the trinity

[truth_child]

i know that the word trintiy is not in the bible but the teaching is. GOD in the begining said " LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE " now HE was no talking to angels but TO THE SON AND TO THE HOLY GHOST .. there are not three offices but THREE PERSONS UNITED AS ONE THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST

[turtle]

i know that the word trintiy is not in the bible but the teaching is. GOD in the begining said " LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE " now HE was no talking to angels but TO THE SON AND TO THE HOLY GHOST .. there are not three offices but THREE PERSONS UNITED AS ONE THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST

Truth child we debated this on the old forum til we were blue, do you remember. Boy we had a time and a half. Realizing we all really agreed. But I got a question for you. When I Isaiah is before the thrown he see two people, and the thrown in revelations there is really only one on the thrown. Would you mind explaining this if you can.

[truth_child]

look in rev again and you will find where that THE SON WENT TO THE ANCEINT OF DAYS (THE FATHER)

[turtle]

look in rev again and you will find where that THE SON WENT TO THE ANCEINT OF DAYS (THE FATHER)

Truth child I am not going to argue with you today. I refuse I say enough as it is. The ancient of Days does nto mean Father. And besides that it is applying one thrown one person. Yet we see Him as three person's existing as one. It is not taught this way in traditional churches, though.

[truth_child]

who then is THE ANCEINT OF DAYS ? and if you cant answer or dont want to then dont be on this thread i wasnt just talking to you, you know

[turtle]

who then is THE ANCEINT OF DAYS ? and if you cant answer or dont want to then dont be on this thread i wasnt just talking to you, you know

It is a reference to Christ coming back to earth again. Glory, Glory. Ancient of days is earth.

[truth_child]

excuse me i gave the refference as rev. but it is in daniel7:9 THE ANCEINT OF DAYS WA SITTINGON THE THRONE ( THAT IS GOD THE FATHER) VERSE 13 THE SON OD MAN (CHRIST)CAME TO THE ANCEINT OF DAYS. KJV now i dont know and dont care wht yor trans says but that is bible the kjv

[turtle]

excuse me i gave the refference as rev. but it is in daniel7:9 THE ANCEINT OF DAYS WA SITTINGON THE THRONE ( THAT IS GOD THE FATHER) VERSE 13 THE SON OD MAN (CHRIST)CAME TO THE ANCEINT OF DAYS. KJV now i dont know and dont care wht yor trans says but that is bible the kjv

Job 12:12 KJV
(12) With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.


Psalms 77:5 KJV
(5) I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.


Isaiah 23:7 KJV
(7) Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.


Isaiah 51:9 KJV
(9) Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?


Daniel 7:9 KJV
(9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


[COLOR=blue]Daniel 7:13 KJV
(13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
[/blue]

Daniel 7:22 KJV
(22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

OH boy. See you did do it arron, you proved me wrong. But see I was asking you a question you gave poor reference.

[turtle]

OH boy. See you did do it arron, you proved me wrong. But see I was asking you a question you gave poor reference.

Nope did not this was a dream during Nebucanezzer time, it was concerning that time period. Not God's time period. That is where a lot of confusion takes place.

Daniel 7:28 ESV
(28) "Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart."

[truth_child]

The Anceint Of Days Is The Father

[turtle]

The Anceint Of Days Is The Father

Yes I agree, but did you know that some groups believe this prophecy concern right then during nebucanezzer reign. Did you know that.

[truth_child]

yes some cant see into prophecy or the spiritual realm even when it is right before them

[turtle]

yes some cant see into prophecy or the spiritual realm even when it is right before them

You know what really gets me about pentecostals is their metaphors about green puk. I think they have been watching to many movies, Real prophecies and demonic problems are often describes colorfully, without ever once mention the truth of the matter. Metaphors are great unless the devil uses it to cause chaos and confusion.

[truth_child]

im sorry turtle i thought you were pentecostal no i dont beleive every novel i read about well like the end time series. i know that some is made up and probally want ever happen but i like what the bible says no scripture is of a private interpretation... so i jst take what the bible says about it all

[turtle]

im sorry turtle i thought you were pentecostal no i dont beleive every novel i read about well like the end time series. i know that some is made up and probally want ever happen but i like what the bible says no scripture is of a private interpretation... so i jst take what the bible says about it all

T.C. I think we all speak a private language with God. He speaks to us the way we understand it. You know like if I was a scientist, I would be looking through a microscope so to speak and seeing the beauty of God creation. If I love movies then I be looking from a movie position from sci fiction, to drama. If I look at it from a reality point of view then I will be looking hard at scripture. See God relating to us in on way giving us each a way to express it. But what happens when it is a public interpetation and define and someone does not know it, it because like a bunch of jargon. And that jargon cause people to be confused. It is sad, but that is what destroys a church often times, even if it is explained. I know some churches that have drama teams, and things like flag teams and things. Some churches feel this is taboo. I can symathize with that because some do not understand it. One reason they do not understand is because of a failure to explain it. With explanation comes much understanding.

It is like going to an opera, okay I have never been to one, but I have to admit I have heard opera music. And truth is that is not my cup of tea, but when one understands the drama in the opera the music words matter little. In other words whether you understand latin or whatever language it is done in, you can still understand the show. Same with Biblical principals. You can understand if the explanation of something is done in the language of the people, but if it is both done in greek and acted in greek one would never understand. You got jargon in the church with little understanding.

It is more of a problem in small churches then large ones. Because most large churches are multicultural to some degree. Most uneducated people though have a trouble with understanding multi cultures if they have never experience them. If I sing Jesus loves me to the tune Jesus loves me, but sing it in spanish as long as you know the words you still understand even though you do not speak spanish.

The language is then interpeted for you. Only problem is if one does not know the words in english and hears it in spanish and does not speak spanish it is greek.

Now what does that have to do with the Trinity well some people hear us talking about the trinity and we say God and some people say Father God, Jesus (God) and Holy Spirit (God). not understanding that the one is described in three person's. The language of saying

Revelation 5:7-8 KJV
(7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Who is the lamb in this verse Arron? Do you know what the hebrew defines the lamb as a lamb kin in stronges and in Thayer Definition:
1) a little lamb, a lamb.

And who is the king?

[truth_child]

THE LAMB IS JESUS THE ANCEINT OF DAYS IS THE FATHER i can understand that. i dont go to movies havent sice before i got saved. i do read christain novels and if i find they are not right then i stop and put them away. regardless of what you think i am not ignorant especilLY OF GODS WORD THE BIBLE i dont just read it i study it. and we have different people of different learnig degrees in our church if that is what you are talking about and we do belive in the trinity WHICH IS GOD THE FATHER... ONE PERSON... GOD THE SON... ONE PERSON... GOD THE HOLY GHOST ... ONE PERSON THESE THREE ARE ONE

[turtle]

THE LAMB IS JESUS THE ANCEINT OF DAYS IS THE FATHER i can understand that. i dont go to movies havent sice before i got saved. i do read christain novels and if i find they are not right then i stop and put them away. regardless of what you think i am not ignorant especilLY OF GODS WORD THE BIBLE i dont just read it i study it. and we have different people of different learnig degrees in our church if that is what you are talking about and we do belive in the trinity WHICH IS GOD THE FATHER... ONE PERSON... GOD THE SON... ONE PERSON... GOD THE HOLY GHOST ... ONE PERSON THESE THREE ARE ONE

I thought in end times the seal would open are you telling me the seals have been open from when Christ already came? I think not.

Remember Christ is already on the throne correct? If so sho is this lambkin that comes to open the seals. Okay maybe I am wrong and way off base. Revelations is not my forte, but neither is prophecy in general so help me out my pentecostal brother?

[truth_child]

where did i say that the sela are already open... no read it again in fact read the bible the seals are not opened till the end time when JESUS COMES AGAIN
and please dont refer to me in the sense you refer to me as "my pentecostal brother" it sounds as if you are making fun
prophecy is not my strong point either but i don know what the bible says

[turtle]

where did i say that the sela are already open... no read it again in fact read the bible the seals are not opened till the end time when JESUS COMES AGAIN
and please dont refer to me in the sense you refer to me as "my pentecostal brother" it sounds as if you are making fun
prophecy is not my strong point either but i don know what the bible says

T.C.
Let me ask you this who is on the throne? His Jesus already on the throne, if not then who is there now?

[truth_child]

whos JESUS are you referring to?.. i get the sense that you do not DO NOT BELEIVE IN THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST do you now just beleive that there are three offices? for the last time GOD IS ON HIS THRONE AND JESUS IS RIGHT NOW SEATED NEXT TO THE FATHER. AT THE END TIME WHEN JESUS JUDGES THE CHURCH FOR REWARDS HE WILL SIT ON HIS OWN THRONES you are one mixed up child

[turtle]

whos JESUS are you referring to?.. i get the sense that you do not DO NOT BELEIVE IN THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST do you now just beleive that there are three offices? for the last time GOD IS ON HIS THRONE AND JESUS IS RIGHT NOW SEATED NEXT TO THE FATHER. AT THE END TIME WHEN JESUS JUDGES THE CHURCH FOR REWARDS HE WILL SIT ON HIS OWN THRONES you are one mixed up child

Now you sound like a mormon that believes in three gods. You know they believe in each being separated and oneness is just as bad you think they were indian shape shifters involved.

Okay here is my take on it TC and my opinion. I like this illustration, creek, river and the ocean. All run into each other and are technically one, yet each part is separate. The stream is God the Father, The river is Jesus and the Holy Spirit is like the ocean. Over flowing and filling.

[truth_child]

turtle you havent answered my question do you beleive that the trinity IS THREE OFFICES OR NOT . if you beleive that THEY are three offices you are just like the oneness where as if you beleive (as i do ) IN THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST AND THAT THESE THREE ARE ONE THEN YOU ARE MAINSTREAM christian
oneness beleive that they are three offices. and no i don not beleive in three GODS THERE IS ONE ONE IN THREE PERSONS

[turtle]

turtle you havent answered my question do you beleive that the trinity IS THREE OFFICES OR NOT . if you beleive that THEY are three offices you are just like the oneness where as if you beleive (as i do ) IN THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST AND THAT THESE THREE ARE ONE THEN YOU ARE MAINSTREAM christian
oneness beleive that they are three offices. and no i don not beleive in three GODS THERE IS ONE ONE IN THREE PERSONS

I am tritarian TC and the fact remains this. No matter how you describe the trinity it is still the same. If you take three chemicals mix them together you still have one thing, now if you separate those chemicals they are nothing alike, yet together they are one united. Body of Christ is like that. Now you take water and turn it to ice, steam, or use it as liquid, it is still water. God is like that. See the attributes of God the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are they not the same.

John 14:7 KJV
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:10-12 KJV
(10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:16-17 KJV
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

One must remember Christ is also teaching His disciples how to pray in this last verse so others receive the Holy Spirit. This is a private discussion between the disciples and Him.

[turtle]

turtle i was referring to the book the hiding place and yes we have got off subject.. rev. teaches that who ever over come will sit with JESUS IN HIS THRONE even as HE SAT WITH HIS FATHER IN HIS THRONE and you didnt answer my question do you beleive the TRINITY IS JUST THREE OFFICES and i cant laugh at myself when things are being said that doesnt make sense

I have always believe that the Son sat beside his Father on the throne, I question this because only time we see it in revelation as such is when the lamb comes to break the seals. But the reference to the Lamb is the lamb that was slain. In other words reference to Christ only. But in revelation when you look at the judgment seat you only see one on the throne?

[truth_child]

you still have answerd my question turtle do you beleive that there are three offices or THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD

[turtle]

I believe the Bible Arron, bottom line.

[dobman53]

The tirinity is by far one of the all time most misunderstood concepts.

The three together do form the perfect God head. When Jesus said I came not to do my will, but the fathers who sent me. That right there blows many of these false conceptions right out the window. Yet in order for such persons to feel this make believe kinship with the rest of their gang they'll say the darndest things??

As I'm sure Arron (thuth child)will right now say the darndest things. Of course first he's got to make one point perfectly clear. He's a washed in the blood, died in the wool Penticostal. Who from just the mere utterance of Gibberish proves to all his like minded buddies he's SAVED!!! As they all believe the utterance is living proof that one is saved because if they weren't they wouldn't be able to Gibber Jabber like such pro's. But if you ask them is the utterance neccessary to be saved they'll say NO??? Now if that isn't the biggest bunch of Gibberish you ever heard I don't know what could ever possibly serpass it!!

DOB!

[dobman53]

Arron I've noticed your on another rant. I see your name at the bottom of vertually every post on Fact-net??? I see once again you've come to find it neccessary to tell all your thruth child and your saved??

[turtle]

The tirinity is by far one of the all time most misunderstood concepts.

The three together do form the perfect God head. When Jesus said I came not to do my will, but the fathers who sent me. That right there blows many of these false conceptions right out the window. Yet in order for such persons to feel this make believe kinship with the rest of their gang they'll say the darndest things??

As I'm sure Arron (thuth child)will right now say the darndest things. Of course first he's got to make one point perfectly clear. He's a washed in the blood, died in the wool Penticostal. Who from just the mere utterance of Gibberish proves to all his like minded buddies he's SAVED!!! As they all believe the utterance is living proof that one is saved because if they weren't they wouldn't be able to Gibber Jabber like such pro's. But if you ask them is the utterance neccessary to be saved they'll say NO??? Now if that isn't the biggest bunch of Gibberish you ever heard I don't know what could ever possibly serpass it!!

DOB!

I get the sad impression you are making fun of us and you are suppose to be an educator?? But see you ramble like the rest of everyone on here and still like to blow the lid off this thing with only speaking of only two part of the Trinity and not three. Why gives are you oneness? No I know better, but I am sure you have oneness friends.

[truth_child]

turtle no you still have answered my question please do so
to the one who said i was on another rant. what rant are they referring to now ... because i said im saved BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS well yes i am

[turtle]

turtle no you still have answered my question please do so
to the one who said i was on another rant. what rant are they referring to now ... because i said im saved BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS well yes i am

I answer you, I just never heard the word office before. I am trinterian One God head in three persons, that How I was taught it. That is why I love John 14 so much it explains it.

[truth_child]

if you have studied oneness you know about the offices and there are people on here who beleive in the offices
no either you do or dont beleive in three offices or THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD

[turtle]

if you have studied oneness you know about the offices and there are people on here who beleive in the offices
no either you do or dont beleive in three offices or THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD

Three offices sound like our judical, house and the president. Not um God. Come one explain this office thing once and for all.

[praetorian]

I am tritarian TC and the fact remains this. No matter how you describe the trinity it is still the same. If you take three chemicals mix them together you still have one thing, now if you separate those chemicals they are nothing alike, yet together they are one united. Body of Christ is like that. Now you take water and turn it to ice, steam, or use it as liquid, it is still water. God is like that. See the attributes of God the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are they not the same.

John 14:7 KJV
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:10-12 KJV
(10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:16-17 KJV
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

One must remember Christ is also teaching His disciples how to pray in this last verse so others receive the Holy Spirit. This is a private discussion between the disciples and Him.

Dear Turtle:

I wanted to respectfully request your take on the following.

I note above, that you quote, John 14:7, 10-12 and 16,17. However you do not quote verse 20. (I am using the NIV Bible for this as found on www.biblegateway.com)

I note, that John 14:9 and 10, states, “Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that [I am in the Father], and that [the Father is in me]? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.” (brackets added).

Now at first glance, taking Jesus’ simple and clearly stated words, without considering the context or reading from other scriptures in the Bible, one could easily, reasonably and fairly conclude that Jesus is indeed God! However, one only has to simply look a little further on in this same Chapter of John 14, to verse 20, where Jesus states “On that day you will realize that [I am in my Father], and [you are in me], and [I am in you].” Now, it appears that we have total and clear clarification, for what is expressed above in verses 9 and 10, with simple and clear language (without any outside sources) and without any doubt, we KNOW that his disciples (including us) are not “literally” in or inside Jesus, any more than Jesus is in or inside his Father, (since if you are using this verse to support this idea) but according to these verses, rather, they are, as we are (as supported above), “one” with Jesus, meaning “one” in purpose, and “one” in spirit (Please See 1 Corinthians 6:17) as Jesus is “one” in purpose and in spirit with his Father, therefore, it is not fair to use these verses to mean, that God and Jesus are the same person any more than his disciples, nor you and I are Jesus, or in Jesus literally, as one person or being! In the end if believe in the Trinity doctrine, then know that at the very least, if you are being fair, that the scripture you quoted above for this, does not state Jesus is God or God is Jesus in a literal way! (It also does not discuss the Holy Spirit here either for the third part of this doctrine).

It is interesting to note, that the NIV, states at 1 Corinthians 2:16, “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"[a] But we have the mind of Christ.” Please note two things; 1. Jesus was already back in heaven when these verses were inspired to be written and; 2 how this verse completely separates the mind of “the Lord” from the “mind of Christ” which would make no sense, if they are the same person (or spirit being) and have the same mind literally. Other Bibles use “the LORD” (in capital letters as a substitute for the Divine Name, God’s personal name) in order to separate and distinguish it from the “mind of Christ” showing two different minds from two separate spirit beings!

I welcome your thoughts.

TonyP

[truth_child]

in different places in the bible the trinity is CLEARLY TAUGHT

[praetorian]

TC:

It would be really kind if someone would be fair, by FIRST addressing the POST, and then adding a different element into the subject matter!!!

However, since you raised this, the first question I have for you (as you and I have danced this dance before) is: What do you mean by "CLEARLY TAUGHT?"

As Clearly Taught to me, implies simplicity like "I am going to take the trash out" and you would have no issues understanding this either. It is when religion gets involved, that the simple words "I am going to take the trash out" really mean you are going to the movies, or something else, as you add your take on things, from preconceived ideas, dogma, creeds and theology; thus, if you can truly, CLEARLY show the Trinity Doctrine from the Bible, show it, but don't interpret it as this is NOT Bible but you, and or someone else telling what the plain and simple words of the Bible means!!!!!

Now, please let Turtle or someone else, (you too) respond on point and NOT change the subject matter, K!!!!!

TonyP

[truth_child]

in geneesis where it says that GOD SAID LET US MAKE MAN INOUR OWN IMAGEHE was not talking to angels
in john where JESUS PRAYED TO HIS FATHER at the baptism ( gospels) when JESUS WAS BAPPTISED the heavens OPENED OR AT LEAST ENOUGH TO SEE THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVE THE SON WAS IN THE WATER THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN AS A DOVE ONE TWO THREE

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

I wanted to respectfully request your take on the following.

I note above, that you quote, John 14:7, 10-12 and 16,17. However you do not quote verse 20. (I am using the NIV Bible for this as found on www.biblegateway.com)

I note, that John 14:9 and 10, states, “Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that [I am in the Father], and that [the Father is in me]? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.” (brackets added).

Now at first glance, taking Jesus’ simple and clearly stated words, without considering the context or reading from other scriptures in the Bible, one could easily, reasonably and fairly conclude that Jesus is indeed God! However, one only has to simply look a little further on in this same Chapter of John 14, to verse 20, where Jesus states “On that day you will realize that [I am in my Father], and [you are in me], and [I am in you].” Now, it appears that we have total and clear clarification, for what is expressed above in verses 9 and 10, with simple and clear language (without any outside sources) and without any doubt, we KNOW that his disciples (including us) are not “literally” in or inside Jesus, any more than Jesus is in or inside his Father, (since if you are using this verse to support this idea) but according to these verses, rather, they are, as we are (as supported above), “one” with Jesus, meaning “one” in purpose, and “one” in spirit (Please See 1 Corinthians 6:17) as Jesus is “one” in purpose and in spirit with his Father, therefore, it is not fair to use these verses to mean, that God and Jesus are the same person any more than his disciples, nor you and I are Jesus, or in Jesus literally, as one person or being! In the end if believe in the Trinity doctrine, then know that at the very least, if you are being fair, that the scripture you quoted above for this, does not state Jesus is God or God is Jesus in a literal way! (It also does not discuss the Holy Spirit here either for the third part of this doctrine).

It is interesting to note, that the NIV, states at 1 Corinthians 2:16, “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"[a] But we have the mind of Christ.” Please note two things; 1. Jesus was already back in heaven when these verses were inspired to be written and; 2 how this verse completely separates the mind of “the Lord” from the “mind of Christ” which would make no sense, if they are the same person (or spirit being) and have the same mind literally. Other Bibles use “the LORD” (in capital letters as a substitute for the Divine Name, God’s personal name) in order to separate and distinguish it from the “mind of Christ” showing two different minds from two separate spirit beings!

I welcome your thoughts.

TonyP

I hope I can clarify for you. Let's just look at Jesus who He is. First we know He was from the beginning of time, If I need to go into detail I will. Okay

John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Now I am going to try very hard to explain this, but it is a bit hard to understand. First one must realize Christ is fully God and fully human. Just like I am fully part of my dad and part of my mom. The exception come when we realize that Christ is not just spiritual human but also spiritually God, because His parents. What support is there for this.

John 1:14 KJV
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

strongs
begotten

μονογενής monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).


Father

G3962 πατήρ
patēr
pat-ayr'
Apparently a primary word; a “father” (literally or figuratively, near or more remote): - father, parent.

Now do we know That the father is in us or that Christ is in us. That not hard to explain. Read the discussion of Nicodemus and Jesus.

John 3:5-16 KJV
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
(8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
(10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
(11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
(12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now the minute you believe and receive Christ the Spirit of God comes in your heart. You fleshly spirit is still there.

Revelation 3:20 KJV
(20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Romans 8:14-16 KJV
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
(16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 John 4:13 KJV
(13) Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


Galatians 4:6 KJV
(6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Forgive me if I have rerouted your scripture text to some others.

[praetorian]

in geneesis where it says that GOD SAID LET US MAKE MAN INOUR OWN IMAGEHE was not talking to angels
in john where JESUS PRAYED TO HIS FATHER at the baptism ( gospels) when JESUS WAS BAPPTISED the heavens OPENED OR AT LEAST ENOUGH TO SEE THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVE THE SON WAS IN THE WATER THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN AS A DOVE ONE TWO THREE


TC:

Now here you go again…..Let me try this another way. (First, you are taking away from the fact that I requested a commentary on a fair post on scripture, from someone else, on a specific matter-scripture, nothing more and nothing less—with that said)

Here goes: Genesis does in fact make clear that God was indeed speaking to someone else, not HIMSELF!!!! As if he had MPD’s. Job Chapter 38 makes clear that the angels shouted for joy at God’s creating the material universe, so your stating he was not speaking to angels, or other spirit beings like himself is NOT accurate. Also, take the assumptive position that God was indeed speaking ONLY to his Son Jesus hiding out from the angels, like they were out to lunch or something; first the scripture in Genesis does not state what you express it does, CLEARLY, but just the opposite, without your having to interpret it! PERIOD!!!!!!! Tell me, in whose likeness are the angels created since man was also created in God’s image and yet we are NOT God!!!!!

Your own words are against your position as you further state, “JESUS PRAYED TO HIS FATHER” meaning in simple words, Jesus was not praying to himself as the scripture plainly states so. I will prove it!!!! A person says, ‘Billy prayed to his Father’ John, who was a good man that died and went to heaven! You would easily understand that Billy is Not his Father John at all!!! Why, because NOTHING in the plain and simple words, express this at all!!!!!!

You have nothing but dogma, creeds and theology, teachings of men, that you believe in, so that you can force fit the scriptures into what you want them to mean!!!!

Again, your own words are against you, “THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVEN” I will prove it to you. “Billy’s Father spoke from his office’, (heaven etc) you would clearly know that Billy and his Father are not the same from the simple and plain words. Now, if you believe that from these simple words, that Billy is really is own Dad, the same person, and at the same time his own grandpa, so be it, but you cannot get that from those plain and simple words by themselves!!!!

That is braining washing at it’s best, when I say Go, and you understand that it means Stop!!!!! Or you don’t understand language at all!!!! The same with the Holy Spirit (as the Greek does not use the word Ghost).

If your own words are clear to you, I have a bridge to nowhere that I can let you have for a “steal” at 1 Million dollars and no, you will not have to actually “steal” it, but buy it!!! See how simple the words are!!!!!

TonyP

Now, let Turtle or someone address the post above, so that it does not get lost in your taking me to another place or places!!!! K

[praetorian]

Dear Turtle:

Thank you for your reply, however, now I can see how truly confused you are as will be demonstrated below.

Now, I note, you did not address the matter of my post on point, but instead chose to take me into another direction and while that is OK, it DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MATTER OF MY POST; I specifically brought up that if you were using scriptures at John 14, to support the Trinity, verse 20 of that same chapter makes clear that it does not.

Now let us turn to one of my favorite discussions and I will do my best to keep it simple for you!!!!! Here you take me to John 1:1-3 KJV.

I must ask you, with regards to John 1:1-3 have you ever done the research yourself personally, by going to a library and looking at a Greek text or have you done what most people do, especially on this board, and that is, take the word of someone else and make it your own?

First and foremost, at first glance and at best, these verses, (especially verse 1) if taken the way you want them to read, or as expressed here above, would mean that God and Jesus are the same person-being, or spirit creature, however, this verse does NOT support a Trinity as one needs three to support this and not two, as it does here! Second, if this were the only manner, this verse was rendered in all Bibles, then you again, would have at best, a duality, duo-ity, but not a Trinity.

Now, please take a note of the following English Bibles and how they translate John 1:1 or 1-3. Also take note that this is taken from the following WebPages in order for you to verify and validate this for yourself;

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/index.htm

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/name.htm

1. (IV) Authorized Version by Joseph Smith (1867)

“In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.”

2. (MNT) Moffatt New Translation (1922) George H. Doran Company (1922)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”

3. (NEB) New English Bible. (1970) “When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.”

4. (SGAT) An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed (1931) University of Chicago Press (1931), “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be.”

5. (WET) Wuest Expanded Translation (1961) Eerdmans (1961)
“In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father. All things through His intermediate agency came into being, and without Him there came into being not even one thing which has come into existence.”

6. The Authentic New Testament (1958) New American Library (1958) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

7. (BNT) Barclay New Testament (1969). "Collins (vol. 1 in 1968; vol. 2 in 1969)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.”

8. (CNT) Cassier New Testament (1989) William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “It was the Word that was at the very beginning; and the Word was by the side of God, and the Word was the very same as God.”

9. (ISV) International Standard (1998) Davidson Press (1998)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made”

10. (ONT) The Original New Testament (1985) Harper and Row (1985)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “'In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

11. The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1997) AFI International Publishers (1997) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55: 11; BERE**** 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim!”

