Christbs purpose

[turtle]

Christ purpose

Isaiah 53:6-7 KJV
(6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

When I think about being in pain or agony, I think of people screaming, or in open protest to what is happening. Pictures of New Orleans reminds me of the human suffering that happened so recently for all to see. Though there was a lot to see there was even more the media could not show. The people’s reaction and the screams where probably the most that impacted my mind. For us as humans we take a look at this and see no reason for this type of human suffering There was a purpose for Christ suffering.

Christ suffered so that we might have life. God laid all the sin and guilt upon His Son. He took the blame for us. For our inability to live the life He desired us to live. He bore our transgression against God. So many times I hear people say if God existed why did He give us a choice? God choice He gave was to either believe or not to believe. When we understand God’s love for us we begin to understand how much Christ truly suffered on the cross for our sins. God created us, He knew we could not live without Him the life that was pleasing to Him. That why He gave a choice that we could believe on Him. By understanding Christ took the weight of the world on his shoulders for our sins and paid the ultimate price which is death and rejection from God. For God could not look at his Own Son with the weight of sin on him.

[turtle]

Mark 15:34 KJV
(34) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Christ was lead to the slaughter as sheep was in biblical times for sacrifice. He did not cry out and try to stop the events. He was doing His Father’s will. He knew a time would come that God His Father could not bare to see Him yet he continued on to bare our sins, because He loved us. Sin in our life is rejecting God and His plan for salvation. It is rejecting an opportunity to please God. We please God when we recognize we can not live for God without Him providing for us a way through the Holy Spirit. And one can not receive the Holy Spirit without first believing in God and accepting His plan for salvation.

The purpose of Christ suffering was so you and I might understand how much God truly loves each and everyone of us. We might understand that Christ bore our sin. Yes God could of stopped His own Son from dying, but He did not. He allowed our sins to be place on His Son. God knew that Christ would rise from the grave would have victory over death. Knew it would only be a short period of suffering. Adam and Eve when they sinned the separation of Man began from God. God desired to restore that separation from Him. And in order to do that a price had to be paid for the transgression of man. Man felt they owed God something for their sin of disobedience. But Christ took our blame. He bore our blame, because we could not. Our guilt was upon us and we in our best ability could not grasp that God still loved us. Instead our shame separated us. Our shame held us back from asking for forgiveness. Instead we look to blame someone else. Finally God said blame me and allowed His Son to die. He took our responsibility because we could not. Eve blamed the snake, Adam blamed God for making Eve. God took responsibility, for He had created us.

Dear Heavenly Father thank you for bearing our disobedience for our sins. Thank you for loving us enough to Say. “I created you and yes I did not make you perfect, but I love you and I do not want you to hide or ignore me because of your sin. I want you to just love me back. I will make the way, for you to live forever with me if you will just believe. If you will just love me.” Thank you Lord for Loving me enough to bare my burden of sin. My guilt for failing to see your love for me. In Jesus precious name Amen.

by Turtle

[bluewater2]

Jesus' purpose was no different than the purpose of any preacher who is "trying to do it differently." It is only those that CHOOSE to believe in the doctrine of sin, an manmade doctrine, and CHOOSE to believe that an ancient and antiquated book is filled with the word of god.

For those that believe that Jesus' purpose was to die for our sins, I say that you are slighting the life of a decent man who spent his short life speaking to people in an attempt to make them feel good. Isn't that the purpose of any spiritual leader?

[turtle]

bluewater, I want to ask you a question. I think as an athetist you will agree on something that christians believe and that is morality. Morality being knowing the difference between right and wrong. I would be surprised to know if you don't believe serial killing is wrong, rape, child abuse, stealing, hurting others and so forth. And I would be surprised if you said you never loved.
Morality we both can agree on, but what we do not agree on is where immorality and morality come from.

Morality comes from God immorality from disobedience to God. Do I think preachers should make people feel good definitely not necessarily. I doubt if many old testament prophets made anyone feel good. Probably made them made for many died in the name of God, so has many religious leaders. Jesus made alot of people angry because He spoke truth. Pharisees did not like him nether did the scribes or sadducees.

If I tell you sex outside of marriage is a sin and you do it would I not make you mad. Would it make you hate me. If I told you, you can not go to the beach and play with your friends would this make you made especially if I restricted you some how? What if a big tidal wave came and took your friends away would you then thank me. Would you then say I am no longer mad. God wants to stop all people from going to hell. Yes he has power to stop it. But He rather give us free choice. Does God not want you to play at the beach, no, but he doesn't want you to come to harm. Adultry can lead to someone killing someone. Adultry can lead someone to hurting there kids because there kids see what they do. Does adultry have some fun, I am sure it does. But what are the conquences of that fun.

Religion is not all feel good, I wish it was. Religion if you believe and sin has consequences as well as disbelief. Sin is sin no matter how one looks at it. Immorality is wrong whether looked through the eye of a religious fanatic or not. Immorality cause harm to others and also brings about chaos. On the news the other night people are fondling people without permission on subways is this not wrong behavior. Where is morality for you bluewater. Do you have any???

[turtle]

One more question bluewater do you take full responsibility for those you hurt, especially in cyberspace???

[bluewater2]

"Morality comes from God immorality from disobedience to God." Certainly that is an assumption that you make and believe in. I happen to disagree on the source of morality. Different gods seem to have different standards of morality. I happen to think that morality comes from the mind of man and common sense. Morality is somewhat evolutionary and to a certain degree evolves over time, although the standard do's and don't such as killing and stealing tend to stay the same. Not all religions and faiths believe that sex outside of marriage is a sin.

"One more question bluewater do you take full responsibility for those you hurt, especially in cyberspace???" Of course I do. I would never intentionally hurt anyone, but I must say, if questioning someones beliefs makes them hurt, than I would say that the problem lies with the person with the beliefs. I have a motto: "Truth always withstands scrutiny."

Do you feel hurt when I question your beliefs?

[turtle]

Bluewater you and I have talked before and have always been pretty peaceful. I think we both agree to disagree. But let me ask you a question, What in your opinion is causing moral decline. I know you know the Christian view by heart. It is that God is being taken out of school and out of public life. So how would you fix the moral decline if you were in charge. Once you believe you have power to change things in your own life what about lives of others?

If I minded you asking my beliefs blue I would not respond to your atheistic views with my views. Have I ever been hurt on line sure but who hasn't. But beliefs no. My beliefs are still as strong as yours if not more strong then yours when we first meet here on factnet. So my determination to see you see a loving God is even more in my thought, but do I want you to change because of me. Never I only want change if you truly ever come to understanding God is real.

I think you agree we should not bash each other because we think differently, and I think we are both honest about the fact you love to see me stop believing as much as I love to see you recognize God.

What saddens me is you don't even recognize a supreme being of any kind. With all the science you still seem to lack the knowledge of truth of a God that exist. Maybe one day you will understand before it is to late for you.

So I continue praying and you continue to hope I will stop. One day one of us will win and I know who will in my opinion, but I doubt you will agree. I think we can agree to disagree and accept that if not then you are no more the peacemaker of atheism that you proclaim.

[bluewater2]

I have no interest in winning anything, turtle. I am only interested in trying to make people think.

