The 3 Heavens

[ezekiel_37]

What does the three heavens (that Paul refers to) mean ....to those that do not follow the SC teachings.


asked in Honesty


in His service

[ezekiel_37]

no takers?

[abiyah]

<font color="119911"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"></font>

Ezekiel WROTE:
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QUOTE: " What does the three heavens (that Paul refers to) mean ....to those that do not follow the SC teachings. " END QUOTE
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http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Hi Ezekiel !

I will try, though I may be in error. My understanding to your above stated question is that The Heavens would align with the three earth ages; In that Heaven is wherever God is. However, I think someone other than myself could answer this question far better than myself. God Bless.


Abiyah</font>

[arron]

i beleive that the fist heaven consists of the air above us that we breathe, the second heaven is the space above that and the third HEAVEN is where GOD DWELLS. that is where paul was caught up to the one where GOD dwells.

[smyrna]

So I guess Arron, based on his explanation of his belief, must also beleive that when we die, our spirits just go on a space trip, and there is no such thing as a different dimension. But if that is the case, how do our spirits fly through air, space, and then heaven, without anyone seeing them?

After all, if we stay in the physical state, as Arron apparently believes, we have to be able to fly like a bird, then a spacecraft, and then wait at Heaven's Gate until St. Peter or Michael lets us in. Wait, maybe that's it!

Maybe Arron believes like the Heaven's Gate cult that killed themselves so they can ride on a comet to heaven!

[llm]

Acts 1:9,10,11 says Jesus flew up into heaven like a bird and dissappeared from their sight, and that he would come back that way.

[llm]

http://fixedearth.com/retearth.htm

MH has some interesting things to say on this subject, and he's probably right.

[smyrna]

Ah, one of the "fab five" chimes in with another outrageously silly statement.

Now Jesus had wings, according to llm. No, he was TAKEN UP, that is not the act of flying by any means,and then He was received by a cloud, as recorded in Acts 1:9, and did not "dissappear", like in a magic act.

But hey, what can we expect from someone who apparently also thinks polar bears and penguins were on Noah's Ark?

[llm]

I didn't say Jesus had wings. Yes he disappeared from their sight. However it happened, he went UP into heaven and was gone, leaving no footprints. Do you think he was TAKEN UP by a spaceship? Walking on water, walking through walls, changing water into wine, raising the dead, etc...all sounds pretty magical to me.

[llm]

MAGIC From Roger Hathaway on Anglo Literature

Because the literature of our ancestors frequently mentions magic, I want to address the subject in order to better appreciate the value of our heritage. Some people reject our heritage for the single reason that it contains magic, as though all magic is of the devil. But, that is really an ignorant oversimplification. Let’s take a more comprehensive look at this subject.

There are two aspects to the subject of magic. First is the commonly accepted view that all magic is devilish, occult, and unChristian. Certainly, much magic is exactly that, especially witchcraft, Satanism, Jewish Kabbalah, and sacred-name worship. But, second is the fact that our true Old Testament religion, along with Jesus’ demonstration, is replete with magic. Moses performed several kinds of magic before the Pharoa, and later in the wilderness, such as striking a rock with his staff and causing a flow of water. Prophets frequently performed magic by calling upon God. In the New Testament, Jesus suggested that we, His sheep, will be able to move a mountain by telling it to move. He demonstrated disappearing from one spot and appearing at another, and passing through a door without opening it first. Are not His miracles acts of magic? The truth is that God’s Elect, who possess His indwelling Spirit, create our perceptible reality by believing it into being. We might consider our dimension of reality a product of magic powers which we exercise without yet understanding. I discuss this at length in other articles. The body of Christ is the Creator of this reality, therefore we, as members of that body, participate in creating what we see before us simply by believing it so. After we transition into the kingdom of Heaven, then our latent powers will be more fully understood and we will intentionally create a civilization that is more spiritual than material. We will exercise our lives by performing continuous magic.

[llm]

So, magic is a part of our soul-nature. We are attracted to it because we feel some kind of identification with it. Magic is part of the true nature of God’s children. But, for our opponent race of Satan’s children, magic is not natural and must be performed through chants, spells, deceptions, rituals, mantras, calling earth forces, emotions, and other defined techniques. Satan often attempts to duplicate God’s design in reflection during his kingdom of World. Satanic magic is very different from Godly magic in that it uses earth-energies instead of Godly Spiritual powers.

What we have in our old literature, fables, fairy-tales, children’s stories, and sagas like these Anglo-Saxon treasures, are stories that contain magic, usually in some kind of battle between evil and good, such as witches against the Heroes. It is like watching a play wherein Satan's players work all kinds of devious methods to destroy God's players, who are limited to physical strength and swords. Often our heroes get killed, but they are still venerated as heroes because of their noble actions in defense of Good. What's more, God's heroes look forward to an afterlife in Valhalla just as Christians look to heaven, while the wicked players don't get such a reward. Tennyson's Ulysses (Homer's Odysseus), who, in his old age yearns to return to the adventures which made life worth living, says, "It may be that the gulfs will wash us down; It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles, And see the great Achilles, whom we knew. Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho 'We are not now that strength which in old days Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will, To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." It is a natural confidence of our souls that we look to Heaven as Happy Isles where we will enjoy the rewards of those who gave their lives for the sake of noble values. These Viking heroes demonstrate the same characteristics as did Homer's heroes.

Roger Hathaway, June 2006

[smyrna]

Well, as you can see above, we have been provided with more evidence that llm has certainly earned his spot as one of the "fab five."

Copy and past stuff about 'hocus pocus' and myths. That is what he apparently considers a rebuttal. See folks, this is what we deal with when we show that the "fab five" posts nothing but nonsense, smokescreen digressions, and other garbage.

[llm]

It's just that your statement is so rediculous.
Was Jesus TAKEN UP by a big gust of wind? A spaceship? Angels with wings?

If you read the link I provided above, http://fixedearth.com/retearth.htm
you may figure out the truth. I'm just trying to help so don't shoot the messanger.

[smyrna]

Folks, I strongly suggest that you go to the link llm provided. But not for the same reasons that llm does.

Go to the home page after you read the trash that talks about Jesus never again coming back to earth.

llm wants us to believe a website that claims that the earth does not rotate, nor does it orbit the sun.

This is simply amazing, and so hilarius to me that I can't even laugh, because if I start laughing, I won't be able to stop for hours.

This is so great, and he calls this truth, and he says my post above is ridiculous.

All I can say is that at least they (the website publishers) also claim evolution is a lie. But that should be easy for them, since their knowledge has not evolved since the middle ages.

Gotta go,I can't hold back the laughter anymore !

[llm]

I think you spent too much time on that boat! But just keep reading and maybe you'll begin to see the light.

[smyrna]

What more do we need to see about this member of the "fab five"?
Jesus isn't coming back to earth, the earth doesn't spin on its axis, nor does it orbit the sun, according to some whacko website, and this llm guy thinks I'm crazy?

Just when I think I have enough rants and raves from thsi group, someone throws another gem my way. I hope Factnet stays online for years to come, because people really need to see the source of all the freaky posts from here that I'm going to put on my website at www.scripturetruth.homestead.com (http://www.scripturetruth.homestead.com)

If llm keeps this up, he'll take over Godchild's place as the Grand Pooba of the "fab five."

[llm]

Well you can believe the psuedo-science of Kaballah over the truth of Bible...all I can say is have a nice trip.


2 Esdras Chap. IV -Verse 34

...great is the earth,
high is the heaven,
swift is the sun in his course,
for he compasseth [circles]
the heavens round about
and fetcheth [returns with]
his course again
to his own place in one day.

) "SUN, stand THOU still.... And THE SUN stood still." (Joshua 10:12,13)
b) "The world also is STABLISHED [i.e.,"fixed" #3529 Strong's Con.] that
IT CANNOT BE MOVED." (Psalm 93:1)
c) "The sun AND the moon stood still in their habitation." (Habakkuk 3:11)
d) "He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his GOING DOWN." (Psalm 104:19)
e) "...the world also shall be stable [fixed], that it be NOT moved." (I Chron. 16:30)
f) "He...hangeth the earth upon nothing." (Job 26:7)
g) "The sun ALSO ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hastens to
his place where he arose." (Eccl.1:5)
h) "...so the sun RETURNED ten degrees...." (Isaiah 38:8)
i) God..."commandeth the sun, and it riseth not." (Job 9:7)
j) "...the sun shall be darkened in his going forth." (Isaiah 13:10)
k) "The heavens declare the glory of God.... In them hath He set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his CIRCUIT [orbit] unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof." (Psalm 19:1,4-6)
Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."
15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."
19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."
28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."
32:31..... "...the sun rose...."
Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."
22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."
22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."
Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down....
Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."
16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."
23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."
24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."
24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."
Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."
8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."
10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."
10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."
10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."

[llm]

12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."
8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."
9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."
14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."
19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."
II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."
3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."
23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."
I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."
I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."
II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."
Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."
Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."
Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."
19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."
19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."
50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."
104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."
104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."
113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down
and hasteth to the place where he arose...."
Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."
38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."
38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."
41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."
59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."
Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."
Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."
Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."
Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."
Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."
Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."
Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."
Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."
13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."
Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."
4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."
16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."
Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."
Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."
James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees
...ten degrees backward. So THE SUN RETURNED ten degrees,
by which degrees it was gone down...."
(Isaiah 38:8)

[smyrna]

More ridiculousness from the new leader of the "fab five."

All his Bible quotes are from the perspective of man. What man sees and perceives. It is not an astronomical report on the movements of planetary bodies.

[ezekiel_37]

That was my thought aswell, man's prospective....

Explaining to man in a way that he could understand.....

but to each their own.

in His service
c

[smyrna]

Another "fab five" tactic: Make a ridculous claim, and then proceed to lambast anyone and everything in order to make their claims appear to have legitimacy.

It's very much like what we saw in the OJ Simpson murder trial: Provide blood evidence, and the "Dream Team" (defense attorneys)try to impeach the crime lab. Introduce DNA evidence, and the Dream Team claims it was contaminated. Always an excuse, and the harder the evidence works in favor of the prosecution, the more outlandish are the theories of the defense team.

But when you have a jury that is mostly black, and in a social environment that pits blacks against the police, and a murderer of two people walks the streets today, playing golf, not a care in the world.

In comparison, we have not the Dream Team, but the "Fab Five". For them to be consistently correct, (at least in their own minds) everyone else must be lying. When you give them hard evidence, they offer whacko websites as source material.

Those who support their protests against the Shepherd's Chapel are clearly not Bible scholars.

Now in order to try and prevent the inevitable and incessant ranting of the Fab Five, who certainly will continue accuse Pastor Murray of teaching things they consider whacky and far out, I can only say that from the SC perspective, those of us students that have studied with Pastor Murray for a long time can provide quite valid arguments, documentation not based on silly websites, but historical and scientific, data, relying on the fields of archaeology, philology, linguistics, astonronomy, etc. But primarily always the Word of God, which must be our cornerstone, and our solid Rock of Truth.

But as I have stated here many times, the main reason any of us SC students should be here is not to defend our beliefs, but to show how Chapel critics consistently use tactics such as lying, intentionally misinterpreting SC student's post to fit their own prejaudices, digressing from the topic at hand, and using other sneaky, insidious behaviors in order to try and discredit the SC and Pastor Murray.

My question has always been: why do they need to act that way, if they are so correct, then would not the truth suffice?

[smyrna]

Now before I post this link, I must issue a caveat: The man who publishes it opposes creationsim in favor of evolutionary theory. Chapel students, like most Christians, do not believe in evolution, and do not believe it is provable, and so hopefully none of the "fab five" or anyone else will accuse me of beleiving in evolution. I only iwsh to focus on the opposing view to llm's ridiculous posts regarding geocentrism, i.e the silly belief that the earth does not rotate on its axis, does not orbit the sun, and that stars aren't as far away as scientists claim they are. Here is the link:

http://www.evolutionpages.com/pink_unicorn.htm

See, llm does not ever offer a balanced view. Nor does any of the other Fab Five. They just want you to see one side of an argument- theirs.

I have always either offered an opposing view to my own, or those of the Chapel's,at least by stating that I am aware of other differing opinions, or data, etc.

One example is to offer information pro and con regarding the issue of whether Noah's Flood was a worldwide event or only a localized event. I know there are good arguments on both sides, but I sway towards the localized event.

On a lighter note: I offer the link above not because I feel any necessity to proove llm wrong.

After all, that website he suggested is so ridiculous it stands well enough on its own as a glaring example of the fact that perhaps we need to reopen some of the mental hospitals that have been closed by liberal elitists.

No, I offer the link so that I can see how llm reacts, because I am sure that however he reacts to it, he will offer once again a very entertaining and humorus comment,and affirm his place as the new leader of the "Fab Five"!

[llm]

smyrna you really need to educate yourself beyond the one man show that you follow.
maybe this will help. http://www.kronia.com/electric.html

[llm]

"The sun AND the moon stood still in their habitation." (Habakkuk 3:11)

You understand the moon is moving right? This verse is saying that the moon stood still AND the sun did as well.

[llm]

maybe when you jump back on that boat you can spend some time figuring these things out. even though they have not gone all the way yet to a fixed earth moving sun conclusion, the electric universe is a perfect geocentric model. this guy sees that einstein was WRONG, gee, einstein, galleleo, and copurnicus, never even had stationary satellites.

http://www.holoscience.com/

"If I have had an underlying purpose in my life it has been to watch for intellectual explorers who have been marginalised by their peers. They are often those who have the audacity to use their imagination, uncommon-sense and courage to challenge the paradigm paralysis institutionalised in western science.

It is a truism that breakthroughs often lie unrecognised for decades. "I'll see it when I believe it" could be the catch-cry for much of science. After the slow path to acceptance of each great new idea, it always seems so obvious in retrospect. We teach children in grade school ideas that defeated the greatest intellects for centuries. That being so, we must not let the reputation of even an Einstein stand in our way when seeking better paradigms. We must simply allow for the possibility that he was wrong, recognising that science is a highly conservative captive of fashion.

The Electric Universe opens up science again to the individual. Science will blossom in the new millennium as a cultural activity more integrated with history, the arts and the human condition."

[smyrna]

llm is placing himself in a class by himself. Even the rest of the "fab five" aren't as whacked out as this guy, (with the exception of Godchild).

Anyway, for those following,llm gave us a link to a site that claims the earth doesn't spin on its axis, and doesn't orbit the sun.

Now he gives us a new site, says I should educate myself, and do you know what this site says? Here is an excerpt:

"Our mission:

* Illuminate the great mysteries of the ancient world, including the roots of global myths and symbols.
* Consider the electrical forces, both subtle and violent, that animate and control the physical world.
* Provide the first glimpses of an alien sky, when the Earth MOVED (my emphasis) in a close assembly of planets dominated by the gas giant Saturn.
* Expand our liaison with intellectual pioneers around the world.


This doesn't even know if he is coming or going, and now he refers us to sites that oppose each other, and claims both are true.

I thought yesterday was the peak of insanity here on Facnet, but lm has proved me wrong on that one. And I never felt so good to be wrong!


Now lest anyone be confused,(like llm) the moon orbits the earth, the moon and earth orbit the sun, and the Habbakuk reference to them being made still is a reference to the miracle in Joshua 10:12-13.

It would be more funny if guys like llm would just give up their claim to be Christians, so they won't run the risk of embarrassing the rest of Christianity with all their ridiculous conspiracy theories, and their attempts to challenge hard scientific data in the name of religion with references to whacky websites, in this case even referring to sites that don't even agree on the same point llm is trying to make!

The Kronia site is inflenced by the tehroies of Emmanuel Velikovsky (those who don't know who he was just do a net search). Ane he taught the plnets not only orbited the sun, but that at least one, Venus, was once a comet that got caught by cosmic forces and was led into an orbit around the sun.

llm's geocentric website, teaches that the earth doesn't move at all. This guy really ought to keep away from "heaping unto himself teachers, having itching ears," and quit chasing fables, as instructed by Paul to Timothy in I and II Timothy.

llm thinks he is "aligning himself with intellectual pioneers."

He's aligning himself alright, but with a bunch of clowns running around duping people into buying their books and videos.

[llm]

"even though they have not gone all the way yet to a fixed earth moving sun conclusion, the electric universe is a perfect geocentric model."

---I qualified what I said. Just like you did...


"The man who publishes it opposes creationsim in favor of evolutionary theory. Chapel students, like most Christians, do not believe in evolution, "

"He's aligning himself alright, but with a bunch of clowns running around duping people into buying their books and videos."

The same could be said for the followers of Arnold Murray and his one man show.

[llm]

the chapel should book this guy!
http://mcrorie.net/

[smyrna]

Whether you believe the Sun,moves or not, there is nothing new under it. (cf. Ecc. 1:9)
Years ago, an ad in a magazine caught my eye: "New Testment written a Roman family,invented Jesus. We offer anyone $1416 to anyone who can prove us wrong"
Curious, I wrote to them. They were called the Abelard Reuchlin Foundation. They are still around. (http://reuchlina.tripod.com/) I think. You will see that the site is full of outdated or dead links. I guess their theory isn't really catching on too well, kind of like geocentrism.

Anyway, I recieved a letter from someone at this foundation. They wanted to charge me $5 for sending their booklet, but I told them their theory was nonsense, gave the reasons why I thought so, and they were so desperate to get someone to listen to them, they sent me one for free!

I wrote back, told them I read the booklet, and gave more reasons why I thought they were way out there with their theory.
I asked them if they ever contacted anyone from the Jesus Seminar, which was going on at the time, a group of some of the world's foremost Biblical scholars. I asked them if they ever ran their theory by the Biblical Archaeology Society. Their publications, Bible Review, and Biblical Archeology Review sometimes dabble in the absurd,presumably for entertainment. But Abelhard said no, they didn't think they would be received well by these folks, because they offer a "new, higher form of scholarship" and the mainstream folks wouldn't understand.

Well, in his letter, the rep from Abelard gave me an example of their scholarship, and quoted the verse from Rev. 7:1, referring to the "four corners of the earth" he said something to the effect that "Well, we know that can't be true, the earth is round, not sqaure, it has no corners."

So much for his higher form of scholarship.I didn't win their $1416. I don't even know how they came up with that figure. But I had an answer to it.
Proverbs 14:16 "A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident."

Hey, maybe llm will go to the Ablerd Reuchlin site, buy into thier theory,become a non-believer,and leave this forum to join the atheists. We can only hope.

[smyrna]

Since it's so much fun pounding on llm, I'm going to continue. He now calls Murray a "one man show".
Well, that is hardly the case. His sons both teach there, Dennis is on screen but David also records or teaches from time to time. He is a bit shy and doesn't feel comfortable around a large crowd.
There is a staff of people, many of them volunteers but also paid staff, that answer phones and work in the studio and warehouse.
As far as the teachings go, since Pastor Murray has gone through every book of the Bible, chapter by chapter,line by line, and verse by verse, clearly 99 percent of what he teaches is straight out of the Word of God. Thus the Word of God is the show, not Arnold or Dennis Murray.

By the way, llm can't find any teacher that believes the stuff he believes that goes chapter by chapter, line by line, book by book. In fact, we don't even know if he has a teacher or spiritual advisor. And don't anyone tell me they don't need one, because I'll shut them up quick, using the Word of God to correct them.

llm alludes to Murray being a one man show. Not so. All of what his detractors have claimed are inventions by Murray are flat out wrong. I've proved that in this forum many times.In fact, once most of these accusations are proven false, the detractors make up their own stuff, and say Murray teaches it! That's how bad it has gotten here at times.

[llm]

http://www.larrysiegel.com/omb.htm

How quickly the body of Christ has fallen away from the truth. The Apostle Paul was in tears over it...satan has blinded the whole world!

From using the LXX (the bible Jesus and his disciples used) instead of the MT compiles 1000 years after Christ by Cains offspring). You say you teach chapter by chapter, verse by verse, but what good is that if your using a corrupted text. I'm more interest in teaching the word AS IT IS WRITTEN, just like Jesus said. The fixed sun theory didn't materalize until the 1500's. That sounds like Johnny come lately to me. Sounds like your the one who has rejected the Word of God.

"The sun AND the moon stood still in their habitation." (Habakkuk 3:11)

You understand the moon is moving right? This verse is saying that the moon stood still AND the sun did as well.

[watchman_2]

llm,

The earth is flat as well. See Rev. 7:1.

[smyrna]

Watchman, very funny!

As for llm, this guy is really way out there. He continually raises the issue of the Septuagint verses the MT.
The Massorah was developed because scribes during the time of Ezra-Nehemiah were caught trying to adulterate the text.

llm claims that the Massorah itself was a way to adulterate and corrupt the text. "...instead of the MT compiles 1000 years after Christ by Cains offspring)."

Then he makes the claim that Jesus and the disciples used the Greek Bible (LXX)
It is highly unlikely that the disciples were even Greek literate. As for Jesus, I'm sure He could read Hebrew and Greek, but since He IS the Word, He didn't need any printed material.

By the way, forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't llm one of those people who don't believe there are Kenites, i.e. sons of Cain? Isn't he one of those people who have called the serpent's seed doctrine a lie? Where does he get off referring to anyone as sons of Cain?

Finally, though Pastor Murray teaches from a KJV, he always references the manscripts whnever there is a question concering translation. So to argue that he is using a corrupted version is really a moot point, since he has always pointed out errors in the KJV, and explains why they occurred, and corrects them by pointing out what is known from the manuscripts.

(For more information on the Massorah, read appendixes 30-34 of the Companion Bible:

http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/list.html

I think either llm intentionally left those facts out, or doesn't even know that Murray does that.
No matter, he is wrong once again.

[llm]

Watchman, that scripture is talking about the 4 winds from the North South East and West, not the make up of the earth.

Since this fixed sun moving earth theory didn't materialize until the 1500's from a handful if Cain and Esau's offspring, it stands to reason that Jesus and the disciples believed in a fixed earth moving sun as the bible describes. Jesus it seems saw no need to challenge the idea when he walked the earth.

"It is highly unlikely that the disciples were even Greek literate"

If they wrote the NT in Greek they probably knew how to speak it. If it quacks like a duck it's probably a duck. You really show your ignorance here.

[smyrna]

Watchman,
I think it's really hilarious the way llm writes to you as if he is telling you something you don't already know. Another sneaky, but a failed tactic designed to puff himself up.

He does the same to me:

Smyrna: "It is highly unlikely that the disciples were even Greek literate"

llm:"If they wrote the NT in Greek they probably knew how to speak it. If it quacks like a duck it's probably a duck. You really show your ignorance here."

Writing in another language is far different than speaking it.

The Apostles were tradesman: fishermen, etc. There were no formal schools, save the Temple. Even writing materials were scarce.

There is no solid evidence that the Apostles themselves wrote the Gospel accounts.
Ever hear of the Q theory? It would not exist if theologians were satisfied with the 'Apostles wrote their own books' position.

I think that the Apostles didn't even have time to sit and write what amounts to quite a bit of material, since they travelled from place to place so much. It is more likely that they may have employed scribes in their later years, perhaps even converts from the Temple scribe corps., especially since they were probably out of work for a while after 70 A.D., if you get my drift.

In closing, I hope everybody notices another tactic llm uses: creating digressions, taking one little sentence out of a post and comptletely disregarding the rest of the material that shows how weak his positions are.

Anyone with a backround in Bible history knows how ridiculous his LXX vs MT argument is, at least how he frames it to make Pastor Murray look like he is using an inferior version of the Bible.
Which reminds me: llm doesn't ever tell us what version he uses. I'm sure he doesn't know how to read ancient Greek. He can barely handle english:

"galleleo, and copurnicus"? Those aren't typos, that's llm trying to spell. Try Galileo and Coperinicus.

[watchman_2]

smyrna,

One only has to take a quick look at the websites that llm promotes to realize that llm is not a serious student of the Word.

His fixed earth position was debated awhile back and he lost badly. He now acts like it never took place and it is a new topic.

[smyrna]

Watchman,

What you are really saying here then is that llm stands for: Loose-lipped moron.
I can accept that!

[llm]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/40403/one_man_show

I never lost any debate. I tell the truth. You are the ones who reject what the word of God says for a lie that was concocted by some "kenites" in the 1500's, and that has never been scientifically proven.

"The sun AND the moon stood still in their habitation." (Habakkuk 3:11)

You understand the moon is moving right? This verse is saying that the moon stood still AND the sun did as well. If the moon was moving then the sun must have been moving too for them both to stop.


Also-Try typing in "Jesus spoke Greek" into your search engine and you will find all kinds of information about this subject.

[smyrna]

Supreme Grand Pooba of the Fab Five wrote:

"I never lost any debate. I tell the truth."

There are only three reasons how someone can claim to have never lost a debate.

1. Claimant never engaged in a debate.
2. Claimant is suffering from delusion.
3. Claimant is being their own judge, as to whether they won a debate or not. (fits in with delusion)

In llm's case, all three can be true, which is the only truth one can find in just another of the enumerable examples of his outrageous, silly statements.

How can he claim to even have been in a debate when he cannot get through one without nullifying his own statements by refusing to acknowledge his opponent's rebuttals or statements to the contrary?

As I've said before, will not openly engage in a debate with this guy. I will only offer, for the sake of the other readers, an opposing view or explanation.

Just look at his incessant mention of Habakkuk 3:11.

It's just another verse written about man's perception of the moon and the sun.

It's no wonder that he can't comprehend the different meanings a verse may have. He says the sun and moon stood still. If the sun was already standing still, as well as the moon, it does not automatically mean that both bodies were moving. It merely states that at the moment referenced in history, they both were still.

This clown refuses to acknowledge that two people, myself and Ezekiel, already explained that the Bible verses he cut and pasted from that stupid fixed earth site all refer to how man perceives the sun, not whether the sun actually moves or not.

And when you refuse to acknowledge your opponents' statements, then you are not debating, you are just making a speech.

So llm can claim he has never lost a debate, because so far he has not ever been in one.


One more point I want to make about this man's
attempts at being logical. Based on his brand of logic, then the earth must always be shaking, based upon Hebrews 12:26, which states that God shook the earth with his voice.
Since it doesn't say that the earth stopped shaking then it must still be shaking, according to llm's so-called reasoning.

The Habakkuk verse is just a reference to Joshua 10:12-13 which in turn actually was referencing the Book of Jasher.

It was a one time miracle, and not a claim by God or anyone else that the Sun always moved around the earth.

I want to go back and also remind the readers that llm suggested we read two websites: one that claims the sun moves around the earth (geocentrism) and another than claims the earth moves around the sun (heliocentrism).
He the claimed he "qualified" the one that opposed geocentrism because he made mention that
the publishers were "they have not gone all the way yet to a fixed earth moving sun conclusion"

So what we have is llm trying to suuirm out of a situation he put himself in, a contradiction, putting his foot in his mouth, and then claiming to "qualify" contradicting himslef by claiming that one side will eventually see the light and change their minds!

He sure goes through a lot of trouble (trouble he created on his own) in order to be able to claim he never lost a debate!

[llm]

There in no indication in the bible that the earth is moving or that sun is fixed. simple as that.

All you have is a fabrication from the imaginations of a few godless men in the 1500's that we are flinging through space way beyond rifle bullet speed. Talk about crazy.

[llm]

First, you think of the alleged rotational speed--about 1040 MPH at the equator. That’s pretty fast. Now look up.... See those big clouds barely moving...and frequently in the opposite direction of the way the Earth is allegedly moving at this supersonic speed? See the birds flying this way and that? Board a jet from NY to LA, then fly back. What, no difference? Go straight up a few hundred feet in a helicopter in the Eastern USA and hover there for about four hours. When you come down you will be in California, right? No? Odd, isn’t it? Then consider the lame explanation: We are in an atmospheric "envelope" that rotates in perfect synchronization with the earth, you see.... Yeah, but that means the air speed has to adjust perfectly to the ground speed every inch you go from the equator’s 1000 MPH+ to zero MPH at the poles. Think it through....


Secondly, we have to ratchet up the Earth’s speed to c. 67,000 MPH to get it around the sun in its alleged annual orbit. Now we’re really going fast...over thirty times rifle bullet speed! The clouds, birds, and jet flights take no notice....


But 67,000 MPH is just idling speed compared to the next requirement, i.e., the Earth’s alleged 200,000,000 year journey around the Milky Way. The third speed that the earth must be moving in the Copernican Model which the whole world has been told is scientific fact is One Half Million (500,000) MPH, 250 times rifle bullet speed. Are the clouds, the birds, the jets still there? Yeah, everything seems OK... What is that hurricane doing going the wrong way?


Well, enough of this slow-motion stuff; let’s put the metal on the pedal and see what this old Earth can really do! The Big Bang Expanding Universe Model requires that the Earth--along with everything else (including you)--be moving away from an alleged explosion site some 15 billion years ago at a relativistic speed of some six hundred and fifty million (650,000,000) MPH. (You work out the kilometers in all this.) DID YOU GET THAT?? THAT’S THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND TIMES RIFLE BULLET SPEED!! Hey, kid; pull that kite in....


Do you believe it?? You don’t have to. The stationary Earth taught in the Bible is confirmed by everything that is actually observed...by every experiment performed...by all eclipse and navigation and satellite realities....

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">llm, Nasa is looking for Astro Physicists.</font>

[smyrna]

Very funny terluvire!

But his copy and paste job is just a smokescreen to keep from having to face my last post about his other tactics.

[llm]

The fancy occult math they use that's designed to make it look like the earth is moving doesn't interest me, nor do I want a job with satan's high priests of origins.
(more cut and paste)
http://fixedearth.com/kabbalist%20Superstrings.htm

[smyrna]

Does anyone want to get back on topic? Like the three world ages?
llm thinks he can take over this board with his rants and raves about the solar system.
The original question was what others besides the SC think about what Paul mean about being taken to the third heaven.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Smyrna,

LOL thanks, I thought is was funny also..lol But you are right, these tactics take the discussion off course. This tends to happen on all these threads. Look at the Noah thread, it has happened there also. The main thought of this thread is the 3 heavens and the detractors take on it. I think from all the detractors, only arron gave his take on the 3 heavens. I wonder why the others won't?</font>

[smyrna]

Answer: They can't, of course. They probably were not even aware that Paul was taken to the third heaven, and if they have come across the account in II Corinthians 12, they are mystified.
They probably scratched their heads, saying "Wow, I thought there was only one heaven."

[ezekiel_37]

naw....some now 'splain it away saying that the first heaven is earth, the second is the atmosphere and the third is where God is.

[ezekiel_37]

I would like to say something to llm

I once saw a show on tv a long time ago, that claimed gravity was a PUSH and not a PULL.

There was a scientist (rather distinguished as I recall) who had magnets set up around a mock of the earth and moon. With this example, he was able to show how the moon created a magnetic force with a push that was able to accurately reflect the effects of the tides. At present(at that time actually) no one could duplicate this experiment and show th opposite effect.... that gravity was a pull....it seems that, theoretically, this scientist had indeed proven (to me) that the effects of gravity result from a magnetic repulsion, instead of attraction.


I thought of this info, and it had me thinking that it is at least theoretically possible that everything, including space itself was ALL moving around the earth, emulating the effect that we are all moving through space and around the sun.

Now, I do not believe this at all, but I thought that the gravity story was interesting and wanted to share it. It seems to make sense(strange but maybe true), your theory however still needs more convincing evidence. The model convinced me that it was at least possible...can you provide anything like that?

in His service
c

[arron]

no i do not believe in ufo.. only fools believe that. JESUS take a persons spirtit (if they are saved ) when they die, to heaven where HE is. if they are not saved they got to hell , which exsist now for the rich man went there

[smyrna]

Arron says only fools believe in UFOs. The statistics compiled by researchers say otherwise. The higher the education level, the more apt a person is to accept the possibility that intelligent beings have visited earth.

Now if I wanted to be a wise guy, I'd say Arron is the fool, since UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object, and certainly millions of people have seen things in the sky they could not identify.

Maybe they weren't close enough, or clouds or fog created a situation that made an airborne object hard to distinguish, and numer of things can keep people from being able to distinguish what could be very normal things.

In closing, I suppose Arron believes that the Israelites that saw the pillar of a cloud in the desert must be fools, since they were viewing an unidentified flying object.

Same with Ezekiel, who saw what he called a "whirlwind." have you ever "seen" whirling wind, Arron? It wasn't a tornado, Arron. Tornados don't have living creatures on them, or wheels.

[arron]

smyrna... are you saying i dont have education? well if education makes one a fool it doesnt do anything for them spiritualy. i may not have the education you CLAIM to have but i do know GODS WORD and that is enough for me no where in GODS word THE BIBLE does it say that the pillar of fire was a ufo not does it say so concerning the whirlwind as you say.. was a ufo because it wasnt. yes i have seen a whirl wind and it was not a ufo. the living beings were angels not ufo things

[smyrna]

Hey Arron,
Based upon your logic, Ostriches and Penguins do not exist, because the Bible doesn't mention them.
And I guess that it is ok to take Heroin, or LSD, because the Bible doesn't say anything at all about Heroin or LSD, right, Arron?

[ezekiel_37]

Ezekiel's description of the 'whirlwind' had a wheel on it's side.....

What do you think that this is if it is not some sort of vehicle, arron?

in His service
c

[arron]

this was a vision that ezekiel had. visions can have all kind of things in them. it was not a ufosmyrna... the bible doesnt mention a lot of things but we know by THE HOLY GHOST that they are wrong or that they do exsist. my limited education lets me know that

[arron]

smyrna... when i get to heaven and see JESUS i will ask HIM why they were not mentioned, the penquins and ostriches, but i want know how to get the info to you perhaps you can ask your alien captian about it i am sure he will have some lie to tell you

[smyrna]

Arron,
You don't understand that I do not consider UFOs to be a machine in the sense we do. Machines, at least ones that we have, do not transverse dimensions,or travel millions of miles.
Since as far as I know we have never captured or recovered a UFO, even though there are claims that we have, we do not know what the makeup of these "presences" in the sky are.
Now, we have numerous records, both in our own Scripture as well as many other ancient documents, that beings came down form the sky that were very huamn looking. God Himself said he made man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. let theologians argue who the "we" in those verses are, but I believe it is God and His angelic sons, who were present, and not co-creators, when He REPLENISHED the earth after the Katabole.
In addition, in modern times we have highly trained miltary as well as civilian pilots,who have not only had visual sightings of UFOs that defy any known aircraft with their abilities that have been recorded both on film as well as on radar. Visions, hallucinations,or imagination do not show up on radar.
So when pilots see an object that was also recorded on radar, making sharp turns at speeds that would kill a human being, then we know it was SOMETHING.
What, we don't know. But there are ture UFO's things that fly that we cannot explain away.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">HI Smyrna,

I think the reason why it's so hard for some of the detractors to believe that there are angelic vehicles is because they believe that angelic beings do not have a body. So if they don't have a body, they would not have a vehicle either. If they could get past hollywood's version of supernatural beings, maybe they could understand the other things more easily.</font>

[abiyah]

<font color="119911"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"></font>

Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
Quote: " this was a vision that ezekiel had. visions can have all kind of things in them." END
-------------------------------------------------

Hi Aaron ! : )

Remember now this was more than just " a vision", it was a vision OF God. See the difference ?

Ezekiel 1:1
" Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I [ I = being Ezekiel ] was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I SAW VISIONS OF GOD. "

Ezekiel 1:2
" In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's [ king for only 3 months ] captivity, "

Ezekiel 1:3
" The Word of The LORD came expressly
[ expressly= meaning EPSECIALLY for Ezekiel ] unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and The Hand of The LORD was there upon him. "

Ezekiel 1:4
" And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as THE COLOUR of AMBER, out of the midst of the fire. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Now, there is no such word as 'colour' in the Hebrew; the word here in the Hebrew is 'Ayin, which means eye; of physical eye; as showing mental qualities; As in, TO THE EYE it appeared to be bronze in color.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Amber in the Hebrew is 'Cashmal ' and it means a shining substance, amber, or electrum, or bronze; glowing metal; it was a polished bronze metal; IN OTHER WORDS,it was "highly polished bronze ".

In this first chapter here in Ezekiel, he indeed is trying to describe a vehicle, its flying, and its in a circle, and there are more than one of them in the sky, and they fly together in formation [ Ezekiel 1:9 ]; yet, you must keep in mind that Ezekiel has never seen a flying vehicle such as we see planes, or helicopters, so for a man of his time to describe these, I'm sure was a challenge, he can only compare them to that of which he has seen in his own lifetime. And he is doing as best he can to describe what it is he is seeing, the only thing that Ezekiel has seen flying is a bird, so he naturally gives these highly polished bronze vehicles wings [ Ezekiel 6-7 ] and straight feet for landing gear. They SHINED ! He goes on in this chapter to describe the eyes of these vehicles, those being the windows, and it is how Ezekiel could then see what was inside.

Abiyah</font>

[llm]

Jesus was taken up and recieved by a cloud. He ascended bodily into heaven. (See Acts) He had no need of a highly polished vehicle.

(I believe the point IS whether the earth is fixed or moving, and whether the sun IS fixed or moving. There is not even one scripture to support a moving earth fixed sun, like there is for the other way around. There is also no scientific proof either. So as long as you reject the bible for a kenite lie from the 1500's, you cannot be taken seriously.)
http://fixedearth.com/

[smyrna]

I was wondering today if llm was campaigning to keep Pluto on the list of our solar system's family of planets.

But those scientists, like us here on Factnet, probably wouldn't listen to him anyway.
Time after time we have stated our position, that Biblical references to the movements of the luminaries are given as from man's perspective, and he just keeps on trying to convince us of his geocentric theories.
It would be much easier for LLM if he didn't recommend goofball websites that claim stuff like man didn't land on the moon, or that a plane never hit the Pentagon on 9/11.
No matter what, this guy is so obssessed with this cosmic stuff, maybe he just should pack it in here at Factnet and hang on at the Coast-to-Coast AM discussion boards.

[watchman_2]

llm is such a hypocrite on his fixedearth claim. He wants to take every scripture related to his position literally, though he has been informed otherwise.

Yet, when I present to llm that the earth is flat as well according to a literal translation of Rev. 7:1, llm quickly abandons his literal interpretation rendering of the scriptures for a figurative one in this case.

[llm]

So how did Jesus ascend into heaven?

a. A gust of wind
b. angels with wings
c. a highly polished vehicle
d. bodily

[smyrna]

Now since llm has beeen thoroughly exposed as one predisposed to accepting products of the lunatic fringe, he now no longer wants to discuss, his geocentrism, which is a relief, and now digresses to how Jesus ascended.

All I can say to that is we don't reallly know, but we do have an earlier model to perhaps consider. And this is the taking up of Elijah.

Based on the literal reading of Scripture,(the only method llm accepts, no matter how much symbolism is expressed) II Kings 2, he went up to heaven in a "whirlwind."
However, according to the account, there were also horses and a chariot either on fire or made of fire, depending on how you interpret "of".
That is all I wish to give llm, because that is all he will understand. He is a real paradox.

[llm]

"So the sun returned". This is not mans perspective to man but God's sign to man

Is 38

7 And this shall be a sign unto thee from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing that he hath spoken;
8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

[smyrna]

llm, now swings from how Jesus ascended, back to this geocentric stuff.
Has he even heard of the solar miracle at Fatima?
Read up on it. As for Is. 38, that was a one time event, and not indicative of a geocentric paradigm.
Now what? Is he going to swing back to the how did Jesus ascend issue?

[llm]

Yes it was a one time even that the sun moved backwards, since the sun usually moves forwards as shown in the bible.

[llm]

(Psalm 19) This is not mans perspective to man
But Gods perspective to man.

In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

[smyrna]

I was waiting for llm to get to Psalm 19, but as with the other verses he sites, it is from man's perspective, and not how the mechanics of astronomy are designed.
Were that not so, He would have explained why comets, asteroids, and other more extra-planetary bodies move and what they mean. Supernovas, binary stars, and other clearly defined exhibits in the heavens would also have had coverage, if the main focus was to teach us astronomy.

One thing that cannot be explained is llm's obsession with this subject, because it does not really serve any purpose whatsoever, except an attempt by llm to satisfy his craving to maintain his lofty opinion of himself, and his insistance that he is in the possession of knowledge that is lacking in all those who disagree with him here at Factnet,but also the overwhelming majority of the scientific community, with their high-tech equipment, including probes sent to the moon, mars, and other bodies in our solar system, their trajectory determined by the movements of the planets, and not upon ridiculous geocentric theorems.

In closing, what llm calls "The fancy occult math" (see his post #226 above)is good enough to get our astronauts to and from the moon, and probes sent to mars venus, etc., then it is good enough for me.

Oh yeah, since he doesn't believe that we got to the moon, and apparently thinks the probes never travelled to any heavenly body (see how many people must be lying, and events must be relegated to fiction for him and the wacky webistes he wants us to read are correct)he will not be impressed by this counter-argument.

No, llm will continue his stupid rants about the cosmos, or try and digress back to the how did Jesus ascend question.

I wonder what llm does on Halloween.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">llm,

Could you please stick to the topic.

What do you say this verse is talking about when it speaks of the third heaven:</font>

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

<font color="0000ff">Thanks in advance</font>

[smyrna]

terluvire,

You did it now! LLM is probably using the search engines to find a website that explains the third heaven without agreeing with the Chapel teaching on the subject.
I can hardly wait to see what he comes up with.
After all, that is the extent of his research methods. Just look for a website that does not agree with the Chapel. And if the contents also include a few really strange conspiracy theories, all the better.

[llm]

terluvier, unless you understand the basic biblical truth of the fixed earth moving sun, you will never understand the third heaven.
That this universe is smaller than the deceivers
would have you believe, and that God placed the earth at the center.

http://fixedearth.com/Size_and_Structure%20Part%20IV.htm

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">With all due respect llm, whether you believe in a fixed earth or not, that has nothing to do with the "third heaven".

Again, what do you say this verse is talking about:</font>
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[smyrna]

terluvire,

Just like I said, except LLM didn't even bother going to look for a new website. He just keeps on referencing that ridiculous fixed earth site, which is now for him an irrefutable divine oracle that is superior to any human being on earth.

This guy has to believe that there has never been any man made object that landed anywhere outside of earth in order for his claims to be true.

For LLM to be correct, everyone else must be lying. "Fancy occult math" as he calls astronomical calculations designed to navigate planetary space probes and manned space missions to their respective destinations, would be unable to do so if it is as he describes it.

Notice he completely disregarded that point, which is a typical tactic of the Fab Five.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Hello all! David, Forgive my ignorance, but just what do YOU believe about this "fixed Earth" theory? Am I to believe that the Earth is really in the place of the Sun and all the planets etc. revolve around the Earth? No offense, but that website was not very helpful, or maybe I just don't get it.(Do you believe that the Earth is also hollow or flat?)

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Smyrna,

Yes, I did notice how he keeps taking the topic back to the fixed earth theory. I also agree that he is avoiding answering the question.

But I hope llm realizes that whether he believes the earth is fixed or not has no bearing on the "third heaven".

I think he is purposely trying to keep the discussion on "fixed earth", which I'm not even going to touch. It is ridiculous in my opinion. I'm trying to keep him on topic..lol

I do hope that he does answer about the third heaven with scripture instead of his fixed earth theory, which wasn't an answer at all.

Only arron gave us his take on it. llm will not address it directly.

llm, can you answer it?</font>

[smyrna]

terluvire,
You wrote "I do hope that he does answer about the third heaven with scripture instead of his fixed earth theory, which wasn't an answer at all."

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting. This guy has a new Church: the church of conspiracy theories.

His altar has statues of Marshall Hall (geocentrism proponent) and Ted Kennedy (liberal ideologue, who thinks we should depend on the government for all things, even protecting our lives and homes though we may live miles away from any available law enforcement)
Yes, LLM doesn't have his head in the clouds, he has it way above it, where there is no air to feed his deteriorating brain cells,and where he can see
his fixed earth, due to the halluciantions his oxygen starved brain is experiencing.

[llm]

Fixed earth is not a theory, it is scriptural. The moving earth is an Kabbalistic theory or lie from the 1500's.

[smyrna]

As long as llm continues to dodge the question as to how manned or unmanned spaceprobes are able to navigate to their destinations, whether it be the Moon, Venus, Mars or Saturn, while depending upon what llm terms "fancy occult math", then he may as well go somewhere else to rant and rave, because he will have zero credibity here.

He really only has one option: to admit he actually believes that all those missions were part of a massive cover-up, and that none of these missions actually occurred.

llm's arrogance is beyond logic. He won't even call the fixed earth theory a theory.

[smyrna]

llm Is Finished

llm has had the opportunity to answer three questions and he has repeatedly dodged them.

He won't answer the question: What does the the verse referring to the Third Heaven in II Cor. 12:2 mean to him?

He won't answer the question: If scientists responsible for charting the path of both manned and unmanned missions to the moon and planetary bodies are using "fancy occult math" as he calls it, then how are they able to reach their destinations with such precision?

The third question: Based upon his contention that the MT (Masoretic text)is corrupt and inferior to the LXX (Septuagint), can he supply us with an example of a variation that is servere enough to be labeled iconoclastic to either Christianity or Judaism?

Since he continually dodges these qustions, he really should be cosnidered finished here at Factnet's Shepherd's Chapel oriented forum.

Oh, he can still post his nonsense, but why would anyone pay him any attention? He has shown us, through his obvious ploys intended to divert attention from the fact he has yet to answer the three question above, that he cannot even defend his own positions?

llm is finished. No credibility. He should be treated as a bothersome drunk who babbles incoherently in public.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Smyrna,

LOL I'm still waiting for llm to answer. But I won't hold my breath.</font>

[llm]

terluvier, I am only pointing you in the right direction. I am not going to do your work for you. If you search these things out you might find your belief in Arnolds teaching begin to unravel. I have listened to everything Arnold has had to say, and I just don't agree with it.

[kimberlyfredrick]

llm, If the Earth does not rotate on it's axis and the Sun revolves around the Earth, then why the deception from all the governments and space programs of the world? I'd really like to know. Thanks in advance.

[llm]

Does it suprise you that the whole world can be decieved about something? The short answer is that I would say it is Satans lie to make you feel insignificant.

http://www.fixedearth.com/theoretical%20sci.Part%20I.htm
http://www.fixedearth.com/subject_areas/subject_area_4.htm

[kimberlyfredrick]

llm, I know that the world has been decieved by satan The fixed earth theory does not make me feel insignificant. Would you please answer my question.

[llm]

To discredit the bible. To remove God from the universe through evolution and panspermia, and make mankind feel as insignificant as cosmic space dust.

[watchman_2]

As an engineer, I really enjoy llm's physics explanations of why the earth is fixed.

When he first brought the topic to the table a few months ago, he was insistent that a helicopter that goes straight up from New York, should be able to land in San Francisco a certain time later by coming straight down, if the earth was rotating.

Of course, llm's argument was easily defeated then by explaining centrifugal force. I don't know if he was stupid enough to raise this point again in this go around of his fixedearth theory.

Well, I still have to laugh at his speed arguments. He pointed out that, for the earth to go around the sun, the earth would have to be traveling at some high speed that was several times the speed of a bullet.

Yes, llm, the calculations can be made to show that the earth would have to travel at that high speed to circle the sun in one year. And, yes, it is a very high speed that we cannot relate to here on the earth's surface.

However, did the thought ever enter into your brain what the converse argument entails?

For the earth to be fixed, the sun would have to travel around the earth, but, not in one year -- but, in one day. Accordingly, the speed of the sun would have to be 365 times the speed of that which the earth would need to circle the sun.

So, llm's speed argument, like most of his insane theories, lacks merit.

Did he ever answer the question why NASA sends spaceships west to east and why it takes less fuel to launch close to the equator v. the poles?

[llm]

The answer to your question is solar jet streams.

And never mind the speed of the sun, check out the stars, man they are really booking. At least there is no one living on them.
http://fixedearth.com/Size_and_Structure%20Part%20IV.htm

[plow_deep]

Solar jet streams?

Bet they had a heck of a time landing those mars probes.

Kinda amazing when you think of comets too...thats one heck of an orbit.

[llm]

we live in a plasma electric universe
http://www.kronia.com/electric.html

and yes there are plasma jet streams
http://focus.aps.org/story/v16/st4

[llm]

solar jet streams http://www.jracademy.com/%7Ewotawaj/sun.html

[watchman_2]

The solar jet streams would be going east to west under the fixed earth theory. Hence, NASA would launch spacecraft to circle the earth east to west to take advantage of the solar jet streams. As we all know, NASA launches spacecraft west to east to take advantage of the winds and the rotating earth.

[llm]

The sun would be going from East to West, but the jet streams might be pushing the other way from West to East. Like dust from a wheel on a farm road. But I think it is too early for them to know how plasma jet streams really work. They just discovered them. Anyway, my view of NASA is that they seem to be bumbling idiots, who if they get something right, are more surprised than the public.

(Message edited by llm on September 02, 2006)

[smyrna]

llm wrote:

"Anyway, my view of NASA is that they seem to be bumbling idiots"...

There are few more arrogant utterances on this forum as this one. And it comes from a guy who relly believes the earth does not move. He really thinks that NASA, who has had more sucessful missions than failures, in a highly technical field, are "bumbling idiots."

I'm sure that llm, using his geocentric theories, can calculate forumulas and use computer programs to send space probes to the moon, mars, and other bodies.

This guy is so whacked out, he actually sees himself as so superior to those who work for NASA,
that he can judge them to be bumbling idiots.

Perhaps llm can write NASA a letter, explaining to them how they are so wrong about their ideas of the solar system, and how HE can straighten them out, and make sure that in the future that they will never have an unsuccessful mission of any kind.

[smyrna]

llm says we live in an "electric universe" (llm Post #256 above)

No wonder I am 'shocked' when I read one of his posts.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">LOL!! Good one Smyrna</font>http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif