God created EVIL, he says so...I can proove it

[rodney_mccarthy]

Its in the old test

See for yourself...HE created all things, and for a purpose too. Without the devil, no sin, no fall, no need for Jesus to come and to die, no bride, no supper of the lamb, no glory fo God to display to the heavenly host...HE created all things...New test says in Romans, who then can resist His will? Romans ch 7

ON and On we could go...right?

[bluewater2]

I see no evidence that the bible is anything other than a book written by man with man's ideas in it.

The only evidence I see that it is a book of gods words is that is says so. If that is enough for you, cool.

[rodney_mccarthy]

MY STORY

*Please don't be offended by my opinions in the following document, it's not an attack towards anyone.

I came from a violent home, (drugs, alcohol, gun shots, being chased with knives, people thrown thru picture pane windows), in fact I was born three months early because my father kicked my mother in the stomach, and I weighed two pounds nine ounces.

As early as 7yrs old I was out on the streets till 3-4am, I was put in three orphanages... once my father snuck into our house, he put a loaded pistol in my hand and told me too shoot my sisters and my mother, it was crazy. Through all of this, (which I wouldn't change), I came out a fairly normal kid, I was involved in sports and didn't do drugs, or drink. I thought I was a survivor, wanting only too make it through another day.

At age 16 (in 1974) I started too sense a need in my life, an emptiness that I couldn't explain. I knew I had too find God/Jesus, but who was HE? I had no idea where too find HIM, so I went to the local library to find books concerning world religions, God, and the occult. At the library I met an ex hippie (Gary Osborn) he saw my books and decided too share the message with me. Gary invited me to pray in the back of his V.W. so I did, I remember saying "God forgive me for my sins, and whatever you have for me I want it all".

Well at first nothing happened I expected, lightening or something. Gary said, "Just go home and praise God" I said, "What's that, mean" Gary said, "Just thank him" So I did just that.

The remaining is sacred to me, before I asked Jesus into my heart, I never heard voices, I never drank, and I never did drugs, but one week after meeting Jesus while in the middle of my last class (during high school) A voice, just as clear, as someone standing next too you, spoke, and as the voice spoke it said to me, "rod tell them about Jesus" I was surprised, but unafraid, I put my hand over my mouth, since I didn't want anyone too think I was talking too myself, I said (to whoever spoke too me) "I don't know what to say" the voice said "don't be afraid, I'll give you the words to say" To this day I don't remember my words, but I spoke too those kids about Jesus and salvation, their mouths just dropped open and then, class was over, I walked out of that room, feeling like I had never felt before.

The next day was Saturday; I slept in the living room on an old couch. When I woke it was early and I decided too turn on the TV, to watch my favorite cartoon, the roadrunner.

As I sat there watching the TV, I got up and looked outside, everything was so beautiful, (I never appreciated nature, I just wanted too make it through another day). BUT now it was so pretty, I sat back down on the couch, and as I did I was somewhere else.

I was sitting at a long rough huen table, to my right was God, the father, I couldn't see him, to my left was Satan, him I could see (he looked like a man only very big) then in front of me was Jesus, three bowls appear, filled with what looked like porridge. Now the father spoke and said Satan dismiss yourself, Satan stood and screamed, then vanished. Three bites were taken out of the bowl. Then all at once I was watching myself from a distance, walking with Jesus up a grassy pathway. Jesus was speaking to me but from a distance I couldn't hear him, I could see myself shaking my head (like I understand) then thru my eyes I saw the house where I had been sleeping.

I didn't know what had happened; I'd never experienced anything like that, but I knew two things, I had too find a pastor to talk too, and I KNEW GOD loved me and wanted something from me...my total surrender, my life totally under his control, every second, moment by moment, and I was consumed with this one desire, to live too PLEASE HIM. Let me give you an example: When a friend from school would come over and say, "Hey rod." "Let's go to a show" I'd say, "hold on." Then Id go in the bathroom and pray, "Lord should I go?" Sometimes the Lord would say "go", sometimes "no" At times He was silent, when this happened I would look inside, to my heart, (Spirit), (see Colossians 3:15) if I had peace I would go, If not, Id stay home.

As I practiced this new desire, (surrender), I noticed the voice of the Lord became more frequent and clearer, (John 10:27). It always had to agree with scripture. The word of the Lord will always agree with the true meaning and / or the true interpretation of scripture).

I new I needed to get a bible, I went to a bookstore and I got the largest family bible Id ever seen, with pictures and everything. I was so happy. That night the voice of the lord said, "Read Matthew 5." I had to look in the contents; I didn't know where Matthew was. When I found it and started too read, the words became a ("Word of the Lord to me") they just jumped off the page, they seemed to come alive, and they filled me, with hope, love and peace. Now I knew God loved me, and my sins were gone, I was forgiven...

As time passed I grew, sometimes Id walk into a busy office or building (like a D.O.L) and the Lord would say go sit by that guy, I would strike up a conversation, then say "you don't know me but I'm a Christian and God is going too share with me about your life" I don't mean simple things like "you have the flu" or "Headaches", but deep, personal things that others couldn't know or even guess. People would usually start to cry and ask "how did you know?" I'd say "I didn't but God knew".

One of the best lessons from the Lord concerning trusting Him happened like this; I was traveling from Philly to Atlantic city, I got on the road, and started to hitch a ride, (it wasn't illegal at that time) within one hour and twenty minuets I was in Atlantic city (which was a one hour drive!) I got 4 different rides, as I stepped into each vehicle I boldly proclaimed "Hi I'm a child of the King, and God's going to bless you for picking me up!" God gave me very personal details about each of those people and all but one came to Christ.

When I got to Atlantic City, God said "Rod, when you get to the prayer meeting tonight I want you to give all your money, to Johnnie Diaz". I said "Lord that's all I've got?" (About 300.00) God replied; "you take care of your brothers and sisters in the Lord and I'll take care of you." So upon arriving in Atlantic City, I secretly gave all my money to Johnnie, (this was to cover something for Johnnie that was very personal, so I know he didn't share this with anyone).

That night I asked myself "how am I going to get back to work, tomorrow? I didn't have a penny, not even enough for bus fare, and in my spirit I knew I wasn't to hitch hike, but instead the Lord wanted me on the bus. After sleeping that night and leaving the brothers house the next day, (where the meeting had been held), I started walking to the bus station. As I got closer and closer, I was imagining, "is the drivers going to just "know" he's suppose to let me ride for free?" But as I approached the depot, a brother named "Chicky" came out of his house and said "rod I think the Lord wants me to give this to you." It was exactly what I needed for bus fare!

This has been a short summary of my life, oh one more thing. Life didn't continue this way for me, I ruined that. Should I confess the most difficult thing in my life with you? After all we are strangers! After living this way for sometime and seeing my life change, and having peace beyond comprehension, I disobeyed the lord after he spoke too me. I lived to obey him, it was my passion…I knew a man, he was a believer, and his name was Bob Chorney. Bob was like the father I never had. Bob is dead now, I loved him very much, and we forgave one another.

One day I went to visit Bob, we talked and prayed for a while then Bob said, "rod", "Paula is gone (Bob's wife). "Why don't you go to dinner with me"? Immediately the Lord spoke and said "rod don't go" I said Bobby I can't go. He said "oh rod go with me ". I said Bob I can't. I prayed back too the lord, in my mind saying "Lord it will be alright, you know I don't drink, I'll just eat something with Bob" The Lord didn't reply. So we went. All was well until a brother named Aggie Rodriguez, started to argue with Bob, I couldn't watch, so I started to leave, as I went outside Bob said "Rod if your going to walk you might as well walk all the way back too Washington, and don't come back" OH the pain. Well the next morning, Bob and Paula showed up, Bob said "rod forgive me I'm so sorry", the Lord spoke instantly and said "rod forgive him, go too him tell him it's ok and that you love him". I said "Lord I can't. I won't, it hurts too bad".

Soon I left for Washington. My life, outside of God's will, was torture. No peace, no answers, sin in total control. Now years later, I painfully confess that I don't live the surrendered life now.

Jean Nicholas Grou says, "God delights in two things, for a man too know God and too know himself." I now know what I'm capable of without him, living life for myself, Sinning, being rebellious. I want to recommend a couple books that I discovered a few years ago, the book is "Practicing the presence" BY Lawrence and Labach, there are two versions this one is best and includes Labach's testimony. "Hinds feet on High places" and "The breaking of the outer man for the release of the spirit" By Watchman Nee are very good also.

Now let me share some thoughts/opinions:

1).How do you describe this LIFE? As a Christian it's hard to do. As I recall moments in my own life, I think of times of stillness, in the midst of activity or in the quiet of night. The presence of His Spirit was there, sometimes speaking other times He was silent, yet the undeniable presence of His Spirit was so real. You couldn't describe it too anyone else, sometimes he was so near, almost physical, at other times He was, just felt, deep in your heart.

I could at times think, and He would answer. Sometimes the answer was spoken, and at other times it was a still small voice in my heart.

Sometimes I would see a person, and while looking at them, I knew about them.

I recall the passion to tell others about him at any given moment, looking for such an occasion never caring where I was, or who was near by.

Constantly His Love moved over me in waves and yet it abode, never departing. I would wake up in the middle of the night and He was there, like a mother hen.

I remember the love for others that was not my own. I remember feeling, and being, separate from the world yet still in its midst.

I recall not worrying about the kind of car I drove, or the condition of my clothes, knowing that He was fully aware of all these things.

I recall being invited out for dinner with brothers, and thinking (silently between myself and God), "Lord I don't have any money, but I'm hungry" and then someone would say "hey rod I'll buy ok?" Do you have days like this?

Do you remember days like this from your past? I believe this is something no one can take from us. This is why WE MUST EXPERIENCE GOD! Experiencing God is more important than the scriptures! You see if you experience HIM then, Bible revelation can be added to you. But if you don't experience HIM first then Bible knowledge is just a compilation of facts, they are true, but they don't have any place of reference, without HIM.

2).Most of my life, at least as far back as I can remember I've had a desire and love for God/Jesus. As I've grown older, I've seen many things in "Christendom", I've seen communes (come and go in failure). I've seen myself and other brothers walk in their own ways (you might call it backsliding), I've been hurt by supposed brothers in Christ, I've seen TV preachers act cocky, and ridiculous, I've seen people chase tithes and money, I've seen people in big churches (faithful tithers) go without help while in need, I've seen people chase their own kingdom and building programs. I've seen people pretend to prophecy, knowing they were not HEARING from HIM, (and in failure, excuse themselves by saying they were practicing), I've seen names in lights (but not Jesus name). I've seen people destroyed by the sheparding movement. I've seen men of god after devoting their lives to "the ministry" destroyed after a single mistake, instead of forgiven. On and on I could go... So does any of the above remind you of the book of acts or the first group of believers?

This is why I believe we must have and will have change. God is not interested in a "body" with spot or wrinkle. As I searched different churches, communities, and internet sites, I've come across a hand full of people that have the essence/smell of life and others who are just religious (relating to God only in their learning and mind), yet I yearn for true brethren and their fellowship, realizing that only God can cause these people to be gathered together and revealed to one another, and have them be in accord with one mind. Jesus may give the gift of eternal life to some, that's His prerogative, but to say all people have the same "experience/fellowship/love relationship" with Jesus or each other is not correct. We see the difference in people (John, Peter, Paul) and we see the same differences through-out time, we see times of revival (1900's, 1940's, 1970's) and in each of these times we see tare and wheat together. We see a time of purity and passion then a colder period, where men's hearts seem to grow cold, and God becomes a forgotten memory.

In contrast we never see this in churches, they are always attended by praying people, people arguing scriptures and doctrine, yet hardly ever displaying life as we see in the same revival periods. Yes I believe mercy, calls for a move of God again.

3).One more reason, I believe we need change is because the gospel needs to be preached. We believe the gospel has been preached, from the generosity of America, but I think this is only true in very narrow windows of time (revival 1900's, 1940's, 1970's etc) and only by certain persons (who knew HIM). Then of course there is the occasional believer who is submitted to the (breathings) of the Spirit, this believer shares out of the reservoir of undeniable life (the fellowship between this believer and the Spirit). This bears fruit since it's not just a message of words but is accompanied by this fellowship and life. The preaching of the gospel by religious folks just doesn't work! How could it, they are not ambassadors of the very Spirit, since they refuse to give up their life thru that act of ultimate (life giving) which is the "surrender of self". The first century church in the New Testament turned the world upside down in a short time NOT because of their words alone but because of the LIFE residing IN them. This was a spirit thing...NOT a mental thing, it wasn't an agreement with certain doctrines or creeds, it wasn't from arguing the scriptures, it wasn't from forming a new church or denomination, they had and were living LIFE like Jesus 24/7 every moment of each day, a life of submission, pleasing the father, a life defined by others as "seeing they had been with Jesus". Being in his presence and service, is the key, Paul called this being a love slave, a life like Paul's multiplied thousands of times over will "again" cause the world to SEE and HEAR the TRUE gospel.

4). In the 1860's 1900's 1940's 1960's we saw the beginning of several moves of God upon people who were desperate to know HIM. They found the one they were seeking for.

Then shortly after in each time period, (even in the new testament) we see charlatans, hirelings move in among the sheep of God, these men who really don't know the master teach doctrines not from revelation via an intimate relationship. But from the minds of others who were also like themselves, who teach only from the tree of knowledge: From the mind of one man to the mind of another, thereby polluting the little sheep and convincing others, because the so-called doctrines of men are believed by the masses also.

This is such a subtle thing that it can inhibit your walk, because you're not discipled but instead taught by men who have never had an intimate walk with God. So as believers we must know Him and find revelation that agrees with the scriptures, and or that changes our understanding of the scriptures.

