the trinity

[praetorian]

I have no idea what a quote, unquote "mainline" Christian is. So perhaps you are right about oneness pentecostalism. On the other hand, I know of no Christian who sees them as anything but cultic. So, perhaps, that is what you mean by quote, unquote "mainline" Christian. Either way, your witnesses remain impreached and worthless.

TATM:

I was talking about the link itself when searching it. However it does not matter as you should be to highlight the link here below and above and go the page for viewing.

http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE, that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[praetorian]

Turtle:

Yours posts 747, 748 and 750, have been ALL asked and answered within the pages of this thread ad nauseam, not to mention the innumerable times via FACTNET exchange mailings! You simply have a problem connecting thoughts and making sense, and all you do is waste time!!!!!

As to what I mean about “Main Stream Christians” why don’t you go to the following webpage and read it for yourself in order to understand what is meant and what I mean by “Main Stream Christians”, therefore highlight it below:

http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

With that said, note, that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

If you continue to post to me, I will continue to repeat this as you or anyone else cannot answer this, without again, interpretation and implication as the Scriptures (meaning THE BIBLE) explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically express and distinguish between The Almighty God YHWH, and his Son Jesus Christ as clearly as you and TC and TATM not being the same exact person!!!!

TP

[fatherofaking]

P,

It amazes me the lengths that people will go to to defend their beleifs.

When i see the road is wet i can safely say that it rained in that area sometime recently, it is an inference based on common sense.
Jesus did equate himself with God, the Holy spirit is said to be sent from God and we know of course that God is spoken of as the Father, so what is the problem exactly?

Are you saying that since it isn't actually raining despite the fact that the road is wet, that it did not rain?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

P,

It amazes me the lengths that people will go to to defend their beleifs.

When i see the road is wet i can safely say that it rained in that area sometime recently, it is an inference based on common sense.
Jesus did equate himself with God, the Holy spirit is said to be sent from God and we know of course that God is spoken of as the Father, so what is the problem exactly?

Are you saying that since it isn't actually raining despite the fact that the road is wet, that it did not rain?

Actually, he is referring to the vision of his religion's founder. In 1820, Alexander Campbell was booted from a Baptist church for preaching damnable heresies. Campbell founded the Church of Christ in 1825 based on a vision. He claimed to be the saviour of modern man. From his "Gospel Restoration Revival" we have several visions and several new religions. Joseph Smith founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. After his death, Brigham Young declared Jesus Christ the illegimate byproduct of a polygamous relationship between Adam God and Mary. Ellen White founded the Adventist movement after receiving an end of the world vision. When that didn't work, she changed her vision, declaring Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. Charles Taze Russell founded the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (Mr. Tonyp's religion) based on an end of the world vision. After several failures to predict the end of the world, Russell died. His successor changed the vision to 144,000 witnesses. When that vision failed, they changed the counting method.

All of these false religions hold a false dogma surrounding the Godhead in order to make their prophets equal to Jesus Christ. We can add the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism to the mix as they too hold to a false Godhead. Rev. Ms. Turtle has offered the idea that God (the Father) is Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ is God in the gospels and the Holy Spirit is God today. Obviously that is a wery brief view of the problem. But it will help bring you to speed on the discussion.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

For those who want to know is a oneness pentecostalism website. Oneness pentecostalism is listed on every index as a cult.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/hemphill-doctrine.html

According to witnesses, he claims he received a revelation in 1986 that Jesus was not God, but was as the Son of God, a special created human being. According to those who have read his book "To God Be The Glory", Hemphill claims Jesus was born of the virgin Mary from a special new creative act of God. God put a new seed in Mary that was not defiled with the sin of the Adamic race and was thereby able to produce sinless blood in Jesus. According to the doctrine as we now know it, Hemphill joins the ranks of the Jews who denied the deity of Jesus. He also joins the ranks of the Muslims who deny the deity of Jesus. In our investigation into those who claim Jesus was only a man and not God, we discoverered some other major groups who believe the same doctrine Joel Hemphill is publishing. These other groups are: Ebionites, Freemasonry, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Iglesia ni Cristo (Philippines).

[fatherofaking]

Actually, he is referring to the vision of his religion's founder. In 1820, Alexander Campbell was booted from a Baptist church for preaching damnable heresies. Campbell founded the Church of Christ in 1825 based on a vision. He claimed to be the saviour of modern man. From his "Gospel Restoration Revival" we have several visions and several new religions. Joseph Smith founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. After his death, Brigham Young declared Jesus Christ the illegimate byproduct of a polygamous relationship between Adam God and Mary. Ellen White founded the Adventist movement after receiving an end of the world vision. When that didn't work, she changed her vision, declaring Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. Charles Taze Russell founded the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (Mr. Tonyp's religion) based on an end of the world vision. After several failures to predict the end of the world, Russell died. His successor changed the vision to 144,000 witnesses. When that vision failed, they changed the counting method.

All of these false religions hold a false dogma surrounding the Godhead in order to make their prophets equal to Jesus Christ. We can add the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism to the mix as they too hold to a false Godhead. Rev. Ms. Turtle has offered the idea that God (the Father) is Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ is God in the gospels and the Holy Spirit is God today. Obviously that is a wery brief view of the problem. But it will help bring you to speed on the discussion.



Thanks for the review of church history.
I do not think i really have an interest in arguing whether or not the concept of the Trinity is sound doctrine.
Doctrine has become nothing more than opinion in Christendom.
The message of the Bible has been so twisted that it is no longer recognizable.
It is nearly impossible to have a productive conversation about it any more.

The concept of the Trinity is just that, a concept.
It is however an accurate representation of reality from a geometric, scientific and mathematical perspective.
It is a good tool for teaching abstract ideas.

The number three is very important in the Bible.
If we understand the concept of the Trinity properly we can learn a great deal more than some churches doctrine.

[praetorian]

ATAM-

Personally what I mean by mainline christian would be all protestants and catholics and some pentecostal/charismatic groups fit into this category but not all. What Tony means by it who knows.

Turtle:

You had made an arrangement with me, at your initiation to not exchange posts with me, and I agreed as you NEVER make any sense! I would really appreciate your sticking to your Christian Word and NOT LIE by going back on your own arrangements!!!

In reply, nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking FROM THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” AGAIN FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply your beliefs because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

THIS IS A FACT AS words like “GODHEAD” appear in Latin and in the KJV but NOT IN HEBREW OR GREEK TEXTS, that is why NO ALL BIBLES use this man made up word, and are from DOGMA, CREEDS AND THEOLOGY!!!!! Jesus was NOT "CREATED" IN MARY'S WOMB, THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE THAT but was BORN!!!!!!! This too is dogma, teachings of humans!!!! This Egg analogy is YOURS AND OTHERS, that ignores, that all parts of the EGG ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL!!!!!!

Your teachings are human BASED they are not explicity stated in the Bible and also, nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking FROM THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” AGAIN FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply your beliefs because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

NO NEED TO REPLY!!! GO AWAY!!!!

[praetorian]

Amazing how easy even a child can impeach your witnesses. Yet, you cannot see beyond your religion. You are right. You can not name a single Christian that agrees with your religion's dogma and with good reason, I might add.

(http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html),

Oneness pentecostalism is not quote, unquote "mainline" (whatever that is) Christianinty. Even the pentecostals on this board have labeled them as cultic.

POINT OF INTEREST:

The conclusion of the matter, between us, everything as discussed above within this string/thread is; The Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) when Jesus, the and his Apostles, disciples were on the earth early into the First Century.

The New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) in the First Century by the Apostles, and people known by and to the Apostles and were “catalogued” by many, (well before Jerome completed his work) which came to be writings we know today as The Bible!

In conclusion, I state, that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[praetorian]

P,

It amazes me the lengths that people will go to to defend their beleifs.

When i see the road is wet i can safely say that it rained in that area sometime recently, it is an inference based on common sense.
Jesus did equate himself with God, the Holy spirit is said to be sent from God and we know of course that God is spoken of as the Father, so what is the problem exactly?

Are you saying that since it isn't actually raining despite the fact that the road is wet, that it did not rain?

Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

[praetorian]

POINT OF INTEREST:

The conclusion of the matter, between us, meaning TATM and myself, is that everything as discussed above within this string/thread is; The Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) when Jesus, the and his Apostles, disciples were on the earth early into the First Century.

The New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) in the First Century by the Apostles, and people known by and to the Apostles and were “catalogued” by many, (well before Jerome completed his work) which came to be writings we know today as The Bible!

Father of Faking, I take my position that the Bible is in fact the word of God even today, and from that standpoint, whether you agree or disagree, I can state the below with certainty; as it cannot be made from the standpoint of your position!

In conclusion, I state, that nothing anyone believes on this topic here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

In the end for you FOF, if you accept that God created the heavens and the earth, the inspiring of a written communication and keeping it whole or uncorrupted is infinitesimal by comparison! In that we do differ but know, again, that what I believe can be clearly supported in that writing, whether you accept it as God’s word or not, does not make a difference as to it’s content!!!

TP

[fatherofaking]

POINT OF INTEREST:

The conclusion of the matter, between us, meaning TATM and myself, is that everything as discussed above within this string/thread is; The Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) when Jesus, the and his Apostles, disciples were on the earth early into the First Century.

The New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) in the First Century by the Apostles, and people known by and to the Apostles and were “catalogued” by many, (well before Jerome completed his work) which came to be writings we know today as The Bible!

Father of Faking, I take my position that the Bible is in fact the word of God even today, and from that standpoint, whether you agree or disagree, I can state the below with certainty; as it cannot be made from the standpoint of your position!

In conclusion, I state, that nothing anyone believes on this topic here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

In the end for you FOF, if you accept that God created the heavens and the earth, the inspiring of a written communication and keeping it whole or uncorrupted is infinitesimal by comparison! In that we do differ but know, again, that what I believe can be clearly supported in that writing, whether you accept it as God’s word or not, does not make a difference as to it’s content!!!

TP
]


Whatever.
i have no desire to point out the obvious to a blind man or speak the truth to the deaf.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

POINT OF INTEREST:

The conclusion of the matter, between us, meaning TATM and myself, is that everything as discussed above within this string/thread is; The Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) when Jesus, the and his Apostles, disciples were on the earth early into the First Century.

The New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) in the First Century by the Apostles, and people known by and to the Apostles and were “catalogued” by many, (well before Jerome completed his work) which came to be writings we know today as The Bible!

Father of Faking, I take my position that the Bible is in fact the word of God even today, and from that standpoint, whether you agree or disagree, I can state the below with certainty; as it cannot be made from the standpoint of your position!

In conclusion, I state, that nothing anyone believes on this topic here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

In the end for you FOF, if you accept that God created the heavens and the earth, the inspiring of a written communication and keeping it whole or uncorrupted is infinitesimal by comparison! In that we do differ but know, again, that what I believe can be clearly supported in that writing, whether you accept it as God’s word or not, does not make a difference as to it’s content!!!

TP

Amazed to see your world fall apart? Not me.

[praetorian]

]


Whatever.
i have no desire to point out the obvious to a blind man or speak the truth to the deaf.

What a coincidence!

TP

P.S. You choose Hamlet and I choose Jesus Christ, not bad at all from where I sit and stand!!!!

[praetorian]

Amazed to see your world fall apart? Not me.

What in the "world" are you talking about? My "world" is doing GREAT, and better with folks like YOU out of it!!!! LOL

BOTTOM LINE:

The conclusion of the matter, between us, meaning TATM and myself, is that everything as discussed above within this string/thread is; The Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) when Jesus, the and his Apostles, disciples were on the earth early into the First Century.

The New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) inspired writings were completed, verified and utilized (and “Canonized” from God’s standpoint) in the First Century by the Apostles, and people known by and to the Apostles and were “catalogued” by many, (well before Jerome completed his work) which came to be writings we know today as The Bible!

Father of Faking, I take my position that the Bible is in fact the word of God even today, and from that standpoint, whether you agree or disagree, I can state the below with certainty; as it cannot be made from the standpoint of your position! And, if this makes me deaf and blind, (what a coincidence) from YOUR stand point, so be it, (NO LOSS AT ALL-LOL) I have chosen to believe in God's Word The Bible and you have chosen not to! Good For You!!!!

In conclusion, I state, that nothing anyone believes on this topic here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

In the end for you FOF, if you accept that God created the heavens and the earth, the inspiring of a written communication and keeping it whole or uncorrupted is infinitesimal by comparison! In that we do differ but know, again, that what I believe can be clearly supported in that writing, whether you accept it as God’s word or not, does not make a difference as to it’s content!!!

TP

[fatherofaking]

What a coincidence!

TP

P.S. You choose Hamlet and I choose Jesus Christ, not bad at all from where I sit and stand!!!!

You do not even know who Jesus Christ is.


Jn. 8

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

[praetorian]

You do not even know who Jesus Christ is.


That my dear fellow is your opinion, and you are indeed entitled to it, as I am to mine; so long as you are not deluded enough to think, that you speak FACT here, as my opinion is different than yours-FACT! Also, the same can be brashly stated by me of you and your beloved Hamlet! I believe and model myself after the Jesus Christ in the Bible not anyone else's views or writings!!!

In the end, and keeping within this "theme" of this string/thread, nothing you state or show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[fatherofaking]

That my dear fellow is your opinion, and you are indeed entitled to it, as I am to mine; so long as you are not deluded enough to think, that you speak FACT here, as my opinion is different than yours-FACT! Also, the same can be brashly stated by me of you and your beloved Hamlet! I believe and model myself after the Jesus Christ in the Bible not anyone else's views or writings!!!

In the end, and keeping within this "theme" of this string/thread, nothing you state or show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP




Jn. 8

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.




This is the claim that Jesus himself made.
You will have to argue with him not me.

thus
And God said unto
Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
and he said, Thus shalt thou
say unto the children of
Israel, I AM hath sent me
unto you.






 מ9ְ
shm·u
name-of·him
מָה
me
what ?
אֹמַר
amr
I-shall-say
! אֲלֵהֶ
al·em
to·them
:
:
אֹמֶר 3:14  וַ
u·iamr
and·he-is-saying
! הִי " אֱ
aleim
Elohim
אֶל
al
to
־
-
ה מֹ ֶ
mshe
Moses
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-shall-become
ר אֲ ֶ
ashr
who
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-am-becoming
אֹמֶר  וַ
u·iamr
and·he-is-saying
הֹ
ke

14
תאֹמַר
thamr
you-shall-say
לִבְנֵי
l·bni
to·sons-of
רָאֵל 5 יִ ְ
ishral
Israel
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-shall-become
לָחַנִי ְ
shlch·ni
he-sent·me
! אֲלֵיכֶ
ali·km
to·you(p)
:
:

[praetorian]

Jn. 8

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.




This is the claim that Jesus himself made.
You will have to argue with him not me.

thus
And God said unto
Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
and he said, Thus shalt thou
say unto the children of
Israel, I AM hath sent me
unto you.






מ9ְ
shm·u
name-of·him
מָה
me
what ?
אֹמַר
amr
I-shall-say
! אֲלֵהֶ
al·em
to·them
:
:
אֹמֶר 3:14 וַ
u·iamr
and·he-is-saying
! הִי " אֱ
aleim
Elohim
אֶל
al
to
־
-
ה מֹ ֶ
mshe
Moses
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-shall-become
ר אֲ ֶ
ashr
who
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-am-becoming
אֹמֶר וַ
u·iamr
and·he-is-saying
הֹ
ke

14
תאֹמַר
thamr
you-shall-say
לִבְנֵי
l·bni
to·sons-of
רָאֵל 5 יִ ְ
ishral
Israel
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-shall-become
לָחַנִי ְ
shlch·ni
he-sent·me
! אֲלֵיכֶ
ali·km
to·you(p)
:
:

FOF:

Your post above does not make much sense, however what I was able to discern, is completely covered within the pages of this string/thread so repeating myself here will not do any good as you only want to hear and believe what you want to hear and believe as this hubris opinion of yourself allows you to call your opinion FACT when it is NOT!

In the end, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

P.S. Do you really want me to address-repeat the replies?

[fatherofaking]

FOF:

Your post above does not make much sense, however what I was able to discern, is completely covered within the pages of this string/thread so repeating myself here will not do any good as you only want to hear and believe what you want to hear and believe as this hubris opinion of yourself allows you to call your opinion FACT when it is NOT!

In the end, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

P.S. Do you really want me to address-repeat the replies?


No i do not want you to repeat your replies.
I have no interest in doing this with you or anyone else that is not willing to have a rational discussion.

Thanks but no thanks.
I have no desire to try and defend common sense.

[praetorian]

Jn. 8

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.




This is the claim that Jesus himself made.
You will have to argue with him not me.

thus
And God said unto
Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
and he said, Thus shalt thou
say unto the children of
Israel, I AM hath sent me
unto you.






 מ9ְ
shm·u
name-of·him
מָה
me
what ?
אֹמַר
amr
I-shall-say
! אֲלֵהֶ
al·em
to·them
:
:
אֹמֶר 3:14  וַ
u·iamr
and·he-is-saying
! הִי " אֱ
aleim
Elohim
אֶל
al
to
־
-
ה מֹ ֶ
mshe
Moses
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-shall-become
ר אֲ ֶ
ashr
who
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-am-becoming
אֹמֶר  וַ
u·iamr
and·he-is-saying
הֹ
ke

14
תאֹמַר
thamr
you-shall-say
לִבְנֵי
l·bni
to·sons-of
רָאֵל 5 יִ ְ
ishral
Israel
אֶהְיֶה
aeie
I-shall-become
לָחַנִי ְ
shlch·ni
he-sent·me
! אֲלֵיכֶ
ali·km
to·you(p)
:
:

FOF:

While it won’t do any good, I do address two things you mention in your post that I could pick out. The first one I address is the statement “I AM” as used in Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.

I will be using here (so that you can follow along) www.biblegateway.com, for John 8:58, as you will note that they make available 20 Bible’s (two are NT only) in English, and note, that they all agree with the use of “I AM” in this verse but one
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:58;&version=73:)

which is the Worldwide English, New Testament Bible that reads, “58Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born. Thus the question is why this difference here, that is NOT ONLY from the JWs? Right off the bat, you will also note that some of Bibles use the words or phrase I AM in caps, others do not! This is also very telling!"

Now, what I state here is NOT opinion, and can be easily verified as accurate and truthful!!!! Most people like you tend to quote this verse as a “stand alone” verse which it is NOT, it is a reply given in the context of a conversation! Grammatically speaking (in English) the “context” of the discussion reveals what is going on here, as the Jews’ own comments, as found in nearly all Bibles agree, as stated in the previous verse, when they tell Jesus (NIV) “57You are not yet fifty years old," and you have seen Abraham!" thus, they were speaking about Jesus age if you will (as Jesus was then only about 30 plus years of age) as to his being in existence BEFORE and or AT THE TIME Abraham was in existence, meaning alive on earth! Again, this is what the context clearly reveals. In other words, simply put Jesus’ reply to them establishes that he had a “pre-human” existence that these Jews took issue with!!!

Now, that Jesus had a pre-human existence is clear, since Jesus himself spoke about his pre-human existence for example in the following scriptures: John 3:13, 6:38 and 62, 8:23, 42 and in effect says the same thing (as discussed above) in verse 58 as supported by the context.

A further, special note with regards to verse 58, while the latter part of this verse is translated as “I AM” in most (not all) Bibles, it is critical to point out the following, by way of an example, what the Greek actually states here; “Ego” (Strong’s word number 1473) for “I” or “me”, and “Eimi” (Strong’s word number 1510) for “to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.” This same exact word appears in the NT Greek 146 times, and is translated into English in the KJV 139 times, with 74 times in English as “I AM”, (no caps in Greek) as “am” 55 times, “it is I” 6 times, “be” 2 times, “I was” 1 time, and “have been” 1 time for a total of 139, with 7 other places it is found in Greek though not translated by in KJV. (You can see this for yourself both on www.scripture4all.org and also the resource I believe you are familiar with, http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/)

Therefore it is “reasonable” to conclude that this verse (58) in the Greek, should or MUST be in harmony with the other scriptures in the Bible, that not only use the “same” Greek words, like the other ones noted above in the previous paragraph, but also, must conform or be in harmony with other scriptures in the book of John, (and Bible) that specifically refer to Jesus own words, corroborating that He had a previous existence, prior to his coming to earth, which means that he “obviously” existed before Abraham was born on earth and was stating so in reply to the Jews; not that he did was identifying himself as God in the Hebrew text as though “I AM” is some how more descriptive than say Jesus or Jehovah! The context shows that Jesus was replying in Greek in the same way the KJV translates this Greek word in other places where it “chooses” not to use the “I AM.”

I have in my personal library (among many different sources, nearly all NON-JW references and sources) “The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew-Greek-English, With Strong’s Concordance Numbers Above Each Word” by “J.P. Green, Sr.” published by “Hendrickson Publishers” of Massachusetts, with permission of “The Trinitarian Bible Society of London English” (FYI: There is a free online Hebrew-Greek-Interlinear or Translinear Bible found at www.scripture4all.org a NON-JW site where you can see some of what I discuss here, like the Strong word numbers etc.) from which I quote from the PREFACE where it states, “Neither of the original languages distinguished between upper-case and lower-case letters. There, all capital letters in the English translation have been supplied,” and also, “We have also used them for pronouns that refer to Deity, and here interpretation enters”; thereby admitting to the fact that while the Hebrew makes no distinction regarding the so-called “I AM” (by not making it capital letters) as this is NOT what was or is penned by Moses or means, as Green graciously admits to his own bias and interpretation despite the fact that it is not clearly found nor supported in the Hebrew text. Research motivated by actually truly wanting to know the truth about this (and or any subject matter) will demonstrate this to be the case, as is the case with well known “controversial scriptures.”

Turning my attention again to the “I AM” in Hebrew as found at Exodus 3:14, I further reply that this word is identified as Strong’s Word number 1961 (or Hayah in Hebrew) and you can look the same up on the following NON-JW site below that has a lexicons:
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?search=1961&version=kjv&type=eng

Also, viewing this word-for-word in Hebrew helps us to further see that translating this as “I AM” is not what is actually expressed. (Again, I am using for reference, www.scripture4all.org for you to follow along):

Part of the verse reads in Hebrew-to-English as “and he is saying Elohim to Moses [Hayah-1961]-I-shall-become who [Hayah-1961]-I-am-becoming thus you shall say to the sons of Israel [Hayah-1961]-I-shall-become he sent me to you.”

It is interesting to note that while it translates this word-for-word under the Hebrew text; however when it comes to word number 1961, (Hayah) they use the American Version (AV) above it, where the AV translates: “I-shall-become”, I-am-becoming” and “I-shall-become”; as “I AM” while on the right hand side, they use the “CLV-Concordant Literal New Testament and the Concordant Version of the OT” where it literally translates it as “Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall become to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-To-Be has sent me to you.” Now finally, this same word Hayah-1961 appears many more times in the Hebrew and 75 more times in the KJV and NOT ONCE is translated as “I AM” as not only would it not make any grammatical sense, but it simply does not translate into “I AM”. You can do this research yourself with any Hebrew manuscript, though now online at www.scripture4all.org (a NON JW SITE) in order to verify and validate this for yourself!!!! You should look at one example found at Genesis 27:1, where it is used, and it is not rendered “I AM” and yet uses the phrase found in most English Bible’s when Jacob exclaims “Here I am” as this better matches the Hebrew wording itself!!!

So much for your totally incorrect view of the “I AM” in the Bible!!!!

Therefore, since we left the point of this string/thread, I end by stating that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[fatherofaking]

FOF:

While it won’t do any good, I do address two things you mention in your post that I could pick out. The first one I address is the statement “I AM” as used in Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.

I will be using here (so that you can follow along) www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com), for John 8:58, as you will note that they make available 20 Bible’s (two are NT only) in English, and note, that they all agree with the use of “I AM” in this verse but one
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:58;&version=73:)

which is the Worldwide English, New Testament Bible that reads, “58Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born. Thus the question is why this difference here, that is NOT ONLY from the JWs? Right off the bat, you will also note that some of Bibles use the words or phrase I AM in caps, others do not! This is also very telling!"

Now, what I state here is NOT opinion, and can be easily verified as accurate and truthful!!!! Most people like you tend to quote this verse as a “stand alone” verse which it is NOT, it is a reply given in the context of a conversation! Grammatically speaking (in English) the “context” of the discussion reveals what is going on here, as the Jews’ own comments, as found in nearly all Bibles agree, as stated in the previous verse, when they tell Jesus (NIV) “57You are not yet fifty years old," and you have seen Abraham!" thus, they were speaking about Jesus age if you will (as Jesus was then only about 30 plus years of age) as to his being in existence BEFORE and or AT THE TIME Abraham was in existence, meaning alive on earth! Again, this is what the context clearly reveals. In other words, simply put Jesus’ reply to them establishes that he had a “pre-human” existence that these Jews took issue with!!!

Now, that Jesus had a pre-human existence is clear, since Jesus himself spoke about his pre-human existence for example in the following scriptures: John 3:13, 6:38 and 62, 8:23, 42 and in effect says the same thing (as discussed above) in verse 58 as supported by the context.

A further, special note with regards to verse 58, while the latter part of this verse is translated as “I AM” in most (not all) Bibles, it is critical to point out the following, by way of an example, what the Greek actually states here; “Ego” (Strong’s word number 1473) for “I” or “me”, and “Eimi” (Strong’s word number 1510) for “to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.” This same exact word appears in the NT Greek 146 times, and is translated into English in the KJV 139 times, with 74 times in English as “I AM”, (no caps in Greek) as “am” 55 times, “it is I” 6 times, “be” 2 times, “I was” 1 time, and “have been” 1 time for a total of 139, with 7 other places it is found in Greek though not translated by in KJV. (You can see this for yourself both on www.scripture4all.org (http://www.scripture4all.org) and also the resource I believe you are familiar with, http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/)

Therefore it is “reasonable” to conclude that this verse (58) in the Greek, should or MUST be in harmony with the other scriptures in the Bible, that not only use the “same” Greek words, like the other ones noted above in the previous paragraph, but also, must conform or be in harmony with other scriptures in the book of John, (and Bible) that specifically refer to Jesus own words, corroborating that He had a previous existence, prior to his coming to earth, which means that he “obviously” existed before Abraham was born on earth and was stating so in reply to the Jews; not that he did was identifying himself as God in the Hebrew text as though “I AM” is some how more descriptive than say Jesus or Jehovah! The context shows that Jesus was replying in Greek in the same way the KJV translates this Greek word in other places where it “chooses” not to use the “I AM.”

I have in my personal library (among many different sources, nearly all NON-JW references and sources) “The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew-Greek-English, With Strong’s Concordance Numbers Above Each Word” by “J.P. Green, Sr.” published by “Hendrickson Publishers” of Massachusetts, with permission of “The Trinitarian Bible Society of London English” (FYI: There is a free online Hebrew-Greek-Interlinear or Translinear Bible found at www.scripture4all.org (http://www.scripture4all.org) a NON-JW site where you can see some of what I discuss here, like the Strong word numbers etc.) from which I quote from the PREFACE where it states, “Neither of the original languages distinguished between upper-case and lower-case letters. There, all capital letters in the English translation have been supplied,” and also, “We have also used them for pronouns that refer to Deity, and here interpretation enters”; thereby admitting to the fact that while the Hebrew makes no distinction regarding the so-called “I AM” (by not making it capital letters) as this is NOT what was or is penned by Moses or means, as Green graciously admits to his own bias and interpretation despite the fact that it is not clearly found nor supported in the Hebrew text. Research motivated by actually truly wanting to know the truth about this (and or any subject matter) will demonstrate this to be the case, as is the case with well known “controversial scriptures.”

Turning my attention again to the “I AM” in Hebrew as found at Exodus 3:14, I further reply that this word is identified as Strong’s Word number 1961 (or Hayah in Hebrew) and you can look the same up on the following NON-JW site below that has a lexicons:
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?search=1961&version=kjv&type=eng

Also, viewing this word-for-word in Hebrew helps us to further see that translating this as “I AM” is not what is actually expressed. (Again, I am using for reference, www.scripture4all.org (http://www.scripture4all.org) for you to follow along):

Part of the verse reads in Hebrew-to-English as “and he is saying Elohim to Moses [Hayah-1961]-I-shall-become who [Hayah-1961]-I-am-becoming thus you shall say to the sons of Israel [Hayah-1961]-I-shall-become he sent me to you.”

It is interesting to note that while it translates this word-for-word under the Hebrew text; however when it comes to word number 1961, (Hayah) they use the American Version (AV) above it, where the AV translates: “I-shall-become”, I-am-becoming” and “I-shall-become”; as “I AM” while on the right hand side, they use the “CLV-Concordant Literal New Testament and the Concordant Version of the OT” where it literally translates it as “Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall become to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-To-Be has sent me to you.” Now finally, this same word Hayah-1961 appears many more times in the Hebrew and 75 more times in the KJV and NOT ONCE is translated as “I AM” as not only would it not make any grammatical sense, but it simply does not translate into “I AM”. You can do this research yourself with any Hebrew manuscript, though now online at www.scripture4all.org (http://www.scripture4all.org) (a NON JW SITE) in order to verify and validate this for yourself!!!! You should look at one example found at Genesis 27:1, where it is used, and it is not rendered “I AM” and yet uses the phrase found in most English Bible’s when Jacob exclaims “Here I am” as this better matches the Hebrew wording itself!!!

So much for your totally incorrect view of the “I AM” in the Bible!!!!

Therefore, since we left the point of this string/thread, I end by stating that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP
So why did they try and stone him?
If he was not guilty of blasphemy by equating himself with God then why did they pick up stones?

I could come up with several arguments for and against the use of I Am in the Bible.
What is the sense in all of this?
Study some science, philosophy and mathematics then you will see who your God really is.
Just arguing Bible without backing it up with concrete facts is a waste of time.
I know you probably think it is not, and that is where this conversation breaks down.
You seem to know little other than the opinions of men.
I guess i made a mistake getting into this with you.
No rationality here, time to move on.

[praetorian]

So why did they try and stone him?
If he was not guilty of blasphemy by equating himself with God then why did they pick up stones?

I could come up with several arguments for and against the use of I Am in the Bible.
What is the sense in all of this?
Study some science, philosophy and mathematics then you will see who your God really is.
Just arguing Bible without backing it up with concrete facts is a waste of time.
I know you probably think it is not, and that is where this conversation breaks down.
You seem to know little other than the opinions of men.
I guess i made a mistake getting into this with you.
No rationality here, time to move on.
FOF:

There is no need to wonder about this as the Bible account tells us “why” they tried to stone him, because Jesus stated plainly that he “existed” before Abraham was born, meaning that Jesus had a pre-human existence which was blasphemy to them! Perhaps a look at another account in John, where the Jews also took up stones to kill Jesus may clarify this even further, as it is more in line with your question and comment about “blasphemy by equating himself with God.” You are apparently referring to the account surrounding John 10:33.

Regarding this account Jesus himself explains what he means and note, it is hard to imagine a better opportunity to explain himself as being a Part of a Trinity etc, by simply stating, something like, “I am THE GOD OF ABRAHAM etc, but I split myself, or made myself separate, to come down to the earth to speak with you as the Messiah, and save you, but KNOW, that when I die, I will return to being God again, or the third part of God again etc” BUT that is NOT what Jesus does, neither BEFORE or AFTER what is stated here by the Jews (or anywhere else in the Bible) about him in verse 33, and now note what Jesus masterfully does in the next few verses, from 34-37, where Jesus quotes and applies Psalms 82:6 to them (the Jewish religious leaders) as “gods” (without the article in Greek) though in the singular, it would apply to them as “god” and then masterfully explains that his, Jesus claim as “God’s Son” is actually one that is less than the one given them as “gods” by “the God and Father of Jesus Christ” as verse 35, has Jesus referring to his “God and Father” with the article in the Greek (NOTE: JESUS IS NEVER EVER REFERRED TO WITH THE ARTICLE AS “THE GOD” NOT EVEN AT John 1:1) and note how this is stated literally in the Greek as “TOWARD WHOM THE saying [word] OF-THE God” thereby distinguishing himself Jesus as the “WORD” separate from his “God and Father” who is ALWAYS referred to in the Greek text with the article!

Now, to get more in depth on this please note what John 10:33 states (NIV) “33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” and mention, that in this verse it is critical to note that the Greek article (for “The” in English, which is either “ho” or “ton” etc in Greek) is NOT used here AT ALL, and this is critical to point out, as it was the JEWS making this statement, again, they are saying this, the Jewish religious Leaders NOT JESUS, (it is a written statement of their “feelings” “views” and or “opinions”) as they were able to clearly distinguish between “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ” (whom they claimed as their God [“THE GOD” IN GREEK with the article] even though Jesus tells them, that their “THE GOD” was really “SATAN”) verses someone they “feel” is making a claim as “a God” or “as God’s Son”, as by making claim, “God’s Son” Jesus is clearly stating that he had in heaven, the same nature and or substance as his “God and Father”, meaning he was a spirit creature or being, just like a human being or creature, like you FOF is the son of a human being!!! So, the Jews clearly knew, as supported by the GREEK, that Jesus did not claim to BE “THE GOD”, with the article that they claimed to have worshipped, but instead understood what Jesus clearly meant by stating he was “God’s Son”!!! Other Bible translations make this even plainer!!!!

As to your arguments for the “I AM” you probably could, however they all fail when you take into consideration the known FACTS about this in both the Hebrew and Greek that I mention above in my post number 770 on this page NOTE I said FACTS as opposed to your “arguments” meaning opinions, Sir I provided you not with opinions but facts from Hebrew and Greek texts and lexicons that provides you with absolute and or empirical proof of FACTS!!!!

Your statement, “Study some science, philosophy and mathematics then you will see who your God really is” is wrong and arrogant as it “ASSUMES” that I never attended a University and studied the same and in this you are DEAD WRONG as I have and AN IVY LEAQUE ONE AT THAT!!!!! Also, you are placing the subject matters themselves, OVER the (MY) God and Father who CREATED science and mathematics in the first place and people, and people who gave life to philosophy!!!!!

You state, “Just arguing Bible without backing it up with concrete facts is a waste of time” and NOTE that I did not ARGUE Bible but instead showed CONCRETE FACTS in the form of Bible texts from the Hebrew and Greek and their respective lexicons, that establish CONCRETE FACTS in order to address your issues above! This just implies you did not read the post, ignore, as it clearly establishes CONCRETE FACTS and lists the references for the same!!!!! Thus you are right it is a waste of time because I believe in the Bible as the word of God today and you do not! In the end, even with your beliefs against the Bible, NO ONE can site explicitly stated scriptures to establish God is Triune or that Jesus is God!!!!!

Therefore of course the “conversation” or rather the dialogue breaks down since we are coming from two different opinions, but it is you that chose to inject yourself into this discussion about God being Triune and or that Jesus is God FROM THE BIBLE as this is how I started my posts in this string/thread to begin with!!!!!

I have indeed studied the opinions of men of many cultures and find them all to be lacking when compared to the wisdom of God!!!! And this is indeed MY OPINION!!!!!

TP

P.S. Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

[fatherofaking]

FOF:

There is no need to wonder about this as the Bible account tells us “why” they tried to stone him, because Jesus stated plainly that he “existed” before Abraham was born, meaning that Jesus had a pre-human existence which was blasphemy to them! Perhaps a look at another account in John, where the Jews also took up stones to kill Jesus may clarify this even further, as it is more in line with your question and comment about “blasphemy by equating himself with God.” You are apparently referring to the account surrounding John 10:33.

Regarding this account Jesus himself explains what he means and note, it is hard to imagine a better opportunity to explain himself as being a Part of a Trinity etc, by simply stating, something like, “I am THE GOD OF ABRAHAM etc, but I split myself, or made myself separate, to come down to the earth to speak with you as the Messiah, and save you, but KNOW, that when I die, I will return to being God again, or the third part of God again etc” BUT that is NOT what Jesus does, neither BEFORE or AFTER what is stated here by the Jews (or anywhere else in the Bible) about him in verse 33, and now note what Jesus masterfully does in the next few verses, from 34-37, where Jesus quotes and applies Psalms 82:6 to them (the Jewish religious leaders) as “gods” (without the article in Greek) though in the singular, it would apply to them as “god” and then masterfully explains that his, Jesus claim as “God’s Son” is actually one that is less than the one given them as “gods” by “the God and Father of Jesus Christ” as verse 35, has Jesus referring to his “God and Father” with the article in the Greek (NOTE: JESUS IS NEVER EVER REFERRED TO WITH THE ARTICLE AS “THE GOD” NOT EVEN AT John 1:1) and note how this is stated literally in the Greek as “TOWARD WHOM THE saying [word] OF-THE God” thereby distinguishing himself Jesus as the “WORD” separate from his “God and Father” who is ALWAYS referred to in the Greek text with the article!

Now, to get more in depth on this please note what John 10:33 states (NIV) “33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” and mention, that in this verse it is critical to note that the Greek article (for “The” in English, which is either “ho” or “ton” etc in Greek) is NOT used here AT ALL, and this is critical to point out, as it was the JEWS making this statement, again, they are saying this, the Jewish religious Leaders NOT JESUS, (it is a written statement of their “feelings” “views” and or “opinions”) as they were able to clearly distinguish between “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ” (whom they claimed as their God [“THE GOD” IN GREEK with the article] even though Jesus tells them, that their “THE GOD” was really “SATAN”) verses someone they “feel” is making a claim as “a God” or “as God’s Son”, as by making claim, “God’s Son” Jesus is clearly stating that he had in heaven, the same nature and or substance as his “God and Father”, meaning he was a spirit creature or being, just like a human being or creature, like you FOF is the son of a human being!!! So, the Jews clearly knew, as supported by the GREEK, that Jesus did not claim to BE “THE GOD”, with the article that they claimed to have worshipped, but instead understood what Jesus clearly meant by stating he was “God’s Son”!!! Other Bible translations make this even plainer!!!!

