Christian Music

[churchworker]

God is not messing with your head when he tells you that you are a sinner. This is reality, you are born into sin. You are not worthless, but you are hopeless to try to solve your own problems, because you are foundationally lost in your sin nature which corrupts you and disables you from truly being good. As soon as you think you got one thing handled, sin pops up elsewhere, because the root of sin has not been dealt with by having your old man die on the cross with Christ.

You are still made in God's image so you are very valuable to God, but your sin day by day is causing you die a little more.

You feel guilty. Listen to your conscience. It is telling you that you need to be saved by God. When you come to the cross as a helpless sinner, don't squirm, for this is not how God receives humility.

Don't be so proud of those who gather around to martyr Christians as the Pharisees gathered around to have Jesus killed. Do you think you will escape judgment for this kind of behavior?

Let go of your excuses and realize that since you can't find anything wrong with the proof for God of the Bible, then He has fully proven Himself to you, so receive His saving grace. No longer cling to self.

[ba2]

churchworker, It is comments like yours that drive me and others away from church. On the one hand you give a resource which promotes love of others and then you make extremely judgmental and negative comments about another. The 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible you put out there is based on very faulty statistics. Unless one is rather gullible or trying to find proof in something they already believe, no conclusions can be made from the paper.
For the record, God never told me I am a sinner, only man said those things. God never made me feel like a hopeless case, but man often does. I do not have a sin nature, maybe I did when I was a child, but I eventually learned how to behave in society. No one in North America is being persecuted or martyred, at least not because they are Christian.

I, like other Christians, believe there is truth in the bible but we all differ on the interpretation. You think all you have to do to be saved is read a document that was written by man’s hand thousands of years ago? A document that is full of inconsistencies and contradictions?

Admit that there is no “proof” in the bible, just beliefs. Then and only then can the truth set you free.

You won't gain knowledge by drinking ink.
Arabian Proverb

[churchworker]

May the Lord help open your heart by listening to some Christian music here (http://biblocality.com/forums/xeon.htm). The songs have been narrowed to just 26 of the most spiritual Christian songs to help lead you to Christ. Give yourself a chance to be saved by letting your emotion be touched.

[rachelengland]

ba2, I got to thinking and you know how dangerous that can behttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif but I often wonder if posters like churchworker are really sincere in their attempt here or is that maybe they are just characters being played out on the internet to irritate others and make Christians look like fools....

Hope your well ..the weather is beautiful here! R

[iamwhoiam]

i think he is sincere as much as he is able to be.

kind of like a club
if you are not in the know you have got to go.

people just want to feel like they belong to something worthwhile, something that gives them some sense of grounding.

boys understand boys, girls understand girls, christians understand christians.

any club serves the same purpose.
the people in them don't hate everyone that is not a part of thier club.
in fact, they try and recruit people on the outside because they think they have found something worth sharing.

it is when you think your club is better than anyone else's that the arrogance becomes a factor.

[rachelengland]

"A fool doesn't question, a fool doesn't think, a fool only parrots what he is told and he never doubts authority".TO

Isn't that the truth. It is that exact statement that describes those involved in cults-they stop questioning or aren't allowed to question. To be honest that is a very scary place to be and if church worker is for real I hope he/she can grasp that..R

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Do you listen to Christian music or Gospel music?

[mcmstaff78]

ba2, Ezekiel 28 is typically interpreted by Pentecostal/Charismatics and the like to refer to Satan (Lucifer), as the prince of Tyrus is viewed as a "type" of Satan.

