FACTnet [Archive] - Factnet Forum

churchworker

05-04-2007, 12:06 AM

The reason why step 1 is needed is because so many atheists say there is an eternity of the past of cause and effects to discount God, and Step 1 proves them wrong. I don't think you are loony for overlooking this, just unconscientious. You misread the Proof. There is no reason to believe the ingenuity of the human race could not survive any of those previous devestations so that would be a none issue.

Your second presupposition is rejecting the Bible which says the saints are being perfected in Christ. You don't sound like a Christian.

The evidence is plainly scientific that nothing in nature happens all by itself (Step 2). There is always a cause. Nothing pseudo about that. As well, we do observe an exponential progression in conscience, e.g. no more child sacrifices and murder rate per capita continues to drop. Thus, there would not have been an eternity of the past of cause and effects (Step 1). Many other findings tell the tale. A non-Chritian will see other religions loving their enemies and appearing to have a transformed life, but it can be difficult to determine the tares from the wheat. Hence, we need some concrete proof like the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God which is nothing new under the sun, but succinctily provided here.

By the way, the universe is thought to be 13.7 billion years, not 16.

jayshawn

05-04-2007, 01:21 AM

"Since Jesus is fully proven and He said He is God"

Well this one is amusing...here's statement made of fact without showing any evidence/proof that "Jesus is fully proven". He is proven based off what????? Even IF he is proven so what...what does that prove...would you be making the mistake that Jesus Existed = Xtiananity is truth, God Exist, etc.??

Where exactly did Jesus say that he was God????

iamwhoiam

05-04-2007, 01:33 AM

jesus said "iam"

the pharisees said it was blasphamy.

he also said "the kingdom of heaven is within you".

he also said 'we are all gods"

i do not think that jesus ever said he was god.

churchworker

05-04-2007, 11:41 AM

Fully Proven (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3891#post3891)

The cause of our choice is that God made us in His image (Gen. 1.26,27) to be able to have the choice as sovereign beings.

But fallen from grace, man is steeped in sin and self, and as you know, sin leads to death. All sin needs to be punished. All sin and selfishness needs to be dealt with. There is no escaping consequence.

What mercy that God enters into His creation, provides His word of redemption to atone for sins for all, so that any that would receive Him may be saved and given a new life through resurrection of the spirit in man to be sensitive to things of God. Eternal life is not only eternal blessings, but it is also an ability to know God because the spirit in man has been regenerated with God's life.

Though we are all made in God's image, we are not all saved. Many are yet going to hell because they don't want salvation. They just don't care.

The annual redeaths of Orisis could not compare to the one-time for all sacrifice of Christ, our creator. To have to die again annually shows the ineffectiveness compared to the accomplished fact of cross of Christ.

To follow thine own self is selfish, for such a one does not realize he is a sinner that needs saving.

I could probably cite you over a hundred times Jesus said He is God in various ways. Here is another.

John 8.58 shows us what Jesus believed of Himself: Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!" or "Truly, truly, before Abraham was, I am." "Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad" (8.56). Observe the holy name of God - I AM in Exodus 3.14: God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" After Jesus said He was God, "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (v.59). According to Lev. 24.16, the law required the religious leaders put Jesus to death if He was falsely claiming to be God. Because they did not believe He was the one Abraham spoke of, they attempted to cast stones upon him. Today, men do the same thing to Jesus. "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death" (Lev. 24.16).

I am the bread of life (John 6.34); I am the light of the world (8.12,9.5); I am the gate (10.7); I am the good shepherd (10.11,14); I am the resurrection and the life (11.25); I am the way, the truth and the life (14.6); and I am the true vine (15.1). In every chapter Jesus' deity is revealed.

Uncreated created is proven in the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible-->Who is He?-->He is God of the Bible, because none can compare to Christ particularly-->Therefore, you need to be saved-->Consequently, you won't go to hell-->So come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior!

Amen.

(Message edited by Churchworker on May 04, 2007)

churchworker

05-04-2007, 11:56 AM

Clearly, Jesus is saying He is God. And that no man is a god.

"I and the Father are one" (John 10.30), Jesus states. He is not merely a good teacher - He is God. The religious leaders want to kill Jesus because their laws said anyone claiming to be God should die (Lev. 24.16). Nothing could persuade the religious leaders that Jesus' claim was true. John 10.33 reads - They replied, "Not for any good work, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, have made yourself God." When accused of this, Jesus responded by saying, "why do you call it blasphemy when the Holy One who was sent into the world by the Father says, `I am the Son of God'?" "Know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father", Jesus said (John 10.38).

