the trinity

[turtle]

turtle, obviously you still miss the point. This has nothing to do with an eye for an eye. Actually it might in arron's case. He seems to be living by this principle...if he hates me, then I hate him, if he despises me, then I despise him right back. Where is turning the other cheek in that?
I'm not sitting here in judgment of arron. I'm simply expressing what I see as happening and why it is happening. I know better than judge others, because I am far from being perfect. I have so many things wrong in my life, that it would literally fill a book just to list them all. IOW, I have plenty of experience as to why we might do or not do the things we do sometimes.

Maybe so, but I learn alot time ago just because someone hates you, that you don't in turn treat them with respect. YOu the Bible says to pray for your enemies. I be honest, that is so hard to do sometimes.

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
(43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
(46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
(47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[Night_Light]

I have so many things wrong in my life, that it would literally fill a book just to list them all.Oneway


Oneway, it might help us all if you list your faults..go ahead we dont; know who you are so it could help someone:)

[oneway]

Maybe arron was mad originally, and maybe turtle found an outlet for her anger and arron never did.



This would be a good one to take to a professional in order to dissect it's meaning. Either you're toying with my mind, or perhaps you're subtly hinting that TATM does indeed have reason to conclude that you and arron are one and the same.

[Night_Light]

oneway....this has kind of bothered me today and in fact it has bothered me for quite some time..I have gone back into the archives about 4 years..arron/tc has always been just who he is today-same thoughts, same spelling..I just don't think someone could or would fake that for over 4 years...R

[turtle]

This would be a good one to take to a professional in order to dissect it's meaning. Either you're toying with my mind, or perhaps you're subtly hinting that TATM does indeed have reason to conclude that you and arron are one and the same.

No way we are the same. Fact is no way no way no way, or at least not physically, maybe spiritually.

[oneway]

oneway....this has kind of bothered me today and in fact it has bothered me for quite some time..I have gone back into the archives about 4 years..arron/tc has always been just who he is today-same thoughts, same spelling..I just don't think someone could or would fake that for over 4 years...R



Night_Light, in all seriousness, I don't really believe arron is anyone but arron. Even when he changed his name to TC, he made it clear to everyone that he was arron. IOW, I don't believe arron to be a phony, and I don't believe he is suffering from DID. I'm fairly certain that you can rest assured that arron is arron, and no one else. That's what I honestly believe in my heart. I'm still trying to figure out who turtle is. It's hard to tell with her sometimes, but I still tend to believe that she is simply turtle and no one else.

[turtle]

oneway....this has kind of bothered me today and in fact it has bothered me for quite some time..I have gone back into the archives about 4 years..arron/tc has always been just who he is today-same thoughts, same spelling..I just don't think someone could or would fake that for over 4 years...R

Nightly i can explain why my spelling got better. The more you practice the better you often get. Has much as I type I got to get better or else I do not learn anything and typing is a waste of time. It called perfectionism, that I do not have.

[turtle]

arron, the truth is, and I have to admit it, since I dearly care for you. It's called tough love. Sometimes being blunt and straight to the point is the only way to get someone's attention.

Seriously arron, why does it matter what anyone thinks of your beliefs? You know in your heart that you're a Christian. That's all that matters. When you make it to heaven, there will be no denominations. There won't be Pentecostals in this section, Baptists in that section, etc. So why make it this way while we're yet alive? If you want to be Pentecostal, then be Pentecostal, but you have to allow others to be what they choose. And just as you believe you are right, so do others belive that they are right. We need to get past all of this, and just love and pray for one another, no matter how much different some of our beliefs are. arron, I truly love you, and I mean that. I don't want to see you quit posting, I just want to see you own up to what you post sometimes.

Maybe arron is stil learning, we all did not talk before we began to walk. Metaphor please drum roll.

[easeltine]

There are some of us that believe that some of the people posting are really fake people made-up by FACTNet to encourage debating. That some are a part of the ADMIN of FACTNet and some say they have been banned by FACTNet in retaliation for coming up against the fake peoples lies. I have never been banned from FACTNet...though it seems like personal mail sent by the User's CP may have been read by ADMIN.

I don't know, just suspicious.

[Night_Light]

I just wanted to say..that recently I as well have felt like someone has had access to my account. Some of my user settings had been changed without my knowledge...R

[Night_Light]

Of course maybe if factnet had gone down-this could of been a system fluke...who knows.

[oneway]

There are some of us that believe that some of the people posting are really fake people made-up by FACTNet to
encourage debating. [/FONT][/SIZE]


Personally, I fail to see the logic in this. Why would Factnet want to encourage debating by making up fake people in order to do so? To accomplish what??

Now if you would have stated, to discourage debating, then I might see your point. I'm pretty certain if Factnet were really wanting to see debates in here, watchman_2 would still be here. He was the king of debators, yet it seems that he has been banned, since we haven't seen him here in ages.

[Night_Light]

Oneway..I don't seem to know you very well are you a man a woman? And have you truthfully only posted as oneway on factnet or have you had another name in the past..R

[oneway]

Oneway..I don't seem to know you very well are you a man a woman? And have you truthfully only posted as oneway on factnet or have you had another name in the past..R



It's like this night_light, you're only going to believe what you want to believe, irregardless of the truth. Honestly, I can't even understand why you even asked me what my gender is. Surely you should know by now. BTW, you claim to be female. The truth is, I don't even know you personally, but I believe you. Why do I believe you? I can pretty much discern when one is a phony or not. I've never discerned you to be a phony. The truth is, I've always respected and admired you, irregardless if the feeling wasn't mutual. I still feel that way towards you.

I'm male, just like I have been claiming all these years. I'm pretty certain my wife can attest to that fact. And as sure as I'm typing this, God being my witness, in whom I sincerely believe in, I can assure you that I have never been anyone but oneway since I joined several years back. It doesn't even matter if you don't believe that, it doesn't make it untrue. And that's pretty much how I feel about those that don't believe in God. Just because they don't believe in God, that doesn't mean He doesn't really exist.

I have no reason to be anyone but who I am. The truth is, Ive learned a lot about myself and about others, since being a member here. It's causing me to change accordingly.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

One reason that I might think someone does this is to make it appear than someone is agreeing with them. I'm certain this is not the only reason. But in the case of arron and turtle, they don't always agree with one another. Of course one can blame that on DID. Out of curiosity, how long have you suspected arron of this? Or should I ask, how long have you suspected turtle of this? Which one's the real deal? turtle or arron? Is arron creating an alter personality known as turtle, or is turtle creating an alter personality known as arron? I still fail to see it tho. These people seem to be who they say they are...turtle and arron..two uniquely different individuals.

Six or eight months ago, both posted at nearly the same time. Mr. Arron's post was text book perfect. Rev. Ms. Turtle's post look like Mr. Arron's post normally does. Also in several discussions, Rev. Ms. Turtle has referred to herself as male.

[turtle]

Six or eight months ago, both posted at nearly the same time. Mr. Arron's post was text book perfect. Rev. Ms. Turtle's post look like Mr. Arron's post normally does. Also in several discussions, Rev. Ms. Turtle has referred to herself as male.

You are not telling the truth I see, btw I am going to be gone for a bit so enjoy your sacrasm rant on someone else will you.

[Night_Light]

I apologize oneway..I was just asking because of some things I read on those SC threads a few weeks ago where you were apologizing to smyrna and watchman..I thought it was strange and we have never really had conversation so I wasn't sure who you were only that you were a very nice person.

Everyone goes through scrutiny on an internet forum..it is because we really can't see each other face to face.. the only person I know is real is franklin and that is because I have met in him person and yes he can also attest to the fact I am a woman..

Again no hard feelings. R


PS...we will miss you tatm....hurry back

[fatherofaking]

A while ago i launched an attack on Turtle and Aaron.
This kind of behavior is generated from the inside not from outside circumstances.
If i had taken more time to consider how to respond to the circumstance i would have handled it quite differently.
All i succeeded in doing is to hurt them.
Now i see that what i started has not stopped with my actions but has continued on through others.
I am very sorry for having done this.

It seems to me that we should have more respect for one another than we do.
Everyone of us here whether we claim a belief in god or not, know what it means to be hurt.
If we continue to allow our carnal instincts (animal instincts for you atheists) to reign, how is it that we can claim to be human beings (god's children for you Christians and Theists)?
Do we not claim to be more intelligent than animals?
What is this intelligence that we claim?
What is it doing for us?
Is it going to keep us from biting and devouring one another until we have destroyed ourselves?

What value is there in a book or a belief if it does nothing to make you a better human being?
I want something with substance.
What good does it do to claim that you do not need a belief or a book?
Then how am i to know how to live?
What good are these ideas to me or anyone else without an example of how to live in peace?
So many claim to know the truth yet they have little of substance to offer.

This message board has much more potential.
It takes compassion and empathy to help people, anything else is just hurtful.
We all understand that what is in the darkness can only be revealed by the light.
To accuse is like trying to light up a room with a match.
It gives a small amount of light for a moment but not long enough or bright enough to be certain of anything you saw.
Yet you then proceed to try and convince someone else of something that you are not certain of yourself..
After all, you know you saw something.

If we get to know ourselves a little better (get to know God a little better for the believers) we will understand one another better.
We will develop more compassion and show more empathy.
All of this biting and devouring is just shameful.

[Night_Light]

That was a nice post fatherofaking...You seem like a very thoughtful man.

I actually misunderstood a post I thought TATM was going a way for awhile but it is turtle..sorry sometimes i read things TOO fast!

[truth_child]

i still beleive in the trinity we shou;d always remember that GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST ARE ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS.

[oneway]

I was just asking because of some things I read on those SC threads a few weeks ago where you were
apologizing to smyrna and watchman.


Hi night_life. I guess my conscience gets the best of me sometimes. I just felt I was unfair to them at times. I was basically attacking their beliefs because everyone else was. I was allowing myself to be destracted because of others, instead of really listening to what the Scers were saying. I still don't agree with many of their beliefs, but I have to wonder, are those beliefs really their fault? AM has them pretty well brainwashed. But the same thing can be said about any religion, such as Catholic, Pentecostal, WOF, Baptist. These people only believe what they believe, not because it's always what the Bible teaches, but because it's mainly what their religion teaches.

I would like to adress another issue if I may. And that's the fact that Factnet seems to be turning into a Bible Study Net, instead of a cult awareness board that it's supposed to be. The truth is, Factnet is one of very few boards where one can present their views without being censored by the Admin, or mods. There are many boards just for Christians, but if you try to discuss anything that goes against their fundamentalist beliefs, such as the doctrine of torment, you'll find that you make many enemies, esp with the mods, who will either censor your posts, delete your posts, or simply lock the thread where no one can post. IOW, even on Christian boards, these boards are highly monitored, and if one speaks out against any fundamental teaching, that most take for granted, you can bet they're going to make it known that you're not going to get away with it.


That's why I would rather discuss Bible topics in here, except there's really no one
to discuss them with when it comes right down to it. A lot of times I'm just simply bored, so I may bring up something that has been debated to death, knowing very well, I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind, nor are they going to change mine.


There are certainly many threads with real cults on this site, but how does one engage any of them, if they're not familiar with any of them? Most of these threads discuss persons in high postions in these cults/churches. The problem with that, I have no clue who they're talking about. But if someone were to discuss Arnold Murray, Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, then I have something in common with them, since I'm familiar with these. But cults like the NTTC, 10 Tribes, etc, I really have little clue about them, and they're usually talking about people I never even heard of. So, I would have no idea how to contribute to the discussion, so I just don't.

To be honest, many times in here, I feel the victims of alleged cults are being more victimized by the ones that are supposed to be helping them, than by the alleged cults themselves. And I'm not just pointing fingers at others. I've been guilty of that myself.

[jefffranklin]

oneway

AM has them pretty well brainwashed. But the same thing can be said about any religion, such as Catholic, Pentecostal, WOF, Baptist. These people only believe what they believe, not because it's always what the Bible teaches, but because it's mainly what their religion teaches.


You are WAY OFF comparing, for intance the Baptists, to the brainwashing and perversion of the Bible Arnold Murray does! WAY OFF!

That statement makes me wonder who you are and what you really believe.

[oneway]

You are WAY OFF comparing, for intance the Baptists, to the brainwashing and perversion of the Bible Arnold Murray does! WAY OFF!

That statement makes me wonder who you are and what you really believe.



Come on franklin, play fair now. There is no way that I'm comparing AM to Baptists. You're entirely missing the point. Most people believe what they believe, because that's what they're taught to believe. And this includes Baptists, or whoever. BTW, I was raised a Baptist, and most of my family are still Baptists. But let's face it, many of their doctrines are not found in the Bible. They simply believe what they believe, because that's what they're taught to believe. That was my point. I was in no way comparing AM to any other religion. I think I have sense enought to know that satan didn't have sex with Eve. But I also have sense enought to know that God doesn't torture humans in the lake of fire forever, as Baptists, Pentecostals, etc would have one believe. And whomever would believe this is simply brainwashed by their religion. Endless torment is not taught in the Bible. If it were, I would have found evidence by now,

I'm exactly who I've always been. I just allow myself to try and learn from my mistakes, rather than continue in them.

[Night_Light]

Hi Oneway...thanks for responding-we really have never had a chance to converse in the past...and the name is night-light,not night life...I know I come across as a sexy, single hotshot but really I don't have much of a "night_life..LOL

You said,To be honest, many times in here, I feel the victims of alleged cults are being more victimized by the ones that are supposed to be helping them, than by the alleged cults themselves. And I'm not just pointing fingers at others. I've been guilty of that...

We must be very, very careful of this-you know I have seen this happen many times..the victims are the ones involved in the cult-we rarely see a cult leader present on factnet-usually it is their staunch followers like a smyrna,watchman or Mark:24..that repeatedly defend them to NO end and they need to rightfully be put in their place. But one thing I personally try to do, is point the finger at the leader..like an Arnold Murray, Kenneth Copleand, Ron Hubbard, Tony Alamo etc... we do need to constantly remember precious, humans are lead a stray and victimized by these people...

As far as Bible study net goes..I was getting frustrated with the popular threesome and I do not need to mention names..constantly arguing and really making no headway-it was getting foolish...I just wish to see more people attacking the methods of the FLDS, Christian Science, Twelve Tribes the women and children abused in cults. I would love to see a website where the CULT never wins and that should be the way it is here-people should not be able to defend cults and win-they should not be able to hurl insults, stalk outside of these forums like a few of them have and then be let on over and over again to do the same things-this ticks me off in a huge way..''

Factnet is not all that bad..believe me I came here a broken,confused and goofy girl struggling with a belief in God and the untimely death of my mother due to the involvement of a faith healing cult and have become a very strong woman who knows when she is being played and knows how to play back in order to defeat those whose purpose it is to shut up my resistance to cults.

Keep fighting for what is true and for people to have freedom in their minds- as you said many are bound to religious cults because of upbringing-we need to open up the dialouge to see them set free!

R

[jefffranklin]

Oneway: How do you figure I am not playing fair? I think what you just wrote insulted billions of Christians comparing their beliefs with the SCers. That was not fair of you. Only ones here I have read making similar comments like yours are the Atheists.

There is not a Christian denomination or sect that I can't find some fault with. I don't have all the answers either. Denominations and sects are man made and I am human. But the word of God is inerrant and one day we hope to have the true understanding.

Hopefully you just misstated what you really meant. Because the way it reads you put the minor doctrinal errors and differences of Christian denominations and sects on the same level with an out and out heretical, extra biblical, antisemitic racist cult that perverts scripture to mean that the Jews are the literal spawn of satan and that all non German/celtics are inferior to the "pure" Adamic race who were only descended from Adam and Eve.

I just don't see how you could you could make such a comparison of the racist heresy of the murrayites to any doctrinal error a Christian sect or denomination might have. No way!

I've read most of your posts to the SCers. You do not owe them any apology. No way. The SCers are the ones who should apologize to the world for their hate speech.

Good post night_light! :)

[oneway]

Oneway: How do you figure I am not playing fair? I think what you just wrote insulted billions of Christians comparing their beliefs with the SCers. That was not fair of you. Only ones here I have read making similar comments like yours are the Atheists.

There is not a Christian denomination or sect that I can't find some fault with. I don't have all the answers either. Denominations and sects are man made and I am human. But the word of God is inerrant and one day we hope to have the true understanding.

Hopefully you just misstated what you really meant. Because the way it reads you put the minor doctrinal errors and differences of Christian denominations and sects on the same level with an out and out heretical, extra biblical, antisemitic racist cult that perverts scripture to mean that the Jews are the literal spawn of satan and that all non German/celtics are inferior to the "pure" Adamic race who were only descended from Adam and Eve.

I just don't see how you could you could make such a comparison of the racist heresy of the murrayites to any doctrinal error a Christian sect or denomination might have. No way!

I've read most of your posts to the SCers. You do not owe them any apology. No way. The SCers are the ones who should apologize to the world for their hate speech.

Good post night_light! :)


franklin, this just isn't my day. It seems no one is understanding me today. To be honest, this happens to me all the time in life, but today just seems a little worse than others. I don't owe the SCers an apology for standing against their beliefs, but I do owe them an apology because many times I allowed myself to stoop to their level in order to confront them. IOW, this made me no better than them, despite our differences in beliefs. But one thing I won't do is apologize for fighting untruths with truth. False doctrines, and false teachers come in all varieties. They're not bound to any one religion or org. False doctrines, and false teachers are what I'm against. When I discern a false doctrine, it doesn't matter if it's JW, SCer, Baptist, or whatever, it's still a false doctrine. Any false doctrine is not of the Lord, no matter which religion it may be found in, because a false doctrine is not truth.


I've been here for almost 2-3 years now. I would have thought everyone would know me by now. But it appears that no one even has a clue about me. The funny thing about it, I seem to know the rest of you, but none of you seem to know me. IOW, I understand where most of you are coming from, I understand what most of you believe or don't believe, yet none of you seem to have the slightest clue where I'm coming from nor what I believe, even tho I've been here for several years. I'm not that complicated, I just think outside of the box is all. I look at things from perspectives others may fail to look from. That's just who I am and what i'm about.
So if I discern a false doctrine, it doesn't matter what religious flavor it comes in, it's still a false doctrine to me.

[jefffranklin]

And in the past I have appreciated your unique perspective and would like to see more of it. But you are being too one dimensional on this point. You struck out! Arnold Murray's hate speech against all who aren't of german/gaelic ancestry and in particular falsely accusing the Jews of being subhuman devil's spawn endangers billions of innocent people's freedom and lives. Murray's racist hate speech is just as dangerous as that of the Nazi party, KKK and Al Queda! There is no difference.

Different perspectives are commendable. I know mine is different than anyone else's here. But we need to think on differnet levels and dimensions here. What is dangerous and what is just petty.

That's why I don't single out and waste time joining in discussions about the murrayites' other goofy heretical doctrines. They're just petty and not as important compared to their racism.

Whereas Baptists could drive away some people from seeking God with their fire and brimstone, Arnold Murray's hereitcal lies endangers innocent peoples' lives. That is what I am suggesting you do. Not just look at what is wrong but what is downright dangerous. You'll do nothing but make enemies of everyone trying to be a man pleaser. You'll gain more friends and more importantly please God by defending those falsely accused by speaking the bold truth in their defense. Arnold Murray literally demonizes the Jews. That is DANGEROUS! I've consider you an ally in the past in this good fight against antisemitism and racism. And I thank you for that. This is the right fight at the right time. We need your continued support.

I hope you understand what I am saying here. :)

[oneway]

Factnet is not all that bad..believe me I came here a broken,confused and goofy girl struggling with a belief in God and the
untimely death of my mother due to the involvement of a faith healing cult and have become a very strong woman who
knows when she is being played and knows how to play back in order to defeat those whose purpose it is to shut up my
resistance to cults


Night_light, I need to say something here, and I truly hope the words come out right, and that I don't offend, because I know some things are still hard to talk about, like the death of your mother.


When I first got here a cpl of yrs ago, I noticed on some occasions, that some of the SCers would bring your mother into the discussion, but not in a pleasant way. It seemed that they were trying to further cause you injury, since you dared to speak out against their beliefs. The truth is, I went to bed in tears over this several times. It was almost as if I were connecting with your pain. I'm not even sure if you recall any of that, but I was always amazed that you didn't lash back in the same manner. I can only imagine the pain you felt inside tho. I noticed they did the same thing with franklin over his mother, and they also attacked godchild constantly with the past that she also so painfully discussed previously. I've went to bed with tears over franklin and godchild as well. I just felt hurt for you all, that you were being treated in this manner, and how hurtful things in your personal lives were getting drug into the discussions. Some of these Scers were and are truly evil. I guess I need to always remember that, and realize that many of these Scers are not the real victims, those of us trying to reach out to them are.

Night_light, you have a pleasant evening, and you too franklin if you're reading this. I truly appreciete both of you, even tho we may encounter disagreements and misunderstanding from time to time.:)

[turtle]

Not posting for a reason, but I can't help but look at threads and somewhere someone said something I know is ot scripturally correct so i placing it here anyway. See I get frustrated just taking time away and sitting back and saying nothing if I have something to add. Oh well. Maybe I should just be booted.

Revelation 20:10 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Yeah hard to imagine fire and brimstone forever and ever but it is true. What one believes is there own opinion I think.

[Night_Light]

Oneway....you said the right things and thank you..you were feeling my pain. R

[truth_child]

truly hell shall last forever and is full of fire where the punishment goes on forever for thise who go there.
therei s a trinity (which is the subject of this thread ) and that is bible

[jefffranklin]

Everybody knows that hell is not a nice place to visit or live. But if we are truly to "go tell the nations" as we are commanded, in other words spread the "Good News" gospel of Christ then we should tell others about God's unconditional love, forgiveness and eternal life in a true paradise instead.

Who is the better disciple?

This guy?

:mad:

[truth_child]

yes that is to win souls for JESUS we should also tell them of the dangers of hell they face if they do not beleive

[turtle]

Everybody knows that hell is not a nice place to visit or live. But if we are truly to "go tell the nations" as we are commanded, in other words spread the "Good News" gospel of Christ then we should tell others about God's unconditional love, forgiveness and eternal life in a true paradise instead.

Who is the better disciple?

This guy?

:mad:

Let me ask you this is it better to tell the truth and let it fall where it may. Whether it be hellfire or love. The truth is the truth, one must go by the leading of the Holy Spirit and that is the point. You do not know what people need to hear only God does.

[truth_child]

one can hear about the hell fire and the dangers there of going there and then hear about the love of JESUS that keeps us out of hell

[turtle]

one can hear about the hell fire and the dangers there of going there and then hear about the love of JESUS that keeps us out of hell

John 3:15-18 KJV
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[jefffranklin]

Just needs to be balance when the gospel is presented. Too many churches dwell on the fire and brimstone.

[turtle]

Just needs to be balance when the gospel is presented. Too many churches dwell on the fire and brimstone.

Franklin it is like this a sermon can have it all in it.

[truth_child]

hell should be delt with as much as any thing else the whole gospel should be preached

[jefffranklin]

People who need God are already living in hell. Even if there wasn't a hell a life with God within us is paradise compared to the alternative of nothing but shallow worldliness.

Non believers need to see smiles of sincere acceptance and love (NOT cultic phony lovebombing) instead of frowns of disapproval and condemnation.

People need to look at Christian joy and say to themselves "That is what I want in my life."

Not "If that is Christianity then I don't want any part of it." Hell fire and brimstone has that effect on non believers.

Popularity of satanism, marilyn manson, ozzy osbourne, alice cooper and such has been a direct rejection of that fear gospel coming out of some Churches.

arron you show the love of Christ within you. You are not who I am talking to. We all ultimately need to consider our fate in the afterlife.
But Christians with prune faces :( and fear messages will not bring anyone to Christ. If they do it will be for the wrong reasons. Fear of hell wears off by the physicality of this world.

People who don't believe in an afterlife are not affected by a fire and brimstone warning of hell. The way to their heart is what wonderous things God will do for them now in this life.

Cults prey on people's insecurities and keep them captive with those fears. Christ came so that we should live joyously and abundantly in the spirit in this life, in the here in the now.

The majority of what Christ told us concerned our lives in this world. Our message should be like Christ's message. For the here and in the now.

A balanced message is one that uplifts as well as convicts our hearts.

The full gospel should be taught but the right message should be given at the right time to the people who need to hear that message at that time in their life.

[turtle]

People who need God are already living in hell. Even if there wasn't a hell a life with God within us is paradise compared to the alternative of nothing but shallow worldliness.

Non believers need to see smiles of sincere acceptance and love (NOT cultic phony lovebombing) instead of frowns of disapproval and condemnation.

People need to look at Christian joy and say to themselves "That is what I want in my life."

Not "If that is Christianity then I don't want any part of it." Hell fire and brimstone has that effect on non believers.

Popularity of satanism, marilyn manson, ozzy osbourne, alice cooper and such has been a direct rejection of that fear gospel coming out of some Churches.

arron you show the love of Christ within you. You are not who I am talking to. We all ultimately need to consider our fate in the afterlife.
But Christians with prune faces :( and fear messages will not bring anyone to Christ. If they do it will be for the wrong reasons. Fear of hell wears off by the physicality of this world.

People who don't believe in an afterlife are not affected by a fire and brimstone warning of hell. The way to their heart is what wonderous things God will do for them now in this life.

Cults prey on people's insecurities and keep them captive with those fears. Christ came so that we should live joyously and abundantly in the spirit in this life, in the here in the now.

The majority of what Christ told us concerned our lives in this world. Our message should be like Christ's message. For the here and in the now.

A balanced message is one that uplifts as well as convicts our hearts.

The full gospel should be taught but the right message should be given at the right time to the people who need to hear that message at that time in their life.

Franklin who decision is that to make on what is the right messge, yours or God's?? And if you are saying a preacher chooses to preach one way just to passify groups of people that can lola them in and into sleep. Now I give example, I heard of a minister loving people so much that he took them to a drunk fest to see the booze. Is that right is that love. I by no means am I saying you can not love or tell people about Jesus in those situations, but searching for those that will work for nothing to help people and to use those people to work to make you a living is wrong.

[jefffranklin]

The Holy Spirit knows our needs. If someone is in need of the gospel and fellowship but we do not hear from the Holy Spirit to knoiw how to minister to them properly then we need to find someone who can. I've done that before.

If someone is hurting the Holy Spirit will guide us to give that person love and comfort. Not beat them over their head that they'll go to hell for their sins.

If someone is ill we will be guided to pray for them, visit them, offer to take them to a doctor and get medicine for them.

If they are homeless and hungry the Holy Spirit will guide us to give them shelter and food.

If they beaming of pride, haughtiness, greed, condemnation of others while they're sitting in their front row church pews then they need conviction and humbling before God to level their stature among the rest of humanity.

If someone is needing help from alcohol, drug or sexual addictions they do not need to hear about hell. They are already living it and are wanting out. They need help to free themselves by being shown how the love of God is the greatest high possible in this world.

All have heard the basic gospel and know the wages of sin. Death. All messages should contain love, acceptance and conviction. That is the balance that needs to be maintained. But timing is everything.

Many times our presence is enough for someone to feel conviction in their hearts. Don't have to say a word. Why some non believers run from Christians. No need to beat someone over the head with what they reject.
They're not ready.

Christ did not come to convict us but to save us. So neither should we convict others with a "You're going to hell if you...." message.

[turtle]

The Holy Spirit knows our needs. If someone is in need of the gospel and fellowship but we do not hear from the Holy Spirit to knoiw how to minister to them properly then we need to find someone who can. I've done that before.

If someone is hurting the Holy Spirit will guide us to give that person love and comfort. Not beat them over their head that they'll go to hell for their sins.

If someone is ill we will be guided to pray for them, visit them, offer to take them to a doctor and get medicine for them.

If they are homeless and hungry the Holy Spirit will guide us to give them shelter and food.

If they beaming of pride, haughtiness, greed, condemnation of others while they're sitting in their front row church pews then they need conviction and humbling before God to level their stature among the rest of humanity.

If someone is needing help from alcohol, drug or sexual addictions they do not need to hear about hell. They are already living it and are wanting out. They need help to free themselves by being shown how the love of God is the greatest high possible in this world.

All have heard the basic gospel and know the wages of sin. Death. All messages should contain love, acceptance and conviction. That is the balance that needs to be maintained. But timing is everything.

Many times our presence is enough for someone to feel conviction in their hearts. Don't have to say a word. Why some non believers run from Christians. No need to beat someone over the head with what they reject.
They're not ready.

Christ did not come to convict us but to save us. So neither should we convict others with a "You're going to hell if you...." message.

I wish the part of everyone has heard the gospel message was true. You be surprised how many in America do not know the gospel message and only assume something about us or never heard at all. They say big deal who is Jesus? and ask with no care in the world. Kids are growing up without knowledge of Jesus because the Bible is no longer taught in many homes and kids are not made to go to church. Why because the adults have felt rejection and heart ache. Been hurt in some way. These are the people that need to know God still loves them and that the church is there to help as well as be a friend.

Friends do not care if you disagree with them they accept you as you are. Friends are there thick and thin even when you mess up. Friends tolerate differences. I could go on with opinion, but I will not today. That is why I can say I have friends from different beliefs and it saddens me to a degree, I will admit. And I also realize my friends I might not be able to do the things they do because of my convictions. It is you have a friend that is veggiaterian you might be able to eat vegetarian in there presents unless you are a die hard meat eater. Would you friend care one way or the other hopefully not. It is called tolerance.

[jefffranklin]

Only ones Christ showed disrespect for was the religious hypocrites. That should tell us something.

[turtle]

Only ones Christ showed disrespect for was the religious hypocrites. That should tell us something.

Jesus also said to love one another. There is a difference in telling someone the truth and showing hate or telling them the truth and showing them love anyway. because Jesus died for the relgious leaders too.

[jefffranklin]

If somewhere in that cryptic post is the message we should not touch God's anointed, in other words criticize church leaders or other Christians, that is totally unbiblical, unChristian and cultic.

For many, the only thing holding them back from seeking fellowship in church is the many blatant abuses of the religious hypocrites in churches especially in leadership. The Priest pedophiles in the Catholic church is one example. The illgotten wealth of Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyers, Jim Baker, the Crouches are other examples.

Exposing fraudelent behavior or heretical beliefs is not hate. The body of Christ must be cleansed of disease constantly from one generation to the next or it will wither and die.

After all that is what this forum is for.

Christ died for all of us. But He cut the religious leaders of His time no slack. Some accepted him but many did not.

If Christ did not speak out against the abuses and ill gotten wealth of the religious leaders of His time, where would we be now?

Sugarcoat your words however you like to whomever you like. Spin your wheels and get nowhere in cleansing the temple if that is your wish.

I just know I will not remain silent when I see false beliefs taught or fraud perpetrated on other Christians. I will call them heretics and thieves so that the world will take notice.

The raped and abused alter boys did not speak hatred against the predator priests. They just told the truth. And the truth set them free.

[truth_child]

it is bad when any one does such things to children some want tell because of fear

[turtle]

If somewhere in that cryptic post is the message we should not touch God's anointed, in other words criticize church leaders or other Christians, that is totally unbiblical, unChristian and cultic.

For many, the only thing holding them back from seeking fellowship in church is the many blatant abuses of the religious hypocrites in churches especially in leadership. The Priest pedophiles in the Catholic church is one example. The illgotten wealth of Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyers, Jim Baker, the Crouches are other examples.

Exposing fraudelent behavior or heretical beliefs is not hate. The body of Christ must be cleansed of disease constantly from one generation to the next or it will wither and die.

After all that is what this forum is for.

Christ died for all of us. But He cut the religious leaders of His time no slack. Some accepted him but many did not.

If Christ did not speak out against the abuses and ill gotten wealth of the religious leaders of His time, where would we be now?

Sugarcoat your words however you like to whomever you like. Spin your wheels and get nowhere in cleansing the temple if that is your wish.

I just know I will not remain silent when I see false beliefs taught or fraud perpetrated on other Christians. I will call them heretics and thieves so that the world will take notice.

The raped and abused alter boys did not speak hatred against the predator priests. They just told the truth. And the truth set them free.


Touch Not God's Anointed
Numbers 12:1-16 KJV

(1) And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

(2) And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.

(3) (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

(4) And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

(5) And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

(6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

(7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

(9) And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.

(10) And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

(11) And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.

(12) Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.

(13) And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

(14) And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.

(15) And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.

(16) And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.

Touch not God’s anointed seems a bit absurd at times. We think of ministers as human, we think of Christians as human. God’s people however are protected. His chosen are protected. Does not mean they are not acceptable to those things common to man like illness, pain, or even death. It means they are special to God and one can not speak out against them. Moses choice of a bride was upsetting to the other leaders of Israel. In fact so that Miriam tried to take charge so to speak. The problem was kind of an odd one. Miriam was Moses’ sister. She was upset that he choose a bride from Ethiopia. Yet this would forshadow the fact that God would accept Gentiles into his family of chosen children.

Today we live in a society still with the headache of inter racial marriages. It can be as simple as someone marrying anyone from another country or someone marrying different skin color. Though these traditions of man and who should marry whom is slowly disappearing in some circles of the world it is very real in others. It can cause division in a family and it can cause division in the ranks of the church world. Yet God makes it clear in this passage there is no distinction of who we marry based on race. God was upset with Miriam for trying to undermind the prophet Moses. In fact so upset that he punished her with a terrible disease called leprosy. Moses was upset. He loved his sister. In fact loved her so much he told God to heal her. Did not ask but told. And so God said let her suffer seven days. God wanted Miriam to understand the consequence for her actions. Yes she to was chosen but she tried to over throw the leadership because of his decision of a wife. God was making it plain who was in charge.