Even if one grants the typology, the most that can be gained is that the "anointed cherub", based strictly on the KJV translation, was created with "timbrels and pipes". However, the exact meaning of this phrase is Hebrew is unclear and is translated in most modern translations as regarding "settings" and "mountings", i.e. something that jewels sit in. The LXX renders it, "28:13 Thou wast in the delight of the paradise of God; thou hast bound upon thee every precious stone, the sardius, and topaz, and emerald, and carbuncle, and sapphire, and jasper, and silver, and gold, and ligure, and agate, and amethyst, and chrysolite, and beryl, and onyx: and thou hast filled thy treasures and thy stores in thee with gold." and verse 24 is "From the day that thou wast created thou [wast] with the cherub: I set thee on the holy mount of God; thou wast in the midst of the stones of fire." which is closely paralleled by the RSV translation of the verse "With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked."

So actually there is little, or no, biblical support for "Lucifer" as a "musician" and very little that this passage is even about him in the first place.

[ba2]

bear,
I have a better question. Exactly what music was considered “Christian” before the early 1900’s. And why did the ditties of the 1920’s become the Christian style still in use today. Why does Christian music need to remain in the mode of the early 1900’s.

And these following questions can’t be answered: What was the beat and tempo of the biblical music? What was the music scale used? Was there even a scale used?

Can any of the music from the scriptures be duplicated today? Answer, absolutely NOT!

I can listen to the ditties of the 1920’s but for me it gets very tiring in a short time. In church, they tell me that this is all I should ever listen to. This is insane!

[rachelengland]

Ba2, Christian music is lovely for those who want to listen to it but it has always seemed second rate to me..with the exception of a few groups it just doesn't cut the mark...

I highly doubt God ever intended for us to like only one style of music and we know many of the very first christian songs(hymns) were based on old bar tunes.....what they are telling you is insane..churches do not need to be regulating our musical choices...

What they play inside the walls of the church is their business I suppose and if you don't like it...well maybe another place of worship would suit you better...

[fatherofaking]

The whole problem can be stated quite simply by asking, 'Is there a meaning to music?' My answer would be, 'Yes.' And 'Can you state in so many words what the meaning is?' My answer to that would be, 'No.'
Aaron Copland
US composer (1900 - 1990)



I don't know anything about music. In my line you don't have to.
Elvis Presley
US rock singer (1935 - 1977)


After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
Aldous Huxley, "Music at Night", 1931
English critic & novelist (1894 - 1963)


Of all noises, I think music is the least disagreeable.
Samuel Johnson
English author, critic, & lexicographer (1709 - 1784)


The way to write American music is simple. All you have to do is be an American and then write any kind of music you wish.
Virgil Thomson
US composer, conductor, & music critic (1896 - 1989)



If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die.
That strain again! it had a dying fall:
O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound
That breathes upon a bank of violets,
Stealing and giving odour!
William Shakespeare, "Twelfth Night", Act 1 scene 1
Greatest English dramatist & poet (1564 - 1616)

http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/music/31.html

[mcmstaff78]

Ba2 is correct. However, I would suggest if one would like a close inkling of what it sounded like, attend an Antiochian Orthodox or Coptic service where the music has changed very little in the last 1500 years.

[rachelengland]

Hi Ba2..when I was discussing the bar tunes I was referring to the music that is still in many hymnals today(from the late 19th century and on)not the music of Bible times-we do not have any recordings therefore as you have said we could not know the beat or structure of chords.....R

[ba2]

staff78
You are partially correct. But it is still a guess that the music they have been using for 1500 years is the same they used 500 years previous. There is absolutly no way to know that. Certainly, once a standardized notation was used (around 800 AD) we can be fairly good at continuing a specific piece of music. Until that time, we are guessing at best.

What we can do is somewhat duplicate the potential sounds the various instruments might have made. But, that is like giving someone an instrument and telling them to look at a poem and play it as a song with no reference as to what is should sound like. Do that with 10 people and you will get 10 different pieces of music.

[mcmstaff78]

Well, there is "guessing" and then there is "guessing". IOW, we are not blindly guessing, but can make some intelligent "guesses" based upon what little we do still have from the time period as well as the tradition of these churches.

BTW, one thing we do know is that the early Church used no musical instruments. Music was all accappella.