12. (PRNT) The Restored New Testament 1914 John M. Pryse / John M. Watkins (1925) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The divine Thought inhered in the primordial Element, And proximate to the Unmanifested God was this divine Thought; And verily the divine Thought was the secondary God”

13. (REB) Revised English Bible (1989) Oxford and Cambridge Universities Presses (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was.”

14. (SV) Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) (1993) Macmillan (1993)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was.”

15. (TEV) Today’s English Version (1976) [The Good News Bible] (@) United Bible Societies (1976) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God.”

16. (UNT) The Unvarnished New Testament (1991) Phanes Press (1991) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was what the Word was.”

End of English Bible references.

Now, to be fair, there are many more English translations on this same web page, and elsewhere, that translate these verses similar or identical to the one you used, however, it goes to clearly establish that this is NOT a matter that is simply cut and dry, as at first glance!!!!!

In fact, reading these varying differences in translation from English Bible’s from around the world, should at the very least, raise legitimate issues and concern, that there must be something in the original Greek text that causes this to be so, as the reading of it one way, tells you that Jesus is God, while a reading of it in other ways shows that Jesus is NOT but rather instead, of the same form or substance of God but is NOT God. (NOTE: When I say form or substance, you would not argue if I said your child was like you, human, or humankind, and so with Jesus who is like God, in that he is a spirit or spirit creature just as God and the angels are).

Now let us get into this with greater detail. First note, that in the Greek/English, this would read, something like the following below;

In the Greek, (spelling somewhat phonetically in English) this scripture reads… “In the beginning was The (Ho) Word (Logos), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was with God (Ton Theon), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was God (Theos).” Please note the distinction between the first mention of God that in Greek it is “Ton Theon”, verses the second mention of God, as “Theos”, without the “Ton” before it. (More on this below) In Greek there are several words that translate into the English word “the” and “O” (pronounced HO) and “TOV” (pronounced TON) are two of them!

It is interesting to note that many so-called Christian translators take the liberty to omit the Greek word, Tov, making like it does not exist, usually by putting a – (dash) under it in English, like it doesn’t mean anything, but it is a real word in the Greek. In Greek this TOV (not a dash) is another word for our English word “The” like Ho is also The. And by keeping it blank, rendering it meaningless, serves to confuse, God (Theos) with God (Ton Theon), with theos and theon being subjugated words for God in Greek, though which are distinguished by the Greek word “Tov”, for “the” in English; in other words, there is a difference between “God” and “The God”.

Now that you have this information before you, why don’t you do some real research and do some soul searching to understand why this is so, but again, like in John 14, what you refer me to, DOES not support a Trinity!!!!!

TonyP

[truth_child]

no you explain how three were at the baptisim if there are only ONE of THEM AND when i say this i am talking about the trinity

[turtle]

Tony P

Answer is under your question.

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

Thank you for your reply, however, now I can see how truly confused you are as will be demonstrated below.

Now, I note, you did not address the matter of my post on point, but instead chose to take me into another direction and while that is OK, it DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MATTER OF MY POST; I specifically brought up that if you were using scriptures at John 14, to support the Trinity, verse 20 of that same chapter makes clear that it does not.

Now let us turn to one of my favorite discussions and I will do my best to keep it simple for you!!!!! Here you take me to John 1:1-3 KJV.

I must ask you, with regards to John 1:1-3 have you ever done the research yourself personally, by going to a library and looking at a Greek text or have you done what most people do, especially on this board, and that is, take the word of someone else and make it your own?

First and foremost, at first glance and at best, these verses, (especially verse 1) if taken the way you want them to read, or as expressed here above, would mean that God and Jesus are the same person-being, or spirit creature, however, this verse does NOT support a Trinity as one needs three to support this and not two, as it does here! Second, if this were the only manner, this verse was rendered in all Bibles, then you again, would have at best, a duality, duo-ity, but not a Trinity.

Now, please take a note of the following English Bibles and how they translate John 1:1 or 1-3. Also take note that this is taken from the following WebPages in order for you to verify and validate this for yourself;

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/index.htm

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/name.htm

1. (IV) Authorized Version by Joseph Smith (1867)

“In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.”

2. (MNT) Moffatt New Translation (1922) George H. Doran Company (1922)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”

3. (NEB) New English Bible. (1970) “When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.”

4. (SGAT) An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed (1931) University of Chicago Press (1931), “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be.”

5. (WET) Wuest Expanded Translation (1961) Eerdmans (1961)
“In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father. All things through His intermediate agency came into being, and without Him there came into being not even one thing which has come into existence.”

6. The Authentic New Testament (1958) New American Library (1958) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

7. (BNT) Barclay New Testament (1969). "Collins (vol. 1 in 1968; vol. 2 in 1969)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.”

8. (CNT) Cassier New Testament (1989) William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “It was the Word that was at the very beginning; and the Word was by the side of God, and the Word was the very same as God.”

9. (ISV) International Standard (1998) Davidson Press (1998)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made”

10. (ONT) The Original New Testament (1985) Harper and Row (1985)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “'In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

11. The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1997) AFI International Publishers (1997) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55: 11; BERE**** 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim!”

12. (PRNT) The Restored New Testament 1914 John M. Pryse / John M. Watkins (1925) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The divine Thought inhered in the primordial Element, And proximate to the Unmanifested God was this divine Thought; And verily the divine Thought was the secondary God”

13. (REB) Revised English Bible (1989) Oxford and Cambridge Universities Presses (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was.”

14. (SV) Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) (1993) Macmillan (1993)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was.”

15. (TEV) Today’s English Version (1976) [The Good News Bible] (@) United Bible Societies (1976) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God.”

16. (UNT) The Unvarnished New Testament (1991) Phanes Press (1991) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was what the Word was.”

End of English Bible references.

Now, to be fair, there are many more English translations on this same web page, and elsewhere, that translate these verses similar or identical to the one you used, however, it goes to clearly establish that this is NOT a matter that is simply cut and dry, as at first glance!!!!!

In fact, reading these varying differences in translation from English Bible’s from around the world, should at the very least, raise legitimate issues and concern, that there must be something in the original Greek text that causes this to be so, as the reading of it one way, tells you that Jesus is God, while a reading of it in other ways shows that Jesus is NOT but rather instead, of the same form or substance of God but is NOT God. (NOTE: When I say form or substance, you would not argue if I said your child was like you, human, or humankind, and so with Jesus who is like God, in that he is a spirit or spirit creature just as God and the angels are).

Now let us get into this with greater detail. First note, that in the Greek/English, this would read, something like the following below;

In the Greek, (spelling somewhat phonetically in English) this scripture reads… “In the beginning was The (Ho) Word (Logos), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was with God (Ton Theon), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was God (Theos).” Please note the distinction between the first mention of God that in Greek it is “Ton Theon”, verses the second mention of God, as “Theos”, without the “Ton” before it. (More on this below) In Greek there are several words that translate into the English word “the” and “O” (pronounced HO) and “TOV” (pronounced TON) are two of them!

It is interesting to note that many so-called Christian translators take the liberty to omit the Greek word, Tov, making like it does not exist, usually by putting a – (dash) under it in English, like it doesn’t mean anything, but it is a real word in the Greek. In Greek this TOV (not a dash) is another word for our English word “The” like Ho is also The. And by keeping it blank, rendering it meaningless, serves to confuse, God (Theos) with God (Ton Theon), with theos and theon being subjugated words for God in Greek, though which are distinguished by the Greek word “Tov”, for “the” in English; in other words, there is a difference between “God” and “The God”.

Now that you have this information before you, why don’t you do some real research and do some soul searching to understand why this is so, but again, like in John 14, what you refer me to, DOES not support a Trinity!!!!!

TonyP

You love to frustrate don't you. Now actually I am not frustrated.

John 14:20 KJV
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

I think I explained this quite will in my last post concerning the question. God spirit indwells us with ur spirit. In other words our spirit does not become God but He sups with us or indwells us.

Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV
(17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
(18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
(19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

In order for Him to indwell we must remember who is indwelling.

John 14:26 KJV
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now why do pentecostals before you even ask it say one must be baptized. One needs to be aware of who the Holy Spirit is beyond the fact He in dwells and teaches us. Only way to get that is though experience. Now hold on. Something most do not realize on the day of Pentecost they received what boldness to speak. How many people get saved, and lack boldness. Quite to many. Why is that. Why is there all of a sudden no strength to the fire. Simple they know little about the Holy Spirit. HOly Spirit is seldom taught in some groups. many do not know they have power in Jesus Name, or that if we ask we will receive, yet make sure that is in context to other scripture before naming and claiming.

Do we not in general use the term ghost or spirit meaning the same. But using the word Holy makes it God not just any spirit or ghost.

[truth_child]

tto the one who said end of english trans... i see you did not mention the kjv at all

[praetorian]

Dear Turtle:

For the second part of your Post:

You mention you are “going to try very hard to explain this, but it is a bit hard to understand.” God is not a God of disorder, or confusion, so why do you take the position that he is, because this is what you are doing!!!!!

Please read your own words, “First one must realize Christ is fully God and fully human” wherein you quote someone else’s dogma that you bought into, but where is the Biblical support for this as he ones you used, simple do not work at all!!!!!

You then attempt to make an analogy of this by stating, “Just like I am fully part of my dad and part of my mom” and reply, that being “part” of something is not the same as being the something and further submit to you, that your analogy supports the opposite of what you assert, as I you may indeed be fully part of your mom and dad, (as you are both human creatures) but you are not the same person as you mom and dad period!!!!

You then express that “The exception come when we realize that Christ is not just spiritual human but also spiritually God, because His parents.” And I fully agree, and so do the Holy Scriptures, it is your making them (God and Jesus) the same person when they are not and clearly spoken of in scripture innumerable times as being separate!!!! These are facts!!!!

You then go onto discuss that Jesus is “only begotten”, of the Father, do you really know what you are saying as this very statement (ONLY-Begotten) clearly undermines what you are attempting to prove as God has never been begotten and Jesus has!!!!!!!!

Now here is something that at the very least should interest you. In John 1:18, the majority of Greek manuscripts for the NT (over one thousand) use the words in the Greek, that appropriately translates to “only begotten God” thus why the American Standard, and several others use these words at this scripture , with the minority of Greek manuscripts, into the few hundred using “only begotten son” yet the NIV and others translate this shockingly and misleadingly as “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” [For footnotes see www.biblegateway.com or the NIV itself] This verse does not even come close to any Greek NT manuscript, and clearly avoids rendering it this way, as this clearly establishes that Jesus had a beginning, as calling him “only begotten” whether God or Son, makes this point crystal clear or you would have to change definitions for these words in English and all languages to avoid it! You can easily prove this by getting a hold of a Jay P. Green/Hendrickson Hebrew and Greek Interlinear Bible.

Further regarding this same verse, I refer you to The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament by Alfred Marshall, published by Regency Reference Library, Zondervan Publishing House. In this Greek manuscript it uses, under the literal translation, “only begotten God” while in the English column to the left, translates it as “only begotten Son” (different words-God/Son) showing clear bias of interpretation, by not translating what the Greek inspired writer here, the Apostle John wrote!

Finally on this, I provide you here with a link for downloading a free online Hebrew and Greek manuscript at; http://www.scripture4all.org/, that also shows under the Greek a direct translation of “only generated God” (the word in Greek translated generated is also translated as only begotten), and yet in the English column, when translating this text it chooses to use “only begotten Son” also altering the text. Who is doing the covering up here in all this to make people believe in the lies you and others here believe in?

I agree with the reference you point me to at Strong’s, which serves contradict you, as it completely severs to support the above, that Jesus was created, the only begotten Son or God, but God the one who only begot Jesus was and has never been created!!!

Now here you jump subject matter again on being Born Again along with several other subject matters, that blend together discussing other spiritual matters that in the end, DOES NOT SUPPORT your position that Jesus is God as it is clear that Jesus created, had a beginning whereas God has not!!!!!

What I express above is without a doubt the FACT on this particular subject matter, and I submit that if you leave the plain and simple words of the Bible and make it subordinate (make second) to mans teachings, such dogma, creeds, theologies, exegesis and opinions you can make the Bible say anything you want, however you will NOT be able to support your beliefs in the simple and plain words of the Bible, by itself!!!!

Respectfully submitted,

TonyP

[praetorian]

tto the one who said end of english trans... i see you did not mention the kjv at all

TC:

That is the POINT!!!!! You make decisions based on your “feelings” to use only one Bible! Now, if other Bible's state something different, where do you go, TC to get the matter or truth explained to you!!!!!!

If you hang your hat on a translation, (or version which is NOT a translation of the original Greek and Hebrew) and ignore the others, you, have made a choice to be ignorant, and thus your decisions or beliefs, sad to say are ignorant as well!!!!!

If there was ONLY ONE WAY to express John 1:1, we would not be having this discussion and other Bible’s would not be different, but they don’t agree, why?????? If all Bibles agreed with the KJV (Get it a VERSION NOT A TRANSLATION) then you would have something to support you, but in the end, the POINT remains, that the actual Bible Texts are often manipulated BEFORE you get your Bible to support teachings that are not clearly expressed in the Greek and Hebrew, and fortunately for you and I, all of us, we have these manuscripts to do our own research!!!!!

If you love your God and your life, check this out for yourself or you can never say you have NOT been deceived, as you truly do not know!!!

In the end, you nor I are qualified scholars to pick and choose and take the position as to who is wrong or right, with Bibles, that is why I presented the information above for you to personally investigate it, and not take my word, nor anyone else's word on matters, that pertain to your everlasting well being!!!!

TonyP

[truth_child]

any one with sense can see that there are THREE in the trinity. three PERSONS AND NOT THREE OFFICES AND NOT THREE GODS EITHR

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

What I express above is without a doubt the FACT on this particular subject matter, and I submit that if you leave the plain and simple words of the Bible and make it subordinate (make second) to mans teachings, such dogma, creeds, theologies, exegesis and opinions you can make the Bible say anything you want, however you will NOT be able to support your beliefs in the simple and plain words of the Bible, by itself!!!!

Respectfully submitted,

TonyP

Actually I find your last statement humorous. Simple fact you can just use scripture but people seem to want more these days of understanding the background of something. Fact is I have just read the Bible without references. so as many scholars and educators before me. Many without the knowledge or text beyond a Bible. Many have gotten saved in Hotel rooms by just reading the Bible. You put only the Bible in the hands of people who do not have one and they need no other text. True it might take a little longer to come to the same conclusions, but by the Holy Spirit it will be revealed who He is.

If an eight year old or younger can get saved by just reading and no other knowledge but the rememberance of scripture anyone can. But to do indepth study like is discussed on this board it takes tools that often regular folks don't have access to, except for now with the internet.

It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture.

Look up Hulda the prophetess. She sat and explain scripture. By just using scripture. Actual Tony you could of gone to my site and looked under love lessons and it is on the gospel of John. They got tied into the Holy Spirit study. So you need to read it to get chapters 14-16

[praetorian]

You love to frustrate don't you. Now actually I am not frustrated.

John 14:20 KJV
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

I think I explained this quite will in my last post concerning the question. God spirit indwells us with ur spirit. In other words our spirit does not become God but He sups with us or indwells us.

Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV
(17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
(18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
(19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

In order for Him to indwell we must remember who is indwelling.

John 14:26 KJV
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now why do pentecostals before you even ask it say one must be baptized. One needs to be aware of who the Holy Spirit is beyond the fact He in dwells and teaches us. Only way to get that is though experience. Now hold on. Something most do not realize on the day of Pentecost they received what boldness to speak. How many people get saved, and lack boldness. Quite to many. Why is that. Why is there all of a sudden no strength to the fire. Simple they know little about the Holy Spirit. HOly Spirit is seldom taught in some groups. many do not know they have power in Jesus Name, or that if we ask we will receive, yet make sure that is in context to other scripture before naming and claiming.

Do we not in general use the term ghost or spirit meaning the same. But using the word Holy makes it God not just any spirit or ghost.

Dear Turtle:

You completely ignored my post. Double Wow. I don’t love to frustrate anything, but I do not dodge the issue as you clearly do! It is you that mentioned “frustration” not I. My posts above stand on their own merit, and are indelibly available for anyone to read side by side or one after the other with yours and others on this site!

You don’t frustrate me either, you are rather assuming! It is you that in your words deny being frustrated!!! LOL

As to John 14:20, how can you miss this point; Jesus clearly tells his disciples, that “I am in the Father” and also, that they, his disciples, (please read this carefully and slowly) “ye are in me” meaning in plain and simple English that Jesus disciples are in him-Jesus, and Jesus is in his Disciples, but that does not mean that his disciples and Jesus are the same PERSON!!!!

Your not using your mind, or you don’t speak English, but that is not what the plain and simple express (that they are the same person). Please, note that in order to establish what Jesus meant previously about him being in his father and visa-versa, I pointed out that you conveniently left out verse 20, showing what Jesus meant by those words, and that it does not support that they are the same spirit creature!!!! Come one!! LOL, I submit to you that anyone with an 8th grade education in English can see and readily understand this!!!!

And no, you did not explain this in your previous post, you even ignored verse 20, that is why I pointed it out to you in the first place!!!! The remainder of your post has nothing to do with supporting your false pagan based belief that Jesus is God!!!

Now here you leave the subject matter further, in order to go onto to discuss Pentecostal Doctrines, note, again, that besides changing the subject matter, it is critical to note that among the Pentecostals, there are many groups that conflict between and among themselves, so why you do this, is beyond me as it has nothing to do with what we discuss here, in this string!!!!!

As to being Baptized as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 28:18, 19, you should quote that within the context, as it clearly states, that we as followers of Christ must preach and make disciples which is then evidenced by their getting Baptized, and so again, this does not mean or prove that God is a Trinity either! It does not state that at all!!!!!!! It is no different than if I express to you, “Stop in the name of the Law, or I’ll shoot”, it is representative of authority!!!!

I am fully aware of what the Bible truly teaches about the Holy Sprit and given your responses, you are very much confused!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

any one with sense can see that there are THREE in the trinity. three PERSONS AND NOT THREE OFFICES AND NOT THREE GODS EITHR

There is nothing more to say about this. However, I must state that even enemies recognize when someone brings something to their attention that they did not previously know, I and know, that you did not remotely have in your mind, (same with Turtle) the things I bring up on this board regarding John 1:1, and Christ being the only begotten God/Son!

You are using your feelings to respond, I have used the Bible!!!! That is the difference between us and always will be!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Actually I find your last statement humorous. Simple fact you can just use scripture but people seem to want more these days of understanding the background of something. Fact is I have just read the Bible without references. so as many scholars and educators before me. Many without the knowledge or text beyond a Bible. Many have gotten saved in Hotel rooms by just reading the Bible. You put only the Bible in the hands of people who do not have one and they need no other text. True it might take a little longer to come to the same conclusions, but by the Holy Spirit it will be revealed who He is.

If an eight year old or younger can get saved by just reading and no other knowledge but the rememberance of scripture anyone can. But to do indepth study like is discussed on this board it takes tools that often regular folks don't have access to, except for now with the internet.

It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture.

Look up Hulda the prophetess. She sat and explain scripture. By just using scripture. Actual Tony you could of gone to my site and looked under love lessons and it is on the gospel of John. They got tied into the Holy Spirit study. So you need to read it to get chapters 14-16

Dear Turtle:

What a coincidence! Now, which one’s humor makes them more Biblical?

As to being saved, why would Jesus state what he did in Matthew 24:13, if it is as you “feel?” Wow, I have dogma, dogma for sale cheap too!!!!

As to the spirit or Holy Sprit, 1 John 4:1, makes clear the acid test, for those claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit to find out which one is truly from God, not feelings!!!!

My Dearest Turtle, if you want a reply from me on the Holy Spirit, start by providing me with the replies to my post, first as ignoring them, is not only discourteous, but unchristian; so what you are you afraid of?

The study of the Bible, is absolutely necessary, as 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17, shows in order to correct wrong, bad teachings, not feelings of yours or mine!!! God’s word is easy for people of all backgrounds to understand, it is people who believe in the garbage you do, that makes it complicated, forcing one to accept one’s word for things rather than God’s own words!!!!

I did this research myself, over 30 years ago, at libraries, and bought books, etc. before there was an internet, so there is no excuse for one who is humble enough to accept what the Bible really teaches over man’s or woman’s opinions!!!

Now you make a very valuable point, that makes sense, “It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture” and I submit to you that if you take the time to do the research, you will find that what the Bible teaches, often conflicts with what is taught in Christendom that people everywhere for years have taken for granted!!!!

I do not use other people’s thoughts or exegesis to tell me what is plainly and simply stated in the Bible, by my God and Father or I might become a follower of Hulda etc! This is exactly what the Bible warns against!!!!

Sadly, the end of your post does not make sense, though I understand it is your opinion!!!!

God’s love does indeed encompass us all, however, we know about him, his love
and his Son, from the Bible, that I submit to you, is NOT what you and many others believe, as you go to other outside sources for this information as though God’s word is not complete, or is so poorly written that he needs humans to help him explain what He had inspired others to write for our benefit!!!! This makes no sense!!!!

Come on! This may be the God you and others on this Board worship, but it is NOT the God I worship. I worship the God of the Bible, through his illustrious Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Tony?

[praetorian]

Answer is under your question.

Here is my response to what you refer to as a reply:

Daniel 5:27!

TonyP

[turtle]

Here is my response to what you refer to as a reply:

Daniel 5:27!

TonyP

May defense I am still learning and prone to error, but I like to know what error I did.

[praetorian]

May defense I am still learning and prone to error, but I like to know what error I did.


Please take the time to read the exchanges carefully, one at a time, before firing off, rapid fire, replies and you will catch it!

In the end, the posts were provided in order to reason with some here, and provide food for thought, about what they believe verses, what the Bible really teaches, on it's own, without the aid of any man or women (human) telling us what it means after God inspired it’s writing!

In effect, the Bible interprets itself! What else would you expect from a book from our Wonderful, omniscient Heavenly Father and God, who is also the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as so simply and plainly stated at, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, and 1 Peter 1:3!

Cheers!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Please take the time to read the exchanges carefully, one at a time, before firing off, rapid fire, replies and you will catch it!

In the end, the posts were provided in order to reason with some here, and provide food for thought, about what they believe verses, what the Bible really teaches, on it's own, without the aid of any man or women (human) telling us what it means after God inspired it’s writing!

In effect, the Bible interprets itself! What else would you expect from a book from our Wonderful, omniscient Heavenly Father and God, who is also the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as so simply and plainly stated at, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, and 1 Peter 1:3!

Cheers!

TonyP

Note: All of these scriptures were inspired by God, after Jesus returned to Heaven!!!

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

What a coincidence! Now, which one’s humor makes them more Biblical?

As to being saved, why would Jesus state what he did in Matthew 24:13, if it is as you “feel?” Wow, I have dogma, dogma for sale cheap too!!!!

As to the spirit or Holy Sprit, 1 John 4:1, makes clear the acid test, for those claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit to find out which one is truly from God, not feelings!!!!

My Dearest Turtle, if you want a reply from me on the Holy Spirit, start by providing me with the replies to my post, first as ignoring them, is not only discourteous, but unchristian; so what you are you afraid of?

The study of the Bible, is absolutely necessary, as 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17, shows in order to correct wrong, bad teachings, not feelings of yours or mine!!! God’s word is easy for people of all backgrounds to understand, it is people who believe in the garbage you do, that makes it complicated, forcing one to accept one’s word for things rather than God’s own words!!!!

I did this research myself, over 30 years ago, at libraries, and bought books, etc. before there was an internet, so there is no excuse for one who is humble enough to accept what the Bible really teaches over man’s or woman’s opinions!!!

Now you make a very valuable point, that makes sense, “It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture” and I submit to you that if you take the time to do the research, you will find that what the Bible teaches, often conflicts with what is taught in Christendom that people everywhere for years have taken for granted!!!!

I do not use other people’s thoughts or exegesis to tell me what is plainly and simply stated in the Bible, by my God and Father or I might become a follower of Hulda etc! This is exactly what the Bible warns against!!!!

Sadly, the end of your post does not make sense, though I understand it is your opinion!!!!

God’s love does indeed encompass us all, however, we know about him, his love
and his Son, from the Bible, that I submit to you, is NOT what you and many others believe, as you go to other outside sources for this information as though God’s word is not complete, or is so poorly written that he needs humans to help him explain what He had inspired others to write for our benefit!!!! This makes no sense!!!!

Come on! This may be the God you and others on this Board worship, but it is NOT the God I worship. I worship the God of the Bible, through his illustrious Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Tony?

How do you think one should go about trying someone? I mean seriously that is vague in 1 John 4.

Well let's see what else does that passage say? So go for it Tony? and let's see how you respond.

Actually I love I John for the reason of knowing who the anti christ is as well as knowing who brothers and sisters in Christ are. But what about I Corinthians 12:3?

It makes me made to hear Christ name taken in vain. But it is a common practice among heathens.

[truth_child]

GOD NAME hould never be taken in vain but im afraid we say things some time not cussing but things that are vain words that we sahll give account for in the day of judgement

[turtle]

GOD NAME hould never be taken in vain but im afraid we say things some time not cussing but things that are vain words that we sahll give account for in the day of judgement

Arron, how do you deal with I John 2:1, 2,

[truth_child]

i beleive it teaches that we are NOT to sin BUT if we do we have a covenant with THE FATHER and that covenant is JESUS CHRIST and that JESUS paid the proce for our sins and not for yours and mine but for the sins of the whole world
how do you deal with it

[truth_child]

oh and one more thing before you ask i did not say that we cussed or anythign but that we said things which had no meaning and were as wind that blows away

[turtle]

i beleive it teaches that we are NOT to sin BUT if we do we have a covenant with THE FATHER and that covenant is JESUS CHRIST and that JESUS paid the proce for our sins and not for yours and mine but for the sins of the whole world
how do you deal with it

Did he pay for sins for today as well as the sins before we got saved?

[truth_child]

absolutly HE PAID FOR ALL our sins past preasent and furture we only have to acept HIS PAYMENT BY FAITH IN HIS BLOOD

[praetorian]

How do you think one should go about trying someone? I mean seriously that is vague in 1 John 4.

Well let's see what else does that passage say? So go for it Tony? and let's see how you respond.

Actually I love I John for the reason of knowing who the anti christ is as well as knowing who brothers and sisters in Christ are. But what about I Corinthians 12:3?

It makes me made to hear Christ name taken in vain. But it is a common practice among heathens.


Dear Turtle:

First and foremost, to date, you have completely chosen to ignore the support I gave you about 16 other English Bibles on John 1:1 as well as the manuscript references provided, not to mention one you can gain access to online for FREE (a third) and the scriptures written after Jesus returned to heaven, where they clearly state, “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus”!!!! You also failed to address many other points, and have instead chosen to change, or alter subject matter, as though I never posted!!! Bravo, all you do, is let people see for themselves, that you choose to ignore and respond to things selectively, however this board, serves as indelible evidence against you and others here, that what is posted is not going to disappear, nor is it invalidated because you choose to ignore it! With that said, I will respond your post below since I find it shocking that as a believer in God and the Bible, you do not know this, but choose to call it vague!

Fortunate for you, we again have the Bible as the authority to address questions like this and not one’s personal opinion. As to your “opinion” that it is vague, let us see how accurate this is below.

1 John 4:1, clearly states three things; 1. That we should not just “believe” every spirit, or testimony (we call that blind credulity) and that instead we are to: 2. Test them, why; 3. Because of the prevalence of “many” false prophets”. How is this vague?

Now, how can we test someone’s testimony or spirit, as to whether it the “truth”, they are relaying, claiming it originates with God? There can be only ONE way, and that is, to test it against what is clearly stated in the Bible, as this is where we learn about God, his Son and Salvation in the FIRST PLACE!!!!! Are you serious?????

2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 clearly states, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” The Bible is the acid test, not your feelings, and or those of others, in order to make corrections!!! How fortunate we are that God has saw fit not to leave this to humans, but has provided us with written guidance, in order for us to test and see if we are being misled and or are truly in the faith!!!

As to your jumping subjects again to the antichrist for this, and also in 1 Corinthians 12:3, with a context concerning the Gifts of the Spirit, all I have to say, is; What does this have to do with this subject matter of 1 John 4:1, about testing the spirit or testimony? What does this have to do with the price bananas???

I am not going to play this, switch and bait, subject matter with you, which is a tactic you use, when you are unable to confront the plain and simple Bible facts!!!

I have a honest and humble tip for you. When I am confronted with someone new, that I did not know, I do NOT OPEN MY MOUTH, OR WRITE against it, until digest it first, as I may in fact be wrong!!!!!!!! How about that for a the tip of the day!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Dear Turtle and TC:

I would like to take a different approach with you both. I trust that you aware of that we as humans study history, as it is often stated that history repeats itself and so therefore, we study history, among other things, with the intent of learning to avoid past mistakes. For instance if I mention the Holocaust, you would know this to be a part of history, and would NOT deny the same, and yet there are some, that for whatever reason, whether political or other agenda, take the reverse position as though the Holocaust did not exist, despite the evidence. I am hoping that you both are not like that!!!! Therefore, let us discuss the history of the Trinity which is a FACT!!!! Unless, like the Holocaust, you wish to deny it!

The factual history of the Trinity, in particular with regards to Christendom, (as it predates Christendom-more on this later) which in history cannot be denied, clearly comes from the Athanasian Creed, dating back to the 8th and 9th centuries, that originated with the Counsel of Nicea (more than one) which Emperor Constantine (a pagan) presided over early in the 4th century, therefore, I will save space here by not taking the time to quote several historical references for this, (you need to do the research for yourself, and start with Encyclopedia’s and move on from there) that clearly state numerous things about the history of the Trinity doctrine, though highlight and consolidate some of their comments here below;

1. The word Trinity is not found in any Bible (as it is not in any manuscript Hebrew or Greek) nor is the explicit doctrine found in the Bible as well, [My personal comment: not counting the scriptures which must be interpreted due to theology, creeds and dogma]. 2. The Trinity was a concept that was created some 300 hundred plus years after Christ and the Apostles, and was later adopted officially into Christendom (the Roman Catholic Church) nearly 500 hundred years later; 3. It was created and adopted over much political turmoil and controversy, with historically documented, vehement disagreements and heated debates; 4. The meeting was presided over and decided by a pagan, who was not Christian, but baptized on his death bed and was the emperor of Rome; 5. The same encyclopedias and historical sources, clearly state, that the Jews did not and still do not believe in a Trinity (feel free to check Jewish sources and encyclopedias or just ask any Jew today) and that the early Christians of the first century did not believe in a Trinity as well [it is interesting to note that many more sources than the Encyclopedia Britannica state this specifically] and; 6. The Trinity of God(s) is found in almost all pagan religions, and predates the Trinity in Christendom by thousands of years! [Side Comment: It is interesting to note, that the Holy Scriptures clearly, simply and plainly refers to the Messiah, Jesus Christ our Lord and Master as the “Son of God”, not the other way around (almost like mental dyslexia) as “God the Son”, as found in dogmas, creeds and theologies]

It is also interesting to note, that in nearly “all” pagan religions, you will find an interesting common denominator to three commonly held beliefs (via dogma, creeds and theology) in Christendom: 1. The Trinity; 2. The Immortality of the Soul and; 3. Bad people are punished in a place of torment, Hellfire! Check this out for yourself!!!!!

History also shows us that these three common beliefs were carried onto and throughout the “Holy Roman Empire” into the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” and later, when others began to break away, like the Calvinists, Luther, the Protestant (which include the various types of Pentecostals, Baptists etc.) reformation etc., they took with them these same identical beliefs while changing the ceremonies, politics and or procedures on how they worshipped, but oddly enough, they clearly kept in place nearly ALL central beliefs! This is ALL historical fact that no one, not you nor I, no matter how much we disagree, or feel differently over, will be able to alter!

Due the research! And don’t hand me the I have God’s Spirit routine, as I can place many people claiming that from your differing forms of Pentecostalism, Baptists, etc. and they will ALL SAY THE SAME THING, which in the end, proves nothing, which is why we need to test inspired utterances, spirits and testimonies, as stated in 1 John 4:1, with the Bible, and not some Dr. written man or women creed, dogma, theology etc, that came well after the Bible was completed!!!!!!

TonyP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr Praetorian: the guard, I like that. Exactly what are you guarding?

The word Trinity is not in the Bible.

The Great Wall of China is not mentioned in the Bible. Nor is the United States, nor the internet. Is that "proof" positive these things do not exist?

[easeltine]

Tony,

Please explain Isaiah 9:6 from your perspective.

E

[turtle]

Dear Turtle and TC:

I would like to take a different approach with you both. I trust that you aware of that we as humans study history, as it is often stated that history repeats itself and so therefore, we study history, among other things, with the intent of learning to avoid past mistakes. For instance if I mention the Holocaust, you would know this to be a part of history, and would NOT deny the same, and yet there are some, that for whatever reason, whether political or other agenda, take the reverse position as though the Holocaust did not exist, despite the evidence. I am hoping that you both are not like that!!!! Therefore, let us discuss the history of the Trinity which is a FACT!!!! Unless, like the Holocaust, you wish to deny it!

The factual history of the Trinity, in particular with regards to Christendom, (as it predates Christendom-more on this later) which in history cannot be denied, clearly comes from the Athanasian Creed, dating back to the 8th and 9th centuries, that originated with the Counsel of Nicea (more than one) which Emperor Constantine (a pagan) presided over early in the 4th century, therefore, I will save space here by not taking the time to quote several historical references for this, (you need to do the research for yourself, and start with Encyclopedia’s and move on from there) that clearly state numerous things about the history of the Trinity doctrine, though highlight and consolidate some of their comments here below;

1. The word Trinity is not found in any Bible (as it is not in any manuscript Hebrew or Greek) nor is the explicit doctrine found in the Bible as well, [My personal comment: not counting the scriptures which must be interpreted due to theology, creeds and dogma]. 2. The Trinity was a concept that was created some 300 hundred plus years after Christ and the Apostles, and was later adopted officially into Christendom (the Roman Catholic Church) nearly 500 hundred years later; 3. It was created and adopted over much political turmoil and controversy, with historically documented, vehement disagreements and heated debates; 4. The meeting was presided over and decided by a pagan, who was not Christian, but baptized on his death bed and was the emperor of Rome; 5. The same encyclopedias and historical sources, clearly state, that the Jews did not and still do not believe in a Trinity (feel free to check Jewish sources and encyclopedias or just ask any Jew today) and that the early Christians of the first century did not believe in a Trinity as well [it is interesting to note that many more sources than the Encyclopedia Britannica state this specifically] and; 6. The Trinity of God(s) is found in almost all pagan religions, and predates the Trinity in Christendom by thousands of years! [Side Comment: It is interesting to note, that the Holy Scriptures clearly, simply and plainly refers to the Messiah, Jesus Christ our Lord and Master as the “Son of God”, not the other way around (almost like mental dyslexia) as “God the Son”, as found in dogmas, creeds and theologies]

It is also interesting to note, that in nearly “all” pagan religions, you will find an interesting common denominator to three commonly held beliefs (via dogma, creeds and theology) in Christendom: 1. The Trinity; 2. The Immortality of the Soul and; 3. Bad people are punished in a place of torment, Hellfire! Check this out for yourself!!!!!

History also shows us that these three common beliefs were carried onto and throughout the “Holy Roman Empire” into the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” and later, when others began to break away, like the Calvinists, Luther, the Protestant (which include the various types of Pentecostals, Baptists etc.) reformation etc., they took with them these same identical beliefs while changing the ceremonies, politics and or procedures on how they worshipped, but oddly enough, they clearly kept in place nearly ALL central beliefs! This is ALL historical fact that no one, not you nor I, no matter how much we disagree, or feel differently over, will be able to alter!

Due the research! And don’t hand me the I have God’s Spirit routine, as I can place many people claiming that from your differing forms of Pentecostalism, Baptists, etc. and they will ALL SAY THE SAME THING, which in the end, proves nothing, which is why we need to test inspired utterances, spirits and testimonies, as stated in 1 John 4:1, with the Bible, and not some Dr. written man or women creed, dogma, theology etc, that came well after the Bible was completed!!!!!!

TonyP

Actually I do believe the Holocaust happened. I believe persecution still exist. There are many scripture that back the trinty would you like me to proceed. It more then just John 14, it just happened to be one of my Favorites. Let's start in old testament to prove the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 35:30-31 KJV
(30) And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
(31) And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.

Numbers 11:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
(17) And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
Numbers 11:25 KJV
(25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Numbers 11:26 KJV
(26) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

This is to get us started do you want me to continue. These are elder of the Jewsih people. What does the Targum say?

[praetorian]

[QUOTE=the_apostolic_truth_ministries;365583]Mr Praetorian: the guard, I like that. Exactly what are you guarding?


No need to guard anything, as I chose the handle from the intro of a Robert Ludlum Book, The Hades Factor!

You may have missed the point, and I sorry if you did. Let me put it another way; If I said that the Great Wall of China, United States and the Internet are “clearly stated in the Bible” and then point to scriptures that need me to interpret them, to mean the Great Wall etc, then I should be forced to admit it more correctly like; The Bible does not state clearly or directly the Wall of China etc. but it does so by inference, etc., like this “bird” in book and verse so and so, really means China; trust me!!!!

The next time you use an analogy like this, make sure you place it into context, or hope the person responding has poor comprehension skills!

Tata TATM

[dobman53]

Praetioian: Your beating your head against a wall. How's that!! you may ask?

No amount of evidence within the Bible will change the minds of those who choose to please past doctrines above the that of God.

When Jesus said he was not doing his will but the fathers who sent him. This can't be stated any clearer!! Yet their past doctrine says different, so guess who wins!!

I've attempted in the past to inform of the perfect God head, but NO!! such talk doesn't correlate with past doctrines so out it goes!!

They have one goal, and it is to please their fellow believers. They in essance must lower God to their level so to feel all goose pimpely inside. Thats where their love is found all within themselves.

DOB!

[praetorian]

Tony,

Please explain Isaiah 9:6 from your perspective.

E


Why; would a poor explanation, make what I posted here in this thread, magically disappear or wrong some how?

Really, do you want me to do this, as even if you don't agree (and I am betting you won't) it will not alter the facts I presented Biblically, Reference wise and or Historically, or is this just wishful thinking!!!!

LOL

TonyP

[easeltine]

Well, if I understand correctly where you are coming from, did not Murray tell you guys not to debate about the Trinity? You are correct that I believe in The Apostles, The Nicene, and The Athanasian Creed.

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

First and foremost, to date, you have completely chosen to ignore the support I gave you about 16 other English Bibles on John 1:1 as well as the manuscript references provided, not to mention one you can gain access to online for FREE (a third) and the scriptures written after Jesus returned to heaven, where they clearly state, “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus”!!!! You also failed to address many other points, and have instead chosen to change, or alter subject matter, as though I never posted!!! Bravo, all you do, is let people see for themselves, that you choose to ignore and respond to things selectively, however this board, serves as indelible evidence against you and others here, that what is posted is not going to disappear, nor is it invalidated because you choose to ignore it! With that said, I will respond your post below since I find it shocking that as a believer in God and the Bible, you do not know this, but choose to call it vague!

Fortunate for you, we again have the Bible as the authority to address questions like this and not one’s personal opinion. As to your “opinion” that it is vague, let us see how accurate this is below.

1 John 4:1, clearly states three things; 1. That we should not just “believe” every spirit, or testimony (we call that blind credulity) and that instead we are to: 2. Test them, why; 3. Because of the prevalence of “many” false prophets”. How is this vague?

Now, how can we test someone’s testimony or spirit, as to whether it the “truth”, they are relaying, claiming it originates with God? There can be only ONE way, and that is, to test it against what is clearly stated in the Bible, as this is where we learn about God, his Son and Salvation in the FIRST PLACE!!!!! Are you serious?????

2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 clearly states, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” The Bible is the acid test, not your feelings, and or those of others, in order to make corrections!!! How fortunate we are that God has saw fit not to leave this to humans, but has provided us with written guidance, in order for us to test and see if we are being misled and or are truly in the faith!!!

As to your jumping subjects again to the antichrist for this, and also in 1 Corinthians 12:3, with a context concerning the Gifts of the Spirit, all I have to say, is; What does this have to do with this subject matter of 1 John 4:1, about testing the spirit or testimony? What does this have to do with the price bananas???

I am not going to play this, switch and bait, subject matter with you, which is a tactic you use, when you are unable to confront the plain and simple Bible facts!!!

I have a honest and humble tip for you. When I am confronted with someone new, that I did not know, I do NOT OPEN MY MOUTH, OR WRITE against it, until digest it first, as I may in fact be wrong!!!!!!!! How about that for a the tip of the day!!!!

TonyP

I do know how to test the spirit because it is writen in scripture. Yet you like to confuse and change the subject to testing the spirit from the trinity. Yes i claim Jesus Christ as Lord. But see TonyP have you claim it, no not in one post I have seen of yours, but then I do not do a lot of back tracking for a reason, people change over a course of time on these boards. Sometimes, doctrinally, emotinally and sometimes even spiritually. But usually you do not see the effects without asking questions. Now my friend you claim to be a Christian do you claim Jesus as Lord?

[turtle]

Well, if I understand correctly where you are coming from, did not Murray tell you guys not to debate about the Trinity? You are correct that I believe in The Apostles, The Nicene, and The Athanasian Creed.

I believe the Bible. I know they are backed by Biblical principals. I just could not resist this AM.

[praetorian]

Praetioian: Your beating your head against a wall. How's that!! you may ask?

No amount of evidence within the Bible will change the minds of those who choose to please past doctrines above the that of God.

When Jesus said he was not doing his will but the fathers who sent him. This can't be stated any clearer!! Yet their past doctrine says different, so guess who wins!!

I've attempted in the past to inform of the perfect God head, but NO!! such talk doesn't correlate with past doctrines so out it goes!!

They have one goal, and it is to please their fellow believers. They in essance must lower God to their level so to feel all goose pimpely inside. Thats where their love is found all within themselves.

DOB!

Hi DOB:

No, I am having fun, and using this as an object lesson (In my non-internet world) to clearly demonstrate, that you can indeed prove things to people, and despite any amount of proof, people will hear, what they want to hear, and listen to what they want to listen, thereby bringing to life for an application today, Matthew 13:14, “In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

You are indeed correct when you infer the crystal clear clarity of the scriptures at John 6:38, “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me” and also at Matthew 26:39, “Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Duh!!!! But people like the ones spoken of by Isaiah quoted by Jesus make these texts come alive!!!!

Best regards,

TonyP

[truth_child]

i beleive in the triity GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST now one can say JESUS is THE FATHER AND JESUS IS THE SON AND JESUS IS THE HOLY GHOST ALL THEY WANT BUT NO these THREE ARE ONE IN COMPLETE UNITY

[praetorian]

Actually I do believe the Holocaust happened. I believe persecution still exist. There are many scripture that back the trinty would you like me to proceed. It more then just John 14, it just happened to be one of my Favorites. Let's start in old testament to prove the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 35:30-31 KJV
(30) And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
(31) And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.

Numbers 11:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
(17) And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
Numbers 11:25 KJV
(25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Numbers 11:26 KJV
(26) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

This is to get us started do you want me to continue. These are elder of the Jewsih people. What does the Targum say?

Dear Turtle:

Careful there, as you are setting a precedent against yourself by accepting history and using as a reference false non-Christian sources!

Wow, let me go more s-l-o-w-l-y,…..I used the introduction of the history of the Holocaust, to set the stage for the history of the Trinity, both of which cannot be denied! I am truly sorry you don’t get this or do not understand E-n-g-l-i-s-h! K (Valley Girl infection with mixed drum rolls please).

AGAIN, you never responded on point, to my posts, which is the trait of both a con artist and a brainwashed person, IGNORE WHAT IS SAID AND REPEAT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, OR CHANGE THE SUBJECT MATTER BUT REPEAT THE THEME!!!!!! K!

You obviously have some sort of need to “Prove” the Holy Spirit, and I am wondering why, with me, as I believe in the Holy Spirit? Duh!!!! But you amuse me with your “mind” so I will play along even though it is not germane to our exchanges where you selectively ignored facts presented----that in and of itself, says something about you and your beliefs!!!!!!

First, you quote from Exodus 35:30-1, and I first note, that the LORD here is in capital letters and ask, do you know why? (Side Bar: Take a look at Exodus 5:22, and note “LORD” verses “Lord”, side by side, why? Well, here in Hebrew, LORD is not used by rather substituted, (read your KJV introduction please for verification of the same).

Now here God’s personal name, which is in ALL Hebrew manuscripts is used, YHWH which in English is Jehovah. So, we have here, Moses informing the Jews that Jehovah, has selected some people for certain tasks….Now you will note that when the spirit was given to them, it caused something to occur, (Interesting, like when used in Genesis in creation, it had an affect on things) it infused power of understanding of certain crafts!!! However no where in this scripture does it support a Trinity!!!! And if you are trying to tie this into the post you made wherein you discussed John 14:10, (You have a bad memory, as I did not forget what you did, though you may fool people reading this post, without the benefit of knowing where this exchange originated from, further back in this thread) where it states in part, “that I am in the Father and the Father is in me” as a direct proof to establish the Trinity! Do you remember now?

OK, my response was that if you read verse 20 of that same Chapter, which states, “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you” which makes clear, that you cannot use this scripture (verse 10) to support the Trinity as verse 20 explains what Jesus meant! Now it is here, that I pointed out to you, that if you take verse 10 literally, then you must also take verse 20 literally, to mean we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us literally, when he is NOT! So, your going to Exodus to explain what I pointed out to you, does not make any sense!!!

So, know that I agree with your “selective” portrayal and conclusion here that “No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.” Ditto, however I laid out the context here above, so you do not get lost with yourself or the point you originally made!!!! At this point I must ask you; are you suffering from some sort of mental illness, and I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but let’s face it, if you have the memory of a goldfish or cannot keep track of your own posting themes and responses, why do you engage in such exchanges, as you are making a fool of yourself to everyone here and they do not have to agree with the scriptures and references I referred you too in order to SEE THIS!!!

Now here, you simply do more of the same by referring me to Numbers 11: 16, 17, 25 and 26, which establishes NOTHING at all for support of the Trinity, and only goes to support that God YHWH- Jehovah, “the Father and God of the Lord Jesus Christ”, (let me know if you need the scriptures in the NT that express the quoted part) gave his spirit to certain ones of the Jews, that CAUSED them to do things!!! And again, you are misusing the application or analogy of being “IN YOU” that you stated incorrectly about John 14:10 when you conveniently neglected to mention verse 20!

Now here is where you show both your ignorance and why we clearly have a difference of opinion! You ask, “What does the Targum say?” and I reply, who cares, it is not the Bible!!!!!!! It is you that use 3rd party sources, outside the Bible (in effect placing the Bible into second place behind these sources) to support your beliefs!!! Get it!!! LOL….WOW.

Let me go s-l-o-w-l-y again for you; The Targum, as distinguished from the TANAK or as some spell it, TANAKH or TANACH is the Jewish Bible, which we as Christians refer to as the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament! The Targum, is a non-Christian source, as is the Numenius, Pliny the Elder, Lucius Apuleius, a Qumran writing, the Targum of Jonathan, and several apocryphal writings, not forgetting to mention Hulda, and a slew of other non Biblical sources!

I don’t care what the Targum says, as this is a paraphrased writing with opinions, read by Jews TODAY along with the Torah which is in the TANAK, nor do I care what dogmas’ creeds and theologies you believe in, as I ONLY BELIEVE IN WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY TEACHES!!!

Next time you want to play, choose a child from your mental age and sand box, and try to keep to the rules and remember what you write as you make yourself look real BAD!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

I do know how to test the spirit because it is writen in scripture. Yet you like to confuse and change the subject to testing the spirit from the trinity. Yes i claim Jesus Christ as Lord. But see TonyP have you claim it, no not in one post I have seen of yours, but then I do not do a lot of back tracking for a reason, people change over a course of time on these boards. Sometimes, doctrinally, emotinally and sometimes even spiritually. But usually you do not see the effects without asking questions. Now my friend you claim to be a Christian do you claim Jesus as Lord?

I am sorry if you do not know how to follow the Bible’s counsel, as it is clear, much clearer than you non Biblical sources!

I challenge you to prove here before everyone, by showing simple side by side examples of what you express here as “Yet you like to confuse and change the subject to testing the spirit from the Trinity.” YOU DO THIS!!! When I make comments I do so with clear support from the Bible, and references sources, and if this is wrong, then point it out, like I do to you! Talk or making statements that are not backed up is CHEAP!!!

I too agree that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, but he is not the same spirit person as his Father who is Lord of all including Jesus or the scriptures would not make no sense when it refers to Jesus’ Father, as the “God and Father of Jesus.” I have not only expressed it here, I have indeed done so in my posts!!! Which brings me to issues of a sensitive nature, that of your mind! It is either a non working mind or you are purposely trying to deceive!!!! Bad on both counts needing help!

Thank you for admitting that you do not do a lot of back tracking, then again I have a tip for you; stay away from making points or taking sides on issues if you cannot keep track of the exchanges as it does nothing for you, but make you look poorly!

Yes, and I am not your friend, I am a Christian and if it is not evident in these writings to you, we done!!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

I believe the Bible. I know they are backed by Biblical principals. I just could not resist this AM.

By All Means Resist for Your Sake!!!!

[praetorian]

Well, if I understand correctly where you are coming from, did not Murray tell you guys not to debate about the Trinity? You are correct that I believe in The Apostles, The Nicene, and The Athanasian Creed.

Dear Easeline:

I am confused, other than to understand that you clearly admit before everyone on this board, that you take 3rd party, outside Bible sources from which to base you belief and worship in God.

OK, I respect that! Though this begs the question, that since we learn about God and his Son Jesus Christ from the Bible, why do you believe you need to go outside the Bible for your beliefs?

TonyP

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

Careful there, as you are setting a precedent against yourself by accepting history and using as a reference false non-Christian sources!

Wow, let me go more s-l-o-w-l-y,…..I used the introduction of the history of the Holocaust, to set the stage for the history of the Trinity, both of which cannot be denied! I am truly sorry you don’t get this or do not understand E-n-g-l-i-s-h! K (Valley Girl infection with mixed drum rolls please).

AGAIN, you never responded on point, to my posts, which is the trait of both a con artist and a brainwashed person, IGNORE WHAT IS SAID AND REPEAT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, OR CHANGE THE SUBJECT MATTER BUT REPEAT THE THEME!!!!!! K!

You obviously have some sort of need to “Prove” the Holy Spirit, and I am wondering why, with me, as I believe in the Holy Spirit? Duh!!!! But you amuse me with your “mind” so I will play along even though it is not germane to our exchanges where you selectively ignored facts presented----that in and of itself, says something about you and your beliefs!!!!!!

First, you quote from Exodus 35:30-1, and I first note, that the LORD here is in capital letters and ask, do you know why? (Side Bar: Take a look at Exodus 5:22, and note “LORD” verses “Lord”, side by side, why? Well, here in Hebrew, LORD is not used by rather substituted, (read your KJV introduction please for verification of the same).

Now here God’s personal name, which is in ALL Hebrew manuscripts is used, YHWH which in English is Jehovah. So, we have here, Moses informing the Jews that Jehovah, has selected some people for certain tasks….Now you will note that when the spirit was given to them, it caused something to occur, (Interesting, like when used in Genesis in creation, it had an affect on things) it infused power of understanding of certain crafts!!! However no where in this scripture does it support a Trinity!!!! And if you are trying to tie this into the post you made wherein you discussed John 14:10, (You have a bad memory, as I did not forget what you did, though you may fool people reading this post, without the benefit of knowing where this exchange originated from, further back in this thread) where it states in part, “that I am in the Father and the Father is in me” as a direct proof to establish the Trinity! Do you remember now?

OK, my response was that if you read verse 20 of that same Chapter, which states, “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you” which makes clear, that you cannot use this scripture (verse 10) to support the Trinity as verse 20 explains what Jesus meant! Now it is here, that I pointed out to you, that if you take verse 10 literally, then you must also take verse 20 literally, to mean we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us literally, when he is NOT! So, your going to Exodus to explain what I pointed out to you, does not make any sense!!!

So, know that I agree with your “selective” portrayal and conclusion here that “No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.” Ditto, however I laid out the context here above, so you do not get lost with yourself or the point you originally made!!!! At this point I must ask you; are you suffering from some sort of mental illness, and I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but let’s face it, if you have the memory of a goldfish or cannot keep track of your own posting themes and responses, why do you engage in such exchanges, as you are making a fool of yourself to everyone here and they do not have to agree with the scriptures and references I referred you too in order to SEE THIS!!!

Now here, you simply do more of the same by referring me to Numbers 11: 16, 17, 25 and 26, which establishes NOTHING at all for support of the Trinity, and only goes to support that God YHWH- Jehovah, “the Father and God of the Lord Jesus Christ”, (let me know if you need the scriptures in the NT that express the quoted part) gave his spirit to certain ones of the Jews, that CAUSED them to do things!!! And again, you are misusing the application or analogy of being “IN YOU” that you stated incorrectly about John 14:10 when you conveniently neglected to mention verse 20!