Regarding men, leaders of the people were sometimes called gods. This is what Jesus meant when he said among you were once called gods, so why not believe in Him as being God? Strictly speaking though men are not gods, nor is that very well defined anyway. Whereas God of the Bible is very well defined with the foremost quality of beig the uncreated creator.

The Lord knows His Own people for it is we who have the kingdom inside of us which will be manifested outwardly in the 1000 year reign when Christ returns. As no one understands the Father, so no one will understand His disciples.

Matt. 11.27 reads, "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.]"

churchworker

05-04-2007, 12:02 PM

Jesus said He is "from everlasting" to indicate He is uncreated. You can't beat that, for that is the very definition of God.

The probable is not that truth is unreasonable, but that is unloved. Men are too selfish to accept satistfaction in doing only God's will. They want to do their own thing.

After a person has forsaken his natural longings he obtains a genuinely restful life. Formerly he had many desires. To satisfy them he planned, plotted and contrived, exhausting every ounce of his wisdom and power. His heart was in constant turmoil. While contriving, he agitated to attain what he desired. When defeated, he agonized because of failure to achieve. How the restful life eludes him! Furthermore, the person who has not yet abandoned what is his and surrendered to what is God’s cannot help but be affected by his surroundings. People’s capricious attitudes, changing environments, loneliness, and many other elements in the external world work to induce melancholia. This is quite a common trait among emotional saints. But natural desire can also arouse wrath in such a one. When externals go against his wish or do not turn out exactly as he prefers, when matters appear to be unjust and unreasonable to him, he becomes disturbed, anxious, and angry. These different emotional expressions are provoked by external causes. How easily one’s emotion can be stirred, perturbed, and wounded. One’s natural desire thus seeks out man’s love, respect, sympathy and intimacy; but if he fails to realize his desire he murmurs against heaven and cries out against men. Is there anyone exempt from such sorrow and grief? Living in this bitter world as we all do, can anyone realistically expect to have his desire fully realized? If this is impossible, then how can an emotional believer ever secure rest in life? He cannot. But that child of God who purely follows the spirit and seeks not his own pleasure is satisfied with what God gives to him: and his restlessness immediately ceases.

churchworker

05-04-2007, 12:05 PM

The Lord Jesus speaks to His disciples saying: “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls” (Matt. 11.29). The soul here alludes especially to the emotional part of our being. The Lord knows that His Own people must pass through many trials, that the heavenly Father is going to arrange for them to be lonely and misunderstood. As no one understands Him except the Father, so no one will understand His disciples (v.27). Jesus knows that the heavenly Father must permit many unpleasant occurrences to befall the believers in order that they may be weaned from the world. He also appreciates what the feelings in their souls will be like as they are put through the fire. For this reason He tells them in advance to learn from Him so that they may find rest for their emotion. Jesus is gentle: He is able to receive any treatment from men: He joyfully accepts the opposition of sinners. Jesus is likewise lowly: He heartily humbles Himself: He has no ambition of His Own. The ambitious are hurt, angry, and restless when they cannot obtain their wishes. But Christ at all times lives gently and humbly on earth; there is consequently no occasion for His emotion to boil and erupt. He teaches we should learn from Him, that we should be gentle and lowly as He is. He says for us to bear His yoke as a restraint upon ourselves. He bears a yoke too, even the yoke of God. He is satisfied with His Father’s will alone; as long as the Father knows and understands Him, why should He be concerned about the opposition of others? He is willing to accept the restrictions given him by God. He explains that we must bear His yoke, accept His restraint, do His will, and seek no freedom for the flesh. If this is done, then nothing can disturb or provoke our emotion. This is the cross. If anyone is willing to receive the cross of Christ and submit completely to the Lord, he shall find rest for his emotion.

This is none other than a satisfied life. The Christian cherishes nothing but God; henceforth he is satisfied with His will. God himself has filled his desire. He regards everything God has arranged or given, asked or charged him with, as good. If he can but follow the will of God his heart is satisfied. He seeks his own pleasure no longer, and not because of force but because God’s will has satisfied him. Since he is now filled, he has no more requests to make. A life such as this can be summed up in one word: satisfied. The characteristic of spiritual life is satisfaction—not in the sense of self-centeredness, self-sufficiency, or self-filling but in that of the person having found all his needs fully met in God. To him God’s will is the very best; he is satisfied. What else need he ask for? Only emotional Christians find fault with God’s arrangement and aspire to have more by conceiving numberless expectations in their hearts. But one who has allowed the Holy Spirit to operate deeply in him by the cross no longer yearns for anything according to himself. His desire is fulfilled already in God.

