Ye must be born again

[arron]

blue i am still praying for you to be saved.

[trainedobserver]

Child: Mom, I don't want to go to church.
Mother: Why sweetie?
Child: The preacher says you have to do it and I don't want to.
Mother: Do what?
Child: He says every week, "You must be bored again!" I hate being bored. Can't I take my gameboy?

[fatherofaking]

lol

that was great!
thanks for the laugh.

[rachelengland]

IHS, have you been helping the Secular Humanist out in the comedy department....might need a little refresher course..

Note to self...Quick cover head you are about to be scolded...R

[jayshawn]

I personally laughed a little...thanks for the original trained...not too many people have that nowadays!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I think I should faint if I were to meet an atheist, secularist, humanist, liberalist, democrat, intellectualist, or any other name you would like to assign to that religion, should be found capable of processing thought! Original thought? No way Hosea! The joke was taken from the newspaper religion section. I will post the article title and the author’s name went it comes back in the paper.

[trainedobserver]

Never saw it. (like I read the religion section of the paper)

Here is another.

Did you hear the one about the Baptist minister that was forced to become a Methodist after he drowned four people?

So atm, did you ever own up to either not being the guy who is offering the million bucks or not? If you are, unless you can show proof you have it ready to give, you are lying in the offer.

[trainedobserver]

b.t.w. I am a writer and an artist. I come up original things every day.

Most of the time you make about as much sense as the Pope on condom use. Go pound sand.

[jayshawn]

I'm assuming TATM believes he comes up with original things all the time...wow, a totally unnecessary post and point. As if Xtians are somehow more capable of original thought. I've seen plenty of Xtians parrot someone else so I'm sure it works both ways. Original or not I still believe it was funny.

[still_small_voice]

"It is only when people really begin to realize that they themselves are responsible for their actions and that actions have consequences will we begin to move forward on this planet."

I agree with this

"There is no life after death"

You can't prove this, don't be a hypocrite

I do find it ironic that on this thread we have two "Christians" totally at odds and they read the same bible.

But not surprising, I believe there are like over a thousand sects of Christianity and they are based on the same Bible as authority.

And TATM claims a doctorate? From which university did you receive your degree?

[still_small_voice]

Arron... you claim YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN

but you claim children go to heaven.

when are babies that die born again?

So not everyone has to be born again?

What if a teenager dies without being born again?

Having done not much of anything other than go to school.

Hell?

What about people that never heard the gospel?

Heaven for any or hell for all?

[arron]

any one who has the knowledge of good and evil and has come to the knowledge to accept JESUS or not will go to hell infants dont have this knowledge. some teenagers dont have this knowledge especially if there is something mentaly wwrong with them or a physical defect that pervent the mind from functioning right. if a teen ager in that condition or an adult for that matter then they will go to heaven but if they do have the knowledge then they will go to hell as you will if they and you are not born again

[arron]

also for those who have not heard the gospel, there in the befinning all had the knowledge of the true GOD JEHOVAH, JESUS CHRIST GODS SON
THEY WILL BE BEATEN WITH FEW STRIPES IN OTHER WORDS EVEN THOUGH THEY GO TO HELL AND HELL WILL BE HELL THEY WILL NOT go as deep in hell as those who like yourself have heard the gospel and rejected it

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). still_small_voice:

Mr. Arron is little more than a babbling idiot. You should have asked for an age cut-off point. or How does one acquire the knowledge of good and evil? How is one born again? Any proof of your claims, etc. etc.

[still_small_voice]

"physical defect that pervent the mind from functioning right"

Given what we know about the brain, maybe all those who do not accept Jesus have something chemically wrong in their brain and all go to heaven? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

I mean, many serial killers might indeed have something wrong with their brain, hope they don't go to heaven.

They would get frustrated by being unable to kill anyone.

Seeing as it is common that the simple minded accept Christ, (and also flock to other religions as well) and the more intelligent often eschew religion or at least are agnostic, it would seem the brain and intelligence is more of a curse than not and coupled with your statement about mentally retarded people, it is a blessing to be born with mental retardation and low intelligence. Yet, people with intelligence generally do much better in life, can work a better job, have more money, make more of an impact upon society, and live life with more self awareness and convictions.

I would assume in heaven, these retarded people, they become instantly intelligent? So intelligence has nothing to do with the brain.

Or the brain blocks intelligence from existing?

A person born with a 90 IQ goes to heaven because he did not have the mental capacity to understand the gospel.

A person with a 150 IQ goes to hell because he rejected the illogical premise of revealed religion. But same 150 IQ person lived a normal life, commited no crimes.

Speaking of that. How do you explain the fact that some people who are unsaved live in accordance with laws and are moral, but some are wicked, lack a conscience and break the law. If all those who are not born again are wicked. Not equally wicked or anywhere close, given the diversity of morality which is observable, what does the difference stem from?

And if the Old Testament saints had to be born again, they got saved in the state of death, then you believe someone can be saved while dead, who are you to say there is no second chance?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). still_small_voice:

I would caution you when equating intelligence and wisdom. Few on this board who consider themselves intellectually superior have any capacity to function in our society. Einstein, for example, was considered intellectually superior. Unfortunately, he was not able to function in a simple grade school environment. Are you dead, peradventure? Einstein believed that if you got up to fifteen miles an hour, your could not breathe. If you reached twenty five, your heart would stop. Many so-called scientists of that era believed the same thing.

I recall the Virginia Education Association (teachers’ union) talking on television several years ago seeking a pay increase. Many of the best paying jobs in the U. S. are held by the uneducated. Those with a high school education make the best overall salaries ($30,000 to $50,000 range). The union was forced to admit that only twenty-two percent of all college grads held jobs. (You must recognize first, that the average college grad is female. Few women are wage earners.) The union refused to give a pay scale for college grads. I remember Juletta Albright, head of the West Virginia teachers’ union, saying on television that of the fifty-three state school systems West Virginia was fifty-one in pay. I am not sure if she failed math or geography. The last time I looked we had fifty states.

I must state that unlike you, I failed to question Mr. Arron on IQ level. Back to your comments for a moment.

Quoting: “. . .the more intelligent often eschew religion or at least are agnostic ...”
End quote.

Seventy-five percent of those who attend my church are college educated. Having lived in several college towns, I can say your statistics are off quiet a ways.

[still_small_voice]

"Einstein believed that if you got up to fifteen miles an hour, your could not breathe. If you reached twenty five, your heart would stop. Many so-called scientists of that era believed the same thing."

This is just stupid. Trains and horses both propelled people past those speeds and obviously people had not died. You actually believe they thought this? What are your references.

Your next point is very open to debate. For one, I know for a fact if I had a better degree I could be promoted. My employer requires certain degrees to go past a certain level.

Also, name one doctor, attorney, pilot, military officer that dropped out of high school or did not go to college.

Next... I do not know what your source is but the US census and other statistical analysis have shown clearly that the higher degree you have the more you (should) make.

For example, the chart I am looking at shows that you with a doctorate should be making around 85,000.00 in 1999 dollars, or what, about 90,000 a year in today's dollars.

It goes down from there in almost direct relation to education.

Masters slightly less, and so on.

Does a person with a high school education make less than a drop out?

"Seventy-five percent of those who attend my church are college educated"

As opposed to some church in rural mississippi where not one has a college education right? Statistics are easily skewed to make a point.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

Also, your point about wisdom verses intelligence is a straw man argument. I was talking about intelligence intentionally, not wisdom. I am quite aware there is a difference.

[still_small_voice]

Also, I would present the argument that fanatical groups and cults consist of less educated people, and the more educated the more tolerant and/or liberal the believer is.

You say 75% of your congregation has a degree, are you a fundamentalist pentecostal church? No?

So the snake handlers in the mountains just might not be snake handlers if they went down in the city for a bit with them city folk and studied a bit about the world or even read some books and engaged the brain.

I am not saying they are inbred hicks... just that ingnorance breeds ignorance.

Superstition breeds fanaticism.

[still_small_voice]

"pilot"

Better qualify that, meaning military pilot, and airplane not helicopter.

[fatherofaking]

there are as many ways to be born again as there are ways to be born.
no two stories are the same.
we are born again from one moment to the next.
the present is all we have.
when the moment is gone, we can never get it back.
who has the knowledge of the next moment?
uncertinty is what we have.
we could also call it pure potential.
we can do with it what we like.
it is our free will.
all we can know is now.

[fatherofaking]

http://member.melbpc.org.au/~grjallen/anna.htm



"At five years Anna knew absolutely the purpose of being, knew the meaning of love and was a personal friend and helper of Mister God. At six Anna was a theologian, mathematician, philosopher, poet and gardener. If you asked her a question you would always get an answer - in due course. On some occasions the answer would be delayed for weeks or months; but eventually, in her own good time, the answer would come: direct, simple and much to the point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fynn

[still_small_voice]

" found to be predictive of later intellectual achievement, such as educational achievement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ

Link between IQ and education level. This must take into account [i]opportunity to be educated.

It is of note there has been a link establisihed by some bewteen IQ and psychosis. Do you believe Psychosis is demon possession?

FOAK

It could be argued the earth is born again every spring.

I personally have not ruled out reincarnation as a possibility... so one life ends another begins yet death is not death only transition, so being born again is simply being born into a new way of
perceiving or experiencing.

The body does not die with the same cells or atoms it was born with. In that sense the body is being recreated constantly through life.

Then the body returns to the earth and another body is formed from the same material.

[fatherofaking]

Our local parson was taken aback when he asked her about God. The conversation went as follows:

'Do you believe in God?'

'Yes.'

'Do you know what God is?'

'Yes.'

'What is God then?'

'He's God.'

'Do you go to church?'

'No.'

'Why not?'

'Because I know it all.'

'What do you know?'

'I know to love Mister God and to love people and cats and dogs and spiders and flowers and trees,' and the catalogue went on, '- with all of me.'

Carol grinned at me and Stan made a face and I hurriedly put a cigarette in my mouth and indulged in a bout of coughing. There's nothing much you can do in the face of that kind of accusation, for that's what it amounted to. ('Out of the mouths of babes ... ') Anna had bypassed all the non-essesntials and distilled centuries of learning into one sentence - 'And God said love me, love them, and love it and don't forget to love yourself.'

http://member.melbpc.org.au/~grjallen/anna.htm

[fatherofaking]

Anna never said anything about being saved, never to my knowledge attempted to save anybody. I don't suppose she would have understood this way of putting things, for this was my interpretation. But Anna knew full well that it was no use playing things safe, you simply had to 'come outside' if you wanted to make progress. 'Coming outside' was dangerous, very dangerous, but it had to be done. there was no other way.
http://member.melbpc.org.au/~grjallen/anna.htm

[still_small_voice]

Sounds like Anna was an up and coming Deist.

http://www.moderndeism.com/html/deism_defined.html

[fatherofaking]

'Tich,' I said, 'what were you asking God about real questions for?'

'Oh, it's just sad, that's all.'

'What's sad?'

'People is.'

'I see. What's sad about people?'

'People ought to get more wise when they grow older. Bossy and Patch do, but people don't.'

'Don't you think so?'

'No. People's boxes get littler and littler.'

'Boxes? I don't understand that.'

'Questions are in boxes,' she explained, 'and the answers they get only fit the size of the box.'

'That's difficult; go on a bit.'

'It's hard to say. It's like - it's like the answers are the same size as the box. It's like them dimensions.'

'Oh?'

'If you ask a question in two dimensions, then the answer is in two dimensions too. It's like a box. You can't get out.'

'I think i see what you mean.'

'The questions get up to the edge and then stop. It's like a prison.'

'I expect we're all in some sort of prison.'

She shook her head. 'No. Miater God wouldn't do that.'

'I suppose not. What's the answer then?'

'Let Mister God be. He lets us be.'

'Don't we?'

'No. We put Mister God into little boxes.'

'Surely we don't do that?'

'Yes, all the time. Because we don't really love him. We got to let Mister God be free. That's what love is.'

[still_small_voice]

-the_apostolic_truth_ministries

My wacko alarm is starting to go off. What denomination are you a part of?

Where did you receive your doctorate.

Why is your use of english so hit and miss after eight years or more of college?

Maybe english is your second language, and you are from another country... that is possible.

"Origin thought? Not quiet, the American Medical Association used it to sterile thousands in mental institutions in the U. S."

You really should provide references. Date? Where? How many?

And I am thinking that was Original, quite, and sterilize.

Father of a King.- I know you like the book, I might check it out myself, but are you going to post the whole thing on here?

[fatherofaking]

no stv.
my last post was a response to the deism idea.
i am not sure she would have agreed with you.

sorry about all of the excerpts.
i was using them to make a point.

you know how that works.
you find someone who agrees with your ideas and you want to say, see i am not the only one who thinks this way.

i am not as crazy as you all think i am.
there is someone else that is crazy too.

i will stop.

[still_small_voice]

"i am not sure she would have agreed with you."

Maybe, maybe not. I am sure you are reacting more to the idea of a label for a relationship with God than anything else.

Yet, given that deism is a philosophy and not a religion, there is not much of a label applied to God other than God which fits this Anna well.

In that Deism conceives of the God of nature or Nature's God and bases our knowledge of him on science, intelligent design, the universe, what is observable...

The polywog conversation, and the counting the wing beats of an insect is simple desim in thought. Construction of a theological or question about God based on nothing more than an observation of nature.

Deism does not deny a personal relationship with God, only that it is personal and no person should base their own relationship with God upon antoher man's revelation or holy text.

While not completely analogous, I saw enough that fit to spark the comment.

[fatherofaking]

we have to remember this is someone's interpretation of a little girls life from 5 to 8yrs old.

she used to ask people to write down what she was seeing so she could learn the words.
it seems that most were unable to adequately describe the things she saw.

[ezekiel_37]

born again = born from above.

teaches that all souls must come from heaven and be born into human bodies to have even a chance at entering the forever after, through the atoning blood of Christ.


Some souls chose not to be born from heaven...through woman/water(sack) as flesh people, but instead chose to leave their dwelling place and came here to earth on their own. They are the fallen angels(sons of God) of Gen6...Jude...


It is not speaking of a change of heart, although I do not deny that it is needed to truly know God. It is speaking of the difference between the fallen angels (who chose themselves instead of God) and all of us who chose to try and make it in by becoming people and accepting Messiah and following Him.

This includes all you that do not believe.


in His service
c