PASSOVER or Easter [Archive]

bear

02-26-2007, 01:12 AM

Christ celebrated Passover, for he was Jewish and observed all of the festivals. The question is what did Paul and those in the Gentile world celebrate?

What do you mean by easter? The secular holiday with cute bunnies and fat producing goodieshttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Or do you mean the resurrection of Chrsit which is to be celebrated everyday.

There are denominations which choose to have a special observance once a year to celebrate the resurrection.

I celebrate Easter.

The passover is fun to ceelebrate, if it is done correctly.

However...

If you are coming from the position that one must celebrate this festival, then all of the festivals on the Jewish calendar should be observed. All had the place of importance.

watchman_2

02-26-2007, 06:43 AM

bear,

How do you square Acts 12:4 with the Greek for 'Easter'?

abiyah

02-26-2007, 07:02 PM

PASSOVER ! For Jesus Christ BECAME our Passover, for He IS The Lamb of God...perfect, without spot or blemish.

I Corinthians 5:7
" Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. FOR EVEN 'CHRIST OUR PASSOVER' is sacrificed for us;"

I Corinthians 5:8
" THERFORE 'LET US KEEP THE FEAST', not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and Truth. "

It is Written that we are to KEEP The Passover feast. And you will find and learn of The very first Passover in Exodus Chapter 12, which was a foreshadow of things to come.... that being Christ, The Messiah. For it is written " Lo I come in the volume of The Book " [ Hebrew 10:4-10 & Hosea 6:6 ] Christ was and IS The Lamb of God; He is The Bread of Life, His blood cleanses us from our sins. HE BECAME OUR PASSOVER, and no, no, NOT our easter. He paid the price for our sins so that the death angel, the destroyer, satan would have to 'passover' us [ Exodus 12:13 ].

We 'keep' The Passover IN partaking of
His Holy Communion

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifThe Lamb = Symbolic of Jesus Christ. [ Exodus 12:3-5 & John 1:29 & John 1:36 ]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifThe Unleavened Bread = Symbolic of The Body of Christ. [ Exodus 12:8 & Matthew 26:26 ]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifThe Blood = The wine being symbolic of the precious blood of The Lamb slain for our sins.
[ Exodus 12:13 & Matthew 26:27-28 ] 

Exodus 12:14
" And this day SHALL be unto you for a memorial; and ye SHALL KEEP IT a feast unto The LORD throughout your generations; ye SHALL KEEP IT a feast by an ordinance FOR EVER. " 

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifCHRIST IS OUR PASSOVER 


Exodus 12:26 - 27
" And it shall come to pass, when YOUR CHILDREN shall say unto you, WHAT MEAN YE BY THIS SERVICE ? That ye shall say, IT IS THE SACRIFICE OF THE LORD'S PASSOVER, who passed over the houses [the houses now being symbolic of our own bodies in which our souls dwell] of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. AND THE PEOPLE BOWED THE HEAD AND WORSHIPPED. "

abiyah

02-26-2007, 07:36 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifHey There ALL !

We see the word 'easter' written only ONE time in The Word of God, located in Acts 12:4, yet the king James translators took the word "Pascha " as it appeared in the Greek manuscripts and mistranslated it as 'easter'; the word easter in that fourth verse in Acts chapter twelve is " Pascha ", which is the Greek spelling of the Aramaic word of "Passover", which comes from the Hebrew word " Pasach ".

Easter comes from the heathen/pagan festival of "Ishtar", which is where we get the english word for "easter" from. Easter is english for the greek word 'Ishtar', and is Ashtoreth in the Hebrew. Ishtar/Easter was known as the heathen goddess of fertility, and it became a ritual for those that worshipped her, to go out in the early spring and take part in sexual orgies, and they would roll eggs, symbolic of fertility in the forest, which was symbolic of their reproducing, such as 'quick like a bunny'. And it is here in which today they get their "easter bunny" and their baskets filled with "easter eggs" from. These things have NOTHING to do with The LORD'S Passover. Easter has become one of the many traditions of men, and it is written that the traditions of men make God's Word to none effect, for we are commanded and instructed by The Word of The LORD to KEEP The Passover. To try to tie 'easter' to Christ and Passover is a great err.

And now, that some of The Scriptures regarding The Passover have been brought forth, and you yourself can easily document how that the word 'easter' was a mistranslation by the king James writers/translators there in Act 12:4... we ALL a Christians must decide within our own hearts/minds what feast we should keep... The Passover or easter ? If you choose The Passover, then you indeed will serve God, and those that keep The LORD's Commandment are pleasing to Him, although if you decide to celebrate easter.... then you will serve the traditions of man, and you'll be pleasing to man, but NOT to God. : ( The choice is yours. " )

Abiyah

abiyah

02-26-2007, 07:48 PM

Posted under The Christianity/Bible Topic under the thread entitled Passover ? or easter ? which do Christians keep ?
abiyah (abiyah)
Intermediate Member
Username: abiyah

Post Number: 322
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.59.129.216


" QUOTE
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:33 am:

Good Morning ALL !

