ARRON PROVES THE SERPENT SEED DOCTRINE IS FALSE

[kimberlyfredrick]

HELLO EVERYONE. MY NAME IS KIM.

MANY HERE INCLUDING ARRON KEEP TELLING ME THAT THE SERPENT SEED DOCTRINE IS A FALSE DOCTRINE.

I HAVE ASKED ARRON TO USE THIS THREAD TO WITNESS TO ME AND TO ANY WHO COME HERE. I HAVE ASKED HIM TO EXPLAIN THE SHEPHERDS CHAPEL VERSION OF THIS DOCTRINE AND TO PROVE WITH SCRIPTURE AND VERSE WHY IT IS FALSE.

Arron,

This is a public forum, so I will ask that everyone refrain from posting their comments until you have had a reasonable opportunity to prove your case.

You will have 5 posts to express your views then the public will get a chance to join in the debate.

Please use your 5 posts to plead your case today. Please state when you are finished posting so the public can join in this debate as soon as possible.

I will study what you post and will join in the debate with my answer as soon as I have one.

[arron]

i did not START this post it was started by kimberly who used my namae sayingthat i had proved the doctrine false. i did not. i did not start the thread nor give my approval for it to be started. she did this in her own. also SHE DID NOT ASK ME TO USE THIS THREAD IF SHSE DID I HAVE FOUND IT YET. I DID NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO USE MY NAME AS A HEADER FOR THIS THREAD
I AM FINISHED WITH THIS THREAD
i

[kimberlyfredrick]

Arron,

Re-read my post above. I stated MY NAME and that I STARTED this thread.


This is a public forum. When you are challenged to a debate it is done PUBLICALLY. This is the proper way to debate.

Have you ever watched debates on TV? Those that are not present are chanllenged to a new debate publically. There is no preliminary behind the scenes asking if it is OK to challenge another to a public debate.

Arron, since you post on a public forum, I assumed you knew how to play by the rules. I also assumed that since you stated that the Serpent Seed Doctrine was a false doctrine that you could prove to me how it is not true to help me.

You have flat out refused to help me. Please do not ever again tell me that something is not true when you refuse to prove it. God does not like that.

You are stating the Gospel according to Arron not the word of God.

[godchild]

This is ridiculous. Kim, You should have invited arron to a debate if you wanted one, and then if he agreed you could list one under an agreed name. Instead, what you have done is take control of a thread. It is not up to arron to show you the serpent seed doctrine. That's what the scer's are here for, and they have covered it. Arron has made it clear he disagrees with it. He has every right to disagree with it. You have taken it upon yourself to insist that he respond to you alone. You don't make the rules at factnet.

As for God not liking the fact that arron refused to help you, are you able to read and study? You said you are not sure of the serpent seed doctrine, yet have studied with am for years, according to you. It is you who should be providing scripture if you want to agree with am/sc, as no follower of his would ever deny this is an important part of his teachings. Leave God out of your childish pranks.

How can you accuse arron of stating the gospel according to himself if you don't have knowledge of the doctrine or what the Bible says about it; which, by the way, is nothing! It's false doctrine. When someone says something is true, it is up to THEM to provide evidence, not the people who hear about it.

[angie0401]

<font color="0000ff">QUOTE:When someone says something is true, it is up to THEM to provide evidence, not the people who hear about it.</font>

Oh, like people claiming Pastor Murray is a racist, affiliated with unsavory characters and all that rubbish that some of YOU posted then told US to disprove? PUH LEEZE... Pot meet kettle!

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">godchild said:
QUOTE:When someone says something is true, it is up to THEM to provide evidence, not the people who hear about it.

Angie said:
Oh, like people claiming Pastor Murray is a racist, affiliated with unsavory characters and all that rubbish that some of YOU posted then told US to disprove? PUH LEEZE... Pot meet kettle!

<font size="+2">hehehe, Good one Angie ! LOL</font></font>

[abiyah]

<font color="ff0000"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"></font>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGood Afternoon to you Kimberly &amp; Aaron !

You know... I think this was a very wise thing for Kimberly to do, in that you Aaron have taught Kimberly that the serpent seed doctrine/tares of the field is untrue. You, Aaron have claimed many other Biblical Truths including the serpent seed doctrine to be trash, garbage, and ridiculous. So then yes indeed, it is her responsiblity to question you, so that you can help her understand where we as Christians err in our understanding of God's Word, and to show her The Truth, and prove to her WITH The Word of God that the serpent seed doctrine is false. So then yes Aaron, SHOW US, AND DOCUMENT WITH THE WORD OF GOD, that the serpent seed is not true, show Kimberly IN THE WORD OF GOD that the tares are not the children of the wicked one. So then please, STAND FOR THE TRUTH that you believe in ! Can you stand for what you believe to be True by using God's Word ?

And F.Y.I. Vivian...... We have proven the serpent seed doctrine to be TRUTH from God's Word time, and time, and time again to Aaron, and we did so WITH The Word of God, DOCUMENTING, yet Aaron has NOT proven to us that it is false by utilizing God's Word, showing us in God's Word that it is not so. However, Aaron continues to come here and claims this Truth to be false, to be untrue, and a lie. At least you godchild kicked the dust from off you feet concerning these threads under the Shepherd's Chapel, and went on about your way, but please, this time, take Aaron with you. Because IF he is not here to help those that are lost in darkness, or ensnared by traditions of men, or to even help Kimberly, then feel free to take him with you. " ) Anyone who calls Father's Truths garbage, trash, etc. should really move on from these threads here anyway ...... I think.

Abiyah</font>

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Angie, have I told you lately that I just love having you here? Cause I do!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif You are always right on top of it!! You go Angie!!</font>

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">HI Abiyah!!

Quote:
At least you godchild kicked the dust from off you feet concerning these threads under the Shepherd's Chapel, and went on about your way, but please, this time, take Aaron with you. Because IF he is not here to help those that are lost in darkness, or ensnared by traditions of men, or to even help Kimberly, then feel free to take him with you. " ) Anyone who calls Father's Truths garbage, trash, etc. should really move on from these threads here anyway ...... I think.

Good post!!</font>

[kimberlyfredrick]

hello Everyone,

How disapointing. How can anyone tell me that a doctrine is false yet refuse to tell me why then twist it so as to make me look like a bad guy? All for asking a question and posting a thread to debate on a debate forum? And then send in the wolfpack to chastise me to dare ask??


OH, and get this. This whole thing has got Godchild so hot under the collar that she has started her own personal attack on me at Cultbusters. She has started a thread entitled Sabbatarian. And posted a lengthy post about one of the 1,000 of churchs out there which choice to worship on saturday.

If she keeps it up, her posts will last for years....LOL.since they range from Church of God to Baptist to Catholic!

I was nice though. I threw her a bone. If she will research it it will be a good study of what appears to be a dangerous cult which is becoming extremely powerful. There leader claims to be the endtime watchman and that his church is the only true church. He's even got a TV prgram which is hot right now.

[kimberlyfredrick]

OK, this whole ideal was a wash-out. This is a dead thread so I guess we'll just change the topic or nip this thread in the bud. Any takers on a topic?

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">LOL Don't worry Kimberly, godchild thinks she's doing good at cultmakers...lol Let her stay there. What she is doing is what she has always done. She thinks she really knows her stuff though in reality she is biblically illiterate for the most part. All you have to do is read her posts here to see it for yourself.

Hopefully the bone you threw her will keep her busy for awhile. I think she needs something to occupy her time.</font>

[kimberlyfredrick]

Arron,

I know why you backed out of the debate, 'cause you can't debate the issue! You HAVE NEVER took out your Bible and tried to prove or disprove the Serpent Seed doctrine, now have ya??? You are blind and deaf 'cause you chose to be. You fear anything different or new. If your friends and family and church don't beleive, well thats good enough for you....eh???

I just bet you never tried to discern if your rapture theory is correct either. Heck, I'd be willing to bet you can't even find your way around a Bible.

People like you sicken me. You state opinion without fact and when asked to provide fact you use slander, change the subject, evade the question, call us names and turn tale and run.

You swoop in here ,throw down your worthless opinion, (yeah, worthless just as worthless as mine or anybody elses) and proclaim to God and everybody that it is the truth.By your actions you don't even need Gods word as authority. Yours is just fine.

You know, we are not dicussing something as meaninless as movies here. people come here to learn. In a debate you must use facts or you are disqualified. We are here discussing the word of God. It don't get more serious than this buddy.

And you had better learn now that stating opnions and using them to dispell doctrines is calling the word of God less important than your own word.

You arron have placed yourself above the word of God and that my friend is idolitry. You wish the readers to believe your opnion against scripture. man, you are an enemy to Christ and I doubt very much that you even realize it.

[arron]

believe what you want serpent seeder

[arron]

believe what you want serpent seeder

[angie0401]

OK - I can't believe I'm doing this, but kim I have to say that I think you are being a bit hard on arron. I vehemently disagree with most everything arron posts, but I do believe that he loves God with all of his heart and to the best of his ability.

I think he is really, really misled and out of line with the slurs he has slung around here. However, I think we all realize, like plow said, that he is unwittingly being used. THOSE are the ones that we should truly be upset with. They are taking this poor fella and using him to further THEIR agenda.

I don't mean to call you out or make you feel bad, kim, but I do see where in previous posts that you see his heart is pure, even if he isn't very kind in his recent posts. I prayed for him and David tonight at our prayer meeting. I'm sorry, but there are just some that I can't bring myself to pray for other than that YHVH will deal with them swiftly and justly.

kim, I know how you feel - it's hard to read some of these posts without it causing righteous indignation, but when we stoop to their level, we are no better than them (and I mean the REAL players, not the ones being used). I <u>know</u> that you don't want to be compared to them (her) at all, so just let it slide off your back, sister.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Arron's actions speak louder than words and words are what he used to reveal his true self

And yes, I did give him the benefit of the doubt

I agree he is being used but he is a grown man. He chose his buddies and his actions.

And by the way Angie....OWWW...that newspaper swat to the nose hurt!!!.....LOL....(Thanks for caring about my character. I do tend to jump off the path from time to time)

I don't know off hand what I did to stoop to their level, but for offending you or anyone I do apologize.

[angie0401]

Kim,
Hey, girl, I'm one of the worst about allowing them to get the better of me and get under my skin. I didn't mean to imply that you were necessarily stooping to their level (but you were getting close LOL) - it was more of a warning to myself for my future actions. Then I can come back here and read what I posted to remind ME that I shouldn't stoop. You know?

Sorry about the newspaper swat! I know you and I didn't get off to the best start, but I have enjoyed your sense of humor and I am glad that you are here. I appreciate your posting and hope you continue to do so.

Don't get too worried about cultbusters (I LOVED the "new" name you gave it - cultblunders). They are content to coddle those who flat out deny the deity of Christ, but heaven forbid that you don't believe in things like talking snakes, being raptured away and all their little traditions... That gets their feathers ruffled, but if you want to call Christ a liar, that's ok.

Consider the source, heh?

Kim - I hope I didn't offend you. I know we're on the same side.

Are we ok?

Angie

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Angie, I too find myself stooping down to their level and it's not good. Everytime I say that's it, I won't do it anymore.....there I do it again. Granted, some of them get under my skin, but that's still no excuse.

Kim, You're not alone in your frustration with them. We've been dealing with it for months, some for a year or so. Best we can do is try to set the right example while dealing with them. I know at times it's hard. I've failed myself and will probably fail again in the future.

But I do agree with Angie, although arron might say things which are completely untrue concerning us, and might I add...rude, he truly does love the Lord. He really does believe he is doing good. He just has a heck of a way of showing it to us.

Like Angie said....let it roll of your back and pray for them.

Ladies, you both have a wonderful night...even you Arron.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif</font>

[kimberlyfredrick]

Sure Angie!!!
Were better than OK, were Sistas is Christ!


I am glad to have you in my walk. You did not offend me in the least. I respect your views and I appreciate your concern for my character and well-being.

And please never worry about how we met. I have been here long enough to see the abuse you guys have to put up with on a daily basis. How were any of you to know that I was a friend seeing the way I introduced myself....LOL (man...I really regret THAT one!)

And I was just joking about the newspaper thingy. But the next time I need a swat, how about taking the paperboy's hand otta it first! (I think this is gonna leave a mark......LOL)

And yes, we are indeed on the same side. The winning side with Jesus the Chrsit.

[watchman_2]

When arron gets too overwhelmed here, he likes to lament under other topics/threads in hope of finding sympathy for the rough treatment he receives here. He is such a baby!

[arron]

well ive been called a baby and also an old man i am neither i am a man not a baby and not an old man either
my questiion that has never ever been answered if the trees were JESUS and satan why did thye grow out of the ground?

[kimberlyfredrick]

Arron,
Let me explain. The trees in Genesis are symbolic just like the tree of Ezekeil. Just like the bread and wine in the last supper.

Now Arron, you don't really think that Jesus asked his disciples to eat his real flesh or drink his blood now do you? I am trying to help you here. I do not know why you are having so much difficulty with this one. I suggest you discuss this with your minister. Maybe he can help you with the symbolism in the Bible.

Quite frankly, I do not know why you are asking us this question since you do not beleive we hold any truths. If you are trying to get something started, why don't you just start your own thread? Heck, put my
name on it, why should I care.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Arron,

I agree that the trees in Genesis are symbolic or it was a literal action meant to mirror a spiritual event. I haven't come to the conclusion that the fruit was sex though.

Anyone trying to look at Genesis without understanding the symbolism is going to miss a large part of understanding many of the lessons that the Bible is trying to present.

Regardless, I don't see the issue as one that needs to be pushed over and over and over again. God reveals things when we are ready for them. You can't push anyone to see something that they are not ready to see.

I started to go against the "serpent seeders" but then realized that I did understand the Bible presented me symbolic things. I don't see everything that the serpent seeders see but I'm careful to go against something I don't completely understand.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Way!!

It's always nice to see you!!

You have always been objective and fair. I like that in a person.</font> http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wayfaring_stranger]

Terluvire,

I appreciate the comment but no - I have not always been objective and fair. I try but we are all just humans.

I will be the first to say that I don't have the symbolism stuff down and have inaccurately misinterpreted at times and have made some major mistakes with my actions because of this. I have made mistakes against Rachel and I am sorry for that and I may have made some mistakes against symbolism and the Serpent Seeders and I apologize in that too.

Still . . . my hearts desire, is in spite of my mistakes, to really understand the symbolism in the Bible and in the metaphors, etc. that God brings our way every day. I know I'm just a babe in this but I want to really get this down. I don't want to mistakes in either direction - missing the symbolism where it exists or making things symbolic when they don't exist.

At least here, I can explore this. I think it is more beneficial to look at the various fews and even bought a book that provides different perspectives on the creation story. It is deep in my soul to understand God's symbolism but ignoring it shuts out a large part of the Bible and what witness is that? I think God wants me to understand this so maybe I can write children's books or something inspirational through parables, etc. That's what is in my heart. And all I want is to find an environment that accepts that this is the direction that God wants me to move toward.

(Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger on October 12, 2006)

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Way,

I do appreciate your humbleness. It's very refreshing. But if I may, at least from the posts I have read from you, for the most part, you have been objective. That being said, we are all humans and all fall short. Thank the Lord for repentance.

I can understand you not wanting to make a huge mistake. I have been there myself! One thing I can say about the Shepherd's Chapel is that we are told to check everything out for ourselves, even to check Pastor Murray out. And believe me I have done that....I still do that. But each person has to do it for themselves, they cannot believe a thing just because they were told it is so.

I respect the fact that you question things. Everyone should. NO one should believe blindly what they are taught or told, even if it comes from a famous religious leader, whoever that might be.</font>

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[wayfaring_stranger]

Well, I appreciate you making me feel welcome. Everyone longs to be in a place where they can be where they are on there journey and accepted for what they say (even their mistakes) and where they can state what is on their mind even if other people don't want to discuss the issue with them.

I think that is what a real friend is. Many people say that they will always be your friend and stand by you unconditionally but I have found very few people actually willing to do this. So my journey takes me to want to study symbolism. Pray for me to find friends that can accept me where I am in my journey.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Arron,

my questiion that has never ever been answered if the trees were JESUS and satan why did thye grow out of the ground?

I wouldn't consider myself a serpent seeder but I can't help but think that the trees were literal trees that represented the spiritual realm and man's spiritual sin of disobedience. A literal act of being deceived by the serpent mirroring a spiritual truth.

If Jesus is not the tree of Life - then what is the tree of life?

I want you to know that you are my friend. I don't know that the fruit would be sex but maybe my mind has difficulty facing that concept but I do get the bit about the trees.

[smyrna]

I've been away for a while. Much to my amusement,I read the title of this thread and could hardly contain myself.
Arron 'proves' the serpent seed doctrine is false?

Arron couldn't prove the sky is blue on a clear summer day.

Of all the people that have posted in this forum, Arron is clearly the most incapable of any articulation that would actually lend any veracity to the laugahble title of this thread. Here's why:

1. He is the most unlearned, as can be seen by his own words, compared with known facts re Scripture.
Example: He refuses to acknowledge that the idiom "uncovering a man's nakedness" as used in Scripture, means to sleep with his wife.

2. His cultish clinging to puerile medieval myths re Scripture exposes him as just another narrow minded, denominationally challenged, confused personality.

3. His contributions to this forum have never gone much farther than heckling, declaring his own beliefs, and siding with those who attack the SC students here, like some ra ra cheerleader.

All anyone has to do is read Arron's posts going back maybe only one week, and this alone would convince any sentient being that he is quite incapable of proving anything, except that he is nothing but a muttering heckler, who for whatever reason just cannot stay in his own little Pentacostal Church, and leave everyone else alone.

No, he has to join a group of people who have already decided in their minds that the SC is some heretical cult, which in their minds justifies their various behaviors in this forum.

Sadly, in some sick way he must enjoy all this attention. Well, he's got it, and I hope he's having a good time. I sure am.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Smyrna,

I don't think that was necessary. It was just throwing stones. For the most part Arron just states his beliefs and leaves them there. He hardly ever goes into a long discourse about why another person is wrong. You may call that heckling - I'm not certain that it is.

[smyrna]

Wayfaring_stranger

Hey, since Kimberely really titled the post as a tongue-in-cheek jibe at Arron, I suppose I didn't have to state the obvious anyway.

But Arron does engage in heckling. His posts are not always heckling, but he does his fair share of it, I can assure you.

But to most regulars on this forum, he's really a non-issue. He has no effectiveness as a debater, he's just a hanger-on with those who are more articulate and knowledgeable.

What I think is the most ironic aspect of Arron's continuing presence here, is the fact that he is a Pentecostal.

If we SC students had the same spirit as so many of our opponenets, we'd have set up anti-pentecostal websites a long time ago. We would have called it a cult, we would have called them racists (how many black Pentecostals do YOU know?), we would have got a hold of film clips of them dancing with rattlesnakes and drinking strychnine. (ok,, not all do, but that is one of my points, his Church cannot even agree with each other, but he thinks he can go and try and criticize others)

I can go on, but you get my drift.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hello Wayfaring_stranger,
I don't think we've conversed before but I just wanted to welcome you to the site.
Though I'm not a follower of Mr.Murray I seem to get along with most here and I realise that there are members of Christ's body here as well as in most denominations.
Even the ones we have doctrinal disagreements with.

It seems that at times comunication can break down into emotional reaction when things get a little heated.

I like your approach and I think that probably most here do as well.
I see another member of Christ's body behind what you post and I want to say that I give the Lord the thanks for that.

I have come to see that inspite of the hot spots,people here would drop their differences in a flash to help another in need and I know that there is much prayer on both sides
(if there really are sides) for each other.
---
Smyrna,
I can't help this one(I see humor).http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif
You asked "how many black Pentecostals do YOU know?"
I know you where asking Arron but I have to answer that one.
One of the first Penticostle churches I attended made me feel like wipped cream on chocolate.
I think I was one of maybe ten white guys in the whole place.(not that I was uncomfortable)
It was a hoot! Talk about your gospel worship music.I think that if they sang for another five minutes the roof would have lifted off the building.

Just wanted to say that.

God bless,
Dave
</font>}

[rachelengland]

I had a good laugh at that too Davehttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifThere are plenty of African American, pentecostal churches and they are incredible.

Study to show your self approved-rightly dividing the word of truth. We may have difference in theology and it is important not to be blown wherever the wind could take us because it is the popular teaching of the day-or it has mysticism which intrigues us.

When all comes down to it, Christ is the way and He accepts no matter our colour, creed or background. R

[smyrna]

Dave,

I satnd corrected on that one. I live in southern Louisiana, and I was gojng by the fact that ALL the Pentecostal Churches that I pass by on my rides through the countryside are attened by whites.

But this is just a digression. The main point I was making is that Arron has little room for criticism of any Church, when his own denomination
is certainly vulnerable to the same charges levelled at Chapel students.

Whether the charges are warranted or not is not at issue.

[kimberlyfredrick]

I'm in Mississippi and I second that Smyrna. Pentecostal is strictly white only! The black churches do resemble them in musicical worship though.

They are generally names MT Zion or Mt something, many being Baptist in their church roots. I've never attended one but I bet it would be an uplifting experience.

And about Arron. He just can't help it. He's got 'Religious tunnel vision'.

If it ain't preached in his little church and his friends and family dont believe it then to him it is 'of the devil'. This is true Pentacostal thinking.

At least from were I live anyway.

[wayfaring_stranger]

David,

I'm not all that and we have talked to each other before when I was a different person. I'm just trying to do what God would want me to do but I often fail. It is nice to talk to you though!

I don't know that I would call symbolism the same thing as mystisicm. There is no doubt that symbolism exists in the Bible.

I wish someone would give me another example of what fruit refers to besides sex. That just has never set right with me. Was their a literal fruit - I think so, was their a literal talking snake - why not? There was a literal talking donkey. Does this represent a spiritual truth. I think it has to - because of the tree of life. And that one thing makes me switch to a more spiritual symbolic interpretation. It's obvious who the tree of life is.

Arron is Arron. One thing I have learned is that you can't always assume someone acts the way you would act. You might not be able to get there because you don't have their perceptions. But we are all different. Not everyone comes to Factnet to debate. In fact, many people come here to voice their opinion only. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Way,
Quote:
I wish someone would give me another example of what fruit refers to besides sex

I know fruit can also mean deeds, actions, children:</font>

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Gen 30:2 And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

<font color="0000ff">These are just a few examples.

Hope that helps.</font> http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wayfaring_stranger]

Yes it does and I knew that but just was frustrated.

I'm just throwing this out and I don't mean to offend. I'm just thinking out loud. Do you think the serpent seed doctrine or even looking at the symbolic leads to Gnosticism? I know that the Bible, no doubt, interprets its own symbols and I think we should look for them. I just haven't got a complete handle on this yet.

You know the funny thing is that my fellowship prides itself from coming through a certain bloodline of churches and one such church or group of Christians is the Albigensians. Then I recently learned that this was a group that some consider gnostic.

God Bless,

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Way,

No, I dont' think you're being offending.

As far as Gnosticisim goes, I really don't know much about it. Smyrna would be a better one to ask.

To me, to determine what is symbolic and what is not is that, when something is being spoken of in God's word and it doesn't fit anything in the natural sense, meaning...fitting into how God created nature, then to me it is smybolic. I do not believe any creature, whether human, animial, or plant, has changed greatly since God created them. Now there is other symbology which is less obvious, not as outstanding as things unnatural. Those take a bit more study to see. But the obvious ones are the things spoken of which is clearly unnatural.

Look at the book of Revelations:</font>

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

<font color="0000ff">Now I know God did not create any beast with 7 heads, so this is symbolic. The same reasoning goes to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The only knowledge a tree has is to be a tree. So, at least to me, it is speaking of something else here, not a literal tree. I know of no tree that can make someone wise. If it were so, my son would be searching it out to ace his tests. (Just a little joke here)

That's how I see it. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Way, I can't claim to be of any denomination, even when growing up. I've been to many different denominations...Catholic, Penecostal, Luthern, Baptist, Protestant...ect. So personally, I feel no real connection, or allegiance, to any particular denomination. All I wanted was some answers to my questions which no one could ever provide, that is until SC. But each has to determine what is the correct answer and what is not. We are all on that journey. For me, I've found my answers and I never looked back. But each is the captian of their own ship. The responsiblility lies on themselves and no one else...no even their pastor.

I might add, I really do enjoy talking to you.</font>

[wayfaring_stranger]

You know - there is not really anything I can disagree with regarding your post.

Thanks for the response! I have to be careful because I have a creative side and I could live a large part of my life in the symbolic but satan can use that against you too and scare you half out of your wits (or completely) if you don't watch out. All I can do is trust on the Lord. The sad thing is that I really do have the capability of using both sides of my brain and you can probably see that in my posts. LOL! The ones on Manuscript Evidence, etc. - left side brain and then I go off on my tangents and you have to say - there goes the right side of the brain. Well just like my left side, I've got to get a handle on my right side too.

Take care,

[plow_deep]

I hope you dont mind me adding that "sea" is symbolic for the peoples of the world.

