Shepherds chapel beleifs [Archive]

danispeachy

06-23-2006, 07:03 PM

What do you mean they don't answer questions? You mean they don't answer the questions you have submitted, they don’t answer a broad spectrum of questions or they don't answer the questions posed clearly? Please clarify.

May I also ask why you would say in 1 sentence that they have "odd beliefs" (which can be construed as argumentative) but then state you don't want arguing?

Seems like a loaded question to me. Do you see my point?

Also such "Odd beliefs" have been spoken about at nausea on several threads, so why create a new one? I sure hope you are not hoping that the students will just allow lies to be spread without speaking up. I’m pretty sure that won’t happen.

Other then yes I agree or No I don’t agree, what more is there to say? Especially when trying to avoid an argument.

damon

06-23-2006, 07:57 PM

Hi Arron,

I just wanted to say I appreciate your willingness to confront SC/AM followers. I don't really see where it will do any good. The need to belong to a special group with special knowledge is overwhelming to some people. My uncle is a mormon bishop and I don't understand how he can redefine christian terms and twist God's word the way he and his church does. I used to think the mormons where the best scripture twisters out there but I have come to believe SC/AM and his followers are a little better than the mormons.

When I watch SC/AM it is scary. I think about my Mom who is a christian but has a very dusty bible and how easy it would be to be sucked into SC/AM herasy for people like her and those who have a need to belong to a special group. I thank Jesus that salvation is by God's grace and not our works. I thank God for the simplicity of the gospel to all men and that salvation is not exclusive to any certian group but offered to whosoever shall believe in Jesus for remittance of sin.

Last night on SC, AM stated that rapture believers are close to being destined to hell on the basis of their rapture belief. I thank God that salvation is not dependant on any other issue than am I a sinner and in need of a savior. AM should not insinuate that salvation is dependant on any other thing than God justifying the sinner.

I don't expect to take any mark or "fly away". One day many will just be gone in an instant, no flying lessons needed. AM claims the mark of the beast is "in the mind" and that some have it today. Appearantly he does too, I am sure he still buys things from walmart and he sells his tapes so either we have all taken the mark or it has not yet been administered.

Thanx to ya Arron, Godschild, LLM, David Munson and all the others that post on the threads about SC/AM and defend orthodox christianity.

godchild

06-23-2006, 08:02 PM

Thanks to honest, God-fearing people like you, Damon, am will be brought to his knees, just like his followers will.

am broke his arm, maybe his punishment has begun.
Oh, that's right. That only happens to people who don't follow him!

ezekiel_37

06-23-2006, 09:01 PM

Although I wish you weren't so rude ALL the time, I thank God for you all, for it is you that keep me IN the Word, studying and looking up and double checking just to make sure...and this keeps one sharp, like going back to school and learning...it's actually at times fun...

So, thank you for giving me the 'umf' to prove you wrong in so many accounts by diving into the Word.

Mr Murray makes many dive into the Word as well, but when we do dive into the Word to reproof Mr Murray, low and behold he was telling the truth, and not deceiving like others (pst...look in the mirror). So....Dennis gets to preach and gain valuable experience while Mr Murray probably 'helped' someone(s) at the hospital while mending his injuries...never know...God works in mysterious ways.

In His service
c

preachers_daughter

06-23-2006, 09:02 PM

Join us anytime damon.

llm

06-23-2006, 09:34 PM

Even if Mr. Murray was wrong EZ you wouldn't admit to it, and that much of his "truth" is just opinion and speculation from one man's point of view; like that Christ shortened the tribulation to 5 months...all he gives is an obscure reference that is based in the 5th trumpet and not the 6th.

danispeachy

06-23-2006, 09:39 PM

"am broke his arm, maybe his punishment has begun. Oh, that's right. That only happens to people who don't follow him!"

Look there now, Vivian’s spreading around that Christian love again.

When did you 1st get that mental disorder again Vivian?

You know Zeke, I too am thankful for them. I have been blessed to see 1st hand the way some have to lie, twist, accuse, & insult time and time again. I see very clearly based on the teaching of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that he does not know them. That's what he'll be saying to them too unless they change their ways.

The more evil they do in protest the clearer I see.

Oh yes there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth indeed.

ezekiel_37

06-23-2006, 09:49 PM

so.....

the 5th is the arrival of the locust army......
The fallen angels.....the devil hangs out in heaven accusing the Elect before God, for 1/2 the HOUR of Temptation.....which is the great tribulation.

when 666 happens, 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial, they are all at the same time and MARK the devil as the fake Jesus and the world is quick to realize just what is up.

5 months is the Locust army and the deception that the ac brings. rev 9-fifth trump.

By the way, I would admit if there was something that I do not agree with PM. I study for myself with his guidance, but he is not magical, only a man, as am I so I leave you with that. I cannot get to the door and say.....but pastor murray said...this....or that....

We that study with him understand this fully and reproof him ourselves.....not to is just silly.

So, I am my own boss when it comes to study, although I do enjoy Mr Murrays strict delivery and direction.

I have since used his way of studying and looked up themes in the Word and the multiple times each theme is used, put them together and an incredible wealth of knowledge is gained which leads to a clear picture of prophecy.

He really knows how to study....

And now, so do I.

In Christ's service
c

watchman_2

06-23-2006, 11:16 PM

Obviously, damon has never read the Bible. If damon had, damon wouldn't make such ridiculous statements as:

I thank Jesus that salvation is by God's grace and not our works. 

See Matt. 7:21-23 -

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Since damon is a 'rapturist', damon follows the doctrine of the antichrist. According to the above scripture, damon's works may result in the loss of damon's salvation.

See Rev. 2 and 3. Only 2 out of the 7 types of churches meet with Christ's favor. Looks like orthodox Christianity is on the wrong side on many doctrinal issues.

llm

06-23-2006, 11:20 PM

"so....."

whenyousaysowhatdoyoumeanbythat?

Are you holding Mr. Murray to a less strict guideline when interpeting the word as you do others who disagree with you? I can show you 66 verses that say the sun is moving and the earth is fixed, but you dismiss it for one word "was" that you change to "became", and POOF! the big gap is created between Genesis 1:1, and 1:2.

I've shown explicit scriptural proof that Jethro or was a kenite, but you come up with "land of kenites" that isn't even used in association with Jethro, but rather "land of Midian" is.

I would like at least 2 or 3 more scriptural witnesses that the tribulation is now 5 months, or just say that it is an opinion based upon your interpetation. Believe me, I've heard other explanations of what that verse in Revelation 9 means. And some sound more plausable to me.

S0............when you say things like: "So, I am my own boss when it comes to study, although I do enjoy Mr Murrays strict delivery and direction"

I have to say, the only thing strict is the delivery and direction, but not nessessarly based on the explicit word of God. I prefer the Bible "AS IT IS WRITTEN".

But I like you EZ_38 (see I even gave you a little promotion) a little more than the others
who seem more antagonistic. Watchman_2 should spend more time consulting Watchman_1. A little humor there!

david_munson

06-23-2006, 11:38 PM

See another example of omniscience from Watchman the all knowing.
---
"Since damon is a 'rapturist', damon follows the doctrine of the antichrist. According to the above scripture, damon's works may result in the loss of damon's salvation."

"Obviously, damon has never read the Bible. If damon had, damon wouldn't make such ridiculous statements as:

I thank Jesus that salvation is by God's grace and not our works."
---
Salvation is by God's grace and not our works.
And you challenge that?
Are you sure you are saved Watchman because you discredit the Word of God right there.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5-7.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
-Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Are you boasting about your own works?

By the Grace of the Lord,
Dave
}

watchman_2

06-24-2006, 02:24 AM

Here's David's objective view -

david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson

Post Number: 262
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.112.156
Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 12:17 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shepards Chapel Arnold Murry:where does one begin?
This guy can't even fool my father,who claims to not be a christian.
Anyone who listens to this guy diatribes is in deep doo as far as understanding the Word of God.

His incesant rantings are just too much to deal with.The Kennites,the Kennites.
Hey Arnold,ever hear about the flood?
Guess who died in it?
I have little patience with such arrogent jackasses that claim special revalation.
This guy needs to get an education in biblical theology.Not to mention appologetics,hermanuetics,escatology,etc,etc.

Block your ears from his twisted views.

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!

Nuff said,
Dave}

That's all anyone has to know about David!

david_munson

06-24-2006, 03:05 AM

Yup,
that's all there is to me.
You can tell who I am in one post that was posted how long ago?(exactly one year ago)
And since then what has taken place?

Gee Watchman,
you had to go that far back?
I only have to look at today's posts to see your present temperament.
Maybe even just yesterday's would do but you needed to search a years worth of posts to find that and what does it tell you about me now?

Can't you find anything relevant to the posts I make now?
No?
I don't post that way anymore do I?

Have you grown in your walk with Christ and how you treat others?
I do thank you for pointing out that I have grown beyond that even though I still don't except what I consider to be false teaching from AM.
Oh well,nice try though.
---
What are Arnold's theological credentials,since Watchman brought up that "year old post?"
Where has he studied?
Appologetics,hermanuetics,escatology,etc,etc.
What doctorates does he hold?
Where is he registered as a minister?
Who holds his ministers license?
What seminary did he attend?
Why does he refuse to talk about these things?
---
I am not purposefully goading Watchman.
There is much more to it than that kind of nonsense.
Quote "I have not questioned any ones salvation except to let Watchman have a taste of what he likes to dish out and I do not enjoy doing it."

Simple enough to understand isn't it?

Dave
}

watchman_2

06-24-2006, 03:11 AM

In the past year, David has demonstrated little else. So, I guess his post of a year ago does epitomize him. He was clueless then and he is clueless now.

arron

06-24-2006, 03:45 AM

david keep up the good work JESUS IS HERE.

ezekiel_37

06-24-2006, 08:15 AM

llm,

I said so for the reference between the 5th and 6th trump....

so.......

what is your point....

I agree with 99% of what is taught by the chapel, and the other 1% is on the shelf, so to speak...

I do not hold anyone to any standards, accept the truth in the Word. If that test is passed, then good....

the fixed earth thing, is not something that I need to dive into at this time, however, if I thought there was a shred of biblical and common sense proof I might follow you i a study...

However, since I understand that those verses were written by people a long time ago, for people all through out history (and not just us)...that the earth really doesn'tstay still (at least not to me) and that is what matters. I understand the verses well enough to see what is meant,speaking to all of history, not just this last generation.

There is explicit proof of who Jethro is and he is not a kenite, but only geographically.

as for your scriptural proofs...I see a type with noah, 150 days........

there are others aswell.....

Thanks for the little promotion but my namesake is for a reason, you know, dry bones and all...

but hey, can't we all just get along....

nope.....but let's try anyway

in His service
c

david_munson

06-24-2006, 08:26 AM

Watchman states,
"In the past year, David has demonstrated little else. So, I guess his post of a year ago does epitomize him. He was clueless then and he is clueless now."
---
Now who is clueless?
You haven't any idea what it means to grow in the grace of our Lord and you call me clueless?

Clueless to Watchman means that you don't accept the teachings of Arnold Murray.
I guess I'm in good company then because most Christians reject his theories.

You have such a verbally manipulative mentality my dear friend.

Don't you get that you cannot make me accept what I know is not truth?
The day that you can show me a hybrid human being is the day that I become God almighty.
Not going to happen.
It's like evolution,you can't prove what isn't real.
---
Jesus is real.
Jesus is the point of our focus,not Kenites or jews or any other human being.Just the Lord.

You go your merry little way accusing people you know nothing about as though their lost because they reject error.

Salvation is of the Lord.He is who I look for,not Kenites or demons or whatever,just Jesus.

And Watchman my friend,I have changed the tone of my posts in that year.Have you?
1 Corinthians 13.
Something to consider isn't it?

Dave
}

plow_deep

06-24-2006, 02:11 PM

Godchild wrote:

"am broke his arm, maybe his punishment has begun.
Oh, that's right. That only happens to people who don't follow him!"

I'm guessing that all of you that support Godchilds views are just as happy as can be that a man has broken his arm.

From the non-response, I guess you are all celebrating the physical harm to a fellow human being. "We want blood! We want blood!"

Same old attitude prevails today as it did yesterday.

watchman_2

06-24-2006, 03:04 PM

David,

Certainly, I, personally, could care less whether you accept the truth of God's Word. As I have posted many times, one's beliefs are one's own business. God will judge you and me fairly.

But, it is God's will that all come to repentance. So, in His service, I remind everyone of your quote and accord you another opportunity to repent for your assailable post and ask forgiveness for your uncalled for attack on SCers.

Will you demonstrate Christian behavior and avail yourself of this wonderful opportunity?

llm

06-24-2006, 03:09 PM

"I see a type with noah, 150 days........"

EZ_37,
Noah was in the Ark for a little over 1 year. 600 to 601.

Rev. 913- says of the 6th trumpet they were prepared for an hr, and a day, and a month, and a year.
(not for "the" hr...)

Or in Jeremiah 28 where the false prophet comes in the 5th month to say that the time was shortened to something it was not.

I guess you can use types to paint all kinds of pictures.

The waters fell for 40 days
they prevailed on the earth for 150 days
then they began to abate, and dried up after a year. If Noah had stepped ot of that boat after 150 days he would have been done for.

I believe the answers are closer to David Eells thinking in these matters.
http://www.americaslastdays.com/revelationsteachings.htm

llm

06-24-2006, 04:21 PM

jer 28...maybe the false prophet doesn't come until the 5th month, maybe satan has a decoy, maybe your being set up to jump the gun.

david_munson

06-24-2006, 05:20 PM

Plow_deep,
to the contrary.I don't wish harm to any one but Satan himself.
As for AM breaking his arm,I hope that at his age there are no complications.I know that with older folks it can take longer to heal.I'm not a spring chicken myself though I'm younger than AM is.
No,I'm not out for any blood but that of Christ which washes us clean from our sin.
---
Watchman,
My responces to you have been just that.
You appologise to me if you want to walk the Christian path.You are the one who can't stop yourself even though I have been civil to you.
I know what Christian behaviour is.I also know that using that statement in the context you do is manipulative and insinuative.
(if you're a christian you would do this or that)
I was in a cult that used manipulation in such a manner and it is easy to spot even if it isn't intentional.I'm not sure it isn't in this case.
(just being honest and transparent)

I will however take back the word "jackasses" and replace it with "elitists" because I do believe he has an elitist mentality that smacks of arrogance.
(that is my opinion and yes I have watched him)

Other than that have him post and I will directly address him on the issues.

"ask forgiveness for your uncalled for attack on SCers."

Which SC'rs have I attacked?
I have stated my opinion of AM's doctrines.
I think they are rediculous and untenable at best.
To appologise for what I believe,is hypocritical.
My attitude may have been a little harsh back then but you act as if I was attacking every one.
Not the case.

Keep in mind that you challenged my salvation based on your own belief with no scriptural support for it at all.Just base assumptions.

Then you try to lump sum me,which to be honest is plain rediculous.
(Many parts,many members,many differant giftings)
What happened to discerning the body?

You have dismissed off hand,faith in Christ by others that disagree with AM.
How Christlike is that?

How about this,
you go your way without mentioning me and I'll do the same for you?
Do you think you can do that?

I am not your enemy but it seems at least that you feel like I am because of our differances.

Have a good life and always seek Jesus above all else.

Dave

}}}

plow_deep

06-24-2006, 06:35 PM

Dave,

I agree satan is the enemy.
I'm glad to hear you dont take pleasure in another Christians pain, regardless of what their doctrine is.
The people who do such things only hurt themselves in the long run.

Peace to you and yours.

llm

06-24-2006, 08:04 PM

EZ_37

If you take a magnifying glass to Gen. 8,9 and Rev. 9, you will definately see some similarities. Like 5 months is mentioned twice, first in relation to the head of the scorpion, and second in relation to its tail. Just like 150 days is mentioned twice in relation to prevailing and abating. If you take the one year and minus the 5 months or 150 days (For things to begin and turn...) that leaves 7 months. It would not suprise me if Christ shortened the 7 years to 7 months of the 6th trumpet, but that is just speculation of the types.

llm

06-24-2006, 08:30 PM

I mean Gen 7,8, and rev 9

david_munson

06-24-2006, 09:24 PM

Plow_deep,
The same things happen to believers as well as unbelievers.(except at the judgement seat)
You know the verse that says the sun shines on both the good and the bad.

People are not our real enemies but sometimes we can loose sight of that truth.

Peace in Christ's name,
Dave
}

llm

06-24-2006, 10:17 PM

all the fountains of the deep broke up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Gen 7:11

the star fell from heaven and the bottomless pit was opened Rev 9:1-3

Also the unclean raven went out first after the 5 months or 150 days of Noah...

So.....5 months for the set up-to decieve the elect? Then....... 7 months for the real big show. A little over 1 year is my guess.

I just love Bible Poetry.

godchild

06-25-2006, 01:23 AM

downag
Junior Plowman
Posts: 280
(6/14/06 9:06 pm)
Reply Names and such, movies, themes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate to be a so and so, but I am compelled, lol.

If you want to find Kenite names in the entertainment industry, just look at the credits after a movie and start counting, esspecially in the money/producer category. Golem-Globus, Goldwen, Meyer, and that's the old names, there are plenty of newbies.

Which protocal is this one?

Kenny
(from the fig tree cafe at theseason.org.

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 01:28 AM

still up to no good eh...

is this person here?
can he/she defend his/her words, because I haven't read that one and wouldn't do a study on their names anyway.

godchild, you still do not understand that you do not edify Christ by these actions. you are sinning each time.

In His service
c

david_munson

06-25-2006, 02:39 AM

Hey Godchild,
what's a so and so?
A clothing manufacturer?

Sorry but I just can't resist humor.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

God bless you,
Dave

}

godchild

06-25-2006, 03:00 AM

Dave, I'm not sure what kenny meant, but I doubt if what he was thinking is the same as what I am about what he says. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Isn't it strange that murrayites have come here, told us over and over that we should go to the seasons, and the 'fig tree cafe', and now that someone goes to all the trouble of bringing it here, they get upset. I wonder why? After all, I thought they wanted their words spread! Could we have been wrong in that assumption? Or could it be they would rather share 'just enough for bait'? I would never change what is said there. You can be sure, if I did add even one word, they would be on it like flies on cowpies and shouting it to everyone here. Since they haven't......... WELLL!

I have a feeling they are just itching to delete their whole site or make the whole thing private, but then they would be defeating the purpose of 'warning everyone' wouldn't they!
Did you ever read the book "Catch 22". Not the movie, the book. Since am was a military man, he should know what SNAFU means. One murrayite here said am 'never' goes to the seasons. Now, how would they know that? Do they monitor the man, or read his mind. I'll tell you what. If I had people spreading my 'stuff' on a website created for that purpose, I'd want to check it out once in awhile, wouldn't you.

(It was kenny [downag, who has posted here] who made the comment about being a so and so.) Let me guess. They will say, "Gee, I didn't get the connection between the downag that used to post here and the downag at 'the fig tree'". Yeah, and pigs really do fly!

terluvire

06-25-2006, 04:09 AM

Vivain,

We don't care what downag or any other has to say. lol If you want to debate us on doctrine, please use scripture. That is what any mature person would do. Wouldn't that be better?

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 04:32 AM

who is the accusor in the Word?

In His service
c

arron

06-25-2006, 05:09 AM

godchild i tried the other day to get on arnold murray site but i could not for some reason it would not allow me on there i wanted to hear what he had to say about certian doctrines he had posted. i have heard him and his son (s?) on tv. neither ever answers a question so it would be no use to call it in . or write to him. also i have tried the email but cant get on it either.

danispeachy

06-25-2006, 05:12 AM

"Vivian is a liar and a slanderer, don't listen to anything she has to say"

arron

06-25-2006, 05:30 AM

godchild keep up the good work keep on keeping on pray for me. im listening

david_munson

06-25-2006, 05:58 AM

Godchild,
I don't think that it is possible to(how do I put this?)nail down all the varied beliefs of all SC'ers by the examining of any one individual.

I think that like most groups there are differances within the membership as to what each actually believes but that would have to be addressed by those individuals.Of course there are usaully core beliefs that each identify with.

Most people have some varience with what they believe.
For instance,those who believe in the rapture may believe in one of the three theories,Pre,Mid and Post trib.

I myself believe in pre-trib rapture.
(not that we will escape persecution while here)
You might believe in mid-trib (I don't know) but we both trust in Christ who is our Saviour.
That is where we find our hope.
In Christ alone.
---
I pray that you all are well and trusting in Jesus no matter what situation you find yourself in.

Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave

P.S. I would suggest that each one who posts on this site run security measures.This site is hacked.Here is the report I just got from my security program while posting.
---
Event Reporting Data

Incident ID: 205677492
Source IP: 218.22.181.198
Source ISP: chinanet.cn.net
Incident Score: 5600 <---- indicates a serious intrusion.Anything 1000 or more.