You know ?.. .. I was thinking about how just before easter sunday, I see so many signs in front of the numerous churches in my area; and they read as such..........
"COME & WORSHIP EASTER SUNDAY SUNRISE SERVICE "

And it reminds me of what The LORD shewed unto the prophet Ezekiel, and even how they did this sunrise service, and how Josiah destroyed it all in II Kings 23:5-11 as they did such even on The Passover [II Kings 23:9]. Look at what The LORD showed Ezekiel regarding this... Have you seen this ?

Ezekiel 8:15
" Then said He unto me, HAST thou SEEN THIS ?, O son of man ? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt SEE GREATER ABOMINATIONS than these.

Ezekiel 8:16
" And He brought me into the inner court of the LORD's House, and, behold, at the door of The Temple of The LORD, between the porch and The Altar, were about five and twenty men, with their BACKS TOWARD The Temple of The LORD, AND THEIR FACES TOWARD THE EAST [ as the sun rises in the east ]; and they WORSHIPPED THE SUN TOWARD THE EAST. "

We see that God's Word calls this an ABOMINATION, sun rise service, worshipping the sun, these here were sun worshippers havng their backs towards God's Alter, their backs towards God's Word, their backs towards His Truth. Easter SUNRISE services are an abomination to God; to stand out there and gather the congregation to watch the sun.

Ezekiel 8:17
" Then He said unto me, HAST thou SEEN THIS ?,
O son of man? Is it a light thing to The House of Judah that they commit the ABOMINATIONS WHICH THEY COMMIT here? [ A light thing ? "It's no big deal" so to speak, for today, sadly many go do this sunrise service in ignorance.] for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. " [ they put the branch to their nose...,, in that they snuff at God ]

This was NOT a "light thing" to The LORD, it's serious, sunrise services and easter are ABOMINATIONS to our Heavenly Father, ..... CHRIST BECAME OUR PASSOVER as it IS written in I Corinthians 5:6-7. " END QUOTE

bear

02-26-2007, 09:48 PM

Hi watchman,

When I said that I celebrate easter, I meant that I celebrate the resurrection, not the holiday that is known as easter.

skooter942000

02-26-2007, 11:06 PM

CHRIST is our REST
HE is the PASSOVER LAMB

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven,
that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast,
not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of
malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened
[bread] of sincerity and truth.

- CHRIST is not our easter.

Easter Morning Sun worshipers.

- Not a WISE CHOICE.

Easter was a COPYIST ERROR.

Used ONE time.

[GROVE WORSHIP]
Rolling Eggs of Fertility.
Sexual Orgies (Quick like a BUNNY).

Tammuz/Astarte

Eze 8:12 Then said he unto me, Son of man,
hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of
Israel do in the dark, every man in the
chambers of his imagery? for they say,
The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath
forsaken the earth.

Eze 8:13 ¶ He said also unto me, Turn thee
yet again, [and] thou shalt see greater
abominations that they do.

Eze 8:14 Then he brought me to the door of
the gate of the LORD'S house which [was] toward
the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping
for Tammuz.

Eze 8:15 ¶ Then said he unto me, Hast thou
seen [this], O son of man? turn thee yet again,
[and] thou shalt see greater abominations than
these.

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/37-0012.htm

Webster's New World College Dictionary:
"Astarte ... a Semitic goddess of fertility
and sexual love, worshiped by the Phoenicians
and others: see also ASHTORETH, ISHTAR."
"Ashtoreth ... the ancient Phoenician and Syrian
goddess of love and fertility: identified with ASTARTE."

"Ishtar ...
see ASHTORETH ... the goddess of love, fertility, and war."

Question,

What do colored Eggs (Or Bunny Rabbits),
- have to do with the Crucifixion of CHRIST?

Learn the mistake- (Of the SCRIBES),
- And Please THE LORD.

Act 12:4 And 3739 2532 when he had apprehended
4084 him, he put 5087 [him] in 1519 prison 5438, and delivered 3860 [him] to four 5064 quaternions 5069 of soldiers 4757 to keep 5442 him 846; intending 1014 after 3326 Easter 3957 to bring 321 0 him 846 forth 321 to the people 2992.

3957. pascha pas'-khah of Chaldee origin (compare 6453); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):--Easter, Passover.

We are here to PLEASE THE LORD,
- not make HIM unhappy.

TRIX are for KIDS.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif & Not GOD'S kids.

smyrna

02-26-2007, 11:54 PM

Interesting that the detractors are ignoring this discussion.

watchman_2

02-27-2007, 01:55 AM

Hi bear,

The crucifixion day was the 15th day of the new year. It is the same day each year. Do you celebrate this day of Passover or the day called 'Easter'?

I am sure that you are aware that the word 'Easter' is a mistranslation in the KJV.

abiyah

02-27-2007, 03:00 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifThe first day of the Hebrew calender New Year is at The Spring Equinox [Exodus 12:2], most often The Spring Equinox falls on March 20th of each year; At March 20th count forward FOURTEEN DAYS, at SUNDOWN of the FOURTEENTH DAY will begin the 15th Hebrew Day, which begins The Passover [Exodus 12:6], the High Sabbath. Sabbath means rest, Jesus Christ is our Rest.
Exodus 12:1-2
" And The LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you THE BEGINNING OF MONTHS; it shall be THE FIRST MONTH OF THE YEAR TO YOU. "
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif This is at The Spring Equinox, according to the solar calender, as God's children are children of the light. The Spring Equinox usually falls on March 20th of each year. This is the Hebrew month of Abib or 'Green Ear month'.

Exodus 12:3
" Speak ye unto ALL THE CONGREGATION of Israel saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house; "

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif This will lead up to where Jesus Christ will become our Lamb, The Lamb of God.
Exodus 12:4
" And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. "
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif In other words, The LORD is instructing that there be none remaining over.
Exodus 12:5
" Your lamb SHALL BE WITHOUT BLEMISH, a male of the first year; ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats; "
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Jesus Christ BECAME our Passover Lamb, The Lamb of God, without blemish and without spot . He became our Passover [I Cor. 5:6-7] In which through the precious blood of The Lamb, we Passover 'death' into Eternal Life.[i]
Exodus 12:6
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif" And ye SHALL KEEP IT UP UNTIL THE FOURTEENTH DAY OF THE SAME MONTH; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it IN THE EVENING. "
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif The Hebrew day started at sunset. The same month= being Abib=Spring Equinox. The 14th day at sundown begins the 15th day, which is Passover, and is The High Sabbath.

david_munson

02-27-2007, 03:16 PM

Smyrna,
not posting does not equate to ignoring.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Interesting topic.
Looks like it's being covered well.

Do you know the history of the staff that the pope carries and it's connection to the Babylonian tau symbol?

}

abiyah

02-27-2007, 05:19 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gifSpring Equinox begins the first day of the first month of The Hebrew Calender Year/Abib; we start then at The Spring Equinox, which is March 20th, then counting forward 14 days, the 14th day at sundown which is April 2nd, which begins the 15th day and begins The Passover. The Passover begins at sundown on April 2 and ends at sundown of April 3rd, this is The High Sabbath.


MARCH 2007

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sat

1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31

APRIL 2007

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 

Exodus 12:14
" And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; AND YE SHALL KEEP IT A FEAST TO THE LORD THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS; YE SHALL KEEP IT A FEAST by an ordinance FOR EVER. "

abiyah

02-27-2007, 05:21 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif Continued from the above

We FIND in that 14th verse of Exodus Chapter 12, that we are to KEEP The Passover feast FOR EVER. Jesus Christ, The Lamb of God BECAME that Passover Meal, for He became our Passover . It is Written that ye SHALL KEEP The Passover, not some Ishtar/Easter celebration, and IT IS WRITTEN THAT WE ARE TO KEEP IT TO WHO ? TO THE LORD. [i]

Mark 14:22
" And as they did eat, Jesus took bread [=that being unleavened bread], and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, TAKE, EAT; THIS IS MY BODY. "

Mark 14:23
" And He took the cup [= of wine], and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them; and they ALL DRANK OF IT. "

Mark 14:24
" And He said unto them, THIS IS MY BLOOD of the New Testament, which is shed for many. "

BACK TO EXODUS

Exodus 12:15
" Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. "

Seven days FROM the 15th day of the first month [begining at the Spring Equinox as discussed above]. The leaven is SYMBOLIC of sin. KEEP SIN out of your house, utilize good sense and judgement. Perhaps throughout these 7 days bringing forth Passover readings of The Word of God, to your friends and family, as they did in times past. I do hope that you will put away the ishtar/easter tradition, and bring forth Passover this year 2007 and each year thereafter, for indeed Christ BECAME our Passover.

Abiyah

(Message edited by Abiyah on February 27, 2007)

smyrna

02-27-2007, 06:26 PM

Dave wrote:

"Smyrna,
not posting does not equate to ignoring.'

That is true, but not being able to post, because of ignorance, is also a reason, and a likely one.
Dave also asked: "Do you know the history of the staff that the pope carries and its connection to the Babylonian tau symbol?"

The Tau was one symbol of the Cross, and as with many ancient symbols, had different meanings over time and cultures.

Though I am sure you are taking a conspiratorial viewpoint of the issue, I can assure you that the symbology behind the Pope's choosing the Tau for his Crozier has nothing to do with satanism, worshipping or even becoming the antichrist, or any of the other attendent nonsense spun by the anti-Catholic crowd.

If I remember correctly, the Pope (in this case Innocent III I believe),chose the symbol because he said the tau mark was the sign of his reform of the church.
The Pope explained that the tau was both the mark in Ezekiel and the true form of the cross on which Christ was crucified.

bear

02-28-2007, 01:30 AM

Watchman,

I celebrate the first. I believe that it is Nisan 15 that you are feferring to.

david_munson

02-28-2007, 03:32 PM

The babylonian Tau was around a long time before the crucifiction took place.
It is a pagan symbol which has been adopted into "church" ritual by the leaders that where in Rome.
I don't know about conspiracy.
I think it's more of a mistake in judgement than anything else.
You know,
like trying to please the world would be.

}

abiyah

02-28-2007, 06:08 PM

Watchman WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " Hi bear,
THE CRUCUFIXION DAY WAS THE 15th DAY OF THE NEW YEAR. It is THE SAME DAY EACH YEAR. Do you celebrate THIS DAY OF PASSOVER or the day called 'Easter'? " END QUOTE
*********************************************** **

Bear WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " Watchman,
I celebrate the first. I believe that it is Nisan 15 that you are feferring to. "
*********************************************** **

Yes Bear, that is correct, it is the 15th Nisan according to The Jewish Calender. Although in The Bible the first month of The Hebrew Calender is called 'Abib'. Nisan and Abib are the same month, but somehow have different names. I'm not sure were 'Nisan' came from, as in The Bible its known as 'Abib'.... "Perhaps" the Babylonian Calender ? This I know not, and is just a guess. 

Exodus 13:1
" And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, "

Exodus 13:2
" Sanctify unto Me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast; it is Mine."

Exodus 13:3
" And Moses said unto the people, REMEMBER THIS DAY, IN WHICH ye CAME OUT OF EGYPT, OUT OF THE HOUSE OF BONDAGE; for by strength of Hand The LORD BROUGHT you OUT FROM THIS PLACE; there shall NO LEAVENED BREAD be eaten. "

Exodus 13:4
" THIS DAY CAME YE OUT IN THE MONTH OF ABIB."

These verses speak of the very FIRST Passover, as the first Passover was on the 15th Abib/Nisan and is equal to our April 2nd at sundown through April 3rd sundown 2007. Bear... you have no idea how great this is to hear that you brother, do commemorate The Lord's Passover [Exodus 13:8:10], and not Ishtar/Easter. " ) That's great and I wish that more of our Christian brothers and sisters knew to do this also. I do hope that you and your family enjoy and have a beautiful Passover 2007 and in the partaking of The Holy Communion.

Abiyahhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

abiyah

02-28-2007, 07:18 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifHey There ALL ! " )

I thought to mention for those that may want to try and make their own 'Matstsah' / 'Unleavened' Bread for The Holy Communion to take at Passover, that I have a simple recipe to share if you'd like.

'Matstsah' / 'Unleavened' Bread 
I Corinthians 5:6-7
Matthew 26:26-28 

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif1 1/2 Cups (sifted)Flour

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif 1/2 Cup Water

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif 1/2 Cup Milk

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif 2 Tbl. Olive Oil

* Mix all and then roll into a dough ball. Then, roll out the ball thinly. Cut out a circle or circles. Bake at 450-500 for about 5-10 minutes or until lightly/golden brown.

~ Should look like this... lol
www.workersforjesus.com/flatbread.gif (http://www.workersforjesus.com/flatbread.gif)
 

" And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; THIS IS MY BODY [I Peter 1:19]. And He took the cup, and gave Thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is My blood of The New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. " Matthew 26:26-28

Abiyah

terluvire

02-28-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:
__________________________________________________
That's great and I wish that more of our Christian brothers and sisters knew to do this also. I do hope that you and your family enjoy and have a beautiful Passover 2007 and in the partaking of The Holy Communion.
__________________________________________________

Amen Abiyah !!!

I serve the Passover Lamb, not the easter ham. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks for that easy recipe for unleavened bread.

Agape,
Ter

smyrna

03-01-2007, 12:18 AM

Dave, you forgot to read why Pope Innocent chose the tau. I already explained why. I also said that the tau, as many ancient symbols, have different meanings depending upon cultures,eras, and other factors.