Certainly taking god out of schools assumes that god was ever there in the first place. If you god is real, what does being in school have to do with anything? If your god is real, why is there so much interreligious fighting, christian against muslim, and on and on? I think that to equate god with morality is naive and simple minded.

I do not honestly believe that we are in the moral decline that you assume we are in. The world has always had immorality, murder and bad behavior. Just read the bible, it is full of it.

The only way that there will ever be peace, at least in my mind, is if all religions accept the other as being just as valid. If that cannot happen, which is more likely the case as seen here on this forum, the only answer is to put religion in it's place: Jesus said it best, "Pray behind closed doors and your father will hear you."

Keep god out of school, teach tolerance for all religions and those who have no belief in god, and we might have a chance.

Tough order though when you beleive that "the only way to the father is but through me."

Thank goodness 2/3rds of the world disagrees with that statement.

[turtle]

So you think by doing knowing but having peace between religious groups it will solve everything. What about the law of the land, does it need to be stricter or should people just get patted on there wrist??? What is proper punishment for crimes??? Should we have even a death penalty. How should we make kids behave. Just like to here your thoughts???

[bluewater2]

"So you think by doing knowing but having peace between religious groups it will solve everything." I think you probably meant "nothing" rather than "knowing." If that is the case, no it will not solve everything, but it would be a real display of tolerance that can only be good. Respecting the beliefs or lack of beliefs of others. Judgeing people by their works, not by their words.

"What about the law of the land, does it need to be stricter or should people just get patted on there wrist???" I think that the law of the land needs to be determined by those that live on the land and the the punishment should be whatever it is determined it should be by the laws as agreed upon. That is how society works.

"What is proper punishment for crimes???" That obviously depends on the crime and what the people determine that the punishment should be.

"Should we have even a death penalty." That is for the people to decide. Personally, I think that it is not a deterent and that not as severe a punishment as life in prison. It also costs more to implement the death penalty. I also think that it does not bode well for society in general. That is the opinion of most of the world, anyway.

" How should we make kids behave." I am not sure that "making kids behave" is the approach that I would embrace. I come from the position that kids WANT to behave if given good examples to follow. All children want to do the right thing generally, as long as they have a clear picture of what is expected of them. That has been my experience. I have raised a few and it has worked for me.

[turtle]

I think american religious groups in general are pretty tolerant except on discussion boards like this.And reason I say on boards like this because people are expected to debate. In general I would not go and pester my neighbor about Jesus, but no doubt I would weave it into conversation if opportunity opened up.I wouldn't hold them down tell they had enough of me and became a Christian, just to shut me up. I have had friends the direct opposite of christianity in the since of what they believe. Did they know what I believe sure, but I to knew what they believed.

Most don't go bashing their way to make others believe there way. If you live beside me bluewater I do not doubt we be friends and no doubt you would know what I believed, but I would n't push it on you.

Point I am making most groups in America do live in peace except for radicals of religion. Radicals do cause the problem in most religions I do not mean radicals in the since of belief, but radicals in the since that if you do not see it my way you shouldn't be on the planet type of group. Islam is supposely to be peaceful, but if a christian goes in their country to share the gospel and to work i guarantee they will not live long if they share it with the wrong person. americans are much more tolerant though we do have radical groups of every faith in our land.

If I would label you bluewater I label you a communist. No public religion and control people into keep their mouths shut about there faith. Not all athetist are communist mind you but alot are. What happened to Russia and why the decline as a nation when they choose not to allow God in their nation? Though no doubt many more people could argue this better then I.

Key word in the above paragraph is IF, please take note.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). bluewater2:

To begin with, Rev. Turtle lacks the 'integrit' to discuss any biblical subject. Having said that, I take exception to your ludicrous claim of Jesus being a "good" man. Either Jesus is exactly who he claimed to be or he is a liar period. A liar is never a "good" person as you indicate.

I would suggest you read "Lord, Liar or Lunatic" by Josh McDowell (SP?).

[turtle]

TATM - i would think first before calling someone names. You refuse to answer question on your authority. I have always been truthful with you, I just choose not to argue anymore with you TATM, Why is not arguing a loss of intergrity to you. What it should say i have wised up that I can not convince you of anything and have not lost my own faith. I still believe as deeply as I always have.

ATAM i know you and blue are the same as you and franklin. Why not just throw a whole party here with your friends. Second thought before the party I require each and every person to read the very first and second post they go together. Then think before you type. Then enjoy a good time bashing turtle because that is exactly what you all like to do. You like to bash those that don't agree with you even if they give you evidence to the contary. I have seen how you have closed this board because of bashing. I have seen how you all think you are correct in what you believe. But see I am entitled to my beliefs as well because I read this in america, I think you must live in a foreign galaxy, or nation. True americans believe in equality for all mankind. That is what america fought for. It was however built on christian principles despite what you think. Christians principle to decide for yourself what you believe. If you chose not God God still exist, you just have no fellowship with Him for eternity. You can worship baal, allah, buddah, and many more if you choose here, but what makes you people mad is when people worship Jesus. I will worship Jesus because He is the Son of God.

So throw your party here with bluewater and the rest of the gang. Get rid of all the christians because you hate them. Hate is not love. Love is not hate. Love is however God and love is something God gives to man. Himself to redeem you to Him. He doesn't like the fact we hide from him. Why do you hide from Jesus???

[bluewater2]

"Having said that, I take exception to your ludicrous claim of Jesus being a "good" man. Either Jesus is exactly who he claimed to be or he is a liar period. A liar is never a "good" person as you indicate." I do not think that the bible gives an accurate portrayal of what was going on at the time or of the things that Jesus said and meant when he spoke. It is in your system of beliefs that he is either the son of god or a liar. I think he was a good man, a speaker, teacher, what have you who was elevated to a position in an effort to create a religion, long after he died. My system of beliefs does not require the idolization of a dead person in order to make sense of the world.

"I would suggest you read "Lord, Liar or Lunatic" by Josh McDowell (SP?)." I have read McDowells book, and also "Evidence that Demands a Verict", and the verdict is that McDowell is a lunatic.

[bluewater2]

Turtle, don't be so sensitive. First of all, I have never bashed you. If you feel bashed BY ME, you have issues that I hope your love for your god can help you come to grips with. I do not get where you think that ATM and I are the same or similar. He is a holy roller, I am not. If you feel bashed by him or her, take it up with ATM. If you feel bashed by me, show me where I have bashed you and I will be happy to appologize.

"Why do you hide from Jesus???" I hide from no one. Especially from some guy who has been dead for 2000 years. I have been here for more than 50 years, most of it with an open mind and heart, yet the more I live, the more I see christianity and the belief in the idol Jesus for what it is, just one way of thinking. I have never been one to believe in mysticism and the supernatural like you. And that is ok. I do believe that people should be entitled to believe what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). bluewater2:

"I do not think that the bible gives an accurate portrayal . . .."
End quote.

Perhaps you would be so good as to tell me which parts are believable and which are outright false. When Jesus is cursing people, was he being good or bad?

ps. It is best to ignore Rev. Turtle. She got caught on another thread condemning women preachers. Unfortunately, she conveniently forgot to mention she is one.

