Pastor Murray Gun Audio

[kimberlyfredrick]

I ran across this today and it has really shaken me up. I have studied with him for years. The address is as follows(you must type it in exactly as it appears. When you get to the page, scroll down to the third paragrpah and click onto the underlined words in blue. It will take you to an adio that is only a few seconds long, but very disturbing. I am still shaking from it.) http:/www.carm.org/chapel/shepherds_chapel.htm

[smyrna]

I already know what it is.
It's the audio of when the man who passed himself off as a student was allowed into the studio for a taping of the broadcast, then began to disrupt the program (being aired live at the time) and Pastor Murray, said "Here, take this nine millimeter to that boy!" (as the incident was mostly off camera, we don't know if that man had a gun himself, or a knife, only that you can hear him scuffling with the studio people)

What you should be more disturbed about Kimberly, is that Pastor Murray not only needs to keep a gun in his desk, but also needs security at his Church, and also at the large gatherings each year for Passover meetings and Fall Fellowship meetings.

Where do the threats come from? All those 'holy Christians' who feel the need to send the SC death threats in the mail, over the phone, and as the man who infiltrated the studio did, cause a disruption of a live TV broadcast, and scuffled with those working in the studio.

We all have a right to defend ourselves. In the city, we pay taxes to hire our protection with police. In the country, and the Murray's grew up in rural Arkansas, everyone has a gun.

To date, there has not been one recorded instance where a Chapel student pulled a stunt like that, say, like infiltrating the TBN studios, or sent death threats to Benny Hinn or some other fundamentalist minister.

So who is it that acts like crazed cult members?
You got it! Enemies of pastor Murray and the SC, not the other way around. Think about it.

In closing, carm.org's coverage of the incident was as slanted as you can get:

"Unfortunately, it is rubbing off on his followers and this is particularly troublesome since there is a recording of him pulling a gun on someone who disagreed with him in a teaching setting."

Posing as a friendly chapel student, standing up and yelling "blasphemy"! and causing a disturbance during a live broadcast, and scuffling with studio workers trying to show him the door is not exactly an honest way of describing the incident as "disagreeing with Murray in a teaching setting."

CARM is definitely not the place you want to learn about the SC. See my coverage of CARM at http://www.scripturetruth.homestead.com

[kimberlyfredrick]

Yes, smyrna, I agree that that man had no place in Pastor Murray's presence with a gun and that by no definition of the word could that man be a "True Christan" of God. I too live in the south, Mississippi in fact. But I love God with all my heart and I do understand what the word Christian is to mean. It means christ man or man of christ. It means that we must follow Christ to the letter. Every teaching in which he gave us we must obey. When questioning the validity of others we must ask if Christ would have done that or said that before we act accordingly. We must use this as our base core for who we are and how we behave, as well as how we are to discern others. Christ would have never said what Pator Murray said. Never! So why would one of Christ's "true disciples" behave this way? Can the annointed of God behave this way without repenting to God as well as publically? There is no memtion of any apology on the Shepherd's Chapel website. And as for the one who posted the audio on his website. The only reason I can see is to bring the truth into light.(I posted the audio link here and my only motive is truth) Pastor Murray did say to put a 9MM gun on a young boy. Why did he not say first, "Everybody get down, He's got a gun in his hand?' Logic dictates that this guy <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> Arnold off and nothing else. Putting a gun on someone is never right. He had time to add the words 9MM but not warn his congregation to protect themselves? Would not the men which apparently apprehended the young man already know to pull a gun on a man who already had a gun in his hand to begin with? Jesus taught a nonviolent way of life. It is the very foundattion of his ministry. He told us not to live by an eye for an eye anymore. He showed us a better way. We are even to give a robber what ever he asked plus more! And when are faith is challenged, we are to keep non-violent to the death.(we are not susspose to fight for our physical life with vilolence). Mathew 11:27-28 "Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach in the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" Mathew 5: 38-46 "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you not to resist ab evil person. Burt whoever slaps you on your check, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your clock also. /and whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love you enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you abd persucute you, that you may be sons of you Father in Heaven; for he makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust"

[angie0401]

Kimberly,
I think you're fibbing. You might live in the south, but Texas is not Mississippi. Why the untruth?

[smyrna]

You speak Kimberly as an ideologue. You may wish to ask yourself the question as to why Peter was even carrying a sword, certainly Jesus knew he was, when he cut the ear off the high priest in the garden.
You may also wish to ponder the incident in John 2:15, where Jesus Himself fashioned a scourge, and proceeded to drive the money changers out of the temple, turning over their tables and throwing their money all over the ground.
Are you prepared to say Jesus contradicted or disobeyed the Word of God, by not turning the other cheek and letting the moneychangers just continue their activities?

You have a right to protect your property, and you have a right to defend yourself. I suppose, based upon your ideals, that we should allow people to threaten and harm our families, or charge into our houses or places of business and just let them
steal, vandalize, and beat us.

The verses you quote are taken way out of context, and do not reflect the original intent of the lessons being taught.

[kimberlyfredrick]

smyrna, I went to you "blog" website from the link in your first message to me. Unless my puter was malfunctioning you had a page called "House of Whacks" which contained one picture of Godchild aka Vivian as a clown and a 2-3- second clip of I quess her saying, "I try to think and nothing happens". Is this all of the tape on her" It is shorter that the one posted of Pastor Murray. What did she say before and after you cut her clip out of her message? Syrna, Are you a child of God or one of Murray? Christ would never have honored himself with a website such as this. It is most unchristian. God is love. The fruit of true Christians is also love. I see no love from Murray or from you. Satan has millions of followers. Millions of people he can call "fruit". He can air 24/7 but his fruit is of rotten figs. He can have resorces, fame, power, anything he wants to make himself "look" blessed of God. but, his fruit is not of love. It never will be. I so much want to see good fruit from Murray and yourself. I am afraid that this Murray audio as well as your website reflect rotten, unsalted figs. God is love. Jesus preached love. True love comes only from God. It is the ONE thing Satan cannot duplicate. It is also the one word we humans have misused and abused to were the true meaning of the word seems almost unreconizable.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Angie, I do live in Mississippi. I have no idea what you mean by Texas. Texas is in the south but I do not know were you are drawing Texas out of the previous discussions. Pastor Murray is in Arkansas. Would you please tell me what I am fibbing about that has reference to Texas? (I really don't know!)

[angie0401]

Your posting address shows Texas, not Mississippi.

[kimberlyfredrick]

I only follow the teachings of our Heavenly Father and of our Messiah Jesus the Christ. I have taken nothing out of context. Jesus told him to put the sword away! And Jesus drove out the money changers because they were disrupting the true word of God.People could not pray there in the manner that was designed from God . That is one of the reasons God finally took their temple away from them for the last 2,000 years. (it was being used to glorify man and mans needs, not Gods) Are you saying that because of that one action, had Jesus had a gun he would have used it?I have faith in the word of God. I do not need a gun for protection. I have the armour of God and his word to protect me. I will not covet what satan covets. he laughs when we use violence. He laughs when we maim and kill. I take Mathew 5 literally. I follow what Christ taught.} What Jesus said is good enough for me. And as for faith, I have had 2 guns and 1 knife pulled to my head and to my throat in my life and through faith not 1 hair on my head was harmed. Not 1. God is awesome!

[kimberlyfredrick]

Angie, thanks for the heads-up on that. I will look into it. I do not know where Texas came from, or if I can change it. I will certainly try. }

[smyrna]

Kimberly,
You did not answer my questions about Peter with his sword or Jesus and the incident with the moneychagngers. You also actually think Godchild is a clown and that the audio on my website is really her, when it is actually Curly from the Three Stooges.

In addition, you wrote in your very first post on the Detractors thread "Please do not think of me as a detractor. I only want to know the truth. I love God so very much and I also love pastor Arnold Murray. I have worshiped with him for years."

But all of a sudden you now say that "I see no love from Murray or from you. Satan has millions of followers. Millions of people he can call "fruit". He can air 24/7 but his fruit is of rotten figs. He can have resorces, fame, power, anything he wants to make himself "look" blessed of God. but, his fruit is not of love. It never will be."

You are not being honest. It's is like you are saying that after years of worshipping with Pastor Murray, all of a sudden you have this completely different perception of him.

Don't try blaming that on the gun incident. Because Murray has said on many occasions that if someone were to walk up to you on the street, and punched you in the nose, you have a right to defend yourself. He also said that if soemone breaks into you house that you and your friends, "Smith and Wesson" should take care of him.
So your claim that you've worshipped with him for years and now claim that he is a rotten fig tells me that you are another sneaky, deceptive, lying imposter who has come here to join the others who want to be a Chapel critic.
Well you just go ahead, we welcome you. Because you will, with you own words, as you already have, show us that you have no credibility, and you have done that in record time.

[godchild]

kimberlyfredrick, Your posts are so refreshing. Someone who has followed am/sc and yet is willing to discuss his words and actions without defending him as if he is more than a man.

I've never said "I try to think and nothing happens". Smyrna thinks he is impressing people with his foolishness. If he can think of nothing better to do with his time, let him.

I have heard the tape also. It is repugnent, to say the least. I commend you for your courage in speaking out.

All of the threats smyrna speaks about is hearsay. I'd like to see evidence of this. Of course, it won't be forthcoming, but it sure sounds good, doesn't it. Once again, I am reminded of the mormons who call joe smith a martyr, yet one of his companions during the shootout that killed him, said he had a pistol and "never missed his mark" when shooting back.

I have never seen anywhere that the man in the am incident had a gun. If he had, you can bet am and his cronies would have had him arrested. That's more hearsay.

[godchild]

Why would anyone say they were from Mississippi if they are from Texas? Sounds like more paranoia.

Kimberly, I was going to warn you, but I see I am too late. Anyone who speaks against am is an instant enemy and accused of whatever these folks can imagine in their dirty little minds. Pay them no mind. You get used to it after awhile. It's a tactic, that's all, to try and intimidate. They are dismal failures at it, and you will find yourself suddenly attacked always by two and more will quickly follow.

[smyrna]

Nice try on Godchild's part.It's obvious that Kimberly has never been any friend or student of the Chapel. So let her align herself with Godchild. Maybe we can call them the "fab six"
I won't dignify Godchild's comments. They are as usual too ridiculous to address, and everyone knows she is a major league goofball.

[godchild]

See what I mean about smearna's foolishness. He thinks we get insulted when he calls us the fabulous five. Kimberly, you'd be in good company.

[smyrna]

First, Kimberely claims she has been a longtime student of the SC, and has worshipped with Pastor Murray for years. Then she accuses Pastor Murray of being a "rotten fig" evil, and full of hate.
She won't answer any questions, and all I was trying to do was show her her reasoning was wrong.
If you look at her posts, about turning the other cheek and letting your enemies do whatever they want to you, she is really showing is that for her to be right, God must be wrong!
But there is no sense in trying to reason with her. She didn't come here for honest discussion. She came here to criticize the Chapel. She posed as a long time student. But her anger got to her, and she exposed her true reasons for coming here.

The problem is, she appears to be just another whack job. After all, she actually thinks that the voice of Curly on the Three Stooges,which I used to make a spoof web page about Godchild, is actually Godchild's Voice!
Here's the proof, from her post above:

"Unless my puter was malfunctioning you had a page called "House of Whacks" which contained one picture of Godchild aka Vivian as a clown and a 2-3- second clip of I quess her saying, "I try to think and nothing happens". Is this all of the tape on her" It is shorter that the one posted of Pastor Murray. What did she say before and after you cut her clip out of her message?
If she isn't even capable of being able to tell a man's voice from a woman's, and can't tell that the page she was referring to from my site was done in jest, then wonder not that she is incapable of any intellectual discussions, and is only here to heckle people, and join the "fab five."

Welcome Kimberly, you will fit in quite nicely here.

[godchild]

See what I mean about smearna's foolishness. He thinks we get insulted when he calls us the fabulous five. Kimberly, you'd be in good company.

smearna admitted he lied when he posted words on his website claiming I said them. What an idiot. He shows nothing he says can be thought of as truthful, and certainly not to be taken seriously. You would think he could come up with a better defense for am than that, but it just shows how immature he is. I wonder if he has invited am to see this site, created on his behalf? I'd be willing to bet am could care less, as long as they keep buying his books and tapes.

[smyrna]

Now Godchild has shown she also can't tell whether something was created in jest, or was meant to be a serious expose'

I'm beginning to understand that we are dealing with folks who, sadly, are mentally challenged.

By the way, it's now the "fab six." And I can't be happier!

[smyrna]

It's no use. Kimberly thinks she answered the questions to why Peter had a swaord by saying Jesus told him to put it back. My question is why did he have one in the first place?
Next, Kimberly tries to reason away the question as to why Jesus made a scourge and drove out the money changers, who were essentially theives. She says they were disrupting the Word of God.
So it's ok for Jesus to make a weapon and chase the money changers out of the temple for disturbing worship, but it's not ok to chase someone who was disturbing a religious broadcast out of the building.
Kimerberly is one confused person, and so she will fit in well with the fab five.
According to her logic, the money changers should have expected all those visiting the Temple to give them all their money, and it is ok for them to disturb the worship there.
So by Kimberly's way of thinking, Jesus was wrong!

[abiyah]

<font color="119911"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"></font>

Hi There Miss. Kimberly FREDRICK ! : )

And welcome to The Shepherd's Chapel Threads at The FACTNET message board. LOL ! Now, I'll for one get straight to the point here with you, in that I do not believe for one minute that you Study God's Word 'along with' The Shepherd's Chapel.... LOL ! I discern you to be quit the contrary indeed. : ) But hey ! That is A -O-kay Kimberly. I would hope that you have come here to discuss The Word of God, and not to just simply cause trouble with your audio of a past broadcast at The Shepherd's Chapel. I for one see what you are 'trying' to do [Mark 16:18], and this is why I do not even care to go and listen to that which you brought here. Because I ALREADY know that pastor Arnold Murray and ALL the Murray's, as well as all those that dedicate their time there at The Shepherd's Chapel love The Lord, and do indeed teach His Word and serve Him. I KNOW this because I have checked them out IN and WITH The Word of God.

Now, I see that in some of your posts you did infact "quote" Scriptures; Yet I consider that you have little understanding of much of which you have quoted, and because of your lack of understanding of those Scriptures, you made no valid point here. Sorry chic... LOL ! : )

As for pastor Arnold Murray, a truly, God loving man, who has dedicated his life to serve The Lord and teach His Word, is simply that the only way one can know exactly what pastor Arnold Murray and The Shepherd's Chapel is really all about is to Study The Word of God along with them for themselves, and see that it is God that has blessed this man to teach His Word. And yes Kimberly, I heard you when you said that you do Study The Bible with The Shepherd's Chapel and you also claim to "love pastor Arnold Murray" in another thread here... yet, I, myself doubt very highly that you do so. Sorry Kimblerly... for I do not mean to offend you. : ) The bottom line is that one must listen to a Bible teacher, and then they will know the true character of that teacher, as well as their intentions. You see when one does that, and then someone such as yourself Kimberly comes along and trys to harm the character of that teacher, your accusations will not stand against a true teacher of The Word, hear that ? WILL NOT STAND ! And shall have not harm the true character of that servant... do you understand that which I'm trying to make known to you Kimberly.... you are wasting your time with your poisonous darts, for they will have no effect on the reputation of a true servant of God. See that ? Got it ?

Yet, I think for you Kimberly it would be wise to know and understand this Truth.... in that our Heavenly Father knows your motive and can clearly see what it is you have come here to do and He knows exactly what you are doing, for He does not miss a thing, not anything, for indeed His Eyes do SEE ALL THINGS, even the things that you have come to these Shepherd's Chapel threads to do.

Psalm 33:13 - 15
" The LORD LOOKETH from Heaven; He beholdeth ALL the sons of men. From the place of His Habitation He LOOKETH upon ALL the inhabitants of the earth. "

Abiyah</font>

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Smyrna thinks he's able to read minds and intentions.
Smyna's wrong.
Smyrna has a tendency to narrate for others so that the reader is biased before they get to read very far.

Smyrna uses tactics that are easy easy to spot.

Maybe Mr.Murray should just have said ,:please remove the individual that is causing such a disruption."

I do however agree with Smyrna about the right to self defence.

CALL RIPLEY,I JUST AGREED WITH SMYRNA!
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

</font>}

[smyrna]

The post above by Munsun is one more reason he makes me laugh so much.
I never said that I am capable of reading minds. By Munsun stating that, it is he who believes he knows what I am thinking!

Munsun wrote pstor should have said: "Please remove that individual that is causing such a disruption."

I don't know how many of you have been a witness to on outbreak of violence in a public place. But for those who have, has anyone ever witnessed a bar fight, street fight, scuffles at sporting events or political gatherings, where anyone in those situations would say anything like that?

In addition, even on the tape you can hear the sounds of a scuffle, and by then that maniac was probably way out of control. As I said before, since there was absolutely no follow-up coverage in any medium that I know of, no one really knows whether that man was armed somehow. It doesn't even matter. He could have been six foot six, for all we know.

I've been to the Chapel, and sat in the studio. It is very small, maybe ten folding chairs. I'd say the room was about 20 x 20ft. That is about the same size as a typical boxing ring.

So that leaves little room to either get away from or even engage someone who is getting out of control, and doing it quickly. Add a weapon, and the situation gets very tense, I can assure you.

Now whacky Godchild won't believe this, since she doesn't even belief there is a Shepherd's Chapel Church complex.

But maybe Musnun can rethink what he said here.

Oh yeah, Godchild also doesn't believe Pastor Murray has ever received any threats.

That post where she said that really needs to be reposted on the Fab Six cast thread, the new place where I'm putting the most stupid utterances by cast members.

If I were in his position, and I even knew about some of the things that have been said about him by the whack jobs on this forum alone, I'd hire security.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Jesus suffered much worse.
Welcome to this generation.

I would rather think about Christ than most of what appears on these threads.
Psalm 119


</font>}

[smyrna]

No argument there Dave. But the focus in this thread is Pastor Murray, and the crosses he has had to bear to share what he has learned with us.

[ezekiel_37]

So, Pastor Murray was telling his security forces to subdue the detractor, as there was a scuffle....I doubt that Pastor Murray meant for his security to shoot the detractor, but rather to show the detractor the weapon(s) that they had, as this would show the detractor the level of security, making him stop his behavior and exit the service.