At this point the believer’s desire is totally renewed (this does not mean that thereafter there can be no failure); it is united with God’s desire. Not only is he, negatively, resisting the Lord no longer; but positively, he is delighting in His delight. He is not suppressing his desires; he is simply delighted with what God requires of him. If God desires him to suffer, he asks Him to make him suffer. He finds sweetness in such suffering. If God desires him to be afflicted, he willingly seeks such affliction. He loves affliction more than healing. If God desires to bring him low, he gladly cooperates with Him in bringing himself down. He delights now only in what God delights in. He covets nothing outside Him. He expects no uplifting if God does not so desire. He does not resist God but rather welcomes whatever He bestows, whether sweet or bitter.

churchworker

05-04-2007, 12:14 PM

Clearly, Jesus is not saying He is one with the Father in the sense of unity only, as Christians are in Christ, but His association with the Father is something greater, because the Father is uncreated and the Son is uncreated, that is, "from everlasting". Hence, the Trinity is what Jesus is talking about as regarding the way of the Lord (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thewayofthelord.htm).

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

churchworker

05-04-2007, 03:52 PM

Science shows us nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore the uncreated created who is Christ since none can compare to Him.

Science shows us that there is an exponential progression in consience so we would not still be sinning now if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects.

War in the name of religion was never tenable.

There is nothing you can do about the fact that Christ will return in Person just as He left when He steps down on the mount of olives (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7).

Since He created you, surely He will deal with you on all accounts.

churchworker

05-04-2007, 04:02 PM

Revelation 18 (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_18.htm)

Rev 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For by the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen; and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her wantonness.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

18.2 God has destroyed religious Rome through the beast and ten horns (17.16). Now He himself will come to destroy the city of Rome. Hence, this mighty proclamation. This event is also foretold in the Old Testament. In Isaiah 13.21 we read this: “And wild goats shall dance there” (the Septuagint renders it as: “and demons shall dance there”). Though the scene in Isaiah 34.13-15 refers directly to Edom, it is nevertheless quite similar to what is announced here in 18.2.

18.3 This verse speaks of three things:

(1) the nations (“By the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen”). See also 17.2, which, because of what we have said earlier, indicates that religious Rome is in view.

(2) The kings of the earth (they “committed fornication with her”). See 17.2 and 18.9, which in view of what has been said previously, show that both religious and political Rome are involved.

(3) The merchants of the earth (they “waxed rich by the power of her wantonness”). See 18.15, which points specifically to the commercial aspect of Rome.

By reading and considering the last clause of 18.3 we may see God’s view on commerce. There will not be any trading in the new heaven and the new earth. Trade prospers here because of luxury. Here commerce is a catering to personal gain as well as to men’s luxury. It apparently is not a commendable activity in the sight of God.

18.4 “Her” means the city of Rome as well as religious Rome. According to prophetic history, after the seven bowls have been poured out there follow lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake (16.17,18). Then, God remembers the great city of Babylon and He also then sends great hail to the earth (16.19,21). Chapter 17 tells us that Babylon is that great harlot, for upon her forehead is written Mystery, Babylon the Great. It also shows us her past history, the appearing of Antichrist, and her end (vv. 1-8). Chapter 18 again informs us how Babylon will fall.

iamwhoiam

05-04-2007, 04:42 PM

since there is still sin (e.g. if you murder you go to jail),

this does not prove the existance of sin.

what you describe is just cause and effect.
the moral judgement is your own.

trsrinheaven

05-04-2007, 06:27 PM

bw 2
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6

Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend or the Lord.

Since he was proven to be none of the first ones and He was raised from the dead to over 500 withnesses. His disciples after the crucifixion deserted and ran in fear for their lives. They were cowards, shaking like a leaf disciples hiding after his crucifixion.

These same disciples changed the world and became the most bold fearless people of recorded history (HIS STORY) on the planet willing to stare death in the face. WHY HOW What caused this abrubt instant and complete turn around and change?

The Apostle Paul facing every possible danger was successful in reaching the whole known world in just two years with supernatural miracles following his proclaiming and teaching.

Jesus left and poured out His love and sent His loving powerful Holy Spirit avaiable for them and all who would receive Him to come into them and endue them with life transforming power. Acts 1:8

Jesus is alive and His life giving power available to all who would receive and walk according to His word.

His power still manifests today in meeting all needs including healing relationships, finances, bodies and every need.

God so loved you that He came out of heaven so no one would be deceived and choose hell and all come into relationship with Him. Gods love trancends all human love and empowers all who ask.

The challenge is that anyone who sincerely seeks asks or knocks will receive. There nothing to lose and everything to gain. Seek Him while you still can. Ask Him to show himself real to you and He will in a way you can be sure.

(Message edited by trsrinheaven on May 04, 2007)

iamwhoiam

05-05-2007, 12:06 AM

To want to be eternally blamed for your sins is a sick mind

since the only evidence for eternal damnation is your interpretation of the bible, my guess is i am safe.
if you sir, think that it is sick that a man would like to be the judge of his own life, rather than let another man tell him what to believe about himself, then i am indeed a sick man.

how is it that you can be the judge of humanity based on your interpretation of the bible?
your interpretation is worth about as much as every other intepretation, or any other religion for that matter.
your voice is about as worthless as the religion you are spoeaking for.

Be a first rate version of yourself, not a second rate version of someone else.
-- Judy Garland

you are being decieved.

jayshawn

05-05-2007, 06:00 AM

Clearly, Jesus is saying He is God. And that no man is a god.

"I and the Father are one" (John 10.30), Jesus states.

Another place where Xtians ignore quite willingly the CONTEXT of these verses. YES jesus says he's one with the father.. BUT then in the same context of his prayer he said for the believers to be one with them, and one each other as they are one.

ARE we to assume that in the same context he uses "one" in a different way than the rest of the verses???????? NO...this is what leads to this erroneus doctrine. Jesus was speaking of being "one" in unity, mindset, goals, etc.

Jesus was one with the father b/c he was endowed with the spirit (pneuma if I'm correct) (mind) of god so he was indeed ONE with him. Jesus prayed that the believers would have that oneness with them as with each other as well (goals, mindset, unity, etc.) as if very possible when you are all in one spirit/pneuma (mind, mentality, mindset).

but of course xtian ascribe the word "spirit" in a very westernized manner to refer to a ghostly image, another entity, when in fact the use of the word spirit for the most part is used to simply mean "mind". That's a different subject though.

All that matters is that here we have an extreme neglect of fosaking CONTEXT to create a doctrine. A person sees their doctrine in a handful of words and jump on it instead of letting the CONTEXT teach them.

They put doctrine into scriptures instead of letting scriptures...pure scriptures give them doctrines.

churchworker

05-05-2007, 09:48 AM

Being Uncreated is the most important aspect of God which is why the Perfect Proof for God in 4 Steps is why Christians believe.

churchworker

05-05-2007, 11:46 AM

Respective Functions of Spirit, Soul and Body}

It is through the corporal body that man comes into contact with the material world. Hence we may label the body as that part which gives us world-consciousness. The soul comprises the intellect which aids us in the present state of existence and the emotions which proceed from the senses. Since the soul belongs to man’s own self and reveals his personality, it is termed the part of self-consciousness. The spirit is that part by which we commune with God and by which alone we are able to apprehend and worship Him. Because it tells us of our relationship with God, the spirit is called the element of God-consciousness. God dwells in the spirit, self dwells in the soul, while senses dwell in the body.

As we have mentioned already, the soul is the meeting-point of spirit and body, for there they are merged. By his spirit man holds intercourse with the spiritual world and with the Spirit of God, both receiving and expressing the power and life of the spiritual realm. Through his body man is in contact with the outside sensuous world, affecting it and being affected by it. The soul stands between these two worlds, yet belongs to both. It is linked with the spiritual world through the spirit and with the material world through the body. It also possesses the power of free will, hence is able to choose from among its environments. The spirit cannot act directly upon the body. It needs a medium, and that medium is the soul produced by the touching of the spirit with the body. The soul therefore stands between the spirit and the body, binding these two together. The spirit can subdue the body through the medium of the soul, so that it will obey God; likewise the body through the soul can draw the spirit into loving the world.

Of these three elements the spirit is the noblest for it joins with God. The body is the lowest for it contacts with matter. The soul lying between them joins the two together and also takes their character to be its own. The soul makes it possible for the spirit and the body to communicate and to cooperate. The work of the soul is to keep these two in their proper order so that they may not lose their right relationship—namely, that the lowest, the body, may be subjected to the spirit, and that the highest, the spirit, may govern the body through the soul. Man’s prime factor is definitely the soul. It looks to the spirit to give what the latter has received from the Holy Spirit in order that the soul, after it has been perfected, may transmit what it has obtained to the body; then the body too may share in the perfection of the Holy Spirit and so become a spiritual body.

(Message edited by Churchworker on May 05, 2007)

churchworker

05-05-2007, 11:48 AM

The Holy Temple and Man

“Do you not know,” writes the Apostle Paul, “that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” (1 Cor. 3.16) He has received revelation in likening man to the temple. As God formerly dwelt in the temple, so the Holy Spirit indwells man today. By comparing him to the temple we can see how the tripartite elements of man are distinctly manifested.

We know the temple is divided into three parts. The first is the outer court which is seen by all and visited by all. All external worship is offered here. Going further in is the Holy Place, into which only the priests can enter and where they present oil, incense and bread to God. They are quite near to God—yet not the nearest, for they are still outside the veil and therefore unable to stand before His very presence. God dwells deepest within, in the Holy of Holies, where darkness is overshadowed by brilliant light and into which no man can enter. Though the high priest does enter in once annually, it nonetheless indicates that before the veil is rent there can be no man in the Holy of Holies.

Man is God’s temple also, and he too has three parts. The body is like the outer court, occupying an external position with its life visible to all. Here man ought to obey every commandment of God. Here God’s Son serves as a substitute and dies for mankind. Inside is man’s soul which constitutes the inner life of man and which embraces man’s emotion, volition and mind. Such is the Holy Place of a regenerated person, for his love, will and thought are fully enlightened that he may serve God even as the priest of old did. Innermost, behind the veil, lies the Holy of Holies into which no human light has ever penetrated and no naked eye has ever pierced. It is “the secret place of the Most High,” the dwelling place of God. It cannot be reached by man unless God is willing to rend the veil. It is man’s spirit. This spirit lies beyond man’s self-consciousness and above his sensibility. Here man unites and communes with God.

No light is provided for the Holy of Holies because God dwells there. There is light in the Holy Place supplied by the lampstand of seven branches. The outer court stands under the broad daylight. All these serve as images and shadows to a regenerated person. His spirit is like the Holy of Holies indwelt by God, where everything is carried on by faith, beyond the sight, sense or understanding of the believing one. The soul resembles the Holy Place for it is amply enlightened with many rational thoughts and precepts, much knowledge and understanding concerning the things in the ideational and material world. The body is comparable to the outer court, clearly visible to all. The body’s actions may be seen by everyone.

The order which God presents to us is unmistakable: “your spirit and soul and body” (1 Thess. 5.23). It is not “soul and spirit and body,” nor is it “body and soul and spirit.” The spirit is the pre-eminent part, hence it is mentioned first; the body is the lowest and therefore is last mentioned; the soul stands between, so is mentioned between. Having now seen God’s order, we can appreciate the wisdom of the Bible in likening man to a temple. We can recognize the perfect harmony which exists between the temple and man in respect to both order and value.

(Message edited by Churchworker on May 05, 2007)

churchworker

05-05-2007, 11:03 PM

Here we have the. If you can't isolate anything wrong with it, it proves God of the Bible.

Step 1 - There is an exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years, so that it won't take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved. That being the case obviously there would not have been an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Therefore, the only possibility is the uncreated created.

Global conscience receives common grace; the perfecting of the saints receives eternal blessings. The unsaved are cordoned off into hell for rejecting God's grace and gift of salvation.

Step 2 - Since nothing in nature happens all by itself and always has a cause, then nature could not have caused itself. Thus, the uncreated created.

Step 3 - Don't argue against some god for we are talking about God of the Bible. Just stay on topic.

Step 4 - There can not be gods creating gods or supernatural events causing supernatural events in the eternity of the past, because they do not cause themselves. Therefore, the uncreated created.

If you can't find anything wrong with the Proof then accept that it is true. Realize the proven fact that you were created by the uncreated. Can you do that?

If you still can't do that, know it is because you first assume God does not exist, then you try to rationalize your assumption, thus manifesting your disobedience to God, so this is why you are going to hell. You remain unforgiven for all your sins; alas, you may not even realize you are a sinner because you have chosen to shut your mind down, or if you do know you are a sinner, you don't care anyway and would rather go to hell. Someone like that is a bad person. Very sad way to live!

It has been my experience in talking to the unsaved, they are unsaved because they want to be, so no reason will work with them, no matter how beautiful and true. The problem lies in emotion; that is why I recommend listening to some a bit first before you consider Christ so that you can compare to the music you listen to.

PLEASE STOP REPETITIVE POSTING OF LINKS. I HAVE ALLOWED SOME SO THAT PEOPLE CAN GO THERE IF THEY WISH. ADMIN WOULD NEVER EDIT YOUR CONTENT EXCEPT TO REMOVE THESE LINKS. WE HOPE YOU WILL CONTINUE TO CONTRIBUTE BUT HOPE THAT YOU WILL SPEND A LITTLE TIME READING SOME OF OUR RULES SO THAT YOU CAN POST IN A MORE CONSTRUCTIVE WAY.

