The 12 Tribes Scattered Abroad [Archive]

plow_deep

10-06-2006, 09:42 AM

I thought this might be a good place for those who find interest on this subject.

Contrary to popular beliefs that the lost tribes were assimilated into the Tribe of Judah by the traditions of mainstream Christianity, Ive discovered that this is not a Jewish belief.

According to the Talmud (Yebamot 17a) the LOST TEN TRIBES were legally classified as "Gentiles, for all extents and purposes". Even though they are destined to return, at the present time they have the status of non-Jews and that is how it was prophesied their status would be.

I have been checking out Jewish and Messanic sources for awhile now and I will start posting it here. Tonite I discovered this interesting tidbit above at the website of Yair Davidy an Orthodox Jew. He is not a Christian so take it with a grain of salt. I find it interesting research.

Yair Davidiy has proven that the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel are mainly to be found in specific areas. We do not claim that all residents in these places are descended from Israel. We do, however, affirm that most descendants of the Lost Ten Tribes are amongst the nations in question. On the whole they are unaware of their Israelite Identity. During the course of history, the Israelite origin of peoples in these areas have influenced national developments and characteristics. Descendants of Israel were also to be found elsewhere. The organization "Brit-Am" exists to promote the truths revealed in this work. "Brit-Am", in Hebrew, means 'a covenant [brit] of [am] the people' of Israel. The name involves a play on words: Isaiah twice refers to the Lost Ten Tribes as a 'Brit-Am' [covenant] of the People], see Isaiah 42:6 and Isaiah 49:9. In addition, "Brit-Am" is the same as early medieval forms of the name 'Britain'. It also hints at both Britain [Brit], and America [Am], and through the name 'Brit' [meaning covenant], also at Judah. "Brit-Am" has branches all over the world, especially in the USA. The center is in Jerusalem, the capitol of Israel.

This is the first part of a two-part talk concerning the Ten Lost Tribes in Prophecy. This is not intended to be a thorough discussion of the subject, but rather an Introduction that will highlight some important points that we all should be aware of. www.britam.org/tape1a.html (http://www.britam.org/tape1a.html)

godchild

10-06-2006, 03:52 PM

Yair Davidly. The name sounds Jewish, doesn't it? I did some research on him a long time ago. The name he uses is an alias, to make him sound more convincing. I suggest you research the man and his agenda. For one, he's not a Jew. Please don't take my word for it.

angie0401

10-06-2006, 04:30 PM

I did research him - thanks Vivian! - and this is all I could find. If you have something "bad" about him, please post it with a link to your findings:

Yair Davidiy is an Orthodox Jew, born in Australia, and now living in Jerusalem, Israel. He is the author of several books: "Biblical Truth", "Origin", "Joseph", "Ephraim", "Lost Israelite Identity", and "The Tribes". Mr. Davidiy is also the editor of "Brit-am Truth", a journal/magazine for the study and identification of the lost tribes of Israel. He is recognized world-wide as an authority in his field and has written his findings only after decades of investigation and research.

http://www.christianreality.com/Books/bs-bok134.htm

Part of this website's "mission statement":
The videos and books on our website are produced by organizations who we feel are more interested in spreading truth rather than promoting themselves and getting you to follow them. This is very important to us. We may not necessarily agree with every minute point that is made in their videos and books, but overall we find them to be very informative and with the right "heart."

http://www.christianreality.com/misc/aboutus.htm

godchild

10-06-2006, 06:07 PM

angie, I may have him confused with someone else. I will check it out again to be sure. Thank you!

arron

10-06-2006, 07:06 PM

i can assure you that the jews knows what tribe they are from and that there are no lost tribes as far as GOD is concerned HE knows where each of them are

angie0401

10-06-2006, 07:29 PM

Vivian,
That happens with similar names, but I sure couldn't find anything unsavory about him or his agenda. If you do find something, I sincerely hope you will post it with a link so that we can all review.
Like Pastor Murray says, every one of us needs to check things out for ourselves - never take any man's word without checking it out. Pretty good advice, wouldn't you say?

angie0401

10-06-2006, 07:51 PM

arron,
I agree - the Jewish people know which tribe they are from - the tribe of Judah (that's where the word "Jew" is derived from) and no one ever said that God didn't know where all of His people are. However, the Bible does speak of those who aren't aware of their true identity and it also tells of the tribes being taken into captivity and spread across the earth.

godchild

10-06-2006, 08:05 PM

angie, I'm surprised you didn't find more on Davidly. Since I posted my last response, I found a great deal. He is the person. The link you gave first gives your info about him as they are selling books and movies. Your second quote discusses all the books and movies they sell.

Let me share some of what I found. It will take a few posts.
to be cont.

godchild

10-06-2006, 08:14 PM

The first statement comes from the National Stormfront discussion board. It's an easy google. Let me explain. I completely understand that this is a neo-nazi website. There is a saying, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." In other words, I read all I can about the groups I post about. This is the only reason I go to these sites, as I believe they are unchristian and hatemongers.
Quote:
I find this so funny.
You guys miss the point that, while Yair Davidiy - who is a "British-Israelite" believing JEW - will claim that the British and some of the Europeans are parts of the 10 tribes. He will even claim that German is related to Hebrew - yet he teaches that the Germans are ASSYRIANS.
So, why would the "Assyrians" be speaking Hewbrew, rather than the Assyrian language? Since th British are in large part, descended from
Germans - inlcuding the Royal Family - wouldn't that make them Assyrians as well?
I say, that while some of the Israelites may have gone to live among the Europeans - not as "Jews", but may have even been accpted as Europeans (and have only known themselves as Europeans) that the bulk of Europeans are not, and never were from Israel.

CI is a bunch of bunk that was concocted by who believed the Bible, but didn't like jews.

I believed CI for years. I followed Arnold Murray for over 10 years. Even though he makes no claim at being Identity - and his church is completely integrated - it's full of non-whites.....just ask Bob Balaicius from Sacred Truth Ministries - his wife has been to Shepherd's Chapel functions in the past.)
I came into this movement via Bob Miles teachings, and then found men like Pastor Butler, Neumann Britton (who was supposedly friends with Arnold Murray about 30 years ago), and people of that nature. But I didn't get a good grasp of the material until I started studying Bob Balaicius' writings in the early 90's, and was watching Arnold Murray at the same time.
author,
Lebrume
----------------------------------
p.s. I have learned many rascists study under am/sc but many also do not like that he NOW includes other races at his yearly meeting. I did not delete/alter anything this person said.-gc

(Message edited by godchild on October 06, 2006)

godchild

10-06-2006, 08:21 PM

This I found very interesting. It is from Brit-Am, Yair Davidly's question and answer page at his site. This was his answer to a question sent him:
http://www.britam.org/khazars.html
<<The Physical Appearance of the Khazars.
Three different types of Khazar are described by Arab writers who apparently
through trade and diplomacy had had direct contact with them. The Arab
Geographer
Istakhri (Koestler p.20) said: "The Khazars do not resemble the Turks. They are
black-haired and of two kinds, one called the Kara [i.e. "Black"] - Khazars
who are
swarthy verging on deep black as if they were a kind of Hindu, and a white kind
[Ak-Khazars], who are strikingly handsome".
Note the above description says that both kinds of Khazars had black hair
though regarding countenance, etc. one was white and the other very dark.

Al Maghribi said: "As to the Khazars, they are to the north of the inhabited
earth towards the 7th clime, having over their heads the constellation of
the plough.
Their land is cold and wet, their eyes blue, their hair flowing and
predominantly
reddish, their bodies large and their natures cold. Their general aspect is
wild".
Al-Maghribi is here apparently speaking of another section of the Khazars
who lived
more to the north. These had "predominantly reddish" hair and blue eyes. It was
remarked above that the Khazar White Ugrians were described by the Chinese as
red-haired, pale-skinned, and green-eyed. The Alans who were closely
associated with
the Khazars were described by the Roman historian Ammianus Marcelinus as being
blonde-haired like all the Scythians according to him. Ammianus includes the
Agathysoi (Khazars) amongst the Alans. From the above it follows that different
Khazar and Khazar-linked groups were of different types.>>

The Khazars were not "a mongoloid Asiatic or turkic people". They did
however rule over many peoples and it may be that
some of their subjects were as described.
A recent Israeli documentary had a program on the Khazars. It depicted what
were apparently old Russian illustrations that showed the Khazars as a
red-haired people with blonde rulers (?).

As to your other questions in brief:
Ancient Israelites were of different types. Some were blond and red haired,
others were darkish. It may be that in some tribes certain types prevailed.
Later environmental influence and intermixture with surrounding peoples
would also have had an effect.
Lost Ten Tribes before their exile in my opinion had degenerated
religiously, were probably mainly illiterate, confused
mixture of Hebrew beliefs, popular superstition and paganism.
Author--Yair Davidly

godchild

10-06-2006, 08:42 PM

I am sharing the following to make people aware of who am's friends are/were:

Written by One People's Project
Friday, 12 March 2004
NAME:Neumann Britton
A/K/A:
HOME BASE:Escondido, Calif.
RELATED ITEMS:

Britton was the National Chaplain for the Church of Jesus Christ Christian/Aryan Nations. He was named as the heir to Dick Butler'sAryan Nations in 1998, although we don't know what that means now that the group has been pretty much shut down thanks to the September, 2000 lawsuit won by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Neither did he apparently. "Unless there are people who come forward with resources," said the 74-year-old, "I don?t think there will be much to turn over to me." Many had assumed that former Klansman Louis Beam would take control, but he has reportedly been ill.

Britton was national chaplain for Butler's church and has shown loyalty to him when others havent. He was once a member of the American Nazi Party, a comrade of Butler's mentor Wesly Swift, and a key ideolouge of Christian Idenity.According to the Aryan Nations website, Britton took part in "several race riots" in the sixties, noting he and his brother Ruffus, along with J.B. Stoner's National States Rights Party, worked to try and quell intergration activities back then. Reportedly on the night of June 25, 1964, Britton along with Connie Lynch, engineered an riot in St. Augustine, Florida when Martin Luther King Jr. rallied for blacks to come to the newly integrated beaches. After the riot, Lynch stated, "We spoke for white people. The white people rallied behind it and we kicked the living hell out of the •••••••, sent the out-of-town ••••••• back to their home towns where they ought to have been, and the ••••••• of St. Augustine got quiet and went back over to niggertown where they belong." Of course they couldn't have been too effective. There is a street named after Martin Luther King, Jr. in St. Augustine.
to be cont.

godchild

10-06-2006, 08:48 PM

cont.
Britton was also tied into the anti-semetic group Posse Comitatus and was once married to the widow of Gordon Kahl who killed two US marshalls in North Dakota in 1983 before getting killed himself in a infamous standoff with authorities.

On Saturday August 18, 2001 at 6:30 am, Satan called Neuman home and he died in San Diego, California at the age of 74. That's 74 years too long.
Aryan Nations in 1998, although we don't know what that means now that the group has been pretty much shut down thanks to the September, 2000 lawsuit won by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Neither did he apparently. "Unless there are people who come forward with resources," said the 74-year-old, "I don?t think there will be much to turn over to me." Many had assumed that former Klansman Louis Beam would take control, but he has reportedly been ill. Britton was national chaplain for Butler's church and has shown loyalty to him when others havent. He was once a member of the American Nazi Party, a comrade of Butler's mentor Wesly Swift, and a key ideolouge of Christian Idenity.According to the Aryan Nations website, Britton took part in "several race riots" in the sixties, noting he and his brother Ruffus, along with J.B. Stoner's National States Rights Party, worked to try and quell intergration activities back then. Reportedly on the night of June 25, 1964, Britton along with Connie Lynch, engineered an riot in St. Augustine, Florida when Martin Luther King Jr. rallied for blacks to come to the newly integrated beaches. After the riot, Lynch stated, "We spoke for white people.
to be cont.

godchild

10-06-2006, 08:51 PM

cont.
The white people rallied behind it and we kicked the living hell out of the •••••••, sent the out-of-town ••••••• back to their home towns where they ought to have been, and the ••••••• of St. Augustine got quiet and went back over to niggertown where they belong." Of course they couldn't have been too effective. There is a street named after Martin Luther King, Jr. in St. Augustine. Britton was also tied into the anti-semetic group Posse Comitatus and was once married to the widow of Gordon Kahl who killed two US marshalls in North Dakota in 1983 before getting killed himself in a infamous standoff with authorities. On Saturday August 18, 2001 at 6:30 am, Satan called Neuman home and he died in San Diego, California at the age of 74. That's 74 years too long.
-------------------
Please note Bultler's mentor (see above) Wesley Swift was trentwoodard's (alias John p.c. among others) mentor also.

angie0401

10-06-2006, 08:55 PM

I'm sorry, Vivian, I don't see what your point is about the character and/or agenda of this man based on anything you have posted. Again, you take quotes from a group (neo-Nazi) that NO ONE on here would even break bread with and try to use it to prove some negative point about Pastor Murray.

You just can't help yourself, can you? The hate for Pastor Murray runs so deep in you that you cannot see anything else. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and again, you show your true colors. Really, really sad...

angie0401

10-06-2006, 09:25 PM

Vivian,
I also find it EXTREMELY interesting that you cut the last part of the post that you quoted in your post #3881. Here is the rest of it:

I believe that I was misled by these men, just as THEY were misled before me. It was a case of the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

I believe that The bible is a distorted historical work, and nothing more.
The Jews stole half the Old Testament from the Babylonian histories, which were taken from the Sumerian scrolls dealing with the Annunaki Gods, and the Epic of Gilgamesh.

If you want a different perspective on this.

I would strongly suggest you look into the books by Sir Laurence Gardner.

I read these books, and about all of the pieces fit together. Everything.

These books are one of the reasons that I do NOT believe that most of the Modern "Jews" are actually from Judah. I think they are Khazars, while a small part of them are actually New Testament Jews.
__________________

For Folk & Faith,
LeBrune
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=139345&page=3

Why did you intentionally cut this out? It was only a few more sentences that would have given the reader a little more insight as to this poster's mentality (ex. - "I believe that The bible is a distorted historical work, and nothing more.")

godchild

10-06-2006, 10:13 PM

The point I was making was not about the author of the post, but about his knowledge of am and his friends. I saw no reason for including the rest of his post. It wasn't about Yair Davidly or am and his connections to neo-nazi rascists. Yair Davidly is not a Christian. Will you reject everything he says because of this? Of course not.

Hate is a part of your vocabulary, not mine. I wasn't looking for this further info on am, but since these threads are about am/sc, it was perfectly proper for me to include them. You can defend him all you want, but I still consider him a false teacher. That has nothing to do with hate. I hate the sin, not the sinner.

I consider it intentional exclusion by you to conveniently post one link (a positive one) about Davidly. There are numerous links to him. I can make these accusations against you, and you have no way to disprove them, and yet you think it is fair to accuse me. I'm afraid you are one of the blind, led by the blind, a sign of brainwashing. I am very sorry for you.

I can assure you, I have previously read neo-nazi threads where they follow am. "lying with dogs" comes to mind. You can disagree, but I have every right to expose this man and his teachings. I cannot help if you take it personally. That doesn't change the facts.

If am confessed and repented of his past, therefore rejecting these beliefs, he would be forgiven, by God and by men. He hasn't, he in fact makes every effort to hide it. As you quote him, "Search for yourself." Don't YOU agree? I know there are millions of men who can recite from the Holy Bible. His effect on you is akin to idol-worship. He is not important, but his false doctrines are against God. You know you will deny everything against him, so you would feel better not reading my posts in the future.

plow_deep

10-06-2006, 10:42 PM

Hello Folks,

Godchild:
"Yair Davidly. The name sounds Jewish, doesn't it? I did some research on him a long time ago. The name he uses is an alias, to make him sound more convincing. I suggest you research the man and his agenda. For one, he's not a Jew. Please don't take my word for it."

Angie counters:
"I did research him - thanks Vivian! - and this is all I could find. If you have something "bad" about him, please post it with a link to your findings:"

"Yair Davidiy is an Orthodox Jew, born in Australia, and now living in Jerusalem, Israel. He is the author of several books: "Biblical Truth", "Origin", "Joseph", "Ephraim", "Lost Israelite Identity", and "The Tribes". Mr. Davidiy is also the editor of "Brit-am Truth", a journal/magazine for the study and identification of the lost tribes of Israel. He is recognized world-wide as an authority in his field and has written his findings only after decades of investigation and research."

http://www.christianreality.com/Books/bs-bok134.htm

Part of this website's "mission statement":
"The videos and books on our website are produced by organizations who we feel are more interested in spreading truth rather than promoting themselves and getting you to follow them. This is very important to us. We may not necessarily agree with every minute point that is made in their videos and books, but overall we find them to be very informative and with the right "heart."

http://www.christianreality.com/misc/aboutus.htm

Okay, Good job! We now know:
Yair Davidy is indeed an Orthodox Jew who has done extensive research on the Lost tribes for several decades. He is all about tracking down the truth of Gods Word about the whereabouts of the tribes in todays timeframe.

Once again the reason for his study is:

The LOST TEN TRIBES were legally classified as "Gentiles, for all extents and purposes". Even though they are destined to return, at the present time they have the status of non-Jews and that is how it was prophesied their status would be.

Which of course if we as Christians, ask for guidance of our Father and study our own bible, we can discover this truth for ourselves.

Good catch on Godchilds post from the hate site!

Nice job Angie! I too, wonder why Godchild would leave off the last few sentences of that post?

Maybe it was an honest mistake.

Peace

angie0401

10-06-2006, 10:46 PM

----------------------------------
p.s. I have learned many rascists study under am/sc but many also do not like that he NOW includes other races at his yearly meeting. I did not delete/alter anything this person said.-gc 

Can you show where Pastor Murray ever excluded any race from the fellowship gatherings (which aren't just "yearly meetings")? Just more insinuations and attempts at guilt by association?

And one more thing - there are racists that study with EVERY SINGLE RELIGION (and no religion) on the face of this earth, but that is not a reflection of those they study with.

plow_deep

10-06-2006, 10:51 PM

Oops! you slipped an answer in there already.

So you left the part out where the nazi writes he quit following Pastor Murray BECAUSE Murray wasnt a racist Jew-hater like the nazi was looking to follow.

Okay

plow_deep

10-06-2006, 10:55 PM

"Can you show where Pastor Murray ever excluded any race from the fellowship gatherings (which aren't just "yearly meetings")?"

Another good question.

angie0401

10-06-2006, 11:04 PM

Vivian
Here is the google search I did:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Yair+Davidiy&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N (http://www.google.com/search?q=Yair+Davidiy&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N)

and you can see that all of the links on that first page were basically the same as what I posted. I posted what I felt was a reputable site - not a blog or opinion or Yair Davidiy's personal site. At least I do post links so that anyone who cares to can see for themselves the source I am using. I think it makes one more credible, don't you?

You are free to accuse me of whatever you like, but it won't make it true. I worship no one but my Holy Father and my savior, Jesus the Christ.

By the way, this particular thread was NOT intended to be about Pastor Murray. You are very fixated on him for someone reason that I have yet to figure out.

plow_deep

10-06-2006, 11:23 PM

Oops! Godchild you slipped your last answer back out...

godchild

10-07-2006, 12:11 AM

plow, to your comment, "So you left the part out where the nazi writes he quit following Pastor Murray BECAUSE Murray wasnt a racist Jew-hater like the nazi was looking to follow."

Why would I put something in here the person didn't say? You might see that in his statement, but that's not what he said. What are you talking about, saying I slipped my last answer back out?

to angie, Fixated on am? While the topic title isn't am/sc, the thread certainly is. Please don't try to confuse the issue. By placing the topic on a am/sc thread, it's obvious plow hopes to find interest in his info., which of course he will with scers by placing it here. That's his right, of course, but its also my right to post info I have found. You should talk to him about placing that topic on an am/sc thread if you have a problem with it. I certainly didn't bring it up.

I could look through my files for the answer to your question, but you would ignore it. There's nothing that would convince you that am is not all you've cracked him up to be; more's the pity for you. I say that in all sincerity. I'll take it to the thread on am/sc at cultbusters, though, in case you're interested. I'm afraid you're looking for another fight, but I have no interest in that. My time is too precious to waste it in that way. The Lord would not be pleased.

angie0401

10-07-2006, 12:31 AM

You're wrong, Vivian, I would love to see your proof of any time Pastor Murray has excluded any race from the fellowships. I'm asking you nicely to please take the time to find it in your files and post it. As you are well aware, taking it to the am/sc thread at cultbusters won't do me any good - last time I checked my account had been suspended, so I can't rightly check it now, can I?

Why would I have a problem with the thread plow started? I found it very interesting and informative, as all of his posts are. It's your desire to distract and sew discord that I find offensive.

I'm not looking for a fight, but I'm also not about to roll over and let you accuse me of things like idol-worship. As for if the Lord is pleased with what you do, that is between you & Him.

godchild

10-07-2006, 12:52 AM

A light went off in my head a moment ago so I came back with this suggestion. You watch am, right? He has a question and answer time, correct? Why don't you call in or write and ask him if he ever excluded races other than white from his meetings. Ask him where he got his doctorate, and if he ever called himself Dr. There are lots of questions you could ask and settle all this in your own mind. Then you can come back and show all of us we are wrong, if we are.

While you're at it, ask him if he doesn't believe the 'Lost Books' including the book of Enoch and the other lost books are really God's teachings (and responded to the question, "ABSOLUTELY UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT! They are not in the Massorah, and are not backed up"), and he claims as you all do that he teaches "chapter and verse" from the Bible, why he teaches from these books?

arron

10-07-2006, 12:58 AM

i highly doubt that am or dm would answer that one

david_munson

10-07-2006, 01:26 AM

The only way to be certain is to ask it.
Either they will or they will not.

}

angie0401

10-07-2006, 01:58 AM

I've nothing to "settle in my mind". Why should I try to prove or disprove any crazy accusations you come up with? That is just ridiculous. I have no doubts about Pastor Murray, his calling and his heart. I do listen to Pastor Murray and have heard his take on the Book of Enoch and the races. Do I agree 100% with every single thing he ever says? Of course not! But do I think he is a fine, called man of God? You betch your little red bonnet.

angie0401

10-07-2006, 02:15 AM

plow,
Thanks for the info. It sounds like some really interesting research - can you post more when you get time?

terluvire

10-07-2006, 05:09 AM

HI Plow and Angie, thanks Plow for posting that link. I've had it for quite awhile though I have not read through the whole site.

I see godchild that you are up to your old tricks again. Gee, any discussion of the scattered, lost tribes, you turn it into racism...lol Unbelievable. I guess God is a racist for he caused the scattering. So, you either believe God's word or you don't. It's that simple.

Now back on topic, I also found a few pages with the Scottish Declaration of Independence. Please note, I did not check out the entire site, I was only concerned with the Scottish document called "The Declaration of Arbroath 1320". I've heard alot about it. I find it an interesting read. Again, before godchild says anything, I haven't read through the entire sites, I was only concerned with the Scotts Declaration of Independence.

http://www.british-israel.ca/Scottish.htm

http://jahtruth.net/scotdec.htm

kimberlyfredrick

10-07-2006, 05:43 PM

I have posted this link once before. I found it very helpful in my initial studies on this subject. I remember studying Genesis. Around the 44 chapter, I think.

Anyway, I was wondering if maybe America fit in there somehow. It sure did seem plausible and would just further prove how awesome God's word was. Then, this booklet arrived in the mail later that day. I had requested it but had forgotten all about it. Well, I was totally convinced before I went to bed that night.

I remember how good it felt knowing how I and my Country had a place in God's word. The booklet is entitled, "America and Brittian in Prophecy." It describes just who Ephraim and Mannasseah(mispelled) are in present times. later I heard PM speak on this same subject. I knew God had me in the right place for his word.

At the website, click blooklets and scroll down to "America and Great Brittian in prophecy".

www.tomorrowsworld.org (http://www.tomorrowsworld.org).

terluvire

10-07-2006, 06:20 PM

Good Afternoon everyone,

I have found another very interesting site:
http://asis.com/~stag/losttrib.html

There is a word of caution at this site and it states,
Quote:
Caution:
Satan enters in to ALL God's Truth to turn us aside. Some fearful ones have succumbed to the Tempter and taken this information to it's worst possible end; White Supremacy. They become The Elite Chosen People of God. Rubbish! ! ! Beware. The Lost Tribes teaching is supposed to end in glorifying GOD, not man.

I couldn't have said it better! The truth of the lost tribes of Israel is not racist though some groups turn it into that. It seems that some here have allowed satan to blind them to certain truths because of the tactics he uses. They would rather trust satan's deceptive ways and call it racism than to follow God's truth. It really is sad.

arron

10-07-2006, 09:24 PM

terluvire.........the preaching of the isssrealite (england and the us ) nations are racist. they exclude everone else. does am have blacks attending his church what if one wanted to join?

plow_deep

10-07-2006, 09:51 PM

"I see godchild that you are up to your old tricks again. Gee, any discussion of the scattered, lost tribes, you turn it into racism..."

There is the plain simple truth of the matter.

That answers the reasons for posting JUNK from the hate sites.

In Godchilds mind, anyone who searchs for a better understanding of God's promises to the children of Abraham and studies the migrations of the tribes just has to be a bad person.

Clearly she is innately predjudiced, and in self-denial of the fact.

I found the information in Godchilds post #3884 quite interesting, so I followed the link she provided to learn what the original question to Yair Davidy was.

I had to hunt around (thanks it was interesting!) due to her incorrect link. Heres the correct one.
http://britam.org/now/now173.html

Heres the question AND the part of Yair Davidy's answer she left out.

6. Question on Khazars and race
From: Pablo Balan
Subject: one question for Mr.Davidly
Dear Mr. Davidly:
I'll ask you only one question:
Weren't the Khazars a mongoloid Asiatic or turkic people?Because this is
the most accepted theory about the subjet.How do you exactly argue the
Israelite origin of the European peoples?Do you mean that
Israelites(semites) were blond and blue-eyed?
And do you mean that the los tribes practiced a primitive religion
(paganism) an that they dressed in a primitive way?
I'll wait for your answer.
Sincerelly yours...
Pablo E. Balan

Answer: The sister of my father died in Japanese captivity. {other members
of my family were killed by the Germans]. I however have had Japanese
acquaintances and we got on well.
Even so, I am innately prejudiced and they admitted that so were they. This
is human nature.
see
http://www.britam.org/khazars.html
<<The Physical Appearance of the Khazars...

Wow! Right on Mr. Davidy! Anybody that can look within themselves and admit this fact is a good person in my opinion.

I was an army brat who grew up living mostly in housing complexes on military installations. My elementary school years, grades 1 thru 5, we lived at a NATO training school in Oberammergau, West Germany. One of the most beautiful places I ever lived. I was never influenced by TV as a child (Thank you Lord!), so I missed all the racial unrest, and even the war protesting going on back in the states.

cont,

plow_deep

10-07-2006, 09:54 PM

cont,

I cant speak for the larger military installations, but from my own experiences, I never had racial hate instilled into me as a child, and I never saw it in any of the children I grew up with, which were from all races and ethnic backgrounds. I learned later on in life from my parents (who never taught us to hate) in discussions on how different things were between army and civilian life were, and that the military at that time, didnt put up with any racial garbage and any family that showed signs of racial predjudices quickly lost housing privileges and lived off post.

The predjudices I learned in Germany were not racial, It was American kids (big minority) verses German kids. The housing for NCO's and Officers in Oberammergau were spread out in little groups in various parts of the town. I cant tell you how many times walking down the cowpath from school to home, I was harassed if caught by the German kids...quite an experience that all of us American kids went thru. It was a constant challenge to avoid being caught alone, or outnumbered, We American kids stuck with our own kind, and never for a second was there time to develop any racial prejudices. We were the few, the proud, the American kids. One for all and all for one! We protected our own against the Nazi kid bullies. Yes, it was a cruel insult to sling at the German kids. They called us mongrels and savages, and thought they were the master race, and we called them loser Nazi's. Kids can be cruel. Once, my Dad came upon 2 groups of us kids yelling insults at each other, He dragged me home, and lit my bottom on fire! I never slung the "Nazi" term at those German kids ever again. I might have thought those kids were some mean ol Nazi's, but I wasnt gonna say it anymore.

My parents also took us to see the Dachau concentration camp during one of our family vacations. The most striking thing about it for me, was the long billboard in the center of the camp with hundreds of the most horrific photographs I have ever seen. It was quite a shock for a kid my age. Who could believe that a fellow human would do such experiments on another human. Ive seen alot of graphic holocaust photo's since then, but Ive never seen anything like what I saw posted on that billboard that even comes close anywhere else. Anybody that has seen the billboard, can verify what I say.

So as a kid, I developed quite a predjudice for anyone that takes pride in being a Nazi or spews some master race garbage. If you talked that crap around me, chances were that a fight was gonna happen. Ive grown much since then, and I know there are many different Germans, some good, some bad, I still have to fight that natural attitude hate today that was instilled in me from my experiences.

I'd like to take some of these really dumb skin-heads Ive met in my travels thru life here in America...I'd take them by the ear, and fly them over to germany, to Dachau. Make them take a good look at that billboard, and expose their ignorance, and shame.

My 1st experiences with racial hatred came with my 1st year in Highschool, which was also my 1st year in a civilian school, which was in South Georgia.

What a culture shock that was!

cont,

plow_deep

10-07-2006, 09:56 PM

cont,

Not only was I an outsider for being an armybrat, but to top it all off, I was in the deep south, and all the white civilian kids hated me for being an armybrat, and all the black civilian kids hated me for being white and an armybrat.

There was only one other armybrat in the highschool, who had went to the army middle school with me. He was black. At first we tried to hang together, and neither the whites, nor the blacks were gonna allow for that to happen. We silently went are separate ways, and tried to find a spot to fit in. I never did.

I skipped most of the year, lunchtime was the worst. It only took a couple of times of visiting the cafeteria, to gladly skip food at lunchtime. I hung out in the assigned smoking area, which was two breezeways that connected the school to the gym. Whites on 1 side, blacks on the other, a couple small reject groups (self-segregated for safty) that hung out in the middle.

After getting attacked by blacks who hated me for being white and freely attacked me at whim, due to me being an outcast by the whites, I developed a natural predjudice towards civilian black kids.

I knew from experience that all black kids didnt automatically hate me...but these southern civilian black kids sure did, and I hadnt done a darn thing to warrant such behavior.

To this day, when I see a black man in a military uniform, I naturally greet him with no reservations. When I 1st meet a black man in civilian clothes, I hold myself in reserve and meet his eyes first, to try to judge wether he means me harm, before I can relax into comfortable, casual conversation.

Is it right for me to take 2 different attitudes with the black men I described above? No!!!
I am innately prejudiced, due to lifes experiences, and I have to remind myself of this on a regular basis.

I realise that all people suffer from some type of predjudices due to experiences in life.

Some people look at themselves and work on it, and some dont.

Thanks Godchild, you have inadvertly allowed me to be even more open to Yair Davidy's research.

Here's a quote from that fine gentlemans website I really liked too!

"God bless you, O Seekers of the Truth, Yair Davidiy"

Oh yeah! For you folks that try to follow food laws, I ran across this tidbit about Scottish and Celtic food practices called "The Food Taboos of Old Scotland" www.britam.org/foodtaboos.html (http://www.britam.org/foodtaboos.html)

In Scotland an aversion to the pig is deep rooted even now and was much stronger in the past. This aversion exists amongst both Highlanders and Lowlanders.
"There are still thousands of Highlanders and groups of Lowlanders who refuse to keep pigs or to partake of their flesh".

Its really interesting for those of you that dont eat pig.

For those of you that do eat pig, dont mind me "Smokey", I wont judge you for it.

Peace

angie0401

10-08-2006, 03:45 AM

QUOTE:
terluvire.........the preaching of the isssrealite (england and the us ) nations are racist. they exclude everone else. does am have blacks attending his church what if one wanted to join?

Yes, arron there are people of all races who study with and attend Shepherd's Chapel. I saw far less "white" people than those of other races when I attended Passover in April.

There is nothing racist about who the lost tribes are. No one is excluded, but on the contrary everyone - all of those who have lost their true identity - are included. To claim that the nation of Israel of today is the entire house of Israel is racist and goes against the Word of God. Are they so numerous they can't be counted? Do many other nations depend on them? Have they always controlled their gates? Of course not! They are our brother Judah & Benjamin (and some of the Levites) and we love our brethren. Just like Joseph, some of us were taken from home and grew up not knowing who we are. What makes that racist?

I've no idea where you get these notions from, arron.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

plow_deep

10-08-2006, 06:14 AM

"I have found another very interesting site:"
http://asis.com/~stag/losttrib.html

Thanks Terluvire, that is where I got my saved info from that I posted in Godchilds lost tribe thread awhile back, but I couldnt find the site again.

Angie,
Awhile back you pointed out to me how Balaam was using Dachua as an insult, I didnt respond (anger management). I dont like it when people (Balaam) belittle what went on there by slinging it around in such a manner. I wasnt being rude in my non-response. I just didnt know how to respond at the time.

Due to Godchild trying to plant a seed of hate in me, by her efforts to make comparisons of me, with her insinuating posts of hate site garbage. I went ahead and shared a little of my background.

I dont think it will do any good with her, but it sure makes me feel better.

I was tired of posting earlier, and now that Ive gone back and read what Ive posted. I left much out. Please be aware, I have grown much since then. The info in the posts above is pretty much a description from childhood to early 30's.

I wont even go into the problems I had with the self-rightous Christian types. This long haired hippie type leather clad biker did not brown-nose, and ran circles around those kind at every bluecollar job I ever had. When you stick out like a sore thumb, you gotta out perform those around you.

I did work with some actual Christians, and enjoyed their company. You could always tell the difference by the example of the honest hard work, and the non-judgemental attitude of peace.

The self-rightous christian types were always slack workers, and spent time huddled in gossip groups, and were quick to run to the boss with false accusations.

Now that Ive finally discovered the Lord Jesus in the last few years. I see things are pretty much the same as my little bit of contact with Christians in my past work environment

The same slackers dont make an effort to study the Word, spend time huddled in gossip groups, and run to the Boss with false accusations. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Some things never change.

Peace

david_munson

10-08-2006, 02:27 PM

Didn't the Lord say that He would scatter the Israelites throughout the "nations?"

This would imply that they dwell among most all the nations though the nations (like America and England) are not made up from the lost tribes.

Strangers in a strange land but not making up the majority of the inhabitants.

It really is mostly speculation where and who they consist of.Thus the term "lost tribes."
Lost to our knowing but not to God's.

We'll soon see what God is going to do with Israel in these times we're in.
I really don't think it will be that long.

Give God the Glory,
Dave
}

kimberlyfredrick

10-08-2006, 05:59 PM

Well, God did scatter them and they remeained departed from Isreal. Remember, America is a very young Country which is nearly comepletly made up of people from all over the world.

A good study of 'proof' who America and Great Brittian really are is in the booklet I posted the other day. It goes into the promise God gave on the 2 sons that their desendants would become 2 great Nations holding the 'gates' of wealth.

The USA and GB became wealthy through God's promise and they were blessedd with earning their wealth and power through obtaining the 'sea gates'.

The booklet is very informative. Good history lesson in there too. I hope this helps.

plow_deep

10-08-2006, 09:51 PM

Dave,

Didn't the Lord say that He would scatter the Israelites throughout the "nations?"

I agree.

This would imply that they dwell among most all the nations though the nations (like America and England) are not made up from the lost tribes.

I can agree with some of what you say, but not all of it. God made some unconditional promises to the children of Israel

Strangers in a strange land but not making up the majority of the inhabitants.

Once again, I can agree with part of what you say.
Most definitely the tribes scattered out into the whole world. But with a little study and a look at todays world. We can speculate where the bulk of the tribes are today.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

I'm a Christian 1st and foremost. I follow the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe we as Christians, are
the sons of the Living God.

Ive read many studies by people on the lost tribes. They are a dime a dozen. Many point to almost any other country in the world that Christianity hasnt taken a firm root in.

It really is mostly speculation where and who they consist of.Thus the term "lost tribes."
Lost to our knowing but not to God's.

Yes! Lost to our understanding...for a time.
God never loses anything. I believe God's Word is there in my bible and with His guidance in my study efforts, He will reveal much of what is lost to me, if it is His will.

I wont let legalists, fundalmentalists, political religionists, evangelists, denominationalists, non-denominationalists, atheists, satanists, sadists, socialists, communists, racists, racialists, if-you-feel-left-out-feel-
free-to-add-yourself-to-the-list-ists, naysayers, the righteous, non-righteous or the self-righteous, to stand in my way.

Thats what I like about Yair Davidy, if you read the critic page, you'll find he is attacked from all sides, Christian and Jew. Everybody accuses him of some kinda agenda against them.

He doesnt care and keeps searching for truth.
Though he practices Judaism and I practice Christianity. I cant help but believe he will find the truth of Jesus one day.

Here's a snall part of a study Ive saved on some of the Unconditional promises of God.

I share it for those that share an interest.
(Its been condensed and edited for space saving)

Manasseh and Ephraim

Gen 41:51 And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.

Gen 41:52 And the name of the second called he Ephraim: for God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

Gen 48:1 And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold, thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

Gen 48:2 And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh to thee: and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed.

Gen 48:3 And Jacob said to Joseph, God Almighty appeared to me at Luz, in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

cont

plow_deep

10-08-2006, 09:55 PM

cont

Gen 48:4 And said to me, Behold I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee, for an everlasting possession.

Gen 48:5 And now, thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born to thee in the land of Egypt, before I came to thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

Gen 48:6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.

Jacob/Israel about to bless Joseph’s sons:

Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath fed me all my life long to this day,

Gen 48:16 The angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac: and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he lifted his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.

Gen 48:18 And Joseph said to his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head.

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Gen 48:21 And Israel said to Joseph, Behold, I die; but God shall be with you, and bring you again to the land of your fathers.

Gen 48:22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

Promise 10.…I give them my name, said Israel. (Saxons? Khumri? ) Promise 11 The younger, Ephraim, to become a Multitude of Nations (Commonwealth Promise) 12 Manasseh to become great also.

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called to his sons, and said, Assemble yourselves, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

cont

plow_deep

10-08-2006, 10:05 PM

cont

"We'll soon see what God is going to do with Israel in these times we're in.
I really don't think it will be that long."

Reuben: Remember Reuben sleeping with his father’s concubine?

Gen 49:3 Reuben, thou art my first-born, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellence of dignity, and the excellence of power:

Gen 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it; he went up to my couch.

thou shalt...: Heb. do not thou excel he went...: or, my couch is gone (The British have a saying, when a person is worthless and evil. They say, “He’s as weak as water.” Interesting, huh?

Gen 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren: instruments of cruelty are in, their habitations.

Simeon and Levi: remember these two and their making the men of the Hivites get circumcised ? Then wiping them out ;the whole bunch, for the honor of sister Dinah?

Gen 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce: and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Blessings of Judah:
Judah: Just think, he could have lost his birthright if it had not been for Tamar.

Gen 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise; thy hand shall be on the neck of thy enemies: thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp; from the prey, my son, thou hast gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion: who shall rouse him up?

Gen 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh shall come: and to him shall be the gathering of the people.

Gen 49:11 Binding his foal to the vine, and his ••••• colt to the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

Judah will always have the scepter , law between his feet, a gathering of the people. When we get to the Davidic Covenant, we will see that a throne is involved. No time to go into the “foal and the ••••• colt” but all should be reminded of Christ sending two disciples for these animals; be also reminded

about John, writing in Revelation, a washing of garments soaked in the “Blood of The Lamb”. What country or should I say, Commonwealth , uses the Lion in their ensigns and crests ? Also, thy brothers bowing down before Judah has a double meaning. Christ comes through this linage and Yes! All knees

shall bow at HIS second advent…amen!

cont

plow_deep

10-08-2006, 10:09 PM

cont

Gen 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for a haven of ships; and his border shall be to Zidon.

E.R. Capt thinks these people are in Norway…Note Sea, Ships…..and the Zyderzee River…

Gen 49:14 Issachar is a strong •••, couching down between two burdens:

Gen 49:15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant to tribute.

Who has become couched between two warring nations in our last 100 years. Who or what country

does not involve themselves in major wars but is caretaker of the money/tribute of many nations?

Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse-heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

an adder: Heb. an arrow-D’niber River, Danube River……wherever Dan goes, his progeny will leave their mark. Those that walk a path in peace, must be careful of the bite of Dan. Dan is quick to judge. He’s a fierce warrior in battle. Think of any country or many nations here? Germany, hmmm… or the Danes who were called Vikings?

Gen 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation O LORD.

Gen 49:19 Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.

Elijah came out of the tribe of Gad; and did not taste

death!

Gen 49:20 Out of Asher his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.

?

cont

plow_deep

10-08-2006, 10:11 PM

cont

Gen 49:21 Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words.

Great orators; playing and kicking up his heels, huh?

Gen 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

branches: Heb. daughters

Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob: from thence is the shepherd the stone of Israel:

Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee, and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth beneath, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills; they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Just look at the Everlasting Promises to Joseph! This blessing took precedence over the promises made to Jacob’ s fathers. His strength will not be overcome by his foes. He will live in a fruitful place; the rain and sun above, and riches below the earth. The seas will give him her bounty. AND Joseph will get the “Shepherd’s Stone” of Israel ! Did he get a double portion or what!

Gen 49:27 Benjamin shall raven as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

Don’t mess with Benjamin’s bunch ! Some of the mighty warriors for CHRIST were Benjamin’s progeny. Saul/Paul for one. Basically, Benjaminites have stayed with Judah and Levi until today.

Gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said to her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those who hate them.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living animal that moveth upon the earth.

terluvire

10-09-2006, 02:50 AM

Arron said:
terluvire.........the preaching of the isssrealite (england and the us ) nations are racist. they exclude everone else. does am have blacks attending his church what if one wanted to join?

Arron, Angie answered your question very well. Thanks Angie.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

So arron, where do you think the lost tribes are? And does where you think they are make you a racist? I just don't see how following the migrations and blessing of the tribes would be considered racist.

As far as who attends the Shepherd's Chapel, Angie got it right! Thanks again Angie.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

terluvire

10-09-2006, 02:54 AM

Plow,

I greatly enjoyed your study. Thanks!

You've really done your homework! To do this study, or any of your studies on your own is awesome. I am amazed at how much God has blessed your studies, for you do not study with anyone except with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Well done Plow!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

plow_deep

10-09-2006, 05:11 AM

Terluvire,

I'm sorry, I didnt mean to mislead you.
This study is not mine, it is just one Ive saved, much like (from the asis.com site) in the other lost tribe thread. Thanks again for the link, I had lost my way back there. When I clicked on it I immediately recognised the page layout. I cant remember the guys name but I do remember from (a couple of years ago) reading on the site he is a student of Gene Scott. Scott was the 1st person to perk my interest, I was camping on my nephews land 2 summers ago listening to a shortwave radio, when I ran across him teaching on the Lost tribes. I stayed up all nite over 6 hrs, before the station faded away. When I came back home I started searching the internet for info and thats how I ended up finding these threads. I learned the meat of what I know from Gene Scott and students, Arthur Murray and students, Yair Davidy, and a host of others.

Theres lots of Hebrew roots sites with tribes info, but most (not all) are so anti-Christian that I have a hard time getting anything useful out of them. The same is true for most Judaism sites Ive found with the info I seek.

These days If I run into hate on a site, I just end up moving on. Theres enough good sites out there to search through without having to put up with hate.

I have learned much from other people, and from my comparisons to scripture, I do believe I'm led to discover their works by our Father. No doubts.

I can now sit down with someone and open a bible and point to the evidences of the tribes promises and migrations, I can now answer all questions about issues with Christ's lineage, and flip thru to the proper scripture in Numbers to back my claims. I'm constantly trying to improve my abilities to show all the vast proof of the Deity of Jesus to the nutty JW types out there.

Those are three important areas I really enjoy working on.

It mostly comes from checking out others groundwork.

I dont hardly watch or listen to anything. I truly love to read though, and Ive been that way my whole life.

Thanks to technology, I can save all these works by these folks, and take their work and mix it together, add scriptures I find that fit, and meld it into something of my own.

Please dont praise me. For the meat of what I posted and probably will post in the future, is mainly work from others.

Peace

terluvire

10-09-2006, 06:33 AM

HI Plow,

Thanks for your honesty. But I will still say that I admire your homework. You really do a good job.

Yes, I know there are alot of crud sites out there to wade through. But it is worth the effort. I wish godchild would pass right by the crud instead of posting links to those awful sites. But at times, she unwittingly does post some good links...lol

The whole time growing up I have heard ideas, opinions, and teachings on the lost tribes. I hope godchild and others realize that PM is not the first to speak of America, Great Britian, and many other countries as being part of Israel. That subject has always perked my interest. Being online is a great way to do more research. I wish I was online years ago. I've only been online for about 2 years. But within these past two years I have more knowledge of the Scythians, Gomier, and the other names the 10 tribes were called. Traditions of Glasdenbury (sp?) is a good study. They even aired it on the History Channel and Discovery Channel. I love to read anything which gives me a better understanding of our Father's word. And I love it when history and archeology prove God's word to be true!!

terluvire

10-09-2006, 06:48 AM

Here is a link about the traditions of Glastonbury:
http://www.sanctuaryofprayer.com/answers5.html

The site has written a summary on the Traditions of Glastonbury.

Here is an excerpt:

By Gildas Badonicus, the earliest known British historian ( 516-570 AD), Joseph of Arimathea was referred to as "nobilus decurio"...which is similar to the term that St. Jerome used in his "Vulgate of St. Mark's 'honorable counsellor'...Decurio ". This denotes a high ranking Roman office...as well as one in charge of Rome's mining interests in Britain. This title would have certainly assured Joseph as "kinsman redeemer" of the body of Jesus. It is well known and documented that the early Phoenicians and the Hebrews traded and mined tin in Britain as early as 1500 BC. So, Joseph was in the tin mining business on behalf of Rome, and had great wealth to show for it. He also must have had great ships available for Jesus to have traveled to many parts of the world. One place he traveled to was fairly certain...Britain...the Isle of Avalon...a place called Glastonbury

david_munson

10-09-2006, 03:22 PM

Where did this guy get the idea that Jesus traveled to "many parts of the world"?

Scripture offers no support for this "theory."
None at all for Britain.
If Jesus was traveling around on Joseph of Aramathea's ships,He would have mentioned him by name.
He makes no mention at all of this.
Scripture makes no mention of this and is contrary to this idea.

I hope this guy isn't offering up this theory to bolster the lie that Christ visited the American continent during His lifetime,like the Mormons claim.
He didn't.

(just my 35 cents worth/due to inflation)
Dave
}

kimberlyfredrick

10-09-2006, 04:21 PM

Hey you guys. I saw that show as well. It was very informative. I also saw one on Shepherds Chapel that was incredible. I would love to own the one I saw there.

And for what it is worth. I do not recall PM pushing the documentary or the idea of Jesus or Mary as being in England as the Gospel truth. PM did have a lot of respect for the Author and his research. It was presented as a strong possibility but nothing more.

Just showing ruins there trying to tie it all in with recorded history and area legends. The truth is no one really knows for sure. But just thinking of the possibilities is cool.

arron

10-09-2006, 07:29 PM

there is NO BIBLICAL evidence that JESUS ever traveled to england or other parts of the world and any one preaching that is preaching a lie

kimberlyfredrick

10-09-2006, 08:23 PM

Arron,

You are correct. There is no Biblical evidence what-so-ever! Who said there was??? Did I miss something?

If you are refering to what I wrote. On Shepherds Chapel they showed a 1 hour+ documentary in which PM was not in it. It was the work of others. He did not preach this nor did he say that it was true or biblical.

The documentary was no different than TBN or Daystar showing a Documentary/Movie. Just less hairspray and makeup(LOL)

terluvire

10-09-2006, 09:16 PM

Arron, Kimberly is correct. The same documentary which the Shepherd's Chapel aired, it is the same one which TLC and The Discovery Channel aired.

Arron you never answered my question. I'll repost it again:
So arron, where do you think the lost tribes are? And does where you think they are make you a racist? I just don't see how following the migrations and blessing of the tribes would be considered racist.

Thanks in advance.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

terluvire

10-09-2006, 09:18 PM

Oops, it was aired by The History Channel and The Discovery Channel, not The Learning Channel if my memory serves correctly.

arron

10-09-2006, 09:45 PM

kim and ter...i was referring to wat some one said about the posting of taking JESUS to england. not to eother of you. and ter the saying that england and the us is isrealites they do exclude. i did not say sc preached that if i di i dnt remember it. i would have to see the post. i am not a racist. that is not christian, do not try to make somethingout of nothing or change the meaning of my words.

kimberlyfredrick

10-09-2006, 11:22 PM

OK Arron.

I just wanted to clear the air so there would be no confusion from one of my posts.
I tend to ramble a bit and soemtimes when i re-read my post hours later

I leave myself shaking my own head....LOL. And for the record, I think you are a lovely Older christian man who is not one bit racist.

And I don't think Terluvire was trying to twist anything you said. She just asked you a question that was all.

terluvire

10-10-2006, 12:34 AM

Hi Arron,

No, don't get me wrong, I never never said you were racist. I'm sorry if you got that out of my post. I was not saying that. I do apologize if that's how it seemed.

But it does seem that you have insinuated that we are racist because of discussing the migrations of the lost tribes. I was only wondering why it would be considered racist to discuss the lost tribes? For you said:
Quote:
terluvire.........the preaching of the isssrealite (england and the us ) nations are racist. they exclude everone else. does am have blacks attending his church what if one wanted to join?

Your question seemed to insinuate that we are racist.

But Arron, out of curiosity, where do you think the lost tribes are today?

kimberlyfredrick

10-10-2006, 12:39 AM

Teluvire,

Good point. That reminds me....

Arron,

On the Shepherds chapel website please view the shsort video taken at one of the Feasts held at the Chapel. There you will find many people being interviewed and a great deal of them are black people.

I hope this helps

terluvire

10-10-2006, 12:44 AM

I found the subject of the Japanese in the link I provided above. The information is very fascinating. I think I'm going to see what else I can find concerning the Israelites in Japan.

Here is an excerpt from the article:
Well, when some of these ruling, half-Egyptian, Manasseh-ites got over there to Japan, the warriors of Samaria became the Samurai. Isn't that just the neatest connection? I love it. And the common Japanese name, Sakai, is very close to what the Persians called the Israelites; Sakka, for the sons of Isaac. What about Saki? Prof. Odlum brings out many more parallels between the Israelites and the Japanese.
http://asis.com/~stag/japanese.html

Prof. E. Odlum did a study on this subject. Interesting huh!!

terluvire

10-10-2006, 12:58 AM

I typed in Prof. E. Odlum's name and I found this:

http://www.originofnations.org/old_bi_literature/index.htm

This site has many articles of the lost tribes written by many different authors such as:
Ingersol
William Blake
Rev Milner
Sharon Turner...and many more authors.

I haven't read through all the articles but I wanted to share what I have found.
The intertnet is a treasure trough!!!

angie0401

10-10-2006, 02:24 AM

Great link, terl!
I found this on that site:

Advocates of British-Israelism

John Wilson, Anglican layman from Cheltenham, England, published Our Israelitish Origin in 1840. This work was the first full-blown thesis connecting the Anglo-Saxons to ancient Israel. Wilson drew on the best of contemporary scholarship and methodology. He made particular use of the work of Sharon Turner (1768-1847), a monumental figure in British historiography whose multivolume work, The History of the Anglo-Saxons, traces the Anglo-Saxons back through Europe to the Balkan countries and ultimately to the Crimea and Caucasus Mountains-exactly what we would expect according to 2 Kings 17:6 and 1 Chronicles 5:26.

Edward Hine, a banker and successor of Wilson, wrote Forty-Seven Identifications of the British Nation With Lost Israel (1871).

Hine claimed to have addressed five million people on this topic during his lecture-circuit career.

John Harden Allen, Methodist minister from the U.S. Pacific Northwest, wrote Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright (1917).

T. Rosling Howlett, Baptist minister, had pastorates in New York City, Washington and Philadelphia.

Charles Piazzi Smyth (1819-1900) was the royal astronomer of Scotland and emeritus professor of astronomy at Edinburgh University.

Col. John Cox Gawler (1830-1882) was the keeper of the British crown jewels.

Herbert Armstrong (1892-1986), founder and chancellor of Ambassador University, wrote The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy, published in several editions until 1986.

Steven Collins wrote The "Lost" Ten Tribes of Israel ... Found! (1992).

Yair Davidy authored The Tribes: The Israelite Origins of Western Peoples (1993), Ephraim (1995) and Lost Israelite Identity (1996).

John Ogwyn, minister of the Living Church of God, wrote What's Ahead for America and Britain? (1999).

http://www.originofnations.org/old_bi_literature/advocates_of_bi.htm

arron

10-10-2006, 03:04 AM

i believe that the so callled lsot tribes are scattered all over the world and are still isrealites though scattered.

angie0401

10-10-2006, 03:34 AM

So what is your argument with us then, arron if you also believe this?

arron

10-10-2006, 04:28 AM

because i do not believe that england nor the us is the ten lost tribes or that they are the tribes of mannaseh and ephrim so dont even start on that

terluvire

10-10-2006, 04:36 AM

Arron, We believe the same thing. The lost tribes have migrated around the world.

Angie, there is so much out there!!! I really am thankful for the internet.

terluvire

10-10-2006, 04:39 AM

Arron, I didn't see your above post when I made mine. So you believe the lost tribes are scattered around the world....except for Great Britian and USA? Why would we be left out?

kimberlyfredrick

10-10-2006, 04:32 PM

You know, the Bible tells us to test all things. It also tells us to study the Bible, not merely read it. Self-study is imperative to recieving wisdom and understanding.

Your not gonna have a revelation just sitting on a pew listening to a couple of scriptures each Sunday. Impossible!

To understand God's message of the lost tribes one MUST study the scripture and test them to historical accounts. If someone refuses to follow this simple formula which God mandated, then no, they will never know were the lost tribes are. Does it mean that salvation is lost to them? No, of course not. But they do lose yet another opportunity to be closer to God because they refused to take the time to seek him out and obey his word.

I feel so sorry for people who do not study God's word.

terluvire

10-10-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:
Your not gonna have a revelation just sitting on a pew listening to a couple of scriptures each Sunday. Impossible!

Hi Kimberly, they are called "pew potatoes".http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

abiyah

10-10-2006, 04:50 PM

David Munson WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: " Where did this guy get the idea that Jesus traveled to "many parts of the world"?

Scripture offers no support for this "theory."
None at all for Britain.
If Jesus was traveling around on Joseph of Aramathea's ships,He would have mentioned him by name.
He makes no mention at all of this.
Scripture makes no mention of this and is contrary to this idea. " END QUOTE
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Morning to you ALL !

And Peace unto you from our Lord, Christ Jesus !
David.... I think you may find E. Raymond Capt's work called ' The Traditions of Glastonbury ' very intersting, for it is indeed a fine work of Archeology, and Historical events that does show how that when Jesus, as a young boy traveled with His uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, and there are many arti-facts shown in this book/vhs that show that it is very likely that Jesus did travel to Glastonbury England as a young child. You do recall how that Joseph of Arimetha was Christ's kinsman redeemer following His crucifixtion. You may want to check this book or the VHS out for yourself, before you completely rule it this matter as false. I discern his findings to be true regarding this matter, in that I do think indeed that Jesus did travel to Galstonbury England, as a young boy with Joseph the tin man, there are many songs of ancient times regarding this in England. I think you would really enjoy this book, its all research that E. Raymond Capt takes you through in England and Avalon. I have both the book and the VHS, and it is very, very intersting David, I think that you may enjoy it.

God Bless,

Abiyah

arron

10-10-2006, 05:45 PM

ter.. i did not say england and the us were not scattered.. for i do not consider them the lost tribes. you were i suppose talking about the lost tribes .. for i was and the us and england are not the lost tribes they have some scattered in them but they are not as a whole the lost tribes.

terluvire

10-10-2006, 07:15 PM

Where is it that many migrate to? It is America. So if the tribes are scattered around the world, and in turn many from those countries migrated to this great land, wouldn't the USA have many from the 10 Lost Tribes living here?

Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

This is the blessing Isaac bestowed to Jacob:
Gen 27:26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
Gen 27:27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
Gen 27:28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
Gen 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.
Gen 27:30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.

Which nation has recieved such a blessing with bounty of everything? God has greatly blessed us in our agriculture and our military. There is no nation as greatly blessed as the USA.

Look at Joseph's blessing he recieved:
Gen 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel: )
Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Joseph was the father of Ephraim and Manasseh.

Look at this prophecy concerning Gog:
Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Skip to verse 10:
Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Continued Below

terluvire

10-10-2006, 07:16 PM

Continued:

Skip to verse 16:
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

A nation with no walls and dwells in safety.

God fights this battle for us on that great day!
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

The tribes are scattered around the world, but many came from those countried and gathered here, the USA.

There is much more in God's word to support the migrations of the 10 Tribes and the gathering of peoples from the nations, God calls this gathering place Israel as mentioned in Eze 38. This is something to really ponder on. There is still work to be done.

arron

10-10-2006, 07:20 PM

i do not believe in the ten lost tribes they are not lost to GD and i certianly bleive they know who they themselves are.

abiyah

10-10-2006, 08:00 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGood Afternoon Terluvire & ALL !

Great post(s) Terluvire ! There is so much more in God's Word regarding The Tens Tribes being scattered abroad. And even in HIStory, how that it shows that the Ten Tribes of Israel when coming out of capitivity to the Assyrians migrated over the Caucasus Mountains, to be later called Caucasians, and indeed they settled all over Europe, Britian, and later to this Great Nation, America; Which is a nation of
' In God we Trust'.

Aaron do you think this nation became a blessed and great nation just by chance ? God told Abraham that his 'seed', his offspring, his children would become as numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky, think about that, for they CANNOT BE NUMBERED. A people that large in number... where are they ? God told them He would scatter them. And they indeed do make up many of the Christian nations of today. " ) Do you not know that Great Britian has Jacobs Pillar, The Stone of Scone/Destiny ? It is their Coranation Stone, and before they obtained The Stone, Scotland possessed it. You know Aaron.... doing a little research of this topic matter will easily show you that which Terluvire as told you is True, but better than that, she documented this Truth with God's Word. God scatter Israel, but He SHALL gather them back again, as Terluvire has stated above. And they are many !

Abiyah

arron

10-10-2006, 08:26 PM

HE also told them that HE would give anohter nation bearing the fruit HE required a place ..

terluvire

10-10-2006, 08:31 PM

Good Afternoon Abiyah,

I am happy to see you! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

You said:
Aaron do you think this nation became a blessed and great nation just by chance ? God told Abraham that his 'seed', his offspring, his children would become as numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky, think about that, for they CANNOT BE NUMBERED. A people that large in number... where are they ? God told them He would scatter them. And they indeed do make up many of the Christian nations of today. " ) Do you not know that Great Britian has Jacobs Pillar, The Stone of Scone/Destiny ? It is their Coranation Stone, and before they obtained The Stone, Scotland possessed it. You know Aaron.... doing a little research of this topic matter will easily show you that which Terluvire as told you is True, but better than that, she documented this Truth with God's Word. God scatter Israel, but He SHALL gather them back again

I agree. Arron I do not think you have studied the migrations nor checked out anything which was posted. Your post was mere minutes after mine. There is no way you could have checked any of it out. You really do need to do some research on your own. That way, whether you agree with us or not at least you would know what you were talking about.

Arron said:
i do not believe in the ten lost tribes they are not lost to GD and i certianly bleive they know who they themselves are.

First off, you don't believe the 10 Tribes are lost? You are right though, God most certainly does know who they are today. But God does give us clues in His Word as to who they are today.

And secondly, If someone told you that they were of the scattered Lost Tribes, would you believe them? For you said: "i certianly bleive they know who they themselves are."

Or is that you would believe everyone else except for us? Maybe I'm not making sense out of what you said. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

kimberlyfredrick

10-10-2006, 08:36 PM

Arron,

How many Jewish friends do you have? I have several and I can tell you that none of them claim to know which tribe they came from. You need to research before you state opinions.

Opinions are worthless and generaslly wrong when givern withour scripture/historical backup. Arron, come to think of it, I have never seen you use Scripture or anything to support your views. How come?

arron

10-11-2006, 01:17 AM

kimberly... i have many jewish friends have attended school with some have been working with some have been in church with some and all claimed to know what tribe they were from. and no, only a few of them were christian, non were messianic

arron

10-11-2006, 01:20 AM

and kimberly ever since you found out i would not and never will stand for the sc and am and dm teachings you have tried to find fault and none of you use scripture either to prove your rediculoas claims of no rapture no trinity and the serpent seed garbage and the more than eight people on the ark trash

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 01:52 AM

Arron,

I cannot believe you are talking to me like that. I have always known, for 3 months that you do not approve of Shepherds Chapel.

And I have NEVER said if I believe or disbelieve in the serpent seed or the '8 people in the ark trash'. NEVER!!! and, if asking you a question is what you call finding fault then how can I grow and learn???

You have made me into the bad guy just because I ask you a question? How mean and judgemental is that Arron???

arron

10-11-2006, 03:06 AM

be good kim

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 03:21 AM

No Arron, you be good. You started in on me. I see you now in a different light. And I dont like it.

And the teachings of SC are not 'trash' as you called it. PM is a man of God who is trying to teach others. Whether you chose to believe or not or if you are able to understand them or not is your business.

Remember, these are SC threads. Showing a little respect here would be the Christian thing to do. Why must you come here if you judge others who dare question you yet it is OK for you to come here on SC threads to spew your brand of hate???

And for the record, SC beleives in the trinity. Damn I am sick to death of you putting words in these peoples mouths. And for the record, I tend to see things a bit differently.

MUhahahahahah!

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 03:41 AM

And just for the record. SC is not a cult. If it was I would be expelled!!! Those who enjoy listening to PM live all over the USA. Most have never set foot inside the chapel.

We have different backgrounds and different beleifs. I doubt that you will find most of the SC'ers beieving in all the doctrines of the church word for word. Most of us worship at other Churches, Denominations and Sects. A cult church would NEVER allow this. NEVER!!!

Have you ever just once listened to PM and did what he teaches??? He tells us every program not to beleive a word he or anyone elsae says UNTIL we get our own bibles out and prove the teachings true. He strongly suggests that if we are serious about learning the word of God. Then we should invest in a Strongs Concordance to FURTHER try to prove him wrong.

What the heck is cultish about that???

Arron, you strike me as one who beleives whatever your minister says. I doubt you own a Strongs much less ever opened your Bible to prove PM wrong. You are comfy in your widdle church sitting there on your pew beleiving whatever sermonette your brainwashed with that day. Have you ever proved to yourself through self-study and prayer that the scriptures you beleive in are true???

Were am I coming from? You keep implying that PM is a racist when all you had to do was go on his website and watch the video. It is a rather small site and if you had ever been there you would know that blacks physically go,attend,worship there.

Man, you really burn me.

You Arron are a Religious Bigot!!!!

arron

10-11-2006, 06:35 AM

yes i own a strongs and i own several other concordances and bibles ( all kjv) i even have a kjv,,, companion bible which i quit useing because of the wild teachngs in the appendex which should be removed for it is unhealthy. you said that pm tells us toget our bibles out and prove his teachng true, well that is impossible for they are not. i have found him wrong manay times. i dont just beleive what any minister says but i do believe the bible. i am not brainwashed and we dont have "sermonettes" we have preaching of THE WORD OF GOD and we self study and pray when we read the bible i never take what man says but what GOD says and if they do believe that engalnd and us are the ten tribes they are certianly racist for that leaves out all the others and that includes those from africa. and if i have burned you well better now than the fires of hell laater if you go there which i pray that you dont, i am not a bigot but people who put down others and do the same are alos the same. whe i said be good i was speaking as a friend and giving a greeting and not a note of hatefulnes. a cult is some one who denys THE WORD OF GOD who replaces it with their own interpretations and exclude any who dont believe that way.what ever you wrote at the end of your last post sounds like gibberish to me and if you were saying that because i believe in speaking in tongues then i pray for you as it is dangerous to speak against THE WORKING OF THE HOLY GHOST. i pray that you were not doing that. and no sc does not believe in the trinity , they believe that they are different offices and that is not so as the teaching of THE WORD lets us knw there is A FATHER, THERE IS A SON AND THERE IS A HOLY GHOST, THREE, THREE ,THREE. something that is untrue is trash and should be discarded. so since you dont want me to give you my greeting i will say good night sleep tight and dont let the bedbugs bite.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 07:19 AM

Arron, My nephew is half black AND part Jewish, of Judah!! So what does that tell you? Is he or is he not of Judah? I would say he is.

I'm getting really tired of the subtle racist comments!! Please, do your homework before you respond.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 07:22 AM

I will also add that my nephew is part of the house of Israel, of the lost 10 Tribes.

He's part African American, Jewish, Irish, Scottish, English, German, and French.

(Message edited by terluvire on October 11, 2006)

terluvire

10-11-2006, 07:46 AM

Arron said:
if they do believe that engalnd and us are the ten tribes they are certianly racist for that leaves out all the others and that includes those from africa.

Not just the USA and England, you forgot Denmark, Ireland, Scotland, France, Canada, Holland, Australia, New Zealand, ect... But many did migrate to the USA. So in turn the USA would have many from the 10 Tribes living here.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 08:00 AM

Arron, with your reasoning, does it mean that those who are not of Israel... are not worthy? For you said: "if they do believe that engalnd and us are the ten tribes they are certianly racist for that leaves out all the others and that includes those from africa."

Now the whole world cannot be of the lost Tribes of Israel, right? Do you see what I'm saying?? Even is one is not of Israel, it doesn't make them any less important. God loves all his children:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

But concerning the house of Israel, they have work to do and prophecy still needs to be fulfilled.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 08:15 AM

"if they do believe that engalnd and us are the ten tribes they are certianly racist for that leaves out all the others and that includes those from africa."

I guess according to Arron, God must be a racist for God didn't include every single person into the lineage of Israel.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 08:18 AM

Sorry about the all posts everyone. I was just a wee bit upset with Arron's attitude.

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 08:21 AM

Arron,

It is you who keep calling SC and anyone who watches the show but yourself a racist! That IS Religious Biggotry. It is you who come here constantly putting us and PM down. Do you have any idea how many times you alone have called us a racist?

You posted on Cultbusters that whenever you or anyone else posts on the SC threads that they are attacked for not believing the way that we do and that we threaten them with going to hell.

Well, your last post you told me that you hoped that I did not go to hell for my beleifs. You did to me what you claim at Cultbusters that we do to you.

Do you realize that Arron???

And please forgive me Arron, I did not realize that you were giving me a greeting.

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 08:28 AM

Oh, and good Morning Teluvire!

I see you are having trouble sleeping just as I.

I hope that you can get some sleep soon.

I'll throw ya some z's your way.....LOL
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

sweet Dreams girlfriend!!!

arron

10-11-2006, 03:27 PM

ter and kim good morning to both of you. no i am not racist i have anb adopted grandson who is biracial and i love him and he is loved with all our hearts. and ter you know that i did not say that the way you put it. that is what is wrong with most of you you put words there that the person did not say, all people can be saved and brought into GODS kingdom.GOD IS NOT A RACIST. but when anyone excludes any other race from GOD or from HIS works they are racist. i pray both of you get some sleep. is it night where eyyou are when it is day here or we both on the same sechulde. i wont say be good for that offends some i will say "hang in there" and kim i enjoy talking with you it brings a little joy in my life

arron

10-11-2006, 05:07 PM

kimberly... do you beleive in the serpent seed doctrine? please ,,, just give me an answer

arron

10-11-2006, 05:09 PM

ter... do you believe the serpent seed doctrine? just give me an answer

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 05:16 PM

Arron,

I also enjoy talking with you. And you can continue saying 'be good' I misunderstood you last night and for that I apologize.

And for the 12 Tribes teaching I assure you we do not look at it as racist. We look at is as PROOF that racisim is wrong. The pure blooded Isrealites, the 'lost 10 tribes' are everywere.But they mixed with other races. All colors black and white.
Just as there is no 'pure american' anymore(which would be Indian, but our ancesters slaughtered them). Heck, I doubt there are many pure Frenchman, Germans etc.

It has nothing to do with race/color. I dont even know what a pure white race is suspose to be. The racist made up the word Ariyan and if you look that word up it is a made up word.There is not a Ariyan Country. (I don't think)

Saying that USA and GB are 2 countries which recieved God's blessing is not racist. Look at them and compare them with other countries. They have been blessed by God and continue to proclaim it. They are known worldwide as Christian Nations. Always have.

They did not convert, they have worked to convert the world. God has used these 2 countries for his will. The Gospel spread all over the world because of the people of these 2 super powers. There is nothing racist about that.

Our founding fathers were slave owners. Does that make America today a racist country??? Sure was back then when America was formed. kinda makes ya think, don't it?

arron

10-11-2006, 05:19 PM

will you answer my question kimberly.. do you believe the serpent seed doctrine?

abiyah

10-11-2006, 06:19 PM

Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: " and kimberly ever since you found out i would not and never will stand for the sc and am and dm teachings you have tried to find fault and none of you use scripture either to prove your rediculoas claims of no rapture no trinity and the serpent seed garbage and the more than eight people on the ark trash " END QUOTE
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif Aaron !

Gee... what can I say with reagrds to this above stated quote by you brother ? What on earth were you thinking when you posted that ? My goodness ! And you do greatly ERR when you say that "NONE OF YOU use Scripture either to PROVE..... ". As a matter of fact you do far more than grealy err, you lie !

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT sir ? With all due respect Aaron, you once again do lie ! For the truth IS that on numerous occassians many here have DOCUMENTED with The Word of God in their posts what the real sin was in The Garden of Eden, how that The LORD told the serpent He would put emnity between the serpents offspring/children, and Eve's offspring/children WITH Adam. We showed you how it was that they sewed fig leaves to cover their private parts were they had sinned with. We posted here Word for Word The parable of the tares in the field, which CHRIST taught us, and indeed we quoted DIRECTLY FROM GOD's WORD, We also quoted Scripture showing you that God is AGAINST those that teach His children to fly to save their souls ! Your so-called rapture theory brought forth by Margret McDonald in 1830, and NOT brought froth from God ! We ALSO used God's Word, that being SCRIPTURE Aaron, to show you how that Noah took two of EVERY FLESH, that being mankind, upon the ark along with his own family, for their were ONLY EIGHT ADAMIC souls upon the Ark, which were descendants of 'The' man Adam. We used SCRIPTURE to document these Truths in God's Word ! How dare you call The LORD's Word "ridiculous", how dare you call His Truth "garbage", and shame on you for calling His Word TRASH !! ENOUGH is ENOUGH Aaron ! Its one thing to disagree, its another to show such vile disrepect in your above comments. Are you BLIND & DEAF ? Then know that it was, and still is JESUS CHRIST, and NOT the traditons of men that made the deaf to hear TRUTH and the blind to see TRUTH ! When He performed those miracles you were to also see it spiritually ! Get it ? And it is ONLY God that can wake you from your slumber! And even though your above quote was spoken in your own ignorance, it still shows a great lack of respect and reverence to God's Word for you to call it ridiculous, garbadge, and trash ! I CRINGE at your above comments! And you have made me angry with your above stated quote/post !

Romans 11:7
" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he SEEKETH for; but the election hath obtained it, and THE REST were BLINDED. "

Romans 11:8
" (According as IT IS written, God hath given them THE SPIRIT OF SLUMBER, eyes that they should NOT see, and ears that they should NOT hear;) unto this day. "

Romans 11:9
" And David SAITH, Let their table be made a SNARE, and A TRAP, and A STUMBLINGBLOCK, and a RECOMPENSE unto them; "

Romans 11:10
" Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Abiyah

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 06:21 PM

To be honest with you I do not have enough teaching in the subject to say yes or no. I do see it plausable. I find it intriging. But I need to know all of the facts of it before I could possibly make a stand on it and I have not been educated on it fully to do so.

This is why you do not see me quote scripture here very often. I leave it up to the other students who are more educated than myself. These are SC threads and I respect them enough that I do not wish to misrepresent their teachings.

But if I ever do decide that I did not beleive that that or any other teaching is true by no means would I start siding against them. I have learned more from watching PM than I have anywere else.

I don't understand why you frequent these threads and not the ones about the ministers who are harming the sheep. You know the mainstram popular preachers who teach the
Prosperity Doctrine', 'Once saved always Saved', 'Name it Claim it' etc. These guys and gals are filthy rich gleaming the unlearned with their get rich quick teachings which is as far off from biblical as you can get. They are wolves in sheeps clothing who are getting fat off of well intended Christians who are being misled onto the poverty road in this life and into hell in the next.
Why don't you use your energy to help out those poor lost souls?

arron

10-11-2006, 06:26 PM

i just cant undestand why you want give an answer to the question.. do you or do you not believe the serpent seed doctrine that is simple either yes or no/ also if the trees in the garden were JESUS and satan.. why did they grow out of the ground ? this was real trees with real fruit of somekind on them and that is what eva ate of. she did not have sex with the serpent and have a baby by it.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 07:26 PM

Arron, Kimberly did answer your question. She said she doesn't know enough Scripturally to base an opinion yet. If you don't like that answer....Oh Well!!! She is not like you, where you throw your opinions out there whether you did some research or not. Not all are like that Arron. Most will jump into a debate with a working knowledge of the subject. You on the other hand shoot from the hip. I don't think I've ever seen you post Scripture to prove your argument.

You say we don't post Scripture as Abiyah has pointed out. That is a lie Arron! Go through these threads and you will see Scripture posted. You might not agree with our stand, but to lie and say we do not post Scripture is wrong.

I see also you have made no comment to Abiyah's post to you. Why have you ignored her???

As far as the Serpent Seed goes, take it to the appropriate thread. This thread was suppose to be a dicussion on the lost 10 Tribes but you and godchild have turned it into racism and now you are trying to change it into a completely different subject.

And Arron, Please, If you disagree with our posts, could you please post a rebuttal with Scripture and show how you see it with Scripture. It's kind of hard to have a discussion about Scripture when the one we are discussing it with will not post a rebuttal and the reason why they disagree.

I really don't enjoy putting in alot of work into a post, only to have you respond with an answer, which probably takes you mere minutes to respond with, and most assuridly very little research on your part. It's not right Arron. If you expect it from us then also expect it from yourself.

abiyah

10-11-2006, 07:36 PM

Aaron WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: "...... also if the trees in the garden were JESUS and satan.. why did they grow out of the ground ? THIS WAS REAL TREES WITH REAL FRUIT of somekind on them and THAT IS what eva ATE OF. she did NOT have sex with the serpent and have a baby by it. " END QUOTE
-------------------------------------------------

And again.... BIBLICALLY IGNORANT, UNKNOWING of THE TRUTH which is IN GOD's WORD, but rather you do choose to follow the traditions of men which make God's Word to NONE EFFECT ! And worse than that YOU share false docrines and traditions here under these threads, yet those that come and gather here in Christ's Name, are dedicated to The Truth in which He taught ! So perhaps Kimberly is onto to something here..... maybe you are in the wrong threads.

Now, with regards to your above teaching of God's Word, IT IS WRITTEN !

II Thessalonians 2:11

" And for this cause God SHALL send them strong delusion, that they should BELIEVE A LIE; "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif See.... your above stated quotes, which you state as truth and fact, are simply lies and deception that you believe, and worse than that Aaron, you share these lies of false doctrine and traditions of men with us, and any others that may come here to read these threads. One must beware of your leaven [ symbolic of the doctrine that you have shared in your above quote ] .

II Thessalonians 2:12

" That they ALL might be damned who believed NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

You know who else believed a lie Aaron ? EVE ! EVE believed a lie when she listened to the serpent, as oppopsed to The Word of God. And because of this Aaron... EVE LOST her viginity to the serpent, she partook of his fruit, his lies, his deception, and she was completely seduced.

II Corinthians 11:2
" For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband [ That One is Christ ], that I may present you as A CHASTE VIRGIN TO CHRIST; [ Christ is the BrideGroom ]. "

II Corinthians 11:3
" But I fear, lest by any means, as THE SERPENT BEGUILED [= meaning completley or wholly seduced ] EVE through his subtilty, so your minds should be CORRUPTED from the simplicity that is in Christ. "

And Kimberly again makes an excellant point, why don't you go use your energy somewhere else, especially if you do not like our beliefs, for we believe The Word of God, then go if you are offended ! As I discern Aaron that you must be offended to call God's Word trash, garbage, and ridiculous, and whether you realize it or not, that is exactly what you did ! It kind of reminds me of The Children while they were in the wilderness, as everytime they complained about Moses, they were really complaining about The LORD, for Moses did and spoke according to what The LORD had instructed him. And that is also what many here have so diligently done and do. Speak The Word of God. But you beleive traditions of men ! Yet, as kimberly has suggested with a kind heart for you to go and help other poor souls, I do not suggest that you go to other threads/forums, etc, and preach traditions of men, and false doctrines, but rather you go and SEEK, and LEARN Truth, which is IN God's Word. But indeed, I do agree with Kimberly, you should go. Because frankly I find your comments regarding God's Truth as garbage, trash, etc. very offensive, and indeed I'm offended, even if you are ignorant brother, that was uncalled for.

Abiyah

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 08:23 PM

Arron,

As I told you I do not know fully the SC Serpent Seed Doctrine to even begin talking about it or make a decision on it.

I do not make any Biblical decisions regarding Scripture as true or false until I thoughly research it first. I assusme since you find it to be scripturally unsound and untrue then you know all about it.

I will start a new thread were you can tell me exactly what the SC teaches on this so I can compare it to scripture and pray on it and when I make my decison on it I will tell you, OK?

This will be a perfect chance for you to witness to me and all who come here as to why it is a false doctine proving it false with scripture and verse.

If it is false then you can prove it to be false, right?

arron

10-11-2006, 08:59 PM

you gave false info when you said that i had proved it wrong. i did not give you permission to start a thread in my name you have done a false thing

terluvire

10-11-2006, 09:17 PM

Arron said:
you gave false info when you said that i had proved it wrong. i did not give you permission to start a thread in my name you have done a false thing

Oh Please!!! What are we to think when you say such things as the Serpent Seed is garbage!! Accordingly you do think it is false!! All Kimberly is asking is that if you think it is false, prove it to her with Scripture!! It's that simple!!!!

And I'm glad she started another thread for you to respond on. So if you feel the Serpent Seed is false, put your money where your mouth is and prove it. But please leave this thread for the discussion of the 10 Lost Tribes.

Thankshttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 09:21 PM

Arron,

You told me the Serpent Seed Doctrine was a false doctrine. For you to think that way you had to have proved it false to yourself, right?

Are you telling me that you beleive it to be false yet you never proved it false to yourself???

Is this how you DECIDE what is a true doctrine and whar is'nt???

Arron, that does not make sense. Why did you tell me that it is false then? Why do you refuse to witness to me when I ask?

Stating your own opinion is dangerous and unbiblical.

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 09:39 PM

Sorry Teluvire,

I did not see your post. And you are right. I am way off base here. This is a Lost Tribe thread. I will respect that in the future.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 09:51 PM

Kim,Oh no need to apologize!! I was posting to Arron, he is the one who is trying to switch the topic, not you.

This is one of the tactics they use. If they can't debate us on the topic on hand they switch it. If you read the older threads you will see this. Or they throw out insults. But you will hardly ever see some who do this, use Scripture for their debate.

Again, no need to apologize. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

terluvire

10-11-2006, 09:55 PM

Arron,

You never said where you think the Lost Tribes are today. When you give your answer, please provide Scripture and historical informantion why you believe what you believe concerning the location of the Lost Tribes.

plow_deep

10-11-2006, 10:26 PM

I dont know if anybody noticed this, but here it goes...

If you take a look at Arrons posts, the content and the timing of the questions he poses. I cant help but notice that he is out of character in comparisons to his normal style of posting.

Just take a look around factnet.

I'm guessing that he has joined a gossip group that puts forth the ideas he presents here in the SC threads.

He is being coached and allowing himself to be used.

terluvire

10-11-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:
He is being coached and allowing himself to be used.

I was thinking the same thing. I believe godchild is behind it.

godchild

10-11-2006, 11:27 PM

You people are warped!

kimberlyfredrick

10-11-2006, 11:51 PM

Wow....I was thinking the same thing last night!!! He was up so late. later than usual. He has been posting a good bit on the other threads. I don't know but it does look supicious.

Godchild said..."You people are warped"

Thanks darlin'. I think you should change your name to 'medusa' 'cause your head is full of snakes!!!

terluvire

10-12-2006, 12:00 AM

Kim said:
Thanks darlin'. I think you should change your name to 'medusa' 'cause your head is full of snakes!!!

ROTFL......LOLOLOLOL!!!

terluvire

10-12-2006, 04:06 AM

Look what I found here at Cultmakers. Posts between godchild and arron on the open thread called "Urgent Prayer". From the posts, It most certainly does seem that arron was sent here by godchild.

Here is the exchange between the 2:
-------------------------------------------------
Godchild's post #369
That's great advice, arron.
p.s. Have you checked your personal message box today?
-------------------------------------------------

Arron's reply #215
yes and i asked them the question.
-------------------------------------------------

Those posts were made today.

Godchild, you should be ashamed of yourself, using arron to do your dirty work!!

kimberlyfredrick

10-12-2006, 05:08 AM

Good job Teluvire!

I did'nt see those earlier. Veddy sneaking hiding them in the Urgent Prayer request.....Sheesh!

Sadly though, there are more of the same on the SC threads at Cultblunders....

watchman_2

10-12-2006, 05:47 AM

Just a godchild reminder:


godchild (godchild)
Senior Member
Username: godchild

Post Number: 3039
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 4.255.43.75
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 4:46 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
watchman, This is not going to go away. QUOTE: (by the 'oh so (not) brilliant one himself)

Well, the first thing that one notices is the capitalization of Seed and His. In the KJV, this always denotes Christ. Since Christ was not born in the flesh yet, one can only conclude that God’s statement is prophetic. One also can see that the context of the scripture can only lead one to conclude that the use of the word ‘seed’ is offspring.

You lose, tyco train engineer.

Is this a 'retraction'? By the oh so (not) intelligent (watcher) watchman2:

Quote: I did use the Companion Bible for Gen. 3:15. The originial 1611 KJV does not have capital letters for his and seed.

Finally, after all your socalled special translation knowledge from the kjv1611, you don't even use it, except to try to pass off your false doctrines.

NO, no, no. Won't work.

godchild (godchild)
Senior Member
Username: godchild

Post Number: 3041
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 4.255.43.75
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 4:52 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And zeke, ol boy, your attempt to change the subject might have worked if mr. genius had kept his trap shut. You guys really screw each other (up), don't you? Almost as bad as the sc gals do! I can see you two right now: faces as red as beets. That's what that fair skinned blushing gets you.

arron

10-12-2006, 01:23 PM

never have got a ddirect answer to why the trees grew out of the ground if they were JESUS and satan

kimberlyfredrick

10-12-2006, 01:56 PM

Arron,

I want to point out to you that you have NOT answered questions posed here to you. That my friend is rude. Maybe this is why your requests fall on deaf ears....you think?

I know for a fact that Teluvire has posed a question to you repeatedly and youu refuse to answer her.

Another hint Arron, this thread is for THE LOST TRIBES. Stay on topic or start your own thread.

Can you stay on topic???

david_munson

10-12-2006, 02:42 PM

Hello all,
may the Lord be on your minds and in your thoughts today.

God bless,
Dave

}

angie0401

10-12-2006, 03:44 PM

David,
May you be blessed as well. I want you to know that many of us appreciate your attempts at civility and peacemaking. We may not agree on many doctrines, but I truly love you as a brother in Christ.

Angie

terluvire

10-12-2006, 09:34 PM

David,

I agree with Angie.

Thanks http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

terluvire

10-12-2006, 10:27 PM

Hopefully now we can get back to the topic at hand. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Has anyone found any new links to read?

angie0401

10-12-2006, 10:47 PM

I found this one at britam.com very informative. It helped me distinguish between the 2 different captivities and the single return. It's a long, but worthwhile read..

http://britam.org/RETURN.htm

angie0401

10-12-2006, 10:59 PM

I found this one at britam.com very informative. It helped me distinguish between the 2 different captivities and the single return. It's a long, but worthwhile read..

http://britam.org/RETURN.htm

terluvire

10-12-2006, 11:51 PM

Thanks Angie,

I have it bookmarked and will read it later when I have more time. Good Job!

terluvire

10-13-2006, 01:29 AM

Plow, I want to say thank you for starting this thread. I've learned alot more than what I knew before. When I do the acutal research for myself in our Father's word, by digging in his word and going through different books of the Bible, along with the historical research...it solidified it in my mind more than ever before.

Hard work pays off!

Thanks Plow

david_munson

10-13-2006, 04:39 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

}

plow_deep

10-13-2006, 04:24 PM

Terluvire,

I'm glad it helped. I thought it would be good to have a place to share studies and links to research.

Maybe it will help some who dont realise that teaching that the lost tribes are just scattered throughout the world is unbiblical and wrong.

Peace

terluvire

10-18-2006, 07:54 PM

Bumping this thread. It's a good thread, don't want it to die.

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 12:34 PM

This is from 1 of 3 studies I'm currently reading on the book of Revelation, Gog and Magog, and the book of Ezekiel. This part on the verse below fits in this thread rather nicely.

To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
Ezekiel 38:12

The same old thing, the basis of Esau's perpetual hatred. He is after the "spoil," which is the goods and the merchandise and the wealth and the prosperity, that is to say, all the Blessings of the Birthright that God has blessed the U.S./other house of Jacob with. So the other house(s) of Esau wants to just TAKE by force what doesn't belong to him. Take, take, take is all Esau ever thinks of. Here again we see that valuable lesson of God and Isaiah in this verse and shows us who it is that is going to be leading all this taking and coveting, I repeat leading. Leading who? Their brethren of Islam, those desert, just northern and eastern kingdoms. That same ones that wishes to make all the world his spoil and prey. Isaiah told us from God's own lips what and who it was. This is how God curses peoples or nations. He simply lets them fall "prey to the booty" of satan by their own choice NOT by His will or interference, He simply places them and allows us to fall or step over them. This is called a "stumblingblock." People wonder why God allows this or doesn't do that and/or never intercedes. Well, He is fair always to all His children. No one is set above or made better than another in any way shape or form. You must make the choice and A.S.K. or not. You cannot leave God out of the equation, red Comrade. All one has to do is ask for the blessings or not, your choice. From Isaiah 8:1 "Maher-shalal-hash-baz;" (mah-hare'; shaw-lawl' k'hawsh baz); is actually a word made up of four separate words in Hebrew. God tells Isaiah to use and write it in as simple a language as he can put it, this is why it is stated as "a man's pen." Maher -shalal-hash-baz or; the four words used by God to warn us. The four words are haste, speed, spoil and prey, or "swift is booty, speedy is prey." Warning Israel/Jacob that soon they shall become to cry and wail as the tribes were about to be split and scattered by two types of antichrists, then Nebuchadnezzar and the Assyrian king. This occurred only a few weeks after Isaiah wrote this prophecy. You will belong to satan who is antichrist(s) in disguise and not God's souls any longer. God will NOT be mocked! You cannot leave God out of your equations. He will let you go of your own choice. You see, warned them and they did not ask Him for help but went to foreign nations and idol worshippers for help instead of asking their Father, so He finally divorced them and gave them to their wishes, in other words He let them trip over their own stumblingblock. You better be very careful friends.

cont

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 12:39 PM

cont

Ezekiel 14:3 "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?" Well, God just stated it again. Remember we are in those last "years" or days. THE king of Babylon, (number 7 & 8 of Revelation Chapter 17:10-11+), will take your country over or will at least try to. Take, take, take. Nothing new under the sun. Do you know who the gathered people of verse 12 are? All one needs to do is read the history of this nation and he or she will find this land became the melting pot of the gathering of all 13 tribes of God's people Israel as they came to our shores "from out from among the nations." For the deeper students: Ezekiel 24:3 And utter a parable unto the rebellious house, (speaking of Israel not Judah see Ezek 22:18 for object carried over to Ezek 24:21), and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; (Yeshua not YaHoVeH); Set on a pot, set it on, and also pour water into it: Ezek 24:4 Gather the pieces thereof into it, even every good piece, the thigh, and the shoulder; fill it with the choice bones. Ezek 24:5 "Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein." (Wink). Let's do some of our own "historical" locking in now and see what we get. The reason for 13 tribes is that Joseph's birthright was split between his two sons Ephraim (United Kingdom) and Manasseh (America), thus making Manasseh the 13th tribe. Think about it, or can you? Let me think, there were 13 original colonies and 13 original states. There are 13 stripes in our flag, or two sets, one of 7, (red) and one of 6, (white). Red example: Nahaum 2:3 "The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken." White example: Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

cont

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 12:42 PM

cont

In fact, did you know that between the Obverse and the Reverse sides (that means left and right sides of) of the Great Seal of the United States, there are 13 sets of 13! Really, I didn't know that! Take a dollar bill out and see for yourself. For instance: the Eagle holds an olive branch with 13 leaves in its left talon and it holds 13 arrows in its right talon. Arrows as used in a "bow?" Its beak holds a scroll with a 13 letter phrase, "E. Pluribus Unum," which means, "One out of many," is that as in many tribes, many people or what? The "cloud of glory" above the Eagle's head has 13 stars in it as in the stars of Heaven and there are 13 bars or stripes on our flag and 13 rods in our National mace. Bar; If these words are the English "bar," the sense is a shoot, that which shoots, passes or is driven. What is a "rod?" Rod; An instrument for measuring; but more generally, a measure of length containing five yards, or sixteen feet and a half; a pole; a perch. In many parts of the United States, rod is universally used for pole or perch. Also as used in a scepter or what would a "Bruiser for God" use? Would it be a heavy rod or a rod of war? As in a correcting rod of war or a "mace?" Then too the pyramid has 13 courses of stone, above which is written in 13 letters "Annuit Coeptis," which means, "He has favored our beginnings." Course of stone? Course of stones; A row or layer, as of masonry: "All the foundations of the earth are out of count" (the Revised Version [British and American] "are moved;" the American Standard Revised Version "are shaken") (Ps 82:5). OR A way or manner, as of life: "Every one turned to his course" (Jer 8:6); "their course is evil" (Jer 23:10); as Israel did and was scattered; "walked according to the course aion, [the Revised Version, margin "age of this world]" (Eph 2:2). Want to know more? Then read the booklet "Our Great Seal," by E. Raymond Capt, and learn the rich history of how our seal was brought forth carrying the heraldry of Israel. If all this is true then wouldn't YOU say that the number 13 IS the national number of the United States of America? No wonder satan wants everyone to think it's unlucky! Does that also sound at all like British Israelism? Last time I looked the U.S. was no longer under British rule. BUT, did you know that the King James Version of the Holy Bible was ordered written/commissioned by the same "king" that was of that so-called "British Israelism" thinking? Did you know that James the 1st of England was also King James of Scotland before he was given it by Queen Elizabeth the 1st on her death bed? Do you know who his mother was? Did you know how he was coronated? Did you know that the very "stone of scone" that was also known as Jacob's head rest is the very stone that Jeremiah brought with him and was placed under the coronation chair/throne of England and was overturned three times? HUH? It originally came to Ireland then went to Scotland then England. Only recently has it been returned to Ireland, sounds like a fourth time to anyone? No that is actually only three times. Do you know this happened after the 1980's? There it sits until one claims it that is of this generation of the fig tree, that is to say it's rightful King of kings and Lord of lords, (#4). Ezekiel 21:27 "I will overturn,(1), overturn,(2), overturn,(3), it: and it shall be no more, until He come whose right it is; and I will give it Him."

cont

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 12:46 PM

cont

For he deeper students again: (Judges Chapter 7=#4). Well how can you say that is number 4, it isn't really, I just pointed that out to let you see the sense of the actual three overturns, but did you know that England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales are all considered one nation under one king/Queen all coronated under the same stone and chair? The same coronation throne that James of England was crowned upon. The same king that had the Bible prepared for all his people to be able to read. Does this mean we are to throw out the King James Version Bible as heresy? Is it all just British Israelism too? Goes to show you folks, do NOT listen to Biblical illiterates and fools; doesn't it? Because they are uneducated or blocked by the spirit of God, that same spirit of slumber, that same spirit of deception, that same spirit of delusion of Isaiah and Paul's, do not listen to them. They will only mislead you as well. YOUR Choice! YOUR stumblingblock of YOUR iniquity. Which spirit will you use? The Holy Spirit or that which APPEARS similar and IS the same spirit of delusion? You chose. As always God will NOT interfere He simply allows you to continue on YOUR path. The Holy Spirit is both the spirit of creation and that of total destruction. He has shown you the correct path but the choice is always yours. Did you know that Jesus Christ is that stumblingblock? He said so. Have you read it? Romans 11:9 "And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." Who? Those without eyes to see or ears to hear. Where did this come from? Isaiah 8:14 "And he (speaking of Immanuel, see verse 8), shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." This is why you were told to stay on that path that leads to life not to perdition which means to perish. He is always fair to all His children. He is the same yesterday, today and will be forever!

cont

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 12:48 PM

cont

Isaiah 29:10 "For the LORD (YaHoVeH) hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered." Think that was only for the Old Testament folks? Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) to this day." I repeat for Paul, even to THIS DAY! The day, this generation when God said all this knowledge would be poured out upon all the Earth. The "them" in that verse refers to Israel both houses, plural, New and Old. Until that "gospel" is met or taught in the entire world will the end of it not come to pass; as it is written. It does not necessarily say or mean, that it will be accepted, just taught. Why? This is a setup for the two witnesses' days. When they speak the whole world will then know what was taught prior to their arrival and witnessing was the truth. At least some of the people will, most will still remain on bended knee, in Religious bondage, to antichrist who is satan. Most wrongly think this teaching of Scriptures means nations receiving the written word of God. Well it means more than just that. It means as has been stated. For those that may have missed it, it means, when the gospel of the truth has been spread throughout the earth and taught there or heard there will the end come. The Bible is read although not heeded to in every country in the world and the end is not yet here so it must mean something more. Some may argue with you but most already know the truth especially if they think about it. Even in China and the Middle East the Holy Bible is read and they try to use it against the Christian communities. So it is not just that the Bible is spread and read around the world but that the actual truth of the Scriptures is read and or taught that the understanding becomes clearer. We know from Scriptures its self that a lot of the Scriptures was not to be known until this generation of the fig tree was set out which we now know was 1948. What truths are those then? The so-called Serpent Seed and telling the truth about the false rapture lies and apostasies of those Old time Religions taken over by satan for over 2,500 years now. 2,593 to be closer. For the deeper students; Ezekiel Chapter 7's timing or rounded between the times of Isaiah and Daniel.

llm

10-25-2006, 02:10 PM

''was not to be known until this generation of the fig tree was set out which we now know was 1948.''

__the bible time guy has some compelling stuff on the tribes http://www.bibletime.com/tribe/index.html, and he has shown how Russia is the real tribe of Judah. So if this is true then I think the coming down of the Berlin Wall between East and West may have been real unification of Israel...not what the Edomites did in 1948 in Palestine. Any comments?

smyrna

10-25-2006, 02:19 PM

Very interesting, though I certainly cannot agree with some points. The jab at serpent's seed at the end of the comment, of course, begs the question as to whom is referred to as the bad figs of Jeremiah 24:2. The good fig, bad fig metaphor has its relation to the wheat and the tares, a typology.

It is actually a contradiction, your negative view of the Serpent's seed, when you consider the comment immediately beforehand: "We know from Scriptures itself that a lot of the Scriptures was not to be known until this generation of the fig tree was set out which we now know was 1948."

What "Scriptures" is meant here? I do not know, but what I do know is that among the Dead Sea scrolls, we find portions of the Book of Enoch, as well as a writing the DSS scholars called the book of the Giants, Enoch which speaks of the "watchers" who came to earth and mated with women.

Detractors do not realize apparently that the mythologies of ancient cultures did not influence the Bible, as many claim, but actually agree with the Bible, though elements of the Biblical stories are at times twisted and embellished in these mythologies to satisfy indigeonous cultural attitudes. An example is the claim by the Pharoahs that they were half god, and half man.

The bottom line is that once agin, allusions to fallen angels mating with women serve to validate the proper interpretaion of what occured between Eve and the "nachash" of Genesis,and the reality of a separate bloodline preceeding from Cain.

In addition, it is important to note that the reality of a separate bloodline is erroneously overempahsized by critics of the Serpent's seed, because that which should be emphasized is the spiritual aspect of humanity's struggle with good vs evil.

In other words, the attack on the Messianic bloodline ended with the first Advent of our Messiah, and after Jesus was born, actual physical intermingling of "the sons of Cain" with any other peoples became a minor aspect in the overall history of humanity and of God's plan for the ages.

The emphasis at that point should definitely have been placed upon the spiritual, and certainly Jesus made this shift in His teachings. Beforehand, as the Old Testament shows, there was great tribal wars among the "children of light" vs the "children of darkness" as the Dead Sea Scrolls also affirm.

How many times have the Israelites been threatend with annihilation? Even in modern times, the Nazis attempt to do so,and it is widely known to historians that the Nazis relied heavily on ancient occult texts,(not associated with the DSS which had yet to have been discovered) and so they followed the "children of darkness" in their zeal to destroy the Jewish people.

llm

10-25-2006, 02:26 PM

Speaking of typology and serpent seed , if you look at Cain, Abel, and Seth, you can see their New Testament fulfillment in Herod, John, and Jesus. Herod was an Edomite, and that is where you'll find the offspring of Cain.

smyrna

10-25-2006, 02:33 PM

LLM,

Though I find it amazing, I will actually have to agree with you.

llm

10-25-2006, 04:52 PM

just like jacob stole esau's identity, esau stole jacob's identity. the edomites and kenites did it through the khazar kingdom around the black sea along time ago. the true tribe of judah went to kiev in the ukraine. God broke the brotherhood between judah and israel (east and west) Jesus said it would be to judah first, and russia became a christian nation over 1000 years ago, long before the west embraced christiaity as a nation. judah is also in jerusalem because they have the russian orthodox church there. when the berlin wall went down, the fig tree put forth its leaves. that is my opinion.
http://www.bibletime.com/tribe/index.html

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 05:52 PM

Smyrna,

Read it again, it wasnt a jab.

Question: What truths are those then?

Answer: The so-called Serpent Seed and telling the truth about the false rapture lies and apostasies of those Old time Religions taken over by satan for over 2,500 years now. 2,593 to be closer.

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 06:10 PM

llm,

Your hatred for the Jews is apparent in many of your posts. That you dont recognise the return of the Jews, and the making of the State of Israel in 1948 as the fig tree puting forth its leaves, makes it quite apparent.

"judah is also in jerusalem because they have the russian orthodox church there."

That reasoning is so sad, its not worth a comment

smyrna

10-25-2006, 06:18 PM

Plow,

I'll definitely take that correction.

And I'm happy that I still was able to share more info re the subjects at hand.

llm

10-25-2006, 06:22 PM

Jesus didn't hate the jews (offspring of esau and cain) and I don't hate the jews. I just reconize who they are. Jesus exposed who they were and was killed for it. They told him they were Abrahams seed and had never been in bondage to any man. (that would not make them true israel) He told them that he knew they were Abrahams seed and that their father was the devil. That would make them esau and cain. I believe if they accept Christ as their savior, they become children of Gods kingdom and they recieve the mind of Christ, and are transformed into a new creation.

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 06:23 PM

"God broke the brotherhood between judah and israel (east and west) Jesus said it would be to judah first,..."

God divorced the house of Israel a long, long time before His Son dwelled amongst us in the flesh. Judah was never divorced.

terluvire

10-25-2006, 06:26 PM

LLM, the only comment I am going to make to you is that the Jews, Judah is not of Cain. Plus, Esaau was Jacob's brother, he was not in the seedline of Cain.

You're confused.

llm

10-25-2006, 06:51 PM

PD after Jesus (God) died Israel and Judah were free to remarry whoever they wanted. Many of Israel and Judah have remarried back into the new covenant. There is a difference between divorce and widowhood. But Judah was released from the old covenant through the death and resurrection of Christ. Did you know that?

T...True Judah is not of Cain. Esau mixed with Cain. There are those who say they are jews or (Judah) but they are not.

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 06:57 PM

llm,

I dont believe the Jews are all the offspring of Esau and/or Cain either. Sure some are,(pretenders) but the same is true about the house of Israel also.

Esau's kids migrated out of the promised land quite awhile back. I'm sure some returned with Judah in 1948 and since, and many have migrated to the U.S.
But the bulk of them are settled in Russia and the surrounding territories to this very day.

Russia is no friend to the "mountains of Israel" (which I believe refers to the U.S.), and when they come across and attack from the north (north-east Alaska) in the future, God is gonna stop it with divine intervention, man wont stop it, God will.

180+ lb. hail stones are gonna be an awesome testament.

Peace

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 07:14 PM

llm,

No doubts here, The Lord Jesus Christ is the one and only true path for all of mankind.

One day, this will be apparent to everybody.

The real kicker for me is that even after the 1000 year reign of the Lord of lords and the King of kings, some will still fall away from the truth.

terluvire

10-25-2006, 07:25 PM

HI Plow,

Quote:
The real kicker for me is that even after the 1000 year reign of the Lord of lords and the King of kings, some will still fall away from the truth.

That gets me also.

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 07:32 PM

Smyrna,

I understand, when I read your post, I went "Huh?"
Then I looked at what I posted and saw that it couldve been taken wrong due to how closely everything ran together.

Yes, thanks for your additions, can you imagine how much (even more!) insight E.W. Bullinger couldve have given to bible prophecy, if he had lived during the time of the creating of the State of Israel in 48?

Peace

llm

10-25-2006, 07:33 PM

You guys really need to read JUDGES 19,20,21. There will come a time when Judah(Russia) will attack Benjamin(Palestine) because they have joined to the sons of Belial, and commit a grave atrocity in Israel. The types here are quite amazing...if your interested in that kind of thing.

david_munson

10-25-2006, 07:51 PM

Judah is Russia?
Way off.

The US is Israel?
No way.

There is a nation which came out of captivity in 1948 it is called Israel and IS Israel.

I don't agree with what's being presented but don't let me stop your discourse with my comments.(your theories are interesting)
Just an interjection.

Dave
}

david_munson

10-25-2006, 07:58 PM

What in the world?
When I posted this last post,all the AM threads doubled up.
Check out the opening where it says Arnold Murray Sheperds Chapel,It's two now.

Maybe the Factnet programing has gone bonkers for a time hey?
}

david_munson

10-25-2006, 08:02 PM

And then there was one.
Hmm.
Strange but not surprising.LOL

}

plow_deep

10-25-2006, 09:02 PM

"Mountains of Israel"

"Nation of Israel"

Big difference.

llm

10-25-2006, 09:22 PM

Ephraim and Benjamin are very close at this time. No broken brotherhood there.

http://www.bibletime.com/tribe/index.html

llm

10-25-2006, 09:36 PM

I think a problem is that many people confuse the bible verses of God's dealing, scattering, treatment, punishments, etc...of Israel and Judah with this verse about the offspring of satan, and the devil sure uses it to his advantage, if you know what I mean.

Genesis 3:15 And the Lord God said to the serpent, Because thou hast done this thou art cursed above all cattle and all the brutes of the earth, on thy breast and belly thou shalt go, and thou shalt eat earth all the days of thy life. 16 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, he shall watch against thy head, and thou shalt watch against his heel.*(lxx)

terluvire

10-26-2006, 03:20 AM

Plow said:
"Mountains of Israel"

"Nation of Israel"

Big difference.

Good point Plow! There is the country called Israel, and then there are the people called Israel. When one reads these words from God, it should be clear to the reader that God is not talking about the small country called "Israel". People get confused on those points.

Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Where is it that many migrate to? It is America. So if the tribes are scattered around the world, and in turn many from those countries migrated to this great land, wouldn't the USA have many from the 10 Lost Tribes living here?

And
Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

AND:
Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

The country "Israel" consists of mostly Jews, which are of the tribe of Judah. (and the bad figs; Jeremiah 24 speaks of both the good and the bad fig returning) They (Judah) are not the whole house (all 12 tribes) of Israel.

The country named Israel has never dwelt in safety, and they are not unwalled. Those verses are not speaking of the country Israel, but the Mountains of Israel.

Plow is right, there is a big difference.

(Message edited by terluvire on October 25, 2006)

(Message edited by terluvire on October 25, 2006)

kimberlyfredrick

10-26-2006, 05:40 AM

Hey guys...thought I'd stick my head in here and BOY!...what a discussion...I'm sorry I missed it.

It is my understanding that Eze. 38:11 is speaking of America. At least that is what it says to me when I read it. Is this true?

plow_deep

10-26-2006, 05:44 AM

Terluvire,

Thanks for that great post! I was to tired to dig up the verses this afternoon showing the differences between the two.

"The country named Israel has never dwelt in safety, and they are not unwalled. Those verses are not speaking of the country Israel, but the Mountains of Israel."

A very good point. You wont see it on your TV news program, but those walls are going up fast and create more troubles than they will ever stop.
Lots of up to date details and photo's on the web at many different sites.

The Berlin wall is no comparison to the monstrosity being erected over the last few years in the State of Israel.

Peace

plow_deep

10-26-2006, 05:51 AM

Kim,

It sure makes sense to me.

terluvire

10-26-2006, 05:31 PM

Hi Plow,

Thanks! I have to say though, that I use E-Sword to look up the verses. I knew which book they were in, just not exactly where.

You're right, there are many pictures on the web pertaining to the walls around the State of Israel.

Hi Kim,
Quote:
It is my understanding that Eze. 38:11 is speaking of America. At least that is what it says to me when I read it. Is this true?

It seems like it to me.

llm

10-26-2006, 05:50 PM

terluvier, I know this must bother you but, November 9, 1989 is the true date that Israel put forth its leaves when the Berlin wall came down and the divide between Judah (Russia the East)and Israel(USA the West)would soon be gone. Yes, the Khazarian Edomites(abraham) and offspring of Cain(satan)controlled Russia(Judah), and killed the Romanov's, and millions upon millions of true christian judahites in the Gulags during their evil reign. Who was true Judah, Lenin or Romanov?
It was Romanov. See you are confusing Genesis 3:14-15 with Deut.28

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall
http://www.bibletime.com/tribe/index.html
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/koestler/

watchman_2

10-27-2006, 01:51 PM

llm,

It is amazing to me that, after all of the time you have been here, you still have not figured out your errors in the lineage of Judah and Esau.

Gen. 3:14-15 involves the prophecy between the progeny of Satan, the Kenites, and the progeny of Eve that leads to Christ.

Deut. 28 was directed to the elders of Israel [12 tribes of Jacob] only {See Deut. 27:1}. Esau/Edom and the Kenites are not addressed.

llm

10-27-2006, 02:20 PM

"See you are confusing Genesis 3:14-15 with Deut.28"

"Gen. 3:14-15 involves the prophecy between the progeny of Satan, the Kenites, and the progeny of Eve that leads to Christ."

"Deut. 28 was directed to the elders of Israel [12 tribes of Jacob] only {See Deut. 27:1}. Esau/Edom and the Kenites are not addressed."

You miss my point. Satan uses the curse on the progeny of Cain (and the curse on the Edomites) to make it look like the curses on the true Israelites of Duet 28. Thus using it as an opportunity to call themselves "Israel", and steal the blessings. I figured most people would understand what I meant. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

watchman_2

10-27-2006, 04:52 PM

llm,

Your point is correct to a certain extent, but wrong still.

The Kenites hide among the Jews [which are not Edomites] so that their true identity as Satan's offspring is not discovered. It was that way at the time of Christ [the Pharisees -- John 8:44]and it is the same today and until the return of Christ [Rev. 2:9, 3:9].

Because the Kenites claim to be Jews, they may claim that the curses of Deut. 28 also apply to them as well [otherwise they would blow their cover]. But, the Kenites are not out to steal the birthright/blessings of Jacob [their father Satan blesses them].

Of course, the true Jews [offspring of Judah] have paid a severe price resulting from the Kenites hiding [and pretending to be Jews] among them. The Jews have erroneously been blamed for the crucifixion of Christ. Also, when people complain about the Jews running the banking industry, Hollywood, and other major institutions around the world, they do so out of ignorance. It is the Kenites, which pretend to be Jews, that are running the show.

The integration of the Kenites into Jewish culture is so severe that many true Jews fail to recognize the scourge among them. The Kenites have even corrupted the Jewish religious text to the point that the Talmud is accepted by many true Jews.

The Edomites [Russians -- offspring of Esau] are, in deed, seeking to recover the birthright that Esau sold to Jacob [Jacob did not steal it]. They directly oppose the Lost Tribes of Israel, which comprise of the U.S., Britain, and European democracies. In addition, the Edomites have had a very long confederacy with the Persians/Iran to oppose the Jews.

llm

10-27-2006, 05:36 PM

Well, I disagree with so much of what you have said. If you read Jn 8 you will will see that they said v 33 that they were Abrahams seed but had never been in bondage to any man. Jesus didn't condtitict this point but in v 37 he said "I know you are Abraham's seed..." He then told them they were not Abraham's CHILDERN, but that satan was their father. True Isreal had been in bongage but these people had NOT! Jesus is showing us who they really are. Desecendants of Esau and Cain. Just as John Hycrinous forced all thje Edomites to convert to Talmudic Jewry, and be circumcised. By the time Jesus came along they had completely taken over.

By the way, I did not use the word "BIRTHRIGHT", I used the word "IDENTITY". Jacob stole Esau's identity, and now Esau has stolen Jacobs identity.
The people you call "Jews" are really EdomCain, and Russians are true Judah. If you look at the OT type of Cain Abel and Seth, you will see the NT fulfillment in Herod John and Jesus. Herod was an Edomite and that is where you will find Cain hiding. Although, they did hide amoung true Judah when they were the Khazars.

arron

10-27-2006, 05:51 PM

well i for one am of the tribe of judah, i also am a part of levi. i am a judahite because JESUS is of the tribe of judah and of the tribe of levi( on HIS mothers side ) judah is on His foster fathers side. i am related to the jews for i am a part of THE BRIDES OF CHRIST

llm

10-27-2006, 05:58 PM

Aaron, you could physically claim that as true if you are of Swiss/Russian origin. http://www.bibletime.com/tribe/index.html

watchman_2

10-27-2006, 07:14 PM

llm,

The Bible is clear that Jacob did not steal Esau's birthright.

Gen 25:28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.

Gen 25:29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

Gen 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Gen 25:31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

Gen 25:32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

Gen 25:33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

Gen 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright. 

I expect you to quit making such a false claim in your future posts.

terluvire

10-27-2006, 07:26 PM

That's right Watchman, Esaau sold his birthright.

llm

10-27-2006, 08:34 PM

Again not the "birthright"...Jacob stole Esau's "IDENTIY" when he made himself hairy and unreconizable to his father. Genesis 27:18-19.

Tit for Tat, Now Esau has stolen Jacobs I D E N T I T Y

watchman_2

10-27-2006, 10:27 PM

llm,

You have used the same lame argument regarding John 8 before to another SCer. I did not chime in at that time. However, I will now.

First, it is fitting to understand whom Christ is speaking to at the time. In John 8:2, we learn that Christ went to the temple "and all the people came onto him". There were scribes and Pharisees there [Jhn 8:3, 13, 19, 21]. There are also true Jews and residents of Judea there [Jhn 8:22, 31].

Second, when Jesus spoke directly to the Jews that believed, these Jews are singled out [Jhn 8:31-32] and told that "they shall know the truth and the truth shall make you [them] free".

Third, the term Jews, by definition, includes those that live in Judea.

G2453
&#921;&#787;&#959;&#965;&#948;&#945;&#953;&#834;&# 959;&#962;
Ioudaios
ee-oo-dah'-yos
From G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country); udaean, that is, belonging to Jehudah: - Jew (-ess), of Juda.

Hence, the Kenites would be expected to be at the temple as well as the true Jews.

So, assuming arguendo that your contention is correct, then one is left with the understanding that it was the true Jews [offspring of Judah and Abraham] that plotted to kill Christ.

If so, then we are left with a huge contradiction in the same chapter of the Book of John. Jesus tells us that the true offspring of Abraham look forward to Jesus' arrival.

Joh 8:56 Your5216 father3962 Abraham11 rejoiced21 to2443 see1492 my1699 day:2250 and2532 he saw1492 it, and2532 was glad.5463

Furthermore, Jesus is clear that there is a distinction in fathers of those that love him and those that want to kill him. The word 'father' can only mean progenitor -- not mentor.

G3962
&#960;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#769;&#961;
pate&#772;r
pat-ayr'
Apparently a primary word; a “father” (literally or figuratively, near or more remote): - father, parent.

Even the word 'of' in Jhn 8:44 means 'out from' as in literal origin.

G1537
&#949;&#787;&#954;, &#949;&#787;&#958;
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

cont'd

watchman_2

10-27-2006, 10:29 PM

cont’d

With these glaring contradictions in the scriptures resulting from your interpretation, we are forced to examine the hinge point to your argument in Jhn 8:37.

The 'know' in Jhn 8:37 is G1492,

G1492
&#949;&#953;&#787;&#769;&#948;&#969;
eido&#772;
i'-do
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.

However, the 'know' used in Jhn 8:32 is G1097,

G1097
&#947;&#953;&#957;&#969;&#769;&#963;&#954;&#969 ;
gino&#772;sko&#772;
ghin-oce'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

Hence, the definition which means 'know for a fact' is G1097. Had Christ intended to say that it was a fact that those claiming to be of the seed of Abraham were factually that seed, Christ would have used the G1097 word translated to 'know'.

Instead, the G1492 word for 'know' was used. An examination of the meanings shows 'cannot tell' or 'perceive' as proper uses of the Greek as well.

Further examination of Jhn 8:37 yields the counterarguementative use of the word 'but' [G235],

G235
&#945;&#787;&#955;&#955;&#945;&#769;
alla
al-lah'
Neuter plural of G243; properly other things, that is, (adverbially) contrariwise (in many relations): - and, but (even), howbeit, indeed, nay, nevertheless, no, notwithstanding, save, therefore, yea, yet.

So, it is fair to conclude that the KJV of Jhn 8:37 is best rendered, I perceive that ye are . . .. Jesus is not stating that they factually are the literal offspring of Abraham.

watchman_2

10-27-2006, 10:44 PM

llm,

Jacob did not 'steal' Esau's identity either. Jacob borrowed it in order to secure that which was rightfully Jacob's -- Isaac's passing of the birthright [Abrahamic Covenant]to Jacob. There would have been no need to resort to such tactics if Esau was honest. Esau refused to inform Isaac that Esau sold his birthright.

Esau sold his birthright and tried to collect it as well. The descendants of Esau have spent the time thereafter trying to recover the birthright/blessing. There is no such evidence that Edom is trying to steal Israel's identity.

In fact, with respect to one house of Israel, Judah, Edom has persecuted these people -- not stolen their identity.

The Kenites are not the Edomites.

llm

10-27-2006, 11:19 PM

"Jacob did not 'steal' Esau's identity either. Jacob borrowed it"

Please! is that what you tell your children. u can take it without asking as long as you just borrow it. I guess Esau must be borrowing Jacobs identity just until Christ returns. The story of John Hycrynous is factual. And it is a fact that the Khazars trace their heritage to Mt Sier.

Edomites/Kenites are probably 97 percent 0f the "jews" in Palestne.

watchman_2

10-27-2006, 11:57 PM

Jacob was entitled to the birthright! This is a Biblical truth. I do not consider his tactics to fool old Isaac disingenuine at all. After obtaining Isaac's blessing, Jacob did not pretend to Esau anymore. How in the world do you conclude that Jacob STOLE Esau's identity? He just borrowed it to obtain that which was rightfully his -- the birthright.

It was Esau that messed up and tried to deceive Isaac -- not Jacob.

Esau has not stolen the Jews identity. It is obvious that the Edomites persecute the Jews.

You are a very confused person.

llm

10-28-2006, 03:38 AM

"The 'know' in Jhn 8:37 is G1492,"

Your the confused one. If Jesus says he knows(or precieves something) then you can bet he does. Jesus did not deny that they were Abraham's seed, and he said what he meant. I think that is your problem when it comes to interpeting the word. You judge it instead of letting it judge you. You twist it to make it fit your opinions.

Jacob stole Esau's identity for a purpose, and he lied in the process. So don't try to sugarcoat it to fit your idea. Of course he gave it up after he accomplished his purpose.

18 ¶ And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?
19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me:

Just like Esau has stolen (Oh right, "borrowed") Jacobs identity for a purpose and a time... Issac promised Esau would rule over Jacob for a time. That is what is happening now until Christ returns. And the Kenites know it too, and they are mixed with the rulers.

39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;
40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.
41 ¶ And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

The Edomites are not the Russians.

llm

10-28-2006, 04:45 PM

http://www.meguiar.addr.com/Freedman.htm

this guy larry has some interesting things to say on the subject

watchman_2

10-29-2006, 05:15 AM

llm,

It is abundantly clear to a Bible student that Christ is not saying that those that he was admonishing in John 8:37 are the true offspring of Abraham. If he did, the Bible is in contradiction due to the fact that Jesus goes on thereafter to identify these people the offspring of the first murder, which is Cain, and the father of liars, which is Satan.

So, in order to square the scriptures, the Bible student needs to examine the word 'know' in verse 37 based upon the Greek. When one does, one can see that the KJV rendering is not proper. It is a mistranslation.

So, when you write, You judge it instead of letting it judge you. You twist it to make it fit your opinions.

you are in error. I let the scriptures judge themselves to derive the appropriate rendering of the G1492 that was mistranslated in the KJV.

If I took the English rendering as you and I commonly understand the word 'know' to mean, then the Bible contradicts itself, which means that you and I would be judging the scriptures.

You have it backwards -- you judge the scriptures. I let the Bible prove itself.

You also wrote, Issac promised Esau would rule over Jacob for a time.

We know that Esau serves Jacob.

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

In Gen. 27:39 there was an omission in the KJV rendering before the words ". . . the fatness of the earth . . .". The proper rendering is ". . .of the fatness of the earth . . .". The word "of" meaning "away from".

Accordingly, the proper rendering is ". . . away from the fatness of the earth . . .".

The word 'of' properly rendered in the second clause is ". . . away from the dew of heaven . . .".

Jacob had already received the blessing of the fatness of the earth. Isaac could not give the same blessing to Esau.

If your analysis was correct, there would be another Bible contradiction. See Gen. 27:41. There would be no need for Esau to hate Jacob if Esau received the same blessing of the fatness of the earth.

You need to do your homework!

llm

10-30-2006, 12:37 AM

It's simple, even if you refuse to see it. They were Abrahams seed but had never been in bondage to any man (Esau). We know Israel was in bondage to Egypt.

llm

10-30-2006, 12:47 AM

Although I know how you like to change the word to fit your meaning, here is what the lxx says, and I would say it is the most accurate version.

And Isaac being troubled, Esau cried aloud and
wept. 39 And Isaac his father answered and said to him,
Behold, thy dwelling shall be of the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above. 40 And thou shalt
live by thy sword, and shalt serve thy brother; and there
shall be a time when thou shalt break and loosen his yoke
from off thy neck.

llm

10-30-2006, 12:53 AM

So what it is saying is there will come a time when Esau will have temporary dominion. But hey, we wait for the Kingdom of Christ and for all believers to be perfected together (Hebrews 11). Then we shall have the dominion forever.

kimberlyfredrick

10-30-2006, 04:55 AM

This looks like a very interesting discussion. But I am way too tired to digest it all tonight. Iwill be home in MS all week and then leaving for TN by this weekend. It looks good guys. TN looks real, real good!

I sure did miss you guys this week!

watchman_2

10-30-2006, 05:09 AM

llm,

We know that Abraham is not the descendant of the first murder -- Cain. Hence, when Christ identifies those people in John 8:37, he is not saying they are the descendants of Abraham.

You wrote, I know how you like to change the word to fit your meaning.

I don't chage the word fit my meanings at all. The Holy Scriptures were only translated to English -- not written in English. Our duty as Christians is to square the scriptures in order to obtain the true interpretation of scriptures.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Your interpretations result in Biblical contradictions -- that is why they are incorrect.

With respect to Gen. 27:40,

Gen 27:40 And by5921 thy sword2719 shalt thou live,2421 and shalt serve5647 thy brother;251 and it shall come to pass1961 when834 thou shalt have the dominion,7300 that thou shalt break6561 his yoke5923 from off4480, 5921 thy neck.6677

your interpretation leaves us with another Biblical interpretation. You claim that the seed of Esau will have dominion over the seed of Jacob.

Well, lets look at part of the Abrahamic Covenant:

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Accordingly, since God's covenant went to Jacob, then God is a liar if your interpretation is correct. The seed of Esau will never have dominion over the seed of Jacob because the seed of Jacob will always possess the gates of the seed of Esau.

So, we need to go back to Gen. 27:40 and see if another interpretation applies. Let's start at the word 'dominion',

H7300
&#1512;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491;
ru&#770;d
rood
A primitive root; to tramp about, that is, ramble (free or disconsolate): - have the dominion, be lord, mourn, rule.

As you can see, 'have the dominion' is only one rendering. A better rendering might be 'ramble free'. This rendering is more appropriate with something that has just shed the yoke imposed upon it by its master.

This way the scriptures are squared and there is no contradiction with Gen. 22:17. Esau never has dominion over Jacob.

terluvire

10-30-2006, 05:22 AM

Very very good post Watchman!

llm

10-30-2006, 06:25 AM

See there you go again, It is not talking about who Abraham descended from, but who descended from Abraham. Sorry to be the one to inform you but Israel has been losing control of their GATES for some time now. Like the Panama Canal...

llm

10-30-2006, 06:27 AM

See Dueteronomy Chapter 28

watchman_2

10-30-2006, 06:42 AM

llm,

My first paragraph was in reference to your first of two posts. The rest was in connection to the second post.

I apologize for the confusion.

Deut. 28 has nothing to do with Esau specifically.

llm

10-30-2006, 08:54 AM

You know, even Jesus made the distinction in Jn 8 between the "seed" (sperm) and the children, (the children of promise). It is a historical fact that the Edomites converted to Talmudic Judaisim through John Hycranus, and the Khazars trace their roots to Mt Sier.

Duet. 28 refers to the curses that will happen to Israel if they don't follow God. So your reference to Gen 22:17 is conditional.

"Well, lets look at part of the Abrahamic Covenant:

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

kimberlyfredrick

10-30-2006, 09:08 AM

Hey, just jumping in here now. Did not read all of the posts.

Llm,

Are you talking about the sea gates? I believe the scriptures refer to the sea gates...that is were God fullfilled the covenant to Eupraim and Mannasseh(Great Brittian and America and their 'lands')How these to 'brothers' became heirs to the promise. How they became powerful and wealthy and Christian Countries. Is that what you are saying?

How does this tie-end with SC Doctrine? There are some similarities are they?

watchman_2

10-30-2006, 04:03 PM

llm,

The BLESSINGS as well as the cursings of Deut. 28 apply to the people individually. Hence, one could do the 'ifs' required to receive the blessings and one could do the 'ifs' that will get them the cursings. Such blessings and cursings still apply today.

Yes, collectively as a nation, Israel was allowed to be destroyed because Israel did not do as the Lord directed them.

However, the Abrahamic Covenant did not go away with the dispersion of the 12 tribes. For instance, the offspring of Abraham are very numerous. The king line that was given to Judah has continued on through the daughters of Hezekiah [whom Jeremiah took to Britain]. Likewise, the covenant was passed on by Jacob to the sons of Joseph.

You wrote, You know, even Jesus made the distinction in Jn 8 between the "seed" (sperm) and the children, (the children of promise).

You will have to explain this claim. Please provide your scriptural references. I don't understand and am unable to respond to you.

I am not questioning that the Russians trace back to the Edomites of Mt. Seir.

llm

10-30-2006, 04:19 PM

If you look at the OT types where Jacob re-entered the promised land, when he wrestled the angel, the first thing Israel had to do was go through Esau or Edom. It is a prophetic type. In Revelation one of the last 2 great powers on the earth before Christ returns is the Great Red Dragon. Which is Edom mixed with Cain.

"I am not questioning that the Russians trace back to the Edomites of Mt. Seir."

The Khazars were not Russians. They were Edomites, and Kenites, that became the Ashkenazi,
which make up the majority of "jews" in the world today.

llm

10-30-2006, 04:40 PM

Sperm is different than children. Abraham had plenty of seed through Jacob, Esau, Katurah, but only Jacob and his descendants are given the inheritence, which is Christ. Jesus uses 2 different words in Jn 8 to show there is a difference.

llm

10-30-2006, 04:45 PM

Oh and lets not for get old Ishmael...

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation

arron

10-30-2006, 04:51 PM

scattered or amatthered the jews will come forth one day all of them every tribe and stand in THE KINGDOM OF OUR LORD

watchman_2

10-30-2006, 06:27 PM

llm,

There you go again -- trying to link the Kenites with the Edomites. We have been through this subject so many times and you still have not figured it out yet.

Kenites are the sons of Cain. Cain's father was Satan. Edomites are the sons of Esau. Esau traces back to Adam. Their only common ancestry is Eve whom was the mother of both Cain and Seth. The Kenites and the Edomites are separate people as referenced in the Bible.

Sure, there may have been intermixing of these peoples throughout history [as there has been with all of the races/peoples]; however, the Biblical references remain separate.

In fact, the Bible is quite clear that the Kenites pretend to be Jews -- not Edomites. The Edomites persecute Jews, as well as the Kenites [by default].

The offspring of the Edomites are primarily the Russian people of today. The prophecies given to Edom apply to the Russian nation.

Please provide the John 8 scriptures to back your other claim.

llm

10-31-2006, 12:18 AM

They are mixed regardless of what you want to call them. Call them 'jews" if you want. If a son of Edom marries a daughter of Cain, or vice versa. Cain has always mixed with the races, unless satan and Eve had a daughter as well...
Edomites are primarly the Khazar, Ahkenazi, (see Arthur Koestler's 13th tribe)mixed with Kenites.

Jn 8 is very simple. They said they were Abrahams seed and had never been in bondage to any man. Jesus said he knew they were Abrahams seed, but they were children of the devil. Jn 8 speaks for itself. It is written.

Your just trying to spin the facts to fit your false teaching. You should really do a second edition of the Shepherds Bible, and make all your appopriate changes from Gen to Rev. to document your spin more clearly.

watchman_2

10-31-2006, 01:03 AM

llm,

I have already demonstrated that John 8:37 is not stating that those people were the literal offspring of Abraham. They only claim to be the offspring in order to hide their true identity -- Kenites.

Look at the definition of 'seed' -

G4690
&#963;&#960;&#949;&#769;&#961;&#956;&#945;
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.

As you can see, it means offspring. Hence, your claim that 'seed' and 'children' are somehow different is without merit. I already showed you the definition of 'of' in John 8:44 being 'out from', as in origin, of these people. They are the devil's offspring. There is no contradiction in the Bible here.

A daughter of Cain that marries another race/people becomes that people -- not vice versa. Kenites, by definition, are the sons of Cain. Likewise, if Edomites married a son of Cain and produced a male offspring, that offspring would also be a Kenite -- not an Edomite.

The Biblical prophecies against the Edomites do not apply to the Kenites.

You wrote, You should really do a second edition of the Shepherds Bible, and make all your appopriate changes from Gen to Rev. to document your spin more clearly

Are you claiming that the KJV is the inerrant/inspired word of God?? If not, then your claim is equally ridiculous to most of your theological positions.

plow_deep

10-31-2006, 05:59 AM

Secular history isnt nearly as reliable as Bible scripture. Often political and personal motives blur the facts on any given subject. This should be taken into account by any researcher.

Just something to think about.

5. Question: If the Ashkenazi (European) Jews are NOT Descended from the Khazars, etc, why do some Jewish sources say they are?

Answer: Some Jews can sometimes be as anti-Jewish as anybody else. Sometimes such claims are genuine mistakes and at other times they are ideaologically motivated.

http://www.britam.org/Questions/QuesJudah.html#NOT

Arthur Koestler wrote "The Thirteenth Tribe" claiming that all European Jews were descended from the Khazars whom he said were a Turkish Tribe. He was wrong. His motive appears to have been the desire (as he himself said) to absolve the European Jews from the death of Jesus and thus free them (he thought) from the claims of anti-semites.

[Deuteronomy 16:19] THOU SHALT NOT WREST JUDGMENT; THOU SHALT NOT RESPECT PERSONS, NEITHER TAKE A GIFT [Hebrew: "SHOCHAD" meaning "bribe"] FOR A GIFT [bribe] DOTH BLIND THE EYES OF THE WISE, AND PERVERT THE WORDS OF THE RIGHTEOUS.

We should be aware of such potentially negative tendencies both in ourselves and in others. Brit-Am also has an interest in proving its case but we attempt to admit any legitimate objection to points we make. Ultimately the truth serves itself. If a belief is true then even points that may seem to go against it when properly examined turn out to be strengthening factors.

llm

10-31-2006, 04:13 PM

"I have already demonstrated that John 8:37 is not stating that those people were the literal offspring of Abraham"

No you did not. Jesus did not say "I know you are not Abrahams seed." You are telling a blatant lie about Jesus own words.

llm

10-31-2006, 04:16 PM

If anything, Jesus said they were Abrahams seed, but they were CHILDREN of the devil, because they did the WORKS of the devil.

arron

10-31-2006, 06:51 PM

absolutly amen

kimberlyfredrick

10-31-2006, 07:47 PM

Hey Arron....Llm believes in the kennites....
Can I get a amen to that Bro...ROTFLMAO!

watchman_2

10-31-2006, 08:25 PM

llm,

I showed you that the word translated to 'know' in John 8:37 was a mistranslation in the KJV as we understand the word 'know' to mean today.

Since Christ speaks with absolute knowledge of whom those people were descendants of, He would have used the G1097 word translated to 'know', as was used in John 8:32, if those people were the true and literal descendants of Abraham.

Since Christ used the G1492 word that was [mis]translated to 'know', we can see that one of the other renderings may be and is proper in John 8:37.

As I pointed out, your interpretation of these scriptures leaves the student with a Bible contradiction that cannot be resolved. Hence, your interpretation must be and is wrong.

If you look closely, in John 8:33, these people identify themselves. They state that they were never in bondage. Well, we know Abraham's literal offspring, through Jacob, all went into bondage. Hence, those people were only pretending to be the offspring of Abraham or were descendants of Abraham thru Ishmael or Keturah, or of Esau thru Isaac. In John 8:44, Christ identifies them as the Kenites, whom only pretend to be offspring of Abraham.

I already showed you that the word 'of' is used in connection with origination, better translated 'out from'. The word 'children' means progeny.

So, the only conclusion that squares the scriptures is that the word 'know' in John 8:37 is a poor rendering by the KJV translators. I will post the Strong's again for your edification.

G1492
&#949;&#953;&#787;&#769;&#948;&#969;
eido&#772;
i'-do
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.

Your entire messed-up theology is premised upon this mistranslation, which enables you to confuse the offspring of Satan with the Jews -- just like your neo-Nazi friends/mentors [Roger Hathaway]. You maintain your position despite the fact that your interpretation results in many Bible contradictions just so that you can maintain your hatred of the Jews.

And, don't give me that false claim that you don't hate the Jews. You simply call a different people Jews. Plow_deep showed you the holes in your logic.

llm

10-31-2006, 08:42 PM

Now your putting words in Jesus mouth telling him what words he should have used, it is amazing how you pick out words and emphasize those and make up stuff with the definations. It still means "I know", not "I know you are not". Not just the JKV uses it, but so do most other english translations like Tyndale, MVT, AST, etc...Jesus knew they were Abrahams descendants, but not Israel. They were Esau. All the Edomites had been circumcised and became jews through John Hycranus. That is an historical fact, as well. So you believe what ever you want.

watchman_2

10-31-2006, 09:39 PM

llm,

You wrote, Now your putting words in Jesus mouth telling him what words he should have used.

Now, you do lie when you make such a claim. I have never 'put words in Jesus mouth'. I just showed you that the KJV rendering is wrong. In fact, another better rendering for the G1492 is 'understand'.

If you look at the word 'but' in John 8:37, you will see the counter-argumentative intent.

G235
&#945;&#787;&#955;&#955;&#945;&#769;
alla
al-lah'
Neuter plural of G243; properly other things, that is, (adverbially) contrariwise (in many relations): - and, but (even), howbeit, indeed, nay, nevertheless, no, notwithstanding, save, therefore, yea, yet.

Hence, a review of John 8:37 provides the student with a proper interpretation that Christ is countering the statement made by these people in John 8:33.

Christ could even be speaking sarcastically to these people when He states, "I know [cannot tell, perceive, or understand -- all sarcastically] that ye are Abraham's seed".

It would be like me saying, "llm, you are a good Bible student". If someone just read my words and took that phrase literally and alone, they would think that I am complimenting you. Well, anyone that observes the totallity of my discourse with you would know that I am not complimenting you at all, but deriding you for poor scholarship on your theology.

Of course, you are lashing out at me because your entire neo-Nazi agenda is premised upon labeling the Jews as the offspring of Satan. You and your Nazi friends can never get to that position, scripturally, without bastardizing John 8 as you have attempted here.

llm

10-31-2006, 11:52 PM

Your the one accusing these "jews" of being the literal offspring of satan by saying they are kenites. I'm saying they are primarly Edomites and the descendants of Abraham. The words of Jesus and history back this up, as I have indicated above.

llm

11-01-2006, 12:01 AM

Also in Jn 8:56 Jesus says to these same seed or descendants of Abraham; "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad."

watchman_2

11-01-2006, 02:18 AM

nice try -- see John 8:52. Christ is speaking to the Jews.

The offspring of the first murder, Cain, and the father of liars, Satan, is the one and only Kenites that were pretending to be Jews/offspring of Abraham. The Edomites [offspring of Esau], in no way, can be considered in that group at the temple unless they converted to the religion of the Israelites.

Christ only identifies Jews and Kenites in John 8. There is no statement therein that could be inferred to mean that Edomites were also there.

llm

11-01-2006, 10:39 PM

Jesus is talking to the same people from the beginning to the end of this conversation. The ones who said they had never been in bondage to any man. The ones to whom he said "I know you are Abrahams seed", to "Your father Abraham". And yes the Edomites did convert enmass through John Hycranus.

JN 8 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who had believed Him,

33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day, and he saw it and he was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, having gone through their midst, and so passed by.

llm

11-01-2006, 10:46 PM

So maybe you're making some progress, Watchman. From "I precieve you think you are abrahams seed but you are not" to "I know you are Abrahams seed." Just like Jesus said, when he also said "Abraham your father". I know you'd love this to be the definative chapter on the kenites but it is not.

watchman_2

11-01-2006, 11:05 PM

See John 8:2.

Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

Let's look at the word 'all',

G3956
&#960;&#945;&#834;&#962;
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Definitely, there is nothing associated with the word 'all' that restricts the crowd that Christ was speaking to as one group.

Let's look at the word 'people',

G2992
&#955;&#945;&#959;&#769;&#962;
laos
lah-os'
Apparently a primary word; a people (in general; thus differing from G1218, which denotes one’s own populace): - people.

As you can see from the italicized portion of the definition, the word 'people' that was used here refers to many types of people and not one specific race/tribe.

Hence, when it is written 'Jews' in John 8 one can ascertain that the more generalized meaning of 'resident of Judea' is more appropriate than the offspring of Judah.

At the time of Christ, there were several different populations of people residing in Judea. However, we know for sure that true Jews and Kenites [fake Jews] would have cause to be at the temple.

One can only speculate whether converted Edomites, Midianites, Ishmaelites, etc were there as well. Christ did not identify all of these peoples in John 8 -- only the literal seed of Abraham and the Kenites, which are not of Abraham.

So, when you write, Jesus is talking to the same people from the beginning to the end of this conversation, you are clearly wrong. One cannot be the progeny of Abraham and a Kenite -- literally impossible.

llm

11-01-2006, 11:39 PM

he is talking to the "Jews".
(by the way, since you like Greek so much, all the oldest manuscripts omit Jn 7:53-Jn 8:11,and do not contain the woman caught in adultry story. It was added after the fact...) Here is where the manuscripts supposedly start.

12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He that follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13 Therefore the Pharisees said to Him, "You testify about Yourself; Your testimony is not valid."
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I should testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.
15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; because I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is valid.
18 I am the One testifying about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you knew Me, you would also know My Father."
20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, while teaching in the temple; and no one seized Him, for His time had not yet come.
21 Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."
22 So the Jews said, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going you cannot come'?"
23 And He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
25 Then they said to Him, "Who are You?" And Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these things I say to the world."

llm

11-01-2006, 11:44 PM

27 They did not know that He was speaking to them about the Father.
28 Therefore Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and from Myself I do nothing; but just as My Father taught Me, these things I speak.
29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, because I always do the things pleasing to Him."
30 While He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, truly you are My disciples.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, 'You will become free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly I say to you, that everyone that practices sin is a slave of sin.
35 And a slave does not remain in the house forever, but a son remains forever.
36 Therefore if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free.
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word finds no place in you.
38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

llm

11-01-2006, 11:45 PM

40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has spoken to you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
41 You do the works of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God."
42 Therefore Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth and have come from God; nor have I come from Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand what I say? Because you are unable to hear My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say well that You are a Samaritan, and You have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks it and who judges.
51 Most assuredly I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall by no means experience death."
52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham and the prophets died, and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word he shall by no means taste death.'
53 "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? Also the prophets died. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing. It is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is our God.
55 And yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I would say that I do not know Him, I would be like you, a liar; but I do know Him, and I keep His word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day, and he saw it and he was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, having gone through their midst, and so passed by.

llm

11-02-2006, 12:33 AM

He is talking to the Jews.
He is talking to the descendants of Abraham.
He is talking to those
Who had never been in bondage to any man.

llm

11-02-2006, 12:39 AM

He is talking to the Edomites
Who took over Herods Temple
And mixed with the Kenites
It's just that plain and simple.

watchman_2

11-02-2006, 12:53 AM

llm,

I wonder why the LXX omitted those verses -- very interesting.

I have yet to bring a very important fact to show you that your interpretation is wrong.

In John 8:37,

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

the definition of 'ye are' sheds light on the mystery.

G2075
&#949;&#787;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#769;
este
es-teh'
Second person plural present indicative of G1510; ye are: - be, have been, belong.

The 'second person' usage of this word means that it is not Christ saying they are of Abraham's seed, but it is those people saying it.

I previously posted that the word 'know' is more properly rendered 'understand'.

Accordingly, the rendering in today's English should be,

"I understand that you claim to be progeny of Abraham; but . . . "

This should bring you out of Babylon [confusion] on this topic and separate you from the neo-Nazi Jew-hating folks that misinterpret this scripture.

llm

11-02-2006, 01:01 AM

"I wonder why the LXX omitted those verses -- very interesting"

the lxx is different from all the greek new testament manuscripts that were found. the lxx was the old testament.

I think that when Jesus said "Your father Abraham..." all your little straws of contention burnt up.

llm

11-02-2006, 01:10 AM

Now if you're asking me why the kenites added the story of the woman caught in adultry in Jn 8, then I would guess it was to alter the meaning of an old testament word. But that is another subject.

watchman_2

11-02-2006, 01:13 AM

My apologies for messing that up [and I knew better as well]. Yes, the LXX is the Greek OT.

Have you independently analyzed the reasons one side would have for adding the scriptures or one side for deleting them?

If so, perhaps you could share your analysis.

llm

11-02-2006, 02:00 AM

All the best and oldest new testaments found do not have that story in them, and there have been thousands of old nt's found. Only a few later and questionable ones contain that story. So what does it matter what I think. It happened to have gotten added to our modern nt without question, so it was never deleted, although it probably should be. There is plenty on the internet about it to get the picture if you care to do your own digging.

watchman_2

11-02-2006, 02:31 AM

I will do some digging. Thanks for the info!

I see that Bullinger makes reference to this mystery in the Companion Bible. He does note that there are earlier manuscripts that delete it than that show it; however, the earliest reference was to the Bishop of Hieropolis (Phrygia)referring to it in year 130.

watchman_2

11-02-2006, 04:17 PM

With respect to the omitted or added text of John 7:53 to 8:11, it appears to me that the omission is incorrect. The continuity of the scriptures cannot be maintained if these scriptures are omitted.

In John 8:13, we see the Pharisees speaking onto Jesus. The 'them' in John 8:12 refers to the Pharisees, which means that the Pharisees had to be there in order for Christ to speak to them.

If you go back beyond John 7:52, you will see that the Pharisees are not there. In verse 32, one can see that the Pharisees only heard of Christ's teachings and, thereby, sent officers [servants] to take Christ.

In verse 45, the Pharisees question the officers as to why they did not bring Christ. Clearly, the Pharisees were not in Christ's presence in John 7.

So, if the omission is incorrect, then the question rises as to why the omission was made in the first place.

llm

11-02-2006, 05:10 PM

the oldest greek manuscript the vaticanus(codex b, 4th centry ad)does not contain this part of Jn. The same is true of the sinaiticus (codex 5th century ad)the 2nd oldest greek manuscript. The 3rd oldest the Alexandrian (codex a), and the ephraem (codex c). along with these 4 oldest, there are dozens of fragmentary texts...it is also absent from the oldest syriac, bohairic,armenian, sahadic,pe****tic, and old georgian manuscripts. it is absent from the gothic versions and the best of the old latin ones. No greek patrisitic fathers comment on this passage prior to the 12th centry.
the first text to contain this passage is codex Bazae. Bazae is rarely relied upon by biblical scholars. It is used only as an early example of the developement of so called "westerm texts."
keep digging...

llm

11-02-2006, 08:25 PM

The question is not why it was omitted in the first place, but why did the culprit Jerome include it...

watchman_2

11-02-2006, 10:54 PM

According to Bullinger, the manuscriptst deleting these verses are older than those containing them. The oldest containing them dates back to the 6th century.

However, the Vulgate(383), which predates those that omitted them, except with the possible exception of the Vatican, in the 4th century.

Jerome testified that it is contained in many Greek and Latin codices. The Memphitic is shown to predate those that omit them.

As I pointed out in my previous post, the scriptures do not carry through without them.

So, the question still remains as to why these scriptures were deleted.

llm

11-03-2006, 01:29 AM

The insertion of this passage must have been completed late 3rd early 4th century. This is true for several reasons. Early Latin manuscripts that predate Jerome (347-420)have been found containing this, while others do not. And of course it is in the Vulgate. All these early manuscripts are of course taken from "western texts" of the greek nt. The ancestors of Bazae. Therefore they cannot be weighed above the early Greek manuscripts belonging to the neutral text that do not contain the passage. However the existence of these Latin manuscripts depend on Jerome himself. He is the earliest person known to quote from or mention this passage in Jn. The supposed scholars of the Companion Bible say this passage does not rest solely on the sholders of Jerome by purporting that Eusebius(315-320) makes reference to to an earlier writer named Papias who supposedly quoted this passage. However the texts of Papias that are reported to contain this passage do not themselves exist. And when you examine the writings of Eusebis cited, you find no reference to John or the writings of John, and there is no reference to a woman accused of adultery being brought before Jesus. Therefore, the burden of proof rests solely and completely on Jerome.(AST app.4)And Jeromes laundry list of corruptions seem to go on forever.

plow_deep

11-03-2006, 10:25 AM

I tend to agree with St. Augustine on the matter.
Besides, Its obvious to me when you take out the verses, it leaves the rest of the text rather lacking. It flows much better with it in.

John 7:53-8:11, The Pericope De Adultera

This passage is designated as the Pericope De Adultera, referring to the woman caught in the act of adultery. The passage is included in numerous uncials such as D05, G, H, K, M, U, and G. Among the minuscule or cursive manuscripts it is in 28, 700, 892, 1009, 1010, 1071, 1079, 1195, 1216, 1344, 1365, 1546, 1646, 2148, and 2174. Most Greek manuscripts contain this passage. It also is in early translations such as the Bohairic Coptic Version, the Syriac Palestinian Version and the Ethiopic Version, all of which date from the second to the sixth centuries. It is clearly the reading of the majority of the Old Latin manuscripts and Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The passage has patristic support: Didascalia (third century), Ambrosiaster (forth century), Ambrose (forth century), the Apostolic Constitutions (which are the largest liturgical collections of writings from Antioch Syria in about 380 AD), Jerome (420 AD), and Augustine (430 AD).

Most textual scholars consider the evidence against it to be overwhelming and reject the reading as original. [1] Yet, the passage still finds its way into the text of the majority of contemporary translations. Unlike John 5:4, which is confined to a footnote, this passage is retained in the text but usually separated with brackets (as with Mark 16:9-20). If the evidence against it is so convincing and the text is not considered genuine, should not this entire passage be removed from the text itself as other shorter passages are? If one is to remove smaller sections, would not consistency demand the same be done with larger sections if the amount of textual evidence is either the same or greater? Perhaps it is a matter of acceptance. Since this passage is beloved by the majority of the Bible reading public, to remove it from the text would be unthinkable.

cont.

plow_deep

11-03-2006, 10:28 AM

cont.

Supporters of the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text, on the other hand, have soundly defended the authenticity of this passage. [2] The vast majority of all known Greek manuscripts contain this section. It is clearly part of the Traditional Text. Additionally, the internal evidence demonstrates that this passage is original. If we remove it we have a very erratic jump in textual thought.

The question arises as to why this passage was ever omitted. We find the answer in church history. Augustine makes an astounding statement concerning the authenticity of the passage. After citing the forgiving phrase of Christ, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more," Augustine writes:

"This proceeding, however, shocks the minds of some weak believers, or rather unbelievers and enemies of the Christian faith: inasmuch that, after (I suppose) of its giving their wives impunity of sinning, they struck out from their copies of the Gospel this that our Lord did in pardoning the woman taken in adultery: as if He granted leave of sinning, Who said, Go and sin no more!" [3]

Augustine implies some fearful scribes who thought the inclusion might lead to adultery omitted this passage. This argument not only seems logical, but also consistent with human nature. It is, at least, as good as modern scholarship's view that the passage was added as a piece of oral tradition apart from inspiration. [4]

[1] Metzger, A Textual Commentary On The Greek New Testament, 187.

[2] See Hills, 150-159. John W. Burgon "Pericope De Adultera" ed. David Otis Fuller, Counterfeit Or Genuine (Grand Rapids: Grand Rapids International Publications, 1975) 133-158. Arthur L. Farstad, The New King James Version In The Great Tradition (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989) 113-114.

[3] St. Augustine, De Conjug. Adult., II:6.

[4] Metzger, A Textual Commentary On The Greek New Testament, 188.

llm

11-03-2006, 05:09 PM

Augustine misses the point. The command against martial infidelity was already covered in "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife." The word "adultery" in the OT Septuagint meant "mongrelization". Jerome had Jewish tutors, and he either wrote the passage himself or accepted it blindly from one of his teachers. So why would Jerome go to such great lengths to insert this passage? The reason is simple and obvious to both Jerome and his Jewish teachers. It would alter the meaning of the word adultery from mongrelization to maritial infidelity, and give the Catholic church precedence to do the same. However, the OT Septuagint states a person caught in "uoixos" is to be put to death. So this passage quotes Jesus as contradicting clear and explicit statements of the OT (lxx). And nowhere in the OT did God add an addendum to the commands that you had to be sinless to stone an offender in obedience to his word.

llm

11-03-2006, 06:32 PM

Try standing before the judge accused of murder and say, "Judge if you are without sin then cast the first stone." What a joke. And yet we fall for it. This seems to be a favorite verse of the devils children to justify their sin and misdeeds.
The bible says judge not lest ye be judged. So if your gonna judge you better ponder all the evidence, or you will be judged.

watchman_2

11-03-2006, 06:53 PM

llm,

I will defer to plow_deep on ancient texts. However, if your position is that John 7:53 through 8:11 do not belong in the Bible, then you need to be able to square the scriptures without those verses.

As I earlier pointed out, John 8:12-13 does not square with John 7. How do you square the scriptures?

Or, are you going to hold to an interpretation that leaves the Bible in contradiction like you did in John 8:37?

llm

11-03-2006, 07:51 PM

There is no condrition in jn 8:37. Jesus said "I know yor are Abraham's seed", and then confirms it in verse 56 when he says "Your father Abraham..."

watchman_2

11-03-2006, 08:43 PM

llm,

Can the facts ever penetrate your skull of mush? Or, are you a hopeless case that must be ignored?

The seed of Cain are clearly distinguished from the seed of Abraham. The two cannot possible be the same. Abraham traces his lineage back to Adam. Cain is the offspring of Satan.

So, both groups are present in John 8 as Christ clearly distinguishes between the two. I have demonstrated thoroughly and repeatedly that in John 8:37, Christ is not calling the Kenites offspring of Abraham. The Biblical lineage clearly establishes this fact.

I guess that you don't believe in the Bible. Otherwise, you wouldn't keep coming back here with the same lame and disproven arguments.

llm

11-03-2006, 08:57 PM

You are not correct. He is primarly talking to thr Edomite Jews here. He calls them "children of the devil" because they do the works of the devil". He is not saying they are literal serpent seed. This is clear for those who read it for what it says.

watchman_2

11-03-2006, 09:55 PM

It has already been established that Christ was not speaking of 'works', but was speaking of 'literal' offspring. This is clear to anyone who interprets the scriptures by the words used in the original language of the manuscripts.

You will continue to deny the truth in order to maintain your neo-Nazi Jew-hating beliefs. Good luck!

llm

11-03-2006, 11:05 PM

I know you are Abrahams seed...
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day...
-signed, Jesus.

You lose the argument so you resort to name calling. Pity.

watchman_2

11-04-2006, 01:20 AM

Your Jew-hating neo-Nazi beliefs are well established here. So, I am not calling you anything other than what you have inferred upon yourself.

No argument has been lost by anyone except yourself. You have yet to show how John 7:52 connects to John 8:12 if the scriptures in between in the KJV do not belong there.

And you have yet to prove how your interpretation of John 8:37 is squared with John 8:44.

You skip around to avoid the serious questions. What's your next diversion -- your fixed earth belief??

kimberlyfredrick

11-04-2006, 01:32 AM

Oh no you 2!!! You were getting along sooo well!

What about a good nights rest and try again tomorrow...no?

llm

11-04-2006, 01:56 AM

I love the tribe of Judah. I don't hate anyone. Jesus tells us to even love our enemies.

llm

11-04-2006, 04:39 AM

It flows better without 7:53 to 8:11.
In addition to the evidence of the manuscripts, there is information gained from the analysis of the text itself. It breaks the continuity of Jn 7:52 and 8:12 and it contains many words and phrases that are nowhwere else in John. Thus the internal evidence alone that 7:53-8:11 condradicts other scriptures, this passage is shown to be spurious. But more than that we have the evidence of every ancient unical manuscript that is considered to have even the least amount of credibility.

watchman_2

11-04-2006, 06:25 AM

llm,

Plow_deep has provided you evidence to the contrary regarding the deleted scriptures.

I have shown you that, in John 8:12, the 'them' that Christ is speaking to are the Pharisees. I have shown you that, in John 7:45-52, the Pharisees are not there in Christ's presence.

Hence, the only conclusion that one can reach is that which transpires in John 7 is a different occurrence that that which transpires in John 8:12 et al.

So, irrespective of the scriptures regarding the adultress, John 8:1-2 are necessary for the continuity of John 8:12. If those holier than thous at the time who didn't want it be known that Christ forgives [the true lesson of John 8:3-11] wanted to block this teaching, only John 8:3-11 would have been deleted. There was no need to delete 7:53 to 8:2.

Those that deleted the scriptures messed up.

Your blanket statement, It flows better without 7:53 to 8:11, cannot be supported by the scriptures.

plow_deep

11-04-2006, 07:33 AM

llm,

Try standing before the judge accused of murder and say, "Judge if you are without sin then cast the first stone."

How can you compare the sinless Son of God, to a common Judge? A common Judge that is just another man in the fallen sinful state we all exist in while we are in the flesh? That astounds me.

The message being taught is, "Go and sin no more".

Havent you wondered what Jesus was writing on the ground? Did He not know the minds of all who stood before him? It sure makes me think, and I'm glad the verses are in my bible.

Kim,

I love your light-heartedness, you make me smile alot...thanks!

Peace

plow_deep

11-04-2006, 09:27 AM

More food for thought...I found this excellent and I cant help myself when it comes to defending the KJV as the inspired Word of God.

JOHN 8:1-11 The story of the woman taken in the act of adultery.

Most New Versions: The story is omitted or footnoted.

Comment: If the woman were caught in the very act, where was the man? God required that both should be stoned (Lev.20:10; Deu.22:22-24). Jesus knew the entire matter was a set up for the purpose of placing Him on the horns of a dilemma. If He said stone her according to the Law of the O.T., He would be in trouble with the Roman authorities. If He said to release her from the demand of the Law, the people would reject His claims as Messiah for Messiah would never go against the Word of God.

cont.

plow_deep

11-04-2006, 09:31 AM

cont.

One reason that so many religious leaders and laymen oppose the inclusion of these verses, called the pericope de adultera in theological-scholastic circles ("pericope" is a short selection from a book), is due to their lack of understanding it and thus an inability to properly exegete the story. The forgiveness which Christ bestowed upon the adulteress is contrary to the conviction of many that the punishment for adultery should be very severe. For most, the solution is to merely conclude that Jesus' coming to earth has somehow nullified the Laws of God; that God no longer punishes sin but has now "become" a God of mercy, love and compassion. The story seems to offer too many inexplicable contradictory problems for most, and since they cannot understand the verses - they raise their vote to exclude them from the Scriptures. It requires great humility to admit lack of insight. Such men rarely will humble their intellect before God, constantly labeling paradoxes contained within the covers of the Bible as "unfortunate scribal errors" simply because their wisdom has failed to unravel the paradox.

Far better to confess lack of scholarship, understanding or lack of revelation than to insist, as most do, that the short-coming must be with the Scriptures themselves (Man's pride and ego must be served at all cost!). Many of us are self deceived, imagining that we "believe" the Word of God. The Lord has deliberately written as He has to bring us to the point of honesty. When we are confronted with seemingly contradictory places in Scripture, what is our response? The response reveals the actual condition of the heart and ego. Do we now still believe or do we place our intellects above the Word, deciding that because we could not solve the apparent discrepancy - the Scripture must contain error.

Although not claiming inerrant insight into all such matters, we do not allow any errors within the Holy Writ - scribal or otherwise. We confess ignorance, even hardness of heart, in areas that result in our lack of revelation from above. We cannot explain all paradoxical parts of Scripture, but in calm assurance we rest in faith that the solutions are present within the pages of Scripture itself. No outside information need be brought to bear on the problem to "add light" to the Word. How does one add light to blinding revelation?

cont.