God puts certain people in charge for a purpose. It is not our job to over run them. In fact despite the traditions of men and women we must respect the choice leaders make. It is not unusual to disagree with someone. It is however our job to allow God to do the choosing of who is in charge and respect the authority of who is in leadership.

[jefffranklin]

God puts certain people in charge for a purpose. It is not our job to over run them. In fact despite the traditions of men and women we must respect the choice leaders make. It is not unusual to disagree with someone. It is however our job to allow God to do the choosing of who is in charge and respect the authority of who is in leadership.


That is absurb and cultic thinking. If everything was God's will and all who are minister's were God's choice then this would not be Earth but heaven. satan many times promotes some into the ministry for his designs, or sways them to do his bidding while they are ministers. Who chose Jim Jones? God? Don't make me laugh!

That is Calvinistic predestination at it's worse. No one knows who the Holy Spirit leads into Ministry and who lept into it for their carnal greed and lusts. Only God knows our heart.

But it is easy for those with their eyes open to know by their fruits who are in the ministry only for their worldly needs and couldn't give a hoot about the spiritual needs of their misled flock. You are doing some unreal cult defending turtle. Standard cult defense. Touch not my annointed. Total abuse of scripture.

Like I've said before you are not here to promote cult awareness but just here to set it back with your cult defending and filibustering every thread with nonsense. You are part of the cause many people are suffering in cults today.

[turtle]

That is absurb and cultic thinking. If everything was God's will and all who are minister's were God's choice then this would not be Earth but heaven. satan many times promotes some into the ministry for his designs, or sways them to do his bidding while they are ministers. Who chose Jim Jones? God? Don't make me laugh!

That is Calvinistic predestination at it's worse. No one knows who the Holy Spirit leads into Ministry and who lept into it for their carnal greed and lusts. Only God knows our heart.

But it is easy for those with their eyes open to know by their fruits who are in the ministry only for their worldly needs and couldn't give a hoot about the spiritual needs of their misled flock. You are doing some unreal cult defending turtle. Standard cult defense. Touch not my annointed. Total abuse of scripture.

Like I've said before you are not here to promote cult awareness but just here to set it back with your cult defending and filibustering every thread with nonsense. You are part of the cause many people are suffering in cults today.

Franklin I defend my faith, but I also expose cultic attitudes. Now you seem more like an atheist then a man of faith that you claim to be. And i for one think you might be a man of faith but you forget if one comes out of an odd situation it is often hard to talk about especially publically. I came originally looking for facts and found out more then I wish to know. See cults like to control people. I for one tell you you got a choice. I for one believe in choice it does not change me praying or helping someone if I am able to do so. You on the other hand assume that cult exposer is about killing religious organizations of all types. I for one believe faith is part of being human and part of a relationship with God. I believe in Jesus the author and finisher of my faith, yet I realize not all agree with me would I consider them a cult no I consider them occult, but it depends on which groups. Not all are cutls and not all are occults. Occults are groups that are dangerous to people even if they go by a cult name. Like for example jim jones was occult not a cult, though he was consider an cult. There is a difference. You need to redefine cult and occult. Seriously somethings are good an somethng are mind control.

[jefffranklin]

I'm not here to kill any religious organization. Just the infection in any organization that abuses religious freedom to fleece the flock and control human beings.

Your claim that all ministers are selected by God and we should submit to their authority is unbiblical and you need to own up to that perversion of God's word.

I'll stand with any atheist or agnostic to help end abuses in any cult pretending to be a church.

It was an agnostic who helped free my child from the cult they were trapped in. And for that I am eternally grateful to them.

And I will stand with any believer in God, no matter what belief, to defend our freedom of religion from the onslaught of atheist attacks on that freedom.

If you want to continue to pretend being a wishy washy luke warm fence straddler in the spiritual war against satan's corruption of the body of Christ then it has already been duly noted.

[turtle]

I'm not here to kill any religious organization. Just the infection in any organization that abuses religious freedom to fleece the flock and control human beings.

Your claim that all ministers are selected by God and we should submit to their authority is unbiblical and you need to own up to that perversion of God's word.

I'll stand with any atheist or agnostic to help end abuses in any cult pretending to be a church.

It was an agnostic who helped free my child from the cult they were trapped in. And for that I am eternally grateful to them.

And I will stand with any believer in God, no matter what belief, to defend our freedom of religion from the onslaught of atheist attacks on that freedom.

If you want to continue to pretend being a wishy washy luke warm fence straddler in the spiritual war against satan's corruption of the body of Christ then it has already been duly noted.

Jeff you apparently do not read scripture do you not realize God punished Miriam for going against Moses who he placed in leadership. Miriam was a leader herself. Now the point is a true minister of God, God is going to protect. The devil he is not. And trust me something are a matter of time and evidence. All Ts should be cross before black balling an individual or proven guilty in a court of law.

[truth_child]

GOD is always the chooser of who HE WAANT TO run things

[jefffranklin]

Nobody today doubts that Moses was a Prophet of God.

Not so with Ken Copeland, Arnold Murray or Jim Jones. They are heretics and corrupt.

Are you saying that God punished 900 people including children and babies for going against Jim Jones?

You do not even have the heart of compassion to even understand the words in the Bible. Get your mind free of that cult defending, man worshipping garbage between your ears and then you might start to have sympathy for the victims of cults.

[truth_child]

absoluty not for jim jones was a lieing hypocrite that died and cause others to die

[turtle]

Nobody today doubts that Moses was a Prophet of God.

Not so with Ken Copeland, Arnold Murray or Jim Jones. They are heretics and corrupt.

Are you saying that God punished 900 people including children and babies for going against Jim Jones?

You do not even have the heart of compassion to even understand the words in the Bible. Get your mind free of that cult defending, man worshipping garbage between your ears and then you might start to have sympathy for the victims of cults.

Franklin Jim jones was a devil, spawn of satan, by spiritual birth no doubt. And yes I am against occults. But to say that churches are cults in the since of Jim jones, everyone of them it is a lie. Occult not cult. Define please.

[truth_child]

jim jone proved by his actiond that he was no a saved person he was a liar and a deceiver and got the due recompense of his actions

[oneway]

Franklin Jim jones was a devil, spawn of satan, by spiritual birth no doubt.


There for a minute, I almost thought you were claiming that Jim Jones was a Kenite, lol. Thankfully you cleared that up right off the bat. For some reason, and I can't quite put my finger on it, when someone speaks about spawns of satan, I think of Kenites. I wonder where I came up with that connection? Don't worry, turtle, I'm just teasing you. I know that you're not an Scer, and I took note of "by spiritual birth no doubt". Well that aint like no Kenite I ever heard of. The Kenites I heard of, they are spawns of satan by physical birth no doubt.

[turtle]

There for a minute, I almost thought you were claiming that Jim Jones was a Kenite, lol. Thankfully you cleared that up right off the bat. For some reason, and I can't quite put my finger on it, when someone speaks about spawns of satan, I think of Kenites. I wonder where I came up with that connection? Don't worry, turtle, I'm just teasing you. I know that you're not an Scer, and I took note of "by spiritual birth no doubt". Well that aint like no Kenite I ever heard of. The Kenites I heard of, they are spawns of satan by physical birth no doubt.

All I am going to say is how can I argue with that. BTW, how did jim jones get into this trinity discussion, are we discussing the Holy Trinity or the devil. Actually all joking aside we sometimes need to let our hair down around here. We get to stiff necked we loose any since of reality. Cult discussion like jim jones or david koresh needs to be discussed, More awareness keeps people from walking into them permitently. I can't spell today i do not think. You know they did a good show on E the other day about cults. More people are informed of what is classified as normal and what is not they can pick up on abuse. And some might say who is it for us to say what is normal, but when kids are involved it is a concern. The different groups having sex with kids or adults feeling like they are threaten if they leave. That is not right. Well enough for now.

Have a great day oneway and enjoy the sunshine.

[truth_child]

there are many news cast and doctomenteries that "expose " "cults" but in reality they are denieing THE WORD OF GOD

[turtle]

there are many news cast and doctomenteries that "expose " "cults" but in reality they are denieing THE WORD OF GOD

TC Christians need to put out a documentary on these things. I mean seriously one that states teh truth about God and the attack of satan on the church. Okay now I said mouthful. Fact is Jim Jones was occult leader in the name of Christianity. In other words he used the word Christian or Jesus, God for what he did. He did not follow after the teaching of the Bible. Yes he showed compassion in the beginning, some say some leaders like this start out good, but truth be known they did not stay that way. Which proves once saved always saved might not be realistic in teaching. People know about some becoming apostate like the apostate church in revelations. Feeling money could solve their problems and not relying on God. Satan thought he was equal or better then God, that is what is happening with some of these groups that think money will solve everything. Satan fell because he thought he was better then God. One must be aware of where the God's authority is and that is at the top of the chain.

[truth_child]

well somebody start it up and i will add my comments

[easeltine]

Hi!

My take on your present discussions:

The Doctrine of the Trinity/Deity of Jesus Christ historically is the primary way Christianity defines whether a church is a cult or not. Central to Christianity is the fact that Jesus Christ is one’s Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ is Lord God, the master of our lives, and one cannot have more than one God and still be a Christian.

That being said there is a wide range of beliefs one can have and not be considered a cult, or out of the realm of basic, or orthodox, Christianity. This was an idea that Dr. Francis Schaefer spoke about while he was alive, and is agreed upon by apologetic cult books, (books that define cults and expose churches that are cults- I use The Kingdom of the Cult and Handbook of Today's Religions).

With this in mind a person could be part of a Word of Faith church and still be saved, since Word of Faith, (Rhema Bible Church), accurately declares the Trinity:

Our God is One, but manifested in three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. http://www.rhemabiblechurch.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=155

What is annoying is the teaching more from the Word of Faith past, (not the present head minister Kenneth W. Hagin Jr. viewpoints), regarding the, “we are little gods ideas.” This little gods idea, the name-it-and-claim-it, and prosperity teaching are false, especially, if one gets the idea that We are little gods and goddesses.

Franklin has seen the worst case scenario of the WOF teachers, where WOF even disassociated with that bad group over 20 years ago. Hank Hanegraaff of CRI has come against the false teachings of WOF, (and other groups), with an incorrect spirit devoid of love. What he has done is not the original intention of the founder of CRI, Dr. Walter Martin, which was to expose people who disagreed with the basic beliefs of orthodox Christianity.

Christians need to remember to practice love when they expose the false teachings of other groups that could be Christians.

[truth_child]

i do not belong to wof but it is surly wrong to teach that you got to give to be blessed
as far as hank is concerned he beleves that just he his family are the only saved one left

[easeltine]

Arron,

You may be more right than you think about Hank. Even the widow and family of the late Dr. Walter Martin, the founder of CRI, are against the ministry of this man.

[truth_child]

i read his book i forget the name now but it was a gainst the pentecostal faith and in fact i counldnt tell what he beleived i wrote him off as a scoffer

[truth_child]

hank is a sensationlist who wants to be something he is not

[praetorian]

reply-test

[truth_child]

hank is a scoffer, he seems to think that he and his family are all that have the true light and are saved. he has anothert hough coming no already here he is dead wrong. there are saved people all over the world all races and denoms.
i beleive in the trinity OF GOD GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST
satan and JESUS wer NOT brothers as some teach there is aliteral butrning , everlasting hell, which some say there isnt but they dont beleive nor take THE WORD OF GOD

[praetorian]

To those on the board:

I found this webpage while browsing and thought I would post the following information here in order to solicit your responses!

I am taking this information from the following page (http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html) and what is worthy of noting is that there seem to be various "Christian Scholars" that readily express that the doctrine of God being Triune (Whether it be Trinity or Oneness) is "not explicitly stated in the Bible." Note that here, I am referring scholars and those that come from “main stream” Christendom!

The webpage refers to it as "Shocking Admissions", from those that are not from the New Way, JW's, Mormons, Islam etc, again and instead, from mainstream Christian faiths. Therefore, it appears that this matter does not appear to be as cut and dry as some here on this board would have you believe! It reminds me of the evolution controversy where you can compare two reputable and equally educated scientists that have two completely different views (one for evolution meaning here in context, that we came from apes or other lower life forms, verses that we did not) and yet take the position that the other one is wrong! However, in that controversy (evolution as life from other forms of lower life) there are issues over what is perceived as facts! However, unlike evolution there are historical documents, and records that provide insight as to when and where such a topic (Triune God, Trinity which gave birth to Oneness) was first used, introduced, meaning, coming to the fore in a historic time line that cannot be denied, any more than actually denying say, the Holocaust, which some do, though it is not reasonable to do so especially in view of the historical evidence and living survivors etc!

Now, on the website page I mentioned above, at the outset, the following names and information are provided, "Trinitarians Roger Olson and Christopher Hall say of the doctrine in their book, "The Trinity:" state, "It is understandable that the importance placed on this doctrine is perplexing to many lay Christians and students. Nowhere is it clearly and unequivocally stated in Scripture. How can it be so important if it is not explicitly stated in Scripture?" (p. 1). "The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the N.T. in the heat of controversy. The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical councils: Nicea (325 A.D.) and Constantinople (381 A.D.)." (p. 1-2)"

Further, "Trinitarian Douglas McCready in his work "He Came Down From Heaven" states: "New Testament scholars disagree whether the N.T. directly calls Jesus God. In terms of first century Judaism, it would be understandable if no N.T. writer described Jesus as God because of the difficulty such language would create for early Christians with a Jewish background... It is important to note that every passage that identifies Jesus as 'theos' can be translated other ways or has variants that read differently" (p. 51). "In biblical Judaism the term 'messiah' did not necessarily carry any connotation of divine status, and Jews of Jesus' day were not expecting their messiah to be other than human." (p. 55). "While some have used the title ('Son of God') to denote Jesus' deity, neither the Judaism nor the paganism of Jesus' day understood the title in this way. Neither did the early church "(p. 56)."

Also, "Writing as a Trinitarian in his best selling book "Christian Doctrine," Prof. Shirley C. Guthrie Jr., makes these strong admissions:" "The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word 'trinity' itself nor such language as 'one-in-three,' 'three-in-one,' one 'essence' (or "substance"), and three 'persons' is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church taken from classical Greek philosophy " (p. 76-77). "But there is an obvious problem here (calling Jesus Lord and Savior) . There is only one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, the Lord and Savior of Israel. If we say that God is really present and at work in Jesus, how can we avoid saying that there are in fact two God's - one 'up in heaven' and one who appeared down here on earth? The N.T. does not solve this problem" (p. 78-79). "The doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible" (p. 80)."

Note, "Trinitarian G.W. Bromiley is quoted in "The Evangelical Dict. of Theology" edited by Walter Elwell, as saying:" ""In the New Testament there is no explicit statement of the doctrine..." (p.1112) "Respected Trinitarian Evangelical Biblical scholar Prof. Charles C. Ryrie, writing in his well known work "Basic Theology" admits:" ""The N.T. contains no explicit statement of the doctrine of the triunity of God (since "these three are one" in I John 5:7 is apparently not a part of the genuine text of Scripture )" (p. 60). "A definition of the Trinity is not easy to construct. Some are done by stating several propositions. Others err on the side of oneness or threeness" (p. 61). "Even with all the discussion and delineation that we attempt in relation to the Trinity, we must acknowledge that it is in the final analysis a mystery" (p. 61). "In the second half of the fourth century , three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity " (p. 65). "But many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals as being clearly taught in the Scripture for which there are no proof texts. The doctrine of the Trinity furnishes the best example of this. It is fair to say that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity . In fact, there is not even one proof text , if by proof text we mean a verse or passage that 'clearly' states that there is one God who exists in three persons" (p. 89). "The above illustrations prove the fallacy of concluding that if something is not proof texted in the Bible we cannot clearly teach the results... If that were so, I could never teach the doctrine of the Trinity or the deity of Christ or the deity of the Holy Spirit "(p. 90)."

And know that there are several others quoted as taking the same position, or admission, such as "Trinitarian Millard J. Erickson, research professor of theology at S.W. Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist)”, "the noted Catholic scholar Graham Greene", Adam Clarke, a Trinitarian Methodist" and other names, however, the point is, that none of these people are coming from the sources from which one would normally expect there to be opposition to the thought of God being Triune!

Therefore I would like some feedback regarding the point I make here, that some of mainstream Christianity clearly and plainly state that the doctrine of God being Triune is not explicitly, plainly expressed or taught in the Bible.

Sincerely.

TonyP

P.S. Please email me to let me know you responded.....at: praetorian_g@hotmail.com

[truth_child]

the trinity is real THERE IS GOD THE FATHER , AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST it is epicitly decalred in the bible if oe wil read it there is the scene ant the baptism OF CHRIST WHEN ALL THREE WERE PRESENT GOD SPOKE SAY LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR IMAGE( not angels ) THE SON PRAYED TO THE FATHER, THE FATHER SENT HIS SON THE SON SENT THE HOLY GHOST and many more instances where the trinty is i the bible. the word trinity is not there but the teachings are

[el cid]

Praetorian, Greetings! I come to help you understand the truth. :)

1. Were you familiar with the Christian Bible, you would be fully aware that Jesus is God. Check out this article on the Web:

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html


2. And Here is the literal translation of the Scripture- John 1:18

18 No one has seen God [Theon] at any time; the only begotten God [Theos] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASU

Here is the same verse in the Greek.

John 1:18
Theón oudeís heoóraken poópote monogenes Theós ho oón eis tón kólpon toú Patrós ekeínos exeegeésato

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

Here is a sound explanation of the greek usage of Theos and Theon:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/greek-2/msg00753.html

It is clear that Scriptures identify Jesus as God. That is more clear that the Apostle John writes that Jesus is the only begotten God of God. This is an absolute statement and irrefutable.


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

PS: Your e-mail did not work for me.

El Cid

[praetorian]

the trinity is real THERE IS GOD THE FATHER , AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST it is epicitly decalred in the bible if oe wil read it there is the scene ant the baptism OF CHRIST WHEN ALL THREE WERE PRESENT GOD SPOKE SAY LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR IMAGE( not angels ) THE SON PRAYED TO THE FATHER, THE FATHER SENT HIS SON THE SON SENT THE HOLY GHOST and many more instances where the trinty is i the bible. the word trinity is not there but the teachings are


TC:

As usual, you always miss the point of the post, and fall back to completely ignoring the post and use your personal opinion, which does nothing to address the post at hand!

Unlike you, I won’t avoid the issue and give my “opinion’s in reply and state; Of course “the Bible” mentions One God, the Father and that he has a Son and also mentions the Holy Spirit, but the Bible never states that they are ALL the same God, this must be inferred as there is NO SCRIPTURE THAT STATES THAT GET IT!!! In fact the Bible tells us several times that Jesus has a God and Father! That is as clear as you can get in English grammar!!!

The fact that the three are mentioned at the Baptism of God’s Son, does not mean nor does it grammatically state that they are THREE PERSONS IN ONE AS the Baptismal text does not state this at all, again, you must infer, interpret something that is NOT CLEARLY AND PLAINLY STATED IN SCRIPTURE!

The Genesis account does not state this either, that there are THREE IN ONE, you must infer this, interpret it as nothing in that accounts states this, and we know that God was probably speaking to (NOT HIMSELF) his first generated (born) Son but note, that there were other spirit sons (according to scripture and you do know this right) present when he created the heavens and the earth!

In the end, this man made pagan teaching is not clearly, explicitly and plainly stated in scripture, one must take the simple words of the Bible and “ADD” to them, by “inferring” what it actually means like with a code and or interpret the words, as you will NOT FIND ONE SCRIPTURE that states this at all!!!

TC, the point of the post was to establish a few things; 1. That there are those within main stream Christianity (few as it may be) that do not accept this teaching and; 2. Admit that it is NOT “clearly or “explicitly” stated in scripture!

And that is the point, I am not saying that your theology and those like you who believe in that theology (teachings of humans) do not teach this or that they cannot find “Inferences” for their beliefs in scripture, but IT IS A FACT THAT THERE IS NO PLACE IN THE BIBLE THAT STATES THIS BELIEF CLEARLY, SIMPLY AND PLAINLY AT ALL!!!

[praetorian]

Praetorian, Greetings! I come to help you understand the truth. :)

1. Were you familiar with the Christian Bible, you would be fully aware that Jesus is God. Check out this article on the Web:

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html


2. And Here is the literal translation of the Scripture- John 1:18

18 No one has seen God [Theon] at any time; the only begotten God [Theos] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASU

Here is the same verse in the Greek.

John 1:18
Theón oudeís heoóraken poópote monogenes Theós ho oón eis tón kólpon toú Patrós ekeínos exeegeésato

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

Here is a sound explanation of the greek usage of Theos and Theon:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/greek-2/msg00753.html

It is clear that Scriptures identify Jesus as God. That is more clear that the Apostle John writes that Jesus is the only begotten God of God. This is an absolute statement and irrefutable.


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

PS: Your e-mail did not work for me.

El Cid


Hi El Cid:

I very much appreciate your response; however, I believe you missed my point which was to establish a few things as stated above in my reply to TC and that is; 1. That there are those within main stream Christianity (few as it may be) that do not accept this teaching and why; 2. The same also admit that it is NOT “clearly or “explicitly” stated in scripture!

Also, I am familiar enough with Holy Scripture to know, that it clearly and plainly expresses that Jesus has a “God and Father” and that no scripture directly calls him God other than by inference!!! The same is true of God being Triune!!!

I have reviewed the webpage here, http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html you referred me to and note that it makes many fundamental mistakes and self serving conclusions.

To point out a few, demonstrating the same, I will quote from that page the following below but first, I quote the most glaring obvious statement on this webpage, that you may have overlooked and that is, one of the subheadings, “Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God” THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE POINT IS OF MY POST!!!!! If you are being honest, then you must admit, that it must be “inferred”, or “implied” as there are no scriptures that state this clearly plainly and simply!!! Now back to the other examples of mistakes and self serving conclusions on this same webpage:

QUOTE:

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

End Quote:

In order to draw this conclusion, one must completely IGNORE what the scriptures themselves state and the remainder of the context of the Book of John. What I mean by this is that at first glance, taking Jesus’ simple and clearly stated words, without considering the context or reading from other scriptures in the Bible, one could easily, reasonably and fairly conclude that Jesus is indeed God!

However in the reply exchange at John 10:30-33, he clearly states that he is God’s Son!!! Also, note Jesus use of the same words, in John Chapter 14 and verse 20, where Jesus states “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” Now, in view of these same simple words of Jesus, we have total and clear clarification, for what Jesus himself expressed in verses 9 and 10 of 14 and also what is meant in John 10:30-33, with simple and clear language (without any outside sources-preconceived ideas and theologies) and without any doubt, we KNOW that his disciples (including us) are not “literally” in or inside Jesus, any more than Jesus is in or inside his Father, (since if they ore you are using this verse to support God Triune or that Jesus is God) but rather, they are, as we are “one” with Jesus, meaning “one” in purpose, and “one” in spirit (Please See 1 Corinthians 6:17) as Jesus is “one” in purpose and in spirit with his Father, but this verse clearly does not mean, or state that God and Jesus are the same person any more than it means that his disciples, nor you and I are Jesus, or in Jesus literally, as one person or being!

The Bible also speaks of a man and woman, that when they get married they become “one-flesh” and yet we know that what this is saying grammatically speaking, that the idea of actually become “one-flesh” is not possible so it must be figurative thus here clearly meaning the same as above, one in purpose!

In the end if you continue to believe in the Trinity, then know that at the very least, if you are being fair, that the scripture quoted above for this, at John 10:30-33, does not state that Jesus is God or God is Jesus in a literal way! It also does not discuss the Holy Spirit here either for the third part of this doctrine!

The second example and quote:

QUOTE:

And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)

END QUOTE:

Nothing in this scripture, again, grammatically speaking, states that Jesus is God, or that God is Jesus and or that he is Triune!

El Cid, the Bible calls many people Lord, and no doubt Jesus is indeed our Lord and Savior, that is incontrovertible, however, he is not the same person as the LORD (all in caps) God represented by the Tetragrammaton, as that is the one whom is called the “God and Father of Jesus.” You do know the scriptures that state this, correct?

I very much appreciate your pointing out the literal word for word, and the Greek for John 1:18, however in doing so, you fundamentally gloss over a critical issue that is NOT addressed in the link you referred me to: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archiv.../msg00753.html, as it is true that in the Greek by itself, “Theon” and “Theos” are the same word in English “God”, thus this not being an issue, I also accept the English and Greek renderings you provide above as they are NOT at issue with what I am about to highlight! Please note that is NOT to say that in Greek, “Ton Theon” and “Theon” or “Theos” and or “Ho Theos” are the same (as Jesus is NEVER referred to that way in Greek) as this page mistakenly falls to an erroneous position based on Coldwell’s Rule that itself, is an invented English Rule for Greek Grammar that not only does not exist in Greek (meaning there is and has never been such a rule of Greek Grammar, he made it up) but it carries with it 15 exceptions, taking away from it being a rule in the first place! If I said, “I before E except after C” you can understand two things; 1. It is a rule in English not Greek, Hebrew etc. and; 2. If I said I before E … had 15 exceptions, it would not be a rule but rather a way to simply spell a word!!!

Now, the terms, or words themselves, “the only begotten God” is literally translated in English as “Only-Generated God” cannot EVER be applied to the “God and Father of Jesus” as he has never been begotten, generated EVER!!!! Thus this alone (though is one of many more) serves to demonstrate that Jesus is not God as he did in fact have a point in life (a beginning-begotten, generated) where he was not only made alive on earth, (born) but also was created, made in life as a spirit Son of God, or God like one, as that is what “only begotten theos” means!

If you have or had a son, it would be absurd to question that he was anything other than HUMAN, in fact like you, like in the image of you and your wife! So, too with Spirit Sons of God, as the Bible speaks of Jesus as the “first” and “only” begotten, but he is NOT the only spirit Son of God as there are many other spirit sons of God according to scripture!!! Thus Jesus is God’s Son which makes him Godlike like your son would be human like!

This next paragraph quote of yours is contradictory, “It is clear that Scriptures identify Jesus as God. That is clearer that the Apostle John writes that Jesus is the only begotten God of God. This is an absolute statement and irrefutable” and I reply; it is the other way around, that it is not clear that the Scriptures identify “Jesus as God” as clearly demonstrated above, (your own webpage) and whereas I can show you scriptures that clearly, plainly and simply state that Jesus has a “God and Father”, that he is also the “Servant” of God, and that God is the “Head” of Jesus! Yes, I agree that the Apostle John does in fact refer to Jesus identity, as to who he is, “the only begotten God” and of God, meaning God had to beget (generate) Jesus in order for this to make sense and conclude that the plain and simple scriptures make incontrovertible statements that do not agree with your view that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!

The scriptures also make it clear that the other spirit sons of God who later rebelled and became Demons, clearly knew who Jesus was, and that Jesus was not God, but the Son of God, note Mark 3:10,11, Mark 5:6, 7 and Luke 4:41. Also the Apostles clearly knew who Jesus was, as stated at John 1:49 and further note how this same question-issue is dealt with directly on point at Matthew 16:13-17, and also at Mark 14:61, 62, where Jesus did not cower on who he was and is! Luke 1:32 tells you that not God, but his Son is the one that was born on the earth!

El Cid, your beliefs simply have too many direct and simply plainly stated words that do not allow you to arrive at your beliefs!

Sir, If I said to you that “El Cid was the Son of Don Quixote”, you would readily understand, grammatically speaking what this is saying, however it is you and folks like you that take this same phrase and add Star Trek, Jabba the Hut etc into the equation when what I express about El Cid and Don Quixote is clear! Note, I said clear in this example not that factually speaking this is NOT an accurate statement, however, it does go to show that when the Bible calls Jesus the “Son of God” that it takes a sort of mental dyslexia, combo word substitution to get to “God the Son” which again is a far cry from the simple words telling us that Jesus is the “Son of God!”

TonyP

P.S. My email at praetorian_g@hotmail.com, has a underscore inbetween the “n and the g. that does not show due to the underlining.

[el cid]

Praetorian, I'm not a rude person, but the best I can say about your reply is that you are detached from reality.

The fact that Jesus was begotten does not mean that He had come into existence at that time. It means that He was begotten from a woman. As God, Jesus entered the world as a human baby, making him the only begotten God' and spent the rest of His life on earth living within the physical limitations that any human would have, facing the same temptations and weaknesses that any human would go through. Yet He did not sin, but He kept the entire Mosaic Law, thereby fulfilling it. And though fulfilling the whole LAW, He was crucified in our place for our sins. His blood is the covering for our sins. God himself, the unblemished lamb.

And through Jesus, God nullfied the Mosaic Covenant along with its' Law that condemned everyone. This is why Paul said that the Mosaic Law useless and worthless, it could not save anyone.

John 1:18 declares that Jesus is the only Begotten God. To deny Jesus is God is to call God, Father and Son, a liar, and the truth is not in you.

You have been blinded by the Watchtower Society, and you read the Bible through the filtered glasses of their publications.

Jesus is not called a son in John 1:18, He is called the 'only begotten God'. I know your special Watchtower glasses blinds you to this simple straightforward fact. Jesus is called God in this verse and your denial will not save you, but it will condemn you.

[truth_child]

amen elcid

[oneway]

Jesus is not called a son in John 1:18, He is called the 'only begotten God'.

I do have to wonder where you came up with He is called the 'only begotten God' in John 1:18?. The Greek word for Son in that verse is:

5207 // uiov // huios // hwee-os' //

apparently a primary word; TDNT - 8:334,1206; n m

AV - son(s) 85, Son of Man + 444 87 (TDNT - 8:400, 1210),
Son of God + 2316 49, child(ren) 49, Son 42, his Son + 848 21,
Son of David + 1138 15 (TDNT - 8:478, 1210),
my beloved Son + 27 + 3350 7, thy Son + 4575 5,
only begotten Son + 3339 3, his (David's) son + 846 3,
firstborn son + 4316 2, misc 14; 382

This is the condensed version of the defs.


If my calculations are correct, that same Greek word is used at least 6 times in that Ch.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called
Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write,
Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending
and descending upon the Son of man.

Look at verse 34 for instance. Same Greek word. How would that make sense if the verse read like this?
1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the "God" of God.

Not only that, if Son in verse 18 meant God, then why wasn't #2316 // yeov // theos // theh'-os // used instead?

[dobman53]

Truth child,,, el_cid

Both of you together added up equals to knowing very little.

When Jesus said he didn't come to do his will, but his fathers who sent him. What's-up??

When Jesus said not even he know's the hour, but only the father. Whats-up??

Sin had a price to be paid. When God offered up his son the price was paid in full.

On the great white thrown judgement day, Jesus will sit at Gods right hand.

God and Jesus are joined in one spirit. They don't debate about what's right and wrong. Their can only be one God. When you see Gods son your seeing the same authority, as Jesus has done what his father has willed since the inception of time.

After the wedding feast Jesus brings us to Gods presense. God wipes away every tear, death and sin are tossed in the lake of fire. God is there seated upon his thrown to be once again amongst his ancients to rule in glory.

The first world age when Satan launched his atack.
The second world age of redemtion through Christ.
the third world age where sin and death are no more.

Could you say this is a trinity?? Three acts in time, though there not one lone act.

As in your takes of trinity as being devine. Three seperate devinities as close as possible, not one but three. The oneness being Gods will.

God is the only father, and there is no other. PERIOD!!

TC(1)....EC(2)....little knowledge(3)....Add it all up equals 3... Your now a trinity.... 2 together for one uninformed will.

Dob!!

[truth_child]

one way you just answered your question where do you come up with the only begotten SON. it says it there in the verse you quoted

[praetorian]

Dear El Cid:

I appreciate your opening, and know that I do not take offence, so long as you can take what you dish out! What a coincidence! I feel the same way about you and those like you! Thus, my opinion is as good as yours unless you feel differently, and again feelings and opinions vary but the scriptures are available to make things right! The difference between us: I believe what is plainly stated in the Bible and you do not! I notice that you completely ignore the points mentioned in my post that contained clear and concise scriptures that are easy to understand! Why? Not dealing with them does not make them go away or make your opinion more correct!

Sir, your discussion of Jesus being begotten as applying only to when he was born on earth is absurd and does not make sense as Jesus was not the “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON/GOD” of Mary, as Mary had several other children and FYI: none of them were God’s either! And to being the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God, meaning of his God and Father, means, that Jesus had a pre-human existence! I trust you know the scriptures that verify this, such as found at Micah 5:2, about God’s Son being born on earth, specifically in one the two Bethlehem’s (since there were two Bethlehem’s) that states, (Micah 5:2-NIV) “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times” or as the NASB puts it, “…His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity” or as stated in the English Standard Version, “…whose coming forth is from of old,
from ancient days.”

And also note Proverbs 30:4, (NIV) “Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!” Thus, the Messiah, Jesus Christ was one that had a previous life in Heaven! Jesus himself admitted that he existed before he was born on earth at John 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42 and also 58! NOTE: With reference to verse 58, Jesus did not here state that he was the “I AM” to be matched in Exodus, as such an expression “I AM” DOES NOT EXIST IN THE “OT” IT IS MADE UP TO FIT DOGMA, CREEDS AND THEOLOGY!

Thus, when Jesus was created, came into existence, made, or generated, (whatever word you want to use) the one who brought him forth was God, who is Jesus’ “God and Father!” That is why at Colossians 1:15 it states that Jesus is the “first born of all creation” (NASB) some other Bible’s state, “first born over all creation” which while true, is more accurately stated in the NASB which is directly in line with the Greek, showing he was simply the first spirit being-creature, (a Godlike one) God created, before creating all other spirit beings-creatures of God!

You’re mentioning Jesus keeping the Mosaic law perfectly, while true does nothing to support your views of Jesus being God and that God is Triune let alone reply to my post! The other things you mention about Jesus again, have nothing to do with the discussion at hand, where you ignored the scriptures posted in my reply to your post (not to mention your completely ignoring my original post) that clearly contradict your position that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!

Your statement here; “John 1:18 declares that Jesus is the only Begotten God. To deny Jesus is God is to call God, Father and Son, a liar, and the truth is not in you” IS NOT WHAT I DID OR DO, with the first sentence quoted here, however the remainder is pure “opinion” as it completely IGNORES the scriptures that first do not tell us this, but must be inferred and also the scriptures that plainly tell us the identify of Jesus as the “Son of God”, and as well, where Jesus himself, confirms he is “the Son of God”, and the fact that no where in the Bible does it state that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!

Now here you truly show your ignorance; “You have been blinded by the Watchtower Society, and you read the Bible through the filtered glasses of their publications” and reply; show me where I quoted and or used Watchtower publications or their Bible in any of these posts! Sir, deal with the issues, if I am wrong, show me, not with your “feelings” and or “opinions” but show me in “SCRIPTURE” like I have shown you!!! You can throw the Watchtower out the window as it has nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with this discussion at all! Tell me, when I referred you and others to the site in my post, did you notice, that this was from those of “mainstream Christendom”, and did you further notice there were NO JW’s QUOTED???

I agree that Jesus is called “only begotten God” and mention that other manuscripts refer to him as “only begotten Son” as well, and that this does not alter anything expressed in this verse!

Your ignorance continues to show when you completely IGNORE the scriptures cited and the information provided showing that the matter of the Trinity is NOT scriptural, and note again, that this site here is NOT A JW SITE (so who is wearing the blinds here?): (http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html)

Now again, I am not arguing or stating that “Jesus is called God in this verse” referring to John 1:18, but correct you by stating he is called “ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD” which is NOT THE SAME being called “GOD” (BE REAL HERE) as his God and Father the Almighty God, was the one who BEGOT him, and; Almighty God clearly cannot be spoken of as being “BEGOTTEN” EVER!!! Please be reasonable and take your feelings and emotions out of this! Jesus is clearly God’s Son, therefore he is like his Father and is a God, but he is not Almighty God, who is referred to in the Bible as the “God and Father of Jesus” meaning, they are not the same nor are they TRIUNE! Thus, I am not denying anything that is stated in the Bible, (I am denying dogma, creeds, theologies-the teachings of humans) rather “I AM” denying and denouncing your belief that Jesus is his own “God and Father” when he has a “God and Father” (they are NOT THE SAME) and that GOD is NOT TRIUNE as the scriptures do not tell us this, but man’s (humans) teachings do!

I conclude by stating, simply put, the difference between us is: You believe in what is not clearly explicitly stated in scripture, but rather, what can be inferred and implied, while I choose to believe what is clearly and explicitly stated in the Bible as my beliefs are taken from the Bible and I have proved it in there posts!!!! Please think about this as this small paragraph contains profound implications that is worthy of repeating and pondering! You are staking your life and the life of your family on these inferences and implications! I respectfully and strongly submit that this does not work in any discipline of life (inference verses written instructions) let alone one that involves our most sacred worship of God!

Deal with the issues and not how you FEEL!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

amen elcid

TC:

Your Amen is based purely on feelings and opinions while ignoring scriptures I quote inspired of God!!!

Speaking frankly, what you El Cid and others are doing is obvious; you are taking the parts of the Bible that help support your position ONLY, while plainly IGNORING the other parts (scriptures) that contradict and then make as if they do not exist, (forgetting history etc and common sense as well) while finding other(s) (scriptures) that tend to do the same-RINSE LATHER AND REPEAT! That is NOT what I do or have done at all, as nothing I have shown you in scripture, even while replying to your scriptures, and posts, contradicts with anything I have pointed out to you in the Bible about Jesus having a “God and Father!!!” Folks, the Bible interprets itself, but you insist on using theology-mans doctrines and teachings instead and then take the position that “it is from the Bible”, rather than to rely solely on what God actually expresses ALONE, via the use of simple words! I remind you that this is what the Jews did and killed Jesus over and most of Christendom does this as well! (Matthew 7:14-14, and 21-23).

TonyP

[praetorian]

Dear Oneway:

It has been a while, hoping all is well with your and yours!

The fact is, that while most Bibles at John 1:18, state “only begotten Son” some like the NASB, state “only begotten God.” The NKJV-New King James Version states “Son” but in the footnote states “NU Text reads only begotten God.”

The reason for this is simple, “most” of later Greek extant manuscripts use “Son”, however, most of the older ones use “God” at this verse! A quick search on the internet allowed me to find three references below that make this point though in a more meaningful manner, stating that “earlier” manuscripts clearly use “God”, while those that came later use “Son” note below:

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=1&verse=18#Joh1_18

I take from the above link the following below:

QUOTE:

“The only begotten Son ...The oldest and most reliable manuscripts of this Gospel read "only begotten God" in this passage, and it should be so translated. F31 Tenney declared that "The evidence for ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD is so strong as to be practically conclusive ... ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD makes an unequivocal affirmation of the deity of Christ." F32 Archaeological evidence continues to strengthen the preference for ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD in this place. Frank Pack, in a critical study of Papyrus Bodmer II, P66, writing in 1960, stated…” and continues from here. (Underlining and bold added)

End Quote.

I now provide you here below with two other links, the main web page and then the page for information I quote from:

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm, and also,

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm#foot12

Quote:

“12 [18] The only Son, God: while the vast majority of later textual witnesses have another reading, "the Son, the only one" or "the only Son," the translation above follows the best and earliest manuscripts, monogenes theos, but takes the first term to mean not just "Only One" but to include a filial relationship with the Father, as at Luke 9:38 ("only child") or Hebrews 11:17 ("only son") and as translated at John 1:14. The Logos is thus "only Son" and God but not Father/God.”

End Quote

The last reference is one referring to Bruce Metzger

http://www.bible-researcher.com/john1.18.html

Thus, using these as a quick reference, we can assert that God was used in the older and or as represented “most reliable manuscripts” use God and not Son.
I have in my personal library, copies of Marshall’s which uses “God” here and one you can get for fee online at www.scripture4all.org, also uses “God” while I have the one by Jay P. Green-Hendrickson,, that uses “Son.”

I hope this helps!

TonyP

[praetorian]

As an aside to Dobman53:

One of the many crystal clear scriptural accounts that mentions all three, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is the one found at Acts 7:55 and 56 which states in the NIV, “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God”; Please folks, it cannot get any clearer than this, grammatically speaking! It is theology, that has you leave what is simply, clearly and plainly expressed here, to then take it into the various theories of how God is Triune etc., when that is NOT what the Bible nor this verse states at all!!!! Please reason on this!!!

Note too, how this verse explains, that when Stephen was or became “full of Holy Spirit”, (not full of God or a God) that it caused him to SEE into Heaven, thus, it empowered and or allowed him to do something and that was: To see in Heaven, God and his Son Jesus at God’s Right Hand! You can twist this, add to it, and interpret it, any which way you want, as this is your right, BUT IT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE PLAINLY, CLEARLY AND SIMPLY, and GRAMMATICALLY SPEAKING STATES!!!

TonyP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Come, Mr. Praetorian, no one in their right mind accepts the Jehovah's Witnessess teaching of oneness. Try reading a good Bible and leave the hereies of the New World Translation at home.

[dobman53]

TATM:

I was once a JW.

The main reason for my leaving was from the many Revelation's translation's, and other issues dealing with end time prophesies. I became consumed with the searching for such knowledge. Though through it all the eldest of our elder's came to my house every tuesday for 15 years while I never once set foot in the Kingdom hall again.

These men are not fulls, as me and George very well knew, all was what it was because we simply loved one another.

TATM your interests have been more in line with the studing of past saints. Should you have invested half that time towards the study of the Bible you would never say such things as you do.

Dob!!

[praetorian]

Come, Mr. Praetorian, no one in their right mind accepts the Jehovah's Witnessess teaching of oneness. Try reading a good Bible and leave the hereies of the New World Translation at home.


Hello TATM:

JW's do not believe in Oneness!

As to whether or not on one accepts what JW’s believe is NOT at issue here and nor do I care! When I post, I do using the Bible scriptures ONLY and NON JW sites! Search and see, and you will find that I never quote or refer to the NWT, EVER unless specifically asked to address a reply! Did you actually read my posts?

It would be nice to actually have you not avoid what is posted above, in order to see what you and or others have to express about it, FROM THE BIBLE and NOT with their feelings or opinions!

How’s this for a novel idea! Why don’t you try and reply to the posts above specifically, and let me know scripturally speaking why it is wrong!

TonyP

Wow please drink you coffee first before you reply next time as I did not do this on the Twilight Zone but on FACTNET!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Here is an opportunity for you Mr. Tonyp, address the many murderers being protected by your religion.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

I was once a JW.

The main reason for my leaving was from the many Revelation's translation's, and other issues dealing with end time prophesies. I became consumed with the searching for such knowledge. Though through it all the eldest of our elder's came to my house every tuesday for 15 years while I never once set foot in the Kingdom hall again.

These men are not fulls, as me and George very well knew, all was what it was because we simply loved one another.

TATM your interests have been more in line with the studing of past saints. Should you have invested half that time towards the study of the Bible you would never say such things as you do.

Dob!!

I stand in the hedge to correct so excellent a one as yourself. Your saint ain't. That is, your saint ain't a saint, nor is he in the past. I saw through his hogwash quicker than lightening.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I read more of your http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archiv.../msg00753.html, than you 404 FILE NOT FOUND did.

[praetorian]

I read more of your , than you did.

Duh! You opened another link that I did not refer you too! Try it again for a door prize! IT helps to either open it where it is above, or copy and paste it correctly!

This may be part of your problem, reading what isn't really there! LOL

TonyP

[praetorian]

Here is an opportunity for you Mr. Tonyp, address the many murderers being protected by your religion.

Not sure what you mean but have at it, as I am not a mind reader, so please clarify your position and while you are at it, how about opening a separate string (board ethics) under that topic “murder” etc., as it is crystal clear you know NOT what you speak about here!!!

“How to Avoid a Topic” is a good string title too!

TonyP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Hilariously, I did some quick research on an article used to support the false concept of oneness. The commentary cited was written by a Church of Christ author and elder. The Church of Christ was founded by Alexander Campbell after receiving a vision from God. Mr. Campbell claimed God chose him as the saviour of modern man. It seems Mr. Campbell believed God cut off Jesus Christ in the second century. But not to be outdone, several well-known religions had their start from Campbell's "Gospel Restoration Revival."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the first to come to mind. After attending a Campbell revival meeting, Joseph Smith got religion. His death son showed him to the "Golden Tablets" from which we get the Book of Mormons. After the sudden death of Joseph Smith, that religion was taken over by Brigham Young. In one of his sermons, Mr. Young claimed Adam lived long enough to become God and as God, he could marry as many women as he chose. Mr. Young went on to declare than Jesus was the illegimate byproduct of a polygamous relationship between Adam God and Mary.

Ellen White, of the Adventist Movement was another of those who attended Campbell's revivals. She believed Jesus Christ was the created being, Michael the archangel. Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, was another regular at Campbell's revivals. Russell or daddy as he was known, denied the deity of Jesus Christ. Russell's vision from God told us that if we measured the below ground chamber of the great pryamid, we could ascertain the end of the world. After several fruitless tries, Russell finally died. After his death, that religion changed Russell's vision to the 144,000 witnesses theory.

Both pentecostalism and Sheperd's Chapel promote a oneness theory based on a vision from their leaders. Hilarious, ain't it?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Hi El Cid:



: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archiv.../msg00753.html,






TonyP

P.S. My email at praetorian_g@hotmail.com, has a underscore inbetween the “n and the g. that does not show due to the underlining.


Do you know the difference in a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Not sure what you mean but have at it, as I am not a mind reader, so please clarify your position and while you are at it, how about opening a separate string (board ethics) under that topic “murder” etc., as it is crystal clear you know NOT what you speak about here!!!

“How to Avoid a Topic” is a good string title too!

TonyP

I learned a long time ago to follow your example.

[dobman53]

TATM:

Are you lost in your own smoke again??

Oneness this and oneness that??

Click on some site and see some crazy not found stuff.

TATM you just don't seem to get it. You get all kinds of interested in your Religeous history books, and yes should any of us have a question about Frier Tuck you'd be the first one any of us would go to. Yet some how you equate such lesson's to having bases in Biblical understandings. I mean who cares what year it was when some bishop stubed his toe.

Has it ever dawned on you when ever you confront someone who has a base from which to draw Biblical understandings from you always come up short handed. The reason is TATM such bases require years to develope. There are no miraculous gifts of understandings being handed out.

Save yourself the effort if alls your reply will be is another 10 word post of self admiration spelled out in mystical whit.

TATM I'm sorry in having to inform you of this. But leaving such posts has never once impressed anyone.

look I know something far better about you. Your far from anything even closley resembeling a bad spirited man. You love God just as much as me or anybody else. I certainly don't agree with my friends 100% all the time. When it gets down to it, the devisions we all seem to seek why none of us could come close to anyones expectations of out right total agreement.

My faults are known by many. This I've had to except for most of my adult life. As before hand I wasn't even aware of such things.

But just the same, they should never have allow one legged men to enter an a$$ kicking contests. You catch my drift TATM??

all is well.

Dob!!

PS...TATM can your old buddy Dob get wound up or what?? Don't worry TATM cause I still love ya!!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

Are you lost in your own smoke again??

Oneness this and oneness that??

Click on some site and see some crazy not found stuff.

TATM you just don't seem to get it. You get all kinds of interested in your Religeous history books, and yes should any of us have a question about Frier Tuck you'd be the first one any of us would go to. Yet some how you equate such lesson's to having bases in Biblical understandings. I mean who cares what year it was when some bishop stubed his toe.

Has it ever dawned on you when ever you confront someone who has a base from which to draw Biblical understandings from you always come up short handed. The reason is TATM such bases require years to develope. There are no miraculous gifts of understandings being handed out.

Save yourself the effort if alls your reply will be is another 10 word post of self admiration spelled out in mystical whit.

TATM I'm sorry in having to inform you of this. But leaving such posts has never once impressed anyone.

look I know something far better about you. Your far from anything even closley resembeling a bad spirited man. You love God just as much as me or anybody else. I certainly don't agree with my friends 100% all the time. When it gets down to it, the devisions we all seem to seek why none of us could come close to anyones expectations of out right total agreement.

My faults are known by many. This I've had to except for most of my adult life. As before hand I wasn't even aware of such things.

But just the same, they should never have allow one legged men to enter an a$$ kicking contests. You catch my drift TATM??

all is well.

Dob!!

PS...TATM can your old buddy Dob get wound up or what?? Don't worry TATM cause I still love ya!!

Fault? The only fault you have Mr. Doberman is being perfectly smart. AH! by the by, I have no idea who the Friar Tuck, you refer to, is.

[el cid]

Not only that, if Son in verse 18 meant God, then why wasn't #2316 // yeov // theos // theh'-os // used instead?

Theos is used, the word in greek is 'Theos'. This is why I use the New American Standard Bible or the New American Standard Bible, they gives the literal translation from the Greek.

2. And Here is the literal translation of the Scripture- John 1:18

18 No one has seen God [Theon] at any time; the only begotten God [Theos] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASU

AND, Here is the same verse in the Greek.

John 1:18
Theón oudeís heoóraken poópote monogenes Theós ho oón eis tón kólpon toú Patrós ekeínos exeegeésato

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

Case closed! Oneway, you obviously were unaware of the truth, Now you have no excuse.

As for the Bibles you quoted that use the word 'Son', back then everyone understood that Jesus was God, part of the Trinity. They used the word 'Son' in lieu of God to make the verse consonant with 1 John 1:1.

[el cid]

EVIDENCE OF JESUS'S DEITY AND UNITY WITH THE FATHER!

The same Jesus said He and the Father are ONE! When Phillip asks Jesus to " show me the Father." Jesus answers:

"Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

Who among us can make that claim.

Jesus is Equal to the Father in His Divine nature, Divine Essence, Divine attributes, in His Divine Character.

Jesus is subordinate to the Father in His human nature, human function, human office, in His human position.

The disciples attests to Jesus's divine nature, assigning to Jesus traits that are reserved for God. Jesus is called:

1. Jesus is called 1st & the last: Rev 1.17, 2:8. 22:13.
2. Jesus is 'The true light': John 1:9
3. Jesus is called what YHWH is called in the OT - 'Rock' or Stone': 1 Cor 10:4, 1 Peter 2:6-8, Psalms 18:2, Pslams 95:1
4. Jesus is the Bridegroom: Eph 5:28-33, Rev 21:2
5. Jesus is The chief Shepherd: 1 Peter 2:6-8
6. Jesus is called The Great Shephard: Heb 13:20
7. The OT Role of Redeemer: Ps 130:7 Hosea 13:14 Is given to Jesus in the NT: Titus 2:13, Rev 5:9
8. Jesus is the forgiver of sins: Acts 5:31, Col 3:13, Ps 130:4, Jer 31:34
9. Jesus is the Saviour of the world: John 4:42, Isa 43:3
10. Apostle Paul writes: "Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead."

All of the above traits assigned to Jesus in the NT are strictly unique to Jehovah in the OT.

Jesus disciples attribute Powers of God to Jesus. Jesus raises the dead, forgives sins, and Jesus is the primary agent in Creating (John 1:2 and 11:38-34, and Jesus sustaining the universe (COl 1:17).

Thomas Called Jesus "My Lord and My God" (John 20:28)

The demons submitted to Jesus's commands in several verses of the NT. And the Angels worshipped Jesus (Rev 22:8-9). Only God can receive worship.

The above is from Doctor Norman L Geisler's 'Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics.

I could go on and on about Jesus's Deity, but the most obvious scripture declaring Jesus's Deity is 1 John 1:18 where Jesus is clearly called "The only begotten God". Scripture can not be broken.

Elohim, a name for our God, is plural. See:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Elohim/elohim.html

[el cid]

Truth child,,, el_cid

Both of you together added up equals to knowing very little.

2 Cor 10:17-18
But HE WHO BOASTS IS TO BOAST IN THE LORD. For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends. NASU


When Jesus said he didn't come to do his will, but his fathers who sent him. What's-up??

Read Psalm 2. Also Jesus was sent by the Father to fulfill the Mosaic Covenant by keeping the all of the Law of Moses, that God may cancel the Mosaic Covenant with its' Laws that no man was capable of keeping except Jesus.

Sin had a price to be paid. When God offered up his son the price was paid in full.

Yes, but only for those who come to Jesus and fully acknowledge and accept this gift from God.

On the great white thrown judgement day, Jesus will sit at Gods right hand.

It is Jesus who will judge the living and the dead. 2 Timothy 4:1

God and Jesus are joined in one spirit. They don't debate about what's right and wrong. Their can only be one God. When you see Gods son your seeing the same authority, as Jesus has done what his father has willed since the inception of time.

Yes.

When Jesus said not even he know's the hour, but only the father. Whats-up?

After the wedding feast Jesus brings us to Gods presence. God wipes away every tear, death and sin are tossed in the lake of fire. God is there seated upon his thrown to be once again amongst his ancients to rule in glory.

I can significantly expand on this, about our marriage to the Lamb, Jesus.

Jesus is the Bridegroom:

John 3:25-30
Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John's disciples with a Jew about purification. And they came to John and said to him, " Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him." John answered and said, " A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven. "You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, ' I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.' "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. "He must increase, but I must decrease. NASU

True Christians are the Bride. i.e.

Rev 19:7-8

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
NASU

Matt 25:1-13
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. "Later the other virgins also came, saying, ' Lord, lord, open up for us.' "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' " Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.
NASU

This parable of the ten virgins is difficult to understand unless you hear it with the understanding of 1st century Jews concerning their marital customs:

If the marriage was not an arranged marriage from infancy, the way for a man to obtain a bride can be done in 3 possible ways: the man's father could make arrangements for his son; an agent working on behalf of the father can make the arrangements; or the would be Bridegroom can make his own arrangements.

Once the arrangements are made with the potential bride-to-be's family, the two families gather at her father's home. The potential groom-to-be takes three things with him: a large sum of money to purchase his wife, a betrothal contract, and a skin of wine. The Bridegroom then meets with the bride's father/brothers and he shows them the betrothal contract, a glass of wine is poured out, and he then negotiates a price to be paid for the bride. If an agreement is reached, the bride is called in. The potential bridegroom drinks of the cup and offers it to her, if she agrees then she drinks of the cup of the wine, and in so doing she has made the marriage contract binding. They are legally married at this point and their union can only be dissolved by divorce. Their relationship at this point is that of betrothed, Bridegroom and Bride, yet not that of fully married.

The groom then announces that he will he will go to his father's house to prepare a place for her. He returns to his father's house to build the chamber and honeymoon bed. The room is made beautiful and provided with every comfort. If the groom is asked when the room will be ready, his answer would be "no one knows except my father." This is because by custom, the father has to be satisfied that everything was just right before he gave his permission to the son to go get his bride.

The bride, having been bought with a price and having accepted the bridegroom's offer of betrothal, must spend time preparing to live as wife. Her days in waiting for her husband are spent in learning how to please her husband.

The groom enlists two close friends to assist him in securing his bride and to assist during the actual ceremony. Jewish custom calls these two "The friends of the bridegroom". They also function as the two witnesses required for a Jewish wedding. On the day when all preparations for the ceremony are ready, one of the two 'friends of the bridegroom' is sent to assist the bride and bring her to the ceremony. The other is stationed with the bridegroom.

At the wedding ceremony, the groom and bride sign a new contract, the Ketubah, which is witnessed by his 'friends', it contains his promises to the bride.

During Passover celebration, the Jews drank of the cup of wine four times; twice before the meal and twice after the meal. During the Jewish Seder, these cups of wine symbolize the unfolding drama of G-d's redemption of His people:

Cup 1. I will bring you out of Egypt.
Cup 2. I will deliver you from Bondage.
Cup 3. I will redeem you with an outstretched arm.
cup 4. I will take you to Me for my people.

The first two cups are drank before the meal, the last two after the passover Meal.

Yeshua, drinking from the cup of wine the third time, indicated that He will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of G-d comes and He drinks it with us in His Fathers Kingdom. That week, on the cross with outstretched arms, He redeemed us.

Matt 26:27-29
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
NASU

IMO, It is at this time that Yeshua will drink from the fourth cup, in His Father's Kingdom, and all Christians will be present.

[oneway]

Theos is used, the word in greek is 'Theos'. This is why I use the New American Standard Bible or the New American Standard Bible, they gives the literal translation from the Greek.

2. And Here is the literal translation of the Scripture- John 1:18

18 No one has seen God [Theon] at any time; the only begotten God [Theos] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASU

AND, Here is the same verse in the Greek.

John 1:18
Theón oudeís heoóraken poópote monogenes Theós ho oón eis tón kólpon toú Patrós ekeínos exeegeésato

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

Case closed! Oneway, you obviously were unaware of the truth, Now you have no excuse.

As for the Bibles you quoted that use the word 'Son', back then everyone understood that Jesus was God, part of the Trinity. They used the word 'Son' in lieu of God to make the verse consonant with 1 John 1:1.



Hi el cid. You are indeed correct. I checked out http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm, and theos was used. I guess I should have went there first.

This is where I checked before I made my post to you.

http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/john_1.shtml

If you check out verse 18 at the link, the Greek word used was not theos. Nevertheless, perhaps you can understand where my misunderstanding was coming from. Do you have any idea why this link would use the wrong Greek word for Son? BTW, I know nothing about this site. I only use it for their online Strong's concordance. I used to use http://www.blueletterbible.org/search.html, but this part of the site no longer functions in any of my browsers. Probably because I use older browsers that are not compatable with the new code they apparently started using.

I would like to make one more point, just so you don't misunderstand me. Jesus is indeed God. This is no new revelation to me. I've been knowing this for at least 30 yrs, and I still know it.:)

[praetorian]

Hilariously, I did some quick research on an article used to support the false concept of oneness. The commentary cited was written by a Church of Christ author and elder. The Church of Christ was founded by Alexander Campbell after receiving a vision from God. Mr. Campbell claimed God chose him as the saviour of modern man. It seems Mr. Campbell believed God cut off Jesus Christ in the second century. But not to be outdone, several well-known religions had their start from Campbell's "Gospel Restoration Revival."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the first to come to mind. After attending a Campbell revival meeting, Joseph Smith got religion. His death son showed him to the "Golden Tablets" from which we get the Book of Mormons. After the sudden death of Joseph Smith, that religion was taken over by Brigham Young. In one of his sermons, Mr. Young claimed Adam lived long enough to become God and as God, he could marry as many women as he chose. Mr. Young went on to declare than Jesus was the illegimate byproduct of a polygamous relationship between Adam God and Mary.

Ellen White, of the Adventist Movement was another of those who attended Campbell's revivals. She believed Jesus Christ was the created being, Michael the archangel. Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, was another regular at Campbell's revivals. Russell or daddy as he was known, denied the deity of Jesus Christ. Russell's vision from God told us that if we measured the below ground chamber of the great pryamid, we could ascertain the end of the world. After several fruitless tries, Russell finally died. After his death, that religion changed Russell's vision to the 144,000 witnesses theory.

Both pentecostalism and Sheperd's Chapel promote a oneness theory based on a vision from their leaders. Hilarious, ain't it?

Hi TATM:

Once again, instead of addressing the post as to what is wrong, scriptural speaking, you instead discuss the Church of Christ-Campbell; the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints-Smith; Ellen White of the Adventist Movement and the JW-Russell; stay with me now JIMBO, stay with me: I don’t care what you express about these folks as IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POST, WHICH USED A BASIS FOR THE POINTS-ISSUES MADE THAT CAME FROM MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANITY NONE OF WHICH ARE THE FOLKS MENTIONED ABOVE!!!!!

Now, separate to this, whatever movement of Christianity you point to, starting with the Protestant Reformation, you will always have men and or women that caused this to take place, thus any religion you point to, will have a MAN or WOMAN that originated it! And the reason behind this is that we ourselves are HUMAN unless you are from another planet!!!!

As to it being Halarios or not, what does this have to do with the price of bananas? In other words, what does this have to do with the POSTS made here on the Trinty?

HELLO!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Do you know the difference in a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness?

A JW is a Christian. Duh! Granted not one you agree with but a Christian none the less!

TonyP

[praetorian]

I learned a long time ago to follow your example.

TATM

Feel free to address this challenge for all on this board to read!!!

Show me, and all here, where I have NOT addressed a matter specifically on point, NOTE I did not state show me where you FEEL I am wrong, but where I fail to address and or inadvertently miss doing so!

TATM, didn’t your parents teach you, that just because you say it is so, it does not mean it is so!

I would really like to see you complete this challenge as saying so and or ignoring it, only means you are not telling the truth!

Here is your opportunity to PROVE ME WRONG!

TonyP

[praetorian]

EVIDENCE OF JESUS'S DEITY AND UNITY WITH THE FATHER!

The same Jesus said He and the Father are ONE! When Phillip asks Jesus to " show me the Father." Jesus answers:

"Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

Who among us can make that claim.

Jesus is Equal to the Father in His Divine nature, Divine Essence, Divine attributes, in His Divine Character.

Jesus is subordinate to the Father in His human nature, human function, human office, in His human position.

The disciples attests to Jesus's divine nature, assigning to Jesus traits that are reserved for God. Jesus is called:

1. Jesus is called 1st & the last: Rev 1.17, 2:8. 22:13.
2. Jesus is 'The true light': John 1:9
3. Jesus is called what YHWH is called in the OT - 'Rock' or Stone': 1 Cor 10:4, 1 Peter 2:6-8, Psalms 18:2, Pslams 95:1
4. Jesus is the Bridegroom: Eph 5:28-33, Rev 21:2
5. Jesus is The chief Shepherd: 1 Peter 2:6-8
6. Jesus is called The Great Shephard: Heb 13:20
7. The OT Role of Redeemer: Ps 130:7 Hosea 13:14 Is given to Jesus in the NT: Titus 2:13, Rev 5:9
8. Jesus is the forgiver of sins: Acts 5:31, Col 3:13, Ps 130:4, Jer 31:34
9. Jesus is the Saviour of the world: John 4:42, Isa 43:3
10. Apostle Paul writes: "Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead."

All of the above traits assigned to Jesus in the NT are strictly unique to Jehovah in the OT.

Jesus disciples attribute Powers of God to Jesus. Jesus raises the dead, forgives sins, and Jesus is the primary agent in Creating (John 1:2 and 11:38-34, and Jesus sustaining the universe (COl 1:17).

Thomas Called Jesus "My Lord and My God" (John 20:28)

The demons submitted to Jesus's commands in several verses of the NT. And the Angels worshipped Jesus (Rev 22:8-9). Only God can receive worship.

The above is from Doctor Norman L Geisler's 'Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics.

I could go on and on about Jesus's Deity, but the most obvious scripture declaring Jesus's Deity is 1 John 1:18 where Jesus is clearly called "The only begotten God". Scripture can not be broken.

Elohim, a name for our God, is plural. See:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Elohim/elohim.html

Dear El Cid:

You begin above by stating “EVIDENCE OF JESUS'S DEITY AND UNITY WITH THE FATHER!” and note that by Deity means among other things, “a god” or “divine character of nature of God” etc, and then of course, Jesus is no doubt divine as he had a pre-human existence with God before he was transferred by his “God and Father” (see scriptures below that state this, God and Father of Jesus) into the Jewish Virgin Mary. Also, there is no question as to Jesus unity with his “God and Father.” That is NOT the issue! The issue is: Jesus never clamed to be God, but the Son of God! The spirit demons, who knew who Jesus was, called him Son of God! The Apostles, the inspired writers of the NT identified him as the Son of God! Thus, you will NOT find ONE scripture that clearly, plainly, simply states that Jesus is his own God and Father, or that Jesus is Almighty God, and or that God is Triune! EVER!!!

You’re attempt at using John 10:30 to prove that Jesus is God is to take what Jesus states out of context and in fact ignores the context in which he stated these words, as he himself explains that he is God’s Son in verse 36!!! Also, what Jesus stated here, can be clearly understood by simply looking at another account in the same Book of John Chapter 14 verse 20, where Jesus states “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” Now, in view of these words, we have total and clear clarification, for what is expressed above in verses 9 and 10 of Chapter 14 in his conversation with Philip, with simple and clear language (without any outside sources) and without any doubt, we KNOW that his disciples (including us) are not “literally” in or inside Jesus, any more than Jesus is in or inside his Father, (since if you are using this verses 9 and 10 here, to support this) but rather, they are, as we are (as supported above), “one” with Jesus, meaning “one” in purpose, and “one” in spirit (Please See 1 Corinthians 6:17) as Jesus is “one” in purpose and in spirit with his Father, but these verses clearly do not (grammatically) express or mean, that God and Jesus are the same person any more than his disciples, nor you and I are Jesus, or in Jesus literally, as one person or being or Triune person! In the end, if you continue to believe in the Trinity, then know that at the very least, if you are being fair, that the scripture you referenced for this, does not state Jesus is God or God is Jesus in a literal way! (It also does not discuss the Holy Spirit here either for the third part of this doctrine).

Thus, as you state, it is true, that while we cannot make this claim, Jesus prays for us to be one with him and thus making us one with his God and Father!

Sir, the Bible also speaks of married people becoming “one-flesh” but we know that humanly speaking this is NOT possible, not is that what it means, but instead this speaks to a married couple being one in purpose!

Nothing you have quoted clearly, simply, plainly and explicitly states, that “Jesus is Equal to the Father” however he is similar to his Father or equal “in His Divine nature, Divine Essence, Divine attributes, in His Divine Character” as he is according to scripture, but this does not mean or express that they are the SAME PERSON or SPIRIT BEING AT ALL!!! The same can be said of your offspring that they of the same human nature, attributes kind etc!

Now here you make another blunder (one of many Biblically speaking), “Jesus is subordinate to the Father in His human nature, human function, human office, in His human position” and reply, that the following scriptures were written AFTER Jesus went back to Heaven to resume his role, according to you and those like you as God, or part of the Godhead, Trinity etc.:

1 Corinthians 15:24, and the surrounding texts clearly refer to the role Jesus plays, clearly after he returned to Heaven, and clearly refers to “the God and Father” of Jesus, and that Jesus will, note: (This and all verses below are from the NASB) “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all”; showing clearly that after Jesus is done with the tasks given him to do by his Father, that he Jesus himself, will also be “subjected” to who, himself, part of himself NO, but to his “God and Father” so that the “God and Father of Jesus” will “be all in all.”

Romans 15:5 and 6, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc, speaks of our being of the “same mind” as Jesus, and then glorifying the “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 1:3, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., speaks of “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 Corinthians 11:31, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., speaks of “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Peter 1:3, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

JESUS TELLS US HE HAS A GOD!!! PERIOD!!! IT IS THE SAME GOD AND FATHER WE HAVE, ACCORING TO JESUS AT JOHN 20:17!! It does not get any clearer than this, but wait:

1 Corinthians 11:3 also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., tells us that “God is the head of Christ.”

Ephesians 5:20, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., note how this speaks of both of them separately and states “always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father.” Giving thanks not to Jesus but in the name of Jesus to God!

1 Thessalonians 1:3, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., note how this speaks of both of them separately, “constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father.”
1 Thessalonians 3:11-13, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., note how this speaks of both of them separately and as God “HIMSELF”, “Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.”

Acts 3:13, also written after Jesus went back to Heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., clearly refers to Jesus as God’s servant note: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.”

Acts 3: 26, also written after Jesus went back to heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., clearly refers to Jesus as God’s servant note: “For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

Acts 4: 27 and 30, also written after Jesus went back to heaven to presumably resume his role as God or as part of the Godhead as God the Son etc., note that the Apostles with Peter expressed in prayer to God, after calling or referring to King David in verse 25, as God’s “servant” note: "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,” and 30, “while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." This is as clear as it gets!!!!

In Revelation 3:12,13 12 Jesus also shows he has a God while in Heaven, and feel free to take a good look at any Red Letter Edition of the Bible, though this is from the NASB, “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Question: What is the name of Jesus’ God and what is Jesus new name?

You then go onto state, “The disciples attests to Jesus’ divine nature, assigning to Jesus traits that are reserved for God. Jesus is called” and reply, however Jesus Divine nature is NOT in question, as we know that Jesus is of Divine origin, as God is his Father, so what would you expect him to be? But rather, what is in question is whether or not Jesus is God and if God is Triune! Thus you are not correct when you state, “All of the above traits assigned to Jesus in the NT are strictly unique to Jehovah in the OT” as the OT clearly mentions in Isaiah 9:6, 7, that the Messiah will indeed have the “traits” (that is why it can be said, that sons have the traits of their fathers and mothers) of Jehovah God, the God and Father of Jesus, as attested to in the NT. Also above in Acts 4: 27 and 30 that clearly shows what was being done By God through Jesus!

The fact that Thomas was in utter shock and disbelief, and expressed "My Lord and My God" at John 20:28 first, cannot obviate, or invalidate the scriptures above, nor contradict them! Second, careful examination and research surrounding the context of Thomas words, (his not believing etc) will show that many scholars feel this was a normal reaction! In fact so normal, that today people frequently say, words like “Oh My God” or “My God” or “Jesus, Mary and Joseph” etc however they never intend to mean that the shocking or surprising event they witness is God himself!

Revelation 22: 8-9, does not state, Jesus is to be worshipped, but to “Worship God” not Jesus, but again and instead, we are to worship “the God and Father of Jesus” who is our “God and Father” as so plainly and clearly stated above in the scriptures quoted!!! And you are correct only the Almighty God, is to be worshipped not Jesus, as it was the God and Father of Jesus, who sent his Son Jesus to the earth, who is called a “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6,7 but no where do we get the instruction in the Bible that we are to worship him or anyone but the “God and Father of Jesus.”

Thus, it is irrelevant what “Doctor Norman L. Geisler” stated in the “Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics” as I used for this reply ONLY the Bible, in the above scriptures to prove that Jesus is NOT GOD!

You state in conclusion, that you can go on and on etc., and you are indeed right that you can, but no matter what you say, or how many words you use, what you believe is contradicted by the scriptures above!

Finally, you incorrectly state, “Elohim, a name for our God, is plural” and reply, Sir, Elohim is not a NAME, but a title, that translated God in English and that is used for false God’s in the OT as well, and is also translated as Angels at times! Lastly, in Hebrew when denoting Majesty, they typically use the PLURAL word form, meaning not just with Elohim/God but with any Hebrew word when doing so!!! (Elohim also has a singular form) Also, with regards to PLURAL, who is it that sets PLURAL (which means more than one) to be 3, when it can be 2, 3, 5, 50, 100 etc.!

Take your emotions out of this and your pre-conceived ideas taught you by creeds, doctrines, dogmas and theology and simply read, grammatically, read the scriptures above and you will see, THAT YOU CANNOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD OR THAT HE IS TRIUNE FROM THE SCRIPTUES IN THE BIBLE BY THEMSELVES!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Hi el cid. You are indeed correct. I checked out http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm, and theos was used. I guess I should have went there first.

This is where I checked before I made my post to you.

http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/john_1.shtml

If you check out verse 18 at the link, the Greek word used was not theos. Nevertheless, perhaps you can understand where my misunderstanding was coming from. Do you have any idea why this link would use the wrong Greek word for Son? BTW, I know nothing about this site. I only use it for their online Strong's concordance. I used to use http://www.blueletterbible.org/search.html, but this part of the site no longer functions in any of my browsers. Probably because I use older browsers that are not compatable with the new code they apparently started using.

I would like to make one more point, just so you don't misunderstand me. Jesus is indeed God. This is no new revelation to me. I've been knowing this for at least 30 yrs, and I still know it.:)

Oneway:

My post to you of yesterday, number 332, on page 17, of 2-10-09 at 4:49PM directly lets you know what this is so!

I am not sure you caught this!

TonyP

[quinntorah]

Does anyone else have a problem when someone trys to "prove" a point by going just to the "NT"? If I was a Israelite 2000 yrs. ago I would not believe such silliness either!! TQ I'm not trying to pick a fight...but seriously ask the question!!

[dobman53]

el_cid,,Oneway

I love how you dig up some slanted Bible translations printed by some foolishly deticated Denomination. Then of all things you jump to your feet and pronounce a total victory.

el_cid when you start off piling on the scriptures, to then tell me the view in how you see it all coming together. It causes me to have concerns. Do you think your honestly busting new ground for me, or are you just showing off??

Believe me when I tell you I've been down that road before. As I just have to tell you the further you go in such displays the more twisted you get things mixed up. Should I ever be in desire to read what your spelling out, all's I have to do is click on any old site I choose. You see so many denominations these days are stumbling in total darkness, anymore it's a case of the blind leading the blind.

Just look upon yourself!! Can't you see all these endless verses forever needing to be twisted and stretched,, only for the reasons to preserve a bunch of made-up make believe faiths. Don't you ever tire of such nonsence, well I sure did.

So when I tell you I've been down that road before!! Well let me tell you it was about a hundred pairs of shoes ago. Got the picture??

Dob!!

[praetorian]

Does anyone else have a problem when someone trys to "prove" a point by going just to the "NT"? If I was a Israelite 2000 yrs. ago I would not believe such silliness either!! TQ I'm not trying to pick a fight...but seriously ask the question!!


I am not sure if you are targeting your post to me, so let me state that my reply above was specifically to El Cid and others, and was on point with what EC and others expressed which focused primarily on the NT.

However, I am fully aware that Jews are not Trinitarians (I believe you refer to this as the Shama-forgive my misspelling) something that is completely missed by those Christians who believe in this false, God dishonoring teaching!

Regards,

TonyP

[oneway]

el_cid,,Oneway

I love how you dig up some slanted Bible translations printed by some foolishly deticated Denomination. Then of all things
you jump to your feet and pronounce a total victory.


Very funny, Dobman53, and I do mean that literally. lol

I seriously doubt that you read any of my posts in this thread according to the context I wrote them in. If you had, then it should be pretty clear that your observations are incorrect. Probably not tho, since it's pretty clear that you don't understand anything, or at least very little, according to context in the first place.

BTW, since you happened to also mention my name here, please show me in my posts in this thread, how I jumped to my feet and pronounced a total victory. I can't wait to see where I did this, lol.

[dobman53]

Oneway:

Post #350

It appeared to me you were in total agreement with el_cid where in his previous post he listed of a bunch of detailed accounts from some particular publication composing the latest up to date translated Biblical texts. Now of course these translations all favor the general agreed upon misconceptions held by the majority of goody two shoer's.

el_cid?? then being so completely thorough lists off publication dates, all kinds of dashes and punctuation marks the whole works.

Very impressive very impressive!!!

Oneway sorry about the slam. It's just seems one day you lean to the left, the next day you lean to the right. Then the next day you've disappeared??

You know me well enough to know, where sooner or later I'm bound to drop the hammer. Should your fingers have gotten pinched in the proccess. Sorry!!

You know yourself I wind up doing my fair share of apologies off the boards. As I'm not out to harm a soul, but the beliefs of some can get me going to the point where sometimes I just don't know??

All is well

Dob!!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

A JW is a Christian. Duh! Granted not one you agree with but a Christian none the less!

TonyP

hehehehehehehehehehhehehehehehehehe

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM

Feel free to address this challenge for all on this board to read!!!

Show me, and all here, where I have NOT addressed a matter specifically on point, NOTE I did not state show me where you FEEL I am wrong, but where I fail to address and or inadvertently miss doing so!

TATM, didn’t your parents teach you, that just because you say it is so, it does not mean it is so!

I would really like to see you complete this challenge as saying so and or ignoring it, only means you are not telling the truth!

Here is your opportunity to PROVE ME WRONG!

TonyP


In quite a few emails, trying to avoid the murder of innocent children to serve the purpose of your religion.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Does anyone else have a problem when someone trys to "prove" a point by going just to the "NT"? If I was a Israelite 2000 yrs. ago I would not believe such silliness either!! TQ I'm not trying to pick a fight...but seriously ask the question!!

The Israelite had no problem buying into a theory of multiple gods. We see that in several places. Getting them to accept the idea of a single god was the impossible task. As to seeing God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they had no problem.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

You know M(r)(s). El Cid, you really like being trashed. Do you realize you are wasting your time? True-believerism-syndrome. Have you ever studied the subject?

The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic but, seemingly, even sanity.
--The Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher

The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable. How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder? (1)
--M. Lamar Keene

True-believer syndrome is an expression coined by M. Lamar Keene to describe an apparent cognitive disorder characterized by believing in the reality of paranormal or supernatural events after one has been presented overwhelming evidence that the event was fraudulently staged. Keene is a reformed phony psychic who exposed religious racketeering—to little effect, apparently. Phony faith healers, psychics, channelers, televangelist miracle workers, etc., are as abundant as ever. (2)

TBS defies logic, reason, common sense. In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, TBS stands steadfast. True believers tend to follow people such as Shepard’s Chapel, Jim Jones, David Koresh, the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism, for examples. Charles Fox Parham, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson . . . all lead sexual lives so bizarre no one who label them as pious. Yet the TB laps at their feet much like a little puppy. There is no rhyme or reason for their devotion.

Some have suggested that TB’s have an emotional need to fill. Others feel TBS have a low self-esteem. TBS fill their need for excellence by claiming excellence for religion or holy cause. Or as Eric Hoffer states “The fanatic is perpetually incomplete and insecure. He cannot generate self-assurance out of his individual resources -- out of his rejected self -- but finds it only by clinging passionately to whatever support he happens to embrace. This passionate attachment is the essence of his blind devotion and religiosity, and he sees in it the source of all virtue and strength.... He easily sees himself as the supporter and defender of the holy cause to which he clings. And he is ready to sacrifice his life.” (3)

1. Keene, M. Lamar. The Psychic Mafia (Prometheus, 1997).

2. The Skeptic’s Dictionary, 2005

3. Hoffer, Eric. The True Believer : Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (HarperCollins, 1989 reissue).

*** I posted that originally under the thread True-believerism"***

Or as someone else said: One who has surrendered their rational cognitive faculties to political or religious dogma or other "higher authority," and is thus incapable of objectively assessing real-world events and personalities that contradict the articles of faith promulgated by said particular dogma or authority in any way. All events must therefore be interpreted by the True Believer in ways completely consistent with the dogmatic "filter," and any facts or explanations lying outside the filter parameters disputed, denied, and/or dismissed. True Believerism is usually accompanied with zealotry.

If you were paying attention, Mr. Tonyp has got caught in one lie here already. Yet, he simply turned a blind eye. You will find that he has been extremely well indoctrinated into the false doctrine of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. As to the Sheperd's Chapel crew . . . well . . . you will find they share many common traites. I am searching for a quote from the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society now. They claim the quote came from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. I will show you the quote and the actual paragraph when I find them. Another wonderful document by that religion is "What you should know about the Trinity." That document is hilarious to anyone who has ever read the Bible.

[truth_child]

the trinity is clearly in the bible how could JESUS pray to himself if HE WAS THE ONLY ONE

[praetorian]

hehehehehehehehehehhehehehehehehehe


What a coincidence?

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, though some are better looking that others!

LOL

TP

[praetorian]

the trinity is clearly in the bible how could JESUS pray to himself if HE WAS THE ONLY ONE


I know you believe in this Pagan belief, that is NOT stated clearly in the Bible, however, your question, makes no sense!

TP

[praetorian]

In quite a few emails, trying to avoid the murder of innocent children to serve the purpose of your religion.

You proved nothing other than you have a nose-an opinion.

Show me where I avoid or go away! LOL Show me, tell me how I "avoid the murdre of innocent children to serve th purpose of" my "religion."

Pray tell!

TP

[praetorian]

The Israelite had no problem buying into a theory of multiple gods. We see that in several places. Getting them to accept the idea of a single god was the impossible task. As to seeing God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they had no problem.

I was speaking from the standpoint of faithful Jews and their worship of God, not to the many forms of apostasy they took throughout their history that in the end allowed them to kill the SON OF GOD, NOT GOD!

Bravo, you have managed to AVOID dealing with the subject matter at hand, by this and your other posts on this thread of the Trinity!

TP

[praetorian]

TATM:

Sadly you believe your excrement!

One can be passionate about their beliefs as a scientist, or humanitarian, or other discipline in life, however when it comes to the Bible, then it is described as those like you as though it is misplaced, as “TB.” I am guilty as charged, of this with my worship of God, with my family, with my friends, and with what I do for a living!

Sadly, all of my posts are taken from everywhere but JW’s, and yes, I am a proud worshipper of Jehovah God through is Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

TP

[truth_child]

Jesus is and was and foever shall the the son of god. He was and is and ever shall be god he was and is god in the flesh he prayed to his father in heaven and he sent the holy ghost to be with us yes jesus is god

[praetorian]

Jesus is and was and foever shall the the son of god. He was and is and ever shall be god he was and is god in the flesh he prayed to his father in heaven and he sent the holy ghost to be with us yes jesus is god

TC I am going to make this is easy as I can; find ONE, scripture, that explicitly states that Jesus is God and post it here in reply! Otherwise your statement contradicts itself as the scriptures plainly tells us Jesus is God’s Son and that Jesus has a “God and Father” the same one we do! That is what the Bible explicitly states!

Your position and those like you actually demean the “God and Father of Jesus” as it implies that God could not inspire a Bible writer to make this explicitly clear in the Bible so that he has to have humans, like you EXPLAIN THIS!!!

Now since you brought up the matter of the Holy Spirit (As Ghost is simply a mistranslation) note the following below, plainly stated in SIMPLE ENGLISH!

One of the many crystal clear scriptural accounts that mentions all three, is the one found at Acts 7:55 and 56 which states in the NIV, “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God”; TC, it cannot get any clearer than this, grammatically speaking! It is theology, that has you leave what is simply, clearly and plainly expressed here, and in other parts of the Bible, that state Jesus is God’s Son, and that he has a God and Father, to then take it into the various theories of how God is Triune etc., when that is NOT what the Bible nor this verse state at all!!!! Please reason on this!!!

Note too, how this verse explains, that when Stephen was or became “full of Holy Spirit”, (not full of God or a God) that it caused him to do something; SEE into Heaven, thus, it empowered and or allowed him to do something and that was: To see in Heaven, and he saw, not a Trinity but God and his Son Jesus, at God’s Right Hand! You can twist this, add to it, and interpret it, any which way you want, as this is your right, BUT IT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE PLAINLY, CLEARLY AND SIMPLY, AND GRAMMATICALLY SPEAKING STATES!!!

TP

[truth_child]

the bible says that GOD (JEHOVAH ) gave authority to HIS SON , JESUS to do all that HE wants to do i will discuss this no father for JESUS IS GOD

[praetorian]

the bible says that GOD (JEHOVAH ) gave authority to HIS SON , JESUS to do all that HE wants to do i will discuss this no father for JESUS IS GOD

TC there must be a disconnect here coming from your end.

Note please what I state here again, below, as I am not using any complicated words!

I am going to make this is easy as I can; find ONE, scripture, that explicitly states that Jesus is God and post it here in reply! You won’t be able to!

Thus your statement contradicts itself as the scriptures plainly tells us Jesus is God’s Son and that Jesus has a “God and Father” the same God we do! That is what the Bible explicitly states! PERIOD!!!

Get it, there are many scriptures that explicitly call Jesus “the Son of God” and that state Jesus has a “God and Father” so if the Bible calls him this, then where are your scriptures that contradict this as explicitly (clearly and directly) like the ones calling him “Son of God” and that Jesus has a “God and Father” meaning he cannot be his own God and Father nor Son!

You are correct that “the bible says that GOD (JEHOVAH ) gave authority to HIS SON JESUS to do all that HE wants to do” which also clearly means they are not THE SAME, as the one giving authority is not the same one as receiving the authority as this makes no sense!

You make no sense nor will you find one scripture that explicitly, clearly and directly tells you that Jesus is God, or that God is Triune!

TP

[praetorian]

If the Title Deed to your house listed “El Sid” as owner of the house but others tell you, that even though this says this, it really means, that you, “TC” owns the house, I believe you would not take anyone’s word for this as you can read, what it says, and it plainly, clearly explicitly states that you do not own the house, “El Sid” does, and you would then deal with it accordingly! This is the POINT the Bible tells you that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Jesus has a God and Father, but you instead take the position to disregard what is in print, and interpret what is not clearly stated!

Thus, the question is; what makes you feel that you can do this with God’s word, affecting the Title Deed to your house, your life?

You and those like you make no sense!

TP

[truth_child]

because the bible tells me so

[praetorian]

because the bible tells me so

The Bible does not tell you or anyone and if I am wrong, pretend I am from Missouri and SHOW ME other than by expressing your opinion as I stand by what I repeat here below:

SHOW ME where the Bible tells you clearly and explicitly that Jesus is God and that God is Triune, as clearly as it tells us that Jesus is God’s Son and that Jesus has a God and Father?

Again, if the Title Deed to your house listed “El Sid” as owner of the house but others tell you, that even though this says this, it really means, that you, “TC” owns the house, I believe you would not take anyone’s word for this as you can read, what it says, and it plainly, clearly explicitly states that you do not own the house, “El Sid” does, and you would then deal with it accordingly! This is the POINT the Bible tells you that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Jesus has a God and Father, but you instead take the position to disregard what is in print, and interpret what is not clearly stated!

Thus, the question is; what makes you feel that you can do this with God’s word, affecting the Title Deed to your house, your life?

You and those like you make no sense and you cannot SHOW ME because it does not exist as you believe a Lie! 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12.

Your word, opinion or feelings is simply not good enough and, is contradicted by the Bible, you say “tells” you!

TP

[praetorian]

TC:

Stop making this a silly contest of words, simply SHOW ME if you can’t then don’t OPEN YOUR MOUTH about more LIES as THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE That Jesus is God nor that God is Triune! Again, no Bible then you believe in a LIE!

Your words are no better than my words! SHOW ME BIBLE!!!

[truth_child]

YOU sow me from the bible that JESUS IS NOT GOD

[oneway]

Hi praetorian. I've got a cpl of questions for you. We as Christians, since we are representives of God so to speak, does this then mean that we can forgive sins, like God can, and does this then mean that we can and should also be worshipped, as in the same manner God is worshipped? And what about angels? Can they forgive sins in the same manner that God does and can? Also, can and should angels be worshipped, such as how one might worship God?

If you haven't figured out my point as of yet, I would think that 'no' would be the answer to all of my questions. So then, how do we explain Christ? There are numerous passages that undeniably imply that He forgave others of their sins. There's other numerous passages that undeniably implies that He was also worshipped.

The problem, the way I see it, if you answered no to all of my prev questions, then it should be clear that Jesus was and is God, otherwise how do you explain how He could forgive sins, and how He could be worshipped if He were not God?

[praetorian]

YOU sow me from the bible that JESUS IS NOT GOD

For TC:

As in direct reply to your question, despite your not ever answering mine at all EVER, because you can’t!

Jesus has a “God and Father” (See Scriptures below that state this)

1 Corinthians 15:24, Romans 15:5 and 6, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31,
Ephesians 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3, ALL say that Jesus has a “God and Father.”

Jesus has a “God” (See scriptures below that state this)

John 20:17 (on earth after he was resurrected) and Revelation 3:12,13 12 when he was in Heaven, clearly state that Jesus has a God!

God is the Head of Jesus (See scripture below that states this)

1 Corinthians 11:3, shows that God is the Head of Jesus.

Jesus is God’s “servant” (See scriptures below that state this)

Acts 3:13, Acts 3: 26, Acts 4: 27 and 30 (written after Jesus went back to Heaven) show that Jesus is the “servant” of God.

NOTE: You can find these scriptures in ANY BIBLE YOU USE with not one stating that he does not have a God and Father!

Now, for TC and all on this board, please, please, please, show me simple scriptures, like the ones above that are contained in ALL Bibles, and are clear and easy to understand and read, no wait, even easier, just ONE scripture that states, that Jesus is God, and or that God is Triune!

And if you find one, make sure that there are no controversies connected with it, like at 1 John 5:7, that is problematic but this too does not state that God is Triune or that Jesus is God.

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I have been busy today, but here is one quote from the WB&TS.

How the quote appears:

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: "The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence' [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth]."

"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."-The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

Full Text of Article
"The Trinity. The NT does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. "The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself. And the other express declaration is also lacking, that God is God thus and only thus, i.e. as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These two express declarations, which go beyond the witness of the Bible, are the twofold content of the Church doctrine of the Trinity" (Karl Barth, CD, 1, 1, 437). It also lacks such terms as trinity. (Lat. trinitas which was coined by Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 3; 11 ; 12 etc.) and homoousios which featured in the Creed of Nicea (325) to denote that Christ was of the same substance as the Father (cf. J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 1968, 113, 233-7). But the NT does contain the fixed, three-part formula of 2 Cor. 13:13 (EVV 14) in which God, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit are mentioned together (cf. I Cor. 12:4 ff.). The Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit occurs only in the baptismal formula in Matt. 28:19. The later addition, I Jn. 5:8 (in Lat. texts from the 6th cent.), contains the triad, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit (cf. E. Stauffer, TDNT III 108 f.). An extension of the triadic form in which, however, the important element is "the one God," "the one Lord" and "the one Spirit," appears in Eph. 4:4 ff. Gal. 4:4 ff. does not, strictly speaking, present a formula. It sets out the action of God in salvation history, placing God, Christ and the Holy Spirit in their right relationship: God first sends the Son and then the Spirit of his Son to continue the work of Jesus on earth. On the other hand, God and Christ especially are closely connected in two-part formulae: "one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 8:6). "one God ... and one mediator between God and men" (I Tim. 2:5). In this connection Matt. 23:8-10 must also be mentioned, where Jesus draws the disciples' attention to the fact that they have one master (himself) and one God in heaven. In all these statements the two facts, that God and Christ belong together and that they are distinct, are equally stressed, with the precedence in every case due to God, the Father, who stands above Christ. (On the formulae see E. Stauffer, New Testament Theology, 1955, 235-57, J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Creeds, 19721, 6-29; V. F. Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions, 1963.)

A close relationship exists also between Christ and the Holy ---> Spirit. Thus Paul can say outright that the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). In John's Gospel the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete, ---> Advocate) appears with "certain independence" (E. Stauffer, TDNT 111 107). But in his work he is bound to the exalted Christ (Jn. 16:14; "He will take what is mine"). Christ and the Holy Spirit are in an interchangeable relationship. But even here there is no strict, dogmatic assertion. Although the Spirit is distinguished from Christ and subordinated to him, it can be said in I Jn. 2:1 that Christ is the Paraclete with the Father. All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early church." (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Brown, Colin, 1932, God, vol 2, p84, J. Schneider)

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Come, Mr. Tonyp, if not for the vituperation from Sheperd's Chapel and yourself, what would we have to read? OH! by the by, my opinion may be like a nose, but it is shared by ALL Christianity.

[truth_child]

1 cor 15:24 says ...to GOD , EVEN THE FATHER , romans 15: 6.. glorify GOD EVEN THE FATHER OF our LORD JESUS CHRIST, 1 COR 1:3.... from GOD OUR FATHER AND FROM THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ,11COR 11:31... THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST , ephesians 1:3 blessed be THE GOD AND FATHER OF our LORD JESUS CHRIST ,1 PETER 1:3 BLESSED BE THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST . none of these are referring to JESUS NOT BEING GOD BUT ALL ARE REFERRING TO JESUS BEING THE SON OF GOD, GOD BEING HIS FATHER AND HE IS STILL GOD FOR ALL THESE THREE ARE ONE 1 JOHN 5:7
for there are three that bear record in heaven , THE FATHER , THE WORD AND THE HOLY GHOST . this also is confirmed in john 1:1 that WORD WAS CALLED GOD and that word was and is JESUS

[praetorian]

Hi praetorian. I've got a cpl of questions for you. We as Christians, since we are representives of God so to speak, does this then mean that we can forgive sins, like God can, and does this then mean that we can and should also be worshipped, as in the same manner God is worshipped? And what about angels? Can they forgive sins in the same manner that God does and can? Also, can and should angels be worshipped, such as how one might worship God?

If you haven't figured out my point as of yet, I would think that 'no' would be the answer to all of my questions. So then, how do we explain Christ? There are numerous passages that undeniably imply that He forgave others of their sins. There's other numerous passages that undeniably implies that He was also worshipped.

The problem, the way I see it, if you answered no to all of my prev questions, then it should be clear that Jesus was and is God, otherwise how do you explain how He could forgive sins, and how He could be worshipped if He were not God?

Hi Oneway:

NOTE: Please read this all the way, look up the scriptures before you pull the trigger of response-K?

First it is critical to point out that, ‘Elvis has left the Building’ meaning, you have left off the topic above and that is: inding clear and plainly stated scriptures that tell that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune; thus you have not addressed any of the posts and the scriptures in support at all! So before I begin, I would like to know, if you have any answers to any of the matters pointed out above and the scriptures used, on this thread-string? How nice that you invoke the luxury of avoidance and continue your questions! Nice real nice but not fair nor appropriate!

You are really asking me this question; “We as Christians, since we are representives [sic]of God so to speak, does this then mean that we can forgive sins, like God can, and does this then mean that we can and should also be worshipped, as in the same manner God is worshipped?” OK (add a little valley girl inflection to a male voice here).

First these are more than a “couple of questions” they are several into one or two composite ones. K.

I know this is going to be hard to follow, so I will try to only use simple words here:

The US Government has many representatives and at times they can speak for the US Government and the President, and occasionally, some are granted specific, “special” powers and authority, by the President that is binding, however and again, this is ONLY if the President chooses to do so; however, that does not mean that any of the representatives (we are representatives of God as you out it, his worshippers) or a particular special representative is the President him or herself!

Now, God has appointed his special and ONLY Son, (but that does not mean God does not have other Spirit Sons, Angels and or human sons) and granted him special powers, abilities and authority, but that does not mean that his Son is God any more than a special appointee of the President is the President!

Now, more to your question, ‘can we forgive sins’, I reply NO, as we as God’s representatives have not been given that authority, but one has, his special and only first begotten Son Jesus, who is also a God, and this one can do this because God empowered him to this and all other things related to his will! Therefore, neither the Angels, nor we or anyone else, have been empowered to forgive sins! Silly question, REALLY! (See this at Acts 4:10-12 and Matthew 28:18; and the noted “exception” of authority over his “God and Father” as stated at 1 Corinthians 15:27, NIV, “…it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.”)

Thus, angels, nor we can be worshipped, and I have a surprise for you, neither can Jesus either!!! Jesus said clearly in the account where Jesus was being tempted by the Devil, (another point---no one can EVER Tempt God) Jesus in reply at Matthew 4:4, (and in the parallel account at Luke Chapter 4) quotes from the OT at Deuteronomy 8:3; In Matthew 4:7, from Deuteronomy 6:16; and finally at Matthew 4:10, Deuteronomy 10:20; and please further note that in all cases, Jesus was quoting the Hebrew scriptures (OT) that clearly and incontrovertibly contain God’s personal name, the “ineffable” [big word sorry] name (The Divine Name) that we have come to know in English as Jehovah. For proof why don’t you go to the site you have already downloaded, at www.scripture4all.org, (which you mentioned in your reply to El Cid) and see this for yourself!!!

You know your own words give you away on this, when you state “undeniably implies” speaking as to Jesus being worshipped.

Now, I bet you can’t wait to thrown some scriptures at me on this, Jesus being “worshipped” and a bit of advice; don’t be too hasty, as you can be SURE that it is not as simple as it meets the eye! I’m waiting!

TP

[praetorian]

1 cor 15:24 says ...to GOD , EVEN THE FATHER , romans 15: 6.. glorify GOD EVEN THE FATHER OF our LORD JESUS CHRIST, 1 COR 1:3.... from GOD OUR FATHER AND FROM THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ,11COR 11:31... THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST , ephesians 1:3 blessed be THE GOD AND FATHER OF our LORD JESUS CHRIST ,1 PETER 1:3 BLESSED BE THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST . none of these are referring to JESUS NOT BEING GOD BUT ALL ARE REFERRING TO JESUS BEING THE SON OF GOD, GOD BEING HIS FATHER AND HE IS STILL GOD FOR ALL THESE THREE ARE ONE 1 JOHN 5:7
for there are three that bear record in heaven , THE FATHER , THE WORD AND THE HOLY GHOST . this also is confirmed in john 1:1 that WORD WAS CALLED GOD and that word was and is JESUS


TC

I just figured this out; you can't read, or you selectively read! Your own verses above tell you that Jesus has a "God Even the Father" of Jesus, (THUS NOT THE SAME)!!!! Wow how do you get to Jesus being God and God being Triune here? That would be a neat magic trick as the words tell you that Jesus is NOT God, and that He has a God and Father and nothing here states God is Triune! How do you do this magic?

Wow!

[praetorian]

Hey TC:

I owe you an apology as I did not address your referencing 1 John 5:7, and John 1:1, and the last thing I want to do, is give ammunicaiton to you or especially TATM, for my response in haste to you, that did in fact inadvertently neglect to respond to these two scriptures. So here it goes!

1 John 5:7 is NOT in most, and never in all of the older Greek manscripts!!! This was found in the KJV Bible of 1611 forward as the KJV is NOT a translation (we danced to this song a long time ago) as it’s own name, calls it a VERSION, and that is because it was not translated from Greek and Hebrews (which has numerous problems all it’s own and is another subject) but from the LATIN instead!!!! Thus, this scripture is NOT as CUT AND DRY as you would like it to be andn that is why is referred to as a “spurious addition.” Don’t take my word for it, LOOK IT UP!!!

Now, I must ask you, with regards to John 1:1-5 have you ever done the research yourself personally, by going to a library and looking at a Greek text or have you done what most people do, and that is, take the word of someone else and make it your own by repeating it?

First and foremost, at first glance and at best, these verses, (especially verse 1) if taken the way you want them to read, or as expressed in the KJV and “most” Bible’s would mean that God and Jesus are the same person-being, or spirit creature, however, this verse does NOT support a Trinity as one needs THREE to support this and not two, as it does here! Second, if this were the only manner, this verse was rendered in “ALL” Bibles, then you again, would have at best, a duo-ity, not a Trinity. GET IT!!!

Now, please take a note of the following English Bibles and how they translate John 1:1 or 1-3. Also take note that this is taken from the following WebPages in order for you to verify and validate this for yourself (and oh, BTW, TATM, nothing from the JW’ here, I thought I would point this out as you seem to be making this up where ever you can);

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/index.htm

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/name.htm

1. (MNT) Moffatt New Translation (1922) George H. Doran Company (1922)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God,
the Logos was divine.”

2. (NEB) New English Bible. (1970)
“When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.”

3. (SGAT) An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed (1931) University of Chicago Press (1931
“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be.”

4. (WET) Wuest Expanded Translation (1961) Eerdmans (1961)
“In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father. All things through His intermediate agency came into being, and without Him there came into being not even one thing which has come into existence.”

5. The Authentic New Testament (1958) New American Library (1958) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

6. (BNT) Barclay New Testament (1969). "Collins (vol. 1 in 1968; vol. 2 in 1969)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.”

7. (CNT) Cassier New Testament (1989) William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“It was the Word that was at the very beginning; and the Word was by the side of God, and the Word was the very same as God.”

8. (ISV) International Standard (1998) Davidson Press (1998)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made”

9. (ONT) The Original New Testament (1985) Harper and Row (1985)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“'In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

10. The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1997) AFI International Publishers (1997) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55: 11; BERE**** 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim!”

11. (PRNT) The Restored New Testament 1914 John M. Pryse / John M. Watkins (1925) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“The divine Thought inhered in the primordial Element, And proximate to the Unmanifested God was this divine Thought; And verily the divine Thought was the secondary God”

12. (REB) Revised English Bible (1989) Oxford and Cambridge Universities Presses (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was.”

13. (SV) Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) (1993) Macmillan (1993)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was.”

14. (TEV) Today’s English Version (1976) [The Good News Bible] (@) United Bible Societies (1976) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God.”

15. (UNT) The Unvarnished New Testament (1991) Phanes Press (1991) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was what the Word was.”

End of English Bible references.

Now, to be fair, there are many more English translations on this same web page, and elsewhere, that translate these verses similar or identical to the one in the KJV, or as quoted above by me above, from the NIV, however, it goes to clearly establish that this is NOT a matter that is simply CUT AND DRY, as at first glance and also that JW’s are NOT the only ones that translate John 1:1, differently!

In fact, reading these varying differences in translation from English Bible’s from around the world, should at the very least, raise legitimate issues and concern, that there must be something in the original Greek text that causes this to be so, as the reading of it one way, tells you that Jesus is God, while a reading of it in other ways shows that Jesus is of the same form or substance of God but is NOT God. (NOTE: When I say form or substance, you would not argue if I said your child was like you, human, or humankind, and so with Jesus who is like God, in that he is a spirit or spirit creature just as God and the angels are).

Do you really want me to get into the Greek here? I will state, that part of the problem is that the KJV was translated from the LATIN (thus why it is a VERSION) and Latin does not differentiate between proper nouns and nouns, such as God, and god! So before you open you mouth, do the research and by all means, make sure you read and truly comprehend what is written!

TP

[praetorian]

I have been busy today, but here is one quote from the WB&TS.

How the quote appears:

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: "The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence' [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth]."

"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."-The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

Full Text of Article
"The Trinity. The NT does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. "The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself. And the other express declaration is also lacking, that God is God thus and only thus, i.e. as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These two express declarations, which go beyond the witness of the Bible, are the twofold content of the Church doctrine of the Trinity" (Karl Barth, CD, 1, 1, 437). It also lacks such terms as trinity. (Lat. trinitas which was coined by Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 3; 11 ; 12 etc.) and homoousios which featured in the Creed of Nicea (325) to denote that Christ was of the same substance as the Father (cf. J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 1968, 113, 233-7). But the NT does contain the fixed, three-part formula of 2 Cor. 13:13 (EVV 14) in which God, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit are mentioned together (cf. I Cor. 12:4 ff.). The Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit occurs only in the baptismal formula in Matt. 28:19. The later addition, I Jn. 5:8 (in Lat. texts from the 6th cent.), contains the triad, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit (cf. E. Stauffer, TDNT III 108 f.). An extension of the triadic form in which, however, the important element is "the one God," "the one Lord" and "the one Spirit," appears in Eph. 4:4 ff. Gal. 4:4 ff. does not, strictly speaking, present a formula. It sets out the action of God in salvation history, placing God, Christ and the Holy Spirit in their right relationship: God first sends the Son and then the Spirit of his Son to continue the work of Jesus on earth. On the other hand, God and Christ especially are closely connected in two-part formulae: "one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 8:6). "one God ... and one mediator between God and men" (I Tim. 2:5). In this connection Matt. 23:8-10 must also be mentioned, where Jesus draws the disciples' attention to the fact that they have one master (himself) and one God in heaven. In all these statements the two facts, that God and Christ belong together and that they are distinct, are equally stressed, with the precedence in every case due to God, the Father, who stands above Christ. (On the formulae see E. Stauffer, New Testament Theology, 1955, 235-57, J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Creeds, 19721, 6-29; V. F. Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions, 1963.)

A close relationship exists also between Christ and the Holy ---> Spirit. Thus Paul can say outright that the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). In John's Gospel the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete, ---> Advocate) appears with "certain independence" (E. Stauffer, TDNT 111 107). But in his work he is bound to the exalted Christ (Jn. 16:14; "He will take what is mine"). Christ and the Holy Spirit are in an interchangeable relationship. But even here there is no strict, dogmatic assertion. Although the Spirit is distinguished from Christ and subordinated to him, it can be said in I Jn. 2:1 that Christ is the Paraclete with the Father. All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early church." (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Brown, Colin, 1932, God, vol 2, p84, J. Schneider)

TATM:

This is to address your three posts above, two to me, and one to El Cid, where I get a favorable mention! I am still laughing at you for what you refer to as a “hilarious” document that admits the history and pagan origin of the Trinity, as quoted in a JW publication! HA HA! NOW WHAT, meaning what is your point? All you did was establish that there are those who believe in the Trinity that know the origin and that it is NOT explicitly taught in the Bible!

However, in doing so, you again, have done a DARN GOOD JOB, to avoid dealing with any of the issues and scriptures posted by me, and so I reply as follows:

You stated in part, toward the conclusion of your of post to “El Cid” of 2-12-09 1:11, PM, number 364 that I was “got caught in one lie here already” which I “guess” you refer to “murder” but fail to explain yourself! If you do, I will reply, “if you build it, they will come!” If you do not, then I cannot be expected to reply, but that does not give you the license to lie, and make bizarre phantasmagorical comments that are simply not true and that are ridiculously easy to refute!

TATM the fact that “Sheperds Chapel crew” and others in Christendom, like, Roger Olson and Christopher Hall, Trinitarian Douglas McCready, Professor Shirley C. Guthrie Jr., Trinitarian G.W. Bromiley, supposedly a “Respected Trinitarian Evangelical” scholar, Prof. Charles C. Ryrie, Trinitarian Millard J. Erickson, research professor of theology at S.W. Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist), the noted Catholic scholar Graham Greene, Adam Clarke, a Trinitarian Methodist" and many many others from Christendom, are honest enough to admit that the Trinity is NOT explicitly stated in the Bible does not make them JW’s just because we quote them and or agree with them on this particular matter, and I am sure if you asked each of these, they would agree!

NOTE: Despite this, these folks still believe in the Trinity, as they all come from seminaries that teach “theology” which in and of itself is NOT BIBLE but instead the teachings of men!!!!

Thus your poor attempt at using JW’s literature as coming solely or exclusively from “one” source or a bad source, is to completely mischaracterize what they did and in fact others do, when quoting and or referring to a book or other reference work!

I have a tip for you: The fact that MOST, the majority do not agree with a minority does not make the majority right EVER, it just means most don’t agree! That’s it!!! God’s people have always been in the minority and never in the MAJORITY, thus if you are attempting to use this as some sort of a divining rod, you are using the wrong method as this serves as proof of the opposite!!!

TP

[truth_child]

well just to let you know you jw that GOD IS GOD IN THE FATHER ,AND IN THE SON AND IN THE HOLY GHOST
so jst shut your mouth and try beleiveing what the bibles says for a change

[praetorian]

well just to let you know you jw that GOD IS GOD IN THE FATHER ,AND IN THE SON AND IN THE HOLY GHOST
so jst shut your mouth and try beleiveing what the bibles says for a change

TC

That is all you can say, when I know I showed you above things, that you are IGNORANT about! WOW!!!

This is all you can do, insult me, tell me to “shut” my “mouth” now that is what I call “TRUE CHRISTIANTIY” in action!

No, TC, you have not shown me any scriptures that clearly and explicitly state that Jesus is God and that God is Triune! I will never close my mouth and NOT expose liars like you, in fact, this applies to you!!!

John 8:42-47, especially verse 44 speaks about you and those like you! That is why you cannot listen or understand anything simple that God tells you in the Bible!

Matthew 7:21-23 talks about you too!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

You will have to live with that lie!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Another excelent example of hilarious commentary from the WB&TS, "Is the word 'Trinity' in the Bible? That quote is taken from "What you should know about the Trinity."

Want one more? Mr. Tonyp claims that Charles Taze Russell has something to do with the Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, Mr. Russell was a wery wealthy businessman whose avocation was pyramidology. After Russell's death, his successor changed Russell's vision to 144,000 witnesses causing a division. The larger group, the Bible Students, still follows Russel's original vision. Russell is in no way associated with the JW movement.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

well just to let you know you jw that GOD IS GOD IN THE FATHER ,AND IN THE SON AND IN THE HOLY GHOST
so jst shut your mouth and try beleiveing what the bibles says for a change


Mr. Arron, you are wasting your time. If Mr. Tonyp had the desire to hear the Word of God, he could.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:



God’s people have always been in the minority and never in the MAJORITY, thus if you are attempting to use this as some sort of a divining rod, you are using the wrong method as this serves as proof of the opposite!!!

TP

Are you now suggesting that only those suckered by the WB&TS are God's people? How utterly hilarious!!!!

[truth_child]

yes tatm on that you are truely right

[praetorian]

To TATM:

FIRST AND FOREMOST IT IS PATENTLY CLEAR THAT YOU HAVE TOTALLY IGNORED THE POSTS MADE AND THE SCRIPTURES THAT THE SUPPORT THE SAME AND ARE CHANGING THE SUBJECT MATTER, WHICH DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS AND OR PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD, AND THAT GOD IS TRIUNE, WHEN THE SCRIPTURES PLAINLY EXPRESS OTHERWISE!

This will serve to reply to your three posts above, quote here below:

QUOTE

1. Another excelent [sic] example of hilarious commentary from the WB&TS, "Is the word 'Trinity' in the Bible? That quote is taken from "What you should know about the Trinity."

Want one more? Mr. Tonyp claims that Charles Taze Russell has something to do with the Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, Mr. Russell was a wery [sic] wealthy businessman whose avocation was pyramidology [sic]. After Russell's death, his successor changed Russell's vision to 144,000 witnesses causing a division. The larger group, the Bible Students, still follows Russel's original vision. Russell is in no way associated with the JW movement.

2. Mr. Arron, you are wasting your time. If Mr. Tonyp had the desire to hear the Word of God, he could.

3. Are you now suggesting that only those suckered by the WB&TS are God's people? How utterly hilarious!!!!

End Quote and Reply:

What you feel is an “excellent example of Hilarious commentary” millions of others do not! And; what a coincidence!!! As to your offer of “”Want one more”, I reply, what, more of the same, your own opinions again, that’s NICE but not relevant to the discussion at hand, of Jesus being God or that God is Triune, when they are not!

It is common knowledge that CT Russell was a business man that was one of many Christians (as he seems to get most of the attention) that originated the “IBS”-International Bible Students association, which later changed it’s name to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Russell and those with him challenged the then status quo of many of the things taught by Christendom, and in fact, he himself believed in many things, like in Christmas, the Cross etc, that was and is no secret, was later revised by the IBS-Jehovah’s Witnesses, as more information came to the surface about these things! And like with the game telephone, other things have been added on top of this and repeated and written about so many times, that the proverb of ‘repetition of error, becomes truth’, has proved has proved true!!!

So, what is your point? As you don’t really make one here at all, other than to those like the puppy dogs that agree with you, because they do not agree with me!!! Artful thinking really, quite cultish in thinking!!! Bravo!!!

TATM, you cannot point to any Christian faith today, without pointing to a human being that originated it short of Jesus and the first century Christian Congregation! And we all know what replaced them, The Holy Roman Empire/Holy Roman Church that is at the root of all of this paganism!!!!

TATM your thinking of not allowing for things to be revised in order to criticize the same, falls flat on it’s face for several obvious reasons!!!! Hypocrite; you would no more use a science text book that was 200 years old over one of today! Thus, as the Bible students like him did more research, and more information and discoveries came to the fore, things had to be revised, in view of information to the contrary, as highlighted by my in my posts above! Therefore, you’re attempt to find fault with correcting something is IGNORANT as the reciprocal position of knowing that something is wrong and insisting on NOT making changes illustrates!!!

As to Aaron wasting his time, you are indeed correct, but not for the same reason, as one can indeed IGNORE what the Bible plainly states and believe what they want, but that does not make them right, no matter how much they really believe it!

As to your statement, “If Mr. Tonyp had the desire to hear the Word of God, he could” this also is a bold face lie, wherein you sell and buy your own excrement (Bible term-excrement) as I have shown you plain and simple scriptures that clearly express that Jesus has a “God and Father”, thus they are not the same! In turn, you and or those like you, here, have not found ONE scripture that plainly state that “Jesus is God” and that “God is Triune.” Sadly you folks don’t even know how to explain your own beliefs, as any legitimate Trinitarian or Scholar will readily admit, they believe and teach it, because they take the position that it is “inferred” or “implied”; again, something you and others here don’t even know how to explain, and that I demonstrated to you clearly, by providing quotes, website, references and names of those who do, that come from mainstream Christian religions!!!! That BTW has yet to be refuted and or addressed, other than by IGNORING IT!!!!

Your next statement, “Are you now suggesting that only those suckered by the WB&TS are God's people? How utterly hilarious!!!!”; what I stated is FACTUAL, and you then blurred and blended it, as you first need to separate the two issues, when you write, in order to avoid making you look silly and confuse like minded people unless, of course, it is your purposeful intent to do so!!!! So, let me help you here below in reply.

The FACT IS: God’s people have always been in the minority, thus if you are using this, “majority rule” as a means or divining rod to establish a principal, it falls flat on it’s face! For instance neither in science or in any other discipline does this always hold true other than with voting! Thus the principal and the statement above is FACT, empirically!

Therefore, by simple extension, of the same theme, the statement about God’s people having been always in the minority as compared to the majority, or what the “world” thinks, is NOT a reliable method to use in order to address the issue of whether or not a group of worshippers of God are “TRUE!”

Now, that FACT that someone’s or a group of people sincerely believe and feel that they fit this bill, (by way of their thinking so) is more accurately described as “SUBJECTIVE” which would then allow an individual to accept or reject the same, placing it into the realm of opinion though again, basing it on the “majority principal” simply does not work here!

And yes, I sincerely believe, along with about 7 Million others World Wide that come from all sorts of religions, and thinking like yours; also believe it!!!

In the end, if you believe what the scriptures state, then some group will and must fit this bill today, whether you like it or not!

In the end TATM, this comes down to what I believe that is plainly and simply stated in the Bible and you and others here, believe in what is inferred or implied in the Bible, and despite ours being a minority view, I choose to stick to the words of the Bible and you do not, but rather go beyond it, as that is what one does, when you take what is implied and or inferred to make up your mind!

Thus, 1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV) in particular, the latter part, applies to what you and those like do; “…so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.”

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehhe!!!! My opinion, by the by, is held by 100% of Christianity. Might popular opinion, wouldn't you say?

[praetorian]

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehhe!!!! My opinion, by the by, is held by 100% of Christianity. Might popular opinion, wouldn't you say?

Thank you for making my point!!!

That is the problem-GET IT!!

Jesus was killed by the people in his religion, the "100%" of Judaism, (to match your hyperbole) but that obviously did not make them right!

However it is you feel that has the truth will have the world against them!

Jesus plainly said so!

I see that you that you may get your views from the Apocrypha “Bible” book of TATM 1:1.

Do you make a living with this type of thinking?

Wow!!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

My friend, I make a living the old fashion way. Thank you for comparing Christianity to Judaism. May I take your tack? Atheism, Buddhism, and Islam . . . like Jehovah's Witnesses . . . believe they have it right. Masochism, sadism, and homosexualism, . . . like Jehovah's Witnesses . . . believe they are right and heterosexism (the majority) are wrong. Lovely comparsions, wouldn't you say?

[truth_child]

the jws are difinatly wrong in their teaching

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Polycarp 70 - 155AD


"'Therefore prepare for action and serve God in fear' and truth, leaving behind the empty and meaningless talk and the error of the crowd, and 'believing in him who raised' our Lord Jesus Christ 'from the dead and gave him glory' and a throne at his right hand; to whom all things in heaven and on earth were subjected, whom every breathing creature serves, who is coming as 'Judge of the living and the dead,' for whose blood God will hold responsible those who disobey him." (Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 2).

"For this reason, indeed for all things, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom to you with him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now and for the ages to come. Amen." (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14.3).

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (To the Philippians, 12.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignatius 50 - 117(?)AD


"Since, therefore, in the persons mentioned above I have by faith seen and loved the whole congregation, I have this advice: Be eager to do everything in godly harmony, the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles and the deacons, who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time." (Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 6.1)

"For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him." (To the Magnesians, 8.2).

Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles:

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son, beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that exist, in accordance with faith in and love for Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the district of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and presiding over love, observing the law of Christ, bearing the name of the Father, which I also greet in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father; to those who are united in flesh and spirit to every commandment of his, who have been filled with the grace of God without wavering and filtered clear of every alien color: heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface).

"For if I in a short time experienced such fellowship with your bishop, which was not merely human but spiritual, how much more do I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." (To the Ephesians, 5.1)

"Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clement of Rome, Fourth Pope 88 - 97 AD


"For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit (who are the faith and the hope of the elect), so surely will the one who with humility and constant gentleness has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory to him for ever and ever. Amen." (First Clement, 58.2).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shepherd of Hermas Approx. 160 AD


"'First of all, sir,' I said, 'explain this to me: Who is the rock and the door?' 'This rock,' he said, 'and the door are the Son of God.' 'How is it, sir,' I said, 'that the rock is old, but the door is new?' 'Listen,' he said, 'and understand, foolish man. The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation. That is why the rock is old.' ..." (The Shepherd of Hermas, 12. 89, Parable 9).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD


An early rule of faith of triune form: "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 6).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athenagoras 2nd Century


The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form:

"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through his logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say 'His Logos'], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one...The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, Chapter X).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irenaeus 125 - 200? AD


"This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; through Whom (i.e. the Word) all things were made; Who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconcilation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through Whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led into the way of righteousness; Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man to God." (Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, chap. 6, quoted on p. 53, A Short History of Christian Thought, Linwood Urban.)

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 10, 1).

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Arianism developed around 320, in Alexandria Egypt concerning the person of Christ and is named after Arius of Alexandar. For his doctrinal teaching he was exiled to Illyria in 325 after the first ecumenical council at Nicaea condemned his teaching as heresy. It was the greatest of heresies within the early church that developed a significant following. Some say, it almost took over the church.

Arius taught that only God the Father was eternal and too pure and infinite to appear on the earth. Therefore, God produced Christ the Son out of nothing as the first and greatest creation. The Son is then the one who created the universe. Because the Son relationship of the Son to the Father is not one of nature, it is, therefore, adoptive. God adopted Christ as the Son. Though Christ was a creation, because of his great position and authority, he was to be worshipped and even looked upon as God. Some Arians even held that the Holy Spirit was the first and greatest creation of the Son.

At Jesus' incarnation, the Arians asserted that the divine quality of the Son, the Logos, took the place of the human and spiritual aspect of Jesus, thereby denying the full and complete incarnation of God the Son, second person of the Trinity.

In asserting that Christ the Son, as a created thing, was to be worshipped, the Arians were advocating idolatry.

Monarchianism

Monarchianism (mono - "one"; arche - "rule") was an error concerning the nature of God that developed in the second century A.D. It arose as an attempt to maintain Monotheism and refute tritheism. Unfortunately, it also contradicts the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. Monarchianism teaches that there is one God as one person: the Father. The Trinity is that there is one God in three persons: Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is monotheistic, not polytheistic as some of its critics like to assert. Monarchians were divided into two main groups, the dynamic monarchians and the modal monarchians.

Dynamic Monarchianism teaches that God is the Father and that Jesus is only a man, denied the personal subsistence of the Logos and taught that the Holy Spirit was a force or presence of God the Father. Additionally, some ancient dynamic monarchianists were also known as Adoptionists who taught that Jesus was tested by God and after passing this test and upon His baptism, He was granted supernatural powers by God and adopted as the Son. Ancient teachers of dynamic monarchianism were Theodotians, a Tanner in Byzantium around 190 A.D., and Paul of Samosata a bishop of Antioch in Syria around 260 AD.

Modal monarchianism teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are just modes of the single person who is God. In other words, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not simultaneous and separate persons, but consecutive modes of one person. Praxeas, a priest from Asia Minor, taught this in Rome around 200 AD. The present day modalists maintain that God's name is Jesus. They also require baptism "in Jesus' name" not "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" for salvation.

Modalism


Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three consecutive modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.

They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus,and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I have posted some of the early views of the Trinity. Trinity . . . one God in three persons, is not the false teachings of polytheism . . . three Gods. Unfortunately when discussing any doctrine, it is almost impossible to separate the doctrine from the religion that holds to that theory. One would be remiss to discuss the faked infantile gibberish of the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism with a brick mason. You must have a thorough knowledge of and understanding of a religion in order to get inside their theory. The debate or discussion of the Holy Trinity . . . as such . . . has never occurred in the history of the Christian church.

The real question that must be answered is “ was Jesus Christ created?” or “Was Jesus Christ the creator?” The crisis that caused the schism in 325, was not a discussion/debate of the existence of the “Trinity.” That doctrine was well-established and understood by all. The discussion or schism hinged on the substance of Jesus Christ. Was he really fully God and fully man or Was he simply a man with some form of supernatural powers? The Roman church has an extensive article on ‘substance’. I strongly recommend you read it.

As for studying the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, there are many excellent sites on the internet. In book form, you may want to see “The Kingdom of the Cults” by Walter Martin. Mr. Martin takes on the many false man-made doctrines of that religion and quite handedly refutes them. You may also find the many ex-jw web sites to contain useful information. Josh McDowell has an excellent book on the subject, entitled “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic.”

End of Part 1

[truth_child]

the jws preach a messege that is pure trash

[turtle]

Psalms 2:7 KJV
(7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psalms is the old testament book, The second psalm writter is writting as if God is speaking to His Son in the verse. The keyword here is the begotten. There is only one begotten Son and that is Jesus.

The verse below it is what gets one's attention the most.

Psalms 2:8 KJV
(8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

The Father tells his Son that His inheritance is the heathen. meaning His job is to gather the heathen to Him. We know that Christ came to seek and save the lost. What proof is there scripturally speaking.

John 10:14-18 KJV
(14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
(15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
(17) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
(18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Now one more group of verses to make the point in scripture.

John 10:25-36 KJV
(25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
(26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(30) I and my Father are one.
(31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
(32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
(33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
(34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
(35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Christ claims to be God though it not a direct quote let's look at one more verse.

Hebrews 1:8 KJV
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Christ is on the Throne and is God, the Father declares it in Hebrew.

[turtle]

If you think about with Bible tools we have now research is a snap, back in early days of scripture and text they did not have all the tools to do cross referencing. Everyone had to do their own cross referencing, so it took time as students and preachers to grasp a simple subject in its intrity, the only thing they could really do is open the Word and preach from the text as it is writen relying on the Holy Spirit sololy for understanding. In human era mistakes were bound to happen with the fact it hard to prove something without easy access to the scripture text at hand. If a minister took a computer to class and cross referenced when teaching he be surprised at answers that they would come up with and understanding that would be made.

[praetorian]

TATM:

Wow, sadly, your entire posts, 399, 401, 402 and 403, does NOTHING to address the facts and issues raised in any of my posts, regarding the scriptures that clearly, plainly and simply state that Jesus IS NOT GOD and that God is NOT TRIUNE!!!

Regarding post 399: Your statement “I make a living the old fashion way” does that mean prostitution, as this can mean anything meaning since one could take your statement “the old fashion way” and in fact point out that THIS IS one of the oldest professions in existence, according to MOST ALL, and legitimately ask you this, as you were not specific, leaving this wide open!!!

With regards to the matter of “Majority Rule” I take a moment, to remind you, that YOU it brought up, as a “measuring” or “divining” rod to tell what is Truth, when you expressed that everyone, the world, 100% etc. is against JW’s! Thus, it is you that brought this up! By contrast I mentioned that the concept of “Majority Rule” is not an “exact science” as at times, the minority view proves true! Also, I mentioned that in the Bible, God’s people have never been the “Majority” of which this is empirical FACT! I then drew upon this, to state, or support that if were using this reasoning as some sort of “divining rod”, “measuring stick” then know, that it does not work or apply to decide which people serve God with Spirit and Truth! You are beating a dead horse into the ground since you killed it in the first place!!! Now either you are doing this on purpose, or you lack the mental capacity to know what it is you express in the first place, meaning, you should keep within your abilities as you are making no sense in doing this!!!! In the end, all of the rhetoric in the world does not address the issues raised by me, with the supporting scriptures that establish that Jesus is NOT God, and that he has a God and Father, and that God is NOT Triune!!!!!! Nor, may I add, have the scriptures you have shown (NONE) support the same!!!!

Now onto your post 401 is VERY TELLING!!!!!!! Let us see if you even get this. In effect, you are going to MAN-HUMANS-NOTE-NOT BIBLE to establish what you believe! GET IT!!! MAN NOT BIBLE!!!!

NOTE: I hope you can get this point: You obviously went to HUMANS FOR SUPPORT FOR YOUR BELIEFS, which is the WRONG way to get these answers; and despite this, I will address your HUMANS below, while NEVER forgetting that we are supposed to be using God’s word the Bible to settling things!!!!

I take for granted that you “appear” to accurately quote "Polycarp (as I did not do the research for accuracy, for this reply) who himself stated, according to you, “believing in him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ”; therefore, this raises the question; who is this one that raised Jesus from the Dead? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! It does not state here, that Jesus is God or that God is a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! (YOU CAN”T, therego why you are doing this) He also stated, according to you, that Jesus is on a “throne at his right hand” so, at whose right hand is Jesus sitting, “It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! NOTE: Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! He also stated, according to you, that that all things were “subjected” to him, so, who decided to, and “subjected” all things to Jesus? Reply: It was the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not that Jesus did this to Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!! Also, who is it that will hold the “blood” of ones “responsible” note; it is the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

So far, everything you quoted from Polycarp is indeed found in scripture while nothing in scripture referred to here, or stated, tells you clearly that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!

Note, according to you, Polycarp’s other words: that he praises someone, “through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son” therefore, to whom is Polycarp addressing himself, it cannot be Jesus as this words do not do that? It was to the God and Father of Jesus!!! Not Jesus or part of Jesus or a Triune God!!! If you believe this, then establish it from scripture!!!

You then state, "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ”; please note how these words do nothing to establish your man made based beliefs, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as this clearly speaks of what is found in scripture, that Jesus has a God and Father, and that Jesus is a High Priest”; therefore, to whom is Jesus serving as High Priest to, and for whom, if your theory of man made beliefs, tells you that Jesus is God and that God is Triune, which by the way, nothing in the words of Polycarp quoted so far indicate this!!!! Thus Jesus is serving as High Priest according to your thinking, to himself and or part of himself! This is NOT BIBLICAL!!!!!

So, my question is: Did you read what you posted? Do you see, or can you tell me where in the words you quoted so far, you find the point that supports your belief in man made theology, creeds and dogma; where it that it states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune as so far, we have them spoken of here as separate!!!!!!!

Now, let us discuss the quotes you refer to as coming from Ignatius:

I note that another quote from you states of him, “having been entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ, who before the ages was with the Father and appeared at the end of time” and point out that his own statement speaks of Jesus Christ (obviously speaking to his pre-human existence that the Bible clearly mentions) that “was with the Father” speaking of them separately, as again, nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!

You then quote him as stating, “might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased him who sent him” thus according to these words (again not Bible but his words) that one is to be “fully convinced” that there is “ONE GOD” who “revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son” again, speaking of them separately as NOTHING in these words state, that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!! NOTHING!!!! Note, that to that, he is quoted as stating, “in every respect pleased him” so, who is being spoken of here, Jesus, was Jesus pleasing Jesus? Don’t be ridiculous, he was pleasing his God and Father, and that totally make’s sense!!!!! However, NOTHING here speaks to Jesus being God or that God is Triune, NOTHING!!!!!

You state, “Ignatius identifies Jesus as 'the Son', not 'the Father', respecting the usage of the apostles” and this is NOT at issue, what is at issue is whether or not the Bible teaches, or expresses, simply, clearly and plainly that Jesus is God and whether or not God is Triune, WHICH IT DOES NOT AND THAT YOU ARE IN EFFECT STATING, BY NOT DEALING WITH IT, IGNORING IT!!!!!

Note your further quote here, “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church that has found mercy in the majesty of the Father Most High and Jesus Christ his only Son” note now they are spoken of differently, “Father” AND “Jesus” and again nothing here states that Jesus is God or that God is Triune!!!! Now here, Ignatius, makes a LEAP of words, note: “…love for Jesus Christ our God…” however, there is NOTHING he refers to in the Bible to make this LEAP of words, rather, it is his writing, his opinion that does this!!!!! SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE HE GETS THIS AS CLEARLY AS HE STATED IT. Finally, by making such a LEAP-opinion, he contradicts what he states earlier in your quotes, and later, where he speaks of them the way the Bible speaks of them, separately, as the Son of God, while referring to the God and Father of Jesus, and again, nothing other than HIS own words, state this, as it is not clearly, simply and explicitly stated in the Bible!!!! Do you honestly NOT SEE THIS???

Now I quote you as quoting him where it is stated, “heartiest greetings blamelessly in Jesus Christ our God." (To the Romans, Preface)” thus show me where clearly, this statement is taken from in the Bible book of Romans and or else, where in the Bible it is found as clearly stated by him, and I will CONVERT ON THE SPOT, to whatever religion you are from!!!!! You can’t, as it is NOT found in the Book of Romans or anywhere else, the phrase (in any Bible) “Jesus Christ our God.” SHOW ME!!!!! Did you just take this at face value because you simply agree with it another human??? That is part of your problem!!!!! I take God’s word over man instead, and you have the unmitigated gall to blame me and or my beliefs???!!!

You go onto quote him again as stating, “name of Jesus Christ, Son of the Father” which in and of itself and by itself conflicts or contradicts with his made up statement above that “Jesus Christ our God” as though coming from the Bible!!!!!

You go on to quote him as stating, “as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things might be harmonious in unity” which again is Biblical, but nothing here states that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, though does in fact speak of them separately!!!

Lastly you quote, "Become imitators of Jesus Christ, just as he is of his Father." (To the Philadelphians, 7.2) and I first point out that this is NOT a book of the Bible; as it is NOT in your Bible!!!! Further, this plainly states we should imitate Jesus because “he is of his Father” thus showing they are not the same and again, nothing here shows that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune!!!!

Now here we move onto Clement of Rome:

Which you quote as stating, “…the ordinances and commandments given by God be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ…” which speaks to them being separate, as it speaks of God giving the commandments, “through” his Son, and states nothing about Jesus being God or that God is Triune!!!!! I find it interesting that you went to a Catholic Pope for your reference!!!! Where is the Bible in all of this??????? It does not take a genius to figure out from here, how these teachings then were transferred to other religions of Christendom!!! (PLEASE READ Acts 20:25-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Now onto Shepard of Hermas:

You really go out of your way here to not use the Bible, which act, by itself, should serve to tell you and the readers of this post, something about your believing in MAN over Bible and not very good at that!!!!

You quote him as clearly referring to Jesus as “the Son of God” and also, “The Son of God is far older than all his creation, with the result that he was the Father's counselor in his creation” which supports what is in the Bible about Jesus being older than all His Father and God’s Creation and that Jesus was the “counselor” in God’s creation, however, NOTHING here states that Jesus is God, but rather clearly as being separate, and nothing states that God is Triune!!!!!

Again, did you read your own post BEFORE posting it as all you do, is continue to support my posts above!!!!! Thank you as you are going through a lot of trouble to support what I have represented all along, that the Bible does not state Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Justin Martyr;

NOTE: that it is Justin Martyr, who uses the word “Triune” and reply; that such a word is not in he Bible!!!!! The remainder of your quote of him, you will note, he is speaking and interpreting or putting his personal spin on, his view that “we worship and adore” referring to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but again, where are we told to do this in the Bible? Sir, it is NOT Justin Martr that tells me how to worship God, it is God, that does so clearly and simply in the Bible!!! This is continuing proof that you are relying and placing your faith on men’s teachings over the Bible!!!!!

Now onto your quote of Athenagoras, but first, your statement, “The 'Oneness' Pentecostals - and also the Jehovah's Witnesses, who try to claim these guys too - base their case that the early writers were not Trinitarians on the fact that they did not employ the word 'Trinity'. But while early writers like Athenagoras (177 A.D.) may not employ the word, their statements of faith are triune in form: and reply, I here do not here speak to the view of the Oneness of Pentecostals, and in fact, nor I do so for the JW’s, as if you carefully read my posts, you will clearly see, that I am speaking as to Bible, and ONLY BIBLE, which for some reason you totally IGNORE in favor or humans!!!! I don’t!!!! Now as to JW’s and their literature, they have quoted these sources as I am doing here, by taking your word for accuracy (not in question, accepted) to make a point that nothing here, states that the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, and even for the couple or few times, we have found such a thing (Holy Scripture quoted above), it is NOT Bible that states this, but MAN!!!!!!

Here Athenagoras, states in part, “by whom the universe has been created through his logos” thus God created the universe “through” the logos, Christ, and this is what the Bible clearly states!!!! And also “Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son.” Both of these statements clearly speak of both of them, God and his Son Jesus, separately!!!!!! Nothing here states that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!!! I also find it interesting that he speaks of the “Holy Spirit” as an “effluence” of God, which means, as flowing or coming from God!!! Very Interesting!!!

Now here Athenagoras, states, “…God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?" and note that here he actually speaks of “both their power” and not THREE; and also, this phrase, “God the Father, and of God the Son” is something (besides being a dyslectic thought with substitution) that is clearly not found in the Bible, but as you are clearly adept as demonstrating, comes from man, human teaching and sayings, THOUGH NOT BIBLE!!!!!!!! And nothing here speaks of Jesus Being God and or that God is Triune!!!!!

Now onto Irenaues: You quote him here as stating, "This, then, is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the Father's dispensation; and reply, did you note the very first sentence that states, “God the Father, not made” why this distinction? Because the Son of God was made, was begotten, generated etc. (that is what the Bible simply tells us) which is a term that can never be applied to God-EVER!!!! Wow, this is all simply part of the words of my previous posts!!!!

Now onto to Irenaeus: Here you refer to the quote from Irenaeus, as stating, speaking to the early church, “[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God” which speaks of them separately as “One” God, and also “One” Son of God (NOTE: Ephesians 4:5-6) Now after this, NOTE how the word or term, “incarnate” is introduced, which is another one of those words and or phrases like “God the Son” that clearly does not exist in the Bible, NOTE AGAIN any Bible, but instead that is man made!!!! If you don’t agree, then SHOW ME where in the Bible it states that Jesus is God incarnate? You will be unable to do this as this is a man made teaching, dogma, creed and theology of humans!!!!! IT IS NOT BIBLE!!!! You continue to prove, that you believe in, is what man has taught over, or verses what is plainly, simply and clearly stated in the Bible; and thus I and those like me MUST BE wrong for rejecting human thinking over what the Bible clearly, simply and plainly states and teaches over HUMANS!!!! Sir, you have your priorities WRONG as this reply and your words are proving!!!!! You believe in man, and then attribute it to God! Well, good for you!!!!

Back to Irenaues: who states, according to you; “and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus” and note, that this too, regarding Jesus ascension into heaven “in the flesh”, is NOT Bible, but is man’s teachings and is contradicted by the Bible’s own words at 1 Corinthians 15:50, that clearly tell you that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” along with the previous verses in Corinthians mentioning the distinction between a “natural body” (or as some Bibles state it, “physical” body) and a “spiritual one.” Thus again, this is a human opinion, thinking, creed, dogma, theology that is NOT found in the Bible, as the Bible contradicts this!!!! The same holds true of this non Biblical statement of Irenaues, “, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father” that refers to Jesus as God, while at the same time continuing to discuss the Father, separately!!!! You will easily note that nothing in these quotes demonstrates-that Jesus is God, and or that God is Triune FROM THE BIBLE, but yes, it does, from MAN!!!!!! This is the distinction!!!! You have to see that, even if you don’t agree with me, and believe in this doctrine!!!! It is man stating this and NOT God!!!!

Now onto your post 402:

Your first words here are very telling and support your complete reliance on Man and not God’s Word, the Bible, when you say, “Arianism developed...” note who or what developed, NOT BIBLE but again MAN MADE THINKING!!!!!!! Thus no one is doubting history here at all, nor is it the point mentioned in the posts by me that started these exchanges, wherein I demonstrate and point out, that the Bible does not state that Jesus is God nor does it ever teach that God is Triune, as that is a MAN MADE teaching!!!

While I very much appreciate your telling us that “Arius taught” it has nothing to do with what is found and or taught in the Bible as Arius is expressing “his” thoughts, views and opinions which are NOT clearly found in the Bible!!!!!

While Arius’ thought or opinion, “Therefore, God produced Christ the Son out of nothing as the first and greatest creation” can be shown to be Biblical, his thought-opinion that “The Son is then the one who created the universe” is NOT!!!! It is HIS opinion!!! Can’t you see this?????? The same holds true for all of his other non Bible-based comments, about the relationship of God and his Son (the word “relationship” itself, is stating that they are not the same as if they were, there would be no need for a “relationship”) and as to the Son being “incarnate” again, this is opinion and not Bible etc. The same holds true for what they held as “Though Christ was a creation, because of his great position and authority, he was to be worshipped and even looked upon as God. Some Arians even held that the Holy Spirit was the first and greatest creation of the Son” thus this sentence (again not Biblical at all) while admitting that Jesus was created, (as we cannot say this of the one who created Jesus-God) as to Jesus being worshipped this is also, man made as the Bible in Greek does not state this at all!!!! As to “the Holy Spirit” being the “first and greatest creation of the Son” this too is a man made teaching (NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE) as well, and recall these words, “Arius taught” thus, where is God’s word in any and all of this?????? The same can be said for the remainder of the opinions expressed by him!!! Thus, no one is doubting history of all of this here at all, nor is it the point of discussion, which is that the Bible does not state that Jesus is God nor does it teach that God is Triune, because it is MAN MADE teaching’s that do this!!!

With regards, to Monarchianism, Dynamic Monarchianism and Modal Monarchianism and Modalism; NOTE: ALL OF THIS IS MAN MADE AND IS NOT BIBLE AT ALL, thus irrelevant from the standpoint of the Bible as it all goes to discuss, refute, revise and or explain what is NOT CLEARY or EXPLICITY taught in the Bible to begin with at all, but instead, it is designed to do so, from a human-to-human-standpoint, meaning, man’s opinions, that have become today’s creeds, dogma and theology, which again springs from HUMANS and not from the Bible!!!!!

Onto your post 403:

You have indeed done as you state here, “I have posted some of the early views of the Trinity” which, whether you want to admit it or not, clearly demonstrate that these views and others above, CLEARLY come from HUMANS and NOT THE BIBLE!!!! This is the total demarcation line between us!!!!!

You support this not only by what you clearly express and provide above as quotes but also by your own words here, “Unfortunately when discussing any doctrine, it is almost impossible to separate the doctrine from the religion that holds to that theory” and state, that is the problem as you yourself have demonstrated, that in the end, shows it ALL, comes from HUMANS and NOT BIBLE!!!!

Thus after all of this, for you to state, “The real question that must be answered is; “was Jesus Christ created?” or “Was Jesus Christ the creator?”….. IS NOT AT ALL WHAT IS THE QUESTION AS THE ISSUE IS THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT PLAINLY, SIMPLY, CLEARLY OR GRAMMATICALLY STATE THAT JESUS IS GOD AND OR THAT GOD IS TRIUNE, INSTEAD IT IS MAN THAT DOES THIS.

As to your questions, however, the Bible does indeed provide answers this for them, so we do not have to guess, or act as though it does not in order to make this up as we go, kinda what the ones quoted above did! It is theology, creeds and dogma, teachings of humans that allows for this to be an issue and controversy!!! NOT BIBLE!!! The Bible states God had no beginning, and Jesus has had a beginning, and that God created the universe and that his son was there with him, and that God did all of these things, through and for his Son PERIOD!!! Whether or not you accept this, has to do with accepting the scriptures as the “final” and “only” authority over established historic human thinking and opinions!!!!!

Thus your statement, “The crisis that caused the schism in 325, was not a discussion/debate of the existence of the “Trinity” to establish the doctrine itself, was well-established and understood by all” is NOT the issue, as the issue is, whether or not this type of thinking and dogma is Bible based or man made, and the evidence clearly shows that is it man made!!!! Thus it is well established from Man’s human standpoint and not God or his Bible!!!

Did you notice the absence in the quotes above by you, on the various things expounded upon, (by humans) that had a couple or few scriptural references, and that these few references, actually state the opposite and contradict human thinking and opinions! Therefore, this thinking was indeed then established, but NOT from or by the Bible INDEED!!!

Thus you recommendation “I strongly recommend you read it” had been done by me before, on this and many other subject matters, as demonstrated by my carefully reading, what you put forth here above, that demonstrate that ALL the teachings you believe on this are from humans and not the BIBLE!!!!

As to your last statement; “As for studying the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, there are many excellent sites on the internet. In book form, you may want to see “The Kingdom of the Cults” by Walter Martin. Mr. Martin takes on the many false man-made doctrines of that religion and quite handedly refutes them. You may also find the many ex-jw web sites to contain useful information. Josh McDowell has an excellent book on the subject, entitled “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic.”” And reply; I have read just about everything on JW’s (and note this is NOT the subject matter, despite your continually referring to it) like “The Kingdom of the Cults” “Doctrine of Devils” etc. etc. etc. as there are several!!! This is NOTHING new to me, but is food for fodder for those who want to believe this.

CASE AND POINT: Had Judas Iscariot written a book called “Jesus is NOT the Messiah, I know I was one of the Twelve” I reasonably assert two things; 1. None of the Apostles would have the need to buy and read this book from a traitor with a personal agenda (kill the Christ) and; 2. It would probably had been a beset seller among MOST ALL 100%, of the Jews that killed him!

Fellow, unlike you, I have read and STUDIED materials like this and more, but in the end, can tell you, that you will always be left with what I point out here above, in this reply post; that of what the Bible plainly, clearly and simply states, verses the insistence of people like you, relying on Human thinking and leaping over to boldly state things that are from the Bible when in reality they are clearly NOT!!!!!

BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME!!!! You have been exposed; you must have thought NO ONE CAN READ, including me, and while I cannot do a lot of things, reading is NOT one of them!!!!!

Nothing you state above goes to refute that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, instead you have clearly supported and demonstrated that what you believe on this is FROM HUMANS and NOT BIBLE!!!

BRAVO, keep opening your mouth, as your foot may actually cut you one of those many times!!!!

TP


P.S. As for TC you know less than this person and what is more, it makes you stand out as a very special and ignorant person!

Also, Instead of you folks JUST assuming that the information presented is wrong, how about taking the time to truly understand where I am coming from (like I did for you) and then SHOM ME FROM THE BIBLE where I have erred!!!

[praetorian]

Turtle:

Your two posts above are completely wrong as they provide parts of a complete picture which is why you are completely wrong!

Read, actually read my post to TATM.

And if you are going to post here on point to this, then you should be fair and post the replies I have provided you via the mailing system on this board, concerning these same topics so that others can see the replies!!!! And if you do, do so in whole, entirely as I have copies of them.

I have never stated that certain scriptures were not prophetic about Jesus, it is the separating of them, God and Jesus when referring to one and or the other that I have replied to on point!!!

TP

[praetorian]

the jws preach a messege that is pure trash


Since they only preach ALL the words of Jesus and his Father you are trashing the messenger!

TP

[turtle]

Praetorian,

I am not like you and post people mail messages in general unless it is a detegoratory statement that needs address by the admin.

Now Praetorian, You emails I can disprove you on all accounts, i don't want a Holy war, I am stating some evidence I did not present to you in this intire form. So please reread what I posted and then do your rebuttal if you wish. You share email that I write then you are paying the piper or maybe not depending on what it is and why.

[praetorian]

Praetorian,

I am not like you and post people mail messages in general unless it is a detegoratory statement that needs address by the admin.

Now Praetorian, You emails I can disprove you on all accounts, i don't want a Holy war, I am stating some evidence I did not present to you in this intire form. So please reread what I posted and then do your rebuttal if you wish. You share email that I write then you are paying the piper or maybe not depending on what it is and why.

Turtle:

I have read this before and I have dealt with it before, it is you that could not have read my reply above to TATM, in the time it took to for you to post the same.

BOTTOM LINE: The Bible makes clear that Jesus has a God and Father, and does not mention that God is Triune, and also that the God and Father of Jesus never had a beginning and Jesus did!

If you cannot SHOW ME from the Bible, then you should not reply as all you do is post scriptures that prove that Jesus is God’s Son and then you tell me that these same words actually mean that Jesus is God and TRUST YOU, despite the scriptures NOT STATING THIS!

There is an obvious disconnect with people like you who think like this when the Bible says otherwise!!!!

Also, I have no idea (that is no unusual for you write in a confusing manner) what you mean by "paying the piper?"

TP

[turtle]

Turtle:

I have read this before and I have dealt with it before, it is you that could not have read my reply above to TATM, in the time it took to for you to post the same.

BOTTOM LINE: The Bible makes clear that Jesus has a God and Father, and does not mention that God is Triune, and also that the God and Father of Jesus never had a beginning and Jesus did!

If you cannot SHOW ME from the Bible, then you should not reply as all you do is post scriptures that prove that Jesus is God’s Son and then you tell me that these same words actually mean that Jesus is God and TRUST YOU, despite the scriptures NOT STATING THIS!

There is an obvious disconnect with people like you who think like this when the Bible says otherwise!!!!

Also, I have no idea (that is no unusual for you write in a confusing manner) what you mean by "paying the piper?"

TP

I did show you by using KJV and quoted it so you could read or hear it, if you choose not to read you can be blind all you like. It does not change Jesus is the second person of the Trinity

[praetorian]

I did show you by using KJV and quoted it so you could read or hear it, if you choose not to read you can be blind all you like. It does not change Jesus is the second person of the Trinity

Turtle:

You know the difference between you, and TC and TATM:

Unlike you and TC that just say things to say things, often that make any sense; you should try sometime and have an 8th grader or less, read what you post and you will see what I mean; TATM, despite my vehemently disagreeing with him, at the very least, usually attempts to explain where he is coming from and when you call him on something just is based on “feelings” meaning a completely subjective thought, he does not try to make it worse by covering it over, as though it some how makes sense!

You and TC share this in common, you make MANY obvious statements, and worse, you do so, as though you were the final authority from God, despite my or someone else showing you scriptures to the contrary!

You do not reason well at all and that is why John 8:42-46, especially 46 applies well to both of you, as you are unable to hear the true sayings of God! Good for you!

If you are going to state something in opposition to someone by way of a reply, then at least try to understand where they are coming from, as simply stating ‘I am right’ or here is this scripture that proves this or that, that has many others that contradict it deal with the contradiction as well as your referring to other scriptures while ignoring the ones that contradict only supports your ignorance and that you are simply WRONG!!!

TP


P.S. Show me ONE scripture no wait, one half of one scripture that says the Jesus is the "second person of the Trinity" if not, then STOP the Madness!!!!

[praetorian]

whos JESUS are you referring to?.. i get the sense that you do not DO NOT BELEIVE IN THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST do you now just beleive that there are three offices? for the last time GOD IS ON HIS THRONE AND JESUS IS RIGHT NOW SEATED NEXT TO THE FATHER. AT THE END TIME WHEN JESUS JUDGES THE CHURCH FOR REWARDS HE WILL SIT ON HIS OWN THRONES you are one mixed up child


TC or Turtle as you both suffer from the same thing:

Quote: (In case you don’t get it?) “whos JESUS are you referring to?” REPLY: Where, what scripture are you specifically referring to?

QUOTE “.. i get the sense that you do not DO NOT BELEIVE IN THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST do you now just beleive that there are three offices?” and REPLY: You sense wrong and cannot get that from what I wrote. I believe as the Bible states, that you have God who had no beginning, and he has a Son, that he created-had a beginning and that they are totally separate Spirit Persons! I do believe and accept the Holy Spirit (NOT GHOST, as God is not connected to Casper the friendly Ghost) and that it is NOT a person, but God’s Power, that comes from him! Everything I stated here has scriptures to back this up and if you find one that contradicts it, then you need to examine carefully without your feelings and emotions!!!!

QUOTE: “for the last time GOD IS ON HIS THRONE AND JESUS IS RIGHT NOW SEATED NEXT TO THE FATHER” and Reply: If what you say here is TRUE, and I AGREE, then they cannot be the SAME PERSON or this statement would not make any sense!!!!

QUOTE: “AT THE END TIME WHEN JESUS JUDGES THE CHURCH FOR REWARDS HE WILL SIT ON HIS OWN THRONES you are one mixed up child” and REPLY, yes Jesus has a throne, like God has a throne, however, you cannot ignore the scriptures that plainly tell us that some of those from here on earth will also SIT ON THRONES with him (See Luke 22:28-30 ETC. ETC. ETC.) to also judge and rule as Kings and Priests!!!

I am not confused; it is YOU that is confused!!!!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

P.S. As for TC you know less than this person and what is more, it makes you stand out as a very special and ignorant person!

Also, Instead of you folks JUST assuming that the information presented is wrong, how about taking the time to truly understand where I am coming from (like I did for you) and then SHOM ME FROM THE BIBLE where I have erred!!!

I make my living the old fashion. Unlike yourself, I do not depend on welfare. I have clearly disproved your theory and will continue to do so. Do I expert you to admit being wrong? Are you kidding? Like I said, anyone who wants to learn the truth can turn to any of the excellent ex-jw web sites.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ex-jw&ei=utf-8&fr=b1ie7

http://www.waltermartin.com/cults.html

[praetorian]

TATM:

Wow, you completely IGNORE my posts, and go to a former JW site! NICE, really NICE but NOT, as it does nothing, nothing to refute what I have shown in scripture, and that your own post of some early so-called Christians, that do NOT support your position, but instead, you are left with the FACT, whether you like it or not that the Bible does not clearly, simply and or plainly state, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as it states the opposite!!!

FACT!!!

Even if you “assume” (and you do know what one does when they assume don’t you) that this Martin fellow is right, it does NOTHING, I REPEAT NOTHING to address that you are unable to demonstrate that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, but your own quotes demonstrate that God is NOT Triune and that Jesus is God’s Son a separate person, albeit spirit person from his God and Father!!!

My tax bill alone on only minute part of my holdings pays for your existence and probably several those like you!!!

Now, when you post try to speak ENGLISH, as when you state, “Do I expert you to admit being wrong?” I have no idea what you mean though the last thing I want to do is ASSUME like you do and IGNORE!!!!

Nice job, NOT!!!

TP

P.S. Where is your PART 2 as your PART 1 IMPLIES!!!!!

[turtle]

The problem with you praetorian, I have shown you several so praetorian you are nothing but an atheist. You know you mention writing like eight grader will you read like a first grader.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

Wow, you completely IGNORE my posts, and go to a former JW site! NICE, really NICE but NOT, as it does nothing, nothing to refute what I have shown in scripture, and that your own post of some early so-called Christians, that do NOT support your position, but instead, you are left with the FACT, whether you like it or not that the Bible does not clearly, simply and or plainly state, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, as it states the opposite!!!

FACT!!!

Even if you “assume” (and you do know what one does when they assume don’t you) that this Martin fellow is right, it does NOTHING, I REPEAT NOTHING to address that you are unable to demonstrate that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune, but your own quotes demonstrate that God is NOT Triune and that Jesus is God’s Son a separate person, albeit spirit person from his God and Father!!!

My tax bill alone on only minute part of my holdings pays for your existence and probably several those like you!!!

Now, when you post try to speak ENGLISH, as when you state, “Do I expert you to admit being wrong?” I have no idea what you mean though the last thing I want to do is ASSUME like you do and IGNORE!!!!

Nice job, NOT!!!

TP

P.S. Where is your PART 2 as your PART 1 IMPLIES!!!!!


heheheheheheheheheheheee. You should compare a search on ex-christian. That, alone, speaks volumnes for your religion.

[truth_child]

amen tatm on this we agree preatorium is a mixed up child

[praetorian]

The problem with you praetorian, I have shown you several so praetorian you are nothing but an atheist. You know you mention writing like eight grader will you read like a first grader.

Turtle:

As usual your reply makes no sense and does nothing to reply to the issue at hand regarding the Bible not explicitly, simply, plainly or grammatically state, IN ANY BIBLE that "Jesus is God" or that "God is Triune" as the Bible clearly shows the opposite and if by my choosing to stick to the Bible, I am what you represent, then know that you have no comprehension of the English language, and that I am in good company sticking to the Bible only and not human thinking!

TP


P.S. Switch to Comcast it might help!

[praetorian]

heheheheheheheheheheheee. You should compare a search on ex-christian. That, alone, speaks volumnes for your religion.

TATM:

Like your the fans here, as usual your reply makes no sense and does nothing to reply to the issue at hand regarding the Bible not explicitly, simply, plainly or grammatically state, IN ANY BIBLE that "Jesus is God" or that "God is Triune" as the Bible clearly shows the opposite and if by my choosing to stick to the Bible, I am what you represent, then know that you have no comprehension of the English language, and that I am in good company sticking to the Bible only and not human thinking!

It also ignores your own words that we are to aware a "part 2."

You laugh alone, as there are many millions of others who laugh back!

Using a person like a "Judas" makes you comfortable, then that is fine, it just means your bar for quality is lower than those who don't and are NOT JW's!

Such is life and your right to opinions, which you clearly give credence to over God's own word or that of his own Son!

TP

[praetorian]

amen tatm on this we agree preatorium is a mixed up child

TC:

I continue to be confused; it is you that identifies yourself as a “child” by NAME!

And again for, Like your the fans here, as usual your reply makes no sense and does nothing to reply to the issue at hand regarding the Bible not explicitly, simply, plainly or grammatically state, IN ANY BIBLE that "Jesus is God" or that "God is Triune" as the Bible clearly shows the opposite and if by my choosing to stick to the Bible, I am what you represent, then know that you have no comprehension of the English language, and that I am in good company sticking to the Bible only and not human thinking!

Your purposely choosing to stay in your ignorance is simply not a good thing in this matter and or any other!

You like TATM, and Turtle, do have your right to opinions, which you all clearly give credence to over God's own word or that of his own Son!

No, I am not mixed up, my mind is made on to reply ONLY on God’s word and not yours and those of other humans!!!

TP

[turtle]

TP says:


P.S. Switch to Comcast it might help!

Don't get me started.

I use Bible, and can even a regions christian station now with this digital coverter box, use to only get one station a problem in rural areas, I wish we had more it would cut my tv bill. And did you hear about smithfield hams plant shutting down.

[praetorian]

Don't get me started.

I use Bible, and can even a regions christian station now with this digital coverter box, use to only get one station a problem in rural areas, I wish we had more it would cut my tv bill. And did you hear about smithfield hams plant shutting down.


Turtle:

You know what you sadly have in common with Satan, you both use the Bible as a reference, good for you! However, just like him you use it to fit what you want it to fit, or believe, instead of you letting the Bible correct your thinking, ALL of the scriptures even the ones that contradict, placing your thinking and belief system above the word of God! (1 Corinthians 4:6) I state this because God himself tells you that Jesus is his Son, and Jesus tells us that not only is his Father greater than he-Jesus is, but that he has the same God and Father we do!!!

It is you that use the scriptures like Satan used them against Jesus (the wrong way) to continue to believe what you want as you simply CANNOT accept the remote possibility that you just MAY be wrong as the scriptures do not lie, people do!

Other than that, I hope you fix your computer and deal with your problems successfully!

TP

[turtle]

Turtle:

You know what you sadly have in common with Satan, you both use the Bible as a reference, good for you! However, just like him you use it to fit what you want it to fit, or believe, instead of you letting the Bible correct your thinking, ALL of the scriptures even the ones that contradict, placing your thinking and belief system above the word of God! (1 Corinthians 4:6) I state this because God himself tells you that Jesus is his Son, and Jesus tells us that not only is his Father greater than he-Jesus is, but that he has the same God and Father we do!!!

It is you that use the scriptures like Satan used them against Jesus (the wrong way) to continue to believe what you want as you simply CANNOT accept the remote possibility that you just MAY be wrong as the scriptures do not lie, people do!

Other than that, I hope you fix your computer and deal with your problems successfully!

TP

Tony are you ignoring the facts. Who placed Jesus on the Throne in heaven.

Hebrews 1:3-10 KJV
(3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:


Verse three of this passage He sat down on the right hand side of Majesty on High, refering to God.

Verse 4, Jesus is greater then an angel

Verse 5 is a reference to Psalms 2.

Verse 8 God is still speaking to the Son and calls Jesus God. Making Him king in the kingdom. Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in verse 4.

Also Christ in Verse 10 is Creator. Meaning Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. which is a verse in Hebrews


Hebrews 13:8 KJV
(8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Also we see the Son of Man when He talks to Abraham, also the fiery furnace in Daniel. Christ as been since the beginning. And even was in the old testament.

[praetorian]

Tony are you ignoring the facts. Who placed Jesus on the Throne in heaven.

Hebrews 1:3-10 KJV
(3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:


Verse three of this passage He sat down on the right hand side of Majesty on High, refering to God.

Verse 4, Jesus is greater then an angel

Verse 5 is a reference to Psalms 2.

Verse 8 God is still speaking to the Son and calls Jesus God. Making Him king in the kingdom. Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in verse 4.

Also Christ in Verse 10 is Creator. Meaning Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. which is a verse in Hebrews


Hebrews 13:8 KJV
(8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Also we see the Son of Man when He talks to Abraham, also the fiery furnace in Daniel. Christ as been since the beginning. And even was in the old testament.


Turtle:

Like I said it is YOU! You cannot read! Look at your first opening line, question, “Who placed Jesus on the Throne in heaven” and the answer is God-YHWH as it cannot be Jesus, placing Jesus on the throne!!!!!!!! If that is what you believe, and it is, you are out of our mind, and if in mind, then know it is NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES OR SAYS PERIOD!!! YOU MAKE NO SENSE!!!!!

Hebrews 1:3-10, compares Jesus (not God) to the Angels and speaks of Jesus and God separately and NOT as a Triune God, note:

3. Speaks of Jesus sitting “at the right hand of God” so he Jesus cannot be God!
4. This speaks of Jesus being made “better than the angels” and this cannot be speaking with reference to God as he is greater and “BETTER” than all of his creation, thus this is speaking and comparing Jesus, not God to the angels! Also, now I have a question for you; BEFORE Jesus became better than the angels what was he to them again BEFORE?
5. This verse clearly compares Jesus again to the angels, when it asks “For unto which of the angels” as this cannot be speaking of God as it makes no sense! Also, this same verse calls or refers to Jesus who is being compared to Angels, Son of God!!!!
6. Refers to Jesus separately from himself God by calling him firstborn! Also, other Bible’s do not agree with the rendering here of “worship” as the word in Greek is Obeisance and is the same word used for Peter when Cornelius fell down at his feet! NO DIFFERENT! However assuming you are correct, it does not call Jesus God nor state that God is Triune, you must imply this fro the word “worship” that is NOT correct!!!!!
7. Not at issue!
8. This verse reads differently in different Bibles and also at Psalms where this is quoted as it first has application to God speaking to David which tells you that it is NOT written correctly, and then has application in a secondary way, via prophesy God’s Son Jesus!
9. This verse calls tells you that Jesus has a God!!!!!! As that is why God “anointed” or chose Jesus, as Jesus did not choose Jesus, as this makes no sense!

You do not know the scriptures, and keep your beliefs despite the contradictions your beliefs pose with the scriptures above!!!!! As the do not all support your thinking, even if you THINK you are correct!!!!

The remainder of your post only supports that Jesus is NOT GOD and does nothing to prove that God is Triune, NOTHING, but the opposite!!!

TP

[turtle]

Turtle:

Like I said it is YOU! You cannot read! Look at your first opening line, question, “Who placed Jesus on the Throne in heaven” and the answer is God-YHWH as it cannot be Jesus, placing Jesus on the throne!!!!!!!! If that is what you believe, and it is, you are out of our mind, and if in mind, then know it is NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES OR SAYS PERIOD!!! YOU MAKE NO SENSE!!!!!

Hebrews 1:3-10, compares Jesus (not God) to the Angels and speaks of Jesus and God separately and NOT as a Triune God, note:

3. Speaks of Jesus sitting “at the right hand of God” so he Jesus cannot be God!
4. This speaks of Jesus being made “better than the angels” and this cannot be speaking with reference to God as he is greater and “BETTER” than all of his creation, thus this is speaking and comparing Jesus, not God to the angels! Also, now I have a question for you; BEFORE Jesus became better than the angels what was he to them again BEFORE?
5. This verse clearly compares Jesus again to the angels, when it asks “For unto which of the angels” as this cannot be speaking of God as it makes no sense! Also, this same verse calls or refers to Jesus who is being compared to Angels, Son of God!!!!
6. Refers to Jesus separately from himself God by calling him firstborn! Also, other Bible’s do not agree with the rendering here of “worship” as the word in Greek is Obeisance and is the same word used for Peter when Cornelius fell down at his feet! NO DIFFERENT! However assuming you are correct, it does not call Jesus God nor state that God is Triune, you must imply this fro the word “worship” that is NOT correct!!!!!
7. Not at issue!
8. This verse reads differently in different Bibles and also at Psalms where this is quoted as it first has application to God speaking to David which tells you that it is NOT written correctly, and then has application in a secondary way, via prophesy God’s Son Jesus!
9. This verse calls tells you that Jesus has a God!!!!!! As that is why God “anointed” or chose Jesus, as Jesus did not choose Jesus, as this makes no sense!

You do not know the scriptures, and keep your beliefs despite the contradictions your beliefs pose with the scriptures above!!!!! As the do not all support your thinking, even if you THINK you are correct!!!!

The remainder of your post only supports that Jesus is NOT GOD and does nothing to prove that God is Triune, NOTHING, but the opposite!!!

TP


Tony you did not read scripture that I provided for you and it is KJV. Second you read and did not tell me my question was wrong the fact is Jesus took the seat at the right hand of the Father. You fail to read so I fail to read any more of your blubbering. For you read what you want and say what you want despite what is obvious to all readers including an eighth grader. It so sad tony. I pray blinders willb be off your eyes.

You really have a problem that Jesus is God. God's God. God the Father adores His Son and the Son adores His Father. Now look at these next verse Tony more proof.

Hebrews 3:4-7 KJV
(4) For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
(5) And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
(6) But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
(7) Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

John 14:1-4 KJV
(1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
(2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(4) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


Christ in these next verse declares He is the Father.

John 14:6-7 KJV
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


What it say in verse 7 if ye know him and have seen him. So you see God for Christ is the Father.

[easeltine]

"...plainly or grammatically state, IN ANY BIBLE that "Jesus is God"

Exodus 20:3 - "You shall have no other gods before Me."

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And His Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God..."

The facts are that we are forbidden to worship another God in Scripture, other then Jehovah God.

Due to the Law of God that states that there is no other God one must come to the conclusion of the Trinity when we look at the following verses.

Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

John 1:1-3 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

The Bible says the following regarding the Word, that is God:

John 1:14 - "And the Word bacame flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Only God is the Creator. Verse 14 DOES NOT SAY THAT THE WORD WENT INTO JESUS, RATHER THAT THE WORD BECAME JESUS!

Isaiah 44:6 above made it very clear that there is only one First and Last, and only one Almighty.

In Revelation 1:8 Jesus Christ says this about Himself, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty."

There can only be one Almighty God by definition of the word Almighty. This is why the logic of The Athanasian Creed says, "The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Spirit is Almighty, and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty." Logic is that there can not be more than one Almighty.

There are many Scriptures like this, and Dr. Walter Martin's book, "The Kingdom of the Cult," is very good on this subject. One should get the new edition by the General Editor Ravi Zacharias

[easeltine]

Tony,

I have told our lady JW Accountant at work that I debate on the Internet a person who is a nice JW. She asked me if you were a real JW or a fake one. I told her that you were a real one, I knew it, and a very nice person. It's just that your Arius-type ideas are wrong, they were wrong in 325 A.D., and they are wrong today. Jesus Christ is as the Creed says, true God of true God, Begotten, not made, of One Substance with the Father.

[turtle]

Hi Easeltine,

How are you doing? I was looking at the way you worded some things. And a few threw me for a second. It must be to early for me. Word Became flesh, ever realize the Son of Man walked the earth before this time period. It really unnerved me at that conception. I mean I knew but did not grasp it. Okay I did not take hold of it. God walking in the garden, God the Father or God the Son?

Some groups do not believe in hell, or fiery pit. What is hell though it is a place without God. In the story of Noah, God gave man 120 years to get right with Him before the flood came. I wonder how long we have in this era of grace before Christ returns? The Bible is clear no one knows the hour but the Father. Christ knew but those who hear did not understand that at the time. It kind of deep don't you think. Christ is the everlasting Father.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I am curious, OH! so great King of Waffles, which is worst? The false doctrines of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society or the man-made doctrines of the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism? When, oh pray tell, is crap crap?

[truth_child]

hell is place of eternal toment in the flames of fire and is not just a conception of an idea. GOD THE FATHER WALKED THE EARTH , THE SON WAS MADE FLESH AND LIVED AMONG us and died for us

[turtle]

Back your statement up with scripture truth child. If God the Father is spirit and not flesh? Or is God the Father flesh? No where does it say the Father was flesh. Now dig out your ditch and try again tc.

[truth_child]

and no where did i say that THE FATHERE WAS FLESH HE Walked the earth in the cool of the day so turtle i know that you are a murrayite poseing as many differnt ones

[truth_child]

turtle be good till you come back useing another name over at the other site but dont worry we will know it is you

[dobman53]

TATM:

I've noticed where quite often through your normal happen stance's with posted communications you'll envariably bring to everyones attension your library books of Saints.

Of course everyone pretty much knows these books are very special to you, as they have in essance formed the inner-core of your entire self worth.

At this particular moment I do have one question I might ask?

Back in about 300AD or close there to it, they started in with the Cannonization of the Bible. During this proccess some books were let go while others remained. It was during those very times when all the books were under investigation as to weather or not they were devine writtings, or just the handy work of men. As a matter of fact it was during those very time's when the Devinity of Christ was at the very forefront of all their thought's. As the actual proccess in place at that time was if wether or not a book proclaimed the Devinity. If they interpretated a book to then be worthy of the devinity it was kept. Then again should they interpret a book as not proclaiming Christ being the all devine, that book was then dropped from concideration.

What I'm driving at TATM is,, Christ was never thought of or even so much as concidered as God the father, until after about 300AD.

Since those very times from about 300AD onward they've mostly continued on to this day with one guy out there always trying to out do the next guy.

It all falls back to the classical art's of one upsmanship that drove these men to act accordingly as to how they did. If one of their competitors said Christ was the more holy, why the other would imediately turn right around and proclaim something even more holy. All done in the name of this unending back and forth one-upsmanship roll playing.

Jesus is Gods only begotten son. Jesus was made in Gods image, If you see the son's face you've seen the face of God. These statements seem to forever get a whole lot of people completely mixed-up.

Gods hand was instrumental in Christ's coming to be. Just as Christ's hand was instrumental in our making, included with this making is the makings of all thing's directly from Christ's hand.

Jesus loves the Father with all his might and soul. Jesus deserves far more than just a pat on the back from us. When we bow down before God's thrown, Jesus will be seated in his most deserved position. At the right hand of God all mighty. There is one God, and that one God is the father.

Dob!!

[dobman53]

Aryan:

Are you still out there spouting off that God is a torturer of mankind. Insisting that God is going to fry people forever and ever??

When you spout of such hatefull thoughts about God being the torturer of all torturers known to mankind. You endlessly talking about how God's going to fry people in hell fire, while the whole time acting as if God would be having a smile on his face while doing it. Aryan has it ever crossed your mind about being far more the better off if you just crawled off into a hole, to then die in shame?? Or should maybe you be tortured forever??

Dob!!

[oneway]

and no where did i say that THE FATHERE WAS FLESH HE Walked the earth in the cool of the day so turtle i know that you are a murrayite poseing as many differnt ones


Arron, I have no clue why Turtle doesn't have you on her ignore list, nor can I figure out why she even gives you the time of day, given the way you speak to her and the many things you falsely accuse her of without one shred of proof.

[truth_child]

she does so because she is a murrayite beleiver that is poseing as a friend of cb

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

I've noticed where quite often through your normal happen stance's with posted communications you'll envariably bring to everyones attension your library books of Saints.

Of course everyone pretty much knows these books are very special to you, as they have in essance formed the inner-core of your entire self worth.

At this particular moment I do have one question I might ask?

Back in about 300AD or close there to it, they started in with the Cannonization of the Bible. During this proccess some books were let go while others remained. It was during those very times when all the books were under investigation as to weather or not they were devine writtings, or just the handy work of men. As a matter of fact it was during those very time's when the Devinity of Christ was at the very forefront of all their thought's. As the actual proccess in place at that time was if wether or not a book proclaimed the Devinity. If they interpretated a book to then be worthy of the devinity it was kept. Then again should they interpret a book as not proclaiming Christ being the all devine, that book was then dropped from concideration.

What I'm driving at TATM is,, Christ was never thought of or even so much as concidered as God the father, until after about 300AD.

Since those very times from about 300AD onward they've mostly continued on to this day with one guy out there always trying to out do the next guy.

It all falls back to the classical art's of one upsmanship that drove these men to act accordingly as to how they did. If one of their competitors said Christ was the more holy, why the other would imediately turn right around and proclaim something even more holy. All done in the name of this unending back and forth one-upsmanship roll playing.

Jesus is Gods only begotten son. Jesus was made in Gods image, If you see the son's face you've seen the face of God. These statements seem to forever get a whole lot of people completely mixed-up.

Gods hand was instrumental in Christ's coming to be. Just as Christ's hand was instrumental in our making, included with this making is the makings of all thing's directly from Christ's hand.

Jesus loves the Father with all his might and soul. Jesus deserves far more than just a pat on the back from us. When we bow down before God's thrown, Jesus will be seated in his most deserved position. At the right hand of God all mighty. There is one God, and that one God is the father.

Dob!!

Those books keep me from falling sucker to the same trap as yourself. Jesus Christ has never been, before or after 300 AD, considered God the Father to any Christian. As has been clearly illustrated, the Holy Trinity has never been questioned by Christianity. The question you allude to in 325 AD concerned the substance of Jeus Christ. Arius held to the belief that he was a created being, not the Creator. The Bible you refer to belongs to the Roman Church (the Latin Vulgate). Even the Roman church has abandoned that document.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Arron, I have no clue why Turtle doesn't have you on her ignore list, nor can I figure out why she even gives you the time of day, given the way you speak to her and the many things you falsely accuse her of without one shred of proof.

I would concur with Mr. Arron's assessment. Under another thread, the Rev. Ms. Turtle had the insane claim that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

hell is place of eternal toment in the flames of fire and is not just a conception of an idea. GOD THE FATHER WALKED THE EARTH , THE SON WAS MADE FLESH AND LIVED AMONG us and died for us

Stick to your guns, Mr. Arron. These folks are trying to past off the error of total annihilation. hehehehehehehehehe fun thing about old what was his name?

[oneway]

I would concur with Mr. Arron's assessment. Under another thread, the Rev. Ms. Turtle had the insane claim that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit.



Well I don't know about all of that, but at least she doesn't seem like she has fallen sucker for the gap theory like our friend arron has. And as far as your claim up above...my guess would be that you're misunderstanding her. Personally, I feel that Turtle has a very good understanding of Scriptures. But she, like the rest of us including me, perhaps not you tho, don't have a perfect understanding on every single thing in the Bible. No one can be right all the time, even tho I'm sure that there are some that are arrogant enough to think that they're never wrong.

[dobman53]

TATM:

You said something along the lines about you not falling into My error??

Then you said every Christians knows that Jesus is not God the father.

Well it seems to me that just about every died in the wool Trinity believer I've ever come accross insist's God and Jesus are the same guy.....

TATM Just where in this mix of Trinity beliefs do you come down under anyways.

Should your answer to that question be the standard what everybody else believes Trinity doctrine. I'll understand completely then??

Dob!!

[dobman53]

Oneway:

Falling sucker to the Gap theory, do you say??

Seems to me here about 2 or 3 weeks ago you were over on another thread, and there you stated where you felt man had been on this planet for over 12,000 years??

Now if I'm not mistaken that's a pretty fair Gap of time your talking about there Oneway.

What do you think??

pretty fair Gap..

Yes?? maybe...NO!!

Dob!!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Well I don't know about all of that, but at least she doesn't seem like she has fallen sucker for the gap theory like our friend arron has. And as far as your claim up above...my guess would be that you're misunderstanding her. Personally, I feel that Turtle has a very good understanding of Scriptures. But she, like the rest of us including me, perhaps not you tho, don't have a perfect understanding on every single thing in the Bible. No one can be right all the time, even tho I'm sure that there are some that are arrogant enough to think that they're never wrong.

Rev. Ms. Turtle has wery little knowledge of scripture. Perhaps, what you really meant was that she agrees with you in most things. Go back and read her post under . . . forgot the name of the thread. Church and gays?? Rev. Ms. Turtle could not distinguish between Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. As for know-it-alls, there are several on this board, including Rev. Ms. Turtle.

ps. I must return and add this short ps, Mr. Oneway. The Gap Theory was invented in the nineteenth century by the Roman Church. It was rejected by those it was meant to appease. Some years later, the author of Rev. Ms. Turtle's religion's Bible, Finis Jennings Dake revived that theory. You will find much of Dake's writings are used by Murray to defend the theory. Dake, for the sake of discussion, also gave us a nine part trinity. Someone once said "Reading is fundemental."

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

You said something along the lines about you not falling into My error??

Then you said every Christians knows that Jesus is not God the father.

Well it seems to me that just about every died in the wool Trinity believer I've ever come accross insist's God and Jesus are the same guy.....

TATM Just where in this mix of Trinity beliefs do you come down under anyways.

Should your answer to that question be the standard what everybody else believes Trinity doctrine. I'll understand completely then??

Dob!!

Did you mean ?? or !!? I have never met a single Christian who was confused by the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. You are absolutely right. As to my belief's, I believe the Bible implicitly and explicitly. Too bad you don't.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Oneway:

Falling sucker to the Gap theory, do you say??

Seems to me here about 2 or 3 weeks ago you were over on another thread, and there you stated where you felt man had been on this planet for over 12,000 years??

Now if I'm not mistaken that's a pretty fair Gap of time your talking about there Oneway.

What do you think??

pretty fair Gap..

Yes?? maybe...NO!!

Dob!!

Is the thread about the "Trinity" or the Gap Theory?

[truth_child]

i beleive in the trinity GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST these THREE ARE ONE

[truth_child]

tatm i know we dont agree on many things but you are right about the trinity. may GOD BLESS you

[easeltine]

Truth,

"JESUS IS A GOOD GOD HE IS OUR HELP IN TIME OF NEED AND A SHELTER IN THE TIME OF STORM"

I like that...Praise the Lord!

TATM,

I ain't knocking the hymns, just give me something that has a beat, I ain't knocking the hymns, just give me something that will move my feet, I don't like those funeral marches. I ain't dead yet!
Jesus is my Rock and He rolled my blues away!

[truth_child]

easeltine oh yes a good beat to a song, good hand clapping foot patting shouting type music. yeah that my kind of song

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Truth,

"JESUS IS A GOOD GOD HE IS OUR HELP IN TIME OF NEED AND A SHELTER IN THE TIME OF STORM"

I like that...Praise the Lord!

TATM,

I ain't knocking the hymns, just give me something that has a beat, I ain't knocking the hymns, just give me something that will move my feet, I don't like those funeral marches. I ain't dead yet!
Jesus is my Rock and He rolled my blues away!

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path.


So tell me OH! so great King of Waffles, why do you rely on man-made doctrine?

[easeltine]

Jesus Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh.

[dobman53]

TATM: In Your post #446 You stated the Gap theory came along about the 19th centry.

Concievably some one chose to speak in the 19th centry on the subject of the first world age. But let me assure you of this one thing!! the First world age has allready taken place. This subject is no theory, it's a matter of straight facts.

TATM you reached an area from long long before,, An area from where you know it's way past the time you started weening yourself from. Should you be querious about the weening, I'm refuring to all your Dead Saints Books...

Remember this TATM..these books have become quite a major part of your personnal make up here lately. Honestly I don't have any objections at all with these books having so much in common with one another.

But just because their commonality is only where all their authors are long since dead. It's still something I'd never bet my life on??

TATM: maybe you should purchase a Talmed. Then when ever you started in with your spouting off,,, you could actually back-up your words for a change.

I still can only shake my head in amazement. Full grown men saying the world is only 6000 years old??? And you say you still can't figure out why church attendance is down world wide...

Maybe the next time you set up your ministries offering plate on your favorite Freeway entrance. You could then maybe try a flat earth sermond to woow those big time crowds. You might even give some serious though's to guitar lesson's, I mean after all it couldn't hurt.

Dob!!

[dobman53]

Easeltine: Is Jesus God the father???

Can you give me a straight (yes) or (no) answer.

You have a library of dead Saints just like TATM. Crack open one of those volumes for me, could you??. Then tell us word for word how they each flip-flopped on the frying pan from us setting the knob so high!!!

Usually by the time their all through with their forked tongue sermond's nobody has the faintest idea of what they've just said. And that's the way they like it,, everybody as confused as all get out so they don't have to feel like fools all alone.

Dob!!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Jesus Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh.

Which one are you referring to?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: In Your post #446 You stated the Gap theory came along about the 19th centry.

Concievably some one chose to speak in the 19th centry on the subject of the first world age. But let me assure you of this one thing!! the First world age has allready taken place. This subject is no theory, it's a matter of straight facts.

TATM you reached an area from long long before,, An area from where you know it's way past the time you started weening yourself from. Should you be querious about the weening, I'm refuring to all your Dead Saints Books...

Remember this TATM..these books have become quite a major part of your personnal make up here lately. Honestly I don't have any objections at all with these books having so much in common with one another.

But just because their commonality is only where all their authors are long since dead. It's still something I'd never bet my life on??

TATM: maybe you should purchase a Talmed. Then when ever you started in with your spouting off,,, you could actually back-up your words for a change.

I still can only shake my head in amazement. Full grown men saying the world is only 6000 years old??? And you say you still can't figure out why church attendance is down world wide...

Maybe the next time you set up your ministries offering plate on your favorite Freeway entrance. You could then maybe try a flat earth sermond to woow those big time crowds. You might even give some serious though's to guitar lesson's, I mean after all it couldn't hurt.

Dob!!

Mr. Doberman, what is the subject of the thread? You lost the one titled Gap Theory, get over it.

[easeltine]

Easeltine: Is Jesus God the father???

No, Jesus Christ is not God the Father. The Creeds make this fact clear in that they say that Jesus Christ is, "One substance with the Father," and "the Father is God, the Son is God, and yet there are not three Gods, but One God." (The Nicene, and The Athanasian Creed). This agrees with Scripture that says that Chirst Is the Word. See John 1:1, and the Scripture that says that the Word became flesh, (Jesus), John 1:14. The Word is the Creator who always was with God the Father, and the Word became Jesus Christ.

Bishop Alexander, the spiritural father of St. Athanasius said,

"It is necessary to say that the Father is always the Father, He is the Father, since the Son is always with Him, on account of whom He is called the Father."

The Bible says,

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

Jesus said in John that if you destroyed the temple of His body, He would raise it up. It's important to remember that one must believe that Jesus is the LORD, (Jehovah), of the O.T. There are many different "jesus spirits/demons" out there, but only one true Jesus Christ.

In 1 Corinthians the Bible says that one can have a different Jesus, though, in 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 10:9, and the book of 1 John Scripture gives us tests to see if we have the correct Jesus Christ within us.

[oneway]

I'm not necessarily avoiding you..I've pretty much decided that it would be pointless to debate what you have wriiten in this thread. To argue with the Scriptures you have provided..this would be to argue with Scriptures themselves. The problem is your conclusions. You fail to use deductivive reasoning based upon the evidence...the evidence being the Scriptures themselves.

Take this example for instance. If in 2009, someone finds a single record that simply states that a person was born in 1969, in January, and in Illinois.

OK, let's say that was the only record available. In order to make my point..obviously there is not much to go on here, but a person using deductive reasoning could determine several facts not stated within this text, such as...this person was human, since generally animals are not described as persons. If this person were still alive, this person would be 40 yrs old. This prson was born in the winter, since January is a winter month. This person was born in the USA, since Illinois is a state in the USA.

The text told us none of that, but we can deduce it from what we previously know about other things. And this get's me back to my main point..Jesus is indeed God. Of course, you are correct, the Bible does not come right out and say it point blank so to speak, but we can deduce it from what we've learned from other Scriptures.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the Bible tells us that Jesus was indeed worshipped on many occasions, and not once did Jesus tell them that they shouldn't worship Him. The Bible also tells us that Jesus forgave sins. So, putting 2 and 2 together, and since the Bible teaches that only God is to be worshipped, and only God can forgive sins, this then means that Jesus is God and that He is divine. This doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father nor that there are more than one God.

[turtle]

God is a good God. We see Him in three persons, yet one. How is this. We see the Holy Spirit in the fire and the cloud that lead Israel. We See God existing in His Son, and In the Father, but we never see the Holy Spirit physically for after all He is Spirit not flesh. On the throne you see two physical beings Father and Son each showing the relationship of God with Man. And we see the Holy Spirit relationship with Man. Is not God the Father our comforter and God the Son the comfort and is not the Holy Spirit known as the comforter and Spirit of all truth. He speaks to us in our hearts.

[truth_child]

john saw THE HOLY GHOST AS A DOVE. he also sawand knew that JESUS was in the water and he also heard THE VOICE OF GOD THE FATHER SPEAKING FROM HEAVEN that is three in one there is not way one can get around that. JESUS prayed to HIS FATHER in heaven , and JESUS WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST

[turtle]

Jesus already had the Holy Ghost truth child. For He was God already. Just because He was not on the throne it did not make Him less God. For is not Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever. Was the dove the Holy Spirit Truth Child or was the dove a Physical site of the Holy Spirit like the cloud and the pillar of fire that guarded Israel.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Come, Rev. Ms. Turtle, you waffle gooder than OH! so great King of Waffles hisself.

[turtle]

Atam you are to chicken to answer my question so you are on ignore.

[turtle]

Revelation 7:17 KJV
(17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Christ being called God in Revelations. Who wipes away our tears Jesus does.

Yet in chapter 5 of Revelations we see who is worthy to open the seven seals only Jesus. So any prophet that says they can read the seven seals is a false prophet. Only the Lamb that was slain can.

Revelation 5:1-14 KJV
(1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
(2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
(3) And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
(4) And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
(7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
(12) Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
(13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

God is a good God. We see Him in three persons, yet one. How is this. We see the Holy Spirit in the fire and the cloud that lead Israel. We See God existing in His Son, and In the Father, but we never see the Holy Spirit physically for after all He is Spirit not flesh. On the throne you see two physical beings Father and Son each showing the relationship of God with Man. And we see the Holy Spirit relationship with Man. Is not God the Father our comforter and God the Son the comfort and is not the Holy Spirit known as the comforter and Spirit of all truth. He speaks to us in our hearts.

Arrron, so you believe that Holy Spirit is not Jesus. Thank you, you answered my question finally. Apparently you do nto see the Holy Spirit as the Father either? That is what you are telling me when you do not agree with my post with scripture above. I used scripture to make my point. I wish you would do the same. You don't have to post it, just the reference will do. I can look it up myself and will be glad to. I might even post it for you.

turtle

What does one do when caught in a waffle? For Rev. Ms. Turtle, it is just one more day at the office.

[truth_child]

to the one who wrote the post asking did i see JESUS as THE FATHER OR THE HOLY GHOST no i dont they are three distinct being yet are one in essence menaing that they all agree on the same things there is no seperate on way or the other we DO NOT worship three GODS but ONE GOD

[truth_child]

and why dont you come back to cb and "discuss " your beleifs if you havent already over there under a differnet name.....hmmmmm

[dobman53]

Surely you jest about Aryan and a different name.

Like I don't think I could ever possibly pick out Aryan's writing style from amongst 4 or 5 different posters. That could prove to be a real tuffy?? now wouldn't it.

Dob!!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Surely you jest about Aryan and a different name.

Like I don't think I could ever possibly pick out Aryan's writing style from amongst 4 or 5 different posters. That could prove to be a real tuffy?? now wouldn't it.

Dob!!

I hered tell put your drawers on wuz tuff for you.

[praetorian]

Tony you did not read scripture that I provided for you and it is KJV. Second you read and did not tell me my question was wrong the fact is Jesus took the seat at the right hand of the Father. You fail to read so I fail to read any more of your blubbering. For you read what you want and say what you want despite what is obvious to all readers including an eighth grader. It so sad tony. I pray blinders willb be off your eyes.

You really have a problem that Jesus is God. God's God. God the Father adores His Son and the Son adores His Father. Now look at these next verse Tony more proof.

Hebrews 3:4-7 KJV
(4) For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
(5) And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
(6) But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
(7) Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

John 14:1-4 KJV
(1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
(2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(4) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


Christ in these next verse declares He is the Father.

John 14:6-7 KJV
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


What it say in verse 7 if ye know him and have seen him. So you see God for Christ is the Father.


Turtle:

This is to your post 427 on page 22 of this thread! I clearly read the scriptures you provided to me, this last time of MANY and NOTHING changes, it is YOU that can’t read!!! If there is someone blind here it is YOU and nonsensical blathering is part and parcel of nearly all of your posts!

I don’t have a “problem” with “Jesus being God” the Bible does and you are attempting to kill the messenger for simply taking this at face value and NOT add and or interpret it! Jesus is “a God”, but he is not the SAME PERSON or God, that is referred to in the Bible, several times as the “God and Father of Jesus Christ” who “begot” or made him, and it simply cannot get any clearer than that in plain and simple English as to what the Bible simply states about this!!!

Your referring me to Hebrews 3:4-7 DOES NOT ESTABLISH NOR SIMPLY STATE THAT JESUS IS GOD, EVER OR THAT GOD IS TRIUNE!!!! Interestingly verse 6, clearly supports what the Bible states that Jesus is God’s Son, so he cannot be God, his OWN FATHER note, “But Christ as a son over his own house” meaning he Jesus is NOT over his OWN house, PLEASE REASON ON THIS, as instead Jesus, as a “SON” is “OVER” God’s HOUSE, which plainly, grammatically means someone else!!!!!!!

As to John 14:1-4, NOTE: THIS DOES NOT ESTABLISH NOR SIMPLY STATE THAT JESUS IS GOD, EVER OR THAT GOD IS TRIUNE!!!! It does however refer to them separately, as in verse 1, as to believing in God and Jesus, as God sent Jesus as his reprehensive Messiah on earth, God did not send himself as you believe!!!! Verse 2, states that in Jesus’ Father’s House, NOTE NOT IN JESUS HOUSE, again, as two separate beings while plainly referring to someone else’s HOUSE, God’s House, the God and Father of Jesus!!!! And we know that Jesus as God’s Son is OVER God’s House so he cannot be the same, as to be over something he is the one in charge, but NEVER OVER GOD, HIS FATHER!!!!

Now here you state something SHOCKING, as you state your opinion and now reference scriptures that you feel demonstrate, “Christ in these next verse declares He is the Father” and NO HE DOES NOT. I REPEAT YOUR VERSES BELOW FOR PROOF OF THIS AND TO DEMONSTRATE YOU CAN’T READ NOR GET THERE FROM THESE SCRIPTURES OR ANY OTHER!!!!!

Quote:

John 14:6-7 KJV
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

End Quote:

Now, in you state that “Christ in these next verse declares He is the Father” and no he does not as the next verse in 6, tells us that he is the way, truth and life, to get to the FATHER, not to HIMSELF!!!! You are making this up as this is not what is states at all!!! Look even if the folks here think I am crazy wrong, they must agree, if they read and comprehend English that these verses, do not state nor support what you express it does, IT SIMPLY DOES NOT!!!! You speak of an 8th grader then let them read this and tell you what it means as it is no different or special wording here that they do not deal with in school everyday!!!! Verse 7, tells us, though more specifically, the Jews, Religious leaders, that say they believed in God, but hated Jesus, God’ Son, that they (the Jewish religious leaders) would have known God, they would also know Jesus, thus because they “say they know God” but in reality do not know him, they do not know Jesus their Messiah and later Kill him for it!!!!! Again, nothing in this verse either tells you simply, clearly and plainly, grammatically speaking that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune, but rather, you are trying to IMPLY it from Jesus words!

I have a tip for you, instead of trying to interpret Jesus words, via implication, dogma, creeds and theologies of others that you bought into; how about letting Jesus words and the plain words of the Bible do all of the talking and you will see that you cannot get there from here!!!! EVER!!!

TP

[truth_child]

for the last time i post on here as truth child since i ws sick and wsnt on for a while whne i came backi had to cme back as truth_child on cb i came on there as bold22 and that is it. i dont use any other name regardles o what people say, and as for the trinity yes i beleive the bible and i beleive in the trinity

[praetorian]

Dear Easeltine:

This will serve to reply to both your posts, numbers 428, and 229, respectively! You will also have to pardon me in advance as I have not had the time to go over this to check for misspellings, and or mistakes in grammar, so if you find such, please do not assume the worst as if done on purpose, but ask me! Thank you in advance!!!

You quote me as stating,"...plainly or grammatically state, IN ANY BIBLE that "Jesus is God" and then you go onto show scriptures that do not do this at all! Let’s see who is reading this or adding to it, shall we?

Quote: Exodus 20:3 - "You shall have no other gods before Me." End Quote; Where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! You must take this scripture and ASSUME, OR IMPLY THIS because God YHWH stated this, so then therefore JESUS MUST BE GOD as though there is NO OTHER EXPLANAION FOR THIS SINCE THE SCRIPTURE DO NOT TELL US THAT JESUS IS GOD!!!! What you and others do here, is called reverse diction!

Quote: Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And His Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God..." End Quote, Where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! You must take this scripture and ASSUME, OR IMPLY THIS because God YHWH (as LORD in capital letters stands for the fact that this word LORD or in Hebrew Adonai, was substituted for God’s personal name-FACT) stated this, so then therefore JESUS MUST BE GOD as though there is NO OTHER EXPLANAION FOR THIS SINCE THE SCRIPTURE DO NOT TELL US THAT JESUS IS GOD!!!! What you and others do here, is called reverse diction!

QUOTE: The facts are that we are forbidden to worship another God in Scripture, other then Jehovah God” End Quote; and you are indeed correct about this, totally!!!!!!

QUOTE: “Due to the Law of God that states that there is no other God one must come to the conclusion of the Trinity when we look at the following verses: End Quote: ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Note what you did! First, where in the above scriptures do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! You do however establish that no one other than God can be worshipped!!!!!! Not that there are no other Gods!!!!! Also, you must not be aware of other scriptures that identify other Gods in the Bible, though the distinction is they are as you accurately state; are NOT WORSHIPPED!!!! Second, where you do get from the scriptures the RIGHT to add the word “Trinity” to your question and state that “Due to the Law of God that states there is no other God one must come to the conclusion of the Trinity” END QUOTE: and reply, that you clearly here “come to the conclusion” that is a far cry that something that is plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated like that “Jesus is God” and or that “God is Triune” YOU DON’T as you prove the point in your very words!!!!! You added the Trinity part and reached that conclusion even though the words in the scriptures you quoted do not state this, but you and others feel are IMPLIED thereby allowing you to reach your conclusion!!!! THIS IS THE POINT!!!!! Whether or not you like what I believe over what you believe, you cannot get there from the words quoted EVER other than by innuendoes, and implication, or conclusions; verses or over the plain words of the Bible that do not do this!!!!!

QUOTE: Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." End QUOTE: Where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! What we do have is a prophesy, that God is going to send someone that will fit and or fulfill that description not that God is going to Send God, or HIMSELF, or piece of HIMSELF or a THIRD or FOURTH PART OF HIMSELF ETC, that is NOT what it states. It does state that this Messiah, will be very unique and special, and that God will give him a government (Daniel 2:44) that will never be brought to ruin or end, and that this Messiah, will be called by many wonderful names, including “Mighty God” but not that it is God himself who is coming! If Jesus is the Son of God, it stands to reason he is like his Father (we learn this from the human experience as we as humans are made in God’s image) a Godlike one, but not the he is the same person the scriptures call the “God and Father of Jesus Christ” as they are not the same person, not to mention Son of God makes this same point crystal clear, it is people like you that some how take this simple Bible statement, “Son of God” and perform a dyslexic with magical word substitution to get to “God the Son” when this is NOT a Bible designation given to the Son of God Jesus!!!!

QUOTE: John 1:1-3 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." End Quote: First, (let us not get sidetracked here with implications and controversial scriptures) where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! Second, this scripture is NOT the only way this verse has been rendered in about 15 or 20 English Bibles (not counting JW’s) available today, if it was, as such, not controversial, like so many other simply stated scriptures are not, then you would have at best, a “duo-ity” or “duality” and not a “Trinity” as this verse cannot be used to establish a “Trinity” at all!!! Third, these verses also speak to the fact that Jesus is not his own God and Father as it plainly states that “He was in the beginning with God” meaning grammatically speaking that he cannot be God, as he was with him in the first place, and also that “all things were made through Him” (not capitals in Greek, or Hebrew added by translators-FACT) “and without Him nothing was made that was made” which would make no sense if Jesus was the God spoken of “was God” and or part of that God in a third or other numeric part etc! Again, you would at best have a possibly valid argument if all Bible’s translated this verse the same and or similar way here, and you cannot just choose to IGNORE the others, simply because of your “feelings” or “opinions” as you could, but that would not be a sound reason to do so; as there so many other Bibles (in English-especially) that translated this verse differently establishing that there must be something in the Greek that causes this to be so-FACT! Let me know if you want incontrovertible proof of this and I will post it here as a stand alone post with a website you can use for easy reference!

Now here in this quote, “The Bible says the following regarding the Word, that is God” you take the assumptive position that what you state above is absolutely correct however, this is simply not the case, as at the very least, what I mention above demonstrates that this verse is not as cut and dry as you and others would like to it be!

Quote: John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." End Quote: Where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! It does tell us that the one spoken of at Isaiah 9:6 and in many other places in the Bible, that refer to the Messiah, whom Jesus Christ the Son of God was, who was with God in heaven BEFORE (as Jesus had a pre-human existence as attested to by Jesus himself) he came to the earth, so Jesus, the Word of God, did become “…flesh and dwelt among us” not the God himself came down to do this, but his Son did, and the next part of the verse states this, “the glory of the only begotten of the Father” and STOP; you cannot EVER refer to God and or a Part of God as though it was “begotten” ever, has God has always been, and has never been begotten nor has he been done so on earth, as that is NOT what the scriptures plainly state, nor does it state that here with reference to God, but instead, plainly to God’s Son!!!! This verse in the NIV also states that Jesus Glory “came from the Father” from his Glory!!! And what else would you expect from Jesus whose “God and Father” Jesus Christ is!!!! Are not your children a reflection of your human nature!!!!

QUOTE: Only God is the Creator. Verse 14 DOES NOT SAY THAT THE WORD WENT INTO JESUS, RATHER THAT THE WORD BECAME JESUS!” End Quote: First, where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! Second, please know totally agree with first part of your statement as it is totally Biblical that “Only God is the Creator” however, according to the first few verses of this same chapter of John you quote above, with regards to Jesus, note: “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made” therefore we are told in the Bible, that God did this (note how simple the words---no interpretation or implying is necessary) work as “Creator” “through” his Son, and for his Son!!!!! So, they are not the SAME person period as grammatically speaking it speaks of someone working “through” someone else and for that someone else!!! Also, the verses of John do not state, “the word went into Jesus” but rather that “the word became flesh” Jesus became flesh! You are playing on words here, as the verses do not state this, you do!!! The word, or spirit person that was known as the word, who was the only very special son of God, his life was transferred by God into the womb of the virgin Mary! Nothning here states, that God did nor did Jesus do what the other rebellious angels (sons of God) did and that is, take on bodies, becoming godlike incarnates of themselves in human form in time of Noah’s day!!!!

Quote: Isaiah 44:6 above made it very clear that there is only one First and Last, and only one Almighty End Quote; , Where in the above scripture do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! Now let us quote, this verse here, Isaiah 44:6, “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” And here it is directly speaking of God YHWH, where the LORD in caps is listed! How then would you reconcile the following verses found at; Exodus 4:15, 16 (NIV) You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.” Or as state in the NASB “be as a God to him” or the New King James Version, “and you shall be to him as God.” Or how about other humans, as stated at Psalms 82:6, (NIV) by God to others when he states, “I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' (Which Jesus quoted and applied to the Jews who were trying to kill him at John 10:34, when his claim was less than theirs, as religious leaders, as he Jesus claimed that he was “God’s Son!) We also see from here that other “sons of God” are also “Gods” (again there is NO capitalization in Hebrew here, or for that matter in Greek) Therefore the issue is NOT whether there are “Gods” or “other God’s” (again as plainly stated in the Bible) but rather that according to scripture, that you pointed out above, on one is be worshipped other than the God and Father of Jesus!!!!! (I will be more than happy to address under a separate post that Jesus is NOT worshipped at all, or to be worshipped and will use different well known Bibles online that you can see for yourself, if you do not have them that show many contradictions when translating the Greek word, that we get “worship” from that is also translated as “bow” “obeisance” etc and is used in Greek to show the act that Cornelius dud when he fell at Peter’s feet---let me know if you want me to do this). Note how the above is easily reconciled by description at 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, (NIV) 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), [note there is parenthesis here in Greek {there are in other parts of Greek} nor quotes as this is added by translators] 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” Therefore even though there are many gods and lords, NOTE: there is to us “but one God, the Father, from which all things came and for who we live” and then after this, it states, “and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live” that therefore speaks of two, not one, or one of two, or one of three!!!!! It does not get any clearer than this!!!!

QUOTE: In Revelation 1:8 Jesus Christ says this about Himself, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty." End Quote: Where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! So in order for to state that “Jesus Christ says this about Himself” you must draw conclusions or interpret the words that do not state this at all!!!! Now, let us quote here this verse from two Bibles: (KJV) 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” and now from the (NIV) 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Besides the verse NOT telling us that “Jesus Christ says this about Himself” (and disregard and completely IGNORE for this what it says at Revelation 1:1 where Jesus was given this by his God and Father speaking of them separately) we have a subtle, simple and yet profound difference in this Bible Versions, as the KJV states, “saith the Lord” while the NIV states, “says Lord God” and this is important as in the Greek the equivalent article “the” is used to denote the God and Father of Jesus as separate and distinct from his Son, who IS NEVER REFERRED TO IN THE GREEK AT ALL WITH THE ARTICLE NOT EVEN AT JOHN 1:1!!!! YOU WILL NEVER FIND THIS TO BE APPLIED TO JESUS, whom I might add, states at Revelation 3: 12 and 13, (NIV) “12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches” speaks of his Father as “his God” four times while mentioning that he Jesus has a “new name!!!!”

QUOTE with opening remarks and later commentary reply: Now here you truly give yourself away, and I trust should be an eye opener to you or anyone following this above as you state: There can only be one Almighty God by definition of the word Almighty. This is why the logic of The Athanasian Creed says, "The Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, the Spirit is Almighty, and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty." Logic is that there can not be more than one Almighty.” And note, you have left the Bible, again, you have left the Bible that does not state, plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! And now MUST refer to where this teaching came from, originated from, as your reference to support your believe that “Jesus is God” a matter that was clearly presided over by a pagan, (forgetting the historic controversy attached to this, on issue here) but clearly a teaching that is COMPLETELY OUTSIDE THE BIBLE IN ORDER TO SUPPORT WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!!! You are indeed right about one thing, your logic that tells you what the Bible tells you, no more and no less, that “the God and Father of Jesus Christ” is indeed the Almighty God who has never been begotten by any means!!

The difference between us as that I do not, nor will I EVER do this, take a teaching that is plainly stated in the Bible and then reply upon the teachings of humans to tell me that that the Bible actually means to express this or that! There is your difference PERIOD!!!!

Now, here you move onto old news, the book of “Dr. Walter Martin” “The Kingdom of the Cults” wow, why stop there, as there are many, many more like “Doctrines of Devils” etc. etc. etc, that I have actually read and studied and have in my library and now ask you again, Where in here, do you see it plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically stated that Jesus is God and or that God is Triune? NOWHERE! So, your bringing this up that adds nothing to your argument that you have already admitted must be “concluded” or implied though that is plainly, simply, clearly and grammatically stated in “The Athanasian Creed” Good For YOU!!!

You should know something about me, that as I did not become a JW the typical way, but instead used these publications as a starting point to PROVE THEM WRONG, as to the Bible; so now I ask you, have not read this book you reference yourself” If not, then you are at a complete disadvantage to me who not only read it but studied it!!! Hey, you can find the same stuff against JW’s easily on the internet and this site, (surprise) and a lot of it that is simply NOT ACCURATE!!!

You know, had Judas Iscariot written a book before he killed himself, entitled, “Jesus is not the Messiah, I know I was one of the Twelve’ I can tell you truly two things; 1. None of his disciples and faithful followers would have bought the book and; 2. It would have been a best seller among the Jews and people who killed him!!! This means nothing, you referring to a book that does not even deal with the issue at hand, other than to what, alter the issue, as YOU MUST BE RIGHT despite what I point out above!!! Get real! Try the logic you use above, at a work place and or a business and see how far it gets you! (Oh, I do not have the new edition, I am running now to get one at Barnes and Noble as I just can’t wait to order it online!). Do you know where this in the book “General Editor Ravi Zacharias” tells us where it is stated in the Bible, plainly, simply, clearly, or grammatically that “Jesus is God” and or that “God is Triune?” NOWHERE! SHOW ME!

Onto your second post:

You mention, QUOTE: I have told our lady JW Accountant at work that I debate on the Internet a person who is a nice JW. She asked me if you were a real JW or a fake one. I told her that you were a real one, I knew it, and a very nice person” and reply, thank you for that, and know, that I do not consider this a debate, but rather what it simply is, a written exchange between us regarding what the Bible really teaches about this subject matter, that you have chosen to describe as a debate! Since you do not know me nor I you, we are truly to address what kind of person we are, other, than, I do find that you are sincere in your beliefs, and are nice on the board in your exchanges with me. Thank you!

QUOTE: It's just that your Arius-type ideas are wrong, they were wrong in 325 A.D., and they are wrong today. Jesus Christ is as the Creed says, true God of true God, Begotten, not made, of One Substance with the Father” and reply; just because a person can make reference to a person in history that had similar beliefs, does not mean they were the same nor that they are wrong! Your closing statement here quoted, again reinforces that what you believe is plainly stated in the “The Athanasian Creed” but not plainly stated in the Bible, and I will always choose Bible over my personal beliefs no matter what they may be, as I nor is anyone else I know, above the God and Father of Jesus, nor Jesus our Lord and Savior to go beyond what is written (1 Corinthains 4:6) as that is what you MUST do in order to believe in this and other non Biblical, God dishonoring teachings!

Sincerely,

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Error 101

It would have been a best seller among the Jews and people who killed him!!

"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." John 10:15 - 17 KJV.

Amazing how easily some folks add to the Word of God while claiming not to.

[turtle]

Turtle:

This is to your post 427 on page 22 of this thread! I clearly read the scriptures you provided to me, this last time of MANY and NOTHING changes, it is YOU that can’t read!!! If there is someone blind here it is YOU and nonsensical blathering is part and parcel of nearly all of your posts!

I don’t have a “problem” with “Jesus being God” the Bible does and you are attempting to kill the messenger for simply taking this at face value and NOT add and or interpret it! Jesus is “a God”, but he is not the SAME PERSON or God, that is referred to in the Bible, several times as the “God and Father of Jesus Christ” who “begot” or made him, and it simply cannot get any clearer than that in plain and simple English as to what the Bible simply states about this!!!

Your referring me to Hebrews 3:4-7 DOES NOT ESTABLISH NOR SIMPLY STATE THAT JESUS IS GOD, EVER OR THAT GOD IS TRIUNE!!!! Interestingly verse 6, clearly supports what the Bible states that Jesus is God’s Son, so he cannot be God, his OWN FATHER note, “But Christ as a son over his own house” meaning he Jesus is NOT over his OWN house, PLEASE REASON ON THIS, as instead Jesus, as a “SON” is “OVER” God’s HOUSE, which plainly, grammatically means someone else!!!!!!!

As to John 14:1-4, NOTE: THIS DOES NOT ESTABLISH NOR SIMPLY STATE THAT JESUS IS GOD, EVER OR THAT GOD IS TRIUNE!!!! It does however refer to them separately, as in verse 1, as to believing in God and Jesus, as God sent Jesus as his reprehensive Messiah on earth, God did not send himself as you believe!!!! Verse 2, states that in Jesus’ Father’s House, NOTE NOT IN JESUS HOUSE, again, as two separate beings while plainly referring to someone else’s HOUSE, God’s House, the God and Father of Jesus!!!! And we know that Jesus as God’s Son is OVER God’s House so he cannot be the same, as to be over something he is the one in charge, but NEVER OVER GOD, HIS FATHER!!!!

Now here you state something SHOCKING, as you state your opinion and now reference scriptures that you feel demonstrate, “Christ in these next verse declares He is the Father” and NO HE DOES NOT. I REPEAT YOUR VERSES BELOW FOR PROOF OF THIS AND TO DEMONSTRATE YOU CAN’T READ NOR GET THERE FROM THESE SCRIPTURES OR ANY OTHER!!!!!

Quote:

John 14:6-7 KJV
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

End Quote:

Now, in you state that “Christ in these next verse declares He is the Father” and no he does not as the next verse in 6, tells us that he is the way, truth and life, to get to the FATHER, not to HIMSELF!!!! You are making this up as this is not what is states at all!!! Look even if the folks here think I am crazy wrong, they must agree, if they read and comprehend English that these verses, do not state nor support what you express it does, IT SIMPLY DOES NOT!!!! You speak of an 8th grader then let them read this and tell you what it means as it is no different or special wording here that they do not deal with in school everyday!!!! Verse 7, tells us, though more specifically, the Jews, Religious leaders, that say they believed in God, but hated Jesus, God’ Son, that they (the Jewish religious leaders) would have known God, they would also know Jesus, thus because they “say they know God” but in reality do not know him, they do not know Jesus their Messiah and later Kill him for it!!!!! Again, nothing in this verse either tells you simply, clearly and plainly, grammatically speaking that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune, but rather, you are trying to IMPLY it from Jesus words!

I have a tip for you, instead of trying to interpret Jesus words, via implication, dogma, creeds and theologies of others that you bought into; how about letting Jesus words and the plain words of the Bible do all of the talking and you will see that you cannot get there from here!!!! EVER!!!

TP


Praetorian you are just mad because you do not grasp this verse here

John 14:7 KJV
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

If you know Christ you should know the Father and if you know him you have seen him. Meaning He is the Father, the everlasting Father, if you go further down you will Christ say he is in me and I in Him. Meaning God Father in Christ and Christ is in the Father. Both speaking through each other. Now that sounds confusing most will admit I think. But then you got to remember in the begin was the word and the word became flesh. So the word being the Father and also being the Son. That 1:1 and I think 14.

Verse about Jesus being in the Father and vise versa.

John 14:11 KJV
(11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Now I don't know about you but that verse is very plain but if you do not understand scripture that might seem a bit confusing for you. Fact is they being separate but one God it makes total since. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. ephesian 4.

Fact is I could go on and on and on and perhaps you can to, but this is my last post for awhile so have fun trying to out do atam.

[truth_child]

the trinity is real praise THE LORD

[praetorian]

Error 101



"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." John 10:15 - 17 KJV.

Amazing how easily some folks add to the Word of God while claiming not to.

TATM:

The very first part of 1 Samuel 13:13 applies to you and those like you here!

Nothing you express here replies to my post to establish that ANYTHING stated is incorrect from the standpoint of the Bible! GET IT!!!

Please take the time to SHOW ME where I add to the word of God! I used an analogy, an example, and illustration, if you do not like it, then fine, but to ASSUME what I expressed as quoted by you as some sort of an edition to the Bible is ludicrous, though is part of the problem here!

The following also applies to YOU, at Matthew 12:10-15, with an underscore in verse 13!!!!

TP

[praetorian]

Praetorian you are just mad because you do not grasp this verse here

John 14:7 KJV
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

If you know Christ you should know the Father and if you know him you have seen him. Meaning He is the Father, the everlasting Father, if you go further down you will Christ say he is in me and I in Him. Meaning God Father in Christ and Christ is in the Father. Both speaking through each other. Now that sounds confusing most will admit I think. But then you got to remember in the begin was the word and the word became flesh. So the word being the Father and also being the Son. That 1:1 and I think 14.

Verse about Jesus being in the Father and vise versa.

John 14:11 KJV
(11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Now I don't know about you but that verse is very plain but if you do not understand scripture that might seem a bit confusing for you. Fact is they being separate but one God it makes total since. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. ephesian 4.

Fact is I could go on and on and on and perhaps you can to, but this is my last post for awhile so have fun trying to out do atam.

Turtle:

Turtle if someone here is “mad” (insane) it is you, and NO, I am not “mad” (angry) [The Bible uses words like this too] as I feel sorry for how you and others here choose to believe what others have taught you, rather than to think for yourself, and use the Bible’s words ONLY!!!! You need to learn how to read and comprehend as it appears you are reading and or speaking a different language!

John 14:7, has Jesus speaking here of two, himself and his Father!!! Nothing in this verse tells you, grammatically speaking, from the words, that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune at all! If you see this, in these words, then SHOW ME, instead if you are honest, you will see that you are trying to get to your understanding by inference, implication as it is NOT PLAINLY STATED!!!!

At Genesis 32:24-30, you will find Jacob wrestling with an angel, and note what he states in verse 30, (NIV) “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared” and just because the verse plainly states that Jacob saw God, the context of what is going on, and why he states this, clearly establishes that he did not actually SEE GOD, it is an expression, used to depict the events that occurred! Jesus does that here, and who better than the SON OF GOD who has known God, longer and better than any other creation in history, on earth and in the spirit world!!!!!

John 1:1, has several other renderings in many other English Bibles, and you know this, and if you forgot let me know and I will re-post it here, also, this verse speaks of two and not three so it does not support the Trinity, neither do the next two verses, nor 14!!! The verses about Jesus being in the Father are explained later, as you know in the same book of John where he prays for his disciples to be in Him and visa versa, (the other way around) as you cannot dismiss this and pick one scripture over another, as that is how you get bad information by taking only the ones that appear to fit what you believe while disregarding the others that DO NOT!!!!

Ephesians 4 speaks of “one Lord” and also, “one God” as separate and does not state that Jesus is God not that God is Triune!!! But many scriptures tells you plainly, including Jesus himself, that he has a “God and Father” and that Jesus is the “Servant” of God, and that God is the “Head” of Jesus etc, you cannot IGNORE (you can do what you want) in a reasonable manner these scriptures that clearly contradict what you believe!!!!

TP

[praetorian]

the trinity is real praise THE LORD

TC:

The Trinity is indeed real, very real, as it comes from ““The Athanasian Creed” and NOT Bible!!! Look it up! When they did this, not only was it presided over by a Pagan, but, the Bible was not used ONCE, in their decision making! You believe in this Creed and NOT Bible as the Bible does not teach this as if it did, we would not be having this exchange at all!!!! If it was in the Bible I would believe it more than you!!!! But it is NOT so I don’t!!!! Who is the one who believes in the Bible here???? This is NOT a trick question!

TP

[truth_child]

the bible says that JESUS PARAYED TO THE FATHER, THE BBILE SAYS THAT THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON JESUS. AT HIS BAPTISIM THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVEN THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN UPON HIM AND JESUS WAS IN THE WATER that is three .and JESUS IS GOD too.

[praetorian]

Error 101



"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." John 10:15 - 17 KJV.

Amazing how easily some folks add to the Word of God while claiming not to.

TATM:

I was so taken back by your post, that I had to reply to it again, and ask, you read the part of my analogy-illustration, that opened with "You know, had Judas Iscariot written a book before he killed himself..." correct? So why would you post an untruth that can so easily be disproved?

This goes to your state and spirit of mind! How sad!

TP

[praetorian]

the bible says that JESUS PARAYED TO THE FATHER, THE BBILE SAYS THAT THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON JESUS. AT HIS BAPTISIM THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVEN THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN UPON HIM AND JESUS WAS IN THE WATER that is three .and JESUS IS GOD too.


TC:

I am convinced that you and some others on this, though apparently “well meaning” (I am assuming this, know the risk I take) understand what you read in Basic English!

Yes, Jesus prayed to his Father, as they are not the same! And yes the Bible states that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus, meaning they were not the same! And yes, at his Jesus Baptism “the God and Father of Jesus” (as that is what several scriptures in the Bible state) spoke from heaven, meaning they are not the same! And again, you repeat, the Holy Spirit (not Ghost; this word came from the Latin, in the KJV, and is NOT in the Hebrew and Greek) came down on Jesus in the water while Jesus was being Baptised! However, please think nothing here states, that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune, NOTHING! In fact it speaks of them differently and sepately! READ IT SLOWLY.

Let me try this differently.

A Doctor Seuss Book or a Dick and Jane learn how to read and write Book says;

Dick and Jane both (Jesus) prayed (talked) to their (God) Father John. Dick and Jane (Jesus) then cannot be their Father John (God)! (NOTE THREE PERSONS HERE)

Dick and Jane’s (Jesus) Father John (God) sent the Holy Spirit onto Dick and Jane (Jesus). Dick and Jane (Jesus) then cannot be their own Father John (God)!

Dick and Jane (Jesus) heard their Father John’s (God’s) voice and so did others. Dick and Jane (Jesus) cannot be their Father John (God)!

Dick and Jane (Jesus) are Not their Father John (God) as they are three different persons!

Have fun with Dick and Jane!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TC:

The Trinity is indeed real, very real, as it comes from ““The Athanasian Creed” and NOT Bible!!! Look it up! When they did this, not only was it presided over by a Pagan, but, the Bible was not used ONCE, in their decision making! You believe in this Creed and NOT Bible as the Bible does not teach this as if it did, we would not be having this exchange at all!!!! If it was in the Bible I would believe it more than you!!!! But it is NOT so I don’t!!!! Who is the one who believes in the Bible here???? This is NOT a trick question!

TP

The "Trinity" as proven by early Christian writings was wery well-established in the first century. The theory of Arius, as espused by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society on the other hand, was invented in 325 AD. Just the facts, ma'am.

[praetorian]

The "Trinity" as proven by early Christian writings was wery well-established in the first century. The theory of Arius, as espused by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society on the other hand, was invented in 325 AD. Just the facts, ma'am.

TATM:

You are indeed absolutely correct, when you state, that the “Trinity” as proven by early Christian writings (though NOT BIBLE) was very well-established though NOT in the “first century.” Thus you have gone beyond the things written in the Bible!

As to your belief that the Trinity was established in the first century, here is your big chance to really PROVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE! Despite what you think, none of the first Century Christian Congregation believed it, and none of the Apostles nor Bible writers do so either; OR, and this is a BIG OR, they would have written about it! IT is that simple!

It is the NON BIBLE “early Christian writings” that go beyond what is written that do this and not the BIBLE! You have chosen to believe these writings over what the Bible states, and the WT has nothing to do with this! And if you read my reply to you specifically on Arius, you are WRONG about that as well, as I quoted your words and references!!!

Proverbs 16:18 and 1 Corinthians 4:6-7.

TP

Do you ever deal with the issues, you must love to hear yourself speak and think!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

The very first part of 1 Samuel 13:13 applies to you and those like you here!


The following also applies to YOU, at Matthew 12:10-15, with an underscore in verse 13!!!!

TP

And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. 1 Samuel 13:13 KJV

So quoting scripture is foreign to godliness? But . . . it gets better doesn't it?

And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

12:13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and
great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; Matthew 12:10 - 15 KJV

It is obvious reading the Bible does present a major problem for you. So here is some help. Matthew 12 is divided thusly: 1. 1-13; 2. 14-21; 3. 22-37; 4. 38-45; 5. 46-50. Of course, worst come to worst, you could try reading the Bible and not the handouts from your man-made religion.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

You know, Mr. Arron, it is amazing that the Rev. Ms. Turtle has labeled you as being Bible illiterate. Yet she comes here advocating a oneness doctrine. When caught in a waffle, she goes right on like it never happened. Amazing, indeed!

[praetorian]

And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. 1 Samuel 13:13 KJV

So quoting scripture is foreign to godliness? But . . . it gets better doesn't it?

And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

12:13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and
great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; Matthew 12:10 - 15 KJV

It is obvious reading the Bible does present a major problem for you. So here is some help. Matthew 12 is divided thusly: 1. 1-13; 2. 14-21; 3. 22-37; 4. 38-45; 5. 46-50. Of course, worst come to worst, you could try reading the Bible and not the handouts from your man-made religion.

TATM:

Ok, I read your post, and glanced at the scriptures and get the fact that you feel I do not read the scriptures as according to you; it presents a problem for me! I get it! I need help so please help me!

Now help me PLEASE, and show me where in the Bible, it plainly, clearly, simply and grammatically states that “Jesus is God” and or that “God is Triune” and NOT from other Christian Writings that are outside or beyond the Bible? HELP ME PLEASE?

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

You are indeed absolutely correct, when you state, that the “Trinity” as proven by early Christian writings (though NOT BIBLE) was very well-established though NOT in the “first century.” Thus you have gone beyond the things written in the Bible!

As to your belief that the Trinity was established in the first century, here is your big chance to really PROVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE! Despite what you think, none of the first Century Christian Congregation believed it, and none of the Apostles nor Bible writers do so either; OR, and this is a BIG OR, they would have written about it! IT is that simple!

It is the NON BIBLE “early Christian writings” that go beyond what is written that do this and not the BIBLE! You have chosen to believe these writings over what the Bible states, and the WT has nothing to do with this! And if you read my reply to you specifically on Arius, you are WRONG about that as well, as I quoted your words and references!!!

Proverbs 16:18 and 1 Corinthians 4:6-7.

TP

Do you ever deal with the issues, you must love to hear yourself speak and think!

I have already posted the truth. You may chose to receive it or not. I quoted Arius quite plainly. Again, you can receive the truth or your religious hogwash. That choice is your's.

Perhaps you should have spend more time reading verse 22. "Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly." And you certainly should have read verse six more closely than you did. "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." Unlike yourself, I do not need to rely on the hanky-panky of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

Ok, I read your post, and glanced at the scriptures and get the fact that you feel I do not read the scriptures as according to you; it presents a problem for me! I get it! I need help so please help me!

Now help me PLEASE, and show me where in the Bible, it plainly, clearly, simply and grammatically states that “Jesus is God” and or that “God is Triune” and NOT from other Christian Writings that are outside or beyond the Bible? HELP ME PLEASE?

TP

No, I have a better idea. Why don't you show me the word "omniscient?" You can find that, can you not?

[praetorian]

I have already posted the truth. You may chose to receive it or not. I quoted Arius quite plainly. Again, you can receive the truth or your religious hogwash. That choice is your's.

Perhaps you should have spend more time reading verse 22. "Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly." And you certainly should have read verse six more closely than you did. "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." Unlike yourself, I do not need to rely on the hanky-panky of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society.

TATM:

Here you go again, by avoiding the issues! Let us say I am wrong, SHOW ME where in what posts you address the question of Jesus being God or that God is Triune, plainly and clearly stated in the Bible, without having to go beyond the Bible, to other Christian writings, and also that the First Century Congregation believed in this as well!

Your cant! You never will! And your just making statements because you can’t accept the fact that you are wrong when it comes to the Bible (not to non Christian writings as then you are totally CORRECT) as nothing in the Bible not even ONE SCRIPTURE tells you plainly, that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, without having to interpret and or imply that the scriptures state this!

I have addressed ad nauseam your issues and misstatements, and you are unable to get these points, so please, may I suggest, that you try and learn to read again, and use the Dr. Seuss Books and or Fun with Dick and Jane, and do not go beyond those simple words, as you have issues with words, when they get passed this!

You keep insulting and making innuendoes, about the WT, so be it, wow, nothing new again nor that addresses the issues, and note, nothing you state is found in the Bible, as you use cheap shot tactics as a means for you to attempt to avoid dealing with the Bible, however, that does not mean that your views are correct as to the Bible as they are NOT!

Further, you are one as opposed many others, nearly seven million others from around the world, that also come from where you are at present, that disagree with you!

Since you like to quote old movies and series, (just the facts maam) let me reciprocate by using a phrase from the title of an old Elvis Album cover that states, “One Million Elvis Fan’s Just Can’t be Wrong” and add, there are seven million people who do not agree with you!

You have issues with being wrong! Tell me, have you ever been wrong in your life? Perhaps we should poll your children and or grandchildren and see and this appears to be a chronic unreasonable problem that you have!!!

TP

[turtle]

John 1:1-5 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


I planned not to type for awhile but on special request I am back to explain. If you look at the above verse The word was from the beginning. And thw word was God. That means God word spoken things are going to happen. You see that when God created the heavens and the earth. In chapter one. But in chapter 2 you see God forming thiings.

Now lets look at verse 3 the light. What does it mean by light. God is light, Jesus is the light of the world. No man cometh to the Father but by me(Christ).

Now look again at the last verse in the grouping.The light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehend it not. In other words the light and darkness had no Spirit. God spoke the word and created. But the word itself was spoken part of God. Look at the verse below.

John 1:14 KJV
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Reference to God the Son. No problem there. The problem I see taking place is when the word forms it becomes flesh. We know the word was spirit just like on the thrown with God. God the Father is He flesh or Spirit? Answer this and research this I think this is the problem that one is missing.

[praetorian]

No, I have a better idea. Why don't you show me the word "omniscient?" You can find that, can you not?

TATM:

A cheap shot-avoider-player that never deals with the issues wants an answer to his question; as though this answer will some how enlighten the world that his non Bible thinking is correct! You do not deserve an answer, as you ask for courtesies you are unwilling to give out in return! Despite this, so that others do not feel (including you) that you are indeed correct, thereby allowing this type of “reasoning” to throw away the Bible scriptures against your thinking; where the Bible does not clearly state that Jesus is God or that God is Triune, but instead the opposite I reply below:

You and I both know what omniscient means, and that it is a Latin word, (Omni) used in English, that was coined (created, or made) to describe what the Bible clearly, plainly, simply and grammatically expresses about “the God and Father of Jesus Christ” YHWH, as he is in fact all knowing! It does not appear in the Greek and or Hebrew, however no one objects to it’s usage in English as again, it serves to well describe what is plainly stated in the Bible about God (More on this below).

Now, this is no different (I am getting to my point here Jimbo just be patient) than the English word “resurrection” as I am sure you also know that this word does not appear in the Greek or Hebrew, yet it appears in our English language. I trust you also know that this word too, was actually coined, in Latin as well, again, to describe the act of bringing someone back to life! Thus this act of bringing someone back to life is simply, plainly, clearly and grammatically stated in the Bible! Therefore, no one would take issue with this word resurrection in English as with the word omniscient in English to appropriately describe an action or attribute about God that is stated in the Bible, so long as it actually does describe what is again simply, plainly, clearly and grammatically stated in the Bible, which it does when it comes to these two words!!!

Now, you also probably know (as you feel you know so much, that you also feel the need to avoid replies and make statements to be assumed) that the word (which has become a name over time) “Lucifer” found in the KJV at Isaiah 42: 12, is also not found in the Greek or in this particular matter, in the Hebrew, and is completely made up as well in Latin however, there is no basis (sound familiar) to anything in the Hebrew to this phrase, of giving a title, or name to the described as Satan in the Bible! In fact other Bibles translate this same verse with the words like “son of the dawn” or “son of the morning” etc., and what the Latin’s did was take this expression (as with the words that became resurrection and omniscient in English) and used this to create this word-name for Satan, which in the end means Angel of Light or Son of the Morning etc, BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, there is NO BASIS for this in the Hebrew at all, but instead, they took what was written and went beyond it, by giving Satan a particular name, that sticks to this day, though it is NOT clearly Biblical!

Now what you do here with “omniscient” (while interesting) in attempting to establish it as a basis or reason to use the word Trinity, is referred to as an unequal comparison (incompatible) analogy as they are not clearly equal! NOTE: The word “resurrection” is comparable to “omniscient” by way of matching the description of what it means, that does NOT distort God’s word! While at the same time, you are attempting to compare to the word Trinity, to these terms “resurrection” and or “omniscient” which together, are not the same to what the word Trinity does; though, that can fairly or equally be compared to Lucifer, (Trinity) as they are indeed the same by way of comparison as to having no basis clearly, plainly, simply and grammatically stated in the Bible!

You can no more make equal comparisons to unequal terms here in the Bible than you can in science or business etc! Let me try this one other very simple way; In Dr. Seuss or Dick and Jane language, while an “apple” and a “pear” are indeed, “fruit”, they are not the “same” “fruit” therefore not equal for specific comparison!
Nice try!

If you did this on purpose then you are an evil minded person, if you did this in error then learn from it to avoid repeating to others who do not know any better and buy into cow poop!

TP

[praetorian]

Turtle:

Regarding your message above: You are repeating yourself! Let me try this again; If the rendering above on John 1:1-5 was absolutely the only way it was rendered in ALL in English Bibles, (which it clearly is NOT) then, at best, you might have in verse one, a “duality” or duo-ity” but NOT and NEVER a Trinity as there are only two spoken of here and not three!!! However taking the time to investigate this, will demonstrate to you that there is more to this scripture in the Greek, because if there was NOT then it would not be considered controversial in the first place!

Turtle, since you are not an expert nor scholar, what was the basis for you to use this rendering verses, say for instance over the ones found in Moffat translation, or the New English Bible, or Smith-Goodspeed Bible, or the Wuest Expanded Translation, or The Authentic New Testament, or the Barclay New Testament, or the Cassier New Testament, or the International Standard Bible, or The Original New Testament, or even the Jewish Bible of the NT, known as The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha, or The Original New Testament, The Restored New Testament by Pryse and Watkins, or the Revisde English Bible, or the Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) or Today’s English Version or even The Unvarnished New Testament? All of these and other English Bible’s translate John 1:1-5 differently, like “the logos was divine” etc. demonstrating that it is NOT as cut and dry as you would like or think it to be in order for you to ask your question, which presumes you are asking it from a correct standard when you are not!!! Now granted there are many more Bibles that translate it the way the KJV does it, however, the point remains the same, if this were as cut and dry as you want to believe it is, then there would be no differences in translation in All English Bibles.

Look this up for yourself here below online for free!

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/index.htm
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/name.htm

So again, my question, what expertise do you have in order to decide which one of these are correct, other than your feelings, emotions, and or just plainly sticking by the KJV over all others?

The KJV did not translate from the Hebrew nor Greek, but Latin, and in Latin, there is no rules of grammar to allow you to distinguish from proper and common nouns; in other words, a proper noun is Turtle and a common noun is “writer” therefore in Latin it cannot nor does it ever distinguish “God” from “god” and in the Bible it speaks of different Gods, so in John 1:1, in Latin there is no difference between the two God’s used, though in the Greek there is, and that is why there are different translations of this scripture in English, by those who PREFER or CHOOSE to believe in the way the KJV states it and then try to defend it in Greek (when it was never translated from the Greek in the first place nearly four hundred years ago) verses those that that see this difference in the Greek and do not use Latin for there translations and are honest about what it states in the Greek! Again, if it was a matter that was cut and dry in the Greek then there would be no variations in translation that allow for totally different renderings, one that does imply your teaching is correct and others that state that it is NOT!

As to your “special request” to do this again, you need to be better informed if you wish to do this as ignoring what I post here is NOT the reasonable thing to do let alone the Godly thing to do!

The Bible clearly states the word Jesus was from the “beginning” meaning, he had a beginning, a point that he did not exist, as this cannot apply to God who NEVER HAD A BEGINNING!!!! And yes, God’s Word Jesus, his Son, does in fact speak things that are going to happen and did happen! And no doubt the Bible states clearly that God did all things, “through” him, which means that they are different, as if there were not there would be no need to work through or with someone!!!!

Yes, Jesus is the light of the world and you clearly state that you get to the “Father” through Jesus, speaking of them differently, separately, and not that they are the Same Person!!!!!

As to John 1:14, this applies to Jesus and cannot nor ever apply to God as he had never had a beginning, but Jesus did!

BOTTOM LINE: The Bible does not clearly, plainly, simply nor grammatically state that Jesus is God nor that God is Triune!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

A cheap shot-avoider-player that never deals with the issues wants an answer to his question; as though this answer will some how enlighten the world that his non Bible thinking is correct!


If you did this on purpose then you are an evil minded person, if you did this in error then learn from it to avoid repeating to others who do not know any better and buy into cow poop!

TP

My friend, 'tis not I selling Watchtower Bible & Tract Society poo-poop. You argument is moot. You can not find any of several words in the Bible. Nor can you find any mention of them in any colloquial terms. Should anyone be surprised by your flat out refusal to admit the truth?

[turtle]

Easy way to understand the trinity is. I am a daughter, a wife and a friend but not a wife to anyone but my husband and not a daughter but to my parents(thought I fail miserably) and I can be friend to both groups but I can be a friend to someone else as well.

[praetorian]

My friend, 'tis not I selling Watchtower Bible & Tract Society poo-poop. You argument is moot. You can not find any of several words in the Bible. Nor can you find any mention of them in any colloquial terms. Should anyone be surprised by your flat out refusal to admit the truth?

TATM:

Your ignorance is showing! Again, you NEVER address the issues because you cannot without resorting to insults and going beyond the Bible! Mr. I do not SELL anything, nor do the WTBS, and you should know this, or do you think they EVERYONE here other than the TC and Turtle’s of the world, people with real minds, believe EVERY LIE you spew! I guess the argument is moot because you say so! Well, I guess you are the smartest person in the world, just ask you! Silly ME!!!!

I use the Bible and you use non Bible and avoidance to state your point, and it is I that must be wrong because I don’t agree with you a puny human! Sorry but I will rather err on the side of Bible than a human, as you do think too much of yourself!!!

I am still waiting for you to show me and help me with my error, by showing me ONE scripture that simply, plainly, clearly and grammatically states that Jesus is God and that God is Triune! It is you who believe and carry on with the lies!!!

Revelation 22:15

TP

[praetorian]

Easy way to understand the trinity is. I am a daughter, a wife and a friend but not a wife to anyone but my husband and not a daughter but to my parents(thought I fail miserably) and I can be friend to both groups but I can be a friend to someone else as well.

Turtle:

That is nice but what you describe is self serving and does not fit, any more than I could say in English about yours truly; Me, Myself and I, are one and the same and it is true! However that is NOT what the Bible states about God, nor his Son Jesus! Also, nor is that what is represented or meant by the Trinity or Oneness so your analogy, example does not fit!

If you are to compare this appropriately, you should say something like, I am a Father, and I have a Son, yet me as a person-Father, and my as a person-Son and oh yea, I have another person, to part of me, that is really ONLY ME IN ONE PERSON, as that is NOT what the Bible states plainly states at all!!!!

Think about it: You believe in this and have no scripture that plainly, clearly, simply and grammatically states this and I have many, many scriptures that show that Jesus has a God and Father and more!!! No fanciful explanations needed!!!

I wish you well in your beliefs!!!

TP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM:

Your ignorance is showing! Again, you NEVER address the issues because you cannot without resorting to insults and going beyond the Bible! Mr. I do not SELL anything, nor do the WTBS, and you should know this, or do you think they EVERYONE here other than the TC and Turtle’s of the world, people with real minds, believe EVERY LIE you spew! I guess the argument is moot because you say so! Well, I guess you are the smartest person in the world, just ask you! Silly ME!!!!

I use the Bible and you use non Bible and avoidance to state your point, and it is I that must be wrong because I don’t agree with you a puny human! Sorry but I will rather err on the side of Bible than a human, as you do think too much of yourself!!!

I am still waiting for you to show me and help me with my error, by showing me ONE scripture that simply, plainly, clearly and grammatically states that Jesus is God and that God is Triune! It is you who believe and carry on with the lies!!!

Revelation 22:15

TP

What a fraud!! How udderly arrogant you are indeed. I like this verse!!!

"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:15 KJV

Shall we talk about the many end of the world perdiction your religion has made? hehehehhehehehehehehee

[turtle]

Tp, there are Translationed translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Which is older then caldean text. How do you explain this. As far as new testament it as you know translated from greek and old testament from the Hebrew. Some Bibles are translated by the old roman text that is what you use.