can theists and non-theists find common ground?

[jargon631]

since i have been posting here i have noticed a lot of bile between theists snd non-theists...everyone seems to be "versing" at each other and the rascular density is beyond belief...why let theological differences drive us to such anger ...i think we have more in common than not...fd

[Night_Light]

Jargon,My belief in God is much different then that of the man I am in a relationship with. But we respect each others individuality and personal beliefs. He is a christian(not a fanatic), I am a deist.

I accept the atheist as he/she sees things from a different point of view. There is no hatred or anger on my part but I just expect them to be tolerant. As I have said before tolerance is a form of respect and intelligence - it is expected of all of us..


We need to be able to prove things to ourselves and live in peace with that-experience has brought me where I am...I haven't tried many different forms of religions.. I went from christian to deist almost as I went from girl to woman. It is all about personal growth. Unfortunately sometimes in the middle(we can call that puberty if you will) a cult can come into view and that is where the danger lies.

[ba2]

Jargon,My belief in God is much different then that of the man I am in a relationship with. But we respect each others individuality and personal beliefs. He is a christian(not a fanatic), I am a deist.

I accept the atheist as he/she sees things from a different point of view. There is no hatred or anger on my part but I just expect them to be tolerant. As I have said before tolerance is a form of respect and intelligence - it is expected of all of us..


We need to be able to prove things to ourselves and live in peace with that-experience has brought me where I am...I haven't tried many different forms of religions.. I went from christian to deist almost as I went from girl to woman. It is all about personal growth. Unfortunately sometimes in the middle(we can call that puberty if you will) a cult can come into view and that is where the danger lies.

Perfectly stated. But I would say the ability to disagree depends on the belief structure. For years I have enjoyed discussing religious views with people of many different views. I rarely have a difficult time with Jews, Catholics, Quakers, most mainline Protestants, American or Southern Baptists among numerous others (including athiests). But I seem to I have a difficult time with any group of literal fundamentalists and it doesn’t matter whether they are Islamic or Christian.

[jargon631]

Perfectly stated. But I would say the ability to disagree depends on the belief structure. For years I have enjoyed discussing religious views with people of many different views. I rarely have a difficult time with Jews, Catholics, Quakers, most mainline Protestants, American or Southern Baptists among numerous others (including athiests). But I seem to I have a difficult time with any group of literal fundamentalists and it doesn’t matter whether they are Islamic or Christian.

sometimes i feel they should change the word "fundamentalist" to "rabidly obtuse"...u would also have to add "ability to think clearly" to "belief stricture"...fd

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

sometimes i feel they should change the word "fundamentalist" to "rabidly obtuse"...u would also have to add "ability to think clearly" to "belief stricture"...fd

Actually, we theist are seeking common grounds. The cost of building prisons and mental institutions is skyrocketing. It is that old moral code thingy.

[oneway]

The cost of building prisons and mental institutions is skyrocketing.



Yes...and look whom ends up in most of these institutions...the theists.

[dodge]

As long as theists keep their beliefs to themselves and out of science classrooms, I have no problem with them. On the other hand, the Christian type of theist is likely to consider it a duty to proselytize their belief in an attempt to convert others; and they all think that if you don’t believe as they do your soul is going to suffer forever immersed in burning sulfur…while their souls will be lifted into paradise where they will be kissing Jesus’ feet and adoring their god for all eternity in perpetual bliss. Where would this “common ground” be?

[Night_Light]

On the other hand, the Christian type of theist is likely to consider it a duty to proselytize their belief in an attempt to convert others; Dodge



Stop labeling all Christians this way you are beginning to sound very prejudice.

As far as keeping theism out of the classroom(a child can be sent to a private school or home schooled by parents who have strong convictions about creation), I too believe god is a very personal affair and that science class needs to be void of the big bang or creation theories which can't be proven without doubt(no one was there from the beginning so it's ALL speculation anyway)-It is important to study the laws of nature/mathematics and how they relate to us and how the continuous study of nature has lead and will continue to lead to the advancement of technology..

[dodge]

Hi Night Light/Rachelengland/Franklin. Why is it prejudiced to say that Christians are taught to spread the word of the Gospels as one of their duties? Didn’t the biblical character called “Jesus the Christ” tell his disciples to go out into the world and preach the gospel to every creature? (Mark 16:15) Proselytization is inherent in Christianity, isn’t it? You know, spreading the Word, the “Good News?” It isn’t me who is “labeling all Christians,” but the evangelists in the New Testament. Isn’t it also true that Christians are taught that those who do not accept Jesus the Christ as their personal savior will go to hell?

So you believe that the Big Bang Theory of universal origins should not be taught in public school science classes? How odd! What would you put in its place when students study physical cosmology? In this discipline, the universe is understood to start with what is called the Big Bang followed by cosmic inflation. Or do you believe that physical cosmology should not be taught in schools? That would eliminate an entire branch of science, just because you think that its “all speculation anyway.”

[Night_Light]

hey dodge-you hateful, angry, and very prejudice agnostic...

The Big bang theory is just speculation-that is why it is called a "theory" and if you do not wish that creation or any type of God "theory" be addressed in the public school system(which is fine by me), then the big bang theory should be left outside the door as well. The teaching isn't necessary in order to carry on the insightfullness of astronomy, chemistry or physics in fact life on the planet earth can survive and carry on without it....On the other hand teachers may say-we do not have any idea exactly where we came from YET but here are a few ideas and they can throw the old big bang theory in there, just to be fair..R

Have a great night and a lovely labor day and try to get some help for the hate and anger you show on this board to any and all who have faith in God..:)

[dodge]

Night Light/Rachelengland/Franklin -- You don’t seem to understand the nature of science. You can’t just “leave the big bang theory outside the door” of astronomy or physical cosmology or the nation‘s science classrooms. The BBT is the current prevailing theory that best explains the origin of the observed universe, which states that all matter and energy was compressed into what is called a “singularity,” an extremely small point, “in the beginning.” Scientists, as far as I know, don’t know what caused this singularity to “explode,” and expand outwards into what has evolved over the past ten to twenty billion years as our universe; but they have used general relativity to work backwards towards this singularity up to a certain point. Beyond that, so far, they can only speculate.

I try to educate myself about such things, but I’m no scientist. I base my opinions on what I research, and I know that almost all astrophysicists believe that the BBT best explains the origin of the universe. There is a lot of evidence, but I will leave that up to you to discover for yourself. The Big Bang is the present standard cosmology model, though it does have problems. If you have a better theory that you can offer the scientific world, then perhaps you should write it up and publish it in peer-reviewed journals for feedback. Otherwise, the BBT will continue to be taught in our public schools as the accepted model. With the advent of string theory and speculative accounts of multiverses and the “many worlds theory,” and further research that may come from the Hadron Collider that will test the BBT theory starting next month…maybe we will come closer to discovering the truth about our origins.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Night Light/Rachelengland/Franklin -- You don’t seem to understand the nature of science. You can’t just “leave the big bang theory outside the door” of astronomy or physical cosmology or the nation‘s science classrooms. The BBT is the current prevailing theory that best explains the origin of the observed universe, which states that all matter and energy was compressed into what is called a “singularity,” an extremely small point, “in the beginning.” Scientists, as far as I know, don’t know what caused this singularity to “explode,” and expand outwards into what has evolved over the past ten to twenty billion years as our universe; but they have used general relativity to work backwards towards this singularity up to a certain point. Beyond that, so far, they can only speculate.

I try to educate myself about such things, but I’m no scientist. I base my opinions on what I research, and I know that almost all astrophysicists believe that the BBT best explains the origin of the universe. There is a lot of evidence, but I will leave that up to you to discover for yourself. The Big Bang is the present standard cosmology model, though it does have problems. If you have a better theory that you can offer the scientific world, then perhaps you should write it up and publish it in peer-reviewed journals for feedback. Otherwise, the BBT will continue to be taught in our public schools as the accepted model. With the advent of string theory and speculative accounts of multiverses and the “many worlds theory,” and further research that may come from the Hadron Collider that will test the BBT theory starting next month…maybe we will come closer to discovering the truth about our origins.

Do you mind if I laugh? Your statements are simply ludicrous. The BBT, as you call it, is just a joke. No serious scientist recognizes BBT as anything more than a hypothesis, one of many. NASA is full of scientist who believe in creation. The only reason this pure garbage is taught in school is fear of the truth. BBT, nor evolution has ever won a single court case. They are theories, weally weally purely constructed theories. They are taught in school under the hilarious heading of seperation of church and state. You really need to do some factual research outside the brainwashing you get/got in school.

[dodge]

Hi Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries. You wrote that “no serious scientist recognizes BBT as anything more than a hypothesis,” and that “NASA is full of scientists who believe in creation.” Let’s go to the official NASA website to see if there is any validity to your statements.

“Ever since the days of astronomer Edwin Hubble’s ground-based telescope observations, we have known that the Universe is expanding. This fact, along with Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, means that there must have been a ‘Big Bang’ where the expansion started.”

http://nasascience.nasa.gov/astrophysics/Universe%20Expansion/?searchterm=big%20AND%20bang*

The NASA site goes on to say that they have been able to take a “baby picture” of the Universe through the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe, that shows a time about 400,000 years after it was “born in the Big Bang.”

In an article at NASA titled “Beyond Einstein: From the Big Bang to Black Holes,” it says that Einstein’s Theory of Relativity predicts that the universe is expanding from a Big Bang. It talks of “quantum fluctuations during the Big Bang” that are “imprinted on gravitational waves, the cosmic microwave background, and in the structure of today’s Universe.”