As to your arguments for the “I AM” you probably could, however they all fair when you take into consideration the known FACTS about this in both the Hebrew and Greek that I mention above in my post number 770 on this page NOTE I said FACTS as opposed to your “arguments” meaning opinions, Sir I provided you not with opinions but facts from Hebrew and Greek texts and lexicons that provides you with absolute and or empirical proof of FACTS!!!!

Your statement, “Study some science, philosophy and mathematics then you will see who your God really is” is wrong and arrogant as it “ASSUMES” that I never attended a University and studied the same and in this you are DEAD WRONG as I have and AN IVY LEAQUE ONE AT THAT!!!!! Also, you are placing the subject matters themselves, OVER the (MY) God and Father who CREATED science and mathematics in the first place and people, and people who gave life to philosophy!!!!!

You state, “Just arguing Bible without backing it up with concrete facts is a waste of time” and NOTE that I did not ARGUE Bible but instead showed CONCRETE FACTS in the form of Bible texts from the Hebrew and Greek and their respective lexicons, that establish CONCRETE FACTS in order to address your issues above! This just implies you did not read the post, ignore, as it clearly establishes CONCRETE FACTS and lists the references for the same!!!!! Thus you are right it is a waste of time because I believe in the Bible as the word of God today and you do not! In the end, even with your beliefs against the Bible, NO ONE can site explicitly stated scriptures to establish God is Triune or that Jesus is God!!!!!

Therefore of course the “conversation” or rather the dialogue breaks down since we are coming from two different opinions, but it is you that chose to inject yourself into this discussion about God being Triune and or that Jesus is God FROM THE BIBLE as this is how I started my posts in this string/thread to begin with!!!!!

I have indeed studied the opinions of men of many cultures and find them all to be lacking when compared to the wisdom of God!!!! And this is indeed MY OPINION!!!!!

TP

P.S. Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

Enjoy.
You think you know something that you do not know.
This is typical here.
You go ahead and defend your foolish opinions.
What you call concrete facts is laughable.
All you did was give opinions that agree with your own.
I am not even going to justify your opinions with an answer.

I regret injecting myself into a conversation with someone like yourself.
I should know better.
We did this before and it went the same way.
I guess i didn't really want to do this.
goodbye.

[praetorian]

Enjoy.
You think you know something that you do not know.
This is typical here.
You go ahead and defend your foolish opinions.
What you call concrete facts is laughable.
All you did was give opinions that agree with your own.
I am not even going to justify your opinions with an answer.

I regret injecting myself into a conversation with someone like yourself.
I should know better.
We did this before and it went the same way.

goodbye.

FOF:

What I do KNOW is that we do not agree!!! Being typical here or not, is NOT the issue!!! I have not needed to “defend” anything, as instead I have pointed out, quoted and referenced reputable and legitimate sources that do not need anyone to defend them, especially the Bible!!!!

We did in fact do this before and again, I addressed you so-called criticisms of the Bible and recall that when I was going to address other criticisms of yours, that you had let me know, it would not make a difference!!!!

Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

FOF:

What I do KNOW is that we do not agree!!! Being typical here or not, is NOT the issue!!! I have not needed to “defend” anything, as instead I have pointed out, quoted and referenced reputable and legitimate sources that do not need anyone to defend them, especially the Bible!!!!

We did in fact do this before and again, I addressed you so-called criticisms of the Bible and recall that when I was going to address other criticisms of yours, that you had let me know, it would not make a difference!!!!

Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

Caught in yet another open lie. You have repeatedly defended your religion's dogma using your religion's dogma. Get over it.

[praetorian]

Caught in yet another open lie. You have repeatedly defended your religion's dogma using your religion's dogma. Get over it.


TATM:

I think you have a human need to POST, it does not matter if you are posting a lie, or are not dealing with reality, so long as you POST! Statement is contradicted by my statements that you quote!!!! Perhaps it is truly a mental thing, who knows, but inaccurate it is!!!! Therefore there is nothing for me to get over, as it appears you are speaking about yourself!!!!

Now, please know that nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[dobman53]

You know something!!!

An arguement about the trinity would be the furthest thing from our minds if we could just remember one thing!!!

Jesus sit's at the right hand of God.

You can bark up the side of as many trees as you like, but that cat is not going to come down.

Look I know well about how people seem destined to see the will of their denomination come out on top. But such things as that are a fools folly. The reason's for such folly's do arrise from the demand's of most denominations. Where vertually all require absolute adhearance to their interpretations only.

Now sure enough you take the trinity for instance. Automatically the two camps scratch their opposing lines in the sand, and start in at it.

But like I said there would never have been a line scratched in the first place, If they all would have first visualized Christ seated upon his thrown at the right hand of God. Jesus is truely Gods one and only begotten son.

Dob!!

[praetorian]

You know something!!!

An arguement about the trinity would be the furthest thing from our minds if we could just remember one thing!!!

Jesus sit's at the right hand of God.

You can bark up the side of as many trees as you like, but that cat is not going to come down.

Look I know well about how people seem destined to see the will of their denomination come out on top. But such things as that are a fools folly. The reason's for such folly's do arrise from the demand's of most denominations. Where vertually all require absolute adhearance to their interpretations only.

Now sure enough you take the trinity for instance. Automatically the two camps scratch their opposing lines in the sand, and start in at it.

But like I said there would never have been a line scratched in the first place, If they all would have first visualized Christ seated upon his thrown at the right hand of God. Jesus is truely Gods one and only begotten son.

Dob!!

I agree with the above that is should be as easy as the words that state so!

And add that nothing anyone on this board, string/thread have posted, you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

[praetorian]

I am having trouble sending you a message DM!

[dobman53]

Dear Friends:

I was reading from this thread earlier today, but I didn't have enough time at that moment to send off another post.

Anyways I was reading from a page or two past, where some were making mention of how God had miraculously managed to keep the Bible totally accurate and complete in it's totallity. I also noticed what appeared to me as a first time ever event. That being the ultra rare Fact-net total agreement award.

Sorry, But I'm gonna have to rain on your festivities...

One of Satans main tools is that of falsehoods and lies. In 1610 when The English translators were putting to print the first all English Bible, they translated the text's to the best of their abilities. These abilities were all derived from their decades of service, and dedication's to the Church of England.

Should any dare think that the Church of England, and the srcibes from that organization were each and everyone guided by Gods own hand I do believe I've got the deal of a life time ment just for you. You see I have this bridge in Brooklyn I've been trying to sell, now if your interested beings it's for you and all. I'd be willing to go ahead and let it go real CHEEP!! You know just for you...

While I'm at it,, let me go ahead and drop another ton or two on your toe's. All these new English translations, well guess what God wasn't leading them around by the nose either. Their so far beyond the slant of the 1610 translations, they might have just as well stayed home for all the good it's gonna do them. Especially so after God finally gets his hands on them. About the translators that have already passed. I'm sure their all seated real close to the gulfs edge being exactly straight accross the devide from the lake of fire.

Now there are some waiting across the devide crying how much longer. Though most of these modern day translators aren't about to so much as make a single peep.

This may be a hard one to swallow but the truth is God draws near to him those whom he wishes to know the truth. It's not available to any non-believers to hold up and then never be accountable.

No truth, no freedom.

Dob!!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Dear Friends:

I was reading from this thread earlier today, but I didn't have enough time at that moment to send off another post.

Anyways I was reading from a page or two past, where some were making mention of how God had miraculously managed to keep the Bible totally accurate and complete in it's totallity. I also noticed what appeared to me as a first time ever event. That being the ultra rare Fact-net total agreement award.

Sorry, But I'm gonna have to rain on your festivities...

One of Satans main tools is that of falsehoods and lies. In 1610 when The English translators were putting to print the first all English Bible, they translated the text's to the best of their abilities. These abilities were all derived from their decades of service, and dedication's to the Church of England.

Should any dare think that the Church of England, and the srcibes from that organization were each and everyone guided by Gods own hand I do believe I've got the deal of a life time ment just for you. You see I have this bridge in Brooklyn I've been trying to sell, now if your interested beings it's for you and all. I'd be willing to go ahead and let it go real CHEEP!! You know just for you...

While I'm at it,, let me go ahead and drop another ton or two on your toe's. All these new English translations, well guess what God wasn't leading them around by the nose either. Their so far beyond the slant of the 1610 translations, they might have just as well stayed home for all the good it's gonna do them. Especially so after God finally gets his hands on them. About the translators that have already passed. I'm sure their all seated real close to the gulfs edge being exactly straight accross the devide from the lake of fire.

Now there are some waiting across the devide crying how much longer. Though most of these modern day translators aren't about to so much as make a single peep.

This may be a hard one to swallow but the truth is God draws near to him those whom he wishes to know the truth. It's not available to any non-believers to hold up and then never be accountable.

No truth, no freedom.

Dob!!

If you did not have time to post, why did you?

[praetorian]

Dob:

I not sure I understand the purpose of your post and unless I am mistaken, it does not have anything to do with the theme of this string/thread! Again, if it does, then by all means please pardon my error and please take the time to explain it. Also, when you get a moment, please send me a message on this system as it appears I am unable to do so with the new changes, despite my paying a fee. I have prepared a response to the mailing you sent me, and am unable to send it. If you wish, you can email me at: praetorian_g@hotmail.com (there is an underscore (_) inbetween the "n" and the "g").

In conclusion, I note that nothing posted here and or above states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Dob:

I not sure I understand the purpose of your post and unless I am mistaken, it does not have anything to do with the theme of this string/thread! Again, if it does, then by all means please pardon my error and please take the time to explain it. Also, when you get a moment, please send me a message on this system as it appears I am unable to do so with the new changes, despite my paying a fee. I have prepared a response to the mailing you sent me, and am unable to send it. If you wish, you can email me at: praetorian_g@hotmail.com (there is an underscore (_) inbetween the "n" and the "g").

In conclusion, I note that nothing posted here and or above states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

The Doctrine of the Trinity was held by all early Christians centuries before the Anathasian Creed. Your religious dogma was invented in 325. Now kindly tell the truth.

[praetorian]

The Doctrine of the Trinity was held by all early Christians centuries before the Anathasian Creed. Your religious dogma was invented in 325. Now kindly tell the truth.

TATM:

You like to argue losing battles so let me help you!

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.

So factually speaking, what you state is the other way around! Why is it that you cannot admit that while you believe in this doctrine so strongly, that IT IS NOT EXPLICITY TAUGHT IN THE NT OF BIBLE!!!!

I again remind you in addition to the above legitimate reference sources I remind you of the NON JW references like the ones found here below:

(http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html), where mainstream “Christian Scholars”, readily express the same thing as those above, that the doctrine of God being Triune (Whether it be Trinity or Oneness) is "not explicitly stated in the Bible."

And, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Why do I have to keep posting the same post over and over again? Kindly pay attention.

[praetorian]

Why do I have to keep posting the same post over and over again? Kindly pay attention.

TATM:

Quite frankly it is you that is repeating the same old stuff with different dressings!!! All I am doing is pointing out the obvious in reply!!! Which I might add are legitimate references that completely contradict what you state in your posts!!!!

If you truly having something different on this string/thread on the “TRINITY” to point out then I will respond with something new, however, all you do is IGNORE what contradicts you, to obstinately repeat, as stated, the same old stuff with different dressings!

However since the theme of this string/thread is the Trinity, then know, that nothing you show-post here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

[praetorian]

Must I keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

TATM:

Your post here, above, number 787, is a total disregard for this board as you are waiting space by repeating matters that have already been addressed and I note, I will respond, because not doing so, may allow you and those like you to think that you have actually replied to the issue at hand (the Trinity NOT explicitly stated in the Bible) when you clearly have not!!!! Separate to this you insult yourself, for doing so, when anyone reading this thread can easily know the accuracy of what I represent in this paragraph!!!!

You keep insisting on IGNORING the POINT and that is, nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

The POINT: The responses I provide are from the Bible and I don’t know how many other times or ways in English, that I can express that I am speaking from the standpoint of the Bible and not outsides sources (The “Apostolic Fathers”, that is NOT to be confused with the Apostles and or any of the inspired writers of the Bible) as opposed to the Bible itself, which you keep referring to, but THAT IS NOT BIBLE!!!!

With that said, I will waste more time to respond however, note that you make mention of these same things below, via repetition (though less this time) as you do with your post as found on page 21 of this thread, post number 401 dated 2-14-09 so that others can see that what you do here is nothing new! Also, I replied to your post 401 (which was supposed to have a follow up PART 2, that was never written nor is this one either as this is a partial repeat of your post) under it as post number 407, dated 2-16-09!

Now onto your post above number 787 dated 3.26.09, and note, it is VERY TELLING!!!!!!! Let us see if you even get this. In effect, you are going to MAN-HUMANS-NOTE-NOT BIBLE to establish what you believe! GET IT!!! MAN NOT BIBLE!!!!

NOTE: I hope you can get this point: You obviously went to HUMANS FOR SUPPORT FOR YOUR BELIEFS, which is the WRONG way to get these answers; and despite this, I will address your HUMANS below, while NEVER forgetting that we are supposed to be using God’s word the Bible to settling things!!!!

I take for granted that you “appear” to accurately quote "Polycarp (as I did not do the research for accuracy, for this reply) who himself stated, according to you, “believing in him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ”; therefore, this raises the question; who is this one that raised Jesus from the Dead? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! It does not state here, that Jesus is God or that God is a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! (YOU CAN”T, therego why you are doing this) He also stated, according to you, that Jesus is on a “throne at his right hand” so, at whose right hand is Jesus sitting, “It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! NOTE: Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! He also stated, according to you, that that all things were “subjected” to him, so, who decided to, and “subjected” all things to Jesus? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not that Jesus did this to Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! Also, who is it that will hold the “blood” of ones “responsible” note; it is the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

So far, everything you quoted from Polycarp is indeed found in scripture while nothing in scripture referred to here, or stated, tells you clearly that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!

Note, according to you, Polycarp’s other words: that he praises someone, “through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son” therefore, to whom is Polycarp addressing himself, it cannot be Jesus as this words do not do that? It was to the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

Right after quoting the same exact information about Polycarp in your post 401 (on page 21 of this thread) you state, "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ”; please note how these words do nothing to establish your man made based beliefs, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as this clearly speaks of what is found in scripture, that Jesus has a God and Father, and that Jesus is a High Priest”; therefore, to whom is Jesus serving as High Priest to, and for whom, if your theory of man made beliefs, tells you that Jesus is God and that God is Triune, which by the way, nothing in the words of Polycarp quoted so far indicate this!!!! Thus Jesus is serving as High Priest according to your thinking, to himself and or part of himself! This is NOT BIBLICAL!!!!! So, my question is: Did you read what you posted? Do you see, or can you tell me where in the words you quoted so far, you find the point that supports your belief in man made theology, creeds and dogma; where it that it states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune as so far, we have them spoken of here as separate!!!!!!!

Now, let us discuss the quotes you refer to as coming from Ignatius:

I note that another quote from you states of him, “having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time” and point out that his own statement speaks of Jesus Christ (obviously speaking to his pre-human existence that the Bible clearly mentions) that “was with the Father” speaking of them separately, as again, nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!

You then quote him as stating, “might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him” thus according to these words (again not Bible but his words) that one is to be “fully convinced” that there is “ONE GOD” who “revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son” again, speaking of them separately as NOTHING in these words state, that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!! NOTHING!!!! Note, that to that, he is quoted as stating, “in every respect pleased him” so, who is being spoken of here, Jesus, was Jesus pleasing Jesus? Don’t be ridiculous, he was pleasing his God and Father, and that totally make’s sense!!!!! However, NOTHING here speaks to Jesus being God or that God is Triune, NOTHING!!!!!

You state, “Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles” and this is NOT at issue, what is at issue is whether or not the Bible teaches, or expresses, simply, clearly and plainly that Jesus is God and whether or not God is Triune, WHICH IT DOES NOT AND THAT YOU ARE IN EFFECT STATING, BY NOT DEALING WITH IT, IGNORING IT!!!!!

Note your further quote here, “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son” note now they are spoken of differently, “Father” AND “Jesus” and again nothing here states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!! Now here, Ignatius, makes a LEAP of words, note: “…love for Jesus Christ our God…” however, there is NOTHING he refers to in the Bible to make this LEAP of words, rather, it is his writing, his opinion that does this!!!!! SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE HE GETS THIS AS CLEARLY AS HE STATED IT. Finally, by making such a LEAP-opinion, he contradicts what he states earlier in your quotes, and later, where he speaks of them the way the Bible speaks of them, separately, as the Son of God, while referring to the God and Father of Jesus, and again, nothing other than HIS own words, state this, as it is not clearly, simply and explicitly stated in the Bible!!!! Do you honestly NOT SEE THIS???

Now in your post 401 on page 21 of this thread you make mention of other things that I replied to however, I only refer to one here below as you quoted from a book that is NOT from the Bible when I reply to you as stating, “Lastly you quote, "Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2) and I first point out that this is NOT a book of the Bible; as it is NOT in your Bible!!!! Further, this plainly states we should imitate Jesus because “he is of his Father” thus showing they are not the same and again, nothing here shows that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!!

Now here we move onto Clement of Rome:

Which you quote as stating, “…the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ…” which speaks to them being separate, as it speaks of God giving the commandments, “through” his Son, and states nothing about Jesus being God or that God is Triune!!!!! I find it interesting that you went to a Catholic Pope for your reference!!!! Where is the Bible in all of this??????? It does not take a genius to figure out from here, how these teachings then were transferred to other religions of Christendom!!! (PLEASE READ Acts 20:25-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Now onto Shepard of Hermas:

You really go out of your way here to not use the Bible, which act, by itself, should serve to tell you and the readers of this post, something about your believing in MAN over Bible and not very good at that!!!!

You quote him as clearly referring to Jesus as “the Son of God” and also, “The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation” which supports what is in the Bible about Jesus being older than all His Father and God’s Creation and that Jesus was the “counselor” in God’s creation, however, NOTHING here states that Jesus is God, but rather clearly as being separate, and nothing states that God is Triune!!!!!

Again, did you read your own post BEFORE posting it as all you do, is continue to support my posts above!!!!! Thank you as you are going through a lot of trouble to support what I have represented all along, that the Bible does not state Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Justin Martyr;

NOTE: that it is Justin Martyr, who uses the word “Triune” and reply; that such a word is not in he Bible!!!!! The remainder of your quote of him, you will note, he is speaking and interpreting or putting his personal spin on, his view that “we worship and adore” referring to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but again, where are we told to do this in the Bible? Sir, it is NOT Justin Martr that tells me how to worship God, it is God, that does so clearly and simply in the Bible!!! This is continuing proof that you are relying and placing your faith on men’s teachings over the Bible!!!!!

Now onto your quote of Athenagoras, but first, your statement, “The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form: and reply, I here do not here speak to the view of the Oneness of Pentecostals, and in fact, nor I do so for the JW’s, as if you carefully read my posts, you will clearly see, that I am speaking as to Bible, and ONLY BIBLE, which for some reason you totally IGNORE in favor or humans!!!! I don’t!!!! Now as to JW’s and their literature, they have quoted these sources as I am doing here, by taking your word for accuracy (not in question, accepted) to make a point that nothing here, states that the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, and even for the couple or few times, we have found such a thing (Holy Scripture quoted above), it is NOT Bible that states this, but MAN!!!!!!

Here Athenagoras, states in part, “by whom the universe has been created through his logos” thus God created the universe “through” the logos, Christ, and this is what the Bible clearly states!!!! And also “Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son.” Both of these statements clearly speak of both of them, God and his Son Jesus, separately!!!!!! Nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!! I also find it interesting that he speaks of the “Holy Spirit” as an “effluence” of God, which means, as flowing or coming from God!!! Very Interesting!!!

Now here Athenagoras, states, “…God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" and note that here he actually speaks of “both their power” and not THREE; and also, this phrase, “God the Father, and of God the Son” is something (besides being a dyslectic thought with substitution) that is clearly not found in the Bible, but as you are clearly adept as demonstrating, comes from man, human teaching and sayings, THOUGH NOT BIBLE!!!!!!!! And nothing here speaks of Jesus Being God and or that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Irenaues: You quote him here as stating, "This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; and reply, did you note the very first sentence that states, “God the Father, not made” why this distinction? Because the Son of God was made, was begotten, generated etc. (that is what the Bible simply tells us) which is a term that can never be applied to God-EVER!!!! Wow, this is all simply part of the words of my previous posts!!!!

Now onto to Irenaeus: Here you refer to the quote from Irenaeus, as stating, speaking to the early church, “[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God” which speaks of them separately as “One” God, and also “One” Son of God (NOTE: Ephesians 4:5-6) Now after this, NOTE how the word or term, “incarnate” is introduced, which is another one of those words and or phrases like “God the Son” that clearly does not exist in the Bible, NOTE AGAIN any Bible, but instead that is man made!!!! If you don’t agree, then SHOW ME where in the Bible it states that Jesus is God incarnate? You will be unable to do this as this is a man made teaching, dogma, creed and theology of humans!!!!! IT IS NOT BIBLE!!!! You continue to prove, that you believe in, is what man has taught over, or verses what is plainly, simply and clearly stated in the Bible; and thus I and those like me MUST BE wrong for rejecting human thinking over what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states and teaches over HUMANS!!!! Sir, you have your priorities WRONG as this reply and your words are proving!!!!! You believe in man, and then attribute it to God! Well, good for you!!!!

Back to Irenaues: who states, according to you; “and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus” and note, that this too, regarding Jesus ascension into heaven “in the flesh”, is NOT Bible, but is man’s teachings and is contradicted by the Bible’s own words at 1 Corinthians 15:50, that clearly tell you that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” along with the previous verses in Corinthians mentioning the distinction between a “natural body” (or as some Bibles state it, “physical” body) and a “spiritual one.” Thus again, this is a human opinion, thinking, creed, dogma, theology that is NOT found in the Bible, as the Bible contradicts this!!!! The same holds true of this non Biblical statement of Irenaues, “, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father” that refers to Jesus as God, while at the same time continuing to discuss the Father, separately!!!! You will easily note that nothing in these quotes demonstrates-that Jesus is God, and or that God is Triune FROM THE BIBLE, but yes, it does, from MAN!!!!!! This is the distinction!!!! You have to see that, even if you don’t agree with me, and believe in this doctrine!!!! It is man stating this and NOT God!!!!

Now, in case for you forgot, it was directly after my replying to similarliy as above, where your writings clearly PROVE that all you do is go out of your way to AVOID THE BIBLE and attempt to establish your beliefs by NON BIBLE writings, that you then chose to ATTACK the credibility of what God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures that we as humans refer to universally as “The Bible” and then after that was shown to be a sham, you go back to the same thing, that of AVOIDING THE USE OF THE BIBLE to instead refer to writings outside the Bible to prove your pagan beliefs that “God is Triune” and or that “Jesus is God” when again it is NOT the ISSUE!!!!

In closing, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Blew your position again, didn't I?

[praetorian]

Blew your position again, didn't I?

TATM:

You are real issues and need help.

The only thing you that you possibly “blew” is your own mind!

As, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

Get a life! Oh I forgot you have one, just a delusional one that you and your parishioners live in!!! Don’t forget to pack for that comet trip!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



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Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



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Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



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Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



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Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



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Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

[praetorian]

Originally Posted by the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



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Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

TATM:

Your post here, above, number 787, is a total disregard for this board as you are waiting space by repeating matters that have already been addressed and I note, I will respond, because not doing so, may allow you and those like you to think that you have actually replied to the issue at hand (the Trinity NOT explicitly stated in the Bible) when you clearly have not!!!! Separate to this you insult yourself, for doing so, when anyone reading this thread can easily know the accuracy of what I represent in this paragraph!!!!

You keep insisting on IGNORING the POINT and that is, nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

The POINT: The responses I provide are from the Bible and I don’t know how many other times or ways in English, that I can express that I am speaking from the standpoint of the Bible and not outsides sources (The “Apostolic Fathers”, that is NOT to be confused with the Apostles and or any of the inspired writers of the Bible) as opposed to the Bible itself, which you keep referring to, but THAT IS NOT BIBLE!!!!

With that said, I will waste more time to respond however, note that you make mention of these same things below, via repetition (though less this time) as you do with your post as found on page 21 of this thread, post number 401 dated 2-14-09 so that others can see that what you do here is nothing new! Also, I replied to your post 401 (which was supposed to have a follow up PART 2, that was never written nor is this one either as this is a partial repeat of your post) under it as post number 407, dated 2-16-09!

Now onto your post above number 787 dated 3.26.09, and note, it is VERY TELLING!!!!!!! Let us see if you even get this. In effect, you are going to MAN-HUMANS-NOTE-NOT BIBLE to establish what you believe! GET IT!!! MAN NOT BIBLE!!!!

NOTE: I hope you can get this point: You obviously went to HUMANS FOR SUPPORT FOR YOUR BELIEFS, which is the WRONG way to get these answers; and despite this, I will address your HUMANS below, while NEVER forgetting that we are supposed to be using God’s word the Bible to settling things!!!!

I take for granted that you “appear” to accurately quote "Polycarp (as I did not do the research for accuracy, for this reply) who himself stated, according to you, “believing in him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ”; therefore, this raises the question; who is this one that raised Jesus from the Dead? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! It does not state here, that Jesus is God or that God is a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! (YOU CAN”T, therego why you are doing this) He also stated, according to you, that Jesus is on a “throne at his right hand” so, at whose right hand is Jesus sitting, “It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! NOTE: Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! He also stated, according to you, that that all things were “subjected” to him, so, who decided to, and “subjected” all things to Jesus? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not that Jesus did this to Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! Also, who is it that will hold the “blood” of ones “responsible” note; it is the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

So far, everything you quoted from Polycarp is indeed found in scripture while nothing in scripture referred to here, or stated, tells you clearly that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!

Note, according to you, Polycarp’s other words: that he praises someone, “through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son” therefore, to whom is Polycarp addressing himself, it cannot be Jesus as this words do not do that? It was to the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

Right after quoting the same exact information about Polycarp in your post 401 (on page 21 of this thread) you state, "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ”; please note how these words do nothing to establish your man made based beliefs, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as this clearly speaks of what is found in scripture, that Jesus has a God and Father, and that Jesus is a High Priest”; therefore, to whom is Jesus serving as High Priest to, and for whom, if your theory of man made beliefs, tells you that Jesus is God and that God is Triune, which by the way, nothing in the words of Polycarp quoted so far indicate this!!!! Thus Jesus is serving as High Priest according to your thinking, to himself and or part of himself! This is NOT BIBLICAL!!!!! So, my question is: Did you read what you posted? Do you see, or can you tell me where in the words you quoted so far, you find the point that supports your belief in man made theology, creeds and dogma; where it that it states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune as so far, we have them spoken of here as separate!!!!!!!

Now, let us discuss the quotes you refer to as coming from Ignatius:

I note that another quote from you states of him, “having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time” and point out that his own statement speaks of Jesus Christ (obviously speaking to his pre-human existence that the Bible clearly mentions) that “was with the Father” speaking of them separately, as again, nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!

You then quote him as stating, “might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him” thus according to these words (again not Bible but his words) that one is to be “fully convinced” that there is “ONE GOD” who “revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son” again, speaking of them separately as NOTHING in these words state, that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!! NOTHING!!!! Note, that to that, he is quoted as stating, “in every respect pleased him” so, who is being spoken of here, Jesus, was Jesus pleasing Jesus? Don’t be ridiculous, he was pleasing his God and Father, and that totally make’s sense!!!!! However, NOTHING here speaks to Jesus being God or that God is Triune, NOTHING!!!!!

You state, “Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles” and this is NOT at issue, what is at issue is whether or not the Bible teaches, or expresses, simply, clearly and plainly that Jesus is God and whether or not God is Triune, WHICH IT DOES NOT AND THAT YOU ARE IN EFFECT STATING, BY NOT DEALING WITH IT, IGNORING IT!!!!!

Note your further quote here, “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son” note now they are spoken of differently, “Father” AND “Jesus” and again nothing here states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!! Now here, Ignatius, makes a LEAP of words, note: “…love for Jesus Christ our God…” however, there is NOTHING he refers to in the Bible to make this LEAP of words, rather, it is his writing, his opinion that does this!!!!! SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE HE GETS THIS AS CLEARLY AS HE STATED IT. Finally, by making such a LEAP-opinion, he contradicts what he states earlier in your quotes, and later, where he speaks of them the way the Bible speaks of them, separately, as the Son of God, while referring to the God and Father of Jesus, and again, nothing other than HIS own words, state this, as it is not clearly, simply and explicitly stated in the Bible!!!! Do you honestly NOT SEE THIS???

Now in your post 401 on page 21 of this thread you make mention of other things that I replied to however, I only refer to one here below as you quoted from a book that is NOT from the Bible when I reply to you as stating, “Lastly you quote, "Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2) and I first point out that this is NOT a book of the Bible; as it is NOT in your Bible!!!! Further, this plainly states we should imitate Jesus because “he is of his Father” thus showing they are not the same and again, nothing here shows that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!!

Now here we move onto Clement of Rome:

Which you quote as stating, “…the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ…” which speaks to them being separate, as it speaks of God giving the commandments, “through” his Son, and states nothing about Jesus being God or that God is Triune!!!!! I find it interesting that you went to a Catholic Pope for your reference!!!! Where is the Bible in all of this??????? It does not take a genius to figure out from here, how these teachings then were transferred to other religions of Christendom!!! (PLEASE READ Acts 20:25-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Now onto Shepard of Hermas:

You really go out of your way here to not use the Bible, which act, by itself, should serve to tell you and the readers of this post, something about your believing in MAN over Bible and not very good at that!!!!

You quote him as clearly referring to Jesus as “the Son of God” and also, “The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation” which supports what is in the Bible about Jesus being older than all His Father and God’s Creation and that Jesus was the “counselor” in God’s creation, however, NOTHING here states that Jesus is God, but rather clearly as being separate, and nothing states that God is Triune!!!!!

Again, did you read your own post BEFORE posting it as all you do, is continue to support my posts above!!!!! Thank you as you are going through a lot of trouble to support what I have represented all along, that the Bible does not state Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Justin Martyr;

NOTE: that it is Justin Martyr, who uses the word “Triune” and reply; that such a word is not in he Bible!!!!! The remainder of your quote of him, you will note, he is speaking and interpreting or putting his personal spin on, his view that “we worship and adore” referring to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but again, where are we told to do this in the Bible? Sir, it is NOT Justin Martr that tells me how to worship God, it is God, that does so clearly and simply in the Bible!!! This is continuing proof that you are relying and placing your faith on men’s teachings over the Bible!!!!!

Now onto your quote of Athenagoras, but first, your statement, “The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form: and reply, I here do not here speak to the view of the Oneness of Pentecostals, and in fact, nor I do so for the JW’s, as if you carefully read my posts, you will clearly see, that I am speaking as to Bible, and ONLY BIBLE, which for some reason you totally IGNORE in favor or humans!!!! I don’t!!!! Now as to JW’s and their literature, they have quoted these sources as I am doing here, by taking your word for accuracy (not in question, accepted) to make a point that nothing here, states that the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, and even for the couple or few times, we have found such a thing (Holy Scripture quoted above), it is NOT Bible that states this, but MAN!!!!!!

Here Athenagoras, states in part, “by whom the universe has been created through his logos” thus God created the universe “through” the logos, Christ, and this is what the Bible clearly states!!!! And also “Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son.” Both of these statements clearly speak of both of them, God and his Son Jesus, separately!!!!!! Nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!! I also find it interesting that he speaks of the “Holy Spirit” as an “effluence” of God, which means, as flowing or coming from God!!! Very Interesting!!!

Now here Athenagoras, states, “…God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" and note that here he actually speaks of “both their power” and not THREE; and also, this phrase, “God the Father, and of God the Son” is something (besides being a dyslectic thought with substitution) that is clearly not found in the Bible, but as you are clearly adept as demonstrating, comes from man, human teaching and sayings, THOUGH NOT BIBLE!!!!!!!! And nothing here speaks of Jesus Being God and or that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Irenaues: You quote him here as stating, "This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; and reply, did you note the very first sentence that states, “God the Father, not made” why this distinction? Because the Son of God was made, was begotten, generated etc. (that is what the Bible simply tells us) which is a term that can never be applied to God-EVER!!!! Wow, this is all simply part of the words of my previous posts!!!!

Now onto to Irenaeus: Here you refer to the quote from Irenaeus, as stating, speaking to the early church, “[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God” which speaks of them separately as “One” God, and also “One” Son of God (NOTE: Ephesians 4:5-6) Now after this, NOTE how the word or term, “incarnate” is introduced, which is another one of those words and or phrases like “God the Son” that clearly does not exist in the Bible, NOTE AGAIN any Bible, but instead that is man made!!!! If you don’t agree, then SHOW ME where in the Bible it states that Jesus is God incarnate? You will be unable to do this as this is a man made teaching, dogma, creed and theology of humans!!!!! IT IS NOT BIBLE!!!! You continue to prove, that you believe in, is what man has taught over, or verses what is plainly, simply and clearly stated in the Bible; and thus I and those like me MUST BE wrong for rejecting human thinking over what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states and teaches over HUMANS!!!! Sir, you have your priorities WRONG as this reply and your words are proving!!!!! You believe in man, and then attribute it to God! Well, good for you!!!!

Back to Irenaues: who states, according to you; “and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus” and note, that this too, regarding Jesus ascension into heaven “in the flesh”, is NOT Bible, but is man’s teachings and is contradicted by the Bible’s own words at 1 Corinthians 15:50, that clearly tell you that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” along with the previous verses in Corinthians mentioning the distinction between a “natural body” (or as some Bibles state it, “physical” body) and a “spiritual one.” Thus again, this is a human opinion, thinking, creed, dogma, theology that is NOT found in the Bible, as the Bible contradicts this!!!! The same holds true of this non Biblical statement of Irenaues, “, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father” that refers to Jesus as God, while at the same time continuing to discuss the Father, separately!!!! You will easily note that nothing in these quotes demonstrates-that Jesus is God, and or that God is Triune FROM THE BIBLE, but yes, it does, from MAN!!!!!! This is the distinction!!!! You have to see that, even if you don’t agree with me, and believe in this doctrine!!!! It is man stating this and NOT God!!!!

Now, in case for you forgot, it was directly after my replying to similarliy as above, where your writings clearly PROVE that all you do is go out of your way to AVOID THE BIBLE and attempt to establish your beliefs by NON BIBLE writings, that you then chose to ATTACK the credibility of what God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures that we as humans refer to universally as “The Bible” and then after that was shown to be a sham, you go back to the same thing, that of AVOIDING THE USE OF THE BIBLE to instead refer to writings outside the Bible to prove your pagan beliefs that “God is Triune” and or that “Jesus is God” when again it is NOT the ISSUE!!!!

In closing, Nothing you show here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Still having problems defending your religion's dogmas, I see.

[praetorian]

Still having problems defending your religion's dogmas, I see.

TATM:

With all due respect, you need to be specific; as first, I do not have any “dogma”, nor is my faith attached to any “dogma” other than what the Bible plainly states on spiritual matters!

As to the above, I believe that I have indeed provided you responses that have come from the Bible, not my own opinion, however if I did not, please be so kind as to point the same out for reply.

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Dogma: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets *pedagogical dogma* c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.

Come, name one single Christian, association, congregation or organization that agrees with your religion's lunacy.

[praetorian]

[QUOTE=the_apostolic_truth_ministries;378068]Dogma: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets *pedagogical dogma* c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.



TATM:

I agree with what you state here with commentary. While I agree with the definition of “dogma” here, “dogma” itself has come to mean and represent certain established patterns of thinking, that I and or my faith do not agree with, and add, that our doing so is not arbitrary nor capricious, just to be difficult, but rather our “established opinion” holds strictly and solely to the Bible for it’s beliefs (dogma as “established opinion” based solely on the Bible) rather than the usual and customary ways of “dogma” where other sources outside the Bible dictate what those beliefs should be.

As to your last statement I reply that if I were to name a “single Christian, association, congregation or organization that agrees with” my “religions” views (“lunacy") then they would be JW’s as if they don’t they won’t! I add further what I have stated here ad nauseam to this matter, that if you are using this as some sort of a ‘divining rod’ in order to establish who is telling the ‘truth’ about God or not, (meaning worshipping the God and Father of Jesus Christ in the manner he demands of us) then your method (divining rod) is not valid as God’s people in the "Bible" have always been in the minority (Jews and Christians) and have been always been considered “lunatics” from the standpoint of others or rather the majority! Note what Jesus relatives thought (as the people did also) about Jesus at Mark 3: 20-21.

In this, you and I have diametrically opposed opinions and in this, it is more than OK to agree to disagree!

Oh, and BTW: Nothing you post here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Cut & paste is the extreme of your knowledge.

[praetorian]

Cut & paste is the extreme of your knowledge.


Your are indeed correct as why use other words when they are already said!

Oh, and BTW: Nothing you post here or anywhere else, states explicitly, plainly, clearly, simply grammatically speaking IN THE BIBLE that “Jesus is God” or that “God is Triune” FROM THE BIBLE, instead you must infer and imply it because of your choosing to believe in man made teachings stemming from The Anathasian Creed PERIOD!

TP