(Message edited by admin on May 05, 2007)

iamwhoiam

05-06-2007, 04:37 AM

you know that there is a first cause.
quantum physics will back that up.
the moral question does not enter the debate here.
if you want to have a discussion of morality, then say so.

now, prove the rest of your assertions.

the one about the evolving conscience is not defendable.

you cannot defend the existence of sin.
you cannot defend the existence of hell.

you can't even defend the idea that you know the unknowable, ie. god.

franklin

05-06-2007, 01:26 PM

how do we know scientists are gods?

how does God back that up?

bluewater2

05-06-2007, 04:21 PM

Churchworker, you presume that before the big bang that there was nothing. Scientists actually believe that before the big bang was a big contraction. The matter that makes up the universe has always been here, essentially a pulsating mass of matter and energy that has always been here and always will be. No need for a creator since it was never created in the first place.

jayshawn

05-07-2007, 12:15 AM

Yes bluewater they are indeed the same on that point. What's scary is that when they had their time in power (for Islam it still holds too much grasp over the ppl) they assume it's a revival when actually it's persecution of non-believers.

Yeah....it's sad but true...a good portion of Xtians probably are believing in Bush...I know I did the first time around. I even swore that it was the "devil" that was causing the election to go into controversy over who run and all the recounts. My church and I were actually praying over the situation fully convinced that only Satan would want the non-believing Gore in office. Nevermind that Bush is no more holy than the next person.

Churchy's theological education can't be too great and if so that would be scary given his arguements above (especially his lack of argument for the obvious misuse of the context of John regarding "oneness").

The 4 steps nonsense is a total joke and proves nothing at all. Too bad few Xtians today realize that Xtiananity prevailed to this day not b/c of divine intervention but by power and the sword.

Get beyond that history and you're left with ignorant people accepting the religion out of an emotional response either to the fear or "hell", life being in the toilet, or some other emotional response to it (church services do an outstanding job of getting emotions stirred up under the salvation message).

The bible is morally greater than any other religion?????? Clearly someone has not paid attention to the rediculous laws of the Tanach, the irrational behaviors of "god" in the Tanach, and the lack of morals in the actions of the people.

It's too easy to see how the OT is nothing more than a tribal 1up over over tribes who claimed their god was greater. You can see the background of what would then be a typical tribal 'god' (the whole anger, jealous, violent, wiping out other civilizations for no just reason, very picky in picking only one group of people as his own, etc. etc.).

In the NT you get away from all that into a different type of atmosphere that went more along with that time in history. So you no longer had the tribal warfaring/violent 'god'. NO...now you have the suppose 'godman' jesus.

Of course a sage of 'jesus' sort was the recipe of the day. Someone who could work magic, preach a message of peace, resurrect from the dead, teach eternal life, etc.

No wonder why Rome eventually made it the state religion. WHY NOT???? All the benefits of eternal life, being free of guilt (I'm sure there was a plenty too with those rulers of the day) by simply confessing a belief (not even a necessary change in action) of 'jesus', ruling in the future, etc. Ahhhh what a message to accept and then make the religion of the day.

You just gotta thank good ole Constatine for conviently accepting Xtianantiy.

mcmstaff78

05-07-2007, 01:08 AM

Wow, that was a persuasive presentation of facts and information. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

That you would write "Christianity did nothing more than bring in all the pagan madness of the various religions of the it's time" tells me your knowledge is on par with a Discovery Channel "special".

Churworker's stuff is loony, but what you write isn't any better.

churchworker

05-07-2007, 01:38 AM

I love how you can't find anything wrong with the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible so as to give glory to God.

That's the power of the Proof.

churchworker

05-07-2007, 04:36 AM

Science proves that nothing happens all by itself, therefore, the is no other choice but the uncreated who is God of the Bible, because none can compare.

Hell is as well proven since God is proven and He said Hell exists, then you know it exists. Furthermore, since you are made in God's image and will not be annihilated because you are intrinsic value to God, not instrumental value, you will be resurrected for hell, since you don't want to be saved. You are required to be eternally separated from God and His people.

Sin is proven as well. If you murder you go to jail. If this sin did not exist, you would not go to jail for murdering.

You presume many things that causes you to misunderstand. Science does not teach what you think.

Since you can still find none that trump Christ, you lose in your dogma of hostility to Christ.

Why twist science? Let it go.

