Trinty as proven in the bible only!!!

[praetorian]

I would like to start this New Thread with the Theme of the “Trinity” (including Oneness) as to whether or not this teaching it is explicitly taught in God’s Word, the Holy Bible! I respectfully request that when you post, that you do so with this theme in mind. If you do not believe in the Bible then I ask that you do not post, as doing so, ignores the reason behind the theme of this thread and ask that you post elsewhere that betters suits "that" discussion!

To start this thread off I take the information from the following page as a foundation, http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html and what is worthy of noting is that there seem to be various "Christian Scholars" that readily express that the doctrine of God being Triune (Whether it be Trinity or Oneness) is "not explicitly stated in the Bible." Note that here, I am referring scholars and those that come from “main stream” Christendom!

Therefore, it is the position of the orginating poster of this thread, that no can state explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” and or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead, that this must be inferred and implied because of Christian people choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

I welcome your comments and again respectfully request that we keep the theme of this thread in mind when posting!

Sincerely,

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

For those who want to know is a oneness pentecostalism website. Oneness pentecostalism is listed on every index as a cult.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/hemphill-doctrine.html

According to witnesses, he claims he received a revelation in 1986 that Jesus was not God, but was as the Son of God, a special created human being. According to those who have read his book "To God Be The Glory", Hemphill claims Jesus was born of the virgin Mary from a special new creative act of God. God put a new seed in Mary that was not defiled with the sin of the Adamic race and was thereby able to produce sinless blood in Jesus. According to the doctrine as we now know it, Hemphill joins the ranks of the Jews who denied the deity of Jesus. He also joins the ranks of the Muslims who deny the deity of Jesus. In our investigation into those who claim Jesus was only a man and not God, we discoverered some other major groups who believe the same doctrine Joel Hemphill is publishing. These other groups are: Ebionites, Freemasonry, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Iglesia ni Cristo (Philippines).

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Arianism developed around 320, in Alexandria Egypt concerning the person of Christ and is named after Arius of Alexandar. For his doctrinal teaching he was exiled to Illyria in 325 after the first ecumenical council at Nicaea condemned his teaching as heresy. It was the greatest of heresies within the early church that developed a significant following. Some say, it almost took over the church.

Arius taught that only God the Father was eternal and too pure and infinite to appear on the earth. Therefore, God produced Christ the Son out of nothing as the first and greatest creation. The Son is then the one who created the universe. Because the Son relationship of the Son to the Father is not one of nature, it is, therefore, adoptive. God adopted Christ as the Son. Though Christ was a creation, because of his great position and authority, he was to be worshipped and even looked upon as God. Some Arians even held that the Holy Spirit was the first and greatest creation of the Son.

At Jesus' incarnation, the Arians asserted that the divine quality of the Son, the Logos, took the place of the human and spiritual aspect of Jesus, thereby denying the full and complete incarnation of God the Son, second person of the Trinity.

In asserting that Christ the Son, as a created thing, was to be worshipped, the Arians were advocating idolatry.

Monarchianism

Monarchianism (mono - "one"; arche - "rule") was an error concerning the nature of God that developed in the second century A.D. It arose as an attempt to maintain Monotheism and refute tritheism. Unfortunately, it also contradicts the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. Monarchianism teaches that there is one God as one person: the Father. The Trinity is that there is one God in three persons: Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is monotheistic, not polytheistic as some of its critics like to assert. Monarchians were divided into two main groups, the dynamic monarchians and the modal monarchians.

Dynamic Monarchianism teaches that God is the Father and that Jesus is only a man, denied the personal subsistence of the Logos and taught that the Holy Spirit was a force or presence of God the Father. Additionally, some ancient dynamic monarchianists were also known as Adoptionists who taught that Jesus was tested by God and after passing this test and upon His baptism, He was granted supernatural powers by God and adopted as the Son. Ancient teachers of dynamic monarchianism were Theodotians, a Tanner in Byzantium around 190 A.D., and Paul of Samosata a bishop of Antioch in Syria around 260 AD.

Modal monarchianism teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are just modes of the single person who is God. In other words, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not simultaneous and separate persons, but consecutive modes of one person. Praxeas, a priest from Asia Minor, taught this in Rome around 200 AD. The present day modalists maintain that God's name is Jesus. They also require baptism "in Jesus' name" not "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" for salvation.

Modalism


Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three consecutive modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.

They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus,and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



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Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



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Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



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Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

[praetorian]

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?


I am asking for the same respect I provide you. If you opened a thread on the science of thermodynamics or the Bible subject of Moses and the miracles it would be rude of me to post something OUTSIDE the-your thread, as it would NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, LET ALONE BE RUDE!!!!

What you post above has nothing to do with the theme of this thread, which is ‘TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY!!!!!!!

Now, note, that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[praetorian]

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?


I am asking for the same respect I provide you. If you opened a thread on the science of thermodynamics or the Bible subject of Moses and the miracles I would be rude of me to post something OUTSIDE this thread, as it would NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, LET ALONE BE RUDE!!!!

What you post above has nothing to do with the theme of this thread, which is ‘TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY!!!!!!!

Now, note, that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[praetorian]

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

TATM AKA, Reverend Sandy Bryant:

I am asking for the same respect I provide you. If you opened a thread on the science of thermodynamics or the Bible subject of Moses and the miracles I would be rude of me to post something OUTSIDE this thread, as it would NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, LET ALONE BE RUDE!!!!

What you post above has nothing to do with the theme of this thread, which is ‘TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY!!!!!!!

Now, note, that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

Your post here, above, is exactly as your post number 787 on the “Trinity” thread which I just replied to again today, for the second time, and is a total disregard for this board as you are waiting space by repeating matters that have already been addressed and I note, I will respond, because not doing so, may allow you and those like you to think that you have actually replied to the issue at hand (the Trinity NOT explicitly stated in the Bible) when you clearly have not!!!! Separate to this you insult yourself, for doing so, when anyone reading this thread can easily know the accuracy of what I represent in this paragraph!!!!

You keep insisting on IGNORING the POINT and that is, nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

The POINT: The responses I provide are from the Bible and I don’t know how many other times or ways in English, that I can express that I am speaking from the standpoint of the Bible and not outsides sources (The “Apostolic Fathers”, that is NOT to be confused with the Apostles and or any of the inspired writers of the Bible) as opposed to the Bible itself, which you keep referring to, but THAT IS NOT BIBLE!!!!

With that said, I will waste more time to respond however, note that you make mention of these same things below, via repetition (though less this time) as you do with your post as found on page 21 of this thread, post number 401 dated 2-14-09 so that others can see that what you do here is nothing new! Also, I replied to your post 401 (which was supposed to have a follow up PART 2, that was never written nor is this one either as this is a partial repeat of your post) under it as post number 407, dated 2-16-09!

Now onto your post above number 787 dated 3.26.09, and note, it is VERY TELLING!!!!!!! Let us see if you even get this. In effect, you are going to MAN-HUMANS-NOTE-NOT BIBLE to establish what you believe! GET IT!!! MAN NOT BIBLE!!!!