However, Rachel is correct that many of the Reformation and post-Reformation hymns were sung to drinking songs. Can't remember off the top of my head, but I know Charles Wesley liked to do this a good bit.

[ba2]

yes, but an educated guess is still just that. I just don't like the attitude of someone who insists that they know Godly music and anyone who doesn't follow their style doesn't.

My whole point here was to make the point that the intent of music is what comes from the heart. What is uplifting and/or spiritual to one person, may be just the opposite to another. We should try to understand that what we want to hear in or out of church is a personal preference, nothing more. And we should refrain from condemning the style of music other churches use in their service.

[ihavesinned]

Christian music is mostly rubbish from what I have heard. I have rarely heard an ounce of originality in it. It is built to a formula, like most pop , country and rap, and that rarely results in good art.

The standout artists in almost all music are the originators, not the duplicators. An obvious exception to this rule is this guy:

http://www.erichorner.com/

Sorry, the music doesn't play at the beginning anymore. They seem to have updated the site.

[stillrecovering]

Well, I respect your opinion; I just don't share your view. What's considered "good art" will generally vary depending on who you ask.

I find some Christian music very inspiring and uplifting. The music reminds me to maintain an eternal perspective when I cannot see past my immediate situation. Ultimately, I'm encouraged to continue trusting in the Lord - even when nothing seems to make sense.

I do not think Christian music ought to be restricted to certain instruments or a certain traditional sound, and I do not see any evidence in scripture that would support the idea that drums or synths or electric guitars etc. "are from the devil".

Honestly, I don't know who's in it for the money, or who's in the music industry because they believe God has called them - but that could probably be said about a lot of preachers as well: especially the Televangelists.

I'm speculating here, but perhaps part of problem of the "lack of originality" in some Christian music is due to a fear some artists have that their work/ministry will not be supported if it does not meet certain expectations from the Christian community who perhaps are expecting hymns, praise & worship, black Gospel, southern Gospel, Christian AC, modern worship, or CCM. With such a limited market, stepping out and doing your own thing can be a big risk, and your Christian record label (if your fortunate enough to have one) may not be very supportive. In short, I do not put all the blame on Christian artists who need to earn a living.

On a personal note, one of my favorite Christian bands would have to be IONA, anyone heard of them?

http://www.iona.uk.com/

[ihavesinned]

No, I'm an atheist. My name is a tribute to Jimmy Swaggart. Try not to take anything I might say too seriously. Especially when it comes to christian music or televangelists.

Anyway, a buddy of mine is a hardcore christian and he pretty much agrees that most christian music leaves a lot to be desired. Strangely, a lot of it seems to lack "soul". I heard a song playing in a store one time called "our god is an awesome god" and almost fainted.

It just seems kinda corny. Like Jesus jigsaw puzzles. The glory of god doesn't seem so glorious when you cut it up into 1200 pcs. and grandma has to put them back together for fun...

[stillrecovering]

"I heard a song playing in a store one time called "our god is an awesome god" and almost fainted."

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif IHS, I probably would have had a similar reaction before I became a Christian.

Seriously though, I understand your perspective, and your hardcore Christian friend's too - there is some Christian music out there that I'm sorry to say is painful to the ears - with the corny lyrics and al; but, in my opinion, the good music outweighs the bad music.

Slowly Christian music is beginning to progress and move out into other musical genres - but it's real slow moving! Personally (besides the celtic/prog rock band I mentioned earlier, Iona), I also enjoy synthpop and eletronica - but good Christian music in those genres is hard to come by.

[grace2u]

I'm not supposed to be here . . . I'm supposed to be studying. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif What do you think of Iona's use of "Chi-Roi"? I like the band - just some people have different views about this symbol.

