WE Are Pathetic tongues

[turtle]

Alot of people know me but newbies might not. But Here it goes. Everyone seems to be so caught up with this tongue issue it is pathetic. Everyong voicing their opinion what they believe and no one really digging into the word. I feel like I am an idiot.

Take a real hard look at Acts 2 and til me what was spoken in tongues. Then read what John chapters 14 thru 16 said about what the HOly Spirit would speak about. This is what the guideline for tongue speakers and none believers should be concerning whether something is realy or not if you are a Bible Believer. Does Acts 2 and all other accounts of the Holy Spirit present old and New line up with what Christ said in John 14 - 16. Do your homework. To lazy go to my site and go to Weekly Bible Study I have done the work for you.

http://www.turtle30cshell.com/WeeklyBS.html

I seldom visit this board anymore but if you want to correspond or have a question either right my site or post here. Thanks
The original and only turtle of factnet that live to tell it.

[grace2u]

No thank you.

(Message edited by Grace2u on April 14, 2007)

[turtle]

Sorry it offends you but if you realize I used word WE. We meaning everyone including me that have argued for Tongues or against Tongues. Fact is we are so stuck on the gift that we are failing to look beyong the gift at the basic facts of what was spoken on the Day of Pentecost. Did the Holy Spirit speak of Himself, Did He speak of Christ, or was it solely about the gift of tongues. I had to look at God's word and examine this. And I think eveyone who has been arguing needs to to. You see Grace I don't doubt you looked into tongues and defined it and researched from one end of your Bible to the other. That is not the point. Whether you have study or not is not the point. The point is Does God word back itself up from John 14 - 16 to the Appearance of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the disciples. When they receive did the Holy Spirit speak of Christ or God or anything. Was it just jibberish. The answer is so simple it is only three little words. And those words are the wonderful works of God. Read Acts find those three little words then look at the reference for it in your search.

Now there I have give you the answer on here. Grace you and I never been on opposites sides of the fence and i don't expect to be on opposite sides here. It took me twenty years to find those three little words and I am not ashamed to say it. We are all learning and growing and learning and growing and learning and growing. The word ever changing us. Do you not agree.

[hillariousharry]

Turtle

I dont like your way of communicating. Whilst I take no offence at your knoweldge and experience, I do by the "holier than thou" attitude.

You and I are equals no matter what our views of scripture are. Diversity of thought is healthly.

Sadly I think that your approach is a turn off and possible evidence of a lack of common courtesy.

Trouble is that many Xians think that it matters not about how they correspond with others...often resepct has long gone out the window.

Think about that one and then your views and knowledge can be better digested.

Sometimes the Church needs to take a leaf out of secular society. If I shared with colleagues in that way I would soon be onto a sticky wicket, lose respect and be a stumbling block in maintaining helpful and effective teamwork.

Sometimes Fellowships need to review how they stand on the principles of good communication. Get that right and people will more readily listen and consider....yet still feel able to make up their own minds.

HH

[turtle]

H.H.
Sorry I have offend you. But trust me I am not holier then thou. I post like I did for shock value. People have been ranting the subject of tongues include "I" for quite awhile on here. And though you may think I have knowledge i find myself lacking all the time. I found I learning something new almost everyday if I apply myself to God's word.

Now I am sorry you consider yourself and xtian. But I don't doubt you do agree we has humans are constantly learning. And I put myself in there at the top because I can be quite ignorant at times.

Thank you for your comments I do appreciate them. Though unless God changes me I doubt that much will change in the way I speak ever so blunt.

Thank you
turtle

[hillariousharry]

Surely the work of God's grace in our hearts causes us to be sensitive in communication...I think one of the basics as Xians. Yet so often non xians are examples of a gracious spirit.

Also the forum allows for people to "rant on about the subject of tongues", as it does for fierce debate and disagreement.

Perhaps it's important that one gets at the posting material and not the poster..(me included) to avoid things become personal.

Thanks for your appreciation.

Blessings galore and chuckles too.

HH

[turtle]

I think maybe I need to ask for you to define xians. it has occurred to me you are writting it like xmas perhaps. lol If so I am not sorry you are xians if it means you are a Christian, but if i interpet the first time correctly that you are not a Christian. so define xians to me, no one was using the abbrevation when I was more around. thanks.

[ezekiel_37]

IMO, Harry is a Christian. Abb. are used all the time. Some use them more than others.

I prefer to write Christian as opposed to xian.
Others might not know what a xain is.

[turtle]

Hey exekiel, how are you. Long time no see. Okay I have not been around. I dont' remember it being used when iw as around alot. But i really don't think I would prefer to use it. It seems to take Christ out of the word ians.
turtle

[ezekiel_37]

hi Turtle, I agree http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I'm fine, thanks. Hope you are aswell.



ps. Harry, I am definitely not a Liberal Christian.

[hillariousharry]

It's really a matter of preference. Several people have mentioned it to me before.

I wouldn't dream of lowering the Name of Christ ( not that anyone has suggested it)....have known His reality in my heart for too long. But maybe the following explanation will help:

X is the Greek symbol for the letter Chi (sorry cant get the Greek alphabet on this limited form fully).

Chi is the first letter of the Greek name for Christ (transliterates as Christos).

The Chi-rho (Ki-ro) symbol, representing the first two letters of the Greek was a "secret sign" from the early days of persecution for Christians and is still seen in churches today (looks like a X & P intertwined on drapes from the pulpit).

It was sometimes represented as simply Chi (looks like X), a secret known to the initiated (those in the "know" or having the secret knowledge).

It is interesting to know that "secret knowledge" was the beginnings of the later heresy known as Gnosticism, from the Greek meaning knowledge. They say a little knowledge can be dangerous - perhaps this is where this came from. However I digress.

Hope this explains why our letter X is justifiably used as a shortened form of Christ and shows no disrespect. On the contrary it is in line with the practice of our earliest Christian brothers and sisters.

Ezekiel - liberal Xian !! Suppose could open up a new subject in itself. For me, it's one's heart being in tact before our Lord. Differences of thought and biblical interpretation will always be around, which is healthly allowing us to review our own beliefs and views. Knowing the warmth of our Lord's presence in the heart is the priority....for me it's then being quite relaxed about things, not striving; rather allowing that Faith expression in daily living....

HH

[turtle]

Ephesians 4:5-15 KJV
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
(8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
(10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

[hillariousharry]

Hi Turtle

Yep...well know scriptures you quote.

You dont mention your objective for sharing them.

HH

[turtle]

"Ezekiel - liberal Xian !! Suppose could open up a new subject in itself. For me, it's one's heart being in tact before our Lord. Differences of thought and biblical interpretation will always be around, which is healthly allowing us to review our own beliefs and views. Knowing the warmth of our Lord's presence in the heart is the priority....for me it's then being quite relaxed about things, not striving; rather allowing that Faith expression in daily living.... HH"

The verse I post above was inspire by the last statement you made to ezekiel. I am sorry I did not explain why i posted. But the truth we are all working hopefully toward unity and what brings unity is the Spirit of God, One faith, One Lord, and One Baptism.

[jillillill]

Turtle, I'm a newbie, and not necessarily a Christian. I found the Bible Study material interesting.

I'm not sure what to make of it. I think my own emphasis would be on those people who were able to hear the message of the Lord in their own native languages, rather than those who spoke. I guess my emphasis would be then on the communication and not the mechanism.

Anyway, when the people in Acts spoke in tongues, was it the same as when the burning bush spoke to Moses? And when Jesus spoke, was it God speaking through him, as God spoke to Moses throught the burning bush?

Just curious, and with nothing better to do on a Sunday afternoon. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Jill

[turtle]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turtle, I'm a newbie, and not necessarily a Christian. I found the Bible Study material interesting.

I'm not sure what to make of it. I think my own emphasis would be on those people who were able to hear the message of the Lord in their own native languages, rather than those who spoke. I guess my emphasis would be then on the communication and not the mechanism.

Anyway, when the people in Acts spoke in tongues, was it the same as when the burning bush spoke to Moses? And when Jesus spoke, was it God speaking through him, as God spoke to Moses throught the burning bush?

Just curious, and with nothing better to do on a Sunday afternoon.

Jill

<font color="0000ff">I am glad you found it interesting. And I think you ask some good questions. I am not around alot these days but I seen the continual talk on the board concerning tongues. Yes you are correct the emphasives should be what happen with those who heard the messge and not so much on how God brought the message. The fact is God brought the message to those who heard it in their own language and because of it many got saved that day.

The same God that spoke to Moses in the burning bush as will as through other prophets spoke though the disciples that day. The same God desires to draw all people to Himself because he loves them and created them. Jesus I believe was God so yes it is the same Spirit that spoke whether it be God the Father God the son(Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.

Often people get caught up with the gifts of the Spirit leaving out the Creator. What is important is what God did and what affects it had on the people. Did the people respond to God's call that day? Yes. Did they hear who He was? Yes. Did they believe? Yes.