The 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible is something we all know, so Christians boast in Christ, not themselves as you do.

Just know that once you have died on the flesh, you do not get another opportunity to be saved. You will go to hades to await resurrection to Great White Throne to be judged then thrown into hell. At that time you'll have nothing to say for yourself, because you will know you belong in hell.

Your choice.

churchworker

05-08-2007, 06:15 AM

Here is the

Consequently, the} remains unchallenged.

(Message edited by admin on May 08, 2007)

churchworker

05-09-2007, 03:34 AM

trainedobserver,

Shall I do your reading for you? Look up Mithra for starters. You have the last supper and pretty much the whole nine yards.

Yes genocide and infantcide. You apparently don't know your Bible very well. Hint: Promised Land-Grab.

Do you really think land belongs to nations that practice child-sacrifice? You need to get a conscience.

Having a last supper does not mean it is taken from a cult. All human beings have to eat food. How silly of you.

Unlike the other mystery religions, Mithraism was open only to men, so that in no sense could it be regarded as a universal faith. Therefore, it was false. You lose in your proposal for this cult. Your favoring this false religion shows your male bias. The basic doctrine of Mithraism, as far as can be told, is that Mithras was a god who was born from a rock. Jesus was not born from a rock. How silly. Mithra slayed a bull from a region of the moon? Bulls don't live on the moon. How silly. After Mithras was successful a quarrel broke out between Mithras and Apollo. Jesus and God the Father don't quarrel. You can see why your male-only cult failed. It's goofy. Whereas Jesus really did walk the earth. God really did enter into His creation in Christ, for Jesus is God. He emptied Himself of His independent attributes to be in the likeness of the flesh. Where does Mithra do this?

The small Mithraic congregations were like masonic lodges for a few and for men only and even those mostly of one class, the military; a religion that excludes the half of the human race bears no comparison to the religion of Christ. Mithraism was all comprehensive and tolerant of every other cult; the Pater Patrum himself was an adept in a number of other religions; Christianity was essentially exclusive, condemning every other religion in the world, alone and unique in its majesty.

It has been said that Mithraism failed, in contrast with Christianity, precisely because it did not spring from a strong personality such as Jesus. There is this much truth in the statement, that the Persian Mithra was a very shadowy form beside Jesus, who came nearer to the heart, especially of women, invalids, and the weak, in his human features and on account of the touching description of his death.

Regarding infantcide, evil nations were sacrificing their children on altars and God wanted it stopped, so God destroyed those evil nations which today no longer exist. I guess that means you lose. Since these nations were so evil, even the killing of young adults was needed because they would continue the tradition of killing their own child in child sacrifices. This is not infantcide, but ending of a horrible sin.

If you had your way, today there would still be human sacrifices on altars and televised; this is unwittingly what you are defending. You're a bad guy. Maybe it would be pay-per-view also and large stadium events of child sacrifices. Dude, you are sick.

I think it is a self-indulgent play on emotions for a fictional entity. Musically it is uninspiring.

Isn't it self-indulgent to point to self not to Christ. Who do you point to? Sense the Holy Spirit touching your spirit if you can. If you can't it is because you are not born-again and are too indulgent to give up self for Christ.

Since you can't find anything wrong with the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible, then praise the Lord this gives glory to God!

Awomen. Amen.

churchworker

05-09-2007, 03:40 AM

Ha! cw, I knew you were a dishonest little piece of work. Your religion is obviously doing a lot for your honesty and straightforwardness isn't it? I think you've proven to us its impotence quite well. Someone as disingenuous has nothing of value to offer except maybe as an object lesson.

It's not dishonest to enter a forum in which one is no longer banned at. This shows by your accusation how pathetic your god is that all it can do is act like Satan the great accuser working in you by the evil spirit in your accusations. Maybe in fact this god you worship is Satan. That is why you are so selfish.

Just know that still you can't find anything wrong with the 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible, and the reason you still reject Christ then is because you like your sin nature and like being a bad person. Just be honest with yourself that you are going to hell, and you would rather rule in hell than be obedient to God in the new city and new earth. How ugly of you!

churchworker

05-10-2007, 02:07 AM

I think what Lincoln is saying is those with no "apparent" vices, give off the aura of being flawless which is pretentious because everybody is a sinner.