You are trying to force one meaning, and it isn't working, except in your own mind. So beleive what you want. One billion Catholics disagree.

skooter942000

03-01-2007, 12:19 AM

- What, no SALT? (http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif)

abiyah

03-01-2007, 05:21 PM

Skooter WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " - What, no SALT? ( http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif)"
*********************************************** **}

You most certainly CAN ADD salt. LOL ! LOL ! I think I WILL brother. Good idea. " ) Now... can you please pass me the salt ? LOL !

Mark 9:50
" Salt is good; but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it ? HAVE SALT IN YOURSELVES, AND HAVE PEACE ONE WITH ANOTHER. " 

Agape,

Abiyah http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

david_munson

03-02-2007, 03:10 PM

I understand that Smyrna,I just don't think it wise to adopt pagan symbols into the Christian faith.
The Tau is a pagan symbol devoid of any real connection to the cross since it was around long before Crucifixion was used as a means of punishment.
How one could claim it was representative of the cross is beyond logic and reason.
It is pagan and incorporating it into "Christianity" doesn't make of it anything Godly.

I'm not anti-catholic.
There are doctrinal issues of a serious nature within the RCC.
Forbidding to eat meats (I believe that's done on a certain friday) is one.
Forbidding to marry is another of which we see the results across the nation in the child molestation cases.
The "onus" is on the priest and any one else who knew these things and did nothing but it still has an effect upon the "faithful".

The point remains that doctrinal isues like this dogma that defies God's Word and adopting pagan symbolism is not a part of the Gospel.
It goes towards deception rather than clarity where it concerns the things of God.

We cannot grab a pagan symbol and convert it to the christian faith.It has other leanings which do not serve God's ways.

The Tau is a symbol of pagan worship.
Not of the Christian faith.

But you can see it any way you want to.
That is the power of freedom.
OUI?

}

angie0401

03-02-2007, 04:15 PM

Forbidding to marry is another of which we see the results across the nation in the child molestation cases.
David,
This is not a fair statement. There are child molesters in every walk of life. Abstinence or forbidding to marry does NOT turn someone into a child molester. Child molesters become priests (or teachers or policeman or counselors or coaches....), priests don't become child molesters.

I just read an article that the Baptist church (of which I am a member) and the non-denominational churches are the groups most likely to be involved in child sexual abuse because of the lack of accountability - they didn't mention anything about marriage. I read this in a Baptist publication, so it seems credible to me.

We cannot grab a pagan symbol and convert it to the christian faith.It has other leanings which do not serve God's ways.
Then I'm assuming you don't celebrate Christmas with an evergreen tree and decorations OR Easter with colored eggs and bunny rabbits, right?

david_munson

03-03-2007, 02:30 PM

Angie said in responce,
"We cannot grab a pagan symbol and convert it to the christian faith.It has other leanings which do not serve God's ways.
Then I'm assuming you don't celebrate Christmas with an evergreen tree and decorations OR Easter with colored eggs and bunny rabbits, right?"
---
You guessed correctly.I don't celebrate those things.
I find them to be a waste of money and time.
I can't for the life of me figure why anyone would want to be so "obligated" to spend themselves into such debt over something that didn't even happen on that day to begin with.
All Christmas is now is a huge money pit for slaves to sentimentality and useless tradition.
I don't feel "obligated" to enslave myself to such.

Christ didn't invent Moneymas.He provided salvation.

---
About forbidding to marry,
It doesn't help a man with his natural drives which are meant for marriage and the Word says it's a demon doctrine(1Ti*4:1-5) and it violates the command to "be fruitful and multiply".

I am not trying to say that the Catholic body has any more problems than any others ,just that preventing that which is God's will for men and women does create it's own set of problems and will exacurbate any existing sexual problems that a person might have.

It's like holding some meat in front of a dog and telling him not to drool.He can't help it because it is his nature.
Man is a sexual being and having a mate is a part of who man is and who he was created to be.
(disclaimer)
Not marrying is a personal decision and is not a sin.
(just keeping the pendulum from swinging to wide)

}

smyrna

03-05-2007, 03:12 PM

Dave wrote:

"I'm not anti-catholic.
There are doctrinal issues of a serious nature within the RCC.
Forbidding to eat meats (I believe that's done on a certain friday) is one.
Forbidding to marry is another of which we see the results across the nation in the child molestation cases."

Dave, you are wrong. We had this conversation already on another thread.Not only did I note that even Bullinger, a Protestant, disagreed with your opinion, and didn't even tie that passage to catholics, celibacy and abstinence from meat are OPTIONS, not prohibitions.

When you VOLUNTEER t become a Priest, you know beforehand what is expected of you. Abstaining from meat on any Friday or in some Catholic religious orders it is their choice to abstain from red meat and pork, though they eat fish, is FASTING, and not obeying any prohibition, any forbidding.Fasting is something widely practiced in Catholicism, and it is those who are Christians that do not, that have moved away from
an exercise that Jesus practiced, as well as instructed about:

"Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly" (Matt. 6:16-18).

I have close relationships with some in those orders, and they do eat meat when recovering from illness for strength.

Once more, I will quote Bullinger in the footnotes to I Timothy 4:3

"Forbidding to marry.This has been taken as indicating the Church of Rome, but that Church only enjoins the celibacy of priests monks and nuns.
Spiritism, or the teaching of demons, enjoins only being united to the "spiritual affinity" and has wrecked many homes." Of meat, he writes: Spiritist teaching is that animal food is unfavorable to the development of mediumistic power."

david_munson

03-05-2007, 03:39 PM

"Forbidding to marry.This has been taken as indicating the Church of Rome, but that Church only enjoins the celibacy of priests monks and nuns.
Spiritism, or the teaching of demons, enjoins only being united to the "spiritual affinity" and has wrecked many homes." Of meat, he writes: Spiritist teaching is that animal food is unfavorable to the development of mediumistic power."
---
Forbidding to marry is not excusable for any reason.It cannot be justified by saying that only "priests,nuns and munks" are to be celibate.
This is a "straw man" justification of that which is plainly disallowed.

The "Demon doctrines" reference is to this forbidding of marriage.
When a "church order" places a requirement of celibacy upon any of it's members they are invoking this demonic doctrine of forbidding to marry.
There are other orders than catholic that exact this from their members also.
There is no justification for this practice.
It is man's tradition.
(like what you say you do not follow)

Bullinger is weird.

(my opinion)

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smyrna

03-05-2007, 04:33 PM

Dave,

Once again you err. The RCC does not forbid marriage, it has rules about celibacy when living in religious orders or are of Holy Orders (priests, bishops, cardinals, etc)and if any of them wish to step away from those vocations and marry, they are in no way condemned for it, and many have chosen to do so.

You really need to do a brief study on the history
of monasticism, and see that there is a value in that way of life.

If that were not so, John the Baptist would have had a wife living with him in the wilderness, for example.

Bullinger is weird? Come on, he was a brilliant theologian. I'd really like to know why you think this about the man. What is your opinion based upon? Because you disagree with his work? is that how you describe everyone you disagree with?

bear

03-06-2007, 02:42 AM

There is a Priest who is the rector of a parish, the cathedral, in Grand Rapids Michigan, who is married. I am guessing that he was married Prior to entering the priesthood.

I some times catch the mass on TV as I am getting ready for church on Sundays.

I used to be Catholic as a child.

smyrna

03-06-2007, 05:06 AM

Bear,

Anglican priests who covert to Catholicism (really better phrased as "to enter into full communion")who are married are not bound to a vow of celibacy.

david_munson

03-06-2007, 01:59 PM

"'if' any of them wish to step away from those vocations and marry."
---
You support what I stated with this statement.
You are agreeing with me that they are forbidden to marry.
If they have to "step away" then they can't get married while they hold their position.
(not a Biblical directive)
How is this not forbidding?

This is man's tradition you are defending.
One of the things you preach against is man's tradition but here you support it.

Isn't that the very definition of a double standard?

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smyrna

03-06-2007, 04:46 PM

Dave,

Because forbidding would be for the Church to demand they not get married under any circumstance.

Your reasoning, if you want to call it that, is like saying the company you work for forbids inter-office romantic relationships, unless each partner works in a different department. It is a rule that has conditions, not a blanket prohibition.

The reason the Church requires celibacy from its priests is that they chose in the early days of the Church to follow the suggestions of Paul, who addresses this topic in detail in I Corinthians 7:9.

One translation puts it this way, though all are in harmony with the school of thought:

MHC: 7:1-9 "The apostle tells the Corinthians that it was good, in that juncture of time, for Christians to keep themselves single. Yet he says that marriage, and the comforts of that state, are settled by Divine wisdom. Though none may break the law of God, yet that perfect rule leaves men at liberty to serve him in the way most suited to their powers and circumstances, of which others often are very unfit judges. All must determine for themselves, seeking counsel from God how they ought to act."

source: http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/7-9.htm

The Church obviously follows this, and as the above reflects.

I've always found it amusing that it is not the priests themselves, but critics of the priesthood, that have an issue with the vow of celibacy. Though there are activists that want celibacy relaxed (i.e. allowing priest to marry) the clear majority do not, and consider celibacy to be of value in their vocations, which is precisely one of St. Paul's points in his discourse on marriage.

Therefore, those who disagree must be consistent, and thereby they must accuse St. Paul himself of teaching "doctrines of devils."

