sandy. I grew up in the Church of Christ and while I would say that they are about as close to being a cult without being one - I have NEVER heard of Campbell having a vision.

A vision can be the ability to see a strategic path etc. I also suppose a vision is something God gives you like a dream. To me it is the Holy Spirit living in you communicating to you.

Don't have time to say more today.

[plow_deep]

If it's a

Tell-a-Vision

the best thing to do is switch it off and unplug it.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Grace2u:

‘Tis true! In 1820, they booted Alexander Campbell from a Baptist church for preaching damnable heresies. For a few years, Mr. Campbell wrote letters to the love lorn for several newspapers. Perhaps Mr. Campbell was the original Dear Abby. At any rate, many of his articles are still available. Mr. Campbell discovered a fatal flaw in the constitution of the Disciples of Christ. That flaw allowed Campbell to retake the pulpit.

In 1825, Barton Stone(1.) permitted Mr. Campbell to use his pulpit to preach a revival. During that revival, Campbell received his vision. According to the vision, God raptured his church in the second century. God chose Alexander Campbell to quote, unquote “restore” the gospel. Campbell is considered the savior of modern man. The revival became known as the “Gospel Restoration” revival. Mr. Campbell’s most famous words? “A good debate is worth a thousand sermons.” I have debated them in their churches and on radio.

Barton Stone saw most problems with the vision. So, he took his flock down the road to reform the Disciples of Christ Movement. Mr. Campbell called his new church, the Church of Christ. Did somebody mention New York City? Well, maybe not New York City, Campbell, White, Russell, and Smith are all from New York. All attended the same revival preached by Campbell. The most famous Church’s of Christ minister is Jim Jones.

You are guilt of forcing another (maybe two) new thread(s)!

Your Ever Humble Servant,
Rev. Sandy Bryant DD.
Counter-cult Apologist


1. Barton Stone founded the Disciples of Christ Movement.

[hillariousharry]

The folk to be cautious about are those who claim to have visions every other day. Similarly those who continually say that "the Lord told me this and that".

How one can misuse the Name of our Lord by crediting something to Him which is none other than our own thoughts and wisdom which we were created with.

The same with those who give the devil continual credit, down to the ridiculous.

The church has in some ways become so very fanatical....needs to come down to earth more and get real....." balance in the spiritual circus of life is a key to stability of mind and safeguarding against becoming a laughing stock within communities".

I believe in the concept of Visions from our Lord......but once they are focussed on obsessively, then I believe the balance of scripture has been replaced with fanatical thought.

HH

HH

[grace2u]

Oh I am sure I am guilty of much more that's why I need a savior.

Still - you have to admit there is a substantial difference between the C of C's and the D of C's. I believe Jim Jones came out of the D of C's and I don't believe a large number of people with the D of C's look at things like he did. Or am I also mistaken on this?

The stuff you mentioned above was never been taught to me while in the C of C. A lot of incorrect stuff was taught to me but for the most part people did not talk about Campbell or Stone. I first heard the name Campbellite from a critique. Very interesting if true. Still I knew by the time I was a young adult that there is no way anyone can live up to the tenants of that faith. Also it is very, very difficult to hear the Gospel message there.

OK back to visions . . .

(Message edited by Grace2u on April 16, 2007)

[grace2u]

Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed . . .


A vision is a method that God communicates with a person using pictures???

It can be a series of such as in a dream?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Grace2u:

Can you still say bap-t-IZED in CoC tongue? Like David, I have spend many an hour in the camp of the enemy(real or perceived). I have seen JJ's ordaination certificate. It came from the COC, not the DOC. I still have one more thread to post. I am sure you will laugh at it too.

I have not grouped my thoughts on visions yet. But I will.

[grace2u]

First TATM - I have never laughed at you - doubted what you are saying - YES - laughed - No.

If I had I would have used a symbol like this http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

That's ok - it is hard to understand people over the Internet. I'm totally separated from the CofC and don't suspect that I have their tongue. They (the local congregation) excommunicated me when I started attending a Baptist church.

I do have a cousin who is a CofC minister but I think he is just plain wrong. I have not seen JJ's ordination (you can turn a spell check on if you check your account settings); however, I am going by what others have said. Also I have googled the bit on Alexander Campbell and haven't found anything out about your statements above. Again - not laughing just stating that I have NEVER heard of any of this and would like you to provide documentation regarding what you are saying.