Your flaw is that you shut your mind down to the fact that you can't find anything wrong with God in the 4 Step Proof, yet you still call Jesus a liar. However, I would not rationalize this to then say you have some virtue because of your mental disease of rejecting a proof even though you can't find anything wrong with it.

bluewater2

05-10-2007, 03:17 AM

You have no idea where I will be shortly. Also, you are wrong about when the books were written. I know that the information you have is from xtian site. I will send you to a website with more balanced historical information than you have if you are interested. Are you interested?

churchworker

05-10-2007, 03:20 AM

I know with 100% certainty factnet.org is a cult.

They required me to type, "I will give you one more chance. Your first post after this intervention must contain the words, 'I will rely on using my own mind from now on and quit linking to my site and continually repeating myself.' If I do not see this, I will ban you again."

Since I am using my own mind, why is this doublestandard needed, when I respond with the same response of the truth to repetitive errors by those who are unregenerates? Apparently I am not allowed to continue to give the truth when an unregenerate repeats his mistake. That's very cultic, don't you think? Isn't it incumbent upon the unregenerate to respond to my response rather to further the conversation and make progress instead of repeating himself?

And to censor from posting any links is just plain wrong. The owner of factnet.org is exposed and censoring to martyr Christians. He is a non-Christian going to hell; nothing to be surprised about.

churchworker

05-10-2007, 03:40 AM

bluewater2,

I know in the grand scheme of things of 13.7 billion years, very shortly you will be in hell, because you admit you will never give your life to Christ, so the Bible says in John 3.18 you are already condemned. Since God of the Bible is proven and you admit you can't find anything wrong with the 4 Step Proof for God, you're unwittingly admitting you want to go to hell, that you like remaining in your sin nature and don't want God's forgiveness even though He created you and you need to be redeemed to receive eternal life.

The information I have is from the scholarly community on when the books of the Bible are written. They come to this conclusion because each book builds on the next and follows Paul's travels and John's life and quotes of these books are given by early church fathers, so obviously they can't be written in the time frame after the early church fathers.

Why do you overlook these facts? I am glad though you aren't able to show otherwise.

Praise the Lord!

bluewater2

05-10-2007, 04:29 AM

Step 1 - There is an exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years, so that it won't take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved. That is untrue and there are no studies to back this up. Therefore, the only possibility is the uncreated created. That is complete phycho bable and makes no sense at all.

Step 2 - Since nothing in nature happens all by itself and always has a cause, then nature could not have caused itself. Thus, the uncreated created. Nature has always been here in one form or another, be it rocks, trees, water or stardust. It has always been here. Study the universal law of the conservation of matter.

Step 3 - Don't argue against some god for we are talking about God of the Bible. Just stay on topic. That has nothing to do with proving anything. Big g, little g, your god is the same god that everyone who believes in god worships.

Step 4 - There can not be gods creating gods or supernatural events causing supernatural events in the eternity of the past, because they do not cause themselves. Therefore, the uncreated created. More complete jibberish that makes no sense at all except to someone like you.

Send my $10,000 to www.atheistwolfpack.com (http://www.atheistwolfpack.com)

iamwhoiam

05-10-2007, 04:45 AM

There is an exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years, so that it won't take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved.

this is a statement that needs proving.

can you prove that there is such a thing as conscience and that it has grown exponentially?

churchworker

05-10-2007, 07:16 AM

iamwhoiam,
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

maybe you should check those numbers again.
yours only went to 2003.
2005
The estimated volume of violent crime in the Nation increased 2.3 percent

Preliminary figures indicate that, as a whole, law enforcement agencies throughout the Nation reported an increase of 3.7 percent in the number of violent crimes brought to their attention in the first half of 2006 when compared to figures reported for the first six months of 2005
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
You're misreading. The chart is to 2005, that's why the article says, "violent crime rates have declined, reaching the lowest level ever in 2005." Lowest levels ever! Now, since USA is falling babylon it will go through many years of trouble so you should expect some increase, but sine 1973 it is down. This is a small sample size. Plus, just because something may go up 2% you still have to calculate it on a per capita basis. Property crime is down.

So therefore, you can't even take one nation alone by itself to render a finding. You'll need to take a global sample. If USA is falling babylon then expect rates to increase for a time. But the general trend is down.

For crime rates in USA what is clear is that crime is down from the 70's to the 80's and more rapidly in the 90's. This is a better sample than what happened the last 2 years since the record low crime rate in the first part of 2005 because it is a bigger sample.

Know what Satan is going to try to do. He is going to try to reverse this exponential increase in conscience with the coming Tribulation in which 1/3 of the people of the earth will die. But then, what follows is the 1000 year reign of Christ in which there is no wars at all. So in that sense you really ought to look at 1000 year periods, but I gave you at least a starting point with the chart from 1973 and you found the data from 1929 from the FBI.