Also at the NASA website, there is an article called “What Are the Origin, Evolution and Fate of the Universe?” It says, “To understand any topic well one must understand its background or history. For the Universe, that history starts with the Big Bang.” Then it examines the subject of “what powered the Big Bang.”

So it doesn’t look like NASA scientists have problems with the Big Bang theory. Let’s move on to your statement that “NASA is full of scientists who believe in creation.” What is your source, and who are these scientists? I’ve searched, but couldn’t find any information about NASA scientists or their belief in creationism. Could you point me to where I could find such names?

And what do you mean "BBT, nor evolution has ever won a single court case." As far as I know, every time creationists have attempted to get "creation science" into public school education they've lost.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Hi Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries.

And what do you mean "BBT, nor evolution has ever won a single court case." As far as I know, every time creationists have attempted to get "creation science" into public school education they've lost.

The BBT, nor the theory of evolution has passed muster in a court of law. Had you bothered to read you would know that. The far left has won ever court case on the theory of separation of church and state.

[dodge]

Mr. Apostolic Truth Ministries -- you failed to give me a list of NASA scientists who are creationists. If you don't back up what you say, you lack credibility.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Apostolic Truth Ministries -- you failed to give me a list of NASA scientists who are creationists. If you don't back up what you say, you lack credibility.

Run your own internet search.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

By the by, Mr. Dodge, do you have any intention of acknowledging you are wrong? You see, why waste my time when you are not going to admit to anything. Remember the discussion on true-believerism? You are the victim, not I.

[dodge]

Mr. Apostolic Truth Ministries -- I HAVE run an internet search, and found no references to any NASA scientists who are creationists. You ask me if I have any intention of acknowledging that I am wrong. About what? In what way am I a victim?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

By the by, Mr. Dodge, do you have any intention of acknowledging you are wrong? You see, why waste my time when you are not going to admit to anything. Remember the discussion on true-believerism? You are the victim, not I.

[dodge]

Mr. Apostolic Truth Ministries -- I see that you are avoiding the fact that you can't back up what you say, that "NASA is full of scientists who are creationists," and "most serious scientists consider the Big Bang theory to be a joke." You consistantly make statements that lack sources or references to establish their credibility. I have demonstrated that NASA considers the Big Bang theory to be the best model for understanding how our universe came into existence through cosmic inflation; and that there are no internet sources to verify your contention that there are many scientists at NASA who are creationists. Lacking proof of your claims, and considering the sources that I established that negates your views, I would say that it has been shown that you are full of crap.

[bluewater2]

I second that notion. There comes a point in time where tapdancing and fancy word-smythin' just don't get the job done.

The fact remains that scientific research, the scientific method and evolutionary theory offer our best opportunity at understanding the world around us, not some lame old book that is nothing but a bunch of parables.

Keep on tap dancing "intelligent design believers", the layers of your fantasy world onion are slowly being peeled away.

Like the last few drops of boiling water in a pot.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

As I have said in the past, IF we had the money and mnapower being wasted today . . . this twenty-four-hour-period . . . trying to find the missing link; we could forever end poverty in the United States.

[jargon631]

well...after reading this thread i guess i have my answer to "can theists\nontheists find common ground"...i may sound like pollyanna, but there is a LOT of common ground...respect for one others opinions would be a fine place to start...theist or non...we all have wants\desires\needs\attributes that blend time and again...creation\evolution\young earth\old earth...none of that matters...we can hiss at each other like cats in the rain and in the end it just doesnt matter...civility would be nice...fd

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

well...after reading this thread i guess i have my answer to "can theists\nontheists find common ground"...i may sound like pollyanna, but there is a LOT of common ground...respect for one others opinions would be a fine place to start...theist or non...we all have wants\desires\needs\attributes that blend time and again...creation\evolution\young earth\old earth...none of that matters...we can hiss at each other like cats in the rain and in the end it just doesnt matter...civility would be nice...fd

As spretty as I am, I would melt in the rain!!

[trainedobserver]

There are actually two views expressed here. One says, I know everything already (its in this book, teaching, recording, filmstrip), therefore I need to learn nothing else. The other says, I know nothing, and must learn everything. The attitude that says, "I know everything already" has no need to question, no need to learn, no need to doubt. The attitude that says, "I know nothing", is open to new information and new ideas even if those ideas conflict with already established ones. In fact ... it welcomes them.

The clash is a philosophical one. Do you already know what is going on or are you still trying to figure it out? I ... personally, am trying to still figure it out. Call me what you like. I don't care. Atheist, agnostic, nonny-nonny, I just know I don't know and I'm not willing to trust the judgment of proven liars, tramps, and thieves over my own. Judge me harshly if you wish. I don't think it matters.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

There are actually two views expressed here. One says, I know everything already (its in this book, teaching, recording, filmstrip), therefore I need to learn nothing else. The other says, I know nothing, and must learn everything. The attitude that says, "I know everything already" has no need to question, no need to learn, no need to doubt. The attitude that says, "I know nothing", is open to new information and new ideas even if those ideas conflict with already established ones. In fact ... it welcomes them.

The clash is a philosophical one. Do you already know what is going on or are you still trying to figure it out? I ... personally, am trying to still figure it out. Call me what you like. I don't care. Atheist, agnostic, nonny-nonny, I just know I don't know and I'm not willing to trust the judgment of proven liars, tramps, and thieves over my own. Judge me harshly if you wish. I don't think it matters.

I concur with your assessment. However, the closed mind is in the opositie direction than you want to believe.

[trainedobserver]

I concur with your assessment. However, the closed mind is in the opositie direction than you want to believe.

Of course!

[Night_Light]

"I know everything already" TO

That is a LIE -fabrication of the truth.. I am a theist and DO NOT pretend to know everything. Belief in a creator does not make some one a know it all. Your statement as usual is bias and unfair. But you are free to remain close minded if you wish. Freedom is a wonderful gift.

[trainedobserver]

"I know everything already" TO

That is a LIE -fabrication of the truth.. I am a theist and DO NOT pretend to know everything. Belief in a creator does not make some one a know it all. Your statement as usual is bias and unfair. But you are free to remain close minded if you wish. Freedom is a wonderful gift.

I thought you were a deist! You're a theist now? Ok. I'm hip to the ability to change your mind thing.

[Night_Light]

My error, I meant to write deist which is a form of THEISM(I can't be a atheist) anyway because I believe in a creator..right?


My goodness all these isms and ists-

[trainedobserver]

My error, I meant to write deist but you consider me to be a theist(I can't be a deist) anyway because I believe in a creator..right?

Apparently you can be whatever you decide you are at the moment! I'm cool with that! As far as the "attitudes" go. The attitude of most if not all theists who post here is that they have a book that defines the universe and everything in it. If something conflicts with the book or the way their "leader" (read pastor, priest, themselves, or favorite author) interprets it then it is obviously wrong! We both know that. Science is all about acquiring new evidence and amending established theories. Why play these childish word games?

[Night_Light]

Even someone as darling and perfect as me can make an error in haste. A deist is a theist and I for one do not think I have arrived, and when you point your finger at people with a belief different then yours - it seems rather intolerant.. R

[trainedobserver]

My error, I meant to write deist which is a form of THEISM(I can't be a atheist) anyway because I believe in a creator..right?


If you are an atheist to all known god concepts I'd say you're an atheist. If you have some concept of god you cling to ... then maybe you are something else.

Question: If as you have stated previously "god is nature" are you part of nature and therefore part of god? If not, are you something outside of nature? What would that make you?

[Night_Light]

I make no claims to be a god or goddess and who and what God is -is beyond me, I have stated before that I respect creation and I think human life is amazing, unlike you- who if I am right has summed it up that we aren't really "all that".

When you say theists all listen to- tramps+ thieves and that we all think we have the answers, you are very wrong.

Now this forum as far as I understood was to be a place where people could come to relate their stories about cults not push atheism or to be fair deism. I came to this forum in the spring of 2005, to discuss the faith healing cult that played a role in the death of my mother. I think it would be wise for all of us to stop the petty religious discussions and make some headway attacking groups that abuse and discriminate against others - that would be considered real unity because no matter if you are an atheist,deist, agnostic or christian we should be able to agree that people who are being lost to DANGEROUS cults need help.

[trainedobserver]

I have stated before that I respect creation and I think human life is amazing, unlike you- who if I am right has summed it up that we aren't really "all that".

You're wrong. That is contrary to many statements that I have made just recently. It doesn't matter. You have always been here to do just what you're doing. It doesn't surprise me or anyone else who has been reading this forum for any length of time. You've always been a pretender and a agitator more interested in getting personal than talking about ideas. You've gone through so many transformations from "a doctor" to this and that and used so many screen names who knows who and what you really are. I personally couldn't care less. You aren't interested in truth that much is obvious. Enjoy entertaining yourself with this sort of thing all you like. I don't care. Like I said before, were you at all serious about deism and had actual ideas about it yourself rather than parroting whatever snippets you've read about it, I'd try to engage you in a discussion about it. As it is I can read Wikipedia for myself.

[Night_Light]

Actually your little group of friends has labeled me that way and you have been bullying me on here for quite sometime. You really want nothing to do with anyone who doesn't turn your way-had I said I was an atheist at this point in my life and that the WOF cult had turned me off to God altogether, you would have kissed my feet.

I will no longer engage you TO- it really is worthless, I have come to the conclusion as have many others that you on are factnet for one reason- to turn people on to atheism , not to help anyone who may have been struggling with the after effects of a cult-your intolerance is an unhealthy trait.

I am a deist-the only reasonable title, who turned away from Christianity over 3 years ago-you have no idea what deism even is and have admitted to such and claiming I used wikipedia is a lie-you can't handle simple truths TO-in your ignorance you look for an intellect you do not possess.

I have no regrets about my personal faith choice and have no idea, nor will I pretend to have some connection to knowing exactly who God is-natural creator is the only logical conclusion.

Instead of take care may I say 2 of your favorite words... BUZZ OFF

[trainedobserver]

I will no longer engage you TO-

Well ... perhaps there is a god after all.

[trainedobserver]

can theists and non-theists find common ground?

It seems the first thing to do is to define terms to prevent confusion and provide a common ground from which discussion can grow. Theists and non-theists often use the same words to mean different things. I've tried to explore some of that in my discussions about what a "belief" is, what "faith" is, what "knowledge" is, what a "god" is, and so on. Phrases such as "accepted into my heart" and so forth require some examination and discussion for example. As a former theist myself I have experienced this problem directly as my thinking has evolved. It has been my experience that "starting over" and examining basic and often taken for granted concepts and well worn phrases is helpful.

[jargon631]

There are actually two views expressed here. One says, I know everything already (its in this book, teaching, recording, filmstrip), therefore I need to learn nothing else. The other says, I know nothing, and must learn everything. The attitude that says, "I know everything already" has no need to question, no need to learn, no need to doubt. The attitude that says, "I know nothing", is open to new information and new ideas even if those ideas conflict with already established ones. In fact ... it welcomes them.

The clash is a philosophical one. Do you already know what is going on or are you still trying to figure it out? I ... personally, am trying to still figure it out. Call me what you like. I don't care. Atheist, agnostic, nonny-nonny, I just know I don't know and I'm not willing to trust the judgment of proven liars, tramps, and thieves over my own. Judge me harshly if you wish. I don't think it matters.


believe me...i am ALWAYS trying to figure it out...i try to keep my mind wide open...wouldnt life be boring if there was nothing to puzzle us?...fd

[jargon631]

It seems the first thing to do is to define terms to prevent confusion and provide a common ground from which discussion can grow. Theists and non-theists often use the same words to mean different things. I've tried to explore some of that in my discussions about what a "belief" is, what "faith" is, what "knowledge" is, what a "god" is, and so on. Phrases such as "accepted into my heart" and so forth require some examination and discussion for example. As a former theist myself I have experienced this problem directly as my thinking has evolved. It has been my experience that "starting over" and examining basic and often taken for granted concepts and well worn phrases is helpful.


agreed...i should have set specific parameters...would anyone care to define (without rancor please) theism\non-theism?...fd

[truth_child]

i dont understand the differenc between athesist and non thesist

[trainedobserver]

i dont understand the differenc between athesist and non thesist

There isn't any. A non-theist a.k.a. atheist does not possess a belief in gods. A theist does hold a belief in a god or gods.

Most theists are atheists to all gods except their own chosen one or however many they believe in. An atheist is just an atheist to all. So most theists and non-theists are just one god apart.

Theist is generally used to describe the belief in a god that is actively engaged in the universe where a Deist, while holding a belief in a creative god, doesn't believe it is still actively participating in its creation.

As an atheist one of the main problems I face when considering theism or deism is the problem of successive creationism. If the universe is designed and created by some being or another it must be assumed that that creator was designed and created as well, and that creator had to be designed and created, and so on for infinity. I do not see any logical reason why if one assumes a creator that one would not assume a creator's creator and so forth.

It seems more likely that the universe has always been around in one form or another and always will. Since I am a witness to the universe itself and not a creator being it is easier for me to assume what I see has always been around rather than something I must imagine. Matter and Energy are constantly changing form from one to another (in reality they may very well be two aspects of the same thing) and are never lost or destroyed.

As a former theist (a Christian) I know there is no good answer for the "who created god" question other than to make the assumption god always did exist and as I have already said, it is easier for me to justify the previous continual existence of what I can actually witness rather than what I do not. That is just the honest truth about how I have come to think about it.

Some myths and religions do contain god origin stories although Judaism and Christianity do not. Most of these god origin stories involve other gods mating and producing lesser gods such as in the Egyptian religion while some have them springing whole from the elements.

In the pursuit of the truth of what we and the universe are I think it is important to not fall in love with any particular idea too much. In Science theories are by their very nature incomplete and subject to revision based on new evidence. The theory of gravity is incomplete for example. You would think something so basic and common to experience would be fully understood but it is not and science recognizes it as such.

As a former theist my reasons for abandoning belief in my particular god was the recognition that I could no longer justify them based on my experience and systematic consideration of the evidence. To say this was a traumatic experience downplays it a bit. What I did discover was that my mind was closed and incapable of considering much else until I abandoned beloved beliefs completely. Its just the way these things work.

The human brain is the most complexly organized matter that we have encountered to date. Endeavoring to understand ourselves seems an impossible task in light of this knowledge yet it is the only pursuit we stand a chance of accomplishing. Paradoxically it seems we will only understand the universe once we come to some understanding of ourselves. It is this understanding that I am interested in now, if this leads me in back in some way to a belief in a god then so be it, as of yet it has not.

The honest pursuit of truth is all that is worthwhile. To live in delusion, no matter how attractive or pleasing is futile and not worth our short lives. We are temporary creatures here for just a very, very brief period. We will be dead a very, very long time. Let us seek truth above all else.

Peace.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

There isn't any. A non-theist a.k.a. atheist does not possess a belief in gods. A theist does hold a belief in a god or gods.


That statement is false . . . at least as applied to this discussion.

[trainedobserver]

That statement is false . . . at least as applied to this discussion.

Can you explain that?

[truth_child]

thanks to for the info

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Can you explain that?

If you did not believe in a God or god, you would not be here.

[trainedobserver]

If you did not believe in a God or god, you would not be here.

I thought this was going to be an honest discussion. Obviously you don't know how to conduct one of those.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Merriam_Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary defines atheist as:

: one who believes that there is no deity.

The same dictionary defines deity as:

1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY b capitalized : GOD 1, SUPREME BEING
2 : a god or goddess *the deities of ancient Greece*
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

God is defined as:

1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

All atheist see themselves as supremely good. They, also, veiw their political/social leadership as "all" powerful.

[bluewater2]

"All atheist see themselves as supremely good. They, also, veiw their political/social leadership as "all" powerful."

That statement is false . . . at least as applies to this discussion.

[oneway]

9 out of 10 athiests probably don't hang around on internet forums where there are proclaimed Christians, unless they are having doubts about their unbelief in God. There is always going to be that exception, like someone such as dodge, who's only purpose is to ridicule Christians and play the clown. But someone such as bluewater, he's not here to specically ridicule Christians. He's more than likely one of those 9 out of 10 athiests who is having doubts about his unbelief in God, yet just can't come to admit it. How do I know all of this? Well I actually don't, but I've conversed with many former athiests, and all of them admitted they were hanging around proclaimed Christians on msg boards because there was always that chance they were wrong and that the Christian was right..that there is a God.

[bluewater2]

"But someone such as bluewater, he's not here to specically ridicule Christians. He's more than likely one of those 9 out of 10 athiests who is having doubts about his unbelief in God, yet just can't come to admit it."

Well, actually I must be one of the 1 out of 10 that you mention, although my calculations show me that all of the, (2 or 3 total), atheists on this board are here because they see religious belief, and christianity and islam in particular, as dangerous and intolerant cults. Now, before you get all freaky on me, I am not slamming christians, just the cult of christianity.

NOW HEAR THIS: I HAVE NO DOUBT WHERE I AM CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER THERE IS A GOD OR NOT. I BELIEVE THERE IS NOT.

I will say, however, that the reverse is likely true where christians are concerned. The nonstop bickering amongst christians as to which brand of christianity is the right one does more to indicate insecurity in beliefs.

But hey, thats just me. Only one of the 3 or so atheists that are here fighting the good fight against an overwhelming majority of "christians" who are are argueing amongst each other.

Carry on.

[Night_Light]

Oneway....that was very insightful!

[bluewater2]

Not really. I think you would see alot more argument between atheists and agnostics on this board, there is none, if there was insecurity in their beliefs.

I, of course, can only speak for myself, but I never question the existance of god. The idea of whether there is or is not a god is not important to me at all, except on this board where it makes good fodder for discussion.

[trainedobserver]

This forum isn't for or about Christianity or Christians. To assume that it is a Christian forum is delusional. It never was about a single belief system, its about cults in general.

I've studied religions, myths, and cults since I was very young. I discovered this forum researching certain aspects of Scientology (if I recall correctly), read a posting that had a question about Secular Humanism, answered it, and have hung around off and on ever since.

If anything, reading what various people have posted here over the years has hammered home one paradoxical aspect of religion that I find disturbing. While proclaiming to be all about "Truth" it is inherently dishonest. From day one in this forum I have encountered a great deal of deception and dishonesty from those who claim to be Christians or 'spiritual'. I simply ask why is that so?

Why can't those who claim to be in pursuit of the truth simply be honest and straightforward in their dealings with those with opposing views?

Have I ever or do I not frequently question my non-belief? Certainly this forum and my interaction with the alleged Christians who post here has validated many of my conclusions about the total failure of Christianity to make good men and women out of people who aren't those things already. Clearly there is no transforming power in Christianity that cannot be found elsewhere. Clearly there is no single 'holy spirit' guiding Christians into a unified understanding of truth.

I question and seek the truth about reality each and every day. I examine and reexamine my conclusions and thoughts continuously. I revise them as necessary. Over the past year and half my understanding of things has evolved tremendously. Some of you are aware of this fact. Can theists and non-theists find common ground? ONLY IN HONESTY AND TRUTH. If the parties participating in the discussion aren't being honest it is simply pointless.

I have no interest in petty flame wars or ego jousting in here or anywhere else. If someone whats to honesty discuss why they believe whatever it is they believe I am more than willing to engage them in discussion.

I call myself an atheist because I don't believe in any god concepts I have ever encountered. I cannot understand how anything like a supreme being could be known. I have yet to have anyone who does believe they know explain to me how they are able to do so in any coherent manner.

If there is a 'supreme being' it would by definition be incomprehensible and unknowable to my understanding. You might say that is agnosticism and you would be correct. The fact that I do not believe in any known concept of god I have yet to encounter however, is honest atheism however.

I have come to realize in the past year or so that we are not the physical appearances that we take for our corporal bodies. We and everything else in the universe are composed of whatever the noumenon of matter and energy are. You may call it Spirit, Light, or whatever you like. We are that and not what we causally experience ourselves as being. The science of neurology and physics bears this out.

Most of the people in this forum have been a terrible disappointment to me over the years. Instead an honest pursuit of knowledge and understanding many of you have displayed a propensity for gossip, slander, misinformation, and just down right dishonesty about who you are, what you actually believe, and what the true nature of various opposing schools of thought are. Nevertheless ... as I say, it is a witness to the delusion and failure of what passes for religion and philosophy for many of you.

I have encountered several people here who although we don't see eye to eye, can agree to disagree and exchange ideas and insights recognizing the genuine pursuit of truth in the other. Sadly they are few and far between.

[Night_Light]

I, of course, can only speak for myself, but I never question the existance of god. BW


I do not wish to invade on anyone's privacy but has that always been the case with you bluewater. Have you always from childhood just dismissed the idea of a creator or higher power of some sort?


To believe or not to believe has been a question we usually all must come to grips with at one time or another.. Some people go through life trying a variety of different "spiritual" paths and others seem content with just one..

[oneway]

This forum isn't for or about Christianity or Christians. To assume that it is a Christian forum is delusional.


I for one am not claiming this is a Christian forum. I know better than that. Undoubtedly there still are many proclaimed Christians here. Christians and cults seem to go hand in hand. If this were a forum directly related to sports, it wouldn't matter if Christians or athiests posted, because one's belief on non belief would not be in question. The topic would more than likeky be about sports and not religion. But in here, even tho this is not a Christian forum, it's hard to keep religion out of it, especially when religion is usually what causes cults in the first place.

[dodge]

Hi Oneway. So your theory is that “nine out of ten atheists who hang around message boards where Christians post have doubts about their unbelief in God.” What in hell did you pull that statistic from? Let me guess. That fleshy part of your body that you sit on?

You say that you “conversed with many former atheists,” the sample population from which you derived your analysis where you discovered that “nine out of ten atheists who visit forums where Christians congregate have doubts about their disbelief in God.” Tell me, how many “former atheists” have you talked with, and how many of them told you they went to message boards where Christians posted because they had doubts and then became theists? A couple, a dozen, less than a hundred? Do you have any idea how many non-theists post on forums where those who say they are Christians also post? The reality is that you have no idea what you’re talking about, and your rants are nothing other than uninformed opinions.

Oneway, you’re as full of crap as most theists who post on internet forums. You make these statements that have no basis in reality, that you have no references or sources to support, and expect them to be taken seriously? Yeah, right...nine out of ten of us think you're talking out of your lower posterior.

[Night_Light]

Oneway, you’re as full of crap as most theists who post on internet forums. You make these statements that have no basis in reality, that you have no references or sources to support, and expect them to be taken seriously? Yeah, right...nine out of ten of us think you're talking out of your lower posterior. dodge


Now there is a sign of tolerance...



I will add to this one more thought-can we get along...as long as we aren't discussing God(lol) but I think there are many things that we can morally agree on and accomplish together..R

[oneway]

Hi Oneway. So your theory is that “nine out of ten atheists who hang around message boards where Christians post have doubts about their unbelief in God.” What in hell did you pull that statistic from? Let me guess. That fleshy part of your body that you sit on?

You say that you “conversed with many former atheists,” the sample population from which you derived your analysis where you discovered that “nine out of ten atheists who visit forums where Christians congregate have doubts about their disbelief in God.” Tell me, how many “former atheists” have you talked with, and how many of them told you they went to message boards where Christians posted because they had doubts and then became theists? A couple, a dozen, less than a hundred? Do you have any idea how many non-theists post on forums where those who say they are Christians also post? The reality is that you have no idea what you’re talking about, and your rants are nothing other than uninformed opinions.

Oneway, you’re as full of crap as most theists who post on internet forums. You make these statements that have no basis in reality, that you have no references or sources to support, and expect them to be taken seriously? Yeah, right...nine out of ten of us think you're talking out of your lower posterior.



Come on dodge, you shoulfd be able to deduce from my post that I wasn't trying to be factually accurate. I was merely only trying to make a point. Why is it, many times, posts are taken so literally in these forums, when it wasn't even meant to be taken literal in the first place, but meant to just to make a point?

Have you ever seen one of those commercials on tv where it states 9 out of 10 dentists
recommmend...
Surely you don't take that as being factually accurate, right? I know I don't. So what is the point then? The point is to sell their product.

So what's the point in even suggesting that 9 out of 10 athiests hang where proclaimed Christians are just in case they're wrong about God? Because it appears to be the most logical conclusion. As a Christian, I don't hang around boards where there are nothing but athiests. I'm not concerned that I might be wrong. So I don't feel the need to see what the athiests are saying just in case I am wrong. The truth is, I'm 100% convinced that there is a God. I will never change my mind. Also, the truth is, not every athiest is 100% convinced that there is no God, otherwise there would be no such thing as prior athiests who now believe there is a God.

[trainedobserver]

The truth is, I'm 100% convinced that there is a God. I will never change my mind. Also, the truth is, not every athiest is 100% convinced that there is no God, otherwise there would be no such thing as prior athiests who now believe there is a God.

I used to 100% convinced that there was a God. I changed my opinion. History is full of people changing their opinions and beliefs about god, gods, and the supernatural.

That's a bold statement you made, fueled by faith I think, that you will never change your mind. Is there any other aspect of your life that you consider closed and will no longer consider new evidence in and why? Are there any real world examples where doing such a thing is warranted?

Did your belief in "God" originate with your acceptance of Christianity or did you recognize or assume the existence of a God before being introduced to Christianity? If it was the latter, how did you choose Christianity as opposed to Islam, Hinduism, or something else?

[bluewater2]

"Also, the truth is, not every athiest is 100% convinced that there is no God, otherwise there would be no such thing as prior athiests who now believe there is a God."

The same could be said for all ex-christian/theists who now no longer believe in god after years of questioning and searching for answers.

So, where does that leave us? Here, on a discussion board that is here for the purpose of comparing and investigating ideas and philosophies.

I know I am not here to find common ground but to figure out why people believe what they do. Feathers get ruffled and I like that. I want mine ruffled. I would love someone to give me a compelling reason to believe in the supernatural and mysticism.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"All atheist see themselves as supremely good. They, also, veiw their political/social leadership as "all" powerful."

That statement is false . . . at least as applies to this discussion.

No, sir. You count yourself superior to everyone on this board who believes the truth.

[trainedobserver]

I would love someone to give me a compelling reason to believe in the supernatural and mysticism.

Here ... believe it or not I'll give it a go ...

I've come to think that things are turned upside down if you will from the way we traditionaly view them.

The perceived world that we know through experience is accepted as an unalterable reality by many folks. It is the default position of the mechanism of the brain if you will. In reality, the world that we perceive and our body image within it are actually our individual Minds responding to sensory input.

The Mind is Maya or the world of illusion that some traditions speak of, only it is an individual thing and not shared as they often teach. What is shared is the "invisible" world of multidimensional reality which for all practical purposes fits the description of "the spirit world". This invisible unexperiencable world of multidimensional reality is represented by our brain/mind systems as a simplified 3D Virtual Reality. We use this 3D VR to interface and interact with the real world. We live and operate in an visible, tangible illusionary representation of an invisible, intangable reality.

The supernatual or spirit world is actually the real natural world and the world we casually think of as the real world is actually an illusion composed of our living brain matter/fields.

People who think they are "creating reality" with their minds (see What the Bleep and The Secret, etc.) don't realize that the reality they are creating is their minds. Ghosts, spirits, apparitions, supposed psychic effects etc. are manifestiations that only occur within their individual minds and are not shared.

Mysticism, I think, is the outgrowth of the misunderstanding of these two distinct and parrallel dimensions, The Mind Dimension and The Real Dimension.

[bluewater2]

"No, sir. You count yourself superior to everyone on this board who believes the truth."

I'm sorry you are made to feel that way.

And of course, by truth, you mean what YOU believe the truth to be.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

9 out of 10 athiests probably don't hang around on internet forums where there are proclaimed Christians, unless they are having doubts about their unbelief in God. There is always going to be that exception, like someone such as dodge, who's only purpose is to ridicule Christians and play the clown. But someone such as bluewater, he's not here to specically ridicule Christians. He's more than likely one of those 9 out of 10 athiests who is having doubts about his unbelief in God, yet just can't come to admit it. How do I know all of this? Well I actually don't, but I've conversed with many former athiests, and all of them admitted they were hanging around proclaimed Christians on msg boards because there was always that chance they were wrong and that the Christian was right..that there is a God.

Actually, you are more likely to be proselytized by an "atheist" than by a Christian. I used the word "atheist" guardedly.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I used to 100% convinced that there was a God. I changed my opinion. History is full of people changing their opinions and beliefs about god, gods, and the supernatural.

That's a bold statement you made, fueled by faith I think, that you will never change your mind. Is there any other aspect of your life that you consider closed and will no longer consider new evidence in and why? Are there any real world examples where doing such a thing is warranted?

Did your belief in "God" originate with your acceptance of Christianity or did you recognize or assume the existence of a God before being introduced to Christianity? If it was the latter, how did you choose Christianity as opposed to Islam, Hinduism, or something else?

I have always found those statements to be hilarious. I wish I had half the faith you have. But that is the problem when one begins to question their philosopy.

[dodge]

Oneway, it is NOT the most logical conclusion that “atheists hang around forums where proclaimed Christians are just in case they’re wrong about God.” There is no logic at all in this theory of yours. For example, I found my way here to the FactNet forum from the Operation Clambake message board about three years ago. At the time, I was interested in what Scientology was, because of Tom Cruise’s couch jumping episode on Oprah. I researched, read various accounts, including Hubbard’s books, and became a critic. In your logic, this must mean that I was unsure of my disbelief in Scientology.

I am also a member of the Richard Dawkins forum, where I discuss how Christianity is a mental virus spread from psyche to psyche as a self-replicating meme. Theists often chime in there and defend their beliefs. Your logic would dictate that I am unsure of my non-theism because there are those who post there who are self-proclaimed believers in God. I also exchange ideas with others on forums that discuss evolution, where those who call themselves “young earth creationists” post; and in your mind this would indicate that I am questioning my belief in evolution because creationists post there also.

As a non-theist, I don’t hang around Christian message boards. FactNet forum is NOT a Bible study Christian forum, though the administrators here allow Bibleheads to proselytize their belief. So when those of us who are not theists respond and share our opinions, it is not because we are unsure of our disbelief in gods. We are only voicing our point of view in a general forum where various ideas are being articulated.

I am 100% convinced that there are no gods, and I believe that those who do are delusional. Why? Because gods, angels, devils, sylphs, undines, and other supernatural beings have no existence outside of the mind. This seems very clear to me, and I am of the opinion that people who claim that they believe in invisible, unverifiable mythical gods are mentally ill, victims of a psychic virus that causes them to see things that are not there. You say that there are “atheists who now believe there is a God,” but it is also true that there are theists who now believe there are no gods. The universe is not what you imagine it to be, Oneway; because you have been indoctrinated into believing in the Biblical, Christian God which distorts your perceptions and causes you to think that there are supernatural entities that represent "good" and "evil." You believe that you are on the side of "good," and that all those who oppose you and those of your faith are Satan's minions. The truth is that there is no Satan, no God, no Christ, no heaven or hell. These are only psychological constructs that have taken shape in your mind through immersion in biblical verses. The "truth" is something that transcends all of this, something that we as humans cannot perceive.

[trainedobserver]

And of course, by truth, you mean what YOU believe the truth to be.

I think this is the crux of the matter. Is the Truth something that is already arrived at or not. If someone has arrived at The Truth then they stop their search or at least narrow it greatly. If The Truth remains open to further refinement or revision then minds are open to other possibilities.

As someone who believed that Jesus was the embodiment of The Truth I found it pretty much impossible to seriously consider anything that contradicted that belief. I think that is where the breakdown occurs here.

Through some simple experimentation (which doesn't involve drugs, btw) anyone can convince themselves of The Truth that the world they think of as real is actually an illusionary product of their Minds. A great tool for this is the Scientific American publication: 105 Mind-Bending Illusions (May 2008).

http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssue&ISSUEID_CHAR=A01AFA0F-3048-8A5E-10E74BAF366CAA44

[trainedobserver]

I have always found those statements to be hilarious. I wish I had half the faith you have. But that is the problem when one begins to question their philosopy.

Your posts make very little sense to me.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Your posts make very little sense to me.

Actually, my post frighten you.

[bluewater2]

"Actually, my post frighten you."

In case TO doesn't ask you himself, I hope you will explain the thought process behind that comment of yours. How is it that you find anything you might propose as being frightening?

[trainedobserver]

Actually, my post frighten you.

You are delusional.

[Night_Light]

also, the truth is, not every athiest is 100% convinced that there is no God, otherwise there would be no such thing as prior athiests who now believe there is a God. Oneway

WOW!!! that was a powerful statement, they can't really prove there isn't a God-so I can see how you would come to that conclusion... But also you said..religion has a big connection to cults-though I can see that as truth-what about atheism, do you not see anywhere in history as in the communists countries like red china where NO religion is allowed as kind of cultic and dangerous to mankind, as it limits freedom...atheism has a huge reign there..

BTW, BW did not answer the question about his non-faith-I will take it to believe he was raised in a non spiritual household. Because everyone for the most part makes that journey to reach out to something spiritual(unless he is being dishonest) at one point or another and we know our parents and upbringing have a huge impact on our choices...

Dodge(who I thought was agnostic) also has stated in the past he has/had a wiccan girlfriend and I wonder how the two work that relationship out-do you make fun of her dodge or are you tolerant? Because that right there is a true theist/non-theist relationship...Oh yes and bluewater's wife is jewish so there is another relationship that seems to be a true theist/non theist relationship-

I just wonder how two people who think we are all idiots for believing in a God can live in such harmony off the board with other theists?

[oneway]

I used to 100% convinced that there was a God. I changed my opinion. History is full of people changing their opinions and beliefs about god, gods, and the supernatural.

That's a bold statement you made, fueled by faith I think, that you will never change your mind. Is there any other aspect of your life that you consider closed and will no longer consider new evidence in and why? Are there any real world examples where doing such a thing is warranted?

Did your belief in "God" originate with your acceptance of Christianity or did you recognize or assume the existence of a God before being introduced to Christianity? If it was the latter, how did you choose Christianity as opposed to Islam, Hinduism, or something else?




TO, are you sure you're ready for this, because it might just suprise you how I finally once and for all believed that God was real. This might be somewhat of a long story but i'll try and keep it short. If anything it'll probably bore you or perhaps amuse you. Before I tell you, keep in mind this is how it began. My faith increased over the years simply by reading the Bible and realizing that I was understanding things that didn't make sense before. There was a time in my life, when I read the Bible, it was like reading Chinese to me. I couldn't make heads nor tales of any of it. Nothing made sense.

Anyway, right now I'm 50 yrs old. Around 1965 or so, my grandmother moved to Illinois where I was living, and moved in with us. My mother was single at the time and working 2 jobs. At that point we were basically being raised by our grandmother. Before my grandmother moved in, I'd never even heard of God. My grandmother was a Baptist, and her fav evangelist was Billy Graham. My grandmother wasn't no more there an hour and she was already talking about Jesus. I had no idea who she was talking about, but she had a way of speaking that kept your attention.

Now fastforward to when I was at the age of 13 or 14.
My grandmother was still alive, except she no longer lived with us. I would try to read the Bible on my own, but nothing made sense. More and more I was starting to have my doubts about God and if He really existed. I was getting very frustrated over the whole ordeal. My grandmother told me she used to have dreams about heaven and streets of gold. Well I wanted to have dreams like this too, but they never happened. It seemed I could never experience the things my grandmother did, so perhaps God didn''t really exist at all. Perhaps it was just all in her mind.

During that time, we use to play Yahtzee at times. I remember one time I was messing around with the dice just to see what I could roll. Then a thought crossed my mind. I thought to myself, if God is real, then let me throw all of these dice one time and let them all be sixes. Anyone knows that this is not an impossibility, but what are the chances of it happening when you're wanting to see if God is indeed real? So I then spoke out loud, I don't recall word for word what I said, but it was something like this. I said, God, if you're really real then let me shake up all of these dice, and let me throw them one time, and if you are real, let everyone of them
turn up sixes. I shook the dice holder, then tossed the dice on the table not really expecting anything to happen, and what do you know, every last one of them were sixes. It doesn't matter if anyone thinks that was just a coincedence, I happen to know better. From that point on, I never doubted God's existence again.

Did I become a Christian right then? No. A yr or 2 later I started doing drugs, the whole 9 yards. But even during that time I still knew God was real. And over the course of many yrs, without fail, God would send a Christian in my path from time to time, perhaps to remind me that I was getting too far away and that I needed to surrender my life to him.

As a matter of fact, it was when I joined factnet a cpl of yrs ago that I decided to come back home for good. Before that time, I had backslidden for 10-15 yrs caused by the mental and spiritual abuse that I suffered by being a Charismatic. I used to believe that persons such as Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton, were legit Christians. But thank God I backslid. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. Because I'm almost certain I might still be involved with these loons or even worse.

Have I ever witnessed any miracles? No. Have I ever witnessed any healings? No. Have I ever seen any angels, spirits, etc? No.

Now before anyone misunderstands me and thinks my belief in God is/was based entirely on rolling all those sixes that time, think again. That was only the beginning and nothing compared to how God has truly revealed Himself to me thru His word, the Bible.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

"Actually, my post frighten you."

In case TO doesn't ask you himself, I hope you will explain the thought process behind that comment of yours. How is it that you find anything you might propose as being frightening?

I know the truth. And guess what? It ain't what you think it is!

[bluewater2]

""also, the truth is, not every athiest is 100% convinced that there is no God, otherwise there would be no such thing as prior athiests who now believe there is a God. Oneway"

WOW!!! that was a powerful statement,. . . . "

I am curious. How can you find that statement so powerful and not also see the power in the fact that many have left christianity to become atheist/agnostic?

"communists countries like red china where NO religion is allowed as kind of cultic"

There has been religion in China for a long time.

"I just wonder how two people who think we are all idiots for believing in a God. . . . "

When have I ever called believers in god idiots?

"BTW, BW did not answer the question about his non-faith-I will take it to believe he was raised in a non spiritual household."

I was raised in a loving household and went to Sunday school for a while. But I did not like it and my parents did not force me. We always spent lots of time outdoors, hiking, camping, water skiing, snow skiing, etc. During my middle years, late teens, early twenties I did lot's of "spiritual" research, read the bible, other books, but was always turned off by what was obviously man's attempts to control others by defining god and the religions man designed in the process. Most of my religious explorations were done after leaving home.

TATM says, "I know the truth. And guess what? It ain't what you think it is!"

It's obvious.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

""also, the truth is, not every athiest is 100% convinced that there is no God, otherwise there would be no such thing as prior athiests who now believe there is a God. Oneway"

WOW!!! that was a powerful statement,. . . . "

I am curious. How can you find that statement so powerful and not also see the power in the fact that many have left christianity to become atheist/agnostic?

"communists countries like red china where NO religion is allowed as kind of cultic"

There has been religion in China for a long time.

"I just wonder how two people who think we are all idiots for believing in a God. . . . "

When have I ever called believers in god idiots?

"BTW, BW did not answer the question about his non-faith-I will take it to believe he was raised in a non spiritual household."

I was raised in a loving household and went to Sunday school for a while. But I did not like it and my parents did not force me. We always spent lots of time outdoors, hiking, camping, water skiing, snow skiing, etc. During my middle years, late teens, early twenties I did lot's of "spiritual" research, read the bible, other books, but was always turned off by what was obviously man's attempts to control others by defining god and the religions man designed in the process. Most of my religious explorations were done after leaving home.

TATM says, "I know the truth. And guess what? It ain't what you think it is!"

It's obvious.

'Tis right! You do not have the mettle to question your philosopy. You have far more faith in your philosopy than I do mine.

[dodge]

Hello, Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries. What philosophy does Bluewater have that requires more faith than yours? What do you mean that he doesn’t have the “mettle” to question his philosophy?

[trainedobserver]

Oneway, Thank you for you honesty. I appreciate it a great deal, we get so little of that it seems. Question: Is there any other aspect of your life that you would use such a mechanism as evidence? Question: Are you familiar with the term "Magical Thinking?"

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Hello, Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries. What philosophy does Bluewater have that requires more faith than yours? What do you mean that he doesn’t have the “mettle” to question his philosophy?

The same one you have.

[Night_Light]

Bluewater..it doesn't have to be said( the word idiots)..it can just be implied through many of the writings of those who oppose religion-they think of religious people as backwards and also feel they keep society from advancing. I know many deists also come down hard on those who choose revealed religions-at first I found myself joining the band wagon but then learned to choose wisely when I should critisize and I usually do it when I feel it is a cultic situation...

As far as china- come on- No Buddhist is allowed any political, social, employment or economic advantages like an avowed atheist of the communist party. There is an impenetrable glass ceiling in atheist China to non atheists. Believers are treated as second class citizens by the elite atheists. Why does the Chinese army kill Buddhist priests in Tibet? Because these Buddhist priests stand in the way of the atheist Chinese and they don;t want them influening the youth... atheism is not by any means a perfect utopia..Tolerance is utopia..R

[bluewater2]

"Bluewater..it doesn't have to be said( the word idiots)..it can just be implied through many of the writings of those who oppose religion-they think of religious people as backwards and also feel they keep society from advancing."

I do oppose christianity is public school and government, but have never said that people who have these religious beliefs keep society from advancing.

I am convinced that I am actually talking to Franklin now and that you two share a TDS services proxy server. No problem. It is just unfortunate.

I think China is doing just fine.

[Night_Light]

Actually you are not talking to franklin- I resent that accusation and am a bit sick of it-I am no ones puppet and franklin and I do not "get off" talking about atheists and factnet-that is ridiculous. And maybe even sexist, if I must say so myself-just because I possess the skills to communicate in writing and have a powerful presense at times doesn't make me a man..

I also can see the harm in some religious circles(separation of church ans state is hugely important) and the harm in some of those who have followed atheism-like I said when we can be tolerant then we will find utopia-do I think that will happen...heavens NO.

"I think china is doing fine" BW

Yeah tell the Tibetians that and tell that to the people who are dying in darfur because china supplies the weaponry..

I do have tds-metrocom as my home server-how did you know that...weird

[dodge]

Greetings, Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries. As usual, you make statements that you can’t back up. You imply that it takes faith to not believe in a god. This is completely illogical. What does faith have to do with non-belief in something that is invisible, something that can’t be proved? You misuse the word “faith” in your propaganda rhetoric. Explain to me how it takes faith to not believe in gods, angels, devils and other supernatural beings.

[dodge]

Hello Night Light/Rachelengland -- You have been channeling Franklin again. One of his favorite subjects is to compare the horrors of totalitarian Communistic governments to atheism, and imply that non-belief in a god results in mass murders and repression. This was typical of his extreme rhetoric, one that you have recently adopted.

What is happening in China in relationship to Tibet is political, not religious. People are not being jailed or killed in the name of atheism; but because they are considered to be getting in the way of the goals of the established form of government there, a challenge to authority. The history of the China/Tibet conflict is long and complex and not simply an example of religious repression. Actually, religion is tolerated in China. There are around 200 million people of faith there who are Buddhists or Taoists. In a recent survey it was found that Christianity was on the rise, with over 40 million adherents among its citizens. The government of China allows churches, mosques and temples to exist. In an article at BBC, a survey demonstrated that there are about 300 million people who practice their faith in China.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6337627.stm

If you have a mind of your own, stop sounding like Franklin and using his catch phrases and rhetoric; making you seem like his clone or puppet.

[oneway]

Oneway, Thank you for you honesty. I appreciate it a great deal, we get so little of that it seems. Question: Is there any other aspect of your life that you would use such a mechanism as evidence? Question: Are you familiar with the term "Magical Thinking?"



Yes, TO, I'm familiar with magicl thinking. Of course, there are many forms of this. So let me try to guess how you might reason that magical thinking was what I was doing, then tell me if I'm close.

I'm having doubts about God. A thought crosses my mind, why not roll these dice, and if they all come up sixes, then God is indeed real. I roll the dice, they all come up sixes. How did they all come up sixes? Because God caused them to, because God is real.

Am I close?

[Night_Light]

Dodge china was an example-watch your words and how you address me on this forum, I have put up with enough of your abuse over the years and calling me franklin's puppet is uncalled for -the two of us are separate human beings and have different spiritual beliefs-we are discussing atheism and theism and some of it's flaws..China is still an abusive nation and it is common for it to come up in the topic at hand..

I think I am wise enough to know from spending many years in a full gospel church and private school what china's thoughts are on christianity and religion in general-it causes people to think and this form of atheism(maybe not yours) doesn't want free thinkers-I suppose you would say these are lies..get over it Will -your group is also not without failure..

China Confiscates Bibles From American Christians

Sunday, August 17, 2008

Associated Press



BEIJING — A group of American Christians who had more than 300 Bibles confiscated by Chinese officials when they arrived in China is refusing to leave the airport until they get the books back, their leader said Monday.
Pat Klein said he and three others from his Vision Beyond Borders group spent Sunday night at the airport in the southwestern city of Kunming after customs officers took the Bibles from their checked luggage.
"I heard that there's freedom of religion in China (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405187,00.html#), so why is there a problem for us to bring Bibles?" said Klein, whose Sheridan, Wyoming-based group distributes Bibles and Christian teaching materials around the world.
The Bibles were printed in Chinese, he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.
The move comes as China hosts the Olympics (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405187,00.html#) in Beijing, where false media reports last year claimed Bibles would be banned from the games. The state-run China Daily reported last month that 10,000 bilingual copies of the Bible would be distributed in the Olympic Village, which houses athletes and media.
In China, Bibles are legally printed at just one plant — the world's largest — run by a communist government-backed Christian association, and are available in many bookstores. But the officially atheistic government prohibits proselytizing and is worried that if the spread of religion goes unchecked, believers might ultimately challenge the Communist Party's authority.

A woman on duty at Kunming airport's customs office confirmed over the telephone late Sunday that 315 Bibles were found in the passengers' checked baggage.
The officer, who would only give her last name, Xiao, denied confiscating the Bibles. She said authorities were just "taking care" of them and provided no further details. She later said she was not authorized to speak to the media and referred questions to the national customs headquarters in Beijing, which did not answer phones on Sunday.
On Monday morning, Klein said Chinese officials had shown the group what they said were regulations that banned bringing Bibles into China, but that the documents were in Chinese. "We are waiting for them to come back with the law in English," he said.
Chinese officials had asked the Christians to leave the room at the airport where they spent the night, but Klein told the officials they did not want to go without the Bibles.
Klein said the customs officers had told him that they could each have one Bible for personal use, but no more than that. He said the officers had videotaped them and were insisting that they leave the airport.
"We don't want to go without taking those books. It cost us a lot of money to bring them here," Klein said. "They're saying that it's illegal to bring the Bibles in and that if we wanted to, we had to apply ahead of time for permission."
China faces routine criticism for human rights violations and repression of religious freedom. Religious practice is heavily regulated by the Communist Party, with worship allowed only in party-controlled churches, temples and mosques, while those gathering outside risk harassment, arrest and terms in labor camps or prison.
A Chinese Christian activist was detained Aug. 10, the opening weekend of the Olympics, on his way to a church service attended by U.S. President George W. Bush in Beijing. A rights group said later that the activist, Hua Huiqi, a leader of the unofficial Protestant church in Beijing, had escaped from police and was in hiding.
Police have denied any involvement in Hua's disappearance.

[Night_Light]

You know dodge...if you want to believe there is no god...more power to you-just don't pretend that a disbelief in god has never hurt anyone and that all atheists have been productive to society. When you can realize that you haven't arrived and that you can not 100% prove there isn't a god or creator, then maybe we can "find common ground" ..R

[dodge]

Hi, Night Light/Rachelengland -- When have I ever said that “all atheists have been productive to society?” For that matter, can you honestly say that all theists have been productive members of our society? Your argument has little meaning or relevance. I don’t know what you mean by I “haven’t arrived,” and as far as proving that there are no gods or a supernatural creator of the universe; I guess you don’t understand the philosophic concept that you can’t prove a negative. Prove to me that there is not a ‘46 Buick orbiting around the fourth planet of the Andromeda star system. Prove to me that there are not parallel universes that exist alongside ours that are invisible to us. Prove to me that George Bush is not a shape-shifting reptilian alien who only appears to be human. You can’t. Does this mean that all of these things really exist? No. The same goes for your god, angels, devils and other supernatural entities. You can’t prove that they have any existence outside of your mind. My proof that they don’t exist is that I have never seen any, and I don’t know of anyone who has…other than as ideas in one’s mind, and on the pages of ancient mythic books.

Prove to me that there are no trans-dimensional time-traveling tri-sexual dwarves. You can't, so I guess that means they really exist. Right?

[Night_Light]

"For that matter, can you honestly say that all theists have been productive members of our society"? Dodge


When have I ever said that? Your argument has little meaning or relevence here..you can not see oxygen and yet you know it exists because you are breathing? Just because you can not see something, you are telling me it doesn't exist. That is a weak foundation you are standing on.

As I quoted before" to believe or not to believe"-that is your option but just don't pretend to be any closer to the truth then someone who believes we actually have creator-you know that one particle you can't find that caused the big bang..

Goodbye dodge or whoever you are...

[dodge]

Night Light, you’re channeling Franklin again. He had this annoying habit of repeating what others wrote and throwing it back in their faces…like you just did. Funny how you’re sounding so much like him.

Your argument about oxygen is invalid because instruments can detect its presence in the atmosphere. Science can prove that oxygen exists. Supernatural beings only exist in the minds of those who believe in them, based on a faith in ancient books of mythology. The biblical god, Satan and angels belong right alongside Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, Odin, Thor and the Valkyries. They are images that human consciousness creates that give shape and form to ideas and forces of nature. It is my opinion that this is true, and that gods and other supernatural beings are projections based on an attempt to understand that which is unknown or feared. Religion is a way of overcoming the fear of death and what we call evil (why bad things happen to people). It’s also a way to blame others for the horrible things that happen, by projecting satanic purposes onto certain people, like Kenites; and saying that some people are Satan’s minions. Fact is, we are just flawed beings; self-destructive and inherently insane as a species; and neither god nor science is going to fix us and bring about a utopia on Earth.

As far as the “particle that caused the big bang” that you’ve brought up a few times, that you believe is a god, this is an example of what I was talking about earlier…a way of explaining that which you don’t understand by projecting mythological supernatural beings into those gaps where you lack knowledge. Science will probably get there in the future, explain how the singularity expanded into what we know of as “the universe,” that is if we don’t destroy ourselves first.

[trainedobserver]

Am I close?

Yes.

Is there any other aspect of your life where you use this to make a critical decision?

Also, are you familiar with the laws of probability and how this affects things like dice rolls or other seemingly random events?

Question: Can you define what you believe "God" to be and how you arrived at this understanding of it?

Thank you again for being honest and straightforward with me here.

[oneway]

Is there any other aspect of your life where you use this to make a critical decision?

Not that I'm aware of. For example, if someone were to say, speak of the devil and he will appear. I have no fear of that nor do I take it as literal.



TO, before I made that post regarding the rolling of the sixes, the truth is, i hadn't thought much about it in years.

I don't consider myself a prideful person. I can look at myself and admit mistakes. The more that I think about it, the more that I realize, it may have just been a matter of magical thinking. There's a good chance God didn't cause it to occur. Even so, it doesn't change a thing. My faith has increased over the years, and I know in my heart that God is real, and that the Holy Scriptures are His Word. There is no way that anyone will ever convince me that my faith is just a matter of magical thinking, even tho rolling all those sixes and believing God made it occur, may very well have been magical thinking. Yet again, it may very well have been God. I can honestly say that I'm not sure anymore, even tho at one time I was convinced that God caused it to happen.


Question: Can you define what you believe "God" to be and how you arrived at this understanding of it?


TO, I'll need time to think on this one, because it's somewhat difficult for me to explain. I've always had somewhat of a problem adequetly expressing my thoughts on paper, so to speak. But I'll try to come up with something for you. It may require a little time on my part to put the thoughts down on paper.

[trainedobserver]

a way of explaining that which you don’t understand by projecting mythological supernatural beings into those gaps where you lack knowledge.

You've just described superstition, mankind's earliest attempts at understanding the world around him.

[Night_Light]

Night Light, you’re channeling Franklin again. He had this annoying habit of repeating what others wrote and throwing it back in their faces…like you just did. Funny how you’re sounding so much like him.


Actually in that case I will have to agree! I have learned from his writings, that, that is a wonderful debate tactic-throwing your regurgitated nonsense back in your face-there is nothing wrong with picking a tip from people you respect. Again the idea that you believe people use god because of a lack of knowledge or intellect is idiotic(have you heard of benjamin franklin or thomas jefferson, surely you do not put yourself in their league) and comparing a powerful creator to a tri-sexual dwarf is also fooloish-it shows again your lack of proof that a creator doesn't exist-if you have to dig up crappy analogies. I am happy not being able to explain just how it all exactly happened-just as you are content believing in basically nothingness-or accidental happenings...

As far as some of your observations that China is a great empire, a well oiled machine or that cuba and north korea are fine with their atheist regime is so sicking I really don't even want to waste my time talking you-your ideas that life really just happened, that man has no real greatness or purpose could cause someone to put a bullet to their head..I really have no respect for someone such as yourself who finds it okay to heckle others about their religious beliefs on a continuous basis and hasn't any respect for those have decided there is a God..

here are just few links for those interested in seeing the effects "some" forms of atheism have on society.

http://www.religiousfreedom.com/wrpt/tibet.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6944750.stm

[Night_Light]

I will tell you this dodge-I sometimes look at my fingers as I am typing and wonder why in the world I stick up for religious people-most of them in all honesty drive me nuts(see the gay and homosexual threads here) but as a deist I see the need for religious freedom and just like I do not think all gays are unhappy, unsuccessful people- dying of aids, I do not think all religious people are unintelligent and hindering scientific or cultural growth... R

[dodge]

Night Light/Rachelengland/Franklin -- Your last post is filled with so many lies and misrepresentations of what I wrote I don’t know where to begin. Show me where I said that “China is a great empire.” You can’t, because that is a lie. Show me where I said that “Cuba and Korea are fine with their atheist regime.” You can’t, because that is another lie. I didn’t say that “people use god because of a lack of knowledge or intellect.” I didn’t even use the word “intellect.” I said that supernatural beings are projections based on an attempt to understand that which is unknown. I said that supernatural beings are projected into gaps where we lack knowledge. What you wrote is extremely dishonest, having me say things that I didn’t. Outrageous! Manipulative! Propagandistic!

What has religious freedom got to do with my opinions that gods, angels, devils and other supernatural beings exist only in the minds of those who believe in them? How does my point of view interfere with anyone’s right to believe whatever they want? Just as you have the freedom to believe in invisible gods, and in lakes of burning sulfur into which non-believers’ souls will be tossed where they will suffer for all eternity for not accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, I have the freedom to articulate my disbelief in what I consider to be mythology. My comments, my opinions, do not prevent or interfere with your inherent freedom to believe that there is a god that caused the big bang; even though I find that idea preposterous, naïve and primitive. How is it intolerant to express my opinions in a public forum? Does freedom only apply to those who express religious views? What about the rights of those who have no belief in imaginary gods?

[Night_Light]

Just as you have the freedom to believe in invisible gods, and in lakes of burning sulfur into which non-believers’ souls will be tossed where they will suffer for all eternity for not accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, I have the freedom to articulate my disbelief in what I consider to be mythology.dodge

You have the wrong girl if you think I believe in ANY of that-so you are the one creating lies, misrepresenting me and being manipulative but it is nothing new..You ask me if you have rights to disbelieve..why sure you do-I could care less but your out right disrespect toward others who are theists is uncalled for-it helps no one.



The question is can we live in peace as theists(yes deism is a form of theism for that guy who doesn't know the difference) and atheists along side each other..not yet!

[dodge]

Rachel -- In your allegations of my being disrespectful towards theists, you exhibit the same behavior that you accuse others of. This is not unusual, however; because most people fail to see in themselves what they project onto others. But it is hypocritical. When I share my opinions, I just sit here at my keyboard and compose. These are my beliefs and I do my best to articulate my thoughts. Was your description of my point of view as “regurgitated nonsense” called for? Next time you accuse others it would be best to look in a mirror and take stock of your own shortcomings and flaws, instead of painting others with your own colors. When you accuse someone of being disrespectful, it isn’t wise to act disrespectfully in return; because it makes you a hypocrite.

Having said that, I was using the “universal you” when I wrote that “you have the right to believe in invisible gods, and in lakes of burning sulfur,” etc…not you personally. You have the right to believe anything you want, and I am in no way saying that you don’t. When I experience someone making statements that they can’t back up with references or sources, like what Searchlight86, Dobman53, and The Apostolic Truth Ministries do all the time, I call them on it. When I see you making up quotes that you attribute to me which I have not written, I confront you with that; as I did above. That angers me, and I respond in like manner.

So what say we stop the hostility, Rachel, and attempt to communicate respectfully and accurately. For my part in this confrontational series of posts that we have been engaged in I apologize. I admit that sometimes I toss around blasphemous comments and pictures that I know upsets Christians, without remorse. You’re right that this is not helpful, and I will really try to contain myself. I guess that I’ve created a persona here on this forum that I play around with, but that’s not really who I am. I will try to change, and have respect for others and their beliefs; as hard as this is for me. Is there a chance for some sort of common ground? Maybe…once I transcend my ego and accept others for who they are in my evolution towards tolerance and respect for all my brothers and sisters around me. It's not going to be easy, being the cynical curmudgean that I am; but I'll try. Agreed?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Greetings, Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries. As usual, you make statements that you can’t back up. You imply that it takes faith to not believe in a god. This is completely illogical. What does faith have to do with non-belief in something that is invisible, something that can’t be proved? You misuse the word “faith” in your propaganda rhetoric. Explain to me how it takes faith to not believe in gods, angels, devils and other supernatural beings.

Faith:Noun
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs *the Protestant faith*

Faith: verb
BELIEVE, TRUST

Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary. Pay real close attention to meaning 3 under noun.

[dodge]

Mr. “The Apostolic Truth Ministries” -- You ask me to “pay real close attention to meaning 3,” which states that faith is “something that is believed especially with strong conviction…especially a system of religious beliefs.” My strong conviction that there are no gods, angels, devils or other supernatural beings is not a religious belief. In fact, it is the opposite. It requires faith to believe in invisible, non-corporeal, indemonstrable, mythological beings; but faith is not required for non-belief in what I consider figments of the imagination because they exist only in the minds of those who possess such faith.

Tell me, do you believe that your biblical god is the only god? There are many gods and goddesses in the religions of the world, and their adherents have faith in them. Are any of these non-biblical supernatural beings “real”, or are they figments of their imagination? If so, why shouldn’t your god be placed in the same category?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. “The Apostolic Truth Ministries” -- You ask me to “pay real close attention to meaning 3,” which states that faith is “something that is believed especially with strong conviction…especially a system of religious beliefs.” My strong conviction that there are no gods, angels, devils or other supernatural beings is not a religious belief. In fact, it is the opposite. It requires faith to believe in invisible, non-corporeal, indemonstrable, mythological beings; but faith is not required for non-belief in what I consider figments of the imagination because they exist only in the minds of those who possess such faith.

Tell me, do you believe that your biblical god is the only god? There are many gods and goddesses in the religions of the world, and their adherents have faith in them. Are any of these non-biblical supernatural beings “real”, or are they figments of their imagination? If so, why shouldn’t your god be placed in the same category?

Not one has nearly the faith you have.

[dodge]

Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries -- You wrote "Not one has nearly the faith you have." Faith in what?

[Night_Light]

Dodge, all is fine and I can clearly relate to what you are saying concerning many of those who make claims/statements and have noway of backing them up..

I too get frustrated at times and say wrong things or respond in haste and like you said it is because we are not face to face...and if we were I am sure that we would find much to agree on and have a good conversation..

R

[Night_Light]

TATM..try to make some sense here please...

[truth_child]

night light that will be the day when tatm makes sense at all

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries -- You wrote "Not one has nearly the faith you have." Faith in what?

So long as men worship the Caesars and Napoleons, Caesars and Napoleons will duly rish and make them miserable. Aldous Huxley (1894-1963).

I could not have said it better myself.

[truth_child]

so now tatm is worshiping ceasear and nepolian what will he believe in hitlar?

[dodge]

Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries -- I'll leave you to Truth Child and Turtle, because you three are obviously on the same level.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. The Apostolic Truth Ministries -- I'll leave you to Truth Child and Turtle, because you three are obviously on the same level.

Lightyears ahead of you?

[truth_child]

to the one who said they would leave it to me and turtle and tatm for we were on the same level dont caterize me please
the athesist and deist are totaly different from what i know i have a friend who is a deist and they are a likable person. i dont know any athesist however

[jargon631]

As long as theists keep their beliefs to themselves and out of science classrooms, I have no problem with them. On the other hand, the Christian type of theist is likely to consider it a duty to proselytize their belief in an attempt to convert others; and they all think that if you don’t believe as they do your soul is going to suffer forever immersed in burning sulfur…while their souls will be lifted into paradise where they will be kissing Jesus’ feet and adoring their god for all eternity in perpetual bliss. Where would this “common ground” be?


the common ground has nothing to do with religion...fd

[jargon631]

i dont understand the differenc between athesist and non thesist


i find non-theist to be less offensive and more precise...fd

[jargon631]

There isn't any. A non-theist a.k.a. atheist does not possess a belief in gods. A theist does hold a belief in a god or gods.

Most theists are atheists to all gods except their own chosen one or however many they believe in. An atheist is just an atheist to all. So most theists and non-theists are just one god apart.

Theist is generally used to describe the belief in a god that is actively engaged in the universe where a Deist, while holding a belief in a creative god, doesn't believe it is still actively participating in its creation.

As an atheist one of the main problems I face when considering theism or deism is the problem of successive creationism. If the universe is designed and created by some being or another it must be assumed that that creator was designed and created as well, and that creator had to be designed and created, and so on for infinity. I do not see any logical reason why if one assumes a creator that one would not assume a creator's creator and so forth.

It seems more likely that the universe has always been around in one form or another and always will. Since I am a witness to the universe itself and not a creator being it is easier for me to assume what I see has always been around rather than something I must imagine. Matter and Energy are constantly changing form from one to another (in reality they may very well be two aspects of the same thing) and are never lost or destroyed.

As a former theist (a Christian) I know there is no good answer for the "who created god" question other than to make the assumption god always did exist and as I have already said, it is easier for me to justify the previous continual existence of what I can actually witness rather than what I do not. That is just the honest truth about how I have come to think about it.

Some myths and religions do contain god origin stories although Judaism and Christianity do not. Most of these god origin stories involve other gods mating and producing lesser gods such as in the Egyptian religion while some have them springing whole from the elements.

In the pursuit of the truth of what we and the universe are I think it is important to not fall in love with any particular idea too much. In Science theories are by their very nature incomplete and subject to revision based on new evidence. The theory of gravity is incomplete for example. You would think something so basic and common to experience would be fully understood but it is not and science recognizes it as such.

As a former theist my reasons for abandoning belief in my particular god was the recognition that I could no longer justify them based on my experience and systematic consideration of the evidence. To say this was a traumatic experience downplays it a bit. What I did discover was that my mind was closed and incapable of considering much else until I abandoned beloved beliefs completely. Its just the way these things work.

The human brain is the most complexly organized matter that we have encountered to date. Endeavoring to understand ourselves seems an impossible task in light of this knowledge yet it is the only pursuit we stand a chance of accomplishing. Paradoxically it seems we will only understand the universe once we come to some understanding of ourselves. It is this understanding that I am interested in now, if this leads me in back in some way to a belief in a god then so be it, as of yet it has not.

The honest pursuit of truth is all that is worthwhile. To live in delusion, no matter how attractive or pleasing is futile and not worth our short lives. We are temporary creatures here for just a very, very brief period. We will be dead a very, very long time. Let us seek truth above all else.

Peace.


many thanks..well stated...fd

[jargon631]

Oneway, you’re as full of crap as most theists who post on internet forums. You make these statements that have no basis in reality, that you have no references or sources to support, and expect them to be taken seriously? Yeah, right...nine out of ten of us think you're talking out of your lower posterior. dodge


Now there is a sign of tolerance...



I will add to this one more thought-can we get along...as long as we aren't discussing God(lol) but I think there are many things that we can morally agree on and accomplish together..R


exactly...fd

[Night_Light]

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.

[jargon631]

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.


and jesus was only jewish on his mothers side of the family...p.j.o'rourke...fd

[truth_child]

JESUS was still a jew and in those day when a person was adopted they were a memeber of that family. now i dont know if joseph adopted JESUS or not but HE was still a jew and GOD chose the jewish people for hIM to come through