Talent and self glorification justified [Archive]

giulia

07-07-2007, 11:48 PM

Seems to be the new "Christian" craze,that when one has extraordinary abilities it is "favour" of God.

Looks would easily fit into that category as well, shame as God's purpose as creator is being criticized and talents as the world sees them are being encouraged by the church, glorifying the self and saying it is "sanctified" because it is being used for God's purpose.

I see this as a clever way to use God for the self's purpose and I think it is a subtle deception straight from the pit of hell, formulated by the devil himself.

Don't really want a fight but I guess I am picking one, anyone care for a challenge, please use scripture or biblical principle for back up as my purpose is the kingdom of God through Jesus Christ, no other way but the narrow way.

My point is that self is being encouraged rather than being led to death through the cross.

(Message edited by Giulia on July 07, 2007)

(Message edited by Giulia on July 07, 2007)

rachelengland

07-08-2007, 12:19 AM

Guila, I am not sure I understand where you are coming from and I do not use scripture to prove my points. But I will share my thoughts with you.

Christians like yourself live in this world and it is hard not to be influenced by the media and the culture of the day.

The idea of beauty is ever changing- one moment it is great to be voluptuous, the next minute a waif..tan is in ..white skin is in..etc etc..
no one is exempt.

Christians often do a lot of mimicking of the things they criticize the most. Ever gone into a Family Christian Bookstore? If you look in the music section there will be a chart that has the names of secular artists and next to it a christian artist who is similar in style...In saying that my point is-

Christians too have learned that they must keep up with the times..if they want more people in their churches and more people to come to their concert events..then looks sell. R

giulia

07-08-2007, 05:43 AM

Dear Rachelengland,

I think true repentance is avoided this day and age, people are not transformed but their old selves, instead, are patched up, to resemble a Christian. They are not encouraged to get a clean robe, instead to patch up their old robe and you cannot put new wine into old wineskins, they will burst, in other words the Spirit of God cannot live in a human who is unrepentant and who has not experienced the transforming power of Jesus Christ.

An "acting" Christian will not harm the body of Christ, but will not make it into heaven.

If the self remains uncrucified the work of God has no room to operate, instead the self learns to adapt to a lie of outer transformation, when the inside is still dirty.

The act it puts on puffs itself up in her/him and the self is thus encouraged to seek more praise under the pretense of glorifying God.

Don't taste or touch principles are used to conform to rituals and look "clean" and even works of a Christian (what more a self-glorifying work than that of a Christian's good works) and it's noble cause.

These days I often hear of these "Christian" talent scouts, going out and as they see "talent" as the world would see it (they call it favour of God, but nothing could be further than the truth).

This is not true and fact is God looks upon the heart, not the flesh, flesh will not inherit the kingdom, neither will all the tricks it can do.

"Church without blemish or wrinkle" does not mean we should all go out and get facelifts (it's getting that way).

People who get old should not be ignored and treated less than, but instead they should be our instructors.

I have not been to a Christian bookstore lately because I can't tell the difference, frankly, between the Christian writing and secular stuff, in fact some of the secular stuff is more enlightening, these days.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

Talents, or what our abilities are nothing to do with what talents in the bible are about. Saving or making more money is not what Jesus meant in the parable of the talents.

The whole faith issue is totally ignored, instead it is who can put on the best act of singing and acting and doing good works.

That is a lie, yet it is being sold in the church. I am glad my father did not want me for what I can or cannot do,or I would've been sold to the nearest Arab in a flash.

Not about what we can and cannot do, but about our hearts, whether we have buried our self in baptism (firstly) then how we translate our faith onto others and whether we do it selflessly is what ultimately counts.

Some of the great reformers of the world were what we would term to be "ugly" and even Moses had a speech impediment, he was not encouraged to keep up or sanctify the great job he did with killing that Egyptian, instead he was brought to his knees, or to the dust (for those who may think going to the knees may not be manly).

His heart was looked on, and not his killing skills, the fact that he went to an Israelites defense over the side of the Egyptian (who had more power), was for his praise from God, not the fact that he killed.

In todays terms, this is what is being encouraged, not the killing, but the act is being praised over and above the intention of the heart.

The eyes, the flesh and the pride is being encouraged, under the pretense of being a messenger of God.

(Message edited by Giulia on July 08, 2007)

giulia

07-08-2007, 06:58 AM

promises of love and adoration by the nations of the world all because of your "talent", must I go on???

I once slashed my face because I hated that self adoration, I still do!!!!!

The church doesn't, the church is now trying to resurrect that old person and even to sanctify her works as long as her self is not touched, "spare the shame of the cross by all means, just give me the glory, by all means" by the Devil.

giulia

07-08-2007, 02:25 PM

Can't believe no one wants to bite, I see many people these days following these principles, yet no one wants to debate with me???????

bluewater2

07-08-2007, 03:04 PM

Sounds like you only want an xtian perspective on this. I doubt you will find many xtians who disagree with you.

david_munson

07-08-2007, 03:29 PM

The church has fallen away from it's birth.
It now operates as the world does.
Even after having been told not to.

Works that are a part of a system are of no value to God.
Works that come from a motivation of Love count for good.

Beauty is in the eyes of the one who percieves it and it has nothing to do with the way a person looks.

The most beautiful thing to behold is the faith of one who has just placed their trust in Christ and is allowing Him to change them inside.

A new creation in Christ.

}

rachelengland

07-08-2007, 03:49 PM

Christians are attracted to physical beauty..Just like anyone else.

giulia

07-08-2007, 11:21 PM

"Christians are attracted to physical beauty..Just like anyone else."

I am attracted to Godliness, more than beauty. Some of the great reformers of all time were not beautiful, but they were movers and shakers who revolutionised the world.

Look at mother Teresa, she never had a facelift, but she was beautiful because her heart was, even when she was hunched over and withered.

Christians should have control over the lust of the eyes, not encourage it.

grace2u

07-08-2007, 11:30 PM

This is true beauty - -

A woman who was hit with a frozen turkey when a teenager threw it into her windshield window. The turkey bent the steering wheel and broke every bone in her face. When the case went to trial the teenager that threw the turkey got off with a ridiculously light fine and public service, etc. But do you know who initiated the plea bargaining that resulted in his sentence? It was the woman who was harmed.

As the sentencing ended and the teenager in tears went over to the woman and she comforted him - she said something like she wanted him to have the best life that he could.

Now that is the grace and mercy. Obviously, you cannot do this with repeat offenders but the teenager was stupid (I don't mean this offensively) and young.

I recently failed to extend grace and mercy to another. Every which way I saw it they were wrong so in a way I lifted my hand to get the judgment that seemed to be deserved. Funny thing is that God would not let me do this . . . he sent the paperwork that I had started out to my credit card company back as undeliverable.