To picture hearing it in your own language and not the language of the area would of been most surprising. It be like standing in a small american mountain town and a local boy standing up and speaking in dutch and a dutchman walking down the street heard it. It would definitely get the attention of the man. It also could be a turn off to those who would not understand. But the thing is all heard all understood in their own language. God wanted them to know He loved them no matter where they were from. His message is for all people. It always has been even in Moses day but often in old testament people fail to remember there were those that did convert to judaism. Israel was suppose to be light to all nations for God. Just like Christians are suppose to be a light in a darken world that knows not God. But often christian forget to share God's love instead they share their own bigotry. </font>

[grace2u]

Turtle,

I'm putting your first post behind me as we all make mistakes in wording (including myself).

Although I appreciate Sandy's view and presentation on the other thread regarding communication - I can't help but see the use of tongues in Acts 2 as actual languages.

So I guess the question is does a "prayer" language actually exist as seen in the charismatic circles?

[turtle]

Grace2u
IN Acts two it is an actual language that is known to those that heard the word of God. But what about a pray language the charismatic and pentecostals alike claim. Does one exist. Here is one verse to look at but I am think of another as well and trying to find it.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

IN the Spirit He speaks mysterious. Mysterious being key word. Now one must remember this verse as well.

Romans 8:26 KJV
(26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Which can not be utter is key words here. Can't be utter would not be able to speak.

First mysteries that are spoken by the Spirit and heard and then in Romans ones that can not even be spoken.

This is the point I want to make Grace2u. It is not for us to use the gifts as we want. Once the gift in controversy is tongues. We can not just start speaking unless we know a different langage other then our main one. It has to be given has the Spirit gives utterance. Keyword utterance. In Acts 2 the disciples could not speak the words with out having the ability by the Holy Spirit. In a private pray language the same thing. No difference.We can not manifest tongues on a whim or when we feel like it. It would have to be has the Spirit gave utterance(gave the ability). Once we both like to define words take a look at the word to utter or utterance. If you havea Thomason Chain reference take a look at the word utterance. It is an interesting search. If not if you got a subject Bible check it out. E-sword did not help much on this one for me. Tell us what you find. I think you will be surprised. I was.

It has occurred to me as we have debated about tongues we have forgotten who enables and who gives the ability. It seems we think we are able to manifest it on our own but that would not be so. it is like teaching preaching or any gift it would have to be as God gives ability. Ability not necessarily learned.

God annointed Uri to do thw workmanship in the tabernacle. Also if you think of Gideon he was called by God without experience. He did not think he could lead. If we look at each Bible character did they have ability or did God give them ability. If it was by their own ability and not God given what does that mean did they need God to accomplish the task at hand?

Grace2u because you are a scholar as I am I challenge you to do the research and share what you learn on this. Then answer could God give the ability to speak a language unknown to man? And if He can or does what are some rules or guidlines to consider on this.

[ezekiel_37]

I am afraid that turtles view may be seen by a newbie, and taken for fact.

I like turtle, but she is wrong in her analysis.

There is no scriptural support for an unknown prayer language. It is misinterpreting the instructions that Paul taught on how to spread the Gospel into other nations and to people that speak a different language than the preacher. Christianity was not just for Jews, and this was indeed Paul's commission...get the Gospel to the nations.


The word UNKNOWN is added by the translators and is NOT in the manuscripts. A Green's interlinear will show anyone this.

My belief is that this is pure deception, and I feel truly sorry for anyone caught up in it. There are seducing/deceiving spirits. There are people who go with the flow(kinda like getting emotional and crying during a movie on TV). And there are con-men/women.

Take your pick.


Again, I do not want to pick on turtle, but teaching this to others is a sin (whether it be in ignorance or not). The thread on 1Cor 14-tongues has a detailed verse by verse expose on what was being taught. If one is serious and goes through each verse, carries the subject on through out, a newbie without any "previous influence" will most likely be able to see the truth being taught.

In His service
c

[turtle]

Ezekiel,
Let me ask you a question. Do mind?? We could go all day on this one and we both know it and this is not the purpose of this thread and I think you are wise enough to know it. Do you not believe in examination of the word? Would it do you any good to preach to me if I am presuaded otherwise? What changes the heart and minds of man? YOu say you are a Christian, no problem we all are different in our beliefs. But we should be in unity as one faith, One Lord, One Baptism.
Here is the difficult question for you Ezekiel. The one I want you to answer The one I also asked Grace2u to answer and maybe not as direct. Who gives the utterance??? Who gies the ability???? His it man's ability or God's ability that what occurred on the day of pentecoste happened.

An actually Ezekiel their is only one true answer no matter what we both believe on unknown tongues. The division would be with us that simple fact but what do we agree on. This is not to trap you in to thinking my way because by this time you have your opinion as even I do but looking at the word of God this is something has Christian despite our other views we should agree on.

Blessing to you Ezekiel
turtle

[ezekiel_37]

Turtle, you wrote,

<font color="ff0000">Ezekiel,
Let me ask you a question. Do mind??</font>

No I don't mind

<font color="ff0000">We could go all day on this one and we both know it and this is not the purpose of this thread and I think you are wise enough to know it. </font>

What is the purpose of this thread? You are teaching on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...I think, however, when one teaches an unknown prayer language, and calls it the Holy Spirit, that is error, and I will speak up about it. I can still love a person and edify them at the same time. I have been edified in many ways from many different people.

<font color="ff0000">Do you not believe in examination of the word? </font>

Of course I do, I hope you really didn't mean that. My posts are filled with examination of the Word, rightly divided.<font color="ff0000">

Would it do you any good to preach to me if I am presuaded otherwise? </font>

God's will be done<font color="ff0000">

What changes the heart and minds of man? </font>

God's conviction through the Holy Spirit.<font color="ff0000">

YOu say you are a Christian, no problem we all are different in our beliefs. </font>

Well that's true. I never claimed that you were not a Christian.<font color="ff0000">

But we should be in unity as one faith, One Lord, One Baptism. </font>

Agreed. Most Christians agree on the Milk of the Word, but rarely agree on the Meat.<font color="ff0000">

Here is the difficult question for you Ezekiel. The one I want you to answer The one I also asked Grace2u to answer and maybe not as direct. Who gives the utterance??? Who gies the ability???? His it man's ability or God's ability that what occurred on the day of pentecoste happened. </font>

Pentecost and 1Cor 14 are not the same thing at all. One is the Gift of the Cloven tongue of Fire from God, where all understood the message sent, because God sent it directly. The other is instructions on how to spread the Gospel into other languages. This makes it possible for the World to receive the Word, and not just the Jews. No confusion, unlike the unknown prayer language.<font color="ff0000">

An actually Ezekiel their is only one true answer no matter what we both believe on unknown tongues. </font>

And what is that answer turtle? If you say the Holy Spirit, and include gibberish as evidence, then you are mistaken.<font color="ff0000">

The division would be with us that simple fact but what do we agree on. </font>

We agree on the Milk and probably some Pablum too.

<font color="ff0000">This is not to trap you in to thinking my way because by this time you have your opinion as even I do but looking at the word of God this is something has Christian despite our other views we should agree on.</font>

My opinion cannot change. Yours can. you could be shown/read/hear the truth, and accept it, and then understand just what the "feeling" is that you claim is evidence of the Holy Spirit.

Unknown tongue prayer language is not even taught in the bible, and is against what I see as being the Word of God. God is not confusion. Have you read the other thread 1Cor14-tongues in it's entirty?

If you had/have, you will understand my position. I wish peace to you in Christ, and truth. His Word can have no contradictions. The unknown prayer language is a contradiction to the Word. It is just not there.

In His service
c

[turtle]

Ezekiel,
<font color="ff0000">Let me ask you a question. Do mind?? </font><font color="000000">

No I don't mind

</font><font color="ff0000">We could go all day on this one and we both know it and this is not the purpose of this thread and I think you are wise enough to know it. </font><font color="000000">

What is the purpose of this thread? You are teaching on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...I think, however, when one teaches an unknown prayer language, and calls it the Holy Spirit, that is error, and I will speak up about it. I can still love a person and edify them at the same time. I have been edified in many ways from many different people. </font><font color="ff0000">

The purpose is not to speak about tongues, but to speak concerning God's ability to instruct the believer as God did on the day of Pentecost. That one of the greatest signs He instructed the believers is they spoke in tongues and did not speak gibberish but spoke the wonderful works of God. God spoke to all those who heard through the disciples in the listeners on language. Not in their ability but in the ability of God. They utter not by their own will but by the will of God. God giving each the ability to speak. Just like God enables teachers and preachers today to speak in a language of those who hear the wonderful works of God. Whether it be in the man's native tongue or not God instructs</font><font color="ff0000">

Do you not believe in examination of the word? </font><font color="000000">

Of course I do, I hope you really didn't mean that. My posts are filled with examination of the Word, rightly divided.

</font><font color="ff0000">Would it do you any good to preach to me if I am persuaded otherwise? </font><font color="000000">

God's will be done

</font><font color="ff0000">What changes the heart and minds of man?</font><font color="000000">

God's conviction through the Holy Spirit.

