The Law of the Land

[bluewater2]

"Your atheistic world view cannot even begin to make a meaningful argument about what is morally correct because it has no absolute standard with which to live." I don't think that an absolute moral standard is necessary. Why do you? In the areas where people cannot agree, where one man's pleasure is another mans sin, there is a mechanism called the law of the land which is determined by a consensus of the people or voters in any given area.

If you are trying to make the argument that there is moral certainty in the bible, I think that you are wrong about that. The FACT that so many people can argue about the meaning of the bible, especially amongst fellow christians just shows that there is no "certainty" in that book either.

Termin8d, what IS the point you are trying to make? You seem to start alot of topics but never finish them. We are still waiting for your big dissertation on what happened to Jesus.

[fatherofaking]

termin8ed thinks that he has an absolute moral standard that atheists do not have but is unable to tell us what this standard is.
i would think if it is absolute then we should use it as our rule of law.
who could argue with it?

[jeff_franklin]

"there is a mechanism called the law of the land which is determined by a consensus of the people or voters in any given area."

And in a Christian Judeo founded nation such as the United States what is the source of this law of the land that the people voted on?

The Ten Commandments for one.

Athens citizens voted that Socrates must kill himself. They also voted life or death for a General who lost a battle. Is that the kind of law you want people to able to vote for? Life or death for someone they disagree or are dissatisfied with?

God burns into the heart of every human God's absolute laws. The knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. We are all born with this knowledge inside of us. To deny that is to deny the head on top of your neck.

[bluewater2]

First of all Franklin, as I have said many times here, the bible, the ten commandments as you call them, came from the mind of man. I think that generally there are some good rules in there that man came up with. Do you follow all of them? How do you feel about that one about coveting thy neighbors wife? Is that a law? Luckily for christians, they don't have to live following the 10 commandments as long as they accept Jesus on their death beds.

Many of the laws that we have in this nation are nowhere to be found in the bible and were determined by the mechanisms available to us in a democratic society.

I think that any idea the the bible should be the source of all laws, if that is what you and termin8d are trying to say would be limited and overly simplistic.

The 10 commandments are from the Jewish Bible. What are some of the laws that you find only in the new testameht that you think are good?

[jeff_franklin]

The Ten Commandments are what God has burned into the hearts of men and women since the beginning of time. All societies, civilizations, cultures have the same laws. Not by cultural exchange but by the same original source, God.

The same tribe in the Amazon that has never had contact with the outside world has the same laws. Same laws as the remotely isolated tribe of New Guinea natives. These laws were not developed by trial and error. Not decided upon by consensus or election. These are the natural laws of all men and women, humanity. Something we are all born knowing.

If you lived in a country where the consensus was that all those who believe in God or those who shield them were to be persecuted and imprisoned or put to death would you follow that law?

You say they are generally good rules. Do you follow all of them? I am not the perfect Son of God, Jesus Christ. Are you?

All of these natural laws are meant to protect society and preserve life. All good reasons for them. One reason for natural laws protecting marriage is to preserve society. A society falls apart when children do not know who their father is. Or a father is not certain that their child is really their child.

We are blessed by God's grace by not having to live by the law because we are all going to fail doing so. It is only by God's grace and our acceptance of God's son as our Savior that we will have everlasting life in the presence of God. Thank God! Christ has RISEN! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bluewater2]

"The Ten Commandments are what God has burned into the hearts of men and women since the beginning of time." I agree with that. What did the cave men call them before the bible was written?

"All of these natural laws are meant to protect society and preserve life." Agreed.

"A society falls apart when children do not know who their father is. Or a father is not certain that their child is really their child." A child is not a society.

"It is only by God's grace and our acceptance of God's son as our Savior that we will have everlasting life in the presence of God. Thank God! Christ has RISEN!" You sound like you are losing it, Franklin.

[jeff_franklin]

So children born outside of marriage, not being sure who one's parents are, who and where one's children are does not effect society at all? Hogwash!

I've gained it all. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

You are the loser! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[bluewater2]

"So children born outside of marriage, not being sure who one's parents are, who and where one's children are does not effect society at all?" The son that I adopted at birth from a 15 year old drug addict is doing well, thank you.