Now here is where you show both your ignorance and why we clearly have a difference of opinion! You ask, “What does the Targum say?” and I reply, who cares, it is not the Bible!!!!!!! It is you that use 3rd party sources, outside the Bible (in effect placing the Bible into second place behind these sources) to support your beliefs!!! Get it!!! LOL….WOW.

Let me go s-l-o-w-l-y again for you; The Targum, as distinguished from the TANAK or as some spell it, TANAKH or TANACH is the Jewish Bible, which we as Christians refer to as the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament! The Targum, is a non-Christian source, as is the Numenius, Pliny the Elder, Lucius Apuleius, a Qumran writing, the Targum of Jonathan, and several apocryphal writings, not forgetting to mention Hulda, and a slew of other non Biblical sources!

I don’t care what the Targum says, as this is a paraphrased writing with opinions, read by Jews TODAY along with the Torah which is in the TANAK, nor do I care what dogmas’ creeds and theologies you believe in, as I ONLY BELIEVE IN WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY TEACHES!!!

Next time you want to play, choose a child from your mental age and sand box, and try to keep to the rules and remember what you write as you make yourself look real BAD!!!!

TonyP

Okay Christ is God

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now though you like to insult and it does not become you at all. For one must take things in step. You do not deny the Holy Spirit, just the Son of God. Now I know you say you are tritarian, but you questions make me think other wise, but I think it is more to test me then to argue against what I am saying. You need to know how can I say the Father is in the son. Well I could come off with some off the wall jokes, but I will not, because I feel it is disrespectful to God and to other believers on the board. Fact is jews believe the old testament and not the new. I do not blame them for not seeing my beliefs. But when one looiks at isaiah 9:6,7. One must wonder how can Christ be both God and Son. Reason is the Spirit of God is in Him. His Spirit is God.

Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

God's spirit does not just rest on Him, but is Him. Do you wish to precede now. Sorry about the insult of the targum it was not intended, It is the Bible of the caldeans though, Now even with the TAnaka what does Isaiah 9:6-7 say. Is it the same? If so what does it mean to you.

[praetorian]

Okay Christ is God

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now though you like to insult and it does not become you at all. For one must take things in step. You do not deny the Holy Spirit, just the Son of God. Now I know you say you are tritarian, but you questions make me think other wise, but I think it is more to test me then to argue against what I am saying. You need to know how can I say the Father is in the son. Well I could come off with some off the wall jokes, but I will not, because I feel it is disrespectful to God and to other believers on the board. Fact is jews believe the old testament and not the new. I do not blame them for not seeing my beliefs. But when one looiks at isaiah 9:6,7. One must wonder how can Christ be both God and Son. Reason is the Spirit of God is in Him. His Spirit is God.

Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

God's spirit does not just rest on Him, but is Him. Do you wish to precede now. Sorry about the insult of the targum it was not intended, It is the Bible of the caldeans though, Now even with the TAnaka what does Isaiah 9:6-7 say. Is it the same? If so what does it mean to you.

Hi There Turtle:

I see you did not take my advice! Wow…understandable, as you have issues that you readily admit in not keeping track of your own responses (or others who respond to you) that according to you, change from time to time. So, my reply below will only be good for how long? Hopefully more than 2 seconds!!! This response replies by tracking your comments, so if it appears choppy it is, because that is what you do, and I am following it in kind!

You begin by making a simple erroneous statement that you have yet to support in the Bible, but have supported through your own opinions and ideas and it is; “Okay Christ is God.” I know this may be a bit profound for you, and it may hit you hard as a surprise, but hold on, the Bible clearly says the Jesus is the “Son of God!” I can and have pointed you to many scriptures that simply express this however, you believe Jesus is God, and yet fail to show any scripture,,….I am going to go slow here…..that is as clear as the ones……….that simply state, “Jesus is God’s Son!” Help me out here!!!! Show me, don’t go into an explanation of your opinion, dogma’s, creeds or theology as my question is simple; Show me ONE scripture that expresses “Jesus is God” as simply stated where I show you he is “God’s Son!” Just ONE!

Now here you point me to a prophesy found in Isaiah 9:6-7 and mention that you feel that my comments are insults, and I must admit, that I would truly insult you, if you could understand it, so I did not, I just pointed out the obvious!

I am NOT a Trinitarian, where did you get this from in any of my writings??????? Wow, wow and wow wow wow!!!!! And no, I do not deny the Son of God he is my personal Savior, Lord and Master!!! I deny lies about my Lord and Master Jesus as being his own Father and God himself as this is NOT supported in scripture but supported by outside sources from the Bible! Hey I am joking at you and with you, not to God; how do you make this jump????

I understand, I understand, I understand that the Jews believe in the Old Testament, and the point was that they did nor do not worship God as a Trinity! However, Jews today do what you do, they rely primarily NOT on the BIBLE or the OT, but additional writings not found in the Bible!!! I don’t blame the Jews either; it was God that chose to no longer work with them as a Nation, (which was not against individuals of that Nation) as they rejected his, “God’s Son!”

Now you provide me with your opinion, “One must wonder how can Christ be both God and Son. Reason is the Spirit of God is in Him. His Spirit is God” and I reply, that that statement does NOT mean or support that Jesus and his God and Father are the same SPIRIT PERSON-CREATURE! And your stating that without support from the Bible, is not fair, as what makes your opinion, better or more correct than someone else’s? If I have to choose opinion verses what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states about Jesus being “God’s Son”, than that is what I choose to do! And you can choose to place your opinions over and above the Bible and that is OK for you but not for me!

Now here you go back to Isaiah 9:6, 7 which I quote here below from the NIV, taken from (www.biblegateway.com)

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”

You do not insult me, you do this to yourself, when you use as a reference things outside the Bible and speak as though you know things as though they were fact! I understand the Tanak’s history, that is why I was able to reply, and yes, the verses in Isaiah read similarly! You then ask me, “If so, what does it mean to you.” I trust that here you are referring me back Isaiah quoted above!

Ok, this is one of about four hundred prophecy’s about the Messiah, who proved to be Jesus Christ, and it is interesting to note, that God never prophesied that God Himself would come as the Messiah, as though he had no one of his heavenly family that could send to do this for him, but rather that the one he sent, turned out to be Jesus Christ, the closest person to God in the Universe, that is why he is referred to as the Only-Begotten Son/God, showing Jesus had not only a beginning but a pre-human existence in Heaven alongside God his Father (some translations and most manuscripts use “God” rather than “Son” here and this is covered in a previous post with references I provided along with a free online Hebrew-Greek Manuscript with regards to John 1:18).

Thus this Messiah, Jesus would be like God, a spirit, that was transferred into a human, and that he would fulfill this prophesy in Isaiah in all aspects, as Jesus would be the head or Ruler, King of God’s Government (Kingdom) a real actual ruling Government, by means of which all blessings would flow to mankind! And that this would be possible because verse 7 states, his Father, the LORD, actually YHWH in Hebrew and Jehovah in English would make this possible!!!

There are many other aspects of this scripture, and so if you want a specific question addressed, let me know!

TonyP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

[QUOTE=the_apostolic_truth_ministries;365583]Mr Praetorian: the guard, I like that. Exactly what are you guarding?


No need to guard anything, as I chose the handle from the intro of a Robert Ludlum Book, The Hades Factor!

You may have missed the point, and I sorry if you did. Let me put it another way; If I said that the Great Wall of China, United States and the Internet are “clearly stated in the Bible” and then point to scriptures that need me to interpret them, to mean the Great Wall etc, then I should be forced to admit it more correctly like; The Bible does not state clearly or directly the Wall of China etc. but it does so by inference, etc., like this “bird” in book and verse so and so, really means China; trust me!!!!

The next time you use an analogy like this, make sure you place it into context, or hope the person responding has poor comprehension skills!

Tata TATM

Like yourself?

[praetorian]

[QUOTE=praetorian;365587]

Like yourself?

What a coincidence?

How about using your brain and addressing my posts, like the incontrovertible history about the garbage you believe in and the scriptures that clearly state Jesus is God' Son, and about the God and Father of Jesus Christ, along with the way other Bible’s translate John 1:1, and 1:18, not to mention the actual manuscripts!

I would like to know why I am wrong Biblically speaking from this standpoint! HELP ME!!! PLEASE!!!

I've Got Dogma, Dogma, Creeds and Theologies for Sale! Good Prices!!!! And you appear to be a buyer of such goods!!!

Good for you!! Really, K!

[dobman53]

Isaiah 9:6 Here Isaiah is lamenting on the promise of a saviour to come. Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given.

Now with that thought in mind Isaiah goes on to say about the names being in assocciation with the saviour. Every word he there spoke fully represents such an assocciation.

In the beginning there was the father and the word in unison with the father as one spirit. The word as we now know was that of Jesus. Back then they didn't know the name Jesus, but they new to assocciate this saviour as being in direct unison with God himself. So with all the glory known unto them they spoke knowing this saviour this child born unto them had in his hands alone the power of life it's self.

Here again Jesus makes mention of this power of life being given unto him by the father. Where Jesus say's he has the keys to life.

It's written as well that the son shall be seated at the right hand of God. God shall then make him a foot stool of all his enemys.

Many times I've wittnest where those who seem to truely love God make little effort in the study of his Word. A point in case is when one reads but a lone verse, and then sets about making propositions that are unfounded. In the study of Gods word we must make every effort in seeing that our beliefs are in harmony with all scriptures. If we take it upon ourselves to simply string a few Biblical sentances together why we can wind up having the Bible saying all manner of things. Should one take the effort to place all verses within the the propper context seeing them all in their entirety, Then one can be better self assured in knowing the mind of God.

There was a need from long before flesh man, a need to then protect the holy spirit Of God. As no sin can be before the presence of Gods perfect spirt. Only the son of God himself can except such a challenge to then battle all sins, as all others would most certainly fail. In that state of being you have the perfect God head where sin can never prosper, there by only good will last forever.

DOB!

[easeltine]

Isaiah 44:6 - You cannot separate God. For this makes Jesus another God.
If Jesus is a god/God you are a polytheist.
As the Athanasian Creed logically states, The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Holy Spirit is Almighty, yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

This is logical by the definition of the word/idea of Almighty.

Is. 9:6 - "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"
Jesus is One Substance with the Father.

[dobman53]

My Friends: I know the feelings that can come up within us. Being just men (and women)we often fall short in our abilities to totally grasp all our stated positions as were far from perfect. Me like you, we all have our faults, but for such reasons as stated we don't need to close our minds like steel vaults. I picture it as if some are standing on the beach saying this is where I shall build my house. While at the same time others are saying No No certainly not there, yet the walls go up just the same.

Such are the decisions we all freely make, I only then ask to choose wisely. As the foundation for which you stand are very important in seeing one to having a fulfilling life. Now some will then say What me worry!! I need to have no worries as I'll be raptured, so as to say why study?? LORD HAVE MERCY!!

DOB!

[dobman53]

Easeltine: Who sits at the right hand of God?? Jesus is the perfect image of God. When you've seen his face you've seen the face of God. Jesus is The soul creation of God the fathers hand, all things were then made by the son to please only God. All done in a perfect spirit of unity. No two ways about it, all was done for one purpose. The will of the father. As Jesus stated himself, it was not his will but the fathers who sent him.

This is perhaps one of the hardest of all concepts that any might grasp. That two could be so closely joined in one perfect spirit.

DOB!

[praetorian]

Isaiah 44:6 - You cannot separate God. For this makes Jesus another God.
If Jesus is a god/God you are a polytheist.
As the Athanasian Creed logically states, The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Holy Spirit is Almighty, yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

This is logical by the definition of the word/idea of Almighty.

Is. 9:6 - "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"
Jesus is One Substance with the Father.

I am not separating any God, I am repeating what is in the Bible, and gave you substantiation that the Greek manuscripts refer to Jesus as “only begotten Son” and also as “Only Begotten God” at John 1:18, so your issue is NOT with me, but with the Bible inspired texts of which we have thousands of copies today!!!

Now, it is clear you believe that Jesus should be and or is worshipped. I have another tip for you that you will be able to review very easily, if you don’t own any of the Bibles quoted from below.

The following information, Bible quotations are taken from the following website: www.biblegateway.com,

At Matthew 8:1-3 the King James Version, (by this I mean the most common one, referred to as the 1611) states, “When He [Jesus] was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed Him. And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped Him, saying, ‘Lord, if Thou wilt, Thou canst make me clean.’ Now notice what other Bibles say here; The NIV states, “knelt before him”; New American Standard Bible, “bowed down before him”; The Message Bible, “went to his knees”; Amplified Bible, “prostrated himself before him”; New Living Translation, “knelt before him”; English Standard Version, “knelt before him.”; Contemporary English Version, “knelt before him”; New Century Version, “bowed down before him”; Young’s Literal Translation, “was bowing down to him”; New Life Version, “got down before him”; Holman Christian Standard Bible, “knelt before him”; New International Readers Version, “got down on his knees”; Worldwide English (New Testament), “came and kneeled in front of”; New International-UK Version, “knelt before him”; Today’s New International Version, “knelt before him”; Darby Translation uses “homage” which agrees with the majority!

The above totals 16 Bibles that state this verse differently than the King James Version. Also, to be fair, the Wycliffe New Testament, the 21st Century King James Version, and the New King James Version all use the word “Worshipped” in this same verse, thereby totaling four Bible’s using the word “worshipped” in this verse.

Thus this should peek your interest as to why this is the case, so that I do not have to do this research for you!

The more you know about the Bible, the more the garbage stands out!

TonyP

[easeltine]

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and should be worshipped and glorified.
The Athanasian Creed calls some of these ideas uncomprehensible.
I bow before the throne and proclaim as Thomas did, "My Lord and My God." John 20:28

[turtle]

Hi There Turtle:

I see you did not take my advice! Wow…understandable, as you have issues that you readily admit in not keeping track of your own responses (or others who respond to you) that according to you, change from time to time. So, my reply below will only be good for how long? Hopefully more than 2 seconds!!! This response replies by tracking your comments, so if it appears choppy it is, because that is what you do, and I am following it in kind!

You begin by making a simple erroneous statement that you have yet to support in the Bible, but have supported through your own opinions and ideas and it is; “Okay Christ is God.” I know this may be a bit profound for you, and it may hit you hard as a surprise, but hold on, the Bible clearly says the Jesus is the “Son of God!” I can and have pointed you to many scriptures that simply express this however, you believe Jesus is God, and yet fail to show any scripture,,….I am going to go slow here…..that is as clear as the ones……….that simply state, “Jesus is God’s Son!” Help me out here!!!! Show me, don’t go into an explanation of your opinion, dogma’s, creeds or theology as my question is simple; Show me ONE scripture that expresses “Jesus is God” as simply stated where I show you he is “God’s Son!” Just ONE!

Now here you point me to a prophesy found in Isaiah 9:6-7 and mention that you feel that my comments are insults, and I must admit, that I would truly insult you, if you could understand it, so I did not, I just pointed out the obvious!

I am NOT a Trinitarian, where did you get this from in any of my writings??????? Wow, wow and wow wow wow!!!!! And no, I do not deny the Son of God he is my personal Savior, Lord and Master!!! I deny lies about my Lord and Master Jesus as being his own Father and God himself as this is NOT supported in scripture but supported by outside sources from the Bible! Hey I am joking at you and with you, not to God; how do you make this jump????

I understand, I understand, I understand that the Jews believe in the Old Testament, and the point was that they did nor do not worship God as a Trinity! However, Jews today do what you do, they rely primarily NOT on the BIBLE or the OT, but additional writings not found in the Bible!!! I don’t blame the Jews either; it was God that chose to no longer work with them as a Nation, (which was not against individuals of that Nation) as they rejected his, “God’s Son!”

Now you provide me with your opinion, “One must wonder how can Christ be both God and Son. Reason is the Spirit of God is in Him. His Spirit is God” and I reply, that that statement does NOT mean or support that Jesus and his God and Father are the same SPIRIT PERSON-CREATURE! And your stating that without support from the Bible, is not fair, as what makes your opinion, better or more correct than someone else’s? If I have to choose opinion verses what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states about Jesus being “God’s Son”, than that is what I choose to do! And you can choose to place your opinions over and above the Bible and that is OK for you but not for me!

Now here you go back to Isaiah 9:6, 7 which I quote here below from the NIV, taken from (www.biblegateway.com)

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”

You do not insult me, you do this to yourself, when you use as a reference things outside the Bible and speak as though you know things as though they were fact! I understand the Tanak’s history, that is why I was able to reply, and yes, the verses in Isaiah read similarly! You then ask me, “If so, what does it mean to you.” I trust that here you are referring me back Isaiah quoted above!

Ok, this is one of about four hundred prophecy’s about the Messiah, who proved to be Jesus Christ, and it is interesting to note, that God never prophesied that God Himself would come as the Messiah, as though he had no one of his heavenly family that could send to do this for him, but rather that the one he sent, turned out to be Jesus Christ, the closest person to God in the Universe, that is why he is referred to as the Only-Begotten Son/God, showing Jesus had not only a beginning but a pre-human existence in Heaven alongside God his Father (some translations and most manuscripts use “God” rather than “Son” here and this is covered in a previous post with references I provided along with a free online Hebrew-Greek Manuscript with regards to John 1:18).

Thus this Messiah, Jesus would be like God, a spirit, that was transferred into a human, and that he would fulfill this prophesy in Isaiah in all aspects, as Jesus would be the head or Ruler, King of God’s Government (Kingdom) a real actual ruling Government, by means of which all blessings would flow to mankind! And that this would be possible because verse 7 states, his Father, the LORD, actually YHWH in Hebrew and Jehovah in English would make this possible!!!

There are many other aspects of this scripture, and so if you want a specific question addressed, let me know!

TonyP

Let's throw it in. The word, In John 1:1. Lets stop there before going further in John 1. Who is God's word. Jeus. Now this gets a little nutty. Does it literally mean Word is the spoken word or does it mean something else. I tend to think it means the spoken word, but the fact that the trinity is through out the beginning that causes confusion. But no not really. See If the Son is God literal Spirit and He became flesh then it is God's son, but God's Spirit, but also the literal spoken word, with the HOly Spirit being action. Now that gets totally confusing to the average person don't you think. I think that why minister tend not to talk about it. Butthen you get more indepth and in a place in revelation I can't lay my hands on the reference but it gives it exactly like I am saying. The spoken word being Christ, the Holy Spirit going forth, yet the Word did become flesh, so you have the son in the middle of the throne in revelations. Almost like a divided cell, but united.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

[QUOTE=the_apostolic_truth_ministries;365663]

What a coincidence?

How about using your brain and addressing my posts, like the incontrovertible history about the garbage you believe in and the scriptures that clearly state Jesus is God' Son, and about the God and Father of Jesus Christ, along with the way other Bible’s translate John 1:1, and 1:18, not to mention the actual manuscripts!

I would like to know why I am wrong Biblically speaking from this standpoint! HELP ME!!! PLEASE!!!

I've Got Dogma, Dogma, Creeds and Theologies for Sale! Good Prices!!!! And you appear to be a buyer of such goods!!!

Good for you!! Really, K!

Perhaps, you should buy some of the items you have for sale.

[oneway]

How about using your brain and addressing my posts, like the incontrovertible history about the garbage you believe in and
the scriptures that clearly state Jesus is God' Son, and about the God and Father of Jesus Christ, along with the way other



praetorian, how do you deal with these Scriptures?



John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Not only does Christ claim to be the Son of God, the Jews are wanting to stone Him because they claim He, being a man, is making Himself God. Now if the Son of God fits your def, that Christ is merely a created being that pre-existed in human form in heaven, then why didn't the Jews also know this? Why did they assume that Christ was claiming to be God, if Christ really wasn't claiming to be God? Are you suggesting that Christ was merely lying about His deity, or perhaps the Jews were basically misunderstanding Him??

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Praetorian

The factual history of the Trinity, in particular with regards to Christendom, (as it predates Christendom-more on this later) which in history cannot be denied, clearly comes from the Athanasian Creed, dating back to the 8th and 9th centuries, that originated with the Counsel of Nicea (more than one) which Emperor Constantine (a pagan) presided over early in the 4th century, therefore, I will save space here by not taking the time to quote several historical references for this, (you need to do the research for yourself, and start with Encyclopedia’s and move on from there) that clearly state numerous things about the history of the Trinity doctrine, though highlight and consolidate some of their comments here below;


You would be a great distance ahead to realize anyone with a desire to know the truth can easily find it. Glossing over or outright lying about history, scripture or criminal activity does not help your case. Playing the lurckers for fools is never wise. Now, I suggest you start over with the truth, nor your religion's mantras.

[dobman53]

The son of God has every attribute of the father. So when Jesus said I am. Jesus again spoke the truth in saying you do see the face of God.

When God views upon a married couple he see's only one. When the day come when we view Gods throne Jesus shall be seated at his right hand. We to shall see two as one in the more perfect union. Two as one in harmony represented in perfect spirit.

When a man marries a woman he is far more complete than any lone man. This same union of God and son is the picture of a far more complete union than could ever be imagined. Such is Gods will, where his will is seeing one while looking upon two. In that spirit we to shall follow suit in doing Gods will knowing of this more perfect union.

Lets never foreget that through this union all things did come to be. In coming to grips with the truth a far better union in understanding is at hand. The Kenites in the temple knew of such a union though they spoke otherwise, the Moslems claim the same to be. We as Christians know that through Gods lone son, and through him alone we should not need to taste death in the hear after. The Jews as well as the Moslems know only of the father refusing to ever believe that a son could hold the keys to life. To say otherwise is as saying their is no Christ, no son born unto us for our redemtion.

Such thing as these are those of Gods own will. For all times to come we will be living testaments to the will of God. No need to argue about these things as they were ment to be as are all things, all unto Gods own will. If God had not the desire their would be no son, but here again on that same note No son No us, as from before the makings of our free will God new the need for his son. So unto us a son was most certainly given.

DOB!

[oneway]

The Kenites in the temple knew of such a union though they spoke otherwise,



dobman53, I thought we got all of these Kenites out of our systems long ago? You're not still hung up on Kenites are you? Don't you think it's time to let those poor Kenites RIP?

[dobman53]

TATM: We bash heads all the time!!

You make light of others knowledge, while the whole time your fundamental beliefs are held up by your preaching about past doctrines of men.

I've heard, and I have listened on many occassions about your take's on many Biblical matters. Many many times I've observed you making mention of supposed Christian mens doctrines. With an out right love for these doctrines of men, It's become more than aparent that an obvious fundamental flaw has some how rationalized your thinking.

Now you might be thinking Oh!! NO!! not me it's you MR. DOB!!!

I can understand your take, but you shall never understand mine.

Our fundamental difference are as follows.

You believe doctrine's of men first, then set about seeking very little proof.

While I first set about seeking much proof, while believing little of mens doctrine.

I'm most sure you'll not like what I've just said, as I now do certainly wait knowing there will be little if any substance in respounce. Of course there will be one of those one line zingger your so famous for!! But such as it should be from a man who's total complete knowledge can be wrapped up in a single verse.

DOB!

[dobman53]

Oneway: You surely do keep a tight hold of your beliefs, to bad it's just like a steel vault slamming shut.

You yourself have stated on many an occassion that your not to sure on a variety of Biblical subjects. Though it has never stopped you in the past from making any number of false claims.

I'm beginning to draw up similar conclusions of you and TATM. Where TATM swares he's read the entire Bible 7 times through. Though he's never studied a word. I'm thinking such thoughts of you at present having read but never really condemplating just exactly what was being said. Though the whole while believing the doctrines of long ago dead men.

Reading for enjoyment is fine, but I'd never advise to study comic books.

You know something Being an X Jehovahs witness I became at ease in studing the Bible on a regular basis. When it came time to studing with P/M it took little if any effort on my part to continue with the same habbits. 1968-2008 is a fair amount of study time, and I don't care who has anything to say much about anything in such regaurds.

Oneway have you ever noticed you can't seem to trip your old buddy Dob up!!!

Have you ever noticed how your old pal Dob just simply talks from his heart. You look down into your own heart good friend, as you know better than most of just that.

Now don't get any wrong ideas, as I'm just as guilty of sin as any man walking. Though one thing you can forever count on from your friend Dob. I'll always tell you what my heart is saying, and never fear of what other men might say.

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: We bash heads all the time!!

You make light of others knowledge, while the whole time your fundamental beliefs are held up by your preaching about past doctrines of men.

I've heard, and I have listened on many occassions about your take's on many Biblical matters. Many many times I've observed you making mention of supposed Christian mens doctrines. With an out right love for these doctrines of men, It's become more than aparent that an obvious fundamental flaw has some how rationalized your thinking.

Now you might be thinking Oh!! NO!! not me it's you MR. DOB!!!

I can understand your take, but you shall never understand mine.

Our fundamental difference are as follows.

You believe doctrine's of men first, then set about seeking very little proof.

While I first set about seeking much proof, while believing little of mens doctrine.

I'm most sure you'll not like what I've just said, as I now do certainly wait knowing there will be little if any substance in respounce. Of course there will be one of those one line zingger your so famous for!! But such as it should be from a man who's total complete knowledge can be wrapped up in a single verse.

DOB!

As enlightened as you are Mr. Dobman53, I would never argue.

[turtle]

I am sorry if you do not know how to follow the Bible’s counsel, as it is clear, much clearer than you non Biblical sources!

I challenge you to prove here before everyone, by showing simple side by side examples of what you express here as “Yet you like to confuse and change the subject to testing the spirit from the Trinity.” YOU DO THIS!!! When I make comments I do so with clear support from the Bible, and references sources, and if this is wrong, then point it out, like I do to you! Talk or making statements that are not backed up is CHEAP!!!

I too agree that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, but he is not the same spirit person as his Father who is Lord of all including Jesus or the scriptures would not make no sense when it refers to Jesus’ Father, as the “God and Father of Jesus.” I have not only expressed it here, I have indeed done so in my posts!!! Which brings me to issues of a sensitive nature, that of your mind! It is either a non working mind or you are purposely trying to deceive!!!! Bad on both counts needing help!

Thank you for admitting that you do not do a lot of back tracking, then again I have a tip for you; stay away from making points or taking sides on issues if you cannot keep track of the exchanges as it does nothing for you, but make you look poorly!

Yes, and I am not your friend, I am a Christian and if it is not evident in these writings to you, we done!!!!!

TonyP

Tony P, I am a Christian to say I am your enemy means you know nothing about my beliefs or you do not beleive the Bible, so chill, no I just back tracked on this you are cool, depends on your definition of a christian. See if you believe Jesus Christ is Lord, then we are at the beginning of actually agreeing, but if you say He is not then we are on opposite team. And then I also have to take your word on it, but time will tell.

[turtle]

Now don't get any wrong ideas, as I'm just as guilty of sin as any man walking. Though one thing you can forever count on from your friend Dob. I'll always tell you what my heart is saying, and never fear of what other men might say.

DOB!

Last time I heard those words was from a conartist. beware oneway. And now I am in trouble. Double trouble.

[truth_child]

many conartist exsit today and i have found out many in my lifetime but thank GOD if im ever taken in by one and find it out it will never happen again

[turtle]

many conartist exsit today and i have found out many in my lifetime but thank GOD if im ever taken in by one and find it out it will never happen again

TC dobman is a good person, I ws picking at him. Maybe you need to know that. He knows it.

[truth_child]

turtle who said the one wasnt? i know i suppose as much as i know and sometime i dont know enough but i can rest asurred that GOD will help me with it all

[easeltine]

Tony,

It would be useless to go over every Scripture that you have posted Tony. A Trinitarian sees these Scriptures from another viewpoint. I'm just going to again post what I posted above and point to another Scripture that states the logic that supports the doctrine of the Trinity. Your posting is very similar to a J.W.'s belief.

What I posted:

Isaiah 44:6 - You cannot separate God. For this makes Jesus another God.
If Jesus is a god/God you are a polytheist.
As the Athanasian Creed logically states, The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Holy Spirit is Almighty, yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

This is logical by the definition of the word/idea of Almighty.

Is. 9:6 - "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"
Jesus is One Substance with the Father.

This above verse, cross referenced with the idea expressed in Isaiah 44:6 shows that one should never, and cannot make Jesus a lesser God. Jesus Christ says the following in Revelation 1:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty."

Jesus in this verse is stating that He is "the Almighty." The idea that Jesus Christ is "the Almighty," or Onipotent, shows that He is God by the very definition of the word Almighty. This is why Jesus Christ says, "before Abraham was I Am." This is a critical point to understand, for one is not part of "Christianity" unless one does. I believe that, "The Athanasian Creed," (written before 500 AD, maybe by Saint Ambrose around 350 AD), is truth.

[turtle]

It would be useless to go over ever Scripture that you have posted Tony. A Trinitarian sees these Scriptures from another viewpoint. I'm just going to again post what I posted above and point to another Scripture that states the logic that supports the doctrine of the Trinity.

What I posted:

Isaiah 44:6 - You cannot separate God. For this makes Jesus another God.
If Jesus is a god/God you are a polytheist.
As the Athanasian Creed logically states, The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Holy Spirit is Almighty, yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. This is also why Jesus Christ states, "I Am."

This is logical by the definition of the word/idea of Almighty.

Is. 9:6 - "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"
Jesus is One Substance with the Father.

This above verse, cross referenced with the idea expressed in Isaiah 44:6 shows that one should never, and cannot make Jesus a lesser God. Jesus Christ says the following in Revelation 1:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty."

Jesus in this verse is stating that He is "the Almighty." The idea that Jesus Christ is "the Almighty," or Onipotent, shows that He is God by the very definition of the word Almighty. That's the point in The Athanasian Creed! You cannot have more than one Almighty by the very definition and concept of the word Almighty. This is a critical point to understand, for one is not part of "Christianity" unless one does. I believe that, "The Athanasian Creed," (written before 500 AD, maybe by Saint Ambrose around 350 AD), is truth.

The way God spoke to my heart about the unity of God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit was a little different.

John 1:1 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Revelation 2:16 KJV
(16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


Ephesians 6:17 KJV
(17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Word being Christ, the sword the Spirit, Now the Father is not list in this but we know the Father sends the Son and the Spirit from John 14

[easeltine]

Yes, Turtle, and again, John 1:1 never has had, or implied, the article "a" in front of the word God! The Watchtower Version is in error when it does this! That would make Jesus another lesser god. John 1 clearly states, (despite any ideas to the contrary), that:

1 - "the Word was God."
3,10 - "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (That would include Jesus, and don't forget who created the heavens and the earth - Gen. 1:1).
14 - "And the Word became flesh..."

As it says in Colossians, "All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist..."

As Bishop Alexander, (Spiritual Father of St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, excommunicator of Arius), stated:

"It is necessary to say that the Father is always the Father. He is the Father, since the Son is always with Him, on account of whom He is called the Father."

[turtle]

Yes, Turtle, and again, John 1:1 never has had, or implied, the article "a" in front of the word God! The Watchtower Version is in error when it does this! That would make Jesus another lesser god. John 1 clearly states, (despite any ideas to the contrary), that:

1 - "the Word was God."
3,10 - "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (That would include Jesus, and don't forget who created the heavens and the earth - Gen. 1:1).
14 - "And the Word became flesh..."

As it says in Colossians, "All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist..."

As Bishop Alexander, (Spiritual Father of St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, excommunicator of Arius), stated:

"It is necessary to say that the Father is always the Father. He is the Father, since the Son is always with Him, on account of whom He is called the Father."

What confuses people I think is understanding though that even though one they are separatable in person form. For like in the baptism of Jesus we see all three mentioned and in individual form.

[easeltine]

This is my question that I wanted to ask Turtle, Arron, or Xman, though anyone can comment if they want.

Oneness theology teaches that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That there is no separation between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God revealing Himself in three different ways or offices.

The Bible says,

Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

1 Corinthians 12:3 "...and no one can say the Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."

1 John 4:1-3 "...Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God...

A person that believes in Oneness is basically saying that Jesus Christ was the Father, perfect God, though by saying that Jesus is the Father and not stating that there is a separation of the Father and the Son is believing that Jesus Christ was perfect God, though by this statement rejects the humanity idea, that Jesus Christ was perfect man. There are disturbing problems with these ideas.

Is a person saved when they hold Oneness theology, since they actually reject the idea, (as I see it), in the humanity of Christ, (to me), the Messiahship idea of Christ/the Son of Man?

Turtle, I just saw your post, and that is part of this question. TATM actually made me think a bit more about these ideas. Maybe this is a bit too theological, but interesting...lol

[turtle]

This is my question that I wanted to ask Turtle, Arron, or Xman, though anyone can comment if they want.

Oneness theology teaches that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That there is no separation between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God revealing Himself in three different ways or offices.

The Bible says,

Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

1 Corinthians 12:3 "...and no one can say the Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."

1 John 4:1-3 "...Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God...

A person that believes in Oneness is basically saying that Jesus Christ was the Father, perfect God, though by saying that Jesus is the Father and not stating that there is a separation of the Father and the Son is believing that Jesus Christ was perfect God, though by this statement rejects the humanity idea, that Jesus Christ was perfect man. There are disturbing problems with these ideas.

Is a person saved when they hold Oneness theology, since they actually reject the idea, (as I see it), in the humanity of Christ, (to me), the Messiahship idea of Christ/the Son of Man?

Turtle, I just saw your post, and that is part of this question. TATM actually made me think a bit more about these ideas. Maybe this is a bit too theological, but interesting...lol

I think maybe that is why I like the egg analogy( almost couldnt' spell that) Egg is one but each part of an egg can be separate. Shell, white and the yoke.Yet they still can be one physically. Of course you can not put an egg back together after broken open, but I think you can see it like in the verse in Revalation and Galations I gave. Yet the throne in chapter five of revelations you clearly see Christ and the Father and of course the Holy Spirit is probably there to, I have to look again. But I think so, it just might not be as pronounced as the lamb that was slained and the Father being on the Throne.

[easeltine]

On the other hand, the Shepherd Chapel followers do not believe Jesus Christ in the same way as Arius or J.W.'s. The difference is that they believe that all things were made through Christ, and that Christ is of the divine substance of the Father. They do not believe that Jesus was a created being, or creature. Though they may not believe in The Athanasian Creed, they would almost believe in the Nicene Creed, though they do not know that they do, from Council of Nice, Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things, visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of one substance of the Father; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begottten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made, both in heaven and in earth...

The Shepherd Chapel group are not so apart from the personal beliefs of Eusebius himself.

[turtle]

On the other hand, the Shepherd Chapel followers do not believe Jesus Christ in the same way as Arius or J.W.'s. The difference is that they believe that all things were made through Christ, and that Christ is of the divine substance of the Father. They do not believe that Jesus was a created being, or creature. Though they may not believe in The Athanasian Creed, they would almost believe in the Nicene Creed, though they do not know that they do, from Council of Nice, Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things, visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of one substance of the Father; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begottten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made, both in heaven and in earth...

The Shepherd Chapel group are not so apart from the personal beliefs of Eusebius himself.

Okay the way you said that reminded me of new age for some reason.

[turtle]

Okay the way you said that reminded me of new age for some reason.

Okay here is my problem with your statement you use the word substeance in your last paragraph. There is a few more words as well, but that is that main one that concerns me. I do not think of God as a substance. That sounds like an animated object. Forgive me, I do not think you mean it that way, but it is the word alone I have problems with. So explain it how you mean it.

[oneway]

If God had not the desire
their would be no son,


dobman53, what exactly are you implying here? Are you implying that God created the Son, and the Son, in turn, created us? Basically what I'm asking, do you believe the Son has a beginning, or no beginning? Has the Son always existed forever?

[easeltine]

Turtle,

The following comes from The Nicene Creed:

...the only begotten of the Father, that is, of one substance of the
Father

You had the emperor of the Roman Empire by the name of Diocletion, and he was persecuting Christians in the most awful way. Christians around the Empire were praying for God to deliver them from the persecution. St. Antony in the desert, St. Athanasius, and Bishop Alexander in Egypt were prime examples of Christians praying, and will be part of the story that follows.

After Diocletian's death the Empire was split into five different armies fighting with each other. One of those armies was led by the then General Constantine. The religious backgroud of Constantine was that his mother was a Christian and his father was a sun worshipper. One day Constantine looked up at the sun and he saw the shape of the cross of Jesus Christ, and Constantine heard the voice of God speaking to him saying, "In this you shall conquer." Constantine put the sign of the cross on his soldiers weapons, and carried the banner of the cross in front of his army, and miraculously, (without a doubt the Lord Jesus Christ helped him...with the cross of Jesus going on before), beat the other four armies though he was far outnumbered. Constantine became the Roman Emperor and stopped Christian persecution, by issuing an edict of toleration.

In Eygpt is where the theological problem started. A physically lean, outlandish poet, rose up against the Bishop of Alexandria, Bishop Alexander. Bishop Alexander, and his spiritual son Saint Athanasius believed that Jesus Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh, and that the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, were always together from eternity. Arius would rudely break out in poems, (sort of like the heheher on the other Threads), and declare that Jesus Christ was a CREATED BEING, THAT THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE SON WAS NOT. Bishop Alexander rightfully excommunicated Arius. Arius applealed to the Emperor Constantine and Constantine's personal Bishop Eusebius talked the Emperor into a Council. Eusebius was sympathetic to Arius and his cause. The Emperor paid for the trips of 1000 people, (the Bishops and sub-Bishops), to come to the Council of Nice to resolve the problem. They arrived to Nice, a paid trip by the Emperor, some with cuts and stripes on their bodies from Emperor Diocletian's persecution just a few years earlier.

There was quite a few Bishops and sub-Bishops that has similar theology to Arius, or shall we say, were sympathetic with this some of his ideas. In the end, after much prayer and direction from the Holy Spirit, all but 12 men voted to approve The Nicene Creed. The phrase, "one substance with the Father," satisfied the group that believed that Jesus Christ is not the same as the Father, that technically the heavens and the earth were made through the Son Jesus Christ. Technically, similar to Shepherd Chapel's ideas. Arius could not take communion after that, though, Bishop and eventually Saint Athanasius, (next Bishop of Alexandria), would be banished 5 times after this due to Arius continually appealing his cause to the Emperor.

So, the phrase, "one substance with the Father," was the best the Council could come up with to describe the unity of God the Father and God the Son. Remember, always be nice to Catholics, there may be more there than you think...

[easeltine]

Oneway,

I am posting this due that it is part of the question I ask above:

Dobman,

Correct me if I am wrong. I think you are from the Shepherd Chapel group and from Watchman and reading on the Internet the following is what I think your group saying, it is slightly different than most Christians think.

The Son was always part of the Father from eternity. Though, He was not the Son until God the Father said, (whenever that was):

Ps.2:7" I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Most Christians believe the following about this passage of Scripture:

Ps.2:7" I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." The word for today is referring to time, but is used as a timeless today, it is in the eternal present, which knows no past or future. Jesus did not become the son by adoption this is a timeless declaration of him being the Son from all eternity.
http://www.letusreason.org/Onenes6.htm

It's not a bad as J.W.'s or Arius that specifically makes Jesus a created being, though, it leads one to the question that I ask above. By the Son becoming Begotten, a time when the Son was not, does this make Jesus a lesser god than the Father by definition, no Almighty, and therefore not GOD ALMIGHTY THE SON FROM ETERNITY? It's a bit theological and tricky...

[turtle]

Turtle,

The following comes from The Nicene Creed:

...the only begotten of the Father, that is, of one substance of the
Father

You had the emperor of the Roman Empire by the name of Diocletion, and he was persecuting Christians in the most awful way. Christians around the Empire were praying for God to deliver them from the persecution. St. Antony in the desert, St. Athanasius, and Bishop Alexander in Egypt were prime examples of Christians praying, and will be part of the story that follows.

After Diocletian's death the Empire was split into five different armies fighting with each other. One of those armies was led by the then General Constantine. The religious backgroud of Constantine was that his mother was a Christian and his father was a sun worshipper. One day Constantine looked up at the sun and he saw the shape of the cross of Jesus Christ, and Constantine heard the voice of God speaking to him saying, "In this you shall conquer." Constantine put the sign of the cross on his soldiers weapons, and carried the banner of the cross in front of his army, and miraculously, (without a doubt the Lord Jesus Christ helped him...with the cross of Jesus going on before), beat the other four armies though he was far outnumbered. Constantine became the Roman Emperor and stopped Christian persecution, by issuing an edict of toleration.

In Eygpt is where the theological problem started. A physically lean, outlandish poet, rose up against the Bishop of Alexandria, Bishop Alexander. Bishop Alexander, and his spiritual son Saint Athanasius believed that Jesus Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh, and that the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, were always together from eternity. Arius would rudely break out in poems, (sort of like the heheher on the other Threads), and declare that Jesus Christ was a CREATED BEING, THAT THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE SON WAS NOT. Bishop Alexander rightfully excommunicated Arius. Arius applealed to the Emperor Constantine and Constantine's personal Bishop Eusebius talked the Emperor into a Council. Eusebius was sympathetic to Arius and his cause. The Emperor paid for the trips of 1000 people, (the Bishops and sub-Bishops), to come to the Council of Nice to resolve the problem. They arrived to Nice, a paid trip by the Emperor, some with cuts and stripes on their bodies from Emperor Diocletian's persecution just a few years earlier.

There was quite a few Bishops and sub-Bishops that has similar theology to Arius, or shall we say, were sympathetic with this some of his ideas. In the end, after much prayer and direction from the Holy Spirit, all but 12 men voted to approve The Nicene Creed. The phrase, "one substance with the Father," satisfied the group that believed that Jesus Christ is not the same as the Father, that technically the heavens and the earth were made through the Son Jesus Christ. Technically, similar to Shepherd Chapel's ideas. Arius could not take communion after that, though, Bishop and eventually Saint Athanasius, (next Bishop of Alexandria), would be banished 5 times after this due to Arius continually appealing his cause to the Emperor.

So, the phrase, "one substance with the Father," was the best the Council could come up with to describe the unity of God the Father and God the Son. Remember, always be nice to Catholics, there may be more there than you think...

You know I still don't like the word substance, but I can understand what happened. Reason being when we get scattered often times things change from how someone might preceive something or we humans would define something. God however does not change.

Hebrews 13:8-9 KJV
(8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
(9) Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

I am sure catholics debate this in their theology classes about nicene creed. It is surprising what actually people believe that their denomination might not believe.

[dobman53]

Turtle: I now sound like a con-artist? Sheesh??

Ealier I mentioned about the Triniy!! I do most assuredly say the Father and the Son as well as their both knowing Gods unchalengable Holy Spirit represents the perfect Rulership of God!!

Let me make one last mention of my feelings. Jesus said!!

St. Mark 13:32 But of that day and of that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither THE SON!! but the father.

Hmmmmm? Jesus says he doesn't even know the day nor hour??? Hmmmmm??

What's up?? How can this be??? The Father knows but he doesn't???

Jesus has done all things for the will of his father. EVERYTHING!!!

Were mighty lucky God did give us his son. Mighty Lucky!!!

DOB!

[turtle]

Turtle: I now sound like a con-artist? Sheesh??

Ealier I mentioned about the Triniy!! I do most assuredly say the Father and the Son as well as their both knowing Gods unchalengable Holy Spirit represents the perfect Rulership of God!!

Let me make one last mention of my feelings. Jesus said!!

St. Mark 13:32 But of that day and of that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither THE SON!! but the father.

Hmmmmm? Jesus says he doesn't even know the day nor hour??? Hmmmmm??

What's up?? How can this be??? The Father knows but he doesn't???

Jesus has done all things for the will of his father. EVERYTHING!!!

Were mighty lucky God did give us his son. Mighty Lucky!!!

DOB!

I understand that fully, but why do some groups try and twist these things. See I know God the Father is one and united with his son and the Holy Spirit. The Father sent both the Holy Spirit and His Son.

[dobman53]

I'm in no way trying to lessen Jesus, No never!!

Just keeping things straight is all,

At the end of the Lords day, Jesus gives back to his father what is rightfully his.

DOB!

[turtle]

I'm in no way trying to lessen Jesus, No never!!

Just keeping things straight is all,

At the end of the Lords day, Jesus gives back to his father what is rightfully his.

DOB!

The question that seems people have is how they can be one and yet in three person's. I can understand there question. That why I try and use as much scripture as able. i understand Dob.

[dobman53]

Turtle: Why do you say one thing one minute, then something totally opposite the next.

You say I understand that fully, Yet tommorow is another day!!

Someone might not like hearing this 10 minutes from now, and say something totally the opposite. I wouldn't be surprised to hear you then say thats how you feel as well??

OH! WELL!!

DOB!

[dobman53]

???????????????????????????

[turtle]

Turtle: Why do you say one thing one minute, then something totally opposite the next.

You say I understand that fully, Yet tommorow is another day!!

Someone might not like hearing this 10 minutes from now, and say something totally the opposite. I wouldn't be surprised to hear you then say thats how you feel as well??

OH! WELL!!

DOB!

I do grasp, yet sometimes even when you grasp, to explain it you can not. Anyway The fact remains God word remains true. And God uses often other sources to explain things. Like not to use God. But that is a different subject is it not. The book on the Holy Spirit, Oh it was fabulous written by a pentecostal church of God man. He made it clear not to use God. Well unless you seen God be used you would not understand them words. Do you know what it means Dob.

[turtle]

???????????????????????????

Dobman you are little help. you ask a question and expect me to read minds, yes I know what I said I tell you the story of long ago. About Simeon the socerier and is Holy Spirit experience.

[truth_child]

i dont beleive that simon the sorcerer ever got the baptism i beleive he was lost he tried to buy with mony the things OF GOD

[easeltine]

Lost? Maybe - Acts 8:24

[turtle]

Lost? Maybe - Acts 8:24

Simeon in the Bible sought forgiveness. It bothers me to see people use God for financial gain, nothing wrong mind you of ministers to make money and receive payment for preaching, but when one initially does it for financial gain and not to serve the Lord there is a problem. Some people do not consider such to be a cult, but more of occult, because their god is not Jesus it is mammon. To use God is not a crime in our laws, but it is an unjustice to our faith. Not just injustice of our faith, but a theft to those a man like that harms. I watch a simeon use God to use money money for financial gain and for his own pocketbook at the expense of others less fortunate then him.

How do you understand these verse and what is your interpetation Easeltine?

Matthew 19:24 KJV
(24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I know what I been taught about this verse, but I seen a different definition somewhere else, what is your definition.

[truth_child]

i beleive the needles eye was an actual needle and that because of a rich mans thought about money and love of it it would be easier for a camel to get though than the rich man there is a teaching which can also be true that the needles eye was the door way that a camel would ave to stoop down to even try to get throough

[turtle]

i beleive the needles eye was an actual needle and that because of a rich mans thought about money and love of it it would be easier for a camel to get though than the rich man there is a teaching which can also be true that the needles eye was the door way that a camel would ave to stoop down to even try to get throough

Yeah I always heard teh story about the needle being a gateway like a tunnel that the carvan had to go through. The camels having to go through, but it is actually a babylonia proverb that speaks about and elephant going through eye of a needle. Which is even harder or impossible to do, because it is an actual needle. It is funny how many things we are taught are sometimes not true. One has to explore what is taught.

[dobman53]

Turtle: You said That when I grasp a concept, that I can't explain it??

The answer's are there for thoughs who seek them. If one sets out on a journey believing all is beyond their abilities to comprehind, they just might as well stay home. At the same time such persons do claim wisdom by announcing their indesicivness as being some how enlightened about such follies.

Mystical interpretations are of know value to any, and to think such as being enlightened only adds creadence to the falling away. When one finds they contradict themselves at vertually every opportunity, and then claim mystical wisdom darkness then prevails. As the minds of men are then destined to absurdity.

DOB!

[praetorian]

Isaiah 44:6 - You cannot separate God. For this makes Jesus another God.
If Jesus is a god/God you are a polytheist.
As the Athanasian Creed logically states, The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Holy Spirit is Almighty, yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

This is logical by the definition of the word/idea of Almighty.

Is. 9:6 - "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"
Jesus is One Substance with the Father.

Dear Eastline:

Sir I am not sure what you mean when you speak about separating God as since you put it, “You cannot separate God. For this makes Jesus another God” (more on Jesus being a God below) and you rightly quote, God as having inspired in Isaiah 44:6, “there is no God” and I will add verse 7, “no one like me” and this is a FACT as the Father and God of Jesus Christ, as so clearly stated in 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, and 1 Peter 1:3 has never had a beginning, and yet his Son, clearly had a beginning!

I am going to use www.biblebgateway.com for this, so you can follow along on my quoting John 1:18, should you not have the NIV and or the New American Standard Bible; First the NIV, “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known” and now also from the New American Standard as: A)No one has seen God at any time; (B)the only begotten God who is (C)in the bosom of the Father, (D)He has explained Him.” (for footnotes see the Bible’s quoted or go online to www.biblegateway.com) The King James Version reads “only Begotten Son”.
In fact the New Kings James also reads, “only Begotten Son” with a footnote showing informing it’s readers that the “NU Text reads only begotten God.” See this yourself at the link below:

(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:18;&version=50)

Now, according to the NIV, he is referred to as “the One and Only”, but now according to the New American Standard he is referred to (which is directly from the Greek) as “the only Begotten God” so, Jesus is a God, but not the same God or person (SPIRIT PERSON) as his Father, as first, according to this verse he is the “only Begotten God” meaning he had a beginning, as his Father has not! Now if there was only ONE way this verse appeared in ALL English translations and versions of the Bible, as it appears in the NIV, then one would not have an issue here, however, the FACTS are, that it is not rendered the same in other English Bibles, (let alone the Greek from which it is translated from) which should at least cause you to want to know why this is so first, BEFORE or rather want to prove a particular thought is wrong!

Please reason on this: When we have children, does anyone “reasonable” person argue over them being referred to as humans, or human kind? In the sprit world, when God created his children, others, (spirit creatures like himself) with the first one being ONLY like himself, whom we know is Jesus, we know we cannot refer to them as human kind, (as they are spirits like God) but must refer to him and them from what they must be-like in form and or substance, like their God and Father, but Jesus (anymore than the angels) could NOT BE GOD HIMSELF as GOD HIMSELF, created, made, first generated and only begot, his Son Jesus and made the other spirit beings, angels!!!! This is what this verse states, when calling Jesus the “only begotten Son/God”. This is the Bible not dogma! More on this below.
There is no polytheism in Worshipping the God and Father of Jesus Christ, as God gave Jesus to us so we can have life, (as God cannot deal with us directly) and teach us the truth! It is when one reads Bible translations or versions that express that Jesus is to be “worshipped” when the same verses in other English Bibles show that he was NOT, that these types of wrong thinking creeps in!

I then find what you do shocking, though not surprising, for you then state as support of your beliefs “As the Athanasian Creed logically states, The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Holy Spirit is Almighty, yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.” Wow, what can I say, you need to go to a pagan established belief and work it backward to fit your beliefs in the Bible. Work it backward or sideways, this is a pagan belief adopted by pagans 300 years or so after Christ and Apostles has been long gone off the earthly scene!
We have many differences between us though the most prominent one is; (critical to note) I believe in the Bible and only the Bible, you believe the Bible in conjunction to what it expresses in outside sources, which you know are of pagan origin!

For your information, you should also know, that thorough research in the Bible, should cause you to feel differently about the things you believe, as you will find other scriptures that express things as stated in the NIV, like is found at Psalms 8:5 (look at context, speaking about the creation of Man) “You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings [a] and crowned him with glory and honor.” And the footnote reads” “Or than God”

(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%208:5;&version=31;

For your further information other Bibles here express it as, “a little lower than godlike ones”, or “a little lower than angels” or “a little lower than heavenly beings” or “a little lower than yourself” etc. The question is why are there such differences, about this verse in these translations?

I will be referring to the Interlinear Bible, Hebrew-Greek-English, Jay P. Green, Sr. published by Hendrickson Publishers, with corresponding Numbers for the Hebrew and Greek from Strong’s Concordance. I will also be using “The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius” more recently known as “Briggs Driver Lexicon” for the following words so that you are free to corroborate the research yourself!

The Strong’s Concordance number, from where we get the words and phrases in English as “heavenly beings”, “Or than God”, “godlike ones”, “yourself” etc. is number 340, in Hebrew “maleim” which means according to the Briggs Driver Lexicon, “rulers, judges, either as divine representatives, divine ones, superhuman human beings including God and angels, angels, “the sons of God, or sons of gods=angels”, or heavenly beings, or godlike, God, and God YHWH, and false Gods.” (Bold added for emphasis) As you can see, having the meaning of the word “maleim” works to clarify what is being expressed here in this verse, and in other verses like it and is NOT just as one would “assume” to be, nor is it support for reading out of only ONE Bible translation of version in English, as the translation or version may be influenced by preconceived ideas and pick and or choose a word that does not conflict with their dogma, which is NOT what a translator should do, but the fact remains that I was able to demonstrate this above, which goes to show that we need to do more than just take the word of “favorite” Bible as this is NOT enough on which to base your decisions on!

Thus, if you look at the definition of “maliem”, we see that this Hebrew word can be used to describe false gods, demons, angels bad and good, God himself, heavenly beings, and Jesus, since he is a heavenly being, and is the most Godlike person in the spirit world. So I agree, Jesus is indeed the same form and substance as God, but he is NOT GOD HIMSELF!!!
So, one can have a Son, like God having a Son, and for that matter many sons, in the spirit world, and they are (Psalms 89:6, Job 1:6; and 2:1 and 38:7) all Sons of God, and yet there is no violation of polytheism as we are told in the Bible to worship God alone.

Did you know that Jesus himself said this to worship his Father and God alone and not him? I trust you know that when the New Testament inspired writers, quoted form the Old Testament, like in the account where Jesus was being tempted by the Devil, Jesus in reply at Matthew 4:4, (and in the parallel account at Luke Chapter 4) quotes from Deuteronomy 8:3; In Matthew 4:7, from Deuteronomy 6:16; and finally at Matthew 4:10, Deuteronomy 10:20; and please further note that in all cases, Jesus was quoting the Hebrew scriptures (OT) that clearly and incontrovertibly contain God’s personal name, YHWH, the ineffable name (Divine Name) that we have come to know in English as Jehovah.

So Jesus tells us to worship his Father and God, and on one else.

TonyP

[turtle]

Turtle: You said That when I grasp a concept, that I can't explain it??

The answer's are there for thoughs who seek them. If one sets out on a journey believing all is beyond their abilities to comprehind, they just might as well stay home. At the same time such persons do claim wisdom by announcing their indesicivness as being some how enlightened about such follies.

Mystical interpretations are of know value to any, and to think such as being enlightened only adds creadence to the falling away. When one finds they contradict themselves at vertually every opportunity, and then claim mystical wisdom darkness then prevails. As the minds of men are then destined to absurdity.

DOB!

I meant i could not explain Dob, on so we are in the same boat. I feel much better, and the rest of the world is looking odd at us. Like we really lost our sense. You really should not use big words with me you make me have to think. So now you are dealing with a camel of the context, context, context too. Himm, if you find something else let me know.

[oneway]

i beleive the needles eye was an actual needle and that because of a rich mans thought about money and love of it it would be easier for a camel to get though than the rich man there is a teaching which can also be true that the needles eye was the door way that a camel would ave to stoop down to even try to get throough



I'll tell you what arron, you supply the camel, and I'll supply the eye of the needle, just to see how much easier it would be to get thru this eye of the needle. The fact is, it would be impossible. Jesus never said it would be impossible for the camel to go thru the eye of the needle. He said it would be easier. This tells us that He wasn't speaking literally about a sewing needle. I can tell you what the eye of the needle was, but you wouldn't believe me anyway. But I will say this, there was literally an eye of the needle, that a camel could indeed pass thru, but it wasn't a sewing needle. In order for the camel to pass thru, it had to literally humble itself to the ground in order to do so.

[turtle]

I'll tell you what arron, you supply the camel, and I'll supply the eye of the needle, just to see how much easier it would be to get thru this eye of the needle. The fact is, it would be impossible. Jesus never said it would be impossible for the camel to go thru the eye of the needle. He said it would be easier. This tells us that He wasn't speaking literally about a sewing needle. I can tell you what the eye of the needle was, but you wouldn't believe me anyway. But I will say this, there was literally an eye of the needle, that a camel could indeed pass thru, but it wasn't a sewing needle. In order for the camel to pass thru, it had to literally humble itself to the ground in order to do so.

Will I once thought like you did oneway, but now I have to stop and think. see commentaries do not back the gate with a tunnel theory. Now go about proving it I went to my hebrew and greek dictionary, It gets even worse. The fact is not everything we are taught is in accuracy or is it oral interpetation that been handed down through the centuries. Will Only those versed in Jewish world might have that answer or someone that gone and been to Israel to see the way merchants had to enter in. so my question is to those theologians out there what is the truth.

[oneway]

Will I once thought like you did oneway, but now I have to stop and think. see commentaries do not back the gate with a tunnel theory. Now go about proving it I went to my hebrew and greek dictionary, It gets even worse. The fact is not everything we are taught is in accuracy or is it oral interpetation that been handed down through the centuries. Will Only those versed in Jewish world might have that answer or someone that gone and been to Israel to see the way merchants had to enter in. so my question is to those theologians out there what is the truth.



Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


turtle, no matter what we can prove or not prove the eye of the needle was, the fact is, we still have to pay attention to the text.

The text states "
Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle"

Since the text states that it is easier, then we can be assured that it's a possibilty, and not an impossibility. For a camel to literally squeeze thru a sewing needle, this would be an impossibility. And this impossibility is not just limited to camels, lol. Go find a sewing needle, and see for yourself what you can literally get thru it's eye. This means that there must be a logical connection between camels and the eye of needles, and that it has to be interpreted according to this logical connection, in order to even begin to understand the intended msg here.

[turtle]

Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


turtle, no matter what we can prove or not prove the eye of the needle was, the fact is, we still have to pay attention to the text.

The text states "
Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle"

Since the text states that it is easier, then we can be assured that it's a possibilty, and not an impossibility. For a camel to literally squeeze thru a sewing needle, this would be an impossibility. And this impossibility is not just limited to camels, lol. Go find a sewing needle, and see for yourself what you can literally get thru it's eye. This means that there must be a logical connection between camels and the eye of needles, and that it has to be interpreted according to this logical connection, in order to even begin to understand the intended msg here.

Well I am just quoting a minister sermond I seen online. Anyway, needless to say I cross stitch, so I know how small eyes of needles can be, but back in them days needles were perhaps not has small as they are today. Or maybe it was some other device. It kind of like trying to put tooth paste that is put on a ball bat, back in a tube. Not impossible, but hard to do. Now as far as possibilities, I knew a preacher that took a small piece of paper the quarter size of a piece of typing paper and cut it so it would fit around the altar table to illustrate a point. Of course he folder two times before making his cuts. The illustration was to prove nothing is impossible for God. No one believe it could be done, but yes it is true it is possible.

[praetorian]

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and should be worshipped and glorified.
The Athanasian Creed calls some of these ideas uncomprehensible.
I bow before the throne and proclaim as Thomas did, "My Lord and My God." John 20:28


Dear Easeltine:

Listen carefully to what you are saying; Knowing full well the history of the Athanasian Creed, as these events were not done in a closet, and that the same originates with outside sources, which the Bible calls Pagan…you will, despite this, continue to believe in the same…Got it….and this is where we clearly separate as I will only use the Bible for such guidance and you will defer to sources outside the Bible that are not inspired by God, for you to choose what you will do and not do when it comes to worshipping the God of the Bible!

OK, enough said on this matter!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Let's throw it in. The word, In John 1:1. Lets stop there before going further in John 1. Who is God's word. Jeus. Now this gets a little nutty. Does it literally mean Word is the spoken word or does it mean something else. I tend to think it means the spoken word, but the fact that the trinity is through out the beginning that causes confusion. But no not really. See If the Son is God literal Spirit and He became flesh then it is God's son, but God's Spirit, but also the literal spoken word, with the HOly Spirit being action. Now that gets totally confusing to the average person don't you think. I think that why minister tend not to talk about it. Butthen you get more indepth and in a place in revelation I can't lay my hands on the reference but it gives it exactly like I am saying. The spoken word being Christ, the Holy Spirit going forth, yet the Word did become flesh, so you have the son in the middle of the throne in revelations. Almost like a divided cell, but united.

Turtle:

I agree that the word is Jesus. You know that the Bible says, he Jesus is the Word of God, and in effect he is God’s spokesman (out mediator, intercessor) thus the actual term “word” here, is being used a Title identifier for Jesus.

I also provided you, as you can refer to on page three of this thread, third response down, your response to me, where you quote me using 16 English Bibles all of whom translate John 1:1-3 differently than to what is stated in the KJV, or NIV to demonstrate that you cannot rely on your “feelings” to pick and choose one over the other, especially without doing the research to see why this is so.

You are now saying Jesus is “God’s literal spirit” and if to show he is part of a Trinity again, so I must ask, show me the proof in the Bible where the scriptures clearly state so, without your having to try and twist words, or interpret that the “sky is really the earth” and so on, by referring me to dogma, creeds, theology’s opinions etc. Let me help you out….there is NO such scripture, other than your beliefs and those who think like you!!!!!

You go on from here to clearly state, “Now that gets totally confusing to the average person don’t you think. I think that why minister tend not to talk about it” and you should stop right here and ask yourself, what you are saying….you are saying that you believe in something that is totally confusing, and even ministers tend not to talk about it, and then go on to tell me and everyone on this board that despite this you believe in the Trinity? Are you seriously buying into this? I am certain you would not buy a house or engage in a serious contractual decision based on it being totally confusing, and not talked about, and yet at the same time you take solace in an explanation? This is not rationale thinking!!!!!! This does not make any sense and God is NOT a God of confusion or of disorder as you are making him out to be!!!

Either Jesus meant what he said, or he lied. What did he say; He said that he was born to tell the “truth” (John 18:37) and he is the way and the “truth” and the life, (John 14:6) and that we are to worship God, (his God and Father) in spirit and “truth” (John 8:31,332) and finally, that if we remain his teachings, we will know the “truth” and that the “truth” (same truth) will set us free (John 18:31-32) so how we he say those words with certainty and conviction, or are you saying he did not mean them. If we listen to you and those who think like you, the concept of the “truth” Jesus lived and died for, that we should know and find, that according to his own words will also have the power to set us free, (from religious enslavement as we are free in America etc) is NOT the case, in order to exchange it with your thinking that is so confusing that even ministers do not talk about it!

You then go on to mention that one can get more in depth and in a place a revelation on the reference” and I reply that this makes make no sense. As, if you admit it is confusing to the point that ministers don’t want to talk about it, but it can be clarified, or become less confusing, when you do more in depth and in place revelation, then it truly makes no sense!!!!! You make no sense what so ever….Please re-read and listen to your own words!!!!!

I agree that that the word, Jesus Christ became flesh, as this is what the Bible teaches, but NOT that this scripture supports that Jesus is God in a Trinity and that he Jesus is like some “cell divided.”

Your own post clearly shows that you believe in these things due to your own personal revelations, feelings and opinions, though NOT THE BIBLE. Thank you for your honesty!

Tony?

[truth_child]

and one way ... what did i just say i told where the needle could have been a way or door into a place

[praetorian]

praetorian, how do you deal with these Scriptures?



John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Not only does Christ claim to be the Son of God, the Jews are wanting to stone Him because they claim He, being a man, is making Himself God. Now if the Son of God fits your def, that Christ is merely a created being that pre-existed in human form in heaven, then why didn't the Jews also know this? Why did they assume that Christ was claiming to be God, if Christ really wasn't claiming to be God? Are you suggesting that Christ was merely lying about His deity, or perhaps the Jews were basically misunderstanding Him??

Hi Oneway:

It sure has been a long time and we have actually done this dance as well, you and I!

But since you forgot and or are making like my previous posts to you and on this board do not exist, like ones that discuss the undeniable historicity and fact of the Trinity, the English Bibles that express something differently at John 1:1-3, the other Bibles that do not have Jesus being worshipped, where Jesus quoted scriptures against Satan to worship God (YHWH), the scriptures that were inspired and written after Jesus went back to heaven (Point: If Jesus was God and went back to heaven to be God, or Join into being God again, then why not have the scriptures simple express this) where it states the “Father and God of our Lord Jesus; etc. etc. etc, I will respond below. I state this, because one cannot refute the evidence provided even if one were to find a “single” scripture that “might” state otherwise. Here is what I mean Oneway.

We all know, that cars, Ford, Chevy’s etc. do not fly. So therefore, if you read in a book a statement, that says, “that car flew right by me”…..you would know in English, that I was speaking hyperbole, because cars do not fly, so after checking out that cars don’t fly, (if you speak another language) by checking dictionaries, lexicons etc, one could easily come to the conclusion that what the writer meant (without interpreting anything) is that the car sped on by the person very fast why? Again, knowing what a car is, and it’s limitations etc. One can easily come to that conclusion, and it would not be reasonable that I would stick to the exact word in this instance, to make my case that cars do fly! However, we are fortunate that in this case, this is NOT the issue at all!!!!!

You ask, “praetorian, how do you deal with these Scriptures?” and my response is, let us see what the scriptures express about this, instead of what I think, as what I and or you think is worthless when compared to what the Bible really teaches and or expresses on this and all matters it speaks of!

Let us first list show these scriptures below from the NIV at John 10-33-36:
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[a]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Now, let us view only verse 33 here from the Contemporary English Version:
33They answered, "We are not stoning you because of any good thing you did. We are stoning you because you did a terrible thing. You are just a man, and here you are claiming to be God!"

And also view it from only verse 33 from New Century Version:
33 They answered, "We are not killing you because of any good work you did, but because you speak against God. You are only a human, but you say you are the same as God!"
In the above verse 33, we have the following statements to focus in on; “claim to be God”, “claiming to be God” and “but you say you are the same as God.” All being said not by Jesus, but by the side wanting to Kill Him and eventually did!!!!

Without getting into what the Greek says here, (which is the way to totally and correctly understand this in English) we have here above two Bibles stating that he is “claiming to be God” (which some can use to support the Trinity) while the third Bible says, that he is making himself the “same as God.” This “same” as God can be understood to mean same like in substance or form, etc, but NOT the same as in a Trinity. Even if one could take the way the third Bible expresses this above as “same” to support the Trinity, the fact that it is expressed differently in English Bibles, shows that again, there must be something more to this, than meets the eye in the Greek! Also you will note again, that it is the crowd, specifically the religious leaders who want to kill him that are the ones stating that “he is God” or the “same as God” as these are NOT Jesus words! Surely you are not suggesting that God’s enemies teach us the truth about God, are you????

Thus the question here should be; Are there any scriptures in the Gospels that we can turn to, in order to see which of these understandings is more correct or shed some light on the same!!! And the answer is yes? (Provided that you are not already convinced that the ones stating this is NOT Jesus but his enemies-DUH).

It is interesting to note what it says in the same Book of John Chapter 5, where a similar occasion arose, where the Jews wanted to kill Jesus, though this time for healing a man and for what he specifically states….. which is in direct line, theme and thought as to what occurs and is expressed, discussed above in John 10:33; where it states John 5:17,18: (Again from the standpoint of the people in false religion trying to and eventually Kill Him).
“17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.” (NIV) Why? Well, if you had children, would it not be fair assume that there were equal with you in form and substance, human offspring? The same holds true here, for Jesus since we indeed know him to be God’s Son, he would have to be of the same substance or form as God, (spirit) when he was in Heaven, before coming to earth and becoming human, to later return to Heaven as a spirit being, having finished all his Father had wanted him to do, therefore and in this way, is how we, according to the Bible are to understand this text.
I do tend to agree with your words, “Not only does Christ claim to be the Son of God” which is CRYSTAL CLEAR, however, not with the remainder of what you express, since as you put it, “because they claim He, being a man, is making Himself God” as Jesus did not claim to be equal to God ever, not as a man nor in Heaven! You will NOT find one scripture on this. I challenge you to do produce this!!!

In fact John 10, the place you refer me to in the first place, makes crystal clear, that his claim as “God’s Son” is much less than theirs, since he quoted the law where it states that the Jewish Religious leaders were “God(s)”, when sitting in Judgment against the people.
By the way, this would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to explain to everyone, that he indeed was God, as he was not afraid of telling the truth, as Jesus could have easily said something like, “I am God, here on Earth a part me is here, but when I return to Heaven I will be Completely God again” …….but no where in the scriptures do we find anything resembling this words!!!

You now express something strange, “….Christ is merely a created being that pre-existed in human form in heaven, then why didn't the Jews also know this?” and the Bible does not teach that Humans can reside or live in Heaven. When Jesus was in Heaven, he was like God, and like all the other Sons of God, who are like God, they are spirit beings, heavenly beings, not humans. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven!
What we have is people like you that want this to be so, based on dogma’s creeds, theology and lies though NOT BIBLE!!!!

TonyP

[turtle]

Hi Oneway

We all know, that cars, Ford, Chevy’s etc. do not fly. So therefore, if you read in a book a statement, that says, “that car flew right by me”…..you would know in English, that I was speaking hyperbole, because cars do not fly, so after checking out that cars don’t fly, (if you speak another language) by checking dictionaries, lexicons etc, one could easily come to the conclusion that what the writer meant (without interpreting anything) is that the car sped on by the person very fast why? Again, knowing what a car is, and it’s limitations etc. One can easily come to that conclusion, and it would not be reasonable that I would stick to the exact word in this instance, to make my case that cars do fly! However, we are fortunate that in this case, this is NOT the issue at all!!!!!

You ask, “praetorian, how do you deal with these Scriptures?” and my response is, let us see what the scriptures express about this, instead of what I think, as what I and or you think is worthless when compared to what the Bible really teaches and or expresses on this and all matters it speaks of!


TonyP

Now Tony you apparently never watch the Dukes of Hazzard have you. I can tell because if you had you know cars can fly, of course I would not recommend anyone trying it but those who do stunts.

[praetorian]

Mr. Praetorian



You would be a great distance ahead to realize anyone with a desire to know the truth can easily find it. Glossing over or outright lying about history, scripture or criminal activity does not help your case. Playing the lurckers for fools is never wise. Now, I suggest you start over with the truth, nor your religion's mantras.


TATM:

Wow, since you can find the truth, aren’t you SPECIAL, so, tell us by supporting the same, though how about sticking to the topic at hand.

I have not glossed over history nor scripture, and as to criminal activity, I am not sure where this was used by me or anyone else, other than to imply that wrong activities, due border on what is criminal, and those who do so should be held accountable!

So, let’s see, please start with, where my posts contain religious untruths and false histories!
I have not used mantras, never do, it is folks like you who believe they are so cocked sure of themselves, that imply things, they believe are true, that are not only wrong, but that can bite them in the end.
This works both ways!

You draw first blood, and I will respond!

TonyP

[easeltine]

Tony,

Thank you for taking time to reply to my posts.
I am not going to Post a whole bunch of Scriptures and go through them. This has been done many times. I am just going to again Post the following Scripture:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God. "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

You can not have more than one Almighty God by definition.

[oneway]

and one way ... what did i just say i told where the needle could have been a way or door into a place



Hi arron. You did indeed say that. I just reread your post. I have no idea how I missed that. I humbly apologize for the misunderstanding on my part. It seems I've been doing this quite a bit lately. But not on purpose tho. Perhaps old age is catching up with me since I happen to now be 50.

[easeltine]

Turtle,

How do you understand these verse and what is your interpetation Easeltine?

Matthew 19:24 KJV
(24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

It is an actual needle and not the gate idea. Of course, this Scripture goes with the one found in Matthew 7:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Salvation is a narrow way. It is not as broad as the American Christian Church thinks it is. It is not just saying the words, rather saying and doing Christ. There are fewer that actually know Him as Lord.

[turtle]

Turtle,

How do you understand these verse and what is your interpetation Easeltine?

Matthew 19:24 KJV
(24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

It is an actual needle and not the gate idea. Of course, this Scripture goes with the one found in Matthew 7:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Salvation is a narrow way. It is not as broad as the American Christian Church thinks it is. It is not just saying the words, rather saying and doing Christ. There are fewer that actually know Him as Lord.

I agree, you know I got to thinking on the subject after finding out their was a different interpetation from what I was taught. I mean thinking about what is being really said. The fact is that door is their for everyone but that door is a narrow opening which to really go through because it is oneway and that is through Jesus Christ. Most do not want to here it though. I was going to rerespond to what I said, but decide to see what others were thinking on this subject.

[truth_child]

turtle and easeltine that is what ive always been taught that it was a needle i was just giveing what some others believe about it, but at any rate ricjes does bring problems if you love riches more than the WILL OF GOD

[turtle]

I agree, you know I got to thinking on the subject after finding out their was a different interpetation from what I was taught. I mean thinking about what is being really said. The fact is that door is their for everyone but that door is a narrow opening which to really go through because it is oneway and that is through Jesus Christ. Most do not want to here it though. I was going to rerespond to what I said, but decide to see what others were thinking on this subject.

Fact wolves do come in sheep clothing. They look innocent, but they are raging wolves. Our enemy loves to try and deceive. I just do not think people though are expecting them to be behind a pulpit on sunday morning and I do not think every minister is a wolf, but it easy for them to sneak in unaware.

[praetorian]

Tony,

It would be useless to go over every Scripture that you have posted Tony. A Trinitarian sees these Scriptures from another viewpoint. I'm just going to again post what I posted above and point to another Scripture that states the logic that supports the doctrine of the Trinity. Your posting is very similar to a J.W.'s belief.

What I posted:

Isaiah 44:6 - You cannot separate God. For this makes Jesus another God.
If Jesus is a god/God you are a polytheist.
As the Athanasian Creed logically states, The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Holy Spirit is Almighty, yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

This is logical by the definition of the word/idea of Almighty.

Is. 9:6 - "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"
Jesus is One Substance with the Father.

This above verse, cross referenced with the idea expressed in Isaiah 44:6 shows that one should never, and cannot make Jesus a lesser God. Jesus Christ says the following in Revelation 1:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty."

Jesus in this verse is stating that He is "the Almighty." The idea that Jesus Christ is "the Almighty," or Onipotent, shows that He is God by the very definition of the word Almighty. This is why Jesus Christ says, "before Abraham was I Am." This is a critical point to understand, for one is not part of "Christianity" unless one does. I believe that, "The Athanasian Creed," (written before 500 AD, maybe by Saint Ambrose around 350 AD), is truth.



Easeltine:

You say, “it would be useless to go over every Scripture that you have posted Tony” and I say, when it comes to salvation, and or worship of God, there can never be enough scriptures to go over, as the few I posted are nothing in comparison to the entire body of scriptures contained in the Bible. Also, I would venture to say that in a non spiritual atmosphere, like when buying a home etc. that you would comb through the documents, carefully, often times with legal or competent counsel, to ensure you understand what you are getting into and what has been represented; how much more so with our worship of God and our salvation!

I very much agree with your next words “A Trinitarian sees these Scriptures from another viewpoint” and I think that is a fair and honest statement, as Trinitarians do in fact see scriptures with a different viewpoint; and that is my point, they do not see them for what they are alone, without the doctrine of the Trinity. CASE AND POINT: Had there never been a counsel of Nicea or an Anathasian Creed, one would be forced to ONLY use the Bible, and I am suggesting that we do that today, use the Bible and if one does, you will be unable to view it with a Trinitarian eye or slant!

You state logic and belief of the Trinity in the same sentence and I submit that it is diametrically opposed to itself as in the end, you are left with mystery and or difficulty in comprehension, and submit that God nor his Son did not complicate things, men and women do!

And yes, I am a JW!

You use for support of your belief, the Anathasian Creed, in order to explain scripture and that is the point! Without this Creed, or Dogma, the Bible by itself and in and of itself DOES NOT TEACH SUCH A THING!!!!

Almighty does not mean that he MUST do everything all the time, like the strongest man in the world, having to lift everything constantly as he passes by it! That does not make sense! If you are saying that due to his Almightiness, he can choose to be a Trinity, or anything else you are indeed correct, but the Bible facts by themselves, without such a Creed do not teach nor support this by themselves!

The Bible, makes Jesus a different God, as he had a beginning, and that is crystal clear in the Bible, now if you wish to call him lesser, and by lesser, I mean he is NOT the same EXACT spirit person then he is! 1 Corinthians 11:3, written well after his ascension to Heaven says that God is Jesus’s Head! Also Philippians 2:5 (NIV) says that our attitude should be like Jesus, “Who, being in very nature[a] God,” and the footnote here reads “form” did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” and verse 9, says, that due to the attitude Jesus displayed, that God then, “God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name” and note, how God exalted Jesus, his Son, but this does not mean above God himself why? 1 Corinthians 15:27 states, “For he "has put everything under his feet."[a] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.” We have clear understanding that Jesus is Not God, nor equal to God and that God is not nor ever made subject to him. And John 1:18, makes clear that Jesus (depending upon the Bible you use) is the “only begotten Son/God” which clearly denotes a beginning, or as in the Greek, a “first generated Son/God” as God, Jesus’ Father and God has never been created, and has always been in existence!

As to the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:8, you are “assuming” that Jesus is stating this, meaning that he Jesus is God, when in verse 1 it plainly states, “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him” meaning simply that God gave Jesus this revelation and that Jesus then passed onward. You simply cannot read verse 8 alone without the whole context and the context tells that that they are different, or it would not make sense for God to give it God himself, and then pass it on accordingly. The problem here is as you admitted it to be, that you and those like you, view the scriptures in harmony with the pagan originated Anathasian Creed! As the Bible alone, here speaks of two separate persons!!!

In the end, knowing full well that the history of this Creed originates from outside the Bible, is what you are basing you entire belief system!

I hope you never go to court with similar circumstances, as using a proof a matter that is disconnected from the events, as not only would it be thrown out, you would have a rude awakening!

Sorry you feel that way!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Tony,

Thank you for taking time to reply to my posts.
I am not going to Post a whole bunch of Scriptures and go through them. This has been done many times. I am just going to again Post the following Scripture:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God. "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

You can not have more than one Almighty God by definition.


Dear Easeltine:

I am sorry that I did not see this post before replying to yours on the previous page!

You simple cannot take Revelation 1:8 alone without noting the obvious, that in verse 1, of Chapter 1, we read that God gave Jesus this revelation!

We do not have more than one Almighty God, as the Bible clearly expresses, it is you, via what you admitted, through the Anathasian Creed, that believes that Jesus and God are the same identical spirit person, being, creature etc, and the Bible does not teach that at all!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Now Tony you apparently never watch the Dukes of Hazzard have you. I can tell because if you had you know cars can fly, of course I would not recommend anyone trying it but those who do stunts.

That is silly as the point was to express that we know that "cars do not fly" but of course, we can take a car and fly over a bridge or in a stunt on a movie etc, but in the end, cars don't fly!

TonyP

[turtle]

Dear Easeltine:

I am sorry that I did not see this post before replying to yours on the previous page!

You simple cannot take Revelation 1:8 alone without noting the obvious, that in verse 1, of Chapter 1, we read that God gave Jesus this revelation!

We do not have more than one Almighty God, as the Bible clearly expresses, it is you, via what you admitted, through the Anathasian Creed, that believes that Jesus and God are the same identical spirit person, being, creature etc, and the Bible does not teach that at all!!!

TonyP

Tony P you goofed God gave John the revelation. Apostle John not Jesus. Jesus however was present further in the chapter holding the seven candlesticks.

[praetorian]

Tony P you goofed God gave John the revelation. Apostle John not Jesus. Jesus however was present further in the chapter holding the seven candlesticks.

NIV:

Revelation 1: 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John"

Do you EVER really READ the Bible!!!!

[turtle]

NIV:

Revelation 1: 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John"

Do you EVER really READ the Bible!!!!

Yes very often and you can not read verse one without reading verse two

Revelation 1:1-2 KJV
(1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
(2) Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Angel here means servant of God. Now how do I know this it is in the greek as so.

strongs greek and hebrew dictionary

ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

Angel(minister) show God's servants who are other ministers

Not the message is called the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Who the angel/minister was John, because he bore recorded of Jesus, In other words he walked and talk with Jesus on this earth. One must remember John is writting from an island called patmos.

Revelation 1:9 KJV
(9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And this one I knew I knew because I have done research on it. Hang me up somewhere else will you.

[truth_child]

turtle are you saying that the angel is john? GOD sent it by ,,, HIS angel to john it was JESUS SPEAKING TO john

[turtle]

turtle are you saying that the angel is john? GOD sent it by ,,, HIS angel to john it was JESUS SPEAKING TO john

Angel in this case is not a seraphim. Okay. Angel is defined as minister.

[praetorian]

Angel in this case is not a seraphim. Okay. Angel is defined as minister.


Turtle:

Please read, very slowly, verses 1-3 of Revelation Chapter 1, and here it is from the NIV and note, Capital Letters below added by me for emphasis!!!!!!!

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE HIM to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The latter verses does NOTHING to change, alter or contradict the words in verse 1 in Bold!!!!!!!!

Question to help you out? Who gave this revelation to Jesus Christ??????

Stop the madness? Do you really have such a poor command of the English language? Go get a 5th grader to read this to you for help!

TonyP

[praetorian]

When folks like you Turle, admit they use outside sources over the Bible, when confronted with the Bible contradicting their views, they CHANGE THE SUBJECT MATTER, BUT KNOW THIS, THAT YOUR DOING SO DOES NOTHING TO ALTER THE FACT THAT GOD GAVE TO JESUS THE REVELATION PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS!!!!!!!

[truth_child]

i use the bible for im afraid to say GOD

[truth_child]

i use the bile for im afraid to say GOD said it we HE DIDNT

[turtle]

When folks like you Turle, admit they use outside sources over the Bible, when confronted with the Bible contradicting their views, they CHANGE THE SUBJECT MATTER, BUT KNOW THIS, THAT YOUR DOING SO DOES NOTHING TO ALTER THE FACT THAT GOD GAVE TO JESUS THE REVELATION PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS!!!!!!!

It is you that speaks no english because I am going to highlight the word you are over looking in the NiV

Revelation 1:1-2 ISV
(1) This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
(2) who testified to what he saw: the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ.

OF IS A PREPOSITION WORD. oF MEAN WHO IT IS ABOUT. PERIOD IN OF SENTENCE IT IS A REVELATION ABOUT JESUS CHRIST.

[praetorian]

i use the bile for im afraid to say GOD said it we HE DIDNT

Turtle:

Please read, very slowly, verses 1-3 of Revelation Chapter 1, and here it is from the NIV and note, Capital Letters below added by me for emphasis!!!!!!!

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE HIM to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The latter verses does NOTHING to change, alter or contradict the words in verse 1 in Bold!!!!!!!!

Question to help you out? Who gave this revelation to Jesus Christ??????

Stop the madness? Do you really have such a poor command of the English language? Go get a 5th grader to read this to you for help!

TonyP

P.S. TC, if you are afraid of quoting your Father, the problem is with your relationship, BUT this does not change or alter the subject matter at hand, which is this: "WHICH GAVE HIM" and I am sorry that you feel you cannot rely or quote your Heavenly Father! I have a wonderful relationship, like I had with my earthy biological Father, and yes, I can quote from my Father's writings as to what He says and does not say!!!

[turtle]

Turtle:

Please read, very slowly, verses 1-3 of Revelation Chapter 1, and here it is from the NIV and note, Capital Letters below added by me for emphasis!!!!!!!

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE HIM to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The latter verses does NOTHING to change, alter or contradict the words in verse 1 in Bold!!!!!!!!

Question to help you out? Who gave this revelation to Jesus Christ??????

Stop the madness? Do you really have such a poor command of the English language? Go get a 5th grader to read this to you for help!

TonyP

P.S. TC, if you are afraid of quoting your Father, the problem is with your relationship, BUT this does not change or alter the subject matter at hand, which is this: "WHICH GAVE HIM" and I am sorry that you feel you cannot rely or quote your Heavenly Father! I have a wonderful relationship, like I had with my earthy biological Father, and yes, I can quote from my Father's writings as to what He says and does not say!!!

I covered read my post above Praetorian, oh chucks neither of us like to back track.

John is the the one God is speaking to. oh okay I know what i said now. I am prone to error too, but the angel is John.

[praetorian]

It is you that speaks no english because I am going to highlight the word you are over looking in the NiV

Revelation 1:1-2 ISV
(1) This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
(2) who testified to what he saw: the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ.

OF IS A PREPOSITION WORD. oF MEAN WHO IT IS ABOUT. PERIOD IN OF SENTENCE IT IS A REVELATION ABOUT JESUS CHRIST.

Turtle:

Using your words, if “OF” means, again, according to you, “ABOUT”, then, the FACT REMAINS THE SAME, so let me put it in your words again in a manner that you might understand,,,,,more slowly.

Drum Roll please….Revelation 1:1”The revelation of [ABOUT]Jesus Christ, which God gave him [WHO GAVE JESUS THIS REVELATION ABOUT HIM---NOT JESUS BUT GOD----DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1] now why; “to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John”

NOTHING CHANGES HERE!!!!!!!! AND SINCE WE GET THIS FROM THE GREEK, YOU ARE ARGUING OVER NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GET A LIFE BY STARTING FIRST TO BE HONEST WITH YOUR SELF!!!!!

Tony?

[turtle]

Turtle:

Using your words, if “OF” means, again, according to you, “ABOUT”, then, the FACT REMAINS THE SAME, so let me put it in your words again in a manner that you might understand,,,,,more slowly.

Drum Roll please….Revelation 1:1”The revelation of [ABOUT]Jesus Christ, which God gave him [WHO GAVE JESUS THIS REVELATION ABOUT HIM---NOT JESUS BUT GOD----DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1] now why; “to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John”

NOTHING CHANGES HERE!!!!!!!! AND SINCE WE GET THIS FROM THE GREEK, YOU ARE ARGUING OVER NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GET A LIFE BY STARTING FIRST TO BE HONEST WITH YOUR SELF!!!!!

Tony?

I am very honest with myself you apparently still can not read.

The word of answers what it is about.

[praetorian]

I am very honest with myself you apparently still can not read.

The word of answers what it is about.

OK, so I am the one that cannot read; and how I value your opinion! I can tell you that when I am confronted by such overwhelming proof, despite how I feel, I make necessary changes and adjustments, as being stubborn or stupid does not help anyone, but instead hurts them!!!!

How thankful I am that our posts can be compared, one after the other, or side by side, for anyone to see who is the one not comprehending here, as we have an indelible record on this board, that will not go away, like the history of the Anathasian Creed that will not go away, showing it is PAGAN!

Once more, the verse in Revelation 1:1, clearly shows that “God gave Jesus” a Revelation about him-Jesus (not that Jesus gave it to Jesus as that makes no sense) that was then passed down to an angel and then to John, ultimately to us.

POINT BEING: GOD GAVE IT TO HIM SO HE CANNOT BE THE SAME!!!

It is clear, that you and I have different value systems when it comes to being down right honest!

TonyP

[turtle]

OK, so I am the one that cannot read; and how I value your opinion! I can tell you that when I am confronted by such overwhelming proof, despite how I feel, I make necessary changes and adjustments, as being stubborn or stupid does not help anyone, but instead hurts them!!!!

How thankful I am that our posts can be compared, one after the other, or side by side, for anyone to see who is the one not comprehending here, as we have an indelible record on this board, that will not go away, like the history of the Anathasian Creed that will not go away, showing it is PAGAN!

Once more, the verse in Revelation 1:1, clearly shows that “God gave Jesus” a Revelation about him-Jesus (not that Jesus gave it to Jesus as that makes no sense) that was then passed down to an angel and then to John, ultimately to us.

POINT BEING: GOD GAVE IT TO HIM SO HE CANNOT BE THE SAME!!!

It is clear, that you and I have different value systems when it comes to being down right honest!

TonyP

Tony P where do you go to church or do you? Just curious if you do not mind sharing the group you affliate with.

[praetorian]

I am very honest with myself you apparently still can not read.

The word of answers what it is about.

OK, so I can’t read, then help me?

After quoting me above, you say:

“I am very honest with myself you apparently still can not read.” “The word of answers what it is about.”

You mention you believe, that you are “very honest with myself” meaning “yourself”, so I will have to take your word for it as the body of evidence, the writings above in this thread speak differently to this.

Now as to “The word of answers what it is about” and not sure what you mean, and since I have issues “reading”, perhaps you can explain what this means, as I truly have no clue!

Also, what does this have to do with the subject matter of God giving to Jesus the Revelation? Help, I cannot read??????

TonyP

[praetorian]

Tony P where do you go to church or do you? Just curious if you do not mind sharing the group you affliate with.

Turtle:

Take a moment and READ my posts, (and I have trouble reading) and you will see that I answer that!

But what does that have to do with the price of bananas, as God giving to Jesus the Revelation?

TonyP

[praetorian]

Tony P where do you go to church or do you? Just curious if you do not mind sharing the group you affliate with.

BTW: Where do you go to church or do you? Just curious too, if you do not mind sharing the group you affiliate with? As I already answered that!

TonyP

[turtle]

BTW: Where do you go to church or do you? Just curious too, if you do not mind sharing the group you affiliate with? As I already answered that!

TonyP

I have not seen your answer, but I am with a non denominational church that leans pentecostal, but you think you were in a methodist or baptist service sometimes. Now again about you someone said you were Jehovah witness, if that is correct that is why we view things differently. Maybe you should take a grammer class.

The word of is a preposition. It answers the question of either, how, what, when, where or who, and sometimes how.... I can't remember it been years.

[orthodox]

When I am thirsty I drink water. On a real hot day I put ice in it. If I drink to slow some of it evaporates into fog. 3 forms, one H2O

[praetorian]

I have not seen your answer, but I am with a non denominational church that leans pentecostal, but you think you were in a methodist or baptist service sometimes. Now again about you someone said you were Jehovah witness, if that is correct that is why we view things differently. Maybe you should take a grammer class.

The word of is a preposition. It answers the question of either, how, what, when, where or who, and sometimes how.... I can't remember it been years.

Turtle, Turtle, you name says it all, slow to start, slow to the finish line, if you get there! May I suggest Comcast service please!

In my post number 149, on page 8 of this thread, in my post to Easeltine, I state “And yes, I am a JW!” This is NOT new!

We view things differently NOT because I am a JW, (stop blaming others for your own admitted beliefs) but because I showed you scriptures, that you choose to ignore, like in Revelation 1:1, where it says as plain as the NOSE on your face, that GOD GAVE JESUS the Revelation which is about many more things, than about Jesus, to do to show that Jesus and God are not the same! It is your belief in the Anathasian Creed, and the scriptures you twist, that allow you to believe that God and Jesus are the same spirit person! I am talking Bible, you are talking what our professed faiths are! Wow!!!

Where do I go and get a grammar class that teaches TURTLE?

Whether we argue about prepositions, you judge for yourself, however, our posts stand against you and what you express! Even people who take the position I am wrong, cannot possibly agree with the way you have expressed yourself here, only to blame me for your poor understandings and expressions!

The records of our posts stand clear for all to see!

TonyP

[praetorian]

When I am thirsty I drink water. On a real hot day I put ice in it. If I drink to slow some of it evaporates into fog. 3 forms, one H2O

Dear Orthodox:

I trust you are fully aware that what you describe are components of ONE substance! Apart or alone, these substances do not make up the whole, H20.

This analogy does not even come close to the Pagan historic origin of the Anathasian Creed, and or what it says, and whose history is undeniable.

And please don't give me the, three in one oil, (same substance and thing) and or the Egg, three component parts that in and of themselves, by themselves, are not an Egg!

Our Body is one composite of multiple things, and yet we are one body, but the heart or brain etc, cannot by it self or in and of itself, or despite itself, work alone as one body, as the component itself does NOT the human body make!

The scriptures are so crystal clear, about Jesus and his Father being separate, is is spoken of throughout the Bible to the point of adnausem (Son of God, who is the Father-God) that in order to believe in such nonsense one has to resort to stories and analogies that have no bearing on TRUTH or Bible!!!

This concept or analogy of yours, "may" work on a child that does not have a fully developed mind! But even my poor humble mind and heart can catch this!!!

TonyP

[turtle]

When I am thirsty I drink water. On a real hot day I put ice in it. If I drink to slow some of it evaporates into fog. 3 forms, one H2O

I like a mountain creek flowing into a river into the ocean I like better.

[truth_child]

i use the bible for im afraid to say GOD said it when HE DIDNT
and that is it

[praetorian]

Wow, you people are totally clueless and gambling with your lives!

OK, I have a question for you (TC or Turtle) and or any of the Bible illuminati on this board!

Has God ever, appointed “another God”, to act for him? And if so, why was this not a conflict, with worshiping God or polytheism?

I can surely use your help with this!

TonyP

P.S. Ignorance is indeed Bliss!!!

[oneway]

Wow, you people are totally clueless and gambling with your lives!

OK, I have a question for you (TC or Turtle) and or any of the Bible illuminati on this board!

Has God ever, appointed “another God”, to act for him? And if so, why was this not a conflict, with worshiping God or polytheism?

I can surely use your help with this!

TonyP

P.S. Ignorance is indeed Bliss!!!



praetorian, you do indeed ask very difficult questions for some to answer in accordance to how some view Scriptures. You do indeed present your case rather well. To argue with what you have presented, would be to argue with Scripture itself, it would seem.

So, let me ask you some very difficult questions, in the sense as to whether they can be clearly answered by the Bible or not.


You say Jesus is not God. Ok, so then who is He? Does He have a beginning in eternity past, or has He always existed? And If He has a beginning, then you would need to show and prove that with Scriptures. Are you able to do that?

[truth_child]

who is JESUS if HE IS NOT THE SON OF GOD

[turtle]

OK, so I can’t read, then help me?

After quoting me above, you say:

“I am very honest with myself you apparently still can not read.” “The word of answers what it is about.”

You mention you believe, that you are “very honest with myself” meaning “yourself”, so I will have to take your word for it as the body of evidence, the writings above in this thread speak differently to this.

Now as to “The word of answers what it is about” and not sure what you mean, and since I have issues “reading”, perhaps you can explain what this means, as I truly have no clue!

Also, what does this have to do with the subject matter of God giving to Jesus the Revelation? Help, I cannot read??????

TonyP

I truly was going to take a day off from this message board, yet I must be some kind of weird addict.

I am glad you can admit you can not read. One often does believe what one is taught, why not trust people that are kind and good to you. But when you take time to examine the word of God for yourself then things can become clear. Jesus fully God and fully Human is a hard concept for many to grasp. It even hard to grasp his love for us for he went to the cross for our sins. Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins. The revelation of(speaks clearly that revelations is about Jesus) One must realize that when revelations was written John had already walked with Christ. The church was under great persecution. So by the direction of God to John, he wrote in a code the church was suppose to remember, but over the years have forgotten. Why is that one might ask, will over time we forget our own history.

[orthodox]

Anyone who has taken even a basic class in debating knows attacking your opponent's grammatical mistakes is a cheap shot and dispaly of equal fault.

It is also most unchristian of you. You owe Turtle an apology.

The trinity is a core belief of the orthodox church, which has kept an unbroken apostolic line of teaching since the church's very beginnings.Who's family history do you trust, your great grandmother's or the 5 y/o nephew who watches Power rangers on saturday?
I accept openly the grace of God in other sects.

But spare me the hubric concept of every Tom,Dick and Harry who rents a former laundromat, picks up a box of some hip new translation bibles and thinks his interpretation is superior to Saint John Crysostum and the other great fathers and mothers of the ancient church.

[truth_child]

yes i beleive that JESUS was fully GOD and at the same time was human or man

[oneway]

I truly was going to take a day off from this message board, yet I must be some kind of weird addict.

I am glad you can admit you can not read. One often does believe what one is taught, why not trust people that are kind and good to you. But when you take time to examine the word of God for yourself then things can become clear. Jesus fully God and fully Human is a hard concept for many to grasp. It even hard to grasp his love for us for he went to the cross for our sins. Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins. The revelation of(speaks clearly that revelations is about Jesus) One must realize that when revelations was written John had already walked with Christ. The church was under great persecution. So by the direction of God to John, he wrote in a code the church was suppose to remember, but over the years have forgotten. Why is that one might ask, will over time we forget our own history.



1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


And to add to what you stated, let's not forget these facts also. Who was the second man? Christ. Who was Christ? The Lord from heaven. Who was the Lord from heaven? God Himself. How can anyone miss that? Surely neither you nor I would. So I wonder why others might? Such as JWs?

[orthodox]

You know, sometimes when these debates get to tangled up I think back to Abbot and Costello's baseball routine and start to laugh.

[truth_child]

of cousrse GOD CAME DOWN BUT HE DID IT BY HIS SON JESUS WHO CAME TO DIE FOR us IT WAS NOT THE FATHER WHO DIED FOR us BUT THE SON

[dobman53]

I think you old buddy Dobs about ready to check out from this motel.

A thought came to mind hear last night, where I finally realised a main point of contention.

While I care about many on these threads, and I've come to know several as friends. It's time I bid farewell.

What ever I might have accomplished is done. The thought of life where continued bickering plays all parts has come to it's end.

You've heard my take, do with it what ever you like.

DOB!

[truth_child]

praise GOD just dont do anything foolish

[oneway]

of cousrse GOD CAME DOWN BUT HE DID IT BY HIS SON JESUS WHO CAME TO DIE FOR us IT WAS NOT THE FATHER WHO DIED FOR us BUT THE SON



arron, did anyone say it was the Father that died for any of us? Most of us understand that there is a distinction between the Father and the Son. Even the JW understands this distinction. They just don't believe Jesus is God.

[praetorian]

Dear Oneway:

You ask me a composite question, and I quote; “You say Jesus is not God. Ok, so then who is He? Does He have a beginning in eternity past, or has He always existed? And If He has a beginning, then you would need to show and prove that with Scriptures. Are you able to do that?”

I will start with your last question first, and then move on from there, “Are you able to do that?” and reply, that I need not be considered, what I will do is simply refer you to what the Bible says in answer to your queries.

Your next question is “You say Jesus is not God, OK, then who is He?” My reply is, I did not say anything, but I quoted the scriptures that simply and clearly express, that Jesus is the “Son of God”. For instance please note the scriptures where Jesus is called the “Son of God” as found in Matthew 26:63; Mark 3:11; Luke 4:31; Luke 22:70; John 1:34 and 49; John 5:25; John 11:4 and 27; John 20:31; Acts 9:20; 2 Corinthians 1:19; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 4:13; Hebrews 4:14; Hebrews 6: 6; 1 John 3:8; 1 John 4: 15; 1 John 5: 5, 10, 12, 13 and 20; all clearly, plainly and simply call Jesus the “Son of God” and not God!!!

You now ask, “Does He have a beginning in eternity past, or has He always existed?” Using the free bible website site at, www.biblegateway.com, John 1:18, reads the following way in the following Bibles below:

NIV: “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” The footnote for this scripture in the NIV, A & B on the same site, says, “or the Only Begotten” and “Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son” Note the use of “the only begotten” and or “only begotten.”

Now note the what the New American Standard Bible states: “A)No one has seen God at any time; (B)the “only begotten God” who is (C)in the bosom of the Father, (D)He has explained Him.” (See footnotes for scriptures references) This Bible clearly refers to Jesus as the “only begotten God”.

Now the English Standard Version states it similarly as “the only God who is at the Father’s side” The Amplified Bible calls Jesus “the only begotten God” as well, though the King James Version, the New King James, The American Standard Version, Young’s Literal Translation, Darby Translation, all refer to him as “the only begotten Son” with the Wycliff New Testament stating, “but the one begotten Son.”

So the question is, what does it mean when the Bible says, that someone is “the only begotten” or “only begotten” Son or God? Now, the best way to get an answer to this is again, to look to the Bible.

You may or may not know, that at Luke 9:38, (and there are two other places in Luke in the Greek manuscripts-all of them available today) the NIV says, “A man in the crowd called out, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child” while Young’s Literal Translation says, “and lo, a man from the multitude cried out, saying, `Teacher, I beseech thee, look upon my son, because he is my only begotten;” Now, it is clear that one Bible, or I will say, that most all Bible express it as “my only child” when there are some Bible’s, as evidenced here, that express it as “”my only begotten?” Why? Well, it is a FACT that the word used here at Luke 9:38, in the Greek Manuscripts, all of them, is the same word applied or used with regards to Jesus (even at John 3:16) where he also called the “only begotten Son/God”. The word in Greek, means, only son, only generated, and or first generated. The word can be found by looking it up on a free online manuscript at, http://www.scripture4all.org/, where you can download both a Hebrew and Greek Manuscript to see this for yourself!!!

Now, the word that is translated as “only begotten” for both Jesus and the child at Luke 9:38 is known as Strong’s Concordance number “3439” which in the end, means the “only” or in the case of more children, can refer to the “first born” or “generated” Son, which means, that Jesus clearly had a beginning!!! Now, you will need to use a Greek lexicon (a dictionary in another language that shows the definitions in English) that uses the Strong’s Concordance numbers, and you will know whether or not I am telling you the truth or if you have been deceived or lied to! Look it up!!!

It will show you that Jesus, like this child, (as the same exact word is used, though rarely translated correctly or should I say honestly) means, that Jesus had a beginning, as a Son, first one among other Sons of God, obviously in heaven, or as a God, also obviously in Heaven, as clearly stated in the Bible! So, therefore according to scriptures and information from the manuscripts sources above, Jesus did not have an eternal past, nor has he always existed as he had a beginning, was begotten or generated!

I welcome scriptural proof to the contrary, and remember, that if you find something, then before you bring it to my attention, you must first deal with the obvious contraction!

Sincerely,

TonyP

[praetorian]

Anyone who has taken even a basic class in debating knows attacking your opponent's grammatical mistakes is a cheap shot and dispaly of equal fault.

It is also most unchristian of you. You owe Turtle an apology.

The trinity is a core belief of the orthodox church, which has kept an unbroken apostolic line of teaching since the church's very beginnings.Who's family history do you trust, your great grandmother's or the 5 y/o nephew who watches Power rangers on saturday?
I accept openly the grace of God in other sects.

But spare me the hubric concept of every Tom,Dick and Harry who rents a former laundromat, picks up a box of some hip new translation bibles and thinks his interpretation is superior to Saint John Crysostum and the other great fathers and mothers of the ancient church.

Let me know!

[praetorian]

I truly was going to take a day off from this message board, yet I must be some kind of weird addict.

I am glad you can admit you can not read. One often does believe what one is taught, why not trust people that are kind and good to you. But when you take time to examine the word of God for yourself then things can become clear. Jesus fully God and fully Human is a hard concept for many to grasp. It even hard to grasp his love for us for he went to the cross for our sins. Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins. The revelation of(speaks clearly that revelations is about Jesus) One must realize that when revelations was written John had already walked with Christ. The church was under great persecution. So by the direction of God to John, he wrote in a code the church was suppose to remember, but over the years have forgotten. Why is that one might ask, will over time we forget our own history.

Turtle:

Go back to grade school!

I guess you needed to take my words and add the sarcastic inflection to get the opposite meaning!!! This makes no sense.

Tell me what you think a man, no I will use a woman, was about to open her new business, a dry cleaning store, and the only left to do, was to hang a sign. So to save money, the lady thought long and hard, and finally drafted the words, as she wanted something that would be catchy in order to attract business, and painted the following:

My name is Fink, what do you think, I do clothes for free.

The next day, she was delighted to find a line that went completely around the block, of people waiting to get into her store! When the first customer came in, with nearly all the clothes in her house, she was angry when the dry cleaning lady, gave her a receipt, with the estimated charges, and then exclaimed, ‘But you sign says, you do clothes for free.”
She immediately realized that she missed painting in the punctuation, and quickly added it; (You can add the inflection to address the correct punctuation here K!).

My name is Fink. What do you think? I, do clothes for Free!!!!

Same words, totally opposite meanings!

You prove it, you are indeed an idiot!

If my words were a bomb, you would be dead by now!

TonyP

[orthodox]

I just noticed you'r a declared Jehovah's Witness. Sorry, I cannot have a cogent conversation with anyone who bought into a charleton's cult with a documented history of fruadulant business activities and 'miracle wheat.'
Your 'bible' is a bastardised rewrite by an idiot precurser of Jim Jones, Tony Alamo and their ilk.
You are anything but a member of the wide body of world christianity. You are a cult along with the Mormons stealing from another religion.
It's apples and oranges, and your apple is rotten.

[turtle]

Turtle:

Go back to grade school!

I guess you needed to take my words and add the sarcastic inflection to get the opposite meaning!!! This makes no sense.

Tell me what you think a man, no I will use a woman, was about to open her new business, a dry cleaning store, and the only left to do, was to hang a sign. So to save money, the lady thought long and hard, and finally drafted the words, as she wanted something that would be catchy in order to attract business, and painted the following:

My name is Fink, what do you think, I do clothes for free.

The next day, she was delighted to find a line that went completely around the block, of people waiting to get into her store! When the first customer came in, with nearly all the clothes in her house, she was angry when the dry cleaning lady, gave her a receipt, with the estimated charges, and then exclaimed, ‘But you sign says, you do clothes for free.”
She immediately realized that she missed painting in the punctuation, and quickly added it; (You can add the inflection to address the correct punctuation here K!).

My name is Fink. What do you think? I, do clothes for Free!!!!

Same words, totally opposite meanings!

You prove it, you are indeed an idiot!

If my words were a bomb, you would be dead by now!

TonyP

Tony nothing is free in water world. And I am no fool, but you are mistaken.

[praetorian]

I just noticed you'r a declared Jehovah's Witness. Sorry, I cannot have a cogent conversation with anyone who bought into a charleton's cult with a documented history of fruadulant business activities and 'miracle wheat.'
Your 'bible' is a bastardised rewrite by an idiot precurser of Jim Jones, Tony Alamo and their ilk.
You are anything but a member of the wide body of world christianity. You are a cult along with the Mormons stealing from another religion.
It's apples and oranges, and your apple is rotten.

You must be a young pup! And this is a poor response, but that is to be expected from someone who is so gullible and believes everything they read!

You will note, oh bright one, that NOT ONCE in any of my posts, have I used, JW material or references! So if that is your excuse to avoid logical and reasonable responses, there is NOTHING MORE TO SAY TO YOU!!

Grow up!

And if you really believed the Bull your peddling then you must at the very least, think (among other negative things) that I am lost, so where is that Christian qualify of yours to save people?

Don't bother, just kidding!!!!

Always a pleasure! NOT!

[praetorian]

Tony nothing is free in water world. And I am no fool, but you are mistaken.

You do miss the point, please let us not exchage emails any further, K!

I don't speak Turtle and do not want to know how!

[orthodox]

I'll be 55 next month, hold a M.A. in archaeology with a minor in comparative religion and served 6 years in the military including combat. I can read the NT in the original greek and thee catholic version in Latin.
So I am no pup, or whatever burley, crossdressing canadian Monty Python lumberjacks call anyone who doesn't back down eh?
And I speak turtle, though it's slow going sometimes as that ancient species is prone to be.

[truth_child]

now now dont go trying to run someone off

[easeltine]

Orthodox,

That's an impressive amount of degrees.
Though, to make this subject simple it reminds me when my girl was young listening to a CD from The Donutman teaching the kids Genesis 1:1 - The kid bounces the ball and says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth Genesis 1:1." God is the Creator.
Genesis 1:26 says, "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." The Us and the Our is God the Father talking to God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Word in the first part of Genesis and the Spirit is found in vs. 2 of Genesis. Jesus was always the Son in the bosom of the Father. The first chapter I learned as a kid was Psalm 100 and vs. 3 says, "Know that the Lord Himself is God; It is He who has made us..." Jesus is clearly the Creator according to these verses and John 1 and Colossians 1.

As to the idea that the Father was talking to angels in Genesis 1:26, Sister O. from Oakland, Ca would probably sit down with any of you and say, "Honey child the Bible says that God created man, not some angels."

The Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds are all the Truth and Scripturally supportable!

[bear]

easeltine,

This is an off topic comment, but pertains to your post.

I had to smile when you spoke of the Donut Man. My oldest child used to watch him, and I can still remember the song: "life without God's love, is like a donut..."

[orthodox]

Whil I hold the apostolic succession, Nicene and athanasian Creed as truth I also know it would be a very, very foolish christian to denigrate any other branch of Chrisendom instead of finding common belief and fellowship.

All things considered, I would rather float in a liferaft with his holyness Pope Benedict- and he is a christian leader worthy of my respect if not total obedience; than osama bin laden. A Amish farmer would be real interesting and I might even help pull pastor Hagee in, though he might capsize or sink the raft.His Holyness the dalai lama would always be welcome. I've met him three times, and what people miss is his gentle warning many westerners will have trouble with buddhism because of the lack of focus on a supreme diety, and can find happiness in our own religions. The Rabbi who hands out $1 bills on the teaching of Mammonides " when two meet, a third should prosper" would make for a fascinating talk. This is the dialog we should be having, not knitpicking how many born again, infant baptised and thrice saved angels can dance on the head of a KJV bookmark on ash wednsday.

[orthodox]

Donutman gave a lot of kids some great sparklie thingy covered donut food for thought to lots of kids.;)

[bear]

You do miss the point, please let us not exchage emails any further, K!

I don't speak Turtle and do not want to know how!

I have been following your debate here, and I do agree with your point about Revelation.

Speaking turtle is not hard. You do need an interpreter sometimes, but I think over time you will find that she is a well meaning individual.

[bear]

Whil I hold the apostolic succession, Nicene and athanasian Creed as truth I also know it would be a very, very foolish christian to denigrate any other branch of Chrisendom instead of finding common belief and fellowship.

All things considered, I would rather float in a liferaft with his holyness Pope Benedict- and he is a christian leader worthy of my respect if not total obedience; than osama bin laden. A Amish farmer would be real interesting and I might even help pull pastor Hagee in, though he might capsize or sink the raft.His Holyness the dalai lama would always be welcome. I've met him three times, and what people miss is his gentle warning many westerners will have trouble with buddhism because of the lack of focus on a supreme diety, and can find happiness in our own religions. The Rabbi who hands out $1 bills on the teaching of Mammonides " when two meet, a third should prosper" would make for a fascinating talk. This is the dialog we should be having, not knitpicking how many born again, infant baptised and thrice saved angels can dance on the head of a KJV bookmark on ash wednsday.

Years ago I was a very dogmatic individual. Many times as I post here on factnet, it may appear that not a thing has changed. However, I am more open these days. I am not open to accepting other religions over Christianity, rather, I am more open to others as opposed to being sectarian.

Your post is great! Thank you.

[orthodox]

I spent 3 months in a Soto Zen monastery as a buddhist student. I was then an anglican and the Roshi had no problem with my faith. I have been known to attend temple services with my jewish aunt or friends. When I was a little boy I attended a reservation kinderegarden class, my being registered with another tribe and qualifying. I went into the Kiva and received a little religosity there too.

It's not so much a requirement to 'put another religion over christianity' but to understand some have interesting historical context and give greater appreciation and insites to our faith.
There are evil, earthly cults to be sure and anything can be twisted by Old Scratch to deceive us, not just other belief systems.

[truth_child]

i dont beleive in popes or any one having total authority over the church besides the pastor
i beleive that we should not even listen to the pastor if he is not preaching right or living right as he should

[jargon631]

I'll be 55 next month, hold a M.A. in archaeology with a minor in comparative religion and served 6 years in the military including combat. I can read the NT in the original greek and thee catholic version in Latin.
So I am no pup, or whatever burley, crossdressing canadian Monty Python lumberjacks call anyone who doesn't back down eh?
And I speak turtle, though it's slow going sometimes as that ancient species is prone to be.


good on yer...what were your m.o.s's?...thanks for serving!...fd

[jargon631]

I just noticed you'r a declared Jehovah's Witness. Sorry, I cannot have a cogent conversation with anyone who bought into a charleton's cult with a documented history of fruadulant business activities and 'miracle wheat.'
Your 'bible' is a bastardised rewrite by an idiot precurser of Jim Jones, Tony Alamo and their ilk.
You are anything but a member of the wide body of world christianity. You are a cult along with the Mormons stealing from another religion.
It's apples and oranges, and your apple is rotten.


more like apples and bowling balls...lol...fd

[praetorian]

I'll be 55 next month, hold a M.A. in archaeology with a minor in comparative religion and served 6 years in the military including combat. I can read the NT in the original greek and thee catholic version in Latin.
So I am no pup, or whatever burley, crossdressing canadian Monty Python lumberjacks call anyone who doesn't back down eh?
And I speak turtle, though it's slow going sometimes as that ancient species is prone to be.


Dear Orthodox:

For such an educated and mature individual, you were extremely easy to maneuver and secure information from!

I will not respond to regarding education, because no matter what I express, is irrelevant as the internet and this board allows for easy fakes. I will say, that your information is taken prima-facia that we are about the same age and both education, with the exception of different disciplines.

If you can read, Koine Greek (and Latin), you are special though not alone, however, you are no scholar! However, you are probably up to date with what modern scholars express about Bible Translations, and may also be familiar with the recent work of Professor, Jason David Beduhn, author of textbook entitled, “Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament.” If not, may I respectfully suggest you secure a copy and provide me with your thoughts, as one of the points he makes is that one would not use a text book in any discipline that is 200 years old and also, that unlike 200 years or more ago, there are thousands of extant manuscripts available today (even free online) that were not available then, not only of the Bible, of many classical works of the Bible languages, that serve to provide incontrovertible proof of how things are to be translated today, and the results of current thinking may surprise you, when compared to the older and outdated ones!

As to Latin, perhaps you will be able to appreciate the phrase, uni falti, tuti falti, which when it comes to false Bible teachings, has greater impact!

TonyP

[turtle]

You do miss the point, please let us not exchage emails any further, K!

I don't speak Turtle and do not want to know how!

That is fine with me, but if you change your mind the door is always open.

[turtle]

I'll be 55 next month, hold a M.A. in archaeology with a minor in comparative religion and served 6 years in the military including combat. I can read the NT in the original greek and thee catholic version in Latin.
So I am no pup, or whatever burley, crossdressing canadian Monty Python lumberjacks call anyone who doesn't back down eh?
And I speak turtle, though it's slow going sometimes as that ancient species is prone to be.

Othodox, nice to meet you. So you slow like me. Hmm, I think I rather be slow then so fast I miss the one gate to Heaven. Jesus is the way.

[praetorian]

Othodox, nice to meet you. So you slow like me. Hmm, I think I rather be slow then so fast I miss the one gate to Heaven. Jesus is the way.

Turtle:

After comments made here, and a review of my posts, I do in fact owe you an apology for my mannerism.

Sadly, I sometimes fall victim to my own failure of tending to respond to persons in kind, and at times, this causes me to often misjudge a circumstance.

Please accept my apologies again!

In the end, I have tried to show our differences of opinion, in contrast to what the Bible really teaches, and expresses!

Sincerely,

TonyP

P.S. Thanks B... for pointing this out in your elegant manner!

[turtle]

Turtle:

After comments made here, and a review of my posts, I do in fact owe you an apology for my mannerism.

Sadly, I sometimes fall victim to my own failure of tending to respond to persons in kind, and at times, this causes me to often misjudge a circumstance.

Please accept my apologies again!

In the end, I have tried to show our differences of opinion, in contrast to what the Bible really teaches, and expresses!

Sincerely,

TonyP

P.S. Thanks B... for pointing this out in your elegant manner!

Tony you do not owe an apology, you state based on what you know and been taught. I understand that. Our groups have been taught to hate each other. I know we do not agree. So I will be kind and avoid the threads you start, but at anytime you wish to ask my opinion I be glad to answer, I hope you will do like wise. Ignorance of each others beliefs solves nothing.

[praetorian]

Tony you do not owe an apology, you state based on what you know and been taught. I understand that. Our groups have been taught to hate each other. I know we do not agree. So I will be kind and avoid the threads you start, but at anytime you wish to ask my opinion I be glad to answer, I hope you will do like wise. Ignorance of each others beliefs solves nothing.

Turtle, thank you for your kind words. I will be more than happy to engage with you in an exchange of posts at any time, and please accept my apology for not making that clear in my previous post.

I have a severe weakness for religious lies and falsehoods, and use only the Bible to let me know which is which.

I always will welcome your comments anytime and yes the apologies are necessary as my behavior was indeed wrong!

TonyP

[turtle]

Turtle, thank you for your kind words. I will be more than happy to engage with you in an exchange of posts at any time, and please accept my apology for not making that clear in my previous post.

I have a severe weakness for religious lies and falsehoods, and use only the Bible to let me know which is which.

I always will welcome your comments anytime and yes the apologies are necessary as my behavior was indeed wrong!

TonyP

Then feel they are accept. And if I have wronged you in anyway forgive me also.

[orthodox]

I've lost count of people who found me easy to 'manuever and get information from.'
They have this tedious tendency to manuever us into dark alleys and then notice I'm between them and the exit.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Turtle, thank you for your kind words. I will be more than happy to engage with you in an exchange of posts at any time, and please accept my apology for not making that clear in my previous post.

I have a severe weakness for religious lies and falsehoods, and use only the Bible to let me know which is which.

I always will welcome your comments anytime and yes the apologies are necessary as my behavior was indeed wrong!

TonyP

A truer statement I have never read from a poster on factnet.

[truth_child]

praetorian... you and i dont agree on alot of things but i will say THE JESUS i serve is always willing to receive any who will come to HIM

[praetorian]

Then feel they are accept. And if I have wronged you in anyway forgive me also.

Thank you for your most kind and gracious post.

TonyP

[praetorian]

A truer statement I have never read from a poster on factnet.

Thank you.

TonyP

[praetorian]

praetorian... you and i dont agree on alot of things but i will say THE JESUS i serve is always willing to receive any who will come to HIM


Dear TC:

Thank you for your post and please know that I do indeed live my life, in fact have devoted my life, to the best of my ability, to preaching the Good News, in service of my Lord and Master, Jesus Christ!

TonyP

[praetorian]

I've lost count of people who found me easy to 'manuever and get information from.'
They have this tedious tendency to manuever us into dark alleys and then notice I'm between them and the exit.

Orthodox:

That is a poor come back from person that so easily chose to step in it!

It was not tedious at all, but quick, that is the silly part!

As to being “between” and the “exit”, this is indeed an exit though not between, because unlike those with whom I have had exchanges here, you are one that does not accept the Bible as the sole authority and word of God, and so I further understand why it is so easy for you to accept just about anything that makes you “feel” good, as standards, by a Holy Father, Supreme being is NOT for you and I get that!

TonyP

[truth_child]

good pretorim that you have dedicated your lif e to serving THE LORD

[turtle]

good pretorim that you have dedicated your lif e to serving THE LORD

You know truth child jehovah witness as me don't you? Are you a jehovah witness in the denominational since?

[truth_child]

no im not jehovahs wittness and never will be and you turtle should know that
maybe its best if i quit posting since so many cant or act as if they dont understand plain english

[turtle]

no im not jehovahs wittness and never will be and you turtle should know that
maybe its best if i quit posting since so many cant or act as if they dont understand plain english

TC didn'tyou know praetor was a J.W.

Okay whatever.

[orthodox]

Praetorian, exactly which sect do you belong to? Since you bawswe truth on Sola scriptura, I just like to know which Reader's Digest abridged version with pop out manger scenes you're using.

[oneway]

maybe its best if i quit posting since so many cant or act as if they dont understand plain english



But arron, if you quit posting you'll never hit that 3000 posts mark that you are so terribly close to. And just think, when you hit 3000 posts, you'll be well on your way to 4000, even 5000...maybe even 10,000 posts. You'll be the king of posters. But beware, TATM and turtle are right on your heels. If you don't be careful, they just may surpass your number of posts, afterall it's not the quality of the posts that count anyway, it's the quanity that counts, right?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

But arron, if you quit posting you'll never hit that 3000 posts mark that you are so terribly close to. And just think, when you hit 3000 posts, you'll be well on your way to 4000, even 5000...maybe even 10,000 posts. You'll be the king of posters. But beware, TATM and turtle are right on your heels. If you don't be careful, they just may surpass your number of posts, afterall it's not the quality of the posts that count anyway, it's the quanity that counts, right?

AH! YE of little faith. Rev. Ms. Turtle, truthchild, Mr. Arron, and Ms. Grace2u are, in all probability one and the same. Look closely at his/her post. Look carefully at English, sentence onstruction, punctuation, thought process . . . all are wery simular. You will also notice when one shows up the other fades.

[Night_Light]

all are wery simular. TATM


That was cute wery, wery cute:)

[oneway]

AH! YE of little faith. Rev. Ms. Turtle, truthchild, Mr. Arron, and Ms. Grace2u are, in all probability one and the same. Look closely at his/her post. Look carefully at English, sentence onstruction, punctuation, thought process . . . all are wery simular. You will also notice when one shows up the other fades.



TATM, you know the biggest problem I see with that? I honestly don't think arron has the capacity nor knowhow to pull something like that off. arron is always misunderstanding the simplest of things. Notice what he's complaining about here...that no one can understand plain English. He's reaping what he is sowing. This is why I think he is a hypocrite, because the very things that he complains that people are doing to him, this is what he is doing to others. He is simply reaping what he is sowing. I can't imagine he could pull off multiple personalities thru the uses of different usernames. I simply believe that arron is arron, and turtle is turtle. I believe these to be 2 seperate individuals. If you really pay attention to both of these posters, it's obvious that arron utterly hates and despises you, yet the same can't be said about turtle. I don't believe she hates nor despises anyone, not even those that disagree with her. Of course arron will claim that he doesn't hate nor despise anyone. His posts reveal otherwise.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM, you know the biggest problem I see with that? I honestly don't think arron has the capacity nor knowhow to pull something like that off. arron is always misunderstanding the simplest of things. Notice what he's complaining about here...that no one can understand plain English. He's reaping what he is sowing. This is why I think he is a hypocrite, because the very things that he complains that people are doing to him, this is what he is doing to others. He is simply reaping what he is sowing. I can't imagine he could pull off multiple personalities thru the uses of different usernames. I simply believe that arron is arron, and turtle is turtle. I believe these to be 2 seperate individuals. If you really pay attention to both of these posters, it's obvious that arron utterly hates and despises you, yet the same can't be said about turtle. I don't believe she hates nor despises anyone, not even those that disagree with her. Of course arron will claim that he doesn't hate nor despise anyone. His posts reveal otherwise.

Have you ever known a dissociative identity disorder sufferer?

[Night_Light]

http://www.depressionet.com.au/related-conditions/dissociative-identity-disorder-did-2.html

[turtle]

Shoot I have a hard enough time being one person. Actually I have never meet arron, grace2u or the other. And whoever said you doubt if I hate anyone. Well I do from time to time do get angry behind the screen, but that is human nature. I try my best to be peaceful, and only through Christ do I feel that even possible at times.

[oneway]

And whoever
said


Hmmm....maybe TATM's on to something here afterall, lol. This is pretty much how arron talks from time to time. I'm certain I've heard him speak in this same manner. I had no idea arron could be so clever, in order to even pull this off, assuming it's even true. I suspect it's not true, but you never know...I've been wrong before.

[turtle]

Hmmm....maybe TATM's on to something here afterall, lol. This is pretty much how arron talks from time to time. I'm certain I've heard him speak in this same manner. I had no idea arron could be so clever, in order to even pull this off, assuming it's even true. I suspect it's not true, but you never know...I've been wrong before.

Yep wrong, but who knows maybe arron has an answer, yet he says he be gone awhile. I think you really should give God create for the work he does and not man. For I think he put several people in place, I am still trying to figure how they all landed up here??

[Night_Light]

I have defended TC/arron on a number of occasions here..If he is not who he says that he is..I will be very saddened:(.. this all just speculation anyway. R

[turtle]

I have defended TC/arron on a number of occasions here..If he is not who he says that he is..I will be very saddened:(.. this all just speculation anyway. R

Arron is not me, but he might be a turtle in another since, but not the one that carries the name turtle. Okay.

[truth_child]

i am truth_child only i am not turtle period

[oneway]

I have defended TC/arron on a number of occasions here..If he is not who he says that he is..I will be very saddened:(.. this all just speculation anyway. R



night_light, I know you and arron go way back, and I can tell you're quite fond of him. The truth is, I'm quite fond of him too, yet I don't feel sympathetical to how he gets treated sometimes. Mainly because he treats others that he doesn't agree with, in the same manner. He simply doesn't follow the golden rule of treat others as you want to be treated. So he shouldn't expect to be treated with respect by others, even tho they disagree with him, when many times he doesn't respect others that he disagrees with. It would be entirely different if arron wasn't also slinging mud himself. If that were the case, I would definately be sympathetic to how he was being treated. It all comes back to reaping what you're sowing. arron is proof that one really does reap what they sow. And this is how I discern arron's treatment here. I don't plan on making any excuses for him. He's grown, and if he can't see why he is in this predictament, then there's not much any of us can do to help him. But to feel sorry for him and make excuses for him, that just doesn't work for me. That isn't helping him, that only causes him to continue doing the things that he does.

[turtle]

night_light, I know you and arron go way back, and I can tell you're quite fond of him. The truth is, I'm quite fond of him too, yet I don't feel sympathetical to how he gets treated sometimes. Mainly because he treats others that he doesn't agree with, in the same manner. He simply doesn't follow the golden rule of treat others as you want to be treated. So he shouldn't expect to be treated with respect by others, even tho they disagree with him, when many times he doesn't respect others that he disagrees with. It would be entirely different if arron wasn't also slinging mud himself. If that were the case, I would definately be sympathetic to how he was being treated. It all comes back to reaping what you're sowing. arron is proof that one really does reap what they sow. And this is how I discern arron's treatment here. I don't plan on making any excuses for him. He's grown, and if he can't see why he is in this predictament, then there's not much any of us can do to help him. But to feel sorry for him and make excuses for him, that just doesn't work for me. That isn't helping him, that only causes him to continue doing the things that he does.

Who made you his daddy? I am sorry I mean that in jest. The fact is this, discussing this person is right either. But sometimes we need to get things off their chest, at least he can read what is written. Or maybe he would rather not, because it is offensive. Of course in the business world you got to take your knocks, but what about in the church world?

[truth_child]

one way i am sorry that you feel that way. one how am i supposed to act when people tell me that i am wrong in my beleifs ? yet when i tell them the same thing about theirs i am the one who is always wrong/ i want post any more

[turtle]

one way i am sorry that you feel that way. one how am i supposed to act when people tell me that i am wrong in my beleifs ? yet when i tell them the same thing about theirs i am the one who is always wrong/ i want post any more

Arron, people will oppose us that is normal. That is Bible. Expect people to disagree with you. Need scripture I will hunt some.

[oneway]

Who made you his daddy? I am sorry I mean that in jest. The fact is this, discussing this person is right either. But sometimes we need to get things off their chest, at least he can read what is written. Or maybe he would rather not, because it is offensive. Of course in the business world you got to take your knocks, but what about in the church world?



How can one not discuss him? He's the one that makes an issue of how he is being treated, how TATM can't be a Christian since he hates him. He does the exact same things to others. I don't feel sorry for him. Also, I wasn't talking behind his back. I could have PMd NL what I wrote, but I didn't. The way I see things, if a parent had several children, and the older one was being mean to the younger ones all the time, and if and when this older child went to school, and some of the older kids were being mean to him, don't expect me to feel sorry for him.

[turtle]

How can one not discuss him? He's the one that makes an issue of how he is being treated, how TATM can't be a Christian since he hates him. He does the exact same things to others. I don't feel sorry for him. Also, I wasn't talking behind his back. I could have PMd NL what I wrote, but I didn't. The way I see things, if a parent had several children, and the older one was being mean to the younger ones all the time, and if and when this older child went to school, and some of the older kids were being mean to him, don't expect me to feel sorry for him.

Oh you think just reward. So you think eye for eye. Well if that is the case I would of stabbed a few in the eye months ago. I guess turning the other cheek is often hard to do. But what if you are smacked twice then what?

[oneway]

one way i am sorry that you feel that way. one how am i supposed to act when people tell me that i am wrong in my beleifs ? yet when i tell them the same thing about theirs i am the one who is always wrong/ i want post any more



arron, the truth is, and I have to admit it, since I dearly care for you. It's called tough love. Sometimes being blunt and straight to the point is the only way to get someone's attention.

Seriously arron, why does it matter what anyone thinks of your beliefs? You know in your heart that you're a Christian. That's all that matters. When you make it to heaven, there will be no denominations. There won't be Pentecostals in this section, Baptists in that section, etc. So why make it this way while we're yet alive? If you want to be Pentecostal, then be Pentecostal, but you have to allow others to be what they choose. And just as you believe you are right, so do others belive that they are right. We need to get past all of this, and just love and pray for one another, no matter how much different some of our beliefs are. arron, I truly love you, and I mean that. I don't want to see you quit posting, I just want to see you own up to what you post sometimes.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM, you know the biggest problem I see with that? I honestly don't think arron has the capacity nor knowhow to pull something like that off.

I know some oon this board who post under multiple names and do not have the capacity to do so.

[praetorian]

Praetorian, exactly which sect do you belong to? Since you bawswe truth on Sola scriptura, I just like to know which Reader's Digest abridged version with pop out manger scenes you're using.

Dear Orthodox:

Not that it will make a difference with you, but I have in my personal library, about 30 different Bibles, mostly translations over the versions. Separate to this, I like using online Bibles such as those find on www.biblegateway.com

Some of my personal favorites that I use often are the New World Translation with References, the NASB, The Jerusalem Bible and The New Catholic and Protestant (two separate Bibles) Illustrated Bibles-The Way.

Separate to this I use quite extensively, “The Interlinear Bible Hebrew Greek English” by Jay P. Green, as well as several Greek Interlinear’s like Marshall’s etc. I often use the Briggs Driver Lexicon for Hebrew (Aramaic) definitions and the Thayer’s Lexicon for the Greek, I like Liddell as well for Greek, however both Briggs Driver and Thayer’s use the Strong’s concordance number system for the words, which makes research a littler easier to perform.

I hope this addresses your post.

TonyP

[oneway]

I know some oon this board who post under multiple names and do not have the capacity to do so.



One reason that I might think someone does this is to make it appear than someone is agreeing with them. I'm certain this is not the only reason. But in the case of arron and turtle, they don't always agree with one another. Of course one can blame that on DID. Out of curiosity, how long have you suspected arron of this? Or should I ask, how long have you suspected turtle of this? Which one's the real deal? turtle or arron? Is arron creating an alter personality known as turtle, or is turtle creating an alter personality known as arron? I still fail to see it tho. These people seem to be who they say they are...turtle and arron..two uniquely different individuals.

[turtle]

One reason that I might think someone does this is to make it appear than someone is agreeing with them. I'm certain this is not the only reason. But in the case of arron and turtle, they don't always agree with one another. Of course one can blame that on DID. Out of curiosity, how long have you suspected arron of this? Or should I ask, how long have you suspected turtle of this? Which one's the real deal? turtle or arron? Is arron creating an alter personality known as turtle, or is turtle creating an alter personality known as arron? I still fail to see it tho. These people seem to be who they say they are...turtle and arron..two uniquely different individuals.

Maybe arron was mad originally, and maybe turtle found an outlet for her anger and arron never did.

[oneway]

Oh you think just reward. So you think eye for eye. Well if that is the case I would of stabbed a few in the eye months ago. I guess turning the other cheek is often hard to do. But what if you are smacked twice then what?



turtle, obviously you still miss the point. This has nothing to do with an eye for an eye. Actually it might in arron's case. He seems to be living by this principle...if he hates me, then I hate him, if he despises me, then I despise him right back. Where is turning the other cheek in that?
I'm not sitting here in judgment of arron. I'm simply expressing what I see as happening and why it is happening. I know better than judge others, because I am far from being perfect. I have so many things wrong in my life, that it would literally fill a book just to list them all. IOW, I have plenty of experience as to why we might do or not do the things we do sometimes.