The REAL threat to Christianity [Archive]

angie0401

11-06-2006, 05:38 PM

The true threat to Christianity is infiltration by those who claim Christianity but show by their actions that they are far from it (by their fruits we shall know them). If one's actions/fruits are so rotten as to drive other Christians away and to the point they did with gone_to_pa/Big Mitch, one should re-evaluate their actions. Unless, of course, one knows EXACTLY what they are doing. HMMM....

This is the Farewell post of one of the (former) beloved members of cultblunders. (Posted with permission from author - gone_to_pa.)

FAREWELL MY FRIENDS
To those who have an ear to hear, may our Lord bless you.
It has become more than obvious that what I came here to accomplish is now being hindered, so I bid you a farewell. Dave M. ask me to come here and thought we'd, by the leading of the Holy Spirit could do some very good things here and we did. I came here to learn, but to also share the life I have so richly been given, which is the Life of the Lord. It has been my privilege to fellowship with so many really Spirit led people. I have really appreciated all the wonderful encouragements that I have received, not only from the Admin here, but also you, the general public. My daughter Rachel has also enjoyed posting and making friends with some of you and I know she will not forget easily the friendships she has made here.

Whether you know it or not, many of you have taught me so much, maybe even more than I have ever had the honor to share with you. I am very entreat able and teachable. I receive compliments in the same spirit as I receive correction. One thing I was taught very early on was this, " you must first learn to follow before you can ever lead." Ever since I started out in ministry I have always had a spiritual covering, besides the obvious ONE, Jesus Christ. I was always under a Pastor-Teacher during much of my time preaching and teaching God's Word. During that time, there was more times then I care to admit, times when I disagreed with my covering.

Once, doing a eulogy for a friend who had died, I studied very carefully to keep it within the 3 minutes the Pastor had ask me to keep it too. It's hard to sum up forty years of someone's life in three minutes, but I had it down to about 10 seconds left over. As I got ready to get behind the pulpit, Pastor Gene ask me to cut it down to just two minutes. I wanted to scream. How was I going to do this. I wanted to honor his wife and his family and encourage them, but 2 minutes; Wow! You know what though? I did it, because I can listen and obey. I can always and really like to hear constructive criticism, though many times I am my hardest critic. Once I stayed up all night listening and arguing my point on eternal security. I gave in because they were right. I have been told that something I said during a study was very abrasive and I not only apologized to the people involved, but repented, and ask forgiveness. BUT, that's just me. I thought we were on a Christian site for the most part.

Now, knowing me and knowing Dave M, do you think we would say the things we have said as of late, with no reason. [ is that the heart and spirit we have exhibited to you here on CB the last 6 months or so that we have been here?] Do you think that our words were nothing but the flesh? Do you believe in your heart, that we said, what we did to purposely attack or hurt a beloved member of this board? Or as Franklin has said that we actually hate someone. If you think that, you have the right to your own thoughts, but your wrong. Do you also think that two of the ( at least we used to think so) most liked people on the boards are suddenly leaving just because of a difference of opinion? If so you know nothing of a Watchman’s call. Dave has more experience in this field than I do, as his patience is more pronounced than mine. 
continued..

angie0401

11-06-2006, 06:05 PM

I am a little more rough around the edges, but compared to the way I used to be, I have heard it said, that I have come a long way. I know there will be the Nay-Sayers who don’t think it possible, but this is heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking, that what was intended by Dave and my posts was NEVER fully understood or realized in the spirit in which it was written and intended. If things would have went as I had prayed they would, the party/parties involved would have written a post back explaining that they understood exactly what was being said and will be taking another look at what has been happening. But no, the first reply I get is an accusation of possibly being indignant because some didn’t like what I said. Whether you know this or not, I could give a flying leap if you agree with my posts. I didn’t come here to watch everyone fall in line to everything I had to say.

I will also mention that through this next record of where I believe it went wrong, not ONE time did I mention the name godchild. This all from the thread [ ironic ] The Greatest Threat To Christianity!

WHERE IT ALL BEGAN: AND NOW ENDS A GREAT FRIENDSHIP
B/M: reply 23 “ Church has hurt and wounded more people and families than and of our enemies could.”
GC: reply 24 “ I’d like to see us stop tearing down churches.”
B/M: reply 25 speaks of what the thread is not TGTTC, “ not the nicest things we’ve experienced.”
GC reply 27 “excuse me”
B/M: reply, apologized if I offended anyone, it was not my intent.

Page4 B/M reply 68, posted to Franklin, “ not called to shove doctrines and opinions down peoples throats.”
B/M reply 73 to Franklin, and Sharon’s name mentioned, again not GC.
GC: reply 74 states that she is uncomfortable with my response and hopes I’m not being indignant because people don’t agree with me. Ask at the end of her post to let it go, in other words “ shut up” and I hadn’t said one word to her personally.
B/M reply 77 Ask Dave his thoughts,
DM reply 78 Dave responds and concurs with me. Ends post with MIA CULPA.
GC: reply79 Eph 4:22-23 “ put off former conversations of the old man” again, in other words, doesn‘t want to hear what is being said.
DM: reply 80 gets e-mail, time to cut down tree’s, Col 3 Put on charity (agape)
B/M reply 81&82 Tell Dave no one is receiving what is being said.
Aaron: reply 83 Enjoys B/M posts, must forgive and get on with life. The South will rise again.
Sharon reply 84 tells DM great post.
DM: reply85 thanks Sharon, but believes THOSE who need to hear are oblivious as to what is being said.
GC: reply86 speaks on Falconry and speaks on assault from the evil one.
B/M reply 87 LOL and claims it’s not getting thru { the message)
DM reply 133 to Admin about how we treat others.
GC reply134 ask “who is judge of who is speaking to another in Christian love“?

angie0401

11-06-2006, 06:17 PM

continued from above:
AMMENDANT: one of the major reasons for DM’s and B/M’s posts./ by GC 10/26/06
BY Godchild
“ On further thought, why the heck is anj worried about what pictures anyone has? Many people on sc's discussion board have plastered their photos there, some who it is my guess placed them as 'wishful thinking'. Maybe that's what they're afraid of, that someone knows they are really just some “ugly red faced devils.” Personally, I don't need to see photos. They show themselves so well!”
“Administration, Please shut this lunatic person, (ack, pteuuey), Anj, UP! She brings nothing to these boards that shows any kind of love, kindness, or consideration. She lies in the cesspool of her own choice, then expects us to feel anything for her but contempt and revulsion. I do not!!”

Personal Note: ( ack, pteuuey) is implying the act of spitting on someone. This directed to Anjie on the SC thread at FN.

GC reply 135 Are we here to force ourselves to examine our self because someone else’s opinion?
Frank: reply136 we shouldn’t be finding fault with another, but fighting cults.
DM: reply137 to Admin speaks on attitude of love.
DM: reply138 responds to Frank that we are not fault finding, but concerned about how we the Body represent Christ.
GC: reply 141 speaks on many faces of humility.
DM reply 145 tells Frank not to make false assumptions. Speaks on the mindset of “us against them mentality”
GC reply148 It’s impossible to reconcile people to Christ when you are accepting their falsehoods about HIM.
DM reply149 “ we are a threat to our own beliefs, when our zeal for the Lord overcomes us.
GC: reply 150 post verses about being unequally yoked.
B/M: reply 151 Same verse, different commentary, talks about wanting to be there for someone if they decide to abandon cult, not wanting to be the one they would never turn to.
DM: reply153 agrees with B/M speaks on the Greatest Commandment.
SCAM-reply154 verbal attack on DM& B/M.
154-158 much of the same,
GC: reply 164 claims B/M posts are boring, dull and empty.
Raphael reply 167 thanks and defends B/M.
SCAM reply attacks B/M
GC: reply 175 agrees with SCAM and puts up Good Post flag.
B/M reply LOL’s.
RLS reply jumps on bandwagon, agreee’s with SCAM;
SCAM reply178 he belittles B/M and speaks on writing sermons.
GC reply 179 replies with another good posting flag to SCAMS belittlement.
Raphael reply 180 says no problem with B/M posts and wonders who SCAM really is?
GC: reply speaking about repetitive posts.
Sharon reply 185 warns GC about siding with SCAM.


continued..

angie0401

11-06-2006, 06:25 PM

continued from above:
TOM DECIDES THIS IS ALL THE HYPOCRISY HE CAN STAND.
GC claims in reply to Sharon that you’d have to be blind and stupid to not see what is happening, referring to SCAM,
YET; she agrees with every post of his/hers. Now this can only mean one of two things. Either she is blind and stupid about how SCAM is trying to also cause division, but just doesn’t care because she has found a friend in her/him. Or she really does understand that Dave Munson and myself have in all reality been very gentle at first trying to point out her alienation of the SC/AM group and are hinting as gently as we can for her to reconsider her position.
Again, not one time was the name godchild used in any of these posts. Most were being posted in generalities, so as not to draw attention to just one person. This wasn’t done by accident, but to let the one’s who had their spiritual ears on to hear what the Lord had given us on that situation over at FN.
Notice that godchild was NOT the only one on CB that was going over to FN and arguing with them there. What should have been conviction by the Holy Spirit, instead was taken as condemnation by GC ( for listening to Satan and your flesh will do this) which put her immediately on the defensive.
The difference being, those condemned usually react strongly and lash out at the nearest people or person they can. When the Holy Spirit brings conviction, this causes the normal Christian to be thrust forward into new area’s of victory in their lives.

AMENDANT:
B/M posts an entire sermon preached at Westminster Friends Church. August 27th 2006. Not one word of negativity in reply. What changed since then? The above that’s what! You want to know why my words are now according to GC and her little clique, boring, dull and empty. Because she has taken on the some of the Characteristics of the cult she came out of. She isn’t the first this has happened to and won’t be the last.
The following are just a few!
Proud people think about “what they care or are doing for God” Humble folks know they have nothing to offer God.
The proud want everyone to know how much they know; The humble are humbled even more so when they realize how much they have to learn.
Proud, quick to point the finger of blame at others, but the humble accept personal responsibility- can SEE where they went wrong.
A proud person, when there is a misunderstanding or conflict, wait for others to come and ask forgiveness. A humble and broken person take the initiative to be reconciled; see if they can get to the cross first.
And for now last but not certainly not least, proud unbroken people don’t think they have anything to repent of. On the other hand a humble broken person has a continual heart attitude of repentance.

You can notice in many of my posts concerning the things we mentioned above, I used my own experience to make sure folks knew that I was not a stranger to what I was speaking about. I too at one time believed that verbal attacks were advantageous to whatever cause I was addressing. This never worked, but instead the effects of what I said had the exact opposite effect. I was alienating the very people I was trying to minister too.
I will finish this post with the words of just a few, who also didn’t feel a spirit of “come let us reason together"

"The Holy Bible is very clear: Either a person follows God or Satan. Period... Since Scer's don't believe in God or Christ, that leaves one that they have chosen of their own free will to follow." by godchild. 

continued..

rachelengland

11-06-2006, 06:27 PM

angie0401

11-06-2006, 07:00 PM

continued from above:
These posts are just a small sample of your recent posts - within the last week to 10 days.)
If THIS is your idea of a Christian sharing the Word of God, it's no wonder lost people want nothing to do with Christianity....

AMMENDMENT: Notice that this person is equating the actions of GC with Christianity as a whole. I pray this was not a person searching for truth, because after the way she has been talked to if she doesn’t keep studying with the S/C folks, she’ll end up a Buddhist Monk. She will never turn to Christianity again, that’s for sure. Does it get worse?? What do you think? I won’t even be here for your answer.

Some more false accusations posted by non other than….. (from the FN Anton Hein thread)
You have the unmitigated gall to come here and post scripture. God grants forgiveness. But He wants us to sincerely repent, and make amends. Else our whole life is spent sliding down a slippery slope. There is no sin He is not just to forgive, except grieving the Holy Spirit. We are not saying he cannot be forgiven.
I went to the site you so proudly display. A site for photography which you say there may not be for children's eyes. Do you think no children go there. You advertise 'women for $5 a month', for a download of porn I am sure. You have an area for speaking against copyright laws, in fact mocking them, and then come here accusing me of infringing on hein's rights. Shame on you!
You also state there that hein supports your site. I'm sure you make a lot of money to donate to him. You must be very proud of the Christian example you set.

the response

I most certainly do NOT advertise women for $5 a month and I resent the implication you make!! The advertising on my site is provided by Google and Amazon and all of it is technical related.
Now you are suggesting I am a pimp. What is your problem? Do you want to go to jail?
You presume by all you say that Anton is guilty. All of your arguments are premised on that assumption. But why should he repent of a crime if he did not commit it? Unless he is guilty, your crusade is worthless. But you won't examine the facts.

The fact that there are others who have committed crimes and who do not face justice, has no bearing on Anton's case. Go and chase down people who deserve to face justice. But first make sure that your personal vigilantism is truly justice and not an attempt to make people criminals who should not be.

AMMENDMENT
Notice that GC will not stop her pursuit of this person who by alls means is innocent. This is what he had to say next. It took him threatening GC with a lawyer and a lawsuit before she would stop and apologize.

I am a real PhD.
I am not a registered sex offender in any country.
I am not Anton Hein.
You have the means to check all these things and yet you are so prejudiced that you will not do so.
I have written to the moderator regarding your continued abuse. He has replied to me and says that he will be dealing with this issue over the next few days.
I understand that a lawyer has also been contacted. What you are doing is illegal and immoral.
I am also putting you on notice Gilmore. Desist from your insinuation, slander and the defamation directed at me, or face legal action. 

continued...

angie0401

11-06-2006, 07:14 PM

almost done:
Notice that this gentleman is a PHD and she has messed with the wrong person, but again she has some knucklehead backing up her opinion. It is not until he threatens a lawsuit do we hear this. Still for an apology I think it to be pretty arrogant, as she pretty much tells him to sue her because she doesn’t own anything. That is not a repentant heart, does this show Godly repentance which brings humility or worldly repentance which says, “ Oh poop, I’ve been caught.”

Dr. Hart, I want to apologize to you. I may have misjudged you, and it is not my place to judge at all. God's grace is sufficient for all of us. You have the right to have any content you want on your website. What may seem offensive to me may not to you. That is not for me to say. You are correct in stating that we all have sin in our lives and are imperfect.
I am not writing this out of fear of being banned from this board or having a lawsuit filed against me. I had to laugh over that because worldly things mean little to me, and I have nothing that you would want as I have nothing material to lose.
I have not changed my mind about the way Anton Hein has handled his situation. Child molestation is nothing to shrug off as 'just a mistake', but I don't want to go into all of that again with you.
Let me just say I will not bother or respond you or your posts any longer. I think I would suggest to Anton that he would be better off not continuing posting his defense any longer as he is definitely not helping himself by doing so. That is another choice he will have to make.
I am not writing this out of fear of being banned from this board or having a lawsuit filed against me. I had to laugh over that because worldly things mean little to me, and I have nothing that you would want as I have nothing material to lose.

Godchild says she is in no fear of being banned form the board. I beg to differ. She has put up over 4300 post in the same amount of time that it took me to put up almost 900. And my family thinks I live on the computer. She has opened most of the threads on CB and has an opinion on everything.
Franklin has mistakenly made the assumtion that Dave and I hate godchild. It is I who apologized to her, even after she betrayed my trust, told me a letter she e-mailed my was written in confidence and the next day I see a good part of our conversation on the WWW. I still forgave, though I wasn’t really jumping for joy about her telling me how to raise my own daughter. Still, I let it go.

Now as I notice she really has a problem with these people that she believes she is called to minister to. I believe it is more than just a natural draw to minister to them, but something is wrong here. She has made them to think everyone at CB believes the way she does.

Franklin is using the name of the guy who teaches what they believe what they believe “Yarrum” into one of the CULT characters on the “ Good Ship Lollipop.” Not good, not good at all. They at SC are watching us and it is as if we are making fun out of their leader. They begin to wonder why we advertise ourselves as Cultbusters, but it seems as if many here have a mocking spirit.

angie0401

11-06-2006, 07:21 PM

final post:
I guess the best thing to do is leave here because no one wants to hear they are wrong. To much pride. You can look around on FN and CB and you will see that I have never, ever had a problem with apologizing and repenting of things I knew were not of God.
Farewell my friends. I will pray for all here and pray that the eyes of your understanding are opened. I know mine have.

Godchild, here are some of your own words.
Godchild’s Advice to Others/ Maybe she should take her own advice! Are we here to force others to examine themselves, because of another's opinion. We should be looking to our own business; examination from within, between us and God.
If someone doesn't like someone else for whatever reason, deal with it. Unless they are breaking the rules (great rules, by the way), they have their rights also. That someone may not like the other for equally (or more in their own mind) valid reasons. Stay away from that person, ignore them. Someone else may receive from them just what they needed. 

Ok, that is it.
Rachel, the reason(s) I posted this was for two reasons:
1.) A friend asked me to.
2.) I felt it was important for others to know EXACTLY what type of people we are dealing with here. Those called out by Big Mitch/gtp are fakes, hypocrites and loveless people.

terluvire

11-06-2006, 07:39 PM

Thank you Angie for posting the above!

And thank you Mitch for speaking up! God Bless you brother!

One thing always stuck in my mind, it was when godchild would say on quite a few occassions: "your sins will find you out."

Well...her sins finally did find her out.

I am glad it was brought out in the open, for all to see. It's was one thing when we were stating that she was lying, it is quite another when those which were within her own group are saying it. Hopefully those who have aligned themselves with her will open their eyes and SEE what is truly going on.

Mitch, I want to say that I do not discern all at Cultbusters as I do with godchild. I know not all act nor think as she does. I believe in discerning people on their own merrits, not the actions of others.

I'm glad the actions of gc were brought out into light. Darkness cannot dwell in light. The light, the truth, dispells the darkness, the lies. As long as her actions remained in the darkness, in secret, it would have continued on. Hopefully she will reflect on what she has done and is doing and will repent.

God Bless,
Ter

terluvire

11-06-2006, 08:17 PM

Oh, I forgot, I want to thank David also.

Thank you David for standing with Mitch!

Regardless what somebody calls themselves does not make it so. We are fruit inspectors. What's good is good and what's evil is evil. Let the chips fall where they may.

I happily call you and Mitch my brothers in the Lord.

terluvire

11-06-2006, 08:23 PM

Psa 5:1 To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David. Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.

Psa 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

Psa 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 5:7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

Psa 5:8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

Psa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulcher; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Psa 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favor wilt thou compass him as with a shield.
(KJV)

rachelengland

11-06-2006, 08:23 PM

When it all comes down to it-we all have different personalities and different ways of handling situations. Our tempers get the best of us and so does our pride-we are flesh and blood after all and saved by God's grace. I sure hope this new thread is meant to help uplift and encourage-don't be a guilty fool like I have been in the past and have thrown in the towel,and fallen into sin by gossiping, calling names and letting people I have never seen get the best of me.

There is a world out there dying to hear words of hope about the awesome love and power of Jesus and his saving grace.So many christians are in the headlines for being hypocrites I hope you all will not be part of that statistic.

Take it to God in prayer-he knows your heart knows your thoughts and in the midst of misunderstanding -He is peace. Live in peace have joy in your hearts YOU MITCH HAVE BEEN SAVED BY AN AWESOME GOD!!! All of us have-keep on loving when you feel down and lonely and even betrayed. It doesn't mean we have to stop defending what we believe in -just quit the attacks on individual persons.

Sorry you felt you had to leave CB Mitch. I hope you can find the friendship and fellowship here- I never had the chance to speak to you but have seen(not really read-way to long for me) your posts-I hope you will carry Christ's love with you wherever we go.

There are more important things to fright and fret over than internet squabbles there are real people in real heartbreaking situations who need our light of love to shine to them. I have found myself also heart broken, embarrassed and breaking out in hives over WHAT??? Stupid stuff that has happened on an internet forum, these last days. We are the ones Mitch who bring it on ourselves sorry to say it. We don't have to run away but we do need to focus on what is important here-these are meant to be forums to discuss not attack no matter what side we are on, I watch christians call others pathetic losers and clowns and I think man where is that getting any of us-sure we have to fight battles but not at the expense of killing someones spirit....R

angie0401

11-06-2006, 09:11 PM

QUOTE:
rachel-->
There are more important things to fright and fret over than internet squabbles there are real people in real heartbreaking situations who need our light of love to shine to them. I have found myself also heart broken, embarrassed and breaking out in hives over WHAT??? Stupid stuff that has happened on an internet forum, these last days. We are the ones Mitch who bring it on ourselves sorry to say it. We don't have to run away but we do need to focus on what is important here-these are meant to be forums to discuss not attack no matter what side we are on, I watch christians call others pathetic losers and clowns and I think man where is that getting any of us-sure we have to fight battles but not at the expense of killing someones spirit....R

You need to direct this at yourself and the players at CB. You have been downright cruel to wayfaring_stranger and your buddies at CB have done their best to belittle the beliefs and sincerity of the SC student's walk with Christ.
Now that you and some of your buddies have been called to the carpet, it's time to "focus on what is important here"? Sorry, honey, but I don't feel ANY sincerity in your post, just an attempt to distract from the ungodly things that have been going on at CB.

watchman_2

11-06-2006, 09:27 PM

rachelengland,

I agree in concept with what you are calling for. Unfortunately, we deal with the real internet world here.

When your boyfriend [and I emphasize 'boy'] comes here with his littany of insults, without one scripture or basis of logic to support his position then runs and hides over at cultblunders, he is demonstrating that he is not a Christian and deserves whatever insults are thrown back at him. One cannot claim to be in the brotherhood/sisterhood of Christianity and act like Franklin.

So, when you write, [i]I watch christians call others pathetic losers, you do lie! I know of no SCer that would call another CHRISTIAN a pathetic loser.

rachelengland

11-06-2006, 09:32 PM

Angie-I have directed that towards myself, it's why it was written-it is also why I said I had embarrassed myself. I can't make others change their attitudes, only God can do that. I only hope you posted this for Mitch in order to bring unity.

You don't really have all the answers to why I reacted the way I did and people will take sides, I can't ever expect you to understand. I don't know Mitch or Dave or godchild they aren't my buddies. I do know Dowen(from what I hear you do too) and Franklin, aaron and Sharon and Pdee(she's a cool chick) and they are great people sure they disagree with you on scripture but I have NO doubt you all love Christ-you just have some differences of opinions as far as scripture is concerned.

I'm not your honey and I haven't been called on the carpet and I don't think CB is ungodly the admin of that sight is an awesome guy with a great heart. Take care R

rachelengland

11-06-2006, 09:40 PM

Watchman, you called franklin a pathetic loser-even if you don't agree with him, you really don't need to call him a loser-you are an intelligent man and calling someone that is like saying, "God why did you even waste your time creating this human"!

You back up your word and maybe I haven't agreed with you(I used to read your posts long before all this CB stuff broke out) when it was you and bear head to head.

Sometimes our need to be 100% correct ALL the time in our doctrine takes the focus off of what is important. None of really have ALL the answers to the scriptures. I have been a student of the Bible for many years and yet I still don't claim to know it all. But I know this to be true- Jesus is the Son of God and He loves evry human being ever created!