What about children born within marriage that are abused or abandoned? I just don't see your point. How did you get from telling me that the 10 commandments are ingrained in people since the beginning of time, which is way before man wrote them on paper in the bible, to telling me that troubled children have it rough? I don't follow your logic. It is always better to be raised in a loving family. Your point?

[jeff_franklin]

What was your point in bringing up the "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife..."

I was explaining why the natural laws protecting marriage are important to a society. Once again you evade a direct question. Thank God for adoptions. Thank God for good adoptive parents. But that has nothing to do with the point I made or the question I asked of you.

Rather than just being a seeker of adversarialship why not just be a seeker of truth? You get so ensnarled with being the devil's advocate you've grown horns yourself.

t.o.: grownup adults don't insult and call names like you do. Mature people don't act predatory and persecute, ridicule, bully like you do.

You claim you left the Baptist Church. More than likely you were kicked out. Your actions are that of a mean and nasty 3rd grade school girl, not of a mature adult. Not of a man. But what else can be expected of you. you hate God, you hate all humanity too. I will continue to pray for your lost tormented soul and all the souls you are trying to drag into your cesspool with you.

[bluewater2]

"What was your point in bringing up the "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife..." Because it is obviously not against the law to covet a woman married to another person which says that not all of the 10 commandments are against the law. That is my point. Don't take things so personal. Not everything is directed at you, you self centered person.

"Rather than just being a seeker of adversarialship why not just be a seeker of truth?" First of all, the problem is that my seeking and revealing truth is percieved by you as a personal attack becuase you are so insecure. Second, it takes two to be adversarial. It always seems to be you that comes into these conversations second so without you there would be no adversarialocity!!!

[bluewater2]

By the way, Franklin. I am trying to find the direct question that you say I did not answer. Please re-ask it and I will answer. One question at a time please. I am happy to answer.

[jeff_franklin]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif I didn't take that personally. Why would I? Just thought it was strange like everything you write.

You said you did not see the logic in what I write and you told you I see no point in your questions.

Here is what I wrote and how you responded.

A society falls apart when children do not know who their father is. Or a father is not certain that their child is really their child.

"A child is not a society."

You seem insensitive to the importance of a child or children in a society.

My question is.......

So children born outside of marriage, not being sure who one's parents are, who and where one's children are does not effect society at all?

I am never threatened by anything you spew. You are a preacher man of atheism and nobody is buying. You are very insecure in your beliefs which you constantly display every time you ridicule anyone who believes differently.

You are doing our society a public disservice by shoving your religion down everyone's throats here when what most of us are here for is to discuss cults and promote cult awareness. Your ridiculous laughable wild eyed fanatical claim that Christianity is a cult relegates you to the most ludicrous posters on factnet that no one here takes seriously.

You want the truth?

You can't handle the truth that there is a God and that Jesus is RISEN!

[bluewater2]

"So children born outside of marriage, not being sure who one's parents are, who and where one's children are does not effect society at all?" My answer to your incredibly insightful question is that all people effect society in one way or another. Having loving parents, whether inside or outside of marriage is a better environment than having abusive ones or not knowing who they are. I think the key word here is loving, not marriage. There are certainly thousands of cases of children being raised by their biological parents, abused by them and ultimately being a burden on society as they develope into citizens unable to take responsibility for their own lives. There are also multitudes of cases where orphaned children were able to overcome their adversity and become assets to society.

So, what is your point? I will ignore your other stuff and see if we can stay on topic and have a discussion where one person asks a question, which you did, the other answers it, which I did, asks a question, which I did, and then you answer, and on and on.

Thanks.

[jeff_franklin]

Well this is way off topic but that is why marriage is important in a society. The majority of a society's children do grow up in homes raised by both biological parents in a loving environment. We should never lose sight of that fact. Where that does not take place then adoption in a loving environment is the better alternative. Why would a home life not be a loving environment? Because some or all in that domicile do not try to obey the natural laws that each soul has knowledge of.

What is a law from the New Testament that I believe is important?

Matthew 22

34"But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

[bluewater2]

"36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. "

I can see how this would be the formost important rule for christians.

So are you saying here that this should be made into a law of the land?

[jeff_franklin]

It already is the law of the land. It is burned into all of our hearts.

And no I do not advocate a theist theocracy like I hope you do not advocate an atheist theocracy.

But Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself is the law of the land on paper.

On that simple phrase hangs all of the laws.

[bluewater2]

"36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. "


"It already is the law of the land."

Really? Could you please direct me to a state or federal code of laws where this is so? Or is it actually something that is simply written in the bible?

Thank you.

[jeff_franklin]

It already is the law of the land. It is burned into all of our hearts.

It is already burned into your heart. It can not be removed.

The second law Jesus gave us, "Love thy neighbor" hangs on the first.

You say you have a problem loving your enemy?

There you have it!

If you would love God you would find it easy to love your enemy. Your enemy is your neighbor too.

How could we hate our enemy when we say we love God? God includes all of God's creations. If God who is imperfect can love your enemy why can't you who is imperfect not love your enemy too?

Learning about God is lessons in LOVE! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bluewater2]

In a normal discussion, as mentioned earlier, questions get asked, then answered, the answerer asks, and that question is answered. The next question in the "question queue" was, "Could you please direct me to a state or federal code of laws where this is so?". This was in your response to your statement that "36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. " is already the law of the land.

I look forward to your answer. Then it will be your turn to ask a question that I will gladly answer.

Thank you.

[jeff_franklin]

And I answered it.

Are you denying that the law of the land is based on this?

Matthew 22

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[bluewater2]

My question, which was the next one in the "question queue" was, Could you please direct me to a state or federal code of laws where this is so? Did you answer that one somewhere and I missed it?

[bluewater2]

Franklin, do you have a problem with answering questions in order? I am still waiting for the answer to mine. Anyone can follow this thread and see who is attempting to stay on topic and who might have said something without thinking first.

I look forward to your answer to my question. You stated that "36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." was the law of the land. Could you please direct me to a state or federal code of laws where this is written?

[jeff_franklin]

Who set this thread up?

I never made these posts here.

Are you trying to rig a debate again?

[bluewater2]

Why are you unable or unwilling to respond to a question generated by a comment you made? Is it perhaps a comment that you made in haste and would like to rephrase it?

[jeff_franklin]

I never regret a comment that I make to you.

Now!

Who set this thread up?

I never made these posts here.

Are you trying to rig a debate again?

<font color="ff0000">THESE POSTS WERE MOVED BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TOPIC.</font>

(Message edited by admin on August 21, 2007)

[rachelengland]

Hey now Bluewater..are we sure it is not against the law to covet another man's wife? There are many strange laws sitting on the books that we are unaware of-they vary from state to state...but one thing is for sure-we KNOW it is not a healthy thing to covet anything...coveting another man's wife or anothers material possesions has led to many a murder and scandal...

Now whoever truly came up with those 10 or more moral concepts-I say kudos to you! I also must say following those Ten Commandments will keep you out of trouble-lying, cheating, killing, hating , adultery, none of that leads to any good..

[ba2]

It depends on which meaning you use for the word “covet”. An old Greek friend of mine tells me that the original Greek word had a very different meaning than it does today. It was very strong, that is, it was more than just a desire. It meant you were plotting and making moves to take it for yourself. For example, make your neighbor’s husband look bad so that you can get to the wife. It meant you had such a desire that you constantly thought about it, and would be willing to do just about anything, lie, cheat, even cause a war to get her. Think about Helen of Troy, wife of king Menelaus of Sparta. Her abduction by Paris brought about the Trojan War. This is what “coveting of your neighbor’s wife” meant to the early Greeks, and the story was engrained in Greek legend and history.

Simply wishing one could have a home and/or wife as good as their neighbor is not a bad thing. But coveting, well that is another story.

[bluewater2]

Specifically, Franklin had said that "36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." is the law of the land. I was asking him to direct me to a state or Federal code that states that this is the case. Or admit that he had misspoken. We all know that he will do neither.

Certainly their are the 10 commandments, which are in the bible. Man has been around lots longer than the bible has. What code did they live by? Where did their moral compass come from? I think it is simply common sense and the 10 commandments is a written version of a small part of that moral compass. The worshipping god crap is most definately added for the sake of the religious followers that the bible is aimed at.

So, Franklin. Are you going to be a man and continue our conversation, answering the questions as they are asked? Or make the SC people look like they know what they are talking about when they call you disingenuous.

[ba2]

Maybe he was referring to the land of Israel? If not present day, Israel of a few thousand years ago.

[bluewater2]

Uh, yeah. Maybe.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jeff_franklin]

uh, ba if you would read my posts for yourself which seems mighty mysteriously were transfered from "What Happened to Jesus?" to a new thread by the"Admin" who seems to follow bw around this cult awareness forum and instantly does his bidding, you will see what I wrote and not take bw's perversion of what I wrote.

I wrote on the other thread...

It already is the law of the land. It is burned into all of our hearts.

It is already burned into your heart. It can not be removed.

In that respect the law...

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. "

is the law of the land. Not written into man's laws but burned into our hearts.

Any child reading that would understand what I wrote.

As usual bw is hell bent in driving his atheist agenda and wants to take offense to and then pervert anything a theist writes.

Jesus!

Boo!

The second Law that Jesus gave us to follow is based on the first.....

Matthew 22

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

is what our laws are based upon. Loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. Or has been coined "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Anyone want to deny in a Christian Judeo founded nation that our laws are based on this concept?

[rachelengland]

Ba...you know that the word "covet" in that instance did not mean-"oh gee look at my neighbors wife, she is so sweet and kind and never argues-sure wish my wife was like that". NO! it meant-she is attractive to me and I am going to do what I can to get her!That is where these ideas make so much sense-it is the thought that can lead to murder-I know I watch snapped on the oxygen channel(JOKING)

Rather Franklin-who would like to argue that these laws do not make sense-for they certainly do...

(Message edited by rachelengland on August 21, 2007)

[bluewater2]

Bluest of the bluewaters that cover the Earth-listen Franklin is a christian to him "loving the Lord God with all your heart" is a commandment that makes sense When people like Franklin stop thinking that things that are written in the bible are the "law of the land", he will begin to make sense.

There is no doubt in my mind, Franklin, that you all too often open your mouth before you think and rather than admitting that you misspoke, you become even more stupid and start telling people that they just don't get it.

Your believing that "It already is the law of the land. It is burned into all of our hearts" is not only one of the more assinine comments that you have made, but completely discounts the fact that there are many who don't believe in your bible or your god and you think you are talking for them.

Your stupidity knows no bounds. I love watching you get your butt handed to you by the SC'rs everytime you poke your head in over there. As much as I dislike racism, especially the kind that you claim that SC'rs are guilty of, I dislike dishonesty even more. You are very dishonest.

I have a new word for you:
DISINGENUOUS: "not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness"

Anytime you want grow up and to try to carry on a conversation that involves asking questions, answering back and forth, let me know.

[rachelengland]

"When people like Franklin stop thinking that things that are written in the bible are the "law of the land", he will begin to make sense".

But some things in the Bible Bluewater are the law of the land!!! Killing, stealing, disobedient, nasty mouthed, violent children who haven't any respect for the elders is not a good thing-taking a day off to relax is even required by "most" employers..It's not all bad and really who of the most common of men even know of any other rules that were formed before these laws-not too many- for most are not scholars who care to wander that far back. I bet some people even think Plato is spanish for plate...

Take the God part out of the commandments fine by me-but some of those are very logical...




Now Franklin and bluewater, this is just old factnet don't let it ruin your day-nobody really pays that much attention anyway... Best regards R

(Message edited by rachelengland on August 21, 2007)

[bluewater2]

The law of the land defined, . . .today it refers to fundamental principles of justice commensurate with due process; "the United States Constitution declares itself to be `the supreme law of the land'"
law, jurisprudence - the collection of rules imposed by authority; "civilization presupposes respect for the law"; "the great problem for jurisprudence to allow freedom while enforcing order" Does not sound like biblical dogma to me.