5). I often wonder how these spiritual things work...It's hard to find answers sometimes since we are mortal. And often IF you are like me, its hard to keep on believing that God can find a good reason to go on loving me...

But as I look back...I see of course some differences, the late 60's thru the mid 70's were a move of god, especially for the young...We always see (under an anointing) god doing unusual graceful things in the lives of people...Then it tapers off...Probably so as not too be common and taken for granted by us.

So where does an experience in God begin? I have to believe (and remember I'm limited by my mortality and limited knowledge so I could be wrong), it starts with God putting a hunger in your heart....Now if that hunger exists, and it sounds as though it does, for you sound like a seeker...then

I would approach God in a simple fashion, (for me it was doing the only thing I knew to do, I went to the Library to research books about religion and god). then shortly after I prayed with Gary (see testimony) I just knew in my heart that god wanted my whole life, every thought belonged to him, SO I just started with my thoughts, if I had a thought that came into my mind and it said "give that person a bible" or "tell that person that you are a Christian and that you will be praying for them" then I would obey....

One day I told a Christian brother about this (thought stuff) and how I judged my thoughts by the little knowledge I had of the bible, and if my thoughts were agreeable (good things vs. evil) then I would obey... This brother told me too keep on obeying those thoughts as long as they agreed with scripture, and as I did then the thoughts would go from just thoughts, too the voice of the Lord, (my sheep know my voice) (sheep follow-they are surrendered to their master), well just as this brother said, it did indeed happen that way for me...So seek HIM and if you can do today, what I can't seem to do (surrender with all your heart)...I'm sure you will meet HIM, maybe in a different experience, but never the less I'm sure His goal will be the same...To possess your whole heart.

6). A Christian historian tells a true story about a peasant in the 1600's living under the rule of the Catholic Church. The peasant is working the field and a cardinal and his procession go by, as they approach the cardinal speaks to the peasant, about a new edict from Rome. The cardinal quotes a verse of scripture; the peasant replies that the cardinal quoted the verse incorrectly. The cardinal says to the peasant "How would you know, being you are unlearned and illiterate?" The peasant replies: "because the spirit IN ME said you quoted it wrong"!

How true this is, if we only have the book and don't hear that still small voice on the inside, from the throne of our heart the center of HIS kingdom! Then I fear we miss the most important piece of intimacy, yet HIS Word and HIS scriptures work together, one a current guide for us THE NOW and the other, which can still speak but was spoken to another hundreds of years ago, serves as a foundation. But We live by breath, and the words that proceed from the mouth of God, "My sheep know my voice" "for those who are sons of God are led of the spirit of God".

[bluewater2]

"How true this is, if we only have the book and don't hear that still small voice on the inside"

Certainly that still small voice is available to and heard by many of many faiths, even those that do not believe in god at all. It is that internal physician that is spoken about.

I am glad that you have made it seemingly damage free from what appears to have been a very difficult youth. If you want to credit the bible,god and Jesus as the reason, more power too you. Just understand, "different strokes for different folks." There is more than one path to "that kingdom within you."

[truth_child]

rod ... you must remember that GOD did not do anything to you nor does HE to any one we bring it all on our selves. true due to your violent life style you had many things happen but GOD was still there and HE did not cause it all . look to JESUS instead of a voice if you look to GOD,,, JESUS ,,, not another god HE WILL HELP you in every situation and where it say GOD created evil it means that as he created everything GOOD it showed up all the evil it showed up the devil and that is why it is said that HE (GOD) created both good and evil

[trainedobserver]

Rod,

Thank you so much for taking the time to tell your story here. I was moved by it. I certainly saw in it many parallels to my own struggles with these things as a young believer in Atlanta. Your story also strongly shadows my brother's experience. We differ greatly in one respect however, I never heard audible voices or had visions even though I desired and prayed for those kind of experiences a great deal.

The desire to serve the Lord and walk in his righteousness and his will was a paramount concern for me. Like you, I prayed over practically every decision I made. It can make for some incredibly stressful times. (note to ba, this is the type of mental noise I was referring to)

bluewater said,

"Certainly that still small voice is available to and heard by many of many faiths, even those that do not believe in god at all. It is that internal physician that is spoken about."

Ahh and there is the rub is it not? Many would refer to this 'voice' as intuition and it is universally experienced in one form or another by everyone to some degree or another and every religion has a framework it forces it into that gives this voice an identity other than 'you'.

The thought lives of human beings are complex things aren't they? It has been shown that what we 'think' about our own thoughts can cause us trouble if we aren't careful. Children, the most inexperienced with the life of the mind, often confuse things that happen in their imaginations with what is real and there are things that can make this a problem for adults as well.

It appears to me that these types experiences (the terminology may change) are universal to human beings regardless of their religious beliefs. I think Religion is something human beings use to give meaning and allow some sense of understanding of them.

The real problem boils down to this. The disparity between the religions. If believer of Religion X experiences god speaking to him and believer in Religion Y experiences god speaking to him while at the same time a non-believer experiences something similar and calls it intuition, higher self, or whatever then what does it mean? One is right and the rest are wrong. All are right? None are right? Something in between? By their fruits then? Good fruits are available from all along with the bad. It is a perplexing problem and to me it seems the answer lies outside of the ability of the human mind to determine with any degree of certainty. Only one thing seems certain to me at this point and it is that whatever Ultimate Reality is, it isn't anything that the human mind has imagined to explain away the paradoxes, inconsistencies, and problems of existence. The subset cannot comprehend or describe the superset. It is logical impossibly due to a lack of resources. Try to describe the complete Alphabet with only a subset of 5 letters. It cannot be done. Why do we think we can even hold within our minds something as beyond us as a creator-god-being thing would have to be? A combination of arrogance and ignorance perhaps?

I still find myself pleading for guidance, help, or just "another bone" to be thrown my way by life, the universe, the spirit of truth, or whatever and at times I've found myself wondering if something hasn't responded. I loved Jesus so much. I still do I suppose, I love the Jesus my imagination constructed from selected scripture readings, sermons, and my own thoughts. My Jesus said he would never leave or forsake, that where our faith failed his would not, and then there is a promise of being held up by the strong hand of God even though we are weak. Perhaps in the back of mind, I still cling to this hope, that through my efforts to be honest and truthful with myself I have not separated myself from anything if were truly there to begin with. I've concluded the truth of the matter must be greater than the sum total of human religious thought so beating ourselves up over the matter is pointless.

You're right Rod. The Bible does quote its god as saying that he created Evil. To me this is a completely logical statement in context and I'm a bit amazed at the reluctance of most Christians to even read this part of the Bible in an honest fashion. An example of which we've already been treated to I see. The morality of the god of the Bible (as evidenced by his commands and actions) isn't something that would be tolerated in the modern world. Genocide, Infanticide, family desertion, animal and human sacrifice, ... and so forth. Of course these moral difficulties can be rationalized away with any number of excuses and attention deflecting strategies that I'm sure if you aren't already familiar with you soon will be.

I say I'm an atheist now because I cannot justify my former belief system any longer and I cannot see how anything else from the human imagination/ Religion toy box is any better. There is a tremendous amount of evidence that hearing voices and seeing visions can't be trusted either. I have been around enough people who were hallucinating for various reasons to know you can't trust everything you see or hear. Our brain/mind systems are constructed in such a way that ... well it makes it difficult to determine where the system is just talking to itself or getting input from the 'outside' in some manner as in 'supernatural' intervention or inspiration.

Good luck to you Rod. My heart really goes out to you man. My wish for you is one of peace. My only cogent advice, be honest with, and not so hard, on yourself.

[ba2]

trained, you said: […The desire to serve the Lord and walk in his righteousness and his will was a paramount concern for me. I prayed over practically every decision I made. It can make for some incredibly stressful times… “Re: Christianity fills the mind with such noise it is difficult to imagine for those not consumed by it.”]

I do see exactly what you mean. You were a prisoner of mind control but at least you were fortunate enough to be able to escape the prison. Mind control at its best.

One thing not often mentioned, it seems that many who are so caught in the web of fundamentalism have a story. They have had tremendous, sometimes horrible experiences. For those who were perpetrators of terrible things, sometimes the only positive thing they can see with their lives is that they come to believe that they will have everlasting life. No matter what the crime … the thief, the horrendous murderer, the child rapist… no matter how terrible they were, no matter how bad, they are can be saved for eternity. This of course, is absurd. And if it were true, pretty much an insult to every good, decent person that walks the planet.

On the other end, we have those who were given a bad break in life… perhaps they were victims of horrible crime, perhaps they or their loved ones suffered through some terrible illness. They might come to believe that they will be rewarded for their suffering….

I hear these stories often, and I just listen in disbelief. Yet, I can understand how some could come to these strong beliefs. The criminal on death row, I am told that many are born again Christians. But what else do they have to look forward to? For some people, maybe it is a need to believe that even they, as lowly as they are, can experience paradise.

The biggest problem I’m afraid, is that there are too many flim-flam preachers out there. Some of them are probably honest flim-flam artists, that is, they truly believe they are doing the right thing. “Give all your money to God and drop it in the basket going around” And too many naive people that are ripe for the taking.

[Night_Light]

"The biggest problem I’m afraid, is that there are too many flim-flam preachers out there. Some of them are probably honest flim-flam artists, that is, they truly believe they are doing the right thing. “Give all your money to God and drop it in the basket going around” And too many naive people that are ripe for the taking".Ba2


That was very well said Ba...and good points that can be understood by all..sometimes people just need a saviour and we need to understand it may just be the thing that keeps them alive..R

[truth_child]

nightlight i will freely admit that there are many flim flam artist out there but they are not saved or else they are far out of GODS will like baalam when he went any way where GOD had told him no to go. but tha doesnt give the right for anyone to say there are not real prophets today. if a man ( or woman ) prophecies it will be to bless and to help someone not ever to hurt them

[rodney_mccarthy]

ThankYou for the kind words...I don't want to seem to persuade, thats not my place, but the one I look to is Jesus...God must draw those who come to Jesus...Why not draw everyone? If God so loved the world? My answer, some are destined for the kingdom...I can't escape this fact, its the same as God creating evil...Now what happens to all those who are not destined to salvation, when hell is destroyed? We are eternal right?

So many unanswered questions and most people get there answers from the book, instead of Jesus who lives on the inside, the throne of our heart (the kingdom).

They only have a relationship with the written text, the book.

God Bless you, I will pray for you, do the same for me, ok?

Thanks again, interesting post, remember Jesus IS REAL and HE is there...

[truth_child]

rod no one is predestined to go to heaven or hell

[trainedobserver]

>We are eternal right?

There are no perpetual motion machines. I can't see any evidence of an eternal anything. All forms eventually collapse, all energy eventually changes to another state, nothing escapes the eventuality of change.

>God Bless you, I will pray for you, do the same for me, ok?

I no longer 'pray' to the Jesus I once believed in because I don't believe that Jesus actually existed or exists. As I said, I recognize that the Jesus I loved was a product of my mind and the information that had been supplied to it from questionable sources. The reality of such a being, if such a thing exists, is much greater than any story that has been told.

I do appreciate the sentient however and I wish you well.

[trainedobserver]

trained, you said: […The desire to serve the Lord and walk in his righteousness and his will was a paramount concern for me. I prayed over practically every decision I made. It can make for some incredibly stressful times… “Re: Christianity fills the mind with such noise it is difficult to imagine for those not consumed by it.”]

I do see exactly what you mean. You were a prisoner of mind control but at least you were fortunate enough to be able to escape the prison. Mind control at its best.



I do feel very fortunate to have done so. I just wish it hadn't taken so long and that I wouldn't have involved so many others before it happened. However, if I look at the self as a process rather than an actual thing it makes more sense to me. I accept my history for what it is and embrace my mistakes and failures that I made along the way from which I learned a great deal that I might otherwise not have.

[truth_child]

trained observer if as you say you once beleived in JESUS but dont any more if you will check your self you never did beleive any way.

[trainedobserver]

trained observer if as you say you once beleived in JESUS but dont any more if you will check your self you never did beleive any way.

Yes, yes, that is a typical knee-jerk response from a mind pre-programed with 1 John 2:19. Well, you are wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about concerning my life and I'm quite sure no amount of explanation will make much of a difference. There are a few people here that do understand what it means epistemologically but are you willing to make the effort? No cut and paste responses please.

[trainedobserver]

Back to who created Evil. In reality, as Blue points out, the Bible is a product of human beings. Humans thought it up, they wrote it down, and they have edited it continuously for hundreds of years. Neither the Bible, its god, nor Israelite mystics originated the concept of Evil however. It is older than they are, it is ingrained in us by the fundamental processes of survival. Good and Evil are part of the dualistic setting of the human mind. Right and left, this and that, enemy and friend, food and poison.

In reality, it is impossible to tell what is "good" and what is "bad" as quite often fortunate events like finding a horse can end up in a fall and a bad limp from a broken leg which in turn can keep you from being conscripted into military service and so on and so forth. Something often seems more desirable at the moment which might result in undesirable outcomes and visa versa. Things are as they are and you must navigate them the best way you can to result in the least suffering for all things. All else is just language.

[truth_child]

trained ... no if you had ever beleived you would still beleive.

[trainedobserver]

trained ... no if you had ever beleived you would still beleive.

Do mean that there is some 'supernatural' aspect of believing (i before the E) in Christ as oppossed to some other object which prevents changing your mind at some future date? Or do you think that once you actually 'believe' anything you never change your mind when presented with new information no matter what?

[trainedobserver]

trained ... no if you had ever beleived you would still beleive.

This is part and parcel one of the problems with religion in general and Christianity specifically. Those who, for whatever reason, refuse to educate themselves philosophically beyond their inherited or early adopted ideologies often cannot entertain the idea that someone might actually change their religious beliefs based on new information and or reflection.

[Godsgal]

If I could add my two cents here...

trained ... no if you had ever beleived you would still beleive.
...that's not true. Sometimes bad stuff happens to people and they refuse to believe. Or...people can get really cynical about stuff that goes on in different churches and refuse to believe. There's a variety of reasons. Even God Himself says that if someone backslides or 'have left their first love' and didn't like it having experienced it, it'll be harder for them to come back. Again, I don't know anyone here so I'm not judging. Just merely stating that people can change their minds.

This is part and parcel one of the problems with religion in general and Christianity specifically. Those who, for whatever reason, refuse to educate themselves philosophically beyond their inherited or early adopted ideologies often cannot entertain the idea that someone might actually change their religious beliefs based on new information and or reflection.

I agree with this statement - to an extent. Not all Christians view everything from an ideological point of view. There are many who have questioned things and they still do believe. As humans, we are to look at things with an open mind, question its validity, etc.

[truth_child]

Gods gal trained observer is not a christian so i was not talking about people in the church but about some one who claims to have beleived in JESUS and now doesnt

[Godsgal]

Yes, I do realize that. I'm new here -- therefore I don't know anyone. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I don't know what's talked about in other threads since I haven't had the change to look through all of them. I just commented based on what I've read in this thread and this thread only.

Just a thought: If Christianity was so easy and everything was fully spelled out, more people would believe. However, it isn't an easy lifestyle...and therefore people would choose to live by what they can reason. If they don't have the answer to something, then it usually isn't believed to be right or true or valid or whatever.

[truth_child]

i think that the bible spells out THE WORD OF GOD correctly (for it IS THE WORD OF GOD ) i take what the bible says and stand on it

[trainedobserver]

Do mean that there is some 'supernatural' aspect of believing (i before the E) in Christ as oppossed to some other object which prevents changing your mind at some future date? Or do you think that once you actually 'believe' anything you never change your mind when presented with new information no matter what?

Are you unwilling or unable to discuss what 'believing' in something means?

[truth_child]

beleiveing in something mean that you bleive it with your whole heart that you have faith in it and that nothing can sway you

[trainedobserver]

beleiveing in something mean that you bleive it with your whole heart that you have faith in it and that nothing can sway you

Please present an example where this is beneficial in a real world setting. A simple example from your life or lives of others would work.

Have you never believed something to be true only later to find out something that you didn't know that changed your belief? Or do you once forming an opinon, avoid all further input on the subject?

Have you never changed your belief in who would make the best president during a campaign or who might win the world series? Or have you always 'picked one' and gone with it regardless of new data or changing circumstances?

Have you never believed that something was good for you only to find out later that it was not? You didn't continue doing what was bad for you did you out dogmatic insistence did you?

Have you never believed something to be true only later to learn it was not? You didn't continue to insist that your mistaken notion was actually the truth did you?

Have you never believed that you were capable of something only to change your belief later when you realized you couldn't?

Normal healthy human beings can change their minds everyday about numerous subjects unless their minds are being controlled by something or someone else. Insisting that they do not or can not change a belief about any subject, even Jesus, is to deny reality and your own humanity. The fact that you cannot accept that I was a Christian since age 11, studied, taught, and read the Bible backward and forward for over 30 years, was an ordained minister and was a committed and enthusiastic Christian for the majority of that time and am now an atheist/agnostic/wannabe-heathen is your cognitive dissidence problem not mine. I feel for you ... I used to parrot the same lines you do. There is hope. You and those like you can be free.

[Godsgal]

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking or trying to get at...but...alright, here's an everyday example someone had once told me:

Take a chair. In the corner of your room, at your desk, in the dining room, whereever. A chair. You sit down in that chair when you feel like sitting because you believe it will hold you up. You don't know for sure because that chair might have a loose something somewhere and it could crumble under you. But you sit down - in faith.

Is that the type of example you were looking for?

And if you don't mind me asking...what happened or how is it that you became an athiest after 30 years of being a Christian?

[trainedobserver]

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking or trying to get at...but...alright, here's an everyday example someone had once told me:

Take a chair. In the corner of your room, at your desk, in the dining room, whereever. A chair. You sit down in that chair when you feel like sitting because you believe it will hold you up. You don't know for sure because that chair might have a loose something somewhere and it could crumble under you. But you sit down - in faith.

Is that the type of example you were looking for?

And if you don't mind me asking...what happened or how is it that you became an athiest after 30 years of being a Christian?

The chair breaks and you fall on the floor. Do you still "believe in the chair"?

[Godsgal]

haha, I see what you're getting at. I think.

That's an example of natural faith - something everyone has. Like I said...you don't know for sure whether or not that chair will hold you up (unless you saw something loose and sat on it anyway -- in which case, people would have to question your sanity ;) ) but if you don't see anything wrong, you usually would sit on it. If it breaks, then there was something loose somewhere (in many religions, there is 'something loose somewhere). That chair wasn't strong enough to hold you. But... not every chair you sit down on breaks. ...what if the chair doesn't ever break? And you never sit in it... you miss out.

Yes, there are flaws in Christianity as a religion. That's just a religion. God isn't just a religious figure. When one views Him as just a religious figure, it's undermining His power. And then I can understand how a Christian can turn into an athiest, after tasting what it was like. The chair didn't break. It was just uncomfortable. Or a bit painful.

I trust in God. My God is strong enough to hold me. He won't let me fall. (That statement is to be taken spiritually - not literally).

[bluewater2]

I sit in a chair called logic and reason and it has not shown itself to have any loose parts. I don't always have an understanding of all the parts, but it has never let me down.

[Godsgal]

^^ If I may borrow your sentence...

I sit in a chair called Jesus and He has not shown Himself to have any loose parts. I don't always have an understanding of all the parts of Christ, but He has never let me down.

[bluewater2]

I see the chair called Jesus, and I see the chair called God, but it requires too much faith to believe either will hold me up. I do not see anything that these chairs have to offer me that the chair I have chosen does not. Do you?

[Godsgal]

Since I'm going on vacation, this will be my last reply for a few days on this thread.

Logic and reason isn't everything. It'll get you through some of life. I'd like a chair that would hold me all throughout life and beyond. And I've found that chair...and I have chosen to sit on it; and it has held me up thusfar. I find no reason to get off of it just because others have found the chair uncomfortable and have chosen to sit on a chair that suits their needs temporarily.

[bluewater2]

"I'd like a chair that would hold me all throughout life and beyond."

Ahhhhhhh. Thats the crux of it, isn't it. You believe in mysticism and the supernatural, life after death. I see no reason to believe there is such a place, and am content in the knowledge that this is the life we have and to make the most of it, do the best we can with what we have.

"I find no reason to get off of it just because others have found the chair uncomfortable and have chosen to sit on a chair that suits their needs temporarily."

I find the use of your word "temporarily" quite revealing. Are you saying that you KNOW something I don't? Or could it simply be that you believe differently than I and that your beliefs are no more or less truth than are mine?

[truth_child]

blue when you start to die you will find that "your chair" (not beleiving in GOD )will not hold you up and you will fall

[bluewater2]

"blue when you start to die you will find that "your chair" (not beleiving in GOD )will not hold you up and you will fall"

Certainly, that is what you believe. There is no way to know it. This is where your faith comes in so handy for you.

What do you think will happen as I "start to die?"

[truth_child]

as you start to die blue i think you will see hell and the devils coming to get you. it will be an awful time so tkae time now to beleive IN AND ON JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOR AND ACEPT HIM INTO your heart

[bluewater2]

TC says, "as you start to die blue i think you will see hell and the devils coming to get you."

Wow, aaron, no wonder you have been frightened into believing as you do. That sounds pretty scary.

That has not been the experience of those that I have seen die. Interesting.

[truth_child]

im not frightend blue for im saved and prepared to die. of course i dont want to i dont think nayone in their right mind wants to die bu i am prpared.

[truth_child]

and i was frightened into it either

[bluewater2]

Well, lucky for me. I do not believe in heaven or hell after death, let alone the devil and demons. I only believe that we must do the best we can with this life. If that is not good enough for your god, I am not interested. Thanks.

[truth_child]

still you will die one day and you will know then (too late ) that there is GOD

[bluewater2]

"still you will die one day and you will know then (too late ) that there is GOD"

Faith, that thing that allows you to believe something inspite of evidence to the contrary, comes in handy for people like you at times like this. You can only believe this is no. There is no way for you to know it.

[truth_child]

i beeleive you when you say you will not beleive. so my friend when you die i will never get to meet you as i will be in heaven (which you dont beleive in ) and you will be in hell ( which you dont beleive in, but you will on that great day )

[bluewater2]

"i beeleive you when you say you will not beleive. so my friend when you die i will never get to meet you as i will be in heaven"

I guess that leaves having to meet when we are alive, then. Ya never know, as unlikely as it is.

Nice chatting with you.

[truth_child]

blue always remember that i am praying for you to be abeliever

[bluewater2]

I think that what you are praying for is your selfish desire to see me in heaven.

[truth_child]

no my buddy... i am praying that you will be saved

[bluewater2]

I don't need saving, thank you. That is your belief system you are trying to put on me. I do not agree with it.

[trainedobserver]

Wait a minute, wait a minute!

This is not about anything other than getting "truth-child" to make an honest attempt at explaining what they meant! I was trying to give them the opportunity to clarify their strange definition of what "believing" means. It is obviously just entirely too much to ask.

The inability to address this issue is a sign of a lack of effort in thinking this, even the most basic of questions through. You have to think about this!

And the rest of you! We haven't even gotten to a point in this conversation where there is a mutual understanding of what belief means how in the world can than be a debate over 'objects' of belief! It would comical if I were of a cynical nature. As it is its only depressing.

This is so not a discussion using the 'chair' metaphor in discussing objects of belief. The 'chair metaphor' is something someone heard in church to describe 'faith' which they have mistakenly taken to mean 'belief'.

The definition of 'belief' as truthchild defined it is completely irrational. Very much so! We can't get past that! There isn't a circumstance where it makes any sense whatsoever. The 'chair metaphor' isn't one!!

How lame. How weak. Think about this for your own sakes. Stop parroting things!

Does any one of you actually want to defend truthchild's definition of what it means to believe something? Here it is again just as they wrote it, "beleiveing in something mean that you bleive it with your whole heart that you have faith in it and that nothing can sway you"

That is cool-aid drinking kind of thinking that is going on there, plain and simple! It is unjustifiable and dangerous. I would not advise anyone to think that way about anything.

[truth_child]

belief is faith in some one or something that cant be shaken.. so trained observer tell me what that means to you about what you asked, please if you can tell me what belief or faith is

[bluewater2]

"belief is faith in some one or something that cant be shaken"

No, actually, faith is the ability to believe in something inspite of the fact that evidence shows otherwise.

[trainedobserver]

belief is faith in some one or something that cant be shaken..

No. that is not what a belief is in the English language. From your conversation it is very apparent that you don't understand the difference between faith, belief, or knowledge. How can you think that you could lead anyone to a saving knowledge and faith in anything?

so trained observer tell me what that means to you about what you asked, please if you can tell me what belief or faith is

A belief is opinion or conviction that someone holds about something. That is all the word actually means. It says nothing about how the opinion or conviction is formed or its permanence. Opinions and convictions are based on information and can change with new information or the introduction of new evidence. The opinions of judges and juries are often changed by the introduction of new evidence for example. Were this not the case justice would be impossible.

Faith in the common usage means nothing more than the placing of confidence or trust in some object. Again, it says nothing about how the confidence or trust is formed or its longevity. Confidence and trust is also based on information and can change with the introduction of new evidence. Our faith in political candidates, product brands, or even friends and family can change based on new things we learn about them.

Religious faith on the other hand is a special case and it speaks specifically to the notion of accepting something without proper supporting evidence or in the face of contradicting evidence. What truthchild has been trying to talk about is something called religious faith and has no place in the real world and in real situations. It doesn't work and it only applies to religious fantasy not real life situations. Irreversible religious faith is a fantasy as there are numerous cases of men and women of all manner of religious faiths though out history changing religions and beliefs as they mature, change, and acquire new information and life experiences. Ignorance of these facts doesn't change them.

As you can see from this thread, religious thought is illogical, irrational, and doesn't apply to the real world. Those who employ it here are showing us they are so lazy in their thinking that they had yet to recognize the difference between belief, faith, knowledge, or religious faith. Who setting out on a journey looking for the truth would not settle these things first if not immediately upon the way?

This is exactly what I have been getting at since day one! If you don't think about this business then you're its slave. You're a slave to the prophets and the wanna-be messiahs, the dishonest preachers and pedophile priests and their greed-guilt empire systems. If you can't think about these very basic philosophical questions for YOURSELF then you'll just be some parroting puppet foolishly repeating the half-understood stories you half-hear in church.

[trainedobserver]

Blue, you need to be 'saved' from rational thinking! You need to be 'graced' with the ability to accept what you are told without question and despite any contradictory common sense or actual experience you may have! Only then, in that particular state of grace, are you the proper prey for the righteous representatives of cosmic creator beings and the household gods of ancient nomadic tribes.

[bluewater2]

Ironic, isn't it? My wife and I drive around with stickers on our cars that say, "Annoy a conservative, think for yourself". I have always found it interesting that the one tree that we were not supposed to eat from in the garden was the tree of the knowledge of right and wrong. I guess we need god rather than our common sense to know the difference between the two. NOT!!!

[truth_child]

trained both you and blue to be get saved

[trainedobserver]

trained both you and blue to be get saved

You want us to be mind-controlled like yourself then?

Mind control cults want their prospects to believe whatever they tell them without question. Questioning is wrong. Attempting to discuss things beyond the pat robotic responses they are programed with is wrong. All cults are like that.

What does it take to have an honest conversation in this forum? Unquestioning acceptance of whatever someone says regardless of the fact that they can't explain themselves or their thoughts in their own words?