(Message edited by rachelengland on November 06, 2006)

angie0401

11-06-2006, 09:40 PM

You're right - I don't know why you reacted the way you did. I do know that it did not appear, to me at least, to be directed so much at yourself as at Mitch/gtp.
I do know Dowen and think he is a great guy. I have also read some of Sharon's post and don't have a problem with her. The ones I have a problem with are the ones who come here, accuse us of ridiculous things and seek to cause division. I don't especially find you to be one of those people, but your buddy franklin most definitely is.

For the record, my post about CB being ungodly had nothing to do with the admin's original intent for the site, but I do believe he needs to do a better job of moderating the things that are going on there. I am well aware of who the real culprits are that seek to sew discord and division.

watchman_2

11-06-2006, 09:57 PM

rachelengland,

You do lie again. You should be ashamed of yourself! I think that most here at SC threads are not in agreement on every subject. We don't go around calling other SCers, and those detractors that show respect, 'pathetic losers'. This excludes your boyfriend.

I call franklin a pathetic loser as a statement of fact with respect to his debate here and his demeanor. Whether he is worth the air that he breathes or the food that he eats is not for me to discern. Though I don't understand that which you find attractive [he doesn't appear to be very bright] about franklin, it is none of my concern as well.

What more of an example do we need to demonstrate that he is a pathetic loser then the fact that his girlfriend is out defending his honor [for lack of a better term].

rachelengland

11-06-2006, 10:02 PM

Watchman, just relax and stop calling me a liar.
Franklin doesn't ever need me to defend him and he has a day job buddy-I'm sure he'll be back here tonight.

Take care and don't be so angry.... R

gone_to_pa

11-06-2006, 10:14 PM

HEY, HEY, HEY,

Please lighten up. I didn't put this together to see more infighting, but I wanted to show that everything isn't as it seems. Like I said, I'm no angel, and after not calling anyone by their name through many posts, they kept attacking and attacking me. I was there not to fight but to learn and to teach. The reason for the above post was for one thing. The major playerin this, thought and believed with all HER heart that she was CALLED by GOD to come over to the SC site to MINISTER to the folks there. I called her on it and said what she was doing was not ministry but was in all actuality alienating the SC group so they may never want to talk to anyone from over there. Dave Munson, God bless his heart concured with me, as he too did not believe the attack on SC/AM was in line with what the Lord would have us to do. Do you know how it started? A member of SC ask me why I post on a site that doesn't allow other Christians to post. I investigated and you can now see the final result. We tried numerous times to let it be known that what was being said to the SC/AM church was WRONG. We, the one's from CB are called to be ambassadors of Christ. I'm not talking about finger pointing, I'm talking about right and wrong. GC unrelentless attack was wrong and it isn't the first time she has acted in this manner. She needs prayer and professional help. But people in denial seldom see their need for help. Rachel thank you for your kind words. Anjie and Terl, we thank you for your friendship. Gone to PA

angie0401

11-06-2006, 10:24 PM

gtp,
I don't know if you are aware of it, but the CB site suddenly went down and even though it is back up now, your post was not there any longer. What a surprise. Well, at least it is recorded here for all to see.

I've really enjoyed talking to you and look forward to much more engaging discussions with you and David.

Angie

skooter942000

11-06-2006, 10:26 PM

Tts 1:7 For a "bishop" must be blameless,
as the "steward" of God; not selfwilled,
{not soon angry}, not given to wine,
no striker,not given to filthy lucre;

Tts 1:8 {But a lover of hospitality},
a lover of good men, sober, just, holy,
{temperate};

Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word
as he hath been taught, that he may be able
by sound doctrine both to exhort and to
convince the gainsayers.

------------
--------------
----------------

[BISHOP] Greek for 1985

Pronunciation Guide
episkopos {ep-is'-kop-os}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 2:608,244 from 1909 and 4649
(in the sense of 1983)

Part of Speech
n m

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) an overseer

a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that
things to be done by others are done rightly,
any curator, guardian or superintendent

b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a
Christian church

[STEWARD] /Greek for 3623

Pronunciation Guide
oikonomos {oy-kon-om'-os}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 5:149,674 from 3624 and the base of 3551

Part of Speech
n m

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) the manager of household or of household affairs

a) esp. a steward, manager, superintendent (whether free-born or as was usually the case, a freed-man or a slave) to whom the head of the house or proprietor has intrusted the management of his affairs, the care of receipts and expenditures, and the duty of dealing out the proper portion to every servant and even to the children not yet of age

b) the manager of a farm or landed estate, an overseer

c) the superintendent of the city's finances, the treasurer of a city (or of treasurers or quaestors of kings)

2) metaph. the apostles and other Christian teachers and bishops and overseers

watchman_2

11-06-2006, 10:36 PM

rachelengland,

You don't get others to stop calling you a liar by proclamation. There is a real easy remedy -- stop with your lies!

You will be amazed to find out that, once you take this step, people will stop calling you a liar.

rachelengland

11-06-2006, 10:48 PM

Sorry kiddo, I didn't lie. I have watched you spew names at both Bear and Franklin and well just anyone who disagrees with you. BUT, it takes all kinds to make the world go around and thanks to some very intelligent men we have freedom of speech- so spew away-as long as your blood pressure doesn't get aggravated I'm okay with that.

Well gotta go other matters call me...I'll let you have the last word and you can call me some more names...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

watchman_2

11-06-2006, 11:10 PM

You just can't help yourself. LOL You just told another one. It must be habitual with you.

(Message edited by Watchman 2 on November 06, 2006)

david_munson

11-06-2006, 11:43 PM

I almost made a comment but I am not sure the humor would be taken in the light in which it shines.
I have such a weird sense of humor.
Just ask Mitch/GTP.
---
I really just wanted to say "be loving to each other," because that is Christ and no matter the conflict,people here and every where need each other member of the body.

No man or woman is our enemy even though they may not believe in God at all.
We are here to let Him show Himself through us so others might be drawn to Him because of it.

(Cherokee proverb)
All life is sacred
treat all beings with respect.

I made the mistake of not doing this a whiloe ago and I found that it was not Christ who comes to condemn but to seek and save the lost.

I remember being lost and without answers or hope for the future.
I remember the day I began a relationship with the Lord and how deeply the Love He displayed on the Cross effected me.

How could I not have Love for other people after seeing the Love He has towards me.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

2 Corinthians 5:14-16 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:

God tells us to "love your enemies and do good to them who use you spitefully".
How can any of us (yes we fail many times)
not let God love through us?

It is most fulfilling.
Dave
}
edited for spelling

(Message edited by David Munson on November 06, 2006)

preachers_daughter

11-07-2006, 12:18 AM

I don't want to get in the middle of all of this, but I would like to say that Mitch's post is still at CB. I enjoy reading many of his posts, and He said many things that were true.

God Bless

(Message edited by preachers_daughter on November 06, 2006)

angie0401

11-07-2006, 01:07 AM

If Mitch's post is still at CB, then I must apologize. I didn't see it on the Greatest Threat thread after the site came back up.
Thanks for correcting my error, preachers_daughter.

Angie

jimito

11-07-2006, 01:26 AM

rachelengland!!!!! it is so good to read your posts(they always give me a good laugh) i don't know why you waste your time here it's like knocking your head up against a brick wall. I wanted you to know our good friend Jill M passed away recently in Arizona. Heath said he saw you at FA of G and you were as beautiful as ever. Stop hanging around these cyber people and get a life you never used to be into this and it doesn't protray you right. They are ruthless even on the AA thread!Please email me.
Here is a question for the christian masses are you responsible for sending people to hell, well many people are forgoing churches because of all the bickering going on inside it's doors and they want nothing to do with God or christianity. It looks like that is what's going on here.

watchman_2

11-07-2006, 01:26 AM

Since when did not attending church have anything to do with people going to hell?? And, since when did going to church have anything to do with people going to heaven?

If that's the case, I'm fried 'cause I haven't stepped inside a church to hear a sermon in over 30 years.

God is the judge and I'm happy with that.

When people leave churches, it is generally because of the people in the church or the preacher of the church -- not because they hate God and want to follow Satan.

gone_to_pa

11-07-2006, 01:58 AM

PLEASE,

I want everyone to know that I actually almost hated posting what I did. WHY, because as I look back over my life on the internet, there were times when I was a real butt. The difference is NOW, I don't make excuses anymore.When people told me I was being a butt, I examined myself many times, and agreed with them more than once. You all remember when I first came here. I said something WRONG. It was wrong, so what did I do, first and foremost? I apologized, I ask for forgivness, I repented. We must be entreatable, we must listen to reason when it is brought to our attention. We must welcome rebuke, unless somewhere along the line we became perfect in our walk with the Lord.That my friends is being self righteous, and the only righteousness I possess comes " He who knew no sin becaem sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. HIM. MY righteousness was an imputation from Christ, not my own thoughts or emotions. Preachers Daughter, You must believe it was never my intent to hurt anyone. That is not my heart, but if some one in the body is openly, willfully and purposely pushing a group in such a way, that they have turned themselves into an internet bully. Bullying people until they have no recourse but to fight back. Bullying, name callling, belittling, people and expecting them to just sit back and take it, over and over and over is very unrealistic. Before long someone is going to push back. When it gets so ugly that this person insinuates spitting on another child of God, that is so far off, that anyone, even if they are not Christian, can see morally that is wrong to do to another human being. I tried very easily and simply to address a certain group, especially the one who I believed was the most abusive, in order to bring UNITY in the Body of Christ. I never in a million years thought I would have to document times, words, events, so that maybe they would look back and say, " You know what, maybe their right, maybe I need to take some time and check my motives" "Am I called of God to do what I am doing over at SC?"
I would ask now, that what needs to be said has been said, and all the cards are on the table. Yes, maybe you can go back and dig up some stuff on me from 6 months or a year ago. Go ahead. That was not what this was about for I still have so much information that I refuse to publish.I didn't write this letter to CB to smear anyone, I was just hoping that eyes would be opened.MY prayer now is that the Holy Spirit will step in and stop this bickering about doctrines and let's start talking about what we do agree on. If we can't find common ground, then do as I have, find a place where you can! I already have two more sights that I now call home. I will go there with the same intent that I did on CB. Would I do the same all over again. Yes, if someone is saying they are an ambassador of Christ and going to a web-site where they are at and are attacking their beliefs, I would do it again in a minute. Even if it was a Muslim site, WHY, because everyone has the right to believe as they want to, whether we think they are right or not. If you need some REAL ideas on how to expose a CULT, let me know I have a whole network of people who would be very interested in helping you . In HIS LOVE.

Preachers D, thank-you so much for the kind words. They meant a great deal coming from you.
I'm going back to my study on the toher thread.
Rachel, Angie, Skooter, Watchman, all I can say is thank-you for your input and peace GTP

gone_to_pa

11-07-2006, 05:35 AM

Preachers Daughter,

I just went over to take a peep and whoever said my post was still up was wrong. They have deleted it. This proves even more that memebers are more important than truth there. It reminds me of the cult I was in, where everything they didn't agree with, they erased, did call-backs on Doctrine Weekly books. Messages where the pastor was speaking on doctriens proven to be wrong, they edited the tapes. They even went so far as to edit a tape that had the beloved Pastor preaching a message while his words were slurred. It was all a cover-up.They taught doctrines like "touch not mine annointed", but the way they taught it was that even if you seen the Pastor in bed with a teenage girl, you were not to say anything, because God would strike you down. For what, to cause unity? What kind of unity can it be if we all believe a lie. When a web-site, a church- a ministry has to put on a certain face, just to make it appear to be something it is not.
They will say it was taken off to bring unity, but I believe the opposite. They are afraid of the wrath of one old, nasty cantankerous, bitter person. Thank-you Anjie for posting it here so that all will know the truth. That SCers are people, just like the rest of us. People, human beings. Not red faced devils or something we spit on, but people just like us. We need to start defending ourselves from wolves in sheeps clothing, who try to convince us that we are "better than" and someone else is "less than"
because the Bible makes it very clear, God does not look at the outward appearence, but He does look on the heart. This goes for all races, all creeds. Black, white, Chinese or Indian, Muslims, JW, Mormons, Budhist, Catholics and Pentecostal. Did you know that there are people out there that want you to believe that Charismatics are a bunch of nut cases because they speak in tongues? Well there are. Let me tell you what I think. I think God is greived by our division and when He comes for His bride, it will not be, hey you Baptist over there, you Pentecostals over there and you Catholics, go to the back of the line. SCers go back there with the Catholics. He will come for His bride, the body of Christ. It will be a heart issue, a love issue, a grace issue. { MY Opinion ) GTP

shalom, pray for those who dispitfully use you, what a concept hmmm. Hard to do sometimes isn't it? I'm trying Lord, I'm trying.

plow_deep

11-07-2006, 10:06 AM

Dave,

I enjoy a good Native American proverb now and then.
Most opinions are that this is Cherokee wisdom, and I have read many different versions, and heard many different versions. I like this one.

An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice... "Let me tell you a story."

"I too, at times, have felt great hate for those who have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It's like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times."

"It is as if there are two wolves inside me; one is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way."

"But...the other wolf... ah! The littlest thing will send him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all of the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing."

"Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit."

The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather ?"

The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed."

preachers_daughter

11-07-2006, 11:14 AM

No Mitch, you are wrong. It is still there.

david_munson

11-07-2006, 04:51 PM

PLow,
that's a beautiful example of intentionally walking in the Spirit and I want thank you for posting it.I really enjoy truth like that.

}

terluvire

11-07-2006, 06:56 PM

Angie and Mitch, you are both correct. The thread Mitch started: "TO ADMIN AND CB PERSONAL/FAREWELL", is gone or it is off limits to the majority which view the boards.

I copied his posts along with gc replies to them. What Angie has posted above, Mitch's posts, are not showing at CB.

Whether they were deleted or moved doesn't matter. It appears the admin wanted or is hiding what has taken place there.

rachelengland

11-08-2006, 04:31 PM

Jimito, thanks for the advice and insight and the compliments!!!! I am heeding the call, tough bunch sometimes. I will email, I just caught your post today.

You are precious as always. R

godchild

11-08-2006, 05:17 PM

I have been looking over many of my past posts here (trying to have an open mind) and I can see why they are considered contentious. I apologise for that and will do my best, Lord willing, to witness with Him in mind, in the future. I am a stubborn old lady, but my life is a learning process. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

kimberlyfredrick

11-08-2006, 05:53 PM

Hey Godchild,

That makes 2 of us! And I apologize for poking fun at you. I really don't want to view you as mean-spirited. I really don't! I guess our passions get the best of us and we tend to run the wrong direction with them. I would really like this feuding to end and work on a friendship which is what our Heavenly Father wants for us all along. How about it!

godchild

11-08-2006, 06:19 PM

Consider it done. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

rachelengland

11-08-2006, 06:39 PM

AWESOME!!!!!!!! God is good he can forgive us and godchild and kim are an example of thishttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

kimberlyfredrick

11-08-2006, 09:22 PM

Yes....GOD IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!

angie0401

11-08-2006, 10:28 PM

Vivian,
I hope you are sincere this time with your apologies and that you have truly repented for your past behavior.
Unfortunately, when we've heard it over and over again, it makes it hard to take your apologies at face value.
I guess only time will tell and I pray that it reveals a true turn from your former self.

Angie

angie0401

11-09-2006, 06:22 AM

QUOTE:
from godchild
I have been looking over many of my past posts here (trying to have an open mind) and I can see why they are considered contentious. I apologise for that and will do my best, Lord willing, to witness with Him in mind, in the future. I am a stubborn old lady, but my life is a learning process.

I guess I just need things to be a little clearer here, so I understand WHAT you are apologizing for.

Are you apologizing for:

All the lies and slanderous comments;

Constantly twisting our words;

Calling us racists;

Calling us heretics;

"Spitting" on me;

Calling us red-faced devils;

Intentionally causing trouble;

or

Your posts being "contentious";

Just trying to understand...

Thanks

terluvire

11-09-2006, 08:03 AM

Hello godchild,

I'm kind of on the same page as Angie. I'm afraid this apology from you is as the other apologies you gave in the past.

If you are sincere, I would have no problem forgiving you. But I guess the thing is, is that your apology is lacking humility and true repentance.

Mitch's, balaam's and David's apology was heartfelt. Their sincerety oozed out of the computer. I could feel it. Mitch's and balaam's humility and contrite heart was very evident and it touched my heart. How in the world could I not forgive them!

I guess what I'm afraid of is not wanting to be made a fool when it comes to accepting your apology. You have apologized in the past and it would only last a day or two, if that.

I'm like Angie. I would like to know exactly what you are apologizing for. Is it because you were contentious, or is it because of all the lies and hate you have directed at us?

But I do want to let you know, if you are serious about changing, well.. I will forgive you godchild.

If you are sincere, over time it will be evident. I hope you can understand where we are coming from.

Peace,
Ter

godchild

11-09-2006, 03:13 PM

After a great deal of thought, I think the best way I could respond to the above allegations and not be contentious, is not to respond. I hope you can understand where I am coming from.

Peace,
Vivian

watchman_2

11-09-2006, 03:41 PM

After a great deal of thought, I think the best way I could respond to godchild's apology above is to not respond. I hope that you can understand where I am coming from.

abiyah

11-09-2006, 04:45 PM

godchild WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: " I have been looking over many of my past posts here (trying to have an open mind) and I can see why they are considered contentious. I apologise for that and will do my best, Lord willing, to witness with Him in mind, in the future. I am a stubborn old lady, but my life is a learning process. " END QUOTE
-------------------------------------------------

Good Morning to you Vivian;

Grace and Mercy be unto you from God our Father, through His Precious Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Vivian, with regards to your above apology you have said here that you have looked over your past 'posts' and you can SEE why they were 'considered' contentious. When you say you SEE why that they were considered contentious do you mean that you admit that they were written with the intent to cause a dispute? Do you admit that what you wrote in your posts to your fellow servants in Christ was done to cause discord amongst us ? Are you saying that you know that they were indeed contentious ? Are you saying to us that you now see that you've greatly erred in the way that you have treated the sincere Christians that gather here ? And for that you are now truly very sorry ? Do you now have a true change of heart towards us ? And will you now count us also as God's sheep, as brothers and sisters in Christ The Lord, and treat us as Christ as instructed you to ? And no more count us as enemies ? I will be honest with you my friend, and I mean this sincerely, it is difficult to know what exactly you are apologizing for, as your apology does not specify.

I will say this Vivian, I am NOT The Heart Knower, God IS, and He knows the thoughts of your mind, and the intent of your heart; Therefore, at this time I can not fully perceive whether your apology is truly sincere and heartfelt or not. I know not, but God KNOWS for sure. Yet even still, I will certainly accept your apology as one that is sincere and heartfelt. And yea, I do indeed forgive you friend. I forgive you Vivian, and I am sincere in my words to you. : ) And I will hope that you do have a full change of heart, and do which you have said you will do and really TRY your best for Him. Being stubborn has nothing to do with age Vivian, so then harden not your heart, but rather let your heart and spirit be stedfast with God and His Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Take Care,

Abiyah

godchild

11-09-2006, 07:23 PM

Today I meditate on these words:

Some will hate you, some will love you;
Some will flatter, some will slight;
Cease from man, and look above you,
Trust in God and do the right. --Macleod

plow_deep

11-09-2006, 07:43 PM

"Once bitten, twice shy."

"Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

godchild,

If your seeking forgiveness from me, than so be it.

I forgive you.

Please understand it could take much longer for me to actually trust you and believe you, possibly longer than the length of time you have spent here abusing the people of these threads.

Peace

terluvire

11-09-2006, 08:06 PM

Very well said Plow! That is exactly where I am at with this.

godchild, if you are truly seeking forgiveness, then I do forgive you. But as Plow said, it will take quite awhile to trust you.

Hopefully we can move forward.

Ter

gone_to_pa

11-10-2006, 03:26 AM

TO ALL MY FRIENDS HERE

I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day;
I'd rather one would walk with me than merely show the way;
For the eye's a better pupil, and more willing than the ear.
Fine counsel is confusing, but example's always clear.

And the best of all the creatures are the ones who live their creeds,
For to see the good in action is what everybody needs.
I soon can learn to do it, if you let me see it done;
I can watch your hand in action, but your tongue too fast may run.
And the lectures you deliver may be very wise and true,
But I'd rather learn my lesson by observing what you do.
For I may misunderstand you, and the high advice you give,
But there's no misunderstanding how you act, and how you live.

Going, going, gone to PA/ yee-haw

My dear old dad ( God rest his soul) told me this long ago, "talk is cheap, action speaks louder than words." I love the above poem my mom sent me. It always puts things in perspective for me. I believe that is why the words of the "Baptist" ring so true even today. " I must decrease, so that He may increase."

SHALOM

terluvire

11-10-2006, 05:05 PM

Good Day GTPhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif,

Thank you for sharing that with us.

So true, actions speak louder than words.

As a parent, I found that to be the best teaching tool, to lead by example.

God Bless,
Ter

eagleman8

11-10-2006, 07:36 PM

Hello watchmen I am new to this board and i can not believe how bind they really are even though the Father said they would be. they show thier ignorance of the word by what they say. They not only lack knowledge but thier without the spirit because they preach another gospel and another christ. This is what we were warned about in His word. First of all they deny the Father being born into the flesh which those who deny this are anti-christ like it is written. I can not fanthom the fact that they abide in a trinity doctrine that is entirely within its self is pagon it started pagon and it came from pagons. People that claimed to have so called became christians but were liars so that they could corupt the purest form of christianity denying the faith that was delivered unto the saints. That the Father Himself had become the Son. God in the flesh not this herisie that has been worked into the church that the son is seperate from the Father this is blasphemie. This is not what the word says this breaks the firt commandment. They really do not understan the origin of this corrupt doctrine it is not found in scripture and i am sick and tired of them saying we deny the trinity. YOU BET WE DO DENY THIER INTERPATATION OF IT . So does the bible it self. They say we are heritics but they also put that name on our Lord and the apostles. I invite any of these false scholars to prove thier doctrines but they wont they just cover the truth and make exuses and persecute the real scholar because they themselves have no real knowlege of the word at all. And i dont want to take them on in a chatroom i would love to do it face to face and infact i have dine so at times and like all of them they go away wiyh thier tails between thier legs i am not afraid to confront them about thier lies.Its very easy to do this beacause they do not know the word they only know tradition. Well watchmen keep up the good work for are lord and keep working in the field dont allow your self to be taken into this apostacy like they have. stay a virgin its almost over we all know we are in that fifth trump. The time of the sealing and the wittnessing before the 6th trump sounds and the angels and thier king are revealed abbandon and apollyon his names. the destoying angel and his so called ministers to seal the mark that almost the whole world has taken. It is so sad that they can not see it before them thats why the day of the Lord comes as a thief because they cant disern the signs of the time. It all happens as they slumber in thier deep sleep and they get a sudden awakening when all the suuden thier standing before Christ in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump and all the time they were waiting to be taken out of here. They don't understand the trumpets have already began to sound and we are in the fifth thrump awaiting the defacto apearence of the thief who comes onto the scene as the savoir and they will partake of that accursed thing because they refuse to belive the love of the truth that they might be saved. so sad this is and we want so much to tell them but they keep refussing it like in the time of Noah mocking the word of God until the flood came and took them all away. Its almost over watchmen keep working in the field and be faithful to the true christ feeding them the meat like we were told by are Lord. we as a body sound the alarm that the wrath is comming and they shall not escape. They think they are still waiting for it to happen and we are already in the 5th trump. Stay alert their are deceivers out there trying to lead us off the path to do what we have been sent to do. The hour is very late . The time has moved closer to continued bellow in another posts.

eagleman8

11-10-2006, 07:39 PM

christs return. The False one shall appear soon we must be ready. The Father is counting on us to see this thing through. Praise YHVH we our almost home and the mystery of God shall be done as it was declared to His phrophets. And like He said He is going to do somthing in the midst of them that their not even going to believe until they awake at the 7th trump and as sad as it is it will be a rude awakening and they will wish to be dead. Stay in the word watchmen this thing is almost over. The deception of these times is stong but we can cut it. We shall overcome and we already are. Keep witnessing watchmen.

eagleman8

11-10-2006, 07:42 PM

Check out our website at www.christschurchofthezadok.com (http://www.christschurchofthezadok.com) Look foward to talking to you all Keep plowing

paul

godchild

11-10-2006, 09:32 PM

Be sure to check out one of paul's sponsors while you are there. That pastor gives a wonderful sermon on revelations and who will be judged. He states (with scripture) it will not be Christians, but non Christians. We are being judged and refined today in preparation for when the Lord comes again. Jesus said we are His and nothing will take us out of His hand. That is the wonderful news of salvation.