Mr Murray even continues for a brief moment after the outburst, and does not make that comment until the scuffle becomes loud enough for even us to hear through the poor quality audio file.


in His service
c

[danispeachy]

Oh I hate chimming in here anymore... but I gotta say... According to my research... there are no instances of violence on SC grounds. I didn't even find police reports regarding having to go to the Chapel for some problem. Granted I'm not the best slueth, so by all means if you have proof otherwise please provide it. Since the small audio that is passed around is cut short from what happened before and after and there is no video clip to show us what occured, there is no reason to assume that the Chapel has done anything wrong. For all you know the guy could have been in a Kung Fu stance ready to take on the security. Lord knows there have been plenty of instances of so called Christians murdering people. Maybe it was the threat of the gun that got the guy to leave. No one knows how they will react when their well being is on the line... but hey if you wanna lay down and let someone do whatever evil thought comes into their head, by all means...play the victim. I've managed to go through my entire life without being in a violent altrication, I have a feeling that when push comes to shove...I'm going to do whatever I need to do to protect myselves and those I love.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Hello Everyone. Godchild, thank you for your kind words and your concern for my well-being here on this post. I never meant to be such a stumbling block for others who study with pastor Murray. I had never heard of the incident with the audio and it really knocked me for a loop. I needed help in sorting it out and to come to terms with it. Luckily ,I did find another student of the Chapel who held my hand and walked me throught this rather difficult time. They told me that they to had doubts about Paster Murray when they first learned of the audio and helped me to reason through it in a healthy way. And you know what, I don't have to agree with all that happened to accept that it did happen and that thankfully Pastor Murray came out of the ordeal without being hurt. I have since seen the video and it really helped me to keep my faith in Pastor murray intact.I know that you don't like him, but you have to admit that his style of teaching really gets one to open their dusty old Bibles and prove him wrong or right. Regardless if one accepts his doctrines which are not "mainstream" they do make for. interesting discussions with others who do not know our Lord. I have found that using what some find Pastor Murray's "controversal" doctrines a great way to get non-believers and also children interested in the word of God. It makes the Bible come alive and so very interesting. As an example, when I first told my son about fallen angels, giants and the fact that we all "lived" before this Earth age you should have seen his face! He was so interested in the word of God it was all he wanted to talk about. As a mom, it made my heart sing!God is soooo awsome! Thanks again Godchild for worring about me. And to the rest of you who have accused me of purposely and with evil intent to defame Pastor Murry and his teachings, I am so very sorry for causing you to feel this way. Please forgive me for not explaining myself to a level were you could have understood me. It is hard for me to express myself with words only. If I could have inserted emotions and facial features, tone of voice etc. I might have been more effective. Again, I am truely sorry . kim}}

[godchild]

Kim. You had every right to question what you saw as an immoral act. You have now searched it out and are satisfied with the answer you have gotten. That is good.

I see scer's here state am tells them to search out things, study for themselves. They did not do this where your post was concerned. Instead, they made an assumption that you must be a liar. That is evidence of brainwashing on their part. Instead of seeing am as a man (and all men make mistakes), they defend him as if he is above reproach, and without full knowledge of who/what he is as a man other than what they hear on the radio or see on tv and listen to his tapes. They have placed a mantle on him reserved for the Lord, the only sinless one. This is dangerous, not only for their walk with the Lord, but to others they profess to of their undying devotion to a man.

They question the credentials of Godly men, yet defend am, who claimed credentials he does not have, then denied he said what was said to intentionally mislead. Why the lie? So then they change their tactic to say he only needs the credentials God gave him.

If that is the criteria to be a pastor, then call me a pastor. My calling is as legitimate as his. I don't want to hear the number of years he has over me or any other pastor. He has been calling himself a pastor from his beginning. Was he unqualified then for such a reason?

[smyrna]

Godchild twists the facts:
"They question the credentials of Godly men, yet defend am, who claimed credentials he does not have, then denied he said what was said to intentionally mislead. Why the lie? So then they change their tactic to say he only needs the credentials God gave him."

There is no reliable source that either confirms or denies Pastor Murray's doctorate in religious education. Therefore, it is dishonest, on Godchild's part (don't take my word for it, just do a study of her posts here at Factnet, and how many times she has misrepresented information about the Chapel)to claim she knows that Murray does not have a DRE.
As far as having God's credentials, if we as students say that Murray's obvious knowledge as a religious teacher is all he needs for us, that is our opinion and consdiering what is coming out of seminaries today, I almost hope he DOESN'T have any religious training at many of these schools!

Kimberely,

Your first posts here a few days ago did not help us to get aquainted. There were far too many ambiguities in your posts to make us comforatble with you as a proclaimed SC student. However, you explained yourself a bit better this time.
My advice to you is before you start taking Godchild's claims at face value, you should definitely research this personality by reading her posts and the many responses to them.
Now a word about my website at scriptretruth.homestead.com: Godchild says it is immature and unchristian. All I can say to that is she must be a very droll and boring person, for much of it was written in humor. I, at the same time, reveal many of the tactics Chapel opponents are clearly guilty of.
I have been in the process of reworking the site, but it is moving slowly because of other demands on my time. But I can assure you I can document all the claims I have made to counter the other websites that attack Pastor Murray and the SC using lies, distortion, deception by omission, and quite a few other sneaky, malicious tactics.

[llm]

Peters sword. Peter was a fisherman and probably never went anywhere without his blade. He probably felt naked without it. Big difference between this and a 9 mm. Peter did not carry a sword to do battle with Roman soldiers, or to cut off the religious leaders ears.

Peter's Sword:
1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh

2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword

a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke

b) a straight sword, for thrusting

[smyrna]

LLM probably will want to spin this verse as well, Luke 22:49 where it states that His followers asked, "Should we strike with our swords? LLM wants to act like some defense lawyer, and start trying to infuse doubt by questioning the size of the sword.
Whe the followers of Jesus said shall we strike with our swords,that pretty much eliminates any doubt as to whether they were all carrying fillet knives or not.
They were weapons, no matter how long the swords were, or whether they were curved, or whether they could carve a Tuna.
LLM is really a most ridiculous character.

For serious students of God's Word, may I point you to http://www.wcg.org/lit/ethics/War04.htm which covers the story of Peter's Sword quite well.

[llm]

So Jesus wants pastors and their followers to carry 9 MM's.

[plow_deep]

<font color="0000ff">"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, <u>But now,</u> he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: <u>and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.</u>"</font>

<font color="0000ff">"For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."</font>

Its pretty clear to me that the Lord Jesus Christ was teaching his flock to be prepared to <u>defend</u> and feed themselves while they wait on His return to set up His Kingdom here on earth.

(Message edited by plow_deep on August 25, 2006)

[smyrna]

Notice how llm offers a puerile deduction in response to all the scripture references that have been posted to show how off the wall he is?

It's a good thing llm does not have his own Church. Can you imagine? No burglar alarm,no locks on the doors. Hey, maybe he wouldn't even put guardrails on the stairway leading up the steps! After all, God will protect anyone from falling, right?
When you drive to llm's Church, you don't have to even wear seatbelts.

And if he taught in his Church stuff like how Jesus' feet will never touch the ground when he returns, or that the earth doesn't spin on it's axis, etc. and people who don't believe that way come to his Church to give him an ***whipping, then he will happily endure same. Yeah, sure.

What he may claim what he would do, and what would really happen are quite different.

