does anyone miss going to church?

[itdoesntmatter]

i'm not talking about how things are now, but how some things should have been. most of us who left, didn't leave with a group of people, but sort of one person or family at a time. personally i still have faith that things will turn around, but it really sucks that it has taken and is taking so long. :(

[jlintott]

Hello IDM!,

I think I hear where you are coming from, buddy.

My question to you is this:

Do you think the LWF is truly representative of the sons of Abraham enough to equate it's current state of affairs as the same as their 40 years of "wandering in the wilderness"?

Did this wilderness experience begin when JRS died?

I want to know what you know.

I am not from the FBI, or anything like that.

-JL

[jimmie_]

Of course I miss going to church. But then again I miss a lot of things from back when I was a teenager. That doesn't mean I would want to go back there. Some of the stuff I was into in those days were not good for me and I'm not interested in what they might have evolved or morphed into over the years.

Seriously and more to the point, there came a time when I just had to say to myself, "These folks are pretty nuts and this is NOT what I feel is true ... for me, or maybe even for most spititually seeking/finding people."
I really feel that the LWF and its associates, like RD's ministry, were a step down a dark alley in my spiritual growth.
I bailed early and feel lucky for that.
I am not attracted to that kind of group hysteria, or self delusion anymore.
I am no longer looking for a "powerful word of The Lord;" I am perfectly content with daily serenity - it's tough enough to find.

[winterland]

Jimmie, your wrote ..."I am perfectly content with daily serenity - it's tough enough to find."

I can identify and agree with so much of what you wrote in your last post. I have been reading a lot from the Complete Jewish Bible lately. In the back of this version is a glossary that defines shalom as follows: peace, tranquility, safety, well-being, welfare, health, contentment, success, comfort wholeness and integrity. Shalom is a common greeting. Matt. 10:12

Serenity and shalom are good things to seek for. Best wishes, Winterland

[jimmie_]

Thanks winterland and right back atch-ya.

All kinds of heavy-duty spiritual paths from, Christain "power-ministries" of healing, prophesy, and apostleship; to Hindu & Yogic siddhies of levitation, transendant visualization, and physical & mental contortionism; to Daoist necromancy & fortune-telling, come with powerful risks attached. Not the least of which is losing one's way in pursuit of greater power and perceived "control" over events and even over other people.
But the biggest risk is believing that any of that stuff matters in the ultimate sense. I, personally have my doubts that any of that stuff is even the "real deal" - at least in the cases I have observed and been exposed to.
I'm much more interested in learning how to live an authentic life, here and now / day to day, than I am in chasing after a bunch hooey and mumbo-jumbo.

May we all be happy.
May we all be free.
May all our suffering end. I know, I know - but hey, it's something to aim for!

[itdoesntmatter]

jl, it was just a figure of speech, walk talk if you will. it's just i still believe in the living word that was brought. i know i'm no shining example but i still believe the words to be true. God is no respecter of persons, so i don't believe i have to be either. i believe we are all equally important in this together.

Hello IDM!,

I think I hear where you are coming from, buddy.

My question to you is this:

Do you think the LWF is truly representative of the sons of Abraham enough to equate it's current state of affairs as the same as their 40 years of "wandering in the wilderness"?

Did this wilderness experience begin when JRS died?

I want to know what you know.

I am not from the FBI, or anything like that.

-JL

[jimmie_]

Does anybody know what the thumbs down icon on my last post mean?
Did I offend someone?

[winterland]

Jimmie, don't get offended. Someone is just trying to take away your serenity.

[rodney_mccarthy]

god is being copied by pretenders....church goers not eklesia...How can ekclesia gather? God must draw them together

[jlintott]

god is being copied by pretenders....church goers not eklesia...How can ekclesia gather? God must draw them together

I hope God does a fresh work soon.
If the economy collapses, and times get tough, People will start seeking Him. Then the winnowing process will begin with another generation. We might live to see it.

-JL

[winterland]

K,... email me at strhouse@telusplanet.net

[jlintott]

Church happens in a lot of different places.

It is just plain familiarity which we sometimes miss.

After all, we did have some pretty strong connections within the LW,

Be open minded, try scouting around the various flavours of the believer's in your area.

You don't need to join them ASAP- just be a tourist; an observer. Check them out.

It might be enlightening.

It might even be healing.

-JL

[winterland]

Spaceman here:



Be open minded, try scouting around the various flavours of the believer's in your area.

You don't need to join them ASAP- just be a tourist; an observer. Check them out.

It might be enlightening.

It might even be healing.

-JL

Good suggestion JL:

We actually tried that, but the pastor suggested we might be happier going to another church.

By the way, do you remember when JRS said "once you've been in this walk, you're ruined for anything else"?

My interpretation of that comment is that it was so horrible in the WALK, that there's no way you'll ever want to darken the doorstep of ANY church for the rest of your life.

[jlintott]

I joined a 4 square church for about 6 years.
It was necessary at the time, as my little world was crumbling, and I had to seek God.

They didn't know much about the LWF . I made some trustworthy friends there.

Sometimes, a person has a rough patch in life. So, you do what you gotta do.

-JL

[mike_j]

Spaceman here:
My interpretation of that comment is that it was so horrible in the WALK, that there's no way you'll ever want to darken the doorstep of ANY church for the rest of your life.

Ha--
If it hadn't been for the alcohol, I don't know if I could have endured those times ;)

[winterland]

Spaceman here:



Good suggestion JL:

We actually tried that, but the pastor suggested we might be happier going to another church.

By the way, do you remember when JRS said "once you've been in this walk, you're ruined for anything else"?

My interpretation of that comment is that it was so horrible in the WALK, that there's no way you'll ever want to darken the doorstep of ANY church for the rest of your life.

Spaceman here:

JL:

Sorry to make light of your comment, JL. I guess I see an opportunity for a joke and I just can't resist.

Mike, glad you liked our warped take on things.

The incident about the pastor suggesting we would be happier in another church actually happened to a friend of mine. He was a bit of a s**t disturber and when presented with the prospect of leaving the church he replied: "Oh no! I'm perfectly happy here." He eventually left.

The JRS comment about the walk "ruining us for anything else" has haunted me for 30 years. Still trying to figure that one out.

[jlintott]

Spaceman:

I actually appreciate your humor. It is far better than having to take everything point blank, and black or white. Like it really matters, bro!

So, really, I did belong to a 4 square church for awhile. I kind of needed a church at the time. I was in bad shape. I will spare you the details, though. It was probably what GG calls "the cross". Nobody there knew about "walk lingo", JRS, or any of the intensity we carried so much. After the LWF, it was a little like visiting a new country where they just did things so differently.

You know what? The gifts we had (like prophecy) never really go away. When visiting a new church, sometimes God might use you. I think when we are stripped of most of our LW affectations, we get more to the heart of what God made us for, anyway. All that personality-cult conformity is for the birds!

I think we should be rid of most of what we were taught in the walk. But keeping some of the best bits is OK.

Spaceman,
If Stevens said something so long ago, and it is a stumbling block to you, it's OK to "let it go". You don't really have to eat the whole tamale. Nobody should have to carry any guilt from those days. I prefer to think of our transition out of that way of thinking to be a sort of a distilation process. Even, a "born again" thing.

-JL

[jlintott]

If someone calls you a horse-just laugh because it's funny.

If they call you a horse a second time-you better do something about it. Let them know.

If they call you a horse three times-well friend, You Better Go Buy Yourself A Saddle.

[jlintott]

The cross. That seems to be the key thing. The MO of a changing, growing person.

Getting those old, limbs lopped- usually happen in the dead of winter, just when things are looking really bleak, and hopeless.

Letting the "master vinedresser" come along and do his thing on the old growth will allow that vine to be fruitful, and healthy again, come springtime.

[themissinglink]

Spaceman here:


The JRS comment about the walk "ruining us for anything else" has haunted me for 30 years. Still trying to figure that one out.



Aloha Spaceman~

I think the quote was actually, "for anything LESS" which was his hope that MORE of God would be the only direction we could take. I believe that is the Truth!~ no matter how one wants to slant it. I for one, was definitely "ruined for less....and am haunted by the "Higher calling of my Lord" ~ Pressing on and all that, with a real sense of double or nothing being a requirement of my accountability in believe to apprehend Him for that which I was first apprehended by Him. It is the Contented discontentment that keeps apathy and passivity clearly identified as an enemy of the Cross to which I cleave and believe is my only means of progress. Not a religious striving, but an appropriation of ever increasing Revelation of Grace to LAY HOLD! The Unfolding is God's problem, that fixed focus is my responsibility, and yet that even, by His Grace alone. Love, Link

[themissinglink]

Spaceman:



You know what? The gifts we had (like prophecy) never really go away. When visiting a new church, sometimes God might use you. I think when we are stripped of most of our LW affectations, we get more to the heart of what God made us for, anyway. All that personality-cult conformity is for the birds!

-JL

I think that is right on JL. I also believe that is why he hoped to "burn the whole thing down and let God raise up in Fire what remained unperishable Seed." He seemed not to be able to get that done, though it was his last intentions. Yet again, it also seems quite possible that in all this stubble within which we find each other, he may have indeed succeeded in setting a match to it after all! A movement WITHOUT leaders, is what he proclaimed God showing him must overtake all the position seeking flesh (remember how even commission teaching still saw that become positions.....what greater positions than the whole Timothy thing, etc, etc, ad infinitum. (I shared with you the old Hawaiian prophecy waiting the dissolution as well, I believe, so I won't burden you with it again.)

Remember the revelation he had in Honolulu of the Body birthing very tiny versions of all of us? That was cool, The true leapfrog thing will never happen to our old natures. Our similitudes always come freighted with the tell tale ego trips embedded. Ahhhhh, the Miraculous Fruit of the Cross.....we Live by Faith, and yield the Right of Way, and behold the Coming and Reigning King of Kings! Not ONE WORD of imperishable Seed will fall to the ground void....yet surely ONLY He is Able!
Love, GG

[itdoesntmatter]

Church happens in a lot of different places.

It is just plain familiarity which we sometimes miss.

After all, we did have some pretty strong connections within the LW,

Be open minded, try scouting around the various flavours of the believer's in your area.

You don't need to join them ASAP- just be a tourist; an observer. Check them out.

It might be enlightening.

It might even be healing.

-JL

i miss the worship the most. not necessarily the songs, which were good, but the worship when there weren't to many interuptions. i don't feel i really need a healing per se, but to see a fulfillment of the words that were spoken.

[itdoesntmatter]

Spaceman here:

JL:

Sorry to make light of your comment, JL. I guess I see an opportunity for a joke and I just can't resist.

Mike, glad you liked our warped take on things.

The incident about the pastor suggesting we would be happier in another church actually happened to a friend of mine. He was a bit of a s**t disturber and when presented with the prospect of leaving the church he replied: "Oh no! I'm perfectly happy here." He eventually left.

The JRS comment about the walk "ruining us for anything else" has haunted me for 30 years. Still trying to figure that one out.

we have been taught to much to go anywhere else is the way i feel about it. i don't like the way things are going right now and some things done in the past, but God is true to his word.

[itdoesntmatter]

I think that is right on JL. I also believe that is why he hoped to "burn the whole thing down and let God raise up in Fire what remained unperishable Seed." He seemed not to be able to get that done, though it was his last intentions. Yet again, it also seems quite possible that in all this stubble within which we find each other, he may have indeed succeeded in setting a match to it after all! A movement WITHOUT leaders, is what he proclaimed God showing him must overtake all the position seeking flesh (remember how even commission teaching still saw that become positions.....what greater positions than the whole Timothy thing, etc, etc, ad infinitum. (I shared with you the old Hawaiian prophecy waiting the dissolution as well, I believe, so I won't burden you with it again.)

Remember the revelation he had in Honolulu of the Body birthing very tiny versions of all of us? That was cool, The true leapfrog thing will never happen to our old natures. Our similitudes always come freighted with the tell tale ego trips embedded. Ahhhhh, the Miraculous Fruit of the Cross.....we Live by Faith, and yield the Right of Way, and behold the Coming and Reigning King of Kings! Not ONE WORD of imperishable Seed will fall to the ground void....yet surely ONLY He is Able!
Love, GG

i remember the body was giving birth to the ministries and they became little people, and then they turned around and gave birth to us. that is still not fulfilled, but i believe eventually it will be. any day would be fine with me(the sooner the better). :)

[themissinglink]

i remember the body was giving birth to the ministries and they became little people, and then they turned around and gave birth to us. that is still not fulfilled, but i believe eventually it will be. any day would be fine with me(the sooner the better). :)

Indeed! We agree together, and hasten the Day...... even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus!

[winterland]

Wow, reading all of this certainly shows me how different my thinking is today from twenty-five years ago when my church fellowship left the Walk. My relationship with the Lord now is so much simplier and more personal.

I also see how complicated the Walk made human relationships with their doctrines and beliefs regarding submission and authority. And how very "trippy" it had all become. I guess it is the ultimate ego trip to have someone "under" you. We were so trained to get on the latest merry-go-round to line up with the current "Word." All in the name of change. Let's change marriage relationships. Let's change parent/child relationships. Let's build a better mousetrap and build a "new order."

I remember parents asking Brother Stevens to name their children for them. We did so many things to try to prove and show our dedication. Give, give, give....it was endless and it was never enough. There was always one more area of the flesh that needed to be exposed and crucified. One more area of our dedication that needed to be tested.

I am thankful my children were not raised in the Walk. I certainly wouldn't want to saddle them with all of that baggage. So many weights were put upon us and so many weights we carried. It is so nice to walk free.

[winterland]

I think we should be rid of most of what we were taught in the walk.

-JL

Spaceman here:

JL: Glad you like our odd take on things, and our attempts at humor. The humor has been healing for us, as we've found that if we can laugh at our pain, we're well on our way out of it. The Lord has also shown us a different perspective of things and it helps our understanding.

Speaking of different perspectives, we've been spending quite a bit of time in the scriptures over the past 3 years and have learned some new doctrines (new, at least, to us).

1. Jesus loves us all equally (Eph 3:19), everyone has value, as He has no favourites (Rom 2:11). He wants to bless us (Is 30:18). There is no heirarchy in the new covenant.

2. Its all about Jesus (Rom 11:36), not personalities or organizations. He wants a personal relationship with us (Jn 15:15), He doesn't want us to follow man (Jer 17:5-8), or be enslaved (Rom 6:16). Idolatry is destructive (Ps 115:8).

3. Jesus is not a punisher, He doesn't want us to think of Him that way, as it separates us from His love (Luke 19:22). Our old self has already been crucified with Him (Rom 6:6). Otherwise, He died needlessly (Gal 2:20,21). He kindly teaches, corrects and cleanses us, but there are consequences of sin (Lev 5:17).

4. Jesus had total victory at the cross. He said "the ruler of this age has been judged" (Jn 16:11). Glorifying the enemy yields bad fruit.

[dew_drop]

Do I miss going to church?

In the late 1980's 1988 or 1989,
When the call was being made for every one to surrender their lives & their free wills to the ministry & to allow the ministry to make decisions for us & over us in life,

At this time - I made the decision not to allow the ministry to rule over me or my life.

Making this decision not to lay down my life & my free will "automatically separated" me from those I had been related to in life as spiritual brothers & sisters in the faith.

I didn't leave the church at this time, but because most of the members had entered into making a commitment to give up their free wills, to lay down thier lives, to submit every aspect of their lives to the ministry so that the ministry could make decisions for them- in, over & about their lives - relationships between us as members changed.

The members began asking me , did you submit this or that to the ministry? Because they were submitting their lives and because I was not - we were no longer "Simply" related.

Before this commitment came about - (apart from those who were ministries) as a sheep, you would have to go to the ministry to ask them for their input or for help regarding a matter. So if you made your own decisions - you remained for the most part free.

So when a relationship of complete obedience & submission was established between the ministry & the majority of the members - those who did not enter into this commitment
(" automatically became separated & later outsiders. ")

So in a manner of speaking -we were put out of the church - before we left.

On top of this commitment - special services were held to seal the commitment on a deeper level.

The congregation was next further led by the ministry to vow themselves to be spiritually married to Marilyn - to be faithful to her - as the lord and this marriage of being given to and obedient & faithful to Marilyn , was sealed with the communion cup.

So the ministry and all those who entered into this marriage made a vow & bound themselves to Marilyn. So if any one thought for themselves anything different than what was being spoken from the pulpit - the act of thinking for ones self so as not to be surrendered - this itself was later considered as being divisive or rebellious against God.

It would be many many years later - in seeking the Lord in the Scriptures - that I found that Jesus Christ Himself was commanded by the Father to be in charge of His own life. Jesus made known the will of the Father when He said,

"No man takes my life, I lay it down & I take it up, this Commandment I received from My Father."

The Father commanded Him to be in charge of His own life.

So the ministry we were related to , were themselves led astray and away from the Will of the Father - the ministry was 1st led by G&M to give up their free wills and any one who did not subject themselves to being obedient to G&M's will were removed from the ministry as being a ministry.

After G&M brought the ministry in subjection to themselves as the being the authority over the church, they had the ministry bring the congregation in subjection
to them - using the ministry who was being obedient to G&M as the spiritual head & authority - so that "all" were made subject to being obedient to G&M.

However - the Scripture reveals that Jesus Himself was given Command by the Father that He stay free - and be in charge of His own life.

When John was alive & well he held things in check - he tried to guard our freedom & to protect us. But one man can only do so much. We would have to grow up and take our lumps while learning the "Truth". (Thump - Coulda Had A V8!)

Love Ya,
Sherry

[daikon]

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted in some time (a person can lose track of work, food and sleep when coming here and reading around and commenting... :-)

But, I have kept up with the LW threads.

RE: Sherry's prior post... (hello Sherry, I remember you from LB -- Geege will know...)

----- That makes me so grateful that I left as early as I did. Think it was 1979 -- I know JRS (I never was there when the salutation changed to John) was still alive and still married to his former wife. The last person I spoke to in person before I left was Marilyn (Holbrook at the time) because she was the head of my "job /ministry" for lack of a better word. I remember her answer was so vague and so involved with the politics of persons and hierarchies... that I walked away with this exact thought in my mind -- "I might as well be a Methodist".
Now this is not a slam to the Methodists, probably some fine folks within that doctrine club -- my thought was more... dang, it's all about positioning these "leaders" not about positioning even the lowest of us at the foot of the cross staring into the Truth, Life and Way -- Jesus in the flesh. It was not about the resurrection and the promise of our personal walk with God; it was about keeping the organization moving and the power intact...
Little did I know at the time that it was already known JRS had failing health. There were signs I now remember -- things that were said, whispered, heads turned when those of us who worked the fringe of the "inner circle" approached the ones who were so very "in the know" (an entire thought that now sickens me and causes my heart to break). The power plays were beginning. Though in mercy, I imagine many people truly thought they were doing what was necessary to hold on to the Word and let it continue either by the will for JRS to survive or the eventual continuation of a true ministry.
From all I have read and sensed in the spirit over the last almost thirty years -- I think if I would have remained, I probably would at this time be in some trouble with the Lord's adminition to "obey the laws of the land" and very much in His passion when He tore through the temple and trashed it.
God's grace has kept me free in many ways!

The love of God sings a song in all your hearts right NOW

peace,
d

PS - spaceman, your interpretation of the scriptures causes my spirit to soar... God is with you, dude Ye-hah!

[dew_drop]

Hi Daikon,

Yes it is me from LB, I was in LB starting in 1969 or 1970 ?.

What amazes me is up to as many as 30 or maybe even almost 40 years later, that we are all connecting & communicating with one another.

I don't know who you are by what you wrote in your post - but by what you wrote I know you were there and that we knew each other. Glad you are here again - I think all of us are getting to know one another again & it is quite an experience - a good experience.

I hope to know, to really know who you are.

peace back to you & peace be with you & for you, every where you go,

Sherry

[itdoesntmatter]

Do I miss going to church?

In the late 1980's 1988 or 1989,
When the call was being made for every one to surrender their lives & their free wills to the ministry & to allow the ministry to make decisions for us & over us in life,

At this time - I made the decision not to allow the ministry to rule over me or my life.

Making this decision not to lay down my life & my free will "automatically separated" me from those I had been related to in life as spiritual brothers & sisters in the faith.

I didn't leave the church at this time, but because most of the members had entered into making a commitment to give up their free wills, to lay down thier lives, to submit every aspect of their lives to the ministry so that the ministry could make decisions for them- in, over & about their lives - relationships between us as members changed.

The members began asking me , did you submit this or that to the ministry? Because they were submitting their lives and because I was not - we were no longer "Simply" related.

Before this commitment came about - (apart from those who were ministries) as a sheep, you would have to go to the ministry to ask them for their input or for help regarding a matter. So if you made your own decisions - you remained for the most part free.

So when a relationship of complete obedience & submission was established between the ministry & the majority of the members - those who did not enter into this commitment
(" automatically became separated & later outsiders. ")

So in a manner of speaking -we were put out of the church - before we left.

On top of this commitment - special services were held to seal the commitment on a deeper level.

The congregation was next further led by the ministry to vow themselves to be spiritually married to Marilyn - to be faithful to her - as the lord and this marriage of being given to and obedient & faithful to Marilyn , was sealed with the communion cup.

So the ministry and all those who entered into this marriage made a vow & bound themselves to Marilyn. So if any one thought for themselves anything different than what was being spoken from the pulpit - the act of thinking for ones self so as not to be surrendered - this itself was later considered as being divisive or rebellious against God.

It would be many many years later - in seeking the Lord in the Scriptures - that I found that Jesus Christ Himself was commanded by the Father to be in charge of His own life. Jesus made known the will of the Father when He said,

"No man takes my life, I lay it down & I take it up, this Commandment I received from My Father."