I had not exercised true grace and mercy and that my friend is real beauty and many, many, times goes by unnoticed.

rachelengland

07-08-2007, 11:43 PM

Gulia, I think you are too hard on people...Just because someone is a beauty does not mean they can not do great things for our world...

Beauty will only take you so far..everyone knows that-you have to have substance to be sustaining in any profession.R

(Message edited by rachelengland on July 08, 2007)

jeff_franklin

07-09-2007, 01:02 AM

You are a shining example Rachel. Beautiful and talented!

bluewater2

07-09-2007, 01:55 AM

Now those are real cultfighting words, Spanklin.

rachelengland

07-09-2007, 02:18 AM

Hey BW..simmer down...just because he has some issues in the politics and religion area- doesn't mean he can't have good taste in womenhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Franklin, I'll pay up later(LOL)

giulia

07-09-2007, 02:51 AM

"Gulia, I think you are too hard on people...Just because someone is a beauty does not mean they can not do great things for our world...

Beauty will only take you so far..everyone knows that-you have to have substance to be sustaining in any profession.R"

Talking salvation here, not doing great things (and doing great things is a result of not caring about man above God). Great faith and favour is not whether you are good at something, but the church has turned the talents in the bible to mean talents that we can do.

Many in the church talk about talents and the talent is being focused on when that is a thing of the flesh, the heart is what God looks at, and it is through the heart we get salvation.

These days pastors don't even do alter calls, people are allowed to raise their hand when all heads are bowed so no one gets embarrassed.

This is a shame job, God will be ashamed of us when we are ashamed of Him, true repentance is done with your heart, fearless of man, but only fearing God.

The church is hardly recognisable by God and angels, because it is so in the flesh.

still_small_voice

07-09-2007, 03:00 AM

What a strange, strange thread.

rachelengland

07-09-2007, 03:06 AM

yep..that is the joy of being a member of factnet..strange..strange threads.R

still_small_voice

07-09-2007, 03:40 AM

I...think I am... addicted to FACTnet posting. Maybe I should start a twelve step FACTnetaddicts program thread. Wait a sec... hmmmm no, that would not really work would it.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

grace2u

07-09-2007, 03:40 AM

I think what giulia may be trying to say is that physical beauty fades generally unless maintained by surgery, etc.

What beauty stays in your memory the longest? My guess even for those who are Christian and many who are moral it is those who have given of themselves or even given up things so that others could have.

You can be beautiful physically and beautiful inside.

You can be beautiful physically and ugly inside.

You can be ugly physically ugly and ugly inside.

Pro 31:30 Favor is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

Wesley states:

Pro 31:30 - Favour - Comeliness, which commonly gives women favour with those who behold them. Deceitful - It gives a false representation of the person, being often a cover to a deformed soul; it does not give a man that satisfaction, which at first he promised to himself from it; and it is soon lost, not only by death, but by many diseases and contingencies.

I believe that God speaks to mankind in themes. I don't find this thread strange at all. All week I have heard God speaking about the world as a masquerade (through the words of others that have truth in them, through music, through radio shows, etc.) Note: It gives a false representation of the person, being often a cover to a deformed soul.

Masquerade!
Paper faces on parade . . .
Masquerade!
Hide your face,
so the world will
never find you!

Funny - the above is not mine but I just wrote a poem about a masquerade ball.

(Message edited by Grace2u on July 08, 2007)

still_small_voice

07-09-2007, 03:43 AM

I think the gist of her first and followup posts is that the modern church world is worldly and compromised.

jeff_franklin

07-09-2007, 03:55 AM

The only modern churches I find to be worldly and compromised are the ones we see listed here as cults.

Look at all of the worldliness and compromising of the word in the Word of Faith churches. Materialism to the max! Salvation by faith alone to Judaic legalism and faith in faith. "Ye are Gods"! Look at all of the glitz and glamour of some of these tv preachers. Name it claim it! Robert Tilton! Worldliness. Perversion of God's word!

The "Church" is the Holy Spirit and all who the Holy Spirit dwells within. Does the Holy Spirit dwell within a tv preacher wearing a 10,000 dollar suit?

It is no more possible for one of these rich so called Ministers to enter the Kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

Scamming people out of their money is not a talent or a gift. It is evil.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:00 AM

I think the gist of her first and followup posts is that the modern church world is worldly and compromised.

Yes - apply that further and who makes up the church? Ultimately, individuals. It is our actions that show true grace - not physical fading favour.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:05 AM

Luk 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:08 AM

Sorry Franklin - I'm not meaning to disagree with you but feel I need to state a quote by Robertson's Word Pictures:

Paradoxical, but true. Take your stand “beside” (para) God and the impossible becomes possible. Clearly then Jesus meant the humanly impossible by the parabolic proverb about the camel going through the needle’s eye. God can break the grip of gold on a man’s life, but even Jesus failed with this young ruler.

bluewater2

07-09-2007, 04:12 AM

You don't have to be a Christian to know that what is on the inside is more important than what is on the outside. At least non-christians who don't understand that aren't hypocrites on top of being selfish and self centered.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:14 AM

Jesus of course allowed for the rich man's free will.

But if the man was willing to follow him - even if he was on TV and had problems breaking away from his riches through the soil that Jesus could plant his word and truth in - eventually would allow God to break the grip of gold on the man's life.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:17 AM

Bluewater - that's exactly why I said "My guess even for those who are Christian and many who are moral it is those who have given of themselves or even given up things so that others could have".

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:25 AM

Scamming people out of their money is not a talent or a gift. It is evil.

True, true and we have had this discussion before. I would like to add a verse to our attention regarding this.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

That's why my story about the woman who was hit in the face with the turkey and had to have her whole face reconstructed is very applicable to the topic.

And perhaps why God would not let me avenge myself with the individual that I discussed above. Like Abimelech in his dream - God made sure I knew not to raise my hand against another.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:32 AM

No one says anyone has to keep supporting anyone that has scammed people out of money. But just drop it and leave it in God's hand.

I see a few things can happen - some may see the example and see God and it can be a witness to them (yes even those who are in authority may be blind) and this provides an opportunity for the gospel.

Another thing is that it can be just a misunderstanding or there are other legitimate issues.

The final is that your actions heap coals of fire on their head.

You can't really lose by letting God deal with it.

still_small_voice

07-09-2007, 04:34 AM

"Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

That is all fine and good, but for the record, if I am threatened or my loved ones, or even citizen joe anonymous, I am going to respond with force on force.

And defend myself. I have a glock dedicated for that very purpose.

So maybe I am falling short of those passages there.

Or maybe I interpret my response as "good" and by the 9mm hope to overcome?

What I am saying is, do you feel those passages apply to self defense as well grace?

The pacifists think they are all encompassing and without exception.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:40 AM

I think the prior verses give us a clue into this:

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Whatever our actions - they should not be evil.

If a person is murdered - there will be a trial - the state will make sure that there will be one. Still you should not respond with evil. If at all possible live peaceably with all men. To me this says that you may have to kill someone in self defense but this should not be done in evil but because peace no longer is possible.

In otherwords, if they keep attacking you and turning your cheek would put you into a situation in which you could no longer live in peace - you should still forgive them but you can take action.

I think anyway . . . at the moment.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:44 AM

My guess is that God will really be looking at the motive in your heart in such situations.

Are you fed up and just want revenge? Or can you not possibly live at peace if action is not taken and furthermore, can mankind leave at peace - i.e. mass murderer, etc.?

grace2u

07-09-2007, 04:49 AM

Question is "marketing" talents, etc. self-glorification?

I recently read something tht would indicate that many marketing practices are basically a form of witchcraft (or manipulation)?

http://www.geocities.com/prophet_realm/witchcraft.html

What say you?

still_small_voice

07-09-2007, 04:50 AM

Yeah, debating the issue with pacifists gave me a headache. My conscience allows me to defend myself. There is no ill will intended. Simply the right to continue to exist in this world.

Criminals often exercise their God given freewill to harm others. They should not be surprised when they reap what they sow.

A common interpretation of the verses you cited is that they apply to the faith only. For example, when a person is putting someone to death for being a Christian only, no resistance is pretty clearly what the bible presents. There is evidence for this belief in all the martyrs that there were.

But I think it odd to teach absolute non-resistance.

still_small_voice

07-09-2007, 04:53 AM

"My guess is that God will really be looking at the motive in your heart in such situations."

Not really complicated. Criminal pulls gun and points it, if I am able, I pull gun and pull trigger.

Maybe this subject belongs on glock talk. Sorry, I will return this thread to the previous owner.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 05:01 AM

I understand and I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing. I just don't see self defense as evil as much as I see it as unfortunate.

Still only less life threatening situations, if you can live at peace, I believe it is best to show mercy with others because you never know when you will need mercy.

I know I'm thankful in my life when other Christians have forgiven and shown mercy. And such instances seem to have a gifting effect. You want to pass it on. And if you don't you are like the debtor that was forgiven that would not forgive and then you are really not in a good place. I'm not saying that it is easy. But that's what is appropriate.

I too will back away a bit to not take over the thread.

bluewater2

07-09-2007, 05:17 AM

giulia

07-09-2007, 06:39 AM

"Yes - apply that further and who makes up the church? Ultimately, individuals. It is our actions that show true grace - not physical fading favour."

True, the bulk of the church does not teach this."Talents" are glorified even over and above salvation. The way I have heard it lately is that talent=anointing.

This is so far from the truth it is not funny, actually tragic, how the outward gift is glorified and gives the self free reign. The self is the centre rather than Christ.

As far as self defense is concerned, that is a whole new thread. I study MMA and I quite enjoy and feel justified in using my skills on people who like to disturb the peace.

Jesus Christ is coming back with His Saints to wage war, and I want to be riding with Him, with my armour on, kicking gluts all the way!

That is a whole different topic.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 09:14 AM

I know I'm thankful in my life when other Christians have forgiven and shown mercy. Is it less rewarding when non-christians have forgiven and shown mercy? Just curious. It's just that while I prowel these threads I keep getting the impression that only Christians are compassionate and have their priorities straight. Atheists can be kind and loving too!!!

No I agree that I would be just as thankful. Still the topic of this thread relates to the church bluewater. I'm just on topic. Trying to think about you guys when I can but really thinking on the topic more.

Can you show me some mercy and grace? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

yaakov2

07-09-2007, 01:20 PM

grace2u

07-09-2007, 11:54 PM

Yes but she is not the only one. Origen did something similar - actually worse since he castrated himself.

I believe they both had a reason and it was a "misunderstanding" of some scriptures in the Bible. Origen was convinced that much of the Bible, particularly the Song of Solomon should be taken metaphorically. (I would agree.) It is ironic that he would take the following verses literally:

Mar 9:42-50 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. (43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (49) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. (50) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Still, who in the world would doubt his (their) sincerity. What is needed is to just demonstrate how to correctly interpret the passage.

I think the metaphor is that sin must die.

And we should always remember:

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

grace2u

07-09-2007, 11:59 PM

Ah Bingo - found it!

Please read:

Please Read (http://www.buy.com/prod/captured-by-grace-you-re-never-beyond-the-reach-of-a-loving-god/q/loc/106/31308749.html#prodInfoSec)

Then select read a chapter.

(Message edited by Grace2u on July 09, 2007)

giulia

07-10-2007, 12:54 AM

What I get out of Giulia’s message is that the beauty on the inside is more important than the beauty on the outside. Also, that people tend to over-value external beauty. I agree with all of that.

What disturbed me about Giulia’s post is when she said:
"I once slashed my face because I hated that self adoration, I still do!!!!!

Someone that would slash their own face really needs some help…and quickly. To injure yourself because of what other people believe isn’t rational. To injure yourself for almost any reason isn’t rational."

I once also tied someone up and put a gun to his head for all his money. That was before I was saved.

My face is healed, miraculously, hope the man stopped shaking too, he was selling porn and I didn't like feeling exploited, besides it was Christmas and I needed presents.

My point is that for someone to love me just because of what I am able to or not able to do, or what I look like is so shallow.

I like nice things, I like to nice, but to have those things as priorities when people in the world are dying is not Godly.

It is a misrepresentation to say that one has God's favour when all they did is sing well, hey they may earn a truck full of money as well though it but that is not God's favour.

God's favour is when the Spirit of God flows through you in a Holy atmosphere and supernatural Presence, that is where I long to be always, everything else is secondary, I could happily live in a tent with God's Glory, what a palace that will be.

The focus of the church is not only on monetary blessing as an sign of favour, but blessing of the flesh as well, when truthfully the flesh is at enmity with the Spirit and will not inherit eternal life.

Much of the church has just become whitewashed, not concerned with the heart but the flesh, this is my lamentation.

When people are good at something, always, always there will be someone better, that is a guarantee.

Also it is not the action that brings God's favour, but the heart behind it, if the heart behind it just seeks self adoration in the guise of bringing glory to God, that is a vast misrepresentation.

The focus is all wrong, works without faith is dead, just as faith without works is dead.

rachelengland

07-10-2007, 01:20 AM

"once also tied someone up and put a gun to his head for all his money. That was before I was saved.

My face is healed, miraculously, hope the man stopped shaking too, he was selling porn and I didn't like feeling exploited, besides it was Christmas and I needed presents". Guila

WOW..that is quite a story... You know many times when people focus so heavily on a topic and it bothers them to NO end..it is they who have the problem..dep down inside they are struggling with the issue at hand and they are pointing the finger everywhere but back at themselves!

I suggest you quit worrying about changing everyone else and what state the church is in-and start with yourself.

Maybe if you go into churches and speak with love and peace you can change some lives and people who never thought they were worth much ..could find purpose behind your words.

giulia

07-10-2007, 04:05 AM

I don't believe I am doing that, I understand what you are saying though. I don't think it is always that way.

Like if one preaches against sin, it is not because they are heavily in sin, but because they have found a way out and want to share it.

I am fighting the deception which I know, as a human I am prone to.

"Maybe if you go into churches and speak with love and peace you can change some lives and people who never thought they were worth much ..could find purpose behind your words."

It is the hardest to get the ones in the church who are religious.

I do faith stuff, so I am not just blowing air here, my actions follow what I believe. Sometimes I can do more. I know.

I am part of the Body of Christ, I am worried about the state of the church as it is part of me, my invisible family.

I have a burden for that. It is a place I was even excommunicated from at one stage, and where I am supposed to look up to, but it is corrupt, so how can I, who do I look up to when it is all of the flesh? Who do I plug in with as we are meant to fellowship with one another???

I have a church I frequent, it is very much about social justice and active participation in the community, I still feel like a stranger.

Perhaps I will always feel like a stranger till I get back to heaven, where I really belong.

This world annoys me.

jeff_franklin

07-10-2007, 11:34 AM

"where I am supposed to look up to, but it is corrupt, so how can I, who do I look up to when it is all of the flesh? Who do I plug in with as we are meant to fellowship with one another???"

No! You are never supposed to look up to a church or anyone in a church.

Only to God.

There is your problem.

Look right on past failing human beings. There is NO human worth looking up to. None!

The minute you look up to a human you take your eyes of God. Then what are you looking up to? satan!

For your information: NEWSFLASH! Humans are corrupt!

Does that surprise you? It shouldn't. The Bible tells us so.

We do NOT have to fellowship with one another. That has nothing to do with salvation!

Adam and Eve went to hell because they had no one to fellowship with? Adam and Eve went to hell because they had no poofy haired preacher man to submit to his authority? Hogwash!

This idea of fellowship is just one more form of phony legalism. Not required for salvation.

John 3:16 does not read:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and diligently partakes in fellowship with others should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Don't worry about it. If you can not find a church your spirit is comfortable with then don't go to any church. You won't go to hell because of your making that wise choice.

Relax. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies, Love yourself. Love God foremost.

But never, never look up to any human!

I don't care if he has poofy hair, a flashy smile and sells millions of cds.

He's just as corrupt as anyone.

Diminish humans in your eyes. Elevate God in your eyes.

You can't see God for all of the humans. Refocus your eyes.

grace2u

07-10-2007, 12:22 PM

If you look at the verses about fellowship in the Bible you will find a theme. It is always "in Christ".

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So if you want fellowship, Rachel has a point - do what you can to walk in light.

I recently told a relative of mine that if they were looking for people to live up to their expectations they were going to live a very miserable life cause they never would meet their expectations (and this advise I would give to a certain "firm" poster on another thread).

But I totally understand the dilemma. I believe that there is such an inherent need to have this fellowship. I think God made us this way first so we will desire Him and it will ultimately bring us to Him still, while on this earth - for most of us there is a need for human fellowship. So you have to have charity and forgive others regardless. If you don't you will be the one miserable inside.

And I for one am not going to deny the need for human fellowship. Sometimes it may seem that this need put's others before Christ but it does not. Acknowledging the need is just acknowledging it. But still the answer is the same - walk in the light.

grace2u

07-10-2007, 12:26 PM

I cried when I read the story that I posted in the link above. Don't know if anyone else read it but ultimately what an example of walking in the light and showing that one can extend a hand of love to another even when another has harmed you.

(Message edited by Grace2u on July 10, 2007)

giulia

07-10-2007, 09:29 PM

Grace are you talking about the link to the book you posted or the other article you posted or the story of the man who did the chop on his penis?

The bible says we should not forsake the fellowship of the brothers and sisters.

I do look to Christ as my head. I still long to have an elder brother or sister whose example i can follow and whom I can go to for advice, or even just to bounce my ideas off.

If he has poofy hair I will say, you can be sure of that, even if it is a she I will be okay with that, long as he/she is an example of Christ.

The hair is quite superficial, although superficial things are great things to point out especially if the person has pride.lol!

The bible also says "where two or three are gathered, there I am in the mist of them", when I have been in the room with just one other person who is on fire, everything goes dim as the light of Jesus gets brighter, I love that, being in the light and so much so that I can no longer see the material around me because it is so bright.

I love it when I talk to someone who loves God and their eyes shine and everything goes bright and the conversation is obviously lit up with Jesus Himself in the midst of us, I love that!!!

Someone to have my back and tell me to pull my head in when I get a bit extreme as well.

turtle

07-10-2007, 11:11 PM

Take a look at the story of the burning bush. God wanted to put words in moses mouth but he was still relying on himself. This is in resposne to the first post. There is a difference in God given ability and man's ability. Though God created us he also gave us each ability to do things, but at the saem time God wants to use His super natural ability in our lives.

This was moses failure and why he did not get to go into the promiseland. Moses hit the rock in his ability instead of relying on God he had gotten a bad case of His ability and not God's ability.

Though God created we often fail to rely on God to do the work in our life.

Something we do is total self attitude and other things are done as we yield ot God.

grace2u

07-10-2007, 11:42 PM

Ah I was talking about the chapter in the book. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

turtle

07-11-2007, 12:51 AM

grace I do not mean to derail the thread but thank you for posting this message.

http://www.geocities.com/prophet_realm/witchcraft.html

giulia

07-11-2007, 02:44 AM

You know much of the church today takes on this appearance, to me, having a false spiritual authority.

Taking the outcome of some who have had spiritual authority and copying that to make a counterfeit and saying it is the favour of God, a clever trick of the devil and an old trick of his as well.

Turtle Moses couldn't even speak properly, yet God told him he was gonna be a spokesperson to the tribes, God saw his heart was willing and courageous, and yes in the end he gave in to the murmurings of the people over the voice of God.

You know that is a tough call these days to stay in God wholly, when there is so much refined deception in the church and not much brother and sisterhood.

I don't blame Moses at all, I think it would've been very hard for him.

You know with God's grace we can do it, when we stay in Jesus and Him in us, we can overcome that demand and need of acceptance to man. We are all prone to it and it is the very spirit which makes up counterfeits to get praise from man instead of God.

It is subtle and so annoying because it disguises itself as God.

turtle

07-11-2007, 02:52 AM

Yes I do think we can understand the moses humanity in this but it made God angry. I think it is hard to stay in the will of God and be obedient, But God is often patient with us and understand our inadequacy. I agree there are ministers today that say It is God's will and it is man's will and not God's. It is even getting hard to tell the counterfeit. When God began to move in my life, I never read so much scripture and I wonder why I needed so much at the time. I really needed God's word in me to come against fakery. To know in my heart there was a difference. I am still working through some of it.

still_small_voice

07-11-2007, 03:14 AM

"Humans are corrupt!"

Even after salvation? The new birth and regeneration? Was Paul corrupt? Or John? Or only some humans?

Be ye HOLY for I am HOLY" -1 Peter 1:16

A person is expected to be holy and corrupt at the same time? How is this possible?

Maybe you could define what kind of corruption we are talking about here.

"We do NOT have to fellowship with one another. That has nothing to do with salvation!"

Acts 2:42 They continued steadfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and prayer.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Let's see.... if you walk in the light you have fellowship.

So not having fellowship is not walking in the light? I mean, it seems pretty clear.

It would also seem that fellowship was placed at a level with the Lord's supper by the early disciples. That is pretty important.

Sorry grace, sometimes I can't resist. If nothing else, my challenging you will cause you to dig deeper, if I ever manage to present a clear challenge that is considered by you.

turtle

07-11-2007, 04:12 AM

SSV I know you were talking to grace but ready
I Corinthians chapter 7-8.

Actually these are two of my favorite chapters. We are called to be holy, but we are still are human.

grace2u

07-11-2007, 12:18 PM

I'm not sure if he is talking to me or Franklin because the quotes are Franklins.

grace2u

07-11-2007, 12:46 PM

However, about the comment made to me in what seems to be a rebuttal or discussion with or to Frankin:

It's not that you haven't brought challenges, it's just that these challanges can be reconciled. By the way - itunes offers some University courses for free including those on philosophy (for those of us who don't need a lower level degree and don't want to pay for another one) so don't think I'm a complete dunce. I just believe that what the Bible text covers (note I didn't say religion) covers the same ground as philosophy (as well as psychology).

My problem is not being challenged to dig deeper as much as it is the management of my energy and the number of hours in the day.

But note - I am the steward of my energy - Not anyone else and prayfully, I will determine where to put my energy even when so challenged.

(Message edited by Grace2u on July 11, 2007)

giulia

07-11-2007, 12:54 PM

I believe one can be Holy when totally submitted to Christ.

In fact I believe we were made Holy at the new birth, the sin is in the flesh and until it is fully submitted we are in sin, but fully submitted to the Spirit of His grace and wholly in the graceful waters of His love I believe we are Holy.

That is a whole other discussion and scripture.I also think not everyone achieves this, few of the few, even whilst remaining humble walk in total Holiness.

saygoodnightgracie

07-11-2007, 02:03 PM

"the story of the man who did the chop on his penis?"

This, perhaps, should not fall in the category of "self-glorification", nor philosophy or psychology as grace suggested - maybe it would be more at home on a jujitsu website... or here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOeC_aZ_4H8

still_small_voice

07-11-2007, 06:16 PM

"I'm not sure if he is talking to me or Franklin because the quotes are Franklins."

Wow, you are right, I need glasses. I must have looked at your name underneath. Ooops, seems like I can't escape a debate with Franklin even if I try to. Sorry.

still_small_voice

07-11-2007, 06:20 PM

"That is a whole other discussion and scripture."

At the heart of the matter is the division between Arminianism and Augustine/Calvinism. They both use the same bible as far as I know. They come up with opposite and contradictory conclusions and doctrines.

(Message edited by still_small_voice on July 11, 2007)

giulia

07-11-2007, 11:52 PM

I think they are both right, just can't see it. There is truth in being chosen and God doing the choosing and there is also truth in submitting your free will and choosing.

Anyway it's the church I am talking about and I either go to a church and hear this loud music (through which God cannot possibly speak, at least not to me), or I go to a church where there is this delusional spirit of false prophecy where people are falling all over each other like some made up child's game; or a church where there is a bunch of singers on a platform and there is a notion that they are supposed to lead the people to worship but in reality they are so above the people and there is a distinct feeling of you and us and the people just being entertained; or another church is right into social justice and is great in the works dept, but there is not Spirit of life, it is not a joyous occasion when I hear them singing and they don't dance around either, it's missing life.

So you see, I guess me being plugged into any of these is a good thing because I shouldn't be an island, although I often feel like one, perhaps my ideals are too high, but they do correspond with the standards in the bible.

Increasingly I hear TV evangelists talking about "talent" and they mean the abilities I or you have and a whole doctrine is constructed around those and it ends up being so carnal because it just speaks of self glorification, just as the world does only keep the boobs bum and belly covered and keep the swear words out, no difference.

I would rather hear a whole bunch of swear words from people who are obvious sinners, that is more real and less deceptive and so, for me, closer to being clean. If that makes any sense.

giulia

07-12-2007, 12:04 AM

saygoodnightgracie that video is wild! Wow, pretty cool to combine flexibility and strength of gym and martial arts, although I see no connection whatsoever to the penis chop, am I missing something?

giulia

07-12-2007, 01:31 AM

I am very vulnerable to that spirit of self-glorification myself and I desire and need the infrastructure of the church to encourage me to death each day so I can live in His life and Holiness.

Not to seek it because I know it is an easy way to acceptance by my brothers and sisters, that is encouragement to carnality, something I can do on my own quite nicely (left to my own resources).

Now I am not denying my own responsibility for submitting my will to self control in Christ, just saying that encouragement and reminders of full love for Christ and through His death, is so much sweeter.

To eat of His flesh in Spirit and drink of His blood in Spirit is much a higher purpose that just ability in self. No comparison.

giulia

07-12-2007, 01:41 AM

grace2u

07-12-2007, 03:09 AM

That's ok SSV - this is my day for people to put words in my mouth. I know you just made an error. Someone else has said that I posted that God told me to leave my husband. Hopefully, this is just an error too. #1. God never told me to do this. #2. I never said that God told me to do this. #3. I would have to assume that it wasn't God had I heard this and this is where it is sooooo important that we have the written word of God. That way we can test the spirits. We have the standard of God's word to try things against and if we find that we are off we can course correct and get back on track. And why this word needs to be inerrant inspite of man.

grace2u

07-12-2007, 03:36 AM

I am very vulnerable to that spirit of self-glorification myself and I desire and need the infrastructure of the church to encourage me to death each day so I can live in His life and Holiness.

I actually think I suffer from a bit of the opposite - spirit of low glorification (although sometimes this can express itself in a manner that looks like glorification when others try to put me down as a self defense mechanism). I tried to push on God what I needed. But I keep hearing through other people - all you need is me. (And then Franklin's constant - get your eyes off of man.) Which I didn't think I was doing. I just wanted man to "help" me in my spiritual walk - not take God's place. But I guess everyday God is using mankind to do this - just not how I would have "ordered" it to be delivered.

still_small_voice

07-12-2007, 04:47 AM

"That way we can test the spirits."

1 John 4:1 Beloved, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:2 The test by which you may recognize the Spirit of God is that every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come as man is from God,

Mark 3:11 The unclean spirits, whenever they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, "You are the Son of God!"

Mark 5:2-7
And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, Who ... cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?

Well, that clears things up.

grace2u

07-12-2007, 04:57 AM

You might want to take a look at the previous chapter http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

and then

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome

I thought you said that you at least looked as the whole book as a whole unit?

grace2u

07-12-2007, 05:00 AM

And how did Jesus respond to the ultimate "evil" spirit - Satan?

It is written . . .

It is written . . .

It is written . . .

giulia

07-12-2007, 05:09 AM

"I actually think I suffer from a bit of the opposite - spirit of low glorification "

depends what you want, you want to esteem God or esteem self.

Pride even comes in the form of false humility, putting the self down for attention.

grace2u

07-12-2007, 05:12 AM

You realize that saying:

"You are the Son of God!"

is not the same as confessing that:

"Jesus Christ is come in the flesh"

or that

"Thou are the son of the most high God".

Don't you?

Another supposed contradiction that can easily be explained!

giulia

07-12-2007, 05:13 AM

grace2u

07-12-2007, 05:14 AM

Well actually I thought I just had a low self opinion at times. Which in some ways doesn't make sense except I am very, very hard on myself. (Although others seem to be catching up with me.)

still_small_voice

07-12-2007, 05:30 AM

"Another supposed contradiction that can easily be explained!"

Well he was standing there in the flesh when they said it, what else do you think that means?

Grace, I already know, you will never, never ever admit to any shred, iota, or inkling of... errancy... or that man and his will had anything to do with compiling, writing, or editing the new or old testament, NO MATTER WHAT. At this point, I throw these things out to you for sheer entertainment value, and to see how you answer.

Just how does one test the spirits though? And how do you know you are dealing with a spirit? You believe in demon possession? How can you tell if a person is possessed or is everyone possessed that is not saved? Are medical illnesses possession? Some of them? How can you tell them apart?

I can say with my mouth right now that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and is the Son of God... would this make you assured that I am of God? I have known cult leaders that said it also and they were no more of God than a billy goat. People can lie you know, if they are free moral agents as I assume you believe.

still_small_voice

07-12-2007, 05:38 AM

16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.

How to tell a believer: They can
cast out devils,
speak in tongues,
handle serpents,
drink deadly poisons,
heal the sick.

Have you ever cast out a devil? Have you laid hands on someone and they were healed? Not Benny Hinn style, but really healed? Maybe you speak in tongues, I know many do. The cult leaders in some churches do that too.

I assume you have not picked up a serpent. Have you drank poison?

How am I supposed to know the signs follow you as a believer if you have done none of these things?

I would almost daresay you are not one, because you do not meet the critera.

grace2u

07-12-2007, 05:54 AM

Have I ever cast out a devil - yes - metaphorically speaking (and we have had these discussions about Bible interpretations I have).

Speak in tongues - I speak in English and a little piglatin.

Handled serpents - oh yea, but more of the metaphoric types.

Drink deadly poison - everytime I digest the false words of the liar I drink deadly poisons but I still have eternal life.

Heal the sick - When I can I try to say a word of encouragement to those who's hearts are sick and hope I bring them healing.

I meet all of them!

grace2u

07-12-2007, 06:06 AM

Still . . . some of the questions that you have asked I haven't really come to a thoroughly thought through. I see demon possession as a bit more metaphoric though right now. I'm not making that doctrine or preaching it here. That's just where I'm at with it so casting out demons (although there is a spiritual dimension no doubt) seems to manifest itself by the circumstances of reality around me and how I see God getting rid of the things that oppress me in my life and in others.

And sometimes this can seem just as spooky (from an emotional level) as what you see in the movies although I don't see any physical stuff or any distortion in my body (or I suppose others) except that which occurs from my own crying and tears.

Beyond that God hasn't brought me to the level to respond to you on the other yet.

turtle

07-12-2007, 12:55 PM

You know these are good questions, and I really think as a believer God gives discernment of what is right and wrong. Also I think God allows us to see what is not right as far as spirituality. For example some of the ministers we see on tv that go around prophesing this or that and then these things do not ocme true would be consider a false prophet. A minister that works his people and does not pay though he promised to pay would be consider a monster especially if these families had kids. If what they teach does not line up with their actions.

Sometimes their actions might be because of fear or paranonia but in general what does there action speak. Not everyone is perfect. I once to a lie because I got scared. Does that make me a devil. Probably not. But if my general actions are devilish in nature I would say yes. If I go around hating instead of caring. Not honoring my commitments that for me would be deceit unless there was some reason I could not because health or emergency.

I do not see many of the prophets handling snakes in the old testament or many drinking poison. In the new testament only Paul got bit by a poisoness snake and did not die or get sick. I often think of these things as a testimony to those that were non believers not to those who already believed. In other words God's miraclous power in our lives as a believer that testify who God is and not who we are.

"Christian snake handlers" would be testing God not testifying of the miracle work of God in their lives because of a dangerous situation. They are manifesting a situation. This is fakery. We can not manifest situations to glorfiy God. That is using God for ourselves and tempting God.

I John deals with the anti Christ alot. But I think key thing is do actions speak louder then words.

giulia

07-12-2007, 11:48 PM

I have had many demons cast out of me (many different voices),pastors stayed there just and hardly as I heard it was very scary. Much of the church ran out screaming.

I know the demons are scared of me, but we are told not to rejoice because of this, but to rejoice because our name is written in the book of life, this too (having demons shake because of you) can be a source of pride.

Love is greater than even all the gifts, even doing miracles. Love is not airy fairy, neither is it accepting of sin, love does not rely on miracles to make it just, love already is just.

turtle

07-12-2007, 11:54 PM

guillia i have to ask do you remember hearing many voice in your head before demons were cast out of you???? If not how do you know it is true?

giulia

07-13-2007, 03:29 AM

Because I heard them when they were coming out, and it wasn't my voices, it was voices of many, not only my observation, but also that of others observing.

My throat was not swollen nor affected and there was a separation so I knew what was going on and was also an observer, but I was also knocked out.

There was two of me.

turtle

07-13-2007, 03:56 AM

How do you know there were two of you. Occult groups claim to have out of body experiences. Did you know that. I heard a funeral home said people would hit the floor everytime some came in to view the body. It was psychologically done not spiritually done. People can vodoo people in to thinking something is real when it is not.

giulia

07-13-2007, 04:07 AM

It was no voodoo, it was the power of God, the pastor put out his hand and didn't even touch me, hut I got thrown to the floor, it was like I was knocked out but still aware of what was going on, anyway don't you know that everything the devil does is a copy of what God can do?

The bible even claims (what can be described as) out of body experiences with St. John revelation and even St. Paul said he didn't know if he was in the body or out of it.

turtle

07-13-2007, 04:19 AM

Paul was a christian when he said that, were you a christian at the time the devils were castout

giulia

07-13-2007, 05:33 AM

And when people tell me I am a witch or I have demons, that's great because they did the same to Jesus, so I must be doing something right.

giulia

07-13-2007, 05:37 AM

No I was an ungodly person then (some would call me a witch),but can God be limited to that?

As I said the devil copies what God does. You don't understand it and call it demonic, in fact God's movement may look demonic when it is at its most powerful, but the fruit is good so how can it be demonic?

turtle

07-13-2007, 11:38 AM

I heard a similiar story once. The man was mentally ill and after the ordeal still claimed a shadow followed him. Now tell me something you are either deliver or not delivered. Problem being his whole family was mental ill. He was made to think He was possessed, he was made to think what he experienced was real and it was not. How do I know because of this man's life style still reflected his pass and how much a hold his illness had on him. I hurt badly for this person, because the church had used him. I have seen more then one case of it. The shadow was probably his own shadow because he lived in a dark house with poor lighting.

Here is the thing mental illness often is described as demonic. Some of the cases in the Bible are consider epilpsy or mental illness. Can someone be possessed that would be and interesting topic of study. I think so Saul was possessed by evil spirit. Who gave him that evil spirit?? take a look and find out.

giulia

07-13-2007, 12:53 PM

Yup, it happened and it is real, no history of mental illness in my family and my family are also all well educated.

Demons exist. It was true in the bible, it is still true now, not that we have more education and understand better because we don't, just ask any psych and see for yourself, they still cannot make any sense of conditions such as multiple personality or schizophrenia or bipolar or manic obsessive and compulsive etc etc etc.

turtle

07-15-2007, 12:22 AM

Now in Saul's Case is evil spirit literally evil spirit as an spiritual being or not?? That is the main question. And it is something to ponder. Saul would of been sadden that he would loose the thrown and his ancestors would not rule in his place. Proof he chased the next chosen king wishing to cause him harm. Was saul mental paranoid or literally possessed? This may be a question one will fully never completely have a correct answer too.

grace2u

07-15-2007, 04:34 AM

I have never heard "many" voices coming out of my head. Never. I have felt like I have heard on a clear occasion or two a single voice. For example one that told me I was going to have a wreck and to slow down and shortly - within less than a minute but long enough for the scenery to change so I couldn't have foreseen the event - it happened.

It has been an extremely rare situation where this has happened. My take on this is just to not judge the situation. It could be your conscience or it could be just a desire (i.e. for those that want to accomplish something). For instance today I felt this huge impression that I was going to lose some weight. I say great. Still that could be myself talking to me.

Doesn't mean that I'm mentally ill or anything like that just means that there are good things working for what ever reason.

There are other weird things that have happened to me in which I have actual physical evidence (which has been arranged to be kept in a very safe place) that an impression or voice occured for a reason (and this does not necessarily mean it was from God) or at least it was related to activity by others going on around me. I mean some good solid evidence. And the only reason I'm keeping it is that it proves that I am sane beyond a shadow of a doubt. 

As far as Saul, if Saul had at least repented and gone to God and said - God, I do not know what to do with this sin that I have but I give it to you to work Your Wonder and Glory in - I think Saul would have been better off.

Still - Saul is an example in which many point to indicating that God sent the evil spirit. Job is another case in which God allowed satan to harass him but for a completely different reason.

I have had elements of both types of harassment in my life. With the Saul type the only thing I know to do is to say "God, I'm a sinner and I know you don't want me to sin but I'm giving it to You. I obviously cannot do this - forwhatever reason - will You work in my life to help me with this." And I am so thankful to God that He loves me enough to do this to get me to see my sin.

The Job thing is very similar to what promises firm is doing on another thread. Half truths with added things that are incorrect. The funny thing is that this type of harassment is making me stronger. When I came to this boards through another group it was said by some one that they could not believe how much I was being attacked (and even by both sides). Well, I have learned that there is a very good reason for this - satan is very afraid of what God might do in my future if I can allow God to continue to course correct me. I don't know what God may do to use a sinner like me who has failed miserably but I know that God likes to be a miracle worker like this and I am greatful for it!

And this gives me great faith. I now realize that the more I am attacked the more evidence it presents to me that I CAN and WILL be used of God in whatever manner God wants to use me.

I can't do anything about the talents that I have wasted away and let satan steal from me but I can do something about any future talents.

And I plan to do God good and make satan's concern about me very real!

I cannot tell you how mentally strong and ready for the future I feel today. God had to take me through some low valleys but I am excited about the faith that this journey has given me!

turtle

07-15-2007, 05:13 AM

Moving forward in a positive way. God is strengthening and establishing you for His purpose, not your own. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

grace2u

07-15-2007, 05:59 AM

Yes, very key "not your own".

Something I need to remember and put in front of me daily. Thank you!

turtle

07-15-2007, 11:45 AM

grace2u,

Take a look at this verse and the meaning of the two pillars. 2Chronicles 3:17. It takes a little research but I think you'll like it.

(Message edited by turtle on July 15, 2007)

grace2u

07-16-2007, 12:34 PM

Turtle,

2Ch 3:17 -
reared up: 1Ki_7:21
Jachin: that is, He shall establish
Boaz: that is, In it is strength

I just wanted to say that I did see your post but I've just been very busy. Yes, thank you for posting that. It was timely. That and someone else's word about how only God can know what is in the heart. I was thinking about that yesterday. You read all the accusations that are thrown across Factnet and I have also been trying to teach my child this too - no one but God can know a person's motive. Yet it seems like we all act like we know a person's motive and try to set as judge.

This is what I think. (Not saying that is Biblical but I suspect it is.) We all have the capacity to let true words and false words out of our mouths (even the prophets of old). We better, however, be careful regarding who we attribute these words to. Sometimes it is best to let words fall or stand on their own.

My motive when I talked about having a dream about a house? Basically curiousity. In fact that has been a big motive although not always my complete motive but a driving factor. It just stood out, seemed to go along with the conversation of the days, and struck me as a bit odd. I was a bit clueless all in all and didn't have a clue that it was talking about God wanting to establish a better built home for Him in my life. It is kinda funny how God gets us though - those are pretty good words to have to eat though.

Here is another dream or impression that came after this though - see if it relates to the above to you. It inspired this poem which again I wrote in a pretty clueless state but I think you can see it is related.

An Impression in Time
(Haggai 1:15)

In the four and twentieth day of the sixth month,
Prophetic doth it seem.
But there is something here of substance
God has wanted for me to glean.

In the four and twentieth day of the sixth month,
Poetic as it seems.
The work was that of magnificence
When Darius was the king.

A riddle, a dream, a vision of glory
In which a nugget lay.
But understanding the meaning of the story
Is like trying to find a needle in the hay.

Consider your ways and God’s glory,
And the promise of blessings will ring.
When in your heart and your temple,
Jesus Christ is King.

