The Cult Of AntiTruth [Archive]

smyrna

06-07-2006, 08:16 PM

I have been on the web since 1996. Since that time, I've participated in a number of discussion boards. I've met many interesting people, and even made some friends.
But there have been some rough times too.I've had people send me viruses, myself and serveral Shepherd's Chapel students were all thrown off the CARM.org forums because the publisher, Matt Slick, couldn't take the fact we had throughly disgraced those who hung on to the childish explanation of Noah and the flood that sadly even some adults believe.
But nowhere, nowhere on the Internet have I seen such a concentration of individuals that are incapable or otherwise disinterested in sensible discussion without playing games.
Twisting words, conveniently ommitting material presented to them so they can prop up their already weak positions, and refusing to answer questions that have been repeatedly posed to them, and other tactics are used to deceive, cajole, and create diversions.
I've met these types from time to time, but to have five of them on one forum is really something unprecedented.
But, I won't let it go to waste. I have plenty of material for my website. This material will show other Shepherd's Chapel members how to spot these tactics, and what to do when dealing with people like this.

Those who engage in such game playing when there are sincere people seeking truth, are against even the search for truth.

Therefore, they compose a cult of anti-truth.
Anti-truth people intentionally divert people from truth. They create diversions to hide truth. They hate truth, because they will do anything to try and obscure truth.
Just read the discussions. Pay very close attention to Godchild, Arron, LLM, Franklin, and David Munsun on the Shepherd's Chapel threads.
There is no way you will not be able to see the games, the tactics, the deceptions these people are clearly guilty of using.
It is no longer prudent for me at least, to try and engage them in discussion, because of their behavior.
The cult of anti-truth, beware of those who love to obscure the search for it!

franklin

06-07-2006, 08:20 PM

That's a laugh! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

SC and Arnold Murray are definitely the Cult of Anti Truth. Racist theology has no place in the body of Christ.

dream_truth

06-07-2006, 08:21 PM

Well said smyrna. I have observed the same thing you are talking about.
I have been able to engage in some very helpful conversations with others on this board, and very often the discussions get interupted and thrown way off course by the individuals using the tactics you describe. It becomes very difficult to engage in a mature debate.
I will admit I have been guilty of letting these individuals get the best of me at times.

franklin

06-07-2006, 08:37 PM

So dream truth, are you agreeing with smyrna that only white people are descended from Adam? And that the Kenites are descended from satan and Eve? And that satan and Adam had sexual intercourse? And that the Celtics and Anglo Saxons are God's chosen people? The elite?

And you Smyrna, so do you believe like dream truth that there is no God? Jesus was just a man if He lived at all? That any spiritual experience is actually psychotic imagination? That anyone who believes in God is a simpleton like a child that believes in the tooth fairy and Santa Clause?

I knew that politics made strange bed fellows but religion too?

I've said the same things about you two and both of your fellow wolf pack members. You two should be the last to call the kettle black!

smyrna

06-07-2006, 08:40 PM

Franklin: WOTNWR

franklin

06-07-2006, 08:41 PM

dt and smyrna: a mature debate to you two is when everyone is agreeing with you.

Like I suggested before I think the wanna be atheist and the serpent seeder wolf packs out to have their own thread off to themselves and have it out! Factnet could raise money by selling tickets to the 2 wolf packs fighting it out!

smyrna

06-07-2006, 08:45 PM

Dream_truth,

Thank you. And like I said, it's the tactics they use that should not be tolerated. You see them, I see them, and even those who do not agree with Chapel teachings see what these five individuals (see initital post)are up to.
They are really preventing more sensible people from even seeking truth. They can't be stopped, but we don't have to pay much attention to them.
WOTNWR: Waste of Time, Not Worth Rebuttal is how I will acknowledge their posts, if I give them that much.

smyrna

06-07-2006, 08:47 PM

Franklin: WOTNWR

terluvire

06-08-2006, 01:33 AM

Good beginning post smyrna!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

watchman_2

06-08-2006, 01:46 AM

I agree smyrna. I think that I will start one too.

Your analysis of these people is so true.

david_munson

06-09-2006, 05:21 PM

AN "US AGAINST THEM" ATTITUDE AND PHILOSOPHY: Anyone who challenges the cult's doctrine is automatically branded as an enemy which is usually anyone who disagrees. The cultists feel that they are being persecuted unfairly. On the other hand, true Christians accept persecution, knowing that it tests the genuineness of their faith. New members are told Satan will cause friends and family to say bad things about their group and that they should only trust their new family. We should expect to be persecute for the truth we have. It becomes an 'us against them' mentality. clichés are given, such as "Who is more important, God or school?' or "Don't you love God with all your heart, don’t you trust us, do you know of anyone who cares about you more?" "We are the only ones who have the truth," "don’t you want to be found faithful."

}

david_munson

06-09-2006, 05:22 PM

END-TIME REVELATION: Special insights into the end of the world and the second coming of Jesus Christ are claimed. The book of revelation is mostly used ,among other immediate prophecies. Koresh claimed an exclusive understanding of the "seven seals" in Revelation, and believed that he was the one ordained to open them. Elizabeth C. Prophet of the church universal has prophecies from ascended masters telling about the end times.

}

david_munson

06-09-2006, 05:24 PM

LEADERS HAVE A PRIDEFUL UNTEACHABLE SPIRIT: The attitude that "no one can Judge me or tell me what to do" is fostered by pride the leader is in deception and promotes deception to the followers. The leader becomes untouchable by anyone. He is accountable to God only and everyone must obey what he says like it is Gods words. Included in this is the attitude that 'we are always right" from the leadership. When Hobart Freeman began Faith Assembly, loyalty to him and his teachings were to be accepted without question. To question Freeman, a self-acknowledged "prophet of God" was to risk the charge of blasphemy. Many people died including himself from his teaching on healing. This continues today by the word/faith movement and believing for your healing. All false doctrine has pride as its catalyst and arrogance as its practice.

}

david_munson

06-09-2006, 05:25 PM

PRIDE OF THE GROUP: We are the only ones who are right. If you are not one of us, then you are destined for hell. Correct doctrine is used by them alone to the exclusion of any others, they alone have the truth so one must join them to be saved. they have an us against them attitude which can be very dangerous.

They appoint new "inside" meanings to ordinary words or the use of an exclusive vocabulary subtly moving a person to want to become a member. A appearance of false Spirituality is given from the language. What was formerly known by a certain phrase or word now has a new meaning behind it.

}

david_munson

06-09-2006, 05:29 PM

These are just a few symptoms of an unhealthy church that you should look out for.

Dave

}

david_munson

06-09-2006, 05:32 PM

Another symtom is to assign a value of zero to any persons life.
All,Christ died for all.

Dave

}

david_munson

06-09-2006, 05:34 PM

Now I ask you,is that Christ like?

}

angie0401

06-09-2006, 07:14 PM

David,
I think most of the "symptoms" you post can be used to describe most any organized church/group (religious or otherwise - think political parties)/religion.

I must disagree with you if you are attempting to brand SC as a cult. As many of you have pointed out, we don't all believe exactly the same. That very fact has been used to slam us, yet you say that if we DO all believe exactly the same, we're a cult. Talk about darned if you do and darned if you don't. It's my understanding that cults require all members to believe exactly what they are taught and not search the scriptures themselves and that does NOT describe SC.

I have personally been told that if one doesn't believe in the "rapture" (or speaking in tongues or laying on of hands) they don't "really" believe in Christ and need saving. Is that YOUR belief? If not, have you shared these same posts with those types of people?

I posted a long rebuttal to the accusation of SC being a cult and will repost it, if need be. However, I think most on here have finally agreed that we are NOT a cult, only that they disagree with some of the things we believe.

I personally don't have a problem if someone doesn't believe exactly as I do. Everyone Christian should be ready to give an answer and stand for what they believe, but not everyone will accept what you believe. I also think that all Christians have different roles - some are teachers, others are leaders; some have a simple faith, others have a thirst for the deeper truth; some help in their home church, others are called as missionaries; some are content with only the feel good part of Christianity, others are called to prepare for the spiritual battle. All roles are important, necessary and done for a reason. I think whatever God calls you to do is exactly what you should do - and do it without apology and regret (assuming you are doing what God calls you to do and not what YOU call yourself to do).

However, I take exception to being labeled "heretic", "blasphemer", "red-faced devil", "disgusting", "idiot", "slow", etc. because of what I believe and that is exactly what more than one person on here has done.

danispeachy

06-09-2006, 07:28 PM

David,

To quote an above posts, you say/paste... "PRIDE OF THE GROUP: We are the only ones who are right. If you are not one of us, then you are destined for hell."

This is not a message PM teaches.

Pastor Murray can be quoted as saying:

"You see, whether you agree with me or not is of little concern to me. It's whether or not, as a servant of God, I can drive you into the Word
whereby God can use you for whatever purpose He might have chosen. Then my work is done. I have never insisted that someone believe exactly
as I do because God didn't take a cookie cutter and make us all just alike
and say, "You all have the same duty." "

Pastor Arnold Murray, #116 Daniel, tape 2, end of side "B"

I would also like to point out that I have never said anybody was going to hell for their beliefs regarding the only 2 subjects ever mentioned at these threads. So I ask how your above post could possibly encompass SCN students as a whole?

Furthermore, there have only been about a dozen students visit this board and only a handful stick around.

Please keep in mind that these threads do not encompass all that SCN teaches, nor do any of the posters speak for Pastor Murray or SCN.

Please also keep in mind that when it comes to interpreting the bible, where you say we are wrong, we say you are wrong. It's a never ending disagreement. You say they are wrong for being so adamant to the point of rudeness at times, but aren't you then doing the same? It seems you also have blinders on regarding how others have spoken/acted towards the students here.

I am the 1st to admit that these threads have been very "unChrist like", but it takes 2 to tango.

watchman_2

06-09-2006, 10:39 PM

David,

You probably made the first statement that I agree with:

AN "US AGAINST THEM" ATTITUDE AND PHILOSOPHY: Anyone who challenges the cult's doctrine is automatically branded as an enemy which is usually anyone who disagrees. The cultists feel that they are being persecuted unfairly. On the other hand, true Christians accept persecution, knowing that it tests the genuineness of their faith. 

This description clearly fits you Apologetics. You are the cult!

You have come here to disagree with the Bible and the teachings of SC, while promoting your fundamentalist traditions of man. When we disagree with your analysis, we are labeled cultists, heretics, blasphemers, and are told we are hell-bound. Sound familiar -- just check out your posts.

On the other hand, us kind and gentle SCers continue to point out the truth of the scriptures while enduring constant heckling from those in your cult. We accept your persecution and gladly welcome it in order to demonstrate the falaciousness of your ways.

I thank you for bringing this point to the discussion board.

david_munson

06-10-2006, 03:10 AM

Read the posts you have made too Watchman.
---
danispeachy,
True,I cannot put all Sc'ers in one basket so to speak and I agree with that.
I never said that you made the salvation statement,you didn't.
---
angie,
I like you believe in the gifts within the body and their purposes.
I don't buy into every tenet of fundamentalism.As a matter of fact I take issue with certain "fundy" doctrines.
I believe in the rapture but it isn't a matter of salvation.The Shed Blood is.
I think that many groups have something to offer and that no particular group has a corner on the truth.
---
Watchman,
I never said you where not saved but you have said it in connection with the two doctrines in question.
Maybe it was just one of them if I remember correctly.Yet you did do it.
Kind and gentle Watchman?
Yes,some of you but like any other group,not all.
I admit that some have been the same towards you folks.That doesn't excuse any one of us that deal in anger on either side.

Remember though that some times it is difficult with this type of format to know what inflection is placed on what words to express a particular attitude precisely.
---
I don't question any of you concerning your salvation.That is not my place.I am not omniscient.Only God is.
Like I said,
"there are many members of the body of Christ throughout the world."

To me,it is Christ and the body that I am concerned with.
Doctrinal issues will be in contention until His return.

May it be soon.

Dave

}

watchman_2

06-10-2006, 11:48 AM

David,

Your quote:
To me,it is Christ and the body that I am concerned with.
Doctrinal issues will be in contention until His return.

Yes, doctrinal issues will be contended until His return. Nonetheless, doctrinal issues are very important. In fact, one's salvation may be dependent upon it.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, there we have it. Not all whom claim to be saved by the blood of Christ will make it. Doctrinal issues will keep many out.

So, eventhough the rapture theory makes you feel good, it is false, it is the doctrine of the antichrist, and it may keep you from entering into the Kingdom of God.

david_munson

06-10-2006, 03:04 PM

"So, eventhough the rapture theory makes you feel good, it is false, it is the doctrine of the antichrist, and it may keep you from entering into the Kingdom of God."
---
Not a chance.
It's faith in the Blood of Christ that saves.
Not serpent seed or the rapture.

It is the Blood that gives us access to the Father.Nothing else is Holy as the Blood.
Otherwise He died for nothing.

My faith is in the Atoning Shed Blood of the Son of the Most High God.
If that doesn't save,there is no salvation.
---
I thought I already mentioned that not all people in any particular group are members of Christ's body.

Watchman,
the rapture doesn't make me "feel good."
How could I feel good about what people left here will have to go through.
God's wrath is not something to feel good about.
The great tribulation will be God's wrath poured out on the earth.

Though I believe in the rapture,that is not my foundation.Christ and Him crucified is.

Not works of the flesh.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

We now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within each true believer which first took place in the upper room and then at Pentecost.

Dave
}

watchman_2

06-10-2006, 04:13 PM

David,

Yes, when you believe in the true Christ, you are doing works. But, you rapture people do not believe in the true Christ -- you believe in the antichrist, who will come first to rapture you away. You will be giving suck to Satan's offspring [spiritually] when the true Christ returns.

In all likelihood, it is you rapture people who will not enter the Kingdom of God as set forth above in Matt. 7:21-23. Have a good trip!

david_munson

06-10-2006, 09:29 PM

Watchman,
again you question the power of the Blood of Christ as the way to salvation.

You just don't get it.

I feel sorry for you that you think belief in the rapture is following Satan.
That is a very sad position to take against the body of Christ.
---
"But, you rapture people do not believe in the true Christ."
---
When was Satan crucified for me?
That is what you assert is my foundation.

I have proclaimed trust in the Holy Shed Blood of Jesus Christ and you say I follow Satan?

That is mocking the sacrifice that He made.
You tread on ground so troubling.
You accuse those who trust what the Father sent the Son to do as though Jesus Himself was Satan.

I trust Christ.Crucified,burried and resurrected and you mock that.

Your statements against the efficacy of the Blood is shameful.
You are attacking Christ's purpose in coming in person to take our place in judgement upon the cross.

You don't like me and I don't care about that but I will not sit still while you mock the only way to the Father.
That Blood you so easily shuck aside is the only hope for you,me and anyone else to be saved.

You go right ahead and put your trust in knowing some non-salvation related doctrine that is a new tradition of man from AM.
I will trust in that Shed Blood and know I put my trust in the right place.

Good luck with dissing the Blood of Christ.You can have that all to your self thank you.
---
As is usual you question some ones salvation even though their trust is in the Blood that provides the way.

Good luck with that,
Dave

}

david_munson

06-10-2006, 09:36 PM

Watchman,
go study the Blood and what it's purpose was,from Abraham to Calvary when the veil covering in the temple was rent from top to bottom.

Then tell me the Blood makes no differance if you can.
I wont be holding my breath.

Dave
}

david_munson

06-10-2006, 09:37 PM

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Dave
}

watchman_2

06-11-2006, 12:19 AM

David,

I am fully aware of the blood sacrifice made by the only begotten Son of God.

You fail to take in the importance of all of the scriptures that we have provided you.

We know from Matt. 7:21-23 that not all that accept the blood of the Lamb will enter the Kingdom. So, simple deduction tells us that there must be a reason why Christ rejects these people.

So, the question that each of us have to answer is who are those that are rejected by Christ??

Since it is well documented that there is no scriptural foundation for the pre-trib or mid-trib raptures; since it is well documented that the antichrist [which means instead of Christ] will pretend to be Christ coming to rapture people away; and since it is well documented that the blessed are those found working in the field when the true Christ returns, the most likely candidates for rejection by Christ are you rapture people.

The truth hurts; but, the blood of the Lamb won't save all -- the rapture is worship of the antichrist. Why should those who reject the truth of God's Word for this phoney 'rapture' theory and follow the antichrist instead of the true Christ obtain salvation?? The sole purpose of this earth age is to give all another chance, through being born through woman innocent of what occurred in the first earth age, to choose to love God or follow Satan. Those that have had their chance and fail will not be saved.

arron

06-11-2006, 12:26 AM

david only a fool rejects THE BLOOD OF JESUS and say that works save a man. it has always taken THE BLOOD to save for with out the sheding of blood there is no,,, NO remission of sin

watchman_2

06-11-2006, 12:28 AM

You rapture people are the ones rejecting the blood of Jesus by worshipping the antichrist as your savior. You are the ones treating the cross of Christ with foolishness [I Cor. 1:18].

david_munson

06-11-2006, 01:46 AM

"The truth hurts; but, the blood of the Lamb won't save all."
---
Romans 3:24-27 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Watchman,
why is it that you have to divert away from what is said?

The Blood of Christ is salvation.
It was Christ on the cross that I believe and trust yet you "seem" to have some kind of need to declare those who believe in Christ's Blood as worshipers of Satan.

Go study some more and see the miracle of salvation in what Christ,the Son of the One True Living God,has done.

This goes against my convictions but you need to hear it for yourself,"you are a lost soul."
You deny the Bloods effectiveness as the payment for sin.How could you be saved if you deny the power of God?

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

How?

Dave

P.S. I didn't really mean your not saved.
You just needed to have it shoved at you like you're used to doing to others.
I appologise for that.

I do have to ask how you get that belief in the rapture has anything to do with rejecting the Blood of Christ?

That is a stretch even for you to come up with.

}

arron

06-11-2006, 01:50 AM

yes david THE BLOD OF CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY i have THE BLOOD APPLIED to my heart. i am safe and secure forevermore in THE BLOOD OF JESUS, washed clean and whit i have made my garment white not by works but by THE BLOOD OF JESUS praise HIS NAME/

watchman_2

06-11-2006, 02:02 AM

David,

The question is which christ will you worship as your savior -- the false christ or the true Christ??

I don't divert at all. I am right on point. You rapture people will worship the antichrist as the one that shed blood. Right now, we all can say the true Christ. However, when the antichrist comes first to rapture you away -- you rapturists will stop working in the field and stop grinding in the mill to go worship him.

Those are the people Christ dismisses from the Kingdom of God [Matt. 7:21-23]. The ones that are blessed remain working in the field and grinding at the mill to the end at the harvest and the wedding feast with the true Christ.

david_munson

06-11-2006, 02:12 AM

Watchman,
I claim belief in Jesus Christ who died on the cross was buried and resurrected and you claim He is Satan.
He isn't.He is "THE" Son of GOD.
Haven't you mocked God enough?

Dave
}

arron

06-11-2006, 02:36 AM

amen david munson... keep on preaching THE WORD OF GOD it is all that matters in the end.

ezekiel_37

06-11-2006, 06:45 AM

david, read again.

Scroll up and read again. Your claim is incorrect. not your claim of Christ, but to claim that watchman or other SCN followers believe that Satan is God.

None of us mock Him, nor shall we during the Apostacy, but some (Christians) will by worshiping the false Messiah who comes in on the wings of peace and takes the world by way of his FLOOD of LIES.

Have you studied for yourself 1Cor15 and 1Thes4 and 2Thes2 in the greek? It will help you large.Big time. Then tell me if there is a rapture before the 7th trump.

these are the key words in 1Thes4.....

caught up.....
together......
in the air.....
in the clouds......

now here is the proper english translation

caught up....to take, for ones self, favorably
together.....at the exact same time.
in the air.....part of the 7th trumpet BLAST. spiritual body
in the clouds......in a mass multitude (a cloud of locusts).

1Thes4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 

This is teaching...where the dead are...as that was a question of many then as today. Are they in heaven, are they in purgatory, are they in hell, where are they...

1Thes4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 

Now, Christ is to return, and those who are "the Dead in Christ" shall return with Christ Jesus. The question is when; at the 7th trump or before the 7th trump avoiding the tribulation?

1Thes4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 

The dead, as they are already dead, shall arise(come back to the earth)before us who are alive at His arrival. The dead are given there Immortal bodies, spiritual but physical, which not coruptable. The world will see this happen at the 7th trump. Then we alive also get changed, the elect receiving THEIR immortal spiritual bodies that are not coruptable.

1Thes4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

God shouts the 7th trump, the Trump of God, and those already dead and believe in Him, are resurrected at the 7th trump.

1Thes4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

Now, above I detailed the meanings for the key Words....taken, for Ones Self, favorably...at the same time, as part of the 7th trump itself, gathered unto the mass multitude of dead in Christ that are with Him at the Last trump, the Trump of God, which is the furthest trump out...and we know how many trumps their are in Prophecy.....7.

There is soooooo much abundance of evidence proving that the gathering YOU call the rapture happens ONLY at the 7th Trump and not before.

God wants YOU to know that He needs people in the field during the tribulation of the anti-Christ. If you had the choice to help Christ or not, would you...I think that you would...and he does have His election.....here in the end generation through out the trib.

Peace in Christ
c

1Thes4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

watchman_2

06-11-2006, 12:45 PM

David,

You are the one mocking God with your dismissive attitude toward the Word.

Now, it is a debatable point for you to contend that you rapture believers are not the ones referred to in Matt. 7:21-23.

But, for you to deny the scripture all together with your insistence that all one needs is the belief in the shed blood of the lamb is ludicrous. You diminish God's Word to a couple of scriptures so you do not have to examine your beliefs. This is true mockery of God.

God gave us all of the Word for our benefit. We are to study it to show ourselves approved [II Tim. 2:15].

david_munson

06-11-2006, 02:19 PM

Watchman,
I don't dismiss God's Word as you So joyfully assume.
There are key elements that I am focused on right now but if you like I'll post the whole Bible.

If one doesn't believe in the Blood where does that leave them?
A starting point for all who will come,"John 3:16."

It's a bit sophomoric for you to make comments like you do,knowing full well that to assign thoughts to another without them actually having thought that way is a bit disingenuous,to put it lightly.
---
Zeke,
The 144,000 of the twelve tribes will be evangelising the world when they suddenly realize that Christ was the One they where waiting for.(first shall be last,last shall be first)
I say suddenly because the removal of the bride will be so obvious to them since they have heard it from many Christians over many years.

They will be untouchable but those who come to belief in Christ through their testimony will not.It will even cost them their heads to make a stand.

Those who worship the Anti-Christ will do so because of the miracles he performs and the solutions that bring a false peace into the Middle East and the threat of death if they don't.

I don't plan on being here.
I plan on being with Christ having been changed in an instant.

After Rev. 3 there is no mention of the church and it switches from "let the church hear." to "let he who has ears hear."
The reason being that the bride will be gone.

May you enjoy good health and provision for your needs.
In Christ,
Dave

this thing keeps following me around--->}

watchman_2

06-11-2006, 03:10 PM

David,

Yes, the starting point is John 3:16. Surely, Christ, the perfect lamb, was ample enough sacrifice for all of us.

However, the acceptance of the sacrifice will not ensure one's placement in the Kingdom. Surely, many malefactors that commit hideous crimes at one time or other accepted Christ -- probably many did before they committed the crimes. Does this mean they still live forever?

Of course, we do not know whether any specific criminal makes it or not since the unforgiveable sin could not have been committed yet.

In the same light, Matt. 7:21-23 is telling us that those that stray far enough from the truth of God's Word will not enter the Kingdom.

Since your rapture theory is the doctrine of antichrist, it is my opinion that such belief would qualify. Of course, your belief in this false theology is not the unforgiveable sin either.

The scriptures are clear that we will be here to the end. Some of you will have participated in the wedding feast with Satan and will be giving suck to his offspring [spiritually] when the true Christ returns. Woe to you!

david_munson

06-11-2006, 11:33 PM

Same old same old.

(answering in kind)
Your serpent seed dogma will lead you astray.
Woe to you Watchman.

Now,
let's stop going in circles and leave it at that.

We would both be better off.
Thank you.
Dave
}

watchman_2

06-12-2006, 03:46 AM

David,

Only one going around in circles chasing tail is you. The serpent seed doctrine has been proven true and the rapture theory has been proven false.

I am only waiting for you to admit that you are just a heckler, that your presence here is disingenuous, or that you are wrong.

You claim that you are not a heckler like godchild and arron -- that you are a dedicated student of the Bible. Yet, you cannot square the scriptures with your theology -- and you have been shown why your theology is false. But, for some unknown reason, we cannot get your concession. Nor, can we get a rebuttal argument.

So, I am left in a quandry as to which category to place you in -- heckler or disingenuous. Certainly, by now, we can deduce that you are not a serious student of the Word. For, if you were, you would have offered your concession by now on your false beliefs.

david_munson

06-12-2006, 02:52 PM

It's just sad when you think you've proved anything but the ability to manipulate scriptures to your own purposes.
That you have an elitist mindset.

That you cannot address others without being less than Christ like and find a need to berate others that reject your dogma.

That you trample under foot the Blood of Christ.

You worry about yourself,I'll just go on believeing Christ is Lord and Saviour and that His Sacrifice was for me as well as every one else.

Trying so hard as you do to put tags on others is a lesson in futility and a huge waste of time.

You seek to catagorise me and I'll tell you now you'll have no success in that area with me because I don't fit any of your catagories.

If I was a heckler like you want me to be,the conversations would be repulsive.
I am who God made me to be.
If you think that is disingenuous you need to do some soul searching.

Serpent seed is fraud plain and simple.
It requires you to avoid the proper context in order to extract a part of a words meaning wich is not consistant with rightly dividing the Word.

Don't even respond to that because I know what you'll say already.

Same old same old.

So,
I truely hope you have a good day and find some solice in the fact that "who so ever will may come."
---
The end.}
Bye,
Dave

watchman_2

06-13-2006, 12:05 AM

I guess that it will be disingenous -- not a serious student of the Word.

david_munson

06-13-2006, 03:41 PM

1. Salvation is THE WORK OF GOD ALONE; and the work of God is DONE FOREVER (Eccles. 3:14).
2. Salvation is THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE; and eternal life is ETERNAL (Rom. 6:23).
3. Salvation is BY GRACE ALONE. Works have nothing to do with it, neither good nor bad. Sin could not keep God from bestowing his grace. And sin cannot compel God to withdraw his grace (Eph. 2:8-9).
4. THE COVENANT OF GRACE CANNOT BE BROKEN; and eternal security is one UNCONDITIONAL PROMISE of the covenant (Jer. 31:3; 31-34; 32:38-40).
5. THE PURPOSE OF GOD IN ELECTION MUST STAND; and that purpose could not stand if even one of the elect were to perish (Rom. 8:28-30; 9:11).
6. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CANNOT MISCARRY OR BE SHED IN VAIN. If one redeemed sinner should perish,for that sinner, the death of Christ would be a miscarriage, his blood would have been shed in vain (Isa.53:9-10).
7. THE SEAL OF THE SPIRIT CANNOT BE BROKEN (Eph. 4:30).
8. CHRIST CANNOT FAIL; and he would miserably fail in his appointed work if one whom he came to save were to perish (Isa. 42:4; Matt. 1:21; John 6:39).
9. The Lord our God is IMMUTABLE. He cannot change. And if one whom he loves were to become an object of his wrath in hell, he must cease to be God (Mal. 3:6).
10. THE JUSTICE OF GOD, once satisfied, CANNOT PUNISH ANY FOR WHOM ATONEMENT HAS BEEN MADE (Rom. 3:24-26).
11. GOD WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN TO HIS ELECT. Where sin is not imputed there is no danger of perdition (Rom.4:8).
12. FAITH, SALVATION, AND ETERNAL LIFE ARE THE GIFTS OF GOD. The gifts of God cannot be taken away (Rom.11:29).
13. CHRIST'S INTERCESSORY PRAYER MUST PREVAIL(John 17).
14. THE BODY OF CHRIST MUST BE COMPLETE; and it cannot be complete if even one member has perished (Eph. 1:23).
15. We are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD (I Pet. 1:5).
16. OUR LORD HAS PROMISED TO BRING ALL HIS ELECT TO GLORY; and he will do what he has promised (Eph. 5:25-27). (Jude 24-25)

Genuine.

}

david_munson

06-13-2006, 03:45 PM

The aboove is not given as a liscence to willfully sin and should never be used to do such.

}

arron

06-13-2006, 04:40 PM

the one who post as number two, daved has said that you are going in circles and they are waitning for you to admit you are wrong and they are right... david dpnt ever do that for they are like satan saying i am going to change you to my way of thinking... david dont ever let them do that hold fast to THE WORD OF GOD and hlod on to JESUS.

david_munson

06-13-2006, 05:37 PM

No worry about that Arron.
I'd have to deny the Blood and I have no intention of ever doing that.

}

watchman_2

06-14-2006, 12:37 AM

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

See Strong's definition of 'seed':

H2233
&#1494;&#1512;&#1506;
zera&#8219;
zeh'-rah
From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.

We know that the literal use of the word 'seed' is not appropriate, since fruit seeds cannot bruise heads and heels. So, we know the figurative use of the word 'seed' is appropriate.

We also know from Gen. 3:15 the use of 'seed' with respect to Eve is the lineage to Christ. Lo and behold, the figurative definition of 'seed' is 'posterity'. Posterity is the only proper interpretation.

So, if anyone claims that Eve's 'seed' in Gen. 3:15 is referring to her posterity, umbilical chord to umbilical chord, to Christ, intellectual integrity demands that one also claim that there is also posterity from the serpent [who is Satan -- Rev. 12:9, 20:2]in order to create the 'emnity' that God promised.

Hence, to qualify as a serious student, one must admit the similarity of the use of the word 'seed' in Gen. 3:15. When one claims [like David Munson] that the 'seed' as it relates to Even is different than the 'seed' as it relates to the serpent [Satan], one is intellectually disingenuous -- not a serious student. This brings into question any of these people's posts.

david_munson

06-14-2006, 12:53 AM

Still you can't help yourself Watchman.
I guess ignorance is bliss.

I preach CHRIST and Him Crucified.
The Blood is Holy.
You count it as nothing when God the Father counts it as the only acceptable offering that will allow any person access to Him.

I am sad for you young one.
Very sad that you look for Kenites when you should look for Christ.

Sad that your attitude is not that of Christ, towards others.
Sad that you are an elitist and blind to the truth of salvation.

Sad that you give satan more credit than he should ever get.

Go forth and look for your precious Kenites while the rest of us look to Jesus.

Sad that you deny the true Israel that God Himself has brought back into the land.

Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Israel is alive in the land right now but you call them Kenites.
So sad.
So very sad.

}

watchman_2

06-14-2006, 01:57 AM

David,

Still waiting for your concession that the Serpent Seed Doctrine is the truth of God's Word, since it has been proven to you. This way, you can demonstrate some credibility.

No serious student of the Word would or should pay any attention to your preachings unless you can show that you possess some intellectual integrity. So far, you just keep chasing your tail in circular arguments/denials.

Please keep in mind that you are an invader to the truth of God's Word as presented here by SCers. If you wish to convince anyone of your whacky theories, you need to demonstrate scriptural support for your theories. Absent proof, your continuing denials are worthless.

arron

06-14-2006, 02:05 AM

the poster who continuly post saying that you david owe an apologey will soon be saying "see i told you he would not apologise" see they say things and then say they did not say them when someone proves to them they did by giving th post on which they said it they say it is not meant that way. they are mixed up confused and dont believe THE TRUE WORD OF GOD

david_munson

06-14-2006, 02:40 PM

"David,

Still waiting for your concession that the Serpent Seed Doctrine is the truth of God's Word, since it has been proven to you. This way, you can demonstrate some credibility."
---
Thank you Watchman.
this is a perfect example of how manipulation is employed.
Watchman tries to discredit me by stating that I have to believe in serpent seed error or I have no credibility.
That is a concerted effort to manipulate by twisting things around.
---
Sorry that you,Watchman,are so caught up in these lies about Satan having sex with Eve.
To bad you think you proved it but you have not.
I can't see why you think you have when all you have done is incorrectly pulled only the part of a word description that fits (with a bit of manipulation) what you want it to.

Any one can do that.
That is why there are cults.

Watchman,
I would avoid attacking anyone's intellect if I where you.
Your antagonism towards those who reject Arnold's error is not Christ like.

Serpent seed is fallacy.
I owe you nothing but to love you as Christ Loves you,Period.

Since serpent seed is not God's Word,I am an invader,as you so adeptly put it,to Arnold's error.

Don't hold your breath.I'm not going to deny Christ for you.So get that straight right away.

God is Love,
Dave
}

steelsword

06-14-2006, 03:41 PM

Dave ,viv, aaron
check the following as well:

http://www.missiontoisrael.org/didshe-pt2.php

steelsword

06-14-2006, 03:56 PM

Gc ,also check this site:

http://www.biblebelieversorlando.com/whoiswilliambranham.htm

Click on: who is william branham

Go to the fifth paragraph an see what visited mr.
branham? does this sound familiar to some others we know.

then under the third picture he quotes amos 3:7
out of context to make himself a prophet, but fails to quote Luke 16:16 ,Hebrews 1:1-2.

Sound like someone else we know?

steel
Jude 3

ezekiel_37

06-14-2006, 04:49 PM

bunk on the first....not only that but it is kinda hard to believe someone who does not know the Name of God, for it is not Yahwey, spelling it wrong, and inserting that name when it is not the correct name shows a lack of biblical scholarship which leads to a lack of credibility.
YHVH, vowels added, YaHaVeH. V and not W.

That is the first scripture given on this site, and it is wrongly presented. But I read much of the rest anyway....bunk.

no similarity in the second except to maybe John Smith.

sounds like many today. Faith healings. raising from the dead, only God knows, but we can discern.

PS. Dave,

We do not deny Christ and Him crucified, on the contrary. We do LISTEN to CHRIST when He tells us in Rev 2&3 what to look for and who is who.

I am surprised that you do not want to follow Christ ALL the way, but rather avoid some of what He said.

And (polysendendant)then to also not understand the biblical events to such a degree that you are 100% fooled into WANTING to fly away and avoid the tribulation, instead of standing up for God and working in the field until He comes for the harvest....is sad indeed.

With the Lord, His elect shall be 100% protected in the Tribulation, so they can defeat the firey darts of Satan, who is the anti-Christ come to fool at first the Christians and then the world.

it's a pattern
pick it up
read the greek definitions and pick up the pattern. Have you even explored the greek Dave. Please answer.

Peace in Christ's Holy Name
c

david_munson

06-14-2006, 05:45 PM

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
---
Beheading is what kind of protection?

Dave

}

david_munson

06-14-2006, 05:48 PM

Also notice that they didn't "receive" the mark.
---
"I am surprised that you do not want to follow Christ ALL the way, but rather avoid some of what He said."
---
Presumptuous of you.

Dave

}

ezekiel_37

06-14-2006, 05:51 PM

those are the dead in Christ that return with Christ to meet the elect at the 7th trump. They died before the tribulation. Those that are alive upon the return of Christ at the7th trump, get changed to the NEXT body and meet them. They are here together to sit on those thrones.

Two groups of people, one elect here on earth 100% protected by the Holy Spirit through the whole tribulation, and one group who have given up their lives for the witness of Christ...Paul, John, the Christians fed to the Lions, Peter, most of the deciples and apostles, the little girl who got shot for saying that she was a Christian. These are the dead in Christ.

It is rather easy to follow and understand, if you are willing to so the study with me. Would you consider that?

Peace in Christ's Name
c

godchild

06-14-2006, 06:55 PM

Hey, steel, how are you? I've read some about Branham. I've saved the links you gave, thanks.

Oh yes, I do see a lot of similarity between am/sc and mormonism. I prefer to discuss it elsewhere though, under religious leaders and doctrines and proofs.

Joe Smith (not John, John Smith was the explorer) used the book of Enoch in his teachings just as these folks do.

Now, before murrayites get all excited and call me a liar once again, I responded to steel, not to anything you have said. I will respond to any of that on the other threads. I think it is preferable because more people read the other threads. It doesn't take too long for them to get a real unwelcome feeling here. Zeke is the only one willing to have a civilized discussion, but he waffles back and forth. That doesn't make him a bad person, just unreliable.

preachers_daughter

06-14-2006, 08:40 PM

Smyrna gave a link to the book of Enoch. Does anyone else use this as a study source?

ezekiel_37

06-14-2006, 09:06 PM

Hello PD, no I have never, but I have heard other people speak of it.

I do think that the rest of Daniel and 2Esdras are biblically supportive. I have an apocrypha but rarely read it. Too weird. Much doesn't line up with the word. But those two books seem to in my opinion. Still secondary to the Canonized books.

never been to that link.

In His Service
c

preachers_daughter

06-14-2006, 09:23 PM

Thanks ezekiel. I have heard others speak of it too. That is why I was wondering if anyone actually uses it, and if so what they think of it.

I went to that link, and the others he posted, because I told him I would. During the summer, I don't have as much time as I do the rest of the year, but I am going to try and read what is said, on those sites, whenever I get a chance. Even though we disagree on several things, I still think it one should take a look. Then you know exactly where the other person is coming from.

ps. I hope all is well with you, your wife, and your new baby.

God Bless

david_munson

06-14-2006, 10:34 PM

Zeke,
I think it is evident from the scriptures I gave that it refers to the Great Tribulation.
The only untouchables will be the 144,000 out of the twelve tribes.
The mark of the beast is going to be required at that time by the Anti-Christ.
Either that or death.

God bless you and your new family,
Dave

}

watchman_2

06-15-2006, 12:13 AM

David,

I didn't say that you have to believe in the Serpent Seed Doctrine -- you can chose to not believe in the Bible.

However, I said that intellectual integrity demands that you admit that the 'seed' references in Gen. 3:15 for Eve and the serpent have the same meaning. If you cannot admit this simple fact, irrespective of interpretation of 'seed', then you are intellectually disingenuous -- and, thus, not a serious poster here.

I am not trying to discredit you -- you have already done a fine job of that yourself. I am trying to make you a genuine poster -- one who can handle the specifics of a debate without blanket denials, running away from the debate, or changing the subject to avoid the logic dilemma that you have been placed in.

God's truth has cornered you on Gen. 3:15 and you keep obfuscating the issue. Time for you to confess or forever be a phoney.

It's your decision.

ezekiel_37

06-15-2006, 12:35 AM

Thank-you Preacher's Daughter and David Munson.
Little Joshua is slightly colic, little sleep for mom and dad, but he's worth it. Pretty strong already so things are looking great.
Thank you for the thoughts.

PD..I will visit them and honestly give you my opinion.

David..I will attempt to post in a christian manner. I would ask....

do you see the two groups of ELECT. One called the dead in Christ, and one called the 144,000 sealed (in my and others opinion there are also 7000 very elect who witness at the end of the Trib and the 144,000 hear that witness and 'understand' and believe fully, thus becoming spiritual virgins awaiting the Groom.

It is my contention that the 144,000 are from inhabitants all over he world, and that these people come out of the deception of the anti-Christ (devil) during the TRIB, and that the 7,000 very elect are never in the deception and witness the Cloven Gift of Tongues where God speaks through the elect when they are delivered infront of Mr. Death himself, Satan in his role as anti-Christ who is pretending to be the Messiah. The Holy Spirit speaks through the very elect and the 144,000 are sealed. They now know the truth and accept it 100%.

I disagree that it is either the mark of the beast or death. It is easily proven that there are those SEALED by God (His mark), so either you have the mark of the beast or the mark of God during the tribulation. Those with the mark of God are 100% protected during the Tribulation. Rev 9 states that the Locust army is in power for 5 months, not 7 years.

Anti-Christ is coming playing Jesus, sweat loving kind gentile, not killing, waring violence...false peace.

So there are two groups of God's election. One group in which the souls are dead already (in Christ-martyrs), and one group that are here on earth, 100% protected-the first shall be last and the last shall be first......

Delivered to Death....Death is Satan's name, who we are to defeat at the 7th trump.....

So...do you see the two groups?

and

Have you studied the greek interpretation (in the Strong's for example) for 1Thes4 and 1Cor15. These two studies may change your mind, and reveal what we 100% believe to be true. That there is one second coming, only at the 7th trump, where God's elect here on earth are gathered together and join Christ as He arrives with His army of those who are already dead in Him, the martyrs and whom ever He chooses to accompany Him. We are all, good and bad, changed to our spiritual bodies and those elect and dead in Christ sit on the thrones of Judgement.

Many of us were at one time pre/mid tribbers and have come out of that. We believe that it will be the devil's biggest trick, coming to rapture you. So when there is this so called messiah here and you are not transformed into your spiritual body at the 7th trump, then you MUST realize that this messiah is the fake who MUST come first. no matter when the rapture/gathering happens, the fake MUST COME FIRST.

If you agree to at least that I am happy.

Peace in Christ
c

david_munson

06-15-2006, 01:13 AM

Zeke,
"the fake MUST COME FIRST."
---
Absolutely.
However,Satan will not rapture anyone.He will come as a great world leader with amazing and miraculous answers to the worlds problems.At least that is how he will present himself at first.

It is what takes place after he deceives the world into thinking he is the man of the hour that should be of concern to those still around at that time.

Three and one half years of peace which is a false peace that will be broken when the world descends upon Israel.

You must understand that though I believe in the rapture,it is not my foundation,Christ is.
There is much debate about this event from many sides.
I don't think that I need to focus on the rapture,I think I need to focus on Christ no matter what takes place.

We do agree that the anti-Christ will come onto the world scene before the Lord rides forth on a white horse.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Here we see the difference between His appearing to all(Revelation 1:7a Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him.)and His coming in secret to remove the present body of believers.(1 Thes 4:17)

G726
&#945;&#788;&#961;&#960;&#945;&#769;&#950;&#969 ;
harpazo&#772;
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

God bless your precious child,
Dave

}

ezekiel_37

06-15-2006, 01:18 AM

Thanks

we disagree on the when the saints are gathered.
pre trib
mid trib
post trib

..if you didn't know, I'm a post tribber.lol.

question...

does Christ's feet touch the ground in the rapture? or is it a fly by?

Thanks
c

david_munson

06-15-2006, 03:38 AM

Not during the rapture.
He will when He comes to make war riding on a white horse.
I believe at the end of the Great Tribulation.

We must as I see it,while we are here,be living testimonies to His work in our lives and show the hope that we have within.
As well as sharing His Love with others and preaching the good news of salvation through faith in His sacrifice upon the cross.
---
By the way,I want to commend you on the way that you disagree with others.
You have been very gracious and I appreciate it more than you know.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hoping the best for you and your family,
Dave

}

ezekiel_37

06-15-2006, 02:58 PM

Hi Dave.

Another question.

Do you expect to see a messianic figure walking here on the earth before you are raptured?
Pre-trib's believe that they are taken before the Trib.
Mid-trib's believe that they are taken out at the 1/2 way point before the AC makes his appearance.

I have heard various differences with believers of pre and mid trib raptures. Is you thoughts more mainstream, or does your understanding sway from the norm on this matter. I also remember your scripture quotes above, and I agree. Jesus is the beginning and the end, and I trip and fall along the way but get up, repent and continue to go forward.

Peace to you and yours
c

david_munson

06-15-2006, 03:27 PM

Zeke,
I don't expect to be able to identify him if he is walking the earth right now.He may not be revealed for what he is until he proclaims himself to be God when he sits in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

I believe we will be removed long before then.
Pre-trib.

On the other hand,I think we will undergo some pretty horrible stuff before we are taken out.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Remember that He told us the world would hate us.
---
Like you I too fall and stumble along trusting the Lord to help me overcome and continue on.

Keep on trusting.
He is able when we are not.
Jude 24-25.

Prosper in the Lord and be well,
Dave
}

ezekiel_37

06-17-2006, 03:25 AM

Hi Dave...

What makes you think that he is walking the earth right now. I mean I fully understand that his spirit is here now, much as God's Spirit is here, the Holy Spirit. But also as Christ is not here yet, in this case, neither is the anti-Christ (Satan-devil). Just his spirit, and not his physical presence, as that part of Rev 12 has not been fulfilled yet.

Your opinion?

In His service
c

arron

06-17-2006, 03:57 AM

the antichrist is not yet revealed if he is here then the rapture will take place before he is revealed. the antichrist is a man empowered by satan. the antichrist can not come untill THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TAKEN out of the way. david keep holding on

plow_deep

06-17-2006, 05:59 AM

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15

ezekiel_37

06-17-2006, 06:06 PM

we all see the anti-Christ and then are 'raptured' after he does all he is going to do hear on earth. We are 'raptured' when the two witnesses are risen to meet Jesus.

We are 'raptured' at the same time as...

everyone alive at that time, everyone... is transformed from their flesh body, into their spiritual body.

The 'raptured' receive their IMMORTAL body and are 'elect'.

The others have a new spiritual body, but must go through the MILLENIUM (with the elect and Christ as their Judges/rulers)...

they must be refined, as metal is refined in fire. This Millenium is a time of learning, from Christ and The Sharp Two Edged Sword (which comes from His mouth), that cuts both ways, which is the WORD of GOD.

Did everyone know that the New Testament was written in Greek....

and that the english words in the KJV don't always tell us the proper words that the greek New Testament authors wrote.

Does every one here have a Love for God that will make them study the real Words of what Christ and the New Testament writers said?

I will leave anyone who doesn't want to study the greek, these few verses........and this is what the KJV says...Jesus is speaking, so we better pay attention, right.....

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

What does hate here mean young arron?

Jesus says we are to hate our parents...but isn't one of the commandments to love and honor ones parents?

How could this be possible, arron? is the english, in this case, correct?

Yes or no? Do you hate your parents, like Christ said to? otherwise you cannot follow Him.

Wanna know what it really says arron, or do you still want to just take the english for the truth. because it isn't always the correct words.

open your mind.......

I will address you if you keep it civil and really want to learn.....as I do.

In His service, planting seeds of truth.
c}

arron

07-01-2006, 10:05 PM

if the antichrist is here now he has not been revealed. when JESUS comes for the church then the antichrist will be revealed ofr we will be gone to meet THE LORD IN THE AIR. we are not to hate our parents that is cultic teaching, that what you just said means our love FOR CHRIST must far exceed the love of the world that it is like hate. no where does the bible teach that the family is to be broken up. we sometimes have to make a disisson to serve GOD and not man and have to seperate from our parents on account of this. but we can never seperate our parents or family in our hearst for our love fopr them and for others must remain. some people get just like sc. you ask a question and they ask another never answering the first one.

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 02:40 AM

The antichrist is not here. When the antichrist does appear, he will rapture arron and others away. These people will think that the antichrist is Christ and will deliver their family members to death.

Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

arron

07-02-2006, 06:01 AM

the verses one gives has nothing to do with the rapture

arron

07-02-2006, 06:03 AM

i will say they dont know enough scripture to prove their point and they do just like the scs and dont answer what they cant answer anyway. just put out cultic teachings

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 06:28 AM

arron's quote:

the verses one gives has nothing to do with the rapture

His first true words -- there are no scriptures that have anything to do with the rapture. Rapture does not exist in the Bible or the manuscripts.

However, it does speak to those who think there is a rapture. The warnings are many.

arron

07-02-2006, 06:39 AM

one uses these scriputres and then say it does not mean it see just like their doctrine cult teachers am and sc say

arron

07-02-2006, 06:41 AM

i still say the verse have nothing to do with any rapture post mid non or what ever thay they give as much as they claim to know the bible or say they do they should know that.

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 06:46 AM

More for the rapturist -

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

arron

07-02-2006, 12:56 PM

the one still uses scritpure that has nothing to do with the rapture which they are trying to prove does not happen.
none of these verses has anything to do with the rapture

watchman_2

07-02-2006, 04:17 PM

I don't have to prove that it doesn't happen -- the Bible is clear that it does not.

arron, on the other hand, has provided no proof of any of his beliefs, including the rapture.

arron

07-03-2006, 02:50 AM

but the one who is always telling me i am wrong HAS NOT proven that there is no rapture, he uses verses that do not apply in any way

watchman_2

07-03-2006, 04:59 AM

Rapture is not in the Bible -- fact! I have already proven to you, David, godchild, and damon that the rapture does not take place.

I have no intention of proving it to you again -- what good would it do?? You are blind and deaf to the truth. Providing you scripture is the same as casting pearls before swine.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 

When it comes to Biblical truths, you are swine.

arron

07-03-2006, 02:03 PM

hey david godchild and damon looks like you are swine. well dont worry. i was called a hypoctite. but not this time probally becasue the one posting cant prove his no rapture doctrine. see he keeps saying what i said but leaves out part of it and hey i know you all are not swine and i am not a hypocrite. you and i have THE WORD on our side. be good and pray for me

arron

07-03-2006, 02:11 PM

godchild and damon and david. havent seen you all posting in a while. godchild you told me to go to cultbusters but i could not get on there. dont know why i got the code and everthing but i still couldnt get on.

damon

07-03-2006, 06:02 PM

Hey Arron,

These guys think that humans are angels. When one sits back and reads these guys post it is like reading really bad science fiction. I find the Sc'ers to be the most decieved group of people I have ever met. I won't be wasting much time here. I am trying to get into cultbusters too. Hope to see you there.

I am considering making a gospel according to Arnold Murray short expose movie. One of these post has their beliefs listed all together and it read like a script for a "godmaker" style expose.

david_munson

07-03-2006, 08:41 PM

Watchman,
since you continue to accuse the brethren ,of which I am one, I will state plainly that you are a heretic after the first order.

You have no evidence of Christ coming from that spiteful flesh of yours.
You cannot converse "in context" since you have been taught to manipulate scripture by AM or others.

The proof is in the pudding sir and yours reeks of Christ-less hatred towards all that oppose your erroneous dogma or even dare to disagree with you.

You sir are the devil's advocate in these issues with all your statements about who is saved and who is not IE., giving suck,etc.

Not only is this not in scripture but the fact that plain text needs to be made figurative in all instances for you to accept it is evidence of a tremendous lack of understanding on your part.

Using natural analytical capacities from your fallen human flesh only leads to the deception that you are in.

Faith is the "substance" of things hoped for,the "evidence" of things not yet seen.Hebrews 11:1,yet you choose by your own admission not to operate this way.

You disobey God's way when you do this.

Talk and talk about God without allowing His love for others to show forth is the very definition of hypocrisy.

You sir have proven much.
Not what you claim however.
More like your falseness and disingenuousness.

You should stop with the "devil's tit" nonsense it shows you up for what you are.

Good bye!

dave
}

arron

07-04-2006, 01:00 AM

the name of this thread is the cult of anti truth. you can sure tell it is the cult of anti truth from what some of the snake seed, no rapture, devil in heaven, lost in heaven, no hellites are saying. yes it sure is anti... there is no "Uncle" about it it is all anti. truly theirs is an antichrist spirit daoctrine

arron

07-04-2006, 04:21 AM

amen david i just read your post that was posted by one who doesnt like you very much... hey brother i agree with you. keep up the good work david. keep preaching it as it is dont let anyone stop you. and oh yes thank GOD thye have quit ( i pray ) posting to me. i am so glad see they could not answer what i said so they just quit posting to me. thank GOD praise HIS NAME

watchman_2

07-04-2006, 04:51 AM

David,

You rapturists are symbolic of the Devil's tit. You follow the antichrist's doctrine -- the rapture. I am only paraphrasing what Christ teaches.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I have posted this several times for you; yet, you choose to ignore it every time. These scriptures clearly point out a group of so-called Christians that Christ disowns. It is not because these people were wicked for they claimed to have 'prophesied in thy name'

Now, an examination of the definition of the word 'prophesied' tells us that those who foretell of things to happen qualify.

G4395
&#960;&#961;&#959;&#966;&#951;&#964;&#949;&#965;&# 769;&#969;
prophe&#772;teuo&#772;
prof-ate-yoo'-o
From G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: - prophesy.

So, it is fair to conclude that those who tell us of Christ's future 'rapture' of the church qualify as those that 'prophesied' in His name.

Accordingly, since it has been proven repeatedly to all of you rapturists that the 'rapture' is false theology, it is completely appropriate to claim that Matt. 7:21-23 applies to you rapturists.

Likewise, my reference to you rapturists as the devil's tit is equally appropriate.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

I have already shown you that the word 'child' is only figurative in the Greek.

G1064
&#947;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#769;&#961;
gaste&#772;r
gas-tare'
Of uncertain derivation; the stomach; by analogy the matrix; figuratively a gourmand: - belly, + with child, womb.

This scripture is speaking of those that are not faithful until the end when the true Christ returns -- they have already joined into the wedding feast [Satan's], have been bedded by Satan [believe that he is the true Christ], and are with child giving good suck [furthering Satan's efforts].

The Bible confirms the work that you will be doing.

Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Since you rapturists will think Satan is Christ, you will turn in all others for trial.

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

So, I have been warning [like any good watchman] you rapturists that there are consequences to your false beliefs. Yes, the blood of Christ is sufficient to save all -- but, it won't save all [at least for those in the flesh].

So, you rapturists better be darn sure that the rapture is true theology. In fact, you ought to give careful consideration to all the arguments posted against it. For, if you are wrong, you can see from the scriptures posted herein that you will have a lot to answer to before Christ.

Yes, David, I am sure that the 'rapture' is false theology. Yes, 'devil's tit' is an appropriate tag for you rapturists.

terluvire

07-04-2006, 06:04 AM

Good post Watchman. You certainly are blowing the trumpet, sounding the alarm. Good Job.

godchild

07-04-2006, 01:34 PM

Yes, watchman, keep showing how asinine you are. Keep blowing am's little horn. Good job! Can't you see all the people running to am in droves, crying "I want what he/she's having." http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

watchman_2

07-04-2006, 03:14 PM

godchild,

Did you see one mention of SC or PM in my post above?? Answer is == NO!

Only scripture provided -- so, TAKE HEED -- YOU DEVIL'S TIT!

danispeachy

07-04-2006, 04:51 PM

What is it about religion that brings out the worst in people? One things for sure, you all bring each other down, and cause each other to stumble. It's a shame too because you will be held accountable for it.

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

godchild

07-04-2006, 07:50 PM

Dani, Now come back and tell watchman how wonderful he is and how much you enjoy the way he expresses himself. Tell him you get a 'kick' out of his 'humorous posts'. Hypocrits!

"Unto you I lift up mine eyes, O you who dwell in the heavens. Behold, as the eyes of servants look to the hands of their masters, As the eyes of a maid to the hand of her mistress, So our eyes look to the Lord our God, Until He has mercy on us. Have mercy on us, O Lord, have mercy on us! For we are utterly filled with contempt. Our soul is exceedingly filled with the scorn of those who are at ease, with the contempt of the proud."

danispeachy

07-05-2006, 02:21 PM

I'll say it again...

What is it about religion that brings out the worst in people? One things for sure, you all bring each other down, and cause each other to stumble. It's a shame too because you will be held accountable for it.

You know a common theme amongst unbelievers is that they like the message of Christ but can't stand how so called Christians act. Looking over these posts, I can't blame them.

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

david_munson

07-06-2006, 04:49 PM

Note that this text Watchman twists,doesn't say that the woman isn't pregnant but explains the terminology "with child" which could mean standing next to or having a child with them but in this case as we look at the "FULL" context we see that it is indicative of "Being pregnant."

"I have already shown you that the word 'child' is only figurative in the Greek.

G1064
&#947;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#769;&#961;
gaste&#772;r
gas-tare'
Of uncertain derivation; the stomach; by analogy the matrix; figuratively a gourmand: - belly, + with child, womb."

Any one who refuses to see the plain text which carries with it the appropriate indicative showing contextual intent is either ignorant or purposefully blind.
Either that or they are following some man's tradition of error.

Make up your own mind.

The Lord,He is God.
Dave

}

smyrna

07-06-2006, 09:59 PM

The fact that after months of SC students defending the teachings of the chapel, there are still people posting here that bring the same tired accusations that have been shown to be falsehoods time after time. But still they act like there has never been a successful refutation of these allegations.

What that tells the reader who can make a fair observation is that it is clear there are those on this forum that are mainly, as Watchman describes, hecklers. I will add the adjective agitators.

Hecklers and agitators, from what I have observed, are not at all to be considered Bible scholars, that is, diligent students.

For if they were, they would not have to resort to deception, or gossip, or cutting and pasting from some very questionable sources. They would not use tactics made to divert from a subject. They would not have to resort to attacking the messenger rather than the message. They also would not stoop to treating Scripture that was clearly written in allegory as literal, and vice versa.

The most laughable posts that have come from the anti-Chapel crew are the ones where they seemingly grab from out of thin air things they claim are in a person's post, but are nowhere to be found.

For example, of you scroll up to the beginning of this thread, you will read my first post. Underneath that, you will read a post from Franklin that says "So dream truth, are you agreeing with smyrna that only white people are descended from Adam?"

Nowhere on Factnet, in this thread or any of the others, will you find any post written by me where I make that claim, though I do believe that to be so. And there is nothing racist about that.

But since franklin brought it up, in a nutshell this man's question shows us where his head is at on the subject.

Since he does not accept that the races were created separately, he reveals himself to be a person who:

Thinks Adam and Eve, as well as Mr. and Mrs. Noah, were capable of having children that were white, black, brown, and red, as well as oriental.

Knowing this, we can also safely assume that he also thinks that the Bible in its original languages describes a flood that covered the entire planet, that Noah was able to find polar bears, penguins, bald eagles, kangaroos, elk, and even thousands of different fresh water fish, in the middle east.

Given that, we also can assume that he thinks the giants were just big people that suddenly appeared out of nowhere, and that the "sons of God" of Genesis six were just regular guys that were real religious.

Finally, since it is obvious that his theology, if one can call it that, is based on puerile tales that have evolved from Medieval times.
They were embellished by modern authors, who simply continue to mythologize the Scriptures until people are so confused they are actually able to accept stuff like the Da Vinci Code, or the rapture, or even think that the locusts of Revelation nine will really be black helicopters.

But these are the same people that claim to be qualified to label Pastor Murray and his students heretics, false teachers, etc.

It is really something to behold.

david_munson

07-06-2006, 10:16 PM

NWRT

smyrna

07-06-2006, 11:09 PM

Focusing a bit more on the subject of the detractors in this forum who are adept at verbosity, yet actually say very little:

It is clear that few if any of thse folks will ever acknowledge that we chapel students have sucessfully defended many of the accusations against Shepherd's Chapel.

Nor will they ever wrest themselves from the childhood myths they hold so dear.
And that is fine, they are certainly free to believe whatever they want.

But this brings us to an interesting question:

What really brings them here to Factnet, and act the way the way they do? Why don't they just stay in their own Churches and keep to themselves?

How many of them take issue with the twenty thousand or so other independent Churches and denominations that exist?

Do they post all their nonsense and vile accusations on Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, etc. forums?

Have any of them ever bothered to tell us what Church or denomination they belong to?

It is interesting that I cannot recall any instance where they have done so. Few if any ever have told us where they studied theology, if they even have, which by the quality of their posts,is highly doubtful.

But if any of us do state where we studied and under whom, we are labled arrogant. Of course, this is just a tactic used to divert from the fact they do not have any formal theological training.

And that fact is plainly obvious.

Reading out of a concordance, copy and pasting from websites they agree with, is not what a theologian would do when addressing the issues.

And this is why they have no choice but to resort to playing games. They have nothing else that they can do.

Which begs the question once again: why are they here?

damon

07-07-2006, 12:22 AM

I don't think that any SC students have any rightfull claim to be able to say that people here have no formal theological training. How would any of you know?

No one here claims to have a doctorate in theology and refuses to disclose the source of that education like "Dr. Murray".

Can you list any formal theological educational institutions that teach what AM does, or is it home brewed? I doubt it very seriously since I have asked for a list historical persons who have taught what AM does and no one has offered a single name of anyone, past or present.

If AM knew anything about theology, he would know that literal and metaphorical interpretations cannot be applied at random will. The authors intent is the only correct interpretation.

Dr. David L. Cooper has eloquently stated a proper definition of the historical, grammatical, interpretive method when he declares, "When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise." (Dr. D.L. Cooper, The Messianic Series, parts 14, p. 3)

I bet Dr. Cooper is willing to state his source of education.

The word must be rightly divided, and that means that we are not to apply scipture addressed to someone else, to the body of Christ.

I also take issue with AM/SC assertion that his verse by verse bible study is "uniuqe". My current church utilizes expositional teaching. Mr. Murry is deceptive in that he aledges that expositional study is his own personal style when in fact most churches study topically and expositionally.

Factnet is here to expose cults.

Simple fact is that people come here to do just that, you come here to defend yours.

godchild

07-07-2006, 12:25 AM

I come here to expose the false doctrines of am/sc. Only those blinded by their own desires and foolish pride cannot see that. Not from the teachings of any 'denomination' but from the Word of God, which excludes the apocrypha, writings by bullinger, capt, allen or any other man, which are not the inspired words of God.

angie0401

07-07-2006, 12:26 AM

smyrna,
Don't you realize they are here to "save us" from the clutches of this horrible "cult" that we're in? They "feel so sorry for us" that they are just trying to help us with their hateful posts. They're just trying to show us poor, gullible, ignorant people how we've been "duped" by Pastor Murray.

What's that saying - with friends like them, who needs enemies?

godchild

07-07-2006, 12:26 AM

I come here to expose the false doctrines of am/sc. Only those blinded by their own desires and foolish pride cannot see that. Not from the teachings of any 'denomination' but from the Word of God, which excludes the apocrypha, writings by bullinger, am, capt, allen or any other man, which are not the inspired words of God but their own views.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 01:37 AM

Damon asks how any of us would know if any of the anti-Chapel hecklers/agitators have nay formal theological training. By their posts, of course!

As for the current state of theological study in major institutions, without getting into the evidence, I'd say that it is quite frightening indeed, what is already being taught.

I hope Pastor Murray DIDN'T go to Harvard Divinity School, for example.

As for the teachings of the Chapel, most of it is of no controversey whatsover. Were that not a fact, these threads would be addressing a whole lot of other stuff besides Kenites, Giants, the flood, and Adam and Eve.

damon

07-07-2006, 02:17 AM

Damon asks how any of us would know if any of the anti-Chapel hecklers/agitators have nay formal theological training. By their posts, of course!

 It would be just as easy to say AM has not attended any seminary due to the things he teaches.

I have some formal training but that is irrelevant.

Can you show any seminary or biblical college that teaches AM/SC doctrine? Can you provide a historical trail of such teachings as AM holds, proving that they are not new and of private interpretaion?

To state that all seminarys and bible colleges are bad(according to AM/SC students) proves that there is no such organizations, IMO.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 02:18 AM

Great post Angie. And don't you find it amazing that there are people who don't have any theological training at all, and claim they have the authority and ability to discount scholars both past and present. Like I've said before, they attack the messenger, when they can't really attack the message.

If one had the attitude that only reading Scripture was enough to understand and interpret what has been written, then I guess there is no need for that person to be in need of english translations of the original manuscripts, for example.
Nor would they have any need for teachers, even though it was Jesus Himself who sent His Apostles to teach the Gospel, even before there was a New Testament.There would have been no need for Paul, either, according to this person's version of logic.
And how could we even have a Bible if it were not for the early Church, who convened the council that actually assembled these texts into what we know as the Bible?
But this person thinks she doesn't need any of those people. What a loon.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 02:52 AM

Sorry Damon, but I never stated that all seminaries and colleges are bad. That statement is vague and does not adequately reflect my opinion.

Elements of Pastor Murray's teachings are indeed taught in seminaries and colleges. It was, as a matter of fact, as early as the Middle Ages that a German Abbess by the name of Hildegard of Bingen alluded to a literal rape of Eve in the garden. My source is Bernard Mcginn's book Anti-Christ: Two Thousand Years of Man's Fascination With Evil.
The reality of giants, speculation regarding the nature of the fallen angels, etc. all are topics discussed in seminaries, as are debates over whether the flood of Noah was a world wide event or a local one.
These are all reasons that I can cite to conclude the total lack of theological insight among the hecklers/agitators that we have in this forum.
Muuray, as a matter of fact, has mentioned the Documentary Hypothesis a few times, and if you can find my posts on the subject, you can tell thse folks know nothing of it, and its impact on Old Testament studies.
No other Bible teacher on television has ever spoken of this subject as far as I know, or the many other subjects that are common in today's religious institutions.
They are fundamentalists, for the most part, who have never gone beyond the Sunday School myths when it comes to Biblical studies.
They claim that the rapture is Biblical, yet NO Church for the first 1800 years of Church history ever heard of such a teaching.
Some believe in speaking in tongues, yet no Church has even had anyone who actually exhibited the miracle as it was described in the Book of Acts. Not one person, not any Church.
Some fundamentalists believe the Bible actually says you can literally go a drink poison and dance with poisonous snakes, though I never met a snake who went to dancing school, at least ones that didn't have any legs.
I jest of course, but scholars know that these simple folk took a Hebraism, a figure of speech, literally rather than its intended form, which was an idiom.
So before you say I cannot prove some of the people on this board are not qualified to opine that Bullinger was not a great scholar,or Arnold Murray does not know the Bible,you better read some of the total garbage these people have written in this forum.
Come on, Damon, we have people here who think Adam and Eve gave birth to children of all the races, they think Noah went on a worldwide safari collecting every species of animal in the world, and actually built a boat that could hold all of them.
They deny that giants existed,even though the Bible even states the size of one of their beds and also of the giant's spear.
They think some future dictator is going to make them wear 666 tatoos, or bar coades, or whatever their mark of the beast is this week. They think black helicopters will be piloted by demons that are half man and half animal.
But thse same people have the gall to challenge the work of Murray, Bullinger, Capt, and even the authors of parts of the Old Testament!
One right here claims that there is absolutely no need for man's participation in the Scripture:

"Not from the teachings of any 'denomination' but from the Word of God, which excludes the apocrypha, writings by bullinger, am, capt, allen or any other man, which are not the inspired words of God but their own views." (Heckler/agitator, July 6th post)

I guess the heckler has no idea that the OT Apocrypha was actually included in the original 1611 King James Bible. I guesss she would also deny that the extra-Biblical Psalms found among those that are included in the Bible (at Qumran) are not inspired by God, if she was aware they existed, which I doubt she does because she is no scholar.

damon

07-07-2006, 03:18 AM

I appreciate your responce Smyrna.

Elements of Pastor Murray's teachings are indeed taught in seminaries and colleges. It was, as a matter of fact, as early as the Middle Ages that a German Abbess by the name of Hildegard of Bingen alluded to a literal rape of Eve in the garden. My source is Bernard Mcginn's book Anti-Christ: Two Thousand Years of Man's Fascination With Evil.

I fail to see where stating that "elements" of AM teachings are taught in seminaries actually validates or proves the existance of a seminary or college that AM could have attended, recieved a doctrate, and walked away with the teachings he teaches. Unless he deliberatly afirmed their doctrine when he really did not.

I also fail to see how Bingen's "allusion" sunstantiates a historical trail for the "teaching" of the SS doctrine. Do you have any historical references that are more than allusions for me?

Thanx anyway for taking your time to respond. I will look into the reference you gave.

damon

07-07-2006, 03:31 AM

One more point,

 guess the heckler has no idea that the OT Apocrypha was actually included in the original 1611 King James Bible. I guesss she would also deny that the extra-Biblical Psalms found among those that are included in the Bible (at Qumran) are not inspired by God, if she was aware they existed, which I doubt she does because she is no scholar.

Maybe you should have said she is no "student" instead of "scholar".

I don't recall the heckler stating she was a scholar and I don't remember you posting a copy of your scholarly diplomas or certificates.

Maybe she has a theological doctrate (but only plays stupid) and choses not to state so or indulge us with such proof because she does not want to be judged by association by critics.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 03:52 AM

There is more. Since you as well as the others will not acknowledge that the Bible explains that satan seduced eve literally in the graden, then you should consider that ancient Jewish religious texts that were held sacred and still are, such as the Book of Enoch, hold that the fallen angels did indeed have sex with women, and that the result was giants.
Other ancient texts state that Cain himself was a giant, and this would stand to show that Cain was the son of satan and eve, not Adam.
Discovering that the fallen angels had sex with women helps us to understand that satan, also a fallen angel, led the way by seducing Eve.
Now the majority of Dead Sea Scroll scholars are quite aware of the Qumran texts that speak of fallen angles that came down from heaven and seduced women. This is no secret, except of course to fundamentalists.
Do a net search of nefilim, or nephilim, and you will find some intersting stuff. Some of it is some far out stuff to be sure, but you always have to sift through sand to find the gems.
One more point though. In numbers 13:33, the giants are referred to as the "sons of Anak". Anak comes from a Sumerian term, 'Annunaki' (do a search on that too)and Annunaki means "those who from heaven to earth came."
If you have ever wondered how the Egyptians came to believe that their Pharoahs were half human, and half gods, wonder no more. If you ever have wondered about the story of Osirus and Seth, compare it with Cain/Abel and you will see there was a connection.

arron

07-07-2006, 03:57 AM

godchild..david.... please pray for me. i just had to confront one of my grandsons, he is 18 and he is not too rebelous but has done some things against what he was raised in. first of all he went to his (his mama and daddys) house with his girlfriend, he was going to sleep with her there nad his mother told him no... not in her house so he left and came to mine ( this was a few weeks ago) his girl friend came too. i thought she had left but i found out about a week ago that he and her stayed in my house and slept together they got up and left the next morning before anyone got up. this was not known to me. when i found it out i decided he was not gong to do that any more. well he came to my house tonight i did not see his girlfriend but that is how they do sneak in. i told him he could not stay in my house and sleep with his girlfriend. he tried to deny it but i held on to what i knew. i do not want to ever hurt any of my grandchildren or anyone else for that matter. i do feel that i hurt him for he left immediatly. i will not have anyone who is not married sleep together in my house in my beds. but i dont want to hurt him or turn him away. this is the first time this has ever happened. i have always given to them what they wanted and helped them when ever i could.so he cant say i never have done anything for him but i still dont want to hurt him i feel so bad about it but i stll cant allow that to go on in y house. i dont believe in it at all. so pleas pray

smyrna

07-07-2006, 04:05 AM

Well Damon, all I can say about your latest post is at least you acknowledge that she is a heckler. To assume she may be playing stupid is absurd. First, she doesn't have to play stupid. What motive would she have? Secondly, you apparently are not at all familiar with the discussions on this board.
You would not be defending her if you were.
Now as for the other issues, I will just say that until I began to study under Pastor Murray, the Bible made very little sense to me. Now it makes a great deal of sense, and I have learned more about the Bible because of not only Pastor Murray, but because once I began to understand, I was inspired to study Scripture with a grater zeal.
I have visited and stayed in some of the oldest monastaries in the world, and have had long conversations with the monks and nuns about theology, and they are not as skeptical, I will have you know, than the fundamentalists on this forum.They are very open to the teachings of the SC, because there is little that is controverisal. Thye for example know of the Book of Enoch. I have talked with them at great length about the fallen angels and their cavorting with women. They were quite intrigued and I also carry on email discussions with them, some for years.
I have had Pastors from other denominations say they did not understand the Bible until I began to dialogue with them.
And what I am telling you is the truth, but it really matters not whther you believe it or not. I do what I do,I love God and Scriputre and I feel quite at ease with what I have learned, and am glad I have a clarity that has allowed me to get away from the Sunday School fairy tales that had me confused and frustrated.

damon

07-07-2006, 04:25 AM

Smyrna, I was just kidding and trying to be lighthearted. It is obvious to me that both sides have been "heckling" each other WAY before I got here.

I am aware of the Sethian vs Angelic interpretaions of the Gen6:4 "sons of God". I used to be a firm believer of the angelic interpretation. I even thought I had figured out how to overcome a major obstacle for that teaching, The lack of present day giants.

ANGELS MATING WITH MIDGETS DOES NOT PRODUCE GIANTS. LOL

damon

07-07-2006, 06:02 AM

Hi Arron,

I wanted you to know that I will be praying for you also.

I know you may not see it now, but if you would have allowed your grandson to continue to disrespect you, your house and values; it would have been the worst thing for him.

I can see that you love him very much and only have his best interest in mind, and he will see it too. He will come around to that.

Jesus, Please be with Arron as he goes through this trying time with his grandson. Impress on the grandsons heart the motives of Arrons heart. Bless them both for your glory.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 11:59 AM

Damon, if you knew your Bible a bit better, you would not have the nagging question as to why there are no giants today.
The reason is that most were destroyed in the flood, according to Appendix 25 of the Companion Bible, which you can find at http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/list.html

It explains in detail what happened to them, refernceing the appopriate Biblical texts. There may have been, as the appendix indicates, a few that escaped to other lands, and this of course would give rise to the fact that many ancient legends of South America, for instance, contain tales of giants that came "from the skies." You also may factor in that being hybrids, they were incapable of reproduction. Their survival as a peoples would have needed the intervention of the nephilim, who did not stay in the region, but apprently went back to whence they came.
Now one heckler, who actually thinks every appendix was written by E.W. Bullinger (he was the primary editor, but did not obviously do all the work)will continue to mock this great scholar, but since that is all she is capable of, I'll just leave it at that.
Bullinger of course is by no means the only scholar to recogize not only the existance of the giants. Since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have support for the true interpretation of Genesis 6. Now the fundamentalists can no longer, at least with any veracity, claim that the 'sons of God' were merely righteous people,(wow, they didn't even know they were evil!) and that the giants were just giants of their culture, as in our modern day idiom "larger than life."
Once again, I must point out that you will now find in these threads so called Bible believers that deny the existance of literal giants, and how they came to be, by the pairing of fallen angels and women. Too bad an ancient religious text, Enoch, as well as others, turned out to be a badly needed iconoclast for them.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 12:20 PM

MORE ABOUT E.W. BULLINGER

Ethelbert William Bullinger was born on December 15, 1837 in Canterbury, England. Educated at King's College, London, he was noted broadly for three works: A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (1877); for his ground-breaking and exhaustive work on Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (1898); and as the primary editor of The Companion Bible (published in 6 parts, beginning in 1909; The Archbishop of Canterbury granted him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree in 1881 in recognition of his biblical scholarship.

Now one heckler/agitator who obviously has not attained the status of Bullinger, chooses to criticize his work, though not academically. She does so foolishly.

Let's say that she will, for the sake of example, now disregard the Archbishop of Canterbury. She might say, "so what, he was just an Anglican prelate, who cares if he respected Bullinger's work?" So where would she go to find someone critical of Bullinger?

Well, she seems to have found this website:
http://withchrist.org/bullinger.htm

But it merely is another's opinion. And I thought she (heckler "Whackchild") had no regard at all for any man's opinions or writings, she could go straight to Scripture and find everything she wants, which, sadly, it appears she does.(doesn't the Bible warn agaisnt private interpretation? II Pet. 1:20)

But this is not about the heckler. It is about Bullinger. And he was a great scholar. No man is perfect, and anyone can criticize anyone else. But he was a great scholar, and respected by many other scholars, of ALL denominations.

By the way, notice that his doctorate was 'honorary.'

If Bullinger was alive and teaching today, would we have to wonder what individuals on this forum would be criticizing him and demanding to see his academic credentials?

Never mind reading any of his work. They would just want to see that good ol' sheepskin. And if he was foolish enough to show them, they would just criticize the institution where it was issued. Food for thought.

arron

07-07-2006, 01:54 PM

thanks damon for the prayers. i heard just this morning form his mother that he did not seem mad. he told her he had been to my house. he is at work now. continue to pray for all of us, thanks so much.

godchild

07-07-2006, 04:48 PM

arron, While your grandson may get angry at you, he will continue to respect you for your stand. Sounds like he is already over it. He knows you love him, and God loves him too. God bless you.

godchild

07-07-2006, 06:20 PM

godchild

07-07-2006, 06:37 PM

pete, I would thank you for the link, but you deserve no thanks. I am going to check it out, though.

scer's should read about Bullinger's father. Here was a true Biblical Scholar, who was a great reformer, with the likes of Martin Luther. Why his son got so far off-track, only God knows. If bullinger had simply written his own interpretation of the Bible, that would be one thing. But he added greatly to it, using his own opinions and the works of books not considered inspired by God, and therefore excluded, except by people like him who love the old celtic tales of giants the size of the ones in "Paul Bunyan" and "Jack and the Beanstalk", all fairy-tales, and the books by capt, which gives them their belief that the Israelites are 'white' and the stars tell them secret things, not the Holy Bible. By combining myths with Biblical history, they have come up with the most vile interpretations of Scripture ever given to man.

(from theseason.org, a website for scer's, though they deny affiliation, which is a joke, to be sure):
As Psalm 82 clearly shows, the term 'elohim can refer to the angelic sons of God (Psa. 82:6) who make up the heavenly divine council. Therefore, the author's use of this title is meant to describe the power and position of the firstborn Son. As he has already shown, the Son was no regular angel, no simple messenger. Instead, the Anointed was one of the exalted 'elohim, one of the divine council God had appointed to rule the nations of the earth. Specifically, God assigned the Messiah to rule over His portion, the nation of Israel (Deu. 32:9).

The next verse of the quotation confirms this identification. Whereas the Scriptures show that the other 'elohim have acted unjustly in the administration of their duties over the nations (Psa. 82:2-7), Psalm 45:7 tells us that the firstborn Son "loved righteousness and hated lawlessness." Because he chose his heavenly Father's ways instead of his own, he was elevated far above his "companions," the other members of the divine council. He will be given a throne above them all by God the Father, who is his God (cf. John 20:17; Rev. 1:6).
------------------------------
There is no other conclusion that can be reached (because Jesus is God), than that these people believe there are many gods. This is blasphemy!

godchild

07-07-2006, 06:40 PM

pete, I would thank you for the link, but you deserve no thanks. I am going to check it out, though.

scer's should read about Bullinger's father. Here was a true Biblical Scholar, who was a great reformer, with the likes of Martin Luther. Why his son got so far off-track, only God knows. If bullinger had simply written his own interpretation of the Bible, that would be one thing. But he added greatly to it, using his own opinions and the works of books not considered inspired by God, and therefore excluded, except by people like him who love the old celtic tales of giants the size of the ones in "Paul Bunyan" and "Jack and the Beanstalk" (which they proudly speak of on their websites), all fairy-tales, and the books by capt, which gives them their belief that the Israelites are 'white' and the stars tell them secret things, not the Holy Bible. By combining myths with Biblical history, they have come up with the most vile interpretations of Scripture ever given to man.

(from theseason.org, a website for scer's, though they deny affiliation, which is a joke, to be sure):
As Psalm 82 clearly shows, the term 'elohim can refer to the angelic sons of God (Psa. 82:6) who make up the heavenly divine council. Therefore, the author's use of this title is meant to describe the power and position of the firstborn Son. As he has already shown, the Son was no regular angel, no simple messenger. Instead, the Anointed was one of the exalted 'elohim, one of the divine council God had appointed to rule the nations of the earth. Specifically, God assigned the Messiah to rule over His portion, the nation of Israel (Deu. 32:9).

The next verse of the quotation confirms this identification. Whereas the Scriptures show that the other 'elohim have acted unjustly in the administration of their duties over the nations (Psa. 82:2-7), Psalm 45:7 tells us that the firstborn Son "loved righteousness and hated lawlessness." Because he chose his heavenly Father's ways instead of his own, he was elevated far above his "companions," the other members of the divine council. He will be given a throne above them all by God the Father, who is his God (cf. John 20:17; Rev. 1:6).
------------------------------
There is no other conclusion that can be reached (because Jesus is God), than that these people believe there are many gods, and that at in the least, they believe that Jesus became a god. This is blasphemy!

godchild

07-07-2006, 06:43 PM

pete, I would thank you for the link, but you deserve no thanks. I am going to check it out, though.

scer's should read about Bullinger's father. Here was a true Biblical Scholar, who was a great reformer, with the likes of Martin Luther. Why his son got so far off-track, only God knows. If bullinger had simply written his own interpretation of the Bible, that would be one thing. But he added greatly to it, using his own opinions and the works of books not considered inspired by God, and therefore excluded, except by people like him who love the old celtic tales of giants the size of the ones in "Paul Bunyan" and "Jack and the Beanstalk" (which they proudly speak of on their websites), all fairy-tales, and the books by capt, which gives them their belief that the Israelites are 'white' and the stars tell them secret things, not the Holy Bible. By combining myths with Biblical history, they have come up with the most vile interpretations of Scripture ever given to man.

(from theseason.org, a website for scer's, though they deny affiliation, which is a joke, to be sure):
As Psalm 82 clearly shows, the term 'elohim can refer to the angelic sons of God (Psa. 82:6) who make up the heavenly divine council. Therefore, the author's use of this title is meant to describe the power and position of the firstborn Son. As he has already shown, the Son was no regular angel, no simple messenger. Instead, the Anointed was one of the exalted 'elohim, one of the divine council God had appointed to rule the nations of the earth. Specifically, God assigned the Messiah to rule over His portion, the nation of Israel (Deu. 32:9).

The next verse of the quotation confirms this identification. Whereas the Scriptures show that the other 'elohim have acted unjustly in the administration of their duties over the nations (Psa. 82:2-7), Psalm 45:7 tells us that the firstborn Son "loved righteousness and hated lawlessness." Because he chose his heavenly Father's ways instead of his own, he was elevated far above his "companions," the other members of the divine council. He will be given a throne above them all by God the Father, who is his God (cf. John 20:17; Rev. 1:6).
------------------------------
There is no other conclusion that can be reached (because Jesus is God), than that these people believe there are many gods, and that at in the least, they believe that Jesus was a (created) being (angel) who became a god. This is blasphemy! It is the same teaching of mormonism, which js got from the 'uninspired' book of Enoch, which scer's also believe.

danispeachy

07-07-2006, 07:00 PM

Oh Just stop it Vivian.

Nobody listens to anything you say... You are not taken seriously. You do not prove any points, you do not bring logical well thought out biblical discussions to the table. When you keep spreading the lies, misconceptions and twisting and pulling out of context and insulting and denying and accusing; you only hurt yourself. You only prove time after time and post after post that your are someone to be ignored.

smyrna

07-07-2006, 09:59 PM

Danispeachy,
Just use this acronym:
WOTNWR

Waste Of Time, Not Worth Rebuttal

Whackchild is really the "Posterchild" for all the people who are obviously guilty of distortion, deception, deception by ommission, slander, lies, bearing false witness, in other words doing anything to discredit Pastor Murray and those who study with SC.
But since they have been documented, in other words caught red-handed both here and at places like my site at www.scripturetruth.homestead.com (http://www.scripturetruth.homestead.com),
anyone can simply read and see for themselves that these people have no credibility.
They have defeated themselves with their own words. But yet they just keep it up. But that is actually good for us.
After so many months of this, I agree that very few can truly side with the 'fab five.'

godchild

07-07-2006, 10:26 PM

Shhh! You can't learn when you're talking. Another hint from civilized society.

Wow! Look at the number of new people here who have joined the ranks of am/sc. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

smyrna

07-08-2006, 01:35 PM

One major fact that disproves many of the accusations levelled at Shepherd's Chapel is that the SC program has been on TV more than twenty years.

How many people view the SC, and consider it their Church? I doubt anyone has an accurate number.

But it must be in the hundreds of thousands. But it's not about numbers, so anyone who tries to either support or condemn the SC according to their perception of its growth rate is, well, an idiot.

What is important is the perseverance of the SC.

Here's the facts:

It cannot be a racist Church, since:

Minority members of SC are numerous.

No major defensive group such as NAACP, ACLU, JDF have ever lodged a complaint against SC.

No major news organization in twenty years has ever highligted or reported on this alleged racist organization.

SC is not a cult, for the same reasons.
No anti-cult group has ever had to "deprogram" an SC member.

SC is not even listed among MOST cult watch group websites. The ones who do try and justify listing the SC as a cult by using deceptive representations of what SC teaches.

The heckler above tries to imply that simply because there are not a lot of new participants on the Factnet forums that support SC somehow means the SC is not a growing Church. How illogical is that?

Anyone who started going to the SC's Fall Fellowship and Passover meetings in Arkansas every year knows more and more people attend each year.

But once again, it's not about numbers that is important. It's about the perserverance of a Church that has been able to thrive over many years,in spite of the accusations against it.

Why is that? Because we have the right to practice our religion in this country and many others.

Those who seek to destroy the SC are no better than terrorists who want to destroy Christianity as a whole,so they can supplant it with their own brand of religion.

danispeachy

07-08-2006, 04:03 PM

"Those who seek to destroy the SC are no better than terrorists who want to destroy Christianity as a whole,so they can supplant it with their own brand of religion."

You know Smyrna, I do think that is correct. I was raised as a Christian but really lost faith when I was a teen. Not because I didn't believe in God or Christ but really because I had come across so many so-called Christians who acted horribly. I thought, if Christianity teaches people to be so horrible to others, I want no part of it. After Father drove me into his word using AM, I came to understand why far too many so called Christians acted so horribly. It's a simple answer really and while some may find it mean, it's true... They are not Christians, they are just paying lip service, they are really doing the works of Satan. Anybody who understands what will be happening in the end times can understand how easy it will be to come about.

Taking Vivian for example, she lies, accuses, and cheats (by her twisting of contexts). Those behaviors are not ones that a Christian, a true Christian, displays. Just the opposite, it is the behaviors that Satan and his followers display. Actions speak louder than words, so anyone can call themselves a Christian, but it's how they act that truely determines if they are. If one visists the atheists sites they can see a common denominator behind their dislike of Christianity, antichristian behavior by Christian claimers.

I was thinking last night as I tried to fall asleep and do you know who I thought about? Vivian. I had been thinking that Vivian was a lonely bitter miserable old women who was just looking for attention. Even negative attention is attention. So I decided to pray for her. Now this morning after reading her posts, I've changed my mind. Her problems are far deeper than that. She has been taken over by Satan. It is his behaviors she displays and his will that she does. I no longer believe that appealing to her Christianity and showing scripture regarding christian behavior will work. She is too far gone for that. All we can do is pray. Pray that Jesus will break the chains Satan has hold of her with. I've decided to include her in my daily prayers and hope others will follow suit.

smyrna

07-08-2006, 04:52 PM

Danispeachy,

I've thought about what psychosis is in play in the group I call the 'fab five' which includes of course 'Godchild.'

And yes, her problems run very deep. Unless one is as off the wall as her, there can be absolutely no denial that she intentionally distorts, lies, misrepresents, and otherwise uses tactics specifically intended to deceive.

Now the only defense, if you can call it that, she can provide for her own behavior is that it actually is we SC folks that are guilty of all those things. And that, my friend, is really no defense at all.

My website www.scripturetruth.homestead.com (http://www.scripturetruth.homestead.com) is full of examples of out and out lies and deliberate misrepresentations that are currently published on anti-SC websites.

Their publishers have been shown to be less than credible people, and in some instances, there are indications that they are currently paying for their actions. One shut her site down,(www.scripture_truth.homestead.com (http://www.scripture_truth.homestead.com)) after being barraged by posts to her guestbook that showed she was lying.

Another, cultlink.org, is so outdated and obviously mismanaged that anyone who takes it seriously deserves to be deceived.

Yet another, carm.org, is so prejudiced against vitrually anyone who is not a "second degree Calvinist" that anyone can see through the arrogance of the publisher.

Now you say that you are praying for these types of individuals. I do too, and I also pray for guidance for myself.

But I'll end this post by saying that these people cannot merely be misguided.

I refuse to believe they are not aware they are lying. The only way they could actually not be aware they are lying, is to be clinically mentally incompetent, where they do not have any sense of good or evil. And since they are quick to point out the evil they see in SC, what is left?

godchild

07-08-2006, 04:54 PM

Would it be better if I said I was only 'joking'? Okay, let's see how you like this (only joking of course). Danis sucks the devil's tit, smyrna is satan's #2 son (his dad screwed a human), after watchman who is not only satan's #1 son, but is am's whore and pimp. People who believe satan is in heaven are doomed for hell. People who think of am as their 'shepherd' are of the antichrist, and followers of satan. People who believe there were giants roaming the earth and stepping over countries are 'whacko's'. Gentiles who believe they are Israelites are coveteous, hatefilled people who are so 'jealous' of God's chosen people, they will do or say anything, especially changing, adding to and taking away from scripture, to influence others to believe their hatefilled lies. And even say Jesus was an angel (created being) while professing (liars) to follow Him.
Are you all giggling at my 'sense of humour'? Well, if not, why not? Aren't I cute? Don't lie in your beds thinking about Vivian. Get on your knees before God and seek forgiveness.

Do I hate? I hate what God hates!

david_munson

07-08-2006, 05:15 PM

Oh,
so now we have someone who has studied psychology?
Good,
let's have at it.I studied abnormal bahavioural modification.
That is why I see so much manipulation planted within a statement so readily.
Manipulation that is like a catch twenty two.You can't respond because the statement is a challenge to whether or not you're really a Christian and it is purposefully designed to force a desired responce by the poster.

Many assumptions are being made off hand by people who know nothing of the other.
This is done without any of the Spirit's leading.

The Spirit was sent to show us all things and to reveal Christ to the world.
Christ being the only hope for mankind.

Christ being the ONLY way to the Father.
Which point is central to the Word.

}

smyrna

07-08-2006, 05:19 PM

re last post: WOTNWR

david_munson

07-08-2006, 05:33 PM

Yeah,
that's a good move.
A real good move.

Avoid getting in over your head.

}

godchild

07-08-2006, 05:47 PM

pete not only defends this practice, he approves it:
smyrna
Intermediate Member
Username: smyrna

Post Number: 184
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 72.150.44.58
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:51 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey folks, you may think that Manu doesn't like me. You know, with all the snide remarks and name calling.
But when you look deeper, you can see he really likes me, and looks out for his new friend.
He provides me legal advice. He plugs my website.
All for free!
Publicity and legal assistance can be very expensive.
Thanks Manu!

GODCHILD: Now as for Godchild, wouldn't you think that this person would be happy to parade around the evidence that Pastor Murray has some "affiliation...not in the U.S. but overseas."
Once again, accusations, but no evidnce. And what about affilaiation? What if he did? And with whom?
Pastor Murray has offshore bank accounts? If so, so what? Guess what Godchild? Maintaining offshore bank accounts to avoid paying taxes is LEGAL.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQR/is_4_13/ai_30114303

If you don't believe that site, then just put legao offshore tax shlters in any search engine and take your pick.

It is our responsibility as taxpayers to use any means we may choose to legally hold down out tax obligations.
------------------------------
Put that on your website, jerk!
Oh ye of little faith. Don't you know the Lord will provide? Don't store up for yourselves treasure on earth! You can't take it with you. Sell all that you have, give to the poor and follow me. Throw out that manmade book, and study the Word.

smyrna

07-08-2006, 06:16 PM

Now you see, Godchild is so whacked out she actually thinks that she has provided evidence that proves that I stated that Arnold Murray has overseas bank accounts.

The issue is not what my opinion is about using tax shelters. The issue is whether Arnold Murray has overseas bank accounts. I never said that.

My website is not about how we handle our tax obligations. No reason to put anything reagrding that issue on there.

It is about how people like Godchild, who once again has shown her knack for obscuring facts, usies smokescreens and other deceptive tactics to try and cover her tracks. Too bad she does such a poor job of it!

By the way, she never did provide any evidence regarding HER claims that Murray has offshore bank accounts. That is outrageuous to the nth degree.

Once again, any reader who can follow a sentence knows she has not provided the proof I asked for.

Take a look at her post folks. Is there or is there not a statment where I claim to have knowledge of Arnold Murray's personl finances? Where does it say I claim to know he has overseas accounts?

IT IS NOT THERE. And that post, along with her original post where she accuses me, plus my challenge for her to prove it, will be placed on my website.

godchild

07-08-2006, 06:24 PM

No. I have shown that your comments do not disprove that am has tax shelters, which was my original statement that you responded to with this. You mock me because I study from the Word, and not the words of men. Hypocrit. You can see here that you all admire this in yourself, but mock others for the same:
terluvire
Junior Member
Username: terluvire

Hi danis,

You said:
The appeal of SC isn't the Kenite theory or the Lost tribes theory it's actually diving into the word of God. How many churches/preachers out there tell you straight out to read the word for yourself and not to listen to what man says but what God says? Sadly SC is the only one I know of. I think if you were to take a poll of SC students you would see that the majority feels the same way.
-----------------------
Problem is, you aren't truthful. If am says it, you spread it as gospel. Liars and hypocrits. Take the poll.

godchild

07-08-2006, 06:53 PM

Another deluded comment is that am dedicates his 'whole' life to the ministry. If that is so, how does he find time to 'make money' that you consider none of your business? Ha-ha-ha! Make up your mind, Dunderheads! Support him all you want, but stop saying it is God's work.

smyrna

07-08-2006, 07:06 PM

According to Whackchild's logic, Paul, who not only dedicated his life to Christ, and also had a business as a tentmaker,(Acts 18:1-3) couldn't really have dedicated his life to Christ, because he made tents too.
Observe people, the desparation. Observe her confidence, as she makes a complete imbecile of herself. Observe, my friends, how her hate has clouded her logic.

david_munson

07-08-2006, 07:35 PM

Comparing Arnold Murray to Paul the Apostle is at best a joke.
(that applies to any teacher or pastor in any denomination or gathering,not just AM)
AM is no Paul nor is he an Apostle.

Paul knew what he was talking about.
Paul knew Christ and concidered that most important.
1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

(Yes I know ,we study the whole Bible of which Christ is the central focus)

}}}

smyrna

07-08-2006, 07:44 PM

More of the same smokescreens. Does anyone who has reading comprehension see that I was not comparing people, but situations?
Does anyone really think that you cannot dedicate your life to Christ and hold a job at the same time?
That is the issue. That is the subject. No wonder these people can't understand so much about Scripture.
Once again, for the mentally impaired:

The subject is dedicating your whole life to Christ, and whether it is possible to have a job and be wholly dedicated to Christ at the same time.
It is not about comparing Paul to Arnold Murray, or Arnold Murray to Paul.

Is that clear enough?

One thing I won't do, is compare any of the "fab five" to people that can follow a sentence or paragraph without getting completely lost and confused.

The post above was written by an idiot. Does anyone want to challenge that?

david_munson

07-08-2006, 07:53 PM

Don't need to challenge that,just need to quote you.

"Once again, for the mentally impaired."

Wonderful example of who Christ is isn't it?
Or is it?

You are right,the post above this one was written by an idiot.
I'm sorry,I meant a MORON.

WOTNWR

}

smyrna

07-08-2006, 08:10 PM

Ok folks, there you have it. No admittal that the poster above misread my post. No mention of the fact that their reply was based on a misunderstanding of my original reply to their false accusation based upon their not understanding, or pretending they didn't.

No, just angry name calling and that is just an attempt to throw readers off the main subject. And that subject is how these "fab five" folks either can't comprehend a paragraph, or pretend they don't and hope they don't get caught, all in an attempt to deceive the reader into accepting THIER
ridiculous interpretation of another's post.

Read the thread, for those who can, and see for yourself. They are either idiots, or cunning deceivers, you make the call.

david_munson

07-08-2006, 11:51 PM

Angry?
Not unless that is a confession and I don't get the impression that you are actually angry.
Maybe flustered.

I certainly am not angry.
I do know that this medium is difficult,lol to make exact emotional expression clear unless it's in the extreme.

One would have to do a lot of reading to see why we are at this point on this topical thread.
It involves a few things besides doctrinal differances but I leave that up to the reader.

Gee Smyrna,
narrative is fun.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Humor Smyrna,just humor.
You do like humor don't you?

Signed,
the Rapturist.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

}

smyrna

07-09-2006, 12:06 AM

Well, one thing I can say is that when these people are cornered, and they have no way out but to start making excuses.
They deny they are angry. They say they are joking. They blame it on difficulties arising from this medium. Or one has to read all the posts to really understand what is going on.
All these excuses from just one post. It must be a record.

david_munson

07-09-2006, 12:19 AM

I was "joking" about the narrative statement.
Plain to see.

I am not ANGRY!!!!!
(couldn't resist)
It's true though,I'm not angry,I don't have any reason to be.

The medium isn't the best.

Simple,plain and simple.

Plus,with all the narrative you've given,thought manipulation is easy to spot.

G-A-C.
Besides that,you missed the bold CULT type in difficult.
Smyrna,
you are slipping.

}

godchild

07-09-2006, 12:48 AM

"This Bible Study is written by Roger Christopherson, and it's transcription/ location is provided by: http://www.theseason.org/plough.htm"

There are three basic earth ages, while the third is basically divided into two parts. The start of these earth ages was at a time far in the eons of the past, millions of years ago.

First Earth Age:

The first earth age was the time spoken of in Genesis 1:1, II Peter 3, and Jeremiah 4:18 to the end of the chapter.

Mankind did not exist in the flesh, however the animal world did. It was far more expanded then what is common in this earth age. An example of this is in the elephant world, where there are three known species existing today, living in the world. In the first earth age, there were over thirty types that have been dug up.

All souls were created in the first earth age, and lived in what we call their soul bodies. The reason that we find no fossils today dating back beyond 6,000 to 10,000 years is because man did not exist in the flesh body. All souls were in existence then.
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 12:50 AM

cont.
It was also in the first earth age that Satan, the most beautiful of all angels allowed his pride to overcome him, and the fall, of not only Satan came, but one third of all souls that existed then also fell.

This brought about the Fall of Satan, and the end of the first age. It is because of that fall, or "toho va boho" the destruction, where by all animals and living forms on earth came to an end.

8414 tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain: KJV-- confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) naught, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: KJV-- emptiness, void.
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 12:54 AM

Second Earth Age:

The second earth age started with Genesis 1:2, and God's plan of reconstruction of this earth, and all that was to live on it, began. This is the age of the flesh, whereby all souls were required to be born of woman, from the womb, [of water, within the womb] And be tried and tested, and for this God gave each soul what is called "free-will". They had the right to chose God, or Satan.

However there are some that were special in this earth age, for they are the ones that took a stand against Satan's rebellion against God, and thus they were judged and set aside in that first earth age, and those people are what we call the "elect".

The purpose of God sending a Son to be born of woman, was established before the start of this flesh age, for God laid his plan out in the constellations in the heavens, and that is what the signs of the ages are.
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 12:56 AM

cont.
Now it is important to know that the races were created separate and prior to Adamic, or "ruddy complected man", and it was through the Adamic race that God selected to send His Son, through the womb of woman, Mary. This is why it was forbidden of mixed marriages in the beginning, for Satan had polluted mankind with his sexual union with Eve, and from that union came Cain, and his offspring, the Kenites.

So now lets look at the time frames of this second earth age:

First period, from Adam to the flood, which was about 1,800 years, and ended with the flood of Noah's day. It covers the time span of ten generations.

Second period, from Noah's flood, to the Abraham covenant. This was approximately 400 years,

Third period, from the Abrahamic covenant to the time Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt. This period included the birth of Isaac, and his son Jacob, who's name was changed to Israel by God. Israel had twelve sons, and those twelve sons bred from twelve families into a nation of twelve tribes.
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 12:59 AM

cont.
Forth period, from Moses leading the children out of Israel to entering into promised land. Time; forty years. This was the time in the wilderness, when God gave the laws, statutes and ordinances.

Fifth period, The time of the judges to the monarchy, which was about 450 years. During this time Israel was ruled by Judges, that God appointed.

Sixth period, The time of the Monarchy to the split of the kingdom. This time was about 120 years. During this time, Israel was ruled by King Saul [the Benjaminite] for 40 years. Then King David for another 40 years, and King Solomon for another 40 years. When King Solomon died, the kingdom was split into two houses, also called nations. The names of these two nations were; "the House of Israel" and "the House of Judah".

Seventh period is "split"
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 01:01 AM

cont.
The rule of the House of Israel was about 200 years, to the time of captivity by Assyria.

The rule of the House of Judah was about 320 years, when Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon brought Judah into captivity.

The House of Israel comprised the ten tribes to the north, all except Judah and Benjamin, with the tribe of Levi the priests for all the tribes. This House of Israel was captured and scattered in 722 B.C., and are known today as the Christian nations. The Tribes became so scattered that they lost the identity to themselves, and became known only as Caucasians.

The House of Judah comprised the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, with part of the tribe of Levi. These people later became know as the Jews, because they mixed with the Kenites, and allowed themselves to be taken over by these Kenites, while in captivity in Babylon. God deals with Judah and Israel separately in scriptures.

Eighth period, Israel never comes back as a nation until the Millennium age.
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 01:04 AM

cont.
Judah spends 70 years in captivity, in which time the Levitical priesthood is completely taken over by Kenites, and mixes into the house of Judah so that they are accepted as children of God and Israel, when in fact they are of the Satan, and will ultimately kill Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

Ninth period, This period was about 605 years. Close of the Old Testament, to the Birth of Christ. This period starts with the Jews coming out of Babylon, released by Cyrus the Great, and led by Ezra and Nehemiah back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple, and city of Jerusalem. It was at this time that these prophets saw the pollution taking place with the scripture, because the scribes were nothing but Kenites [II Chronicles 2:55]. Thus they created a fence around the scriptures, called the Massorah, where by the writings could not be changed.
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 01:07 AM

cont.
It was during the Ninth period that the Grecian [Hellenists] came to power, and the world was split into four parts, called the king of the north, south, east and west. The King of the north was Salucid Leggit, who ruled from Syria to India. The king of the South was Ptolomy Soto, who ruled Egypt, all Africa and the Arabian area of today. The king of the east was Lysandrius, who later died and the kingdom shattered into small nations in what we call Eastern Europe today, and the king of the west was Casandrus, who also died without a legacy, and this kingdom was later built into the Roman empire.

Tenth period, will be about 2000 years, up to the time of the coming of the Antichrist. This is the Christian period where Salvation is open to all mankind of every race, who will believe on Jesus Christ and repent of their sins in Jesus name.
to be cont.

godchild

07-09-2006, 01:10 AM

cont.
Eleventh period, This is the time of the Antichrist, and has been shortened to five months, per Revelation 9:5, 10 All the world will give themselves over to Antichrist, except God's elect. It is a closed period, where you will either be sealed with the Word of God, or you will not. It is absolute. The elect will be sealed, all others will not.

Third Earth Age:

The start of mankind out of the flesh body, as Paul explains in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

Twelfth period, The Millennium age, 1,000 years, ending with Satan released and many falling back into worshipping him. This age is man in their soul bodies, for all flesh will be disposed of in this Millennium age. It is a time of discipline, and learning, and all men will be judged at the end of this period, By their works only.
to be cont.

terluvire

07-09-2006, 01:14 AM

Now who is it that complains all the time about tons of posts in a row????

smyrna

07-09-2006, 01:15 AM

Are we finally getting through to the leader of the "fab five"?

Wow, copying and pasting stuff from theseason.org without any snide, negative, malicious commentary.

Is she reforming? We can only hope so.

Munsun's post: WOTNWR (He needs to beam up to his leader)

But wouldn't it be more prudent just to reference the material and post the link?

godchild

07-09-2006, 01:21 AM

cont.
The elect will be the joint teachers, priests and judges with Jesus Christ during this period, and they only will have received the rewards of their incorruptible [liable to die, flesh bodies], in immortal [eternal] bodies.

Thirteenth period, Judgment, the Great white throne of judgment, where all men are judged by their works, the saved Elect will not be judged here but receive rewards, the evil, and sinful souls with go with Satan into the lake of fire and become ashes, non existent. Even the memory of those will be taken from the minds of the souls with eternal life.

Fourteenth period, Eternal kingdom. New heaven and a new earth, the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven, with its streets paved with gold, and all rewards will be eternal.

this period never ends.--the end
-----------------------------------
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what this cult believes and teaches; though much has been shared in a twisted, more palatable way, by the followers here. Judge for yourselves.

They will be quick to answer that am/sc is not 'affiliated with' the season. Let them. Each and every one of them has posted there about these false teachings. Simply go to 'the fig tree'. They will even say each has their own opinion. Let them. They have placed themselves in the 'we' category too often to deny now. May God have mercy on their souls.

franklin

07-09-2006, 01:26 AM

Yeah David! Great suggestion. Beam up to the Space Voyager. We're headed to Yarrum to kick some serpent seeder butt! You don't want to miss out on that action do you? We've got the phasers set on stun. You supply the steel toed boots! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

godchild

07-09-2006, 01:53 AM

FROM THESEASON.ORG (CELTIC HERITAGE)
The Coming of Patrick (Jeremiah) to Ireland
St Patrick and his identity - Jeremiah Tradition records the coming of the royal princess, Tamar Tephi, to Ireland in an ancient sailing ship in the year 583 B.C. Princess Tephi (a direct descendant of King David of the Bible) was the daughter of Zedekiah (the last King of Judah in Jerusalem) who was taken captive to Babylon. It is believed that after she made her escape to Ireland with Jeremiah (famous prophet of the Old Testament), she married Eochaid the Heremon, a prince of Israelite descent and closely allied with the tribe of Dan. From Ireland, this throne subsequently moved to Scotland, and finally to England, where it is established today under Queen Elizabeth. In considering the matter of genealogy, some may question how Zedekiah's daughter could have been a link in this Royal lineage. God made it clear centuries before that, "If a man die, and have no son then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass to his daughter," as is done in Britain's Royal House (Numbers 27:8).

The College of Heralds (London) has traced Queen Elizabeth II to be the 144th direct descendant of King David.

With an awareness of God's great heritage and promise, a special medal was struck to commemorate the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II on 2 June 1953, clearly depicting the arrival of the throne at the British Isles.

God promised King David ( Psalm 89:36) that the line of David would endure forever as the sun and would continue to occupy the throne of Israel "until He (Jesus) come whose right it is, and I will give it to Him" (Genesis 49:10) The British monarchy is unique in this respect. It has survived invincibly for many centuries with all attempts to overthrow it failing. (Ezekiel 21:27)

Related Links:
David's Line
The Stone of Destiny
Suggested Reading: Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, J.A. Allen
Available at The Shepherd's Chapel

watchman_2

07-09-2006, 01:55 AM

godchild's post:

People who believe satan is in heaven are doomed for hell. 

Since when did God cede authority to godchild to judge who is and who is not going to hell??

Oh, for godchild to claim that Satan is already here on earth, then she must be able to tell us when, in history, certain events took place.

The first beast of Rev. 13 would have preceded Satan.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Well, what happens when this beast is here?

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Gee godchild, when has all the world wondered after the beast? Seems to me that this has not happened yet.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Gee, it looks like everyone worshipped Satan for 42 months. Which 42 months was this godchild?

And, look Satan has not even appeared yet.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Which beast is this one?

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. 

Wow, it looks like it is Satan himself.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Since Satan has only a short time, then Satan must have appeared recently. Maybe, godchild can point out to us when Satan did appear.

godchild's whacko claim that Satan is currently here may top all of her whacky claims.

godchild

07-09-2006, 02:01 AM

No affiliation there, right? Lies, lies, and more lies! Where is your shame?

Now, if the shepherd's chapel doesn't have a bookstore, how ya gonna get ahold a these books from there, eh? Why, they must just hand them out free. They have a phone no. Why don't you call and ask for your copies? See what they say. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

And, what about ol am teaching only from the scriptures, chapter by chapter and verse by verse? Tch, tch!

smyrna

07-09-2006, 02:12 AM

Abiyah, or anybody who belongs to SC: Have you recieved the latest SC book, tape and CD list?

I have many tapes of the teachings, you know the ones that are line by line, chapter by chapter, book by book coverage. I have all of Isaiah, Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, and a few others, and many single subject study tapes.

I see they are changing over to CD's which I think is great.

To New SC Students:

I know that theseason.org does not have any connection to the SC, though many chapel students frequent the discussion boards and study at that site. But I haven't visited there in some time.

I do know that you can't get the SC tapes or CD's unless you write or call the Chapel directly. But Artisan publishers you can buy most, if not all of E. Raymond Capt's books, plus other good resource books as well.

So if any of you new SC students want an audio tape, video, or CD of the SC programs, or other boooks from their book list and other study tools, just call the Shepherd's Chapel at 1 800 643 4645.

They are inexpensive, especially compared to those ministries that are in business for the money. Just check out what the SC has and compare it to the other TV ministries, you'll see what I mean.

As a matter of fact, once I convert to CD fro audio tape, I will be handing out all my tapes. And yes, for free!

godchild

07-09-2006, 02:29 AM

1 Chron. 21:1 satan provoked David
Job 1:12 satan went from the presence of the Lord
Matt. 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8 get thee behind me, satan
Acts 5:3, why hath satan filled thine heart
1 Tim. 5:15, some have turned aside after satan
John 14:30 satan prince of this world
Matt. 4:3-10 temptor of Christ
Gen. 3 temptor of Eve
Job 2:7 tempter of Job
Zech. 3 resisting Joshua, rebuked
Luke 22:31 desired to have Simon
Luke 22:3, John 13:3 enters into Judas Iscariot
Acts 5:3 enters into Ananias
Please don't tell us you don't believe the devil and satan are one and the same. Rev. 12:9, 20:2, called that old serpent.
Rev. 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue, hath his name Apollyon. (from Strong's, 'a destroyer, satan.
from Strong's definition of the devil= a traducer, satan

abiyah

07-09-2006, 02:32 AM

Symrna WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" Abiyah, or anybody who belongs to SC: Have you recieved the latest SC book, tape and CD list? "
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifWell hello there Symrna;

And Peace unto you; Yes.. I also have many, many C.D.'s and actually received the CD List. I also have numerous Bible Books on Tape from The Shepherd's Chapel, truly I am blessed because many of The Bible books I have on tape were given to me as a gift. I have many books from E. Raymond Capt. as well, and many VHS Shepherd's Chapel Broadcasts. I love to Study The Word of The LORD along with pastor Murray and The Shepherd's Chapel. And I thank our Father from the bottom of my heart, for all that He has given. : )

Abiyah

godchild

07-09-2006, 02:36 AM

Thanks for clearing that up for terlu, who called me a liar for saying so. (there goes your big mouth again). http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

And you know theseason.org doesn't have any connection, eh. Can you read? Those lies just roll off your tongue like spit?

abiyah

07-09-2006, 03:08 AM

godchild WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" Thanks for clearing that up for terlu, who called me a liar for saying so. (there goes your big mouth again). "
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gifHmmm..... I scrolled back to find where she called you a ' liar ', and well I did not see that, but hey... maybe I missed it. But Vivian.. come on, lets be honest here, you know good and well that you have told a many, many, numerous outright lies in the past here on this message board. Whoopsy !

AND... godchild WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" "This Bible Study is written by Roger Christopherson, and it's transcription/ location is provided by:

http://www.theseason.org/plough.htm " "
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gifOhh Vivian ..... I'm so glad you put this link up, GREAT Bible Study link ! Good Job girlfriend ! : ))

Abiyah

arron

07-09-2006, 03:15 AM

godcchild, david, preachers daughter... please continue to pray for my grand son, the one in the army. he is due to leave in a few days for irag. he is a gunner on one of the tanks. i fear for him. i am praying that THE LORD will keep him as he goes and will hold him in THE PALM OF HIS HAND. he is saved and he shows a lot of love to me especially here eof late. my heart is grieved so much. pleas help me in this. i know this is off topic but please dont forget him nor me.

smyrna

07-09-2006, 03:23 AM

Arron,

I'll put our differences aside and want to say that I admire all the men that choose to fight for what is right. May the hand of God protect him on his missions.
I pray for him and you and your family, that they see him return home and safe and may our efforts to bring Iraqis the freedom so many here take for granted.

franklin

07-09-2006, 03:28 AM

That is a good prayer smyrna. I'll pray the same. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

arron

07-09-2006, 04:27 AM

thanks franklin i meant to include you a little while ago when i posted but i forgot your name. i do forget sometimes sorry.
i am thankful for every ones prayers.

arron

07-09-2006, 04:30 AM

symrna... thanks for the prayer. i feel he will be taken well care of but i suppose you know how it is when you just have concerns.

arron

07-09-2006, 04:31 AM

perhaps this is a time of healing.

watchman_2

07-09-2006, 04:55 AM

godchild should know that Satan's evil spirit roams the earth -- she is filled with it. She fails to recognize the difference between Satan's spirit and Satan himself.

angie0401

07-09-2006, 06:01 AM

Vivian,
You've again ignored other's copyright protection. I'll be sure to notify FactNet and the season.org of your theft.

Here is the note at the bottom of the study you printed in full.

These studies may not be reproduced collectively, or in successive part, on any website, email or library without expressed written consent.

These studies may be shared in part for study or printed out in single copy for private study purposes provided the following is
included with each and every excerpt or copy:
"This Bible Study is written by Roger Christopherson, and it's transcription/ location is provided by: http://www.theseason.org/plough.htm"

I know you think this is your own private soapbox, but I assure you it is a public forum and you just reproduced this work without consent.
Lovely, lovely Christian behavior - as usual. You really need help. I've watched you unravel more and more over the last several months. I hope some of your friends will see and help you before it's too late. And I will continue to pray for you, as I have for a long time now and I don't need your permission to do it.

angie0401

07-09-2006, 07:14 AM

For future reference, Vivian, here is FactNet's policy on what you just did:

We would like you to post breaking news and news stories, but do not post copyrighted material you do not own or currently have written permission from the owner to post.

Your use of these message boards constitutes your agreement to be fully responsible both legally and financially for all your postings/actions on these boards.


And in case you wondered exactly what FactNet is here for:
FACTNet supports the rights of everyone to believe whatever they want or to follow whatever faith they wish. FACTNet's sole concern is with any unethical influence tactics used to create beliefs.

Anybody can unfairly attack a group they disagree with by calling it a destructive cult or saying they are using coercive mind control tactics. FACTNet posts specific criteria to determine if a mind control system has been used and if destructive cultic tactics are being used. Because someone in our message boards says some organization is a destructive cult or using mind control does not mean FACTNet says that. You will need to examine the evidence and make up your own mind.

plow_deep

07-09-2006, 10:57 AM

Wow!

That was an interesting study regardless of the issues over posting it.

watchman_2

07-09-2006, 03:29 PM

angie,

Great work! Vivian has already been proven to be a liar, a libelist, disingenuine, a poor documenter, a misquotist, and many other things. Now, she can add a copyright infringer onto her resume.

She will have a lot of explaining to do on judgment day!

franklin

07-09-2006, 03:50 PM

And so will you watchman. All of us will. But Christ will know me. Will He know you?

watchman_2

07-09-2006, 04:05 PM

franklin [godchild-lite],

I don't have to wait until judgment day to know that Christ knows me. When I expose you and your cohorts for your false beliefs, my blessings from God keep rolling in. My dilemma is figuring out how to collect them all.

But, thanks for your concern.

abiyah

07-09-2006, 04:23 PM

Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
" please continue to pray for my grand son, the one in the army. he is due to leave in a few days for irag. he is a gunner on one of the tanks. i fear for him. i am praying that THE LORD will keep him as he goes and will hold him in THE PALM OF HIS HAND. he is saved and he shows a lot of love to me especially here eof late. my heart is grieved so much. pleas help me in this. i know this is off topic but please dont forget him nor me. "
-------------------------------------------------

Peace unto you Aaron;

Your call for prayer has moved me. Please.... try to not let your heart be troubled brother, blessed is he that trust in The LORD. I will indeed pray for your grandson, who is very brave and courageous, and has been well trained to carry out his duty, but find comfort in knowing that there are many, many Christians who are praying for the well being of our soliders, and know that God is in control. My heart goes out to you Aaron, rest easy with it, and my prayers are with your grandson. And I'm so thankful to all the men and woman who serve this country, God Bless the USA.

Agape,

Abiyah

david_munson

07-09-2006, 04:29 PM

Arron,
you and your family are also in my prayers.

Thank you Smyrna for showing that prayer is more important than disputed issues.
Even if we disagree we really should hold each other up in prayer.
I believe that is God's heart.

}

franklin

07-09-2006, 04:33 PM

Mine is not a false belief. I believe the white man, the black man, and the yellow man all descended from the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. There were no other men or women created by God before or after other than Adam and Eve. All others are descended from Adam and Eve. Noah and his relatives were the only humans on the Ark. All other perished in the flood. The different races developed afterwards from the descendants of Noah and his family. I believe that God's "chosen people" are ALL those who believe in Christ. That is what I believe. That is what the Bible tells me. What other false beliefs am I supposed to have?

preachers_daughter

07-09-2006, 04:33 PM

Arron

I will remember you, your grandson, and all of your family in my prayers.

That was a beautiful prayer, smyrna.

watchman_2

07-09-2006, 05:01 PM

franklin [godchild-lite],

You just proved me correct. Your quote:
I believe the white man, the black man, and the yellow man all descended from the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. 

It is not possible for all the races of people to come from one race without a divine act of God. No such divine act is reported of in the scriptures.

Of course, common sense, without much Biblical knowledge, tells us that people already existed prior to Adam and Eve.

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Gee, it is pretty difficult for Cain to have a wife if people didn't already exist. Adam and Eve did not have daughters until after the birth of Seth.

In fact, the Bible is clear that mankind was created on the sixth day. See Gen. 1:26-27. Adam was not formed until Gen. 2:7, which is outlined after God rested.

Your belief has been repeatedly proven false here on Factnet.

david_munson

07-09-2006, 05:35 PM

Ge 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living - A man who does not understand the original cannot possibly comprehend the reason of what is said here. What has the word Eve to do with being the mother of all living? Our translators often follow the Septuagint; it is a pity they had not done so here, as the Septuagint translation is literal and correct: &#922;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#954;&#945;&#955;&#949;&#963;&#949;&#957 ; &#913;&#948;&#945;&#956; &#964;&#959; &#959;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#945; &#964;&#951;&#962; &#947;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#954;&#959;&#962 ; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#918;&#969;&#951;&#959;&#964;&#953; &#956;&#951;&#964;&#951;&#961; &#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#950;&#969;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957; "And Adam called his wife's name Life, because she was the mother of all the living." This is a proper and faithful representation of the Hebrew text, for the &#1495;&#1493;&#1492; Chavvah of the original, which we have corrupted into Eve, a word destitute of all meaning, answers exactly to the &#918;&#969;&#951; of the Septuagint, both signifying life; as does also the Hebrew &#1495;&#1497; chai to the Greek &#950;&#969;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957; , both of which signify the living.

It is probable that God designed by this name to teach our first parents these two important truths:

1. That though they had merited immediate death, yet they should be respited, and the accomplishment of the sentence be long delayed; they should be spared to propagate a numerous progeny on the earth.

2. That though much misery would be entailed on his posterity, and death should have a long and universal empire, yet One should in the fullness of time spring from the woman, who should destroy death, and bring life and immortality to light, 2Ti 1:10. Therefore Adam called his wife's name Life, because she was to be the mother of all human beings, and because she was to be the mother of Him who was to give life to a world dead in trespasses, and dead in sins, Eph 2:1, etc.
(Clark)
---
Ge 2:1
This chapter is an appendix to the history of the creation, explaining, and enlarging on that part of it, which relates immediately to man. We have in it,

I. The institution of the sabbath, which was made for man, to further his holiness and comfort, ver. 1-3.

II. A more particular account of man's creation, as the summary of the whole work, ver. 4-7.

III. A description of the garden of Eden, and the placing of man in it under the obligations of a law and covenant, ver. 8-17.

IV. The creation of the woman, her marriage to the man, and the institution of the ordinance of marriage, ver. 18-25.
(Wesley)

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franklin

07-09-2006, 05:50 PM

Cain married a relative of his descended from Adam and Eve. People back then lived a thousand years you know. My understanding is 1000 times more plausible than yours. If animals can be bred to look differently so can a human. You are just refusing to believe that you are related to a black or yellow human and that is racist.

abiyah

07-09-2006, 06:12 PM

franklin WROTE:
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" Mine is not a false belief. I believe the white man, the black man, and the yellow man all descended from the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. There were no other men or women created by God before or after other than Adam and Eve. "
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http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifHello There franklin;

And Peace be upon you; With regards to your above quote... I ask you..... how can this be ? According to our Father's Word He 'created' man on the SIXTH DAY, male and female... He had looked and saw that it was "very good" [ Genesis 1:31 ]. Now AFTER God rested on the SEVENTH DAY,[II Peter 3:8 " one day is WITH The Lord as a thousands years, and a thousand years as one day." ] He saw that He had NO MAN to till the ground [ Genesis 2:7-8 ], no farmer, we see the SIXTH DAY peoples were fishers, hunters, etc, for God gave them dominion over the fish, the fowl, the cattle [ Genesis 1:26-28 ]. However, it was not until AFTER God rested on the SEVENTH DAY, that God 'FORMED' this man, which is "THE MAN" Adam, which in the Hebrew is " eth-ha'adham", THE man Adam, and indeed it carries an article ' the ', a certain man, a specific man. We see that ' the man ' Adam, who was 'FORMED' after God had rested on the SEVENTH DAY, that he had no ' female ', for God said it is not good that ' THE MAN '= 'eth-ha'adham, that being THE man Adam, should be alone. And He took a rib [ curve=as the helix curve, the feminine DNA ], and made ' a woman ' [ Genesis 2:21-22 ]. And as Watchman has shown Biblically that Cain did take a wife from the SIXTH DAY peoples who dwelt in the land of Nod, which shows that indeed there were other peoples/mankind/humans on the earth before God 'FORMED' THE man Adam.

Abiyah

danispeachy

07-09-2006, 06:29 PM

Eve is the Mother of all living because it is her decendents that would eventually bare Jesus. Those who do not accept Jesus as the Lord, The Savior, God, and our Salvation, are Spiritually dead. As in not living. I of course would have absolutely no idea whether or not my lineage could be traced back to Eve or to a 6th day creation, but Eve is my Mother in the sense that her seed gave me Life. Life eternal in Heaven.

'Cause "I'm going to that spirit in the sky, that's where I'm gonna go when I die. When I die and they lay me to rest I'm gonna go to the place that's the best."

Thank You Jesus!

:D

david_munson

07-09-2006, 06:42 PM

Danis,
"Those who do not accept Jesus as the Lord, The Savior, God, and our Salvation, are Spiritually dead. As in not living. I of course would have absolutely no idea whether or not my lineage could be traced back to Eve or to a 6th day creation, but Eve is my Mother in the sense that her seed gave me Life. Life eternal in Heaven.

'Cause "I'm going to that spirit in the sky, that's where I'm gonna go when I die. When I die and they lay me to rest I'm gonna go to the place that's the best."

Thank You Jesus!"
---
Amen to that!
And again I say amen.
Also,I remember that song and like it too.
Dave

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preachers_daughter

07-09-2006, 07:31 PM

I say amen also, danis.

It is sad that so many people limit God, and what he can do. Why is it sooooooo impossible to believe that all people descended from Adam and Eve? Why is it sooooooo impossible to believe that the flood was not world wide? Why is it sooooooo impossible to believe that Noah took every kind of animal into the ark? The Bible said he had to take them into the ark, but he was never told he had to round 'em up. He just had to take them in. Why is it impossible to believe that God is not capable of doing that which seems impossible? Oh, angels and satan can have sex with people, and the result is "hybrids"[ a quote from the Shepherds Chapel] but, in the eyes of some, God can't do these things because it is scientifically and humanly impossible.

I do not understand why so many people limit God. It is very sad.

watchman_2

07-10-2006, 02:09 PM

franklin [godchild-lite]'

Your quote:
Cain married a relative of his descended from Adam and Eve.

Pure supposition that is not supported by the scriptures. Shame on you!

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Enjoy your plagues!

danispeachy

07-10-2006, 03:57 PM

preachers_daughter,

I feel the need to respond to your post.

"Why is it sooooooo impossible to believe that all people descended from Adam and Eve?"

Because the bible says God created man and women on the 6th day. Then it says God created Adam and from his rib created Eve. The 2 chapters give different accounts of creation. it's not a matter of limiting Gods capabilities but rather a matter of accepting what he told us. I don't deny that God has the capabilities of having all the races/ethnos of people come from 1 pair of humans. He's managed to do it (in my opinion) with animals (Adaption). Others believe that the ethnos came after the scattering in Gen 10. Eve is not the Mother of all humans, she is the Mother (Grandmother by a few generations) to Jesus. Jesus gives whosoever eternal life. Those who have Jesus, have life and are living. Therefore Eve is the Mother of all living. I suppose my question would be why is it so hard for people to understand that God had/has a plan and that he didn't begin things on a whim and doesn't do thing by the seat of his pants (so to speak)? I for 1 think that it is far less racist to believe that God created every race/ethnos/ type individually and said it was good.

" Why is it sooooooo impossible to believe that the flood was not world wide? "

I don't think it is. (further evidence we're not a cult) I've said before I believe it was world wide. Many think it was regional because of their interpretations of scripture or their attempt to compromise with science. It's not as if either theory can be proven true at this point in time. It is not a denial on either side that God is capable of anything. Just a difference in opinion. Some believe that Coke tastes better than Pepsi. I don't besmirch people for thinking it was a regional event and neither should you. Until we meet the Lord and ask him, we'll have to live life with varying opinions. Belief in a regional flood helps put a lot of things in perspective.

" Why is it sooooooo impossible to believe that Noah took every kind of animal into the ark?
The Bible said he had to take them into the ark, but he was never told he had to round 'em up. He just had to take them in. Why is it impossible to believe that God is not capable of doing that which seems impossible? "

Again, such a belief does not deny that God is capable of anything. God is indeed capable of doing that which seems impossible. I don't know of anyone who denys that. One can still beleive that God is capable of anything yet chooses to do things orderly. Whose to say it was even necessary to bring Polar Bears for example? What about adaption? Whose to say that God didn't just go "Poof" and bam all the animals were there walking up and into ark. The fact is nobody can know for certain. Untill we are able to ask the Lord directly, we must have faith. You have faith God did it 1 way, they have faith he did it another way. neither way takes away from the capabilities of God.

danispeachy

07-10-2006, 03:58 PM

continued...

" Oh, angels and satan can have sex with people, and the result is "hybrids"[ a quote from the Shepherds Chapel] but, in the eyes of some, God can't do these things because it is scientifically and humanly impossible. "

As shown in my above statements, no one is denying what God is capable of. It is you and others who keep saying that since we believe A then we must also beleive B and that is just not the case. The bible has overwhelming evidence that Satan and Angels are capable of copulation with humans. History shows that people have held this belief. There are many different opinions even within the Serpent Seed doctrine as to what all exactly occured. Some logical, some far fetched. To think for 1 moment that God doesn't have to allow each and every thing to occur is an attempt to limit Gods capabilities. God allowed Satan to beguile Eve, If it wasn't meant to be, it wouldn't have happened. He had no trouble destroying the Nephilim in the flood. He could have destroyed Satan and the other Fallen Angels when they rebelled but he didn't. He could have destroyed Adam and Eve when they fell, but he didn't. He could have come down from Heaven walked up to Satan and zapped him with his finger tip, but he didn't. He could have gotten in between Satan and Eve and scolded Satan and showed Eve what a trouble maker Satan was, but he didn't. That is just further evidence that God is indeed a loving, patent God, who that while we know is capable of destoying mankind, chooses not to. Why? God doesn't wish to destroy his creation, his children. God has a plan, God wants our love, but he's not going to force us to love and obey him. Otherwise free will would not be needed.

I would also like to say that the arrogance displayed by the people at this site doesn't fair well for their seed planting. I know I sure don't listen to to people who yell at me or call me names. There is divisions among all religions. On 1 hand you have Muslims that beleive blowing themselves up at a market is what God wants and others who believe that God certainly doesn't want that. Jews are divided amongst themselves with their beliefs as well. 1 example, some don't believe that you should give non Jews charity, others think you must. Some Christians beleive they will be raptured away. Others don't. Now I think it's pretty apparent that divisions will occur no matter what.

In writing this post I had an epiphany. This website and most of it's visitors are not interested in a scriptual discussion, they are interested in scriptual debate. Everybody is getting off on the garbage that goes on here and it is very sad indeed. On Saturday I had the opportunity to travel an hour and a half to meet 6 Shepherds Chapel students who fellowship in my state. I spent the afternoon with them and I have to say it was ever so refreshing to sit down and discuss issues instead of arguing them. There were differences of opinion within the group but everybody was mature and respectful about it. It was absolutely great! I was worried myself at 1st, worried that maybe they would be stuffy holier than thou types that will gear up to judge me. To be honest it even crossed my mind, what if they are racist... Instead I met a group of kind, God fearing, bible loving, people loving, animal loving folks. Who desired to meet others to engage in spiritual and biblical discussions instead of arguments defending their positions.

abiyah

07-10-2006, 05:50 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Afternoon Danispeachy !

May the Peace that is in Christ our Lord continue to be upon your heart; Absolutely beautiful post you have written above here. I can see that it all came straight from the heart, and indeed I'm moved, and impressed by the wisdom you have shown above here, and the advice which was put forth to all, including myself. And not only that, your post was kind-hearted, gentle, and I found it to be heart warming. I truly enjoyed it, thank you. God Bless your heart my friend.

Agape,

Abiyah

Edited by Me to add, and for a spelling error. " )


(Message edited by abiyah on July 10, 2006)

terluvire

07-10-2006, 06:17 PM

Good day Abiyah and Dani,http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I agree with Abiyah. Very good post Dani. You always speak from the heart. God bless you Dani.

danispeachy

07-10-2006, 08:12 PM

Well thank you my lovely friends Abi & Terri. I pray you ladies are well. I know I sure am blessed. I can't explain well, just how wonderful I have been feeling since meeting those good SC students on saturday. It was certainly refreshing to actually sit down face to face and discuss the bible without having to explain everything or argue anything. I originally came online to certain sites looking for fellowship. I must admit over the past several months I have been in a slump so to speak, unhappy with myself and with life etc, but I must admit lately, I feel revived and hopeful. I was even passed on for a promotion at work but hold no sour feelings for it at all. I am actually releaved. I know the Lord has other plans for me and I feel like they are in motion so I'm ever so excited. I have also been in contact with a group of SC students closer to home... I hope to meet them someday soon as well and hope to have as good an expierence as I had on Saturday. Wouldn't it be wonderful to get both groups together for fellowship. I am indeed hopeful. I would love to meet you ladies as well, sadly distance keeps us apart. I have spoken to my family and we decided to make a conscience effort to save up so that we can attend Next years passover. Perhaps you ladies would be able to make it next year as well and we will finally be able to meet.

May the Lord continue to bless you and your families! You ladies are always in my prayers.

:D

godchild

07-10-2006, 10:31 PM

Since scer's thump on the rapture issue, stating the scriptures tell us we will not be raptured, show where it says we will not be raptured. If the word is not in the Bible, as you stress, how can you say it is speaking against something that is not even there?

scer's have also stated the 'clouds' mean His angels. strong's, which you seem to respect, defines Rev. 1:7, the definition of clouds is: properly cloudiness, that is (concretely) a cloud:-cloudy.

In fact, if you look for the definition's of cloud, or clouds in the strong's, it never says this is speaking of His angels, but clouds, period. Look it up. See Daniel 7:3 and Matt. 24:30 where it speaks of Jesus coming in the clouds. None of these definitions mean 'His angels'.

arron

07-10-2006, 10:33 PM

praise THE LORD, people. i am rejoiceing today. i am born again and feel good in my soul. true i feel kind of down in spirit ( my fleshly human spirit ) because my grandson will soon be going to irag. i do thank GOD for the prayers of all who have prayed for him. i just dont feel like writting anymore much. it is so controveral and lal some can do is argue about one thing regardless of what another says, or talks about a different subject.

angie0401

07-11-2006, 12:50 AM

arron,
I will pray for your grandson. We have friends in Iraq and pray for them weekly at church. I will especially think of your grandson when we pray for the military.
I do think you are a kind soul who does love the Lord. I commend you for reaching out to all here and attempting to make peace, regardless of differences. It takes a big man to venture out to do that and you have my respect.

I'm going to pray for you right now.

Heavenly Father, I lift up arron's grandson to You for You to wrap in Your strong arms - protect him and keep him free from harm. I ask that You give arron peace beyond understanding and that You touch him. Give him Your strength and comfort. I pray that You bless him and his family. I thank You that He loves You with all of His heart and soul - as we can see from his posts. I also pray that the peace that arron and others have attempted to bring to these threads will be realized and that we all learn to live together in Your presence and love.

I ask this in the precious and holy name of Your son, our Lord and Savior, Immanuel, Yahshua Messiah. Amen