[grace2u]

Maybe you should let these people know about Jim Jones. (I'm being serious and not sarcastic because I understand that it is just people like you and I that come up with these articles.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciples_of_Christ

The Peoples Temple congregation led by Jim Jones was affiliated with the Disciples of Christ at the time of the mass suicide of its members on 18 November 1978 at its compound in Guyana. Jones was ordained by the Disciples of Christ. His fellowship and standing with the Disciples was in the process of being revoked due to mental defect at the time of the events in Guyana. Because of the congregational polity of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), regional leaders did not have the power to intervene in a decisive manner. However, since the tragedy, the systems of accountability in all regions of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) have been strengthened.

[ezekiel_37]

If someone has a vision, and it doesn't line up with Scripture, then it is false. There is no NEW revelation, as Christ taught that He told us all things. We have the Prophets of the Bible to rely on, not john doe. Rapture is a perfect example of this. No such escape for Christians yet because of a dream (supposed vision) 1/2 of the church thinks that they don't need to go through that Trib time and work for God.

You can't fly with Armor on.


If it doesn't line up, it ain't so.


In His service
c

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Quoting: "you can turn a spell check on if you check your account settings)."
End quote.

Turn on spell check and turn off the fun! Sorry, people love correcting my grammer and spelling. Why deprive them of their only source of intertainment.

[grace2u]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

On a more serious note - I am well aware that Wikipedia can be a questionable source (which is why I pointed this out above); still, everything that I find on Jim Jones seems to indicate that he was connected and ordained by the Disciples of Christ which is substantially different from the Churches of Christ despite their common background.

[grace2u]

1961- The Peoples Temple Full Gospel Church, as it came to be called, became a part of the Disciples of Christ. Jones was ordained by that faith in 1964.

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~reli291/Jonestown/Jonestown.html

In September of 1954, Jones was invited to preach at the Laurel Street Tabernacle in Indianapolis, Indiana, an Assemblies of God church within the Pentecostal tradition (Hall 1987: 42). Although Jones’ charismatic style drew new members to the church, the administrative board felt threatened by the popular preacher’s inclusion of African Americans in his message and in his service. Faced with the choice of changing his message or leaving the church, Jones decided to form a new church with several members from the Tabernacle who appreciated his commitment to social justice for poor and working class people of all races. On 4 April 1955, the small group incorporated the Wings of Deliverance; a year later, they re-incorporated and renamed their organization Peoples Temple (Hall 1987: 43).

In 1960, Peoples Temple officially became a member of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) denomination in Indianapolis, and Jones was ordained as a minister, despite lacking formal theological training (Hall 1987: 52). As a result of this recognition, Jones acquired mainstream denominational support for the Temple while still retaining congregational autonomy. The church adopted the name Peoples Temple Christian Church. At this time, while the congregation of Peoples Temple was only about 20% African American, that figure was significant enough to draw attention in the largely segregated city of Indianapolis. Peoples Temple was one of the few, if not the only interracial congregations in the state, and Jones’ commitment to racial equality led him briefly to chair the Indianapolis Human Right Commission in 1961.

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Jonestwn.html

Jim graduated from high school with an interest and aptitude for medicine. While working as a hospital orderly, Jones met Marceline Baldwin, a nursing student, and they married in 1949. In Indianapolis, he served as a student pastor in the Methodist Church in 1952 but chose to found his own church, Peoples Temple, in 1956. The Temple joined the Disciples of Christ in 1960 and Jones was ordained in 1964.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/jonestown/peopleevents/p_jones.html

1960: The Peoples Temple officially becomes a member of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and Jones is ordained as a minister, despite lacking any formal training.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/11/17/jonestown.timeline.ap/index.html

In 1960 the Peoples Temple affiliated with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), and four years later Jones was ordained.

http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9126423

“Just the facts, ma’am,” as Joe Friday on Dragnet always said, “just the facts.”

[grace2u]

I'm saying all of this because if you make an error you need to correct it or you are no better than those you accuse. Show me the evidence and I will then say that I am incorrect.

Although I strongly disagree with the teachings of Alexander Campbell in some points, I believe your statement above is incorrect. I highly doubt that Campbell would have admitted to having such a vision if he had even thought he had received a vision.

Case in point - from Campbell:

"Christ the only Master: involving a rejection of all human names and leaderships in religion. The Bible the only authoritative book: necessitating the denial of the authority of all human creeds. The Church of Christ, as founded by him, and built by the Apostles, for a habitation of the Spirit, the only divine institution for spiritual ends: logically leading to the repudiation of all sects in religion as unscriptural, and dishonoring to the Head of the church. Faith in Jesus, as the Christ, the Son of God, and repentance toward God, the only scriptural pre-requisite to baptism and consequent church membership: thus dismissing all doctrinal speculation and all theological dogmata, whether true or false, as unworthy to be urged as tests of fitness for membership in the Church of Christ. <u>Obedience to the divine commandments, and not correctness of opinion, the test of Christian standing. The gospel the essential channel of spiritual influence in conversion: thus ignoring all reliance on abstract and immediate influence of the Holy Spirit, and calling the attention of inquirers away from dreams, visions and impressions, which are so liable to deceive, to the living and powerful truths of the Gospel, which are reliable, immutable and eternal.</u> The truth of the Gospel to enlighten; the love of God in the Gospel to persuade; the ordinances of the Gospel, as tests of submission to the divine will; the promises of the Gospel, as the evidence of pardon and acceptance; and the Holy Spirit, in and through all these, accomplishing His work of enlightening, convincing of sin, guiding the penitent soul to pardon, and bearing witness to the obedient believer of his adoption into the family of God.

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/jtbrown/coc/COC1301.HTM

Actually I agree with some of what is stated above - I disagree that "Obedience to the divine commandments, and not correctness of opinion, the test of Christian standing".

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Although I would agree that there is a correlation between faith and works.

[pilgrim]

the_apostolic_truth_ministries,

You wrote in you your post number 95,"1. The Church of Christ was founded on the vision of Alexander Campbell.
2. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded on the vision of Joseph Smith.
3. The Watchtower Bible &amp; Tract Society was founded on the vision of Charles Taze Russell.
4. The Adventist Movement was founded on the vision of Ellen White.
5. The Church of Christ, Science was founded on the vision of Mary Eddy Baker.
6. The pentecostal religion was founded on the vision of the homosexual Charles Fox Parham."

Which church was founded on the vision of Jesus Christ?

[grace2u]

And what is vision? I would say it differs in some of the above cases.

As far as Alexander Campbell - not that I'm entirely supporting him cause I don't - the vision (if there was one) was probably a vision in the sense of: The manner in which one sees or conceives of something.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vision

I would agree with the vision regarding Alexander Campbell's desire to get back to the first century church. I disagree that this church was lost (because God's word indicates otherwise) and needed to be restored.

I believe Joseph Smith's vision was the type in which he "believed" or devised that he had a "mystical experience of seeing as if with the eyes the supernatural or a supernatural being."

[ezekiel_37]

Same with Margret MacDonald.

Deception can happen with dreams.
Sometimes.....it's just a dream...and not a vision from God.

We must test the spirits.



in His service
c

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Ms. grace2u:

I did not have time to answer your question on Jones before leaving. I will only briefly answer here. I saw the actual ordination certificate in a private collection of JJ memorabilia. Back in the 70's, I met a major contributor to Jim Jones. Mr. Blakey (SP?) was in his late eighties at the time. I have no idea where the collection is today.

I would add that while JJ was a CoC preacher, he was more closely associated with the pentecostal church. We can discuss Alexander Campbell's vision if you like.

oops. ps and by the by, You can compare JJ and David Koresh. DK was ordained a Seventh Day Adventist and enjoyed ministerial privileges in several of their churches. Today, SDA claims DK was ex-communicated. Go figure!

[grace2u]

TATM,

I don't mean to be offensive but it just makes no sense. And I say this being one who voluntarily left the CofC (non-instrumental) myself. However, many "denominations" and the such do use the term "Church of Christ" in addition to their denominational name. That is the only thing that makes sense to me. Particularly since the CofC (non-instrumental) is about as far away from the Pentacostal denomination as far as the "gifts" go (not always the dress - long hair, etc. in some groups) that I can imagine.

I suppose anything is possible. If you would like to discuss more of Alexander's vision please do so. I have never, never heard of such and again-the group I worshipped with was very anti-that type of stuff (visions and such).

When I wrote all of this I was somewhat concerned that the DofC might feel that I was attacking them. That was not the case either. Wolves probably sneak in just about anywhere. I suppose you can find cults just about anywhere. I'm beginning to wonder about groups and ministries that I have seen out there. I think I will stay in the hills and stay in my own KJ Bible.

(Also, I would be interested in hearing more about what you said about Alexander thinking the rapture had already occurred or something like that.)

[grace2u]

Oh wait - Franklin will remind me that there are wolves in the hills too. (See all ya thinking that California is a prime mission field - only the tough guys can handle the hills!)

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Ms. Grace2u:

JJ held weekly "healing" services. Many in his church spoke in "tongues." pentecostalism and the CoC have a lot in common doctrinally. Few people today will admit to having supported Jim Jones. The truth is, JJ was one of the biggest televangelist of his day. His disgrace affected millions of folks from all religions.

[ezekiel_37]

what are your views on the rapture Sandy?