PS: You still ave not shared with me why you think Bullinger is "weird."

smyrna

03-06-2007, 04:55 PM

And Dave,

If you wish to read more about the history of celibacy and the Church, you can go here:

http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/catholic_perspective/tracing_the_glorious_origins_of_celibacy.htm

smyrna

03-07-2007, 02:00 AM

Dave,

I have another site for you to check out that addresses directly your claim that I Tim. 4:1-5 is talking about the Catholic Church:

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/1tim43.html

david_munson

03-07-2007, 02:25 PM

You misunderstand what I am stating Smyrna.
I am stating that verse applies to all churches not just the catholic church.
It doesn't mention any specific church by name but is intended for all churches to benefit from.

The Catholics have been doing this for a long time and it's just easy to site them as an example since it is well known that there are "requirements" for holding certain positions.
Requirements that the Word doesn't make a command of.
They are to be left up to the individual and not incorporated into the dogma of the churches tradition.
If it was left up to the individual I would find it to be consistant with the Word but it is used in such a way as to be a requirement for sevice if one wants to serve that way.

Paul said it is better to remain single because of the problems that couples have to deal with in their relationships.
1 Corinthians 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

I think he probably realized he would have made the new testament a lot longer than the old if he went into details about the problems that come with marriage.(trouble in the flesh)

Marry or not?
The church should have no say between two people regardless of their station in the church organization.(except same sex)
If the Pope wanted to get married there is no prohibition from scripture that the church can site to prevent it.
Only man's tradition.(prohibition)

There is also no indication that Paul was refering to priests,pastors,evangalists or any other servents position.
He was speaking to the general congregation.

OUI?

}

smyrna

03-07-2007, 03:05 PM

No Dave,

Not oui?

You really need to study the history of the "tradition." And you apparently miss the entire scope of Paul's teaching. But no matter, what is important is that any Church who practices celibacy or abstinence from meat has members who do so willingly as part of their vocational requirements.

And it is not the sacrifice so many outsiders think it is.

I know a Trappist monk that asked me what I cook for breakfast when I am at sea. When I started mentioning sausage and bacon and ham, he grimaced, and said "ouch!" (the Trappists are mainly vegetarians)

But there are also exceptions. When staying at the guest house he told me he was surprised to find that the brothers he busted raiding the fridge in the guest house at night were not the young novices having problems converting to the simple diet, but the older ones who had been there for years, going after a piece of bologna.

He made me laugh when he said: "But I wouldn't tell the Abbot on them, because they'd be polishing the Church floor with toothbrushes!"
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

david_munson

03-08-2007, 02:50 PM

Smyrna,
"willingly as part of their vocational requirements."

Sounds like when you go some place that has a required "voluntary donation" to get in.
Do this or no cigar.
That's not voluntary.So it still places a limit on the people that should not be placed on them but should be up to them to decide on their own without being coerced into it.
It's a "tradition" only and not a commandment,voluntary or otherwise.

Anyway,
I'm not trying to pick on the catholics.I know many who have a great love for the Lord despite some of the tradition involved in their religion.

Someone I am familiar with mentioned Mother Terresa in a post I was reading.
They had nothing but praise for her life and I agree with them on that.
She lived a wonderfully Christ centered life and people could see His life through hers.
She laid her own life down for people she didn't even know and I think that is the most Christ like action anyone could ever take.

I think if we examined her life we would see Christ in operation through her submission to His will.
We would also see a compassion that could only have stemmed from one who knew Christ in a very personal way.So personal that it caused her to pour herself out for the sake of others.

We may never see a life such as hers again this side of eternity.
Who knows though?
Maybe there is some one who reads on FN that will be called in like manner as Terresa and go forth revealing Christ to those who come in contact with them.

I am certain that any one of us could be called to show love to other people for Christ.
Love that endures all in order to reveal "The One".

}

smyrna

03-08-2007, 05:40 PM

Dave,

I think you contradicted yourself:

Smyrna: "...willingly as part of their vocational requirements."

"Sounds like when you go some place that has a required "voluntary donation" to get in."

(a digression here: the principle is sound, but you highlighted an abuse of that principal in your analogy. For instance, when I go to a retreat, the monks ask for a voluntary donation. If you don't have one, they will NOT turn you away. Your analogy, for it to work for your purpose, demands that one abuse the claim)

Back to your contradiction: "I think if we examined her (Mother Theresa)life we would see Christ in operation through her submission to His will."

When someone responds to a call to religious life, when they choose a religious vocation, they ARE submitting to His will. Because they feel called to it. They submit to what they agree is Christ's will for them.