I'd really hate to have llm as my father, because
he would never proctect me from kidnappers, bullies, or child molestors, because he would not be able to, because he would never be armed in any way.
What if he lived in the country, where he couldn't rely on police, as is the Shepherd's Chapel's case? No matter, because he believes God doesn't want him to take measures to protect himself.

What else should we expect from a disciple of the sci-fi channel?

[llm]

If someone did molest or kidnap your child, they would probably do it when your not able to protect them or do anything about it, so you better have some confidience in the police and the system to do something about it. I do believe God gives divine protection to his children, and guides their steps all the days of their lives.

And if you live in the country in Canada for instance it is the law that you must keep your guns chained under lock and key with the ammo removed. It doesn't offer you much response time if something happens. In the USA it seems the farm is a good place to steal a gun from when the farmer is not home.

Jesus never brandished a weapon, and rebuked his disciples when they tried to. Maybe SC would be more at home on the farm with Aryan Nations, or the KKK, or the Christian armed militias, and groups like that.

[smyrna]

I guess I'll have to invoke the acronym that is the only intelligent response to the assinine post by llm above-WOTNWR:

Waste Of Time, Not Worth Rebuttal.

It would take too many paragraphs to address all the stupid, ignorant comments llm has managed to squeeze into one brief post. He has raised stupidity and detachment from reality into an art form.
But this is what happens when a person spends their time visiting the lunatic fringe places in cyber-space,subscribing to far left ideologies, audacious conspiracy theoris, and other examples of lunacy.
I'm surprised he isn't cowering under his bed, fearing those mysterious black helicopters that he knows are soon to be buzzing over his house.

[llm]

My kingdom is not of this world [!]:

if my kingdom were of this world,

then would my servants fight....

(John 18:36)

[smyrna]

LLm's kingdom is on another planet, based upon his out-of-context usage of John 18:36.

And that fits very well with his self-declared mindset.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Hi Plow_deep, Could I bother you just a moment please? The scripture you quoted in your last post intrests me. Where could I find it and could you expound on it pleas}e? I seem to be having some trouble in that area and would like a better understanding of it. Thanks in advance! Kim

[kimberlyfredrick]

Found it. Luke 22:36-38. LOL(was being lazy earlier)

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
As a gun owner myself I just have to respond to some of what's been said.

First off every law abiding citizen of these United States has the right to carry and use for defensive purposes a firearm.

I myself have been trained in the proper use during a confrontation with an armed criminal.
There is no way that I would allow anyone to harm another if the oportunity arose that gave me the chance to imobilise the threat.

Our national laws allow that.

The first step in attaining complete dictatorial control over the general public is to disarm them.Once this is done the general public losses it's power to control an outlaw government.
Which is why we have the second amendment to the Constitution so we can prevent the Government from disobeying the will of the people and exerting undue control over us.

Canada is a socialist state.America isn't.
The police cannot protect you from anyone.
They are a cleanup crew at best.

We must be in control of our personal security and that of our fellow man.
---
It is better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it.
---
I also think it best that every law abiding American that wants to carry should.
First though,there should be a required safety and method of use course for each person to complete.
Most guns used to defend are not fired.
Criminals don't look for hard targets and don't want to get shot.So if you remove the guns from the citizens you increase criminal activity and victimisation of the public in general.

I'm all for owning and using guns when needed.
One more thing.
I'm a forty caliber guy myself.
Glock model 23.

I'm also a safe person to be around.

Just my 37 cents worth.(inflation and all)

Dave
</font>}

[smyrna]

I'm starting to like Mr. Munsun a little bit more every day.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Oh,oh,we better call Ripley,LOL.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifThanks Smyrna.

I think that in person we'd all probably get along better than we think.

Peace in Christ,
Dave

</font>}

[kimberlyfredrick]

Excelent post David! I myself own a 38 special and a double-barrel shotgun. I recieved my training as a child. I have owned a gun ever since I was 3! LOL

[smyrna]

Kimberly is an enigma,

She was "shaken" by the incident at the Chapel, and an 80+ year old man with a gun he would never have used unless another one was pointed at him. But on the other hand, she muses she owned a gun at the age of three,( I hope it was a squirt gun)which would leave most normal people shaking their heads in puzzlement at the parent's judgement.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Smyrna, why must you be so mean? I really do not understand you. The gun which I owned at the age of 3 was a family heirlom which was not given to me to play with. It in fact was a collectors piece which had never been shot. Why the belittling remarks to me and now to my parents? Why can't you give me a break and show some brotherly love? I am not your enemy and I don't wish you to be mine. Can we please be respectful of one another? I would like to call you friend.

[smyrna]

Look Kimberly, I'm not being mean, that is only your perception. But at the same time I don't pussyfoot around with people that are not making sense to me.
Maybe you are not acclimated to online discussions. It is a limited medium, we don't have the luxury of being able to hear voice inflections or see facial expressions on these boards.
I have a problem with the way this incident with Pator Murray was presented, as if he doesn't have the right to take steps to protect himself from whackos and nutcases.
As I said before, if I was Pastor Murray, I would beef up my security just based on reading the stuff that has been said about him here at Factnet.

[kimberlyfredrick]

He has every right to protect himself. I don't want anyone injuring him any more than you do. And as for the death threats you have said that pastor Murray has recieved. I did not know that this was going on. I think it is as shameful as you that he or anyone else cannot live in peace and must live under attack from others who do not share his views. Anyone who has ever listened to Pastor Murray knows that he never preaches hate. Come Lord, Come!

[smyrna]

Kimberly,
If you keep writing things like that,I can assure you that the Fab Five will not be very nice to you. And that is part of the point I wish to make.

The Chapel critics on this board have called us cult members, racists and hatemongers. But to the best of my knowledge, Chapel students have never been involved in going to other Churches and creating a disturbance, calling TV ministries and making death threats or even setting up our own discussion forums critical of other Churches and denominations.
Every single one of us SC students have come here to try and defend against the lies, misrepresentations, and false allegations levelled against the SC and us students.
Just take a look at some of the titles our friendly critics have authored:
The "Insane Lies That Pastor Murray Teaches" "AM/SC (Murray) Racist Stooges Identified" "Cult Leader Arnold Murray Is A Racist, Worse Than The KKK"


And we are expected just to let this stuff continue without offering any evidence to refute their false allegations? No one should be free to attack others with lies and falseehoods.

[kimberlyfredrick]

Smyrna, maybe a different approch would help. Ever try "killing them with kindness". I think all the mudslinging between both sides is a factor. Pastor Murray always says that we should teach chapter by chapter and verse by verse and and if we/them can't understand it, then put it on a shelf for later. And as for anyone not being very nice to me, that is their choice. I respect all views on doctrine, but I do not condone hateful remarks that have no business in a Christian discussion. If we are all Brethern in Christ, I think we should all act like it. We cannot glorify God with hateful dialogue. Why can't this be a place for a more healthy debate. If you read through the threads, mostly what you read is just ,'you'r beliefs are (insert insult), you stupid ****!' you get my drift. And as for the slanderous remarks like Racist and KKK, ask 'em for documentaion. When they can't provide one, leave that thread forever. never go back! Cased closed and on to a new topic.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Just a couple more comments on this "gun" incident.
My wife and I have three children all adults now,the youngest being 25 years old.
When the oldest was four or five,I taught them the responsibility of being a safe handler of firearms.

I put up a target that explodes dramatically
(quite an effective tool) to show them that this tool that had various uses was very powerful and should be used respectfully and with thoughtfulness.
It has stuck with them all their lives and I have never had any problems with "curiosity" that could lead to trouble because of lack of knowledge.

We used to have shooting clubs in our schools until some senseless individuals thought to have it forcibly removed from the curriculum.
Now look what the results are.
Before that there was never a problem with firearms and kids like there is now.

There is a sinister movement to abolish the very things that keep the fabric of our society constrained to reason-ability.

People don't know the history of this movement and it's origins of conception where it pertains to this country.

No wonder He said,"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."Hosea 4:6a

Pray for the peace of Israel,
Dave

</font>}

[smyrna]

Kimberly,

I understand your advice, but you present on overly simplistic view of our relationship with the anti-chapel folks here at factnet. It is very true that several of those who frequent the boards are amicable and openminded. We can agree to disagree and move on. But you really need to get educated on the group I call the Fab Five. Now before I go further, I do have to credit David Munsun, who I consider a part of this group. Lately we have been able to agree to disagree civilly.
But it is highly doubtful there will be any progress with the rest of that group. You really must study Godchild's posts and how everyone reacts to them, as well as LLM's.

We could send them flowers and candy, and greeting cards on every holiday, and they will still come back here and belabor us with their ignorant rants and raves, false accusations, and in the case of LLM, an over reliance upon left wing, conspiracy theory websites.

Godchild doesn't do much research either, and a great deal of her posts are only shoot-from-the- hip opinions based upon what her imagination is telling her on any particular day.

Arron has his brain welded to fundamentalist explanations of everything from a talking snake story to the rapture, and insists that we are all heretics.

Mostly, I ignore them, but if you do too much of that, their claims and allegations get more and more outrageous, to the point you begin to worry that others who come here may actually believe them.

If you engage them, they use all sorts of sneaky tricks that attempt to divert attention from the fact they can't answer questions, refuse to provide documentation, or otherwise hide the fact they are just plain wrong.

[llm]

My kingdom is not of this world
if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight....

(John 18:36)

I didn't take this out of context. It is a pretty general sweeping statement the Christ's kingdom is not of this world. It wasn't then and it isn't now. There is a difference between using a gun to protect yourself or your family in self defence, or your country in war; and being as representitive of Jesus Christ, and using a gun in presentation of the gospel. I wonder if Peter pulled his "sword" when they grabbed him to crucify him upsidedown, I kind of doubt it.

[ezekiel_37]

My understanding is that the security had weapons, not Pastor Murray. And by the way, Peter was arrested, probably by a huge force, outnumbered.....might not have had time to use his sword, or he could have given up his sword before that, as I suspect that he did.

silly boy!

[smyrna]

llm has no credibility. His posts are meaningless nonsense. He has proven that to all of us. He refuses to answer questions. He deliberately creates diversions to dodge those questions. He is worthless.
There are three other active Shepherd's Chapel threads where you can view the three questions llm has refused to answer, ones he tries to divert attention from.
He cannot defend his own claims. Proof is that he won't answer questions meant to show the reader how off the wall he is.
He has no value as a participant in these discussions. He is a rambling, bumbling example of a wasted mind.

[balaam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmSNi3NyS3E

El líder está muy loco!

[smyrna]

First I'd like to say, that I really liked the clip of that TV preacher shooting Santa Claus! (It's probably the Church that Balaam belongs to)

Secondly, this thread I think thoroughly covered the gun incident, and since Balaam is just about heckling and not studying anything but heavy metal, science fiction, and late night comedy, he has missed the references to:

Peter having a sword with the full knowledge of Jesus in the garden during His arrest.

BALAAM, who has replaced any study of theology in his life with studying late night comedy, also missed this teaching by Jesus:

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: ***and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment, and buy one."***

In addition to even Chapel critics maintaining we all have a right to defend ourselves,I'd say that once again, BALAAM has shown us yet another one of his foolish attempts at discrediting the SC.

Aren't you getting a bit tired of getting beat up Balaam?

[smyrna]

Oh YEAH!!!!!!!!!

This is great!

If any of you go to that stupid youtube page Balaam posted, take a look at the comments to the videos on that page. Of the three comments that mention Pastor Murray, two of them supported the fact he had the gun, and one other said the video was funny!

BALAAM, one again you have been your own worst enemy.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Quote:
BALAAM, one again you have been your own worst enemy.

LOL This is too funny!</font>

[smyrna]

Balaam has joined an exclusive club. He is now listed among the ranks of laughng stocks that came here and made complete fools of themselves.llm, 2pillars, and now Balaam.

No one is to blame for anyone making this list except themselves, through their own words, their own inadequecies, their own gullibility, and in the end, their own lack of common sense.

[smyrna]

As you can see, SC detractors have made quite an issue, both on this thread and on others, with Pastor Murray have the "audacity" to protect himself and those staffers that work at the Chapel, from some freak job that interrupted a live broadcast in the studio building.

Comments ranged for "no minister with any faith would carry a gun" to "Murray shouldn't have
used excessive force".

There is no better way to show these detractors are in some kid of la la land detached from reality, than to exhibit a real life situation that proves them wrong:

The reality is this:

Over the last weekend, a gunman rampaged through two different Church complexes in Colorado, killing four people, before he was stopped, being killed not by police, but by a volunteer security officer hired by the New Life Church.

The other Church, a missionary training facility, received threatening mail prior to the shootings.

So the next time some clown wants to complain about how Churches and ministers who run them should have faith that God will protect them, maybe they can contact the New Life Church, who are very thankful they didn't listen to idiots like those you read on these boards, and were prepared, and by doing so, saved many more lives.