May I ask a question? Do Shepherd's Chapel students and Arnold Murray believe that those who do not accept the doctrines he and they teach (but do accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior) are Christians or non-Christians?

skooter942000

11-10-2006, 10:57 PM

Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

skooter942000

11-10-2006, 10:59 PM

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Rev 22:12 ¶ And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

abiyah

11-11-2006, 01:03 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Evening to you Watchman, Skooter, & ALL !

I was just wondering ...... LOL ! Is eagleman a friend of yours Watchman ? He talks to you as though he may know you, I was just wondering is all. : ) He certainly supports all that you do here at FACTnet. : )

Eagleman, very nice to meet you brother and welcome to THESE Shepherd's Chapel Threads ! " ) We also enjoy your friend Watchman as our brother and fellow labourer in Christ our Lord. Do you also STUDY The Word of The LORD along with The Chapel ? I did follow the link to your google website, looks nice, and I signed up at your message board, perhaps sometime I will come and visit you brothers, as I love to discuss The Truth of Father's Word, and indeed SHARE IT. God Bless.

Abiyah

eagleman8

11-11-2006, 01:14 AM

Yes abiyah I have studied the bible on my own and with the chapel for 15 yrs and when i was addressing watchmen it is a name in general that is used for all of them who are on the watch.

paul

eagleman8

11-11-2006, 01:27 AM

To godchilds question about who is a christian and the answer is according to the bible there are to christs. It would depend which you believe in only one can save the other is a fake. the fake apeares first. What have you been taught about this first one. who ever believes in this first one to come in the end times is the true christ has been mis-lead. read matt:24,luke21,mark 13 and 2nd thess.2 that is were your answer will be found even though there are many more times it is mentioned in the bible . notice it says in matt 24:13 who will be saved then read in 2nd thess:2 v 10 and that will tell you too.
paul

eagleman8

11-11-2006, 01:29 AM

To godchilds question about who is a christian and the answer is according to the bible there are two christs. It would depend which you believe in only one can save the other is a fake. the fake apeares first. What have you been taught about this first one. who ever believes in this first one to come in the end times is the true christ has been mis-lead. read matt:24,luke21,mark 13 and 2nd thess.2 that is were your answer will be found even though there are many more times it is mentioned in the bible . notice it says in matt 24:13 who will be saved then read in 2nd thess:2 v 10 and that will tell you too.
paul

abiyah

11-11-2006, 02:14 AM

eagleman WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: " Yes abiyah I have studied the bible on my own and with the chapel for 15 yrs and when i was addressing watchmen it is a name in general that is used for all of them who are on the watch.

Paul " END QUOTE
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifWell Good Evening to you again Paul;

And Peace, and Grace be upon you from God our Father and His Son our Lord Christ Jesus.

With regards to your above stated quote. Indeed, 'watchman' is used 'in general' for all those on watch. And yea, ....many here are watchman, no doubt. : ) I thought perhaps you knew 'our' Watchman personally, I thought you were perhaps friends with him is all. LOL ! : )

Thank you for sharing the link to your webpage. And indeed, I did get a chance to check out your Bible Study regarding ' The Rapture Theory'. You know.... to test your fruit so to speak ? However, it cut off and never came back on just following your teachings in I Thessalonians 4, where you were taking the KJV [ English ] word for 'air' back to its original Greek word and meaning. It just stopped all together. I liked what I heard thus far, you do STICK to God's Word, and that indeed is what's most important, to allow God's Word to do the teaching, and I saw that you did that. : ) I enjoyed it !

God Bless
Abiyah

watchman_2

11-11-2006, 03:04 AM

Good evening all,

Welcome eagleman8! Thank you also for the link to your website. I thoroughly enjoy the boldness of your post here. I hope to enjoy your website as well.

Take care and God bless!

abiyah

11-11-2006, 03:14 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGood Evening to you Watchman !

Peace unto you brother; I was wondering where you all have been this evening. Nice to see you.
You have a peaceful and restful evening my friend, and enjoy the weekend. : )

Abiyah

watchman_2

11-11-2006, 06:41 AM

godchild,

You asked, Do Shepherd's Chapel students and Arnold Murray believe that those who do not accept the doctrines he and they teach (but do accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior) are Christians or non-Christians?

As eagleman8 pointed out, there is the antichrist [Satan] and there is the true Christ. So, it depends on what each Christian will do at the appointed time in which the antichrist appears first claiming to be Jesus coming to rapture the church away.

If those that now believe in the false 'rapture' theory do indeed follow Satan at that time, while thinking he is Jesus, I would consider that person to not be a Christian at that time.

Christ gives the churches exact warning:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, we know for certain that many that claim to be Christians will, in fact, be rejected by Christ simply due to a failure to understand His Word.

I'm sure that many whom believe in the false rapture will smarten up between now and then. However, many will not.

As for today, the scriptures tell us what our position should be.

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

So, I know that you believe in the false 'rapture' doctrine. Hence, my Christian duty is to inform you that the 'rapture' is false [which has been done many times here].

I cannot offer you any God blessings, for to do so would be asking God to bless your false teachings. If I made such a mistake, then, by default, I would be an equal participant in your evil deeds [spreading rapture teaching].

It would also be a sin to let you in my home if you were going to bring that false rapture theory with you.

God takes his letter [the Bible] to His children seriously and judges harshly those that teach it incorrectly and those that aid and abet those that teach that the antichrist is the begotten Son of God.

david_munson

11-11-2006, 03:13 PM

Hello all,
Just thought I would drop a few notes in here for the discussion.
---

1. Salvation is THE WORK OF GOD ALONE; and the work of God is DONE FOREVER (Eccles. 3:14).
2. Salvation is THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE; and eternal life is ETERNAL (Rom. 6:23).
3. Salvation is BY GRACE ALONE. Works have nothing to do with it, neither good nor bad. Sin could not keep God from bestowing his grace. And sin cannot compel God to withdraw his grace (Eph. 2:8-9).(not an excuse to sin)
4. THE COVENANT OF GRACE CANNOT BE BROKEN; and eternal security is one UNCONDITIONAL PROMISE of the covenant (Jer. 31:3; 31-34; 32:38-40).
5. THE PURPOSE OF GOD IN ELECTION MUST STAND; and that purpose could not stand if even one of the elect were to perish (Rom. 8:28-30; 9:11).
6. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CANNOT MISCARRY OR BE SHED IN VAIN. If one "redeemed" sinner should perish,for that sinner, the death of Christ would be a miscarriage, his blood would have been shed in vain (Isa.53:9-10).
7. THE SEAL OF THE SPIRIT CANNOT BE BROKEN (Eph. 4:30).
8. CHRIST CANNOT FAIL; and he would miserably fail in his appointed work if one whom he came to save were to perish (Isa. 42:4; Matt. 1:21; John 6:39).
9. The Lord our God is IMMUTABLE. He cannot change. And if one whom he loves were to become an object of his wrath in hell, he must cease to be God (Mal. 3:6).
10. THE JUSTICE OF GOD, once satisfied, CANNOT PUNISH ANY FOR WHOM ATONEMENT HAS BEEN MADE (Rom. 3:24-26).
11. GOD WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN TO HIS ELECT. Where sin is not imputed there is no danger of perdition (Rom.4:8).
12. FAITH, SALVATION, AND ETERNAL LIFE ARE THE GIFTS OF GOD. The gifts of God cannot be taken away (Rom.11:29).
13. CHRIST'S INTERCESSORY PRAYER MUST PREVAIL(John 17).
14. THE BODY OF CHRIST MUST BE COMPLETE; and it cannot be complete if even one member has perished (Eph. 1:23).
15. We are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD (I Pet. 1:5)(Jude 24-25).
16. OUR LORD HAS PROMISED TO BRING ALL HIS ELECT TO GLORY; and he will do what he has promised (Eph. 5:25-27).
---
Just something to concider.
Dave

}

watchman_2

11-11-2006, 03:25 PM

Salvation and whom is or is not a Christian here in the flesh are two separate matters. David raises some good points regarding salvation. However, salvation has nothing to do with the question that godchild raised and my reply to godchild.

abiyah

11-11-2006, 08:42 PM

Watchman WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: " 2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

So, I know that you believe in the false 'rapture' doctrine. Hence, my Christian duty is to inform you that the 'rapture' is false [which has been done many times here].

I cannot offer you any God blessings, for to do so would be asking God to bless your false teachings. If I made such a mistake, then, by default, I would be an equal participant in your evil deeds [spreading rapture teaching]." END
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGood Afternoon to you Watchman:

I have a question for you. Please help me to better understand the above verse there in this II Epistle of John 1:11. I always thought this verse referred to those that pay tithes, offerings, as well as 'support' the teachings of those particular churches that teach the rapture THEORY, and/or celebrate Easter, as opposed to Passover, as Christ BECAME our Passover [ I Corinthians 5:7 ], and NOT our Ishtar=easter, and things such as this. I have never let some 'Christians' which do come to my door to 'try' and preach these false doctrines
[ though what they THINK they are doing is the works of God, but really they are the works of iniquity ] into my home, not ever, as a matter of fact I try to SHARE the REAL TRUTH of Father's Word with them, when they are out and about door to door in my neighborhood. Even when some sweet old ladies tried to tell me the anti-christ was already here on earth ? UGH ! I spoke truth to them, and shared with them their err BIBLICALLY !

So then let me get this straight and understand..... we are not to say 'God bless' to those that may perhaps have the spirit of slumber, or unkowningly can not discern the Teachings of God's Word from the teachings of man traditions ? It is God, The Father that has put the spirit of slumber on them [ Romans 11:8 ]. And it is my understanding that The LORD has done so for their own protection, so what they do, especially during the time of the spurious messiah or anti-christ that they do NOT do anything that would interfer with their salvation, as far as not being able to comitt the unpardonable sin. So then please...... do I greatly err when I say ' God Bless ' to those that DO NOT have an ear to hear, nor eye's to see ? And not say ' God Bless ' to those that do indeed hope and love the 'TRUE' Christ, and are NOT aware of the coming of THE false christ, the son of perdition, having never been taught this Truth in their church ? IF I'm not to say ' God Bless' to these, than indeed that would be pretty much every Christian I know EXCEPT for well.... God's election, those that do know and understand His Word and Overall Plan. So then indeed I'm concerned with regards to this, for I desire NOT to sin against my LORD.

Please, your edification on this very serious matter is most appreciated brother. And I thank you, and I Thank God for you. : ) I will pray about this as well.

Agape,

Abiyah

skooter942000

11-12-2006, 03:16 AM

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2Jo 1:12 ¶ Having many things to write unto you, I would not [write] with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

----
-------
----------

From Abiyah:

So then let me get this straight and understand..... we are not to say 'God bless' to those that may perhaps have the spirit of slumber,

- ETC
-----------8<---cut-------

TRUE

-We really need to watch our words....(Sweetie)

Can't wish the whole world [to have a nice day].

- Would one say this to a Muslim bomber?

- I hope not.

- A goodly steward for CHRIST, is just that.

- We have to watch our words (In print or other).

- we all fall short at times...
- (in this, i bet)

Don <*))><

watchman_2

11-12-2006, 04:16 AM

Abiyah,

I have no problem letting others come into my home and try to present their doctrine to me. The Mormon boys come by every few years. I use the opportunity to plant some seeds.

I believe that the reason God does not want those that teach not the doctrine of Christ, but of traditions such as rapture, to enter one's home is to avoid having false doctrine exposed to those in one's home that might be impressionable.

If my 6 year old daughter is home at the time, I do not let them in.

I think that you see it the same way as I do.

In my opinion, you do err when you wish God to bless those that do not have the doctrine of Christ. Many throw the term around as often as many say 'please' or 'thank you'. I think that this is treating the blessings of God frivolously.

Do those that visit the SC threads and bring forth those doctrines that are not of Christ have the spirit of slumber? You will have to determine that for yourself. In my opinion, they do not.

Those that have the spirit of slumber are not out doing work at all. They do not care and God protects them so they won't be held accountable for not overcoming Satan here in the flesh.

However, those that come here do so with purpose -- either to proselytize or to plant seeds for their false doctrines. It matters not whether these individuals are friendly or belligerent. They are in essence doing "work" wouldn't you agree? It is no different than the work that we do when they come knocking on our doors.

I don't know how you can say that those that turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to the truth are not 'aware'. In my opinion, they clearly have been made aware and have made their choice.

I see no problem wishing our friends, that follow not the doctrines of Christ, "well", "good luck", and other wishes. But, one's wishing them God's blessings would go against God's word. It is a special blessing.

abiyah

11-12-2006, 07:17 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGood Afternoon to you Watchman & Skooter !

Well thank you both so very much ! I see now, indeed I have been in err and I was ignorant in this. However, I understand now and shall repent. Thank you for your edification, I see that I needed that and I Thank God for it and for you both.

May God, our Father 'continue' to bless you brothers in the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of His Word so that others may SEE and glorify God; in The Name of Immanuel, Jesus The Christ.

Agape,

Abiyah

wayfaring_stranger

11-12-2006, 10:14 PM

The true threat to Christianity is infiltration by those who claim Christianity but show by their actions that they are far from it (by their fruits we shall know them).

Amen!

wayfaring_stranger

11-13-2006, 12:27 AM

You need to direct this at yourself and the players at CB. You have been downright cruel to wayfaring_stranger and your buddies at CB have done their best to belittle the beliefs and sincerity of the SC student's walk with Christ.

I have to agree with this. I was told that I was talking like the National Inquirer yet I'm not the one that started spewing anything "personal" here. My statements were directly related to the issue(s) of the thread and the feeling of being pushed aside because of my beliefs. Rachel England does not know my heart or my motives. Only God knows my "true" motives for my actions and I am not ashamed.

I believe in standing up for what the Bible says.

I will not apologize for choosing the Holy Spirit over those that do not know my heart.

What light of Jesus did I see
When I felt my soul should flee,
When those around that should have loved
Called me crazy which was not from above.
No offer of apology,
No light of Jesus did I see.

Because I stood for what I felt was right
I was called crazy which is not right.
Was told I spoke as a tabloid page
While such a page they wrote as they raged.
The motives of my heart they cannot see.
But Jesus is my judge and authority.

(Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger on November 12, 2006)

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 02:04 AM

Over the past few years it has become common place for theologians to question the Biblical doctrine of Hell. It has become even more common for some of the most well known “religious” spokesmen to question this matter of Hell.

The truth is that published doubts about the reality of Hell began in the 1800’s and have continued throughout the 20th century.
Even the late great Charles Haddon Spurgeon, pastor of the once great Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle, spoke about this problem.
In 1865 he said, “There is a deep-seated unbelief among Christians just now, about the eternity of future punishment. It is not outspoken in many cases, but it is whispered; and it frequently assumes the shape of a spirit of benevolent desire that the doctrine may be disproved. I fear that at the bottom of all this there is a rebellion against the dread sovereignty of God. There is a suspicion that sin is not, after all, so bad a thing as we have dreamed. There is an apology, or a lurking wish to apologize to sinners, who are looked upon rather as objects of pity than as objects of indignation, and really deserving the condign punishment which they have willfully brought upon themselves. I am afraid it is the old nature in us putting on the specious garb of charity, which thus leads us to discredit a fact which is as certain as the happiness of believers.” Charles Spurgeon.

To all who post here that have shown me the respect that they would wish themselves to receive, I want to thank-you. There are a couple of people that are from another site in whom I wish no contact, for I believe their couriosity is not of the purest motives. Terl, Angie and W.S. and many others from the SC/AM have disagreed with my position on the Lake of Fire, but have yet accepted me as another brother who enjoys studying like the Bereans. There was a prophecy made by someone who said that the minute SC disagreed with my understanding of certain doctrines, their true colors would come out. I believe that prohecy was supposed to turn out to the negative, but since God's Spirit is at work here as it is in many places, all things do work together to the good to them that love God, and are the called according to HIS purpose." To you who made that prophecy, You were right on the point. Even though Terl,Watchman, Abiyah and others have not agreed with me, their true colors have come out. They have been total ladies and gentlemen. True brothers and sisters in the Lord. Moreso than some who have called themselves by that name but yet their fruit has shown to be corrupt. Thank-you for putting up with me. I have found some true frinds here whom I wouldn't mind going to the wall with. If your to young to remember what that means, is back in the day, Organized Crime folks had guys who they called "Goodfellows" . In my time around the same groups of people, when we would introduce someone, we would say, " He/She is "Good-People!" This meant they were thorough. No more needed be said about thsi person! If there was someone you neeeded to do a deed with, this is a person who would take a ten year sentence, before they would give you up. Well, all I can say is that I have met some good-people here. I think that says it all. More to come...May our Lord be with you. Shalom GTP http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 02:20 AM

If you have questions, comments, objections, etc., on anything concerning Christianity, please feel free to send them to me at dave@layhands.com, and I will reply by e-mail. As time permits and as the Lord leads, I might turn my reply into an article and then add it to my "Questions and Answers" series, so please check my home page periodically for the latest updates.
Question:
"Will sinners burn in hell forever or will they be totally annihilated in the lake of fire?"
Answer:
After studying the various views concerning this issue, it seems to me that the greatest weight of evidence supports the view that sinners will spend eternity in conscious torment in the Lake of Fire. I might wish that this were not the case, but God's ways are higher than my ways! Prayerfully read and reflect on what Scripture says in the following passages and see if it leads you to the same conclusion.
In this article I am using the word "hell" as being equivalent to the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20, 20:10, 14-15, 21:8). For a more complete discussion of the Lake of Fire and the meaning of the word "hell," please see my recent article called Did Jesus Go to Hell after He Died?.

First I will present five arguments that are sometimes used to show that sinners will not burn in hell forever, and I'll explain why I personally don't find them very convincing.
Five Arguments for Total Annihilation in Hell
Total Annihilation Argument #1:
Many people believe that sinners will be annihilated in hell because they can't imagine how a merciful, loving God could torment the vast majority of humanity for all eternity. After all, is that really justice?
My Response:
I struggle with these issues a little bit as well, but Scripture tells us very clearly that God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9). God is perfect and His decisions are perfect. I don't like the thought of people being tormented eternally in the Lake of Fire, but I believe that God is righteous, merciful, and just, and I am willing to let Him execute justice in any way He sees fit. I can understand and empathize with the question of "Is this really justice?," but this argument does not prove that sinners will be totally annihilated in hell. God's view of justice is not necessarily the same as our human view of justice! to be cont...

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 02:29 AM

Sorry, I didn't notice this was posted on the wrong thread and by the time I did it, the machine wouldn't let me edit my post. This place needs an upgrade.
Total Annihilation Argument #2:
Sometimes people will point out that eternal conscious torment seems to contradict the phrase, "the second death," which is used four times in Scripture to refer to the Lake of Fire (hell):
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." (Revelation 2:11)
"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
The argument here is that death is the end of life. Physical death is the end of physical life, so the phrase "the second death" probably refers to the end of spiritual life.
My Response:
The problem I see with this argument is that the phrase, "the second death," does not automatically imply that a person's body, soul, and spirit are annihilated forever. This is just an assumption that some people have made, and the problem with this assumption is that death does not equal annihilation. For example, at physical death our bodies die and eventually decay, but they are not annihilated forever. The molecules that made up our bodies continue to exist, and in fact our bodies will be re-formed when we are resurrected at the Rapture (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

It is true that physical death is the end of physical life (at least until Christians receive their resurrected, glorified bodies), and in a sense it is also true that the second death will be the end of spiritual life for sinners. This is because it is only in Jesus that we have life (see John 1:4 and 14:6, for example). Sinners will be shut out from the glorious presence of the Lord forever (2 Thessalonians 1:9), and in this sense they will have no life since they do not have Jesus. However, this does not mean that they will be annihilated.
The "first" death (physical death) does not include annihilation, so we have no evidence to support the assumption that the "second" death refers to annihilation.

Total Annihilation Argument #3:
Another argument that people use is that hell is described as a place of destruction, which seems to imply total annihilation rather than eternal conscious torment:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction [apoleia], and many enter through it." (Matthew 7:13)

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apollumi] both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish [apollumi] but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction [olethros] and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Since hell is described as a place of destruction, doesn't this imply that sinners will be totally annihilated? to be cont....

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 02:36 AM

My Response:
We should be careful not to make hasty assumptions about English words such as "destruction" until we examine how the Greek words are used elsewhere in Scripture, so let's take a close look at apoleia, apollumi, and olethros in the New Testament.

The Greek word apoleia, which is translated as "destruction" in Matthew 7:13 above, is also used in Revelation 17:8 and 17:11:

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction [apoleia]." (Revelation 17:8)

"The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction [apoleia]." (Revelation 17:11)

Jesus says in Matthew 7:13 (above) that sinners will go to "destruction" (apoleia), and Revelation says that the "beast" (the Antichrist) will go to his "destruction" (apoleia) as well. In Revelation 20:10 the apostle John tells us exactly what the "destruction" of the beast actually means:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

[Note: I'll say something about "for ever and ever" later. It means "eternally" in this context, even though some people argue otherwise.]

The "destruction" (apoleia) of the beast is specifically described as eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:10, above). Therefore, it is likely that when sinners receive "destruction" (apoleia) it will also mean eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire.

The Greek word apollumi is translated as "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 (above) and as "perish" in John 3:16 (above), and this same Greek word is translated as "lost" in the following parables:

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 02:40 AM

Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses [apollumi] one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost [apollumi] sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost [apollumi] sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (Luke 15:4-7)
"Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses [apollumi] one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost [apollumi] coin.'" (Luke 15:8-9)
"[The Prodigal Son] For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost [apollumi] and is found.' So they began to celebrate. ... this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost [apollumi] and is found.'" (Luke 15:24,32)
Notice in the above passages that Jesus specifically says that sinners are apollumi ("lost"), which is the same Greek word translated as "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 and as "perish" in John 3:16. In the passages above, the lost sheep was apollumi yet it continued to exist, and Jesus used this as an analogy for sinners. The lost coin was apollumi yet it continued to exist, and Jesus used this as an analogy for sinners. The prodigal son was apollumi yet he continued to exist, and Jesus used this as an analogy for sinners. Many scholars therefore conclude that sinners will be apollumi ("destroyed" or "lost") in the Lake of Fire, yet they will continue to exist. For example, The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament (Spiros Zodhiates, p.246) says that the Greek words apoleia and apollumi "must never be construed as meaning extinction. One dies physically when his spirit and his body separate. Neither the body becomes extinct, nor the spirit." Therefore, the evidence indicates that the Lake of Fire is a place of "lostness," not total annihilation.
Finally, the Greek word olethros is translated as "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (below), and this same Greek word is translated as "destroyed" in 1 Corinthians 5:5:
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction [olethros] and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature [literally, "the flesh"] may be destroyed [olethros] and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 5:5)
1 Corinthians 5:5 (above) shows us that a person's "flesh" (his sinful flesh nature) can be "destroyed" (olethros), while his spirit still has a conscious existence. Therefore, "destruction" (olethros) in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 does not automatically imply total annihilation. In fact, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (above) specifically describes "everlasting destruction" as being eternally "shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power." This agrees with the view that sinners will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, banished from the glorious presence of the Lord.
As we gain a better understanding of these three Greek words for "destruction," the fact that hell is a place of "destruction" actually strengthens the view that sinners will be tormented in hell forever. to be cont...

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 02:48 AM

Total Annihilation Argument #4:
People who believe that sinners will not spend eternity in hell sometimes argue that eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46) does not necessarily mean eternal punishing, and that eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2) does not necessarily mean eternal judging:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)

"instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:2)

In other words, the phrase "eternal judgment" might mean judgment that goes on eternally, but it can also mean a judgment with eternal consequences (annihilation). Those who hold the view that it means a judgment with eternal consequences (total annihilation) point out that Jesus secured eternal redemption for us, but it was a once and for all action, He does not continue the act of redemption eternally:

"He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:12)

My Response:
I agree that the English phrase, "eternal punishment," is ambiguous because it might mean a punishment that goes on eternally (i.e. eternal torment in hell) or it might mean a punishment with eternal consequences (i.e. total annihilation). The same ambiguity applies to the phrase, "eternal judgment." So how are we to know which way to interpret these phrases?

In situations where passages of Scripture are unclear or ambiguous, the rule of interpretation that should be applied is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. In other words, God never contradicts Himself in the Bible, so the way to understand an unclear or ambiguous passage is to interpret it in light of other, clearer, passages. What it boils down to is that if the weight of evidence in the Bible leads to the conclusion that hell is a place of eternal torment, then that is how we should interpret "eternal punishment" and "eternal judgment." If the weight of evidence agrees with the view that sinners are totally annihilated in hell, then that is how we should interpret "eternal punishment" and "eternal judgment." Therefore, the passages above do not contribute any evidence to our study of the consequences of hell.

Total Annihilation Argument #5:
Another argument is that the phrase, "the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever" in Revelation 14:9-11 does not necessarily mean that people are tormented in conscious agony forever:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11)

The argument here is that since this passage says that the "smoke" of their torment rises forever, perhaps it is the smoke that is eternal, not the torment. Those who hold this view point out that a similar phrase is used in Isaiah 34:8-10:

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 02:54 AM

hose who believe that sinners will be annihilated in hell say that if we visit Edom (in Southern Jordan) we will not see literal smoke rising eternally from it. The destruction of Edom had eternal consequences, but it is not burning eternally. This indicates (to some people) that the smoke is meant to be symbolic, and therefore the phrase, "the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever" in Revelation 14:9-11 (above) is probably symbolic as well.
My Response:
Personally, I don't buy the argument that the smoke in Isaiah 34:8-10 is merely symbolic just because we don't see "the smoke of Edom's destruction" rising up today. That passage is prophetic and has not happened yet, as we can easily see by reading chapter 34 of Isaiah in its entirety.
Now, why does Revelation 14:9-11 (above) say that "the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever"? What is the description of smoke meant tell us? Well, one way to look at it is to imagine throwing a log onto a fire. It burns and produces smoke. When the log has completely stopped burning then there is no longer any smoke. If the log could feel pain then we might say that the smoke of its torment rises while it is burning. The only way for the smoke of its torment to rise forever is for the log to actually burn forever. Likewise, the only way for the smoke of a sinner's torment to rise forever is if the sinner burns forever.
Therefore, when Revelation 14:9-11 says that "the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever," the most reasonable explanation is that the sinners themselves are burning forever. In fact, the rest of verse 11 specifically says that "There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This echoes Revelation 20:10 which says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever." The implication is that throughout all eternity, sinners will have no rest from their torments.
Five Arguments in Favor of Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell:
Eternal Torment Argument #1:
The Bible specifically describes people being tormented in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever:
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."(Revelation 14:9-11) These two passages describe the "beast" (the Antichrist), the "false prophet," and all those who receive the "mark of the beast" being tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of burning sulfur. Therefore, the Bible specifically describes sinners being tormented for eternity in hell, which provides Scriptural precedent for the view that all sinners will suffer eternal conscious agony in the Lake of Fire.
For example, in Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 (above), the apostle John shows us that the Lake of Fire is the place where certain sinners will be tormented forever, and then just five verses later he tells us that all sinners will be cast into that same Lake of Fire:

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 03:00 AM

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)

Since the Lake of Fire is the place where the beast, the false prophet, etc., will be tormented forever, and since all sinners will be thrown into the same lake of burning sulfur, the most natural and reasonable conclusion is that all sinners will suffer conscious agony in hell for all eternity.

Eternal Torment Argument #2:
Several Old Testament passages describe the eternal fire of hell in a way which clearly demonstrates the Jewish view that hell is a place of everlasting burning, not a place of annihilation:

"The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31)

"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14)

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24)

The first two passages above describe sinners burning in unquenchable fire. The imagery here is of eternal torment in fire, not total annihilation. The third passage says that a sinner's "worm" will not die, nor will his fire be quenched. This passage is quoted by Jesus in the New Testament:

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48)

The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.147) explains this passage by saying that the Greek word geena ("Gehenna," often translated into English as "hell") refers to a site near Jerusalem that "became Jerusalem's refuse dump where fires burned continually to consume regular deposits of worm-infested garbage. In Jewish thought the imagery of fire and worms vividly portrayed the place of future eternal punishment for the wicked. ... The worm (internal torment) and the unquenchable fire (external torment) ... vividly portray the unending, conscious punishment that awaits all who refuse God's salvation. The essence of hell is unending torment and eternal exclusion from His presence." The reason the worm does not die and the fire does not go out is because sinners are never annihilated. They continue to exist forever, and therefore the worm has "food" to eat forever and the fire has fuel to consume forever.

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 03:05 AM

Eternal Torment Argument #3:
Jesus described hell as a fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but He also described it as a place of darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth:
"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:42)
"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:49-50)
"But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12)
"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'" (Matthew 22:13)
"And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'" (Matthew 25:30)
Jude tells us that this "blackest darkness" has been reserved for sinners forever:
"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." (Jude 1:13)
Since this blackest darkness has been "reserved forever," it emphasizes the eternal nature of the punishment which sinners will receive.
Eternal Torment Argument #4:
In the following passage, Jesus makes a direct comparison between the eternal nature of life (for Christians) and the eternal nature of punishment (for sinners):
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal (aionios) fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aionios) life." (Matthew 25:41,46)
Notice that in each case, the word "eternal" is translated from the same Greek word aionios. The fire is "eternal" (aionios), the punishment is "eternal" (aionios), and the life is "eternal" (aionios). The implication is that a Christian's life will go on forever, the fires of hell will go on forever, and a sinner's punishment will go on forever.

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 03:13 AM

Eternal Torment Argument #5:
Hell (the Lake of Fire) is never described as being temporary. Instead, the eternal nature of hell is constantly stressed throughout Scripture:
"The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31)
"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14)
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24)
"His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12)
"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8)
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48)
"His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Luke 3:17)
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:2)
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)
"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." (Jude 1:13)
"He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:10-11)
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
The eternal nature of hell is constantly stressed throughout the Bible. Why is hell eternal? Why will the fires of hell burn forever? The purpose of hell is for the punishment of sinners, so if the fires of hell never go out then it must mean that the punishment of sinners will never end. If sinners were all annihilated in hell then at some point the fire would no longer have any "fuel" and would no longer be needed, so it would go out.

gone_to_pa

11-13-2006, 03:19 AM

last one......phew, that wasn't easy. I won't being doing that long a post agian, but I believed this was the best explanation I have seen of mt thoughts on this subject. I had taken a bunch of notes from this and some other stuff whcih I might share at another time:
However, hell is never described as being temporary. There is not a single passage of Scripture that specifically describes any sinners being totally annihilated, but there are passages which specifically describe sinners suffering agony forever, as we saw earlier.
Conclusion

For all of the above reasons I can only conclude that hell is a place of eternal, fiery, conscious agony where sinners will be shut out from the presence of God forever. I would much prefer to believe that sinners will receive a temporary punishment in hell (perhaps based on the extent and magnitude of their sins) before being put out of their misery by being annihilated. However, I can't find any justification at all in Scripture for that view, and therefore I must discard it. I believe that God is infinitely and perfectly fair, and therefore whatever punishment sinners receive will be perfectly fair and we will have no cause to accuse God of being unfair in any way.

There is, however, another view which is sometimes called "Ultimate Reconciliation" or "Universal Salvation" or simply "Universalism." The basic idea is that sinners will not spend eternity in hell, nor will they be annihilated. Instead, every person who ever lived will ultimately receive salvation, even if they have to spend a period of time suffering in hell. Those who hold this view argue that the Greek words which are translated as "eternal" and "for ever and ever" do not actually mean eternal, and therefore no sinners will spend eternity in hell. Many of the flaws in this and other Universal Salvation arguments are well addressed at the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry website, so I won't repeat the arguments here. It would be nice if Universalism were true, but I believe that this doctrine is flawed. The greatest weight of evidence that I see in Scripture supports the view that sinners will be tormented in hell for ever and ever, because God looks at sin with a deeper revulsion and hatred than we can ever imagine. Let the horror of the ultimate fate of sinners spur us on in our evangelism!

I hope this has been helpful, and may the Lord abundantly bless you as you study His Word!

Thank-you for an ear. I had to re-read this like four times to really get a grasp on it.
Always in peace GTP

watchman_2

11-13-2006, 07:03 AM

gtp,

I appreciate all of the hard work that you have done; but, you have not seen the overall picture and placed the scriptures in the proper context of time. The scriptures debated take place in the second earth age. The lake of fire is the instrument used by God to cull out those that don't overcome Satan and to carry out Satan's punishment.

One can check out the phrase 'forever and ever',

G165
&#945;&#953;&#787;&#969;&#769;&#957;
aio&#772;n
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

As one can see, the phrase is not intended to extend beyond the second earth age.

The lake of fire, irrespective of whether one believes it is eternal torture, is not eternal. It serves its purpose at the end of the second earth age and is no more thereafter in the third earth age.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

These scriptures should put this mattter to rest.

I hope that this helps you see the error in your exegesis.

kimberlyfredrick

11-13-2006, 03:02 PM

OK guys...what about this. The human soul is/is not immortal. I don't have my studies with me but if memory serves me right. Our soul is NOT created immortal, therefore the lake of fire causes the soul to perish...comepletely gone! Only through salvation for true beleivers do we put on incorruptable souls. Souls which BECOME immortal. Any comments?

david_munson

11-13-2006, 03:46 PM

I'd have to agree with GTP on this issue.
The exegesis was done with contextual balance and is accurate in it's indicative application.

I really don't like the thought that there are those who will suffer for all eternity but I have to accept that God knows far better than I do why it has to be that way.

The very nature of sin is beyond our comprehention and for the Lord to assign such a punishment it must be so heinous to Him that we fail to see the depth of it.(no surprise there)

I would like to think that God views things as I do but I know He does not.His sight is such that He can see the marrow in our bones and the thoughts and intents of our hearts.

I am sure He will show us the reason why and we will have no doubts when we are made knowledgable about the true nature and the depth of sin.

The thought of eternal punishment should be a tremendous motivation to reach the lost.
If I thought that I would just be gone,what would prevent me from doing my own thing?
There would be no reason to worry if I was just going to be gone.(maybe I'm having fun as I am)

Eat drink and be merry for tommorrow we cease to exist isn't much to worry about and is not much of a motivation to do good or otherwise.
It is enough reason not to care about any consiquences though.

That is one reason I don't except the theory of total annihilation.Jesus warned about hell more than any other person in the Bible.
It has to be important enough for Him to have warned so many times about it.

Just my tweny two cents worth.(due to inflation)

Dave

}

angie0401

11-13-2006, 04:24 PM

gtp,
I also appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts. There were some thought-provoking points in it, but I still tend to lean towards the total annihilation.

David,
I understand your point about trying to fit YHVH into a "human" mold, but I don't think (at least from my standpoint and I would think the SC students either) that this is what we are doing. I agree that for the lost, the thought of being eternally punished would be more of an incentive to follow Jesus, but I don't think that is true love or true belief - it's just being scared. I don't believe that Father wants us to love and serve Him out of fear, but out of a true love for Him and what He has done for us.

I have to say that I think that this is a very interesting discussion and I have enjoyed reading all the posts. However, I think it is one of those things that those of us on different sides of the issue will never fully agree on, this side of eternity.

Thanks for all of the posts - they have all been great to read and study.

abiyah

11-13-2006, 08:34 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifHi There GoneToPA & ALL:

I have began to respond to a few comments in which you have made in your above posts. However, I am now pressed for time [ as usual...LOL !] and can no longer continue to comment/respond to your above posts, yet I hope to be back later today or tomarrow. You will find my posts in response to your posts under the appropriate thread entitled ' The Lake of Fire', in which our sister Terluvire worked so hard at transferring all those post so that we could stay on topic. Hey... she'd make a real fine moderator. LOL ! " )

Tom, I would also like to say that I truly appreciate all your above posts, as they do indeed drive me straight onto Father's Word, and for that I also thank you. " )

Abiyah : )

skooter942000

11-13-2006, 08:42 PM

[GROUP]

:The Book of REVELATION:

This BOOK/WORK has the most symbolism
of any book in GOD'S WORD.

- It confuses many.

- How long is ALL Eternity,
for a SOUL that is to be - Blotted-OUT
- (I.E. ERASED).

???

= Not very LONG.

The Book of the LIVING, (Is for ONES SOUL).

If your not in this book (then........)

Most read right over the Final few verses
in Revelation Chapter 20...

- Why is this?

Even Death and HELL shall be destroyed.

[Deut 4:24]
"OUR GOD IS A ['CONSUMING'] FIRE".
Heb/'akal - This means JUST THAT!!!

- So.........think about this.

The SMOKE alone goes up (Eternally).

When a SOUL is extinguished. (That's that)

.....of satan....

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries
by the multitude of thine iniquities,
by the iniquity of thy traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire
from the midst of thee,
it shall devour thee,
and I will bring thee to ashes
upon the earth in the sight
of all them that behold thee.

- get it?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which
were in it; and death and hell delivered up the
dead which were in them: and they were judged
every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written
in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire.

- The LAKE is not ETERNAL.
The state of the Sentence (IS).

- The LOSS of LIFE /2cd Death
= (means the SOUL DIES).

satan is referred to as the SON of PERDITION.
the SON sentenced to PERISH.

- satan is not a flesh being.

- Is this more clear?

watchman_2

11-14-2006, 01:52 AM

I must state [again] how the theory of eternal torture is irrational in that it leaves us with a sense that God is cruel.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. 

Who would want to please a God that tells us that our loved ones that don't make it will be tortured forever?

Those that believe this silly theory of eternal torture need to decide if God is a God of love or one of cruelty. If love is your choice, you will examine the scriptures with the proper insight.

The exegesis presented by terluvire and abiyah [here as well as the Lake of Fire thread] can be squared throughout the scriptures. The analysis that gtp has presented leaves the Bible in contradiction with itself -- and, hence, is false.

skooter942000

11-14-2006, 03:26 AM

AMEN - Watchman

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

abiyah

11-14-2006, 02:35 PM

Watchman WROTE:
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: " The analysis that gtp has presented leaves The Bible in CONTRADICTION with itself -- and, hence, is false. " END QUOTE
-------------------------------------------------

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Morning to you Watchman !

I could not agree MORE with your above stated quote. EXACTLY ! IF one finds that The Bible is 'contradicting ' on a certain topic matter... then that one IS IN ERR.

And though I do so appreciate all the time and effort it takes to put forth a post(s) like GTPA's, I also found some of what was said within those post(s)to be contradicting. The Bible DOES NOT EVER contradict. And well... what can I say ? I have been there before, perhaps we all have at one time or another, yet whenever it seems as though there was a contradiction in God's Word, then I JUST know that I MUST search deeper, work harder, pray about it and ASK for understanding. Because anytime I THHOUHT something was contradicting in The Word, I KNEW that I was in err.

James 1:5
" If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to ALL men liberally, and upbraideth not; AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN him. "

Abiyah

watchman_2

11-14-2006, 03:28 PM

abiyah,

I couldn't agree more with your point,

anytime I THHOUHT something was contradicting in The Word, I KNEW that I was in err.

Of course, we all have been there at one point or another in our walk in these flesh bodies.

The problem that I see in the Christian world is that most churches attempt to make God's Word fit their theology instead of changing the churches' theology to square with the scriptures.

Many of us have come from such churches and have had all these contradictions taught to us. When we have challenged those that teach us such things, we are often put down, dismissed, or told we are of Satan.

Classic examples of this phenonmenon are the 'rapture' churches. These churches are so "caught up" [parity on I Thes. 4:17] in their tradition of man, that they have to rewrite the Bible [Gideon's, NKJV]in order to change it so that their members might not discover the truth.

So, in my opinion, the REAL threat to Christianity are churches themselves. Their priorities are to protect their traditions [false theology] ahead of seeking and preaching the truth.

david_munson

11-14-2006, 04:58 PM

Well folks,
once again we find both agreements and disagreements on some points.

I do agree that this side of eternity we will be engaged in such fashion.
Thank the Lord for agreeing to disagree.
I have found this topic to be civil and refreshing also.

Though we disagree about certain points,we do agree that Christ is most important to each of us.Without Him we would be in deep trouble to say the least.
Praise the Father for the Son's sacrifice for us.
The precious and Holy Blood shed for each of us.
Praise Him for the way He made for us to come to the Father when there was no way.

Jesus IS Lord.

}

watchman_2

11-14-2006, 07:13 PM

I do not believe that it is adequate to leave this topic with a conclusion that "we agree to disagree".

Most here, as individuals, only have to answer before God for our own beliefs/works. However, GTP is a preacher and, therefore, has a far greater liability for false theology. God's judgment starts at the pulpit.

Hence, GTP will not only have to answer for his own false position on the lake of fire, but also for misleading all others that he preaches this silly theory to.

There is only one correct position on this issue -- and the one that is incorrect is the one that gtp supports. Accordingly, it is very important for gtp to understand the error is his theology so he can desist in misleading those that he is supposed to instruct.

gone_to_pa

11-14-2006, 11:37 PM

Hi all,

Nah 1:2-3 "God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.
The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet."

1 Thess 1:9-10" For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
2 Thess 1:2-9 "Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

God is not cruel, but He is just and His judgements are righteous. I will not argue what God has told me in my heart. I will believe that the Lord just winks at sin, and allows people to use the grace He has allowed as a license. If you don't think he hates sin to His very essence, then you need to read about what was domne to His only begotten Son, on the cross on our behalf and He took our sin on Himself. Like Dave said, we can agree to disagree.
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

Peace GTP

watchman_2

11-15-2006, 05:01 AM

gtp,

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

You are aware that God's judgment starts with you preachers? You, alone, must accept responsibility for your teachings and will be held accountable by God for misleading souls with false theology.

The scriptures are very clear about this and we already know that you are in serious trouble with your false rapture teachings. Your lake of fire false teaching is just another.

It is an awesome responsibility to call oneself a preacher. I just hope that you realize the consequences associated therewith if you are wrong.

eagleman

11-15-2006, 04:46 PM

The theory of the rapture is easy to disprove it. the only thing is that people want to hold on to it like a security blanket. one is taken the other is left. Christ explaines who the one who is taken is taken by it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out.they are taken to the dead one which is a corpse in matt 24 . for any one to teach the opposite of what christ taught is very misleading and totaly false which makes it a lie. the word rapture in the english does not even mean what they are using it for. And the words caught up in 1st thess 4:17 do not even come close to the meaning of the word rapture. It means to be taken by force now that word AIR means breath which any body who understands the greek knows this means the spirit.How can any one even try to translate this word sky. it is not sky it is the Breath of life the spirit. and besides that this does not even take place untill the last trump. Paul makes that very clear in 1st corr 15:55 and in 2nd thess he tell how we will gather back to Him and that the falling away has to take place first and that son who is to perish will be reveealed the christ will returm. This is what is written through out the bible in places like matt24,mark13,luke21 in these places christ says after the days of that tribulation then shall they see the sign of the son of man. but they refuse to believe the truth so they can be saved christ even thier who ever shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved.the watchmen know we are in the 5th trumpet the time of sealing and wittnessing soon the 6th shall sound and they will all still be here it is so sad they can not understand this the hour is very late. we should not sleep as do others.

paul

eagleman

11-15-2006, 04:49 PM

we now have a chatroom for any one who would like to chat at the website www.christschurchofthezadok.com (http://www.christschurchofthezadok.com)

paul

david_munson

11-15-2006, 04:57 PM

I have a question and I hope it does not cause the pot to be stirred.

Why,
when some one qoutes a schollar who has made commentaries ,do some here say "you're listening to man's teaching" and then they themselves say some thing like ,"pastor Murray doesn't teach that or Bullinger teaches some thing else?

Isn't this ,how do I put it ,(no offense meant) I guess the best analogy would be
"the pot calling the kettle black?"

It just comes across that way.
I can but you can't.
Just doesn't seem balanced at all.
(like I said,no offence meant,just an observation)

Seriously,no offense meant.

Dave

}

eagleman

11-15-2006, 05:41 PM

I do not follow what you are saying at all it has nothing to do with what i posted. I did not even mention arnold murray or bullinger.I was talking about what the bible says and not even talking about any ones commentary so i do not know what you are talking about.

paul

watchman_2

11-15-2006, 06:52 PM

David,

Fair question. I think that you need to put the various quotes in the proper context. Sometimes I quote Bullinger's work to add to a discussion, I am not saying he is correct or incorrect -- just to be accurate as to the source of the information provided.

Sometimes folks ask what PM teaches and the replies are given in that context.

As one can see from the various discussions under the SC threads, the documentation for a theological position comes solely from the scriptures -- and not from any person's teachings.

If you take an objective view of gtp's analysis of the lake of fire topic, you can see that it is primarily based upon conjecture with little scriptural support. Of course, the SC students here, whom are grounded in the scriptures, will reject such poor exegesis everytime.

As for myself, I don't pay much attention to any so-called scholar whom cannot properly document their position in the scriptures, with reproof.

watchman_2

11-15-2006, 06:58 PM

eagleman,

You wrote, the only thing is that people want to hold on to it [the rapture] like a security blanket.

How true!!

The theory of the rapture has been thoroughly disproven to many detractors that frequent this site. To this day, they will hang onto this false theology and live in denial of the truth as if someone was trying to take away their most precious possession. The 'rapturists' are idol worshipers -- in that they place the theory ahead of God.

terluvire

11-15-2006, 07:01 PM

Dave,

I don't get where you're coming from. Our posts, when discussing God's word, only focus on God's word. I haven't seen where any of us said: "well, this is what Pastor Murray says"....and so forth.

We have quoted God's Word along with the Greek and Hebrew definitions.

Ter

david_munson

11-16-2006, 05:22 PM

I can understand how "some folks" hang on to the rapture as a security blanket but this does not apply to all who believe it.

Me for instance.
I don't hold on to it like a security blanket bacuse my security blanket is Christ Jesus.
(I don't even think about it very much)
I probably already said this ,
"to me the rapture makes no difference."
It isn't the primary focus.
It shouldn't be the primary focus because Christ is and while we are here we should be growing in the knowledge and grace of our Lord and sharing the good news with any that will listen.

I look (speeking for myself) for Christ every where in the lives of other people,in the scriptures and in daily life.

In places that people call cults or abberational Christian groups because there are always members in Christ throughout this world and in every place.(the universal body of Christ)

I have many disagreements on doctrine with the folks here but I agree that Jesus is Lord as you do and if Jesus is Lord in your life than you are a fellow member in particular.

The more we seek Christ the better we will understand the true nature of God.
(as much as is humanly possible,any way)
You know the routine,trip ,stumble ,fall ,get up and continue,repeat.
Lifes journey in the Spirit as we learn of Him every new day.
---
Though there is much that all believers can learn from one another,there will always be some disagreements.Yet if we seek the Christ in our fellow members lives the disagreements remain filled with His love towards each other through the unity of the Spirit.

Gods Love to all,
Dave

}

watchman_2

11-17-2006, 04:17 PM

David,

You wrote,

I can understand how "some folks" hang on to the rapture as a security blanket but this does not apply to all who believe it.

I agree with your writing. There will likely be many current rapturists whom, as the time of Christ's return approaches, will realize that the 'rapture' does not align itself with God's Word and may, thereby, cease following Satan's doctrine.

However, we do know, for it is written [Matt. 7:21-23], that many that profess to be practicing Christians will be rejected by Christ. We also know, for it is also written [Matt. 10:17-21], that many will betray their own family memebers prior to Christ's return.

Surely, when Satan [antichrist] is kicked out of heaven to earth prior to Christ's return and is pretending to be Christ that has come to 'rapture' the church, the 'rapturists' will truly believe he is Christ.

Clearly, the 'rapturists' will betray all other Christians, that stand for the true Christ and claim that the fake christ is Satan, and turn them in to Satan for trial. They will think, as you rapturists think today, that they are serving the true Christ.

Of course, you rapturists, that remain steadfast to Satan's doctrine of the rapture, will have a rude awakening when the true Christ returns. They will wish mountains fall upon them to hide their shame [Luk. 23:30].

david_munson

11-17-2006, 04:43 PM

Watchman,
there is not one scripture in the Word that states that Satan will rapture any one.
It states that he arises out of the sea (peoples) not that he comes in the clouds of the sky to take anyone away.
There is no "connect" to Satan and the rapture.

There is a connect to miracles to decieve though.
He will do amasing things to dupe people into thinking he is the Messiah.
Nothing about his coming in the clouds.

}

eagleman

11-17-2006, 05:25 PM

It is important in the last days to belive in the rapture or not to. because in the season of the fig tree thier is no room for mistakes because christ says in matt 24:13 Quote " But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved. Now what is this refering to? If you read to the end of this chapter you will see that this is very important to the people that will be living in that generation. the first thing that christ says is don't let any one decieve you, warning us that thier is a time of great deception comming before we gather back to christ. He is talking about the tribulation of the false christ with great signs and wonders that when this would happen it we be so decieving that He had to shorten the days or no one woud be saved. what don,t people get about this, this is a matter of salvation for those living in that time which we know is now.the ones who dont stay away from this deception suffer the WRATH OF GOD. why? because they recieved the mark of the Beast of revalations because they were told by SATANS MINISTERS they dont have to understand it because they are not going to be here. This is the very opposite of what the bible has writen . Who do we listen too MAN OR GOD? It is our choice to make. This is a matter of who is saved and who thinks they are. you may disagree with this but read again what christ says about this it is the most impotant teaching of this generation. The ones who have been decieved and have recieved the mark according to revelations is all the world except the ones who are written in the book, which are His ELECT. These are the ones that our changed at the 7th trump. They are called BRETHREN or FIRSTFRUITS they do not suffer the wrath of GOD because they did not worship the FALSE CHRIST AND HIS BEAST SYSTEM mentioned in rev 13:1. The one who do worship the FALSE CHRIST sufer the WRATH OF GOD as it is written in rev 14:9-10 among other places. the wrath of God our the vials in rev 16 they are not pleasant. Please do not allow your self to be in this group. These our not changed into the spirit body like the elect, But suffer the death of the flesh by dieing a horrible death. That is how they return to that spirit body. read of it and you will see.It is also spoken about in zechariah 14:12, It is not a pretty sight. To believe the LIE of the last days means they will suffer this while the elect our at the wedding. The marrige of the Lamb. It is not to late to repent and have salvation at this time, But the time draweth near that it will be to late and the door will be shut and the marrige will take place as it is written in matt 25:10. Why? Because not enough OIL WHICH IS TRUTH. study and you won't be decieved.

paul

watchman_2

11-17-2006, 06:21 PM

David,

There is not one word in the Bible that there will be a 'rapture'!

I just explained how you 'rapturists' are defacto Satan worshipers. The scriptures are quite clear that God is against your fly-away theory [Eze. 13:18-23]. It is your decision whether or not to accept the truth.

It is true that the Bible does not state that Satan will deceive people by stating that he has come to 'rapture' the church. There is no such thing as the 'rapture' to begin with. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will recognize that, in order for Satan to deceive the whole world, he will be telling people what they want to hear.

Of course, you 'rapturists' will love hearing that Satan is here to rapture you away. You rapturists, if holding true to form, will think that Satan is Christ.

Hopefully, you and many of your fellow rapturists, will see the error in your ways prior to that day.

arron

11-17-2006, 07:10 PM

well i for one will be caught up up up to meet HIM in the air as the bible says alive or dead in JESUS i will arise and go. it will not be the false christ or the antichrist that i fly away with but with THE TRUE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. GOD will keep HIS OWN and will not allow us to be deceived for we will know any of the deceptions of satan

david_munson

11-17-2006, 07:43 PM

Watchman,
sometimes I think you're hopeless.(no insult)
You assume to know the heart of other people who put their trust in "the Christ."

You have no idea who is or is not saved but you insist that Christians worship Satan simply because they believe in the rapture.

Even you must know that mindset is flawed beyond reason.

It is what we do with Christ that saves.
Why do you not see that?
I just don't understand how any one can claim that they know it all and that minor doctrines
(yes it's a minor doctrine)
will matter where as it concerns salvation.

One is not saved because they believe "serpent seed" or rapture theology.
One is saved according to their heart towards God's gift,plus nothing.

Now ,that is not to say that we just sit around waiting for the end or the rapture.We are to grow in the knowledge of Christ while sharing the Gospel with others.

Put simply,the Gospel is the shed Blood of Jesus Christ for all mankind.
Without this application in our lives there can be no audience with the Father.
Unless He sees the Blood ,He sees our sin.

Those who are His will not be deceived because when He comes we will be like Him for we will see Him as He really is.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Calling believers Satan worshippers is a very bad thing my friend,very bad indeed.
You could be calling the Holy Spirit Satanic by doing that.
You do know that the Holy Spirit dwells in believers don't you?
If so,I would think you'd try to avoid such.

Go ahead and call me a Satan worshipper but know this,I trust and believe in Christ the Lord.
I don't call people demonic just because they believe some things different than I do.

That is absurd and ignorent.
(lacking in understanding)

Dave

}

watchman_2

11-18-2006, 06:41 AM

David,

I have provided you the scriptures. I said that you rapturists are "defacto" Satan worshipers because you think that you are going to be taken away before the endtime. Clearly, the scriptures tell us that the blessed are here to the end.

I never said that you rapturists were "knowing" Satan worshipers. Of course, you think that you now serve Jesus. However, when the time comes you 'rapturists', if true to form, will follow Satan while thinking he is the true Christ coming to rapture you away.

You have no idea who is and who is not saved either or are you inferring that you do?

Did I ever say that belief in the serpent seed doctrine or any other Biblical doctrine other than salvation through John 3:16 qualifies one? Of course, I have not and you are a silly fool for making such an inference.

The problem that you 'rapturists' face with respect to John 3:16 is which christ do you believe is the begotten son of God. It is my position that, when the time comes, you rapturists, by way of your devotion to and work for Satan [mistaken identity], will be telling the true Christ, that you believe that Satan [antichrist] is the son of God.

Accordingly, you rapturists that hold true to form will lose that opportunity here in the flesh for salvation. As God tells us in Eze. 13:21, God will deliver many away from the false 'rapture' churches and into God's true church.

My hope for you is that you will be one that is delivered. Otherwise and if you don't have a change of heart regarding the false 'rapture', Matt. 7:21-23 will surely apply to you.

Surely, the innocent blood of the perfect lamb of God was price sufficient for all whom believe and repent. It has never been the case that Christ's sacrifice was not good enought. The true question is whether we do what it takes to qualify.

You quoted I John 3:2, which takes place when Christ returns in the same transfigured body that he departed in. This scripture has nothing to do with you 'rapturists' for the damage is done by then. The antichrist returns first and you rapturists will likely follow Satan. Hence, you rapturists, holding true to form, are the ones that Christ never knew.

You seriously lie when you write, Calling believers Satan worshippers is a very bad thing my friend,very bad indeed.

I have never said that and you know it! Again, you demostrate your lack of reading skills.

You also wrote, You do know that the Holy Spirit dwells in believers don't you?

Your inference that I don't know this is absurd. It is you whom give heed to seducing spirits [I Tim. 4:1] -- by following that unbiblical 'rapture' theory. Certainly, the Holy Spirit would never deliver one into false theology.

You are clearly the absurd and ignorant one.

david_munson

11-18-2006, 05:12 PM

In your own words.
" I said that you rapturists are "defacto" Satan worshipers."
--
You need some reading comprehention.

You aslo said,
"You seriously lie when you write, Calling believers Satan worshippers is a very bad thing my friend,very bad indeed."
---
I am a believer and you called me a Satan worshipper and the Devil's tit.
Your use of semantics is poor and clearly seen.

I say that you are an accuser of the brethren and you back it up with your own words.
You just can't help it.

Soooo,
as jesture of peace
(mostly for the consideration of others here)
,I will ask you not to address me on these issues.
You cause way too much division and I want nothing to do with that.

Thank you,
Dave

P.S. Christ is my Lord and Saviour.
Christ died on the cross,not Satan.

}

watchman_2

11-18-2006, 07:01 PM

David,

I have been abundantly clear over the months regarding the false 'rapture' theory. You have been present here all of that time.

Belief in the 'rapture' is a defacto belief in Satan for the 'rapture' is Satan's doctrine. It is wholly unbiblical -- a tradition of man based upon the dream of Margaret McDonald in 1830, which she, herself, labeled as evil.

I have also been very clear that those that do follow this doctrine of Satan do so while thinking that they are loving the true Christ.

You need to break out your dictionary once in awhile so that you can understand the meaning of the word "defacto".

I'll leave you in peace regarding this subject as long as you leave the subject alone here as well.

david_munson

11-18-2006, 09:01 PM

Ok,
we can agree together to leave this topic at rest between you and I.

I think we would probably both agree ,that is the best way to leave differences that have no resolution.

Enjoy the sunshine if you have it there today and most of all Praise the Lamb of God
who comes back as the Lion of Judah.
The Only Worthy One.

Dave
}

charliborn

12-14-2006, 08:03 PM

there have been LOADS of comments... its scary really that one person could spark off such a MAJOR convo. Not that I disagree. We need lots more real Christians. I may not be a Christian, but the fake Christians are doing my head in. And please don't try to convert me. And if you don't, I'll be very grateful. Even though I'm starting Wicca, I know that Christianity isn't a false path, its just a different one. Like a waterfall or a river path that both get to the park. I think the more real Christians in the world there are the happier we'll all be.

abiyah

12-14-2006, 09:16 PM

Charliborn WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " I know that Christianity isn't a false path, its just a different one. " END QUOTE
*********************************************** **

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifHey There Charliborn !

One day..... all there will be is 'real' Christians in the world, that being the next world 'age', which is The Heaven Age. " ) That's a real fine thought for me. But with regards to your above qoute, this is what came to my mind, and well.... I just simply would like to share it. : ) Not pushing anything on you, for the choice is all yours. : ) My suggestion would be to choose wisely with reagrds to seeking out 'wicca'[ Proverbs 1:7].

Matthew 7:13 - 14
" ENTER ye IN AT THE STRAIT GATE: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in there at; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is THE WAY [ John 14:6 ], which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. "

Matthew 11:29 *** Christ Speaking Here
" Take My yoke upon you, and LEARN OF ME [ If you do that, LEARN OF HIM, indeed ye will find the right Way/path to take ]; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye SHALL find rest unto your souls. "



(Message edited by Abiyah on December 14, 2006)

david_munson

12-16-2006, 08:50 PM

Charliborn,
I hope that some day you meet Christ on your journey and taste the Love He has for you.

Baruch Hashem Adonia,
Dave
}

gone_to_pa

12-28-2006, 11:53 PM

Dave,

Old Wishy-Washer Man still at it ehh? He should read the book Sybil. It's his own autobiography. " A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways, did I say all? LOLOLO YEs, I think so.

skooter942000

01-01-2007, 06:40 AM

To whom this may concern.

The subject:

"The REAL threat to Christianity"

[....is]

(1.) satan's lies
(2.) Miscommunication
(3.) Unbelievers
(4.) Lack of TRUE LOVE

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to stand against the
wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against
flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the
darkness of this world, against spiritual
wickedness in high [places].

AMEN & AMEN
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Eph 6:23 Peace [be] to the brethren,
and love with faith, from God the Father
and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Don <*))><

sharon

01-05-2007, 01:19 PM

charliborn.... Hope you reconsider that whole wicca thing. I once thought it a harmless thing that some would out grow. I was wrong, it is not harmless.
It is hard to be real wicca, as their motto is to do NO harm, unlike satanist who's motto is to do as thou will. But you must do NO harm. That is a lot harder. One, you can not have others kill animals for you to eat, for that is harmful. For the spilling of innocent blood is harmful. A real wicca does not put death into herself. There are few real wicca. Lots of rules if you follow the real wicca and not the players and there are lots and lots of them. And it you are not real why bother at all.
And do not worry that I will try and convert you to Christianity as I know that only God can do that. I am not judging you I am just a bit fearful, and would tell my own daughters the same thing I have told you.
I do like the way you look at Christians, wish the whole world felt that way. We would have peace here on earth. But I am not getting my hopes up.

gatordave

01-05-2007, 01:33 PM

This threa is entitled "The Real Threat to Christianity." And the real threat is the vast, vast majority of people and thier leaders who have power and call themselves Christians.

dave www.crimebustersnow.com (http://www.crimebustersnow.com)

arron

01-05-2007, 08:35 PM

the real threat to christianty are the ones who claim to know CHRIST but refuse to call HIS NAME. they encourage people to not eat meat which GOD created for man to enjoy and they want others to fast (starve) listen all that is the markings of a cult they also want say their fathers name. why because he is one that they dont want people to know who he really is, they have said themselves that they follow satan in some things.

(Message edited by arron on January 05, 2007)

angie0401

01-05-2007, 09:01 PM

What in the world are you talking about arron? I don't think you are talking about any SC students, so who are you talking about and why are you doing it here?

arron

01-05-2007, 09:54 PM

the thread was named the real threat to christianity.. that is why i said what i said. i did not say it was for sc ers but i was simply stating a fact. i did it here because of the name of this thread. and who it is i will not say that is something else.

angie0401

01-05-2007, 10:07 PM

Thanks for the explanation arron. I just wanted to clear up that you were not talking about any SC students.
I have seen sharon talking about abstaining from meat (which is fine if that is what she wants to do), but I wasn't aware that sharon was part of any organized group, so I don't know why you would start throwing the cult accusation around.

Also, I hope you have proof that sharon (or whomever you are accusing) claimed to follow satan. That is a pretty serious accusation, arron.

arron

01-06-2007, 06:37 AM

did i cal whatever the name is by name? if they think it is them then they must have some real proof that i am talking about them i havent called any names. and want. i have been accused by name by some and i did not call their name and want. i have been told i told lies about them. how would they know??????

arron

01-06-2007, 06:40 AM

angie0401

01-06-2007, 05:40 PM

and angie before you start making accusation as you just did.. perhaps if you want to know some things you should check out what some have written ( unless they remove their posts ) about following satan and about people coming to GOD other ways than through CHRIST JESUS THE SON OF JEHOVAH GOD

arron, I don't think I made an accusation of any sort. However, I have read what some said about people being able to come to God through ways other than Jesus and I absolutely disagree with them. I just TRY not to go to other threads and tell people that I think they are wrong. Sometimes I just can't help it, but for the most part I try not to. I do try to say a prayer for any that I feel are lost or misled.

Now as far as following satan - I didn't see that. Could you point me to the thread where that was said (you don't have to name names, just the thread would be fine).

thanks

gone_to_pa

01-23-2007, 03:29 AM

in Rev 20:10 the HOLY BIBLE tells us that there is a place for the wicked.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

2) the worlds, universe

3) period of time, age

Notice the word eternity, aion in the Greek. An unbroken. This is why Jeus had to pay such an aweful price for us. If all that was going to happen to us is that we were going to take a dirt nap as the Arnold Murray Cult teaches, then why would Christ had to have suffered like He did. I'll tell you why, because He had to save us from an eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Murryites, like to tell you that God is love, (which by the way He is) but that He would never allow such a thing. This is New Age thinking. If God is love and He is, why did Hiroshema happen? or Nogosaki? How about all the horrible natural disasters as of late. Sunami's, Katrina, surely if God is love, He could have steered those planes from the World trade Towers.
God is the same today, yesterday and forever and if He saw that men were so corrupted that He decided to flood the earth, what makes us think there is no eternal place of punishment for those who denied the sacrifice His Son made for us.
Better wake up Angie and the rest of you. Call you parents and ask to come home, and if you need help with a great deprogrammer, I can help. All cults have many of the same charectoristics. Denial, Self Righteousness, Superiority Complex. If you don't agree with them fully, your the enemy, a tool of the devil. The go against Biblical Christainity and their leaders always come up with some sort of twist or "new revelation" as they put it, that no one can fully understand but them. Sounds fishey! It is fishy. Don't attempt to befriend these cults. They will make an outward appearence as though they want to get to know you, while all along, you have been marked and enemy. When someone wishes to no longer argue with them, and doesn't agree fully with their twisted doctrines of demons, they will tell everyone you left because you lacked the knowledge they have. You "just didn't have what it takes" And they are right, you didn't have what it takes to conform to their twisted thinking lead by Mr Arnold Murray, a New Wave bigot in the industry. Just sit and listen to one of his taking e-mails from you sessions. You can feel the pride and prejustice roll off him, like water off a ducks feathers.

If your smart enough, don't say a word, just sit back and watch professional wolves in sheeps clothing. Of course they won't all be like that, some are bold in their denial of who they are! GTP

gone_to_pa

01-23-2007, 03:42 AM

The Real Threat to Christianity is people just like the ones you will meet on this thread who claim they believe that Eve had sex with the serpent in the Garden of Eve, and then want you to believe that Moses as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, left such an important part out. I mean if it's true, it is not disobediance that is the first sin, but fornication. haven't read that one yet, so we'll believe God no matter how much Hebrew and Greek and Chaldean they claim to know for even their exegesis is false most of the time. Did Eve disobey God by eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, or was she into farm animlas and beasts of the field and had a serpent make love to her right in front of her husband, for the Bible clearly states that when she took a bite of the fruit, he was in the Original Language; elbow to elbow, so it's only right to assume that while they were having an orgie of pleasure with the beasts of the field, that Adam was involved too. That also makes him a fornicator. I could have sworn their sin was disobedience. Moses must have gotten it all wrong. Or, is it that the New Age Murrayites have tried to deceive another generation into believing a LIE? No, not Arnold Murray, he has gotten it right, while all our church fathers failed to see this minute point in the same exact Bible that he reads from on hios daily TV broadcast. I'll bet his ratings are up, just by saying such an absurdity. That's what television is all about though, isn't it? RATINGS!!!!????? WOW, WHAT A WAY TO RAISE YOUR WORTH AS A TELEVANGELIST. EVE AND THE SNAKE GOT IT ON!!! WOW, EVEN ARNIE HAS TO BE PATTING HIMSELF ON THE BACK FOR COMING UP WITH THAT LINE OF MANURE PLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHACCCCCKKKK

gone_to_pa

01-23-2007, 03:44 AM

skooter942000

01-23-2007, 03:56 AM

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Eze 18:21 ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

```````````````````````````````````````````````

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

angie0401

01-23-2007, 04:08 AM

Better wake up Angie and the rest of you. Call you parents and ask to come home,
My mom babysat for me Saturday night for my anniversary and as much as she loves me, I pretty sure she doesn't want any of us kids to move back home.

Are you under the assumption that we all live in some type of commune or something? Or are you just being contentious on purpose?

They will make an outward appearence as though they want to get to know you, while all along, you have been marked and enemy.
If you're referring to me, you are wrong. I was never pretending to be your friend (it was genuine) and I never marked you an enemy. The problem was when I didn't jump to your defense in the exact way you thought I should.

You know, I wasn't even going to tell you this, but what the heck. When things were getting pretty heated on the Lake of Fire thread, I had a LOT going on and barely had time to read, much less post. From what I did read, I didn't like some of the things that were said (and attitudes that were showing) on BOTH sides. And you know what, I did tell my friends what I thought about it. Did I run on factnet and jump down their throats? Nope. But did I stick up for you? Yep.

Why don't you go ahead and pull a Vivian and spit on me now. I guess YOU were the one pretending to want to be my friend, because I sure wasn't (pretending).

bluewater2

01-23-2007, 05:07 PM

Logic and reason, combined with sound scientific investigation are a threat to Christianity and all belief in god. Unfortunately, humanity's fear of death and the idea that this is all we get puts too much pressure on people to be good NOW, enjoy life NOW, do good WORKS NOW, so many must believe in mysticism and superstition to make sense of their lives. It is obvious by the rediculous tone of every thread in this SC topic that Christianity does not breed tolerance or understanding.

dodge

01-23-2007, 06:05 PM

I agree, Bluewater; the biggest threat to Christianity is when people finally see that their "holy book" is nothing but mythological tales passed down through millenia that came from psychological projection of inner processes; when they see that 'god', 'christ', 'satan', 'angels' and 'devils' are metaphors for archetypes that exist in the collective unconscious. But there is hope that they will withdraw their projections and by doing so will become whole. It takes a lot of work though; and the courage to go deeply within in order to examine their psyches to realize that the only satans and christs that exist are inside their heads.

skooter942000

01-23-2007, 06:36 PM

Mat 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him,
Get thee hence, Satan:
for iT is written,
Thou shalt worshiP the Lord thy God,
and him only shalt thou serve.

watchman_2

01-23-2007, 06:39 PM

Well, if we assume that the analysis of bw2 and dodge is correct, then we owe our existence here on this planet to Evolution, which means all life owes its origin to a random interaction of a lightning bolt [or other source of energy] with the primordial soup of chemicals that existed on this planet millions/billions of years ago.

LOL

skooter942000

01-23-2007, 06:54 PM

Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

abiyah

01-23-2007, 08:03 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifGreat post of The Scriptures Skooter ! Thank you and God Bless.

Agape,

Abiyah

godchild

01-23-2007, 10:00 PM

I'll bet you do love this one:
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Since you believe your mother (Eve, the mother of all living) was a whore and your father was a pervert and adulterer, you probably interpret that verse to mean that's what you should be. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Just like terlu who thinks when men began to call on the name of the Lord, it means they began to profane it. Sounds like you all have satan and God mixed up, according to your teachings. But that's okay. That's your choice. Just don't expect others to swallow that vile garbage. We serve the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior.

dodge

01-23-2007, 10:38 PM

ADAM AND EVE
by Victor Farrell

Adam and Eve were all alone
In a garden all their own
With nothing very much to do
But laze around, enjoy the view
Bored right to the bone

Eve mentally began to wonder
Deep within herself she’d ponder
Why was Adam? Why was she?
Why did Eden come to be?
What was the fruit? Where was the tree?

Deep within one day she found
Below the waist coiling round
Her spine, the body’s branching tree
A serpent sighing, "Take of me."
Though it made not a sound

So ham, with lowered head, she breathed
The serpent climbed, and with great speed
Around her spine it did unwind
Up and up into her mind
Then Eve knew the truth indeed

Adam awed at this new Eve
Listened, and he did believe
Then with the help of his mate
Went within and it was great
What kundalini did achieve

When next their Makers came around
One look, they knew, and with a frown
We cannot keep them here, cried they
They’ll find the tree of life one day
Then, even we can’t put them down!

The garden of ignorance left behind
They made a life with all Mankind
Teaching all that sought to know
The truth, and smiled at student’s glow
To teach was joy, a precious find

This story I tell of Adam and Eve
Merely points out what one can achieve
Seekers of truth can with true desire
Find the kingdom within if really on fire
To know the whole Truth and believe

Aum, ham sa, so ham, Is the road
I Am That That I Am are the keys to unload
The physical chains, and all illusion
The chakas will open and clear all confusion
The dream is lucid: It’s yours to unfold

Now you have the answer, if seeker you be
Who would know the truth, listen to me
In this very lifetime it could all end for you
Let aum, so ham, ham sa show you true
It’s your lucid dream, don’t you see?

You are much more than you seem to be!

skooter942000

01-23-2007, 11:18 PM

SC Students:

Jhn 15:18 ¶ If the world hate you,
ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.




Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.



TERRI is RIGHT, (She stands with CHRIST),
- as do 'i'.

- Try it sometime.

Amazing http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

i share nothing but scripture.
No commentary.

- And gc still argues away, (Without End).

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Pro/Pro015.html#18

The HATE you have (gc) shows what you believe.
CHRIST did not accuse the Brethren.

- You Egg others on like no one else.
You look for a fight at every opportunity.

Who here has even admitted that they were
DUPED by a CULT. (a show of Hands please)

And because of this, Attacks anyone who believes differently than they. (Which BTW is "ALL")

- Admit it.

Not everyone is at the same level.

some prefer the MILK, (rather than the MEAT).
- so be it.

- i am a carnivore myself.
Understand the CONTEXT of this statement.
- i like the MEAT of the WORD.
"MEAT" is GOOD.

- BTW- <who> is "we"?

---------------------------------------------
RE: from gc

We serve the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior.

--------------8<---cut-----------------------

i ask Which christ is it that you think you serve?

= [Mal 4] - Matt 24/Luke 21/Mark 13

The Christ you serve is the FALSE MESSIAH,
meaning - (satan).
- (as do certain others)

- RAPTURE THAT!!!


Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the
dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn again and rend you. 

"TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER BEEN SPOKEN"

Would CHRIST, (If HE surfed the WEB), and posted
in these groups ,(Would HE post exactly as 'you')?

- i think not.

The Blind cannot lead the Blind.
remaining Blind is a choice.

People have tried to help here.

And you threw that help back into their
faces.

(And continually abuse others)
- with your negative messages.

-just like you wish to be abused yourself.

- Oh right, that's not GOD'S way.
That's not scriptural.

So why act in this manner?
Romans Chapter one is pretty clear.

- as are these verses


Lev 19:17 ¶ Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:
I [am] the LORD.




"ALMIGHTY GOD" is JUDGE
- And JUDGE HE SHALL.

(...its in the BOOK)http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

Don >*))><

bluewater2

01-24-2007, 12:47 AM

"The Book" is an old book of fables used to transmit some universal truths and superstition. "The Book" has been revised and edited so many times that even the Jews do not recognize what Xtians call the New Testament. And the Old Testament is nothing but a warped and edited Tanakh. Jesus was no more special than you or I unless you believe in mysticism and superstition. Science is slowly removing the blinders that much of religion relies on people wearing in order to decieve.

skooter942000

01-24-2007, 03:09 AM

Psa 2:1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

bluewater2

01-24-2007, 04:22 AM

What?

david_munson

01-24-2007, 05:29 PM

Hey Watchman,
let's have a party,we agree on something.

"Well, if we assume that the analysis of bw2 and dodge is correct, then we owe our existence here on this planet to Evolution, which means all life owes its origin to a random interaction of a lightning bolt [or other source of energy] with the primordial soup of chemicals that existed on this planet millions/billions of years ago.

LOL"
---
Wait until they try to explain to God that He doesn't exist.

}

watchman_2

01-24-2007, 06:04 PM

David,

Thanks, we should have a party. Nice to know that we can agree on one subject. There is probably a lot more that we agree upon than each of us thinks. Too much time spent on issues disagreed upon. Better to let the disagreements alone.

I have already been thru the Evolution argument with these folks at the Evolution thread. Of course, Evolution is easily disproven. This leaves, by default, that life exists as a result of divine work.

david_munson

01-24-2007, 06:28 PM

Yeah,
I too think that the things we agree on concerning Christ will benefit us more than the things we disagree on.

We agree that
Christ is Lord.

A very good place to start.
Dave
}

bluewater2

01-25-2007, 04:42 AM

"Christ is Lord." Isn't it supposed to be Christ is THE Lord, or Christ is A Lord? Seems like odd sentence structure. Somewhere I missed the proof that you claim you had disclaiming evolution. I saw you, Watchman, steadfastly defending some bizarre circular reasoning that flew in the face of many more educated than yourself, but never saw it disproved. I don't see any need to prove evolution, but have much more evidence that it is true than you have that "Jesus is Lord", or that "Jesus is the son of God." Your belief in mysticism and the supernatural is your business. Have at it.

david_munson

01-25-2007, 03:25 PM

Try the first and second law of thermodynamics.

Life does not emerge out of decay.
All things are in a decaying state.

Poof !!!
One evolutionist spiralling towards the ground.
Science is wonderful because it supports scripture.(not that I need it too)Hebrews 1:11.

}

watchman_2

01-25-2007, 05:25 PM

bw2,

Of course you missed the proof that I provided you that evolution is, in fact, false. You have your head buried in your backside when anyone provides you such proof.

It probably never dawned on you that those whom support the theory of evolution do so out of reasons other than science. Many make their living in that field and, if they admit evolution is merely an unprovable theory and scientifically false, how will sustain themselves.

Of course, we have the leftists, whom hate God and the morals associated therewith, that will always support such whacky theories as evolution in effort to drive people away from the Truth.

Since you were asleep when class was held at the Evolution thread, I will provide the proof again.

Under Evolution, all life owes its existence to bacterium, the lowest form of life, which thru natural selection [little black bacterium only mating with other black bacterium only (bacterium don't mate)] we eventually get a hybrid bacterium. Hence, since bacterium exist as it has from the beginning, it is impossible for a species to become extinct. The species would always be repopulated from evolved lower species. The mere fact that species are extinct today is proof that evolution is bunk.

Let's have your acknowledgement that Evolution is bunk.

bluewater2

01-25-2007, 08:41 PM

I will acknowledge evolution is bunk when I feel that it is. Right now it seems to me that people a whole lot smarter than you and much more involved in it's study continue to explore evolutionary theory. Your "proof" is empty.

Munson, consider the law of matter that states all matter cannot be eliminated, only changed. The universe has always been therefor no need for a creator.

dodge

01-25-2007, 09:24 PM

"watchman_2" regularly declares his victory here on FactNet, though it is obvious that these victories are only in his deluded mind. In his "proofs" that evolutionary biology is "bunk" he often states that because there is still bacteria evolution cannot be true. He thinks that the bacteria that exists today is the same bacteria that existed 3.5 billion years ago. His statements that since this bacteria exists as it has from the beginning (a misunderstanding of science) then "it is impossible for a species to become extinct." Then he says "the mere fact that species are extinct today is proof that evolution is bunk." There is no logical consistancy in his argument. It makes no scientific sense, and demonstrates that "watchman_2" stretches scientific facts to fit his theories the same way as he, and other ShepChaps, twist Biblical passages to fit in with Arnold Murray's ideas. This perverted manipulation of science and the Bible is the only way that their ideas work.

bluewater2

01-25-2007, 09:48 PM

The things in the bible that one must accept to be a christian require a belief in mysticism and the supernatural and it doesn't take much to go from there to Watchman's narrow view of evolutionary science.

yaqakallah

01-26-2007, 01:21 AM

Awesome post there David!!!

david_munson

01-26-2007, 03:58 PM

"Munson, consider the law of matter that states all matter cannot be eliminated, only changed. The universe has always been therefor no need for a creator."
---
You can prove this how?
Your theory is your religion.You need more faith to believe such as you do than to except that there is an intelligent creator.

How do buildings evolve?
How do cars evolve?

They don't.
They are evidence that we ,as scripture says ,are made in the image of God,who by the way likes to make things as is evidenced in all of creation thus the term "creator".

Being made in His image ,His creativity is reflected in our creativeness.

Keep in mind that Darwin was in rebellion against his parents beliefs.
Or did you not know that?

}

skooter942000

01-26-2007, 06:59 PM

If evil-ution (evolution),
- is true.

You would see every stage present, (even now).
It would be an unending process.

- Where are the WALKING FISH,
- (And Man-apes)?

The wisdom of 'man' , is nothing!!!
- compared to the WISDOM of THE LORD!!!

- (And cartoons don't count).

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif


Pro 10:27 ¶ The fear of the LORD prolongeth days:
but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

Pro 10:28 The hope of the righteous [shall be] gladness:
but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.

Pro 10:29 The way of the LORD [is] strength to the upright:
but destruction [shall be] to the workers of iniquity.

Pro 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed:
but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

Pro 10:31 The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom:
but the froward tongue shall be cut out.

Pro 10:32 The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable:
but the mouth of the wicked [speaketh]frowardness. 


tahpukah/frowardness = perversity, perverse thing

I.E. a perversity or fraud

Don <*))><

skooter942000

01-26-2007, 07:24 PM

Is DARWINISM a CULT?

If so, (who here is an active member)?

Darwin to Self:

- Look an (Ape)
it has child like behavior.

Then poor health set in....
(and the rest is "his-story"), - not GOD'S.

- natural selection?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif
- (isn't this a Name Brand
found on store shelves) - for a SOUP?

watchman_2

01-26-2007, 07:47 PM

bluewater2 wrote,

I will acknowledge evolution is bunk when I feel that it is. Right now it seems to me that people a whole lot smarter than you and much more involved in it's study continue to explore evolutionary theory. Your "proof" is empty.

Same lazy argument that many church goers use. If the church heirarchy didn't agree, it can't be so.

Really, bw2, at least admit that you wouldn't know what a proof of anything entailed. You are not scholarly and are lazy as well.

watchman_2

01-26-2007, 08:09 PM

dodge,

LOL!

You are the one stating that religion is based upon mysticism. Yet, your theory for the existence of all life is that these primitive bacterium eventually were driven to become multi-celled life, which eventually, down the path of evolution, had to make decisions as to becoming plants or animals, whether to be male or female.

You see, you are such a hypocrite! You label our Bible as a fairy tale; whereas, assuming you are correct, we are left with a ridiculous synopsis for our existence as I have shown herein.

Our fairy tale makes a heck of a lot more sense than your fairy tale.

Please direct me to the Evolution Park so that I can take my daughter to see all of the genus changes. For evolution to be real, no extinction is possible and we could see if before our vary eyes. Proof positive that evolution is bunk!

dodge

01-26-2007, 09:15 PM

Watchman, there is no way that I’m going to get sucked into another endless and pointless debate about evolution versus creationism. It’s all been said, over and over again in the evolution threads here. If you want to, go back there and stroll down memory lane to revisit all your self-proclaimed victories over the atheistic left-wing evil evolutionists and bask in your glory days.

Perhaps we're both wrong, and that we were neither created by God nor evolved from single-celled organic structures. Perhaps it's much more interesting and complex than is our capacity to understand.

Evolution Park? Will the evolution exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History do?

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/amnh?q=evolution

What about EvoWiki, which will answer all the questions that you might have concerning evolution:

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/List_of_creationist_arguments

watchman_2

01-27-2007, 05:23 AM

Dodge,

LOL The last thing to do is rehash the evolution topic. Just trying to point out to you the ridiculous position you are outlining here.

Your conclusion that religion is mysticism leaves us with the only remaining possibility for life -- evolution. So, your preposterous position is a severe indictment against your credibility.

dodge

01-27-2007, 06:31 AM

Oh well, watchman. we disagree on a lot of things. But that's OK, diversity is a wonderful thing. You think that my views are preposterous. Fair enough. I think your ideas about "real Jews" being White Anglo-Saxons, about the Serpent and Eve having sex in the Garden of Eden, about evil Kenites hiding amongst Jews secretely plotting to create a New World Order, about a "first Earth Age" where we all existed in a struggle between God and Satan, and about a "Serpent Seed" that are the descendents of Cain and a woman from one of the "sixth day races" are the result of a warped interpretation of Genesis. I think that your skewed interpretation of Biblical passages is the result of your indoctrination into the mind-set of Arnold Murray; who has instilled in you and Shepherds Chapel students a twisted method of reading scripture, which wrestles and manipulates words until they fit into your Murrayite indoctrination.

I think that we both agree that we disagree with one another.

watchman_2

01-27-2007, 08:30 PM

dodge,

That is why I requested that you, at least, state the SC positions correctly. You have erred again with your post above.

The race of Noah was white as evidenced by the one known descending people -- the Jews. There are many whites that are not of Israel [12 tribes].

Kenites, by birth, are not necessarily evil as you like to portray. Yes, if they do as their fathers have done, they will be judged for their evil deeds.

Well, you are not even a Christian, so, any comment you have regarding what is or what is not in the scriptures is highly suspect. I think that your comments are misplaced at best. We have documented how we get our interpretation every time.

If you disagree, it cannot be because of lack of documentation. You may not like the highly respected Strong's Concordance, but that work supports our scriptural interpretation. So, it is inappropriate to conclude that we 'twist' scripture. The Bible was not written in English.

Just attempting to make you into a fair critic.

dodge

01-28-2007, 08:16 AM

Watchman, you say that the race of Noah was white, as "evidenced by the one known descending people -- the Jews." Are semitic peoples such as Jews, Palestinains, Syrains and Lebanese of the same racial group as Anglo-Saxans? The reason I mention this is that I know that SC students believe that the lost tribes of Israel migrated into Europe and their descendents were the people that were later called Anglo-Saxon.

According to genetic research using the male, Y chromosome, the worlds' Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinans, Syrians, and Lebanese. This suggests that they are all descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East about four thousand years ago.

There's an article in the New York Times called "Y Chromosome Bears Witness to Story of the Jewish Diaspora," by Nicholas Wade.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D02E0D71338F93AA3575 6C0A9669C8B63

It tells how this Y chromosome testing has traced the diaspora of Jewish populations from the dispersals that began in 586 B.C. to modern communities of Europe and the Middle East.

The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism.

How does this fit into your ideas about the ethnic composition of the Jews living in the Middle East four thousand years ago?

godchild

01-28-2007, 06:40 PM

quote:
Kenites, by birth, are not necessarily evil as you like to portray. Yes, if they do as their fathers have done, they will be judged for their evil deeds.-end

It is am/sc and his students, among other neo-nazi rascist groups, who bring up Kenites in the first place. Now they have the nerve to try and place that accusation on those who have totally argued against such a belief. Hypocrits! Liars to the core!

watchman_2

01-28-2007, 07:23 PM

dodge,

I know that the Bible is mysticism to you; but, if you check out the various lineages, you will see mention of many of the people you refer to having same genetic makeup.

Abraham is both the father of the 12 tribes of Israel but is also the father of the Arab people through Hagaar.

Undoubtedly, many throughout that region are white as well. So, I agree that there are common ancestoral links--the Bible states so.

It is clear from scripture that the bloodline from Adam to Christ was pure and that Christ, thru Mary, is of the tribes of Judah and Levi. Of the 12 tribes of Israel, only Judah has maintained its identity thru time.

Since we know that these common links and that the Jews are primarily white, we can be certain that the race of Adam to Christ was also white.

But, this specific bloodline has many splinter groups that have similar genetics as you pointed out.

watchman_2

01-28-2007, 07:29 PM

godchild,

As you have been informed many times, the Kenites have equal opportunity for salvation as anyone else. It is their decision as to whether to do good or follow the footsteps of their fathers that hated God.

It is you detractors that make the big deal about Kenites due to your Bible illiteracy.

For Christians, it is important to know that they exist, were responsible for the crucifixion of Christ, and that they are to be left alone and not persecuted/killed.

david_munson

01-28-2007, 08:57 PM

I was responcible for the crucifiction of Christ and so was every human alive.

He came to die in my place and in your place because nothing you or I could ever do would satisfy the Holyness of God.

The "kenites" had nothing to do with it.
It was the sin in each of us that made it neccessary for Him to take our place,He being without sin.
His pure and sinless body was offered up in our place and God saw it and was satisfied that it was enough to redeem us from the curse of death.

You and I killed Christ.
If you doubt that you're lost.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

}

godchild

01-28-2007, 09:17 PM

In tape #412, Demons, A. Murray states:
Their sons don't cast out devils - they love them . . . I'm saying it because its a fact. They love them. It works in their favor - works to their advantage. Why do they steep themselves in pornography? Why do they steep themselves in carnality? Why do you think their own Talmud is the filthiest piece of literature ever written because they're at home with it. They love it. Its their cup of tea. Its Satan's cup of tea.
------------------------------
Can anyone not see who am is talking about? Are scer's now saying satan himself can be saved?

godchild

01-28-2007, 09:32 PM

Scer's now want to deny what lies they have been spreading.

smyrna
Senior Member
Username: smyrna

Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 1:26 pm:
------------------------
Why don't you ask Watchman?

Where does it say God rested and then he created Adam Could i see a verse that clearly states this?
Genesis 2:2 Rested
Genesis 2: 7-8 describe Adam being formed, and placed in Eden.

The races created on the sixth day,lived outside Eden, and that is where Cain found his wife, and those peoples are also those he was afraid would kill him, for what reason we do not know for sure.

How can I not be a Kenite? Spiritually, I know in my heart I love God. Physically, of course I don't know everyone my forefathers begat.
However, as far back as my family tree has been witnessed by myself,they all were far from enemies of God, which is what Kenites are.
My grandparents and their parents and grandparents were very devout, religious Christians, and that's all I know.

What colour are the Kenites?

Because they have always intended to masquerade as Jews, by necessity they would have to be white.

Satan, who is behind it all, has a spirit of hatred that he uses as a tool, and it is he who is the author of racism, and no one else.

God is not a racist for creating those races separately. Those peoples are not racists for spending the better part of history keeping their own customs of not marrying into other races. With very few exceptions,this has been the case.

Realistically, much of racism was borne through mutual hatred for those who broke those cultural taboos, on both sides.

godchild

01-28-2007, 09:47 PM

abiyah (abiyah)
Intermediate Member
Username: abiyah

Post Number: 106
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.59.129.216
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 11:36 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**** BEAR !!!! CONTINUED FROM MY ABOVE POST TO YOU SIR !

JOHN 8:44 Christ speaking here in this verse 44 to the kenites who only "claim" to be of The Tribe of Judah, but they are LIARS !

" Ye ARE OF YOUR "father " THE DEVIL, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the begining, [ we see the first murderer was Cain.. who slew Abel, and we see in I John 3:12, that " CAIN WAS OF THE WICKED ONE "], and abode NOT in the truth, because there is NO truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it. " [ Did the Devil lie to Eve ? And can you tell me.. is the devil a liar ? ]

JOHN 8:45 Christ is speaking to you !!!!

" AND BECAUSE I TELL you THE TRUTH, ye BELIEVE ME NOT. " [ This I can not comprehend, why anyone would NOT beleive The very Livng Word of God.... ? I just do not get it ? ]

**** And AGAIN, they are identified by Christ !

MATTHEW 23:33
" YE SERPENTS, YE GENERATION [ this word "generation" if from the Greek word Gennema= meaning OFFSPRING ] OF VIPERS [ these vipers are poisonous snakes, their doctrines and their lies, Matthew 16:18 ], how can ye escape the damnation of hell ? [ These are the offspring of the serpent Genesis 3:15 ]

Revelation 3:9
" BEHOLD ! I will make them of THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, WHICH "SAY" THEY ARE Jews [ They "claim" to be of the Tribe of Judah]; AND "ARE NOT", BUT DO "LIE";........." [ See Revelation 2:9 ]

That ole serpent, the devil, that wicked one DOES have offspring/children. They are metephroically known as... and symbolically known as the "tares"... the basket of "naughty figs", they are the "evil fruit", they do NOT produce fruit because they are "corrupt trees", they are the "thorn", "thistles" .

AND LASTLY !!!
TIMOTHY 1:5
" If ANY of you LACK WISDOM, [ The wisdom that one needs to UNDERSTAND GOD's Word which is TRUE !] LET him "ASK OF GOD", that GIVETH to ALL men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it SHALL be given him. "

Abiyah

godchild

01-28-2007, 09:55 PM

angie0401
New member
Username: angie0401

Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 65.81.218.168
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 2:36 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
watchman,
I agree with you, the truth is more than a privilege - it's humbling to even get a glimpse of God's truth...

Every breath I breath is a privilege, every day God allows me to have on this earth to learn and improve is a privilege, every hug from my children and husband is a privilege, being allowed to study (& UNDERSTAND) God's word is the BEST privilege, but we know there are no "special" privileges dispensed by SC and Pastor Murray - all of this comes from God and I will happily count myself a member of His organization.

godchild

01-28-2007, 10:05 PM

watchman tells atheists and evolutionists they shouldn't be talking about Christianity. But look at what he said:

watchman_2 (watchman_2)
Intermediate Member
Username: watchman_2

Post Number: 158
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 4.232.207.249
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 2:38 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bear,

I know that you previously asked for some biographical information and I did not provide it. My personal biography is not relevant to God’s word. However, since you asked again, I will provide you some.

I am a 48 year old widower with a 6 year old daughter. I lost my wife to cancer when my daughter was 1. My wife never once complained while she was terminally ill, though her pain and discomfort were considerable. I was truly proud of her and I still miss her tremendously.

I am an engineer by trade. So, I deal in objective review of facts/figures/analysis almost everyday. Some say faith comes first, but not for me. The facts, logic, common sense, and analysis must be reviewed first.
----------------------
I think watchman should be ignored. He has placed "Faith" in fifth place.

godchild

01-28-2007, 10:16 PM

watchman_2
Advanced Member
Username: watchman_2

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 11:13 am:
------------
David,

Yes, when you believe in the true Christ, you are doing works. But, you rapture people do not believe in the true Christ -- you believe in the antichrist, who will come first to rapture you away. You will be giving suck to Satan's offspring [spiritually] when the true Christ returns.

In all likelihood, it is you rapture people who will not enter the Kingdom of God as set forth above in Matt. 7:21-23. Have a good trip!

david_munson

01-29-2007, 12:14 AM

"Some say faith comes first, but not for me. The facts, logic, common sense, and analysis must be reviewed first."
---
Many people approach things this way.Not just with God's word but many other things as well.

Concerning faith God's word says within it's pages,
"Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Empirical evidence may have it's place but not where the Word of god is concerned.

}

david_munson

01-29-2007, 12:21 AM

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

}

smyrna

01-29-2007, 11:22 AM

Where is Godchild's documentation that myself and Watchman have recently communicated with "John Cody" who was a poster here some time ago?

I don't know why it would even bother her whether we did or not,(and we did NOT) but since she brought up this allegation, she has yet to offer ANY evidence,and continues to dodge the question.

WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

She is lying, she knows she made it up, and the reason why I am hammering her with this question is to show all who read here she is a nutcase, drunk, or druggie, who has no problem making things up out of thin air.

smyrna

01-29-2007, 11:34 AM

Godchild wrote: "Can anyone not see who am is talking about? Are scer's now saying satan himself can be saved?"

Why would Godchild worry about satan at all? She agreed in a recent discussion at www.cultbusters.com.au (http://www.cultbusters.com.au) (Let's Talk About Satan thread)that satan is merely a "concept" that underwent development" and really does not exist outside Scripture.

Don't listen to her calling me a liar about this, just go there yourself. You don't need to sign on, anyone can read the posts there.

Oh, and just to prove her wrong about the satan comment:

The Bible states that satan (the being Godchild agreed does not exist)is condemned to PERDITION (I Thess. 2:1-4

godchild

01-29-2007, 07:07 PM

No, I didn't make anything up. John Cody has gone by numerous names. Whether you recognise this is not important. You are like-minded.

I don't "worry" about satan, because I trust the Lord implicitly.

skooter942000

01-29-2007, 08:20 PM

- LAUGHABLE

- (yet also sad)

gc is misinterpreting Pastor Murray's words.
(IF these are his words)

- i don't TRUST HER.

- ACCUSERS

satan is """not""" going to find salvation.
- Pastor never implies this,,,,,

A MISTAKE?
- (Or LIE)?

- GOD KNOWS.
& (...It's in the BOOK)

- A SLANDERER is (Just that)!!!

- Who here plays this GAME?

...Anyone?
.....Anyone?

The LORD REBUKE YOU satan,
- (In YESHUA'S Holy name)

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending
with the devil he disputed about the body of
Moses, durst not bring against him a railing
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things
which they know not: but what they know naturally,
as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone
in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the
error of Balaam for reward, and perished in
the gainsaying of Core.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

Don <*))><

bluewater2

01-29-2007, 08:24 PM

The topic of this thread is "The real threat to Christianity." I have changed my idea and I now think it is the boring, cryptic and rediculous scripture posting by those that think they are doing a great service by doing so. Can't you people, all christian bible quoters, think for yourselves and use your own words to make a point? You guys bore the hell out of me.

skooter942000

01-29-2007, 08:28 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_assassination

Character assassination
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Character assassination is an intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation of a particular person, whether living or a historical personage, in such a way as to cause others to develop an extremely negative, unethical or unappealing perception of him or her.
By its nature, it involves deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person. For living individuals, this can cause the target to be rejected by his or her community, family, or members of his or her living or work environment. Such acts are typically very difficult to reverse or rectify, therefore the process is correctly likened to a literal assassination of a human life. The damage sustained can be life-long and more, or for historical personages, last for many centuries after their death.

In practice, character assassination usually consists of the spreading of rumors and deliberate misinformation on topics relating to one's morals, integrity, and reputation.

-----------8<--cut---------------


Exd 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter;
and the innocent and righteous slay thou not:
for I will not justify the wicked.

Exd 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift:
for the gift blindeth the wise,
and perverteth the words of the righteous.


(Message edited by skooter942000 on January 29, 2007)

skooter942000

01-29-2007, 08:32 PM

Psa 94:3 LORD, how long shall the wicked,
how long shall the wicked triumph?

Psa 94:4 [How long] shall they utter [and] speak hard things? [and] all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?

Psa 94:5 They break in pieces thy people, O LORD,
and afflict thine heritage.

Psa 94:6 They slay the widow and the stranger,
and murder the fatherless.

Psa 94:7 Yet they say, The LORD shall not see,
neither shall the God of Jacob regard [it].

Psa 94:8 Understand, ye brutish among the people:
and [ye] fools, when will ye be wise?

Psa 94:9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear?
he that formed the eye, shall he not see?

Psa 94:10 He that chastiseth the heathen,
shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge,
[shall not he know]?

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man,
that they [are] vanity.

Psa 94:12 Blessed [is] the man whom thou chastenest,
O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;

Psa 94:13 That thou mayest give him rest from the days
of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.

bluewater2

01-29-2007, 08:45 PM

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, now it all makes sense.

dodge

01-29-2007, 09:45 PM

BIBLE THUMPER -- anyone who aggressively pushes their religious beliefs upon those who do not share them. Anyone engaged in a public show of religiosity. Overzelous Christians who engages in haranguing or censuring others. An uber-Christian who quotes the Bible. One who attacks and defames others instead of using the Bible as a guide to proper living. These people tend to be depressingly ignorant of anything else except the Bible.

Bible Thumping is the cause of many major wars, genocides, and crimes against humanity during the last 20 centuries. The Middle Ages and the European colonization of Africa and the Americas were the glory days of the Bible Thumpers.

Bible Thumpers are right-wing Christian wackos who believe their life must be based on the Bible. The same goes for our government, it will be based on the Bible. A Bible Thumper is usually a homophobic, pro-life, redneck idiot. (See George W. Bush, John Ashcroft, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and right-wing nutjob).

A Bible Thumper is a fanatical religous zealot, often characterized by their constant references to the Bible and their intent on converting everyone within a hundred mile radius. They are essentially the same as Islamic fundamentalists, with the same religous zeal and fanaticism.

A Bible Thumper is a Christian male or female with a view of right and wrong that is completely out of wack. They believe every single thing in the Bible is law to be followed or you go to hell. A Bible Thumper can't watch South Park. It's against their religion.

A Bible Thumper is a Christian who shares their religious beliefs with another in hopes of converting them. A Bible Thumper is a person whose religious beliefs include strict adherence to the Bible. He/she is likely to deliver angry sermons to anyone who believes differently, even if that "difference" means belonging to a church that disagrees with his/her interpretation of Scriptures. Example: "Skooter's co-workers called him a Bible-thumper when they found out he posts Bible verses on an internat forum every day."

skooter942000

01-29-2007, 10:48 PM

Job 6:24 ¶ Teach me, and I will hold my tongue:
and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

Job 6:25 How forcible are right words!
but what doth your arguing reprove?

Job 6:26 Do ye imagine to reprove words,
and the speeches of one that is desperate,
[which are] as wind?

bluewater2

01-29-2007, 10:53 PM

"Job 6:26 Do ye imagine to reprove words,
and the speeches of one that is desperate,
[which are] as wind?" This is obviously directed at those who desparately parrot scripture as they lack any ability to independantly think. This lack of independant thinking will be the downfall of christianity, which is the topic of this thread.

skooter942000

01-29-2007, 11:40 PM

- hey Dodge,

Is attacking gc with those words really wise http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Trying to SULLY other peoples reputations
is not a GOOD-WORK!!!

FEW actually do this.

BTW/ my co-workers would never say that;0)
- Just so you know.

- That was a POOR EXAMPLE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Sowing SEEDS at work ,(is not always wise).

- Some are not here to CONVERT strays.

"CHRIST" doesn't BEG anyone for anything.
)_nor will i_(

This age is to remove the DREGS from the VAT.
- (So we can be happy)

- GOD'S WORDS (Are FINAL)& (ETERNAL).
- Like it or not.

The Scriptures are GOOD.
Doesn't matter to me that you don't like them.

- Others don't like what you post as well;)

- BY the BY:

This listing is for those who have problems
with CULTS.

Those who have been HURT by CULTS.
Or have had family members hurt by a cult.

- What has SC done to you? - (PERSONALLY)!!!

Just because you disagree,
(Or don't like Arnold MURRAY) ,
does not mean you should attack him
or us - Just be-"CAUSE".

You should be out enjoying your retirement.
You actually find JOY being here, accusing us?

- This is FULFILLING?
- (in your sight)?

That's - Kind of sad , -(really)

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif - "To Each His Own".

Anyone can have a difference of opinion,
and still be respectful while so doing.

- And yet...........

causing problems within a CHURCH or its members.
is a no/no

RE: - PROV 6

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Mat 18:21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not
unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

- Even a skeptic can understand these words.

- (Repentance is a GIFT)

CHRIST is the DOOR to SALVATION

No CHRIST
No SALVATION

Über Christian?

- Never heard that one before.
- (that exact Phrase)

Don <*))><

skooter942000

01-30-2007, 12:04 AM

RE: From Bluewater

This lack of independant thinking will be the
downfall of christianity, which is the topic
of this thread.

-----------------------------------------
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

- That's not quite TRUE!!!
- (is it)

The REAL threat to Christianity,
- Is the SUBJECT!!!

Not it's down-fall.

There shall not be a DOWNFALL!!!
- That's just your hopeful opinion.


Pro 26:10 The great [God] that formed all
[things] both rewardeth the fool,
and rewardeth transgressors.

Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit,
[so] a fool returneth to his folly.

Pro 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own
conceit? [there is] more hope of a fool than
of him.


- Ahhhh, "the wisdom of man".
- compared to the WISDOM of GOD.

That's what you get when a Atheist speaks of god.
- you get (Non-Sense) http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

A day will come, when you will see

BLUEWATER:
Now being you are an Atheist.

What harm has SC done to you?



Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit
drew near, he sent his servants to the
husbandmen, that they might receive the
fruits of it.

Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his
servants, and beat one, and killed another,
and stoned another.

Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more
than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them
his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son,
they said among themselves, This is the heir;
come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his
inheritance.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him]
out of the vineyard, and slew [him].

Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the
vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those
husbandmen?

Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably
destroy those wicked men, and will let out
[his] vineyard unto other husbandmen,
which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


AMEN & AMEN

[REPENTANCE is a GIFT]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Don <*))><

godchild

01-30-2007, 01:10 AM

scooter, All this defense of am and you don't even have his tapes. How would you know what he says on it? It is the blind leading the blind. How about his newsletters. Have you ever read them? You should. His public persona is not always like his private one. He's even more rude/hateful in private, or where he thinks only his followers will hear. If what he teaches is the truth, why do you all get so upset when the public shares it? Got something to hide? Can't take the exposure? Fear? Dread? Or could it be just the plain old fact that when brought into the light, it fizzles, dries up, and goes POOF!

bluewater2

01-30-2007, 01:19 AM

"BLUEWATER:
Now being you are an Atheist.

What harm has SC done to you?" I am not thinking of myself, but of others. I rarely put myself first. And I don't care about SC one way or the other except to say it is just another xtian sect that thinks it's got it right, and the others don't. And Arnie just seems like a weak little man when I view that silly video of him getting so freaked out. Seems silly to me. By the way, I have not and would not waste my time reading any of your stupid scripture. I just perk up when I see my name in your post.

david_munson

01-30-2007, 03:33 PM

Seems that Dodge is a bit confused.

If studying the bible makes you a non independant thinker then so does any book that you gain information from.

You did get your learning from books didn't you?

Yet reading of the Bible obscures ones ability to think on an independant level?

O-o-o-o-k.

Is that supposed to be logical thought?

}

watchman_2

01-30-2007, 07:01 PM

dodge,

You just cannot help yourself. LOL

You come to these threads supposedly for further understanding of this groups "mystical" beliefs. Instead, you take the occasion to forward your leftist and anti-god beliefs.

You wrote,

Bible Thumping is the cause of many major wars, genocides, and crimes against humanity during the last 20 centuries.

O.K. There is truth in that statement.

However, where is your objectivity?? It doesn't take any due diligence to know that many wars have been started by atheistic communists. Ever hear of the Cold War??

Oh, did you forget WWII?? We have the imperialist Japanese and the evolution-believing Germans to thank for that one.

BTW, right-wing Bible thumpers set up this government with freedom of speech and religion so that you left-wing socialists can live in peace among us and spout your socialist drivel without fear of persecution.

Of course, the same cannot be said of you left-wing socialists, whom insist that everyone conform to your ideology. Just look at your communist utopias like Cuba and the Soviet Union for proof.

dodge, you have a lot of nerve -- but no objectivity.

skooter942000

01-30-2007, 07:26 PM

Isa 23:1 ¶ The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of
Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there
is no house, no entering in: from the land of
Chittim it is revealed to them.

Isa 23:2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle;
thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass
over the sea, have replenished.

Isa 23:3 And by great waters the seed of
Sihor, the harvest of the river, [is] her
revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

Isa 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the
sea hath spoken, [even] the strength of the sea,
saying, I travail not, nor bring forth
children, neither do I nourish up young men,
[nor] bring up virgins.

Isa 23:5 As at the report concerning Egypt,
[so] shall they be sorely pained at the report
of Tyre.

Isa 23:6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl,
ye inhabitants of the isle.

Isa 23:7 [Is] this your joyous [city], whose
antiquity [is] of ancient days? her own feet
shall carry her afar off to sojourn.

Isa 23:8 ¶ Who hath taken this counsel against
Tyre, the crowning [city], whose merchants
[are] princes, whose traffickers [are] the
honourable of the earth?

Isa 23:9 The LORD of hosts hath purposed it,
to stain the pride of all glory, [and] to bring
into contempt all the honourable of the earth.

Isa 23:10 Pass through thy land as a river,
O daughter of Tarshish: [there is] no more strength.

Isa 23:11 He stretched out his hand over the
sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given
a commandment against the merchant [city],
to destroy the strong holds thereof.

Isa 23:12 And he said, Thou shalt no more
rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of
Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also
shalt thou have no rest.

Isa 23:13 Behold the land of the Chaldeans;
this people was not, [till] the Assyrian
founded it for them that dwell in the
wilderness: they set up the towers thereof,
they raised up the palaces thereof; [and] he
brought it to ruin.

Isa 23:14 Howl, ye ships of Tarshish:
for your strength is laid waste.



PLEASE STOP POSTING SCRIPTURAL PASSAGES. IF YOU JUST PUT THE LOCATION OF THE PASSAGES IT SHOULD BE ENOUGH. IF PEOPLE WANT TO READ THE PASSAGE THEY CAN LOOK IT UP. PLEASE.

(Message edited by admin on January 30, 2007)

abiyah

01-30-2007, 08:41 PM

Adminstration WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " PLEASE STOP POSTING SCRIPTURAL PASSAGES. IF YOU JUST PUT THE LOCATION OF THE PASSAGES IT SHOULD BE ENOUGH. IF PEOPLE WANT TO READ THE PASSAGE THEY CAN LOOK IT UP. PLEASE.

(Message edited by admin on January 30, 2007)"
*********************************************** **

WHAT ? Excuse me.... do we not have freedom of religion, as well as freedom of SPEECH here ANYMORE at FACTNET ? Since WHEN does this administration ask US to STOP posting 'Scriptural Passages'... since when ? I have been doing so since day one and have never been asked to STOP ? I'm very disappointed by this above edit, and in such a fine post. : ( I have been coming here since I do not know when and have never been asked to STOP posting Scripture... IF we are discussing God, and God's Word why can we not post Scripture, what HARM can it do ? We are here in peace and to SHARE TRUTH. IS that a bad thing ? Simply posting the location of the passage is sometimes NOT enough ? Some people are just to LAZY to go and look it up on there OWN, then the point we are trying to bring forth is NEVER MADE, and JUST because we post Scripture does not mean ALL will read it, that is there own choice. We do not FORCE ANYONE to hear " Thus Saith The LORD God". Not ever have we. Posting that which is WRITTEN is simply a courtsey, a kind-hearted jesture that we do for those that gather here under these SC Threads, and it does take W.O.R.K. to put them forth. Who cares what "we" have to say with regards to God's Word ... For indeed it is far better to post what God's Word actually has to say. It is Good. What is going here ? : ( This can NOT be a good thing that you have now, after ALL this time, have asked us to STOP ? And to think how much I praised FACTnet for allowing us to SPEAK FREELY The Word of God. I'm truly sadden. Please... let us continue to post a we have... we are not hurting any one.... most come here on their own and by their own choice, we do NOT force any one to READ The Scriptures which are quoted, we just SHARE TRUTH, and we do so in Peace.

Sincerely,

Abiyah 

(Message edited by Abiyah on January 30, 2007)

skooter942000

01-30-2007, 08:55 PM

Administrator:
- (A name please)

ARE GOD'S WORDS NOT MEANT FOR THIS LISTING.

Y/N

REFERENCES, YES. REPETATIVE SCRIPTURE POSTING, NO

I used to post LINKS
You said to stop posting repetitive links. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

THANK YOU FOR NOT POSTING REPETITIVE LINKS.

The Scriptures are not the SAME,
(Posted over and over).

THEY TAKE UP SPACE WHEN REFERENCES WILL DO.

Does GOD not have a right to SPEAK in this forum?

- Is this a Christian FORUM? (Y/N)

NO. ALL ARE WELCOME.

Don <*))><

(Message edited by admin on January 30, 2007)

terluvire

01-30-2007, 09:01 PM

Hi Don and Abiyah,

This is just my opinion, but I feel someone went to the Admin crying and complaining, and that is why the Admin posted what he/she posted.

I, for one, will not stop posting Scripture when we are discussing God's Word. God's Word means, says, more than man's word.

I am surprised that gc was happy about this. It does make one wonder. What are we to make of that? It's pretty telling.

Peace,
Ter

NO ONE COMPLAINED TO ME. ONE PIECE OF SCRIPTURE TO MAKE A POINT IS DIFFERENT THAN ENDLESS SCRIPTURE THAT THOSE THAT YOU ARE AIMING IT AT WOULD NOT READ. BE REASONABLE. BANDWIDTH MATTERS TO ME.

(Message edited by admin on January 30, 2007)

skooter942000

01-30-2007, 09:11 PM

"YAH'S WILL' - be DONE
- (in YESHUA'S NAME)

THE ROTTEN "FRUIT", (is plain to see).

anyone who desires not to see GOD'S WORDS,
- are not led of GOD. (Simple discernment)

Many who come here (to post) ,
- (Are not led of GOD).

....Then said all the trees unto the bramble,
- Come thou, [and] reign over us.

- (NEVER)!!!

Don <*))><

angie0401

01-30-2007, 09:29 PM

BANDWIDTH MATTERS TO ME.
With all due respect, admin, where was this concern when many of the SC critics were posting up to 10 consecutive posts - that often violated copyrights - rather than a link?

Where was the concern for bandwidth when some other posters have used Factnet to virtually have internet sex? I see those smut posts are still there, correct?

Where was the bandwidth concern when ultimate1/trsinheaven/etc cut and pasted the same lies over and over and over again - often across multiple threads here?

Just for clarification - are you "MrFactnet" or "Ghost"?

MRFACTNET AND GHOST ARE ONE IN THE SAME. I HAD THE SAME CONCERN THEN AS I DO NOW, ONLY IT IS NOT OFTEN THAT I HAVE THE TIME TO BE THIS INVOLVED. AND, FOR THE RECORD, I HAVE PLEADED WITH THOSE YOU MENTIONED FOR THE REASONS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED, BOTH DIRECTLY ON THE BOARD AND THROUGH THE USER MANAGER, I THINK YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT MECHANISM. AND, HONESTLY, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SC'ERS OR ANY OTHER BELIEF FOR THAT MATTER. HONEST. I AM OFF TO WORK NOW, I HAVE ENJOYED OUR LITTLE CHAT, Y'ALL.

(Message edited by admin on January 30, 2007)

godchild

01-31-2007, 12:16 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif See how scer's jumped to conclusions, wanting to blame me. I applaud factnet admin. I also want to thank them for putting a stop (by locking the posts) to scer's joining with others to attack a sweet Christian girl. Their lack of compassion and class is incredible. angie is constantly guilty of conniving against those she hates; getting people to email her so she can trash people. She is a pathetic gossip and troublemaker. Her friendship with gtp came back and bit her in the butt. lol! God is watching.

Now maybe mother theresa on steroids will listen when told factnet IS NOT A CHRISTIAN FORUM! Now you all can scurry back to wherever you came from.

Thank you Lord!

I hope that terlu keeps posting scripture; it shows they have absolutely no respect for authority, in this case the owners of factnet. All of you show arrogant attitudes. Today is a good day, because the Lord is in it!

skooter942000

01-31-2007, 12:30 AM

so this is not a Christian forum.

Makes sense.

now i see why certain TYPES hang out here.

- Attacking REAL CHRISTIANS.
(Ones that actually know CHRIST).

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

smyrna

01-31-2007, 04:10 AM

Godchild wrote: "No, I didn't make anything up. John Cody has gone by numerous names. Whether you recognise this is not important. You are like-minded."

WHERE is the evidence I communicated with John Cody? What name is he going under, and can you prove it is him?

And if I didn't know it was him, why would you accuse me? Why accuse me anyway? Who cares about this guy?

You are a nutcase,if all you have to do is go around falsely accusing people of the most benign things.

angie0401

01-31-2007, 05:11 AM

angie is constantly guilty of conniving against those she hates; getting people to email her so she can trash people. She is a pathetic gossip and troublemaker

Now Vivian, you know that isn't true. Don't you get tired of lying and accusing others constantly? I guess it's best that you vent all of your hate here, though, with people that aren't affected by it. Wouldn't want that kind of hate and venom to stay bottled up..

By the way - I didn't get anyone to "email me so I could trash people". Your "sweet Christian girl" did a fine job of that all by herself by engaging in internet sex and multiple usernames - which she used to have a conversation with herself (weird!).

Sweet dreams, Viv. Get some rest - you're getting all http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif again.

godchild

01-31-2007, 05:50 AM

I repeat. Angie is a lying, conniving gossip and troublemaker. This is just one example:

angie0401
Advanced Member
Username: angie0401

Post Number: 551
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 216.76.235.139
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 12:33 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IHS -
Need to talk to you off the board can you email me at:
formitch_gtp@yahoo.com ?

------------------------------
TRYING TO COLLECT GOSSIP FOR MITCH, WERE YOU? NOT ONLY HAVE YOU TRIED TO COLLECT INFO FOR GOSSIP AND TROUBLEMAKING AGAINST RACHEL, BUT ALSO AGAINST ME. YOU ARE A CONNIVING WITCH, BITTER AND IGNORANT.

No one trusts you, angie. Everytime you try your little conniving backstabbing, your emails get forwarded. terlu was involved with the "getting info to mitch" saga along with you. All that spying and spreading gossip sure doesn't keep your new friends from figuring you out in a very short time, does it? What goes around, comes around.

You should not rest. You should get on your knees and do some soul-searching, unless you consider yourself the innocent you try to portray. Don't concern yourself with my feelings. I am great, no thanks to the likes of you, but to the Lord, who does watch over me so lovingly.

godchild

01-31-2007, 05:57 AM

angie just added defamation of character to her list of "sticking her nose in where it doesn't belong".

You've used more than one name here yourself, miss hypocrit, and so has abiyah and watchman. I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

godchild

01-31-2007, 06:29 AM

Here is a good example of angie apologising for one of the rudest comments I have ever seen here then later befriending this man to get the scoop on what was happening at cultbusters (because she got banned) and he joined there:

angie0401
Intermediate Member
Username: angie0401

Post Number: 307
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 69.94.56.8
I didn't mean to imply anything inappropriate with your "kissing your daughter with that mouth". It was just a twist on the "you kiss your mama with that mouth". It was probably out of line given the context of what was being discussed and FOR THAT I apologize.
----------------------------------
She knew he was very defensive of this subject because someone insinuated cultbusters was a child-porn site (I wonder who that could have been?) because his daughter enjoyed visiting with Christian adults there; all very innocent. But angie just couldn't resist this dig at him.
Their friendship didn't last long, did it angie. I wonder why? Do ya think maybe he opened his eyes to your devious little games?
I'm going to sleep very well tonight. My conscience is clear, how about yours?

godchild

01-31-2007, 07:04 AM

This thread is the one you conspired with him to start, isn't it, angie.

angie0401
Intermediate Member
Username: angie0401

Post Number: 339
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.139.76.245
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 11:00 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gtp,
I'm starting a new thread like you suggested.
Thanks for the email.

Angie
----------------------
The Real Threat to Christianity is people like you. Does it make you feel good in some sick way?
I hope others look at the first post here.

godchild

01-31-2007, 07:12 AM

And remember when you and terlu (especially you, terlu is a follower) started that business that I was so terrible a man threatened to sue me if I didn't stop talking. That man was a good friend of a wanted sex offender. Let me share my emails between this man and me (so you'll get your head out of your butt):

site_ReligionNewsBlog: on
>
> comments: I have been using both the apologetics index and religion news
blog to find info that I have shared (with your name
> as the source). Someone has come on today at factnet and is saying Anton
Hein has a warrant in California as a sex offender in
> 1994. This can be found at factnet.org where anton has posted. Please
respond to me or to them. I need to know what this is about. Sincerely,
>
> quote: yes
>
> Name: Vivian Hadden
cont.

godchild

01-31-2007, 07:19 AM

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/faq2.html

I do not know what to say beyond what it posted there that might satisfy
you. I made a stupid mistake within the context of a terrible family
tragedy. I have been dealing with the consequences ever since. While I had
plenty of opportunity to move back to Holland before I was prosecuted or
jailed, I stayed in the US to face the charges and do the time. Once I
returned to Holland - because my younger sister died of complications from a
stillborn - the Dutch authorities, whom I had contacted myself, advised me
not to return as they believe that I was prosecuted maliciously.

Again, I made a stupid mistake. I do not blame anyone but myself for it.

That said my wife and I are in relationships of mutual accountability with a
number of fellow Christians. They all know about the situation. Note also
that my wife is a licensed mental health counselor and social worker who
works with abused women at Holland's largest women's shelter organization.

As for me being 'wanted,' the US authorities know exactly where I am -
because I told them so. Too, operating a 20.000+ pages web site isn't
exactly hiding... Were I to return to the US I would indeed be arrested.
Howeer, with the full permission of the Dutch Justice Department, I am not
planning to re-visit the US.

Again, I think I can understand your concerns, but I do not know what I
could say to address them. Should you have any direct questions, please
feel free to let me know, though. I may be able to answer them.

Regards,

Anton
--------------------
I did not accept his answer and told him so. He has never come back to face the charges. I have been in phone contact with a friend of the girl's family, who says the girl has had problems ever since she was 13 years old. I explained all of this but you, ANGIE, have used this man's threat to sue me for talking about it (more than once here) as if I am only trying to cause trouble. DO YOU PROTECT CHILD MOLESTORS, ANGIE?

godchild

01-31-2007, 07:22 AM

I am going to suggest to you one last time that you clean your own house, and keep your nose out of other people's business, angie.

YOUR CUTTING AND PASTING OF LARGE AMOUNTS OF DATA THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO OTHERS THROUGH THE POSTING OF A LINK IS REALLY UNNECESSARY. PLEASE POST LINKS ONLY TO THE PLACES WHERE YOUR INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND. THIS FREES UP BANDWIDTH AND GIVES THOSE WITH THE DESIRE TO READ IT TO DO SO AND MAKES IT EASY FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT TO AVOID IT. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE REPETITIVE POSTING OF SCRIPTURE.

(Message edited by admin on January 31, 2007)

abiyah

01-31-2007, 04:51 PM

Ms. Hadden:

Once again, please allow me to explain something to you. You know... many of us come here to THESE Shepherd's Chapel THREADS here at FACTnet Message Board to discuss The Truth's of God's Word, to make a STAND for His Truth against the traditions of men, and false doctrines which are widely taught in most Christian churches of today. And to bring Truth to those that would lie about God's Word and those that Study His Word. And well, personally, for me at least, there is no desire, none at all to read about your child molestor issues and blah, blah, blah, blah. Give it up. Why on earth would you bring that garbage, total, utter, disgusting, perverted trash here and not back where these posts were brought forth originally ? This topic really does not belong here. For I know there is a thread at FACTnet with regards to all this trash, that you so love to dig through. TAKE IT TO THAT THREAD for any one who desires may read... Please, in all seriousness. Your false accusations are really getting old... so give it up. You do so remind me of the pharisees and sadducees during Christ's time, who often tried to drudge up many accusations against Immanuel, Jesus Christ The Lord, and you do the same to His servants here under these Shepherd's Chapel Threads, its not good for you to do such things when you claim to be a follower of Christ, and do contrary to that which He has Taught you, all that He Taught you is good, but this that you do during theses late hours in the night are not good. 

Matthew 7:16
" Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of THORNS, or figs of THISTLES ? "

Matthew 7:17
" Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; BUT A CORRUPT TREE bringeth forth EVIL FRUIT. "

Matthew 7:18
" A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT. "

Matthew 7:19 * And here is a Truth ! Take heed
" EVERY TREE THAT BRINGETH FORTH NOT GOOD FRUIT IS HEWN DOWN, AND CAST INTO THE FIRE. [Hebrews 12:29] "

Please... go your way, and allow us to be about God's Truth, His Word, which is ALL TRUE. And well... you know Vivian ? You really do not belong here, you just stir up strife and cause trouble. Please, let this go, and you also go with it, and leave Angie and Terluvire alone Vivian, for they have done nothing to you, but must always try and fend you off as you often verbally persecute them, lie, and do accuse them for this, that, and the other. You are like a disobedient child, causing trouble all the time amongst other children which are kind, well mannered, and well behaved. Please... go your WAY, and allow us to be about God's Truth, His Word, which is ALL TRUE, and after you go from us take a lesson and seek peace with people, as opposed to always causing trouble. STOP now, enough.

Abiyah

smyrna

01-31-2007, 05:56 PM

Godchild wrote, (before being admonishd by admin in the post above):

"I am going to suggest to you one last time that you clean your own house, and keep your nose out of other people's business, Angie."

Well well. Perhpas Godchild ought to help clean up CB,(and her own house) where they have doubted the existance of Satan,. Maybe Godchild should spend some more time studying, so she won't be doubting things like the Virgin Birth.

And just maybe, she will clean her own house enough where she won't be sticking her nose in mine and Watchman's business, by falsely accusing us of communicating with John Cody.

She still has not offered any evidence to support that charge, only some drivel about him going under different names, even going so far as falsely accusing someone else of being John Cody! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

abiyah

01-31-2007, 06:19 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifGood Day to you Smyrna & Angie !

You know, Vivian seemingly likes to be a real chatty cathy late at night here at FACTnet, I noticed how that she goes on rampage posts late, late, late at night here under our Shepherd's Chapel Threads. Hmmmmm.... you'd think she would be exhausted by days end, but instead she becomes all worked up while we are all sleeping peacefully. LOL ! LOL ! Its really sad, but as I said yesterday ... I'm pretty sure I get it now, all I can say is that, indeed we did try to help Vivian.

Agape,

Abiyah

godchild

01-31-2007, 06:20 PM

Thank you, admin. I will take your advice seriously, and not ignore it as abi does.

abi was a willing part of angie's tactics. Note where angie put her accusations of me. Not on these threads. And terlu and abi zoomed right over there to put in their agreement, of which they didn't take the time to find out for themselves the truth of. scer's continue to call me a liar. I am showing they are the liars. They are part of their own little gossip mill. Gossip does not please the Lord, abi.

Cultbusters isn't "my house". I will continue to answer to smyrna's lies also. Again people can go to the threads where the virgin birth was discussed and see that smyrna is lying. I won't repost it here.

All the accusations by angie about what name(s) people use here are by the same method I used to see a lady has the same ip as trentwoodard (jcp) used. Will you then say her accusations are false? Time will tell.

abi, Don't tell me where to go. Why are you still at a forum (preaching) that was not created for "Christians"?
And why didn't you tell kim f. that you believe not only Eve but Adam had a (homosexual) relationship with satan? (On the "Serpent Seed 101 for KF".) Does anyone agree with abi that adam covered his private parts, proving he too was guilty of having sex with satan?

abiyah

01-31-2007, 06:48 PM

Vivian,

I don't know for sure, and well this is just some neighborly advise but you may want to think about getting some help. I feel bad for you. And there you go again... you are not making very much sense at all... talking foolishness, gibbersh. Perhaps you were up too late last night, what was it like, two, three AM in the morning, that is really late. You should try and take a break from this, a nap maybe ? Please... go and relax, take a nap if you need, and try to get some rest from here, you seem as though you really, really need it Ms. Hadden. : (

Abiyah

angie0401

01-31-2007, 06:48 PM

Vivian,
I see you did (NOT) rest well, after all, did you? Maybe if you got some more rest and stopped being so obsessed with us and Factnet, you would feel better.

All the accusations by angie about what name(s) people use here are by the same method I used to see a lady has the same ip as trentwoodard (jcp) used

Not exactly - your "sweet little Christian girl" admitted to having 2 or 3 different usernames. She actually had a conversation WITH HERSELF using the 2 usernames that she admitted to having. In addition, one of the ip addresses used by her - which was a static ip address for a business where she was employed - was also used by someone with another username that she first claimed not to know, then said she hadn't seen him in years, then that she asked for his help. In addition, even though it was before my time here, I don't remember trentwoodard posting to himself with different user names and acting as if he were having a conversation with someone else. But like I said, that was before my time so I am not positive if he did that or not.

Try to get some rest and relaxation, Viv. You're sounding quite frazzled again.

rachelengland

01-31-2007, 07:06 PM

Angie and I apologized for that... I was not being truthful, I was embarrased by my actions. I used to be a sweet christian girl-but just got fed up with it all, I understand God's forgiveness and the admins here very neat guy!-I am not the only one who has done things like that here and i could name a few people who have been guilty.. Thankfully for me I have some great friends here who practically laughed their ••••• off at me, they were wondering why I was so concerned well I was concerned, it's my nature. I should not have been playing around...pure and simple no excuses.

skooter942000

01-31-2007, 07:12 PM

- talk about wasting BANDWIDTH.

- gc reposts ,reposts ,reposts "past" messages. (Over and over again)

Let the Spiritually DEAD , preach to the Spiritually DEAD.

The Blind cannot lead the Blind.

- Not wasting my seeds. (with these types)

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

angie0401

01-31-2007, 07:49 PM

Angie and I apologized for that... I was not being truthful, I was embarrased by my actions.

Sorry, Rachel, I didn't see where you apologized for being jimito as well as warr. My mistake.

Anyway, I was just answering Vivian's accusations again and didn't desire to bring your name into it - that's why I didn't specifically name you.

Glad you're feeling better again. You have some extreme highs and lows, it seems.

godchild

01-31-2007, 08:15 PM

You are so dense, Linda. You don't know about the difference in time between New York and Oregon. It's 11:15 a.m. here. Ding-ding-ding!

bluewater2

01-31-2007, 08:18 PM

Angie, you seem like kind of a jerk. No offense intended.

angie0401

01-31-2007, 09:44 PM

Angie, you seem like kind of a jerk. No offense intended.

No offense taken. What we seem on factnet is not always a true picture of us, as I'm sure you are aware.

yaqakallah

01-31-2007, 10:05 PM

Hey Angie,

I like your style girlfriend! Spoken like a woman of God! Your post made me smile http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

angie0401

01-31-2007, 10:16 PM

Thanks, Kim.
I know I've made mistakes and I've made enemies - even though often the two things are not related. Every day I strive to do better and please my Father more, but I know many, many times I fail. Just gotta get up, wipe off the dirt and start over.

Besides, I realize that those who know me in "real" life are better suited to judge my true character than those who only read posts made on an internet forum and one shouldn't get too offended when people simply put forth their opinion of you (but it's not always easy!). http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

bluewater2

01-31-2007, 10:27 PM

I just thought that here you have Rachel, who has obviously been laid a bit bare lately, who has apologized all over the place, and you take the opportunity to rub salt in the wound with your rehashing of the multiple names and your pointing out the highs and lows.

So unnecessary.

This is not about SC'ers, because I could care less about their beliefs, really. All forms of christianity suck in my viewpoint. I just saw that as a weakness in your character as a person. It seems like if you could have just had the strength of character to say something in response to Rachel like, "No problem. None of us are perfect", it would have been a much more balanced response without provoking and pouring salt into an old wound.

Just an observation.

angie0401

01-31-2007, 10:49 PM

I appreciate your observation, blue, but I disagree. Rachel, in my opinion, is a player. When she or one of her friends get backed against the wall with all of their lies and their behavior, she cries foul and tugs at people's heart strings. Faking something as serious as suicide is inexcusable.
I feel the same way about women who cry rape when there was no rape - you do those who really may truly need help an injustice because people are less inclined to believe them because of those who have lied or misrepresented the truth. I've said as much privately to Rachel, so I'm sure she was not blindsided.

By the way - I intentionally did not identify rachel as the one using the multiple user names so as to not draw more attention to her. Apparently that was not satisfactory.

I agree that I have weaknesses, as I'm sure we all do, and I work to improve them. I will take your observation into consideration and examine myself and my motives a little closer next time.

Thanks.

abiyah

01-31-2007, 10:51 PM

Bluewater:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " All forms of christianity suck in my viewpoint. " END QUOTE
*********************************************** **}

Real nice..., real, real, nice. Nothing new for your character Blue, as I do remember speaking to you in times past under another thread here at FACTnet... Oh yea.... where you, Bluewater, were indeed quoting scriptures from your "girlfriends" Jewish book, reading through them to show us how we were in err with regard to The Messiah. And Ohhh my, anyone want to talk about a blind man leading ?????? Not good. And I'm sure she would have loved to have known that you were using her sacred books to do that, and while all the while you do not even believe in her God. Hmmmmm......

Nnnnnnnn-Eeeeeeee-Whoooooo with regard to your above comment, you indeed are simply a mouse click away... so then please... click your way out, and now off you go. BYE ! " )

P.S. Oh yes.... one more thing, just as you care not for what we have to say, we also could care a less for what you have to say, NOT INTERESTED. Sorry dude..... LOL !

Abiyah " )

abiyah

01-31-2007, 11:00 PM

godchild

01-31-2007, 11:05 PM

If anyone says they are even thinking about suicide, it is a cry for help. It is so evident angie's apologies mean nothing, and she continues to excuse her bad behavior, even after apologising for it.

I just love when linda shows her true colors here. What happened to the "mother theresa on steroids" persona? The real linda is more interesting. At least she dropped calling people "thee" or "ye". http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

bluewater2

01-31-2007, 11:09 PM

I don't remember saying that I don't care for what you say, but ok. My girlfriend posts here as well and knows everything that I have to say about the Jewish Bible and the belief that Christians rewrote it to bolster their claims for Jesus' messiahship. But that is another topic.

BTW, I think that Islam sucks as much as christianity does, so it is not just about xtianity. It is about any religion that claims to know the only way, the true way, that places itself above others.

I also understand that the bible can be used to justify just about any position that someone cares to take which is obvious.

I think that the Prophet by Khalil Gibran blows the christian bible out of the water. It speaks to more people.

Again, abiyah, I never said I do not care what you have to say, it is just that not often to you say anything that I care to respond to.

No offense intended. And I apologize if I have offended you in any way.

angie0401

01-31-2007, 11:11 PM

If anyone says they are even thinking about suicide, it is a cry for help.
No, actually it's a cry for attention. Most people that are truly contemplating suicide do not come on an internet forum and threaten it. It's always amazing that she feels better once the conversation has been diverted from whatever the issue at hand was.

Who said that abiyah's name is Linda? I told you that you needed to get some rest, you're just talking crazy (again).

abiyah

01-31-2007, 11:46 PM

Bluewater WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " No offense intended. And I apologize if I have offended you in any way. " END QUOTE
*********************************************** **

WOW..... do you honestly believe that your words could offend me ? Not so, indeed no offence taken at all. And I speak truthfully. And please know, that I do understand that you have every right to think, and feel they way that you do with regard to any religion. For certainly that is your right, and I respect that right. Though I will say this, and indeed I say it with respect to you, and that is I find your attitude to be very disrespectful, in especially some of the things that have come from off your tongue, to your finger tips, to this message board, also your character is very immature. I want to say to you "grow up", but perhaps this is a difficult thing for you to do. But hey.... oh well that is you, and the choices that you make and the words which you speak, you do so at your own free will. And if I may remind you.... you are just a mouse click away, and you no longer have to stay. " ) LOL !

Abiyah

abiyah

01-31-2007, 11:58 PM

Angie WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " Who said that Abiyah's name is Linda? I told you that you needed to get some rest, you're just talking crazy (again). " END
*********************************************** **

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Ooohhh my ! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif My name is certainly NOT Linda, at least that's not what my Mom named me.... LOL ! However, 'Linda' is a nice name... but its not mine. Cute though ! " )

Hey... I have an idea.... Remember that song by Whitney Houston [ = poor thang ], entitled ' My name is NOT Suzanne'.... LETS SING TOGETHER. LOL !

" My name is NOT ______ Hey we could insert
" LINDA" ... so watch what you say ! " LOL ! LOL ! LOL ! LOL ! LOL ! LOL ! LOL !

Ahhhhh... that was fun ! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifLOL !

Abiyah

bluewater2

02-01-2007, 12:00 AM

I am having fun, so why would I leave? I am curious, what comments have I made that lead you to believe that I am immature, abiyah? I would love to learn from your wisdom.

abiyah

02-01-2007, 12:07 AM

Bluewater WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " I would love to learn from your wisdom. " END QUOTE
*********************************************** **

Proverbs 1:7
" The fear [ = meaning REVERENCE ] of The LORD is the beginning of knowledge; but fools despise wisdom and instruction. "

bluewater2

02-01-2007, 12:55 AM

Please explain. I love wisdom and instruction. So, again, what are the comments that I made that lead you do say I am being immature? Thank you in advance.

bluewater2

02-01-2007, 06:18 PM

I await your wisdom, abiyah. Please direct me to the immature statement that I made so I can correct myself.

skooter942000

02-01-2007, 08:29 PM

From bluewater2

"The Book" is an old book of fables used to transmit some universal truths and superstition. "The Book" has been revised and edited so many times that even the Jews do not recognize what Xtians call the New Testament. And the Old Testament is nothing but a warped and edited Tanakh. Jesus was no more special than you or I unless you believe in mysticism and superstition. Science is slowly removing the blinders that much of religion relies on people wearing in order to decieve.

`Fin
----------------------

Now add in those verses Abiyah shared to you.

=---> See? <--=

Still haven't answered my Question.

If EVOLUTION is TRUE or JUST,
where are all the walking fish or
man-apes??? - (TODAY)

If this was TRUE

All the stages should still be present even today...

- i don't see them?

- (do you)? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

- Ahhhh , the wisdom of \_'m.a.n.'_/

(a terrible JOKE), in more ways than one

- I luv Lucy...
Hey LUCY i'm H.O.M.O -erectis
Hey LUCY i'm H.O.M.O -sapiens

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,224363,00.html?sPage=fnc.science/evolution (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C224363%2C00.html?sPage=fnc.science/evolution)

bluewater2

02-01-2007, 08:43 PM

Are you taking over for abiyah in our conversation? I was kind of hoping that abiyah would continue by supporting her statements. I am a patient man.

abiyah

02-01-2007, 08:53 PM

Skooter WROTE;
*********************************************** *
QUOTE: " If this was TRUE

All the stages should still be present even today... "
*********************************************** **

Indeed we should still see this process today.... it amazes me what people will believe what a 'man' says is so, when it is not so. Evolution is simply a theory, not a fact. For certainly we still see the pollywog evolve into a FROGGY, and we STILL see the caterpillar evolve into a BUTTERFLY. Hmmmm... but we do not EVER see the ape evolve into a man. The DNA of an ape, does not align with the DNA of mankind. Sorry ! " ) And a skull of an ape is just that... a skull of an ape.

Abiyah

bluewater2

02-01-2007, 09:38 PM

I await your wisdom, abiyah. Please direct me to the immature statement that I made so I can correct myself.

dodge

02-01-2007, 09:48 PM

Hey, scooter...you must be taking classes in anti-evolution from Watchman; because you make about as much sense as he does. "Walking fish and man-apes," what an ignorant pack of Bible thumpers you are. LOL!!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

skooter942000

02-01-2007, 10:28 PM

LOL (http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif)

Trying to hurt my feelings Dodge?

- Good luck with that.

"we win" ,
-(we have eternal life)
and what do you have?

- besides time to waste.

http://www.brainlock.org/fun/sparetime.htm


Fun Things To Do In Your Spare Time

(1)Use your Mastercard to pay your Visa and vice-versa.

(2)When someone says "have a nice day," tell them you have other plans.

(3)Make a list of things to do that you have already done.

(4)Polish your car with earwax.

(5)Read the dictionary upside down and look for secret messages.

(6)Write a short story using alphabet soup.

.....ETC

dodge

02-01-2007, 10:55 PM

Scooter, do you believe that living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time? Or, have biological organisms evolved from simpler to more complex forms through time? And, what do you base your belief on?

abiyah

02-01-2007, 11:15 PM

DODGE WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " Scooter, do you believe that living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time? Or, have biological organisms evolved from simpler to more complex forms through time? And, what do you base your belief on? " END QUOTE
*********************************************** **

LOL ! LOL ! You can NOT be serious Dodge... IF apes evolved into mankind....... then why do they no longer do such a thing... it just STOPPED huh ? LOL ! And WHY have the apes STOPPED evolving into human beings... odd ? LOL ! An ape is just that.. an ape. LOL ! You have been watching far too much Discovery Channel. LOL !

Abiyah " )