I cant help but picture those that take this in a literal form...standing on a beach keeping an eye out for some godzilla type of monster to rise up out of the ocean. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

Of course, the rest of the verse is heavy on symbolism too.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Go ahead and elaborate on the rest of the verse.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Way, I believe that if one is truly sincere in their search for the truth God has written, it will be found. All wisdom comes from God, he and he alone opens the scriputers to you. No one can open eyes except the Lord. You just keep at it with studying and praying for guidance. And I think God likes it when we use both sides of our brain as opposed to one side..lol

I like your sense of humor.

Take care also.</font>

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hey Plow,

Jump in all you want. I enjoy it!!</font>

[plow_deep]

Oops! I was off reading threads.

The 1st beast is a system of world government.

The beast has seven heads which represent worldly principalities or kingdoms or heads of state, if you will. Ten horns representing horns of power those that are in control of those kingdoms or states and have power over them to rule. Horns in Scripture are a representation of power and strength. The ten crowns represent those kingdoms and signify the domination of the ten horns.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Plow Deep that's what I have heard and been taught before too.

Thanks all!

Talk to ya later.

[plow_deep]

Terluvire and Wayfaring,

I enjoyed following your conversation.

Peace

[wayfaring_stranger]

You know I have to be honest with you. I started to go along with the serpent seed cultbuster story but couldn't get a comfort level. I actually really enjoy those that post there and have absolutely nothing against them but several things kept me away: 1) Lack of trust - this has nothing to do with them - it's a problem that I have with people in general; 2) the fact that I knew there was symbolism relating to this and I just wanted to explore the symbolism (along with the literal) and be careful to not make another error (as I have in the past) by criticizing something and finding out later I was wrong; 3) I think that I was alone in this and it is not right for me to push this one others; 4) I knew I wasn't expert enough in this so I should back off right now; and 5) I feel that God is wanting me to go a different direction instead of repeating the same errors over and over and over again. So I pulled back and stopped participating there but not because I have any ill feelings with anyone there - I just never had the comfort level that I should have had which I should have honored to let me know that this was not the place that I needed to be for now.

Still, I hear really negative things about the serpent seed doctrine and Mr. Murray. I understand from the Carm.org webpage that he does not believe in the trinity etc.

Sometimes I think I should just keep my mouth shut and stay away from all of these sites and keep my head in the Bible. I just enjoy chatting. I used to get so irritated by my mom's family because they talked and talked and talked and I felt that I never talked that much. Then my best friend in high school reminded me that we often had to right "I will not talk in class" over and over again. She said that this was because I would not shut up. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif Can you believe that? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

So I like to chat and chat and I'm transparent usually which gets me in trouble. What's a person to do? LOL!

[smyrna]

wayfaring_stranger,

You wrote: "Still, I hear really negative things about the serpent seed doctrine and Mr. Murray. I understand from the Carm.org webpage that he does not believe in the trinity etc."

Your problem is that you listen to anything that comes from CARM. If there is anyone who is a wolf in sheep's clothing, it's Matt Slick.

I have no problem telling you or anyone else he is a liar and a coward. I don't throw around empty allegations. Just try and balance what you read there with my expose' of him at scripturetruth.homestead.com

I doubt there are many places on the web where you will get a more insightful view of the Chapel than here, or perhaps at the Fig Tree. There are, of course, a few SC groups at Yahoogroups, and others I am sure at MSN groups.

By the way, you can forget that garbage about Murray not believing in the Trinity. What they mean is that he does not explain the Trinity the way they want him to explain it. Scholars have, and still do, argue about the mystery of the Trinity. But to say he does not believe in the Trinity is just one more of their tactics, and in this case, it's a lie.

It (Trinity) remains a mystery, but when the Scriptures speak of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then they do exist certainly, and that is all we really need to know in this life. We will get the answer in the next life.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Smyrna,

I like to think that even if I have a problem that my God is big enough to bring me to the place He wants me to be if I am sincere in searching His will.

I do appreciate your presentation of your views. On Matt Slick - all I know is that I make mistakes too and I hope that doesn't make me a wolf in sheep's clothing although no doubt they exist because God's word states this. Fortunately, I know that God sees me through Christ's blood.

Have a nice evening - I think I'm going to check out of here for tonight.

[smyrna]

Wayfaring_stranger,

You wrote: "On Matt Slick - all I know is that I make mistakes too and I hope that doesn't make me a wolf in sheep's clothing..."

If I read you right, you think what Slick does is "a mistake." Well, at least you are moving in the right direction, but I have some stronger language to describe what Slick does.

That guy engages in premeditated attacks on the SC, and a host of other Churches he doesn't agree with. And that is his right. The problem is, he does not do so honestly.

If you read the question I have for Matt Slick on my website, you can tell where I am coming from with this.

For instance, I know for a fact that he has received email that proves his description of what the SC teaches is misleading, yet he does not correct the text on his site, as he himself said he would.
You know how he justifies it? He says it's not enough proof, or comes up with some ridiculous notions that any defense lawyer would appreciate.

Also, If you go to the thread here on Factnet titled 'Pastor Murray Gun Audio' you will see how he described an out and out invasion of the Chapel TV studio by some whack job who had to be physically removed as "a disagreeement in a teaching setting" on his website. Give me a break.

If he can be so blatantly misleading describing an incident like that, do you really think he is incapable of also making misleading statements about what the Chapel teaches?

The above is just the tip of the iceberg with that guy. No wonder his name is Slick. He sure lives by it.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">HI Smyrna,

Thank you for discussing what CARM puts forth for I really don't know much about them.

Hi Way,

Quote:
I do appreciate your presentation of your views. On Matt Slick - all I know is that I make mistakes too and I hope that doesn't make me a wolf in sheep's clothing although no doubt they exist because God's word states this. Fortunately, I know that God sees me through Christ's blood.

Oh Heck No!! I would never see you as a wolf in sheeps clothing! It's one thing to make mistakes, we all do it. It's another thing when someone purposely misleads or gives half truth and false misreprensentations.

But there is nothing wrong with making mistakes. That is being human. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif</font>

[wayfaring_stranger]

Well still, I don't see this like you guys do but I don't want to attack you personally.

I'm thinking - if you have an apple tree the fruit is an apple.

If you have a tree of life the fruit is life.

If you have a tree of the knowledge of good and evil - the tree is knowledge of good and evil.

The way I see this is that the serpent deceived Eve by presenting knowledge. I don't think being naked was so much the sin as the disobedience in how one discovered that they were naked, etc. I don't know how the serpent delivered this knowledge. Sex can be viewed as evil or good depending on the context and so can many other things. So I'm not convinced that the apron was covering the sin but just their nakedness. In fact if they were really covering their sin wouldn't they cover the area where knowledge is stored (the brain)?

I do appreciate the fact that you do see that symbolism exists in all of this.

Thanks Terluvire!

[kimberlyfredrick]

Heres how I see it.

The tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a reprenative of Satan who bears bad fruit. Adam and Eve already possesed the knowledge of good because they were pure and wholly good because they were sinless.

Satan tricked Eve into partaking of the fruit knowing that God had commanded not to eat.(if it feels good do it) She willfuly disobeyed God in persuit of her own desires to be like God.

Once she and Adam had sinned with Satan they became ashamed of what they had done to their tabernacle(their body) and tried to cover the sin and themselves hiding from God.

We cannot hide our sins from God anymore than we can atone for them alone.(thus, the shedding of blood from animals beginning with God clothing them in animal skins, and mankind using the blood of anuimals in sacrifices up to Christ, the second Adam,who could do what the first Adam could not, Atone for the sins of mankind, thus lifting the curse of death.)

One sin seperates us from God. Now no longer pure, Adam and Eve were expleled from God's presence, The Garden, which is a type of Heaven. As we see the same Garden in revelation 22 minus the 'Satan Tree".

In all honesty, being naked is not a sin against God. Or, at least in the beginning it certainly was not or Adam and Eve would have been clothed from the get-go. The fact that they covered their sex organs and nothing else speaks for itself.

Sinning against God does not make us want to clothe ourselves. There are plenty of tribal people today who rarely wear clothing, Calling them heathen has nothing to do with nakedness.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Teluvire,

I gave up on the link. I searched the site and could not find the topic I was looking for.

So.....back to the drawing board

[wayfaring_stranger]

Are you guys saying that in the link on CARM the gun thing is someone bringing a gun in?

It is hard to make out everything on the audio.

[smyrna]

W_S,

Go to the Pastor Murray Gun Audio thread, and you can read the story.

[wayfaring_stranger]

What I've read so far doesn't ease my concerns about that.