Gosh Rachel, I liked your post calling me the blueest of the blue. Why did you feel compelled to remove it?

[rachelengland]

Oh, I didn't want you to feel I was flirting with you-I have been trying to revamp my imagine but I can't help myself so I will say it again! Bluest of the bluewaters some of those commandments in that OT are pretty good.


However, I am sure you all are not disagreeing about that. I think what we have here is a man who thinks God put morals into a soul at conception-just like one grows arms and feet and another who just doesn't see it that way(we have discussed this on here for a few years now)...me I just like both of those guys and wish they could just agree to disagree-I hate arguing. Now fighting that's another story(LOL)..R

(Message edited by rachelengland on August 21, 2007)

[bluewater2]

"But some things in the Bible Bluewater are the law of the land!!!!!" Yes, when people decide to make it so, as in PASSING LAWS. I do not argue that most of the 10 commandments are a good idea. The point is that just because they are in the bible does not make them the law of the land, unlike what Franklin says.

[jeff_franklin]

I'll take the slanderous insults from an atheist and pin them like medals on my chest. My Master tells me that if I profess His name to the world that He will profess my name to the Father.

Jesus

Boo!

You ally yourself with racist nazis because you hate me and Christians so much. How sad! How warped you've become.

You live in a predominately Christian nation, founded on the Ten Commandments honored by all Christians, Jews and Muslims and it's driving you insane with rage.

Maybe you should look into denouncing your citizenship and moved to North Korea. They hate Christians just as much as you do. In fact Atheism is the state religion. None other is allowed. Christians are shot on sight. That would be an Atheist's paradise for you.

[bluewater2]

Great point, Franklin.

You win.

[ba2]

Imagine a Christian, Jew, and Muslim in court. How do you want the judge to rule? According to God’s law or man’s law? If you say he should follow God’s law because that is the highest authority (I was told this in my church), then you have to be concerned with the judges interpretation. If the judge happens to be Muslim, how will you feel as a Christian or Jew or for that matter, an athiest, when he uses the Koran, specifically the text which states that you must not believe anyone who is not a Muslim (The Family Of 'Imran 3:73).

No, a judge must rule by man’s law, nothing else will do.

[bluewater2]

Imagine there is a fourth person there, BA. An atheist. That only strengthens the need for there to be man's laws which should take precedence over "god's laws."

[jeff_franklin]

I agree ba. We will always be ruled and judged by man's laws. I never advocated anything else. The Bible does not specify how fast we can legally drive our cars.

But where do these laws that are fair for everyone of all faiths come from? From their sacred texts amalgamated into a living, workable set of codes that allow justice for all.

Where God's law is supreme is where the government is tyrannical in opposition to God's laws and natural law. What law was supreme in Nazi Germany when it was the law to exterminate all Jews, gypsies, union leaders, Catholics, communists and anyone else opposing the nazis. God's law or Hitler's?

If the American government becomes fascist or communist who's laws are you going to obey? The government's or God's laws?

Without God's laws deeply imbedded in our souls there is no amount of laws or enforcement that could ever make a society stable or safe. There you would only have moral relativism otherwise known as law of the jungle.

[ba2]

Franklin, you asked, <font color="0000ff">“What law was supreme in Nazi Germany when it was the law to exterminate all Jews, gypsies, union leaders, Catholics, communists and anyone else opposing the nazis. God's law or Hitler's?”</font> It was never law in Germany to exterminate these people. Although many people eventually figured it out, it was a group of individuals who did these terrible things without the knowledge or consent of the general public. A lunatic is a lunatic, regardless of his faith, or lack of. If Hitler and his cronies would have followed their own laws, the holocaust would never have happened.

Ok, we are a nation whose laws originally were based on Jewish-Christian belief with some Iroquois law and customs among others thrown in. So what? If the communist party gained control, we have to follow our man made laws, regardless how we feel about the party in control, republican, democrat, communist, it doesn’t matter. If our government is overthrown or taken over by a foreign power, then I will consider revolution as viable.

If one is against abortion, is it ok to murder the doctor who performs the “legal” operation? This is a big controversy and I don’t even know where God stands on the abortion topic. Why even bother passing laws if we are free to interpret how ever we want?

[jeff_franklin]

You are way off base ba trying to defend the atheist argument. Way off base!

Duh!?! Hitler was the law in Germany. The nazis were voted into the Reichstag and enacted the anti Jewish laws. Hitler ordered the mass extermination of millions of people. That was the law.

Was that law supreme over God's law?

You would willingly follow the laws of a communist or fascist government?

Where is the logic or reason behind that foolishness.

If you had a choice of one or the other who would you obey?

God or man?

Fortunately today in this country we can follow both.

Will it always be that way?

Who the hello said anything about murdering doctors? That's ludicrous. No one has the right to take life except in defense of their own life.

Don't confuse me with one of those handful of whacked out Phariseed legalist pseudo Christians. That mindset is not part of this discussion.

There is a way for a Christian to believe that God's laws are supreme without going to the fanatical extremes of that. Americans DO believe that God's law is extreme.

Except for a handful like these factnet atheists who believe the law of the land is "if it feels good, do it!"

Your examples are not germane to this discussion.

If a communist or fascist party takes control of this country then the Constitution based on God's laws is violated and we should all stand to overthrow such a government. I believe that will never happen in this country. If so we are a looooong way away.

But if it ever does happen where will you be? Getting your membership card in the Communist party or http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif making a stand against tyranny?

[bluewater2]

Frankin said, "Americans DO believe that God's law is extreme."

Thank goodness that is true.

[jeff_franklin]

That was a typo that you brought to my attention. Thank you for that.


What I wrote above that makes clear what I meant to say.

American's DO believe God law's are <font size="+2">Supreme</font>.

And further than that on the other side of the coin if a poll was taken it would be found that

Americans Do believe that bluewater's ideas of morality are obscene!

You do think that God's laws are extreme.

Like love your neighbor. You have a problem with that.

Like love you enemy. You have a problem with that too.

Truth be told YOU are what is extreme!

[ba2]

franklin,
I am not trying to defend anyone’s argument, atheist or otherwise. But you certainly don’t seem to have a grasp of history, including our constitutional government. Under Hitler, numerous laws were passed which deprived German Jews and a few other groups (gypsies, union leaders, and communists) of their rights of citizenship and civil liberties. Supposedly, the new laws were not solving what was called the “Jewish” problem, so the problem was handed over to the National-Socialist Party for a final solution. Hitler helped fuel the anti-Semitism by emphasizing the view that the Jews were lazy and a problem for society. In the views of most German citizens, Jews were placed in “work” camps. After the war, when most of the common German citizens actually saw what was happening they were sickened, like any normal human would be. My original comment was that if Hitler and his cronies would have followed their own laws, the holocaust would never have happened. “Work” camps and maybe something akin to slavery, yes.

You also seem to have a problem reading through the context of a post. Communists run for public office every election. If they were to gain control of the presidency, they would still have to play within the rules of our constitutional government. And yes, we would be obligated to obey the law. If as a citizen of our great nation, I did not like the direction that the president was taking us (regardless of party), I would more actively campaign for a new leader. I believe I clearly said that if our government was overthrown, I would support revolution. Are you against our American system of government?

You asked, <font color="0000ff">“If you had a choice of one or the other who would you obey? God or man?”</font> I would follow the law of the land, within reason. God only gave me one law, to love. I can do that while I follow any man made law. Now, don’t come up with some hair-brained example of what a communist would require of us. I said, within reason!

My comment regarding the murdering of doctors was nothing more than emphasizing my point that judges must rule on man’s law. Man must not rule on God’s law, to do otherwise would pretty much destroy our American justice system.

You said <font color="0000ff">“If a communist or fascist party takes control of this country then the Constitution based on God's laws is violated.” </font>Exactly how do you come up with that? It wouldn’t be a North Korea style communist government; they would still have to follow our constitutional laws.

But tell me, what federal law in our great country is contrary to what you would consider God’s law?

[jeff_franklin]

Here is where you misunderstood my post above. Re read it again.