</font><font color="ff0000">You say you are a Christian, no problem we all are different in our beliefs. </font>

Well that's true. I never claimed that you were not a Christian. <font color="ff0000">

But we should be in unity as one faith, One Lord, One Baptism. </font><font color="000000">

Agreed. Most Christians agree on the Milk of the Word, but rarely agree on the Meat.</font><font color="ff0000"> Yeah we do agree on something Ezekiel. That is the first base of unity. </font><font color="ff0000">

Here is the difficult question for you Ezekiel. The one I want you to answer The one I also asked Grace2u to answer and maybe not as direct. Who gives the utterance??? Who gives the ability???? His it man's ability or God's ability that what occurred on the day of pentecoste happened</font><font color="000000">

Pentecost and 1Cor 14 are not the same thing at all. One is the Gift of the Cloven tongue of Fire from God, where all understood the message sent, because God sent it directly. The other is instructions on how to spread the Gospel into other languages. This makes it possible for the World to receive the Word, and not just the Jews. No confusion, unlike the unknown prayer language. </font><font color="ff0000">

First of all this thread was not suppose to be about unknown tongues But that is what you are trying to make it. The discussion is about Acts 2. But yes I think I Corinthians should be examined as well and dually notes your definition of unknown tongues. But let me ask you something. If I speak a language that is coherent to my friend and not to you is it not a unknown language to you?
An actually Ezekiel their is only one true answer no matter what we both believe on unknown tongues. </font>

[turtle]

And what is that answer turtle? If you say the Holy Spirit, and include gibberish as evidence, then you are mistaken.

The division would be with us that simple fact but what do we agree on.

don't divide the paragraph Ezekiel if you do it leaves out what I am saying. Though we be divide on unknown tongues there is something we do agree on God's ability, and God's divine instruction to the believer by the Holy Spirit

We agree on the Milk and probably some Pablum too.

This is not to trap you in to thinking my way because by this time you have your opinion as even I do but looking at the word of God this is something has Christian despite our other views we should agree on.

My opinion cannot change. Yours can. you could be shown/read/hear the truth, and accept it, and then understand just what the "feeling" is that you claim is evidence of the Holy Spirit.

So you are willing not to change if God convicts you of something as being wrong that you believe. Boy Ezekiel you need to read Ephesians four again.

Unknown tongue prayer language is not even taught in the bible, and is against what I see as being the Word of God. God is not confusion. Have you read the other thread 1Cor14-tongues in it's entirty?

If you had/have, you will understand my position. I wish peace to you in Christ, and truth. His Word can have no contradictions. The unknown prayer language is a contradiction to the Word. It is just not there.

If you understand my position Ezekiel you to would grasp what I am saying God giving the ability to utter and God giving instructions to the believer through the Holy Spirit. Not whether or not one spoke in tongues or not but what is important God enables man and instructs man. Just like God instructed Moses and God instructed Gideon. Not whether or not God used an Angel or a burning bush to speak to these men or both.

May you hear not the division we have but the truth the meat of the word. Not our ability but God's ability to give instruction and to cause great and wonderful things to happen to draw all men to God and to the disciples.

In Christ Love
turtle

[turtle]

I tried color coding the last part but this system landed up just causing me a aheadache so I hope it is clear who says what between ezekiel and me. I am sure ezekiel has no problem with it.

[turtle]

By the way look at the definition and example I gave of unknown tongue. And see if you agree. If i speak spansih to God and you do not understand spanish would it not be an unknown language to you but not to God. Keep in focus God given ability and God's instruction.

[hillariousharry]

The discussion above does prove my view that Scripture is open to differing interpretations. Nothing wrong with that cos were we all to meet up and share fellowship our common objective would be the Cross &amp; Resurrection on which there can be no compromise. No belief in our resurrected Lord equals no possiblity of a living faith.

But... compromise on many other points including tongues is healthy. A pity that churches cannot be more composed of those differing views. Xians huddle together in their groups based on their common beliefs.....fellowship would be enriched if there was more flexibility.

Does it really matter what we think about tongues. Not the be all and end all. But until we reach the pearly gates its still enjoyable to have a good old debate.

"One of the keys to Xian unity is compromise"...once a dirty word in my Xian experience; now otherwise. And nothing liberal about that; rather liberating from fuundamental bigotry and the I'm right syndrome.

Mutual respect lowers barrier amongst Xians as does compromise.

HH

[turtle]

Those who are interested in the Bible Study i am doing just a note that it is update on wednesday morning.

http://www.turtle30cshell.com/WeeklyBS.html

I just thought I would mention it.

And Yes HH maybe this why Ephesian 4 is quoted above in the above discussion. You asked why i posted it maybe just maybe we can keep our focus on what truly is important. One Faith, On Baptism and One Lord. Unity by the Holy Spirit. All of us growing in the Lord. Not necessarily compromising but agreeing it is okay to disagree. And disagreeing can be a compromise.

[hillariousharry]

Good thoughts Turtle.

In my experience compromise was vital in order to survive the detrimental effects of excess and fanaticism which sadly brought a near breakdown. And that was due to the intensity of so called pentecostal environments, including the dreadful occasions all one heard spouted from the pulpit was OTT material. I now smile to think that I find the medidative atmosphere of formal church very therapeutic...often the set prayers are more meaningful than what I was used to. I cannot go into the happy clappy type set ups now cos it triggers flashbacks and awful thoughts of old time manipulative practices.

The lesser of two evils was to lessen the focus of church involvement and integrate more socially elsewhere. No longer do I have to strive to witness to almost everyone I meet. It happens naturally and often through a helping hand and words of encouragement and support to others. I can enjoy the company of people whether Xian or otherwise. So glad my children escapeed those fanatical days and with their own families live a normal life.

Not that my inner faith was disturbed, rather standards needed reviewing and adapting in order to ensure stability, quality family life and health. No longer am I the "just passing thru Xian". Indeed an insult to our Lord who gave us life to enjoy...precious it is here on earth.

It worked with satisfaction thank God. How different we are in make up with varying needs.For me my inner faith doesnt have to constantly be seeing specatular things. The quiet, serenity of one's heart at peace with God is for me a wonderful gift.

As for tongues, it really doesnt bother me what one believes...I tend to remain open-minded on the subject and enjoy see the various viewpoints.

My quote would be " balancing acts in the spiritual circus of life avoids unhealthy extremes and a lifeless faith"

HH

[turtle]

I truly think one must take a stand on their beliefs yet at the same time realize not everyone will agree or accept it the exact same way. In other words don't compromise what you believe but recognize that the other person just does not agree.

But yes I can understand need for balance. I often find the need to have balance between everything in my life with Christ in the center of it all.

Bible Study has been updated. Opinions please

[ezekiel_37]

Hi Turtle,

<font color="119911">By the way look at the definition and example I gave of unknown tongue. And see if you agree. If i speak spansih to God and you do not understand spanish would it not be an unknown language to you but not to God. Keep in focus God given ability and God's instruction.</font>

The way you worded your definition is, in my opinion correct.

I see a problem when a Christian accepts another stance on tongues. If it is fallacy, it is not from God. The babble prayer language is fallacy.

It is not from God.

If it is demonic (IMO) then we should be telling ALL about this demonic activity, not accepting it as a possibility of the true Tongue of God. It is not OK to agree to disagree on this aspect of Faith. For, if my understanding of the 'unknown prayer language' is correct, what is being practiced in many so called Christian churches is Satanic in nature. This is not Christianity but a counterfeit.

I personally can't be quiet about it.


This forum is not a private one, so my views are sometimes not tempered with compassion, as they may be in person.

In His service
c

[turtle]

Ezekiel,

Take a look if you got time at this weeks Bible Study see you think I left anything out or anything you disagree with. i am interested in your opinion whether we agree or not totally. I think you might be surprised at what I say concerning tongues.

[ezekiel_37]

So Turtle, I just read your weekly bible study.

To be honest I do not entirely agree.

1st- Water Baptism is the example, after a change of heart has occurred. One must choose the Water Baptism, not have it forced upon them. Infant baptism really doesn't mean the same thing as if one chose it freely. The Holy Spirit is the actual Baptism. I know the above from personal experience. My heart was completely changed as the Holy Spirit cleansed me of my sin. I was indeed baptised as a child, but that was irrelevant. I did not choose that. I fell away from our Father in my teen years. Now that I have the real thing, do I still need the example? Others may need that example, and (IMO)that is what is being taught to us through the Word.

2nd- Water baptism IS full immersion, as the word is taken from -to dye. Turning from one colour to another.

3rd- You still are not bringing forth what tongues actually is. It is Language, not lack of language incoherently mumbled.

You stated, is tongues for today or not.

Spreading the Word into other (gentile) languages is certainly for today. That glorifies God, magnifies Him.

Mumbo Jumbo is never glorifying God. Confusion cannot magnify Him. It sows discord and others will think that you are nuts if you pray in gibberish. This takes away from our Father.

The criticism I would give your study is that you are not defining tongues. You are allowing the reader to possibly believe that the unknown prayer language is tongues when it just isn't so.

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

I am not saying that you do this on purpose, but it seems that the reader doesn't quite get the point that tongues is LANGUAGE, not allashabookana.