Status: Your event report, in conjunction with other submitted events of this type, has been escalated to the party responsible for the IP address involved.
---
I have notified the IP server that was used for this attack.

}

damon

06-25-2006, 06:38 PM

Watchman,

You can be wrong on all points expept salvation and still recieve heaven. Don't get salvation wrong.

You give a false interpretation of Mtt. 7 21-23. Those people who Jesus will deny are the ones who think their works will get them in. They will suffer for believing and teaching a works based salvation.

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 07:13 PM

you nomad are a judgemental person.

about watchmans understanding of Mat7 21-23, watchman has probably taken into consideration the 'subject matter' and the 'thought being taught by Christ' not just guessing as some do, and definitely not takeing it out of context as many also do.

I believe that this applies to the rapture and to many other groups of believers, none of which are already judged and can come out of their Babylon any time (by God's will).

We can be nice nice all the time, get along with everyone,
or
we can warn souls of the soon upcoming Tribulation and false Messiah's trick of the rapture and false tongues,

being nice nice doesn't always work...that's neither hot nor cold....anything goes.....and God does not like that.

Sometimes, the Word will hurt, and cause division, and be used to divide the people into their respective groups.

Personally, I wanna be on the side of truth, where folks like Watchman will be.

Please use the Lords advice, if your message is not accepted, wipe the dust from your feet and move on. Since this thread is 'HOME' to many, we aren't going anywhere, so Christ's message to you and the detractors is to move on, because the message you are sending is not being received.

By-by then.

happy trails nomad.

In His service
c

damon

06-25-2006, 07:28 PM

EZ,

Your post is dribble. I did not judge watchmen. I stated the correct view and reality of salvation.

nomad

damon

06-25-2006, 07:40 PM

Obviously, damon has never read the Bible. If damon had, damon wouldn't make such ridiculous statements as:

I thank Jesus that salvation is by God's grace and not our works.


It is obvious where watchmen stands on salvation. Salvation is a free, unearned gift from Jesus. Anyone who tries to earn their salvation in anyway, will have an eternity of regret.

DON'T BE WRONG ON SALVATION.

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 07:42 PM

ps. anti-

here's that scripture again, full thought so all can understand the true message that Christ was sharing.

Mat 7

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

remember that one

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

so, since this is home, we arent leaving, and since your message is not accepted, move on by Christ's words.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

cont

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 07:44 PM

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

few

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The SCN has proven themselves to those who study there. Their fruit is very good. They are not con artists, or beggars, or word twisters, or followers of tradition. The fruit is great actually, for it is the fruit of Truth.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Not all, for some teach evil from the pulpit, as the chapter teaches.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

So, they are prophecying in His name, casting out demons, good works done(which is not a sin)

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It was not that they had works, for we all have works, but that their 'works' were not good, but rather the opposite, works of iniquity. But we all have works.

Before the Millenium, Grace of God gets one into Heaven, but in the Millenium, the Day of the Lord, it will be ones works, if they weren't chosen by Grace before that Day (1000 years) which one will overcome by.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

The flood of lies is coming from Satan. Some will be taken away by these lies.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

}those evil scribes.......nomad wanderers....lol.

in His service
c
}

damon

06-25-2006, 07:45 PM

It is not anyones place to tell anyone to move on, as this is a public disscusion forum on cults.

anti

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 07:51 PM

It was Christ's place......

He taught us.....wipe the dust from your shoes and move on.

damon

06-25-2006, 07:52 PM

Act 16:30 and brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Jesus did not say we have to be right on every doctrine. To be saved one has to get salvation right.

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

nomad

damon

06-25-2006, 07:55 PM

It was Christ's place......

He taught us.....wipe the dust from your shoes and move on.

Then why are you still here?

nomad

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 08:04 PM

home....why are you still here......your just passing through

think about it, and follow the Lords words friend.

In His service
c

damon

06-25-2006, 08:15 PM

"Home", are you being possesive of a public forum?

Who says I am going anywhere. I think I may stay awhile.

I have thought about it and I will tell you just like anyone else. Salvation is a free gift. anyone who says different is teaching a doctrine of demons.

Sqauter

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 08:26 PM

CUTE TITLE.

Listen, it is of Grace until the Millenium, but after that, in that Lords day, it is not of Grace, but of Works....

A belief in a rapture before the 7th trump has distorted your views on the Word.

Since you are the invader here, and your message is not accepted, then Jesus Christ teaches to move on.....why do you disobey the Lord?

Rev 20 teaches that in the Millenium, it is by works that one will be judged by, and not Grace.

damon

06-25-2006, 08:31 PM

Since you are the invader here, and your message is not accepted, then Jesus Christ teaches to move on.....why do you disobey the Lord? 

You are nuts. how many times do I have to say this is a pulic forum. Do you understand public?

Invader}

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 08:37 PM

public forum yes, but the principles of the Word of God still apply, do they not?

Shake the dust and move on wanderer.

damon

06-25-2006, 08:44 PM

Let me clarify with chronology. There first was orthodox christinity and then came SC/AM. The "move on" verse was spoken to people who preach the word of God.

What we have here is the truth (orthodoxy) being taught, then the doctrines of satan being taught by AM, and then refuted.

You have convinced me I will stay

ezekiel_37

06-25-2006, 08:58 PM

perfect, maybe you will learn the truth then. as God does work in mysterious ways.

Which one of your rapture doctrines do you wanna prove to us, since you claim this. Go ahead, for this is what I feel is the true hatred behind your feelings for us (me).

Fire away.

And let my re-clarify chronology for you....

first Christ and what He taught.
Then division in the church and different denominations and different beliefs.
Then tolerance of unacceptable practices in the church.
Then a warning of Christ to the 7 churches of the world and how only 2 of them are acceptable in His eyes.....they teach the same thing....does your church teach this?

So, now we have a few select preachers who are trying to get the people back into the Word of God, and away from the mass religion that it has become, this pseudo fake form of Christiandom, (not all but most) 5/7ths or so.

So, I say stay, learn join in, but do so by way of personal experience and not by way of hearsay and innuendo, lies and malfacy. please use the Word as a reproof and not the traditions that you have been taught.

So, go ahead and lead us all in a study!
I'm looking forward to it.

Always in His service
c

david_munson

06-25-2006, 09:25 PM

Come on Zeke,
I see no hatred in Damon's posts.

I see that said alot but without any evidence.
To reject Am's teachings is not hate but it seems to be the fall back point.

What's up with that?

Dave

}

watchman_2

06-25-2006, 09:27 PM

damon,

You have demonstrated your ignorance with your quote:

It is obvious where watchmen stands on salvation. Salvation is a free, unearned gift from Jesus. Anyone who tries to earn their salvation in anyway, will have an eternity of regret.

DON'T BE WRONG ON SALVATION.

Salvation was paid for by the innocent blood of Christ! How dare you cheapen it by inferring that one's actions/false doctrines don't matter. The scriptures speak loudly that they do!

I never said that one earns salvation through works. So, stop the lies! The scriptures that I posted clearly state that one is in jeopardy of losing their salvation by their false doctrine.

You are just another pathetic example of a non-scholar, who thinks he can come here with hostile intent and persuade anyone of your drivel.

damon

06-25-2006, 09:42 PM

Obviously, damon has never read the Bible. If damon had, damon wouldn't make such ridiculous statements as:

I thank Jesus that salvation is by God's grace and not our works.

 You expect me to believe that this does not mean that you do not believe in salvation by works and correct doctrine?

You can say salvation is by grace all you want too but then you say all non SC'ers are kenites and it nullifies it.

I have watched you watcher, and each and everyone of you equate salvation with becoming a non kenite, not grace.

david_munson

06-25-2006, 09:44 PM

How does one loose that which he cannot gain on his own?
Did you earn your salvation?
No.
Did you buy it?
No.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

Jesus cannot loose any that the father has given Him.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Read your bible Watchman.
Dave

}

david_munson

06-26-2006, 01:03 AM

Points of Salvation;

1. Salvation is THE WORK OF GOD ALONE; and the work of God is DONE FOREVER (Eccles. 3:14).
2. Salvation is THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE; and eternal life is ETERNAL (Rom. 6:23).
3. Salvation is BY GRACE ALONE. Works have nothing to do with it, neither good nor bad. Sin could not keep God from bestowing his grace. And sin cannot compel God to withdraw his grace (Eph. 2:8-9).
4. THE COVENANT OF GRACE CANNOT BE BROKEN; and eternal security is one UNCONDITIONAL PROMISE of the covenant (Jer. 31:3; 31-34; 32:38-40).
5. THE PURPOSE OF GOD IN ELECTION MUST STAND; and that purpose could not stand if even one of the elect were to perish (Rom. 8:28-30; 9:11).
6. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CANNOT MISCARRY OR BE SHED IN VAIN. If one redeemed sinner should perish,for that sinner, the death of Christ would be a miscarriage, his blood would have been shed in vain (Isa.53:9-10).
7. THE SEAL OF THE SPIRIT CANNOT BE BROKEN (Eph. 4:30).
8. CHRIST CANNOT FAIL; and he would miserably fail in his appointed work if one whom he came to save were to perish (Isa. 42:4; Matt. 1:21; John 6:39).
9. The Lord our God is IMMUTABLE. He cannot change. And if one whom he loves were to become an object of his wrath in hell, he must cease to be God (Mal. 3:6).
10. THE JUSTICE OF GOD, once satisfied, CANNOT PUNISH ANY FOR WHOM ATONEMENT HAS BEEN MADE (Rom. 3:24-26).
11. GOD WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN TO HIS ELECT. Where sin is not imputed there is no danger of perdition (Rom.4:8).
12. FAITH, SALVATION, AND ETERNAL LIFE ARE THE GIFTS OF GOD. The gifts of God cannot be taken away (Rom.11:29).
13. CHRIST'S INTERCESSORY PRAYER MUST PREVAIL(John 17).
14. THE BODY OF CHRIST MUST BE COMPLETE; and it cannot be complete if even one member has perished (Eph. 1:23).
15. We are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD (I Pet. 1:5).
16. OUR LORD HAS PROMISED TO BRING ALL HIS ELECT TO GLORY; and he will do what he has promised (Eph. 5:25-27).

}

watchman_2

06-26-2006, 01:18 AM

damon,

You will never find a post of mine that states that one earns salvation thru works. I certainly do not believe this.

There you go with lies -- just like the other detractors. I have never stated that all non-SCers are Kenites.

Where do you get such nonsense -- from godchild?

watchman_2

06-26-2006, 01:46 AM

David,

You need to read your Bible. I have provided you the scriptures several times. Have you not choked on it yet with your phoney 'rapture' beliefs?

Here it is one more time.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Verse 21 is clear that one needs to do the will of God. Certainly, spreading antichrist's 'rapture' doctrine on the internet makes you a worker of iniquity, thereby qualifying you as one that Christ never knew.

You ask a philosophical question rhetorically; however, I will answer it since you failed to answer it properly.

How does one loose that which he cannot gain on his own?

First, your question is ill-conceived because one does earn the free gift by accepting it. Upon accepting the blessing, one can easily lose it in sin. It is sinful to spread false 'rapture' theory.

david_munson

06-26-2006, 02:05 AM

No credability Watchman,none what so ever.
I don't take you seriously.
It is sin to hate your brother or your enemy.
Hate is sin.

You want to obey only what you choose to obey.
That doesn't cut it either.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

And the most relevant verse for Watchman is;
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

How Watchman,how?

Dave
}

watchman_2

06-26-2006, 02:59 AM

David,

I don't expect to have credibility with you or the other non-objective detractors. I have backed up all of my positions with scripture. I have accurately portrayed you and the other detractors.

I don't hate you eventhough you are an enemy to God. I hate what you do and I hate your persistent ignorance.

damon

06-26-2006, 08:15 AM

First, your question is ill-conceived because one does earn the free gift by accepting it.

That statement is pure stupidity.

Upon accepting the blessing, one can easily lose it in sin.


1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder I laid a foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let each man take heed how he buildeth thereon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.


1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
}

david_munson

06-26-2006, 06:02 PM

I love Jesus and you call me an enemy of God.

I'll let that speak for itself.

Dave
}

watchman_2

06-26-2006, 10:29 PM

David,

You love the anti-Jesus -- you are a rapturist. So, go ahead and love that Jesus all that you want -- I'll stick to the true Jesus. You know the one that admonishes you rapturists.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

danispeachy

06-26-2006, 10:37 PM

As I said Watchman, there have been plenty of seeds planted. It is up to God to have them grow. They may or may not be deceived... we'll just have to wait and see.

Saying that one doesn't love Jesus just because their interpretation is flawed is very presumptuous.

I suggest you let it go. It's in Gods hands.

david_munson

06-26-2006, 10:44 PM

Watchman denies the Christ of the CROSS.
He is the Jesus I worship.

Watchman insinuates that Christ is not who He claimed to be.
Watchman is making statements that are heresy.

My Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
Who knows what Watchman's God is?

He makes it plain that it's not the Jesus who shed His Blood for all mankind.
The one I believe in.

Thanks again child for revealing yourself.

Dave
}

david_munson

06-26-2006, 10:52 PM

Watchman,

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I confess that Christ is come in the flesh.Watchman says that I worship the anti-Christ.
He denies the true Lord Jesus Christ.

At least we know where you're coming from now.

Accuser.

}

watchman_2

06-26-2006, 11:11 PM

Unfortunately for you David, you confuse the Christ that died on the cross for the antichrist -- you know -- the one that comes first promising to rapture you away.

Have a nice wedding to the antichrist and be sure to give the antichrist's baby good suck.

As for me I will stick to the true Christ -- the one that expects His bride to be faithful to Him until His return, instead of gone off whoring after the antichrist.

david_munson

06-26-2006, 11:47 PM

You're sick minded kid,really sick.
Hatefilled and spiteful accuser of the brethren.

You deny Christ constantly and claim that those who trust in Him are demonic,will give suck to Satan's offspring and are not saved.
You love to hate which is revealed in your posts almost daily.

You need to get to know Christ,not just know about Him.He who loves is of God for God is Love.You reveal none of this.No love at all.

Your ignorant of scripture and what you do know has been twisted way out of context.
Plus to add to all that sad condition,you just love to proclaim by inferance that only Sc'ers are saved.

Get a clue.
You go and worship your false messiah,the one who fills you with such hatred and envy.

I'll worship Jesus the Christ who died for my sins while you continue to deny Him as you are about to do again.
Good luck with that.

Godless one.

}

david_munson

06-26-2006, 11:54 PM

danispeachy,
he can't stop.He has a driving spirit manipulating him.
Yes that is right like it or not the truth is hard at times.

That is what I have been trying to show him and any one else that has eyes to see.

There is no distance in the Spirit.

Dave
}

watchman_2

06-27-2006, 12:20 AM

Since you cannot debate the scriptures David, you resort to lies -- just like godchild. Nice try -- but not persuasive.

In the debate of the 'rapture' theory, there is only right and wrong -- no middle ground exists. It has been proven to you [repeatedly] that any belief in a return of Christ before the 7th trump is unbiblical. Yet, you choose to ignore the fact that it has been proven to you.

You have failed to retract or apologize for your 6/23/05 post and you still support your statements therein. Just like the Pharisees, you try to show others how holy you are in a attempt to makeover yourself. I see right through your phoney efforts and peg you for the belligerent that you are. A reminder of your past and look at how you react.

Now, you have the audacity to state that you are part of the brethren. What a joke!

I have shown you the scriptures why you can never be my brother as long as you are a rapturist [not the doctrine of Christ]. If you want to be a brethren, lose the false doctrine and phoney christian makeover - demonstrate the humility due and owing to SCers.

david_munson

06-27-2006, 02:31 AM

I thank the Lord Jesus for all that He has done to obtain my salvation for me.

I pray that He will set you free from the error that you espouse.

I pray that you will learn the nature of Jesus Christ and begin to show it in your life.
I pray that you do not remain lost forever and will begin to see the truth instead of the error that you believe.

I pray that you learn what it means to Love others even if they disagree with you instead of resorting to the lieing and hatred that you are spreading.

I pray for you Watchman because your eternal soul was considered worth Christ coming to shed His blood for you.

God is good.
Taste and see.

Dave
}

watchman_2

06-27-2006, 02:44 AM

Save those prayers for yourself -- old blind one!

angie0401

06-27-2006, 02:55 AM

David,
Now you're guilty of what you've accused watchman and others of. YOU have decided that he is "lost" and doesn't know God.
watchman is MY brother in Christ Jesus and I will gladly claim him any time. You know nothing of his life or his relationship with Christ, yet you want to decide his salvation based on how he responds to those of you who come on here to tell us that WE are wrong? Use that same stick to measure Vivian and arron, why don't you?

WE don't go around telling every other group that they are wrong and doomed to hell. We are only here defending our beliefs from the lies and slander that is so prevalent on these threads.

I assure you that watchman DOES show love to those he considers his brethren. He is a warrior for truth that has a better grasp of Scripture than a dozen of the detractors combined.

You two obviously have a personality conflict and IMHO should just leave each other be. There have been wrongs done on both sides and in all likelihood you two will never get along. Why continue to butt heads? Is it fruitful? Does it help either of you? Does it help the people reading this forum? Does it help ANYONE? Is it edifying Christ and spreading the Good News?

NO NO NO.

david_munson

06-27-2006, 05:01 AM

With all due respect Angie,
I don't care to hear it.

I tried to put an end to it as you may have read but Watchman chose to continue with the insinuation against my salvation.

I suggested he forget my name and let it go but no,he chose not to.So don't lecture me on the subject.
He is getting a taste of his own medicine.Eccl.3

"I assure you that watchman DOES show love to those he considers his brethren."

What about those he doesn't?
What does it say in the Word about just loving those you choose to love?
That is not the way of the Lord and you know it.

I have been more than civil to Watchman but he doesn't care about that.He just keeps on with the nonsense of assigning me to the devil's tit.
Now that's Godly isn't it?
Why don't you take him to do like you want me to do with the others?
Do what you ask me to do.

Has he appologised to me for his unwarrented BS?
NO NO and NO.
Yet he expects me to appologise for believing Am teaches error.
Not on your life.

I backed off first but would he let it go?
No,because he does have a driving spirit whether you understand that or not.

Don't take my harshness as hatred or anger.
It isn't.
It is the responce he needs to have.
At least for the moment anyway.Eccl.3

As soon as he decides to let me be me,I'll let him be.Until then I will address his attitude directly with him and no one else.

He is the driver in this vehicle,not me.
It's in his court at this point.

Dave
}

plow_deep

06-27-2006, 08:53 AM

Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city.
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Also take no heed unto all words that are spoken; lest thou hear thy servant curse thee: For oftentimes also thine own heart knoweth that thou thyself likewise hast cursed others.

ezekiel_37

06-27-2006, 09:20 AM

is that a tennis court Dave?

that was toooooo easy!Touche

In His service
c

watchman_2

06-27-2006, 12:42 PM

David,

Your quote:

I have been more than civil to Watchman but he doesn't care about that.He just keeps on with the nonsense of assigning me to the devil's tit.
Now that's Godly isn't it? 

Please try to understand what I am saying to you. I did not assign you 'to' the devil's tit. Christ assisgned you 'as' the devil's tit due to your false rapture belief.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 

I'm sorry for you that you think that Christ's teachings are too ungodly for you.

In fact, Christ teaches the converse to the woes,

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 

So, if you rapturists think that you can hang on to your comfy security blanket [false] theology without consequence because you are 'saved', you have a rude awakening awaiting for you.

danispeachy

06-27-2006, 01:45 PM

David,

You think he hates you and others when really he loves you. If he didn't, he wouldn't be warning you. The rapture is not a matter of incorrect interpretation, it's a matter of refusing to believe the word of God. We're told plainly...
1Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If you get decieved and worship the beast, you risk hellfire. Watchman doesn't want to see that happen to you.

arron

06-27-2006, 01:55 PM

no christian will worship the beast for one thing we will be gone in the rapture, for another thing there is no room in me for the devil and GOD i cant have them both at the same time. the rapture will occur, it will not be of or by satan it will not be of the antichrist. GOD HIMSELF will come for us who are saved. the beliefs of sc are totaly incorrect. their adherenats will argue with a sign post and they call all who believe in the rapture as being unsaved, not in CHRIST and if one is not in CHRIST then they are out of CHRIST and there fore are not saved, not because they dont or do believe in the rapture.also hell does exsist NOW and will be the final destination of the sinner who refuses TO ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOUR not some one beileving in the rapture

watchman_2

06-27-2006, 02:27 PM

arron,

Hey hypocrite -- I am still waiting for your scripture, IN PLAIN ENGLISH, identifying that the church will be raptured.

llm

06-27-2006, 02:36 PM

And I'm still waiting for scriptural proof that Christ shortened the tribulation to 5 months.

preachers_daughter

06-27-2006, 03:49 PM

Why is it that all you SC followers make excuses for watchman? You know that he is wrong, yet you defend him, because he is your 'brother'. If he wasn't wrong, you wouldn't have to make excuses for his behavior, the way you do.

Angies' quote;

"I assure you that watchman DOES show love to those he considers his brethren".

Oh that's right. The Bible says to love only those that believe as you do. Love only those that agree with you. Love only those that are like you. I guess the verses that say love one another, love your enemies, love your neighbor... are just type-o's.

Excuses!

With his unthinking mind, he stated that damons' statement about salvation being by grace and not works, was ridiculous. That looks to me like he WAS making a mockery of the price that Christ paid for the sins of ALL. Go back and read it!

Once again, it is all about watchman.

Watchman, did you ever find you a church to attend?

I am still waiting for scripture that explains that satan was the tree in the garden.

david_munson

06-27-2006, 04:35 PM

Watchman,
a "phony makover effort" would not be consistant.
It would be impossible to maintain by ones own strength the illusion you purport to be the case.

Nice try though.
---
Danispeachy,
Have you read his posts or are you avoiding reading them?
Your "observation" is deluded.

What he has done is not Christ like.
Take some time to re-read them and like I said to Angie,with all due respect,
I don't care to here the excuses because I tried to back away peacefully and still he asserts that I am disengenous/unsaved and will "give suck to Satans offspring."
Bovine feces!

Cheap excuses have no merit in the face of the heinous things he posted.

Dave
}

ezekiel_37

06-27-2006, 04:45 PM

Preacher's Daughter

although my words may not mean anything to you, I will write them anyway....

Just as the 'Trinity' is not mentioned as such, but is IMPLIED, also is the tree of knowledge of good and evil thus related to Satan.

2 trees in the middle of the garden.
two choices.
one leads to life forever
one leads to sin and death.

The tree's fruit was to be desired.....
and pleasing to the eye......
not to mention 'touch' although we disagree on that. Can't really see why but....

God describes Himself as a great Fir Tree....
Man is described as trees....
why not the devil?

We learn the fate of Lucifer in Ez28. We also learn that he was in the Garden, and that he was so 'GOOD' at one time that God promoted him to the awsome position of protecting Cherub. Then he fell because of pride, fell so far that he is going to be destroyed forever......

So Satan/Lucifer/the Devil was both good and bad, and was in the Garden.....

In His service
c

angie0401

06-27-2006, 04:50 PM

preachers_daughter,
I've not seen you condemning Vivian's absolutely hateful, vile, unloving responses to EVERYONE who doesn't pat her on the back and say "Good job, warrior.".
watchman is concerned that you may be deceived. Vivian is concerned that she may be wrong.

Preachers_daughter, where do YOU go to church? Why not ask Vivian if she's found one. She can't and doesn't need one because she knows everything God needs her to know without listening to anyone else, right?

When you clean up YOUR house, you can make a comment about mine. Until then, I couldn't care less what you think of me or my brethren.

david_munson

06-27-2006, 04:53 PM

" Christ assigned you 'as' the devil's tit due to your false rapture belief."

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."
---
How can anyone get scripture so far out of context as to think that what Watchman uses to bolster his error is correct biblical interpretation?

His above verses that are used to insinuate that any one will be used as the devils tit is absurd at best.
These verses are in relation to the horror and suffering of the loss of children by their mothers.
That is the proper understanding in that case.
The text speaks plainly for itself.
There is no esoteric message hidden within.

Dave

}

godchild

06-27-2006, 05:03 PM

All right, zeke. You say satan was a tree (symbolized as, I assume. Am I correct?)
Do you agree the serpent was symbolic of satan also? Who did Eve talk to (symbolically speaking)? The tree or the serpent? Did the tree tempt and deceive her, or the serpent?

When God finished His creation, including trees, He said it was good. Do you not see that you suggest God planted evil in the Garden of Eden (which is symbolic of paradise)?

"The tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil".
How do you come to the conclusion that the knowledge of something becomes a tangible physical thing that can impregnate a homo sapien of the female gender? Let's leave the am followers (or some of them) teaching that satan (a symbolic tree or serpent) also had sex with Adam alone for now.

Did God curse the serpent or the tree?

david_munson

06-27-2006, 05:31 PM

To add one more thing to straighten out Watchmans erronious application of the verses he used.

"Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"

Notice "with child" and "give suck."

1. I cannot bare children since I am a man.
2.This verse gives referance to preganant and nursing woman.

So Watchman's application is seriouly in error.
Plain and simple.

Dave
}

david_munson

06-27-2006, 05:38 PM

Zeke,
I should have seen that coming,LOL.
Good one.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif
Yup,you got me.
Dave

}

preachers_daughter

06-27-2006, 05:46 PM

Ezekiel

Please do not think that your words mean nothing to me. I enjoy reading your posts.

The problem I have, with the interpretation of satan being the tree, is this.

Every time, in the Word, that 'something/someone' is compared to a tree it is always explained. The Word explains itself. Even though I think is is good to study what things mean in both Hebrew and Greek, one does not need to do this in order to see what is being referred to as a 'tree' or 'trees'. The Word explains itself.

Trinity is a word we use to describe God, who is three, yet one.
[like rapture is used to describe being caught-up]

Many verses throughout the Bible refer to God as being our heavenly Father.

We are told, in Luke, that Christ is conceived of the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:3,4 refers to the Holy Ghost and God [our heavenly Father] being one in the same.

Romans 8:9 refers to the Spirit of God and Christ being one in the same.

Galatians 4:6 tells us that the Spirit of Christ lives in us.

Romans 8:11 tells us that the same Spirit that raised Christ dwells in us.

Isaiah 9:6 refers to Christ as the everlasting Father.

Do you see how the Bible refers to all three being one. The 'Trinity' is not implied. The word fully EXPLAINS ITSELF. Nowhere does it explain that satan was the tree in the garden. It is just being 'implied' that he is. If he was the tree, and the Word explains itself, why would we have to assume that he is the tree.

I have seen chocolate cake that looked so 'pleasing to my eye' that I 'desired' it. I wanted to reach out and 'touch' it and 'eat' it. Does that make it something other than chocolate cake?

danispeachy

06-27-2006, 05:56 PM

David,
I may not agree with the way he presents himself at times but he knows that. We also disagree on points of scripture but you notice he has never treated me badly, Why? Because I'm not being rude and arrogant and spreading lies and flinging insults at him. I will not "go off" on him which is what you are suggesting I do. He has not lied about anything. He is not bearing false witness. He is teaching Gods word, Not for his benefit but for others.

"So Watchman's application is seriouly in error.
Plain and simple."

That's your intrepratation. You're taking the verses literally where we take them figuratively.

Woe unto those who "nurse" the deception the antichrist will cause.

So your allowed to call his interpretation error but he's not allowed to call yours an error?

Sorry but that doesn't fly... and neither will we.

:D

preachers_daughter

06-27-2006, 06:00 PM

angie

I going to assume that watchman is a 'big-boy', so why don't you let him defend his hate-filled words himself.

I didn't ask anyone where they went to church. I asked if he found one yet. Please read and respond to EXACTLY what I wrote.

godchild

06-27-2006, 06:31 PM

angie and any others who agree with her: I am very sorry that you do not trust the Lord when He says "This is my Beloved Son, Hear ye Him," and Jesus words when He said "I will send to you a comforter. I will never leave you nor forsake you," and the Word when it says Jesus is the Word, and Psalm 118:8 when King David said, "It is better to put trust in the Lord than in man." I am very sorry for anyone who does not have faith in the words God has given us.

I do not speak highly of myself. You sound like an envious, covetous person. My confidence is in the Lord, not myself. Without Him, I am nothing. I don't believe I have ever said differently. What is the saddest thing, however, is that you can have that same confidence I do, but your faith is lacking. He offers it freely, and if you are unwilling or unable to grasp it, more's the pity for you.

damon

06-27-2006, 06:41 PM

From GC

All right, zeke. You say satan was a tree (symbolized as, I assume. Am I correct?)
Do you agree the serpent was symbolic of satan also? Who did Eve talk to (symbolically speaking)? The tree or the serpent? Did the tree tempt and deceive her, or the serpent?

When God finished His creation, including trees, He said it was good. Do you not see that you suggest God planted evil in the Garden of Eden (which is symbolic of paradise)?

It is kinda funny how they apply literal and symbolic interpretaions inconsistantly. Like you pointed out that the serpent pregnated eve by watching her have sex with fruit. Or maybe the perverted snake had a food fetish and shared it with eve. Anyway, the snake had allotta fun "spoiling God's plan" regardless if he jojned in with eve and the fruit of the tree. Or maybe satan was the serpant and the fruit?????

It is also amazing how SC/AM can say the snake was physical and had physical sex with Eve but only procreated spiritually.

Also in regards to salvation. I believe in God's grace and his work of salvation so much that I would never tell even the worst heritic that his salvation was in jeprody, but it has come clear to me that while they say salvation by grace through faith, they do not apply that to other groups exept SC and maybe some other "nonkenite" groups. DON'T GET SALVATION WRONG.

They say 5/7 of the church is of satan and followers of antichrist. If that where true. That would mean that 2/7 of the church is Sc and similar churches that teach the same doctrine. There are few that teach what AM does that are not honest enough to not say they are haters and supremisist. The Synogouge of satan verses in Rev. are adresses to Christian churches yet in the context of their beliefs they try to use it as if it is telling us that there is false jews in the CHRISTIAN churches.

God said it was good when he finished, but SC/AM says it was not even all God's work.

NO CONSISTANCY WHAT SO EVER.

ezekiel_37

06-27-2006, 07:03 PM

that is presumptuous of you Godchild....

all of you post is very much so...

The tree and the serpent are symbolic of Satan....

The fruit the tree had was pleasing to her eyes, and she desired it. The tree had a big part to do with it.

It is much the same as the symbols for the first 4 seals in Rev. all pointing to Satan(the anti-Christ) and his system.

I find it difficult to understand why some can easily see Christ as the tree of Life, but cannot see the other choice, the one that leads to death and sin, as being from the devil...

It is more than implied, it is explained throughout scripture.

Can a tree or it's fruit be desired or pleasing to a womans eye?

So, they are both the Devil. The tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, and the serpent.

As for your 'planting evil' question....

God is the one calling the tree,....'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil', not me, although I happily agree with my Father.

They are both the Devil (the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil), the Adversary, not just one of them but both, symbolically, AND the devil is not a literal snake at all, but a 'shiney' supernatural fallen angel, a real being in our image as the rest of the angels are.

When he comes back to earth, he will not be a snake or a tree but a Fake Messiah...who we believe the people who think we are gathered before the 7th trump, are going to be rather easy pickings to be fooled by the anti-Christ.

No Christian wants to admit or accept this, as many of us have come from different beliefs on rapture, however, greek language skills suggest that we wait until the 7th trump, not a secret fly by allowing Christians to avoid the tribulation, the very time when God needs you most....the verses that you think prove rapture actually prove that they are the same event, the gathering of the Saints on earth with Christ and the dead in Christ accompanying Him, all as the Last Trumpet/ God's Trumpet/ 7th Trumpet Blast happens.

pre's/mid's.......kinda reminds me of army deserters.....wouldn't ya think?

May I ask Preachers Daughter, just who or what is the tree of knowledge of good and evil then (to you), if it is not Satan....Do you have an answer as to why many accept the tree of Life as Christ and not this other tree in the midst of the garden as the Adversary? The other choice, the one that leads to sin and death? I really see this rather plainly.

In His service
c

danispeachy

06-27-2006, 07:39 PM

"There are few that teach what AM does that are not honest enough to not say they are haters and supremacist"

Granted I am no expert on Supremacist groups, however from what I do know they do not apologize for their views and are quite vocal about it.

It seems to me that if we were racists and a part of some racist movement, we would have no problem with saying so...especially considering it's the internet. I mean my goodness what are you going to do about it? Give a verbal lashing?

We have said on several occasions that God created all the races, they are all equal, no one is better than another, we are not racists.

There would be no need for us to defend ourselves if we were racists because we wouldn't see anything wrong with it. Those hate group members are actually proud.

Furthermore, just like any other church there are of course members that would be considered unsavory. That is not the groups fault though.

The BTK Killer was an active member in his church, should we then assume that all their members are serial killers? Of Course Not!

How many Priest abuse scandals have come into the headlines? Does that mean they are all pedophiles? Of Course not.

We (As in SCN) are not affiliated with any hate groups. Matter of fact, there is ill will against Pastor Murray by the hate groups because he doesn't preach hate and superiority, He preaches love and equality.

Presuming that you know what is in our hearts is putting yourself on quite a pedestal, one that is reserved for God only. I would strongly suggest you leave the judgment of our hearts to God. He certainly knows you're way off base on mine.

damon

06-27-2006, 07:41 PM

Is the fruit also Satan? Ya'll almost have it right.

Gen 3:5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is, knowledge of good and evil.

The temptation of eve here was not to have sex with the snake or the tree.

The temptation was to deny God and thus become her own god."then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil".

Satan did not say "If you eat of this fruit, surely you will not die. but you will give birth to my child and you shall mother twins"

No, he said "if you eat of this fruit you will know good and evil (not give birth to good and evil) and that will make you like god.

To follow God or be your own god is the temptation of all men.

Those that chose to be their own god (which includes those christians that work for their salvation) are the tares, goats, and the children of darkness or children of Satan. Children of satan do what lucifer did, they deny God and try to be god themselfs apart from God.

Their is not battle of DNA going on. It is a spiritual battle.

Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

DON'T GET SALVATION WRONG TOO.

danispeachy

06-27-2006, 07:52 PM

"The Synogouge of satan verses in Rev. are adresses to Christian churches yet in the context of their beliefs they try to use it as if it is telling us that there is false jews in the CHRISTIAN churches."

I'm not sure how you get that... the letters are addressed to Christian churches yes. Saying the members recognized those who say they are Jews but are not.

regardless if you subscribe to the SS doctrine or not... I don't see how anyone can logically conclude that. I'm certainly unfamiliar with any SCN student claiming it.

david_munson

06-27-2006, 08:18 PM

danispeachy,
when scripture is clear,there is no need for interpreting and scripture is clear here.

Women with children,pregnant and nursing.
Anything beyond that is adding to the scriptures.
It is clearly not figurative but is indicative of literal application as the full context indicates.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Now pay close attention to this next verse in compliance with the whole text.

:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

It is in the literal sense which is backed up by the full context of these verses.

Dave
}

Literal affliction not figurative.

damon

06-27-2006, 08:22 PM

God says he knows who those are. He does not say the people of that church knows who they are. Who's works doe he say he knows. The church. It is the people in the church that are pretending to be spiritual jews (chritians) and he knows their works.

These verses do not in anyway give a possibility of "these churches know who the false jews are"

Rev 2:9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works (behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

david_munson

06-27-2006, 08:26 PM

Danis,
"Woe unto those who "nurse" the deception the antichrist will cause."

Where does it say this?
You are adding that which is not there.

Dave
}

danispeachy

06-27-2006, 09:31 PM

When I quote scripture, I give a book and verse.

That was what one could call "reiterating" a belief.

As I stated earlier... I disagree with your interpretation. As you stated you disagree with mine.

Are you under the impression that you will convert us to your interpretation?

godchild

06-27-2006, 09:34 PM

I don't have time today to answer every question to me, but I would like to remark on this:
"Matter of fact, there is ill will against Pastor Murray by the hate groups because he doesn't preach hate and superiority, He preaches love and equality."
I've been to some of their websites and they say they no longer agree with murray because he once rejected blacks and now allows them in his passover meetings. The man who said this says he knows am personally.

Mormons were the same way until they saw that so many rejected mormonism because of their doctrine of refusing the priesthood to blacks, their prophet had 'a new revelation'.

Why don't we ever hear from black am/scer's here on the sc threads? I've read quite a bit from the 'fig tree' and have never heard anyone there say they are black either. Coincidence, maybe.

danispeachy

06-27-2006, 10:09 PM

So Pastor Murray is rejected by hate groups for accepting other races... Thank you for proving my point.

"Why don't we ever hear from black am/scer's here on the sc threads?"

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif You have... you just don't know it http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

damon

06-27-2006, 10:13 PM

You missed the point. The hate groups loved AM at one point because they believed he did exclude the black race.

ezekiel_37

06-27-2006, 10:29 PM

do you personally know that or are you repeating hearsay? Remember that we all must answer for our actions and what we teach others, so you better be sure that u are not bearing false witness.

I have only ever heard Mr Murray call ALL races 100% equal. Mr Murray goes out of his way sometimes to explain FULLY the error that many 'southern' churches teach on the origin of the black race.

No, alla re equal and that is all Mr Murray has taught since I have been listening, and that is not hearsay but reality....

In His service
c

ezekiel_37

06-27-2006, 10:37 PM

it is amazing what some people wanna here and what is actually said.

We can say we are not racists, prove it in our words, and then be accused of being racist by some of the most hatefull people around. It is mindboggling, and I actually think that it is on purpose and an attack from you know who.

Sometimes, I wonder....

why the selective memories or lack of ability to remember all our beliefs and why the constant MIS representation of our theology.

WE ARE NOT ASHAMED OF WHAT WE BELIEVE. WE DO NOT NEED TO LIE OR CHEAT ANYONE.

EITHER YOU BELIEVE WHAT WE SAY OR YOU DO NOT.
THERE IS NO DECEPTION, BUT BY THOSE OPPOSED...

In His service
c

(Message edited by ezekiel_37 on June 27, 2006)

david_munson

06-27-2006, 11:02 PM

Danis,
that wasn't an interpretation,it was literal text in context with the rest of the chapter.

I don't expect to convert you to anything.
I'm just pointing out a specific error in understanding these verses.

Plain text that explains itself needs no other explanation.

Dave
}

danispeachy

06-28-2006, 12:24 AM

No you & Vivian missed the point.

I’ll reiterate... Hate groups, dislike Pastor Murray for accepting other races.

Let's say at 1 point in time PM was a racist. The oldest student I know has been with him for over 15 years and has only ever heard Pastor Murray say that God created all the races and loves them equally and that the Kenites are included in that. That is hardly a racist belief. We can all agree that all anyone needs to do is love and believe and follow our savior Jesus Christ to receive salvation. If Pastor Murray was a racist so long ago then he has obviously changed and repented. So then what’s the problem? Shouldn’t it matter who he is as a Christian now? People do change. How many people do you know have grown with the Lord? I know many. I myself have. So then what's the problem? Certainly one should forgive and forget and take a person as they are now as a Christian, not who they were. Besides, I have asked people (so many people) to bring me hard evidence that Pastor Murray and or Shepherds Chapel are affiliated with a racist organization. I admit if I had hard evidence I would rethink things. No evidence has been brought forward. It is all heresy and not even creditable heresy at that. I would certainly be disappointed to find out PM is affiliated with a racist organization. I would be downright angry with him. I really have no reason to think he is a racist. The message PM gives out, all I’ve ever heard, are messages of Love, so then What’s The Problem? Seriously, bring me proof. Don’t give me that …well if you think this, so then you must think that … give me proof. The mans on video and tape, and the internet… surely if he’s preaching hate, it’s been caught somewhere. If you want you can email me privately, let me know.

Otherwise then well Basically - shut up about it. LOL

I mean come on. Enough is enough and too much is nasty. There is no evidence that he nor any of us have been preaching supremacy or race oppression. There is evidence that we have been preaching equality and love. As for individual students who may be racist… well we can’t prevent that if their not hearing the message clearly. Their ignorance is their ignorance and they will be held accountable. There’s unsavory characters everywhere.

End of subject.

:D ani

danispeachy

06-28-2006, 12:49 AM

I'll be steadfast and prepared to show myself approved during the time of tribulation (I do think it will happen in my life time, but hey if it doesn't that's cool too). He has told us all things. It will be a horrible time, but GOD in his infinate wisdom and grace shortened the days and has promised to be with me, so I'll be just fine, I will overcome, I may even have to die for my faith. It's ok, because my eternal soul belongs to the FATHER. There is nothing to fear for the Lord is with me.

Are you prepared? Ya know just in case ;)

:D ani

danispeachy

06-28-2006, 12:53 AM

Ohh yea... Right on Zeke!
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

:D ani

damon

06-28-2006, 01:17 AM

Ya'll claim humanity is 2 groups of people. Those fathered by Adam and those father by Satan. It does'nt get any more racist than that.

By the assertion of the ss doctrine, there are humans and human/satan hybrids. And since ya'll are not consistant with your application, ya'll say all that don't agree with SC/AM doctrines are spiritual kenites. How handy.

Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.

God made the kenites. Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife. And she conceived and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from Jehovah. NOT SATAN.

danispeachy

06-28-2006, 01:23 AM

Your above post is nonsense.

watchman_2

06-28-2006, 03:58 AM

llm,

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 

Of coures, 'those days' is referring to the return of Christ.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


So, we know the tribulation as presented in Matt. 24 and Mark 13 are shortened. They were originally set by the prophet Daniel.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

I don't believe that you dispute that the one week period is representative of 7 years, so I won't document this fact. The time of the first half of this 7 year tribulation is confirmed in Rev. 13.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 

Ezekiel_37 provided you information regarding the time of the locusts. For your confirmation as to the time the tribulation is shortened to please review the Rev. 9.

Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.


This establishes the time of the fifth trump, with the one world order as established in Rev. 13 run by the fallen angels.

The antichrists appearance from the bottomless pit does not occur until the 6th trump as set forth in Rev. 9 and Rev. 13. The time frame for the antichrist's reign is not specified in Rev. 9.

If we knew the time of the antichrist's rule, then we could know the time of Christ's return by adding that time to the time of the locusts [5 months]. Well, no one knows the time of Christ's return except God himself.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 

So, we are left conjecturalizing as to the total time that Satan's tribulation will be. My thought is that, since the first half consisting of 42 months was shortened to 5 months, then the second half of Satan's tribulation may be shortened to the same time, thereby making it a total of about 10 months. No man knows the exact time.

watchman_2

06-28-2006, 04:18 AM

David,

You have not repented or apologized for your 6/23/05. Just like sin -- it remains on the books until it is repented for.

So, yes, absent repentance/apology for your 6/23/05 post, your 'so-called' growth the past year is nothing more than a phoney makeover effort.

I have accorded you many opportunities for you to actually demonstrate that you are a Christian, rather than declare it along with a bunch of false theology, by apologizing for you uncalled for attack in your 6/23/05 and asking all SCers to forgive you.

Until you do this, you are nothing more than that person who posted those hate-filled comments.

(Message edited by Watchman 2 on June 27, 2006)

watchman_2

06-28-2006, 04:56 AM

David,

Your quote:

These verses [Matt. 24:19, Mark 13:17, Luke 21:23] are in relation to the horror and suffering of the loss of children by their mothers.
That is the proper understanding in that case.
The text speaks plainly for itself.
There is no esoteric message hidden within.

Where in the world are you learning such drivel -- don't answer, I don't want to know. How can you square your warped theology with the directive God gave to Noah and his offspring.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 

Why in the world would God punish women with babies at some unspecified time that the predicted events take place? Don't answer that one either.

Your position and Bible interpretation [again] is ridiculous. What you just inferred is that God is completely unfair.

If you did your homework for a change instead of issuing such foolish positions, you would have looked up the definition of the terminology 'with child' to find out the correct use.

G1064
&#947;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#769;&#961;
gaste&#772;r
gas-tare'
Of uncertain derivation; the stomach; by analogy the matrix; figuratively a gourmand: - belly, + with child, womb.

Lo and behold, we can see that it has only a figurative meaning. Hence, your literal interpretation cannot possibly be correct.

Your theology has been proved false again. Can I get an "Amen brother" from you finally??

watchman_2

06-28-2006, 05:21 AM

Damon,

How did Eve get herself pregnant by the time of Gen. 3:14-16 then, since Adam did not have sex with her until Gen. 4:1??

This question has stumped all of your fellow detractors here. Maybe, you can do better with it.

angie0401

06-28-2006, 05:40 AM

Vivian,
I assure you that I believe every word Jesus Christ spoke and that He lives within my heart. He is the love of my life and I love him with every fiber of my being.
You can call me whatever makes you feel better about yourself, you can accuse me, you can do whatever you like, but you nor anyone else can EVER take that relationship with my Lord from me. And THAT gives me the peace beyond understanding that is required to deal with a few people on this forum.

Be safe on your rafting trip.

arron

06-28-2006, 02:14 PM

i do PRAISE AND THANK GOD for the fact that i am saved and ready to go in the rapture, i as a christian do not have to worry about being decieved by the antichrist for CHRIST dwells in my heart and soul. i am saved by faith in THE BLOOD OF JESUS i live right now because i am saved and not to be saved or to stay saved, GOD saved me and HE also keeps me saved.

yaakov2

06-28-2006, 03:47 PM

Watchman

How did Eve get herself pregnant by the time of Gen. 3:14-16 then, since Adam did not have sex with her until Gen. 4:1??

FYI, according to the original Hebrew text, the verb form of “knew” at Gen 4:1 means that the conception and birth took place prior to making their mistakes and leaving the Garden.

godchild

06-28-2006, 05:02 PM

angie, Continue to trust in Him, not in man, who can deceive, even if their intent is good, they have been shown to insert their own preconceived notions into them. Thank you for your kind words. My son-in-law captains his boat, I know we will be safe. I hope you all have a safe weekend too.

To the other responders: Of course, people can change, praise God, it is His Work and desire for us. But repentance includes not denying, not lying about it. Those who say they have known murray for however many years is also considered hearsay, isn't it? zeke, you said you have been studying with am for 2 years. Must be 2 1/2 now. How do you know what he preached up to 50 years ago? You accept what he and his associates say about him, but the minute anyone else does it is called hearsay. Can't you see the one-sided judgment this is? That man I spoke of didn't speak as if am was his enemy. The main point, however, is he is still teaching the same false doctrines, whether he includes other races or not.

david_munson

06-28-2006, 06:04 PM

Watchman,
me thinks you are deluded in your thinking.
You want me to be a hypocrit by denying I disagree with Am's false teachings.

You should be repenting for your hateful attitude.

If I reposted all the crap you have spewed at me and some others,I'd be posting for months.

AM is wrong and teaches error.
I believe that,why would I bow to some man?

All SC'ers huh?
Do you actually read what I post or just jump to conclusions with that one year old post?
Ya'll got tunnel vision boy.

Come on kid,get a clue please.

"Why in the world would God punish women with babies at some unspecified time that the predicted events take place? Don't answer that one either."
---
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

I guess you either missed this or choose to avoid it.
Is that why you didn't want me to answer,because you're in error?

}

llm

06-28-2006, 06:42 PM

"then the second half of Satan's tribulation may be shortened to the same time, thereby making it a total of about 10 months. No man knows the exact time."

Watchman,

Wow! I haven't heard that before(10 months) as opposed to the SC teaching of two 2 1/2 month periods. You better notify the Chapel of the change to the pillar teaching!

preachers_daughter

06-28-2006, 09:15 PM

Ezekiel

Sorry I have did not answer you before now. I was in NY for a few days, popped in here when I got home, then went to out of town again.

As to your question about the tree of knowledge. I believe it was a tree, as I have stated before. I do not believe it had 'magical' powers, and I have NEVER referred to it as an apple tree. I believe it was just a tree. A tree that God said 'not to touch'. The knowledge that would be gained from eating the fruit of this tree was not 'in the tree'. It was in the desire to be like God and the disobedience of Adam and Eve. No 'magical fruit'.

As far as others believing that Christ is the tree of life, that is in the garden; I do not know why they believe this. I do not.

watchman_2

06-29-2006, 03:41 AM

At least preachers_daughter is consistent with her argument, eventhough she is wrong. One can discuss the topic with someone that has a logical argument.

The others will argue that the tree of life is Christ, but, will renounce that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is anything but a fruit tree. With such flip-flop logic, it is impossible discussing the topic with these people.

(Message edited by Watchman 2 on June 28, 2006)

watchman_2

06-29-2006, 03:55 AM

David Munson [devil's tit],

You said that the word 'child' was literal in Matt. 24:19. I proved to you that it was figurative only.

I thought that deserved an 'amen brother' from you. It wouldn't be hypocritical of you to issue an amen in this case. For you to not give up the 'amen brother' is just further evidence how disingenuous you are.

watchman_2

06-29-2006, 04:10 AM

yaakov2,

Your quote:

FYI, according to the original Hebrew text, the verb form of “knew” at Gen 4:1 means that the conception and birth took place prior to making their mistakes and leaving the Garden.

May I inquire as to the source material that you are relying upon for that translation?

I primarily use the Strong's Concordance, which provides the following definition for 'knew':

H3045
&#1497;&#1491;&#1506;
ya&#770;da&#8219;
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.

Under Strong's definition, sex would be a proper translation for 'knew'. Nothing therein the definition that suggests when the sex took place.

Thy polysyndenton use of the word 'And' that starts Gen. 4:1 means that it is a separate and new thought/presentation. In other words, it is the next sequential event after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden.

I see nothing in Gen. 4 that remotely suggests that it was a partial replay of Gen. 3. If you have some proof otherwise,please let me know.

watchman_2

06-29-2006, 04:15 AM

llm,

PM teaches that it will be 5 months plus some time -- just as I have described it. As I stated, the time of antichrist's reign is not specified and no man knows the time.

One might try to analyze the word 'time' as used in the Book of Revelation to attempt to determine the approximate time. One might also look at Noah's boat trip for a hint as well.

However, no matter how we speculate as to this time, no man knows the time of the Lord's return.

david_munson

06-29-2006, 04:17 AM

How very manipulative of you Watchman.
Not that I'm surprised.

You poved nothing at all except that you ignore reading the full definition.

Heres one for ya little one.

hrh hareh haw-reh'

or hariy (Hosea 14:1) {haw-ree'; from 2029; pregnant:--(be, woman) with child, conceive, X great.

Or two,
hrh harah haw-raw'

a primitive root; to be (or become) pregnant, conceive (literally or figuratively):--been, be with child, conceive, progenitor.

ecw echo ekh'-o or scheo skheh'-o; (alternate form, used in certain tenses only)

a primary verb; to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession; ability, contiuity, relation, or condition):--be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can(+ -not), X conceive, count, diseased, do + eat, + enjoy, + fear, following, have, hold, keep, + lack, + go to law, lie, + must needs, + of necessity, + need, next, + recover, + reign, + rest, + return, X sick, take for, + tremble, + uncircumcised, use.

Or three,
tiktw tikto tik'-to

a strengthened form of a primary teko tek'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literally or figuratively:--bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.
---
Don't forget to "not" love your neighbor.
Elitist Watchman.

}}

watchman_2

06-29-2006, 04:47 AM

Nice try David -- did you go to godchild's school of interpretation?

The New Testament was written in Greek -- you posted from the Hebrew dictionary.

Aren't you feeling the fool about now!

llm

06-29-2006, 02:35 PM

Arnold teaches that the 7 year tribulation was shortened to 5 months. 2 2/1/2 month periods. Ask him.

llm

06-29-2006, 02:37 PM

Then he says the witnesses will be killed, and 3 1/2 dats later is when he conjectures that Christ will come.

david_munson

06-29-2006, 05:36 PM

Watchman,
the Word of God does not contradict itself.
Which is what you are infering it does.
So,
hrh harah haw-raw'
a primitive root; to be (or become) pregnant, conceive (literally or figuratively):--been, be with child, conceive, progenitor.

No I am not feeling the fool but when I read your twisting of scripture then I'm reading the foolishness that you post.

Thanks for reafirming your lack of proper understanding.I guess anything goes as long as it conforms to your liking.

}

angie0401

06-29-2006, 06:06 PM

David,
You know as well as I do that it is improper and incorrect to substitute the Hebrew definition of the English word "pregnant" for what should have been the Greek definition of the English phrase "with child".

david_munson

06-29-2006, 06:13 PM

As I said before,
God's Word does not contradict itself.

}

david_munson

06-29-2006, 06:17 PM

We use the whole Bible to compare scripture to scripture like the bereans did (using the Hebrew text) with Paul's teachings.

The Greek doesn't invalidate the Hebrew,it confirms it.

Dave
}

yaakov2

06-29-2006, 06:53 PM

Hello watchman

My source is Rashi's interpretations from the Tanakh on the Chabad website.

Strong's is a christian reference book.

No reason for the meanings to be the same, we have two different religions. That verse presents no difficulties in Judaism.

abiyah

06-29-2006, 08:42 PM

Good Afternoon and Peace unto you all;

The very first post of this thread caught my attention, and I'd simply like to comment on a few things which were said. : )

Aaron WROTE:
------------------------------------------------
" i hear him on t.v. arnold murray nor his sons will ever answer a question. they will always go round about and come back and NEVER answer the question. "
-------------------------------------------------

Aaron, I mean not to offend, so with all due respect sir... you do lie, this above stated quote is an outright lie ! Any wise person would simply listen to the The Shepherd's Chapel Bible Study for themselves and then they will know for sure that the last 15 minutes of each Bible Study is the ' Question & Answer ' segment; With the exception of one week of each the month were its a full Biblical Sermon. I myself can testify of the ' Question & Answer' segmant, as when I first began doing Bible Studies ALONG WITH The Shepherd's Chapel, I myself drafted a detailed letter with my question to The Shepherd's Chapel WHICH WAS INDEED answered on the air, and God knows that is true !

Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" they have many odd beliefs. such as serpent seed doctrine and that we had a life with GOD before we were born. "
-------------------------------------------------

You call The LORD's Word... odd beliefs ? DANGEROUS ! Very dangerous thing to do brother, for The Shepherd's Chapel is a BIBLE STUDY, a STUDY of The WORD OF GOD. Here..... an example.

Thus SAITH THE LORD your God Aaron !

Jeremiah 1:5
" BEFORE I formed thee in the belly I KNEW thee; and BEFORE thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. "

Aaron.. you tell me then..... where were you BEFORE you were in your mother's womb ? Who created your very soul ? When God said let us make ' man' in OUR image.... who was He speaking to ? WHO put your soul into your flesh body ?, THE LORD your GOD did ! [ Ezekiel 18:4 ] You were with God Aaron BEFORE you were in your mother's belly just like Jeremiah, and when you die the flesh death, your flesh shall return to dust, BUT your spirit, your soul SHALL RETURN to THE LORD, your God [ Ecclesiates 12:7 ], RETURN from which it came. And concerning the tares, ot the serpent seed as you so call them... HAVE ye NOT READ The Parable of The Tares ? [ Matthew 13:38-39]. Careful what you say regarding God's Word Aaron. Now the question for you is... do you believe God's Word ?

Abiyah

david_munson

06-29-2006, 09:36 PM

Hi Abiyah,
"Jeremiah 1:5 BEFORE I formed thee in the belly I KNEW thee; and BEFORE thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. "
This speaks of God's omniscience.

God being omniscient would know in advance who will be born as well as events that are yet to take place.
He inhabits the past,present and future all at the same time.
(something way beyond our limited comprehention)

}}}

david_munson

06-29-2006, 09:45 PM

In congunction with that is this verse;
"Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear."

God is omniscient as well as omnipresent and omnipitent.

Dave
}

ezekiel_37

06-30-2006, 12:23 AM

hi david,

I fail to see what bringing up the hebrew definitions for the different words implying pregnancy.

What has this to do with the text that is in question?

But you are right that God's Word does not contradict itself, in the original languages.

It can in english though.

My point is, why did you bring up those hebrew definitions? What is that to prove against what watchman has stated?

All I read was definitions....

no explanation of your position, or why you felt it necessary to teach those definitions to contradict the greek. Since they do not contradict, what is the point of this line of thought?

and about what you wrote above to Abiyah, (hi abiyah),

God does not want robots or automatons. he may know the outcome, and our hearts, and read our minds, but do you really think that God would have us go through all this if He already knew what each one of us are going to do? If He did, then He could simply speak and ALL would be perfect now. Since God gave us free will, the free will to choose Him or the world (Satan). That is the whole point of this flesh existence, to choose God over the Adversary.

if we (humanity) did not have free will, then what you said may make more sense.

Did you have a chance to look at the Jer4 flood yet?

in His service
c

ezekiel_37

06-30-2006, 12:26 AM

Those verses are not in conjunction the way you think.....but they are related to the elect.

One speaks of God knowing us before we were made flesh, and the other speaks of God's readiness to answer the prayers of those elect when they need Him. The Isaiah quote is in my opinion going to be fulfilled during the Millenium.

in His service
c

david_munson

06-30-2006, 12:50 AM

Zeke,
the text in question has to do with a woman or more exactly women being pregnant during a time of intense duress and trouble.
---
The verse I brought up to show Abiyah was intended to show that God knows the past present and future or else He is not God.

Omniscient-all powerful
Omnipresent-every where present (time and space)
Omnipotent-all powerful

Even though we have free will and we do,He knows every thing about us all at once past,present and future,

Dave
}

ezekiel_37

06-30-2006, 01:27 AM

do you agree that we are supposed to be spiritual virgins, the 144,000 as our example?

in His service
c

ezekiel_37

06-30-2006, 01:28 AM

also, do you agree that 'some' of us are to wed Christ?

in His service
c

watchman_2

06-30-2006, 03:04 AM

llm,

I am a regular SC viewer since late 1995. I have never heard the 2 x 2 1/2 month thing. SC has always taught the 5 month time of the locust, plus a 'short time' for the reign of the antichrist.

You may have rec'd the 2 x 2 1/2 month thing from a student's interpretation.

I believe that, if you check out what I posted regarding this subject, you will find that I accurately portrayed it.

watchman_2

06-30-2006, 03:07 AM

David,

Now you are really showing some real ignorance [which is more than your normal ignorance] when you try to use the Hebrew language to validate a Greek word definition.

Nonsense logic.

david_munson

06-30-2006, 03:11 AM

God bless you Watchaman.

}

david_munson

06-30-2006, 03:14 AM

God's Word is from Genesis to Revelation.
One complete book revealing Jesus Christ throughout.
The whole council of God.
God bless you Watchman.

}

watchman_2

06-30-2006, 03:24 AM

yaakov2,

Thanks for your reference. The scriptural interpretation from your reference is interesting. Of course, I have no knowledge or opinion of the veracity of your reference.

If true, this reference interpretation tends to support some of the detractors' position that Gen. 4:1 was describing an act that took place sometime in Gen. 3. This would explain how Eve was pregnant by the time of Gen. 3:14-16 by Adam instead of by Satan.

On the other hand, we know that the Kenites pretend that they are Jews [to hide their true identity] and had pervaded the heirarchy of Jewish society by the time of Christ, and have continued to do this today.

So, there certainly is motivation for the Kenites to provide such an interpretation in Jewish Hebrew dictionaries. If the interpretaion of 'knew' is a current occurrence, then the Jew is left with the same dilemma as the SC detractors in that an explanation as to who knocked up Eve by Gen. 3:14-16 is required.

Removing Adam from the equation only leaves Satan. Hence, the establishment of the Kenites is made and their cover is blown.

So, how does your Hebrew resource explain away the fact that Cain is not in Adam's geneology?

yaakov2

06-30-2006, 02:34 PM

watchman_2

On the other hand, we know that the Kenites pretend that they are Jews [to hide their true identity] and had pervaded the heirarchy of Jewish society by the time of Christ, and have continued to do this today.

This “knowledge” displays a complete ignorance of history and Judaism.

If the interpretaion of 'knew' is a current occurrence…

It isn’t. You said “I have no knowledge or opinion of the veracity of your reference and yet the very next words you type are to discount the veracity of the Jewish reference.

So, how does your Hebrew resource explain away the fact that Cain is not in Adam's geneology?

Hmm. You are inserting your word usage into my bible and then asking me to support a nonsensical interpretation. Isn’t this called a “strawman”?

abiyah

06-30-2006, 03:29 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Morning to you all !

Peace be upon you; I pray that all is real, real well with each of you. David..... the Truth that I was trying to bring forth was with regards to Aaron's original starting thread post. I found it very disturbing that a Christian brother would call some of the Truths of our Father's Word to be " odd beliefs ". So what I was trying to help Aaron with is that comment he had made in saying " we had life with God before we were born ". Unforetunately Aaron is ignorant [ And I say so with all due respect ] of God's Word. This is why I had quoted Jeremiah 1:5.

Now your response somewhat takes away from that which I'm trying to help Aaron with. And yes indeed David, God's has infinite awareness, understanding, and insight, He is all Wisdom, He indeed is all knowing, and yes, yes, yes He is Almighty, ALL Power. Yet that is not what I was discussing here with Aaron. So THEN THINK ! What Truth am I TRYING to bring to the forefront of our brother Aaron's heart/mind ?

Aaron's above stated comment in which opened this thread, basically denies that we were with God BEFORE we were born into our flesh bodies, and when he denies this he denies the Truth of our Heavenly Father's Word, and he calls God's Truth, and those which believe.. " odd beliefs " this I find to be very disturbing. It is WRITTEN... that God KNEW Jeremiah BEFORE he was in his mother's womb.. before he was conceived .. God KNEW Jeremiah, just as He knows ALL of His children. The soul is present at conception. Before you are conceived in the flesh you are WITH your REAL Father, your closest of Kin. It is He that placed your soul into the flesh body. This is how He knows you, and this is how He knew that He could trust Jeremiah and ordain and santify him a prophet, because he KNEW Jeremiah, He KNOWS Jeremiah.

It IS WRITTEN

John 3:3
" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see The kingdom of God. "

This word ' again ' on the Greek is ' Anothen '
and it means from above; from a higher place; of things which come from Heaven or God.

Our Lord told you that to SEE The Kingdom of God, you MUST be born from above, meaning you must be born into this flesh age, and decide whether you will choose God or satan. It is written in The Book of Job 38:7, that at one time... BEFORE this flesh age that all of God's children lived in peace and joy. ALL must pass through this earth age, this world age, this flesh age, [age = time] and decide whether we choose life or death, the choice is yours/ours. And again, God had told Rebecca, BEFORE she ever bare Jacob and Esau that the older would serve the younger, now usually its the other way around, and why was this ? Because God loved Jacob, but hated Esau. So then how could God hate a sweet lil' unborn baby ? Because he already KNEW Esau from BEFORE... and apparently God was not so pleased with him EVEN before he was born from above. [ Malachi 1:1 -4 & Romans 9:10 - 14 ], BEFORE his soul was placed into the flesh body. So you see .... we were with God, we came from God, and ALL SHALL return to God to be Judged, and it shall be those that do love, that do revere, and do KEEP and DO His Commandments will be again with God, their REAL Father, eternally, God is There. God WILL not force any of His children to love Him, they must do that on their own. We were WITH God before this flesh world age, and THIS IS The Truth that I was TRYING to edify Aaron with.

Abiyah

watchman_2

06-30-2006, 10:54 PM

yaakov2,

So, I take it that your branch of Judaism rejects that Kenites exist, that they pretend they are Jews, that they were in charge of the religion at the time of Christ, that they were responsible for having Christ crucified, and that they still pretend to be Jews today.

david_munson

06-30-2006, 10:58 PM

Ok Abiyah,
but I don't believe that God was saying that we where with Him before our natural birth and that the new birth is the quickening of our dead spirit by the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit ie the new birth. (born from above)

The verse you mention seems to be God letting Job know that he is not as knowledgeable as he might have thought.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Born from above yes,I agree to that but not quite the same as you might.

When Jesus was talking with Nicodemus about being born from above,He said that in order for that to happen,we must first be born,then we can receive the new life from the Spirit of God being placed within us (the new man referred to in Colossians 3) and the entrance of the Spirit which is mentioned in Rev.3:20.
(the knock at the door)
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
---
Seems that we agree and disagree on many points.
Which I think you will find is common even amoung those within the same group,which ever group that may be.

Though I do disagree with much of what you believe,I do find it very interesting.

I think I'll call you a name now.
How about friend?
Gotcha!

LOL,I am addicted to humor to say the least.

Thank you for talking with me and have a great evening my friend.

In Christ,
Dave

}

plow_deep

07-01-2006, 02:01 AM

Watchman,

Judaism and Christianity mix like oil and water.

From the Glossary of the 1961 Soncino edition of the Babylonian Talmund:

Judeo-Christian
See MIN [< Sanhedrin 90b note 17 ]

MIN: pl. minim (Lit.,'kind','species');(a)a heretic, esp. (b)a member of the sect of the early Jewish Christians.

MINUTH: Heresy, the belief in more than one Power, especially Judeo-Christianity.

Sanhedrin 90b note 17: Term used generally as a designation for Judeo-Christians. Herford, Christianity in the Talmud, pp. 232-4, conjectures that this discussion took place in Rome, whither R. Gamaliel journeyed in 95 C.E., since this is followed by 'The Romans asked R. Joshua.' He maintains that both sides accepted the fact of resurrection of the dead, the dispute being whether it is intimated in the Torah. The importance of the debate lay in the fact that the Christians maintained that the resurrection of the dead was consequent upon the resurrection of Christ this doctrine of course would be weakened if it could be shewn that resurrection was already taught in the Torah.

You should be aware as a practicing Christian, you are guilty of idolatry under Talmund Law.

Talmund law is not based on "Equal Justice for All." Different standards are used to judge Jews and non-Jews.

Thats why Christians should be most concerned about 'Noahide Laws' which although unconstitutional, have been United States Law since March 26, 1991, US Congress, HR 104 Public Law 102-14

I personally dread the day that martial law is declared in this nation. We will lose our country as we know it.

Christians should always be aware when discussing scripture with the (most) followers of Judaism, that the Babylonian Talmund holds final authority over what we as Christians call the Old Testament.

One day the Lord Jesus Christ will sort it all out.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Peace to you and yours.

(Message edited by plow_deep on June 30, 2006)

plow_deep

07-01-2006, 02:18 AM

To all,

I have the utmost respect for the Torah believing Jew that rejects the authority of the Talmund.

God bless

watchman_2

07-01-2006, 03:17 AM

plow_deep,

Thank you for your insight and opinion of the Talmud. smyrna has done a lot of research on this subject as well and has written a piece under these threads that exposed some of the Talmud beliefs.

I agree that our Torah believing Jewish friends should have the same interpretation of our common books of the Bible. That is, if the Kenites, have not polluted the interpretation.

skooter942000

07-01-2006, 04:40 PM

From Aaron:
[QUOTE]
do you know much about shepherds chapel beliefs? i hear him on t.v. arnold murray nor his sons will ever answer a question. they will always go round about and come back and NEVER answer the question. they have many odd beliefs. such as serpent seed doctrine and that we had a life with GOD before we were born. what do you feel. NO ARGUEMENTS please
........8<......cut...........

No arguement.

- You are a LIAR.

After...
- Every session
- Every lecture

Questions and Answers occur.

Never is a Question that is read on AIR, not Answered fully so that the BODY of CHRIST
Gains Wisdom (GOD'S WISDOM).

YAH is watching,
- YAH is JUDGE.

Saul also used to attack Christians.
And CHRIST got his attention on the Road
to Damascus.

Then came the Name change.
- And Attitude adjustment!!!

Stop attacking the brethren.
- That's what satan DOES.

Revelation : Chapter 20

20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
|
|
V

Revelation : Chapter 21

21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

- END

arron

07-01-2006, 08:06 PM

some one wrote in our newspaper that "pastor" arnold murray was a bible "scholar". how stupid can one get. he is not a bible scholar never has been and never will be untill he learns to interpret the bible not according to his "own interpretation" but according to what the bible says. and to scooter just keep scooting and you will wind up in the hell that murray says does not exsist.

(Message edited by arron on July 01, 2006)

abiyah

07-01-2006, 08:21 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Afternoon to you David !

I hope you are enjoying this real fine afternoon. I have enjoyed discussing our Father's Word with you regarding some of the topics of Aaron's original post. And I appreciate your kindness and patience in the Truths in which were put forth. I will not push you to believe as I believe, nor will I push you to receive understanding of Father's Word as I have understanding of our Father's Word. ALL must believe as they are led to believe.... for INDEED, God is in control, total and complete control. My heart does not doubt that I was with God [ Genesis 1:26-27 ], and even now... though my soul/spirit dwells in this flesh body, I know that God is with me even now, through The Son and The Holy Spirit, there He dwells in my heart, and His Truth is indeed a Treasure, as my heart diligently seeks Him in spirit and in truth. And I KNOW that one day I will be with God, my Father once again, as it was in the begining, " The LORD is There "..... Ezekiel 48:35.

May The Grace of our Lord, Christ Jesus, be upon you. : )

Abiyah

abiyah

07-01-2006, 08:40 PM

Hello Aaron !

Sir, I have also written you in my above post No. 358, I wrote this to you with regards to your opening post to this thread, and well your response to me sure would be most appreciated.

Thank you !

Abiyah

arron

07-01-2006, 09:55 PM

i have listend to sc many times and they DO NOT ANSWER a question. they will go all around and never answer it.
i would never attend any of their "lectures" or disussions groups. aronold murray and his son(sons) are not preaching a true gospel but a perverted one. this is my opinion of that cult. i do pray they will strighten out and really get on fire for GOD.

(Message edited by arron on July 01, 2006)

abiyah

07-01-2006, 10:47 PM

Hello again Aaron,

I discern that all you have spoken AGAINST Arnold Murray, his sons, as well as Skooter, you have done in utter ignorance. You do greatly err ! And yes indeed sir, I can say boldly that you do lie ! But to my brethren, pastor Murray, Dennis, David, and Skooter I remind them to recall these Words in which our Lord spoke.

Matthew 5:10 - 12
" Blessed ARE they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake; for theirs IS The Kingdom of Heaven. Blessed ARE ye, when men [ men such as Aaron ] shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you FALSELY, for My sake. Rejoice !, and be exceeding glad; for great IS your reward in Heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifMay God Bless my fellow labourers in Christ The Lord, May He continue to watch over and protect, lead, guide and direct, in The Name of Jesus Christ The Lord I pray; Amen.

Agape,

Abiyah

arron

07-02-2006, 01:31 AM

where is it in GODS WORD THE BIBLE that says we had a preexziztance with GOD prior to us being born here? and also you have taken out of context the verse you used in the above post they which are presecuted for righteouness sake.. i have not presecuted them. i have not reviled them i have not said all manner of evil against them. i did not any thing against them for JESUS sake. i simply stated my beliefs. WHICH THEY ALSO DID.

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 02:24 AM

II Peter 3:5-7

arron

07-02-2006, 06:14 AM

as i said before the one who is speaking uses scripture that does not applie to the subject being spoken about no where in 11 pet.3:5-7
does it speak of humans exsisting. this is referring to the earth bfore man was created on the earth. no man had a prescence with GOD prior to their birth on earth. adam was the first man and eve the first woman

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 06:32 AM

There was an age before and it perished. Wonder why arron?? Well, I give you the answer. Satan was overthrown. See Eze. 28.

arron

07-02-2006, 06:36 AM

as i said before scripture that has no reference to what is being said is being used by one who continues to spread their doctrine. yes there was a time prior to the creation of man. but no man was on the earth at that time it was inhabited by licifer and his angels, not man. it was destroyed and GOD created amn and woman ( adam and eve ) on the new renovated earth. we did not exsist before this period.

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 06:43 AM

The angels of the first earth age are the souls God place in flesh man. Gen. 1:26

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

arron

07-02-2006, 01:00 PM

one who is still trying to prove their dactrines of angels being man does not prove it by the scriptures they use. GOD was speaking not to angles but to the other ONES IN THE GOD HEAD,... GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST. THIS WAS GOD THE FATHER SPEAKING. three in ONE, NOT THREE GODS BUT THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS IN ONE.

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 04:14 PM

H430
&#1488;&#1500;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501;
'e&#774;lo&#770;hi&#770;ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


There it is [again]. 'Elohim' is God and the angels.

abiyah

07-02-2006, 08:55 PM

Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" where is it in GODS WORD THE BIBLE that says we had a preexziztance with GOD prior to us being born here? "
-------------------------------------------------

Good Day to you Aaron !

With regards to your above "quote" brother, I NEVER, NOT EVER, did I say that our Father's Word said that we, His children ' pre-existed ' as you have questioned here in your above post. You MUST for yourself " Rightly Divide The Word of Truth " [ II Timothy 2:15 ]. What you seem to fail in understanding is that we were with God BEFORE He placed our souls/spirits into these flesh bodies at conception. You have been given Scripture to show this Truth, as it is documented in our Father's Word. So then I think it would simply be wise for you to take that which was put forth FROM The Word of God and STUDY those verses/chapters to " Shew thyself approved " [ II Timothy 2:15 ], asking Father to open your spiritual eyes and your ears to HEAR & SEE this Truth with understanding. Do you recall those Words that our Lord spoke... " he THAT HATH AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR "... He is addressing those that have ears to hear His Truth WITH understanding. He instructed us to ASK, SEEK, and you SHALL Find, .... find what brother ? Find WISDOM, Knowledge and understanding of God's Word which is ALL True. You Aaron, my brother In Christ our Lord, have received many, many Truths of God's Word, and have snuffed at them for the traditions of men, which make your Father's Word to none effect [ Mark 7:13 ], you take that which you have been taught by 'man' as the Gospel Truth. Yet so many here have shared with you God's Word, and ye receive it NOT ! Therefore, you MUST ASK with a true heart, SEEK diligently for these Truths in which you doubt, and Christ our Lord has promised you, that you SHALL Find [ Mathew 7:7 ]. We did NOT pre-exist, we have existed from The time in which our Father, The LORD your God created all of His children, those souls were created in the world that THEN WAS, and at that time all of God's children sang with joy = meaning they lived in peace [Job 38:7]... UNTIL that one of His children became very bad, evil, wicked, and rebelled against our Father [ Ezekiel 28 ], and some of God's children joined satan, which caused a great destruction of that world that THEN WAS, in which ALL of God's Children dwelt with God, These Truths were documented for you, IN The Word of God in the above posts Aaron... And it was AFTER that satan had rebelled against God, that the world that THEN WAS, persished, NOT God's Children, the world age as it THEN WAS perished [ II Peter 3:6 ]..... in which a new world age/time began, and God made His children FLESH. This was so that each of His children could be born innocent, of their mother's womb, born of water, in flesh, having no rememberance of the world age/time that THEN WAS, so that God could ' test ' His children to see which ones would ' continue ' to love and follow Him, or follow satan. It was God, your Father, your Real Father, your closest of Kin, who placed your soul/spirit into your flesh body. I HOPE that this makes better sense to you, however the only way you will truly understand is by getting into God's Word, ASKING Him in The Name of His Son, for understanding. yet you MUST SEEK it on your own and God will help. I need NOT to tell you again were these Truths can be found in Father's Word, as I have documented ALREADY for you, and IF you really want to know... you must take action for yourself, and ASK, SEEK these Truths, and THEN as Christ has promised you, ye SHALL find, and IF you KNOCK, the door of your mind shall be opened unto you for understanding.

abiyah

07-02-2006, 09:31 PM

AND AGAIN... Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" and also you have taken out of context the verse you used in the above post they which are presecuted for righteouness sake.. i have not presecuted them. i have not reviled them i have not said all manner of evil against them. i did not any thing against them for JESUS sake. i simply stated my beliefs. "
-------------------------------------------------

Continued from above..... Aaron, I have taken nothing out of context here brother. First of all I have given you the benefit of the doubt when I said you speak against these in utter ignorance. You have only fragments of Truth.... remember those fragments that Christ's disciples put in the basket when He had feed the thousands, SYMBOLIC OF TRUTH this meal was. But when God's servants TRY and give you meat of God's Word you do NOT receive it, you doubt it, and you so sir REVILE those that give it unto you, and you do sir FALSY ACCUSE those that serve God with a true heart, and have been given understanding of His Truth TO SHARE WITH YOU ! You do THIS Aaron ! You persecute by the things that you say to them causing them to ' kick the dust from off there feet, and you do drive them away... that IS persecution, do you have a Bible dictionary ? Then LOOK IT UP ! For that is one of the meanings thereof of persecution. And you DO sir REVILE them, meaning you reproach them and upbraid, critisize them, and you do speak evil, that being you speak bad of them in an ethical sense of the word, again you need to obtain a Strong's Dictionary/Concorance and LOOK, SEEK these words up, and yes indeed you speak falsely of them, you do lie when you say that The Shepherd's Chapel pastors NEVER answer a question, that is falsely speaking of them Aaron, WAKE UP ! I know not ONE, no not ONE television ministy that allows one to write or call in a question for them to answer, I think ONLY The Shepderd's Chapel does this and they do so to EDIFY those that seek knowledge and understanding of God's Word. So no Aaron, I have not taken Matthew 5:10 - 12 out of its context. It is RIGHTEOUS to share God's Real Truth into the hearts of His children. Now you stated above here that you simply stated your beliefs ? Do you NOT beleive God's Word Aaron.. I mean ALL OF IT ? Because The Shepherd's Chapel TEACHES God's Word chapter by chapter and verse by verse, and those that come here to fellowship with you in Christ have shared God's Word, His Truth with you also, THE MEAT OF HIS WORD, yet you believe it not ! You doubt ! Again.. Ask, Seek, And ye shall Find, Knock and the door SHALL be opened unto you, all these take action on your own part Aaron [ Matthew 7:7 ].

Abiyah

yaakov2

07-03-2006, 07:55 PM

watchman_2

So, I take it that your branch of Judaism rejects that Kenites exist, that they pretend they are Jews, that they were in charge of the religion at the time of Christ, that they were responsible for having Christ crucified, and that they still pretend to be Jews today.

Your post displays such a deep ignorance of history and Judaism that I can’t address it fully in one post. I will just scratch the surface in my answer.

Kenites are a group of people that converted to Judaism. The first Kenite mentioned in the Torah was Moses’s father-in-law. Another name for him was Keni.

I don’t understand what you mean by “pretending to be Jews”. When people convert to Judaism, they don’t stop being their nationality. A Frenchman that converts to Judaism is a French Jew. Judaism only accepts converts that are sincere. They must demonstrate their learning and commitment. It isn’t like Christianity that just takes a dunking and professing a belief. Just because you reject G-d’s words and teachings, doesn’t make Jews into pretend Jews. Rejecting your mangod idol DEMONSTRATES Judaism. If some professed Jew believed in your mangod, then they are apostate Jews.

At the time your mangod allegedly lived, the Sadducees were in charge with Roman support. Other branches were the Pharisees and the Zealots. The Romans were in charge of all capital crimes. They were the people that hung your dude up. The Jews were forbidden by the Romans from carrying out death sentences. In fact, your mangod didn’t commit any capital crimes against Judaism. At most, he committed a few misdemeanors.

yaakov2

07-03-2006, 07:59 PM

plow_deep

Judaism and Christianity mix like oil and water.

Yes.

Talmund law is not based on "Equal Justice for All." Different standards are used to judge Jews and non-Jews.

Just like Lawyers adhere to the Bar’s laws, accountants adhere to laws from FASB, and contractors adhere to building codes. Wouldn’t you say that accountants have different standards than contractors?

Thats why Christians should be most concerned about 'Noahide Laws' which although unconstitutional, have been United States Law since March 26, 1991, US Congress, HR 104 Public Law 102-14

Public Law 102-14 proclaims that 3/26/91 shall be known as Education Day, U.S.A. It makes no mention of any changes to law.
Public Law 102-14 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c102:H.J.RES.104.ENR:)

Christians should always be aware when discussing scripture with the (most) followers of Judaism, that the Babylonian Talmund holds final authority over what we as Christians call the Old Testament.

You are wrong. The Torah is the final authority.

Also, the Old Testament is a Christian interpretation of our book and is held in no regard in Judaism. The Tanakh is what we use.

I have the utmost respect for the Torah believing Jew that rejects the authority of the Talmund.

That’s weird. You only respect those that reject G-d’s teachings. I can’t respect someone that wants Jews to reject G-d. And you wonder why our two religions mix like oil and water?

plow_deep

07-04-2006, 12:19 AM

yaakov2,

Just like Lawyers adhere to the Bar’s laws, accountants adhere to laws from FASB, and contractors adhere to building codes. Wouldn’t you say that accountants have different standards than contractors?
Your beating around the bush. Constitutional law is equal justice for Jew and non-Jew. Talmund law is not equal for Jew and non-Jew. Jews and non-Jews living in the United States should be judged in civil courts with equal rights and standards.
Dont you agree?

Public Law 102-14 proclaims that 3/26/91 shall be known as Education Day, U.S.A. It makes no mention of any changes to law.

Whereas, you might need a lawyer to interpret it for you.

Congress coupled Rabbi Schneerson's happy birthday message with a declaration that the United States of America was founded on the seven Noahide Laws.

Despite this Congressional declaration, many Americans are still not aware that their country was founded on Talmudic laws.

Why are Americans not aware? Because its a lie and its an unconstitutional law.

Education day is a deception that hardly any American has heard of wouldnt you say? Its been over 15 yr.s since it was passed. Our government is doing a mighty poor job of educating the public about "Education Day".

It is still widely believed by most Americans that America was founded on the principles contained in the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution.

cont...

plow_deep

07-04-2006, 12:22 AM

cont.

You are wrong. The Torah is the final authority.

Isnt the Talmund also known as the Oral Torah?

"If the Bible is the cornerstone of Judaism, then the Talmud is the central pillar, soaring up from the foundations and supporting the entire spiritual and intellectual edifice. In many ways the Talmud is the most important book in Jewish culture, the backbone of creativity and of national life. No other work has had a comparable influence on the theory and practice of Jewish life, shaping spiritual content and serving as a guide to conduct."-Rabbi Steinsaltz, founder of the Israel Institute for Talmudic Publications.

That’s weird. You only respect those that reject G-d’s teachings. I can’t respect someone that wants Jews to reject G-d. And you wonder why our two religions mix like oil and water?

Not true. I respect all people and their right to find their own personal path to God. You choose your path and I choose mine and I'll defend your rights to choose your path.

I cant respect someone that wants me to reject my Lord Jesus Christ and wants to force me to accept Talmund law.

"The Talmud, then, is the written form of that which, in the time of Jesus, was called the Traditions of the Elders, and to which he makes frequent allusions."-Rabbi Michael L. Rodkinson, author of the History of the Talmud

"Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaptation of custom, and adjustment of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered. When the Jew reads his prayers, he is reciting formulae prepared by pre-Maccabean scholars; when he dons the cloak prescribed for the Day of Atonement and Passover Eve, he is wearing the festival garment of ancient Jerusalem; when he studies the Talmud, he is actually repeating the arguments used in the Palestinian academies."-Rabbi Dr. Finkelstein, President of the Jewish Theological Seminary of America

What does my Lord Jesus Christ in His words say about the Pharisees?

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

I dont wonder why our religions mix like oil and water. I know why.

My sister and her husband (lawyers) are both members of Reform Judaism. I love and respect them both. We are very close. Though we dont respect each others religious viewpoints, we do however love and respect each other as persons.

Peace to you and yours.

arron

07-04-2006, 12:55 AM

why do some who post the doctrines they are trying to get people to believe, such as snake seed , preexsistance of human souls, no rapture to naem a few. try to say that every one is revileing them, ersecuting them, being evil to them being hypocrites to them and such like, yet they do the same to us. on tolde i was not in CHRIST, then one said that you could not be in CHRIST and still be alright. no you are either saved or lost. there is no middle ground.

watchman_2

07-04-2006, 03:53 AM

yaakov2,

Moses' father-in-law lived in the land of the Kenites -- he was not a Kenite by race.

A French Jew is still a Frenchman -- he didn't change his nationality nor his race because he accepts a religion.

So, when I refer to Kenites pretending to be Jews, I am refering to the race of people called Kenites. [Rev. 2:9 and 3:9].

As plow_deep pointed out, the Pharisees were the cornerstone of Talmund law. The Pharisees were comprised of the Kenites that worked their way into the priesthood at the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.

So, it appears fair to conclude that your Talmund law is made up by Satan's offspring.

plow_deep

07-04-2006, 04:18 AM

Note:

I dont believe all the Pharisees were Satans children (spiritual or physical makes no difference for they both mean the same to me), only the ones who were attacking the Lord Jesus Christ. The New Testament points out that there were those who recognised Christ as the Son of God.

arron

07-04-2006, 04:25 AM

neither do i believe that the pharesees were physical children of satan. they were against JESUS there fore they were against GOD ALMIGHTY for JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH. and i beleive that they saw it was true and they were not going to admit it so they were against HIM.

yaakov2

07-04-2006, 04:59 AM

plow_deep

I'm explaining the bush, not beating it. Gentiles have equal rights under Talmudic laws, but not equal duties. As G-d's priests, He gave us more obligations to fulfill. For example, we are not allowed to eat pork, but there is no such restriction on you.

Its been over 15 yr.s since it was passed. Our government is doing a mighty poor job of educating the public about "Education Day".

I never heard of it until I read your post the other day. I suspect it is because Education Day is not an annual holiday, but a one-shot deal. Are you saying this is the only day that Congress made a proclaimation for?

Isnt the Talmund also known as the Oral Torah?
Yes.
Your quote is nice, but it doesn't change the fact that Torah (Written Law) is the final authority. Talmud (Oral Law) is the 2nd to last authority, superseded only by the Torah.

Not true. I respect all people and their right to find their own personal path to God. You choose your path and I choose mine and I'll defend your rights to choose your path.

How can you respect people's right to their relationship with G-d, if you say that you can only respect them if they abandon G-d?

I cant respect someone that wants me to reject my Lord Jesus Christ and wants to force me to accept Talmund law.

You're right. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I am only correcting your fallacies regarding Judaism.

yaakov2

07-04-2006, 05:12 AM

watchman_2

Moses' father-in-law lived in the land of the Kenites -- he was not a Kenite by race.

It was the same thing. That's like saying that Charles De Gaul lived in the land of the French, but he was not a Frenchman by nationality. Also, Kenites were not a race, but a tribe. Just like the Moabites or the Hittites were tribes.

So, when I refer to Kenites pretending to be Jews...

What do you mean "pretending to be Jews"? You didn't answer that question last time. What does it mean?

As plow_deep pointed out, the Pharisees were the cornerstone of Talmund law.

It is an odd way to phrase it. However the Pharisees kept the Torah, they were the good guys. The Sadduccess were proponets of assimilation. If it was up to them, there probably wouldn't be any Jews or Judaism in the present day. We'd all be Italians.

The Pharisees were comprised of the Kenites that worked their way into the priesthood at the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.

The Pharisees were a Jewish denomination. It is simply false to say that one tribe all had the same beliefs. Can you think of any large group of people which all have the same beliefs?

So, it appears fair to conclude that your Talmund law is made up by Satan's offspring.

Whaa??? Why are you accusing G-d of being demonic? Or are you saying that G-d is Satan?

arron

07-04-2006, 06:00 AM

amen tell the truth yaakov. keep up the good work. as achristian i beleive in GOD the same as you do. i also believe that JESUS IS GODS SON that is the difference between us as far as that goes. yes the priest were GODS people to do cerian duites which oi believe most kep and are still today true jews. there was no kenites that invaded anything. the jews have remained jews all these years. what other people have kept their idenity all these many years. yes i believe that the jews are GODS chosen earthly people. the churchis different.. the church is THE BRIDE OF JESUS. be good and keep your faith in GOD and if ever HE shows you christian way please come. GOD LOVES YOU. i learned a long time ago not to say anything against GODS PEOPLE THE JEWS. no i do not agree with those who put you down. i think they are on dangerous ground with THE LORD, JEHOVAH ( AND JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD )

abiyah

07-04-2006, 01:42 PM

Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" yes the priest were GODS people to do cerian duites which oi believe most kep and are still today true jews. there was no kenites that invaded anything. the jews have remained jews all these years. "
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifThe kenites most certainly took on the identity of those of The Tribe of Judah, especially just prior to the Babylonian captivity; and by the way... let us not forget that there are 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL in all. Judah is only one of the twelve. However, IT IS WRITTEN that The LORD would scatter them, and so it is today, HOWEVER, they SHALL be brought back together at the return of the TRUE Jesus Christ, at the Second Advent at the Seventh Trump.

Revelation 2:9
" I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I KNOW THE BLASPHEMY OF THEM WHICH SAY THEY are Jews [ They say that they are of The Tribe of Judah ], AND ARE NOT, but are the synagogue of Satan. "

Revelation 3:9
" Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, WHICH SAY THEY are Jews [ They SAY that their father is Abraham, and that they are of the Tribe of Judah ] AND ARE NOT, BUT DO LIE; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. "

John 3:16
" For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son [ Immanuel= God with us ], that whosoever BELIEVETH IN Him should NOT perish, but have everlasting life. "

Abiyah

watchman_2

07-04-2006, 03:07 PM

yaakov2,

Kenites have a unique lineage from Satan and Eve. There is no other group that has common ancestory. So, one cannot classify Kenites as a tribe. Tribes, by definition, have common ancestory. Therefore, Kenites are a race of people.

I believe that there was ample explanation provided to justify the terminology 'pretend to be Jews'. I fail to understand your continued questioning of the terminology.

The offspring of Satan do not want to be persecuted. Surely, they would be persecuted if people knew that they were Kenites. So, they pretend to be Jews to hide their true identity.

Through a lack of understanding of the Bible, groups [like today's nazis -- See 'divinepageant.com'] misconstrue the Jews to be Satan's offspring instead of the Kenites. They persecute all Jews [in violation of the parable of Christ's tares of the field] because of the Kenites.

There are Jews that are direct descendants from Judah and there are Jews by religion only. Likewise, people are referred to by the region/state they live in, by the region/state of birth, by nationality, by the region one's ancestors originated, or by race.

When I speak of Kenites, I am speaking strictly of this race of people descendant from Cain.

llm

07-04-2006, 05:53 PM

Then there are Edomites that became Jews. See history of John Hycrynus...

yaakov2

07-04-2006, 06:48 PM

watchman_2

The offspring of Satan do not want to be persecuted. Surely, they would be persecuted if people knew that they were Kenites. So, they pretend to be Jews to hide their true identity.

Are you insane?

Jews have been the most persecuted group of people in history.

There are Jews that are direct descendants from Judah and there are Jews by religion only.

Once a person converts to Judaism, they are Jews. A convert is treated the same as one born to it. During their lives people may choose different denominations, but they are all Jews. No group of people can only "pretend" to follow our rituals for generations and maintain their cohesiveness. The Torah has maintained the Jews, our uniqueness and identity. If people weren't really sincere in Jewish beliefs, then they would have assimilated long ago. History

When I speak of Kenites, I am speaking strictly of this race of people descendant from Cain. and Kenites have a unique lineage from Satan and Eve.

I don't get it. Are they from Satan and Eve or from Cain? Are you saying Eve had sex with her son, Cain?

There is no other group that has common ancestory.

So you are saying that no one is descended from Adam and Eve?

So, one cannot classify Kenites as a tribe. Tribes, by definition, have common ancestory. Therefore, Kenites are a race of people.

You are saying that the Kenites are a tribe by Satan and Eve. Thus, Adam and Eve must make up a tribe also. Which tribe descends from Adam and Eve?

Also, the twelve tribes of Jews descended from Jacob who lived long after Eve had died. If all the tribes are descended from Eve, how could these tribes seperately exist?

Also, the Torah makes a big deal about the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob) and provides information and history, while the Kenites were only mentioned by name once, and that in passing. How can G-d consider them to be important since they get so little mention?

Also, the tribe of Kenites got their name from Moses's father-in-law (Keni). Why did they get named Kenites if the head of the tribe was Satan or Cain?

abiyah

07-04-2006, 08:29 PM

yaakov2 WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" Also, the tribe of Kenites got their name from Moses's father-in-law (Keni). "
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifNOT SO ! Moses father in law's name WAS NOT, I REPEAT was not 'Keni ', as you have so stated above here. Moses father-in-law was a Midianite Priest. He was of the sons of Midian, the son of Abraham, from his second wife Katura, following the passing of his first wife Sarah. So then Moses father-in-law was in no way of the lineage of the kenites, kenite = Means sons of Cain. Now ' REUEL ', also known as 'JETHRO', which was Moses father-in-law was of Abraham, Abraham was of the offspring of Adam.

Exodus 2:16
" Now THE PRIEST OF MIDIAN had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifMoses father-in-law's name was ' REUEL ' meaning friend of God.

Exodus 2:18
" And when they came to REUEL their father, he said, How is it that ye are come so soon to day ?"

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifMoses father-in-law was also known by his priestly title, which was JETHRO; Meaning his abudance.

Exodus 3:1
" Now Moses kept the flock of JETHRO his FATHER IN LAW, THE PRIEST OF MIDIAN; and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifMoses father-in-law was a Midianite !

Abiyah

plow_deep

07-04-2006, 08:40 PM

yaakov2,

I'm explaining the bush, not beating it. Gentiles have equal rights under Talmudic laws, but not equal duties. As G-d's priests, He gave us more obligations to fulfill. For example, we are not allowed to eat pork, but there is no such restriction on you.

Wow! There are so many examples of the unequalness of Jews and non-Jews in the Talmund, I dont know where to start. Enjoy the 4th, fire up the grill and have a cheeseburger...I'll get back to you on that one.

I never heard of it until I read your post the other day. I suspect it is because Education Day is not an annual holiday, but a one-shot deal. Are you saying this is the only day that Congress made a proclaimation for?

Congress has been making the proclaimation of Education Day as far back as 1975 and the proclaimation follows the Jewish calendar so the actual date changes yearly.
Kinda confusing for the average American.

Now this is where it gets interesting.
The last time the proclaimation was made the Noahide Laws were written into it becoming public law. There is no need for any further proclamations.

Kinda sneaky huh?

On 3/26/91 Congress coupled Rabbi Schneerson's happy birthday message with a declaration that the United States of America was founded on the seven Noahide Laws.

cont...

plow_deep

07-04-2006, 08:42 PM

cont.

Forum at The Record, Independent Weekly Newspaper at Harvard Law School, posted 4/29/05:

"While we have had complete silence and acquiecence on the part of the ACLU concerning the establishment of the "Noahide Laws" as our official state religion, we hear them talk loudly against the posting of the Ten Commandments in a courthouse as a part of a display about the foundation of our legal system. According to the ACLU, the displaying of the Ten Commandments in a public courthouse, even in the context of their being among many documents that represent the development of the legal system of our Federal Goverhment, makes the statement that a specific religion is seen as a part of the foundation of our western civilization. Because of this, the display is promoting this religion, which is a violation of our First Amendment, and so is unacceptable."

This following statement was found on the ACLU website:

"The Ten Commandments advocate believing in God, observing the Sabbath and not worshipping idols," Friedman added, noting that different faiths have different versions of the document. "Those are religious beliefs that should be left to each individual. Especially in a courthouse, people should not be made to feel like outsiders in their own community because they may not share the prevailing religious view."

..."I would like to know why the ACLU, our press, and our politicians have remained silent for fourteen years about the passage of Public Bill 102-14, and this obvious violation of our First Amendment guarantee of our right to worship God as we choose and the guarantee that our government will not establish a state religion, while at the same time the ACLU attacks legitimate public expressions and displays of religious-oriented material, such as the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, and Nativity scenes at Christmas."

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Beauty/talmud.htm
The National Institute for Judaic Law was announced as a way to promote the applications of its teachings into U.S. courtrooms, reported By Janine Zacharia in The Jerusalem Post, Nov. 9, 2002

How can you respect people's right to their relationship with G-d, if you say that you can only respect them if they abandon G-d?

See your just confused and have it backwards.

If a person accepts Jesus Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, then they are abandoning confusion and babylon, of which the Talmund is an example.

You can know the Lord Jesus Christ and know God, or you can believe whatever you want to believe, its your choice and I'll respect it. Whereas Judaism has aspirations of forcing their laws on Jews and non-Jews alike and consider themselves appointed Judges for all of mankind. A Christians job is to publish and speak the Word of God. Nothing more. Those who hear it have the freewill to accept or refuse it and God is the Judge.
I'm just correcting your fallacies regarding Christianity

plow_deep

07-04-2006, 09:02 PM

This is an attempt at humor...Its been stuck in my mind since I 1st read some of the posts above.

"Oh my G-d! They've killed Keni!"
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Peace towards all and have a happy 4th!

abiyah

07-04-2006, 10:34 PM

yaakov 2 WROTE:
--------------------------------------------------
" As God's priests, He gave us more obligations to fulfill. For example, we are not allowed to eat pork, BUT THERE IS NO SUCH RESTRICTION ON YOU. "
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifAgain... NOT SO ! We as Christians are to ALSO keep The LORD's Health Laws.

Deuteronomy 14:8
" And THE SWINE [ that being proky pig ], because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth NOT the cud, IT IS UNCLEAN UNTO YOU; ye SHALL NOT EAT OF OF THEIR FLESH, NOR touch their dead carcase. "

Leviticus 11:7
" And THE SWINE, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he IS UNCLEAN to you. "

The LORD has given us these Food Laws to keep us healthy in the flesh, and they INDEED STILL apply today; for even Christ Himself said.

Matthew 5:18
" For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, till ALL be fulfilled. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif The Christian that knows and understands God's Word, does indeed keep The LORD's Health Laws which are written of in Leviticus Chapter 11 & Deuteronomy 14:3 - 21. Any Christian who you find doing otherwise does so in ignorance, because many have been told that The Law was nailed to the cross with Christ, AGAIN, that is just not so. Jesus Christ, The Messiah FUFILLED the ' blood ' ordinances of The Law, God's Law is still very much in effect.

So I say... Heeeey, nooooo thanks Red Lobster, and when at a party... UG ! Shrimp Cocktail... ? Nahhhh..... I'll pass. LOL ! : )

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif I hope you are enjoying your 4th of July as well Plow Deep..... Its raining pretty hard here in my neck of the woods... LOL ! Barbaquing in the rain is a wonderful thing. : )

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifAbiyah

ezekiel_37

07-05-2006, 01:59 AM

Yaakov...

you said...

I don't get it. Are they from Satan and Eve or from Cain? Are you saying Eve had sex with her son, Cain?

The kenites, by definition are the sons of Cain.

We contend that Cain is the son of Eve and the Serpent (Satan), and thus the emnity is still there between the woman's seed...and the serpents seed. Gen3:15.

So, since no other peoples are known to come from this union, they are a race unto themselves.

Also, these kenites, the sons of Cain, survived the flood of Noah's time, as they are mentioned after the flood. We contend that they worked their way into the priesthood by Christ's time and were the ones who actually killed Him, not the Jews (under Rome).

in His service
c

watchman_2

07-05-2006, 05:54 AM

yaakov2,

Adam is not Cain's father [See Gen. 5] -- Satan is [See Gen. 3:14-16].

Jews have been persecuted falsely because of the Kenites.

There are not 12 tribes of 'Jews' from Jacob. Only, one tribe of Jacob is the Jews.

Kenites are a race of people -- not a tribe. There is no record in the Bible of Eve and Satan producing another child.

God makes a big deal about the Kenites [See Rev. 2 and 3]. The only two types of churches that meet with Christ's favor are the two that teach of the Kenites. It is very important to know that it was not the Jews that provoked the Romans into crucifying Christ -- it was the Kenites that were pretending to be Jews [Pharisees and chief priests] that did it. Jews have been falsely accused of crucifying Christ ever since.

Jews by religion only may be treated the same as Jews, but it does not change their race.

yaakov2

07-05-2006, 05:49 PM

Plow_deep

The last time the proclaimation was made the Noahide Laws were written into it becoming public law. There is no need for any further proclamations.

I found further proclamations online for 2002 and 2003.

Education Day 2003 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030411-2.html)
For the past 19 years, on the anniversary of his birth, we have recognized the contributions of the Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe who was instrumental in establishing numerous educational, social, and rehabilitative institutions. The Rebbe believed that education is critical in cultivating the moral character of students. He lived what he said: "A single good deed on your part could transform the world."

Today in the United States, there is a growing momentum of acts of kindness. Across our country, millions of Americans are helping to reinforce a culture of service, citizenship, and responsibility, and are applying the compassion of America to our biggest problems and deepest wounds. To build on these successes, we must instill these values in our next generation of leaders. Amidst a world of challenges, we can equip our children to carry our Nation into a future of promise and possibility for all.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim April 13, 2003, as Education and Sharing Day, U.S.A. I call upon all Americans to invest in our Nation's future by helping our children understand the importance of character and provide them the knowledge and values necessary to succeed.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this tenth day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-seventh.

GEORGE W. BUSH

Education Day 2002 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020325-4.html)

So, the rabbi was the cause of Education day. It’s nice, but so what? It’s a day to recognize the importance of education in America. It has nothing to do with changing US constitutional laws. I provided a link to the text of Public Law 102-14, but you didn’t seem to read it. So, I will paste it here.

Many laws written by Congress start with explaining the reasons for what they are doing. These reasons appear as “Whereas” statements. The meat of the law starts with “Now, therefore…”

To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)

H.J.Res.104

One Hundred Second Congress of the United States of America

AT THE FIRST SESSION
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Thursday, the third day of January,

one thousand nine hundred and ninety-one

Joint Resolution

To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'.

Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded;

Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws;

Whereas without these ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;

Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society; ...

(continued)

yaakov2

07-05-2006, 05:51 PM

(continued)
Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future;

Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these ethical values and principles throughout the world;

Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991;

Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, `the rebbe', this, his ninetieth year will be seen as one of `education and giving', the year in which we turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws; and

Whereas this will be reflected in an international scroll of honor signed by the President of the United States and other heads of state: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That March 26, 1991, the start of the ninetieth year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such day with appropriate ceremonies and activities.

Speaker of the House of Representatives.

Vice President of the United States and

President of the Senate.

Other than proclaiming a day to recognize the importance of education, can you tell me what laws have been changed?

Also, the Noahide Laws are nothing awful. Noahide Laws (http://www.ahavat-israel.com/am/goyim.php)
There are only seven of them as follows:
1) Prohibition on idolatry.
2) Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
3) Prohibition on murder.
4) Prohibition on robbery and theft.
5) Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
6) Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
7) Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.

What I found sneaky was you posting Forum at The Record, Independent Weekly Newspaper at Harvard Law School, posted 4/29/05: without posting the link. It is just one’s anonymous person’s post on a website. If you are going to take it as authoritative, then why not accept the very next person’s post as authoritative as well? Here it is:
http://www.hlrecord.org/messageboard/index.cfm?event=viewtopic&umessage_id=b8fdef47-5498-4fab-81ce-0388c3ad591a

There is really not much to say about this person other than being nuts or ignorant or ill-informed or all three.

If this person is truly in Harvard Law School, then a terrible mistake was made by the faculty to admit this person. Without going back to the ORIGINAL SOURCES, without putting these sources in their ORIGINAL CONTEXT, one can NOT make any inferences regarding the Noachide Laws. In fact, the listed Noachide Laws on supposed Christian websites are lies, as these have been changed to fit the crazy world-view of these people.

These people talk about being fooled by Satan through these laws. It seems to me that Satan has already done his job through these people.

yaakov2

07-05-2006, 06:30 PM

Plow_deep

Wow! There are so many examples of the unequalness of Jews and non-Jews in the Talmund, I dont know where to start. Enjoy the 4th, fire up the grill and have a cheeseburger...I'll get back to you on that one.

Why would you tell me to have a cheeseburger? I thought you followed G-d’s Eternal Laws on health, the same as me.

Don’t bother with your twistings on Talmud. It will just be a bunch of out-of-context quotes that I have seen many times before. Men and women have different duties. Do you believe men and women are unequal?

I'm just correcting your fallacies regarding Christianity

Oh, I thought we were discussing your fallacies about Judaism. Since when has the Talmud been a Christian authoritative book?

yaakov2

07-05-2006, 06:32 PM

watchman_2, ezekiel_37, abiyah

Thank you for answering my questions. I have a better understanding of your beliefs now.

ezekiel_37

07-05-2006, 09:56 PM

hi Yaakov

I think I asked this of you a while back, but...

why not a cheese burger.....assuming it is 100% beef.

Is it that your not supposed to eat meat and cheese at the same time?

If this is so, is this found in the Bible, or in the oral teaching.

Thank-you in advance.

in His service
c

abiyah

07-05-2006, 10:39 PM

Ezekiel WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" Is it that your not supposed to eat meat and cheese at the same time ?

If this is so, is this found in the Bible, or in the oral teaching. "
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifWell Good Afternoon to you Ezekiel !

Peace unto you; I pray that all is real, real well with you and your family. : ) I saw your post here and I THINK this is were it is pulled from, HOWEVER, I may very well err, and yaakov is probably the best to answer this.

Exodus 23:19
" The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into The House of The LORD thy God. Thou shalt NOT seethe a kid in his mother's milk. "

This word ' seeth ' in the Hebrew is ' bashal ' and it means to boil; cook; bake; roast; sodden.

Exodus 34:26
" The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto The House of The LORD thy God. Thou shalt NOT seethe a kid in his mother's milk. "

We are NOT to boil, bake, cook a kid in its own mother's milk. As the milk that you would boil the kid in would of been its milk of nourishment from its own mother, its disrepectful. Now I think I have heard our pastor liken it to throwing salt on a wound. Its disrespectful to nature, its unnatural better said. I hope that helps some Ezekiel. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Agape,

Abiyah

yaakov2

07-06-2006, 01:39 AM

ezekiel_37

why not a cheese burger.....assuming it is 100% beef. Is it that your not supposed to eat meat and cheese at the same time?

Correct.

If this is so, is this found in the Bible, or in the oral teaching.

Both.
Exodus 23:19 The choicest first fruit of your land shall you bring to the House of HaShem, your G-d; you shall not cook a kid in the milk of its mother.

The prohibition against cooking meak and milk applies to all ages and species of sheep and cattle. Rabbinic Law extended it to all kosher meat and fowl. The Torah mentions this prohibition three times. Since every word in the Torah is meaningful, when G-d repeats Himself, there is always a good reason. Our Sages determined that the three fold repetition means that there are three elements to the prohibition. It is forbidden to cook the mixture, to eat it, or to benefit from it.

The Talmud extends and explains the Torah. There is an entire book in the Talmud which goes into detail of G-d's Laws of Kashrut.

ezekiel_37

07-06-2006, 03:20 AM

Hi there Yaakov,

so, cheese on it's own or without meat is ok, but cheese with meat is not ok.

I do not see the implication as to a cheeseburger crossing that line. The cheese is made from the milk of 10's or 100's or 1000's of different cows, and that the meat is adult. I don't like veal anyway.

Is this not a symbolic teaching not to add insult to injury, or not to kick a man when he is down.

cheese is ok
beef is ok
the beef is adult
the cheese is made from possibly one cow's(animals) milk but most likely many.

yaakov, what is your opinion...

SC students....

what are your thoughts on cheeseburgers..

I really like them, and giving up bacon on my cheeseburgers was hard enough....lol

in His service
c

angie0401

07-06-2006, 03:28 AM

ezekiel,
Have you tried turkey bacon? We really like it much better (now) than pork bacon. Tastes as good without being so greasy and making you feel icky after eating it!

FYI
I don't see any conflict with eating a cheeseburger. I agree with your analysis of it.

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 03:58 AM

Yaakov2,

Why would you tell me to have a cheeseburger? I thought you followed G-d’s Eternal Laws on health, the same as me.

Ive never made a statement on Gods health laws.
When I read Exodus 23:19, I see nothing in it prohibiting me from having a cheeseburger.

I obey Gods Word, not some Talmund interpretation of Gods word by a Rabbi.

For example, we are not allowed to eat pork, but there is no such restriction on you.

Are you saying pork should be eaten by Gentiles?
Or do you mean there is a physical difference in the makeup of a Jews body and a Gentiles body? Shouldnt Gentiles enjoy healthy eating practices too?

What I found sneaky was you posting Forum at The Record, Independent Weekly Newspaper at Harvard Law School, posted 4/29/05: without posting the link. It is just one’s anonymous person’s post on a website. If you are going to take it as authoritative, then why not accept the very next person’s post as authoritative as well?

Thanks for the link. I had only read excerpts of the letter posted on the Harvard forum from a letter in snailmail. I gave all the info I had which from your posting of the link was enough.
I went a read the whole posting and the 2nd posting. the 2nd posting offered no information just an attempt at insults and smearing.

Thanks to your link I'll go ahead and post the first one in full since it was informative.

cont...

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 04:05 AM

cont.

I have just read on one of my emails that Anthony D. Romero, executive director for the ACLU, will be interviewed on Sixty Minutes this Sunday, May 1.

In 1991, the first President Bush signed into law, Public Bill 102-14, that recognizes the Noahide Laws to be the bedrock of our civilization. In essence, this is the establishment of a state religion by our Federal Government. It needs to be understood, first, that these Noahide Laws don't even exist. They are a fabrication, a point of speculation written about in the Talmud. According to Talmudic Law, these Noahide laws are not considered true Law, or "Halacha", but are considered as "Halagah" or story telling. If you try to find them in your Bible, you will see that they are a total fake. The Noahide Laws implicitly determine that Christians are to be punished by beheading, as Christianity is seen in the Talmud as idol worship. More significantly, however, is that according to Mosaic Law, these Noahide laws would be considered an outright blasphemy. According to Mosaic Law, which you will find in the Pentateuch, and not the Talmud, all people are under the same Law, meaning God's Law. There is no separate law, different from Mosaic Law, for the non-Jews.

In other words, we now have in our Federal Statutes, the declaration that a certain religious laws that don't even exist, and must be seen as a blasphemy, are the bedrock of our civilization. Apparently these bogus laws are expected to replace someday Christianity as the official religion of the non-Jews.

I have tried to contact the ACLU, simply to get an explanation of these laws, and what their opinion is about Public Bill 102-14. I was told that they couldn't do anything about the matter. I have also noticed that there was no coverage in the newspapers about this Federal Statute, nor was there any challenge to the passage of this Bill, by our watchdog civil rights groups. There has been absolute silence about Public Bill 102-14 in the media, in our government, and in the institutions that claim to be protecting our civil rights.

While we have had complete silence and acquiecence on the part of the ACLU concerning the establishment of the "Noahide Laws" as our official state religion, we hear them talk loudly against the posting of the Ten Commandments in a courthouse as a part of a display about the foundation of our legal system. According to the ACLU, the displaying of the Ten Commandments in a public courthouse, even in the context of their being among many documents that represent the development of the legal system of our Federal Goverhment, makes the statement that a specific religion is seen as a part of the foundation of our western civilization. Because of this, the display is promoting this religion, which is a violation of our First Amendment, and so is unacceptable.

This following statement was found on the ACLU website:

"The Ten Commandments advocate believing in God, observing the Sabbath
and not worshipping idols," Friedman added, noting that different
faiths have different versions of the document. "Those are religious
beliefs that should be left to each individual. Especially in a courthouse,
people should not be made to feel like outsiders in their own community
because they may not share the prevailing religious view."

cont...

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 04:08 AM

cont...

The following statement was found at:
http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=17598&c=38

The right of each and every American to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The Constitution's framers understood very well that religious liberty can flourish only if the government leaves religion alone.

The American Civil Liberties Union has a long history of working to ensure that religious liberty is protected. From the famous 1920 Scopes trial—in which the ACLU challenged a Tennessee law prohibiting the teaching of evolution in schools—to the current Ten Commandments case before the Supreme Court, the ACLU remains committed to keeping the government out of the religion business and protecting every American's right to believe as he or she wishes.

Does something sound strangely hypocritical, not to mention evasive, about all of this?
I would like to know why the ACLU, our press, and our politicians have remained silent for fourteen years about the passage of Public Bill 102-14, and this obvious violation of our First Amendment guarantee of our right to worship God as we choose and the guarantee that our government will not establish a state religion, while at the same time the ACLU attacks legitimate public expressions and displays of religious-oriented material, such as the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, and Nativity scenes at Christmas.

As a Christian, I personally would prefer not to be decapitated because of my faith. I am concerned that the day is close at hand.

I am enclosing a copy of the brief the ACLU filed on behalf of the McCreary County Courthouse display. This brief represents just one of many briefs written, and a small fraction of the thousands if not millions of hours spent on research and court time by the ACLU staff around the nation, so to ensure that any public acknowledgment of faith in God is eradicated from our society. Why did no one say anything about the Noahide Laws?

http://www.aclu.org/court/court.cfm?ID=17476&c=286

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 04:57 AM

Yaakov2,

Many laws written by Congress start with explaining the reasons for what they are doing. These reasons appear as “Whereas” statements.

The reasons are the meat of the law.
'Legalese' is hard for many to understand. Ive been studying the Constitution deeply for several years now and a 'Blacks Law dictionary' is quite handy.

A couple of examples:
1. Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded;

That sounds good so far, it makes me think of the Ten Commandments of God.

2. Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws;

Hold on just a darn minute here! Whats this? Noahides laws??? Ive never read anything in the founding of the United States of America or by the Founding Fathers about Noahide laws.

No where, no how, no time, period.

The Ten Commandments yes! They are the basis of natural law for ALL mankind.

Noahide laws are just some "Jewish fairy tale" as the Apostle Paul would put it.

They have no business being public law and they are unconstitutional.

I found further proclamations online for 2002 and 2003.

They are Presidents proclaimations and make no mention of Noahide laws. The Congressional bill made law in 1991 added the Noahide laws to the Rebbe's birthday proclaimation. Which to my knowledge was the last Congressional proclaimation and all preceding proclaimations made no mention of them.

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 05:34 AM

Yaakov2,

Also, the Noahide Laws are nothing awful.

At 1st glance I would agree with you but if I examine them from a Christians point of view, they look a lot different when one shines a light on them.

Lets take the 1st one for example.

I. No idolatry
(per Dr. Aaron Lichtenstein, based on the Rambam)
1. "Against entertaining the thought that there exists a deity except Hashem." (Negative 1)
2. "Against making any graven image [& against having anyone else make one for us]." (Negative 2)
3. "Against making idols for use by others." (Negative 3)
4. "Against making any forbidden statues [even when they are for ornamental purposes]." (Negative 4)
5. "Against bowing to any idol [& not to sacrifice nor to pour libation nor to burn incense before any idol, even where it is not the customary manner of worship to the particular idol]." (Negative 5)
6. "Against worshipping idols in any of their customary manners of worship." (Negative 6)
7. "Against causing our children to pass [through the fire] in the worship of Molech." (Negative 7)
8. "Against practicing Ov." (Negative 8)
9. "Against practicing Yiddoni." (Negative 9)
10. "Against turning to idolatry [in word, in thought, in deed, or by any observance that may draw us to its worship]." (Negative 10)
http://www.noahide.com/lawslist.htm

I'm a Christian. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

I love Him and He is my Messiah.

I proudly proclaim Jesus Christ as my God.

I refuse to deny the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do I have anything to worry about as a practicing Christian when it comes to the Noahide laws concerning Idolatry?

Did the Rebbe give any practical advice on how to carry out the Noachide campaign?

Encouraging the abandonment of Christianity: "...according to the known Jewish legal ruling that Christians are idol worshippers.

--Likutei Sichos 37:198, from a letter of the Rebbe dated 26 Iyra, 5726, cited in Kol Boi HaOlam, p. 389.
http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 06:18 AM

Yaakov2,

Ive read many of your posts and Ive noticed the many times you ridicule the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. You always complain of Christians pushing their religion on others.

I find the following below very pushy.

The Hasidic Gentile Campaign: The Rebbe Speaks

What is the primary mission for our generation to accomplish?
The main avodah of this generation is to go out to the final war of the golus, to conquer and to purify all the gentile countries (such that "and kingship will be Hashem's," Ovadiah 1:21).

The unique innovation in the Previous Rebbe's service is the dissemination of Torah and Judaism and the wellsprings of Chasidus outward to the entire world, including the effect on the non-Jews.

Did the Rebbe indicate that there is a danger in putting off the Noachide campaign?
In these critical times, when nations are challenging one another and violence is increasing in an unbelievable manner, the Jews have the power to bring about peace in the entire world.... Ideally, a Jew should stand proudly before the gentiles and explain to them the Seven Noachide Laws, emphasizing that they should be carried out not because they appear to be logically sound, but because G-d commanded them.... When a Jew carries out mitzvos with pride, a non-Jew stands in awe of him and, hence, will not consider war.

The Seven Laws must be explained in a way that the nations can relate to and, because non-Jews do not possess genuine free will, they will be willing to change more quickly and easily than a Jew.

Aren't we busy enough working with Jews? Can we really afford to divert time and money to the campaign to transform the gentiles?
[T]he Rambam uses the expression, "lakuf ("to forcefully influence") all inhabitants of the world to accept the Noachide commands." Although obviously one must do this in a pleasant, gentle, and peaceful way, it still must be done with persistence. If you have already tried several times, try again nevertheless. We frequently see that although people are sometimes spoken to five times, they do not change until they hear it a sixth time!

This is only part of what is said. Go to the link for all. http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm
The following articles explain why Christianity does not fulfill G-d's will: http://www.noahide.com/xtianity.htm

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 07:34 AM

Yaakov2,

Don’t bother with your twistings on Talmud. It will just be a bunch of out-of-context quotes that I have seen many times before.

I'm sorry you feel that way but I understand it. Ive seen examples of it done here on factnet left and right.
The only thing I was gonna post was the differences between a Jew and a non-Jew when brought up on charges, and brought before a court system under Talmund law. Those differences are plain to see and very unequal.

Men and women have different duties.

I agree, but fail to see the significance when discussing the obvious unequality between Jew and non-Jew found in the Talmund as to penalties and requirements for judging.

Do you believe men and women are unequal?

Thats an hilarious twist on the subject of the equality of Jew and non-Jew. Are you looking for a yes/no answer? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif I'll let you answer that question. Thats a good one.

"Come into my web said the spider to the fly."

In accepting Christ as your Messiah, Jew and non-Jew alike have an equal chance in standing closer to God. I think that is a wonderful thing.

plow_deep

07-06-2006, 07:57 AM

In accepting Christ as your Messiah, Jew and non-Jew alike have an equal chance in standing closer to God. I think that is a wonderful thing.

Male and Female too!!!

Sorry for leaving that out Ladies...I'm tired and done for the night.

abiyah

07-06-2006, 02:11 PM

Plow_deep WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" Noahide laws are just some "Jewish fairy tale" "
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Morning to you ALL !

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gifHmmmmm.... Never heard of Noah's laws ? I've heard of Noah, but not any laws ?
Oh well....

Yaakov WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" Exodus 23:19 The choicest first fruit of your land shall you bring to the House of HaShem, your G-d; you shall not cook a kid in the milk of its mother.

The prohibition against cooking meak and milk applies to all ages and species of sheep and cattle. Rabbinic Law extended it to all kosher meat and fowl. "
-------------------------------------------------

Now... I noticed yaakov that you stated that Rabbinic law was "EXTENTED" to include ALL meat and bird. And birds ... ? Do they produce milk that we as flesh man intake ? How can one boil a baby chicken in its mother milk ? Is that possible ? As I'm not sure if a 'fowl' produces milk ? And is it wise for ' man ' to do such a thing, you know.... " extend " The Laws of God ? Man is so small, and God, The Creator of ALL THINGS with ALL Power and Authority, why would some ' add ' to that ? I mean no disrespect to the traditions of your fathers, but God's Laws are very detailed, and He has left NOTHING undone, or unsaid when bringing forth His Laws & Commandments, Nor did He ever forget to mention something. So then why
" extend " His Laws ? Do you think that was wise for them to do ?

Abiyah

smyrna

07-07-2006, 01:42 PM

Hello Abiyah,

This site will give a brief intro to Noahide laws:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/noahide.html

Now, on another subject, did Pastor Arnold Murrry really break his arm?
I was unable to watch the SC program the week I guess it was announced, but since "Whackchild" (who is hardly a source for reliable information) is the one who joyfully shared this news with us, I ask for some confirmation.

abiyah

07-07-2006, 01:50 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Good Morning to you Smyrna !

And peace be upon your heart; Yes, yes.... pastor Murray did have a little accident while working on his farm, and he did break his arm. However, he has since had his surgery to correct the break, and is regaining full use of his arm and hand once again. His surgery went very, very well, and he is healing fine by The Hand of our Father.

Agape,

Abiyah

smyrna

07-07-2006, 02:48 PM

Thank you Abiyah,

Pastor Murray is a tough guy. I have no doubts our eighty-plus year old Pastor will be back at his desk in no time.

It's really sad, but I find myself wondering how many other opponents of SC have cheered silently when hearing the news.

I have no doubt that when God calls Pastor Murray home, thse same folks will openly express their delight that is is gone from our midst. But we will have Dennis, and David, if need be, and when they are gone, God will raise up another, as he has already, for their are many fine teachers in this world.
I guess I'm not a very good cult member, as our friendly opponents of SC want me to be, but I have a great regard for the writings of the early Church Fathers such as Augustine,Tertullian, Irenaeus, et. al. and of course the Desert Fathers have always been a source of edification for me.
They did,as is commonly exprssed, illuminate the Scriotures by applying Scripture to their own lives, and then writing so eloquently about their experiences of conversion, and perseverance to faith in Jesus Christ.

What I find incredibly sad, is that so many fundamentalists hate the Catholic Church so much that they would never read any writings that were written by anyone called a "saint" as if it was such a bad thing to be honored in such a way. There is a richness to their writings that I find lacking in the writings of other Churches, with few exceptions.

Certainly I also greatly admire some of the Popes, in particular the late John Paul II, as well as Benedict XVI. John XXIII also comes to mind.

I went and saw Billy Graham in New Orleans earlier this year, I have always admired this great Christian leader.

So to all those folks who who want so badly to think of me as a SC cult member, I say, to them, sorry, but once again, you are wrong.

(Message edited by smyrna on July 07, 2006)

abiyah

07-07-2006, 03:59 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Good Morning to you once again Symrna;

Your above post here has moved my heart, for I can see your love for your brothers and sisters, your family IN Christ which are in another denomination, yet are Christians nevertheless. We are not to ' judge ' the actions of other denominations or preacher, teachers of God's Word, but rather discern, and I believe that all must go where The Spirit leds. You are very intellectual in my own opinion, and I can see where you enjoy the readings of many of your fellow labourers IN Christ from times past, I see nothing wrong with that. The main thing, and that which is most important is that you follow Christ our Lord, Immanuel = God WITH us; first and foremost. And I can see that you do Symrna. As for the ' other ' folks.... well, let them not trouble the heart, for they must first remove the beam that is in their own eye, before they can remove the twig that may be in the eye of another. Many 'folks' say the things they say in utter and complete ignorance, for they lack the true wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, which can ONLY come from The Holy Spirit, as they've been starved, and though this is no excuse for that which they may say, yet it is something to consider. So then Peace be upon you always Symrna. And indeed I'm thankful to have such a fine fellow labourer IN Christ our Lord, who is willing to bring forth the meat which is IN God's Word, and stand for that which is True.

God Bless,
Abiyah

smyrna

07-07-2006, 04:57 PM

Abiyah,
Thank you your words were very kind.
I have no animosity against those who disagree with us. However, I will not allow them to indulge in their deceptions and game playing. If tyhye show themselves to be repeatedly disruptive and contentious, and time after time they will not participate in our discussions constructively, then I have no choice but to basically ignore them, and suggest other to do so as well.

I am not here in this forum to convert anyone, though it would be nice to see thse adults rid themselves of their childish beliefs.

I once believed in hal Lindey's books. I once believed that Noah put every animal known to man on his ark. But over time I began to learn that once I was an adult, I could research for myself and find that truth can be at times elusive, because so many of thse traditions have obscured the message of God's Word. Not all of it was born of evil.

It would be admittedly difficult, for instance, to teach children the story of Eve's seduction in Eden, especially in our culture, which has almost denigrated sex of any kind,. Even after the days of the Puritans,where, I even hesitate to say this but it is reality so I will, thought any sexual position other than man on top was considered evil, we are still squeamish to talk about sex to children.

Now that is one example. There are others. Science does not deny the Binble, the use of it in incorrect ways does. Scinece allows us to see the reality of God's Word. It won't allow us, at least without a great degree of difficulty, to beleive in a boat that would contain every living animal, even if Noah did go on a world wide safari and was able to capture them without harm.
Science tells us that the story of Noah and Mrs. Noah having children of every race is not in the design God created for man.

Sociological studies of ancient culture tells us that tribes of different races lived peacefully together for great periods of time, but that both or more of those tribes of different races prohibited intermingling for procreative purposes.

Chapel opponents call those prohibitions evidence of racism. I call it merely the will of other cultures to protect the natural course of what they were born onto and how they regarded their tribal identities. There is nothing evil or racist about that.

Before the agittaors and hecklers jump on that, I will not claim that the Chaple would not marry an inter-racial couple, I simply do not know if they would or not.All I know is that if they did, they would have a Biblical reason for doing so. Would all Christians beleive it? You already know that answer.

I see one of the hecklers has a real issue with dispensationalism. Well, since dispensationalism at least helps us come to terms with the issue of slavery, perhaps she should think about that for a while, or otherwise she may want to go out and get herself a slave, so she can spend more time harrassing people on Factnet.

godchild

07-07-2006, 05:26 PM

smyrna, You are a trouble-maker and liar. I don't laugh over other's injuries or pain. You are fully aware (since you love twisting my words) that I was ridiculing the scer's reaction to it, not the injury itself. Their reaction was 'two-faced' having just discussed how people will be punished for their sins, then a poster mentions am breaking his arm, and they are suddenly so concerned. Their previous stand doesn't hold when something happens to one they revere. The very thought would be blasphemous. They don't even see how 'twisted' their logic is. And neither, obviously, do you. That's your problem, not mine.

You all can attempt to besmirch me as a person all you like, but that is only because you can't deal with the truth of the message I share. am is a fraud! Sure has you buffaloed. Those giants you speak of; were they walking in soft rocks when they left those huge footprints? I saw a mountain top one time named for a great indian warrior. It was shaped like a chief's head. Do you think it is really one of 'your giants' petrified? Of course it must be! Suddenly I believe everything you say. This is EVIDENCE! Wow!
Those humungous men must have had really, really tiny penises, to be able to have sex with human women. Can't you sc women imagine the pain of having a sequoia shoved up you? And the birth's must have really been something to see. An exposion, maybe. The meat you folks bring forth is really more than I can imagine except in fairy tales. Thanks, but I outgrew that long, long ago. You've got it all figured out when men were on the earth as opposed to the dinosaurs. You call this scriptural. Come on now.
Now don't get all pushed out of shape. I'm only funning with you. You must see the absurdity of your words. If I couldn't laugh over it, I would have to believe you all did a 'houdini' and escaped the straightjackets. There's just no other sensible conclusion even a mildly intelligent person can come to.
God bless,
Vivian

danispeachy

07-07-2006, 05:49 PM

"It's really sad, but I find myself wondering how many other opponents of SC have cheered silently when hearing the news. "

When it comes to such behavior I think of a line from that old show Designing Women...(I'm paraphrasing here) "If God handed out illness for peoples sin, you my dear would be at the free clinic all the time."

:D

damon

07-07-2006, 06:06 PM

danis,

"If God handed out illness for peoples sin, you my dear would be at the free clinic all the time."

I really like that saying. I hope I remember it for a long time.

plow_deep

07-07-2006, 07:47 PM

I am totally amazed that a so called Christian organisation would sponser the page of the 7 Noahide laws posted at Auburn and not explain what it means for a Christian to submit to them.

There is no mention at all that a Christian must abandon his Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to obey those laws.

Atleast if you explore the JAHG-USA site I posted, it is honest about the fact they consider Christians as Idolaters.

Let me quote Rabbi 'The Rebbe' 'Rambam' Schneerson again:
"The Seven Laws must be explained in a way that the nations can relate to and, because non-Jews do not possess genuine free will, they will be willing to change more quickly and easily than a Jew."

All I can say is that he is right.

Due to the ignorance and brainwashing from the media and most churches today, the average Christian really doesnt possess genuine free will.

Did the Rebbe give any practical advice on how to carry out the Noachide campaign?

Encouraging the abandonment of Christianity: "...according to the known Jewish legal ruling that Christians are idol worshippers.--Likutei Sichos 37:198, from a letter of the Rebbe dated 26 Iyra, 5726, cited in Kol Boi HaOlam, p. 389.

No matter how much Yaakov2 tries to deceive you into believing otherwise, the whole basis for making the Noahide laws into our public law is to set-up an international system based on Judaic law. Equal justice means two separate court systems. One system for Jews and one system for non-Jews.

There is nothing equal about it and its right around the corner for Americans. In the last few years, courses on Talmund law have been added to Law Schools across the country.

Why is this?

Because we have no genuine freewill left to be able to check things out for ourselves, or much less, attempt to do anything about it.

abiyah

07-07-2006, 08:47 PM

Plow_Deep WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" ..... the whole basis for making the Noahide laws into our public law is to set-up an international system based on Judaic law. Equal justice means two separate court systems. One system for Jews and one system for non-Jews.

There is nothing equal about it and its right around the corner for Americans. In the last few years, courses on Talmund law have been added to Law Schools across the country. "
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGood Afternoon Plow_Deep;

And Peace unto you my friend. : ) Interesting post, while very disturbing at the same time. I'd like to hear what ' they ' would say to the reason their having talmund law taught in our American Law Schools ? Educational systems.... is that not one of the four 'hidden' dynasties ? Yes... indeed it is.

God Bless,

Abiyah

godchild

07-07-2006, 10:31 PM

How wonderful that Christians don't have to concern themselves with such things, knowing that the Lord is our strength and our salvation. We are in the world, but not of it. Praise God.

godchild

07-07-2006, 10:40 PM

Oh, I just remembered a comment made by the scer's about the animals on Noah's ark (which they don't believe anyway, but for the sake of correction, I will post this):

Seven of each kind of clean animal and two of each kind of other animals were taken on the ark (Genesis 6:19-20; 7:2-3). By “clean” the Bible means animals that were "acceptable for sacrifice." That is why seven of the clean animals were taken – so they could be sacrificed after the Flood was over. Obviously if there were only two of an animal, a male and a female, and one was sacrificed - that species of animal would become extinct.

I really don't understand why you people use the Holy Bible at all. You exclude most of it, and change what little you do agree with. God help you.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 10:59 PM

Re last post: WOTNWR

ezekiel_37

07-08-2006, 12:09 AM

I thought it was 7 pairs of clean animals, and 2 pair of unclean?

Which bible do you read gc?

in His service
c

angie0401

07-08-2006, 12:33 AM

Vivian,
You ALWAYS get this way when you're caught in your dirty little lies and deception. You know, even a 4 year old understands that YHVH sees what's in your heart. Wonder what He sees in yours? A desire to help others or a desire to be right; a Spirit of love or a Spirit of hate? Are you ready to stand before God and listen to what He thinks of your deeds? Only you can answer that within your own heart and I think you know very well that you have much pride, hate and arrogance dwelling within you. I pray that you look within yourself before it's too late.

watchman_2

07-08-2006, 02:03 AM

plow_deep,

I appreciate your insight and in-depth analysis on the Noahide laws.

It is my opinion, that such corruption of Judaism can only be explained by the Kenites, that pretend to be Jews. As you pointed out, their objective is to destroy Christianity.

plow_deep

07-08-2006, 03:11 AM

How wonderful that Christians don't have to concern themselves with such things, knowing that the Lord is our strength and our salvation. We are in the world, but not of it. Praise God.

The above comment is one of the biggest reasons the 'rapture theory' is so dangerous to a Christian.

Rapturists dont care that a court system is being set-up in the world that will persecute Christians. They dont have to stand up against an anti-Christ system. Why should they care? They are gonna be secretly raptured out of harms way.

Well that maybe okay for them, but I will always stand up for the Lord Jesus Christ, and do whatever I can to expose any anti-Christ system that comes along in the world while I'm living and breathing on this earth.

How sad it is that some Christians are so conditioned to just 'roll over' and allow these systems to creep into their communities.

May God have mercy on them.

Thank God Almighty that there are some Christians out there that will heed the warning signs and do what they can to stand against such an abomination.

Good evening to you Abiyah,

Talmund law is the basis for Communitarian law.
A Communitarian system covers all four of the 'hidden' dynasties. They are not really so hidden anymore...they are just not reported on in the mainstream media.

Ive been studying it for quite some time and still find it quite confusing to piece together. A good site to learn about these things without being overwhelmed is www.newswithviews.com (http://www.newswithviews.com) . The site is filled with many good Christian writers that have done the research on the programs being stealthly implimented into our society.
I highly recommend writings by Republican Rep. Ron Paul, Dr. Steven Yates (especially his matrix series), Dr. Edwin Vieira (The foremost scholar on Constitutional Issues), Nancy Levant,(U.N. programs, agenda21), to name just a few of the many good writers.

My only intentions are to warn my fellow Christians and anyone else that is concerned and cares about what is happening around them.

I will stay busy working in the fields, as I believe my Lord Jesus Christ expects me to. My love for Him will not allow me to stand idle and do nothing.

God Bless

plow_deep

07-08-2006, 03:20 AM

Thanks Watchman2,

Your post got in between while I was pondering what to post.

Peace to you and yours.

david_munson

07-08-2006, 04:59 PM

Plow_deep,
you said that "Rapturists dont care that a court system is being set-up in the world that will persecute Christians. They dont have to stand up against an anti-Christ system."

I have to say you are way off here.
I believe in the rapture and I am in constant resist mode concerning these things you say we don't involve ourselves in.

Not only have I contacted Ambassidor Bolton (UN) but also my Congress and Senate representatives more than once week concerning a range of Christian concerns.

You are broad brushing way too much here.

It is every resoncible Christians duty to be involved in the political process so that we insure that rights (which have been bought with the blood of our soldiers) will remain intact.

This is an ongoing battle that will never end until the feet of Christ hit the mount of Olives.
---
Are you aware for instance that the UN (United Nothing) met during our independance holiday to adopt a charter for the sole purpose of undermining our Constitution so that they,an international body of member states that hate America,can take away the individual citizens rights to firearm ownership?

This would basically be an invasion by a foreign entity.

Yes I believe in the rapture but what gives you the right to decide what I think and do when in fact you know nothing about me or any other "rapturist"?

You say we sit around and don't walk the fields seeking the lost?
I say you make delerious statements when you talk crap like that.(maybe it is better to say "out the side of your mouth?")

Belief in the rapture is more motivation to reach the lost since we want every one who will to come to the Lord in faith,trusting in His atonement to be given the chance to hear the Good News.

Numbering our days is also a good motivation to reach out since we don't know when we may have to leave,be it by death or translation.

Today is the acceptable day of salvation.

}

smyrna

07-08-2006, 05:12 PM

Munsun writing letters to Bolton? I can only imagine what those letters say. Too bad those men in white coats don't go around locking up goofballs anyomore.
Maybe they'll make an exception in this case.
I can only hope he didn't mention the rapture!

dave_munson

07-08-2006, 05:22 PM

What a maroon!
Attack me because I'm involved in trying to stop the UN from assailing our sovereignty as a nation.

You really are a hypocrit aren't you!?
---
I didn't mention the rature.What has that got to do with maintaining the integrity of our national entity?
---

I get it now.
You're just looking for ways to attack others.
Hypocrit.

}

david_munson

07-08-2006, 05:29 PM

Smyrna has an agenda.
Smyrna likes to engage in "character assasination."

Clueless hypocrit.

}

smyrna

07-08-2006, 06:25 PM

re last post: WOTNWR

However, I certainly hope Mr. Munsun shares with us any reply he may receive from the U.N. But I'll add this caveat: I hope he doesn't concoct a fake reply. If he does, I'll notify the proper authorites who investigate forgery of official government communications.

I don't have to prove any reply he presents is fake, I will only have to ask that the communique be verified.

godchild

07-08-2006, 07:09 PM

Dave, I wouldn't be too concerned. Let's look at some of the garbage am has to say to his goats:

Good day to you. Arnold Murray here at the Shepherd's Chapel.
Well hey, we've got a situation cooking in the Middle East at this time. In the Mediterranean, going all the way across the Euphrates, all the way across the OLD city of Babylon and Baghdad and clear up to Iran. With that you cover a great deal of Bible history. And the situation of the armies gathering sure reminds you of Luke 21. But especially with Iran IS NOT backing down.
And the religious, you may think they have a president. It is not the president that runs the country even though he's a fruitcake. It's the mullahs who head religion ever since Khomeni, the so called church has ruled the nation. And they're on a religious fervor for being independent and doing what God `so called' tells them. And they intend to have an atomic weapon, it would appear at this time. So that means there's going to be some things really get hot in the old town before this gets over with.
to be cont.

godchild

07-08-2006, 07:13 PM

cont.
And in as much, you want to be, you want to be prepared and remember one thing. Iran is not populated with Arabs. They are Persian so to speak, or old Persians. They are not Arab peoples. So will the Arabs stick with them because of religion? Not necessarily. But at the same time, if the Arabs were to join with the Iranians, Persians and they were all to come against Israel--boy she would be (?) front, back, center, and ALL THE WAY around. And it would take quite a feat to accomplish something against it. Our Father's in control. And I'm only saying this because its still some time away, but a short time that you're going to see something give. Somebody's going to blink. And Iran will either back down or we will be fighting with Iran. Its, that's the way it is.

Pakistan, you know they gave us permission to take out those four al Qaeda leaders. But because of the leadership, he, this general in charge now must disavow that he gave us permission because the people in that quadrant will not accept and follow him. But you see, the terrorists are trying to k ill the president of Pakistan anyway so he has to try to catch them as we do to take them out of their misery. I still am waiting to see something permanent, or pertinent or timely to prove that we did not get who we went after. We haven't heard from him except an old tape made prior to that. Keep your eyes open.
Arnold Murray. Shepherd's Chapel.

godchild

07-08-2006, 07:18 PM

Want some more?
Good day to you. Arnold Murray here at the Shepherd's Chapel.

Well, hey, we're got a great hearing going on and we have senators showing their STUFF (pm emphasis). If you really want to know what kind of STUFF they're made out of just listen to some of the questioning they will do to Judge Alito, who has a really good record. He's a conservative, a Christian, and he knows right from wrong, and has proved himself by the decisions he has made. Just what we need on the Supreme Court to have a good balance, to put a bunch of nonsense out of this nation. So mark each one of these senators as they CHOOSE and try to condemn those that will straighten in out where the freakos can't take God out of their Pledge of Allegiance for little children, and protect the rights of all religions in this nation especially Christianity that's being bashed at this time by leftist agenda both from Hollywood and other places. We don't need this kind of stuff. And we need a court that represents we the people. Not a judgeship and not just one little liberal offshoot of whackos but absolutely represents we the people that have voted in both the congress, the senate and the president to have things made straight and have them made right again. We don't play partisan politics. We just play what is right and fair for all religions and all people. That's to say WE THE PEOPLE. We the people of this great nation. So this is the time you want to keep REALLY alert. Watch what things come out of the mouths of these so called senators.
to be cont.

godchild

07-08-2006, 07:22 PM

cont.
Many of them are good men. Some of them you can tell by listening to them which camp and which egg they hatched out of. You know we need people representing this nation that represent we the people rather than their own little agendas or whoever pays them the most money to speak for what. You know, the far, where the pinkos get their money from those people insist that they make many of these statements and yet they'll vote still a different way. We don't need people that can be bought. That's prostitution. And you've got, we don't need prostitutes in our senate that will sell themselves. We need men and women that stand up for our nation and we the people. That's what's important.

And so, the situation looks real good around the world at this time. You know the terrorists themselves are trying to take advantage of the commotion that takes place both in Israel and around the world. Don't worry. God's in control and we've got the victory.

Arnold Murray here at the Shepherd's Chapel. God bless. Again, watch real close. Don't forget. God's watching also. God bless. Have a good day.
-------------------------------
Coming from the mouth of one who claims to be speaking for God. Yeah, right!

godchild

07-08-2006, 07:35 PM

Now what does the Bible say:
2 Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privally will bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
verses 9-11 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptious are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusations against them before the Lord.

smyrna

07-08-2006, 07:36 PM

re last post: WOTNWR

Note: since Godchild has shown anyone with a brain, and I mean that, that she is incapable of participating in these discussions in any meaningful way, and by her ridiculous claim that no one can dedicate their whole lives to Christ unless they are full time ministers (while at the same time she claims the world doesn't really need ministers)I won't even respond to her posts with the acronym anymore. I'll just ignore her posts completely.

Of course, I'll predict that she will still try and get me to reply to them, by making more outlandish statements. It won't work, I can assure you.

But if you can't see she is off the wall, just plain looneytunes, then it is your problem, not mine.
I'm not even going to read them, because I know it will be just more of the same garbage.

david_munson

07-08-2006, 07:46 PM

Smyrna says,"But I'll add this caveat: I hope he doesn't concoct a fake reply."
---
This is indicative of a mindset that thinks only evil of others.
There was no reasonable excuse for this little insert except to denigrate.

You Smyrna are one to engage in character assassinations.

Thank you for showing your true nature.

}

godchild

07-08-2006, 07:50 PM

smyrna

07-08-2006, 08:02 PM

Hello Readers,

Would it be out of line for me to try and prevent
someone from deceiving you or me, if I suspected that they were capable of trying to do so?
And would it be natural for anyone who has witnessed time after time someone who has tried over and over to decieve, into trying to prevent another attempt at doing so?
And finally, would I be out of line if I didn't note that a perpetrator would be angry when he got caught planning to deceive someone?
Sometimes, we are led to assumptions by a person's prior behavior.

Would it be wrong to presume that a burglar, for instance, who gets caught sneaking around soemone's house at night was planning to burglarize it?
And if he was questioned, would he automatically admit that he was planning to?

Are you getting the picture, folks? If not, read Munsun's post above.

plow_deep

07-08-2006, 10:42 PM

Dave,

you said that "Rapturists dont care that a court system is being set-up in the world that will persecute Christians. They dont have to stand up against an anti-Christ system.

Yep, I sure did, right after reading what this quote by someone who pushs the Rapture doctrine.

How wonderful that Christians don't have to concern themselves with such things, knowing that the Lord is our strength and our salvation. We are in the world, but not of it. Praise God.

I find it quite sad that she obviously doesnt care and tries to discourage those who do.

I have to say you are way off here.
I believe in the rapture and I am in constant resist mode concerning these things you say we don't involve ourselves in.

I'm glad you are in constant resist mode. I believe all that follow Christ should be. Especially here in the U.S., for as Americans, We are the government. I totally despise any attempts to turn our government and courts into an anti-christ system.

Not only have I contacted Ambassidor Bolton (UN) but also my Congress and Senate representatives more than once week concerning a range of Christian concerns.

I'm glad to here your not blinded by your doctrine and sit by and do nothing.

You are broad brushing way too much here.

You are correct. I allowed Godchilds asinine statement to cause me to speak in anger and haste. From your speaking up I see I was wrong to group all Rapturists into the same narrow mindset as hers. My apologies.

Some folks here just bring out the worst in people no matter what side of an issue they stand on.

You say we sit around and don't walk the fields seeking the lost?

Thats not what I said at all. Lets read it again in full context.

"My only intentions are to warn my fellow Christians and anyone else that is concerned and cares about what is happening around them."

"I will stay busy working in the fields, as I believe my Lord Jesus Christ expects me to. My love for Him will not allow me to stand idle and do nothing."

Thats means "I will" Dave, 'as will' every concerned Christian, which from your post means you Dave.

You are too caught up in defending your doctrine.

Today is the acceptable day of salvation.

Yes it is, and nobody has to believe the 'Rapture Theory' to obtain it.