NOTE: I hope you can get this point: You obviously went to HUMANS FOR SUPPORT FOR YOUR BELIEFS, which is the WRONG way to get these answers; and despite this, I will address your HUMANS below, while NEVER forgetting that we are supposed to be using God’s word the Bible to settling things!!!!

I take for granted that you “appear” to accurately quote "Polycarp (as I did not do the research for accuracy, for this reply) who himself stated, according to you, “believing in him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ”; therefore, this raises the question; who is this one that raised Jesus from the Dead? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! It does not state here, that Jesus is God or that God is a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! (YOU CAN”T, therego why you are doing this) He also stated, according to you, that Jesus is on a “throne at his right hand” so, at whose right hand is Jesus sitting, “It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! NOTE: Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! He also stated, according to you, that that all things were “subjected” to him, so, who decided to, and “subjected” all things to Jesus? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not that Jesus did this to Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! Also, who is it that will hold the “blood” of ones “responsible” note; it is the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

So far, everything you quoted from Polycarp is indeed found in scripture while nothing in scripture referred to here, or stated, tells you clearly that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!

Note, according to you, Polycarp’s other words: that he praises someone, “through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son” therefore, to whom is Polycarp addressing himself, it cannot be Jesus as this words do not do that? It was to the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

Right after quoting the same exact information about Polycarp in your post 401 (on page 21 of this thread) you state, "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ”; please note how these words do nothing to establish your man made based beliefs, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as this clearly speaks of what is found in scripture, that Jesus has a God and Father, and that Jesus is a High Priest”; therefore, to whom is Jesus serving as High Priest to, and for whom, if your theory of man made beliefs, tells you that Jesus is God and that God is Triune, which by the way, nothing in the words of Polycarp quoted so far indicate this!!!! Thus Jesus is serving as High Priest according to your thinking, to himself and or part of himself! This is NOT BIBLICAL!!!!! So, my question is: Did you read what you posted? Do you see, or can you tell me where in the words you quoted so far, you find the point that supports your belief in man made theology, creeds and dogma; where it that it states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune as so far, we have them spoken of here as separate!!!!!!!

Now, let us discuss the quotes you refer to as coming from Ignatius:

I note that another quote from you states of him, “having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time” and point out that his own statement speaks of Jesus Christ (obviously speaking to his pre-human existence that the Bible clearly mentions) that “was with the Father” speaking of them separately, as again, nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!

You then quote him as stating, “might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him” thus according to these words (again not Bible but his words) that one is to be “fully convinced” that there is “ONE GOD” who “revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son” again, speaking of them separately as NOTHING in these words state, that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!! NOTHING!!!! Note, that to that, he is quoted as stating, “in every respect pleased him” so, who is being spoken of here, Jesus, was Jesus pleasing Jesus? Don’t be ridiculous, he was pleasing his God and Father, and that totally make’s sense!!!!! However, NOTHING here speaks to Jesus being God or that God is Triune, NOTHING!!!!!

You state, “Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles” and this is NOT at issue, what is at issue is whether or not the Bible teaches, or expresses, simply, clearly and plainly that Jesus is God and whether or not God is Triune, WHICH IT DOES NOT AND THAT YOU ARE IN EFFECT STATING, BY NOT DEALING WITH IT, IGNORING IT!!!!!

Note your further quote here, “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son” note now they are spoken of differently, “Father” AND “Jesus” and again nothing here states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!! Now here, Ignatius, makes a LEAP of words, note: “…love for Jesus Christ our God…” however, there is NOTHING he refers to in the Bible to make this LEAP of words, rather, it is his writing, his opinion that does this!!!!! SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE HE GETS THIS AS CLEARLY AS HE STATED IT. Finally, by making such a LEAP-opinion, he contradicts what he states earlier in your quotes, and later, where he speaks of them the way the Bible speaks of them, separately, as the Son of God, while referring to the God and Father of Jesus, and again, nothing other than HIS own words, state this, as it is not clearly, simply and explicitly stated in the Bible!!!! Do you honestly NOT SEE THIS???

Now in your post 401 on page 21 of this thread you make mention of other things that I replied to however, I only refer to one here below as you quoted from a book that is NOT from the Bible when I reply to you as stating, “Lastly you quote, "Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2) and I first point out that this is NOT a book of the Bible; as it is NOT in your Bible!!!! Further, this plainly states we should imitate Jesus because “he is of his Father” thus showing they are not the same and again, nothing here shows that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!!

Now here we move onto Clement of Rome:

Which you quote as stating, “…the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ…” which speaks to them being separate, as it speaks of God giving the commandments, “through” his Son, and states nothing about Jesus being God or that God is Triune!!!!! I find it interesting that you went to a Catholic Pope for your reference!!!! Where is the Bible in all of this??????? It does not take a genius to figure out from here, how these teachings then were transferred to other religions of Christendom!!! (PLEASE READ Acts 20:25-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Now onto Shepard of Hermas:

You really go out of your way here to not use the Bible, which act, by itself, should serve to tell you and the readers of this post, something about your believing in MAN over Bible and not very good at that!!!!

You quote him as clearly referring to Jesus as “the Son of God” and also, “The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation” which supports what is in the Bible about Jesus being older than all His Father and God’s Creation and that Jesus was the “counselor” in God’s creation, however, NOTHING here states that Jesus is God, but rather clearly as being separate, and nothing states that God is Triune!!!!!

Again, did you read your own post BEFORE posting it as all you do, is continue to support my posts above!!!!! Thank you as you are going through a lot of trouble to support what I have represented all along, that the Bible does not state Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Justin Martyr;

NOTE: that it is Justin Martyr, who uses the word “Triune” and reply; that such a word is not in he Bible!!!!! The remainder of your quote of him, you will note, he is speaking and interpreting or putting his personal spin on, his view that “we worship and adore” referring to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but again, where are we told to do this in the Bible? Sir, it is NOT Justin Martr that tells me how to worship God, it is God, that does so clearly and simply in the Bible!!! This is continuing proof that you are relying and placing your faith on men’s teachings over the Bible!!!!!

Now onto your quote of Athenagoras, but first, your statement, “The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form: and reply, I here do not here speak to the view of the Oneness of Pentecostals, and in fact, nor I do so for the JW’s, as if you carefully read my posts, you will clearly see, that I am speaking as to Bible, and ONLY BIBLE, which for some reason you totally IGNORE in favor or humans!!!! I don’t!!!! Now as to JW’s and their literature, they have quoted these sources as I am doing here, by taking your word for accuracy (not in question, accepted) to make a point that nothing here, states that the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, and even for the couple or few times, we have found such a thing (Holy Scripture quoted above), it is NOT Bible that states this, but MAN!!!!!!

Here Athenagoras, states in part, “by whom the universe has been created through his logos” thus God created the universe “through” the logos, Christ, and this is what the Bible clearly states!!!! And also “Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son.” Both of these statements clearly speak of both of them, God and his Son Jesus, separately!!!!!! Nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!! I also find it interesting that he speaks of the “Holy Spirit” as an “effluence” of God, which means, as flowing or coming from God!!! Very Interesting!!!

Now here Athenagoras, states, “…God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" and note that here he actually speaks of “both their power” and not THREE; and also, this phrase, “God the Father, and of God the Son” is something (besides being a dyslectic thought with substitution) that is clearly not found in the Bible, but as you are clearly adept as demonstrating, comes from man, human teaching and sayings, THOUGH NOT BIBLE!!!!!!!! And nothing here speaks of Jesus Being God and or that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Irenaues: You quote him here as stating, "This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; and reply, did you note the very first sentence that states, “God the Father, not made” why this distinction? Because the Son of God was made, was begotten, generated etc. (that is what the Bible simply tells us) which is a term that can never be applied to God-EVER!!!! Wow, this is all simply part of the words of my previous posts!!!!

Now onto to Irenaeus: Here you refer to the quote from Irenaeus, as stating, speaking to the early church, “[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God” which speaks of them separately as “One” God, and also “One” Son of God (NOTE: Ephesians 4:5-6) Now after this, NOTE how the word or term, “incarnate” is introduced, which is another one of those words and or phrases like “God the Son” that clearly does not exist in the Bible, NOTE AGAIN any Bible, but instead that is man made!!!! If you don’t agree, then SHOW ME where in the Bible it states that Jesus is God incarnate? You will be unable to do this as this is a man made teaching, dogma, creed and theology of humans!!!!! IT IS NOT BIBLE!!!! You continue to prove, that you believe in, is what man has taught over, or verses what is plainly, simply and clearly stated in the Bible; and thus I and those like me MUST BE wrong for rejecting human thinking over what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states and teaches over HUMANS!!!! Sir, you have your priorities WRONG as this reply and your words are proving!!!!! You believe in man, and then attribute it to God! Well, good for you!!!!

Back to Irenaues: who states, according to you; “and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus” and note, that this too, regarding Jesus ascension into heaven “in the flesh”, is NOT Bible, but is man’s teachings and is contradicted by the Bible’s own words at 1 Corinthians 15:50, that clearly tell you that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” along with the previous verses in Corinthians mentioning the distinction between a “natural body” (or as some Bibles state it, “physical” body) and a “spiritual one.” Thus again, this is a human opinion, thinking, creed, dogma, theology that is NOT found in the Bible, as the Bible contradicts this!!!! The same holds true of this non Biblical statement of Irenaues, “, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father” that refers to Jesus as God, while at the same time continuing to discuss the Father, separately!!!! You will easily note that nothing in these quotes demonstrates-that Jesus is God, and or that God is Triune FROM THE BIBLE, but yes, it does, from MAN!!!!!! This is the distinction!!!! You have to see that, even if you don’t agree with me, and believe in this doctrine!!!! It is man stating this and NOT God!!!!

Now, in case for you forgot, it was directly after my replying to similarliy as above, where your writings clearly PROVE that all you do is go out of your way to AVOID THE BIBLE and attempt to establish your beliefs by NON BIBLE writings, that you then chose to ATTACK the credibility of what God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures that we as humans refer to universally as “The Bible” and then after that was shown to be a sham, you go back to the same thing, that of AVOIDING THE USE OF THE BIBLE to instead refer to writings outside the Bible to prove your pagan beliefs that “God is Triune” and or that “Jesus is God” when again it is NOT the ISSUE!!!!

In closing, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!


Please respect my request as I would do yours, and keep to the theme of “TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY” or kindly please refrain from posting!!!! Feel free to do you off the topic post replies on the “Trinity” thread!

Thank you in advance for your kind anticipated cooperation to my request!

TP

P.S. Why don't you open a thread about proof of the "Trinity" as found in the writings of the "Apostolic Father" just make sure you disclose that this term does not include the Apostles and or any of the inspired writers of the Bible in order to avoid confusing your readers!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Sorry Charlie! I simply posted the truth, again. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity was well established during the first century.

[praetorian]

Sorry Charlie! I simply posted the truth, again. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity was well established during the first century.

TATM:

Mr. (Rev) Sandy Bryant:

While I know this may be difficult for you to understand and that you have little regard and respect as to what should be expected from a so-called “Christian” “Reverend”, you should really, really try and understand and respect the “THEME” of this post, which has to do with the “Trinity as proven in the Bible Only” which means that all of your posts thus far do not apply as you are clearly GOING OUTSIDE THE BIBLE which does not address the post!

There is no doubt that you are indeed correct that “The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity was well established” however this statement is both incomplete and incorrect as to timing and HISTORY NOT I, Sir, as it is HISTORY that is against you so stop trying to Kill the Messenger!!!!! History not I establishes that there were many “Holy Trinities” well BEFORE the first century, but NONE OF THOSE WERE CHRISTIAN, and also, when speaking to Christendom this was established around 313 CE onward as Christianity was not made a legal, or recognized entity until about 380 CE!!!! Also, I have already provided you with well known sources in the form of encyclopedias and others that clearly state that he “First Century Christians” did not believe in the Trinity and first and more importantly, THIS DOCTRINE IS NOT EXPLICITY STATED IN THE BIBLE!!!!

Therefore, please stop wasting time and space, as nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

Get a life! Oh I forgot you have one, just a delusional one that you and your parishioners live in!!! Don’t forget to pack for that comet trip!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

[praetorian]

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

TATM:

Your post here, above, number 787, is a total disregard for this board as you are waiting space by repeating matters that have already been addressed and I note, I will respond, because not doing so, may allow you and those like you to think that you have actually replied to the issue at hand (the Trinity NOT explicitly stated in the Bible) when you clearly have not!!!! Separate to this you insult yourself, for doing so, when anyone reading this thread can easily know the accuracy of what I represent in this paragraph!!!!

You keep insisting on IGNORING the POINT and that is, nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

The POINT: The responses I provide are from the Bible and I don’t know how many other times or ways in English, that I can express that I am speaking from the standpoint of the Bible and not outsides sources (The “Apostolic Fathers”, that is NOT to be confused with the Apostles and or any of the inspired writers of the Bible) as opposed to the Bible itself, which you keep referring to, but THAT IS NOT BIBLE!!!!

With that said, I will waste more time to respond however, note that you make mention of these same things below, via repetition (though less this time) as you do with your post as found on page 21 of this thread, post number 401 dated 2-14-09 so that others can see that what you do here is nothing new! Also, I replied to your post 401 (which was supposed to have a follow up PART 2, that was never written nor is this one either as this is a partial repeat of your post) under it as post number 407, dated 2-16-09!

Now onto your post above number 787 dated 3.26.09, and note, it is VERY TELLING!!!!!!! Let us see if you even get this. In effect, you are going to MAN-HUMANS-NOTE-NOT BIBLE to establish what you believe! GET IT!!! MAN NOT BIBLE!!!!

NOTE: I hope you can get this point: You obviously went to HUMANS FOR SUPPORT FOR YOUR BELIEFS, which is the WRONG way to get these answers; and despite this, I will address your HUMANS below, while NEVER forgetting that we are supposed to be using God’s word the Bible to settling things!!!!

I take for granted that you “appear” to accurately quote "Polycarp (as I did not do the research for accuracy, for this reply) who himself stated, according to you, “believing in him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ”; therefore, this raises the question; who is this one that raised Jesus from the Dead? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! It does not state here, that Jesus is God or that God is a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! (YOU CAN”T, therego why you are doing this) He also stated, according to you, that Jesus is on a “throne at his right hand” so, at whose right hand is Jesus sitting, “It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! NOTE: Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! He also stated, according to you, that that all things were “subjected” to him, so, who decided to, and “subjected” all things to Jesus? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not that Jesus did this to Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! Also, who is it that will hold the “blood” of ones “responsible” note; it is the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

So far, everything you quoted from Polycarp is indeed found in scripture while nothing in scripture referred to here, or stated, tells you clearly that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!

Note, according to you, Polycarp’s other words: that he praises someone, “through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son” therefore, to whom is Polycarp addressing himself, it cannot be Jesus as this words do not do that? It was to the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

Right after quoting the same exact information about Polycarp in your post 401 (on page 21 of this thread) you state, "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ”; please note how these words do nothing to establish your man made based beliefs, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as this clearly speaks of what is found in scripture, that Jesus has a God and Father, and that Jesus is a High Priest”; therefore, to whom is Jesus serving as High Priest to, and for whom, if your theory of man made beliefs, tells you that Jesus is God and that God is Triune, which by the way, nothing in the words of Polycarp quoted so far indicate this!!!! Thus Jesus is serving as High Priest according to your thinking, to himself and or part of himself! This is NOT BIBLICAL!!!!! So, my question is: Did you read what you posted? Do you see, or can you tell me where in the words you quoted so far, you find the point that supports your belief in man made theology, creeds and dogma; where it that it states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune as so far, we have them spoken of here as separate!!!!!!!

Now, let us discuss the quotes you refer to as coming from Ignatius:

I note that another quote from you states of him, “having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time” and point out that his own statement speaks of Jesus Christ (obviously speaking to his pre-human existence that the Bible clearly mentions) that “was with the Father” speaking of them separately, as again, nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!

You then quote him as stating, “might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him” thus according to these words (again not Bible but his words) that one is to be “fully convinced” that there is “ONE GOD” who “revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son” again, speaking of them separately as NOTHING in these words state, that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!! NOTHING!!!! Note, that to that, he is quoted as stating, “in every respect pleased him” so, who is being spoken of here, Jesus, was Jesus pleasing Jesus? Don’t be ridiculous, he was pleasing his God and Father, and that totally make’s sense!!!!! However, NOTHING here speaks to Jesus being God or that God is Triune, NOTHING!!!!!

You state, “Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles” and this is NOT at issue, what is at issue is whether or not the Bible teaches, or expresses, simply, clearly and plainly that Jesus is God and whether or not God is Triune, WHICH IT DOES NOT AND THAT YOU ARE IN EFFECT STATING, BY NOT DEALING WITH IT, IGNORING IT!!!!!

Note your further quote here, “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son” note now they are spoken of differently, “Father” AND “Jesus” and again nothing here states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!! Now here, Ignatius, makes a LEAP of words, note: “…love for Jesus Christ our God…” however, there is NOTHING he refers to in the Bible to make this LEAP of words, rather, it is his writing, his opinion that does this!!!!! SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE HE GETS THIS AS CLEARLY AS HE STATED IT. Finally, by making such a LEAP-opinion, he contradicts what he states earlier in your quotes, and later, where he speaks of them the way the Bible speaks of them, separately, as the Son of God, while referring to the God and Father of Jesus, and again, nothing other than HIS own words, state this, as it is not clearly, simply and explicitly stated in the Bible!!!! Do you honestly NOT SEE THIS???

Now in your post 401 on page 21 of this thread you make mention of other things that I replied to however, I only refer to one here below as you quoted from a book that is NOT from the Bible when I reply to you as stating, “Lastly you quote, "Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2) and I first point out that this is NOT a book of the Bible; as it is NOT in your Bible!!!! Further, this plainly states we should imitate Jesus because “he is of his Father” thus showing they are not the same and again, nothing here shows that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!!

Now here we move onto Clement of Rome:

Which you quote as stating, “…the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ…” which speaks to them being separate, as it speaks of God giving the commandments, “through” his Son, and states nothing about Jesus being God or that God is Triune!!!!! I find it interesting that you went to a Catholic Pope for your reference!!!! Where is the Bible in all of this??????? It does not take a genius to figure out from here, how these teachings then were transferred to other religions of Christendom!!! (PLEASE READ Acts 20:25-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Now onto Shepard of Hermas:

You really go out of your way here to not use the Bible, which act, by itself, should serve to tell you and the readers of this post, something about your believing in MAN over Bible and not very good at that!!!!

You quote him as clearly referring to Jesus as “the Son of God” and also, “The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation” which supports what is in the Bible about Jesus being older than all His Father and God’s Creation and that Jesus was the “counselor” in God’s creation, however, NOTHING here states that Jesus is God, but rather clearly as being separate, and nothing states that God is Triune!!!!!

Again, did you read your own post BEFORE posting it as all you do, is continue to support my posts above!!!!! Thank you as you are going through a lot of trouble to support what I have represented all along, that the Bible does not state Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Justin Martyr;

NOTE: that it is Justin Martyr, who uses the word “Triune” and reply; that such a word is not in he Bible!!!!! The remainder of your quote of him, you will note, he is speaking and interpreting or putting his personal spin on, his view that “we worship and adore” referring to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but again, where are we told to do this in the Bible? Sir, it is NOT Justin Martr that tells me how to worship God, it is God, that does so clearly and simply in the Bible!!! This is continuing proof that you are relying and placing your faith on men’s teachings over the Bible!!!!!

Now onto your quote of Athenagoras, but first, your statement, “The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form: and reply, I here do not here speak to the view of the Oneness of Pentecostals, and in fact, nor I do so for the JW’s, as if you carefully read my posts, you will clearly see, that I am speaking as to Bible, and ONLY BIBLE, which for some reason you totally IGNORE in favor or humans!!!! I don’t!!!! Now as to JW’s and their literature, they have quoted these sources as I am doing here, by taking your word for accuracy (not in question, accepted) to make a point that nothing here, states that the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, and even for the couple or few times, we have found such a thing (Holy Scripture quoted above), it is NOT Bible that states this, but MAN!!!!!!

Here Athenagoras, states in part, “by whom the universe has been created through his logos” thus God created the universe “through” the logos, Christ, and this is what the Bible clearly states!!!! And also “Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son.” Both of these statements clearly speak of both of them, God and his Son Jesus, separately!!!!!! Nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!! I also find it interesting that he speaks of the “Holy Spirit” as an “effluence” of God, which means, as flowing or coming from God!!! Very Interesting!!!

Now here Athenagoras, states, “…God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" and note that here he actually speaks of “both their power” and not THREE; and also, this phrase, “God the Father, and of God the Son” is something (besides being a dyslectic thought with substitution) that is clearly not found in the Bible, but as you are clearly adept as demonstrating, comes from man, human teaching and sayings, THOUGH NOT BIBLE!!!!!!!! And nothing here speaks of Jesus Being God and or that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Irenaues: You quote him here as stating, "This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; and reply, did you note the very first sentence that states, “God the Father, not made” why this distinction? Because the Son of God was made, was begotten, generated etc. (that is what the Bible simply tells us) which is a term that can never be applied to God-EVER!!!! Wow, this is all simply part of the words of my previous posts!!!!

Now onto to Irenaeus: Here you refer to the quote from Irenaeus, as stating, speaking to the early church, “[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God” which speaks of them separately as “One” God, and also “One” Son of God (NOTE: Ephesians 4:5-6) Now after this, NOTE how the word or term, “incarnate” is introduced, which is another one of those words and or phrases like “God the Son” that clearly does not exist in the Bible, NOTE AGAIN any Bible, but instead that is man made!!!! If you don’t agree, then SHOW ME where in the Bible it states that Jesus is God incarnate? You will be unable to do this as this is a man made teaching, dogma, creed and theology of humans!!!!! IT IS NOT BIBLE!!!! You continue to prove, that you believe in, is what man has taught over, or verses what is plainly, simply and clearly stated in the Bible; and thus I and those like me MUST BE wrong for rejecting human thinking over what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states and teaches over HUMANS!!!! Sir, you have your priorities WRONG as this reply and your words are proving!!!!! You believe in man, and then attribute it to God! Well, good for you!!!!

Back to Irenaues: who states, according to you; “and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus” and note, that this too, regarding Jesus ascension into heaven “in the flesh”, is NOT Bible, but is man’s teachings and is contradicted by the Bible’s own words at 1 Corinthians 15:50, that clearly tell you that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” along with the previous verses in Corinthians mentioning the distinction between a “natural body” (or as some Bibles state it, “physical” body) and a “spiritual one.” Thus again, this is a human opinion, thinking, creed, dogma, theology that is NOT found in the Bible, as the Bible contradicts this!!!! The same holds true of this non Biblical statement of Irenaues, “, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father” that refers to Jesus as God, while at the same time continuing to discuss the Father, separately!!!! You will easily note that nothing in these quotes demonstrates-that Jesus is God, and or that God is Triune FROM THE BIBLE, but yes, it does, from MAN!!!!!! This is the distinction!!!! You have to see that, even if you don’t agree with me, and believe in this doctrine!!!! It is man stating this and NOT God!!!!

Now, in case for you forgot, it was directly after my replying to similarliy as above, where your writings clearly PROVE that all you do is go out of your way to AVOID THE BIBLE and attempt to establish your beliefs by NON BIBLE writings, that you then chose to ATTACK the credibility of what God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures that we as humans refer to universally as “The Bible” and then after that was shown to be a sham, you go back to the same thing, that of AVOIDING THE USE OF THE BIBLE to instead refer to writings outside the Bible to prove your pagan beliefs that “God is Triune” and or that “Jesus is God” when again it is NOT the ISSUE!!!!

In closing, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[praetorian]

I am asking for the same respect I provide you. If you opened a thread on the science of thermodynamics or the Bible subject of Moses and the miracles it would be rude of me to post something OUTSIDE the-your thread, as it would NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, LET ALONE BE RUDE!!!!

What you post above has nothing to do with the theme of this thread, which is ‘TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY!!!!!!!

Now, note, that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

[praetorian]

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

TATM AKA, Reverend Sandy Bryant:

There MUST be some sort of mental disconnect with you and or you are doing this on purpose as you are not addressing the Theme of this post, and are wasting valuable space on this baoard! You simply have no respect for anyone let alone this board on which you post. TATM do you honestly think that readers of this post, even if they vehemently disagree with me, WILL NOT SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING?

All you are doing is repeating what you did above in your post 4 and my reply here to you below is as mine above in post 7. With that said, I will waste more time to respond however, note that you make mention of these same things below, via repetition (though less this time) as you do with your post as found on page 21 of the “Trinity” thread originally posted by “Truth_Child”, under post number 401 dated 2-14-09 so that others can see that what you do here is nothing new! Also, I replied to your post 401 (which was supposed to have a follow up PART 2, that was never written nor is this one either as this is a partial repeat of your post) under it as post number 407, dated 2-16-09!

I am asking for the same respect I provide you. If you opened a thread on the science of thermodynamics or the Bible subject of Moses and the miracles I would be rude of me to post something OUTSIDE this thread, as it would NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, LET ALONE BE RUDE!!!!

What you post above has nothing to do with the theme of this thread, which is ‘TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY!!!!!!!

Now, note, that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

Your post here, above, is exactly as your post number 787 on the “Trinity” thread which I just replied to again today, for the second time, and is a total disregard for this board as you are waiting space by repeating matters that have already been addressed and I note, I will respond, because not doing so, may allow you and those like you to think that you have actually replied to the issue at hand (the Trinity NOT explicitly stated in the Bible) when you clearly have not!!!! Separate to this you insult yourself, for doing so, when anyone reading this thread can easily know the accuracy of what I represent in this paragraph!!!!

You keep insisting on IGNORING the POINT and that is, nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

The POINT: The responses I provide are from the Bible and I don’t know how many other times or ways in English, that I can express that I am speaking from the standpoint of the Bible and not outsides sources (The “Apostolic Fathers”, that is NOT to be confused with the Apostles and or any of the inspired writers of the Bible) as opposed to the Bible itself, which you keep referring to, but THAT IS NOT BIBLE!!!!

With that said, I will waste more time to respond however, note that you make mention of these same things below, via repetition (though less this time) as you do with your post as found on page 21 of this thread, post number 401 dated 2-14-09 so that others can see that what you do here is nothing new! Also, I replied to your post 401 (which was supposed to have a follow up PART 2, that was never written nor is this one either as this is a partial repeat of your post) under it as post number 407, dated 2-16-09!

Now onto your post above number 787 dated 3.26.09, and note, it is VERY TELLING!!!!!!! Let us see if you even get this. In effect, you are going to MAN-HUMANS-NOTE-NOT BIBLE to establish what you believe! GET IT!!! MAN NOT BIBLE!!!!

NOTE: I hope you can get this point: You obviously went to HUMANS FOR SUPPORT FOR YOUR BELIEFS, which is the WRONG way to get these answers; and despite this, I will address your HUMANS below, while NEVER forgetting that we are supposed to be using God’s word the Bible to settling things!!!!

I take for granted that you “appear” to accurately quote "Polycarp (as I did not do the research for accuracy, for this reply) who himself stated, according to you, “believing in him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ”; therefore, this raises the question; who is this one that raised Jesus from the Dead? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! It does not state here, that Jesus is God or that God is a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! (YOU CAN”T, therego why you are doing this) He also stated, according to you, that Jesus is on a “throne at his right hand” so, at whose right hand is Jesus sitting, “It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! NOTE: Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! He also stated, according to you, that that all things were “subjected” to him, so, who decided to, and “subjected” all things to Jesus? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not that Jesus did this to Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! Also, who is it that will hold the “blood” of ones “responsible” note; it is the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

So far, everything you quoted from Polycarp is indeed found in scripture while nothing in scripture referred to here, or stated, tells you clearly that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!

Note, according to you, Polycarp’s other words: that he praises someone, “through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son” therefore, to whom is Polycarp addressing himself, it cannot be Jesus as this words do not do that? It was to the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

Right after quoting the same exact information about Polycarp in your post 401 (on page 21 of this thread) you state, "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ”; please note how these words do nothing to establish your man made based beliefs, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as this clearly speaks of what is found in scripture, that Jesus has a God and Father, and that Jesus is a High Priest”; therefore, to whom is Jesus serving as High Priest to, and for whom, if your theory of man made beliefs, tells you that Jesus is God and that God is Triune, which by the way, nothing in the words of Polycarp quoted so far indicate this!!!! Thus Jesus is serving as High Priest according to your thinking, to himself and or part of himself! This is NOT BIBLICAL!!!!! So, my question is: Did you read what you posted? Do you see, or can you tell me where in the words you quoted so far, you find the point that supports your belief in man made theology, creeds and dogma; where it that it states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune as so far, we have them spoken of here as separate!!!!!!!

Now, let us discuss the quotes you refer to as coming from Ignatius:

I note that another quote from you states of him, “having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time” and point out that his own statement speaks of Jesus Christ (obviously speaking to his pre-human existence that the Bible clearly mentions) that “was with the Father” speaking of them separately, as again, nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!

You then quote him as stating, “might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him” thus according to these words (again not Bible but his words) that one is to be “fully convinced” that there is “ONE GOD” who “revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son” again, speaking of them separately as NOTHING in these words state, that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!! NOTHING!!!! Note, that to that, he is quoted as stating, “in every respect pleased him” so, who is being spoken of here, Jesus, was Jesus pleasing Jesus? Don’t be ridiculous, he was pleasing his God and Father, and that totally make’s sense!!!!! However, NOTHING here speaks to Jesus being God or that God is Triune, NOTHING!!!!!

You state, “Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles” and this is NOT at issue, what is at issue is whether or not the Bible teaches, or expresses, simply, clearly and plainly that Jesus is God and whether or not God is Triune, WHICH IT DOES NOT AND THAT YOU ARE IN EFFECT STATING, BY NOT DEALING WITH IT, IGNORING IT!!!!!

Note your further quote here, “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son” note now they are spoken of differently, “Father” AND “Jesus” and again nothing here states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!! Now here, Ignatius, makes a LEAP of words, note: “…love for Jesus Christ our God…” however, there is NOTHING he refers to in the Bible to make this LEAP of words, rather, it is his writing, his opinion that does this!!!!! SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE HE GETS THIS AS CLEARLY AS HE STATED IT. Finally, by making such a LEAP-opinion, he contradicts what he states earlier in your quotes, and later, where he speaks of them the way the Bible speaks of them, separately, as the Son of God, while referring to the God and Father of Jesus, and again, nothing other than HIS own words, state this, as it is not clearly, simply and explicitly stated in the Bible!!!! Do you honestly NOT SEE THIS???

Now in your post 401 on page 21 of this thread you make mention of other things that I replied to however, I only refer to one here below as you quoted from a book that is NOT from the Bible when I reply to you as stating, “Lastly you quote, "Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2) and I first point out that this is NOT a book of the Bible; as it is NOT in your Bible!!!! Further, this plainly states we should imitate Jesus because “he is of his Father” thus showing they are not the same and again, nothing here shows that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!!

Now here we move onto Clement of Rome:

Which you quote as stating, “…the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ…” which speaks to them being separate, as it speaks of God giving the commandments, “through” his Son, and states nothing about Jesus being God or that God is Triune!!!!! I find it interesting that you went to a Catholic Pope for your reference!!!! Where is the Bible in all of this??????? It does not take a genius to figure out from here, how these teachings then were transferred to other religions of Christendom!!! (PLEASE READ Acts 20:25-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Now onto Shepard of Hermas:

You really go out of your way here to not use the Bible, which act, by itself, should serve to tell you and the readers of this post, something about your believing in MAN over Bible and not very good at that!!!!

You quote him as clearly referring to Jesus as “the Son of God” and also, “The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation” which supports what is in the Bible about Jesus being older than all His Father and God’s Creation and that Jesus was the “counselor” in God’s creation, however, NOTHING here states that Jesus is God, but rather clearly as being separate, and nothing states that God is Triune!!!!!

Again, did you read your own post BEFORE posting it as all you do, is continue to support my posts above!!!!! Thank you as you are going through a lot of trouble to support what I have represented all along, that the Bible does not state Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Justin Martyr;

NOTE: that it is Justin Martyr, who uses the word “Triune” and reply; that such a word is not in he Bible!!!!! The remainder of your quote of him, you will note, he is speaking and interpreting or putting his personal spin on, his view that “we worship and adore” referring to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but again, where are we told to do this in the Bible? Sir, it is NOT Justin Martr that tells me how to worship God, it is God, that does so clearly and simply in the Bible!!! This is continuing proof that you are relying and placing your faith on men’s teachings over the Bible!!!!!

Now onto your quote of Athenagoras, but first, your statement, “The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form: and reply, I here do not here speak to the view of the Oneness of Pentecostals, and in fact, nor I do so for the JW’s, as if you carefully read my posts, you will clearly see, that I am speaking as to Bible, and ONLY BIBLE, which for some reason you totally IGNORE in favor or humans!!!! I don’t!!!! Now as to JW’s and their literature, they have quoted these sources as I am doing here, by taking your word for accuracy (not in question, accepted) to make a point that nothing here, states that the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, and even for the couple or few times, we have found such a thing (Holy Scripture quoted above), it is NOT Bible that states this, but MAN!!!!!!

Here Athenagoras, states in part, “by whom the universe has been created through his logos” thus God created the universe “through” the logos, Christ, and this is what the Bible clearly states!!!! And also “Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son.” Both of these statements clearly speak of both of them, God and his Son Jesus, separately!!!!!! Nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!! I also find it interesting that he speaks of the “Holy Spirit” as an “effluence” of God, which means, as flowing or coming from God!!! Very Interesting!!!

Now here Athenagoras, states, “…God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" and note that here he actually speaks of “both their power” and not THREE; and also, this phrase, “God the Father, and of God the Son” is something (besides being a dyslectic thought with substitution) that is clearly not found in the Bible, but as you are clearly adept as demonstrating, comes from man, human teaching and sayings, THOUGH NOT BIBLE!!!!!!!! And nothing here speaks of Jesus Being God and or that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Irenaues: You quote him here as stating, "This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; and reply, did you note the very first sentence that states, “God the Father, not made” why this distinction? Because the Son of God was made, was begotten, generated etc. (that is what the Bible simply tells us) which is a term that can never be applied to God-EVER!!!! Wow, this is all simply part of the words of my previous posts!!!!

Now onto to Irenaeus: Here you refer to the quote from Irenaeus, as stating, speaking to the early church, “[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God” which speaks of them separately as “One” God, and also “One” Son of God (NOTE: Ephesians 4:5-6) Now after this, NOTE how the word or term, “incarnate” is introduced, which is another one of those words and or phrases like “God the Son” that clearly does not exist in the Bible, NOTE AGAIN any Bible, but instead that is man made!!!! If you don’t agree, then SHOW ME where in the Bible it states that Jesus is God incarnate? You will be unable to do this as this is a man made teaching, dogma, creed and theology of humans!!!!! IT IS NOT BIBLE!!!! You continue to prove, that you believe in, is what man has taught over, or verses what is plainly, simply and clearly stated in the Bible; and thus I and those like me MUST BE wrong for rejecting human thinking over what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states and teaches over HUMANS!!!! Sir, you have your priorities WRONG as this reply and your words are proving!!!!! You believe in man, and then attribute it to God! Well, good for you!!!!

Back to Irenaues: who states, according to you; “and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus” and note, that this too, regarding Jesus ascension into heaven “in the flesh”, is NOT Bible, but is man’s teachings and is contradicted by the Bible’s own words at 1 Corinthians 15:50, that clearly tell you that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” along with the previous verses in Corinthians mentioning the distinction between a “natural body” (or as some Bibles state it, “physical” body) and a “spiritual one.” Thus again, this is a human opinion, thinking, creed, dogma, theology that is NOT found in the Bible, as the Bible contradicts this!!!! The same holds true of this non Biblical statement of Irenaues, “, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father” that refers to Jesus as God, while at the same time continuing to discuss the Father, separately!!!! You will easily note that nothing in these quotes demonstrates-that Jesus is God, and or that God is Triune FROM THE BIBLE, but yes, it does, from MAN!!!!!! This is the distinction!!!! You have to see that, even if you don’t agree with me, and believe in this doctrine!!!! It is man stating this and NOT God!!!!

Now, in case for you forgot, it was directly after my replying to similarliy as above, where your writings clearly PROVE that all you do is go out of your way to AVOID THE BIBLE and attempt to establish your beliefs by NON BIBLE writings, that you then chose to ATTACK the credibility of what God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures that we as humans refer to universally as “The Bible” and then after that was shown to be a sham, you go back to the same thing, that of AVOIDING THE USE OF THE BIBLE to instead refer to writings outside the Bible to prove your pagan beliefs that “God is Triune” and or that “Jesus is God” when again it is NOT the ISSUE!!!!

In closing, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!


Please respect my request as I would do yours, and keep to the theme of “TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY” or kindly please refrain from posting!!!! Feel free to do you off the topic post replies on the “Trinity” thread!

Thank you in advance for your kind anticipated cooperation to my request!

TP

P.S. Why don't you open a thread about proof of the "Trinity" as found in the writings of the "Apostolic Father" just make sure you disclose that this term does not include the Apostles and or any of the inspired writers of the Bible in order to avoid confusing your readers!

[praetorian]

TATM:

Mr. (Rev) Sandy Bryant:

While I know this may be difficult for you to understand and that you have little regard and respect as to what should be expected from a so-called “Christian” “Reverend”, you should really, really try and understand and respect the “THEME” of this post, which has to do with the “Trinity as proven in the Bible Only” which means that all of your posts thus far do not apply as you are clearly GOING OUTSIDE THE BIBLE which does not address the post!

There is no doubt that you are indeed correct that “The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity was well established” however this statement is both incomplete and incorrect as to timing and HISTORY NOT I, Sir, as it is HISTORY that is against you so stop trying to Kill the Messenger!!!!! History not I establishes that there were many “Holy Trinities” well BEFORE the first century, but NONE OF THOSE WERE CHRISTIAN, and also, when speaking to Christendom this was established around 313 CE onward as Christianity was not made a legal, or recognized entity until about 380 CE!!!! Also, I have already provided you with well known sources in the form of encyclopedias and others that clearly state that he “First Century Christians” did not believe in the Trinity and first and more importantly, THIS DOCTRINE IS NOT EXPLICITY STATED IN THE BIBLE!!!!

Therefore, please stop wasting time and space, as nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

Get a life! Oh I forgot you have one, just a delusional one that you and your parishioners live in!!! Don’t forget to pack for that comet trip!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Dogma: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets *pedagogical dogma* c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.

Come, name one single Christian, association, congregation or organization that agrees with your religion's lunacy.

[praetorian]

Dogma: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets *pedagogical dogma* c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.

Come, name one single Christian, association, congregation or organization that agrees with your religion's lunacy.

TATM:

I agree with what you state here with commentary. While I agree with the definition of “dogma” here, “dogma” itself has come to mean and represent certain established patterns of thinking, that I and or my faith do not agree with, and add, that our doing so is not arbitrary nor capricious, just to be difficult, but rather our “established opinion” holds strictly and solely to the Bible for it’s beliefs (dogma as “established opinion” based solely on the Bible) rather than the usual and customary ways of “dogma” where other sources outside the Bible dictate what those beliefs should be.

As to your last statement I reply that if I were to name a “single Christian, association, congregation or organization that agrees with” my “religions” views (“lunacy) then they would be JW’s as if they don’t they won’t! I add further what I have stated here ad nauseam to this matter, that if you are using this as some sort of a ‘divining rod’ in order to establish who is telling the ‘truth’ about God or not, (meaning worshipping the God and Father of Jesus Christ in the manner he demands of us) then you method (divining rod) is not valid as God’s people have always been in the minority (Jews and Christians) and have been always been considered “lunatics” from the standpoint of others or rather the majority! Note what Jesus relatives thought (as the people did also) about Jesus at Mark 3: 20-21.

In this, you and I have diametrically opposed opinions and in this, it is more than OK to agree to disagree!

In conclusion, nothing you state here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[praetorian]

Please allow others the time to post their views on whether they believe this doctrine of the Trinity is found in the Bible and where and why? You are trolling and adding nothing to this THEME other than you don't agree with me!!!

I close by stating, that nothing you state here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

God’s people have always been in the minority

I agree fully for we are. Yet we all agree. There is no division . . . for the house divided cannot stand . . . in Christianity. Now, come, address my question.

[praetorian]

I agree fully for we are. Yet we all agree. There is no division . . . for the house divided cannot stand . . . in Christianity. Now, come, address my question.

TATM:

I am glad we agree on something, as something is indeed better than nothing, LOL, however I am not exactly sure what you mean when you express, “Yet we all agree. There is no division…for the house divided cannot stand….in Christianity” as Christendom is so extremely divided!!! Now as to your question, “Now, come, address my question” I am not sure what you mean as I have addressed all of your questions, so the real issue is that you do not agree with and or accept my replies! TATM a reply is a reply, and whether you accept and or agree with it, that is another matter and that is where we are, therego the reason for my stating, that we can ‘agree to disagree.’

Now, if you wish to explore anything outside of the theme of this thread, I ask that you please respect the theme of “Trinity as proven in the Bible only” as anything else is trolling and simply inappropriate as I started this thread for the purpose of attracting people to engage in meaningful dialogues on this subject as it pertains solely in the Bible! So, please allow others the time to post their views on whether they believe this doctrine of the Trinity is found in the Bible and where and why?

Again, you are trolling and adding nothing to this THEME other than you don't agree with me!!!

As to other questions you wish to pursue, may I suggest that we do so under the JW thread and or other thread for this purpose and again, please know that I will indeed reply to any and all of your queries, however, please do not expect us to agree as again that is another matter entirely!

In the end, I close by stating, that nothing you state here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Christianity is not divided. God addressed the question of your religion in Deuteronomy 18. God said your prophet is a liar. Period end of question.

[praetorian]

Christianity is not divided. God addressed the question of your religion in Deuteronomy 18. God said your prophet is a liar. Period end of question.

Christianity is quite divided and you are not being realistic let alone honest! It is the Bible and the religion of the Bible that is NOT divided!

When you state, that “God addressed the question of your religion in Deuteronomy 18. God said your prophet is a liar.” I am not sure what you mean as Deuteronomy 18 speaks of the Messiah as coming not God and also those who practice divination and cause their children to be passed through the fire (like you do in Hell Fire) but this is not speaking about us! You are also trolling here, and I am giving you a courtesty reply here as you are Not speaking with reference to the theme of this thread at all!!!!

In the end, I close by stating, that nothing you state here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21,22 (KJV)

[praetorian]

And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21,22 (KJV)

TATM:

I am more than happy as always to address any of your queries, however and again, this, your post and scripture quote, (question-position) supposition has nothing to do with the theme of this thread which is TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY. This in effect means you are trolling! With that said, I address your post below.

I am not sure why you are quoting the scriptures found at Deuteronomy 18:21, 22, as it clearly applies to those who claimed they were either “prophets” or “prophesied” in the name of God (meaning YHWH or in English Jehovah) though I can easily “guess” at what you are inferring as many inappropriately apply this to JW’s! I nor the JW’s have ever claimed to be inspired and therefore be a “prophet” today in sense of "foretelling" things-events, as the Jews did back then!

What I and the JW’s have done (and we and they are not alone in this) is simply repeat, parrot the Bible’s words and also Jesus words regarding the “end times”, “end of the world” or “end of this system of things”. This was something asked of Jesus by his disciples in Matthew 24: 3, where Jesus goes on from there to address their composite question in the remaining chapter of 24 and all of 25! Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:32, 33 that his disciples would be able to tell when these things would occur! (See also 1 Thessalonians 5: 1-5, with emphasis on 4).

Now it is in the JW’s sincere and ardent fever to tell people about this (Matthew 24:14, and 28: 19, 20) that many many lies and distortions have been said and repeated!

Therefore and again, I am not sure why you posted this as it has no application to JW’s and in fact to any Christian organization today, as no one today can be an actual inspired “prophet” of God (fortelling the future) today as the last one to be a prophet like this, was the Messiah who turned out to be God’s own special and first born (generated meaning made, created) Son (Hebrew 1:1,2).

If you feel I did not address your question (as I had to guess at what you insinuated) and or you want a specific point addressed that I did not address, please feel free to point the same out in order for me to do so, and do not ASSUME I purposely did not address it, as again your post is vague and I had to guess at what I believe your query was/is.

I conclude by stating, that what you post here has nothing to do with the theme of this post making what you are doing, trolling and state; Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

How hilarious!!!!! Now, come, try telling the truth.

[praetorian]

How hilarious!!!!! Now, come, try telling the truth.

TATM:

I do not take kindly to be called a liar! I gave you my reply a truthful reply; it is not my problem that you choose to believe in unsubstantiated lies!!! You are grossly misinformed and choose to stay ignorant, and despite that we at best agree to disagree! When point a finger by calling someone a liar, please do not forget that there are “three” fingers pointed at you; How delightfully apropos!!!!

As always TATM, I am more than happy as always to address any of your queries; however your post has nothing to do with the theme of this thread which is TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY. This in effect means you are trolling! With that said, I address your post below.

I conclude by stating, that what you post here has nothing to do with the theme of this post making what you are doing, trolling and state; Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[praetorian]

TATM:

If you do not stop abusing the theme of this thread I will report you to the ADMIN for trolling violations, that are more than amply established here in this thread!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Peradventure, do you really think anyone reading this thread will know the truth?

[praetorian]

Peradventure, do you really think anyone reading this thread will know the truth?

TATM:

Yes TATM I do, as your comment if filled with hubris and presumption as it all of your unsubstantiated and poor opinionated posts that only serve insult everyone who reads this!

As always TATM, I am more than happy as always to address any of your queries; however your post has nothing to do with the theme of this thread which is TRINITY AS PROVEN IN THE BIBLE ONLY. This in effect means you are trolling! With that said, I address your post below.

I conclude by stating, that what you post here has nothing to do with the theme of this post making what you are doing, trolling and state; Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

R i i i ght!

[praetorian]

To the Thread:

Some time ago, (I believe it is found page 22/23 of this thread) I posted information on John 1:1, that contained a reference webpage, however, they recently changed their archive system, thereby causing a change to the reference webpage, so take this opportunity to repeat the information on John 1:1, by way of an updated reference for this thread.

With regards to John 1:1, (the crux of the matter) and the remaining 2-5, I take the following verses from the NIV Bible, as found on www.biblegateway.com; (For the footnotes please look it up on this site or in the NIV itself) in order to examine it more closely below;

“1In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.”

First and foremost, at first glance and at best, these verses, (especially verse 1) if taken as expressed here above, would mean that God and Jesus are the same exact person-being, or spirit creature, however, this verse does NOT support a Trinity as one needs three to support this and not two, as it does here! Second, if this were the only manner, this verse was rendered in all Bibles, then, at best, one would have a duo-ity, or duality but not a Trinity.

Please take a note of the following English Bibles and how they translate John 1:1 or 1-3. Also take note that this is taken from the following WebPages in order for you to verify and validate this for yourself;

http://tyndalearchive.com/scriptures/index.htm

[Main Webpage: http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Doorway.htm]

1. (TEV) The Abbreviated Bible TEV-1971

"The Word existed with God from the beginning, and all things were created through him."

2. (IV) Authorized Version by Joseph Smith (1867)

“In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.”

3. (MNT) Moffatt New Translation (1922) George H. Doran Company (1922)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God,
the Logos was divine.”

4. (NEB) New English Bible. (1970)

“When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.”

5. (SGAT) An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed (1931) University of Chicago Press (1931

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be.”

6. (WET) Wuest Expanded Translation (1961) Eerdmans (1961)

“In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father. All things through His intermediate agency came into being, and without Him there came into being not even one thing which has come into existence.”

7. The Authentic New Testament (1958) New American Library (1958) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

8. (BNT) Barclay New Testament (1969). "Collins (vol. 1 in 1968; vol. 2 in 1969)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.”

9. (CNT) Cassier New Testament (1989) William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“It was the Word that was at the very beginning; and the Word was by the side of God, and the Word was the very same as God.”

10. (ISV) International Standard (1998) Davidson Press (1998)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made”

11. (ONT) The Original New Testament (1985) Harper and Row (1985)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“'In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

12. The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1997) AFI International Publishers (1997) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55: 11; BERE**** 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim!”

13. (PRNT) The Restored New Testament 1914 John M. Pryse / John M. Watkins (1925) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“The divine Thought inhered in the primordial Element, And proximate to the Unmanifested God was this divine Thought; And verily the divine Thought was the secondary God”

14. (REB) Revised English Bible (1989) Oxford and Cambridge Universities Presses (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was.”

15. (SV) Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) (1993) Macmillan (1993)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was.”

16. (TEV) Today’s English Version (1976) [The Good News Bible] (@) United Bible Societies (1976) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God.”

17. (UNT) The Unvarnished New Testament (1991) Phanes Press (1991) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was what the Word was.”

End of English Bible references and revised webpage information.

TonyP