I think the verses you used illustrates that the Gentiles heard and understood and accepted the Gospel message. The Gentiles were foreign speaking peopels. That would be the whole point concerning tongues.

in His service
c

[turtle]

Okay I take your critizism. There is a point I want you to think about.

Say I speak french fluently. I stand up and I start speaking french in the middle of Church. Now here is what I say.
"The auick brown fox jump over the fence. And if apple were oranges I be a lemon. "

Of course I would not do this but you must understand someone could. French is a legitim language is it not. But in this circumstance it does not glorify God/ magnify God or tell the wonderful works of God.

Here is my point though I agree that tongues is a language not necessarily learned by the speak but uttered under the power of the Holy Spirit. Now with that said people can fake speaking in tongues by speaking an actual known language and only because a word or two might be understood by a few who had french class does that make it a legit occurence of utterance? The answer is no.

I got one for you what if God speaks to your heart when someone is speaking in tongues and makes you almost laugh. The bad part is what God spoke to your heart did happen. But the point God was making to your heart that it was not the real mccoy it was fakery, because you had a similiar experience when a fake minister spoke in tongue and you know he is fake because of his actions and how he lived his life. If it wasn't for that you would of believed what was said, because God spoke to your heart. In other words disquishing fruit and actions not trying to judge but saying will this is what the Bible says about a spirit filled life and those claiming are cheating and robbing the poor can not be spirit filled. Or not Holy Spirit filled. I dont' doubt there is a spirit there, but definitely not of God.

Point not even legit tongues are always God ordained. People can get in the pulpit and preach a mighty fine sermond and not be of God as well. Learning to disquish the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of the devil is not always easy and tongues are probably the hardest to disquish because some people with the gift of interpetation do not interpet.
Prophecy you can wait and see if there is any truth to it. Preaching and teaching you can see if it lines up with God's word. The gift of helps is obvious. But tongues can be faked whether with a known language or someone pretending to speak a language and speaking nonsense in a language or speaking gibberish.

Unless there is more then one interpetor you can not know if it is of God unless God speaks as well to your heart.

I have been trying to hard to share not everything seen in the church despite the gift is of God and the way you know is fruits and what is said. And actually I really have only touched on fruits I think. I have to go back and look.

I can understand your anger of those that speak gibberish. But known languages are not always of God either and that to needs to be shown.

[turtle]

P.S. Ezekiel, in lesson two on the Holy Spirit I did use the word language. You can access it from weekly Bible study page as well as from the regular Bible Study page on my site.

turtle

[arron]

turtle i have had trouble with my comp so i was off line for a couple of days. enjoy talking to you

[oneway]

Here's something to consider.

1 Corinthians 12:1 *Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 *Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 *Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 *Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 *And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 *And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 *But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 *For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 *To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 *To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 *But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. At the same time, no man can come to the Father but thru the Son. So then, no man can come thru Jesus but by the Holy Ghost.
Now if we look at these gifts of the Spirit, it is the same Spirit that gives these gifts.

So now let's consider someone who speaks in tongues today. If this man or woman says that Jesus is Lord, by the Holy Ghost, then this person has the Holy Ghost. So my question is, if this person has the Holy Ghost, how can this person have both the Holy Ghost and be baptised with tongues of devils, babble as you call it?
The only way I can see this being possible is if these people never had the Holy Ghost in the first place. But if they do have the Holy Ghost, and you are claiming that they are being baptised with tongues of devils, then you could be blaspheming the obvious works of the Holy Ghost, Jesus said this sin was unforgiveable.
So my question is, do these people have the Holy Ghost in the first place, or do they have the Holy Ghost and at the same time speak with tongues of devils, or do they have the Holy Ghost and speak with tongues of angels unto God?
These are the only 3 possible conclusions that I can see, so which is it?

[turtle]

Not everyone that says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Remember Faith without works is dead.
Even devil believes and trembles.

Lets not get carried away about my experience. That wasn't the purpose of sharing.

The point I want to make not eveyone claiming God is of God and not all fruit you see is of God.And simple fact it is hard to distinguish. soemtimes. The anti Christ is alive and will and imitating God through signs and miracles.

Let me ask you a question how can someone claim to be a preacher and live like the devil. Cheating and robbing people and using people for there own purpose to gain money saying it is for the church and line their pockets promising to pay a person but never doing exactly that.

Let me explain a little better. The preacher hires someone to do some work with the promise to pay, He never pays them saying you did the work for the church so just write it off. Takes the moeny he made from the project and sticks it in his pocket.

[turtle]

This minister claim to slay people in the Spirit and speak in tongues and prophecy. To make the above preacher clear. This is not a scenerio and actual case i know of.

[ezekiel_37]

I guess the best way to explain my view is with example.

I do not like to use names of preachers, but I think that for clarity, I will. These preachers are well known TV preachers and I will share what I saw and discerned.

1- Benny Hinn-

Mr Hinn says that he is not the healer but God is. I agree. Do people get healed at his sermons?
I really don't know. Some may. Benny claims this of course.

But if you have ever watched his show, you know what he does. He praises Jesus, sings praise to Him, and (supposedly) healings take place through out the arena/church.

The people that were supposedly healed go to the front of the church/arena and give a testimony of the healing. Benny Hinn will talk to them, and blow on them or touch them, and the people will faint (somehow this is supposed to glorify God?)

Benny calls it the power of God...the presence of the Holy Spirit knocking people out.

Now, I am not going to say whether this is real or not, but on one occasion, a little old lady, probably 80 years old or so, was giving her testimony on stage of how she was healed of something(I can't remember what), and while she was speaking, she stopped speaking English and started to speak a Latin sounding language.

A look of peace came over her, and she raised her arms up and spoke this language. I don't know Latin but I don't think that she spoke gibberish. This lasted only a few seconds.

Benny was speaking to her, and she was replying (over the microphone that Benny held), when this phenomenon happened.

Benny actually took the microphone away from her (while she was speaking this other language), and told the TV audience and the people in church/arena that she was "speaking in tongues".

He actually took the mic away in the middle of it. When he put the mic back in her face, the moment was over and she returned back to normal.

So, the little old lady spoke this for only a few seconds, then went back to speaking English.

After, Benny asked her what she felt like, and she said peaceful, but couldn't remember what the message was. She didn't know, neither did Benny. Benny never explained it, nor did anyone else, and the show continued with more people fainting, etc.

Was this tongues? Nope, it was not. For it to be a gift of God and a Message from Him, ALL would fully understand this message, as we see at Pentecost. I would have understood it myself, while listening at home, but I did not, nor did anyone in the audience.

This was not the Holy Spirit, but a demonic force that knows latin. Counterfeit tongues by evil spirits, fooling many. She was possessed.

cont.

[turtle]

That is a very good point that all understood.That exactly what the word of God says in Acts the first experience.

[ezekiel_37]

2- Creflo Dollar - (I think I am spelling his name right but I could be wrong).

This man is a pure scam artist, and it is all about the money.

Mr Creflo Dollar (or his wife) will preach a sermon, and while he (or his wife) is doing this, he will mumble gibberish from time to time, for a second or 2, and continue with his English sermon.

The people at church and watching at home hear the gibberish and for some reason think that it is God giving Creflo Dollar some insider information that the rest of us are not worthy to hear.

Creflo doesn't stop to explain, no one else can understand it at all, and he continues with his sermon, supposedly being the only one who understands this supposed "special" message from God.

All the people there assume that it is the gift of tongues and Creflo is annointed enough to receive it and speak him sermon. hallashabookana.


Example.

Creflo speaking-

God will always prosper you if..hallashabookana..you give where you are taught...allapemmmanshe...and He is good and great and by His spirit shall we ...
kkalllorrraffoll ... overcome the devil. Can I get an Amen. Jesus is the only way ... blahwayedfuhloo .. to the Father. Praise God.

Then he will speak on tithing, a theme that seems to be taught 3 out of 4 weeks. Money, money, money. Go figure.

Creflo's example is not a gift of God, but pure confusion. This is a scam artist, fooling many good people for money and power. Absolutely not from God.

cont.

[ezekiel_37]

1Cor 14

Translation of the Word, to foreign countries.

A few ministries do this, as we are told to in 1Cor14

It is a gift of God if someone is able to speak more than one language. It is evidence that the Holy Spirit is there if the Gospel is being preached to gentile nations.

A English speaking preacher goes to a foreign country, and preaches in English to thousands of people. Since he cannot speak their language, he brings with him a believer who speaks both English and that foreign language.

The preacher preaches, and the interpreter repeats the message in the native tongue so that all who listen can understand.

This is the meaning of tongues. This is what most "tongues" speakers of today confuse 1Cor14 for. Absolutely the opposite of a confusing gibberish prayer language. Our God is not the God of Confusion.

There is no such instructions for an unknown prayer language. It is misreading the bible. The whole idea is nuts, confusion and discord. No edification, nor glory to God.

Oneway may want to hear my opinion here as well,

Now, the Cloven Tongue of Fire, as seen in Acts, was spoken by the Apostles, and ALL that heard the message understood it, no matter what language they themselves understood. They all heard it in their native tongue. This was the Holy Spirit in action, God speaking through them...and is the evidence of Him in them. ALL understood. No mumbojumbo.

Is it still around today? Not that I know of. But it will be at the very end of this age, in the Tribulation period.

in fact, this is the one and only time that it will be possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. That is, to 100% know Him and refuse to work for Him, lie to Him and others in His name.

When the election of God is delivered up to Satan (Antichrist), that election will speak the Cloven Tongue of Fire from God. It won't be them that speak but God's Holy Spirit that speaks through them. Not as in today's 'lead by the spirit', but actually GOD speaking. ALL will understand the message that God gives us. This act will complete the Great Commission....and then the 7th trump happens and our Lord returns.

For one of these election to refuse to do this for God, (allow Him to speak through them) that is unforgivable, the only unforgivable sin, and is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.


We can read of an example of this in Act5 with Ananias and his wife Saffira.

[ezekiel_37]

I will add....


I know many Pentecostals. I love them, and they are some of the best people that I know.

I know that they have a love for God, and want to feel His Holy Spirit.

We can all get the feeling, if we are in the right mind set. It is a feeling. It is goosebumps and joy. We can experience the feeling if we watch a movie and we get an emotional response from it.

Now, the Holy Spirit is available, but not from chanting gibberish. And the feeling one gets from receiving the Holy Spirit is much stronger than Goosebumps.

in His service
c

[oneway]

ezekiel_27,

I'm pretty sure that I didn't state my beliefs one way or another about tongues that are used today.
I noticed you brought up Benny Hinn. I've descerned sometime ago that Benny Hinn is not of the Lord. I've pretty much discerned this about 95% of these pastors, teachers, evangelists I see
on tv. Let's consider arron for a moment. We all here know him. He just posted on this thread today. We all know that he claims to speak in tongues. So using those 3 conclusions that I came to in post #12 at the end, which one of these fits arron?
I'd also be interested to see which conclusion arron thinks fits himself.

Also, do penecostals believe that speaking in tongues is evidence of the Holy Spirit?
What if no one speaks in tongues or possess any of these spiritual gifts? Do penecostals feel this is evidence that one doesn't have the Holy Spirit?
Confusing isn't it? I'm just trying to understand what they believe and why.

[ezekiel_37]

Hi oneway,

my handle is 37 not 27, but no prob.

Arron (who I really do like) is under the impression that there is a unknown prayer language. He is also under the impression that a minister can be preaching and say halllashabookana, and that it is a message from God.

As for your question...

-Your third example just doesn't exist.

-I also find it hard to believe that one can have the Holy Spirit and be possessed at the same time.

Saying you have God doesn't mean that you have Him. Many give Him lip service but do not live the Message.

So, that leaves only one.


I already know what Arron will say. I don't mean to offend Arron, but he is very young in his scholarship abilities.

But we do agree on the milk of the Word.

in His service
c

[turtle]

Ezekiel,
have you ever you ever meet people who could not read music but could play the old gospel hymns by hear. Never took a music lesson. Some claim it is a gift of God and rightly so but others also have the talent and know not God.

If you look in Acts two it doesn't say if their was interpeter or not in fact it said the Spirit gave utterance. Utterance is an interesting word take time to look it up. Not Man ability to learn but God's ability to instruct someone to speak as they yield. Utterance mean to give permission to speak or allow one to speak. There is a differencewhen one speaks as God gives them the ability and then when someone learns a langauge and God uses it to minister in a foreign land. Both God given but not necessarily the same way. One learned and one not learned.

I can train a dog to do tricks if I have patience but unless i give the command he would sit,play dead or fetch. I can take another dog that maybe only with the tone of my voice he will come running without a treat in my hand. Another dog however I might have to bribe to come take a bone from my hand. Bad illustration but it will work. God gave ability on the day of Pentecost it was not a hearse language. Remember this verse.

Acts 2:7 KJV
(7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

I serious doubt if Christ taught them all those languages for the special day of Pentecost to spread the gospel. God can still do that today because He is the Same, yesterday today and forever.

I wonder if you ever consider writting either of these tv ministers and use the verse in I Corinthians concerning confusion and tell them you confuss me and many others who hear you preach and do you realize what God's word says concerning this. I do not even know if it go across teh ministers desk but you know a petition might help among Christian people. This may sound like a bizzare idea but it might actually get their attention. See some of these minister preach the gospel but yes they do cause confusion some do not know the word as well as they should. Maybe if Christians everywhere would speak up in one accord then something might be done. But remember it first starts with on letter then if no results start a petition. Why Think of how rebuke in the church should began. With one person speaking to the person then two or three and then the church.

[ezekiel_37]

Hi Turtle,

actually I can't read music (fluently) anymore, I have forgotten how, but I knew as a kid.....recorder...lol


But I see what you mean.


I see things as you have said above.

The Pentecostal tongue was given by God, and not learned at all.


I know this to be true.



1Cor14 has NOTHING to do with ACTS2. It is for later, for us to spread the Gospel to the nations. Acts2, had multiple nations of people gathered in one place.


Acts2 was the Gift of God's Cloven Tongue. God spoke.



1Cor14 is man speaking with translators.


As for those ministries,

if people want to believe them, have at it. I can only do a little, and I have no interest in sending then a letter. They are well beyond the reach of a little servant like me. They need BIG servant or the Master Himself to deal with them. No superpreacher is going to listen to some guy on a computer up in Canada....lol


but I too am starting a web site, so you never know.

In His service
c

(Message edited by ezekiel_37 on April 19, 2007)

[turtle]

Ezekiel you sell yourself or God short. david was little and yet God used him to defeat a giant. Have you forgotten. I pray that your site will glorify Jesus. And bring hope to the lost and dying world. May God bless you.
turtle

[ezekiel_37]

Thanks Turtle, as I do yours.

In my present position, I can not affect them or their ministries, but possibly in the future.

Peace to you in Christ
c

[oneway]

you stated: "Hi oneway,

my handle is 37 not 27, but no prob."

Sorry, ezekiel_37, it was a typo. I can see where 27 would not be appropriate for anyone's handle, considering it's discussing Tyrus.
I'll try to be more careful in the future with your handle.

[hillariousharry]

Ez 37 said

if people want to believe them, have at it. I can only do a little, and I have no interest in "sending then a letter. They are well beyond the reach of a little servant like me. They need BIG servant or the Master Himself to deal with them. No superpreacher is going to listen to some guy on a computer up in Canada....lol "

Turtles response(posting 1451) was a good one and right and corresponds to Scriptural principles.

Your quote Ezekiel seems to be contradictory in that you readily believe in the life changing Word of God in the Scriptures, yet minimise that possibility in your own witness being used by God.

Your posting is not a good witness in terms of our Lord's ability to use us powerfully in the here and now...yes in 2007. If you, as you do, show your respect for and belief in the Word of God, then your posting shows itself up big time in putting down the ability of God to use you within the David and Goliath principle.

Your reasoning doeth the enabling Power of God little justice and letteth Him down.

HH

(Message edited by hillariousharry on April 22, 2007)

[ezekiel_37]

Maybe I worded my response wrong.

I was not limiting my power through God, but rather putting things in perspective.

Those for mentioned leaders have not only heard all the criticism before, but certainly wouldn't listen to a letter, from a person outside the denomination, who is fully aware that God is the one who has closed the ears and eyes of many on purpose.

If they want deception, they'll get it.

Rapture
Unknown Tongues / prayer language
Any dream/vision that just doesn't line up
New age Religion

whatever,


These are the leaders, and they are deceived.

So, instead of casting pearls before swine, I shake the dust from my shoes and plant seeds where they may be accepted....

from those searching for and sharing truth.

Not to the heads of Multi Million people denominations/churches.


If God was to give me a platform to reach Millions, I would certainly accept it, but I still wouldn't talk negatively about individual churches, or denominations but rather about the doctrine and practices behind them.


CD and BH are NOT going to even see a supposed letter, as I could effect (through His power)more people here (at the moment), and more would see and explore the possibility of truth about Tongues right here at factnet and other forums than in an unread pile of criticism.


and they told two people, and they told two people, and so on, and so on, and so on.



I guess I am just not lead to do so Harry.



There are other people, people that are actually IN the Pentecostal faith, (because I am not) that know the truth, and they should be the ones to contact said ministers...and work inside their faith.

That's my opinion.

I could be wrong. I am human.

God plants us all where we are needed.




in His service
c

[turtle]

ezekiel,

I am sorry but will you retracted this statment because it looks like you have more power then God. Sure sign of the anti Christ.<font color="ff0000">

Maybe I worded my response wrong.

I was not limiting my power through God, but rather putting things in perspective. </font><font color="0000ff">

I think you meant and hope you did that you were not limiting God power through yourself. God ability to do mighty works in your life. It sounds like you are trying to claim you give God power. Are you tryihg to be a devil today.

Come ezekiel fix the sentence. You can do better. </font>

[turtle]

And ezekiel it is not about being pentecostal or another group it is about speaking the truth because you claim Christ is Lord. I don't claim to be really any denomination but I find myself worshipping these days with pentecostals but the longer I stay the more I realize I am just a Christian that likes to worship with them. I am probably never be full pentecostal in their eyes. As Christians one must stand up to the truth as God lays it on the heart.

[hillariousharry]

Ezekiel - I see what you mean. Thanx.

Turtle - I was born into a pentecostal environment and subsequently was a pastor within such.

My main era there was from the 50's to the late 70's......after questioning for myself (having been what I called manipulated into believing that to seriously question was inadvisable should my faith be weakened) I have different views now which enable me to own faith in the heart which is far more healthy and not following the Scriptural interpretations of any church set up afraid to challenge( being freelance works well for me).

But then fellowship is not only gathering in a church building; rather sitting with a brother/sister on a park bench sharing. How stereotyped some Xians have become based on the "gathering together not being forsaken" bit. And often as they do meet week by week the relationships are false ( in fact often one finds fellowship with a non xian more edifying cos it's more real and close).

Probably my old time associates and friends may view me as having strayed. But for me the day I independently delved deeper and realised that AOG - UK were not necessarily right on their biblical interpretations about tongues, meant a realisation that our Lord's Salvation in my heart was independent of affiliation to a Movement.

In comparison to those days, I now take a more liberal view....and whilst I see "tongues" as important in Scripture and open to varying viewpoints, I dont view it as crucial to one's Xian life. If God wills, as He blesses with His Holy Spirit with tongues, then so be it...if not then fine....no such thought of 2nd rate Xian enters into it as AOG appeared to think and possibly does still today, in my view.

But keep up the fierce arguments about tongues. All good stuff; healthy for the mind too.

On a lighter note when I entered the AOG ministry I had never (and never since ..although my heart has always been open)spoken in tongues. Those former "receiving/waiting" meetings were, for me not user friendly, with well meaning people standing over yer breathing down yer neck telling you to stop speaking in english and go for tongues. That was well meaning hype and not the way to do things... Shame on me for falsely signing up to the AOG ministry when the AOG statement of faith adheres to their so called "initial evidence". To this day I believe that AOG have acted in such a pedantic way on this and I guess still do...yet one could say that they have entertained certain things, which has caused much division...e.g. Government of 12, which in my view is no more than a Movement set up by people and nothing more...so sad when one realises the hurt caused to so many. And not to mention pastors and leaders in that Movement who have, over the years lorded over congregations, resulting in diversion and displaced Xians. A need to a spirit of repentance within the Movement. In fact my sister told me recently that she recalls a pastor actually saying sorry publicly for such.

I may have digressed ...but from the heart and just meself which is all that matters.

HH

(Message edited by hillariousharry on April 22, 2007)

(Message edited by hillariousharry on April 22, 2007)

[hillariousharry]

turtle...I identified well with you last posting.

Kindred spirits! lol (on what you say....lol...dont wish you to think that I regard you like me generally.....there can only be one HH....the mad professor they call me. But appy I am!!

HH

[turtle]

I think all have the potential of falling to hype in the church especially when they rely on hype for the sign. I found a great little verse today. Oh I must share and so I will.

<font color="ff0000">Acts 13:47-49 KJV
(47) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
(48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(49) And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
</font><font color="000000">
No tongues HH what does that say to you. Boy where was that verse when I needed it twenty years ago when i meet first group of pentecostals that tried desperately to claim I was missing something.

I believe desperately churches need to educate and desperately need to educate some more. Even though I do believe tongues can be for today it can also be conterfeit. And knowing the difference and understanding the difference is important. It like this you can not force God Spirit to fall in or on a church, God does has He wills. God's will. God's will is for today has well. We must just adhere to God's still small voice and speak when told to speak in whatever way He choose trusting that God will open hearts of the hearer.
turtle</font>

[hillariousharry]

Turtle - yes I do agree with you.

I recall my father, pastor in Elim church, often uttering messages in tongues with interpretions, as per I Cor. Also my mum who was very quiet and the last person you would expect to hear within a church service. But I do recall her one Sunday being blessed and praising in tongues.

I know the reality of the faith they held and that they were no fanatical cranks.

But I still do question and like you worry about the reality of tongues at times.

I was touched by the last few lines of your last post...to me it provides the perfect balance in all this, yet not in anyway watering down the reality of Scripture.

As a young man I earnestly sought our Lord for all that He wished to give me to be an effective Xian. I knew I was filled with the Holy Spirt, yet no tongues accompanying. So my reasoning here is that God gives as He wills.

HH

HH

[ezekiel_37]

I don't have the foggiest idea of how you came up with that one turtle!!!

Huh!!!

You said,

<font color="ff0000">I am sorry but will you retracted this statement because it looks like you have more power then God. Sure sign of the anti Christ. </font><font color="119911">

originally I said;

</font><font color="0000ff">Maybe I worded my response wrong.

I was not limiting my power through God, but rather putting things in perspective. </font>
<font color="ff0000">

I think you meant and hope you did that you were not limiting God power through yourself. God ability to do mighty works in your life. It sounds like you are trying to claim you give God power. Are you trying to be a devil today. </font>

How do I say this nicely,


I think that there must be a translation / language barrier here. Is English your first language? I assume not. You have misinterpreted what I said. You definitely didn't understand what I said.




Anyway, will you recant agreeing to some extent that Our God is weak?

Will you agree to the Psalm 22 reference




and turtle,


I have given you my understanding of the instructions for spreading the gospel to other speaking peoples (gentiles) given in 1Cor14.


You still say...tongues is for today....


can you explain your view then...?


Do you believe that when a person speaks this unknown language, that it is God speaking?

Is that how you see it?




Harry,



You wrote;

<font color="119911">I know the reality of the faith they held and that they were no fanatical cranks</font>

Yes, I know there are some good people that get caught up in the emotion. They are not all fanatical of course, but it just isn't scriptural.

Can you find one place in the Old Test. that has an example of God speaking to people in an unknown language? There is none.


<font color="0000ff">As a young man I earnestly sought our Lord for all that He wished to give me to be an effective Xian. I knew I was filled with the Holy Spirit, yet no tongues accompanying. So my reasoning here is that God gives as He wills</font>

My reasoning would be (honestly) that it doesn't exist the way they teach it, and you lacked nothing, rather didn't participate in a fake emotional response.

in His service
c

[hillariousharry]

Whilst I respect your firm belief Ezekiel, I feel the need to keep more open minded particularly in the light of Scripture, which can be interpreted differently. And also with a sincere concern of not grieving the Holy Spirit ( please dont view this as holier than thou...I'm not one of them and detest such).

My parents didnt get caught up in the emotion and I know that what they experienced was real.My mother for example was the quietness person in pentecostal circles one would ever known and yet suddenly she began praising God in other tongues. I can never dispute that.

But then I still agree that emotions can cause inbalance and concerning experiences. I have little time for worked up so called worship and feel concerned that numerous Xians are perhaps "mesmerised".

And so the debate goes on. lol

Have a good day with chcukles galore.

HH

(Message edited by hillariousharry on April 23, 2007)

[turtle]

Poor Ezekiel will you go back and read the thread again I never said God was weak I explain what I said and it was Aaron comment that threw you.

He implied that some people think God is weak. Now stop blaming me for your lack of education on english. And yes english is the only lanuguage i can speak and the only one I speak fluently with a little hill billy thrown in. Yet I try and refrain from use because I think it would confuse you. Now get off the Me saying Christ was weak.

If Christ was weak how did he carry our burdens, our grief and our sorrow, took a beating and still carried that cross. My God is not weak yours might be.

YOu have a language barrier all right you must speak another language.

I maybe out some I am sick and got work to do.

And H. H go to the bottom of the pentecostal thread called Pentecostals are full of holes that is the thread poor ezekiel is talking about. He is so miss guided. If He learn english he would understand me and aaron quite well.

P.s. Ezekiel, I do not wish to argue but to bring peace to this board. Debate is healthy if debating ove the correct issues and done with informative view on scripture.

P.s H. H. see you seem to know the difference and I have no doubt your family did too. Emotional work up can be a hazzard but so is emotions during a football game. I rather ahve emotion in church then go to a game and wish to punch someones lights out because they tackles and injured my player.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Turtle:

Quoting: "P.s. Ezekiel, I do not wish to argue but to bring peace to this board. Debate is healthy if debating ove the correct issues and done with informative view on scripture."
End quote.

Would you like to debate/discuss faked infantile gibberish, my dear? Scripturally, of course.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Dear Mr. hillariousharry

Quoting: "The discussion above does prove my view that Scripture is open to differing interpretations.

Whilst I respect your firm belief Ezekiel, I feel the need to keep more open minded particularly in the light of Scripture, which can be interpreted differently."
End quote.

The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is the one true witness. If he is telling Mr. Arron one thing, M(r)(s). Turtle something else, Mr. Ezekiel something else, Mr. Hilariousharry something else and me something entirely different, is he really the true witness or just some fool? Which is grieving the Holy Spirit the most? compromise with Sataan or telling someone the truth?

[arron]

tatm it is probally because you are deceived and possible list to demonic forces who are trying to tak over your mind as for my self and turtle and ezekiel i feel we are all saved and am or at least i do, pray that you will get saved, born again.

[hillariousharry]

TATM - I wont respond in arguing out your last posting. In the light of the knowledge you have endeavoured to impart over previous postings, really on this occasion may I say that you show yourself up.

Your last para particularly is indicative of Spiritual ignorance and experience of our Lord's faith in the heart.

Again having seen you on video, I cringe at your approaches. Really you need to review.

HH

[hillariousharry]

arron - on a lighter note:

May I make a statement: lol

I too am Saved without a shadown of a doubt.

HH

PS oh how left out I felt. lol

[turtle]

atam I feel sorry for you. One you ignor the fact that their is a right and wrong way to interpetation. I have no problem with someone interpetation if they are viewing the Bible as a whole and are examining consistency of the Bible historically and also spiritually. You seem to do neither.

Two whether you read old or new testament if you call God a liear you are blasyme. Which means the truth is not in you. So that means you are a devil as stated above. Can their be hope for you has long as you breath. You need to come to repentance. Turning from evil that says God is a liar but that He is truth. The HOly Spirit is the Spirit of truth.

I rebuke the power of satan in your life ATAM and pray that the message of the gospel of Jesus will reach to depth of your soul. I pray this in Jesus precious name amen and I pray all Christians will pray with me for atam.

[ezekiel_37]

Turtle said...

<font color="ff0000">Poor Ezekiel will you go back and read the thread again I never said God was weak I explain what I said and it was Aaron comment that threw you. </font>

Sorry turtle, but no it was not.

WE were speaking about hard questions that you didn't think were answerable, and I said that they were.

I IMPLIED that SOME people think that God is weak because of Christ's last words on the cross... but in reality Christ was teaching from the cross and pointing us to Psalm 22.

And about the fact that Christ wanted the CUP to pass from Him...and that God's (Father's) Will be done - at that time, not the Son's, because Christ would have forgave them all. Even the ones who were evil. The CUP is the Wrath Christ returns with.

And then you said about Arron...

<font color="ff0000">He implied that some people think God is weak.
</font>
No turtle, YOU said you agreed somewhat....that God had a weak moment or two. And I can re post your answer if you wish? Don't blame Arron for your admission.

<font color="ff0000">Now stop blaming me for your lack of education on english. </font>

You are turning nasty, turtle... show your Christianity.

<font color="ff0000">And yes english is the only lanuguage i can speak and the only one I speak fluently with a little hill billy thrown in. Yet I try and refrain from use because I think it would confuse you. </font>

You did confuse me with your accusations and belittlement. I thought we were going to study together and learn from one another. I guess not!

<font color="ff0000">Now get off the Me saying Christ was weak.</font>

I would but you said it, and meant it. If you recant, I will 'get off' you saying Christ was weak.

I was trying to teach you 2 things...
that God isn't weak at all. Not even once or twice.

I am trying to tell you that The Father did not forsake His Son.

I was pointing you to Psalm 22.

I was pointing you to The 7 vials/cups or wrath that Christ returns with.

You should have received that info, from the Bible...but you have not (as of yet).

And you did not yet explain your understanding of how tongues is for today???

Do you mean babyl language, babyl prayer language,a babyl Word from God, just babyling,


or did you mean something else.


God doesn't babyl.



in His service
c

[turtle]

Ezekiel I see what you problem is now. You are nit picking what I say line by line as if you are looking for a problem. Maybe you should read what I said in context of what I was saying. You should know better ezekiel.



okay get this straight in the ocntext what I meant was God is fully human and fully God Ezekiel. Meaning that he even physically would of felt our weakness. Not meaning that He was Weak. His body would of been going limp at this point near death getting ready for the spiritual journey to save mankind from hell. His body would of felt the physical death and also spiritual death we has men and women would feel. He would feel every bit of what we go through. Yet this would not make Him weak.

Now do you get what I am saying ezekiel. Next time don't read so much between lines look at the context of a sentence. You over react.

[turtle]

To answer your question Ezekiel about tongues as being for today. Here it goes and if you fail to hear you are missing it again and again.

tongues for today same reason back in the book of Acts for spreading the Gospel as God enables. To glorify God if their is interpetation. Interpetation needs to be given or it leaves with confusion. And this is your whole hang up ezekiel. YOu can not understand that in churches alot of times interpetation is given. But on tv i have never seen it done and probably never will.

Here is the point God enables God is glorified. GEt it no matter what the gift tongues or otherwise. And if Ezekiel you claim to have gift of the Holy Spirit that you can use at your will then you make it your ability. I am sorry for you you use God if you are doing it in your ability. You do it to build yourself up and not the kingdom of God.

[hillariousharry]

Turtle - I think you are spot on in your last post.

HH

[turtle]

Spot???? more abbreviations i assume.

[ezekiel_37]

So you guys believe in Babyl language, that is supposedly words from God?

ok fine. Have at it.

Absolute Nonesense.


God is not confusion. When God speaks, all understand, pure understanding, no interpreter is needed when it is truly of God. Seen in Acts2 among other places.

Translation of one KNOWN language into another KNOWN language by way of gifted interpretors ... ie french to english....
russian to arabian....
spanish to phillipino...
as explained in 1Cor 14


not confusion to wisdom......


as you claim.




This was not to nit pic but rather to edify.
Your website was not reflective of your position...had it been, I would have brought up some issues earlier.


I am not mean or negative, turtle, but I will stand up for truth. I don't like it when folks lie and say ... I didn't say that...

when they clearly did... and It can be documented easily.


Don't teach what you guess at.


God knows english quite well, and can utalize it anytime. He doesn't need to CONFUSE the message with babyl, so I know that you are incorrect.


THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO OLD TESTEMENT EXAMPLE.


SO, I CONCLUDE THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS FLAWED AND DOES NOT GLORIFY GOD, BUT RATHER MOCKS HIM (WHETHER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT).


I AM TRYING TO HELP YOU, BUT YOU DON'T SEE IT.

God has closed the eyes and ears of many in this last generation. Perhaps you are one of these.

so, according to your thoughts, Psalm 22 isn't prophetic of Christ's crucifiction, Christ had weak moments, God turned away from His Son (lol) and God can only communicate with speacial people who speak snake...babyl....





I guess if you really want it (deception), have at it.


It is hard to be nicey nice when confronted with a theology as yours. It is destructive and full of evil spirits, murmering to you and leading otherwise good souls down the wrong path. If I can help at all, then it is worth getting a little hot around the collar for,

standing up for truth.


in His service
c

[turtle]

ezekiel you really have a problem with truth. If i speak in spanish or sing a song in spanish during a church service and I know spanish it does no one any good unless english is spoken as well to those in the mist if they speak only english and have no understanding of spanish.

Why do you persist in becoming crazy on here when you and I both had already come to terms on these things. Why does it upset you so much that soemone spoke in tongues and their be interpetor. Does it make you feel like you have not had the privilege of an event. Think about this walk outside if you can if you have no trees or grass outside your home go to the nearest park look at thenature around you. Is that not enough sign of God is a creator around you look in the mirrow and see God created you.
These are all signs of God. Tongues does no good unless it edifies9builds up) the church. Just like someone preaching or teaching does no good unless it builds up the church or helps those that know grow.

God gives signs of spiritual growth through preaching and teaching when people get saved and desire to know God and have a closer relstionahip with God.

Spreading the gospel whether in tongues a language to foreign fields or in english in a church or in a language spoken by the Holy Spirit in church with interpetation can be beautiful but if done in a place of a none believer i guarantee you will never hear what you are searching for and never see it either.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I will post the origins of pentecostal tongues before leaving for a week or two. Faked infantile gibberish is more about the cash register than anything else.

[turtle]

Don't bother with something you are only looking from the eyse of man and not they eyes of faith.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Turtle:

So not only are you singlurly qualified to interpret scripture but also the only one to hold the truth? Is that an awful weight on your shoulders?

oops by the by, pentecostal tongues were started by the homosexual Charles Fox Parham. You are right. I will be quoting the vision of man and not faith. hehehehehehehe

[skooter942000]

aNoThEr tHrEaD concerning this issue?


- CHRISTIANS DO NOT BABEL-(on).

- (or they should NOT)!!!!



Did CHRIST?

- (Scriptures please)




TONGUES means LANGUAGE , (nothing more).



If the BODY is not Edified, (it is confusion).
- And BABY TALK (IS CONFUSION).

CONFUSION
CONFUSION
CONFUSION



GOD'S SPIRIT IS NOT PRESENT ,
- (IF THIS IS GOING ON).


- A servant cannot serve TWO MASTERS. (At once)

If SOMEONE is BABEL-(ING)-on,
GOD'S SPIRIT has left - [the "one Speaking"].

And if someone jumps up and says this is what it means , this is the translation,
- (GOD has left that one TOO)!!!




The TONGUE (Language) spoken on Pentecost Day,
needed no interpreter.
(GOD , Through "HIS HOLY SPIRIT"), does the interpreting. (Not 'man')




- ALL PEOPLES CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD.
- (in their NATIVE LANGUAGE). = [Acts 2]


Down to the very Dialect from where they were raised.




- Why is someone so hard pressed, to prove this LIE?

(...it can't be DONE).


1Cr 13:11
When I was a child,
I spake as a child,
I understood as a child,
I thought as a child:

...but when I became a man,
.....I put away childish things.


Man = An ADULT male



Posted with "LOVE"
- Seasoned W/Salt



Don <*))><

[ezekiel_37]

OK Turtle,

I have a few last questions, because I feel you are still not being clear enough.




<font color="aa00aa">If a preacher was speaking to the congregation,
and started to speak in </font><font color="119911">unknown tongues</font> <font color="aa00aa"> (what I call babyl-gibberish)...

...and then someone listening in the congregation spoke up and said what they believe to be an "interpretation" of that "unknown language" (babyl-gibberish)that the preacher spoke,</font>



is that OK to you?
Is that something God is For or Against?
Or do you think that it doesn't matter?

Also, do you believe in the Rapture of the church being before the 7th trump...as Arron does?


If you answer these questions for me, I think that I will be satisfied with my understanding of your theology.

I wish Peace in Christ to all who earnestly seek Him, even if their views are different than mine.
c

[turtle]

I really dislike using examples of a situation Ezekiel. I heard someone speak in tongues it sound like cherokee language. Only reason I knew was because i have heard some cherokee before. But though I do not understand the language itself without interpetation it is a language none the less. An interpetation is given. It lines up with scripture. Yes it can be faked but guess what there was more then one interpetation and both said the same thing. Did it strengthen the unity of the church no doubt it did. Was it done in Biblical order yes it was. Did the one speaking know cherokee i seriously doubt it but it is what was spoken. Whether you believe or not this is the point God can do anything He desires and He does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. If he did over 2000 years ago can he do it today? God is consistent on what He will and will not do. I trust God to do the impossible in my life because he already has. That is called faith. Faith is not something learned in a book it is only through living. but it should line up with God's word.

That is my stance. Now on the rapture of the church i belive that there is a rapture the hour unknown to me as well as I do not know the time. Do I believe we are in Last days yes and I can use that term loosely because Christ himself said last days over two thousand years ago. I won't put a time of the rapture but many christian of different denominations and inside denominations have different views on this. I am no exception. I believe whenever Christ calls I need to be ready. when He returns all will know Him. All will understand who Jesus is.

That is my personal stand. I also feel we need to be winning lost souls for Christ and be busy not just ready.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). ezekiel_37:

Keep asking nit picking questions. Each time Ms. Turtle has to resort to more double speak to answer. You will never change the mind of the deceived. But the many who come to lurk will see the truth.

The more Ms. Turtle has to deal with precise situations, the more she exposes the lunacy. Keep up the good work, lurker everywhere thank you.

[turtle]

TATM -

Despite what you will think what i hope they will see even though ezekiel and i do not agree always they will our passion of our faith the love of God and they will even if they don't agree with everything they will see ezekiel and me have a general respect for each other without coming to blows.

And maybe you think Ezekiel expose lunacy in the way you preceive things others will see Christ and faith and alot more then that between to people.Experience and facts if not Biblical base have baring when people read. I do not like to use actual cases because you likes to destroy it with mayhem and chaos. You think it is funny but God's people despite denominations do not think it is funny even if they do not agree with me. It is truly said that people today can not see that God still moves in people lives. That is denying God that is apostasy.

[ezekiel_37]

Hi turtle,

You said;
<font color="ff0000">He is the same yesterday, today and forever. If he did over 2000 years ago can he do it today? God is consistent on what He will and will not do.</font>

I guess I wanted to know about babyl talk, not cherokee, or latin or spanish or french. But again you did not adress that. I am not sure if you are avoiding the topic all together (so you don't make waves).

Can you show me an example of the 'cherokee' example in scripture? You correctly said God is the same, so where is our example?

The example you gave doesn't line up with what I have read.


So, it wasn't babyl gibberish, but was a language, cherokee,.

Are you saying that this cherokee language was spoken from God-through someone?


But yet the congregation did not understand it?

Only a few people there understood it because they knew cherokee!

But most didn't know cherokee, so they didn't understand it, right?

So, my question is, if everyone didn't understand it, how could it have been from God?




I would say that demons exist, as Christ taught.

I bet they know cherokee.

We are to test the spirits, for there are other spirits than the Holy Spirit, deceiving and lying spirits, and this is what I "see" happening in many churches.

If it doesn't line up, then it is not from God.

And since not all understood the message, how could it be from God, as we have NO example of that in the Word?


What say you.





and about rapture, do you teach on it?

Do you belive that the gathering of the saints to Christ happens AT the 7th trump, or BEFORE the 7th trump?


in His service
c

[turtle]

Ezekiel,

Peace to you and no more discussion no matter what I say you will judge and you could be judging God. I believe you are, and you believe you aren't.

But God created everything did He not. So if you judge what God creates and what God does to ring people closer to him you blasyme. I have seen the work of God in my own life and my own desire to share Christ, not speaking in tongues but teh Gospel of the love of Jesus. And you seem to desire to tear down all that you do not understand and do not wish to understand.

To answer your question on Revalation I have give you an answer. What I say I do not know when he will erturn and I do not wish to predict it either. Sounds like you are looking for a prediction. I am not a prophet. I read revalations and I glean from it what ever God speaks to my heart about but I do not try and analyze every verse like some. My focus is living for Jesus and sharing the gospel that others might know Him. My focus is not tongues or even any of the Gifts but Jesus saves. I do not teach that one must speak in tongues and I do not feel that one must. But I am open to it. Second I teach people the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth as well as our Comforter. Both Biblical. I share how the Holy Spirit works in the life of a believer enabling them to witness about Jesus.

What do you teach ezekiel do you teach bigotry and hatred for those not like you. Do you teach intolerance. If so you are not my brother in Christ and definitely not in Christ. I see bigotry in your post because you do not wish to understand or agree to disagree.

May Peace come your way Ezekiel.

[ezekiel_37]

So what you are saying then is


it is OK to speak gibberish and call it a gift from God.


it is OK to NOT test the spirits, as per our instructions.


as long as people are SAYING that they love Christ it is OK, even if they follow an example that IS NOT in the bible? (isn't that lip service?)..for many will say LORD, LORD, and not get in.




I asked you a simple question. Do you believe that this Cherokee language spoken, was it GOD speaking through someone?

It is a simple enough question, and I am trying to get an honest response from you. But you won't give one. It is not being Christian if you avoid the answers.

God gave us the Word, and in it all the examples we need. Yours is not there, so, I ask you how you know that it is God speaking?


I am not judging God. That is ridiculous. I'm sure you do not even know what it is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I say this because of your claim that I am doing so.


By the way, I am discerning your doctrine, not judging you. You want to be a teacher, with your site, and here...we are all responsible for what we teach, and His judgement begins at the house of God, where His Word is taught.

I am actually quite open minded. I have said that I have close friends that worship Pentecost-ally. I am not judging their heart or your heart. I think that it is obvious that you want to help others and further God's work.

Imagine if you did so in vain. That is what I am attempting to find out.

I see a great deception in false tongues churches. The people will believe what ever is said to them, without proof. That is why ALL understand if it is from God. That is PROOF POSITIVE if all understand. If all don't, then it is not from God, and I don't want any of my friends getting duped by evil/familiar spirits and the devil.


So, what you see as bigotry, I see as using the bible to challenge your theology....to see if it is correct. If it is indeed counterfeit, then I have a duty to speak up against it. I don't want you falling for it or teaching this falseness to others.



So, I am glad that you do not look for tongues as proof, but I am saddened that you look to them at all, or even leave room for the possibility of it being from God. I am also saddened that you don't see the relevance of Psalm 22.


I never asked a question about Revelation exactly, but rather on the gathering of the Saints to Christ. This is another area where you are vague. Being unsure is fine, as long as you don't teach it as truth.


If anyone is looking to escape the Tribulation, then they need to be woken up and told the truth.

Christ teaches us that He wouldn't return until after the antiChrist. He said this. Paul teaches that it is not until the LAST trump, which is the 7th.
I asked because MOST Pentecostals are rapturists.

cont.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Ms. Turtle/hilarousharry:

I offered a well documented response to the lunacies of pentecostalism. The best you can offer is innuendo, pathetic lies, and character assassinations. You really are a pentecostal.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Ms. Turtle &amp; Mr. Arron:

Please allow us to stick with the issue at hand. The issue being dealt with is the lunacies of pentecostalism.

Side tracking a train means the main track will not handle the load. You both have proven a one track mind. It would be foolish for me to side track your train now.

[oneway]

"Ever hear of the lotto? Pro ballgames? Auto racing? They all attract millions praising
in one accord. Does that prove any thing?"


These are bad examples. I've been to ballgames and believe me, not everyone is praising in one accord. Some are actually screaming and cussing, while others are shouting for joy. Doesn't sound like one accord to me.

[turtle]

I don't not like or watch murray. But i seen him once and decide my tv was better on another channel.

[turtle]

Arron,
Do not worry about it I do not know if i had ever really said. But anyway i tried to leave a message earlier and could not.

anyway Bible Study is going goo. have you taken time to take a look at it on my site. Just curious.

turtle