[bluewater2]

Unbelievable:
Birth from a virgin
Parting of the Red Sea as portrayed in the bible
Resurrection
Noahs Arc
Eve from one of Adams ribs
Life after death

Jesus has the right, as does anyone, to "curse" someone. Generally speaking, I would not hang around with someone who cursed me. Maybe by curse you mean "reprimanding someone for the kind of life they live." If that is the case, leading by example is the best teacher. He did that fairly well. Again, to me, Jesus was just one of many historical figures, as was Buddha, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, thousands of them really, who had a way with words and relayed some universal truths. My belief is that most of what is and has been written about Jesus inflates him to a personality that he himself would not agree with. I am certain that he would not be a Christian, certainly not as I see them here. I doubt that Jesus would advocate ignoring someone who didnt agree with you. As a matter of fact, he seemed to hang out and be comfortable with all types of people.

As far as ignoring turtle goes, I cannot ignore anyone who is obviously searching. Also, anyone can be a reverend nowadays.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). bluewater2:

Quoting: "Jesus . . . Martin Luther King."
End quote.

Now there is a contrast. You call both men, good. Amazingly, one is a liar, the other a womanizer.

Quoting: "I am certain that he would not be a Christian, certainly not as I see them here."
End quote.

Or otherwise, we must admit. Jesus Christ would not be welcome in any church today.

Amazing, you failed to point to Jonah's fish story as unbelievable. Nor was creation mentioned as unbelievable.

[bluewater2]

There are certainly many stories in the bible that are unbelievable, I just chose the ones that came to mind quickly. I am not saying, of course, that like most books of fables and parables, that there are not some good lessons to be learned. All of the good lessons are really in the old testament, and with that in mind, I would use the Jewish Bible version of the old testament because just too many things have been changed from the Jewish Bible to the Christian old testament. I figure, why not go straight to the horses mouth.

[still_small_voice]

"All of the good lessons are really in the old testament"

Like _____ for example? Really, with all the blood, death, violence and judgment... the stoning and burning and did I say blood? I would think the teachings of Jesus are much more valuable. You have to admit, don't you, that the dark ages aside, Christian teaching, not necessarily what was practiced, if based on love, mercy, kindness, and hope... are a postive message and much closer in spirit to the universal truth you mention than the OT.

Also, I afford the OT absolutely no "less" errant status. To do so is based on little facts and more on what one wants to believe. They both contain errors. The evidence is very strong for multiple authorship of much of the books which tradition claims and the title claims were written by only one author.

The multiple author theory (near fact) would account for the contradictions contained between not just Genesis 1 and 2, but much of the OT. There has been much modern research that is sound, on this matter.

[still_small_voice]

I have to say though that Ecclesiastes is my favorite book in the bible. That is in the OT.

[bluewater2]

Jesus said very little that wasn't already said in the Jewish Bible, just in a different way. Same message, different messenger. There is enough violence in the new testament to go around as well. Not everything in the bible is worth sharing, I agree.

[turtle]

Same messenger mr bluewater same messenger. Same messenger that gave me the answer you think I still seek. I think I just want some confirmation, because of my own lack of faith. bluewater may God someday open your blind eyes so you might see, and may God truely bless you and your family.

turtle

[arron]

turtle how are you are you back on line. i go now to christian forums. and cultbusters. they have some good discussions there without all the argueing they usually keep the detracters out somehow. hope to see you there if not on here again

[turtle]

Matthew 18:11-13 KJV
(11) For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
(12) How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
(13) And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

[bluewater2]

"they have some good discussions there without all the argueing they usually keep the detracters out somehow." It's called censorship.

Turtle, it is my belief that there is no need for Christ or the New Testament of one desires a road map in biblical form. The Jewish Bible works just fine and has all of the important stuff. Any other religion that uses the bible as "it's" book, is a spinoff.

"How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?" Actually, no. Generally they will not go off looking for the one that went astray as it jeopordizes the larger flock and makes them vulnerable to predators.

If I ever feel lost, I'll let you know.

[turtle]

Bluewater,

You claim to be a parent which child of yours did you worry about the most. The one that was out doing whatever or the one at home??? God concern is for the one that is not at home. You fail to see because you are blind. And yes back in Bible days they would search for missing sheep. Shepards job was to keep all the sheep together if one went missing he would go and rescue it. Sheep in general are dumb animals and would get down on a clef and forget how to climb back up. Shephard would come and rescue it.

God loves all His creation He searches for those that will hear his voice and follow Him. Maybe one day your ears will be open and your eyes will open.

[bluewater2]

"God concern is for the one that is not at home." You would not know that unless you were taught to believe it. Just because a book says it is so does not make it so. You choose to live in a belief system whose sole source is an old book. You were obviously lost enough at one time to find that book comforting to you and you were lost enough not to question the things in it that go against all sense of reason and logic. That is ok for you, and I am glad you have it as an anchor to help you feel safe. I hope that one day, for the sake of tolerance and understanding, that not all people are comforted by the same things. My life is full and complete and I know exactly where my home is and who my father is: my home is not with a mythical god or a 2000 year dead guy, and my father's name is Bill.

"Maybe one day your ears will be open and your eyes will open." Perhaps one day your eyes and ears will open to the reality that there are billions of people on this planet and many different ideas of what god is, which book works for them, that many do not believe in god, and that they are all just as happy as you.

May I ask how old you are turtle?

[turtle]

Bluewater whether I had a Bible or not I would believe in God, reason being, I knew when He spoke to my heart. You do not have to have the Bible to know God. The Bible just enriches the evidence that is spoken to the heart. I choose to believe not because of a book but because I have experienced God for myself whether by a small stream, or walk through the woods, or a quiet hot day or a very busy afternoon with friends. You do not have to read the Bible to know God but it confirms what God speaks to one's heart. Something only a believer perhaps can understand.

[bluewater2]

You call it knowing god, I call it appreciating the beauty around me. I don't attribute it to god, just to the way things are.

Mysticsm and the supernatural are just not my thing anymore. But I do understand that it is a comfortable place for many like yourself.

"Something only a believer perhaps can understand." That sounds so arrogant and condescending. It is certainly something that I don't need to understand to live a full and happy life.

You avoided my question about your age. How come?

[rachelengland]

My life is full and complete..bw

Really BW..you are totally complete..I never knew a person could get to that place ..where they never longed for anything else then what was in front of them at this very moment..I would like to know your secret..

I'm in my 30's- maybe that complete feeling will come in say, 20 more years....R

[still_small_voice]

I think the secret is lower expectations leads to lessened disappoinment. If you don't ask life for much it is hard to be discontent.

No offense to Mr BW, with the following religious reference but I believe Zen touches on this a little from what I know of it. Unhealthy and fantastic attachments lead to suffering. This could be expanded to attachment to unrealistic and unhealthy religious beliefs. The void can be peaceful and quiet.

I think I read somewhere BW is in his eighties. Maybe I am wrong about that. I hope that I am at peace at that age, if God is gracious that I should live so long, and that I would have gained at least some smidgen of wisdom along the way.

[rachelengland]

If you are correct-BW is the best looking 80 year old I ever saw(LOL)

SSV..I was under the "impression" you aren't very "impressed" with any of the revealed religions- am I correct?

I feel christ's purpose was just like what all of our's is..to live our life to the best of our ability- to be respectful and loving towards others..R



(Message edited by rachelengland on June 28, 2007)

[bluewater2]

I got a great sense of fulfillment once I realized I was ok with nothing and very happy just to be alive. The rest is extra and that is great. I know that anything I want, I can have. I am very realistic about what is available to me and very content with that knowledge. That is my secret.