[grace2u]

OK - nevermind. I only mentioned it because I liked Iona but then when I started looking at this song wasn't sure who they were worshipping. I finally concluded that they worshipped the same God I did because of the following:

http://www.answers.com/topic/labarum

A monogram and symbol for Christ, consisting of the superimposed Greek letters chi (Χ) and rho (Ρ), often embroidered on altar cloths and clerical vestments. Also called Christogram.

I only mention this because some conspiracy theorist come against this. I feel pretty comfortable with the band and this song but would be interested if anyone else had to work through this or if it is me and my "little" mind alone.

[stillrecovering]

Sorry grace2u, I was not purposely ignoring you. I never did the research so I could not offer an opinion at the time. Thanks for enlightening me.

btw have you purchased the latest CD. My favorite song has to be "No Fear In Love".

[rachelengland]

"No, I'm an atheist. My name is a tribute to Jimmy Swaggart. Try not to take anything I might say too seriously. Especially when it comes to christian music or televangelists" IHS

Still recovering heed those words of IHS very, very closely-he is one of the funniest characters you will ever meet around here and everything he says is pretty much ....well BS

Hope your all doing well-if it a lovely day where you are get out and enjoy it!!!!! R

[stillrecovering]

Thanks rachel,

It's 30C and sunny today here in Toronto - or 86F and with the humidity, it feels closer to 35C/95F, and it's only June 2..... it's the dog I feel sorry for.

How's the weather in your part of the world?

[stillrecovering]

Thanks rachel,

It's 30C and sunny today here in Toronto - or 86F and with the humidity, it feels closer to 35C/95F, and it's only June 2..... it's the dog I feel sorry for.

How's the weather in your part of the world?

[rachelengland]

Hi StillR... Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier-I was enjoying the day!We had the same weather here in Michigan. Then around 6 we had some crazy thunderstorms -you know the kind whear it rains and hails but the sun it shining!

No doubt about the dog-I have a basset/beagle mix who can't handle the heat(she just wants to eat)!

BTW I was In Toronto about two years ago- AWESOME CITY! Fabulous culture and shopping-I stayed at the Pantages hotel..fantastic!

Take care..R

[stillrecovering]

"Then around 6 we had some crazy thunderstorms -you know the kind whear it rains and hails but the sun it shining!"

Well, you certainly don't see that too often! Looks like those thunderstorms of yours in Michigan are comin' my way...

Your basset/beagle mix sounds similar to my White Shepherd (always hungry). I made the mistake of walking her for an hour during the hottest time of the day - and let's just say by the time we got home - she was practically draggin' her tongue on the ground. I named her "Hope", and she'll be 2 next month.

Thrilled to hear you have such positive memories of Toronto. Yes, Toronto claims to be the most multicultural city in the world. It's a shame we lost to Beijing for the 2008 Summer Games - otherwise you might have another excuse to come back for another visit. Oh well, there's always Vancouver in 2010.

If you don't mind me asking, which part of MI are you from?

[rachelengland]

I am from Grand Rapids, Michigan. I was born In Michigan, lived here until I was 20..I then spent 8 years living in South America..I returned because I missed home and family-I love change and well, let me just say, this is very- very religious area and also suffering terribly with unemployment..

I too wish Toronto would of beat out Bejing.. I am not proud to see China getting to host the olympics..

Oh, I will get back to Toronto soon I hope-when I went it was fall but I need to see it in the summer and I have never gotten a better massage anywhere lolhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[rachelengland]

I meant to say I love change and am ready for another move! But my edit option isn't working..
Have a peaceful nights rest stillrecovering-don't let life get you down(that's a quote from a song by Jon Gibson the Christian version of Terrance Trent D'Arby) haha

Anyway-though I am a deist, I will leave the thread this evening with an old Larry Normal song...

"Why should the Devil have all the Good Music"??

[rachelengland]

PS. "I always found the comparisons hillarious. If I want to hear TTD, I will listen to TTD and not an imitation". SR

That is very good advice!

And I will get in touch with you. Rhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif