Stand and Deliver

[aviyah]

Stage Director,

You have stated that it's in all the local papers in Arkansas that Pastor Murray is being pursued by the law for fraud.

I will oblige you on this wild goose chase. But first you must site one newspaper which you are referring to. I have done a search of newspapers in Arkansas and found no such information.

This is your mission right? So put up or shut up. Indulge us all with the opportunity to read these alleged articles and make an informed decision.

God Bless, AviYAH

[smyrna]

Nice try, Aviyah. S_D will probably either avoid this thread like the plague, or deliberately try to throw it off topic.

And as you know, that is not the only allegations she has yet to provide evidence for.

It's outstanding though, that she is doing this.

Because it's just affirmation of what we already know:

The detractors will try anything, including lying, to try and discredit the Chapel.

They destroy their own credibility, which is exactly what we like to see.

[stage_director]

Now, let me see, Smyrna ... everything I've said has been proved true. Murray is the current head of the racist organization Soldiers of the Cross, according to Arkansas Corp records. He's got all the property I said, as per Ramblingrose's Benton County property links (there's much more than she posted) ... he's flying around in a 4 mill $ jet with a half mill hangar, per FCC and Benton County, but has made no documentaries in recent years ... the Marine's deny he was enlisted (come up with a record stating otherwise), and you'll never come up with a record of a purple heart, although he claims to have been wounded ... and like I said, the state/county have tried to prosecute him for misuse of church funds ... which will prove true, too.

Gee, Abi ... and I haven't really gone into the really good stuff yet. lol

[aviyah]

Stage Director,

I am AviYAH, not Abiyah.

Having to re-orient you is getting tiresome!

*********************************************** ***
"everything I've said has been proved true" (Stage Director, 05/23/07)
*********************************************** ***

Did I miss something? I have read nothing more than accusations and insinuations which apparently cannot be varified.

Surely you can site one newspaper article about Murray since you are so obviously consumed with digging into this man's personal life.

*********************************************** ***
"I haven't really gone into the really good stuff yet" (Stage Director, 05/23/07)
*********************************************** ***

Pray tell....What is the hold up?

God Bless, AviYAH

[stage_director]

Well, Abi .... I do know the truth about his education and where his "doctorate" came from. However, I happen to be one who agrees that formal education doesn't necessarily make the man ... so I haven't decided if revealing that information would serve any purpose other than to embarrass the man.

[smyrna]

Pretty slick of Stage Director to act like those accusations she has come up with were the only ones.

She is STILL short three planes which she claims Pastor Murray owns.

She has not proven that the plane was purchased with Church funds, since I heard Murray state at least one of those planes was donated.

And this is how she responded to Aviyah's (she's still calling her "Abi") about the claim the "local" AR. papers were writing about the SC:

"Well, Abi .... I do know the truth about his education and where his "doctorate" came from."

That's a really weak and irrelevant response. It by no means is an answer.

I really don't care, as an SC student, if Murray got his doctorate from a Cracker Jack box. I know of a few people with advanced degrees that are real morons, like the liberal professors we see on TV talk shows.

Murray knows his stuff, even so-called critics, as Godchild recently reaffirmed, freely admit that.

S_D acts as if she proved that the SOC is a racist organization. We have noted that the SOC is a generic term, and that even neo-nazis deny that the SC is a racist Church, as much as they wish it was. They have absolutely no reason to lie about that.

"I haven't really gone into the really good stuff yet" (Stage Director, 05/23/07)

That's right, Aviyah. Maybe she thought that the Murray's houses, which are, as we already have noted, quite modest in comparison not only to other TV ministers, but even many of us have houses in that price range, would have caused us to gasp and automatically feel like we got ripped off for donating money to the Chapel.

The fact is, I actually feel like donating more money, since I know this will p'off Stage Director as much as it does Godchild.

Then we have the "one of Pastor Murray's sons is a drunk" allegation. Noe evidence at all.

We also have the allegation that Oliver Goff stayed with Murray when the SC was founded. No evidence at all.

The original allegation about the properties, is that Murray held them under different corporate names,and a dozen of them as well.

But now we see it is either the SC or SOC, and less than a dozen.

[smyrna]

There are other allegations she has not proven either, such as her claim that Murray keeps ALL the money donated to the Chapel for himself. That charge is so ludicrous, I don't blame Stage Director for doing everything she can to try and get us to forget it.Again, no evidence.

Her comment "...so I haven't decided if revealing that information would serve any purpose other than to embarrass the man.." Is really so dishonest,I'm extremely happy she said that.

Because all this woman has done so far is to try and embarrass Pastor Murray,which is really ridiculous, since I'm sure Pastor Murray could care less about how some whacked out woman says about him on the web, since she doesn't even bother to offer proof in MOST cases.

But she also tries to embarrass us, though so far all she has done is complain about things she thinks is wrong, but has failed to convince any of us to think the way she does about Pastor Murray and the SC.

Stage Director sneaks in the purple heart issue, even though I have never heard Murray claim he has one, and I also know that not everyone who is wounded gets awarded the Purple Heart.

Now, Stage Director made the allegation that Murray didn't even serve, which is really silly, since he would not expose himself to ridicule by claiming he did, if it can be proven he didn't.

Now that is Stage Director's allegation, and she wants US to prove it!

No, the burden of proof is on the accuser. So you either prove he didn't serve, or have it chalked up as another false allegation. Maybe you can ask your friend Margie Plummer why she removed all references to his war record from her website.

One critic says this: "For example, why was PM willing to reveal his involvement in the military? Wasn’t he worried that critics would judge him by his association with the military?"

Sorry Stage Director, so far you have convinced only yourself.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Quote:
Now that is Stage Director's allegation, and she wants US to prove it!

No, the burden of proof is on the accuser. So you either prove he didn't serve, or have it chalked up as another false allegation. Maybe you can ask your friend Margie Plummer why she removed all references to his war record from her website.


Great comment Smyrna!</font>

[stage_director]

QUOTE
The fact is, I actually feel like donating more money, since I know this will p'off Stage Director as much as it does Godchild.
END QUOTE

I'm all for it. Say ... why don't you sell your pc so you can give even more?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[smyrna]

Sorry S_D, Not only am I keeping my PC, but I'm getting another laptop.

Besides, I'm surprised you aren't taking your own advice since you consider people with $300,000
houses to be living in excess, in a nation that has more millionaires and billionaires than any other country in the world.

Of course, your attempts at amusing yourself does nothing to address the accusations you still have not provided proof for.

But since that only benefits our cause, and not yours, I'm glad you are doing what you are doing.

[aviyah]

Stage Director,

Can't you come up with one newspaper? It shouldn't be too difficult since you claim the stories of fraud are "in all the local papers".

The fact of the matter is, this ministry reaches thousands, maybe millions of viewers who otherwise would have no means of hearing God's word.

There is no denying that Sheperd's Chapel does NOT pressure anyone to send money. There is very little focus on the issue of money at all. In fact, more time is spent encouraging viewers to pay their own bills before worrying about tithing.

As for as I can tell, no one has ever been harmed by the teachings of Sheperd's Chapel.

Because this ministry is available to so many viewers for FREE if they chose, speaks to the fact that the hand of God is leading it.

God Bless, AviYAH

[stage_director]

QUOTE
Besides, I'm surprised you aren't taking your own advice since you consider people with $300,000
houses to be living in excess,
END QUOTE

Silly wabbit ... I consider a $300,000 to $700,000 home purchased at the expense of your congregation in a rural county where average home prices are under $150,000 to be living in excess. Where I live $300,000 would not buy that much.

[aviyah]

Rage Director,

Now what about those newspaper articles you spoke of?

God Bless, AviYAH

[smyrna]

I'm at peace too. Stage Director is the one who is having the emotional problems.

After all, she is the one who is having serious problems with maintaining credibility. She dwells in the trivial, while ignoring the major issues she has with her won credibility.

S_D wants to go round and round. If she really thinks the SC is being operated in excess, she knows where to complain. Complaining here may the the only place she can do so, that will bring ANY response.

I'm sure that when she complains to any government agencies, she gets no response because they actually want documented proof, which S_D cannot deliver.

[dowen]

"Rage Director"

Hahaha, that was a good one.

The burden of proof always falls to the accuser, S_D in this case. If she can back up her accusations, then more power to her. If not then she is little more than a rabble rousing busybody, getting her kicks by poking fun at SC.

The way I see it, her 'facts' are long overdue.

[smyrna]

I like that one, too. "Rage Director". It is a telling label to be sure.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
\To bad we don't use the mind of Christ very often.
We wouldn't be "labeling" people now would we?

I know,I know someones going to jump right on this.
I don't care.

Excuses don't mean a thing in God's economy.
</font>}

[smyrna]

Dave,

You're right, since I'm one of those doing the labeling, I will jump on it.

Using a descriptive term to express the REALITY of another's behavior, is just one way to communicate, and that is all.

Do I really have to remind you that Jesus Himself called people fools, vipers, and hypocrites?

It isn't an excuse, I'm not asking to be excused from anything.

Just to make it easy on you, so there is no confusion, here are some common examples:

Liar: Someone who has been repeatedly caught telling lies.

Idiot: Someone who has a problem grasping even the simplest of communications, explanations, or otherwise gives such that can only be determined to be nonsense.

Hypocrite:

Someone makes up rules, and breaks them, or someone who claims another is doing something wrong, when they themselves are doing the same thing.

Rage Director: A person who directs their rage at a person, place, or thing.

[smyrna]

Dave and All,

Let's not let go of the main topic here, and that topic is not how we describe "Rage Director", but when she will give us proof of the many allegations she has yet to provide proof for.

This woman has been dodging her own allegations for weeks. She has done everything to try and skate that issue. She had given only two comments even remotely related to providing evidence, and she repeats them.

She really has a hard time with math. She gives two comments, and even one of those only accounts for two out of the five planes she claimed the Murray's own.

I don't even care if Murray has his own air force. But when you claim something back it up!

I'm not going to list the allegations again right now. She knows what they are, and I keep a list of them which I am adding to, so I can quickly copy and paste them when I feel the need.

So like the title says, she either puts up or shuts up, or, my best alternative for her, appearing to be yet another dishonest, lying, slandering, one person freak show. (how's that for labels?)

Dave, I find it amazing that you would nit pick about some name we apply to a detractor, but don't have much to say about something I KNOW you couldn't help but notice,like:

The main subject this thread addresses

S_D has made accusations she has not provided any source for, or any other way to verify her allegations.

Now do you, or do you not, have a problem with a person who does such a thing? Do you respect them as credible?

[stage_director]

Hey, Dave ... I love it! When they start naming you it means they wish you'd go away because you're putting a serious crimp in their style.

Hey, Smyrn ... here's a couple you might like ... How about Rage Inspector? Or Stage Corrector? Wait, wait ... I got it! Enraged Sector! Naw ... that one that fits best is Lie Detector ... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[smyrna]

How about hijacking the name Dodge?

After all, that is all you are doing.

You are a liar. You have no credibility. You claim you are different from the other detractors, claim you have unique info, and you don't have a damn thing.

So laugh it up! And we will laugh AT you.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

To the other readers: Do you really need more proof that S_D is a liar?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Thanks for starting this thread, Aviyah. I think it allowed S_D to be exposed as the liar she is in a very short period of time.

[stage_director]

Oh Smyrna ... you really are in denial, sport. lol

[smyrna]

Denial about what? Does anyone see evidence for all your accusations?

No. Because they are not here.

It's you that is denying the obvious, and the obvious is that you have not provided any accusations you can back up, except two trivial ones, and one of them you screwed up, it's not even half true, if you go by the numbers. In other words, two does not equal five.

Look at yourself. Dodging and weaving, refusing to provide evidence. All you do is allow yourself to be reduced to heckling.

I think that's great. Look at your own words. Look at how you deliberately sidestepped all the challenges here.

Everyone can see what you are doing, whether you deny it or not, it is right here for all to see.

I'm not the only one who sees you doing this.

So if you want to laugh while you sink deeper into the mire and slime that is the home for detractors like you, I couldn't be happier.

Every time you come on here and don't bring any evidence with you, it just proves what we've been saying all along.

Perhaps, you very foolishly think you can wear me or anyone else out with your continuing to dodge the fact you haven't provided a shred of evidence for your allegations, save the ones that are innocuous, as in "so what"

Don't bet on it.

[aviyah]

Rage Director,

*********************************************** ***
"When they start naming you it means they wish you'd go away because you're putting a serious crimp in their style". (Rage Director, 05/25/07)
*********************************************** ***

Maybe some would like for you to go away. I can't speak for others but personally, I would just appreciate it if you would stop slandering my church and my pastor. Actually I enjoy the challenge of exposing the fact that you are full of hot air.

ONCE AGAIN, WHICH NEWSPAPERS ARE FILLED WITH STORIES OF ALLEGED FRAUD?

God Bless, AviYAH

[smyrna]

Aviyah,

Well, as you see, S_D has retreated from your challenge.

I really don't see much difference between Godchild and Stage Director.

They, lie, lie, lie, and have no credibility whatsoever.

[stage_director]

The first time ...

"EVEN PLANES ARE TAX FREE, JUDGE RULES" Mobile (Al) Register 10/29/94

"JUDGE GROUNDS EFFORTS TO TAX CHURCH PLANES" Daily Record, Bentonville, Ark 10/22/94

[smyrna]

S_D again tries to get away with posting stuff that has NOTHING to do with SPECIFIC references to an investigation of the SC.

Once again, WHERE precisely, is RECENT references (not 13 years ago!)to the SHEHERD'S CHAPEL in a LOCAL (not Mobile, Al)newspaper, a specific reference to an investigation of misuse of Church funds?

There is a Benton County Daily Record, but that means zilch until S_D gives us a date, where we can verify there was an article, and what that article contains.

Remember, she stated that there was an ONGOING investigation, about SC Church finances, not tax laws as they apply to Churches. Without any proof, we can only see it as a lie.

I do want to commend the judge for NOT finding any problem with a Church owing any planes, even not obligating the Church to pay any taxes on it either!

[stage_director]

QUOTE
but that means zilch until S_D gives us a date
END QUOTE

Duh ... can you read dates? You're the one's who said it never happened. Go find the articles yourselves. ;-)

[smyrna]

"Duh ... can you read dates? You're the one's who said it never happened. Go find the articles yourselves. ;-)'

Smyrna: yeah, and they go back 13 years!

First of all, the burden of proof is your obligation, not us.

Secondly, I really don't consider tax issues interesting enough to look up articles that are 13 years old!

Third, you are once again trying to slime your way out of another unproven accusation.

And that's way cool with me!

AVIYAH wrote:

"Right Smyrna, but since Rage is remaining mute on this subject, I am currently awaiting email responses from the editors of all 4 Benton County newspapers to find out if ANY articles were ever even written about Shepherd's Chapel."

Good work! I hope they answer, I'd love to see this one nailed!

Rage Director owes you one, since the burden is really hers to prove her allegation.

I'll tell 'ya, if Rage Director was an investigative reporter, she would have been run off that job post haste.

Once again S_D, WHERE precisely, is RECENT references (not 13 years ago!)to the SHEPHERD'S CHAPEL in a LOCAL (not Mobile, Al)newspaper, a specific reference to an investigation of misuse of SC Church funds?

[stage_director]

QUOTE
is your obligation
END QUOTE

I'm not obliged to you in any way, sport.

[smyrna]

One you make an accusation, you aren't obligated to one participant in a forum, you are obligated, unless you want to be ignored as somebody credible,to prove your allegations.

Now since it is apparent you cannot, then it is very simple to deduce you have no credibility.

But we knew that already. You are just confirming it. So the only credible thing you have done is to prove your own credibility is in very serious doubt. How's that, "sport?"
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Smyrna and I should include Watchman as well,
There is nothing Christ like in the names or in the way you use those names.
No reason/excuse is viable whether you think so or not.
You are not the Christ and do not have the right to assume His authority.

You seem to think in opposition to the command of Christ to Love.
What of love is there in these games and name calling?
I will gladly answer that,"NONE".

Rationalize all you want,Christ commanded "us" to Love all people even if they oppose us.
That is,
"if" we are His.

If we are not His we will not reveal the "unconditional love" that He has towards others.

Truth really is that simple.

</font>}

[smyrna]

Thank you for your opinion, Dave. Of course, I disagree.

Funny you didn't mention any of the detractors by name, which have clearly used such vile language,comparing whatever myself and Watchman have ever said on these threads to the literary pornography Godchild and Franklin have uttered, is like comparing Grimm's Fairy Tales to Hustler magazine.

Does allusions to male on male sex with an Orangutan, "cold bich" "jerk, and you can add off to that", "mongrel terd" ring any bells with you?

This thread was started to test the detractor Stage Director's credibility. Credibility is the issue, and your credibility is also, since you are not exactly being fair and balanced in your "advice."

[watchman_2]

Nice objectivity there David!

I never see you admonishing godchild once. What's the matter -- are you afraid that, if you do, she will get you booted off your beloved cultblunders site?

And, you are a fine one to comment about this as you act real Christ-like and deny every truth presented to you.

[aviyah]

Rage Director,

Are you KIDDING?

*********************************************** ***
"EVEN PLANES ARE TAX FREE, JUDGE RULES" Mobile (Al) Register 10/29/94

"JUDGE GROUNDS EFFORTS TO TAX CHURCH PLANES" Daily Record, Bentonville, Ark 10/22/94

(Rage Director, 05/28/07)
*********************************************** ***

Are you REALLY serious RAGE?

I found the first article you sited, from the Mobile Register in 1994. It states that 13 years ago, a circuit court judge ruled that the county tax assessor could not tax the two planes owned by Sheperd's Chapel ministry. THAT'S IT! It does NOT say one word about fraud or anything of that nature.

I never did find the second article you sited from the Bentonville Daily Record. It seems that most archives don't go back that far. It's curious that you still view it as breaking news, 13 years (and how many posts) later.

Regardless, judging by the title you provided (Judge Grounds Efforts to tax Church Planes), it sounds like much of the same as the first article.

Come on Rage! This is utterly rediculous! And I might add, it IS in fact a re-hashing of the whole "how many planes" dispute.

Rage, you DO LIE. You posted, to Ramblingrose I believe, that "They know he's a fraud...It's in all the local papers". You did NOT say, "13 years ago, there were 2 miniscule articles regarding whether or not the planes owned by Sheperd's Chapel were tax exempt".

If you really feel led to discredit Sheperd's Chapel, why would you have to resort to these unscrupulous methods of perverting the truth?

Alas, it hasn't been a complete waste of time though. Thank you for the glimpse of your true character.

As I warned you before, God will never allow you to discredit Sheperd's Chapel as long as His truth is taught there.

Reap what you sow, AviYAH

[smyrna]

Aviyah,

Good post once again you have shown R_D that she has to resort to posting old stuff, trivia, and so much for her unforgotten claim that she has some earth shattering information she is purposely withholding until the "right time."

She doesn't have a damn thing, and her foolish false accusations aren't exactly making it to Headline News or FOXhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Yes, the plane issue began with one of her lies,and it will go down as one of her many lies she has posted here at FN.

But I say give us more lies, since it's only her own reputation she is damaging, not Murray's or anyone else's.

She's not very intelligent, so she can't see that this is true. I say she can have all the rope she needs to hang herself.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[stage_director]

You only read an excerpt, and it's not the only investigation ... Btw, he hired Sam Walton's lawyers and that little county couldn't outlast his dollars. He's gotten quite wealthy buying Walmart stock for himself with your generous donations. That, and not paying taxes on his, ummm, personal property ... he's laughing (at you students) all the way to the bank.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[smyrna]

"You only read an excerpt, and it's not the only investigation ... Btw, he hired Sam Walton's lawyers and that little county couldn't outlast his dollars. He's gotten quite wealthy buying Walmart stock for himself with your generous donations. That, and not paying taxes on his, ummm, personal property ... he's laughing (at you students) all the way to the bank."

Sorry Stage_Defecator, but first of all, you still make accusations without providing any way we can verify what you say.

Secondly, I own Wal-Mart stock, I worked on the Chicago Board Options Exchange for twenty years, and I've done pretty good in the markets myself.

That means if Murray is laughing all the way to the bank, all power to him. Maybe I'll meet him there sometime.

You tried this stuff already, can't you find something new to whine about?

You still haven't even proved that Murray even takes a salary from the Chapel, and now you are claiming he's investing in Wal-Mart stock.

It matters not. Because as I've said and none of the other students have disagreed, Pastor Murray and his sons have worked very hard running that ministry, and just putting up with nutcases like you justifies whatever BLESSINGS come to them.

If anything, my experiences with you liars and slanderers have shown me what the Murrays have sacrificed to teach God's Word, and now that I see how vile you "Christian" detractors can be, I know that no amount of money would satisfy me if I was in their situation.

If they have all the money you claim they do, they could just quit tomorrow, and be set for life, and not have to put up with you jerks. But they don't because it's not about money.

I think you are just a loser in life, and so you take your failings and your anger that you are a failure and vent that anger at those who remind you what a loser you are.

It's funny that only non-Catholics criticize the Vatican for all its wealth. It's funny that anytime religious leaders are criticized it's rarely ever from the congregation.

Now here is one glaring lie:

"Btw, he hired Sam Walton's lawyers and that little county couldn't outlast his dollars."

Sorry, but it is a FEDERAL law that regulates non-profit's tax status, and whether IRS laws have been violated.

That means Benton County has nothing to do with enforcing IRS regulations, so it's obvious you are lying.

So the laugh is on you, since we don't care how much money the Murray's have, and we also don't trust anything you say,(which isn't much anyway) because you are so damn foolish, only another fool would ever believe you.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[smyrna]

Great posts Angie and Aviyah!

Stage_Defecator must be a communist, who thinks that anyone who has an income is evil. I wouldn't be surprised if this women is using a public computer because she can't afford her own. Maybe we should ask Godchild is she's seen Stage_ Defecator at the local Air Force base or something, trying to use their computers.

She sounds like a real loser, and how can someone be so miserable as to spend so much time whining and complaining, spreading rumors and trying to dig up dirt on people? She's not even good at it, because she doesn't ever give any proof!

Anyway, it was funny when you impeached her on the Wal-Mart stock claims vs her earlier claim about Murray having no other income.

[aviyah]

*********************************************** ***
"Sorry, but it is a FEDERAL law that regulates non-profit's tax status, and whether IRS laws have been violated." (Smyrna, 05/29/07)
*********************************************** ***

Very good point Smyrna. Thank you.

God Bless, AviYAH

[stage_director]

Murray's source of income is the church he claims all the time he takes no salary from. He has no less than a dozen assets he claims are church property ... three are actually used in the manner the law defines church property. Shepherd's Chapel/SOTC is also the source of income of his sons. Those three and Martha are the sole board members and divy up accordingly.

Something I find ironic is that Murray teaches Jews or Kenites live off others, whether it's farming, business or whatever ... when this is how he lives ...

There's something wrong with a church pastor who buys multi-million dollar aircraft and tax free housing for himself ... but supports no charities or worthwhile causes that don't put money back in his pockets.

[smyrna]

Can't Stage_Defecator read? We don't care about her accusations.

She can misrepresent what Murray teaches all she wants, because she's ruined any credibility a while ago.

According to S_D, if you have a job, and work hard, you are "living off" your stock holders,customers,and in this case, congregation.

Here's a Bible verse describing S_D who thinks I don't know the Bible:

"..unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good"..

II Timothy 3:3

"There's something wrong with a church pastor who buys multi-million dollar aircraft and tax free housing for himself ... but supports no charities or worthwhile causes that don't put money back in his pockets."

"And again, it is actually the "norm" for most churches to own the houses where their pastors live. Your "ummms" don't make it something unsavory, as much as you would like it to."
Angie

No, there is something wrong with someone who tries to claim she knows what charities the Murrays donate to. So you cannot make a claim about that in any way, you are a liar, but we know that already.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Smyrna:
This thread was started to test the detractor Stage Director's credibility. Credibility is the issue, and your credibility is also, since you are not exactly being fair and balanced in your "advice."

---
Not fair and balanced huh?

Nice selective memory there Smyrna.
I have addressed attitudes from both camps and you already know this is fact.
So,
I have to wonder why you now deny it?
I take heat from both camps and you lie about it. Why?

I would avoid the credibility issue for now if I where you.You do way too much misrepresentation of what is actually said.

Like I told you when you first foisted this misrepresentation upon me,
"Ask Godchild ,Franklin ,Admin or Mitch if I addressed this issue of attitudes with all included.

Stop being dishonest.
(if you are able to that is)

None of the Christless name calling and bashing is Godly in any way.
You have even given excuses for disobeying the command to love all men.
(Jesus said this or that to this one and that one)You aint Jesus buddy.
Jesus said to Love all men and you find excuses for disobedience to that command.

It's your chioce but don't try to lie about what I stand for.
I will call you on it every time.

Dave
</font>}

[watchman_2]

stage_director,

You have destroyed your credibility with all of your undocumented accusations. You have done things in reverse order.

First, you should present the documentation/proof of improprieties. Then, you can draw whatever conclusions you wish to make from such improprieties.

Instead, you throw out the allegations and the conclusions that you have drawn. Absent the documentation/proof to support your allegations, the objective viewer has little choice but to think you are just a bag of wind.

Though you have been informed that your allegations lack substance, you continue anyway.

The latest undocumented list:

1. "Murray's source of income is the church".

2. "He has no less than a dozen assets he claims are church property".

3. "three [assets] are actually used in the manner the law defines church property"

4. "Shepherd's Chapel/SOTC is also the source of income of his sons"

5. "Those three and Martha are the sole board members and divy up accordingly".

6. "Murray teaches Jews or Kenites live off others, whether it's farming, business or whatever ... when this is how he lives ... "

7. "There's something wrong with a church pastor who buys multi-million dollar aircraft"

Of course, buying TV time at 325 stations costs nothing and a servant is not entitled to any compensation.

Get real!

[stage_director]

QUOTE
"SD: There's something wrong with a church pastor who buys multi-million dollar aircraft and tax free housing for himself ... but supports no charities or worthwhile causes that don't put money back in his pockets."

"Angie: And again, it is actually the "norm" for most churches to own the houses where their pastors live
END QUOTE

On the contrary ... pastors DON'T spend close to $400,000 on a new address when they already have another home in the church's name ... and there's a third one, too. Just how many homes do you think is the "norm" for a church to buy for their pastor? Regardless ... not long after Anna died he spent almost 5 million tax free dollars ... ON HIMSELF.

[stage_director]

lol According to you Shep Chap'ers I've destroyed my credibility soooo many times that by now I should be in a deficit. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif I mean, it's your standard salutation. For the record, your credibility with me is nil, too ... So if you don't (or do) mind, think I'll just keep on keepin' on. ;-)

[watchman_2]

stage_director,

You wrote:
*****
So if you don't (or do) mind, think I'll just keep on keepin' on. ;-)
*****

You haven't brought anything here yet except two of the five airplanes. Everything else has been hot air from the bag of wind that is you.

So, bring it on for real -- we have all been waiting for the proof.

If you don't think we have any credibility, then there would be no reason for you to be here and make such a fool of yourself. Your presence is prima facie evidence that we are credible.

[angie0401]

s_d said:
On the contrary ... pastors DON'T spend close to $400,000 on a new address when they already have another home in the church's name ... and there's a third one, too. Just how many homes do you think is the "norm" for a church to buy for their pastor? Regardless ... not long after Anna died he spent almost 5 million tax free dollars ... ON HIMSELF.

Another unfounded, unproven accusation. You have been told several times that the plane was a GIFT - that means he didn't "spend almost 5 million tax free dollars".

You know, s_d, I just wonder what your point is here? Do you donate money to the Chapel, s_d? I would assume not, but maybe I'm wrong. I think we can all agree that (along with others on here) smyrna, watchman, terluvire, abiyah, skooter, neginoth and I are all SC students - and you're not, right? We donate money to the Chapel, buy tapes, support the Chapel in various ways, etc - correct? Now here's my question for you - what business is it of YOURS how MY money is spent? Even if you had been telling the whole truth about these items, I don't care and it's MY money that is being used - not yours.
Do you run around to your local churches and demand financial statements, real estate deeds, lists of the property the church and pastor owns?? OF course you don't; if you did, they would laugh you right out of the building. If they knew you were going to use it to try and harm the ministry, you would be quickly escorted out the door, I imagine.

Now, if you're a student of SC who donates money and supports the Chapel, you have a right to ask those questions and get answers. But you're not, we are and we don't have a problem with the things that Pastor Murray or the SC owns, or will buy in the future with OUR money. Clear enough for ya? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[abiyah]

<font color="000000"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"><font size="-1">
Stage Director WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " Gee, Abi ... and I haven't really gone into the really good stuff yet. lol " END
*********************************************** **

Aviyah WROTE:
*********************************************** **
QUOTE: " Stage Director,

I am AviYAH, not AbiYAH.

Having to re-orient you is getting tiresome!" END
*********************************************** **</font></font></font><font color="0000ff"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"></font>

Not too get off topic here.... but I saw this above quote from Stage Director and LAUGHED ! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifStage thinking I'm Aviyah.... LOL ! LOL ! ... is too Funny. Stage, I do not play that multi-username game you play here and also played at The Fig Tree Cafe'. I go by one name here at FACTnet, 'Abiyah', and at The Fig Tree Cafe', I chose 'Ahiah' but ONLY because 'Abiyah' was already taken by someone on the ezboard, otherwise my username at The Cafe' would also had been 'Abiyah'. And yea... allow me to be a second witness to Aviyah words to you, and I lie NOT, for certainly I'm not 'Aviyah', i am 'Abiyah', therefore we are not one in the same poster, yet we are ONE in Jesus Christ The Lord. : ) Amen ! LOL !

Abiyah = meaning "The LORD is my Father"

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifAnd I do not believe I have taken the time to actually welcome you Aviyah to these SC Threads here at FACTnet, so WELCOME Aviyah ! Salute, and God Bless you sister. " )

And one last thing..... I apologize for getting off topic here, but I wanted to say Salute to you also Angie ! I love and miss you, and pray that all is real, real well with you, for you are a beloved friend of mine, and I Thank our Heavenly Father for you. " ) God Bless your heart.

And to all the brothers and sisters who are sincerely in Jesus Christ The Lord, have a wonderfully Blessed Day. " )

Agape,

Abiyah</font>

[stage_director]

QUOTE
You have been told several times that the plane was a GIFT
END QUOTE

You don't know what you're talking about. The 4 million dollar jet was a gift from whom, Angie? Who gave it?

QUOTE
You haven't brought anything here yet except two of the five airplanes. Everything else has been hot air from the bag of wind that is you.
END QUOTE

lol Umm, see "Teachings of Arnold Murray" thread ... You know, the one you all are hoping will scroll to the bottom that I'll never let disappear ... because I've got plenty more to add ...

QUOTE
Stage, I do not play that multi-username game you play here and also played at The Fig Tree Cafe'.
END QUOTE

Okay, you broken records ... I haven't posted on Fig Tree in several years, I used one id there when I did. I use only one id here, as I'm sure the admin of this place are aware ...

[aviyah]

Rage Director,

*********************************************** ***
"Abiyah = meaning "The LORD is my Father" (Abiyah, 05/31/07)
*********************************************** ***

Yes, and Aviya(h) meaning my Father is YAH!

I know you don't need reminding of how this username change came about. You can try to cause confusion (babel) all you want by playing stupid. You are not slick!

Reap what you sow, AviYAH

[angie0401]

Where is YOUR Proof that Pastor Murray bought it with church funds? YOU made the accusation - YOU offer the proof.

Maybe you missed the rest of my post - would you mind responding to it? You know the part where I said even if the plane was purchased with church funds I DON'T CARE and it's really none of your business how MY money (or any money donated to the Chapel) is spent, is it?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[stage_director]

Now lemme see .... He's the pastor of Shepherd's Chapel ... and he has a four million dollar jet ... he's amassed loads of other property for himself in the Shepherd's Chapel and SOTC names. Living tax free ... Hummmm ... what could that mean?

Why, I'll bet Santa left it under his tree. You think?

You say it was a gift. Prove that if you can. Don't waste your time. Will never happen ... And even if you could there's no justification for a preacher keeping a four million dollar toy for himself that was donated to a church.

Wow! I bet the $400,000 "garage" for it was donated, too ... probably by somebody who just happened to have one? Naw ... it was built right after he bought the jet.

[watchman_2]

I took my daughter to a movie over the weekend. The theater was located in the promenade area here in the people's republic. There are those that put on little shows in the street for money.

Some do dancing, singing, arts, crafts, etc., and people pay them for that service.

I did see a preacher there too, which meets stage_director's qualifications for a legitimate teacher of the Bible. He had a microphone and speaker along with his coffee can set out for donations. Guess what -- no one was contributing to his collections or listening to his message.

Pastor Murray teaches the Word of God and God has blessed the SC with lots of donations. Having a plane or two, commercial and residential property, and whatever other assets the SC/SOTC has does not diminish the fact that PM teaches the Word of God.

None of you detractors have made the connection between assests and false teachings.

[angie0401]

s_d said:
You say it was a gift. Prove that if you can.
Now let ME see - you make all kinds of accusations, don't back them up and then challenge US to prove they are lies? NAAHH, I don't think I'm gonna do that. YOU made the accusation, YOU provide the proof.

s_d said:
I bet the $400,000 "garage" for it was donated, too
Actually, you're $100,000 over on the cost of the hangar and it's surrounding land - it was actually $300,000. Do you embellish everything?

And AGAIN - you are NOT a financial supporter (or any other kind of supporter) of the SC, we are and we don't have a problem with it. What business is it of yours how the money WE donate is spent by the ministry WE donated it TO?? Would you also like the name of the local church I am a member of? We recently spent $40,000 on a new roof for the gym and a new central unit. Even though we are a small congregation, we also provide our pastor a nice house, insurance, retirement plan and at least 2 bonuses a year Should I send you a copy of our financial statement for you to approve how we spend our funds? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[stage_director]

QUOTE
s_d said:
I bet the $400,000 "garage" for it was donated, too
angie: Actually, you're $100,000 over on the cost of the hangar and it's surrounding land - it was actually $300,000. Do you embellish everything?
END QUOTE

You better get out your calculator again ... Just the fencing that they put around that property could cost between $50,000 and $100,000 to install.

QUOTE
Should I send you a copy of our financial statement for you to approve how we spend our funds?
END QUOTE

Naw ... I'd much rather see a copy of the pastor's response if he knew what his Baptist Sunday School teacher's beliefs and doctrines really are ... ;-)

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Since Stage Director and Godchild choose to stay away from any Church, they don't give a dime to any place of Christian learning. This actually is justified in their case, because based upon
exhibitions of their "Biblical knowledge" if they did tithe anything, they got ripped off and should demand their money back!</font>

[angie0401]

s_d said:Naw ... I'd much rather see a copy of the pastor's response if he knew what his Baptist Sunday School teacher's beliefs and doctrines really are ... ;-)

Been taking your cues from franklin? I'll type really s l o w l y for you, since I've had to repeat this several times. Even though this is another thing that really isn't any of your business - my pastor knows <u>exactly</u> what my beliefs are. And he definitely knows much more about me and who I am than you ever will, so his decision to have me teach Sunday School, develop our food ministry, teach VBS and handle baptisms &amp; the Lord's Supper really means a lot to me.

Since you want to talk about pastors and churches - where do YOU go to church s_d? Do you agree with everything they teach there? If you do, does that mean you're in a cult; if you don't, do you feel the need to dispute them anytime your beliefs differ? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif
In what way do you contribute there? Is your pastor (assuming you have one) aware of YOUR actions on this (&amp; other) forums? Does it make him proud? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[stage_director]

QUOTE
my pastor knows exactly what my beliefs are.
END QUOTE

Now, that I don't believe, being raised in a Southern Baptist church ... Your pastor might have bought a "toned down" version of your beliefs ... but the only "Baptist" ministers I know of that would condone even a fraction of the Shep Chap doctrine use their ministries to hide Klan robes. I take it your pastor is not one of those? Regardless, your beliefs are not compatible with any of the Baptist Church sects ... and going on what I've observed of you here plus what I know about the Baptist church ... I don't for a moment believe you've been totally up front with him.

[angie0401]

s_d said:
I don't for a moment believe you've been totally up front with him.
Well, I guess it must not be true if YOU don't believe it, right? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif
Not that it matters, but I don't recall saying that it was a Southern Baptist church. There are many different types of Baptist churches.

AND AGAIN - you make lots of assumptions and accusations, but don't answer any questions:

Since you want to talk about pastors and churches - where do YOU go to church s_d? Do you agree with everything they teach there? If you do, does that mean you're in a cult; if you don't, do you feel the need to dispute them anytime your beliefs differ?
In what way do you contribute there? Is your pastor (assuming you have one) aware of YOUR actions on this (&amp; other) forums? Does it make him proud?

[stage_director]

QUOTE
Is your pastor (assuming you have one) aware of YOUR actions on this (&amp; other) forums?
END QUOTE

My pastor is aware of MY actions on this (&amp; other) forums?

QUOTE
Does it make him proud?
END QUOTE

Actually ... he's not someone I'd describe as being "proud" ... ;-)

[franklin]

Any Christian Minister or Jewish Rabbi would be proud of the work that we are doing exposing the racial, anti Semitic hatred that shepherd's Chapel preaches!

[smyrna]

Ok, here it is!

Stage Director REFUSED to come back to this thread, because she didn't want to answer Angie's questions.

As for Frankie, well, the only documented racial slurs on this forum came from Godchild and Franklin. So who are the REAL racists?

[stage_director]

Well, Smyrna ... you are so obviously unstable I'd hardly tell you what church I attended.

[jeff_franklin]

You and your fellow SC stooges are the racists here smearna.

You call the Jews in Israel the spawn of satan.

You pervert the word of God to imply that non Germanic/Gaelic whites, blacks and orientals were not pure enough for Christ to be descended from so God created the lilly white axxed Adam and Eve. All but the Sieg Heil "Adamics" were created on the 6th day with the beasts in the field according to your heresy.

You falsely claim when you are not lying about a "local flood" that Noah stowed the non "Adamics" blacks and orientals with the other beast in the field on the Ark.

You twist scripture to claim there will be an Inner Sanctum of Heaven for the liily white axxed "Adamics" and an outer realm (ghettos) for the non white/non Adamics. Apartheid in heaven.

Your Cult Leader/Fuhrer forbids intermarriage of the races.

There is much, much more. The evidence is everywhere in your heresy.

SC, arnie and his stooges ARE RACISTS!

[smyrna]

"Well, Smyrna ... you are so obviously unstable I'd hardly tell you what church I attended.'

Yeah, ok, more weak excuses. First of all, I didn't ask. Secondly, are you really that stupid, that you think Angie was asking for the address of whatever Church you attend?

The denomination would be sufficient, and once again, you try and evade the other questions by just focusing on one.

No wonder you get along so well with the other detractors. Youa re just as ridiculous as they are.

Ok, so since you are so paranoid, answer 2, 2a, 2b, and 3.

Stuff it, Frankie. The only people that make racist comments on this forum are you and Godchild.

We can't help you are so incredibly stupid, after all these months you still believe your own lies and deliberate distortions.

To me, you are just like some neighborhood drunk that rants and raves all the time,never making much sense. What a freak, and what an incredible coward.

[jeff_franklin]

Genesis 4:1 says Adam is the father of Cain.


Nothing in the Bible says that satan was Cain's father.


Genesis 3:20 says that Eve was the mother of all living.


Your non Christian "church" Shepherd's Chapel says the opposite.

You are heretics, racists and NOT Christians.

[smyrna]

Hey Frankie, you forgot to tell us what Genesis 3:15 means.

But that's ok, you told us before: It is all about stomping on snake eggs!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">LOL Yeah yeah....egg stomping contest...lololol

Hmmmm...that must be what Franklin does on ishtar..oops..I mean easter day....hunting for those snake eggs to stomp..lolololololol</font>

[jeff_franklin]

ok smart ax, what is the Jews' interpretation of Genesis 3:15?

Who is the serpent to them?

You are supposed to be a Jewess. Tell us.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Quote:
Who is the serpent to them?

Who is them? You mean the Jews? I don't know what every single Jewish person believes. Do you? Now if you are talking about those practicing the religion Judaism, I don't know all they believe but I do know they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.

It doesn't matter to me what other religions believe, I only believe what God states. Hopefully, so do you.

Answer from God's word on who the serpent is:</font>
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, <font color="ff0000">called</font> the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
In the light of this threads title,Stand and deliver,
BANG,BANG,BANG!

(you know,stand and deliver)

Sorry but everytime I read the thread title that is all I could think of.
Two guys with six shooters.

And now back to whatever it was.

</font>}

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
In the light of this threads title,Stand and deliver,
BANG,BANG,BANG!

(you know,stand and deliver)

Sorry but everytime I read the thread title that is all I could think of.
Two guys with six shooters.

Give me some credit,I resisted posting this since this thread went up,LOL.

And now back to whatever it was.

</font>}}}