Like I already told you but your programming won't accept it, I was a mind-controlled thoughtless parroting puppet like yourself, I got better. You can too. Think for yourself.

[truth_child]

whos trying to control your mind "trained" im not im just telling you both that you need to beleive ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND be saved one day you will see what you have missed by not accepting HIM

[trainedobserver]

whos trying to control your mind "trained" im not im just telling you both that you need to beleive ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND be saved one day you will see what you have missed by not accepting HIM

I give up. You are a robot.

[truth_child]

no im not a robot for GOD did not create robots HE created man with a free will to choose or reject HIM and you and blue have made your choice

[fatherofaking]

How else can you explain it?

[trainedobserver]

no im not a robot for GOD did not create robots HE created man with a free will to choose or reject HIM and you and blue have made your choice

But you refuse to use that free will, instead you choose to surrender it to the imaginations and wills of others. You prove that here in this perfect example of robotic, programmed thinking: "beleiveing in something mean that you bleive it with your whole heart that you have faith in it and that nothing can sway you". -truthchild

The inability to accept new data and change your opinon accordingly IS robotic thinking. It is the kind of thinking that cults promote. There is no situation in life where thinking like that is healthy or human.

[trainedobserver]

How else can you explain it?

If we step away from the Biblical context ...

The concepts of good and evil are human concepts. They exist only within the human mind as it attempts to explain and categorize events that it experiences. Good and evil are value judgments by definition. In thier absolute forms Good is that which is Creative and Evil is that which is Destructive. Its an inescapable dualism in human interaction with the world.

It can be shown that what is ultimately 'good' and what is ultimately 'bad' is often impossible to judge due to insufficient information and our inability to see into the future.

[fatherofaking]

If we step away from the Biblical context ...

The bible was the context of the original post.

While human beings are responsible for the creation of the semantics of evil, whatever creative force is responsible for human beings ultimately is responsible for the deeds of those human beings.

[trainedobserver]

The bible was the context of the original post.

While human beings are responsible for the creation of the semantics of evil, whatever creative force is responsible for human beings ultimately is responsible for the deeds of those human beings.

I don't think that necessarily follows. The fundamental processes of creation are most likely unconcerned with these issues. Please see the article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR2007121701266.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Is the bathing of one galaxy by another in anti-life good or evil? Is it an act of creation, destruction, or both? It is incomprehensibly obtuse because it is outside of the realm of the human mind and therefore products of the human mind, like the concepts of good and evil, don't apply. The concepts are very limited and are not absolute or ultimate in nature at all. They exist only within human minds. There are no personifications of Good nor are there personifications of Evil.

[fatherofaking]

The fundamental processes of creation are most likely unconcerned with these issues.



What you interpret as lack of concern does not make it so.

[trainedobserver]

What you interpret as lack of concern does not make it so.

Well, I can only speak from a human perspective. It doesn't appear that whatever governs the universe has given much consideration for life as 99.9% (a rough estimation mind you) of the known universe is hostile to it. Only little bits of this planet are known to harbor the conditions that foster life. I've said this before, if you were to gauge the intended function of the universe from what it produces you would assume it is constructed to manufacture black holes and not living organisms. It seems to me if there was a universal love machine pining after the creation of life you'd see a lot more of it in a lot more places. What we got is largely environments that vaporize, freeze, or otherwise destroy elements that make up living things. I think there are natural laws and processes at work that don't have the facility for concern.

Tell me, how concerned are you about the individual bacteria that die in your stomach every day? You need them, you depend on them but you don't give them much thought if any on a collective level and absolutely none on an individual level. I wonder if they'd be devastated to find that out? :) But hey ... its ok ... its alright. We are just as important as individual people as those individual stomach bacteria are and visa versa. Everything in the universe is connected to everything else and as such is as equally important or significant or how every you want to think about it.

[fatherofaking]

Everything in the universe is connected to everything else and as such is as equally important or significant or how every you want to think about it.

I think that was my point.
The fact that everything is completely inseparable says to me that there is a great deal of concern for all things in the universe.
We may not be able to describe that as love from a semantic point of view but it certainly gives us a hint as to how we should behave concerning all life.

I understand this is not proof of anything.
It is an inference based on experience.
I know if i do not show some concern for those bacteria in my stomach they will destroy me.
that may not be love in the loftiest sense of the word but it is on the scale somewhere.

With our puny little brains it is difficult to understand much about love.

[truth_child]

i am back i had a toe reoved because of diabeties, i firmly beleive that GOD SPOKE THE WORLD INTO EXSISTANCE and that HE CREATED MAN (ADAM AND EVE) AND PALCED THEM HERER i believe that GOD gives us the freewill to chose to beleive ON AND IN HIM or not to beleive

[trainedobserver]

i am back i had a toe reoved because of diabeties, i firmly beleive that GOD SPOKE THE WORLD INTO EXSISTANCE and that HE CREATED MAN (ADAM AND EVE) AND PALCED THEM HERER i believe that GOD gives us the freewill to chose to beleive ON AND IN HIM or not to beleive


I'm glad that you are better. Listen, not to be a jerk or anything, but I can't help but wonder, why didn't your god heal your toe? It's a small thing no? A toe? You have great faith do you not? You are a faithful witness here in this heathen forum. You pray, you fast, you study, you give of your treasure, etc., etc., etc.

Why couldn't you pray and get your toe healed?

[truth_child]

trained.. i dont know i will ask GOD when i see HIM by and by, no i do not have great faith, yes i fast maybe not as much as i should but i do fast yes i study GOD WORD THE BIBLE yes i give of what i have to THE LORD for HE gave it all to me anyway ect.ect.ect. and i love HIM i do promise you i will ask HIM when i get to see HIM on that great day but wait i dont know how i will let you know since you want be there

[trainedobserver]

... but wait i dont know how i will let you know since you want be there

Isn't it funny how these 'spiritual giants' find such joy anticipating the 'eternal damnation' of their critics? I just have to shake my head and wonder how some people sleep at night.

[truth_child]

trained... you asked me in a mocking way so i answered you. i can not determine any ones destiny .. except to say if they do not accept JESUS as SAVIOR AND LORD HELL IS their destation. and ni i manot a spiritual giant and no i do not now experaince joy in knowing some one is hell bound i pray for them ( and you ) to be saved each day, and i sleep the pleasanr sleep of the saints OF GOD.
i simply answered your question

[trainedobserver]

trained... you asked me in a mocking way so i answered you. i can not determine any ones destiny .. except to say if they do not accept JESUS as SAVIOR AND LORD HELL IS their destation. and ni i manot a spiritual giant and no i do not now experaince joy in knowing some one is hell bound i pray for them ( and you ) to be saved each day, and i sleep the pleasanr sleep of the saints OF GOD.
i simply answered your question

I wasn't mocking you, it was a honest question. I even prefaced the question with the caution that I was not trying to be jerk. Your behavior doesn't line up with your words.

[jefffranklin]

t.o. that is the utmost of insensitivity you are exhibiting. truth_child has diabetes. It can be a deadly disease for some if not monitored properly. He lost a toe due to having diabetes. That's bad enough. Now you want to beat him over the head with atheist dogma that "if there is a God why did not God heal you?" Very insensitive. Trying to use his health problem as a rude attempt to push your atheist agenda. I've given up asking you to be tolerant of people's beliefs. But how about trying to be more sensitive to people who are having health problems. They are not fair game for your atheist evangelism.

[trainedobserver]

t.o. that is the utmost of insensitivity you are exhibiting. truth_child has diabetes. It can be a deadly disease for some if not monitored properly. He lost a toe due to having diabetes. That's bad enough. Now you want to beat him over the head with atheist dogma that "if there is a God why did not God heal you?" Very insensitive. Trying to use his health problem as a rude attempt to push your atheist agenda. I've given up asking you to be tolerant of people's beliefs. But how about trying to be more sensitive to people who are having health problems. They are not fair game for your atheist evangelism.

You are wrong. Again.

[bluewater2]

In support of TO, I know he must have a soft spot for Truth Child as I do. He has a very simple and endearing way about him. I know that TO feels like I do in that he in no way is glad for the difficulties that TC is enduring at this time. That, however, does not preclude the fact that Truth Child participates in these public forums and speaks of his belief in god's healing powers. It is only natural that, given his current situation, TC would have a unique perspective on these beliefs.

I am curious as well, and no offense is intended.

Truth Child, how do you reconcile your illness with the belief that god has the power to heal and at certain times choses not to do so?

What is the meaning of this peice of scripture?

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

I know people that have lost toes, fingers and more and still get out there and excercise and eat right. Are you doing those things? As someone who cares about you, I hope so.

[trainedobserver]

truth_child,

Have you not in the past expressed your unwavering faith in god to heal the sick and raise the dead or do I have you confused with someone else? Have you not repeatedly told me that even though I spent over 30 years as a Christian believing every word in the Bible that I didn't really "believe" because I've changed my mind about it later? You want to tell me all about a loving and personal god who heals the sick and raises the dead but for some reason you can't get your toe healed and I'm a cynical jerk for asking why? Really now. When are we going to get real in this forum?

I'm very familiar with diabetes, both my parents had it. Mom still does. I know how serious that stuff is. In seeking treatment from a human for your condition you are acknowledging what your inner-most being knows to be true, unless you do, it is going to kill you no matter what the condition of your prayer life, your faith, or your 'spiritual' condition is and may in spite of any help you get.

If god answered prayer and healed people I would have thought you'd have gotten that done based on the faith you've 'demonstrated' or claimed here in this forum. Honestly, who is your rival here in exercising religious faith? It gets back to the startling reality of all faith healers dieing, some of horrible diseases, some from accidents and so forth, but they all get sick and die. All Christians (and all other humans) get sick during their lives and all eventually die. That's a reality that can't be rationalized away.

It all gets back to making unreasonable claims about things, not being able to substantiate them, and compelling others to do the same in the name of religious faith.

I sincerely hope you will continue to see a human physician, take your medication, eat properly, and exercise as best you can. I hope you make a full recovery and suffer no complications from your operation. Although a big toe may seem like a small thing I understand it can be a trying experience to adjust to, I hope you can do so as effortlessly as possible. My best wishes to you and yours.

[fatherofaking]

It all gets back to making unreasonable claims about things, not being able to substantiate them, and compelling others to do the same in the name of religious faith.

I did those things.
I was very good at convincing people because i was thoroughly convinced of the things i was saying.

It is like being hypnotized.
If you believe you are a chicken you will act like one.
This is the power of belief.

Beliefs must be abandoned and replaced by experience.
To many people want to just talk.
They claim to know something yet know very little.
It takes courage to abandon all belief.
It is a leap of faith.
A leap into the void.

[trainedobserver]

Beliefs must be abandoned and replaced by experience.
To many people want to just talk.
They claim to know something yet know very little.
It takes courage to abandon all belief.
It is a leap of faith.
A leap into the void.

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.” Decartes

[trainedobserver]

The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. -Lao Tzu That is Truth.

[truth_child]

to. yes i beleive that JESUS not a god but GOD still heals and delivers today HE can heal the sick and r aise the dead. why HE doent do it now i dont know HE has a purpose for my life
bwater i dont know why GOD doesnt chose to heal me completly but that is HIS WILL AND PURPOSE and yes my body is THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GHOST. but i dont know every thing about GODS WAYS so i will just have to wait. still praying for you blue and for to too

[Day_Light]

Love that King James translation!

Skeptics love the KJV so much, one would think that they were still back in medieval England. Use of this translation is problematic these days, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, which doesn't necessarily mean the same things today as when it was translated over 400 years ago. In addition, the KJV was produced using a limited number of medieval manuscripts that did not represent the earliest Alexandrian set of manuscripts.
What do the modern translations say?




The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html#n02) which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html#n03) the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."

[Day_Light]

Love that King James translation!

Skeptics love the KJV so much, one would think that they were still back in medieval England. Use of this translation is problematic these days, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, which doesn't necessarily mean the same things today as when it was translated over 400 years ago. In addition, the KJV was produced using a limited number of medieval manuscripts that did not represent the earliest Alexandrian set of manuscripts.
What do the modern translations say?




The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html#n02) which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html#n03) the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."

[trainedobserver]

The idea is quite plain. The author's of the Bible have Jehovah claiming to be the author of Creation and Destruction. It makes perfect sense and if such a creator-god creature as Jehovah existed then it would have to be the author of both as it is the creator of all things, including any opposition.

The concepts of Good and Evil are human ones and the universe hardly seems concerned with them. Creation and Destruction happen in a continuous and unprejudiced fashion in the universe as evidenced by the images captured by our telescopes.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

The idea is quite plain. The author's of the Bible have Jehovah claiming to be the author of Creation and Destruction. It makes perfect sense and if such a creator-god creature as Jehovah existed then it would have to be the author of both as it is the creator of all things, including any opposition.

The concepts of Good and Evil are human ones and the universe hardly seems concerned with them. Creation and Destruction happen in a continuous and unprejudiced fashion in the universe as evidenced by the images captured by our telescopes.

That is not quite true, either.The concepts of good & evil are universal.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Love that King James translation!

Skeptics love the KJV so much, one would think that they were still back in medieval England. Use of this translation is problematic these days, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, which doesn't necessarily mean the same things today as when it was translated over 400 years ago. In addition, the KJV was produced using a limited number of medieval manuscripts that did not represent the earliest Alexandrian set of manuscripts.
What do the modern translations say?




The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html#n02) which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html#n03) the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."

I must laugh out loud when reading post such as this. The Bibles you cite as gospel are the least respected of all.

[trainedobserver]

That is not quite true, either.The concepts of good & evil are universal.

No they aren't. It isn't a matter of black and white even for human beings. Are insects evil when they destroy a farmer's crop? Or are the insects just being insects? Do other creatures behave like they have concepts of good and evil? Does nature in the aspect of black holes and deadly radiation do evil? I don't think so. Human beings make value judgments on events and behaviors within a limited context when they declare something good or evil.

In a very human way I see good and evil from a standpoint of what supports life and what doesn't. If something is healthy for human beings then it is good if it is unhealthy then its bad. Even within that there are value judgments to be made. It is better to heal than kill and bless than curse. Beyond that it gets difficult to be dogmatic.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

No they aren't. It isn't a matter of black and white even for human beings. Are insects evil when they destroy a farmer's crop? Or are the insects just being insects? Do other creatures behave like they have concepts of good and evil? Does nature in the aspect of black holes and deadly radiation do evil? I don't think so. Human beings make value judgments on events and behaviors within a limited context when they declare something good or evil.

In a very human way I see good and evil from a standpoint of what supports life and what doesn't. If something is healthy for human beings then it is good if it is unhealthy then its bad. Even within that there are value judgments to be made. It is better to heal than kill and bless than curse. Beyond that it gets difficult to be dogmatic.

My friend, your concept (the one that fits your religion) or univarate may be singular. But the concept of good & evil is universal.

[fatherofaking]

I do not know how anything could be called bad or evil when all experience ultimately is for the purpose of good.
The only reason anything is seen as "evil" is because of a misconception.

If you want to say that all things ultimately work for the good including evil, then you still have to redefine the concept of evil.

[trainedobserver]

My friend, your concept (the one that fits your religion) or univarate may be singular. But the concept of good & evil is universal.

And maybe you just need to broaden your reading list.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

And maybe you just need to broaden your reading list.

What does my reading list have to do with it? Perhaps it is your limited reading that is the problem.

[trainedobserver]

What does my reading list have to do with it? Perhaps it is your limited reading that is the problem.

Oh I don't know. Some philosophy, some comparative religion. The thing is the concepts of good and evil can be proven to be largely human value judgment. There is no absolute embodiment of good nor evil. Things aren't that simple. Even within the Bible good and evil are on a sliding scale. The Bible's god commands that genocide and infanticide be carried out in the OT. It doesn't get much more evil than that. However, I've heard the argument time and again that it was a 'righteous action' a 'good thing' that was done against 'evil' people.

Nature doesn't know good and evil. It just is. Lions kill baby gazelles, Black Holes devour worlds, and disease kills everything without any ethical considerations. Humans place value on life and well-being and call things that promote those "good". All healthy living things withdraw from things that would harm or kill us and we call that business "evil".

It isn't a sky-god's call and never has been.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Oh I don't know. Some philosophy, some comparative religion. The thing is the concepts of good and evil can be proven to be largely human value judgment. There is no absolute embodiment of good nor evil. Things aren't that simple. Even within the Bible good and evil are on a sliding scale. The Bible's god commands that genocide and infanticide be carried out in the OT. It doesn't get much more evil than that. However, I've heard the argument time and again that it was a 'righteous action' a 'good thing' that was done against 'evil' people.

Nature doesn't know good and evil. It just is. Lions kill baby gazelles, Black Holes devour worlds, and disease kills everything without any ethical considerations. Humans place value on life and well-being and call things that promote those "good". All healthy living things withdraw from things that would harm or kill us and we call that business "evil".

It isn't a sky-god's call and never has been.

Would you rather a standing ovation or a strong gut laugh?

[trainedobserver]

Would you rather a standing ovation or a strong gut laugh?

Why don't you just giggle and point?

[dobman53]

Dear Friends: Isaiah 45:7 is one of those verses where it seems a point of contradiction might very well exsist. Often as not such verses as here in Isaiah are vigirously pointed out by some to show the supposed numerous contradictions held within the Bible. Quite obviously the vast majority of Christians seem most perplexed when presented such verses, and for the most part shy away from mentioning these bones of contention.

Situations as these are basically derived from the results of translators who did do their best in translating word for word, but in essance got lost in the translation. When situations arise as such we first need to realize that in the art of translating sometimes words used in mediforic manners do not always translate out as we might suppose.

Lets take a look at how the King James translators wrote out Isaiah 45:7

I FORM THE LIGHT, AND CREATE DARKNESS: I MAKE PEACE, AND CREATE EVIL: I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS.

At first glance this verse seems pretty straight forward, and for the most part nothing out of order seems apparent. Most certainly the vast majority of Christians would all nod their heads in agreement with this translation, there by thinking nothing wrong here as God is absolutely the creator of all things. Yet for those who know of the Holy Spirit they realize that evil can not be in the presence of the Holy Spirit, so it would be quite the feat for the Holy Spirit of God to then create evil knowing it can't be in Gods presence to begin with!

Right here I'm sure I've cracked open more than just a single bone of contention as through out the Bible God seems present on many accounts where evil was present. Though here is where the understandings of the trinity become involved as then otherwise there are most certainly points of contradiction. I'll not try at this point to dive to deeply into the trinity other than to state the Father the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all neccessary ingrediences to form the perfect God.

With the main point in mind of Isaiah 45:7 I feel almost compelled to give an enlightenment to the translations of said verse. Where God said he formed the light this is of course true, and when God said he created the darkness this is true in the forming of night and day. The creation of darkness in this verse should not be misunderstood as if it's in realationship to creating Satans evilness. Though here again this verse does go on further in saying where God makes peace, and did create evil.

Right here I can very well imagine that many an eye brow are rising at this very moment. Here I must ask of you to allow me to sort of iron out these so seemingly obvious contradictions. The wording of evil in this verse requires the rendering to " bring about". With the situations we now face here on earth where man can not even so much as look upon the face of God. Were all at present going through a world age where we must first go through life on a learning curve in order to prove our love for God. There by in hopes to then be reunited once again in the presence of God the Father.

For this reason alone God does allow the bringing about of evil in order to teach us for all times indefinate the reasons for absolute rights from absolute wrongs. There are no gray issues in Gods accounts. By that I'm stating with God there are no what if's, or how about such and such. In Gods dominion no questions go unanswered all things have absolute definitions between right, and wrong.

Concerning evil it's self, this was all of Satans doing where evil rose up from within Satan himself through his desirers and envy of Gods own throne. Satan rebelled before God ever made man in the flesh. God being perfect in all ways would have never desired evil to be in the presence of his own children.

Simply put God is not the creator of evil period!!

DOB!!

[dobman53]

Dear FOAK: I'm here with hat in hand to say I've been on roar for long enough. I've been guilty of using you as a whipping post for far to long. To be honest I'm a bit ashamed of myself for the many times I've gone out of my way to slam you for no other reason than from simply being in disagreement. With that thought in mind I've commited myself to taming that fire within me, not just for your account, but for the betterment of me alone.

DOB!

[fatherofaking]

Dear FOAK: I'm here with hat in hand to say I've been on roar for long enough. I've been guilty of using you as a whipping post for far to long. To be honest I'm a bit ashamed of myself for the many times I've gone out of my way to slam you for no other reason than from simply being in disagreement. With that thought in mind I've commited myself to taming that fire within me, not just for your account, but for the betterment of me alone.

DOB!


Hey Dob.
Thanks for the word.
Apology accepted, forgiveness granted.

[dobman53]

I suppose that these miss-directed thoughts concerning God having created evil are now all thoughts in error from the past!!!

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I suppose that these miss-directed thoughts concerning God having created evil are now all thoughts in error from the past!!!

DOB!

Actually God did create evil. God created all things. Of necessity, all things include evil. Without evil, how would one recognize good?

[oneway]

Actually God did create evil. God created all things. Of necessity, all things include evil. Without evil, how would one recognize good?



TATM, what do you make of satan? Did God create him this way, or did he become this way on his own? What do you make of Ezekiel 28? Is this double fullfillment concerning the king of Tyrus? Such as in, an earthly king, and the spirit creature behind the earthly king, satan himself?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM, what do you make of satan? Did God create him this way, or did he become this way on his own? What do you make of Ezekiel 28? Is this double fullfillment concerning the king of Tyrus? Such as in, an earthly king, and the spirit creature behind the earthly king, satan himself?

Much of Ezekiel 28 is allegory. It may well have a hiden meaning that none of us have found. Yes, God did create Sataan. Did God make Sataan evil or did Sataan act on his own? God is sovereign, not Sataan. God is omniscient. If God knew everything before the foundation of the earth was laid, do you think he knew evil would exist? And if so, can we not say God had a part to play in creating evil? God could have stopped it before it started, he is sovereign right? The question is not did God create eveil but rather why does he let it exist?

[oneway]

The question is not did
God create eveil but rather why does he let it exist?


My answer to that would be because without evil, there would be no way to know what good really was. If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much how you see it too?

Even with this in mind, and using Genesis 3, John 8:44, among others, the text seems to suggest that satan acted according to his will and not God's. The Bible tells us that only those that do the will of the Father shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. So if satan was created to be evil, and is doing the Father's will, that being that is he is being evil just as God willed for him, then why is he being punished, but not inheriting the kingdom of heaven? I'm only trying to make a point here. Hopefully you won't read more into it than what it is.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

My answer to that would be because without evil, there would be no way to know what good really was. If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much how you see it too?

Even with this in mind, and using Genesis 3, John 8:44, among others, the text seems to suggest that satan acted according to his will and not God's. The Bible tells us that only those that do the will of the Father shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. So if satan was created to be evil, and is doing the Father's will, that being that is he is being evil just as God willed for him, then why is he being punished, but not inheriting the kingdom of heaven? I'm only trying to make a point here. Hopefully you won't read more into it than what it is.

Actually, Sataan is in heaven right now. I have not taken it through to conclusion, but I lean away from Sataan as being evil. I think it is us who does the evil, not Sataan. But like I said, I have not carry my thoughts to final conclusion. As to the verses you point to, I can point to just as many or more that show God as sovereign. Pharaoh, for example, did he harden his heart or did God harden his heart?

[oneway]

Actually, Sataan is in heaven right now


I would have to say that I pretty much agree with you, but my point was related to the end results, and not just the present as we see it.


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I don't believe this has literally come to pass as of yet, so this is one reason that I agree he is still in heaven.


Plus, when we turn to the book of Job, we see satan presenting himself before God. This was obviously post flood, since we know that Job lived after the flood.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

I would have to say that I pretty much agree with you, but my point was related to the end results, and not just the present as we see it.


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I don't believe this has literally come to pass as of yet, so this is one reason that I agree he is still in heaven.


Plus, when we turn to the book of Job, we see satan presenting himself before God. This was obviously post flood, since we know that Job lived after the flood.

Sataan is the accuser.

[dobman53]

TATM: Do we need to put our children to death in order for them to recognize death? Do we need to place our childrens hands in fire in order for them to recognize heat?

No No No one thousand times No. God never once created Evil.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

TATM: Satan created evil not God!!

Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God.

TATM: In Satans lust for worship he was found with iniquity in his heart, and it is in Satan alone where all evil did certainly come.

TATM: Don't commit the sins of Job. You might say sins of Job!! What??

Thats right the sins of Job!! Job while not getting angry with God about all that befell him, Job finally did come to terms where all his misery was to then be blamed upon Satan alone. Once Job fully realized this fact and acknowledged it as so, all his wealths was then returned.

You should do the same in acknowledging that Satan was indeed the creator of all evil. To say other wise shows your lack of understandings of Gods purpose. That being a purpose to never harm thoughs whom God does love.

DOB!

[dobman53]

Oneway: Don't be fooled, you know in your heart God never created Evil. I sometimes act out all cute, and talk like a smart allic in my takes about certain things. But other things are far to serious to kid about. This is one of thoughs things!!!

TATM your fooling only yourself in acting up in such a fashion.

Is it really in your hearts where your zeal to see me belittled takes presidence in your hearts above that for the love for God?? To now say God is the root to all evil is not to wise a statement, how ever it might be said or agreed upon.

TATM you stated a question of concerns about God being aware of evil from the foundations of this world. I know the discust in your heart concerning the first world age, but such knowledge does exsist should you seek to find it. Once you've come to grips with such things all thoughs unanswered question seem to disappear. it's then when you'll know the whole truth about all such things. Never again would you dare say God created evil. NO never!!!

DOB

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: Do we need to put our children to death in order for them to recognize death? Do we need to place our childrens hands in fire in order for them to recognize heat?

No No No one thousand times No. God never once created Evil.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

TATM: Satan created evil not God!!

Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God.

TATM: In Satans lust for worship he was found with iniquity in his heart, and it is in Satan alone where all evil did certainly come.

TATM: Don't commit the sins of Job. You might say sins of Job!! What??

Thats right the sins of Job!! Job while not getting angry with God about all that befell him, Job finally did come to terms where all his misery was to then be blamed upon Satan alone. Once Job fully realized this fact and acknowledged it as so, all his wealths was then returned.

You should do the same in acknowledging that Satan was indeed the creator of all evil. To say other wise shows your lack of understandings of Gods purpose. That being a purpose to never harm thoughs whom God does love.

DOB!

Job's trouble were the direct result of a wager between God and Sataan. Job did not sin, sorry.

[jargon631]

Job's trouble were the direct result of a wager between God and Sataan. Job did not sin, sorry.


in fact, wasnt job picked because of his virtuosness?...his lack of sin?...wasnt that the whole point of the wager?...that job would curse god?...fd

[dobman53]

The facts of Job are thought by most to be well known. In reguards to the above statements each one is perfectly correct. Yes Job was the apple of Gods eye, and God did put a lot of faith in Job's abilities which were well placed come to find out.

Through for thoughs who might not have studied Job as closely as they might have liked to, towards the end of the book of Job, God does bring up this point concerning how Job never mentioned to his friends that it was the Devil who brought about all his anguish, and left it in his friends minds that God was the punisher. After Job's acknowledgement of such God then foregave Job and replaced his wealth.

DOB!

[oneway]

Oneway: Don't be fooled, you know in your heart God never created Evil. I sometimes act out all cute, and talk like a smart
allic in my takes about certain things. But other things are far to serious to kid about. This is one of thoughs things!!!


dobman53, you're probaby right. What I basically believe is that satan went bad of his own free-will. I don't believe God made satan this way from the beginning. If anyone thinks that, I would like to see them square it with Scriptures, which I'm pretty confident one can't do.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

in fact, wasnt job picked because of his virtuosness?...his lack of sin?...wasnt that the whole point of the wager?...that job would curse god?...fd

In fact, it was that weal same thing. Unfortunately, some folks need Job to sin in order to explain their lunacies.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

The facts of Job are thought by most to be well known. In reguards to the above statements each one is perfectly correct. Yes Job was the apple of Gods eye, and God did put a lot of faith in Job's abilities which were well placed come to find out.

Through for thoughs who might not have studied Job as closely as they might have liked to, towards the end of the book of Job, God does bring up this point concerning how Job never mentioned to his friends that it was the Devil who brought about all his anguish, and left it in his friends minds that God was the punisher. After Job's acknowledgement of such God then foregave Job and replaced his wealth.

DOB!

So much for wishful thinking. God lied again.

[fatherofaking]

From the Christian perspective you have to accept the fact that God knew that evil was going to be part of his creation.
That leaves God responsible for the creation of evil.

[oneway]

After Job's acknowledgement of such God then
foregave Job and replaced his wealth.
DOB!


Why did God need to forgive Job? Job did nothing wrong did he? Where do you get this idea from? Bullinger's commentaries perhaps?

[truth_child]

probally from bullingers note or from murray
job was tested to prove that he would stand for GOD

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

From the Christian perspective you have to accept the fact that God knew that evil was going to be part of his creation.
That leaves God responsible for the creation of evil.

I believe I said that previously. God is certainly sovereign.

[dobman53]

FOAK: God says he had a plan for each and everyone of us. In thoughs plans God never once hoped for evil to befall upon any of us. In as much as each of us are his creations his plans were of only the best intensions.

Lets take for instance you and me we each have a son did either of us ever devise plans where our sons would be trapped in misery to suffer immeasurable pain in their lives?? NOPE!!! certainly not!!

Now here again this mentioning of God being the creator of all things, and of God knowing the future to come. This is certainly so, but only to a certain exstent. Gods knowing the future is far beyond our abilities to comprehind, but there similar to our abilities as where we might see a young person drinking to much, to then conclude such a life style might lead him to misery.

This 2nd world age is us living an exsistance without seeing the face of God. Us just saying in the past that we loved him is now to be backed up with us choosing to love him.

Satan sin's from the first world age has lead to this condition we all must go through here in the present. God has allowed Satan and all his evil to tempt the hearts of those whom God has allways loved. In those who show God once and for all that they do truly love him, God shall wipe away every tear and once again seat himself before his ancients in glory forever and ever.

Then death and evil will for all times be cast in the lake of fire, as well as the lake of fire shall be no more. Then there upon the mountain of God before his very throne we shall be given all things. Then and only then my friends will we never want for a single thing.

Each shall be adorned in the finest clothing as all will be the most delight for each to then enjoy with God forever. These are Gods plans for us, as God could never devise any plans where we would be forever in evil. No my friends God never once created evil as such were never ever in his plans.

I would only ask?? What good is there for any to enjoy in going out of your way in propposing such evil being solely in Gods domain. For the life of me I can't fathom any good by such thoughts.

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

FOAK: God says he had a plan for each and everyone of us. In thoughs plans God never once hoped for evil to befall upon any of us. In as much as each of us are his creations his plans were of only the best intensions.

Lets take for instance you and me we each have a son did either of us ever devise plans where our sons would be trapped in misery to suffer immeasurable pain in their lives?? NOPE!!! certainly not!!

Now here again this mentioning of God being the creator of all things, and of God knowing the future to come. This is certainly so, but only to a certain exstent. Gods knowing the future is far beyond our abilities to comprehind, but there similar to our abilities as where we might see a young person drinking to much, to then conclude such a life style might lead him to misery.

This 2nd world age is us living an exsistance without seeing the face of God. Us just saying in the past that we loved him is now to be backed up with us choosing to love him.

Satan sin's from the first world age has lead to this condition we all must go through here in the present. God has allowed Satan and all his evil to tempt the hearts of those whom God has allways loved. In those who show God once and for all that they do truly love him, God shall wipe away every tear and once again seat himself before his ancients in glory forever and ever.

Then death and evil will for all times be cast in the lake of fire, as well as the lake of fire shall be no more. Then there upon the mountain of God before his very throne we shall be given all things. Then and only then my friends will we never want for a single thing.

Each shall be adorned in the finest clothing as all will be the most delight for each to then enjoy with God forever. These are Gods plans for us, as God could never devise any plans where we would be forever in evil. No my friends God never once created evil as such were never ever in his plans.

I would only ask?? What good is there for any to enjoy in going out of your way in propposing such evil being solely in Gods domain. For the life of me I can't fathom any good by such thoughts.

DOB!

Do you know the meaning of omniscient? Are you saying God is flawed?

[dobman53]

TATM: You Know how you sometimes like to refure to some when mentioning your Straw Man??

I have something of like nature in mind, though mine is to reply!! Quit reaching for straws when you address thoughs who know of things you've never before addressed!! As with the drawing of straws you seem destined to constantly drawing the shortest one.

DOB!

[dobman53]

TATM: Omniscient's definition does not include within it death and evil.

Care to draw another straw??

DOB!

[dobman53]

TATM: I don't mean to come down on you as so.

Let me mention the high lighted point you chose from my earlier post, about God seeing the future.

Lets picture if for no other reason than an aid in description God having a crystal ball to gaze into and see the exact future. Now before going any further I wanted to make mention that we were created for one reason alone, and that was for the pleasure of God. I also wanted to mention God does have a plan for each of us.

Here let me say Gods plans for us are similar in how we might plan for our childrens future. Though here we as parents don't plan every move they make or every breath they take. If you think about it just exactly what pleasure whould God recieve if he preplaned every move we made, every word we said, I mean everything. He would then have no need for a crystal ball as everything had already happened if not for all just in his mind. Picture if you would a bird building it's nest. Would you prefure that you had a remote controlled bird where you directed it's every move or would you rather watch mother nature in action as the bird built it's own nest?? It wouldn't take long before you might grow tired of moving around every living thing, and as for enjoyment foreget it!!!

If you think about it for a moment God only foretells the future when his people have committed sins. It's then when God Makes the future to happen as he spoke it to be. He does'nt look into some crystal ball and annouce ah ha!! this is whats going to happen!! No he makes it happen exactly how ever he wishes, period!!

Now God does have his intuition's that far surpass anything we could ever imagine, but here again he has no crystal ball. Gods pleasure is derived by watching his children choose for themselves his will. We were made to be free in spirit, where in essance Gods enjoyment is like ours in watching that bird build it's nest. The same thing goes where God would tire of remote controlled birds if such things were so.

God knows well in advance the enjoyments instore for those who love him, such things as these are beyond question. In saying as much yes God does know the future, for he is going to make it so.

DOB!

[truth_child]

there is NO flaws IN GOD

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: I don't mean to come down on you as so.

Let me mention the high lighted point you chose from my earlier post, about God seeing the future.


DOB!

Are you saying the god you worship is not omniscient? Did the Bible lie when it says God knows us from the womb? or Perhaps, you are saying god is too stupid to know his *** from a hole in the ground? Could you clarify?

[dobman53]

Holy mackerel!! Where in the heck do your minds come up with such piles???

I guess when you know so little your forced to lash out in any direction your head might be pointed?

The clarification lies in reality, a place you've avoided at all costs. Then you turn around and trip over your own shadow for no other reason than it's simply there.

TATM: Are you saying God has a crystal ball. That God see's the future, but he does'nt make it happen! It just happens??? Well blow me down TATM cause your the real blow job. A massive blast of hot air that never seems to end. I can well imagine the holiness you must feel within you as all your presentations do self high light your holy presence. Amen!!

Please do clarify all your brilliance won't you please, as no one can spin like the pro you are. Spin for us please!! Just one more time, you know just for old times sake.

I know what!! Teach us all about the rapture, you know that doctrine they came up with here not so long ago. Your favorites the Penticoste they love to fly, you and they share so much in common don't you know. Again please tell us more? Teach me how to flap my arms and fly up up into the clouds. I can hardly wait!!! Me of all people flapping my arms untill hell would'nt have it. Flying like a crazed fool beating myself half to death flapping those arms of mine. Beautiful!!!

Before I go TATM where did you get your pilots licence, as I might like to go there and get mine. Oh how long does it take before you can so-low, and were you nervous your first time.

DOB!

[dobman53]

These are each of your own comments!!!

TATM questions: Are you saying the God (YOU!!) worship is not omniscent???

Dobs answer's: You better believe he's omniscent, But he has no need of a crystal ball to tell the future. You see the God I worship is so powerfull he makes the future, he has no need to take a peek and see how things turned out. He makes them come to pass how ever he chooses. These self professed holy men as TATM just can't seem to ever come to grips with things they know nothing about. Instead they'll condem thoughs who know more than them thinking such actions shall preserve their holy stature.

Truth Child says: There is no flaws in God.

Dob replys: Are you saved? remember you should stick to subjects you have firmly under your belt. otherwise you'll get all upset again. Just take it easy for a little while. Hey I've got an idea, and I'm sure it will cure all that ails you!! Why don't you go ahead and speak a little tongue this afternoon. Then thoughs tongues will prove beyond a Penticostal's shadow of a dought your positively saved. Amen??

TATM, Arron: Here's something for each of you I'm not the least bit proud of myself in coming down on either of you. You know something else I honestly like the both of you. It is a shame we get so carried away at times, but I guess we could chalk it up to the facts where we each find faults with one anothers beliefs. My only gripe in actuality rest in the knowings of where my faith is held, to then be condemed for such. In this being my case I do in return strike back. As such you do like wise return the gesture.

I'm sure God is most pleased with the all of us!!! ~~~NOT~~~

DOB!

[dobman53]

TATM: you said God knew us from the womb. Chalk that up to the first world age.

As the battles continue.

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: Omniscient's definition does not include within it death and evil.

Care to draw another straw??

DOB!

Then God or your god is not omniscient. His knowledge is finite.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: you said God knew us from the womb. Chalk that up to the first world age.

As the battles continue.

DOB!

There is no "first world age." That is simply a hypothesis invented by those who believe the "Gap Theory."

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Dobs answer's: You better believe he's omniscent, But he has no need of a crystal ball to tell the future. You see the God I worship is so powerfull he makes the future, he has no need to take a peek and see how things turned out. He makes them come to pass how ever he chooses. These self professed holy men as TATM just can't seem to ever come to grips with things they know nothing about. Instead they'll condem thoughs who know more than them thinking such actions shall preserve their holy stature.


TATM: Omniscient's definition does not include within it death and evil.



Flip-flops or crocs?

[dobman53]

TATM: The first world age is impossible to denigh. Even using your misguided intelligence one must admit something had to be before the replenishing of earth.

When thoughs as yourself choose to devoid themselves from all words in the Bible. What wisdom do any attain by only choosing to use a lowly handfull of verses to then anounce all their holiness.

Then to top that you picture yourself as the all seeing all knowing saint???

I think your walking around half crocked knowing full and well your buckets gotta hole in it! The stinch alone has risen to high heaven, yet you sling that bucket around like you had good sence??

What kind of life is it that some choose to live? I can't begin to imagine such a fools exsistance no matter how hard I might try. The thought of pure ignorance has no appeal to me what so ever.

DOB!

[dobman53]

Thoughs who say nothing exsisted before them are one day to be in for a rood awakening. Their so full of themselves they can hardly stand any and all others. Of course they seem to think their so holy, mind you!! Their rewards will be small, and they'll undoughtably cry like infant babies, but what else is new??

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Come, Mr. Dobman53, flip-flops or crocs?

[dobman53]

TATM: Here lately it appears your only responces are totally limited to one lonely line of a senceless zinger. Is this now the complete total essance of your stated self righteousness. Where were left with nothing but to self vision your brilliance. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but for the most part were left in the dark??

If any are in visions of flip-flops it's most certainly of you dancing around every issue with nothing to offer but ridiculous zingers that here again leave all in total darkness.

Perhaps you might concider boning-up on your own personal studies, instead of mimicking like a parrot about long past misconceptions in dealings of the Bible. As it's obvious when those as yourself try to tie together a to long concept invariably everything falls apart right before your very eye's.

Yet you'll imediately jump up when such things become apparent, and call all in opposition unchristian. The hole while having a dripping bildge bucket in your hand saying you don't smell a thing.

Right on, Right on!!

DOB!

P.S. where's all the he he he he's gone to anyways?? As back then you used to have at least two line's to your posts. Then again like all the he he he's all your posts get pretty repetitive after a while, and mostly void of any intellect if I do say so myself, and quite rightly I do say so.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: Here lately it appears your only responces are totally limited to one lonely line of a senceless zinger. Is this now the complete total essance of your stated self righteousness. Where were left with nothing but to self vision your brilliance. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but for the most part were left in the dark??

If any are in visions of flip-flops it's most certainly of you dancing around every issue with nothing to offer but ridiculous zingers that here again leave all in total darkness.

Perhaps you might concider boning-up on your own personal studies, instead of mimicking like a parrot about long past misconceptions in dealings of the Bible. As it's obvious when those as yourself try to tie together a to long concept invariably everything falls apart right before your very eye's.

Yet you'll imediately jump up when such things become apparent, and call all in opposition unchristian. The hole while having a dripping bildge bucket in your hand saying you don't smell a thing.

Right on, Right on!!

DOB!

P.S. where's all the he he he he's gone to anyways?? As back then you used to have at least two line's to your posts. Then again like all the he he he's all your posts get pretty repetitive after a while, and mostly void of any intellect if I do say so myself, and quite rightly I do say so.

Post #122 TATM: Omniscient's definition does not include within it death and evil.

Post #127 Dobs answer's: You better believe he's omniscent, But he has no need of a crystal ball to tell the future. You see the God I worship is so powerfull he makes the future, he has no need to take a peek and see how things turned out. He makes them come to pass how ever he chooses. These self professed holy men as TATM just can't seem to ever come to grips with things they know nothing about. Instead they'll condem thoughs who know more than them thinking such actions shall preserve their holy stature.

As the old saying goes, you were caught again in a flip-flop trying to sell a croc. hehehehehe

[truth_child]

amen GOD IS OMNISECNT AND HE DOESNT NEED any one or anything to tell HIM what the furture hold for HE HOLDS IT ALL IN HIS HANDS

[dobman53]

TATM: for the life of me I see no correlation in vertually anything you say here lately??

It appears your so pumped up with your ownself anything and everybody are nothing more than actors and props for your worldly stage, provided to you solely by God himself.

Don't worry!! cause once your rear touches the flames you'll snap out of it!!! You'll then once and for all realise you were just having a bad dream where you actually thought you were GOD!!!

Praise the Lord!! Amen.

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: for the life of me I see no correlation in vertually anything you say here lately??

It appears your so pumped up with your ownself anything and everybody are nothing more than actors and props for your worldly stage, provided to you solely by God himself.

Don't worry!! cause once your rear touches the flames you'll snap out of it!!! You'll then once and for all realise you were just having a bad dream where you actually thought you were GOD!!!

Praise the Lord!! Amen.

DOB!

That is alright, Mr. Dobman53, the important thing is the rest of the world saw your waffle. Now they can see your refusal to admit it.

[truth_child]

when the bbile says GOD CREATED evil it simply means that because GOD IS GOOD it showed up evil for what it is

[dobman53]

TATM: With such blinded eye's only you can imagine waffles.

You insist you know everything, and if you've imagined God has a crystal ball it just has to be so? For the great master TATM has written it, so let it be done.

I've done my best in trying to explain where God makes the future to happen. Yet you wish to remain in the wallow of your own delusions. Picturing yourself as the master of all reality.

With you never seeming to study much I feel I should tell you about where there once was this evil king in Isreal who locked the doors shut of the temple. He defeated this one kingdom, and then proceeded to bring back with him one of their religeous practices. That being the sacraficing of their own children.

God then said he never ever even imagined of such a thought!!! Hmmmmm?

TATM I guess with that little tid bit of knowledge your now saying God's a liar?? Cause the all seeing all knowing TATM says God's got a crystal ball and he already new about such practices!! Hmmmm? Thats not what God say's!!!

Well I'll be darned TATM says Gods a liar!!! Cause if you listen to him well by-golly he knows everything.

TATM stop slinging that bucket of filth around would you please. You've slung bildge for far to long, and the stinch in your breath is not very becoming of you.

Fight truth decay would you!! and clean up that mouth of yours while your at it. As were not the least bit impressed.

Hey maybe I'm wrong about God creating evil?? After all he did create you!!!

Oh by the way!! this ones just for you.

He he he he he he!!

DOB!

PS. One day your going to thank me for slapping thoughs blinders off your face.

[jargon631]

when the bbile says GOD CREATED evil it simply means that because GOD IS GOOD it showed up evil for what it is


if everything is gods creation, then it is only logical that he created evil...the snake eats its own tail...fd

[trainedobserver]

The name of the thread is God created EVIL, he says so ... and I can prove it. Yet my quick review of the contents of the thread shows no one actually posted the scripture where this openly stated. In Isaiah 45:7 the God of the Bible says the following:

(Isaiah 45:7 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_45.htm#7%C2%A0), KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Another supporting scripture is:
(Amos 3:6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Amos/Amos_3.htm#6%C2%A0)) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

As a Christian I never had any problem admitting to myself or anyone else what the Bible said. Quite plainly the God of the Bible claims to have created everything including good and evil and cops to doing both at various times.

As an atheist I understand the Bible to be a product of men and the God within a fictional character. Of course the God of the Bible didn't create anything despite the book's claims. But I think it's a bit of intellectual dishonesty to argue that the Bible doesn't teach this when it clearly does, don't you? What is wrong with admitting what is clearly stated in the text?

[dobman53]

Trainedobserver: Beings you are an athiest it's obvious you know little of context. Many get confused by the readings of one verse here and one verse their. Should ever the day come where you might see through such confusion perhaps you might turn yourself around.

Let me ease your mind in saying I won't be holding my breath.

If I was even to dare attempt to spell out for you the conjectures from which you quoted you wouldn't believe it, just as the rest of these holy men would do like wise.

Their goals reside within their own minds, which in turn are hollowed grounds as far as their concerned. So in blindness they do walk thinking a couple of scriptures have instantly transformed them into saints. I do honestly wish for their sakes it was just that simple, but when your mind has long sence been made up there's not a whole lot one can do.

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: With such blinded eye's only you can imagine waffles.

DOB!

PS. One day your going to thank me for slapping thoughs blinders off your face.

Mr. Dobman53, I have never claimed to be anything. Mr. Watchman2 and yourself hold that honor. The only claim I made/make is the fact you waffled.

Post #122 TATM: Omniscient's definition does not include within it death and evil.


Post #127 Dobs answer's: You better believe he's omniscent, But he has no need of a crystal ball to tell the future. You see the God I worship is so powerfull he makes the future, he has no need to take a peek and see how things turned out. He makes them come to pass how ever he chooses. These self professed holy men as TATM just can't seem to ever come to grips with things they know nothing about. Instead they'll condem thoughs who know more than them thinking such actions shall preserve their holy stature.

[truth_child]

to the one who wrote about GOD CREATING EVIL well it means that by HIS BEING ALL POWEREFULL ALL GOOD it showed up evil like whn light is in a plav=ce then darkness is shown what it is in this sense GOD DID create evil

[trainedobserver]

Beings you are an athiest it's obvious you know little of context.

You didn't read my posting very closely did you? Or do you just feel compelled to act as though you didn't? Your transparent disingenuous posting doesn't address the issue in the slightest.

[jargon631]

to the one who wrote about GOD CREATING EVIL well it means that by HIS BEING ALL POWEREFULL ALL GOOD it showed up evil like whn light is in a plav=ce then darkness is shown what it is in this sense GOD DID create evil


if the earth was without form or void then there was nothing...no good or evil...if god created all that exists, then wouldnt he,by definition, have created evil...im not saying that god IS evil...just that he, as master of creation, would have been the ONLY one with the ability...fd

[dobman53]

TATM: You live in a world of your own, and in such a world you are omniscient.

If you spent a fraction of the amount of time studing the Bible as you have investigating the history of Penticostalism. You'd be a walking talking Biblical Saint.

But beings you haven't your so mixed up in a gibberish batch of foolishnessism. You could write the book on that topic in doing a self written biography. Only problem is no one would have any interest in buying it. Thusly you stand alone in the halls of your own foolish making.

Jargon631: If you were to do an indepth study of the Bible, you would find Evil came to be in the first world age. It was then when God destroyed the earth then set about with this second world age. Were all going through this second world age in order to show our love for God, as from before just saying we loved him was no longer good enough.

I've covered a lot of ground in one or two sentences so I can well imagine your thinking WHAT!! as I'm sure this is all new to you. But trust me as I to was once in the same boat, but through much study I've come to know it's as so. I've been studing like no bodies business for over 20 years on these very subjects, this does not take into account the previous years from before that.

Arron: You will never understand that Evil was not Gods creation, it was Satans making, Why is it that Satan is spoken of as the father of the Lie. I guess now you'll all be saying God was the father of the lie beings he created it. Can any of you ever understand the foolishness of you mindless projections. I'm beginning to think your all a bunch of evil imposters standing as followers of Christ. Be dam all of you.

DOB!

DOB!

[truth_child]

to the one who just wrote to me i know GOD DID NOT CREATE satan HE created lucifer who became satan who is the father of a lie and the priginator of all evil if you will READ what i posted i said GOD in being GOOD AND ALL POWERFUL SHOWED UP BY HIS BEING GOOD what evil was in that sense HE created or made it to appear, not that HE DESIERED TO DO SO but satan rebelled and it just came to pass
and the last few words you use let me know that you are not right with GOD or you would not use such lanquage, and you can say all you want about us beleiveng that GOD WAS THE FATHER of the lie beings HE created, that is a flat out lie and you know it
and i dont beleive that eve and adam had sex with the snake either nor that GOD RIDES IN A UFO

[dobman53]

Arron: Granted I blew a fuse!! But you as well as all are going to have to recognize the flaws from which your conclusions are drawn. Any such speach of me being this, or me being that, is all pie in the sky.

It's similar to that of where I've spoken of pack mentality!! I'm as the prey, and you along with the others are the hounds. But in that situation I have no fear as I can out fox any hound be he what ever.

Arron your base upon which you stand in representing God as the creator of evil would in turn show the same result where I said of your notions being that God is the father of the lie. When you take a notion to it's extreme you wind up with the same results. Thusly I say your confounded in pack mentality where individualy none of you would take it upon yourselves to say half the things you do, but put you all together and you've witnessed the results.

Arron you have a habit of repeating a lot of the same tired old remarks in concerns of Biblical truths. Tell me do you honestly think that I just simply parrot the words of Pastor Murray. By that I'm saying do you think I've never investigated the things of which I speak.

My friend over 20 years ago I became aware of Pastor Murray. I started watching his program for basically one reason alone. That being the teachings of verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book. I was hungry for more in depth teachings as basically with all the other programs they might mention 1 or 2 verses then sing a couple songs then spend the next 45 minutes begging for money. Now Arron you know what I'm saying is true vertually all Biblical programs spend 90% of their time begging for money. Get aload of this back in the 70's your old buddy used to send virtually all of them $100 bucks a month. Back then I had more money than sense.

What I'm trying to point out is I was serious about my commitments towards God. I very well knew all about salvation, as I very well knew all the implications surrounding the death and resurrection of Christ. But Arron I craved to know more as I was no longer satisfied with just the same old routine of praise God for 2 or 3 minutes then have it to be where send me some money was all that there was for the rest of the hour!

What I'm getting at Arron is I didn't just have some all of a sudden transformation. NO NO NO!!! Arron I fought it tooth and nail for several years thinking perhaps similar to how you do now. First world age this and Adam and Eve that you know what I mean??

Though let me add this as it's most important before coming to know any of that I had problems with concerns about a whole lot of other issues besides thoughs of which I previously mentioned. Cramming the entire world population into 500 years time was right there at the top along with a host of other issues to boot.

Arron in my earlier years of study I was probably devoting 25 hours a week into Biblical studies. Now granted thats a lot of time, and I can well imagine some might be suspicious of such a statement, but sure as I'm here typing it's the Gods honest truth. This went on for over 10 years or better, I probably on average devote 5 plus hours a week even to this day. By me saying as such I'm not out to seek yours or anybody elses admiration I only did what I did for one reason and one reason alone ME!!!

Arron listen to me here, I checked all this stuff out for myself and for the soul reasoning of a personal commitment in wishing to learn as much as I could. I didn't do it so I could one day appear on these treads so all could be in amazement. Think about that for a moment!! Would you post on a thread as this one if you were the type who seeks the admiration of others. If I were looking for such admiration I could go post on the Fig tree and represent myself as a shining star.

Yet here I find myself up against a mob of hounds biting at my heels at every opportunity. When your each alone you fight like dogs amongst yourselves, but toss me into the frey and the pack quickly forms. Then the hounds begin to bey as the hairs on their backs rise in antisipation, in that moment their eye's all turn red as the desires of persuit have them all half out of their minds.

So Arron should I blow a fuse upon occassion, I can only advise for all to stand clear cause Dob's coming through, and he's got fire in his eye's. With that cat of nine tails in my hand I'm on the ready to take it to all those hounds hides.

Yours Truley!!

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Like I said, Mr. Dobman53, you keep waffling all over Dodge City.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

if the earth was without form or void then there was nothing...no good or evil...if god created all that exists, then wouldnt he,by definition, have created evil...im not saying that god IS evil...just that he, as master of creation, would have been the ONLY one with the ability...fd

God created ALL things, including evil.

[truth_child]

to the one who siad they blew a fuse
one no im not a hound that is hounding them and im not a fox either im a christian that has been saved by THE BLOOD OF JESUS and as far as the rest they said.. i dont beleive in murray period.

[dobman53]

TATM: When your so obviously whooped, and all that your little mind can concieve is layed at your feet. You twist and turn in delusions where no man has yet traveled. This is where you stand alone in all your glorious attire, there by thinking I'm am so wonderfull.

Arron: You don't believe in any Biblical truths. You wish to please your minister as he is your only salvation. Go ahead and speak in your evil tongues, showing your congregation just how holy you really are. As I'm sure their all so impressed knowing your so holy.

Both yours and TATM's fuses were blown decades ago. Sad thing is those fuses where never replaced, such are the reason your minds have sense been total blanks.

From such foolish logic is where each of your blank minds have concieve such crazed ideas. As I've said earlier from your crazed view points God must be the father of the lie as well. Remember your all on board with having God being such a creator where he creates anything and everything.

I told you about when the Jewish people took it upon themselves to sacraficing their own children, and where God said such thoughts had never came to his mind. Did you catch that Never came to his Mind part??? I suppose next your all going to insist God created child sacrafise so there being the fact that God did created it , it must be good?? You know, so to teach us how to wisely kill kids RIGHT!!! Ya!! thats it, lets get down to some serious sacraficing will show though Pagens once and for all who's boss!!

If you fools had it your way, why we would all be some Evil Child Sacraficing Liers, knowing it's all good because God created it, so it just has to be holy???

After reading this I know without any reservations that you'll instantly jump to your feet, and proudly announce to the entire world how holy and well versed you are concerning any and all Biblical understandings. While believing that living forever in a magical kingdom is your highest of all desirers, thinking then that God just might someday be as wise as you.

Dream on, as dreams are the foundation stones where upon all your beliefs are based.

Sweet dreams my friends!!!

As such dreams will be your only rewards!!

DOB!

PS. Arron for thoughs who have never heard it before could you tell us all once more how you got saved and dove into that tub full of hogs blood. You remember!! it was when you were on that sunday school field trip to visit the slaughter house, to learn where fresh meat came from remember?? It's so cute when you tell us how you came up from that tub of blood saying look everybody I'm saved.

[jargon631]

TATM: You live in a world of your own, and in such a world you are omniscient.

If you spent a fraction of the amount of time studing the Bible as you have investigating the history of Penticostalism. You'd be a walking talking Biblical Saint.

But beings you haven't your so mixed up in a gibberish batch of foolishnessism. You could write the book on that topic in doing a self written biography. Only problem is no one would have any interest in buying it. Thusly you stand alone in the halls of your own foolish making.

Jargon631: If you were to do an indepth study of the Bible, you would find Evil came to be in the first world age. It was then when God destroyed the earth then set about with this second world age. Were all going through this second world age in order to show our love for God, as from before just saying we loved him was no longer good enough.

I've covered a lot of ground in one or two sentences so I can well imagine your thinking WHAT!! as I'm sure this is all new to you. But trust me as I to was once in the same boat, but through much study I've come to know it's as so. I've been studing like no bodies business for over 20 years on these very subjects, this does not take into account the previous years from before that.

Arron: You will never understand that Evil was not Gods creation, it was Satans making, Why is it that Satan is spoken of as the father of the Lie. I guess now you'll all be saying God was the father of the lie beings he created it. Can any of you ever understand the foolishness of you mindless projections. I'm beginning to think your all a bunch of evil imposters standing as followers of Christ. Be dam all of you.

DOB!

DOB!


actually, i have heard that before...i just dont believe it...fd

[trainedobserver]

It seems like you're trying to have it both ways. God is perfect and knows everything but he did not take into account Evil coming into being and had to resort to a Plan B.

[truth_child]

to the one who wrote the blasphemous lie saying how i got saved. i do pay they havent crossed the line and gone to far to be saved
heres how i got saved i went to church , i got under conviction of my sins i went to the altar i repneted of my sins , i beleived ON AND IN JESUS and i was saved right then and there BELEIVING IN AND ON JESUS AND ACEPTING HIM as my SAVIOR
ive never been to a slaughter hous never wash or fell in a pool or tub of blood so that is a lie right there they told.. i never went on a field trip for sunday school so that is another lie.. i cant stand to be around where fresh meat is beings handled i cant stand the smell and blood make me pass out when i see it. so tat is another lie looks like they just have lied about every thing now wonder GOD told me to just let them go

[dobman53]

Arron,, Truth Child: You can't be serious?? Dude relax would ya!!

You seem to think your so all mighty holy, an obvious joke about your richousness blows your little mind to pieces.

Then to rant and rave in describing every line, holy mackeral!!!

I guess you being so blinded by all those cocka-maimmy lies of Penticostalism has got you into such a state where just the mere mentioning or simply saying anything even an obvious joke causes your supreme holiness to go bonkers.

Maybe you and TATM could fly up in the clouds and play a little harp music or something. Or maybe just find yourselves a real fluffy cloud and take a snoose? You need a serious rest there partner, seriously!!!!

Before I close I don't mean to rock your world (or cloud) but actually dear Arron, your beliefs are thoughs as the devil himself would have you believe. YAP!! thats right Satan said so back in the first world age, He told me Dob you just watch what I can make Arron believe. I'll have him believing all kinds of Gibberish, and TATM to!!!

I said Get behind me Satan and he ran off like a cat of nine tailed whipped hound. If you know what I mean???

DOB!

PS. I'm having a little fun at your excuse, but I could'nt think of a better pair than the two of you. Beings you both believe all this is so holy?? You know it just has to be, I mean after all God created it so it just has to be holy?? RIGHT??

[dobman53]

Trainedobserver: I'm well aware of all you ignorance where God is concerned. As I know of your pride in being a devout athiest. Hopefully for your sake all your beliefs give you the utmost in personal satisfaction.

I'm sure your aware it's apointed for all men to once die. Being a christian or not such a day will come. Here again I do honestly hope that upon your death you once again realize the utmost in personal satisfaction.

DOB!

[dobman53]

TATM: I see your phonograph needle is once again stuck in the groove, as you repeat yourself over and over. May I suggest you give yourself a smack up the side of your head. Hopefully by doing so you can cause the needle to skip over the parts you can't comprehend?? It's worth a try go ahead give it a smack, you've got nothing to loose?? If your needle gets stuck once more go ahead and smack it again. Before long you could wind up being an expert in the art of smacking.

Later you could go on line some place and brag about it, telling all of your expertise. Perhaps you could even start a whole new ministery, think about it!! As I think you just might be on to something???

(The apostelistic art of head smacking). it's got a niffty ring to it, don't you think??

DOB!

[truth_child]

to the one who tried to tell me it was a joke what they said ,,, no they ment it but i am still saved BY FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS and yes i still beleive in bible terms but they must be bible and not man

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Like I said, Mr. Dobman53, you keep waffling all over Dodge City.

[dobman53]

Thruth Child: Your saved in the BLOOD OF CHRIST... Amen brother Amen!!!

TATM: Still looking for those free waffles, and eggs in Dodge city I see? Amen brother Amen!!!

The reading of an occassional verse or the mere quoting of one, does not make the either of you Saints. Oh now I sure enough know how the each of you wish it were so, knowing the whole while how you each love possing as so holy. Yet such proclaim shall never come to those who seek the easy way out. Here again I guess we can't hold it against you for trying, as you each do try so hard at the easy way out.

I am most saddened at seeing the two of you joined in such a way. Knowing full and well that the each of you are completely discusted at the mere thought of one another. Though in the avoidance of all Biblical truths blindly you do each cling to such a miserable states of exsistance. Feelings of such, where the entire some of your beings total net worth is all wrapped up within the where with alls of your blind ignorance.

I gotta hand it to you guys? Ignorance is so blissfull for such persons as yourselves. There thinking all must now truley see!!! And yet all is made the more perfectly clear of your utter hollow wisdom. Amen Brothers... AMEN!!!

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Thruth Child: Your saved in the BLOOD OF CHRIST... Amen brother Amen!!!

TATM: Still looking for those free waffles, and eggs in Dodge city I see? Amen brother Amen!!!

The reading of an occassional verse or the mere quoting of one, does not make the either of you Saints. Oh now I sure enough know how the each of you wish it were so, knowing the whole while how you each love possing as so holy. Yet such proclaim shall never come to those who seek the easy way out. Here again I guess we can't hold it against you for trying, as you each do try so hard at the easy way out.

I am most saddened at seeing the two of you joined in such a way. Knowing full and well that the each of you are completely discusted at the mere thought of one another. Though in the avoidance of all Biblical truths blindly you do each cling to such a miserable states of exsistance. Feelings of such, where the entire some of your beings total net worth is all wrapped up within the where with alls of your blind ignorance.

I gotta hand it to you guys? Ignorance is so blissfull for such persons as yourselves. There thinking all must now truley see!!! And yet all is made the more perfectly clear of your utter hollow wisdom. Amen Brothers... AMEN!!!

DOB!

AYE! Mr. Doberman, tain't I who claims holiness nor wisdom . . . but thee. Like I said, Mr. Dobman53, you keep waffling all over Dodge City.

[dobman53]

Your Are the master of your own reality.

Waffles and pancakes galour.

I know you claim no wisdom.

For you have none.

Ignorance is your only claim to fame.

He he he he!!

Your favorite sign off, of fighting truth decay in reading the Bible?

I dare say you have read at least one or two verses, haven't you.

At that rate you'll have read the entire text within the next 3 or 4 centries. Keep up the good work your a model of excellance. The many followers whom you wish to have admiration all value your total mastery of all Biblical doctrines.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Your Are the master of your own reality.

Waffles and pancakes galour.

I know you claim no wisdom.

For you have none.

Ignorance is your only claim to fame.

He he he he!!

Your favorite sign off, of fighting truth decay in reading the Bible?

I dare say you have read at least one or two verses, haven't you.

At that rate you'll have read the entire text within the next 3 or 4 centries. Keep up the good work your a model of excellance. The many followers whom you wish to have admiration all value your total mastery of all Biblical doctrines.

AYE! Mr. Doberman, tain't I who claims holiness nor wisdom . . . but thee. Like I said, Mr. Dobman53, you keep waffling all over Dodge City. Unlike yourself, while in school, I read the Bible from cover to cover every three months. I also read five Psalms and 1 Proverbs every day. In the first year, that I wore the appellation of Christian, I read the bible from cover to cover seven times. That is how I know you keep waffling.

[dobman53]

TATM: I find it most strange where one says they've read so much, and know so little.

I'm to assume you did all your reading from the Latin scriptures. Knowing not a single word of Latin??

There by from your thinking it was the effort that counted, where knowledge played no parts.

Tell me!! Are you some sort of waffle freek. Being the type you are where locating the front door is a miricle, I'm wondering do you know your way out of a paper bag??

As I could hold the depths of your Biblical knowledge between my index finger pinched between my thumb. Knowing that from a single puff anyone could blow you knowledge clean away. As the mere pittance it actually represents.

I'll tell you what get out your Bible, that is anything aside from your sole Latin addition. Then flip it open to any given page, and place your nose upon the first verse you see. Then before the presence of God and everybody else you shall have doubled your Biblical knowledge.

DOB!

[truth_child]

to the one who wrote post 997 telling me that i knew i was saved BY THE BLOOD
yes i do and im so glad and i praise THE LORD FOR IT

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

TATM: I find it most strange where one says they've read so much, and know so little.

I'm to assume you did all your reading from the Latin scriptures. Knowing not a single word of Latin??

There by from your thinking it was the effort that counted, where knowledge played no parts.

Tell me!! Are you some sort of waffle freek. Being the type you are where locating the front door is a miricle, I'm wondering do you know your way out of a paper bag??

As I could hold the depths of your Biblical knowledge between my index finger pinched between my thumb. Knowing that from a single puff anyone could blow you knowledge clean away. As the mere pittance it actually represents.

I'll tell you what get out your Bible, that is anything aside from your sole Latin addition. Then flip it open to any given page, and place your nose upon the first verse you see. Then before the presence of God and everybody else you shall have doubled your Biblical knowledge.

DOB!

AYE! Mr. Doberman, tain't I who claims holiness nor wisdom . . . but thee. Like I said, Mr. Dobman53, you keep waffling all over Dodge City. Unlike yourself, while in school, I read the Bible from cover to cover every three months. I also read five Psalms and 1 Proverbs every day. In the first year, that I wore the appellation of Christian, I read the bible from cover to cover seven times. That is how I know you keep waffling.

[dobman53]

TATM: Reading the Bible as you've stated I'm not the least bit shocked with your lack of knowledge.

It reminds me of myself here about 30 or so years ago when I set about to reading the entire Bible. Now don't let it be said I wasn't proud of myself, as I most certainly was. But soon there after I realized as I'm sure you have come to know as well, the simple reading of the Bible was for the most part in one ear and right out the other.

It wasn't untill I actually started to study what I was in reality reading before much if any real wisdom began to take hold.

I do hope for your sake that you might begin to study. Then and only then will any real knowledge begin to take hold. Like I said earlier to just simply read pays no dividends, as it's in the studing where knowledge is found.

Help fight truth decay, (STUDY) your Bible today!

Did you by chance catch that (study) wording as opposed to your simple reading statement??

We might (read!) a magazine article for pleasure.
Yet we seldom (study!) magazine articles??

Approuching the Bible with that mind set of studing being your foremost thought is good advise for all.

The pleasure in recieving knowledge far surpasses any pleasure one might get from a magazine article.

Chances are you could read the Bible 500 times in the fashion you've chosen, and you would'nt know a thing more than you do presently. Which by the way isn't much!!

So give that studing aspect a little more thought before you choose to brag about your having so little knowledge. I made mention earlier if you had devoted a fraction of the amount of time studing the Bible as you had studing Penticostal Gibberish, you just might have come to know a few things by now.

DOB!

[dobman53]

TATM: Skip the waffles and pancakes, as such Gibberish is not very becoming of one who needs so much instruction.

Your Gibberish has become so predictable it's no longer funny.

Though I guess with you being the real joke we've come to expect nothing less from you.

DOB!

[dobman53]

PS.. Reading the bible every 3 months cover to cover proves beyond dought your an expert speed reader.

DOB!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

AYE! Mr. Doberman, tain't I who claims holiness nor wisdom . . . but thee. Like I said, Mr. Dobman53, you keep waffling all over Dodge City. If I only had 1/1,000,000 as much wisdom as you believe you have, I would be a genius many times over. Unlike yourself, while in school, I read the Bible from cover to cover every three months. I also read five Psalms and 1 Proverbs every day. In the first year, that I wore the appellation of Christian, I read the bible from cover to cover seven times. That is how I know you keep waffling. But then I didn't fall sucker to your swami.

[truth_child]

to the ones who wrote the wo above posts i read the bible through five to six time a year. i do read fast and thank GOD FOR THE ability to do so. i dont just read it either but study it

[truth_child]

a lot of times i just get something on my mind that i want to know and i just search the bible till i find it then i study it to find out more about what i wanted to know