I am in my 50's.

I think Zen is a cool way of looking at things. It definately has something to offer, but certainly is not THE answer.

I agree with Rachels understanding of Jesus's purpose.

[turtle]

BW You avoided my question about your age. How come?


<font color="ff0000">women never tell there age.</font>

[turtle]

I think bluewater it is hard for you to grasp of a supreme being, not so much of good works and good character. Why do you not believe in a supreme being. When you think of how wonderfully you yourself are made or a tree outside you can not see the handiwork of even a supreme being. On the discovery channel about a year ago I seen a show that science at least is being to recognize a supreme being a creator. What caused you so much pain to dismiss even a creator.

[bluewater2]

No pain involved at all in my knowing there is not a supreme being. I was born not believing in a supreme being and as I became older and started to learn that there were religions out there that taught that there was one, I weighed all of the evidence, observed the world, it's beauty and its ugliness and realized that no supreme being could be responsible for this. If there was a supreme being, he would do a better job. So I just continued looking, observing, analyzing and it only fortified my belief that life is life, some good, some bad, and that it is all wonderful and amazing. I just don't see what the need is for a belief in a supreme being. It is just too bizarre and odd. I believe that people are born not knowing of god and that there is some point in their lives that they have the decision to continue with that or decide to become part of a religion that does believe in a supreme being. Mysticism is just not for me. Again, there was no pain involved in dismissing a creator, just an acknowledging what is reasonable and logical.

[still_small_voice]

"I am in my 50's."

Ooops, sorry there. There are so many threads on here, I can't keep track of the info. If I was indeed in my eighties I could claim senility, in my thirties my only excuse is how I lived in the eighties http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

"SSV..I was under the "impression" you aren't very "impressed" with any of the revealed religions- am I correct?"

Some are better than others. I think morality transcends the religious labels attached. I think we all have a conscience to discern right from wrong.

I think Jesus' teachings are very important and the impact on history and society is undeniable.

I think, it is very important that dogmatic, intolerant, narrow minded, bigoted, fundamentalism... of whatever variety, be opposed at every turn... when that belief, or those of that belief begin to impose their will on others.

Theocracy is a destroyer of freedom. Freedom is fundamental to happiness. So a fundamentalist that is true to the term, should be opposed to controlling others.

Really, we are all fundamentalists in a sense. It just depends upon what we base our fundamentals and upon what foundation we build our lives.

Anyway, revealed religion? They can keep their revelations to themselves, faith is a private matter, I have my own spiritual perceptions based on my own experience, reason, and thoughts. Thank you.

This world is suffering a famine of philosophy and art in my opinion... revealed religion is a destroyer of both of these things.

End of rant.

[rachelengland]

Good stuff ssv..thank you for your ranting!

You see that is just it-Blue never grew up with religion...he really never had to deal with the guilt of letting one go-because his childhood was free from the bonds and chains so many of us in adulthood are carrying around...

It is hard for those who are involved in religion to understand how one could be content without it...

[bluewater2]

That was a good post, SSV. I like your comment about philosophy and art. I must agree. I certainly agree that one can be spiritual without god or religion.

Thank you, Rachel.

[turtle]

I went through a period of years where I did not pick up my Bible, did not go to church, and did not pray. I even had an old testament teacher who did not believe that first five books of the old testament was a fairytales and taught it as so.
Meet many during that time that were athesistic. And still I had knowledge of God though I did not live like I do now. An actually did not understand if God fit into my everyday life or not, but soon learned He was the most important person(being) in my life.

Believe it or not I have never served God because of my fear of hell. Actually that thought was never in my head tell much later in my life, but still did not effect me in the sense of thinking Jesus was a fire escape. I always understood God loved me. That all I ever understood in my heart for many years. I had accept Christ before I understood what becoming a Christian was all about, which sounds strange I know. The impace of sin and the consequence for sin really did not impact me til much later in life and maybe if it had impacted me more maybe I would not have gone through the struggles I did in college.

God's love is what motivates me to havea relationship with Him nothing else adn the knowledge He gives man free will to obey Him or not to obey him. God could stop all the hurt and evil in the world, but simply it would not give us a choice to do evil or to do good.

Bluewater no doubt you desire to do good and try to live your life accordingly. YOu have half your battle in religion beat by just that, but even being good and kind is a religion to itself. It is saying I I I. It is saying a person can do it all without God. Even if there was a supreme being a person is better then God. That is exactly what the Devil said to God when He want to take over Heaven. That is when Satan fell. Now once you don't believe in God this shouldnt' effect you what I said about satan. So bluewater once you can do it all without God please make me a star that will twinkle in the sky, or a mountain that will be higher then the highest mountain. Okay you can't do those thing and in your opinion they just exist.

Can you make me a body of water that connects to a bigger body of water. I am sure you could build a lake or a pond or even a canal. But what about all these streams flowing back into the ocean. A mountain built with rocks in place to hold it to form one big hilltop. Can you make me a duckbill platyapus, or a whale. Nope you can't but God can, a supreme being can.

[yaakov2]

turtle

The real question is why you feel that you must attempt to persuade Bluewater to accept your beliefs. Each person has their own life experiences and interprets the lessons learned their own way. I have no doubt that Bluewater (or any other person) can be ethical and moral; can do good; can enjoy their life; without having to share my personal belief system.

Professing a belief in a certain set of religious values does not guarantee that a person will live a better life without them.

<font color="0000ff">It is saying a person can do it all without God. Even if there was a supreme being a person is better then God. That is exactly what the Devil said to God when He want to take over Heaven. That is when Satan fell.</font>

See? Within your belief system, you have a ready made explanation for when a religious person does bad things, “the devil made me do it”. It means that a person can do bad things while agreeing with your religious beliefs. However, somehow you are claiming that it is worse for a person that believes differently than you?

[turtle]

poor yaakov my jewish friend how are you? sorry you miss understand Yaakov and that is taken from Isaiah. Actually yaakov I am comparing bluewater to satan and saying this is satan response the same as satan is in the Bible. not that satan made bluewater denounce God.

Now yaakov you and I know bluewater will not convert but why not get into his mind a little on how he thinks about the world and creation. And who knows maybe he will hear truth in our conversation. Do you not know even jews were suppose to convert others. bluewater and I agree to disagree about God. That is why it is peaceful here. Though I will keep speaking to him about God and He will keep speaking to me about not believing in God and what it means to him, unless he gets bored with our conversation.

[bluewater2]

Hi Yaakov. I get a kick out of people like turtle who try to convert me with their reasoning. I think it is cute, actually. It boils down to her believing in mysticism and the supernatural. People like turtle are blind to the notion that if there is a god, the last thing that he, she, it would require is for acknowledgement is idol worship. Good works should be enough, even without ever mentioning the word god for an entire lifetime.

I wonder what the "poor yaakov" thing is all about.

[yaakov2]

Bluewater

I'll leave you to your fun then.

I think the "poor yaakov" comment was because turtle is unable to conceive of anyone being happy without agreeing with turtle's belief system. I assume that turtle must think I sit around moping, wondering what's wrong with my life since I don’t acknowledge his god.

Oy, just 5 more days, then our acquaintanceship will end. It’s been fun, ya old-timer. I’m only in my 40’s.

[turtle]

Poor yaakov was because he missed the point and assumed I meant something else. It was because of ignorance I point out his flaw in what He thought I said. He assumed because I am a christian I was saying the devil made you do it blue.

Now yaakov why you miss the point or the comparison I do not know with you being jewish and it is an old testament reference you should of known. Is the prophetic books still to much a mystery for you my friend.

[turtle]

Poor yaakov was because he missed the point and assumed I meant something else. It was because of ignorance I point out his flaw in what He thought I said. He assumed because I am a christian I was saying the devil made you do it blue.

Now yaakov why you miss the point or the comparison I do not know with you being jewish and it is an old testament reference you should of known. Is the prophetic books still to much a mystery for you my friend.

[turtle]

Blue how many christians have you meet that are willing to put up with you being an athetist. What I mean will take the time I have to continue to talk with you even though you disagree with them. Most sthetist will talk to christians but few christians will put up with athetist.

[bluewater2]

I rarely waste my time on someone as closed minded and unwilling to see the ways of others as being valid as I have with you. You are certainly right about christians being less willing to put up with atheists. I take that as being because, essentially, christians like yourself are in a house of cards, and down deep, know it.

The reason that yaakov doesn't subscribe to your view of the "prophetic books" is because the prophetic books, as written and understood by those that have transcribed and protected it in the most accurate and original way think that your messiah is not. Your idol is an imposter, and likely never wanted to be in the first place. Your old testament is a butchery of the original Jewish Bible. You can argue that point all you want, but the bottom line, there would be no christianity if someone hadnt decided to take the Jewish Bible and rewrite it to fit their agenda.

(Message edited by bluewater2 on June 29, 2007)

[egk]

Bluewater,

<font color="0000ff">The reason that yaakov doesn't subscribe to your view of the "prophetic books" is because the prophetic books, as written and understood by those that have transcribed and protected it in the most accurate and original way think that your messiah is not. Your idol is an imposter, and likely never wanted to be in the first place. Your old testament is a butchery of the original Jewish Bible. You can argue that point all you want, but the bottom line, there would be no christianity if someone hadnt decided to take the Jewish Bible and rewrite it to fit their agenda. </font>

Since you are open minded, please read up on the Biblical texts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. You will find that scholars have determined a 'proto-Septuagint' family of Hebrew texts, in addition to a 'proto-Masoritic' family of Hebrew texts.

In a review of the scholarly edition of one of DSS texts of Samuel, the DSS scholar, Dr. Cross, stated to the effect that before the discovery of the DSS, most persons assumed that the Septuagint was a poor translation of the Masoritic text. Now this particular DSS text of Samuel proves that the Septuagint was an accurate translation of a Hebrew text of Samuel. This particular text was well used before it was hid in the cave so it cannot be dismissed as a defected copy that was never used. You don't need to believe me, go to a library and get the May-June 07 issue of Biblical Archeaological Review and read the review for yourself. (The quote and the May-June are from memory. The issue is the one before the current issue and features the discovery of the DSS on the cover.)

Thus, much of what you call the "butchering" of the Jewish Bible, existed in Jewish Bibles two centuries before Christianity!

Yaakov will argue that the Masoritic text is the correct one. As a Christian, I would argue that the Hebrew basis of the Septuagint is the correct one. What can't be argued is that Christians some how created a text 200 years before they existed to support their agenda!

EGK

[turtle]

Bluewater are you into scientology??? Have I figured you out. You know we do not agree psychologically either not just Spiritually. God is supreme. Jesus Is Lord. And God solves man's problems.For after all God gave man a brain, to think, to feel, to reason. He did not create mindless puppets for man to push around. No I am not a health and wealther never will be. Even if I had millions. Because riches on earth are only temporal here. To be rich is to have God by yourside. God loves you bluewater. It not important to me whether you agree, I am just stating a fact that science can not prove or disprove at this time, but faith proves over and over God truly exists.

[bluewater2]

Scientology is idiotic when you consider some of it's principal beliefs.

"God loves you bluewater." You believe god loves me. I believe god does not exist.

"I am just stating a fact that science can not prove or disprove at this time," Logical thought processes demand that something be shown to exist before someone must show that it does not. It is impossible to prove that something that does not exist, does not exist. Faith merely shows that you believe is something inspite of the facts.

[turtle]

God gives facts to believers and not non believers. I know because I know which I know is not a good enough answer for a non believer.

[grace2u]

Regarding the textual variances among the Dead Sea Scrolls we find that these can be divided into three textual categories (ch. 9, p. 7-8):

1) Manuscripts which represent the Masoretic-Traditional Text.
2) Manuscripts which represent the text of the Septuagint.
3) Manuscripts which represent the Samaritan text. However, according to Dr. Emanuel Tov (who became co-editor-in-chief of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1991) there are two additional groups.
4) Texts which demonstrate a unique style of writing, spelling, and grammar found only at Qumran.
5) Nonaligned texts which do not show any allegiance to the four other groups. About 25% of the Biblical manuscripts found at Qumran fall into the nonaligned category.

Regarding category number one “about 40% of the biblical texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls are Masoretic.” (ch. 9, p. 10) Category number three also resembles the Masoretic Test and account for 25% of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is important to note that “only 5% of the Dead Sea Scrolls are Proto-Septuagint.” (Holland, Manuscript Evidence, ch. 9, p. 11)

[bluewater2]

Scientology is idiotic when you consider some of it's principal beliefs.

"God loves you bluewater." You believe god loves me. I believe god does not exist.

"I am just stating a fact that science can not prove or disprove at this time," Logical thought processes demand that something be shown to exist before someone must show that it does not. It is impossible to prove that something that does not exist, does not exist. Faith merely shows that you believe is something inspite of the facts.

[turtle]

Bible 1 0 1 Abraham believed God. God lead him to the promiseland. Fact it is known as Israel today. Sarah bore Isaac at old age past child bearing years. Impossible at that time in man's standards, but not impossible for God. Though Abraham at one point tried to make it happen in his ability he soon found it would have to be God way for the promise child to be born. Faith was established even more strongly by these events in Abraham's life. Thee God told Abraham to take his son to be sacrificed then provide a ram for sacrifice. God provided God tested Abrahams faith. Abraham believe in the hope of a resurrection that is all abraham need to believe in order of God to provide a ram.

Though this story may sound like just a story it is what every believer experiences in there life as they believe. In other words God lays something on a believers heart. Things happen and come to past strengthening the believers faith. Then again the believer is tested and when the believer trust God to deliver He does. fact is faith in God. The tset a believer goes through is not for God for He knows the heart of man but for the man/women so He can stand assured trusting and testifying of who God is without doubt.

[bluewater2]

"God gives facts to believers and not non believers." What a stupid way for god to do things.

[grace2u]

Actually, the facts are all around you. They are there for all to see. Some people are just blind.

Usually it is man not seeing or listening not God not talking or showing.

[grace2u]

But sometimes God does open our ears -

Job 33:12-17 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man. (13) Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters. (14) For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. (15) In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; (16) Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, (17) That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.

[bluewater2]

"Actually, the facts are all around you." Name one.

[grace2u]

OK C hope you don't mind:

http://www.just4kidsmagazine.com/teens4jesus/thereisaGod.html

[bluewater2]

To me, that is a moronic presentation that insults anyone with any intelligence. The fact of the matter is that over billions of years, millions of planets, stars, suns, objects that once rotated around each other, do, did, and have crashed into each other inspite of what you claim is evidence of gods reality. That is but one rebuttal to that goofy site. Suffice to say, that if you believe in the ability of a virgin human to give birth, resurrection, Noahs arc, Eve coming from Adams rib, you will believe anything and it is not my intention to rob you of that security blanket.

Please, give me one fact, not a web site.

[grace2u]

The website had "more" than one fact.

Oh and virgins can give birth. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif (Although that is different from an immaculate conception.)

But you would have me to believe that I came from an ape?

I know for a "fact" that I came from a little fishy sperm LOL! and an egg. How is that any crazier than the things you think are crazy . . . yet they are facts!

Oh and by the way it is impossible to rob me of my security blanket and covering.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You guys ask for one thing and I give you more and you still complain. And I thought I was hard to please!

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.


Here is a question - does God believe in Atheists?

Doesn't matter if it is on a website like: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html or if I actually type it - another example of bad "logic".

[turtle]

Bluewater no doubt these verses will be over your head but that is okay some christians will appreciate this passage about now.

1 Corinthians 1:19-31 KJV
(19) For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
(20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
(21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
(22) For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
(23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
(24) But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
(25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
(26) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
(27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
(29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
(30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
(31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

[bluewater2]

"Bluewater no doubt these verses will be over your head" Not hardly. Mere fodder for the thinking man.

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Sounds very counter productive. Wisdom and understanding can only be good. Any belief system that preaches otherwise is sick.

"hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" No, actually, god's words appear quite foolish in the hands of people who are unable to think for themselves and misuse them.

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:" How stupid to require proof of the supernatural and it's truth to stand up to reason and logic.

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" Because to the Jews, who use the Jewish Bible before Christians rewrote it to fit their agenda, Jesus is not the messiah, and to the thinking Greeks, it is just Voodoo, mumbo jumbo, mysticism and the supernatural.

"But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." That sentence is poorly constructed and difficult to understand.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:" Sounds like god is not interested in calling the most deserving people. Your god is not that bright.

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" Please name one of each example for me.

"And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." Another poorly constructed sentence that is just too incredible for me to comprehend. Thank goodness.

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." How can you read this crap? It only says "as it it written". You apparently believe everything you read.

I read it, think about it, contrast it with what is really going on, and say, "Thank goodness I was taught to think for myself."

[turtle]

Pretty much bluewater you consider what I read foolishness is this not correct especially when it comes to religious material.

Did you know the Bible makes a clear that an unborn child has a soul. God sees a child in His mothers womb at conception. Guess what science for years thought that unborn baby had no life. That is pretty foolish especially with modern technology proving elsewise. I say science is pretty foolish and God's word is accurate. It took scientist years to prove what God's word already said. My My My. Just like today scientist are being to believe that the world was formed by a superior being. Yet man still fails to believe, no doubt people still will not believe when Christ appears one day in the sky.

[bluewater2]

I do not say that the bible is foolishness. Just the idea that it is the word of god. It is a book of parables. These parables are used to make points and teach people things. There is nothing that is important in the new testament that was not already in the Jewish Bible. Of course, you say that all of the material related to Jesus being the messiah is very important. I say that is where the foolishness begins and the walls come up. Period. There are many good books out there that can assist one in learning lifes lessons. I think that The Prophet by Kalil Ghibran is even better.

[turtle]

bluewater with this board closing down in less then thirteen hours all I got to say is I will pray for you. Though we do not agree I will pray and though you think I waste my time, I pray that God will reveal Himself to you in a way that you will understand. And it be such a personal way that you will know without a doubt that Jesus Christ is Lord.

[bluewater2]

The board is not going anywhere. All of the people that I have seen pray for it's closure will certainly not admit that their prayers were not answered. That is the way prayer works. Give it credit when it works, say god works in mysterious ways when it does not.

I have never understood the sentence structure of "Christ is Lord." Shouldn't it be "Christ is THE Lord?" Very strange.

[turtle]

Dear Heavenly Father help bluewater one day to see you as you really are. That you desire a personal relationship with him. In Jesus precious name Amen.

[bluewater2]

I guess I am supposed to say thank you. But actually, I feel insulted that you think there is something wrong with me. Luckily, I know better.

[turtle]

Nothing wrong with you bluewater, God just wants to be your friend that is all. I am sorry you feel insulted but that does nto stop me from praying. Knowing God only enriches you more then you already are. I am sure you are complete in a way without God. But God desire a relationship with you. That is why He sent His Son desiring to bridge the gap between you and Him.

[bluewater2]

I'm sorry, turtle. Mysticism and the supernatural are for you, not for me. But thank you. The larger the gap between me and your view of god the better, I think. I have to always be honest with myself. I think for you to say you KNOW that god wants a relagionship with me is rediculous. First, you cannot know what god wants unless you believe an old book. Second, if god is all you say, he should make himself evident in a way that there is not disputing his presence. His presence is disputed, obviously. Even christians argue over god and god's words. It is quite silly and naive, really, to think you know what god wants. But, if it brings you comfort, I am glad you have it.

[turtle]

See God is foolishness to you bluewater. That is the point of the passage i quoted and then responded to your response. I know it hard for you to grasp a God maybe always will be. But it won't stop me from praying and it won't hurt you if I pray wants you do not believe, now will it??? Though perhaps you think I could do better things with my time. By know this I do care blue even though you can not perhaps understand why. I am sure you care about people on line that you have not meet even though you are not a christian. Most people do care about someone.

Good bye bluewater still praying and believing, and one day you to will see.

[yaakov2]

C'mon Turtle, Bluewater isn't budging. It is time to deliver the threat. What do you know will happen to Bluewater if he doesn’t believe in your god?

[bluewater2]

"See God is foolishness to you bluewater." I don't see god as foolish, like you say, more the belief systems that claim to know what god wants, like yours. Or the belief system that claims to be the only way, like yours, and Islam. Again, god is not foolish, just the belief systems that have tried to contain and describe him. The Jews got it right by spelling god, g_d. They are admitting that god is undescribable.

Thanks for pointing that out, Yaakov. Turtle, what does your version of the bible say will happen to me if I do not believe in your idol?

[turtle]

I won't deliver the threat, why becasue it is not my place to condemn anyone. I have not that authority. I do not go around condemning and never will. You know how God's word ends no doubt so one not just go ahead and condemn yourselves. I do not need to. It is not my place to judge.

[bluewater2]

I think you actually realize how stupid it sounds. Why don't you just admit that instead? It is out and out silly.

[turtle]

John 3:17 KJV
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I see no judgment here do you? Christ purpose was not to condemn. If i condemn I condemn myself bluewater why because I fail as a christian to many time sin my own life. I am human just like you just saved by grace.

[bluewater2]

"I see no judgment here do you? Christ purpose was not to condemn." Yes, I do see judgment. That all have sinned. Sounds pretty judgemental to me. Luckily that is your book saying that, not mine.

[turtle]

So you are perfect. Wow bluewater you never made a mistake in your life. how you do it??? being sarcastic here. We all make mistake blue. Haven' you ever did a oops???

[bluewater2]

What does being perfect or not have to do with it? Of course I am not perfect. I don't know about a belief system that says if you are not perfect you are going to hell. IS that what you are saying?

[turtle]

No it is coming to terms and saying I am not perfect but God is. God is perfect and sinless. He makes no mistakes, but i make a ton.

I believe God is Holy and because of this I need the forgiveness of my sins to be able to come before a Holy God. Christ is our payment for my sins.God paid the price for my sins.

Have you ever had to tell your wife you were sorry or your kids or a friend. How easy was it. That is all my God ask from me and to accept His way of salvation.

[observer]

Turtle, how do you conceive "god?" Is "he" a large man with a white beard living in the clouds; or is "he" an invisible entity living in your soul? Do you have a picture of "god" that you look at when you're worshipping "him," and is this Charlton Heston or the image that Michelangelo painted on the Sistine Chapel? What does "god" look like?

[bluewater2]

"No it is coming to terms and saying I am not perfect but God is. God is perfect and sinless." I guess one needs to believe in god in order for this to have any meaning. And you are saying god exists whether I beleive it or not. There for I say god exists for you and not for me. I am as good as you and have all of the opportunities you do, am just as capable of a full and happy life as you, and therefor have no need for your god. Can you agree with that? And if not, what can you have that I cannot except for life after death? Maybe I can simplify things if you can agree that I have every opportunity and ability you do except life after death. Agreed?

[turtle]

It is something only a believer can understand. Blue I can tell you this there is more contentment with God then without God, more peace with God then without God, more love with God then without God, more exceptance with God then without God. God created everything.

[bluewater2]

"It is something only a believer can understand." Of course, oh arrogant one. Please prove to me that you feel and give more love than I do, that you are more peaceful than I am. I don't see that there is more acceptance with god than without. How accepting can one be that believes that the only way to the father is but through me? Certainly we have established that you believe that god created everything. This of course without one bit of evidence to back it up besides the statement "how else could all of this happened?" That is not proof. You are completely incapable of stating that it is as possible for one who does not believe in god to be as happy as you. I find that a bit condescending.

[turtle]

He accepts all our faults all our passed and no I don't necessarily show more love but God does.

[bluewater2]

Again, "You are completely incapable of stating that it is as possible for one who does not believe in god to be as happy as you. I find that a bit condescending." Right?

[yaakov2]

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[turtle]

I love God more then my life. I am more content with God then without God. You can be happy blue but you never have full happiness until you know God. Even yaakov my jewish friend would probably agree with the statement that with God all things are possible without Him it is just impossible to please God and be fully content.
Blue I am sure you are content in what you understand in truth but with God it is more abundant.

[still_small_voice]

"It is something only a believer can understand."

So you believe first, and then you understand. So you have to believe at first without understanding. This is not very rational. OK, then you believe and I guess understand, but are somehow incapable of getting anyone else to understand until they believe first.

Wow.

Could it be that the belief is the understanding and the "understanding" is simply the belief?

Then you learn more about what you believe as you believe it and call this "understanding".

But when someone really challenges you, you reply, you have to believe first.

I interpret this as:

Yo must be open to indoctrination in order to understand because you must be taught what to believe.

So I say, this I do not understand, but maybe I really do in a sense.

As Thomas Jefferson stated which I think is relevant:

" I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. "

I like that one. Me and Thomas agree on that one.

[bluewater2]

Turtle. You seem like a really sweet person, naieve, but sweet. I am saddened that you are virtually incapable to grant someone with a belief different than yours the ability to feel the love you feel, or give the love you give. I think that you are a textbook case of either brainwashing or the fundamental problem with christianity: the inability to allow that other beliefs are as valid as yours.

Yaakov, good points. The new testament is riddled with thoe types of comments that seem to come from a very self-absorbed person. I am not so sure that those are things that an all loving person would say.

[bluewater2]

There is no doubt in my mind that the new testament is exactly like the book of mormon in that it is the bylaws of a newly founded religious club.

[turtle]

ssv and bluewater,
Knowledge of God comes first. Knowledge through the word or through seeing people of faith that live today. Their life is a testimony to unbeliever. Knowledge and understanding as one begins to accept ther maybe something to believing from what one sees in the life of a christian or through reading the Bible. The way a christian life in general and their relationship to God has testified to my heart sometimes more then just reading the word. I am not talking about sunday morning Christians but those that live it everyday of their life for the Lord. No matter what comes they rely on the Lord and the Lord always sees them thru even if they do not receive exactly how they thought it should be.

But even so the testimony and reading the Bible only gives you a glimsy of what it is fully like to be a believer. Until one experiences one can never fully grasp. It is like riding a bike, unless one learns you can never fully appreciate how one never forgets how to ride a bike. You can not fully appreciate something until you experience it. It is like tasting ice cream for the first time you either love it or you hate it.

[bluewater2]

I am unaware from what I have seen from christians, or believers of any theist belief system, of any advantage or benefit that is gained through that belief. I can see where people who have desparate lives, drug addicts, people with emotional issues that do not have the strength to believe in themselves and lift themselves up, might funtion will in imposed structure based on fear of hell, but I can not think of a single benefit from a belief in the supernatural and mysticism in the lives of those already living productive and loving lives.

I can see the benefit of riding a bike: you get from point a to point b a little bit faster.

[turtle]

Bluewater the Bible is like a handbook. You might not be an abraham, or a doubting thomas,jonah or a Judas. But each knew God in a very special way. Judas iscariot would one day betray Christ because money was more important then his friendship with Jesus. Jonah would run because of fear, yet would eventually come to his senses. Abraham walked by faith though He stumbled and doubting Thomas would come to believe because He saw Christ before him with His nail scarred hands and the side where the spear went in.

The point is what faith brought to each person is different. Judas in this mix had no faith. The others had faith and walked with God yet they all struggled with their faith. Non of these were drunkers or alcoholics best to my knowledge and best to what the Bible tells about their life. What they did have was belief. And because of their belief they seen marvolous things. They were ordinary men that did extraordinary things. Abraham wife sarah had a son in old age, he also saw the promiseland where his kids would live for most of their life. Jonah got swallow by a fish and puked up and then He went to preach when he realized He could not run from God. In fact a whole city repented because of His preaching. And believe it or not this made Jonah mad because destruction did not come to these people. Doubting Thomas saw and walked with Jesus though when He saw Christ after the resurrection He did not doubt. But it took seeing to believe. Paul an upstating jewish citizen blinded by a light would spread the gospel and stop persecuting Christians because of God speaking to Him. The Bible is about faith and relationship to God. When we try to read something else into the Bible we miss the whole point of why the Bible is there. God wants to extra ordinary things in the life of each individual.From defeating the enemy to just handing a stranger a cup of water.

Our life today would not be like the people in the Bible but the faith in God is the same. God moves mountains in our life without bull dozers. God opens door to the impossible.

I was not a drunk or a drug head just a believer. God has enabled me to do something I thought were impossible like start my own internet site. Surviving a wreck technically I should of been dead. And though you might say this is chance it is not. Because I know what I am capable of and what I am not and I know what God is capable of because not only have I read about it in the life of other believers, I have experienced it for myself.

God is not just capable of the impossible, but he does the possible as well in our life.

[bluewater2]

You may give the credit for your successes to whomever you wish, that is your choice. I have done many things in my life that you would attribute to god, I attribute to myself and my family's support. I survived almost dying, not through god, but through my own willpower. Give god credit for what you wish in your life, but an supernatural entity plays no part in mine. Again, you are comfortable with the supernatural. I do not believe it exists, and see no evidence that it does.

I mean, come on, someguy getting swallowed by a fish and puked out?

[still_small_voice]

"But even so the testimony and reading the Bible only gives you a glimsy of what it is fully like to be a believer. Until one experiences one can never fully grasp."

Define "believer"

Also, what about when one changes beliefs or the beliefs change, so one having tasted, say, vanilla opts for a different flavor.

Bluwater-have you ever tried it? Theist belief system, as in a ready made package, I would agree offers little benefit.

A personal belief based on one's intellectual, spiritual, and life expereince might possibly offer a fulfilling experience.

I consider atheism a belief system.

So I would respond, having been an atheist at one time, it offered me no additional benefit to my life. When I decided that I did not agree with it, and moved on, I would say that it would have been a negative thing to cling to it, just because of loyalty to the belief system. So any belief system can be potentially negative if it creates a static state rather than a fluid seeking which is necessary for any growth.

"but I can not think of a single benefit from a belief in the supernatural and mysticism in the lives of those already living productive and loving lives."

I see the belief or opinion as an effect not a cause. The cause is the thinking and reflecting about these things. That, to me, is inherently beneficial whatever belief is the result.

I think, the more one thinks, and experiences, and interprets life... beliefs change. It is simply one part of the human pysche.

Supernatural and mysticism are primitive and do not reflect beliefs based on reason or philosophy. As opposed to, say, socrates and his arguments for the existence of the soul. Two totally different things.

For example... primitive belief in the "god of thunder" as opposed to a concept of a first cause or designer of nature based on the complexity and interconnectedness of all things. Now, if one were to hew down a tree, carve "intelligent designer" on it and bow down, no belief is better than that kind of belief.

I would also say, no belief is better than wacked out fundamentalism.

As far as atheism, even though you accept morality, some athesits see no such thing as morality. Being materialists, believing humans are simply the result of random chance and emotions simply a chemical effect. This can be harmful if the lack of moral values results in immoral acts. Selfishness and hedonism at times results form this, what is the motive for altruism and sacrifice to one who believes in no definite morality or definable "right"?

How can an atheist believe in a conscience? Or any transcendent good? Who is the authority or definer of what is right? The majority of any given society?

Science?

Random chance and genetic mutations?

[bluewater2]

"I consider atheism a belief system." Call it what you might. But a system is usually an interdependent series of events or beliefs that work together to achieve a purpose. I think that atheism is simply the belief that god does not exist. That is hardly a system.

[turtle]

SSV- I denfine believer as a Christian. I understand you believe in a god not necessarily the Christian God. You recognize a supreme being. Actually that is a step of faith in itself.

[still_small_voice]

So a believer in God is not a believer, but a believer in the Christian God is a believer. So Jews are not believers, even though they believe in Jehovah, which, would be Christ to you, because Jesus is God and Jehovah is God.

So a believer in one supreme, moral, creator deity is not a believer, but only a believer in Jesus is a believer...

I don't agree with this definition.

[still_small_voice]

"I think that atheism is simply the belief that god does not exist. That is hardly a system."

I have found there to be a common rational process shared by most adherents to this belief, often involving darwin and certain other principles.

I view atheism as a glass half empty view. Or maybe even a denial of there being a glass altogether.

Regardless, I repect your views and if you base your actions upon some type of moral foundation, I really have no issue with it.

[bluewater2]

"I have found there to be a common rational process shared by most adherents to this belief, often involving darwin and certain other principles." Find what you want. I just don't believe in god. I do not belong to a religion and do not consider atheism a "system" of beliefs.

I believe atheism to be an evolution of the outlook we are born with, which I believe is agnosticism. As we grow and keep an open mind, at least in my experience and the experiences of the atheists I know, we are given the opportunity to grasp the idea of a supernatural and mystical entity, god, or decide that there is no evidence of god, certainly not the type of evidence that would lead me to give up all logic and reason. Many fence sitters, of course, decide to remain agnostic. That is their choice as well.

My moral foundation comes from my own sense of reason and logic. I believe that all people have the ability to self govern. I believe that the bible was written by man when in touch with this ability and gave that credit to the fictionaly character god at a time when many more things were indescribable and the reason for things were unknown.

I don't deny any glass and don't see that glass analogy as being pertinent to this discussion.

I guarantee you that my attitude about life is one of the glass being full.

[jeff_franklin]

Atheism is a set of beliefs. It is a religion. Just atheist propaganda to state otherwise.

Atheism is poison for the human soul.

Atheism is that the glass is empty.

No life after death of the human body is the ultimate in pessimism.

You drank of the poison now you are dying. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

We have drank of the waters of life and we will live forever! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bluewater2]

Atheism is merely the belief that there is no god. If that is how you define a religion or system of beliefs, that is on you.

[yaakov2]

Turtle

<font color="0000ff">The point is what faith brought to each person is different.</font>

Yes, each person is different. You seem unable to realize that some people that disbelieve in G-d are more ethical and moral than some people that do believe in G-d. My G-d tells me that He would rather each person be ethical, moral, charitable, and lovers of justice than He would have people believe in Him. I am secure in my beliefs. In my opinion, you seem insecure in yours. It seems to me that you must have people agree with your beliefs to be secure in them yourself. I've seen many Christians state that since one billion people are Christians, then their beliefs must be right and everyone must join them.

<font color="0000ff">I am not talking about sunday morning Christians but those that live it everyday of their life for the Lord.</font>

However, the same Christians that play the numbers game, always seek to exclude other Christians. So now you've got the problem that you don't want someone just to believe in your deity, but they must believe it exactly as you do.

<font color="0000ff">God wants to extra ordinary things in the life of each individual.</font>

I'd agree with this, but belief in G-d is not required to achieve this. Just look at Noah, for example. He wasn't Jewish, but he was tapped for doing extra-ordinary things because he was righteous.

[jeff_franklin]

There is no "merely" to the belief system of atheism.

Atheism is an utter refutation of all of the common basic beliefs and laws of morality of all other religions of the world. The recognition of good versus evil.

Your constant denial of ever doing anything wrong is an insult to the intelligence of every reader of factnet. A self delusion you are deep into.

By proclaiming without proof there is no God you are proclaiming that you are a god! That you are the highest form of intelligence in the universe. Hogwash!

Atheism is just a revealed jealousy of God, the Supreme intelligence and Creator of the universe. Egotistical, ungrateful jealousy!

[bluewater2]

I have never denied ever doing anything wrong. Why do you continue to say that people have said things that they have not. I have said I do not believe in the idea that mistakes are sins, but never that I have not made mistakes. You are such a silly boy, franklin.

What do I have to be jealous of a non existant god of?

Franklin, you can continue to believe in the supernatural if you want. It's cool, now calm down and go play with your sparklers.

[jeff_franklin]

Your rhetoric just further exemplifies how ludicrous your indoctrination in atheist dogma is.

You speak of mistakes? No remorse? I guess the mistakes you speak of were only that you got caught. That's sociopathic.

[bluewater2]

I experience remorse for about as long as it takes for me to appologize to the one I have wronged. I don't see anyone else to appologize to besides that person.