Now since as I told you earlier, whether you agree with it or not, Catholics feel that if they devote themselves to a religious vocation, they follow God's will, as it was suggested by Paul, that they remain single(celibate). It is an option, they can marry and still serve God outside holy Orders (priesthood), but there is pragmatism at work in remaining single, as Paul taught.

(Contrast this with the mandate that Rabbis must be married, with few exceptions, just as catholics ask for celibacy.)

Now, one can certainly serve God and be married. As I stated earlier, Anglican priests who are married can remain so even when they become Catholic priests.

The Church has considered allowing all their priest to have the option. However, contrary to what the media would have you believe, it was the priests themselves that are overwhelmingly in favor of maintaining the vows of celibacy.

I suppose that if I worked as hard at keeping that vow as I know they do, I wouldn't vote to throw it out the window either.

david_munson

03-13-2007, 05:01 PM

Smyrna,
the key words are "outside their vocation".
This is not Biblical or voluntary at all.
The command is to not prevent those in the order from marrying.The Word does not say that it's OK if you leave your "vocation" but that it is OK to marry regardless of whether you are a priest or nun or anything in that line.

You told me it wwas voluntary but this following article refutes what you have stated.

Pope upholds Communion, celibacy "bans"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-03-13-pope_N.htm?csp=24

Bans.Not voluntary commitments but bans.
Are you now going to refute the Pope himself?

Doctrines of demons "forbidding to marry".

As I have said,if someone chooses on their own(not by Papal or pastoral decree)to remain celibate,there is no problem but when an order,any order, bans marriage it is a demonic doctrine as the Word says it is.
That is God's Word.

}

skooter942000

03-13-2007, 08:15 PM

Even a SOUL that does not know GOD (Firsthand),
because of Deception , (Still can find HIM),
- through their WORKS. (in part)

Love your Neighbor - is a MUST!!!

Even if you do not know GOD,
But you do this, - (you will be Blessed).

If you do this , (GOD will be with you).
- Most times. = Discernment

GOD is LOVE

This goes over peoples heads at times.

weather you acknowledge him or not.

A Buddhist does not know CHRIST (GOD).
But loving all life, (is a GOODLY WORK).

- and they shall be partially Blessed for this.

ALMIGHTY GOD hates idol worship.
Worshiping , (The Creation)
- more than (The Creator). is not good

But by loving others Helps erase misdeeds.
- Good works override , (Mis-Steps).

CHRIST is the DOOR to SALVATION.

NO CHRIST = NO SALVATION

Enter in (The MILLENNIUM)

- A first chance for MANY to find CHRIST.

satan's deception is grievous.

The Mill will be a wonderful time period for MANY.

- A place to OVERCOME, (Without satan's input).
- He'll be in the PIT.

Arguing with other Christians about who
is the better follower, (is a waste of time).

Pointing fingers at others, (is not CHRIST-LIKE).

The GOODLY Seeds must go to the LOST.

To those who do not know CHRIST (.....Yet).

If you have them , (And are knowledgeable enough to share them),
- then do so....

- (Not everyone has this GIFT).
- (that's for sure)

David knows this.

Even the AWFUL LYING "CBERS" KNOW THIS.....
(you know who you are)
- Not accusing "u"_all.

You accuse yourselves by your actions against
True Believers of CHRIST.

- But if the shoe fits.... "So be it".

The spirit of Argument is not a CHRISTIAN TRAIT.

Hate is not a gift from GOD.

Hate is a TRAIT from satan himself.

satan accuses FIRST,
_(ALWAYS HAS)_
_always will_

Follow the accusations, and there you will find satan himself ,
(In the midst of the members).

SIN leads you away from GOD,
(Not closer to HIM).

I would rather spend my time with a Atheist
that LOVES OTHERS (PROPERLY).

..Than spending time with a bunch of Hypocrites
that say they love CHRIST, (But HATE YOU),
- in return.

Agape

- To all the (Brethren)

smyrna

03-13-2007, 09:12 PM

DAVE,

Have it your way. One billion Catholics, and many more who are already with the Lord, disagree the Church (the one Jesus founded, the only one Peter ever belonged to)teaches "doctrines of devils."

david_munson

03-14-2007, 03:50 PM

I think you miss what I'm trying so hard to get across.
I am not saying that if a person chooses on their own to remain celebite it is wrong.I'm saying that there is no place for that to be "required" Scripturally by the church leaders.Any church leaders.

The Catholic church began around 300 AD.
Peter was long passed by then.

The true church has no name but that of Christ and is made up of members from many different denominations.
It is a building not made with hands.
It's made of people.
Ga*3:28,Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

I am not,I repeat not condemning catholics.

As I have stated so many times before,"ALL" have error in their theology.
No one is exempt.
Not you nor I nor anyone else.

That is why Philippians 2:12 Says,
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

One reason anyway.

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