The Father commanded Him to be in charge of His own life.

So the ministry we were related to , were themselves led astray and away from the Will of the Father - the ministry was 1st led by G&M to give up their free wills and any one who did not subject themselves to being obedient to G&M's will were removed from the ministry as being a ministry.

After G&M brought the ministry in subjection to themselves as the being the authority over the church, they had the ministry bring the congregation in subjection
to them - using the ministry who was being obedient to G&M as the spiritual head & authority - so that "all" were made subject to being obedient to G&M.

However - the Scripture reveals that Jesus Himself was given Command by the Father that He stay free - and be in charge of His own life.

When John was alive & well he held things in check - he tried to guard our freedom & to protect us. But one man can only do so much. We would have to grow up and take our lumps while learning the "Truth". (Thump - Coulda Had A V8!)

Love Ya,
Sherry

wow, i'm glad i wasn't around at that time. i checked out after a couple of years after johns death because of people trying to tell you what to do. thanks for sharing, because i've always wondered what happened. i've heard a little of what had happened, but never this detailed.

[itdoesntmatter]

MYTH #6: The Living Word Fellowship controls its members' thoughts and enforces their continued involvement in the church.

FACT: We believe that God places each individual member in the Body of Christ as it pleases Him (I Corinthians 12:18). Members of The Living Word Fellowship are free to follow God's leading for their lives, and are encouraged to fulfill their individual destinies in whatever location God may choose for them. As in any Christ-centered church, members may come and go with God's blessing and without any condemnation. We teach our members to know the voice of the Lord and to make their individual choices by following the leading of the Holy Spirit. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Romans 8:14).

[mike_j]

MYTH #6: The Living Word Fellowship controls its members' thoughts and enforces their continued involvement in the church.

FACT: We believe that God places each individual member in the Body of Christ as it pleases Him (I Corinthians 12:18). Members of The Living Word Fellowship are free to follow God's leading for their lives, and are encouraged to fulfill their individual destinies in whatever location God may choose for them. As in any Christ-centered church, members may come and go with God's blessing and without any condemnation. We teach our members to know the voice of the Lord and to make their individual choices by following the leading of the Holy Spirit. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Romans 8:14).

excellent spin!
Hopefully those who have had no experience with TLWF will believe it.

[dew_drop]

Dear itdoesntmatter & Mike,

Re: The Fact Below: If this were altogether so (a living honest reality in the lives of those who were once called ministries or leaders, & the congregation), we wouldn't be here talking about what was, what should have been, and what should be, that isn't yet.


FACT: We believe that God places each individual member in the Body of Christ as it pleases Him (I Corinthians 12:18). Members of The Living Word Fellowship are free to follow God's leading for their lives, and are encouraged to fulfill their individual destinies in whatever location God may choose for them. As in any Christ-centered church, members may come and go with God's blessing and without any condemnation. We teach our members to know the voice of the Lord and to make their individual choices by following the leading of the Holy Spirit. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Romans 8:14).excellent spin!


Because to walk in the above fact - they would have had to return to us, saying I repent. They would have acknowledged that what they did to us was wrong and they would have to acknowledge the Lord Himself as being "Lord" - so that we would be able to know that they really were repentant with understanding that what they did & what was done to us, as brethren, that these things were wrong - a sin against us, so that we could forgive them.

If your brother sins, rebuke him, if he return to you saying, I repent, forgive him.
With out repentance there is no forgiveness of sin.

If they are unwilling to acknowledge that what they did to us was wrong, then how can they relate to the idea that in doing what they did, this was also a sin against the Lord?


So if there are no longer any leaders

if "they" are no longer representing them selves to the congregation as being in their flesh - the Lord "Himself" , as the spiritual head & as the spiritual authority over the church, they would have confessed their sin to the congregation and they would have told the congregation that the place they had taken for themselves as the being the "Lord" was wrong, and they would have told the congregation that having taking this place, no matter how good they had believed their intensions in doing this was, that it resulted in hurting many of God people, that it resulted in destroying relationships, that God wanted and ordained to exist between husbands & wives and their children (All Families) and between brothers and sisters in the faith .

That as a result of the thinking they held and taught & acted upon - that they later came to find out that they thru this, had injured, & for many years had participated together in destroying the well being of many people in life, that they themselves had sinned, by doing this against their brethren,

So if they came know the "Truth" If they knew they sinned and did not humble themselves and confess their sin in this to the congregation but hid the truth from the congregation in this matter - and instituted that there were no longer going to be any leaders, so as to appear as being compliant with the Word of the Lord - with out having humbled them selves to the congregation revealing the error of their thinking & thinking they could escape having to answer to the Lord - answer to what is the Truth & then went on in life - as if they had done nothing wrong and you know it is far easier to try to go around all of this by saying your free to come and go as you please now, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus - members may come and go with God's blessing and without any condemnation

Some men's sins go before them - other men's sins follow them - with out repentance there is no forgiveness of sin.

I believe it is both for their sake and our sakes that - we are here waiting for them
to return to us, saying I repent!

Love you,
Sherry

[themissinglink]

I am thankful my children were not raised in the Walk. I certainly wouldn't want to saddle them with all of that baggage. So many weights were put upon us and so many weights we carried. It is so nice to walk free.



I must say, though it came in the form of instant exile---- I too, am very grateful my sons escaped the logistics as well. Studying the Word that came and learning to be led unencumbered, has made them very free spirits. For the Word, I am always grateful, for the aftermath, and even the mess within while we sojourned, it gives me joy that they are far more "Narnian" than what we seemed to struggle through! Aloha, LINK

[itdoesntmatter]

excellent spin!
Hopefully those who have had no experience with TLWF will believe it.

why would you hope for that? until the sins of the past are changed and repented of, it will only hurt more people.

[itdoesntmatter]

Dear itdoesntmatter & Mike,

Re: The Fact Below: If this were altogether so (a living honest reality in the lives of those who were once called ministries or leaders, & the congregation), we wouldn't be here talking about what was, what should have been, and what should be, that isn't yet.


FACT: We believe that God places each individual member in the Body of Christ as it pleases Him (I Corinthians 12:18). Members of The Living Word Fellowship are free to follow God's leading for their lives, and are encouraged to fulfill their individual destinies in whatever location God may choose for them. As in any Christ-centered church, members may come and go with God's blessing and without any condemnation. We teach our members to know the voice of the Lord and to make their individual choices by following the leading of the Holy Spirit. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Romans 8:14).excellent spin!


Because to walk in the above fact - they would have had to return to us, saying I repent. They would have acknowledged that what they did to us was wrong and they would have to acknowledge the Lord Himself as being "Lord" - so that we would be able to know that they really were repentant with understanding that what they did & what was done to us, as brethren, that these things were wrong - a sin against us, so that we could forgive them.

If your brother sins, rebuke him, if he return to you saying, I repent, forgive him.
With out repentance there is no forgiveness of sin.

If they are unwilling to acknowledge that what they did to us was wrong, then how can they relate to the idea that in doing what they did, this was also a sin against the Lord?


So if there are no longer any leaders

if "they" are no longer representing them selves to the congregation as being in their flesh - the Lord "Himself" , as the spiritual head & as the spiritual authority over the church, they would have confessed their sin to the congregation and they would have told the congregation that the place they had taken for themselves as the being the "Lord" was wrong, and they would have told the congregation that having taking this place, no matter how good they had believed their intensions in doing this was, that it resulted in hurting many of God people, that it resulted in destroying relationships, that God wanted and ordained to exist between husbands & wives and their children (All Families) and between brothers and sisters in the faith .

That as a result of the thinking they held and taught & acted upon - that they later came to find out that they thru this, had injured, & for many years had participated together in destroying the well being of many people in life, that they themselves had sinned, by doing this against their brethren,

So if they came know the "Truth" If they knew they sinned and did not humble themselves and confess their sin in this to the congregation but hid the truth from the congregation in this matter - and instituted that there were no longer going to be any leaders, so as to appear as being compliant with the Word of the Lord - with out having humbled them selves to the congregation revealing the error of their thinking & thinking they could escape having to answer to the Lord - answer to what is the Truth & then went on in life - as if they had done nothing wrong and you know it is far easier to try to go around all of this by saying your free to come and go as you please now, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus - members may come and go with God's blessing and without any condemnation

Some men's sins go before them - other men's sins follow them - with out repentance there is no forgiveness of sin.

I believe it is both for their sake and our sakes that - we are here waiting for them
to return to us, saying I repent!

Love you,
Sherry

repentance with change. you are right in saying "both for their sake and our sakes".

[dew_drop]

Itdoesn'tmatter,
Thanks for your reply,

Would you please speak your heart in this that you wrote - what you mean in agreeing with what I wrote in saying for their sakes and for our sakes?
-----------
I hope to & plan on going to see the construction work that my son has done on the church property across the street from the valley school. He is so proud of what he has accomplished & I do want to see what he has done, he sent me pictures & it's is quite beautiful.

He is 30 years old & I don't have any qualms about him growing up in the church
and being with the people that I grew up with in the church. I know that I love the
people and the fact that I don't think like they think in many ways, I understand the language and I understand the thinking and I have every good wish and prayer & want the best for every one of them. They have something I don't have and I have something they don't have. But I believe what we each have was given to us by the Lord.

Even though I am not related to them in the way that I was once was related, none the less I know I will always be related to them, because this is where God set me in the body & where I grew up in the faith. I would never trade the years that were given to me in the place where the Lord placed me Himself in His body.

When children grow up they leave home but they are always related as family.
Whether we are far away or whether we are near - I think we were all very young, and,I think what we loved and experienced was real, and we haven't lost what we received - it's part of us.

We can't settle for anything less than & what we embraced together - the hope,
the joy, a taste of the fullness & the goodness of life. I think this is why we are ruined for anything else, it is the call of God, or the mark of God that is on our spirits & in our hearts,
and the Lord touched us , fed us, ministered to us and it was all magnified & intensified because we were young, like children, and we believed the good news we heard in this place, where we were at one time altogether, worshipping the Lord.

We still believe, and where ever we are, we still know the Lord is with us.

In many things that I have written here, I haven't found a whole lot of agreement with me in the things I have said but I have seen that is there is a fine large vein of Gold
which is like agreement -It's a spirit & heart matter.

I frame most of what I say in the Scriptures to convey my thoughts because I over the years found the Lord in the Scriptures. This is what sustained me and what sustained my faith and what directed my faith, to be in the Lord, Himself.

I once thought in ways, that I do not think now, having been enlightened when I sought the Lord in many difficult times. I can see where I fell short and did not give what was needed, what should have been given and I couldn't give it because I believed
a lie. And it breaks my heart that I did not give what was needed. I still see some things in me that I do know want in me, - I hear it in my voice, i feel it in my heart.

I have only one prophetic word over my life - I was commissioned during the
music convocation in the valley - it was spoken that I was a sweet Psalmist in Israel,
and that I would draw the hungry hearts of men into the presence of the Father.

This is what I am, this is what I will be, my words don't sound very sweet, I know they sound exacting, but repentance and honoring the Lord Himself as Lord in all these things that we are groaning over and seeking God in - repentance is a sweet song that will bring peace and reconciliations, that will dry up every tear, that we all have running down our cheeks, it will repair the broken hearted. Not for any wrong that was done, or wrong that each of us may have done but for the love of one another and for the glory of our King.


Sherry

[themissinglink]

It is the Song of a sweet Psalmist.....the song that drives away the madness of Saul, and hopefully brings fruitful repentence without which there can be no restoration.

The repentence you continue in, is that which keeps the Song sweet..... and leads by example, weeping between the porch and the altar.....so proceed the escorts into His Presence. (John led by a broken and repentant heart, with Love that covers a multitude of sins,-even his own---in example teaching and imparting to us.... even as the forgiving cannot be turned away from the Eternal Protection of forgiveness without measure. This mantle rests safely on your shoulders from a humble father. We do not have to be perfect.....He alone is our Righteousness and our Covering.)

small in our own sight, we remain in the Palm of His Hand. Mahalo for your heart Sherry... malama pono, GG

[daikon]

On forgiveness...

It's not about incidents, it is a state of being.

The Lord's Prayer -- we've all said it often, to where it has become almost rote and somewhat diluted in the absolute, perfect simplicity of the words...

God does this and that... and all we are required to do is forgive. Rather "be forgiving" and in that be forgiven...

I just wrote a long post about the prayer and when I went to post, FN kept kicking me off... so, I'm trying this short note. Meditate on this perfect prayer and you will come to such a depth of truth.


Salutations in Christ

(it occurs to me... the early followers often communicated by letter, and now 2000+ years later, we still do... only it's electronic... the Church is indeed the people. amen)

[winterland]

GG and Dewdrop, I had a couple of thoughts on repentance. I found an interesting definition of the word "repentance" from the Complete Jewish Bible. ... The Hebrew word is t'shu-vah -- literally, "TURNING." In the context of behavior it means repentance, since the sinner who "does t'shuvah" is turning from sin to God. ( Matt. 13:15 is quoted from Isaiah 6:9-10)

"You will keep on hearing but never understand, and keep on seeing but never perceive, because the heart of this people has become dull--with their ears they barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, so as not to see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and do t'shuvah, so that I could heal them."

I love the idea of "turning to God." The word "repentance" in English can have a negative connotation for some people. But this passage clearly tells us what the fruit of "non-repentance" is.

GG, I know that you are interested in the Native people of Hawaii. I wanted to tell you about something that happened here in Canada in the political process that was quite powerful and fits in beautifully with our discussion of repentance. This past month the Prime Minister of Canada, Steven Harper, stood up in the House of Commons in Ottawa (the nation's capitol) and publically apologized to Canada's aboriginal people. Many aboriginal children in Canada were removed from their families and put into residential schools. This took place from the 1880's up until the 1960's. The fruit of this "social experiment" was devestating to Canada's native peoples.

The action of a public apology by the Canadian Prime Minister was very moving for many people here in Canada, both native and non-native. Yes, repentance is a very powerful thing.

[jlintott]

GG and Dewdrop, I had a couple of thoughts on repentance. I found an interesting definition of the word "repentance" from the Complete Jewish Bible. ... The Hebrew word is t'shu-vah -- literally, "TURNING." In the context of behavior it means repentance, since the sinner who "does t'shuvah" is turning from sin to God. ( Matt. 13:15 is quoted from Isaiah 6:9-10)

"You will keep on hearing but never understand, and keep on seeing but never perceive, because the heart of this people has become dull--with their ears they barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, so as not to see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and do t'shuvah, so that I could heal them."

I love the idea of "turning to God." The word "repentance" in English can have a negative connotation for some people. But this passage clearly tells us what the fruit of "non-repentance" is.

GG, I know that you are interested in the Native people of Hawaii. I wanted to tell you about something that happened here in Canada in the political process that was quite powerful and fits in beautifully with our discussion of repentance. This past month the Prime Minister of Canada, Steven Harper, stood up in the House of Commons in Ottawa (the nation's capitol) and publically apologized to Canada's aboriginal people. Many aboriginal children in Canada were removed from their families and put into residential schools. This took place from the 1880's up until the 1960's. The fruit of this "social experiment" was devestating to Canada's native peoples.

The action of a public apology by the Canadian Prime Minister was very moving for many people here in Canada, both native and non-native. Yes, repentance is a very powerful thing.

My own grandfather was "caught, and punished" for leaving the missionary school during Xmas. He tried to walk the 40 miles back home to see mom and dad. His age was about 11. The place was Colville, Washington. His grandfather's name was Joseph.

These US mandated schools helped break the back of many tribes. No wonder poverty, substance abuse, suicide,etc are still so prevalent among natives. Hope is in process, though.

=JL

[themissinglink]

GG and Dewdrop, I had a couple of thoughts on repentance.

I love the idea of "turning to God." The word "repentance" in English can have a negative connotation for some people. But this passage clearly tells us what the fruit of "non-repentance" is.

GG, I know that you are interested in the Native people of Hawaii. I wanted to tell you about something that happened here in Canada in the political process that was quite powerful and fits in beautifully with our discussion of repentance. This past month the Prime Minister of Canada, Steven Harper, stood up in the House of Commons in Ottawa (the nation's capitol) and publically apologized to Canada's aboriginal people. Many aboriginal children in Canada were removed from their families and put into residential schools. This took place from the 1880's up until the 1960's. The fruit of this "social experiment" was devestating to Canada's native peoples.

The action of a public apology by the Canadian Prime Minister was very moving for many people here in Canada, both native and non-native. Yes, repentance is a very powerful thing.



Yes, that is what I received in understanding...... and what a perfect demonstration of "turning around" ! For every season......turn, turn, turn.........

I was aware Canada indigenous were experiencing a breakthrough, thank you for detailing it. A dear friend of mine who is very kanaka and very much a man of God, meets with the arrow keepers on a regular basis and it is quite outstanding how the Spirit of God is preparing them for their finest hour, and that, absolutely in the fruit of forgiveness, will be---as it unfolds--- a demonstration of the Glory of God in humility becoming the preserving salt of Turtle Island itself! A refuge and a haven in the storm to come...... we are surely in the Greatest Unfolding of all time, and NOTHING has been in vain, if we TURN again! ~Link

[dew_drop]

Dear Daikon/Winterland/and all,

Just touching base tonight but must get some rest- so I can go to work again tomorrow.

Yes, I believe that a heart that is forgiving - a heart that is ready to forgive, is as you say, is a state of heart.

I looked up the meaning of the word used in the Lord's prayer - forgive us our "debts" as we forgive our "debtors". ( Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) Matt.6:12
The word debt & debtors - is used in this Scripture.
--------

The word trespass is used in Luke 17:3
Be on your guard! If thy brother trespass against thee,
meaning (to miss the mark so as not to share in the prize)
rebuke him, if he returns to you saying I repent, forgive Him. Luke 17:3

In the above Scripture - A responsibility was given by the Lord to His disciples.

We must be careful - because of the Lord. Because of the Father - in giving His only begotten Son, we must be careful to honor both the Father & the Son in Forgiving
one another.

Winterland, I think all of us should do an in depth search, to seek the Lord so that we might understand clearly what He means in what He has spoken concerning repentance & the forgiveness of sin, debt, & trespasses.

Yes, Turning of hearts toward the Lord is what we want (t'shu-vah) - so that our brethren will not miss out in sharing in the prize.

There is much in depth searching we have need to do, so that we ourselves do not miss the mark, so that we ourselves enter into keeping & abiding in His Word, which is the Word of the Father.

He breathed on His disciples and said those whose sins you retain shall be retained & those who sins you forgive shall be forgiven.

There is much more to forgiving one another - than meets the eye.

Any comments?

Bed time for me! (you'll have to look up chapter & verse on the last one)

Love all of you,
Sherry

[winterland]

Jlintott, Was your great-great grand father THE Chief Joseph? Anyone that grew up in Washington, Idaho or Montana especially would be familiar with the story of Chief Joseph. Amazing! Anything else you'd like to share about your family history? A very sad story about your grandfather's experience in the residential schools.

GG, I knew you would like the story about Canada. There are some really good things happening with the native people.

Dewdrop, a lot to meditate on. I like what you say about not "missing the mark." We want our hearts to be right on target.

[jlintott]

[QUOTE=winterland;354701]Jlintott, Was your great-great grand father THE Chief Joseph? Anyone that grew up in Washington, Idaho or Montana especially would be familiar with the story of Chief Joseph.

Winterland- Yup. I have been told that my mother was a decendant of Chief Joseph.

She grew up on the res near Nespelem in the Okanogan area east of the cascade mountains. This would be in northeastern Wahington State. A hot/cold/dry area. Some of it is beautiful, though. Colville Reservation.

A lot of things happened to many indigenous peoples which have been heartbreaking. The societal isolation of removing children from their parents, then sending them to christian schools to be indoctrinated was pretty bad. This went on for generations, and is why many were cut-off from their own traditions. Alot of shame was heaped on these children after the population was reduced by sickness and genocide. Alot of other stuff happened too. Much has never been spoken of. Swept under the carpet (so to speak).

My mother made me promise (with many tears) to tell no one of our heritage. Such was the result of prejudice not so long ago. (You would not expect this of a blood relative of Joseph, would you?)

I do speak, however.
It is my burden to bear, not hers. I have broken my word to her, but then again, she has died.

Winterland, here is a family story for you:
My grandfather went to prison (circa 1930) for killing a range steer which was to be used to feed his family one winter during the great depression. 4 years incarcerated. That was the end of that family.
His wife sold everything, and left the ranch ASAP. Grandma left her son with an aunt, but took my mom. Soon enough, she crashed the car they had bought. (she was a white woman). The end of the story is kind of vague. But, life is sometimes vague too. Grandma loved her pain killers, though!

Lots of other stuff happened back in the day. Rape. Murder. Untill the mid 1920's, Indians were not allowed to prosecute white folk. So guess what went on?

Indians got so messed-up that many still have only one oar in the water.

I sense things are starting to turn around somehow. I hope so.

-JL

[themissinglink]

Dear Daikon/Winterland/and all,

Just touching base tonight but must get some rest- so I can go to work again tomorrow.

Yes, I believe that a heart that is forgiving - a heart that is ready to forgive, is as you say, is a state of heart.

I looked up the meaning of the word used in the Lord's prayer - forgive us our "debts" as we forgive our "debtors". ( Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) Matt.6:12
The word debt & debtors - is used in this Scripture.
--------

The word trespass is used in Luke 17:3
Be on your guard! If thy brother trespass against thee,
meaning (to miss the mark so as not to share in the prize)
rebuke him, if he returns to you saying I repent, forgive Him. Luke 17:3

In the above Scripture - A responsibility was given by the Lord to His disciples.

We must be careful - because of the Lord. Because of the Father - in giving His only begotten Son, we must be careful to honor both the Father & the Son in Forgiving
one another.

Winterland, I think all of us should do an in depth search, to seek the Lord so that we might understand clearly what He means in what He has spoken concerning repentance & the forgiveness of sin, debt, & trespasses.

Yes, Turning of hearts toward the Lord is what we want (t'shu-vah) - so that our brethren will not miss out in sharing in the prize.

There is much in depth searching we have need to do, so that we ourselves do not miss the mark, so that we ourselves enter into keeping & abiding in His Word, which is the Word of the Father.

He breathed on His disciples and said those whose sins you retain shall be retained & those who sins you forgive shall be forgiven.

There is much more to forgiving one another - than meets the eye.

Any comments?

Bed time for me! (you'll have to look up chapter & verse on the last one)

Love all of you,
Sherry


This is the emphasis of His Spirit as has been impacting myself and those standing before the Lord with me. No restoration without repentence is also a very serious principle. Exonerating is the same as finding guilty.....both equally "judging" your brother, which only the Lord Himself can do accurately. We must keep our hands clean, or "our side of the street" in some circles! Absolom turned to a bitter and scheming enemy to the one who loved him most by being "excused" and restored without true and fruitful repentence with the Lord being accomplished. It is an inside job.

Our forgiving hearts keep ourselves blameless before God, but overstepping our boundaries puts us in the same category as the enemy of our souls, who overstepped his before the throne of God, implementing the whole crap shoot! Carefully, we make haste slowly, contending for Him to search us and remove every block, until the enemy TRULY will find no point of contact in us, and immunity will be the gracious bough our atmosphere will be to other broken hearts looking for His shelter.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, and how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation. I consider it a 24/7 challenge to work out my OWN salvation with fear and trembling, and even more as we see the time of sorrows approaching, for a man to be found a hiding place, we must first find ourselves utterly surrendered and abiding in the Palm of His hand. The leading of the Lord is the place of safety, and we must find that our abiding place for our sakes as well as those we will house in protection.

The Hour is late, but the Glory of God is also upon us as we lay hold of Him for that which He first laid hold upon us. He must do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, yet our gazing intently (agonanza, right?!) is our part in it, and that by the Grace so liberally granted to us, not to be squandered in a Day that insists on redeeming each precious and valuable moment. The Christ in my heart salutes the Christ in all of you, my beloved brethren. MB

[themissinglink]

Jlintott, Was your great-great grand father THE Chief Joseph? Anyone that grew up in Washington, Idaho or Montana especially would be familiar with the story of Chief Joseph. Amazing! Anything else you'd like to share about your family history? A very sad story about your grandfather's experience in the residential schools.

GG, I knew you would like the story about Canada. There are some really good things happening with the native people.

Dewdrop, a lot to meditate on. I like what you say about not "missing the mark." We want our hearts to be right on target.

Yes, I remember "missing the mark" being a definition of sin, and anything that is not done in faith.......... once and forever delivered to the saints! Jude's admonitions are surely upon us for this hour!

[themissinglink]

[QUOTE=winterland;354701]Jlintott, Was your great-great grand father THE Chief Joseph? Anyone that grew up in Washington, Idaho or Montana especially would be familiar with the story of Chief Joseph.

Winterland- Yup. I have been told that my mother was a decendant of Chief Joseph.

She grew up on the res near Nespelem in the Okanogan area east of the cascade mountains. This would be in northeastern Wahington State. A hot/cold/dry area. Some of it is beautiful, though. Colville Reservation.

A lot of things happened to many indigenous peoples which have been heartbreaking. The societal isolation of removing children from their parents, then sending them to christian schools to be indoctrinated was pretty bad. This went on for generations, and is why many were cut-off from their own traditions. Alot of shame was heaped on these children after the population was reduced by sickness and genocide. Alot of other stuff happened too. Much has never been spoken of. Swept under the carpet (so to speak).

My mother made me promise (with many tears) to tell no one of our heritage. Such was the result of prejudice not so long ago. (You would not expect this of a blood relative of Joseph, would you?)

I do speak, however.
It is my burden to bear, not hers. I have broken my word to her, but then again, she has died.

Winterland, here is a family story for you:
My grandfather went to prison (circa 1930) for killing a range steer which was to be used to feed his family one winter during the great depression. 4 years incarcerated. That was the end of that family.
His wife sold everything, and left the ranch ASAP. Grandma left her son with an aunt, but took my mom. Soon enough, she crashed the car they had bought. (she was a white woman). The end of the story is kind of vague. But, life is sometimes vague too. Grandma loved her pain killers, though!

Lots of other stuff happened back in the day. Rape. Murder. Untill the mid 1920's, Indians were not allowed to prosecute white folk. So guess what went on?

Indians got so messed-up that many still have only one oar in the water.

I sense things are starting to turn around somehow. I hope so.

-JL


Wow! and how profoundly awesome. What a SET UP@@@@!!!!! Your humor, you willingness, your openess, and the strategy of this peculiar gathering of Heart! I am so thrilled and overwhelmed with the Intensity and and spectacular Intention of God unto us all "on this thin raft!"

And doubt not, you will see the Glorious Turn Around with your own eyes, in the Land of the Living!!! He has impregnated our hearts with an irrevocable Hope and Holy Seed that will bring forth that for which it was intended! The Strategy of His Lovingkindness is beginning to Unfold, and will NOT be stopped. We surrender the roadblocks of our hearts with such immeasurable gratitude and Divinely instilled Expectation! Mahalo JL~ Love gg

[themissinglink]

JL- Hanalei, who's letter to the churches I previously posted, has just returned again, as I have mentioned, with more supernatural covenants the Lord Himself is orchestrating with 1st Nations in restoring the cultural dignity as the Lord claims it unto Himself in disseminating the great damage the christian religion has done to MANY indigenous in His Name. The Lord Himself will unwrap the damage with the brightness of His Coming unto and through them. I just wanted to footnote my exuberance so that it didn't seemed flippant or out of context with the deep grieving and travail you carry. You are pregnant with Promise, and there will be NO MORE abortion, as we humble ourselves together between the Porch and the Altar. For such a Time as this were we prepared and preserved, and we are just waking up to the size of His Faithfulness in every step that has been ordered bringing us to this point. The Mysteries will be unveiled before our eyes with awe and wonder.......as the only Reasonable Conclusion in Poetic Justice.

It is supernatural AKAMAI, as the Hawaiians call it.....which is "common sense"! Deep cries to deep, and it is difficult to utter. I have much to share and would love to send you a couple of amazing books just written pertaining specifically with cultural restoration, both in Hawaii, and unto the earth.....but flowing in tandem with the kanakas in prison and the 1st Nations. Let me know if you would like them. ~Link

[winterland]

I just read Matt 4 and vs 16 "popped" out at me...."The people who sat (dwelt enveloped) in darkness have seen a great Light, and for those who sat in the land and shadow of death Light has dawned." from the amplified version

[themissinglink]

I just read Matt 4 and vs 16 "popped" out at me...."The people who sat (dwelt enveloped) in darkness have seen a great Light, and for those who sat in the land and shadow of death Light has dawned." from the amplified version

Lovely......!

[winterland]

Jlintott, I grew up on the "wet" side of Washington state but I've been through that NE corner lots of times. A few years ago our family was driving through Montana and we stopped at the state historic site/interpretive center where Chief Joseph's journey towards Canada ended. Walking through the site of the Indian camp and the battle is much different than just reading about Chief Joseph in a history book. Have you ever been there?

Thank you for everything you have shared. I read something once: Joy shared causes it to increase, sorrow shared causes it to decrease.

[winterland]

Spaceman here:

JL:

From what I've read of Chief Joseph, he was a true shepherd of his people, and a brilliant military strategist. He cared very deeply for his people, especially the little people, and went to great lengths to help and protect them. He confounded the US army for many months as the army tried in vain to track his group.

I think it would be a great honor to have someone like him in my family.

[winterland]

Now I am sure that everyone reading this site has looked up Chief Joseph on Wikipedia. If you haven't done this yet, the following is a quote from Wikipedia of a discussion between Chief Joseph and a U.S. army general.

"Joseph finished his address to the general which focused on human equality, by expressing his "[disbelief that] " the great Spirit Chief gave one kind of men the right to tell another kind of men what they must do."

It seems that this speech didn't go over too well with the general.

This speech wouldn't go over too well in the Walk either.

[jlintott]

Winterland said:
I grew up on the "wet" side of Washington state but I've been through that NE corner lots of times. A few years ago our family was driving through Montana and we stopped at the state historic site/interpretive center where Chief Joseph's journey towards Canada ended.


Hi Winterland:

I never went there; was it really 30 miles from Canada (and sanctuary)? It may have been the end of a long, hard battle. It was also the beginning of an exile, and a "long, hungry march" to Oklahoma.
Thank you for mentioning the saga of the Nez Perce. It is for sure an interesting one.

It is so strange. I am only a small percentage native american. But, I can feel the indian side more than you might think seems reasonable. It is like the "lookers" are watching me. I don't think it is necessarily a demonic thing, as much as an intuitive thing. I am not dominated, nor obsessed by this. But, there it is.

I believe that things are transfered more in spirit than by either genetica, or by our environment. Past occurances, both good, and bad do leave an indelible mark.

This is why we continue to "set ourselves up" for the same sort of scenario, or situation in our own personal lives over, and over. Some things keep happening until they get addressed, and resolved. Sometimes for generations.

Nothing really gets swept under the carpet for long.

Quite obviously, whole nations also exhibit this "repetition of spirit", when they continue to fight the same old feud with the same old neighbors. Often for seemingly new, and different reasons.

Also, this is why the sowing of seed is so important. If one is to reap a harvest. The same rules apply on the positive side too. It is a faith thing to tend a crop, and requires some patient waiting too. But, a harvest requires it.

Getting to where one is able to be healed from past wounds requires a little time, some effort, some love, some salve, some clean air, and some prayer.

Healing should be a common, and continuous thing. Covering up, or ignoring wounds should not be our first line of defense. Walking around wounded is no fun.

Jesus's act of being the sin offering provided the route to be healed, set-free, and alot more.
Isn't that what the blood of the lamb was all about?

Jesus is still knocking at the door of our heart.
The problem there seems to be our attaching so many of our own (personal,cultural,etc.) things to create a conditional response to that opening of the door.. Other forces jump in there to muck-up our faith as well (ya gotta do this, or believe that). So we convincingly look to a belief system instead of the author of our faith.

We open the door,the Lord graciously enters our life. But it is tough, because we are pulling a trainload full to the brim with conditioning, and other trinkets.

I think it is time to open the door, and just hang out with him a some. Get him a little wiggle-room in there!

It's a spirit thing.


Jesus was walking on the water one night.
Those "Fisherman" were having a rough night out there trying to "make it pay".

No luck so far, Just alot of hard work, and loss of sleep.
Dang!

(I can understand their frustration in following Jesus all over the country, and all the while not having much control over their own situations). No regular job, no security. So, they take on a job, working the graveyard shift (probably the owner of that boat used it during the daytime, and let those "disciples" use it at night). Anyway, they must have figured on leaving days free for "ministering to the Lord" A very frustrating picture-right? Especially when not catching any fish!

Jesus strolls up, and says: hey you guys: "try the other side of the boat".

Was that the Lord? Out there a-strolling on the waves? Out here? It doesn't seem real.

So anyway,,, they do it,,, and catch a full net of pescados.


Sometimes the answer to our worriesome, prayers is not really that far away.



-JL

[dew_drop]

Jintott, & all, great Story, & very interesting!

My great grandfather was a Full blooded Mohican Indian who fell in love with & married English blue blood, my great great great Xs? grand mother was Mary Queen of Scotts.(she was beheaded.)

It is written in the history books that my great grandfather , husband of my great grandmother, during the civil war, carried his captain to safety in battle.

My grandmother who was dark haired, dark skinned & dark eyed gave birth to a blue eyed blond son, my dad. My grandmother stood in the bread lines on the reservation with a white child her own offspring. She lived in a time when a squaw, was seen as no more than a dog. She once worked in a carnival with snakes, which took a toll on her heart, was given anti - venom for times she was bitten on the job. This is the kind of job that she found available to her.

The last of the Mohicans - My dad was born in Orion Michigan.

I also think as you wrote that certain things are passed on from generation to generation. Things to be thankful for and things we have need to over come. I can tell you that when the Lord led me to Grace Chapel of Southgate that I knew nothing about relationships, or life. But in hearing the Word, I was given an anchor and hope and more than a reason to live, which I needed.

As a child at the age of 4 years I began seeking the Lord, not being born into a family that went to church, I had heard of Him and believed, so I began looking for Him. I found Him "written" on a pencil. A Scripture that some one who could read, I asked them to read what was written and I believed what was written so that when I approached God at the age of 8 years - still not going to church, but believing Him on only 1 thing that I had heard Him say in this Scripture , I asked and He answered and I received a token of the Spirit with out the aid of man - 10 years later when I heard John speaking the Word , John from the pulpit explained many things that I had experienced so that now I understood after having experienced these things , what I had experienced was real and I saw that it was so.

So what I am saying I guess is The Lord has always been with us - no matter where we were, because I found Him without attending a church or being apart of a church. Actually having gone to a church (one time by myself,) at the age of 4 years old, taking with me my little sister who was age 3 , is where I got the pencil.

Oh happy Day.

Sherry

[themissinglink]

This Earth is Sacred

The following letter was written in 1855 by Chief Sealth of the Duwamish Tribe in the state of Washington. It was sent to President Franklin Pierce in response to the proposed purchase of the tribe's land. It is reprinted with permission from Environmental Action.

The Great Chief in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land. The Great Chief also sends us words of friendship and good will. This is kind of him, since we know he has little need of our friendship in return. But we will consider your offer, for we know if we do not so, the white man may come with guns and take our land. What Chief Sealth says, the Great Chief in Washington can count on as truly as our white brothers can count on the return of the seasons. My words are like the stars-they do not set.

How can you buy or sell the sky-the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us. Yet we do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water. How can you buy them from us? We will decide in our time. Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people.

We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of the land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs. The earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he moves on. He leaves his fathers' graves, and his children's birthright is forgotten. The sight of your cities pains the eyes of the redman. But perhaps it is because the redman is a savage and does not understand . . .

There is no quiet place in the white man's cities. No place to hear the leaves of spring or the rustle of insect's wings. But perhaps because I am a savage and do not understand-the clatter only seems to insult the ears. And what is there to life if a man cannot hear the lovely cry of a whippoorwill or the arguments of the frogs around a pond at night? The Indian prefers the soft sound of the wind darting over the face of the pond, and the smell of the wind itself cleansed by a mid-day rain, or scented with a pinon pine. The air is precious to the redman. For all things share the same breath-the beasts, the trees, the man. The white man does not seem to notice the air he breathes. Like a man dying for many days, he is numb to the stench.

If I decide to accept, I will make one condition The white man must treat the beasts of this land as his brothers. I am a savage and I do not understand any other way. I have seen a thousand rotting buffaloes on the prairies left by the white man who shot them from a passing train. I am a savage and I do not understand how the smoking iron horse can be more important than the buffalo that we kill only to stay alive. What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit, for whatever happens to the beast also happens to man. All things are connected. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth.

Our children have seen their fathers humbled in defeat. Our warriors have felt shame. And after defeat, they turn their days in idleness and contaminate their bodies with sweet food and strong drink. It matters little where we pass the rest of our days- they are not many. A few more hours, a few more winters, and none of the children of the great tribes that once lived on this earth, or that roamed in small bands in the woods, will be left to mourn the graves of a people once as powerful and hopeful as yours.

One thing we know which the white man may one day discover. Our God is the same God. You may think now that you own him as you wish to own our land. But you cannot. He is the Body of man. And his compassion is equal for the redman and the white. This earth is precious to him. And to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator. The whites, too, shall pass-perhaps sooner than other tribes. Continue to contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste. When the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses all tamed, the secret corners of the forest heavy with the scent of many men, and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires, where is the thicket? Gone. Where is the eagle? Gone. And what is it to say goodby to the swift and the hunt, the end of living and the beginning of survival.

We might understand if we knew what it was that the white man dreams, what hopes he describes to his children on long winter nights, what visions he burns into their minds, so they will wish for tomorrow. But we are savages. The white man's dreams are hidden from us. And because they are hidden, we will go our own way. If we agree, it will be to secure your reservation you have promised. There perhaps we may live out our brief days as we wish. When the last redman has vanished from the earth, and the memory is only the shadow of a cloud moving across the prairie, these shores and forest will still hold the spirits of my people, for they love this earth as the newborn loves its mother's heartbeat. If we sell you our land, love it as we've loved it. Care for it, as we've cared for it. Hold in your mind the memory of the land, as it is when you take it. And with all your strength, with all your might, and with all your heart-preserve it for your children, and love it as God loves us all. One thing we know-our God is the same. This earth is precious to him. Even the white man cannot be exempt from the common destiny.

[themissinglink]

Winterland said:


It is so strange. I am only a small percentage native american. But, I can feel the indian side more than you might think seems reasonable. It is like the "lookers" are watching me. I don't think it is necessarily a demonic thing, as much as an intuitive thing. I am not dominated, nor obsessed by this. But, there it is.

I believe that things are transfered more in spirit than by either genetica, or by our environment. Past occurances, both good, and bad do leave an indelible mark.


-JL

Jerry, my husband, was one quarter blackfoot. I think it makes a very large impact.......to the good. The Hawaiians totally sense the carrying of the destiny of their "kapuna" or ancestors, and it is almost a walking out the Cloud's destiny by finishing the course. I think this is where culture becomes something precious to the Lord when types and shadows find their way into the Sunshine of His Undiluted Love.....every tribe and nation indicates the flower garden will be in glorious array at the throne of the Father, multi-dimensional and faceted varietals of His fullness, the 1000 Faces of God amply framed.

Aloha actually means "alo" from behind, like the back of a leaf, or the spine.....and the ha is the breath of Life....so you exchange the breath of Life facing each other, and the kapuna stand behind, like a spine holding all your generations saluting the others generations, so a large ohana is participating in the protocol with a honi, which is both foreheads together, breathing in each others' entire geneology and breathing out in oneness. A beautiful thing. Aloha~ Link

[dew_drop]

A little more history during this 4th of July,

Here is an area I would like to make the Congregation, the people aware of, something I realised over the years.

Many of us who were involved as members of the L.W. and I believe many who remain involved today live their lives giving their time & their finances, the substance of their lives , not thinking about themselves, their futures or the futures of their own children.

So they do not build for themselves or their children in life and those who run the Church have made no commitment to the Congregation, to provide for them in return for the sacrifice they are making by putting the "business" of the Church first as the center and drive of & for their lives.

Now this O.K. If you know that you must be responsible for the decision you are making to give your life with the understanding you have no right to expect anything in return. That those who are using your lives, have one priority and that is to build & to maintain what they are building, believing this is the will of the Lord but do take notice that they make a provision for them selves and for their own children while they are using you and your finances, as they build.

When John was taking up offerings to build Shiloh, John told us that he wanted to build a convalescent home at Shiloh. John wanted our Senior brothers and sisters to be able to live out the rest of their lives with dignity. He wanted the elderly among us who had need of care, to be cared for , served and attended to by our own loving hands.

After John died the first thing to be built at Shiloh instead of a convalescent home was an amphitheatre where the shows for the 4th of July now are put on yearly for the community by the members of the church.

Now I am not saying that there is anything wrong with building an amphitheater. Only that you should take note: that the priority of the new leadership is not the same kind of priority that the original founder John Stevens had - when he asked the congregation to give their money for the vision he had for Shiloh - that Shiloh was to be as a ministry to the people.

In the long run a city of refuge and a provision to serve and meet the needs of the people who were giving their money for laying a foundation for what Shiloh was to be.

John also said, in storing our bread, it was not just for our selves, we would share our bread with those who were hungry, during difficult times.

Just some things to consider and to look to the Lord about,

Love,
Sherry

[itdoesntmatter]

this goes back to the discussion we had before. i know i need the people in the church, but they don't seem to know they need us, if were going to be truthful. i know they say they do but they really don't.

how can they reach out to the rest of the world if they treat their own family like crap. i'm not perfect and i realize that, but there is only one who is perfect and that is God.

we didn't celebrate christmas either, but the year john died the christmas truck was born. our calling is greater than that.

[mike_j]

That those who are using your lives, have one priority and that is to build & to maintain what they are building, believing this is the will of the Lord but do take notice that they make a provision for them selves and for their own children while they are using you and your finances, as they build.


Sherry

No matter how they explain it (the upward flow, seeking first the kingdom etc.), it still smells of exploitation to me. If the leadership is in a substantially better economic place than the congregation, and is still pushing sacrifice...that benefits them personally...it is unethical, to say the least. At least that's the way I see it.
Now if I find out the Hargraves are ministering for free--and are completely transparent about their own financial standing to the congregation--than I'll change my tune. I can be flexible that way ;)
BTW, Sherry--before I left I was very close to Bob, JJ and Jimmy. I know I'm not supposed to call any one good...but at the time I felt each one of them had good hearts.
If the use of the word 'good' offends anyone, I'll apologize in a subsequent post.


'There is no one good except....uh, Peter--would you get the list for me? Thanks'
(a gospel yet to be discovered)

[themissinglink]

Yes, and sadly, the first person to be tucked away in a retirement home, was dearest Bess Clealand, Marilyn's own mother. Hearing that, broke my heart as she certainly would have been protected and ministered to in place, even as John made sure Sister Swinger had care to the very end. Much was abandoned of his wishes.

I was just listening to "What is a Broken spirit" this morning.....that awesome old classic...and he actually specifically said if Shiloh becomes a big name for itself, abandoning its humble purpose, let it also be abandoned. (very paraphrased.)

Interesting it almost has a circus reputation on the 4th. May God restore us all, as we weep between the porch and the altar.

[themissinglink]

Mike, remember "A line is drawn" and "Your house is on fire!" ?

the very split at God's direction to him, was ousting the "country club" level of living that the leadership had above the level of the little people sacrificing. He did not even spare his own family which brought horrendous backwash, instead of humble pursuit of revelation. That principle has been abandoned mightily(if it was ever truly embraced aside from being in his direct supervision and presence. (*I truly remember and believe Bob McClane understood and shared John's heart on this matter, and because of covenant faith he shared on that point, was led to slaughter unexpectedly, yet willingly, though overtaken in perplexity and grief,-- without the acute sorrowful perception John took to the grave as John resignedly fulfilled his part and left the marker of his faith in the Lord's Hands, for the 1000 sons he bargained for.) Nonetheless, a beach head has been purchased by faith, for the outcome of this tearstained story of ours.

May none of it, grant it Lord to your Glory, be in vain!

John dwelt happily in "the cracker box" or the "taco shell" etc. This is why we trusted him and it let little people be drawn to him as a peer AND a father. Particularly the Hawaiians who trusted him, and now trust almost NO one. The irony of purchasing a literal "country club" to revamp for the elite, is a bit troublesome to me, in that the anointing on Grace Chapel Honolulu, which is now in a poorer section of town, WHERE WE SHOULD be found----even as Grace Chapel bordering Watts, was divinely appointed, and built by his own hands, was abandoned for more lofty endeavors.

Haiku, which was my spiritual birthplace in 1969.... was the center of battle, sitting on the channels of unresolved Hawaiian agony and travail, was precisely where the Lord confirmed He wanted the sons to grow until overcoming, and subduing all disturbance to Him...sealing their calling with the fruit of their dealings and travail..... has again been abandoned -with the mission yet to be accomplished- for the country club level of peaceful logistics.... and left in the hands of an ashramic type restaurant. Yikes. I had been in an ashram at that time in 1969, that literally ousted myself at my revelation of the Lord, and the next day, had blood literally on their mailbox (which if you don't know history of the area, Menehune-----believe it or not.......used to do to roust people particularly on Nahiku side. The old kapuna were very familiar, and chuckled when someone was scared off their turf by the tormenting of their "gatekeepers"! Stones too, they used to stack around errant cars overnight, trapping their unhappy trespassers.)

They have long since stopped this particular style, having bowed their knee to the Lordship of Christ, and participate in the travail for their Islands and people....and whether anyone wants to believe it or not, John, in his many encounters with them, and long talks with the King...I believe was the escort God granted to lead them to the Lord, as the first ranks of elementals to establish their allegiance to the King. At that time, John always went first to Iao Valley to pray, and see his friends. Iao is the most sacred place in the Pacific Ring, well known fact to all indigenous, as far as New Zealand. May sound foolish, but then.....

Anyway, it was the King who mentioned to John where one could build and be undisturbed. Now I know Marilyn was privvy to John's conversations, though she could not perceive them herself. Larry Makuakane and Larry Cotton were able to witness them.
anyway.....the Lord confirmed to John to leave the school of prophets EXACTLY as He had directed, to "teeth" on and breakthrough on the disturbed channel.

I believe the lines of least resistance were taken per that old information, and the "estate" was built at that site, while the never subdued assignment was abandoned for their shortness of supplies and lack of spiritual eyes.

Anyway, the ashram closed forever, and was actually dismantled. While I found John's voice in a "box" at the empty Haiku chapel, which was under the sole care of a caretaker, Iva Chizek, who though not part of the Walk, was a dear spirit, and received the tapes as a privilege for her labor and care that kept the "beasts of the field" away--until such time as the Lord directed John to commission residency and activity in that beloved chapel.

So the first time I heard John, was a new tape that was playing when she answered the door, and it was the 1969 Tabernacles Word! As soon as I heard him, the Lord quickened my destiny to me immediately, and I got to live in the crackerbox back of the sanctuary for numerous months, weeping over the old hymnals and their lyrics which I had never imagined in my very heathen and unchristian upbringing. It was enchanted. Fasting and hearing the Word, and singing/weeping the hymns until the Lord indicated the next step. I guess that is why it brought great sorrow to see the abandonment of that post as well, before its hour of fulfillment. and the irony of an ashram taking it over, no matter HOW politically correct everyone wants to be!

Needless to say, the Hawaiians are certainly not bee-lining to the Estate! (now, the cracker box, on the other hand...... and the locals in Oahu as well, that taught John to surf and made him a board in the early days.........that is a different story, --and well lets just say, John is no longer in charge of their decisions---nor has a double-portion of his heart been found yet formed. How great an Inheritance must be restored, between the porch and the Altar......... Aloha Nui Loa~ Link

(with Faith for restoration of the lost sons, at any cost.)

[dew_drop]

Originally Posted by mike
(formerly changedagain & Lamp from Ikea)

BTW, Sherry--before I left I was very close to Bob, JJ and Jimmy.I know I'm not supposed to call any one good...but at the time I felt each one of them had good hearts.
-------------------------------------------------

Dear Mike,
If you are the Mike who I think you are, I want to personally Thank both you and your wife L. for helping my family, during some very difficulty times. So much was happening to us for such a long period of time. You watched our children for a season, for free after school, until we could pick them up after work. I don't know if it was before or after Bob & I separated. We separated in 1987. I also remember you took care of our dog, Pete after Bob died, ole Pete finally ended up at my dad's and lived happily, to be 20 years old.

The Trists also watched our children for free, you can't begin to imagine how much this helped us, those who carried us, with out cost, when we had no money to pay

because from November of 1982 & until 1984. I supported our family of 6 (4 children) by myself working 6 & 7 nights a week, as a waitress, and helping Bob sell all of the companies equipment, inventories & vehicles, during the day and after we had sold all the estate 1 year later ( October of 1983) I continued working nights to support us, as we had no income outside of me working and then during the day I worked with Bob trying to help him get the business he had inherited from his dad off the ground and it wasn't until May of 1984 (6 months later) - that I stopped working my night job unable to physically continue - because I by then weighed only 85 pounds and could not continue working both day & night & care for a family also and Bob May of 1984 - Bob drew his first paycheck from the business his dad left him - we had to trust God - And the Lord provided an account that allowed us to survive, immediately the week after I quit working nights. I continued working days with Bob and he taught me about business as I worked with him.

We had put all our years, our youth, our energy and all that we were and all that we had into what we started and dedicated to the Lord & even though it was really ours, we never thought of it as ours because of the multitude of young men & women who had given themselves through the years right beside & with us for many years, living a life of sacrifice with us. Also because both old and Young prayed with us and for us in our service to the Lord and contributed in many ways to our success for the vision that we had dedicated ourselves to the Lord for, from 1968 - 1982, that which was also Bob's stewardship .

For those years we shared together, living, working & worshipping the Lord as a spiritual family, I would never trade those years for anything, for they were years of faith, of growing up together & walking together in the faith, learning & overcoming many things & they were years filled with much joy and the highlight of our life, all these people, our brothers & sisters who walked with us & shared together, their lives & their faith , in the faith.

Even after all Bob had gone thru, and even in all he was going thru, in 1984, Bob was still unhealthily & overly committed & said to me he wanted to dedicate & give the little business he had inherited - to Marilyn. I told him that John was gone, and that I believed the Lord wanted him to keep the business to support himself & his own family.

Now mind you, I still at this time had no idea what we had really been through, I was a mother & a house wife learning as I was going, when our house (figuratively speaking, was wiped out,) and in most things I did not understanding till years later, after I had time to think and remember & seek the Lord in the Scriptures for understanding & answers - would I be able to put it all together.

The Kingdom of God is likened unto throwing in your net, yyou pull it in, you keep the good fish , those fish that are edible and you throw away the bad fish, that which is not edible. If you fish long enough you will learn, overtime to recognize what is a good fish.

We extract the precious from the vile. We keep what is precious.

What we had together during those sweet years & what we "today" have is precious, we haven't lost any thing, Thru all these things, good & what we experienced in many cases bad, we have gained a closer relationship with the Lord and with any one who receives us.

With Thanksgiving,
Sherry

[jlintott]

i miss the worship the most. not necessarily the songs, which were good, but the worship when there weren't to many interuptions. i don't feel i really need a healing per se, but to see a fulfillment of the words that were spoken.

Itdoesn'tmatter:

I miss the "getting lost in worship" too. But, the words that were spoken over people in personal ministry more often than not, were never fulfilled. So, if they never come to pass, the obvious truth of the matter is that they were rooted in the imaginations of mere men.

I am trying to let the whole thing "go". I am letting God worry about it, these days.

The toughest part of letting go is just getting free of the continual, hypnotic conditioning which we were exposed to for years. Church filled our life (near full saturation).

Just like "Pavlov's Dog", we too salivate when the conditions are right. It just feels good, the familiarity of it all. I think that is what we really miss.

Even Abraham had to move on. God fulfilled God's words spoken to him only after a pretty long, and tough sojourn. I think father Abraham, and his wife Sara were not so focused on "fulfillment", when a son was finally born. Sara laughed at the idea! Infact, God asked Ab to kill the son, which Ab proceeeded to do. Fulfillment was not the big thing.

Only the intervention of God will bring a thing to pass. (he "saved Ab's son, and still provided an offering).

If any of that personal ministry stuff we were fed comes to pass, it will not happen because we are kicking, and screaming intercession when we don't see it!

All the best "antiques" go thru a long period of being discarded. Then, one day, someone cleans out the attic, and either throws that trash out entirely, or says "wow" check this beautiful item out!

It's a sifting process. Let it continue.

-JL

[themissinglink]

We extract the precious from the vile. We keep what is precious.

What we had together during those sweet years & what we "today" have is precious, we haven't lost any thing, Thru all these things, good & what we experienced in many cases bad, we have gained a closer relationship with the Lord and with any one who receives us.

With Thanksgiving,
Sherry

Yes, Dearest Dew Drop:

When everything that can be shaken, has been shaken, He receives in us a Kingdom that cannot be shaken, even His fair jewels, refined in the Fire and sifted as wheat, --- heaped up, shaken down, a overflowing..... as He surely opens YOU---- the very window of Heaven and pours forth the Overflow of His handiwork within your bosom. I love you so, dear Bride!

[themissinglink]

It's a sifting process. Let it continue.

-JL

out of the dungeons and caves, come
the Sword of the Lord, and of Gideon!

[dew_drop]

Dearest Link,

Thank you for your kind words. Made me blush.
-------------------------

Just wanted to say, the reason I talk about the things that took place is because I want those who love the Lord and who may be yet as many of us once were, ( young or old & naive in some areas of our thinking,)

I want to if possible to help, so that others do not make the same mistakes, as I did.

The Lord told us that He entrusted Himself to no man, because he knew what was in man.
He is our example!

He also said that you have no need for any man to teach you, but the Holy Spirit when He comes will lead you into all the truth.

So by this and many other Scriptures that are available to us that reveal His Will for us, we are able to see that we are not to look to man as being the source of Truth , We are to seek God and look to Him concerning any matter that we have question concerning. We are to look to Him, & our trust & our confidence is to be in Him and in what He tell us. He is our Father, our Spiritual Father.

We were trusting & wide open with one another. I can look back & see (in light of the Scriptures) where - when you take this too far, and don't think for yourself and don't weigh what you are being told, or if you don't examine what you are be told and see if what you are being told really lines up with the Lord's Will, revealed in the Scriptures, you are going to find yourself some where down the road in trouble.

Just like when your mom or dad tells you, " don't play with the electrical wall plugs,"

If you disobey your parents & you stick any thing in the holes that is a conductor for electricity - your experience - if you survive the jolt - will hopefully teach you, that you need to learn to pay attention to what your parents tell you. Children obey your parents, in the Lord.

How much more do we need to pay close attention to what the Lord Himself tells us?

The Lord said, No man takes My life, I lay it down & I take it up, this Commandment I received from My Father.

You see you have the right to lay down your life and you have the right to take it up when you want to, at your will. The Father does not want you do surrender your free will to any one!

This is to be between you and the Father and no man. You are to be spiritually & naturally in charge of your own life, " in the Lord."
-----------

If you have bound yourself with a vow as unto the Lord - you have access, to seek the Lord in the Scriptures
to find out how to get free of the vow you have made or how you may be released from a vow - if what you vowed is something that is against the will of the Lord.

You are able to find out what the Lord says so that you have His Word to stand on, so that you will not be tossed about to and fro - so that you are assured in your own heart that you are keeping His Word. Let each man work out his own salvation with fear & trembling.

We are to be neither sceptical nor gullible.

These things do not separate us from one another, these things center us individually in Christ so that we can have healthy relationships with one another.

Love you,
Sherry

[jlintott]

[QUOTE= You are to be spiritually & naturally in charge of your own life, " in the Lord."
-----------

If you have bound yourself with a vow as unto the Lord - you have access, to seek the Lord in the Scriptures
to find out how to get free of the vow you have made or how you may be released from a vow - if what you vowed is something that is against the will of the Lord.

You are able to find out what the Lord says so that you have His Word to stand on, so that you will not be tossed about to and fro

We are to be neither sceptical nor gullible.

Dew Drop-
I recall making vows as a group under the ministry of RD Cronquist. It felt like burning your bridges, going past the point of no return. Breaking all bonds with this world (especially our natural parents). Yeah, we couldn't ever again look back like Lot's Wife, or we would be turned into a pillar of salt(going nowhere). It felt kind of like laying a curse upon yourself if you ever strayed from the remnant, and went back to your own vomit (like a dog does).

Our little remnant kind of spun-out of it's groove. In a way, the context of our way of living back then hardly exists these days.

We used to get all worked-up then. Like, the barn,bright lights, extended halaluahs for hours!
RD stomping around, demanding greater focus, and complete submission to authority. He would say to the whole bunch "You follow me, as I follow God".

You want to talk altered states of mental confusion, and striving to please? Under those conditions, we made vows to serve God. or go down swinging!

Like true automaton zombies, we bound our own carnal thoughts, released our spirits, and ignored anything that might be contrary to the truth.

Like a whizzer locomotive, we gained speed, ignored the warning signs (like that J bend just up ahead).

High speed derailment is a very cathartic experience. AMEN?

[themissinglink]

Amen, DD:

I truly think this was why and what John indicated in the "Walk" being only an ark, to get from the shore of old order to the other shore and the need to give Way to a move of God without leaders. I don't thing the "right wing" wanted to lose the provisions financially and position-wise, and thus the dismantling that an angry John wanted to implement, was avoided at the end when he became to weak to enforce his wishes.

We all have the same Lord, to seek and allow to perfect that which He began in us, and to reveal the benefits and the sorting of the "fish" as you so well put. This is our salvation being worked out with fear and trembling..... with no scapegoating of ANYONE else. God is certainly not worried about pressures and stress forcing us deeper into Himself which has been the only purspose for every step He has led each of our lives. If He hasnt' spared Israel the severity of His strong Love bringing them to their ultimate Inheritance, why would we be so startled to think He would not spare spiritual Israel?

We are all being sifted, shaken, and tried in the Fire, that we be found readied to be a hiding place when the Fire heats up on the whole earth. It has all been Mercy.....but our "homework" (even as you have pursued yours) is required of each of us. John insisted and pointed to that though pretty much to no avail, as our immaturity was never going to stop being a freight train going for a ride, until the Lord dismantled that provision. Now we must all account for our pursuit of His Face or our lack thereof. No free rides, but plenty of deceptions and detours for those who wish to avoid The Pursuit of Him with Whom we must do. It is an amazing Architecture of Mercy and Fire, where our Inheritance is Him, and Him alone, or we have forfeited it for a mess of pottage.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God, and to neglect so Great a Salvation. It's an inside job, and the sooner we stop looking for scapegoats, the sooner we come out of the judgments of having tasted and heard, yet failing to enter in to the Relationship it was all to be an escort to. Instead, were taken captive to the vanity of our imaginations, or those of others. Who must gird up their loins before the Living God? Where Mercy triumphs over judgment, and the judgments become as honeycomb....to those who find themselves lost in His Lovingkindness when the chastenings yield fruitful repentance for all detours, unto the peaceable fruit of Righteousness.

John warned more false prophets would come out from our midst than any other move in God's doings for holding the Truth in unrighteousness in failing to discern the size of the Invitation of God to press into KNOW Him. No one else can do that for us. and once we are found there, we discover each other through the "Switchboard" of that Relationship. Therein is shoulder to shoulder, not breaking ranks, seeing eye to eye, each one knowing the Lord and no one having to advise his neighbor to Know Him for the Oneness of the mutual Arrival into the Center of His Purpose and Presence, in the Holy of Holies. May we all sit together at that Promised Banquet Table, and may we find it now! ~Aloha, Link

[dew_drop]

Jintott,

I didn't experience what you experienced in cutting loose and letting go,
when I first came to the church( 1965 ) , I would wait for 2 hours by myself in the car, peacefully while Bob visited & fellowshipped with the members after the service. I was very shy - grew up in a family that was not affectionate, so hugging and looking directly in one another's eyes & talking face to face, was unbearable for me. I wasn't against it , It just Traumatized me to have any one that close to me other than my husband & children . Took me years & a lot of steps to get to the place where I felt comfortable being hugged or hugging any one.

The people at Grace Chapel were very kind & sweet to me, Most of them were older & Bob & I were the 1st of the young people to come into the church. I felt apart of & very welcome even though I was not one to express myself outside of basic conversation.

I also did not like to show any emotion publically, I did not prophecy, or make comments, I was quiet and participated by being supportive of those who were able to freely express themselves in Public.

It took me years before I was able to lift my hands in worship during a service,
I sang with every one else & worshipped but I did not like to be the center of focus.

This is probably one of the reasons I was able to observe what was taking place & I have been gifted with a good memory.

Yes, I know what you are talking about, I see this kind of emotion and expression,
in sports, at a rodeo, even on the news, I just think that's the way human beings for the most part express themselves. You still won't find me screaming and cheering when every one is screaming during a foot ball game - I'm ok with it and I am glad they are into it and having a great time!

I hope I am not too far off from what you are trying to express. What ever troubles you about those times, did you ever stop & think there must have been something
there that you needed, maybe you just needed at that time to be apart of something,
maybe you needed to feel accepted, maybe you had need to express your self, trying to find yourself, looking for what life was really all about, maybe it kept you off the streets and out of trouble, maybe you came nearer to the Lord thru all these things, through an expression of whole heartedness, maybe you were trying to fill yourself with something worth while and that something was Love, and even if it was just a taste of something very good, you must have been receiving something that kept you near for what ever time you stayed & participated.

The lame, the halt, the needy & the blind - for the most part these were the ones who came flooding in to the church. That's who I was and where I started out. The Word that John preached, I worked at applying. Talk about insecure when I was 16, I was wearing 4 & 5 pair of Jeans to try to look normal,

I was skinny and thought I was ugly. Thru the Word, I made myself accept my self because I was being told that God loved me in a thousand ways - I had to believe Him more than all my insecurity - I had to fight the lie and tell my self the truth and I over came many things by the Word of the Lord. I over came more, when I started living for the good of others & forgot about my self. Then for the most part I had no problems - that was in the "Love Series."

I found it is the relationship I have with the Lord, that sustains me, has healed me and has made me whole and sound ( for the most part) hey no 2 people are alike, but we share a lot of things in common as human beings. We just need to be kind to one another and be thankful for the life that God has given us, and if I don't like my lot in life and if it's in my power, I will responsibly change it.

Keep on keepin on ! We will all get there!

( Yes, Link, and as you say, (paraphrased) may we all recline at His bountiful table in honor of Him!)

Love Ya,
Sherry

[dew_drop]

Dear Jintott,

My apology to you,

I re-read your comment to me and yes, the derailment you spoke of was devastating.

I spent 14 years or more recovering & trying to understand why what happened could have taken place, although my situation was probably much different than yours, I still had to deal with the same losses & confusion you experienced. I had need to sift, sort, find answers & put things in order & in perspective.

I felt in 1992 that I had to get away from the L.A. area. I tried to go on with my life. I was worn out & had to get free from all the mental stress that I was experiencing. I probably would not have survived if I had not left L.A.

I did what I had to do to break free. Breaking unhealthy bonds was the first step I had to take to get free. Then I started little by little to see the areas of my thinking that needed to change.

Next, being married to a man who was not exposed to living life as I had lived - helped me over time see how unreasonable, irrational, unhealthy & plain wrong some of the things believed by the church were.

So I had help to get back on my feet and to be able to get back into life for which I will always be thankful and grateful for this help, being exposed to what I was having to deal with outside of our life, was probably more than he was able to bear.

Again my apology for missing your point because I felt after I had replied that my answer probably pressed you against the wall because of the love you have for the Lord.

Sincerely,
Sherry

[jlintott]

Sherry-
Thank you for your kind, and heartfelt remarks.

You remember well, the hungry people who came pouring into the various LW churches. It was during the last of the 60's till the divorce of John. and Martha (more, or less).
Excuse me, but I remember God manifesting Himself in unmistakable ways. Hearts were revealed. Words were spoken that addressed things in my life nobody ever knew about. The spirit was ministering big time. A very special and important time. Amazing, really.

Excuse me, but things got really eccentric. I never really keyed in on what or why it should have happened. But, there came a time where people were behaving strangely like drones. Playing follow the leader (actually like imitate the leader). Ambitious people gained too much respect. It felt real shifty just before JRS passed away. The spirit was so mixed at that point. Like the spirits of men mixed with the manifestations of the true God. It was time to leave, and I left.

Did you ever find yourself walking along, angry at god? Asking: why did you do this? I put my trust in you, and you let me play the fool? You let me down!

Those kinds of questions haunt me, and probably a few others-to this day.

I say these things, not to gain sympathy, complain, murmur, or even an answer. I know God is not to blame.

My intention is only to point out the similarity of our various experiences in leaving LWF.

It is tough. It is disorienting. Perhaps, if we keep working on it, we can all somehow learn to trust, and believe once more (without some turkey cracking a whip behind us, thank-you).

-JL

[themissinglink]

JL- That was precisely when we knew it was time to go. After his death, this was coupled with the exiling confirmation hitting us in the butt like a doorknob!

I believe the Spirit led us out, and to sit under our juniper trees, respectively, to have the Lord interpret and instruct and convict our hearts in the Context of His Heart in all these matters through which He ordered our steps. I think it contained a strategic setup that only God can reveal and breakdown as our hearts quiet in surrender before Him. In the end, HE was the Author and only purpose and Reward in the whole journey, and we were obviously in an early leg of the Race. Leaning on His Arm, we shall complete it by His Grace, as we come to know as we're Known. I don't believe anything was wasted, if we find ourselves broken and humbled without bitterness in the Palm of His Hand. Surely more shall be revealed, and nothing hidden shall remain so as the DayStar dawns to His Fullness in our hearts.

"Darkness revealed IS Light!"

It is a privilege to sojourn together in this unique Time. Aloha~Link

[dew_drop]

Dear Jintott,
You ended your last letter to me saying,

It is tough. It is disorienting. Perhaps, if we keep working on it, we can all somehow learn to trust, and believe once more (without some turkey cracking a whip behind us, thank-you).
--------------

Dear Jintott & all,

If I were to again put my trust in man, or in men, how would this help me to believe once more, as when I first believed ?

If I put my trust in man - when I have heard that the Lord entrusted Himself to no man, because He knew what was in man.

when I also have heard that the Lord said to a man, why do you call Me good,
no one is good except God.

The Lord did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. when one related to Him as being good, He said to that one, No one is good except God.

I believe what the Lord said is the "Truth", so now after having at one time, put my trust in man and also by doing so have experienced my self - what is in man, I am convinced that the Lord is the One I should trust & believe, so that I am careful now to be careful not to put my trust in man.

Now this may seem that I am taking away hope, but I believe it is the answer, so that there is always hope.

Just a little gold nugget,
for thought.

Love,
Sherry

[themissinglink]

Aloha Sherry,

The Truth of putting your trust in no man, WAS very central in the teaching, and the requirement to pursue God for appropriate relating in the Spirit. That does NOT mean it was the perspective embraced in our mixed natures. I know without that principle, there was no Way to truly stand with one another correctly, nor to correctly discern the Body of Christ, for which reason many among us slept and became sick.

I think the lack of walking that principle out, even as you describe it so accurately in the Scriptures, found out the immaturity and areas the enemy was free to find as "points of contact". As we work out our salvation before His face, the embracing of the Cross as He reveals to us areas we must surrender....will ultimately lead to an undistracted Gaze that leaves the enemy unable to come and find anything in us to use again as point of contact.

Obsoleting the enemy is an honor that have all His saints. And the journey of our coming into the fullness of the Maturity, is the destiny within which we unfold. That is what I mean by nothing wasted as God consistently turns all things for Good in the Beauty of Holiness. Ahhhh the Mystery of His Grace. He certainly is thorough, and He certainly is not a tame Lion!

He loves us enough to escort us through His Consuming Fire, until we inherit a Kingdom that can NOT be shaken! Love, gg

[jlintott]

--------------


Dear Jintott & all,

If I were to again put my trust in man, or in men, how would this help me to believe once more, as when I first believed ?

If I put my trust in man - when I have heard that the Lord entrusted Himself to no man, because He knew what was in man.

when I also have heard that the Lord said to a man, why do you call Me good,
no one is good except God

I believe what the Lord said is the "Truth", so now after having at one time, put my trust in man and also by doing so have experienced my self - what is in man, I am convinced that the Lord is the One I should trust & believe, so that I am careful now to be careful not to put my trust in man.

Now this may seem that I am taking away hope, but I believe it is the answer, so that there is always hope.



Love,
Sherry[/QUOTE]

-Hello Everyone...

I have noticed people during my life. Here is an opinion for you to consider:


Most of the folks we meet are for the most part are trying to connect. Most of the relationships we see, (and have) are far from perfect.

There are some who seem to have it together. But, usually, those people are the ones we just don't know very well.

People try to hide. Or put on a show.

After the years go by-and the strong desires mellow out; some of us (like myself, anyway), find ourselves with just a few souls that we choose to tolerate. Dysfunctions and all, we choose to love them some.

I think if you can find someone to tolerate your real self; that is a a really big deal!
It's worth nurturing.

For better, or for worse, we are all incomplete beings by nature. And, we can't hide-out for long - because we are all kind of crippled in one way, or another; and we need each other to lean on (and to pick us up when we fall). It is our job to help our associates to keep on their feet as well.

This human love is never equal to the way God loves. At it's best, it is a reflection of that.

Often, what appears to be love is just a fakie-job. So Watch out!

But....
Trust seems to be a thing which can only be developed within the context of a relationship. With men, it should never be totally without limits. Trusting a little bit at a time seems to be about right. That way, you may find who really is trust-worthy. And, also, where their potholes are (ouch!).

Is it worth it? Well, it is definitely "risky behavior".



That said, I would really be ultra conservative when it comes to viewing any believing Christial as being a definitive "representative of God on this earth". Infact, that kind of trust is totally irresponsible.

Jesus was the only one who was a worthy rep. Even he acknowledged that God alone was good, he was not the source.

yOU PUT a 100% TRUST IN mAN, yOU GONNA gET sCHOOLED rightQUICK, buddy!

Even if God does choose to use someone, that vessel is always going to be somewhat vulnerable to his, or her own soul-nature. You know that stuff keeps growing back-right?. It is , however, the medium God usually chooses to use.
(like a painter uses his palette of colors. Or a musician, his instrument.)


I am sooo thankful... to have lived through everything I have!

It is very nice to lose some of my innocence.

Someone said : Human beings are a life support system for hope.

I say this: Mix whatever hope you have, with the wisdom you have acquired; then play your hand.

-jl

[dew_drop]

Dear Link & all,

Some things I thought about this morning after reading the new letters,

As human beings, we are to be interdependent. Not to be independent or dependent.

God makes man, then he says, is not good for man to be alone.

I'll make him some animals & then he won't be alone.

So He starts making all kinds of animals and presents them to Adam, Adam gets to name them. But among them there was not found one that was suitable for Adam.

So he puts Adam into a deep sleep takes part of Adam out of Adam and builds Adam
a woman.

But it is in the cool of the day on a regular basis, that God drops by to visit Adam and they share time together and talk to together.


A woman, a wife is a suitable helper mate for man, a man . There was no other suitable helper found.

Years ago, I looked up the root word for help mate referenced in this Scripture, and I saw that a woman (his helpmate) when a man runs out of answers and cries out to her , she turns His heart toward God. She's not the answer, God is the answer, she doesn't take God's place, That's how she perfectly helps her husband.

She knows what He is going through, she's is bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh.
But God has a special relationship with Adam, with man.

God knows about loneliness, and in the design of His creation, he makes them so they are interdependent but He has set up an order, boundaries and gives them instructions, guidelines & commandments so that they will be able to share in His fullness & goodness in life, with one another, so He Himself is All & In all.

Yes, all of His creatures great and small reach out to one another, the intimate closeness that we hunger for & are driven by , He incorporated into the design when He made Adam & the only thing that can satisfy that hunger, fill that deep space in our beings, that lonely place, is our Maker Himself. That's the place He made for Himself in us.

Love,
Sherry

[themissinglink]

--------------


Someone said : Human beings are a life support system for hope.

I say this: Mix whatever hope you have, with the wisdom you have acquired; then play your hand.

-jl

Indeed! and "you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em; know when to walk away, and know when to run!....

Love Link

[themissinglink]

Dear Link & all,

God knows about loneliness, and in the design of His creation, he makes them so they are interdependent but He has set up an order, boundaries and gives them instructions, guidelines & commandments so that they will be able to share in His fullness & goodness in life, with one another, so He Himself is All & In all.

Yes, all of His creatures great and small reach out to one another, the intimate closeness that we hunger for & are driven by , He incorporated into the design when He made Adam & the only thing that can satisfy that hunger, fill that deep space in our beings, that lonely place, is our Maker Himself. That's the place He made for Himself in us.

Love,
Sherry

For sure and proven: The Kingdom of God is Relationship and relationships! Love, gg

[bizzmoth]

Do I miss going to church? Why yes. On Friday night, I missed a service, on Sat. morning, I missed another service. On Sunday, I missed going to three services...... : )

OK, seriously, now. I thought I would really miss the worship and style of the Living Word format. Everyone used to say "you'll never find anything else like it out there. TLW has something really special". Especially the singing in the spirit. But so far, I don't miss it at all. Maybe it has so many negative feelings attached to it for me. Some folks say it is sort of like a form of self hypnosis - the droning and humming while staring at the worship leader and comtemplating how he (or she) is supposed to be "Christ in the Earth" to me.

I used to ask other church groups if they ever did singing in the spirit and some said - "Yes we tried it for a while and stopped doing it" For many churches, it is not considered "the cutting edge" of Christian worship - even though TLW wants you to believe that. Some non-TLW pastors told me "we searched the scriptures and did not find enough scriptural evidence that it was a valid form of expression - or that it should be done in a public service". Some feel it is something for the prayer closet but not congregational worship. This is what I heard from other spirit-filled churches.

But I do not miss it at all. It even surprises me quite a bit, the degree that I don't miss it. I could live the rest of my life out and never hear it again, and be perfectly content and feel totally connected to God. There are just so many other ways to touch His heart.

Of course, (as they say)... YMMV

[dew_drop]

Ephesians 6: 1&2
1: Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

2: Honor your father & mother , (which is the first commandment with a promise) That it may be well with you, & that you may live long on the earth.

------------------------------------------------------------------
I have written in many of my posts about the error of thinking that has existed about spiritual authority, & many of you have shared what you have experienced & have been through, have suffered , as a result of the thinking that was held & acted upon by the ministry.

Before I post here in this letter,

I believe if any one of us sins or has sinned in these things I am writing about, that there is forgiveness of sin thru the blood of His sacrifice, God having given His only begotten Son, and that because of this perfect sacrifice, once & for all, that in our confession of Him as Lord in bowing our knees to Him , along with our confession of our sin in repentence , that there is therefore no condemnation for any of us in Christ Jesus. Whether offendor or recipient of an offence . When we judge rightly both conserning righteousness & sin, when we judge rightly ourselves, remembering Him when we eat of His body & drink of His blood, if we judge rightly, illness, sickness, spiritual sleeping will not reign over us.

---------------------------------------------------
In Luke Chapter 2: 41-52
There is a record of Jesus as a boy at the age of 12 years old - when Jesus & His parents went to Jerusalem during the feast of Passover & after the Passover Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem & His parents were unaware of it, they thought Jesus was in the caravan , and found out He was missing after traveling a days journey. So they started looking for Him 1st among their own relatives & acquaintances & when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, & after searching for Him 3 days in Jerusalem - they found Him in the temple sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them & asking them questions.

Now it says that all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and answers.

Next it says , His mother found Him in the temple with the teachers & His mother said to Him, why have you treated us this way? Behold your father & I have been anxiously looking for you.

And He said to them, Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father house?

And His parents did not understand this statement He had made to them. And He went down with them & came to Nazareth, and He continued in subjection to them, and His mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom & stature, & in favor with God and men.

---------------------

I think at the age of 12 years - young boys - were recognized as coming of age by the community, Even so, Jesus continued in subjection to His parents.

before His parents arrived , the teachers in the temple were already amazed at His understanding & answers.

Notice Jesus's mother spoke to Him directly , in the presence of the teachers in the temple.

His parents did not understand the statement He had made to them.
Notice that it says that His mother "treasured (all) these things in her heart"

Jesus's parents were still watching over Him and had not yet let go of the responsibility that they had for Him as His Parents.

Notice Jesus's mother spoke to Him directly , in the presence of the teachers in the temple.

I believe that when these men ( teachers in the temple ) saw Him answer his mother with ( the answer He answered her with ) & then seeing Him leave the temple with His parents, I believe these teachers, were further amazed at His obedience to God, in obeying His parents.

Notice also that the Scripture says that Jesus continued in subjection to His parents, and
that He "kept" increasing in wisdom & stature & in favor with both God ( & men.")

Also notice that the teachers of the temple did not rebuke the parents, did not side with the Jesus, and did not take any steps to create division between Jesus & His Parents.

Jesus did not begin pointing out the error of scribes, the pharisees, the teachers & the Rabbi until He was mature - until after he began walking in His ministry. See Matthew Chapter 23.
-------------------------------------
comments welcome

With Love,
Sherry

[mike_j]

[QUOTE=bizzmoth;356259] But so far, I don't miss it at all. Maybe it has so many negative feelings attached to it for me. Some folks say it is sort of like a form of self hypnosis - the droning and humming while staring at the worship leader and comtemplating how he (or she) is supposed to be "Christ in the Earth" to me.
/QUOTE]

Man, I completely forgot about how hypnotic those 'worshipping in the spirit' sessions
were--until reading your comment. And to think that sometimes I was complicit in doing the hypnotizing...ha!
No, I don't miss it at all, either.

[mike_j]

Continuing on the hypnotic theme--I remember when I first became involved with the Walk I made a strong effort to bring my older brother into it. I gave him a few messages on cassette and asked him to listen to them. A few days later he gave me his feedback: 'they're hypnotic.' Anything else, I queried? 'No, that's it.'
He was always very resistant to anything that numbed his freedom of thought--or encroached upon his individuality. So--I was never able to bring him to the place where he could stand in church as a drone and stare at the leader as the representative of Christ...lucky for him ;)

[dew_drop]

David when he spent a day with the prophets threw off his clothes, danced naked, running jumping, singing, worshipping God!

one who saw David said of him to the others, he has not become one of the prophets has he?

I think it is recorded that his wife saw him worshipping that day & was embarrassed of him, and disapproved of him & I think it also says, he never slept with her again.

With Love,
Sherry

[mike_j]

David when he spent a day with the prophets threw off his clothes, danced naked, running jumping, singing, worshipping God!

one who saw David said of him to the others, he has not become one of the prophets has he?

I think it is recorded that his wife saw him worshipping that day & was embarrassed of him, and disapproved of him & I think it also says, he never slept with her again.

With Love,
Sherry


Good point, Sherry. I think if I saw more naked dancing... assuming that the believers were in decent physical condition....I might have stuck around a little longer.
(kidding...sort of)

[mike_j]

I think it is recorded that his wife saw him worshipping that day & was embarrassed of him, and disapproved of him & I think it also says, he never slept with her again.

With Love,
Sherry

I think I differ from David in that even if my wife was embarrassed by my dancing, she would still have to sleep with me. She's not getting off her wifely duties that easily.

[dew_drop]

All right Guys,

I think you have may have been away from church too long. Give your self another 20 years & you'll see things differently, when your teeth & hair are gone, & your knees begin to give out.

All kidding aside,.... (With a smile)your not getting off that easy with that song & dance routine, I think it is mean spirited to criticize the way some one or any group of people worships God.

If " King David" wouldn't have anything to do with his wife after she berated him, maybe the Lord will have nothing to do with us - if we make fun of, mock, or belittle other peoples sincere expressions of worship. Maybe He likes the way they Worship Him, besides worship is not about us, it is for the Lord.

I think in this area ( criticizing & belittling how some one Worships God) we are standing on holy ground & need to remove our shoes.

I have only been to 2 services in the last 16 years - visited a Jewish Christian church, during the feast Tabernacles & one Baptist church, every church has it's own personality, it's own flavor but God's people are every where including in the church.

With more love,

Sherry

[mike_j]

I hear you, Sherry.

[dew_drop]

Mike (drone Free) you have the knees of a goat.
Love you anyway.

sherry

[mike_j]

Mike (drone Free) you have the knees of a goat.
Love you anyway.

sherry


Bob loved me, Dan loved me, and your boys loved me--sarcasm and all.
You have to love me too!

[dew_drop]

Mike,
Your right!
Smile, hug, will always love you.
Sherry

[dew_drop]

Dear Mike,



But remember Love does not act unbecomingly, it is not puffed up, love does not take unfair advantage of another's love,

See,... why not give 100% to honoring the Lord in this - then you will be truly free,
in the freedom you have received your self from the Lord - when the Lord receives from you 100% in this then you will be careful to try to not hurt any one, who is not yet free, so they who are not yet free will be able to hear and see clearly through the things you say , what it is that they will need to see & understand from the Spirit of the Lord, that they may see & turn their hearts to seeking the Lord in all matters where we are not yet one in the Lord - those who truly love God and are willing to do His will will know the truth when they hear it - is this not a better way to serve the Lord ? That the waters are not muddied by us, so they also may be come free in Christ.

With love,
Sherry

[jlintott]

AND...

Of course, we must make special mention of the unique position and privileges allowed for members of the families who were established in leadership.

I did like JRS's idea of "I will not compete with you". Too bad things didn't work out that way!

In our little cult, we were all striving to rise to the occasion. The problem was, we were absolutely competing in something that was nearly impossible to achieve. We were real competitive. Running a race with fierce intent. Not so much looking to the goal, which was an "upward calling"; as to looking at where we were in the pack. The pecking-order; the heirarchy. (Another great example of human nature, I suppose.)

And...
The winners, unfortunately, were pretty much prepped ahead of time. (my opinion)



It was strange how the manna always so quickly rotted. But there it was, keeping us fed for so long while we milled around the desert, following Moses; and his "cloud". We absolutely were a "mixed multitude". (I see that now).

Does the "Kingdom of God" exist now, without fanfare? In the unseen world perhaps?

-jl

[jargon631]

NO, thats where all the trouble starts

[dew_drop]

Dear brethren,

The reason I recently wrote on this thread (Luke2:41 thru 52 on 7/13/08) about the recorded story in the Bible about Jesus as a young boy at the age of 12 years old is because it shows the relationship that existed between Jesus and his "own" parents & it shows Jesus' mother's relationship with Jesus. It also shows that those who were teachers in the temple did not get in between a wise son & His parents - they too showed respect for the relationship that God commanded, Honor your mother & father.

There is something in what I am writing that I believe it is very important for the health and the well being of each member in Christ in their relationships with one another & in their relationship with the Father, who is both our Father & our God.

God did not appoint the ministry, ordain that the ministry should rule over your children or that they should be responsible for raising your children in the Lord.

The ministry has the responsibility if children are looking to the ministry as if they are the childs parent ,to speak the Word only to to your children and to turn your children hearts back to their own parents. The well being of children in life is the parents responsibility. The ministry is to be a support for parents and the ministry leads by example by showing respect for parents as parents.

I am not talking about if cries are coming out of your neighbors house or your brothers house, because parents are in any way abusing or hurting their own children.


I am talking about boundary lines and the relationships that God Himself has "designated" in His Word to us as to how we are to be related to our own children as their parents & what we are responsible for as the parents of our children.

The ministry is not suppose to usurp or take the place or take over the responsibility that God himself has honored parents with as provider and protector of & for their own children.

Parents do you realize that if you allow the ministry to take your place or assume what is your responsibility to spiritually or naturally raise your children that they will not receive what God wants them to receive from you, you are their covering and protection for them in the Lord,

If you are not abiding in the Word of the Lord your children are not protected in the way God wants them protected. You your self are not protected as God wants you protected - your covering in God comes from abiding in Him & keeping "His" commandments and His instructions to you.

[dew_drop]

The ministry has the responsibility to support and to show respect for the parents of the children as their parents. If the ministry is truly walking in the truth & serving the Lord they will honor God by showing respect for God's Will that Children should obey their parents and the ministry will honor a parent & the parents responsibility - that God has given both a father and mother . The ministry will show respect & honor God , by honoring the relationship God commanded is to exist between all & in all - in relationship to their own parents -even as men & women that are grown.

It is this that we are to submit ourselves to one another in -in the fear of the Lord - when we hear the "Truth" , when we hear the Spirit of the Lord and what He Himself has spoken, we have a responsibility to honor the "Truth" - and walk in the Word of the Lord, we are to follow no other voice, we are to keep God's Word. He said, "If you love Me, you will keep My Word.

This is how we do the will of the Lord. I am not saying you should leave the place where the Lord has set you in His body but I am saying we are to keep & to abide in His Word. If they persecuted Him, they will persecute you for keeping His Word, when it becomes a threat to any one who is building their own kingdom, at some point they will begin fighting against you. If they love God then they will love you.

They hated Him with out a cause, He was keeping the Word of the Father. Remember it was in His Father house where He was hated.

Then shall you know, when you follow on to know the Lord.

In Him,
with Love,
sherry

[dew_drop]

Dear Brother & Sisters who love God, those who are willing to do God's will,

The reason I am writing to you is that the early apostles instructed those who were believing in Christ, the early church was taught by the apostles of the early church, to test the spirits to see if they were of God. Because there were spiritual forces warring against them both from with in and from with out , trying to seduce them away from the Truth.

For example some were forbidding marrying, some were advocating the abstaining of eating certain foods, some were teaching the idea - saying do not handle, do not taste , do not touch, that one would perish with the using of these things ( I am not talking about drugs) and the apostles of the early church taught the people that this (thinking) was no more than man made religion, and said to them that Christ had died to set them Free , so why are you again subjecting your self to a yoke of slavery and bondage to these ideas that men had about what is acceptable to God and not acceptable to God.

Some were falsely teaching this "idea" was the way & what one "had to do" to please God . This thinking was a lie.

So the apostle's of the early church were warring against principalities & powers & unseen spiritual forces - that were set to enslave the people to man made religion, ideas that are in error & have nothing to do with worshiping & having a relationship with God.

Now these "ideas" that men have about worshipping God and what is the acceptable way to serve God - are warring against all men & man kind.

Warring To destroy relationships - to hold back the maturing we are to come in to - in our relationships with God our Father and with one another as the family of God - comprised of families, spiritually related brothers & sisters & neighbors.

When we come into abiding in the Real Word of the Lord, When we keep His Word , with a pure heart and with pure motives - because we have come to love God, in the way He deserves to & should be loved, when we are driven by our love for God to Keep "His Word " - these forces, these principalities and powers of darkness & deception will no longer be able to exist.

Every thought is to be captured and to be brought in subjection to Christ, to the "Truth".

Jesus Christ our Lord & Savior conquered & defeated and made an open show of them - (these principalities & powers that had seated them selves in heavenly ( high ) places) " influencing men" to think & to subject themselves to these ideas. Ideas that have nothing to do with God or with worshipping God, Jesus Christ exposed these ideas - as being lies, when He went to the cross. He put these " demonic principalities, powers & spiritual forces, who had been influencing men to believe these deceptive so called high ideas, He put them to shame and made an open show of them. Jesus exposed these ideas as being lies.

When men come together they are to be related to one another as brothers, all having One Leader and that is "Christ".

The husband is the spiritual head of the wife.
Children are to obey their parents in the Lord. All are to honor both their father & mother that their days may be long on the earth.

The family is protected both spiritually & naturally by abiding in the relationship that "God designated" by His Word is to exist, between husbands & wives and their own children, and between men who are to related to one another as spiritual brothers, all having ONE LEADER & THAT IS "CHRIST."

The Lord Jesus Christ made known how we are to relate to the Father & how we are & are not suppose to be spiritually related to one another.
see Matthew Chapter 23.
-----------
God has said regarding the union of a man & woman in marriage - let no man tear asunder what God has joined together.

In the relationships of the church as - members of one another as believers,

you have seen ( among your members ) that marriages have been torn apart - and children have suffered the loss of having an intact family, suffering to grow up with out having both father & mother - not because of immorality, or physical abuse or mental cruelty, lying or thefts between a husband & a wife but because either the husband or the wife did not give himself or herself to obediently following and supporting a man (the ministry) as being the spiritual authority & head over all of members of that body of believers.

Do you think those who you look up to and reverence, those who you follow & are surrendered to , that those who are leading you, are greater than God?

Are you living under the influence of an "idea" " false ideas" spiritual lies that Christ died to set men free from?

Have you or do you close your eyes, hearts & your ears so as not to hear what "God has spoken"
so that you are a support for the destruction & the tearing asunder of the marriages & relationships of your own spiritual brothers & sisters - thinking that this is what you need to do to be found being faithful to God , reasoning that this tearing apart of relationships & the sufferings your brother or sister is or has experienced is a consequence for not honoring & supporting the ministry and their will?

Do you or have you turned your heart away from the cries, tears & sorrows that have come or are coming out of your brothers house,
refusing to hear them because you think you are following the Lord in giving your mind and hearts to this kind of thinking, to these ideas about obedience?

Forbidding of marriage, how many of you did not marry some one you loved and wanted to marry because the ministry influenced you to think that the person you loved did not qualify as a suitable mate for you - because the one you wanted to marry was not willing to surrender their will and their mind and life - as you have to the ministry. Did you subject your self to obey the ministry when they told you it was not the will of the Lord for you to marry some one?

This is not what the ministry is suppose to be doing. .

If you believe the early apostle's warning - you will recognize that subjecting your self to a man in this -
so as not to think for your self - so as to blindly subject your self to the will of men in this - according to the teachings of the apostles of the early church, you are really subjecting your self to no more than man made religion.

So if you keep & obey the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ & pay close attention to the teachings of the apostle's of the early church - those who say they are apostles among you today, will be tested & you will be able to discern and see who is of God and who is not of God.
----------
Are you being told to think this way ? My only responsibility is to follow."
Are you being led to repent for owning your own brain... for making your own decisions? "
-------------
The apostle's of the early church were spiritually educating the people about Christ and what He had over come and accomplished for man, in laying down His life.

It is thru believing God that we are saved. This is how we come to understand the Love that God has for us and for all of His creation, through our obedience to God. If we love Him we will keep HIS WORD. We will follow no other voice for many will come touting themselves as being apostles, & prophets of God. The early church was taught to test the spirits to see if they were of God.

I am not saying you are to leave the place where God has set you in the body, I am pointing to the Word of the Lord to help you to start thinking so that you may put on the mind of Christ in every area you find you are believing a lie.

With Love,
Sherry

[jlintott]

DD,

AMEN. (So be it)

What you said here is good stuff that we all need to listen to, and think about.

-JL

[winterland]

About three years ago I was visiting some dear friends who are ex-walkies and live near Shiloh. Coincidentally this was over the July 4th holiday. I heard that an old friend of mine that I had worked at Shiloh with from 1975-1980 was at Shiloh for the summer camp. As I hadn't seen this person for over twenty five years, I went to Shiloh for the afternoon to look my old friend up. We had a very nice afternoon catching up and laughing over old times. I left after exchanging phone number and addresses with my old friend promising that we would keep in touch.

Over the next several months I dropped my old "friend" a couple of notes in the mail but I never heard from my "friend." After several months I called my friend on the phone just to make a friendly contact. Unfortunatly my friend told me that this person had been given a "WORD" by their pastor (a Walk pastor) that this person should focus their attention on their relationships in "the Body." Needless to say, because I was no longer a part of "the Body" this person had not been in contact with me. I don't think I was being singled out personally as I was also told that this person's biological sibling (also a non- walk person) had been trying to get in contact with them and my friend was not returning their sibling's telephone calls either.

Having been in the Walk, I understand this situation. But both my friend and I are now in our 50's. When I was in my teen's and early twenties I too was entirely focused on my relationships in "the Body." I wouldn't want to live with these restraints at this time of my life. I can't imagine cutting off my non-Walk family and non-Walk friends and only relating to people in "the Body."

I posted this story on the "Do you miss going to church" site. I realize that going to a "Walk" church would require too high a price.

From this story....I don't think the Walk has changed that much but I do know that I have changed.

[bizzmoth]

Winterland -

Even though the LW folks want the world to believe otherwise, the LW is still basically unchanged in its cultish practices as you discovered.

[mike_j]

TLWF honors free will, and the notion that it makes any attempt to control the behaviour or thinking of its membership is a MYTH!!


After several months I called my friend on the phone just to make a friendly contact. Unfortunately my friend told me that this person had been given a "WORD" by their pastor (a Walk pastor) that this person should focus their attention on their relationships in "the Body."

[mike_j]

BTW, I noticed that I am still listed as a 'junior' member on this forum. But if you include all the posts I made under other names (changedagain, Lamp from Ikea etc.) I should really be a senior member--or at least a set aside senior member. My current 'junior' factnet status really is an insult.
I guess what I am saying is that, from now on, when you read any of my comments--assume they are coming from a spiritual platform...a place of authority...not reflective of someone with 'junior' status.

[dew_drop]

Mike,

That was too funny. Let your heart not be troubled!

I heard once, that at the foot of the cross the ground is level, where only "One" is exalted on the throne of our hearts!

[jlintott]

I have a friend who is still in the LWF.
He had both knees replaced recently. Is now in his early 80's.

He had words (from god?) confirmed to him three decades ago concerning building a business, that it would go HUGE on the west coast. This word, given at RD's church, was a beautiful, fantastic vision of great success.
I recall him being very close to full union benefits (including pension) at that time.
He could have stuck it out with the union one more year. Probably should have.

Instead, he went this other way through submitting his life to a group of apostles/prophets.

He lost his house on a loan taken-out to finance the first project.

Well,30 years later, the guy is now old, and has no money to retire on.
He continues to soldier-on as a skilled tradesman.
Can't afford to quit.

Still faithfully involved in the magical kingdom of the LWF.
I pray that the real God watches out for him, and his wife as his years go by.


do you miss going to LW church.
do you miss getting the latest update(s), which fuel a free-floating world of illusion.
do you long for the little "fixes", which apparently are part of a systemic addiction.

I hope and pray that those of us who meet here will choose freedom over slavery.
May God be a light unto our path.
Leaving egypt is not easy.
-JL

[Mordechai Fehr]

To outsmart a fox one has to play the fox.

Today, too many people are emotional wrecks and any flicker of hope causes people to drop their guard and fall into a trap.

The bible clearly states :"Let each man work out his own salvation with Godly fear and trembling". It should be with this thought in mind, before we depart with our monies and valuables to build another mans dream. Its also beneficial to know that your Pastors are not the ones who will be standing before God for your sins,...You are the one.

Start afresh with God and HE will see you through.

Oh and I dont miss Church that much due to all the travelling, however today was to be communion sunday, but no communion, just 2 offerings. I really needed communion today.

But yeah, nothing surprises me.

Shamat Shalom.

[dew_drop]

Dear Brothers & Sisters who walk together in the L.W Fellowship,

May the Spirit of Lord bless you to understand what it is that these who are here. are trying to reach you concerning.

That the "true" faith of which the Scriptures speak, the faith that was once & for all delivered to the Saints, shows that Saints overcame something and received an understanding - that their "faith" was to believe God, to believe what God had spoken, from of old, through Moses & the early prophets , from those that God had sent - scribes, prophets & wise men and finally God sent His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ who came to make known the Father . He Himself only did what He saw the Father doing , He only spoke what He heard the Father speaking. And God said of Him, This is my beloved Son, hear Him.

The things He did & spoke were upsetting the "religious" leaders in His time. Jesus was turning the hearts of men away from men and turning the hearts of men to God, to the Father - to the Father when He told the multitudes and His own disciples in the "temple" how they were and were not to be related to one another.Matt:23

Brothers have you been told by the ministry who leads you, that there is no God in the Sky? This is what was being taught to the congregation when I was present with you.

Have you not been told by the ministry, that you are to relate to God "in" those who are on earth. To relate to God as being "God" as man? Not to relate to Him who is in the sky as if He were in heaven?

This is why you gave yourself to believing you were to give up your free wills to obey the ministry & the decisions the shepherds would make for you and over you and your life - why you allow today others they have designated you are to submit to and obey to rule over you. Teaching you to sbmit to one another as if you are each christ in the flesh.


The mystery of Christ in you is "not" that you are Christ - it is that the "Truth" according to Christ abides in you and because of this "Truth" the Father is seated and worshipped as God on the throne of your hearts.

Jesus said , "And do no call any one on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Now any one who was willing to do God's will heard- what the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking and understood what He was saying and any one who loved God stopped relating to the religious leaders as if they were God, as if they were ministers of the "Truth", in this "area" of the relationships that they had with the ministry of the scribes, the Pharisees and the Rabbi.

The multitudes were following Jesus every where He went,

they were receiving something from Jesus (the Truth) - that they were not getting from men - from men who had appointed themselves as spiritual leaders & authorities - those who were ruling over the members of a spirititual community of people who came together in the temple to learn of God & to worship God.

These spiritual leaders of the community had seated themselves in the chair of Moses. And you know that Moses was the last spiritual man on earth that God commanded men should "obey" in order to receive from God - what was promised.

Moses' seat was to remain empty on earth and the Lord when He came He found that chair occupied by those, who Jesus said- had seated themselves in that chair. God did not appoint them to or seat them in this chair.

Jesus exposed and confronted the motives of those who were spiritually ruling over that body of believers. Jesus exposed them to the multitude for what they really were inwardly - while making themselves appear outwardly - as being righteousness.

Brothers you need to read your bible and study Matthew Chapter 23: to verify if what I am saying is the truth according to Christ Himself, according to what He spoke and taught both His own disciples and the multitudes who were listening to what Jesus was teaching and commanding - in the temple.

You need to see the real "spirit" that is "in" & "behind" those who seat themselves in a spiritual chair of authority & you need to realize the real "motives" and the "nature" that is "in" those who lead the people to relate and be related against the the Word of the Lord , and to see what spirit is in those, who will not humble themselves to Jesus & to Humble themselves to was Jesus was saying as being the "Truth" , so as to get out of that seat.

They did not want to loose all the honor, glory, adulation, reverence, and many other benefits they were receiving from the multitudes from the position they had taken for themselves in seating themselves in the chair of Moses over all the people as - spiritual leaders.

So they plotted to get rid of the Lord because Jesus was leading & teaching the people to end the wrong kind of relationships they had with the "ministry".

Jesus was correcting the wrong thinking this people had..
Jesus was making known the relationship they were to alone have with the Father and with "no one " on earth.

I heard on a tape at the end of a service during the Feast Of Tabernacles in the year Gary had surgery & did not attend that feast & Sealas from Brazil was brought to LA to bring the word for the feast- I heard one of the brothers worshipping Gary in the service, singing & worshipping Gary by name. Relating to Gary as if he were his spiritual father, worshipping Gary, in worship that alone belongs to God.

How far have you gone away from the Lord that you worship the creation rather than the creator in your services?

The early apostles warned the church about this. This deception was warring against the early church. The Saints of the early church over came these lies and deceptions and received the "Truth" their faith was in God, they followed no other teaching, doctrine or voice - no matter who came preaching or teaching such things - they adhered only to Christ - what Jesus Christ taught & command them they gave themselves to obeying Christ. This is the "obedience" of the faith , that we keep His Word and obey Him to relate to Our Father who is in heaven, and to relate to no man or woman on earth as if they were god, above or before God.

Such as these does the Father seek, those who will worship Him in Spirit & in Truth.
not in the flesh of men but in Spirit - "by faith" - they believe God. They hear His only begotten Son, they keep His Word.

Jesus died to set man free from spiritual bondage, from being related wrong to men. Jesus was & is God's Truth, and He is the only "Way" no man comes to the Father except though HIM.

Brothers & Sisters, those things Jesus spoke thousands of years ago are available to you today - His Words are the "Living Word" you are to seek Him , to find Him , to follow - - no other voice, no other gospel or christ.

May the day star arise in your hearts!

With Love,
In Him
Sherry

[larry_bobo]

seems to me that the men and women whose lives have had the greatest impact on the earth have all discovered a personal secret place with the Lord. I don’t see second-hand relationships with God being that effective, except to provide inspiration by example. I certainly would not want another man to have a sexual relationship with my wife and then have to accept his description of it in lieu of my own personal relationship. How much more is this true with my Creator?

The wolves in sheep’s clothing, that seek to draw men after themselves, are a perversion that loves to play God. A true shepherd will point the way to the only One that can give you a nature change. He is not so arrogant to assume it’s him. He’s not Christ, but he understands the narrow path to Christ and the light of Christ shines through his life.

He’s God’s gift to serve you and help you find the path to green pastures that are very uniquely yours. He has no vested interest in what God decides to do with your life, only that you would personally walk with Him. He will share in the wonder of God’s light shining through your life in a way that has never been seen before. Actually, above all else, he is in love with God and can hardly wait to see another expression of Him revealed.

The goal is not dependence, but independence, as it is with a parent and child. When a young adult can finally face life without their parent’s help, the parent has been successful. When a shepherd no longer has to coddle a sheep to keep them on the path, and when the sheep of his own free will wants more than anything to spend time with his Creator, the shepherd has been successful. The source of life from that point on is on God alone. Jesus said that apart from him- not other humans- we could do nothing.

Jesus also said,”But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers, and do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called teacher, for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles will be exalted.” Dependence on God alone is not anarchy as those who want you to be dependent on them would have you believe.

It’s often said that people go to a church where they are being fed. What about feeding others what God has personally given you? The Body makes increase of itself in love by that which every joint supplies, not takes. How long will it be before we all know Him, from the least to the greatest, and the crutches of religious systems built to glorify man can be eliminated? Our lack of personal responsibility to walk with God is as much to blame as the positions we’ve allowed others to take over us that have separated us from God.

Even a small dose of His presence in the secret place makes the touch of the greatest humans I have known seem insignificant. I know others have experienced the same thing. There is nothing but Him that can satisfy this ache. It is amazing to find out it is His ache as well.

[themissinglink]

Aloha Larry~

What a delight to see and hear you articulate so clearly the Witness of my Heart. August 3 is beloved Jerry Beavers birthday, and this post was a gift to me, of the Infinite and Eternal Oneness we share together on both sides of the veil, in Him. Mahalo and amen, in Spirit and in Truth. Malama pono, Link

[jargon631]

larry..."personal space with the lord"...very succinct and absolutaly essential

fd

[jargon631]

by the way, i know this may lead to speculation concerning my cranial thickness, but can someone tell me how to start a thread...i humbly await elucidation

fd

[larry_bobo]

I used to be fearful of the Lordship of Jesus Christ when others were playing God in my life. I began to think that these “words from God” were actually meant to bring destruction and somehow this was working the “cross” in my life. The disillusionment of unfulfilled “words” caused mistrust in God’s intention towards me. The occasional blessing was always marred by the next “testing” which resulted in one step forward and two steps backward. Probably the most destructive thing was the insecurity from thinking His love was dependent on my submission to other humans. His love seemed to be in a constant flux - being given and then withdrawn – so unstable. He related to me just like my shepherd related to me because they were the same. The Father Jesus said was in heaven, didn’t exist except in man on earth.

What a wonderful relief to find out He is nothing at all like that! His love is everlasting and His faithfulness never ends. He never makes mistakes and everything He does is absolutely perfect. It was like a new salvation experience. I was so amazed to find out that God actually does what He says, when He says He will do it. He alone is trustworthy. He doesn’t need humans making excuses for His lack of response. If it’s not happening, He never said it. It’s just something humans wanting to control other humans have dreamed up. God is not a man that He should lie.

In fact, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 says, ”But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord”? If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”

Those of us who have suffered under the requirement of absolute submission to a leader’s mistaken “words” while they are learning to play god to guinea pigs in a “kingdom lab”, understand why God threatened this practice with death. Submission to the wrong thing doesn’t automatically work out. It is very damaging. So damaging in fact that I don’t think we were supposed to survive. But, here we are! God’s grace is much greater than our human abilities. As one definition of grace states, “It’s too good to be true!”.

Learning submission when the result was destructive has only added fuel to the fire of obedience that results in God’s blessing. Having learned submission the first way has only made the second way much easier. We have been uniquely prepared to walk on. His yoke truly is easy and His burden is light when it really comes from Him instead of humans piling things on. We will always have things to overcome, but that is different than being sabotaged from the inside.

Instead of vein popping screams of frustration over something He has not spoken directly to me about, I find myself instead quietly listening for His daily direction. He is so quick to supply whatever I need to accomplish whatever He is asking me to do that day. It’s much different than asking him to bless my plans, which I fully intend to accomplish in my own strength, in hopes of satisfying the cravings of an old nature. This daily manna has resulted in an unplanned life beyond what I could have imagined. He gives seemingly unrelated tasks that require faith and leaning not on your own understanding and then the final outcome, after He connects the dots, is far superior to anything you could have ever dreamed up on your own.

For example, I felt He was leading me to take a class in another state related to the type of work I do. I didn’t have the money at the time, not because it had not passed through my hands, but because I had given to other areas I felt the Lord wanted me to give to. I printed off the application form and laid it on my desk before the Lord. A couple of hours later, I received a call offering me a position on a Board I could have never strategized to be appointed to, provided I would take this particular class – and by the way, they wanted to cover all my expenses. I not only took the class but have had an opportunity to serve with individuals who are the top in the nation in this field. Let’s just say it is a tremendously different result than being taken out of circulation of the overall Body of Christ for some false shepherd’s personal gain.

What a privilege to allow Him to direct every area of life. I almost feel guilty in business – what an unfair advantage! If He’s actually directing, how could I expect anything but success. I’m not really into the prosperity gospel but He has prospered me. In fact, I’m finding I need less for myself and finances just pass through to meet other needs. I’ve been working with some very wealthy customers lately and money certainly does not bring happiness. What people need is the fruit of the Spirit for their lives to work. It doesn’t depend on what church you attend, but rather that you carve out a time in your day to seek Him first. He’ll fill up the rest of your day with Himself and order your steps. Anyone can do it and it works! God only has your good in mind.

[dew_drop]

Jude verse 25 to the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory,
majesty, dominion, & authority, before all time and now & forever.

This one sentence shows,

God is to be the authority over us. God is the One who is our Savior, who saves us through Jesus Christ, who is our Lord.

God said to Jesus,
Come sit here, until your enemies become the foot stool for your feet.

The heavens must contain Him - until every knee is bowing (both in heaven, on earth & under the earth.) until every tongue is confessing that Jesus is "Lord," to the glory of the Father.
---------------------
Larry,

Just as you said - Dependence on God alone is not anarchy as those who want you to be dependent on them would have you believe.
---------------------
A man who looks to God as the spiritual authority over himself & his life, a man who keeps God's Word, is under the authority & the covering of God as a man bows his knees to God acknowledging Jesus as his Lord - which is to the Father's glory.

man becomes the glory of God in honoring God's Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ as his Lord.

God has always been the authority before all time, now & forever.

[themissinglink]

Lovely.
Larry, As you say, .....the preparation was like running with weights, and once they are cast off, the Race has winged feet! Something like Galatians 1 that we were as slaves for the season, though Heirs in Truth.....we find ourselves in Due Season. I rejoice in the heart of sonship formed so faithfully in you.

I see clearly the Fruit John believed to see, formed in you..... having cracked out of the shell of restriction in Safe Passage....remember he said one could not help another through that process necessary for forming the necessary strength, without causing the bird to become a casualty.

There were certainly plenty of burs and thorns left in the nest....and seeing the eagles rising is Secret Manna indeed! Mahalo for the drink of Cool Water......gg

[jlintott]

I really do appreciate everyone's comments on this, and the other threads

We have allowed a pretty diverse range of opinions here.
With only a minimum of mudslinging.
That is admirable in itself.

If only for me, these discussions have been of great benefit.
I have tended toward resolving alot of the residual double binds which were lingering in the back of my mind all these years.

Thank's Everyone!!

-Progress is being made!!!

-------------JL

[themissinglink]

That is Wonderful and True!! On to 8.8.8 which in the alphanumeric Hebrew Language scheme of things, is Yeshua, along with other Terms of Honor to the Lord! Have you heard of this?

[jlintott]

Shakespear used iambic pentameter while writing his plays. I.P. sequenced the phrasing in a mathematical way. Extremely difficult to write a play AND do that too. He might have had help? Like a man of renown?

What is the meaning of 8.8.8.?

I have heard that much of the OT is written in a numerical way. That must be mpossible to do without some kind of supernatural supervision.

-JL

[dew_drop]

Link,

Earlier this year, I found a website www.hebrew4christians.com which speaks of what you wrote. You can learn Hebrew for free on this site.

There are many other stories and teachings that exalt the Lord in many ways through the Word and the meanings of the words used. including each letter of the alpha bet.

it is not about just mystics of Jewish tradition but has
one entry that tells of the mystics of Jewish tradition - that they believe the entire
cosmos is said to be created from 22 consonants of the Hebrew Alpha Bet, called (otyod Yesod) or foundational letters. In other words they believe the entire universe is created & sustained by divine language ( the Word Of God). When the Lord spoke the universe into existence, His Words still echo throughout all creation, sustaining it, and preserving it in being.

I like reading the topic what's new.

I think this site is a good source for those who love the Word, you might want to check it out for yourselves.

[themissinglink]

Cool, mahalos! I was looking for an article on the 888 and will post it when I locate it again....meanwhile, sounds like you found a motherlode site!

[jlintott]

I am not sure 8.8.8 means much.

But Friday is august 8th 2008. That is 8.8.8

The occult people are whooping it up this weekend. Some sort of new shift in the cosmos, they said.

-JL

[themissinglink]

Here is a bit of interest on it:

Several words and phrases in the Bible have the numerical value of 888, which include: Jesus, Messiah, I am the Lord, I change not, the Lord art exalted forever, I am the Life, the Priest with Urim and Thumim, the salvation of our God, the mercy of the Most High, My Beloved, the heavens declare the glory of God, they shall be comforted, and the third day. Also, the names of Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah from the tribe of Judah together equal 888. The book of Revelation, which is the revelation of Jesus, has 888 words in Greek.

Acts 3:16, "And His name through faith in His name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by Him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all."

The Language of Math

In my research, I learned about others who were experts in Gematria and Biblical numbers, including Bonnie Gaunt.

Bonnie Gaunt has published several books exploring the awesome revelation locked in the Scriptures through Gematria. Jesus is our new beginning and the King of a new and awesome Kingdom, which we have the opportunity to enter into - to live a new existence.

Most of the Church understands that our Lord JESUS is the new beginning for our life and the entire world. The numbers of Gematria help to further prove this fact.

For example, this is the way to write as the Greek would, using English letters and the Greek values:

The name Jesus (Iesous in Greek) adds up to 888:
Iesous =
I (10) + e (8) + s (200) + o (70) + u (400) + s (200) = 888

Most of the names in the New Testament referring to Jesus are multiples of 8. See the list below:

Lord = 800 = 8 x 100
Jesus = 888 = 8 x 111
Christ = 1,480 = 8 x 185
Savior = 1,408 = 8 x 176
Messiah = 656 = 8 X 82

The title Lord (800) + Jesus (888) + Christ (1,480) has a numerical value which equals 3,168.

The numbers should help to further increase our faith in the fact that Jesus has provided for us a new life and we don't have to live in our old existence any more. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

We clearly understand how important the title Lord Jesus Christ is in the Church, and it is equally as important in the universe. Think about this for a moment, if God wanted everyone in the entire universe to understand that He is God and if HE wanted to speak a language all could grasp, what language would He use? The language of mathematics is an elevated language and it can't lie. If one number is changed, then the entire meaning would also change!

Mathematics in Scripture

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the Cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

All of the authors I know sign their work. In this respect, the Lord is no different. The universe in which we live bears His signature; that is, the numerical value of 3168.

For example, the city of Bethlehem is located at 31.68 degrees north latitude on the earth. We would have to dig 10 miles below the earth's crust before reaching lava, and we would have to travel 50 miles above the surface of the earth before entering outer space. The sum of these 2 distances is 60 miles. If we convert 60 miles into feet, the numerical value is 316,800 feet (5,280 feet x 60 = 316,800).

Notice the continual occurrence of 3168!

Acts 17:28 says, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'"

The Bible states that we live and move and have our being in Jesus and the numbers prove it.

If a box is placed around the earth so that the four sides touch each side of the earth, the perimeter around that box would equal 31,680 miles.

Placing the moon directly on top of earth at the North Pole and drawing a circle around the earth and the moon, the perimeter of the circle would equal 31,680 miles.

3,168 = Mediator between God and men, the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. "He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities" (Isaiah 53:11).

"To whom then will ye liken Me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth." Isaiah 40:25-26

[themissinglink]

Interesting FYI Trivia:

Dr. Brown explained the difference between Hebrew alphabets and our English alphabets and numbers. Unlike the English alphabet, each letter of the Hebrew alphabet also represents a numerical value. Dr. Brown indicated that many books he'd read had alphabets at the bottom of the page instead of a number - because the letters are numbers.

Later I would find out that there was also a name associated with the numerical values of Hebrew and Greek alphabets, which is known as "Gematria."

Dr. Brown introduced me to another person I had never heard of named Dr. Ivan Panin (Dr. Brown and I were having this conversation while I was driving to a speaking engagement in Richmond, Virginia). He told me how Dr. Panin had discovered mathematic sequences in the Bible in the late 1800s and had given his life to Jesus as a result of his findings. Panin was known as a firm agnostic - so well known, that when he discarded his agnosticism and accepted the Christian faith, the newspapers carried headlines telling of his conversion!

This conversation piqued my excitement all the more, and I couldn't wait to arrive at my hotel room in Richmond, Virginia, and dive deep into the information. But I still didn't see the connection with what Father told me to do on the first day of the New Year. This was just information I could use to further my Biblical understanding that could be used in sermons and other teachings, right? Wrong again! God was leading me, even though I didn't know I was following.

The Search Begins

I will never forget turning on my computer and performing the search for Dr. Ivan Panin and being amazed at what he found - without a computer. He learned Hebrew and Greek in four years, and from there he discovered number sequences. Panin says the laws of probability are exceeded into the billions when we try and rationalize the authorship of the Bible as the work of man. He once said: "If human logic is worth anything at all we are simply driven to the conclusion that if my facts I have presented are true, man could never have done this."

He challenged those who read his findings to attempt to write a simple paragraph that would meet the numerical qualifications of the Bible that are simply found in the genealogies of the Bible. He also challenged the readers of the local newspapers to give a natural explanation or rebuttal to his findings. There were no takers!

In my hotel room, I was like a child in grade school again! And then it suddenly happened - while reading Dr. Panin's work on the number 8.

He revealed that the number associated with the name Jesus was 888.

I could hardly believe it! Father had instructed me to have a celebration on the date that reflects the number of His Name. Even after a long drive and a speaking engagement with double services the next morning, it was 2:30 AM before I could pull myself away from the computer, and it was even later before I could actually fall asleep.

The Master Mathematician - the Number of His Name

Even though we seldom (if ever) think of Him in these terms, the Creator of the Universe is the Master Mathematician. He has spoken in the language of math for centuries, but we haven't been listening simply because no one realized it was His voice.

As the pieces began to fall into place, I could clearly see why God had directed me to hold this celebration on August 8, 2008.

Again, in the Greek language, the numerical value for the name Jesus is 888, and most of the names or titles of our Lord are also multiples of 8. The Lord was instructing us to celebrate "the number of His name." August 8, 2008 represents more than just new beginnings; this number, which will not appear on our calendar again for one thousand years, identifies Him.

After considering this (along with the fact that every letter, word, phrase, sentence, paragraph and book in the Bible are more than just words, they are also numerical values), my only conclusion was that the Bible is not just a literary book - but the Bible is also a math book.

[jlintott]

It's 8/8/9. now what?

-JL

[mike_j]

It's 8/8/9. now what?

-JL

Throughout history, in every cultural tradition, it has been honored as a workday.
Check in with your shepherd. It's not too late to put some hours in.

[mike_j]

And yes, Jim, you can still honor the Sabbath by working.
So don't try that excuse!

[themissinglink]

It's 8/8/9. now what?

-JL

Chortle......!

Now: "Depart NOT out!!!!"

We have positioned ourselves on Holy Ground and Evermore is our Address with Understanding....!

Salutations within the Holy of Holies~Link

[jlintott]

Mike:

Whew, that 888 was a pretty amazing ordeal. I pulled through OK, but still need some resting-up.
Still managed to doze off before 10 pm, though.

It is tomorrow, the party is over, and I am still wondering just what happered yesterday.

Without a clue-JL

-JL

[dew_drop]

So to sum it up there are many "things, evidences" that reveal that God is.

The Word of God, In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God and the Word....

I saw a program on the History Channel or Discovery Channel, that science thru the use of the Hubble telescope, that science has newly discovered that there is a sticky substance that is holding the entire universe together.

This did not surprise me because the Word says all things are held together by Him , all things were made through Him & nothing was made with out Him. Even Science is discovering Him - though they do not yet understand, what it is they are seeing.

It is not enough to know about Him, because knowledge will increase and much
knowledge - brings sorrow.

Our cry is to know Him. As we behold Him, we become like Him.

It is not by the evidence that men discover that He is - that we have confidence - they tell of what we already know - having seen for ourselves by faith, we draw near to God knowing that He is - and a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Jesus said to His own disciples,
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you "another" Helper, that He may be with you forever, that is the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides
with you, & will be in you.

So in all things, let us be glad together - in knowing together that He IS, and that we have been blessed by Him to have been given from Him, the opportunity to come to Him, to Know Him.

[dew_drop]

Dear Brothers & Sisters in the L.W.Churches,

So in writing many things to you, I wrote about some of the things that I experienced in walking together with you in the faith, where I believe & knew & know that this is where the Lord set me in the body, where it pleased Him to set me.

I write about things I experienced both good & bad - And the treasures & the memories that I have of how we walked together like children, the sweetness of those years, where we hungered to hear so many messages, feeding on the Word of God when John Stevens was well, living & laying a foundation which others are now building on. And there is a warning that all should heed - that those who build on another's man's foundation should be careful how they build for they & their work will be tested with fire. Even in this there is grace & mercy because even though a man's works be burned up, he may be saved.

If I would tell you one thing to do, it is that you should break the bonds you have with one another. Except the bond of marriage to your own husband or wife in the Lord, this bond is exclusive between a man and a woman and is ordained by God, & marriage is to be considered by all as holy.

Men spiritually & naturally guard & protect your own family in the Lord- allow no one to come into your house, unless they show respect for both you & your wife. We are not to be skeptical or gullible. Notice to be neither skeptical nor gullible that you have to have a boundary line as to how close you should or should not allow others to be to you. Does this mean you have walls? No it means you are centered in a balance in your self in the relationship you have with those out side of your own direct family. You are the Spiritual head of your house and the Lord is to be the Spiritual head of each man, in his own house.

Children obey your parents in the Lord, God gave you to your parents, they are your spiritual protection & your natural protection - one day you will ask the Father for yourselves & He will give you anything you ask that is in His Heart to give. For in asking you will have His heart & His mind concerns & in no way will He refuse you in this.


Looking to the Lord, live each grown man and young man of age , be in charge of your own life, giving your self to serve at your own will in those areas you wish to serve in - always keeping your free will and a free mind to say "no" to any one who presses you or tries to influence you in any way that it is your duty to give back to God. Follow the example that Jesus Christ gave in saying,"no man takes my life, I lay it down & I take it up, this Commandment I received from My Father."

Love God Your Father with all your heart, mind & soul and have no one in between you and your love for God. Find His Word yourself concerning any matter where there is a division between brothers in the faith. Seek Him ,Find Him, Find His Word and keep His Word because if you find Him you will love Him, and you will give yourself to keeping His Word.

The Word Of God Magnifies & exalts His Only begotten Son, Jesus Christ & the Gospel of Jesus Christ leads men to draw near to God and to relate to the Father.

Christ in you - is not that you are Christ - it is that the "Truth" abides in you and you will bear witness of both the Son & of the Father and you too will say as the Lord Himself spoke, Worship God.

You will honor the Lord as your Lord and will not take His place because His glory will rest on you and you will know that it is the glory the Father has given to Him. It is the glory that belongs to the Father, who loved the world and who gave His only begotten Son, that who ever believes in "Him" may have eternal life.

This is how we walk with the Lord as His vessels for His glory and how we walk with one another as Free men and women in the faith - our faith in the Father who is not on earth but who is in heaven just as the Lord Himself in the Scriptures has told you.

With Love,
In Him
Sherry

[jlintott]

Churches seem to be a magnet for the one-eyed jacks in this world. The misfits are then managed by others who are in worse condition.

If it was not for our general state of denial, the whole deception would quickly grind to a halt.

It is not that God is absolutely letting us down. It is just human nature. Most are on the make, on the take. Opportunistic foragers. Totally adulterated.

The lesson to be learned is just to see without looking through the rose colored glasses.
Avoiding the traps of religious addiction can be accomplished.


True, True---there are exceptions to this; some actually exibit Godly vesselhood.
Finding true saints these days is like finding a diamond in a sand pit.

-JL

[dew_drop]

Dear Jintott,

In kindness & with understanding,
I get the impression you think "every one" should at this time, just leave the church.

I could be wrong, I believe that it is better to overcome right where you are at, and those who are breaking through in Christ & thru Christ, by the Word of the Lord & By His Spirit, will turn & help one another.

I believe I was given a responsibility from the Lord in 1967 or 1968 and I have a son there so that I too if not having a son there, would have possibility went on my way forgetting my brethren and their well being in life. It is not for me to tear apart what God has related together as brothers. members of one another, where He has set them, related in the faith to one another , according to His purposes & His good pleasure.

If God's people hear God calling to them to come out of her, then they will hear Him calling to them, because they will know His voice, they will come to His calling to them, because when God gets ready to judge the place where once the voice of the bride & the bridegroom were heard, in that place, the Spirit of God will Himself call to them because He does not want them to suffer the sufferings that are a result of judgment - judgment that will bring an end to that which should not be and there will come a time that it will no longer be.

[jlintott]

I'm just never gonna drive blind ever again.

Thank you, and have a nice day!

-JL

[themissinglink]

Thanks be to Amazing Grace!..... (and the Road will be a safer place for all!)

'Twas blind, but now I see!

[mike_j]

I'm just never gonna drive blind ever again.
-JL


Right. If you're aware that you're part of someone else's agenda, who has little or no interest in your personal welfare, and yet you still feel it is Gods' will to remain where you are (for whatever reason)--that is one thing.
But keeping your head in the sand...or driving blind, as you put it--is irresponsible.



p.s. I'll give you my opinion about driving while talking on your cell in a later post, Jim.

[dew_drop]

Through out the Old Testament there is a theme - that God deals with man kind making Himself known as the Lord, as God. And God sends the prophets, Scribes and Wise men to the generations to help them realize their error, giving them an opportunity to repent and return to Him. See 2 Chronicles Chapter 33 - how Manasseh and those Manasseh led astray and away from the Lord, repents and how he returns to the Lord and what Manasseh does to correct the things that needed to be corrected to honor God & to worship Him alone as God..

How will you ask the Lord for anything if you think you are the Lord? He (Jesus Said) if you do not confess Him before men , He will not confess you to the Father.

God is not a God of confusion. You are You, God is God, He is a Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit- He is in heaven, you are on earth. To any one who is willing to do His will , that one will know the Truth when they hear the Truth.

The Word is your helper and Jesus said to His disciples that He was going to the Father, when He went to the Father that the Father would give them another Helper, which is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. And the Holy Spirit will lead you into all the Truth.

Little children pretend that they are something that they are not. One wants to be a fireman, but to be a fireman is something far from what they imagine it means to be a fireman.

Do you want to be "like" the Lord, then you must honor Him as Lord. The Word speaks that no one comes to Father except thru the Son And no man comes to the Son accept by the Father.

Where do you fit in - pretending you are the Lord.

The body of Christ is a body of believers & followers of Christ. They confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of the Father.

They do not confess themselves as Lord, do they ?

If we keep His Word and do His will and if we confess Him before men , then He will confess us to the Father.

See... you are you and Jesus Christ is named by God as His Only begotten Son, the Father has honored Jesus and has given His name as the only name by which men can be saved both in heaven & on earth. and The Father gave His Son Jesus Christ so that we might come to know the Truth - even this Truth.

If was because of this message and this gospel that the disciples , apostles, & the saints and all those who confessed Jesus Christ - were being persecuted & put to death. And the Father glorified them because of their faithfulness, because they were faithful to the end to not depart from the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ, to be faithful to Christ who revealed the true nature of God who loved the World, offering His Son as a sacrifice, so that whoever believes "God" may have eternal life.

Jesus said of us who believe - Blessed our they whose eyes have not seen, yet they believe.

[dew_drop]

An exhortation: is an attempt to arouse or incite, as by appeal, argument or admonition. That which is spoken in exhorting; admonition ; earnest advise. See synonyms under counsel. See exhort

Exhort: To urge by earnest appeal or argument; advise or caution strongly.
------------------------------
The Book of Hebrews is a letter of Exhortation.

(In closing the exhortation written to the Church, the writer speaks in Hebrews Chapter 13 Verse 17.

Obey your leaders & submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy & not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. )

In order to understand this obedience and submission to those who were leading - you have to read the letter and see what the message is that is being conveyed by the writer and why it is that the people and what it is that the people were to submit to - so as to obey their leaders.

Regarding the leaders - they keep watch over your souls and they answer to a higher authority than themselves because it says - as those that will give an account.

But what is the letter of exhortation about?

Hebrews 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard , lest we drift away from it,

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but certain terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

Any one who sets aside the Law of Moses dies with out mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son Of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace.

The admonition has to do with going on willfully sinning - every soul that sins suffers tribulation.

tribulation: a condition of affliction & distress: suffering; also that which causes it. See synonyms under grief, misfortune tribulare (thrash) tribulum (a threshing floor) root of terere (rub & grind)

Those things that should not be named among us are - immoralities, lying, perversions, thefts, defrauding one another - of which all know to participate in or practice such things bring about suffering & grief of every kind and all kinds of losses & miseries,

Submit yourselves therefore to one another in the fear of the Lord. This submission & obedience has to do with not going on sinning in these things that should not be because we were delivered from the penalty of death, the wages of sin thru the blood of Jesus Christ. Having died to our old self , raised as new creatures, having been given from God a new nature that grows in love for God and out of our love for God, love for our neighbor.

The battle we face in resisting sin as body of believers in Christ - the answer in overcoming this war with the flesh is in the book of Romans.

We know that if we do sin , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ who ever lives to intercede for us with the Father. But sin is not to be excused.

Matthew Chapter 24 The Lord Jesus instructed those that were spiritually related to one another - do not be called leaders.

However if you are not yet walking in the Word of the Lord - if you have leaders, and they correct you regarding sin , submit to them and do not go on sinning.

The ministry was not given authority by God to run your life or to set up relationships between you as a means of carnally ruling over you, or you carnally ruling over one another, to make decisions for you or for you to make decisions for your spiritual brother or sister as to whether they should marry or not marry, what to eat or not eat, what to celebrate or not celebrate, who to visit or not to visit, who to avoid or not to avoid , what job to take or not to take, what you should do with your money, The Lord Himself has commanded & instucted us how we are and are not to be related to one another and how we are to relate to our Father who is in heaven.

but if your brother tells you to tell the truth and not to lie, submit to him, if you are sinning and your brother sees you sinning and he rebukes you ( points out your sin) then submit to him so as to stop sinning for it is those things already named - that are not to be named among us - that defile us.

This is how we submit to one another in the fear of the Lord.

[jlintott]

There has been alot of corruption which has resulted from a mixture of scriptural principles with ambition.

A person doesn't have to look very far to see that much has gone astray through the years.

Quick Picks:

-The Inquisition

-Condolences

-Today's "name it, and claim it doctrine"



The point which I have for your consideration is NOT to say "Jesus isn't Lord", or "church is the bad thing".
Everybody in this country can believe what they want, and go to the church of their choice.
That is nice.

But, When sheep are slaughtered for personal gain, I just can't be submissive to that lifestyle, no matter how entrenched, and right it may seem at the time.

Take a stand for accountability. Let accountability begin in the house of God. I hope God purifies like a consuming fire sometimes.

One thing that seems pretty obvious to me is that these jezebel type control-freaks expect those under them to behave like complete idiot-bozos. A weak-willed person is not really what God had in mind when the submission card is played.

-JL

[themissinglink]

Well stated JL.

Accountability is something no one will escape, though some men's judgment goes before them.....surely and INDEED all will be found out. Nothing hidden that shall not be revealed. Best to enter as in agony into RIP while He can yet be found, before we have no further recourse at the gravesite itself !

For the sake of sheep led to slaughter, we weep, travail and believe. ~Link

[dew_drop]

Good comments.

one of the problems that exists is - that when people are under the influence of misconceptions about authority and about obedience they go along with things as long as they do not experience anything that would cause them to question those that are spiritually leading them.

Take a $20 dollar bill. A counterfeiter tries to create an exact image of what the real $20 bill looks & feels like. The way to learn how to tell the difference between what is real & what is counterfeit is you study and get to know the real bill then you can spot the counterfeit.

The concept of submitting yourselves to one another in the fear of the Lord is a valid relationship.

We see that taking this truth & mixing it with a couple of other truths - the ministry of the TLW church has wrongly applied it to mean that the members are to surrender their free wills, and give up their right to make decisions for themselves in their every day lives and living of life. They have been & are led to not trust their own brains, to not think for themselves or to wall out any thought that would cause them to doubt the ministry - this is how the ministry fights against loosing the position they have taken for themselves as being the Lord over those the Lord says they are to be related to as brothers and sisters.

Which, when you study the Word & instructions that The Lord Himself gave, recorded in the Scriptures you see that the submission & obedience that the ministry has taught and led the people to believe is the will of God - is in error - is in opposition to the Word of Christ.

One of the problems that also has influenced the members and the ministry is they have made one another out to be in their thinking more than they are and more than they ought to be to one another.

If you look at the meaning used for "love" - in - thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart & also thou shall love thy neighbor as thy self. There is a fine line of difference between the love we are to have for God & the love we are to have for our neighbor.

When the love we have for one another is greater for one another than it is for God - the spirit of Idolatry enters into the equation.

And this is why the people have a difficult time accepting or seeing that they are sinning against the Lord. Because they equate the validity of the relationships they have with one another as a witness & a confirmation that they are right with God - because they love one another.

But if they love one another in the way they are to love one another they will have no other gods before Him.

Accountability - we each will give an account to God, ourselves for our selves.

God is patient and His Son Jesus Christ ever lives to intercede on our behalf and so we also must pray for our brothers and sisters, not as if we know something but from a place of having ourselves been saved from the lies we too in some way, in some degree, once believed.

[larry_bobo]

I think it is wise to look to Jesus’ teaching as the foundation for what was said later by the apostles. Jesus said in Matthew 23:8-12, “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

With that foundation, Peter says in 1Peter 5:2-4, “Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers – not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.”

Leading by example is much different than leading by control. I’ve often wondered why God, who created us, allows us the free will to choose whether or not we will follow Him. Many humans, who really have no authority in the first place, refuse to follow His example in their feeble attempts to play god to others. He certainly as Creator, has the right to control, yet He offers freedom of choice. Humans, in their insecurity, don’t seem to follow suit.

Whether we recognize it or not, we all serve something. Choosing to serve God is the only path to true freedom. Blessed are those who discover this freedom and focus their life on the narrow path. Obedience to God’s word really does bring life. Following the cravings of an old nature only leads to destruction.

I think accountability to other humans is highly overrated. The biggest problem is that one human cannot give another human a new nature. Tying up heavy loads on one another only wears each other out. After the dust settles, you’re just tired and nothing has changed. Unfortunately, we tend to take the lack of results out on God, even though He was not actually directing our actions in the first place. Obeying His real commands produces exciting fruit – especially after experiencing the futility of following another way. You can not deceive God like you can humans.

If you are willing to spend time with Him and His word and then put into practice what the Holy Spirit speaks to you individually, the kingdom will begin to open up for you. If you wait for someone else to do it for you, nothing happens. If JRS is a door opener to the kingdom by his example, and you’re walking the same path, you’ll find he left markers. If you think he still has to do something for you that you are supposed to do for yourself, chances are that you are still sitting in the same spot as when he died. The welfare checks have stopped. As with every man of God, he also left examples of what not to do – even if that sounds blasphemous to those trying to guard the “infallibility” of his words.

Any human that has ever impacted the earth has done so out of the time they have spent alone with God. Out of that relationship, they have become a functioning member of the Body and now have something to give. Passing second hand information back and forth between each other only gives an illusion of success. To me, the real test is: Are you feeding a new nature and killing the old one. That dynamic only seems to take place between you and God, apart from anyone else. You lay your own life down – nobody can do it for you. As we walk on with Him, His light shines through our lives to others.

[themissinglink]

Bravo.... and amen.

"You Gotta Serve Somebody!"

It's ALL about a new nature....... Link

[dew_drop]

Larry you wrote,
I think it is wise to look to Jesus’ teaching as the foundation for what was said later by the apostles.

Larry, I think by what you said in the above sentence - that I applied what I said wrongly - the truth being as you said- needs to be heard from , that the apostles were living & abiding in the Word & teachings they received from Christ.
----------------------------
You also wrote,
Passing second hand information back and forth between each other only gives an illusion of success.

What 2nd hand information are you referring to you? Could you please give an example so that I can better understand what you are saying?
-----------------------

In Shepherding the flock, by what I have read in the Scriptures, the ministry that was given as a gift to the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors & teachers, they were more involved in their relationship with the flock that they were responsible for, than just leading by an example.

John 13 :4-8
....Jesus rose from supper, & laid aside His garments & taking a towel, He girded Himself about, Then He poured water into the basin & began to wash the disciples feet & then to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.

And so he came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, "Lord do you wash my feet!"

Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you shall understand hereafter,"

Peter said to Him, "Never shall you wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."

John 13:12-17 And when He had washed their feet & taken His garments & reclined at table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? "You call Me Teacher & Lord; & you are right, for so I am.

If then the Lord & the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.
"For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.

"Truly, truly I say, a slave is not greater than his master; neither is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.

[larry_bobo]

Hi Dew Drop,
What I mean by relating with second hand information is that it’s one thing to share your personal relationship with the Lord with someone and then point them in the direction where they can personally experience the same relationship with the Lord. It’s quite another thing to discuss the experiences others have had with the Lord but not really have enough of a firsthand relationship yourself so your life points them in the right direction. Many look to men they admire, both in the scripture and present day, but they are unable to walk it out in their own life so that they really have something to share. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony – our story, not somebody else’s story.

I think many Christians end up being dogmatic about doctrinal points that they’ve only heard about, not experienced personally with the Lord. The goal for everyone is a personal relationship with the Lord, not just doctrinal correctness. It is one thing to quote the 23rd Psalm and quite another to personally know the Shepherd and walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death with Him.

For example, for me to be sexually intimate with my wife is much different than reading a book about someone else being sexually intimate with her. I think our intimacies with God are much deeper and more personal than human intimacies. After all, He is our Creator – not our spouse - and this relationship with Him will continue throughout eternity.

The very first Commandment is that we have no other gods before Him. I think what He really is after is that nothing comes between you and Him in an intimate relationship. He does not want anything to separate us from Him. It’s not a command that you can honor from afar. You have to love Him first above everyone and everything. All the other commands hang on this. Without first experiencing His love for you, you will not be able to love another correctly.

The gift ministries in Ephesians were given to equip the body for the work of service, not the other way around. The body is the one that’s supposed to be doing the work. The best example I know is to compare it to a sports team. The manager equips the players, but he’s on the sidelines. A good manager will push his players to become something much greater than they would ever be on their own. In fact, on the typical team the players are much better at the sport than the manager. A good leader should be asking how he/she can better serve others to fulfill the call of God on their lives instead of fleecing them to fulfill a personal agenda.

When Jesus washed the disciples’ feet, he warned about the Gentiles building hierarchies and lording their positions over others. He washed their feet as a servant and by example commanded them to do the same for each other. In the kingdom, the servant is the greatest. Nobody seems to fight over who gets to be the servant. There is plenty of growth opportunity available if you are in the upwardly mobile mindset of the kingdom. You know there has been a death in the old nature when just to serve is enough. And by the way, all those demons that you used to scream at until your veins popped out, that never seemed to respond to your high level words from God spoken from your lofty place in the heavenlies, well, they flee seven ways from an obedient servant to the pit of insignificance.

[dew_drop]

Thanks, Larry bobo,

That helped me to better see what you were expressing. clearly spoken.

Sherry

[dew_drop]

Dear Larry bobo,

In your answer to me, in your last letter, you wrote in closing,

And by the way, all those demons that you used to scream at until your veins popped out, that never seemed to respond to your high level words from God spoken from your lofty place in the heavenlies, well, they flee seven ways from an obedient servant to the pit of insignificance.

Larry, I can't tell if you are saying to me that I, when I write, come from a high lofty place and that by what I write, how I write, I am not effective because I am not simply an obedient servant, or if you were speaking and saying what you were saying - because you were thinking about the way you used to once prophecy yourself and you were trying to show what you learned . Your letter was addressed - Hi Dew Drop,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your 1st message, you closed with this thought,

Any human that has ever impacted the earth has done so out of the time they have spent alone with God. Out of that relationship, they have become a functioning member of the Body and now have something to give. Passing second hand information back and forth between each other only gives an illusion of success. To me, the real test is: Are you feeding a new nature and killing the old one. That dynamic only seems to take place between you and God, apart from anyone else. You lay your own life down – nobody can do it for you. As we walk on with Him, His light shines through our lives to others.

While what you wrote I believe is true,
I referenced Jesus washing the disciples feet because I belive this shows that we as disciples of Christ, in calling Him Lord and Teacher, that He Himself has given us a more personal example of what our relationship is to be with one another in the faith.

Jesus took all of his garments off and laid them aside, he girds himself with a towel - ( gird to surround with a belt or a girdle, to encircle , hem in. To prepare ones self for action. to clothe, equip.)

Then He pours water into a basin - significant of the washing of His Word. We wash one another's feet with His Word.

This is the example He gives us as to how we are to serve one another.

Naked for a moment then girded with a towel readied and equiped to take action to serve one another by washing one another's feet with His Word.

No body really wants to wash somebody's feet and no one really wants to have some one washing their feet - except for those who no longer are able to reach & wash their own feet, except for some one who can't care for themselves,
it still must be humbling to have this help, even in knowing what your own need is.

But we do this because we love Him and because we love our brother because He is Lord & Teacher & He said this is what we ought to do, if we hear the Lord and know we should do this, we will do this.

He didn't ask the disciples permission to wash their feet , He just starts doing it and when He gets to Peter , Peter says no way and for what ever reasons we have for not allowing our brother to wash our feet, the Lord answers that "no" with, If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."

So here is where our free will to choose come in. If this is the truth too, in light of this, we should ask our selves , are we willing to give ourselves to serving one another, in this intimate relationship with the Lord?

With Love,
Sherry

[jlintott]

Larry,

I Like what you recently posted. It has resonance.

Still, there are those who would just love to take the little ones for what they can get.
We sometimes learn only through our mistakes.
It is sometimes tough going thru spiritual rehab, only to fall back into the same 'ole thing, all over again.
I like the concept of the source being God. Sometimes, we rush it too much, and cling to somebody else's 50/50 concepts, only to see those things leaving us high, and dry, & fail us in the long run.
There still must be a balance between being alone with God, and on the other side, having the input from others.

It's been a long road to walk, and there is more of it before reaching the the headwaters.
Alot of peoples have fallen by the wayside. They started out with with a great vision, wonderful dreams, only to become deeply disillusioned by the polluted downstream waters.

Naboth thought he had a choice.

-JL

[jargon631]

i miss going to church about as much as i miss root canal...fd

[mike_j]

i miss going to church about as much as i miss root canal...fd

You like root canals? ;)

[larry_bobo]

Hi Sherry,
I’m sorry for creating the confusion. I started out trying to answer your questions and then ended up in generalizations about TLWF that were not meant to be directed at you. I’m aware you are no longer in the fellowship and I was just making light of how ineffective our violent intercession and lofty views of ourselves were. There are much more effective ways of walking with God that actually work.
Larry

[dew_drop]

Hi Sherry,
I’m sorry for creating the confusion. I started out trying to answer your questions and then ended up in generalizations about TLWF that were not meant to be directed at you. I’m aware you are no longer in the fellowship and I was just making light of how ineffective our violent intercession and lofty views of ourselves were. There are much more effective ways of walking with God that actually work.
Larry
---------------------------------------
Thanks Larry,
For explaining where you were speaking from, because In hearing
when I 1st read the statement I asked you about, your words had struck me with a blow.
Even so, I looked 1st to examine & see if I in some way I was needing to change how I make a presentation of what I write, when I write.

While it is true I am absent from the body where the Lord set me in to the body and where I grew up in the faith, yet I realize that I am still apart of that body in spirit, though I may be absent.

There were 7 churches - locations where they gathered and in reading I saw that a single house hold of people were also considered (a church) by the apostles, I saw this in some of the letters of the apostles, I was reading this last week.

Why did it strike me with a blow? - because I am one of a many membered body, and I know that His house is to be a house of prayer and I know that we do not have because we do not ask, That God hears the prayer of a righteous man, and if we ask Him for anything from this place and ,"not doubting," He will give it to us.

I experienced when I was 8 years old & again for a season of 7 years in these last years , He gave me what I asked Him for (a physical manifestation) literally of what I asked Him for, when I asked for it and even before I asked, He knew my needs and what I asked Him for was something I could ask Him for as My Father In Heaven.

If we prophecy we prophecy in part & when we become mature, we will no longer need the gifts, and prophecy will be done away with, when the Perfect comes.

The angels add incense to the prayers of the Saints - so something is not yet complete, our prayers don't smell good, and the angels even help us by adding incense to our prayers so by the time they reach the Lord they are a sweet aroma.

May we also help one another. May we be willing to examine our selves to be able to see & recognize our own needs, in light of the Word of the Lord.

With Love,
Sherry

[jargon631]

You like root canals? ;)


no...they are agonizing...just like church...but i would still rather sit through one than go to ANY church...fd

[larry_bobo]

I recently had a pleasant conversation with a family in TLWF that I had not seen for a few years. They were excited about the recent openness to other churches that had been taking place, especially to an individual in Florida. Later in the conversation they mentioned several who had “come back to the Body” and my question to them was, “If you do not think you are exclusively the Body, how is it that if someone leaves TLWF and fellowships with other Christians, they have left the Body? I know TLWF is referred to as the Body as a matter of terminology, but I also think there is an incorrect second class status implied to those who are not currently in the fellowship.

It’s interesting to me that there is a change in the way relationships take place outside the church walls of TLWF. Why is it that some people will turn and go the other direction if you meet them at the store, but if you show up at a church service they are so glad to see you? I don’t put much weight on either response because I think people are just doing what they think the leadership would have them do in the flow of the “current word” instead of an honest expression of their own heart.

As Sherry mentioned, there remains a connection with those in TLWF. For me it’s that we are all members of the Father’s family, wherever God has positioned us in His Body. Factions and divisions or denominations in mainstream Christianity are actually evidence of the fruit of the flesh, not evidence of the Holy Spirit’s work. The thought that you can separate the hand from the rest of the Body so that it doesn’t lose it’s “handness” is absurd. All the parts need all the other parts or the whole Body suffers. The real problem is that men have been drawing other men after themselves since the early church.

From a personal standpoint, I have more to give as a result of connecting with many parts of the Body. There were many answers I desperately needed that were just not available in TLWF. Perhaps the greatest answer though was the re-establishing of my personal relationship with the Lord, where I had allowed a human substitute, who though sincere, was powerless to help.

[dew_drop]

Yes, you said it perfectly, I have not seen any one in the market but the last time I visited the church, in the late 90's was at Southgate of Grace Chapel, and I stayed with the Beatty's, cooked them fried chicken dinner, slept on the couch in the living room. Fellowshipped with them and they were just as they always were in how they related to me. I was family and needed a place to stay for the night and they showed me the same hospitality that we all used to show one another.

Brother Charles Beatty wanted me to attend the Saturday night service and I did walk through the church before the service and saw some of the dear brothers and sisters, but brother Beatty did not tell me that he had to ask permission from the shepherds for me to attend the Service.

Brother David Bush was in charge, the other Shepherds were out of town, Brother Beatty was given the o.k for me to be able to attend the service. But I did not attend because it was not right for them to qualify or disqualify me to enter the house of the Lord. I was received & accepted under scrutinizing conditions and that was not o.k.

As a non profit organization I believe, the law requires the door of the church be open to all.

I saw that they were not subject to the laws of the land in this . So I did not subject myself to them. And it was really more than this, it was really quite horrible and I was not willing to be treated this way, to go to church.

Brother Beatty's home door was still wide open to me even after I decided not to attend the service, we went home and ate chicken together.

Does any one know if brother Beatty & his children still are actively involved in the church? Good Family all of the Beatty's.

I too believe that we are members of one another in the faith and that the body is every where - even where 2 or more gather in His name , He says He will be there. I believe one can always find some one who loves God and loves talking about Him and loves sharing together their faith in Him, whether you attend a church or not, we are still connected by the Spirit of the Lord to one another as members of His body.

[themissinglink]

Hi Sherry,
I’m sorry for creating the confusion. I started out trying to answer your questions and then ended up in generalizations about TLWF that were not meant to be directed at you. I’m aware you are no longer in the fellowship and I was just making light of how ineffective our violent intercession and lofty views of ourselves were. There are much more effective ways of walking with God that actually work.
Larry

Aloha to you both! I have just been sharing on the footwashing principle you brought up Sherry, and yet the flow as the Lord impacted me, was the correction to presumptuous and mixed fire religiously putting on the show of footwashing, for the actual reality of the Lord Himself being free to move through that New nature to be the genuine footwashing that He began and wants to continue through us. (I know this is want you are indicating, so please know my comments are in honor not disrespect to the heart you are believing to impart.)

So I fully agree with the articulation of all Larry shared --which is of course what the Living Word came to escort us to, as the heart of John yearned for and died having held the promise but without seeing our immaturity leave the level of screaming at devils, (as Larry so perfectly put it), and yield to the fullness of the Intention of God formed within us by applying all to develop the Relationship that must be the forerunner of All that must come---which will be the True Body Ministry, ---and not a mixed childish version in our religious conscience. I believe if John had taken God up on walking away from us to abide with Him, he would have known the absolute Peace from conflict that the Maturity formed within him would have exercised. His contact and oneness with all our mixed natures continued the conflicted access, ad nauseum, but it was an act of Love declaring as only Love could, that in enduring all things, and hoping all things, the True Fruit will ultimately overtake our paths.

Larry, you are proof he was correct in acting out his faith. Sherry, you are correct in the plan of the Flow that must be released in action. The gap between the Vision and the Pure execution is closing by the Grace of God and the indomitable Purpose of His Grace toward us. We live to see the strange fire obsoleted in the Perfect focus of His Consuming Fire, having its Way in us, and then through conscecrated Hands that no longer have points of contact in our old nature to the access of the enemy. Indeed when he comes, he finds nothing in Me, will be the declaration of our beings hidden in Him, as He flows freely through us, to wash feet with far more than good intentions and preliminary obedience.

As Larry pointed out, it is the Heart of the Servant formed in us through the Intimacy within His consuming Fire that leaves us hidden in plain sight, effectively and beyond the reach of the enemy, while HIs Virtue finds free course through yielded and unblocked vessels. It is a Mystery and a Glory being accomplished in our willingness, and even that, not of ourselves. I thank my God that He removed my family by unwitting servants, from the center of mixed multitude that was all of our baggage--to grow in a Wilderness meant to produce Mercy that overtakes Judgment. May it be done in us, according to His Good Pleasure, and without Measure unto the Glory of God, in an Hour where things MUST be cut short in Righteousness.

It is a privilege and an honor to meet with you all "in the Air!!!"

The synergism is the Divine Appointment of the Lord Himself!
Malama pono, gg

[dew_drop]

Thanks GG,

for your input - will think about what you said more when I have some time to think on it, I mighta been a little religious on the foot washing, I don't know but open for sure for correction.

Living & showing the way by example is absolutely one more good expression of how to lead.

I too, like Larry found that having my relationship restored with the Lord directly - was the key to a whole new healthy personal spiritual life that was not dependent on a man telling me how to think or what to think or even what to do or not to do.

I was servicing one of my accounts this week & out of the blue my customer started telling me how she had just been cornered by one of her customers and was pinned down & could not escape the man who was talking to her about religion.

I had never discussed the Lord with her & as she was telling me about her thinking, how she thought - I realized she was angry with God about how He was or what He was not that she thought He should be, if there really was a God. She was talking to me about this to see what I thought & if I agreed with her in what she was telling me. She was troubled.

When we parted she was at peace with God & herself. She doesn't go to church & she may never attend or be apart of a church & I did not press in any direction because I am not sure going to church is the answer. She had a lot of good reason's for not going to church.

People just open up & pour their hearts out.

Be ready to give an answer to every man that asks you about the hope that is in you. I am not sure but walking with God ourselves may be all that we need to do and evangelizing is as simple as living your own life in the Lord and then if any one draws near & asks about the hope that's in you , that's when you answer.

[themissinglink]

I believe that is precisely right....to every man that asketh! And we wash the atmosphere's feet with our own Relationship.....which does cause people to pour their hearts out!

(I am certainly not ruling out an ultimate footwashing, either, where the situation permits/requires, but believe for His Impact to be far more unubstucted and effectual when that situation arises~and THAT by His Faithfulness to remove those obstructions that so easily beset us. ~no rules includes no limitations for -or against- anything the Lord is in the mood to do--to HIS Glory!--without having to hurdle the vainglorious old nature! :-) Love, gg