Yaakov versus Luther

[lutheratx]

Yaakov we needed a new thread for our discussion. I would also like to add for those who thought I was loosing it (mental case) I believe God has picked me up. Read post numbers 48 49 50 51 52 54 58 60 in Kenite Korner. I had fallen and he lifted me up, he is worthy of our praise. Praise JHVH he is worthy he is worthy. 3 times for emphasis.

(Message edited by lutheratx on April 29, 2007)

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
He certainly is worthy of praise and adoration.

Amen!

</font>}

[yaakov2]

luther

<font color="0000ff">I would also be leary of a religion that blames man for the start of the iniquity satan is the father of sin not Ha Adam.</font>

As I said earlier, the treatment and definition of sin is the single biggest disagreement between our two religions. Consider what you said here. You are saying that you believe satan created evil, not that Adam did. You are saying that G-d didn’t intend for evil to be around, but His creations caused it to appear.

By doing this, you are diminishing G-d. You are pointing to something and saying that G-d didn’t create it. If God didn’t create everything, then He is not All powerful. To say that one of His creations can upset His plans makes G-d look incredibly weak.

G-D CREATED EVERYTHING, INCLUDING EVIL.

Isaiah 45:7 I (G-d) form light as well as create darkness; I make peace as well as create evil

From beingjewish.com
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

In Judaism we do not see it as there being a conflict between good and evil. Some ancient religions believed that there are two forces in the universe, one good and one evil, and that they are constantly warring with each other. This was common to Mthraism, Zroastrianism, and Christianity. Chrstianity, made the devil less powerful than G-d, but still made him a rebel against G-d.

Judaism sees it differently, and we have always seen it differently. Satan is not a rebellious angel. G-d created both good and evil. The Bible says so, in Isaiah 45:7.

What is evil? Not fulfilling G-d's will.

G-d created the universe because G-d wanted to do good. So there had to be people to receive that good.

But G-d does not want to just give away good as a present. G-d wants people to appreciate it. Something you get for free you do not appreciate. And in fact, if you got something amazingly good for free, and you were allowed to enjoy it for all eternity, you would be embarrassed by it. You didn't work for it, you don't deserve it.

So G-d decided that people would have to work for it, and receive the ultimate goodness as a reward for work.

What is that work? Well, G-d created the Evil Inclination, the angel called Satan, whose job it is to tempt us to do evil. If we ignore the Evil Inclination, then we get closer to G-d, and become more holy. By doing so, we merit the reward of the ultimate goodness. G-d also gave us Commandments, and the Tempting Angel tempts us to find reasons not to keep those Commandments. By ignoring the temptations, and fulfilling G-d's Commandments, we become more spiritual, and our souls gain more power over ourselves. So we see our lives in this world as an opportunity. We have been granted the glorious opportunity to attain holiness and ultimate goodness.

Then you ask how a G-d of love can create evil. How can a G-d who is totally righteous create evil?

As a tool.

Just as a parent must teach a child and use the carrot and the stick (punishment) to raise the child to do the right thing, so G-d uses good and evil to teach us. G-d is our parent -- all of mankind's father. And spiritually we are all children.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

[iamwhoiam]

"There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so." William Shakespeare

[lutheratx]

I like me some neginoth. The main man right there holla at your boy. Im not trying to build you up we all have downfalls but I gots to keep reading your post. Holla.
To my fellow Christains if you see things I am doing or saying that are out of line or just wrong I will take suggestions of course never ever ever changing what I know to be true.

Oh and one more thing I was watching Tyra Banks this morning and you would not believe the guy this forum is trying to link us with. This was a guy who believed in the seperate creation of Ha Adam except this guy groups all white men with this creation (moron) and believes all Judah is the offsprings of Cain. Here is the problem Cain didnot have a sister from the same father so who the hell is he mating with? I cant believe people would group us with him. What do you think he would say about the way I explain in Romans 11 where the vine is grafted in and partakes of the same fat of the olive tree. Yeah guys he is also covered in tatoos I wouldn't do that, he in fact is caring traditions of the Kenites and doesn't even know it.

[neginoth]

Hello Luther.

It would appear that Yaakov enjoys the privilege of quoting the "New Testament" to prove his points, yet will not permit others to do the same. Therefore, understanding his method of operation, my will endeavor be to show him from the "Old Testament" exclusively that very little of what Jesus taught in the "New Testament" was "new" at all.

I would recommend they everybody else do as they are led.

Concerning peace, perhaps it would behoove us to differentiate between man's peace and God's peace.

Peace under mankind is fragile, and there is always a nut who wants to throw a wrench into the works.

<blockquote>1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, "Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.

1Sa 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them."

1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.

1Sa 8:11 And he said, "This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>, and put them to his work.

1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day."</blockquote>

Peace under mankind's leadership is not the type of "peace" I want. It is a false peace, and a false hope.

True peace will be achieved when the LORD reigns on earth again: a battle first, then peace. Zech 14.

[watchman_2]

yaakov2,

I think that the evidence is overwhelming that God did not create evil. Even, a conservative Jew can realize that the OT evidence does not support your claim.

In my humble opinion, by way of God giving the first age beings 'free will' and providing the condition of calamity in their place of habitation [earth], God, certainly, would have anticipated that 'free will' also includes the possiblity of turning against Him.

After all, the purpose of God's creation was for His pleasure. How would it be pleasing if he created it with complete knowledge of whom was good and whom was evil? I say no pleasure could be derived from that.

I think that confirmation of God's anticipation of the outcome of his creation of 'free will' can be derived from scripture.

<font color="0000ff">Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
</font>
A check of Strong's for the word 'covereth' -

<font color="119911">H5526
&amp;#1513;&amp;#1474;&amp;#1499;&amp;#1498; &amp;#1505;&amp;#1499;&amp;#1498;
sa&amp;#770;kak s&amp;#769;a&amp;#770;kak
saw-kak', saw-kak'
A primitive root; properly to entwine as a screen; by implication to fence in, cover over, (figuratively) protect: - cover, defence, defend, hedge in, join together, set, shut up.
</font>
Satan's job as a cherub was to protect (the mercy seat). Logic dictates that, if God expected all the 'free will' beings to love him, there would be no need of a mercy seat or a cherub to protect that mercy seat.

So, perhaps the best choice for interpreting the word 'evil' in Isa. 45:7 would be -

<font color="119911">ra&amp;#8219; ra&amp;#770;&amp;#8219;a&amp;#770;h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
</font>
With the conditions of calamity and freewill, the potential of evilfavouredness would exist. Hence, a mercy seat and a protector would be necessary. However, there is no indication that the creation itself by God was ever evil.

As God tests us in this second age with calamity and potential to do evil, so was it in the first age. The first age was a test by God to see whom, of those given free will, would choose good or evil.
****

[yaakov2]

watchman_2

<font color="0000ff">yaakov2,
I appreciate your perspective. As a follow-up, is it fair to persume that the Jew generally believes that everyone is just going through the motions in this life? If God created evil and everyone is predestined to fall under the umbrella of good or evil, then there is no purpose for our existence at this time. Nothing would change.</font>

I don't understand your question. How does your question apply to whether G-d created evil or some other entity created evil?

A Jew is the person and Judaism is the religion. And no, Judaism does not believe that everyone is just going through motions. Judaism believes that we should choose the good and forbear the evil.

Why would you say that making a choice between good and evil is not our purpose? It seems clear to me that it is G-d's ultimate purpose for us.

Just to speculate, just suppose that every person on Earth choose to do only good. Though evil and selfishness were free choices, everyone just choose generosity and good. It sound like paradise, dare I even say, the messianic age. In such a climate, man could agree to forbear from war. I think it would be Heaven on Earth. Far from nothing changing, it would be the ultimate change.

[smyrna]

"These Shepherd Chapel trhreads were NOT created to convert yaakov to Christianity. They and the thousands of posts here are to reveal the racist, Jew hating, poisonous heresy that spews forth from Shepoherd's Chapel and arnie's/satan's mind."

Boy, you'd think Frankie wouldn't be so worried about us trying to convert Yaakov to Christianity. After all, he doesn't even think we are Christians.

Yaakov, based upon what you have discussed here so far, do you really think we hate Jews?

I sure hope you do not. You have every right to believe what you beleive.

Now, for illustration, let's compare soem things:

Frankie said "Judaism is a legitimate religion based on Holy scripture revealed to man by God."

"Shepherd's Chapel is a false religion based on man perverting the word of God!"

Yaakov, you claim that Jesus the Christ is not the Messiah. We who are SC students claim He is.

Frankie, a Christian, calls your religion legitimate, while the SC he calls unchristian.

Putting our (SC) differences aside, isn't it curious that Franklin, a declared Christians, would say something like that?

That would be like you, Yaakov, saying that another sect within Judaism, like the Hasidics, calling Conservative Jews heretics and racists.

Hey Yaakov, how would you like to pose with us in front of the Shepherd's Chapel Church sometime?

Maybe we can even have Pastor Murray pick you up in the jet.



http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[franklin]

There is no "Church of Franklin" and you know that. Just more cultic smearing and propaganda of yours. I am a Christian and YOU are NOT!

getagrip, saygoodnightgracie is a cyberstalking creep and you know it. Your cyberbullying is not working smearnoff. You are the tares. Not the mythical "kenites". Not the blacks and orientals. The Shepherd's Chapel and Word of Faith heretics are the tares.

I will not tolerate anymore harrassment of the people I care for. Defend your cult however you wish. Namecalling and smearing is your style. Not Christ's but satan's. Your master. Tell your cult comrade saygoodnightgracie, if it is not you, to dry up and blow away.

A man does not tolerate creeps cyberstalking women. You would know that if you were a man. But satan and arnie have robbed you of your manhood so just a drone you will ever be under their satanic spell.

Abandon arnie's heresy.

Eve is the mother of ALL living.

Adam is the father of Cain.

[franklin]

Nope the Captain Franklin speech sounds like Churhill. Not Hitler. I'm sorry to use the "C" word on your Nazi ears. How you must hate Churchhill. With his AMERICAN friends he kicked hitler heiney! Too bad for you.

If Hitler had been left alone like you want to be left alone now, the world would be heaven for you SCERs. There would be no Kenites because there would be no Jews. All of the mud peoples would be under the subjugation of the lilly white Adamic/Aryan race "MASSUH'S".

Your writings reveal your hateful hearts. How you hate us for being on welfare, having more welfare babies, taking your jobs, marrying your daughters, speaking ebonics, speaking Espanol, speaking anything we want besides the "Massuh" language of "Englaise".

Yep, when arnie goes from being Cult Leader to Fuhrer of the World then you goose stepping SCers will come out of your politically correct closets and whip us'n mud peoples into total submission.

You lilly white Germanic racist snobs ain't shiite. We kicked your arses in WW2, we'll do it again.

Your hero is hitler. Mine is Churchill. He had both his balls!

[franklin]

oooooo brute nazi force. ooooo I'm scared.

Let's see, you believe all of the same poison Hitler believed. serpent seed, kenites, 6th day creation mud peoples, the 'chosen' massuh Aryan Germanic/British race, mansions in heaven for the Nazis, ghettos for the mud peoples....

I'd say Hitler is your hero. But arnie represents the spirit of Hitler now.

You going to be a racist then expect to get squashed like a bug.

There is no room on this planet or heaven for racist Nazis.

Abandon this heresy now!

Eve is the mother of ALL humanity.

Adam is the father of Cain.

[lutheratx]

Franklin has one subject that is it, we have covered alot of ground, he has one subject. Im sure he believes that this will happen before Christ return.

(Yaakov Iam sorry to take your post guy it is just that us Christians do not believe this is possible without Christ.)

Yaakov: Just to speculate, just suppose that every person on Earth choose to do only good. Though evil and selfishness were free choices, everyone just choose generosity and good. It sound like paradise, dare I even say, the messianic age. In such a climate, man could agree to forbear from war. I think it would be Heaven on Earth. Far from nothing changing, it would be the ultimate change.

Luther: Beautiful words Franklin let see what Christ says

Matthew 10:33 <font color="ff0000">But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.</font>

Is Christ telling us to stand up for him in his absents. See you are going to fall in to the one world system because you will see me not wanting to take part and say it is because PM is not the head of it, and the ethnic people are not my subjects. You will rejoice in seeing the punishments put on to me, they will tell you that this is the Luther you hate. Your god is coming for you Franklin in the messianic age Yaakov spoke of. In this period of peace your messiah will come to this earth and promise to fly you away. (2nd Thess 2) What did Christ say about conforming to the other religions.

Luke 12:49 <font color="ff0000">I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?</font>

[yaakov2]

lutheratx

<font color="0000ff">Yaakov you do understand why I have to stick up for Messiah right?</font>

Sure, it’s natural. If a person thinks that another person is “dissing” their beliefs, then it is natural to defend your beliefs.

The conflict comes when person A insists that person B must change their beliefs to match person A’s beliefs. Person B defends their beliefs and Person A feels that they are being attacked. Maturity and self-confidence are displayed when Person A states their beliefs, Person B states their beliefs, and neither feels insulted or threatened by the other.

<font color="0000ff">We'll just say I'm fully doctrinated. You wouldn't want me just to whore after you because you got the better of me a couple of times. Of course right know I whooping you. (just kidding man) Don't take this lighter side of me for granted it wont last when ever you get my righteous indignation flaring up.</font>

LOL. I guess I better enjoy it while it lasts.