The beauty of most of this relates to God giving me these things when I am clueless about even the doctrine or symbolism and then letting them slowly reveal the meanings in my life. It makes me think that He is indeed walking and talking with me. That's not to say that sometimes the devil cannot come along and distract me and try to imitate Him but at least I know He is indeed there.

turtle

07-16-2007, 09:10 PM

Take a look at habakkuk 1:5.

grace2u

07-16-2007, 11:56 PM

Is this is what you are referring to?:

Hab 1:5 -

for I will work

Verse 5 (Hab_1:5) anticipates the dispersion among the nations according to Scofield.

Compare (Deu_28:64-67).

While Israel as a nation is thus dispersed, Jehovah will "work a work" which Israel "will not believe." (Act_13:37-41); interprets this prediction of the redemptive work of Christ. It is significant that Paul quotes this to Jews of the dispersion in the synagogue at Antioch.

I'm sorry - I'm still trying to figure this out completely. I just had an impression that God was trying to tell me something in application (not necessarily interpretation although I could be missing it) with this scripture.

turtle

07-17-2007, 12:47 AM

Grace2u,

I you build a house you build it by going and either getting a contractor and blue prints. Or you go to a realtor looking for a house to buy. Correct. Now God word is He wants to do the work. He wants to build the house. Not by our might nor our power, but His. In other words God builds the house. The foundation is built by Him. The work He would do in habakkuk would be done by whose power. Not by habakkuk or by the power and ability of israel. But by God's ability.

God brings meaning through His word to us. He speaks through the word to us. Some verse on some days have less meaning to you and I, but on another given day God takes that word that we know and it pentrates our hearts. When we build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, God is the one doing the building in our heart. If it is going to be strong and firm God got to do the work. All we have to do is be obedient and wait upon the Lord. Jesus is the master builder. I can teach all day but unless God speaks to your heart on the subject it is really just me blabbering away even if I am teaching truth. God opens the heart and pentrates the heart of man. His word speaks through His Holy Spirit.

(Message edited by turtle on July 16, 2007)

grace2u

07-17-2007, 12:57 AM

Yes I would agree.

turtle

07-17-2007, 01:47 AM

Now understanding God does the building and strengthening and establishing, it does not mean everything we do is because of God nor everything He does is because we yielded to His will for our life. I think what is key is recognizing God created. God gives us abilities but how we use these abilities whether for God or not is often another thing and goes with this topic.God gave man the insinct to plant and hunt to have a family to seek shelter and many more things. God gave the ability for us to explore science and make new inventions. Not all inventions are of God. A nuclear bomb to destory another place is not God design but man's. It is a weapon cause to do harm. God does not need weapons of mass destruction to defeat the enemy, but we has humans think we do because we are relying on our ability and not God's to defeat and destroy. God created plants that turn out to be a good pharmacy source. We put certain plants together and get new drugs. When these drugs are use properly they produce a cure. When use improperly they create a habit. So man has a way of twisting what God has already designed for us to use and create with. But we often decide to use something for evil.

Giving God glory for those things He already created for a purpose and use is wonderful but misuse can often cause death.

grace2u

07-18-2007, 12:40 AM

Turtle,

Do you know of anything in the study of the temple which would indicate that there is something in the temple which would be symbolized as a chariot or for our modern day minds a vehicle of sorts?

turtle

07-18-2007, 02:13 AM

Interesting thought not positive of the question you are really asking. But the only connection that comes to mind right off would of been a cart or chariot that the ark of the covenant would of rode on going to the promise land and also after that time period. Remember the nation that stole the ark of the covenant and got tumors. Sent the ark back to Israel by the way of two milch cows driving a cart.

Otherwise I have to do alot of looking if this is not what you are asking about. So either point me to a discussion or point me toward where you are looking, so I can study it. This is not my expertise.lol

grace2u

07-18-2007, 08:36 AM

Could a car or vehicle in a dream perhaps be considered like a modern day chariot?

Maybe it refers to the Holy Spirit?

I'm not sanctioning the following webpage just curious about it:

http://www.totheends.com/chariot.html

And it bothers me a bit to consider part of the Bible dangerous. Don't know if I like that part of it.

turtle

07-18-2007, 10:50 AM

I am not an end time theologian which might surprise you. Of course most Bible scholars do have their own opinion of certain events. The thing not mentioned in this article but realize I was skimming was UFOs. But that is what popped into my head. Some people claim and I think it is out of ignorance instead of facts that the beginning chapter of The book Ezekiel mentions UFOs. I think in all practical purposes it is best something are not looked into scientifically. I am not saying to be ignorant. But chasing after every end time theology can lead someone to concentrate more on the coming then on the work that needs to be done here on the earth, which is sharing the gospel.

Now with that said what was I able to find out.

Chariots of the Sun
(&#1502;&#1512;&#1499;&#1468;&#1489;&#1493;&#15 14; &#1492;&#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1513;&#1473;, markebho&#772;th ha-shemesh): These, together with “horses of the sun,” are mentioned in 2Ki_23:11. They are said to have stood in the temple, a gift of the kings of Judah. Josiah removed the horses from the precincts of the temple and burned the chariots. Among the Greeks, Helios was endowed with horses and chariots. Thus the course of the sun as he sped across the skies was understood by the mythological mind of antiquity. The Babylonian god Shamash (= Hebrew Shemesh) likewise had his chariot and horses as well as his charioteer. The cult of the sun and other heavenly bodies which was particularly in vogue during the latter days of the Judean monarchy (compare 2Ki_23:5; Eze_8:16 f; Deu_17:3; Jer_8:2) seems to have constituted an element of the Canaanitish religion (compare the names of localities like &#1492;, Beth-shemesh and the like). The chariots of the sun are also referred to in Enoch 72:5, 37; 75:4, and Greek Apocrypha of Baruch 6. Source "Internation Study Bible Encyclopedia"

We often forget pagean theology often influence Jewish culture during certain periods. That is why there was a cleansing that happened in Israel. They would have to get rid of anything impure. Today people would consider this to be cultic practice. But most religions and even none religions of the world often want their ideas heard above another. On great thing about living in the USA we have freedom to worship and believe exactly how we want. Except when it comes to groups that go literally around killing in the name of their beliefs or God.

Some would consider any form of christianity a hate group, but depends on how one looks at it and what the actions of a person speak. Then my question would be is it true christianity if their is hate. It is like the arguments I have with athetist on these boards. Do I hate them. No, do I wish for them to understand their is a God of course because I believe God is truth. But as far as hurting them, no because I believe God is a choice. Just like love is a choice.

What is funny is athetist seem to desire to attack my beliefs though they are the one's asking the questions. Even though I try and give them a peace offering and try to get them to focus on the similiarities they see no similiarities. So what does this mean. They would rather see me stop believing I think and have no desire for true peace.