Where God's law is supreme is where the government is <u>tyrannical</u> in opposition to God's laws and natural law. What law was supreme in Nazi Germany when it was the law to exterminate all Jews, gypsies, union leaders, Catholics, communists and anyone else opposing the nazis. God's law or Hitler's?

If the American government becomes fascist or communist who's laws are you going to obey? The government's or God's laws?

Name me a communist or fascist government that even if it was duly elected did not become tyrannical.

A communist or fascist elected say as President or Prime Minister but but where opposition parties are allowed representation does not make that government "communist" or "fascist". A communist or fascist government does not allow opposition in the government or anywhere else. One party system.

Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba....

Tyrannical is not the case of a communist or fascist simply getting elected into a government leadership position of a multi party republic. Tyrannical is where there is no opposition party. Tyranny is deadly to all humanity. Even those who support tyranny.

Under tyranny God's law is supreme.

I am well familiar with the rise and the fall of the third reich, history being my hobby. In fact I am rereading for the umpteenth time the book by the same title.

When Hitler became Chancellor he had to work under the constitutional framework of the Weimar Republic under President Hindenburg. When Hindenburg died he combined both positions as him as Furhrer.

All of a sudden there was no constitution and no civil liberties and Hitler had the power of life and death over any German citizen as well as any foreigner in their occupied zones. Tyranny. The Weimar Republic constitution was trashed as well as the Treaty of Versailles. New laws were enacted. That's when the anti Jewish laws were passed by the rubber stamp Nazi Reichstag. There was no turning back.

If there was a successful overthrow of the nazi dictatorship a new constitution would have to be ratified. Hitler and his cronies made sure everything they did had some sort of legal sounding backing.

Do you really believe that 6 million Jews and millions of other Europeans could be exterminated without the world much less the German people knowing about it? They knew about it. Roosevelt knew about it. Churchill knew about it. Stalin knew about it. (of course Stalin had his own larger extermination program going on) and the German people knew about it but felt helpless to do something about it.

I brought up the point where truly God's law is supreme. You diluted and confused my point by changing my word of tyrannical to democratic.

If I lived somewhere where there is no government then God's law is supreme. Where there is tyranny God's law is supreme.

Please talk oranges with me when I am talking about oranges. We already agree about the apples.

Right now I can not think of any particular law in the United States that is blatantly contrary to God's laws. I am sure there are. Can you?

That is not the core of this discussion which is what is the source of the laws we have today. There are many sources, you mentioned some, and they are all theist. The actual structure of the the American government is based similarly to the Roman Republic.

The vast majority of the writers and ratifiers of our constitution were Christian. Are you saying their faith based beliefs had no influence whatsoever in what became the constitution we have today?

One thing for certain is if everyone on the planet obeyed Christ when he said "love thy neighbor" this planet would be paradise. Can we agree on that?

[ba2]

franklin, You actually said, <font color="0000ff">"If a communist or fascist party takes control of this country then the Constitution based on God's laws is violated..."</font> I guess I could say that it could be true for any single party, democrate and republican included, if they went too far with their control.

you asked, <font color="0000ff">"Do you really believe that 6 million Jews and millions of other Europeans could be exterminated without the world much less the German people knowing about it?"</font> Yes, I personally knew some of them. And when the 101st liberated a few of these camps, they forced the local German people to clean up. It was very obvious to these American soldiers that most of the locals had no idea what was happening. The German law did not call for the murder of the Jews. The German people would not haqve allowed it to go that far. This is why we have to watch our government and protect our civil liberties. It happened there and could happen here.

Yes, most of the writers of the constitution were Christian, not all. It was a fight to keep religion out of the constitution. But, of course many of the leanings were from a Christian bent.

One thing we are in total agreement is that if everyone followed the golden rule, the love thy neighbor concept, the world would be a much better place. But franklin, I have even seen bluewater write that. emagine that, an athiest!

[jeff_franklin]

The framers of the American constitution did it just right. Over 200 years old, not bad. They did not want religion mixed in with the government because most came here to escape the Anglican state church of England. I do not know of anyone who advocates more religious leader involvement in our government and don't see that as a threat.

Let's put the golden rule, love our neighbor, whoever we are, whoever our neighbor is in our lives more and more! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif