2 bodies natural and spiritual [Archive]

terluvire

11-14-2006, 08:03 PM

I thought we could start a thread specifically designated to the discussion our flesh and spiritual bodies.

I would like to start with this excerpt from GTP's post #954 on the "The REAL threat to Christianity" thread:

The problem I see with this argument is that the phrase, "the second death," does not automatically imply that a person's body, soul, and spirit are annihilated forever. This is just an assumption that some people have made, and the problem with this assumption is that death does not equal annihilation. For example, at physical death our bodies die and eventually decay, but they are not annihilated forever. The molecules that made up our bodies continue to exist, and in fact our bodies will be re-formed when we are resurrected at the Rapture (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

To be honest Mitch, I have never heard that taught before. Now I have heard preachers teach that we will collect our bodies, our bones, when Christ returns. Did you make that statement above because of members asking: if your body is burned, where the is nothing left to collect; how do they collect their bodies? I'm not asking to mock. I'm asking sincerely how you came to that conclusion?

I have never heard from God's Word that we are going to collect the molecules, which are left after our bodies decompose, and reform our bodies.

God says we have 2 bodies:
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We will not need our flesh bodies when Christ returns. We will have our spiritual bodies.

Also, when a person dies and leaves their flesh body, what body do they abode in while waiting for judgment day, regardless if they are receiving rewards or punnishment? They must be in some kind of body. Or do you feel they are floating invisible blobs. Again I'm not mocking, I'm trying to see how you are thinking on this.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Changed in the Greek:
G236
allasso
al-las'-so
From G243; to make different: - change.

There is no mention of us collecting our flesh bodies. Also, when Christ returns, those which are still living in the flesh, their bodies will change into spiritual bodies. They do not keep their flesh bodies.

If it is true that we will "reform" our flesh bodies, then why are those who are still in the flesh, at Christ's return, changed? In your explaination, wouldn't they just keep their flesh bodies?

Ter

*note- any detractors which want to detract from this topic (such as what franklin and godchild does- mud slinging), will be ignored. I'm even thinking of starting a thread titled "trash". I'd more more than happy to copy those kind of posts to the "trash"http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

(Message edited by terluvire on November 14, 2006)

abiyah

11-14-2006, 10:10 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGood Afternoon to you Terluvire !

I enjoyed your above post ! Indeed we DO have two bodies, God's Word so declares it, an earthly/flesh body and a spiritual body. Once we are through with our flesh body [ when we die the death of the flesh ] we are through with it. Done ! I must agree with you, as I've also NEVER heard The Word of The LORD say that the flesh body will be "reformed". As a matter of fact, God's Word says the exact opposite to that 'theory','statement', 'belief', etc. According to The Word of God, the flesh body shall return to dust and our spirit shall know it no more, not ever again.

Pslam 103:14
" For He knoweth our frame [=formation, God formed flesh man from dust ]; He remembereth that we ARE DUST. " 

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifFlesh man is of the dust of the earth.

Psalm 103:15
" As for man [ flesh man ], his days are as grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Just like the grass and the flowers of the earth flourish, they only do so for a short time, and then they die, the flesh body is just like this. 

Pslam 103:16
" For the wind [ wind= meaning ruach, the spirit ] PASSETH OVER IT [ it= being the flesh body ], and it is gone [ the flesh shall return to dust, and there is no sign of it anymore ]; and the place [ that being our flesh body ] thereof SHALL KNOW IT NO MORE [ when we die the death of the flesh, our spirit will not ever know our flesh body ever again. The spirit will not know the flesh body, nor will the flesh body know the spirit after we die in the flesh ].

abiyah

11-14-2006, 10:11 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Continued from the above post.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif When we die the death of the flesh body, your spirit PASSETH OVER the flesh body, and returns to The LORD [ As it is written Ecclesiates 12:6-7 ]; And your spirit is not ever going to know your flesh body ever again.}

I Peter 1:24
" For ALL FLESH is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away; "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Once we are through with these flesh bodies, the flesh is gone, done, there is no need for it any longer.

I Peter 1:25
" BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURETH FOR EVER. And this is The Word which by The Gospel is preached unto you. "

Abiyah

terluvire

11-14-2006, 10:52 PM

Thank you so much for your posts Abiyah!

God's word clearly states that when we are done with the flesh.....that is it. The flesh is done away with. It returns to dust.

We have a much better body when we are done with the flesh. We have a spiritual body.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Ter

david_munson

11-15-2006, 05:10 PM

But,
would Thomas agree?

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Looks like Jesus was raised with the body He had before.Even though He was without sin.
It seems that we will have physical bodies that will be perfect and sinless.(incorruptable)

Jesus still had the marks of abuse in His body "after" He was raised from the dead.

What are your thoughts on this?

Dave

}

kimberlyfredrick

11-15-2006, 05:13 PM

Well, Yahshua did tell Mary at the tomb that he had not yet ascended to his father. Maybe the clue is here....

terluvire

11-15-2006, 07:35 PM

Dave, do you believe the spiritual, resurrected body is flesh and blood? If so, what do you do with this verse:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Ter

kimberlyfredrick

11-15-2006, 11:43 PM

Is'nt it the Mormans that beleive that the dead are raised into incorruptable flesh and bone?

terluvire

11-16-2006, 12:27 AM

Hello Kim,

I have no idea what the Mormons believe. You could ask godchild. I think she use to belong to the Mormons.

david_munson

11-16-2006, 05:34 PM

Kim,
He also when talking with her at that time said that she could not touch Him in
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
and in the same chapter says,in John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Considering He said that He cannot be touched until He ascends up to the Father,do you believe as many others do (including myself) that He had to sprinkle the Blood on the Mercy Seat before He could be approached?
That He had to avoid even having physical contact with people before He did this?

Remember,He was "the" high priest ,sacrifice and intercessor for all mankind.

}

kimberlyfredrick

11-16-2006, 05:45 PM

David! I never heard of such...never! i'm not doubting you one bit but I have never heard of this. Could you tell me more?

watchman_2

11-16-2006, 06:10 PM

kimberlyfredrick,

The word "touch" in John 20:17 is,

G680
&#945;&#788;&#769;&#960;&#964;&#959;&#956;&#945;&# 953;
haptomai
hap'-tom-ahee
Reflexive of G681; properly to attach oneself to, that is, to touch (in many implied relations): - touch.

It means "delay" in this case. Christ was telling Mary to not delay Him.

david_munson

11-16-2006, 06:22 PM

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful "high priest" in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
---
In the verses I last posted Mary is told by Christ,
"go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

This was before He went to the upper room.
---
Leviticus 16:14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

Seven speaks of the finished work of Christ.
As we know ,Christ is our sacrifice.
All the yearly sacrifice did was point to Christ who was the propitiation for our sins.
Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

}

abiyah

11-16-2006, 06:40 PM

John 20:17
" Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif"Touch me not" In the Greeak means do not be holding me, and it is how we say in the English " Do not hold me up ", its like 'I have to go' kinda thing. Yet, Christ our Lord is saying this to Mary in kindness, in love, and in comfort, no doubt. And IN MY OPINION I do not think He is speaking in a harsh tone here, but gentle. Making it clear to her I have to go. He has things that He still MUST do before He ascends to The Father.

David Munson WROTE:
*********************************************** **
Quote: " Considering He said that He cannot be touched until He ascends up to the Father,do you believe as many others do (including myself) that He had to sprinkle the Blood on the Mercy Seat before He could be approached?
That He had to avoid even having physical contact with people before He did this? " END
*********************************************** **

NO, Not SO ! As you have clearly shown Thomas touched Him, Christ instructed Thomas to reach here with his hand and thrust it into His
[Christ's] Side. Please David, be careful, for you have contradicted yourself in your own understanding and interpreation of this. We see that also when Mary and the other Mary came to His Sepulchre, AFTER HE RESURRECTED that they HELD HIS FEET, The TOUCHED HIM, and Worshipped Him. IT IS WRITTEN. 

Mathew 28:9
" And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, JESUS MET THEM, saying, All hail. AND THEY CAME AND HELD HIM BY THE FEET, and worshipped Him. "

Amen

abiyah

11-16-2006, 06:54 PM

David Munson WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " Considering He said that He cannot be touched until He ascends up to the Father,...END"
*********************************************** **

One other thing David. Please listen. Christ DID NOT SAY THAT ! I perceive that you have spoken on this in error here when you misquoted and twisted The Scripture to what exactly our Lord said. And I say that because I do not think you did it on purpose like our enemy does, the devil. He did NOT say He COULD NOT BE touched "UNTIL" He ascends to the Father, but rather He said and IT IS WRITTEN

John 20:17
" Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER; ......." [KJV]

See the difference in what you said and what SAITH The Lord ?

Abiyah

(Message edited by Abiyah on November 16, 2006)

kimberlyfredrick

11-16-2006, 06:56 PM

Christ was made High Preist because of his death and ressurection so in a sense the Mercy Seat was done away with....correct? There would not be any need for Christ to sprinkle any blood since he had already shed his perfect blood for all, correct?

david_munson

11-16-2006, 08:56 PM

How long was it between the time He said to Mary Not to touch Him and the time that He told Thomas to touch Him?

There is a period of time that passes between the two moments.
What took place that made it allowable for Thomas to touch Him but not for Mary?
Look at what the verse says.
"
---
Watchman,
I ask you ,please leave off with the veiled innuendo's about "rapturists" being unsaved.
I thought we got past that un-profitable stuff.?

God looks at the heart and sees how receptive it is.
Besides that,we are all undeserving sinners and can make no merit on our own accord.Not one of us is above the other and we should remember that when we communicate with others.

All living human beings are of incalculable value in the Fathers eyes.
When we belittle others ,we do it to people who are made in God's image and I think it is an insult to the Lord for us to do that.

Debate and discourse is a wonderful freedom but to use presumption against others like it is a weapon is debasing to this freedom and lends no integrity to what is presented.

It's also probably not a good idea to think too highly of oneself over and against others.
Any consideration of ourselves as superior to others because of doctrinal differences is a very shaky foundation.

You still seem to have a mindset that anything other than what you think is correct makes the other person a lost soul.
It just isn't so.

Ask the Lord,He'll show you.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
---
Kim,
the verse continues on beyond where Watchman commented and we should read the rest for the context.
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father".
Not yet ascended and still we see that Thomas was allowed to touch Him because He had already offered the Blood of His own body like the Old Testament priests did to end sacrifice.
Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Dave
}

(Message edited by David Munson on November 16, 2006)

terluvire

11-16-2006, 10:11 PM

David,

You said:
Considering He said that He cannot be touched until He ascends up to the Father,do you believe as many others do (including myself) that He had to sprinkle the Blood on the Mercy Seat before He could be approached?
That He had to avoid even having physical contact with people before He did this?

I had never, ever heard of such a thing! What Christ did on the cross was/is a done deal. Nothing else was needed to be done on his part:

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

"finished" in the Greek is:
G5055
teleo
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

Ter

watchman_2

11-17-2006, 03:49 AM

David,

You wrote,
Watchman,
I ask you ,please leave off with the veiled innuendo's about "rapturists" being unsaved.

You are in error [again] on this matter for I have never made the link that you 'rapturists' will be or will not be saved. God is the judge -- not you or I.

It is ONLY your own lack of understanding of the scriptures that leads YOU to consider my writings a "veiled inuendo". Though it is clear from the scriptures that you 'rapturists' follow the doctrine of Satan by way of your own ignorance of the Truth of God's Word, the millenium is a time of teaching so that those of you 'rapturists' that God considers are innocently duped into believing such nonsense can have an opportunity to learn the truth and overcome at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is loosed for a short time.

Since God is always fair, everyone will have ample opportunity to know the truth, reject or accept it, and overcome or follow Satan.

Why wait until the millenium and take the chance that God might decide that you had ample opportunity here in the flesh and you failed? Might as well dump that rapture nonsense now.

david_munson

11-17-2006, 04:34 PM

Watchman my dear friend,
"Today is the acceptable day of salvation."
You (as far as I see through scripture) are in error on this matter but we already know our different takes on this issue ,yes?

Plus you must remember how you stated previously to me that those who believe in the rapture are Satan,s offspring.
(Devil's tit or something to that effect)
Then you do it again,
" Though it is clear from the scriptures that you 'rapturists' follow the doctrine of Satan by way of your own ignorance of the Truth of God's Word."

I am not trying to create any tention about this (it's in the past) ,I just think you should realise that you have error in your doctrine as well as I and everyone else does.
It's a matter of rooting it out and growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord.Which is one of the things we are all supposed to be doing while we are here on this earth.
(general application,no presumption about any one here)

You or any one else (including me) should never assume doctrinal superiority above other believers.
No one has yet arrived.If they had,they would be murdered because the world hates Christ.
---
Terl,
I agree that it was finished but you must keep in mind that the Temple was a reflection of the throne room in heaven and has the mercy seat within it.Therefore He did as the high priests did and ended sacrifice for all time.
He sprinkled the blood.The only Blood that could finish (was found acceptable in the Fathers sight)the Temple sacrifices.
---
Abiyah,
I see no contradiction in what you say I said and what the scriptures say.
Show me where it says in that set of verses "it is written."
I qouted the verse without changing any thing.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: "but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father", and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Notice the context: "but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

He said this "before" He went and allowed Thomas to touch Him.
In order to understand what actually took place you have to see what was being done (concerning sacrifices) before He operated in the office of our Most Holy High Priest.

His action fulfilled the law.There is no contradiction here at all.

Dave

}

abiyah

11-17-2006, 06:41 PM

David Munson SAID Post No. 3313
" Considering He said that He cannot be touched until He ascends up to the Father....." 

CHRIST SAID [John 20:17 KJV]
" Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am NOT YET ascended to My Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Show ME David IN The Word where Christ said HE CANNOT be touched UNTIL He ascends up to The Father. First... Christ was with His disciples 40 DAYS PRIOR to His Ascention [Acts 1:3]. Your above quote saying Christ SAID, and He did NOT say what you said He said is twisting and misqouting The Scripture. Christ said " touch Me Not; for I am not YET ascended to My Father;.... " He did NOT as you said, I CAN NOT BE touched UNTIL I ASCEND TO MY FATHER, no, no, rather you said that. Do you NOT see the difference ?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Thomas TOUCHED Christ after His resurrection and BEFORE He ascended to The Father, and allowed BOTH Mary Magdelene and the other Mary [Mattthew 28:1-9] to HOLD HIS FEET after He resurrected and BEFORE He acsended to The Father, that means they TOUCHED HIM when they held His feet David, BEFORE He acsended to The Father. So your own interpretation of why He told Mary to Touch Me not is in error, and your explaination to why is also in error, for indeed you speak and explain this verse according to you OWN interpretation and Not God's Truth. You are saying CONTRAY to God's Word.. WHY ? STOP THAT ! Mary Magdelene TOUCHED His Feet, along with the other Mary. In John 20:17, He is simply telling Mary..... do not hold me up, as indeed He has work to be BEFORE He acsended To The Right Hand of God. 

DAVID MUNSON SAID
" Notice the context: "but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

He said this "before" He went and allowed Thomas to touch Him. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Are you trying to say that Christ ascended to The Father, then CAME BACK, and stayed 40 days with His dsicples and then ascended a SECOND TIME to The Father ? Answer YES OR NO please. If YES, you do greatly err.

Abiyah

abiyah

11-17-2006, 07:00 PM

Matthew 28:1
" In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, CAME MARY MAGDALENE AND THE OTHER MARY TO SEE THE SEPLUCHRE. "

Matthew 28:5
" And the angel answered and said unto the women [ the women in verse 1 Mary Magdalene & the other Mary ], Fear not ye: for I know that ye SEEK Jesus, which was crucified. "

Mathhew 28:6
" He is not here; FOR HE IS RISEN, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. "

Matthew 28:7
" And go quickly, and tell His disciples that he IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD; and, behold, He goeth before you into Galilee [ Just as He told them He would in Matthew 26:32 ]; there shall ye see Him: lo, I have told you. "

Matthew 28:8
" And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring His disciples word. "

MATTHEW 28:9
" And as they went to tell His disciples, behold,JESUS MET THEM, saying, All hail. AND THEY CAME AND HELD HIM BY THE FEET [ see then how they 'touched' Him ? ], and worshipped Him. "



(Message edited by Abiyah on November 17, 2006)

david_munson

11-17-2006, 07:21 PM

Simply qouting from the same passage as you,
" Touch Me not; for I am NOT YET ascended to My Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God. "

"Touch me not" is the same as "do not touch me."
There is no contradiction here.

Touch me not for I am not yet ascended.
Go to my brethren and say "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God."
All in the same sentence.
Why?

There is a reason.
Seek it out.

Dave

}

abiyah

11-17-2006, 07:56 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifOnce AGAIN... another question AVOIDED. I've notice that happens here allot around here. LOL ! Your response to my above post(s) is 'weak '. I ALSO, like the two Mary's in the above verse "SEEK" Jesus, and I do so daily, for indeed He IS The Word of God, The LIVING Word of God, this is why I'm able to help you see your err, yet you refuse to see it. : (

Now again, I will ASK... are you telling me, according to The Word of God that Christ ascended to The Father AFTER the Ressurection THEN, DECSENDED back down FROM The FATHER, and stayed with His disciples FORTY days and THEN ascended again to The Father a SECOND TIME ? Is that what you are saying ? Because that is how it sounds. Neither have you addressed what I have PROVEN to you BY THE WORD OF GOD, that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary both HELD Christ's FEET after His Ressurection ? He ALLOWED the two Mary's to TOUCH HIM, why do you deny that ? You have misinterpreted
' touch me not' translation of The English FROM THE Greek, yet you are being 'stubborn' and will not HEAR Truth regarding 'touch Me not'. : (

Abiyah

terluvire

11-17-2006, 09:02 PM

Good Afternoon Abiyah!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Yes, I've been noticing alot of avoidance also.

David, I brought posted this way up in this thread and you never addressed it:
Quote:
Dave, do you believe the spiritual, resurrected body is flesh and blood? If so, what do you do with this verse:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

And also concerning "It is finished". Christ did not need to go and sprinkle the Mercy Seat with his blood after his crucifixion. "It is finished" means just that. There was nothing else which needed to be done.

lev.16:18
Blood sacrifices were a requirement for the sins of man; however they were all fulfilled in the blood that our Lord Jesus Christ shed on the cross. At our Savior's death, all of these blood ordinances were nailed to the cross.

And concerning our Lord's ascention, David, do you believe that he ascended, descended, and ascended again?

It seems to read in the Scriptures as Abiyah has brought forth, that Christ was with the disciples for 40 days and T H E N he ascended.

He only ascended once just as he is only returning once.

david_munson

11-18-2006, 05:18 PM

Avoid?
I'm still waiting for an answer to why the Lord said what He did to mary.
": but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God. "
He said this before He went to the disciples.
He sent Mary on ahead to tell them that.
Why?

}

terluvire

11-19-2006, 05:20 PM

Good Morning David,

Brother, Please, I know you mean well, but I'm not going to argue over God's word anymore.

Deep in my heart, I do feel that you think we are lost and need saving and need to be shown the error of our ways as also GTP seems to think. And well, I feel you don't really want to discuss our Father's word with us but that you feel sorry for us and are trying to show us how wrong we are. If I am wrong in my assumption then please forgive me, but I am speaking from the heart.This makes me very sad.

It doesn't matter what I share with you concerning our Father's word, I feel you don't really want to hear it.

If I have offended you with my understanding of our Father's word, I am deeply sorry. I will turn the other cheek.

I don't want to argue anymore. My heart is still very very heavy.

david_munson

11-19-2006, 08:01 PM

Terl,
I'm not questioning your salvation.
I've said that before.More than once.

I'm questioning Watchman's assumption that disagreeing with his position makes me lost or even worse,the Devil's tit.

I find there to be a lack in his abilty to recognise other believers and show the respect that should be given every human alive.
Saved or not.

I haven't insinuated you're lost.
I have pointed out differences in much of what is believed and attitudes that are of no profit to any one.
(My past attitude when I first posted here for instance)

You claim Christ as Lord.
I stated no doubt in your faith in Him.
I do not do so now.
You say He is Lord and Saviour and you seem to reflect that.
Watchman does not reflect that towards others like me who simply disagree with him.
He feels it is important to insinuate that The Christ I put my trust in ,the Christ of the cross who in obedience to the Father shed His Blood for us ,is Satan.

And this supposition is based on believing there is to be a catching away of the bride.(rapture)

That is spiritual ignorance at it's worst.
So much rediculous assumption from the viewpoint of a man's limited understanding.

I find it amusing though pathetic that one assumes to know the mind of Christ while reviling his brethren over such minor things.

It makes me think of the devotion I just read.

Tit 3:9
11/19/AM

"Avoid foolish questions."
--Titus 3:9

Our days are few, and are far better spent in doing good, than in disputing over matters which are, at best, of minor importance. The old schoolmen did a world of mischief by their incessant discussion of subjects of no practical importance; and our Churches suffer much from petty wars over abstruse points and unimportant questions. After everything has been said that can be said, neither party is any the wiser, and therefore the discussion no more promotes knowledge than love, and it is foolish to sow in so barren a field. Questions upon points wherein Scripture is silent; upon mysteries which belong to God alone; upon prophecies of doubtful interpretation; and upon mere modes of observing human ceremonials, are all foolish, and wise men avoid them. Our business is neither to ask nor answer foolish questions, but to avoid them altogether; and if we observe the apostle's precept (Titus 3:8) to be careful to maintain good works, we shall find ourselves far too much occupied with profitable business to take much interest in unworthy, contentious, and needless strivings.

There are, however, some questions which are the reverse of foolish, which we must not avoid, but fairly and honestly meet, such as these:
Do I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?
Am I renewed in the spirit of my mind?
Am I walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit?
Am I growing in grace?
Does my conversation adorn the doctrine of God my Saviour?
Am I looking for the coming of the Lord, and watching as a servant should do who expects his master?
What more can I do for Jesus?

Such enquiries as these urgently demand our attention; and if we have been at all given to cavilling, let us now turn our critical abilities to a service so much more profitable. Let us be peace-makers, and endeavour to lead others both by our precept and example, to "avoid foolish questions."

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Dave

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terluvire

11-19-2006, 09:02 PM

Dave, I will speak no more on this. All I know is when I read at Cultbuster, I read past posts which are now gone, that we were referred to as lost. I've been reading there for months and months following what was said about us poor, lost, duped souls.

I'm just heartbroken over this. And for GTP to say we have the doctorine of the devil (paraphrasing) well, what I am I to think.

I'm done with this. God word means more to me than to be playing mind games.

Please just let me be.

watchman_2

11-20-2006, 07:45 AM

David,

Don't pick on the sisters when your beef is with me.

I can see that your peace gesture was short lived.

I have thorougly explained this to you many times; yet, somehow it never quite penetrates your skull filled with mush.

The woe given in Matt. 24:19 is figurative for those nursing Satan's work along prior to Christ's return. Those people are, in part [others will be as well], the 'rapture' believers who are duped into thinking the the antichrist [Satan pretending to be Christ] is Christ, whom has come to rapture the church away.

Of course, I paraphrased the scripture to coin 'rapturists' as the devil's tit. Since you are still a 'rapturist', the devil's tit analogy applies to you.

I've also thoroughly explained to you that, eventhough you love the Lord, you are defacto Satan worshippers due to the 'rapture'.

You always take my edification of you negatively and question whether I have love in my heart. I have answered it many times in my continued edifcation of you. If I didn't care, I wouldn't keep putting forth the effort to set you straight.

david_munson

11-20-2006, 03:18 PM

Nice twist Watchman but I was being addressed by Terl.Not picking on her.

Thanks for your concern Watchman but I will stick with the truth instead of your "man's teachings."

I'm real edified by your insistance that I worship the Devil.
Of course you have no concern that you call my Lord the Evil one.
I just hope He doesn't hold it against you.
Remember what He told those who attributed the Holy Spirit's work to Satan?
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

You are ignorant if you think Christ,who I happen to put my trust in ,is the Devil.
You make this asumption with your accusations.
Maybe you're just too blind to see what you're doing?

I forgive you any way no matter what the reason.

Dave

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watchman_2

11-20-2006, 06:45 PM

David,

You demonstrate stupidity on a grand scale most every day. You should go back to school for reading comprehension.

I have been very clear that you 'rapturists', holding true to your beliefs, WILL serve Satan when Satan [the antichrist] comes on the scene pretending to by Christ on a mission to rapture the church.

Does that mean you will or will not worship Satan when he arrives? I have no idea. From what I read from you, you are sticking to the rapture theory despite the numerous times it has been proven false to you here at Factnet. The rapture is Satan's Doctrine, thereby making those that follow this false theory "defacto" Satan worshippers.

My writings do not state you purposely worship Satan. In fact, I know that you love the Lord -- you are just following seducing spirits that have misled you to the false rapture.

I don't seek forgiveness from you for I have not trespassed.

trainedobserver

11-20-2006, 07:56 PM

What evidence is there for "spiritual bodies"?

What evidence is there for the continuation of the personality after death?

All living things die, decompose, and eventually atomize back into the environment as raw material for another cycle of living things. Nothing lives on but whatever genetic information we have passed on to our descendants. When the brain dies the personality produced by it literally disintegrates as well. Fear of nonexistence is understandable but it is also well within a normal human being's ability to come to grips with. Facing these facts and concentrating on the present and earthly problems would behoove us all in this time of war and division.

david_munson

11-21-2006, 03:49 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

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abiyah

11-21-2006, 05:03 PM

TrainedObserver WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " What evidence is there for "spiritual bodies"? .................

All living things die........... " END QUOTE
*********************************************** **


I Corinthians 15:35
" But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? "

I Corinthians 15:36
" Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened [= made alive, restored to life ], EXCEPT it die; "

SKIP TO VERSE 39

I Corinthians 15:39
" ALL FLESH is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."

I Corinthians 15:40
" There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. "

I Corinthians 15:41
" There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. "

I Corinthians 15:42
" SO ALSO IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption [ a corruptible body; the flesh body ]; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION; [the incorruptible body; the spiritual body ]. "

I Corinthians 15:43
" It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power; "

I Corinthians 15:44
" It is sown a NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. THERE IS A NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY. "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif You either BELIEVE The Word of God or you don't. The choice is yours. : )

trainedobserver

11-21-2006, 06:46 PM

"You either BELIEVE The Word of God or you don't. The choice is yours. : )"

Why would I believe what someone claims to be "The Word of God" when it contradicts reality and itself? What you believe to be the thoughts of some supreme being are actually just the thoughts of other men living a long time ago.

abiyah

11-21-2006, 07:08 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gifYou do greatly err. Its very sad. For you believe NOT The Word of God. And surely God's Word does NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT contradict, and IF you find God's Word to be contradicting then you my friend ARE the one IN ERR, not God's Word. I WILL not even 'try' to push you to believe that WHICH I KNOW IS TRUE ! I KNOW IT ! You have freewill, so then please, as you were..... freely do what you will and GO your way TrainedObserver.

Abiyah

terluvire

11-21-2006, 07:24 PM

Good Day David,

Sorry Dave, it appears I allowed satan to give me a "poor me baby" attitude. And well that is not the attitude of a true warrior of the Living God.

You did nothing for me to dump on you and I deeply apologize.

My anger was directed at GTP. I don't like it when someone claims to see us as fellow Christians, but in reality sees us as followers of the doctorines of devils. I don't like the deception of one appearing as a friend, but only does it in hopes of getting in good with us, when in reality, they only want to use that friendship as an opportunity to quote "help" us poor decieved souls. That bothers me more than Franklin and godchild. At least they don't pretend anything with us.

That's all I will say on this subject for I am done with and want to move on. I don't want this to weigh heavy in my heart anymore. I have handed it over to the Lord. I would like to only discuss the topic on hand.

Again I do apologize to you brother. You did nothing to deserve my comments.

Peace,
Ter

terluvire

11-21-2006, 08:32 PM

I tried to edit out my feeling on GTP on the above post, but it seems I'm too late.

In all seriousness, I'm done with that topic and I truly have put it behind me. I do not want to dwell on it anymore.

My apologies.

Peace,
Ter

david_munson

11-21-2006, 11:17 PM

Terl,
you have done no offense to me at all.

I personally believe that we all have things to share that can be of benefit to the body of Christ.
I also believe that all of us have error in some of our doctrines.
To me it is most important to know Christ above all else.
That is what benefits us most.
Knowing our Lord in a personal way.

God bless you as you enjoy His fellowship with you.

Dave

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terluvire

11-22-2006, 12:21 AM

Thank you David for accepting my apology, even though you feel I don't owe you one. I truly did owe you one.
I hate it when I open my mouth and insert my foot..lol I don't like the taste of feet.lol http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Agape,
Ter

ezekiel_37

11-23-2006, 10:07 PM

Hi there gang....

I have a comment.

Mary was instructed not to "delay" Christ, as His work was not yet completed. He still had to meet with His disciples including eventually Thomas.

There is no contradiction, no order not to actually touch HIM, only not to delay His mission.

Thomas needed to touch and feel our Lord to believe, and the lesson for us is that we who believe without seeing and feeling HIM physically on earth are blessed, true believers.

What is the problem here....?

None that I can see.

As for rapture, David, I am not going to go through all that again but to say that it is not a minor doctrinal difference, rather MAJOR...It is strategically needed for the Devil to accomplish...all fake ofcourse, but none the less Satan's big trick of delusion.... to have the world believe that he is Christ.(1st seal Rev6).

So, not a small issue and definitely worth fighting over to protect the truth. You are informed and well able to see truth hit you in the face full speed. Pastor Murray teaches that many will come out of Babylon at the very end of the tribulation....after seeing the end time events first hand....

It is the Shepherd's Chapels belief that these are the 144,000 of Rev 7. These and the very elect (fig.7000) along with the already dead in Christ (martyrs from the past and present) comprise the bride of Christ.

All others that are alive at the 7th trump have to go through the Millenium, including most so called Christians, not as part of the bride of Christ but rather as the students of the bride of Christ, under the authority of Yeshewa Messiah.

Just my 2 canadian cents worth....which now a days is worth 1.8 USA pennies.

Peace and Truth in Christ
c

ps. I am accessing this site from a public computer, for anyone that may be interested????