That gunman was definitely prepared to kill as many people as possible. He had hundreds of rounds of ammunition and was ready to use them when he was sent to the Father for a very personal conversation, by a very courageous and God fearing woman.

[stage_director]

Hmmm, is that how the persecuted churches dealt with Saul of Tarsus? Did they gather together rocks and spears to ward off his soldiers? It's called being martyred for your testimony of Christ, folks. When a carnal man like Murray arms himself what he's actually saying is, "No way! Not me! I will fight to preserve my life."

See, imposters don't have that heart readiness whereby they're willing to die in the line of duty for their Lord. That's the long and short of it.

[lutheratx]

Hmmm,

Jhn 15:18 ¶ If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

What do you think the word remnant means.

I wish I could remember where the numbers are for the first meeting.

To get to my point these early Christians were greatly outnumbered, do you think they had a chance if they did want to defend themselves? if they stood against the High Priest everyone of them that stood against him would die. They taught the word to people that the holy spirit led them to teach, and it got them killed when others heard it. However I doubt they were lining up to be killed.

So I have to research more on if it is OK to defend ones self, but David told Solomon which men to have executed, some of them because they would try to have him removed. (self defense)

[smyrna]

That's a sorry shame, for Stage Director to refer to ministries that hire security to claim they should just allow themselves to be martyred.

Two teenage sisters were killed in that shooting over that weekend.

Maybe Stage Director can tell their parents that they should be glad they were "martyred."

Then she can tell that security guard she is an "imposter" for not allowing any more people to be honored by martyrdom.

Martyrs were killed for their beliefs. To compare some maniac shooting as martyring them, is so ridiculous, it classifies as the joke of the day.

Stage Director, you are a real disgusting person.

[stage_director]

Hmmm, is that how the persecuted churches dealt with Saul of Tarsus? Did they gather together rocks and spears to ward off his soldiers? It's called being martyred for your testimony of Christ, folks. When a carnal man like Murray arms himself what he's actually saying is, "No way! Not me! I will fight to preserve my life."

See, impostors don't have that heart readiness whereby they're willing to die in the line of duty for their Lord. That's the long and short of it.

Smyrna and Luther, naturally I wouldn't expect you to understand ... Sadly, you're both spiritually bereft ...

[lutheratx]

Instead of repeating my self I will just say reread post number 853. Where I left a reference to Solomon protecting himself, God gave Solomon a lot, you would think that if it displeased God he wouldn't have gave him so much.

[lutheratx]

I will come back tonight and find where God's law says a man is not a murderer if God delivers him in to your hands. Meaning God used your hands to give you the victory.

[smyrna]

Nice try Stage Director.

Like I said, go preach to the parents of those dead girls and to the security guard that kept others from being "martyed".

You are so perverted, according to you, any religious leader, who has taken steps not only to protect himself but the public venues where they speak, are imposters and cowards.

You don't even have enough guts to actually write the ADL about your stupid allegations, and you crticize people who stand in front of the public and preach what they personally believe, no matter what you think about what they teach.

You are despicable, you'd rather see children die at Amish schools, or two teenage girls who were just attending Church, or the others shot at those two facilities over the weekend, by maniacs, not by anyone who has an issue with their beliefs.

Because you say they should be happily "martyrd"
which is such an abuse of that term, you discredit those who are true martyrs by abusing it.

True martyrs are people who were persecuted to death by others who had an issue with their beliefs, not by some sick maniacs,and you it think it is wrong to protect innocent people from them.

You are real sick, much sicker than I ever thought. You are disgusting, and you are not representing Christ at all.

You are a vile, absolutely evil, spiritually corrupt, heartless creature.

May God have mercy on your soul.

[stage_director]

QUOTE
Instead of repeating my self I will just say reread post number 853. Where I left a reference to Solomon protecting himself, God gave Solomon a lot, you would think that if it displeased God he wouldn't have gave him so much.
END QUOTE

Luther, try zooming ahead to the new, better covenant. It's no more an eye for an eye, or just actions. Jesus now explains the spiritual implications, too. Now, don't confuse me with someone who is NT only ... God is today, tomorrow and YESTERDAY ... But we weren't ready for the more perfect spiritual teachings. Some of us still aren't ...

Dearest Smyrna, you bitter little troll ...

Hmmm, is that how the persecuted churches dealt with Saul of Tarsus? Did they gather together rocks and spears to ward off his soldiers? It's called being martyred for your testimony of Christ, folks. When a carnal man like Murray arms himself what he's actually saying is, "No way! Not me! I will fight to preserve my life."

See, impostors don't have that heart readiness whereby they're willing to die in the line of duty for their Lord. That's the long and short of it.

You're spiritually bereft ...

[smyrna]

I answered you at CB as well as on the spoof thread. You are sick, real sick.

Those girls who were killed over the weekend as well as the others weren't giving any testimony to the freak job that killed them. You compare them to true martyrs.

People that hire security for those Churches or have their own protection, not to fight against religious persecution, but to protect themselves from random maniacs, are not impostors,or cowards, nor are they suffering from lack of faith.

Go tell that Pastor who hired the security guard, who took that creep out before he killed others, an impostor and a coward.

Tell the parents of those grils that they should be honored that their children were "martyred."

You are so twisted, this is beyond a new low for you. People that read those filthy comments of yours will PUKE.

And to try and spin it off the way you are is so reprehensible, you are a filthy, evil, disgusting excuse for a human being.

You are just as mentally ill as the person who pulled the trigger on those people. So I don't expect you to understand.

Go get some help, freak.

[lutheratx]

Exodus 21 [12] He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
[13] And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

So if we do indeed serve the same God today as yesterday, in God's law he says if you are threatened you may protect yourself, and if he delivers the person in you hands he provides your escape. That is why we have the right to kill in self defense in this land, because we are a nation under God.

1Kings 1 [51] And it was told Solomon, saying, Behold, Adonijah feareth king Solomon: for, lo, he hath caught hold on the horns of the altar, saying, Let king Solomon swear unto me to day that he will not slay his servant with the sword.
[52] And Solomon said, If he will shew himself a worthy man, there shall not an hair of him fall to the earth: but if wickedness shall be found in him, he shall die.

This is right after Adonijah tried to take the throne. You know what happens if someone took your throne for the most part, if not everytime don't you? They killed you and your male offspring.

1 kings 2 [24] Now therefore, as the LORD liveth, which hath established me, and set me on the throne of David my father, and who hath made me an house, as he promised, Adonijah shall be put to death this day.

Adonijah tried to take a woman from the King's concubine, if this happened it would mean that he was the new king, or it was at least away to put him in a place to try to become king. Solomon perserved his throne, and not only that, he preserved his life by killing Adonijah.

So was this covered in the law?

I Kings 2:3 "And keep the charge of the Lord thy God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whither-soever thou turnest thyself.

David told Solomon to obey the law, so his actions more than likely were covered.

Now there is a difference in the Old testament and the New. It comes down to the governing bodies, the Christians were not in control at this time so they would be killed, however look at Judah two are three kings before they went into captivity, there was the only good king they had in quite some time. Under King Josiah you find it was the opposite, it was the false ones being executed.

II Kings 23:20 "And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them, and returned to Jerusalem."

However after being scattered and weakened by captivity. The high priest were against christianity, and like I said the Israelites had been scattered so we as Christians were far from being able to stand up against the martyrdom that was taking place. However now......

Rev 12[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Now we have the right to kill in the name of self defense. Just like God's law allows.

[lutheratx]

Let me explain something else. Jesus said

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, <font color="ff0000">Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.</font>

You see God's law calls for self defense to be done with in reason. Jesus told Peter what was going to happen. However Peter was getting emotional. I don't blame him I love the Lord a great deal too.

Mat 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I believe possibly when Peter struck this man he was allowing his emmotions to take over, I know he also wanted to protect his Lord. However a man that lives by the sword is an man that does not reason. Jesus had just told him that he would be killed, and then be risen. So don't look for confrontation, use reasoning when defending yourself.

However if you want to believe that you can not defend yourself feel free. I tried my best here not to be offensive to God, I even gave it some more thought, and I think this post stands. Think of it this way, some people have gone to war to defend your right to be Christian. So they had to defend thereselves, because weren't they defending there right to be Christian. You aren't calling all of these soldiers that were Christians wrong are you?

I don't write this in a nice manner for you Stage, because that would be pointless, but if some else was to read it I want them to be welcomed to what I believe is the truth. See it is not that your are extremely mean, it is I am always wrong with you. So I don't care to be your buddy. I do a lot of hours of study, but hey I never know what I am talking about, OK.

[back2wind]

here is the vid of that
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5044709519855945470&amp;q=arnold+murray&amp;total=54&amp;start =0&amp;num=10&amp;so=0&amp;type=search&amp;plindex=0 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5044709519855945470&amp;q=arnold+murray&amp;total=54&amp;start =0&amp;num=10&amp;so=0&amp;type=search&amp;plindex=0)
I dont think PM was out of line as he did not know the intent of the guy,
as far as he knew hw could have come there to kill him,
I don't agree with a good bit of PM stuff but I think the gun isue was pretty justafide,
we live in a time when folks just seem to walk right up in a church and start shooting,
it happend just the other day,
the guy did not have a gun but there was no way for PM to know that,
in that circumstance it good to have access to your gun first just in case the other guy had bad intent,
so I for one do not falt him for this insadent
I can under stand his actions on this
these are dangerus times for churchs,
it was a gun of a security guard that stoped the killing spree the other day when a guy walked in shooting in a church,
guns can be a big help in a world where every body who whants to harm some one els has one ,

[smyrna]

Stage Director is claiming she is only referring to Pastor Murray's incident, though that still makes her off base, as Luther noted. Thanks for the post Luther.

BLAINE,

Good to see you back here, and thank you also for your post.

Stage Director won't admit she is wrong, because she is ill.

Anyone who thinks people should just stand there and allow themselves to be harmed or killed, because they should serve as some sacrifice to their beliefs, is usurping the ultimate sacrifice, the once and for all sacrifice, that of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anyone who thinks others should not be protected from harm if there are those that can do so, from sick maniacs who want to invade any premises, no matter whether it is a Church, Synagogue, shopping mall, or whatever, is mentally challenged.

Here is how absurd Stage Director's thinking is:

Let's say two teenage girls are in a shopping
mall. Some sick freak shows up pointing a gun at them, and, seeing both girls had small Crucifixes around their necks, says, "Oh, so you believe in Jesus? Well, get ready to meet Him."

At the same time, a security guard,who is also a minister at the Church, hearing exactly what is going on, shoots the assailant.

Stage Director would call the security guard an impostor and coward, for placing himself not only in danger of being shot himself, but for denying himself,the two girls in danger, and anyone else that was in danger from this sick creep, of the opportunity to be "martyred."

Read her initial post here and tell me that is not precisely what she would say.

What a sick, perverted, and absolutely irrational thing to say. And she bases this claim on taken out of context Bible verses she used to try and spin her way out of it at Cultbusters.

Stage Director, you are in serious need of professional help, though I am sure you will continue to try and spin your way out of this, because your illness leaves you no choice.

[oneway]

smyrna, you know what your biggest problem is? You don't understand context nor spiritual things. I read what sd wrote, and I am very well aware of the part of your post she was responding
to. And it was this part.

"As you can see, SC detractors have made quite an issue, both on this thread and
on others, with Pastor Murray have the "audacity" to protect
himself and those
staffers that work at the Chapel, from some freak job that
interrupted a live
broadcast in the studio building.

Comments ranged for "no minister with any faith would carry a
gun" to "Murray
shouldn't have
used excessive force"."




And this is how sd responded to these statements.




"Hmmm, is that how the persecuted churches dealt with Saul of Tarsus? Did they
gather together rocks and spears to ward off his soldiers?
It's called being martyred
for your testimony of Christ, folks. When a carnal man like
Murray arms himself what
he's actually saying is, "No way! Not me! I will fight to
preserve my life."

See, imposters don't have that heart readiness whereby
they're willing to die in the
line of duty for their Lord. That's the long and short of
it."


Nowhere in sd's response did she ever address what happened over the weekend with the shootings, nor was she comparing the shooting incident with the AM gun incident . She was addressing your beloved PM, you know..the imposter..the carnal one that would rather save his life anyday than to ever give it up for the Lord's sake. sd was trying
to make a point that requires spiritual understanding, of which you obviously have
none.

You said some of the most disgusting things aimed at sd that I have witnessed you saying so far. You owe sd a heartfelt apology. Of course that requires having a heart in the first place. You have no right to speak to her like this and twist her thoughts to fit your agenda. Talk about low. That is low. If you're going to claim yourself as
a professed Christian, then start acting like one!


And now I see you are doing your little parodies of how sd would react in a live situation. There's no end to your wickedness is there? There is no fear of God in you whatsoever that I can see, otherwise you couldn't act the way you do.


I also want you to realize that I wrote this post with tears in my eyes. When you say hurtful things to a sister in Christ, you are also saying hurtful things to the body of Christ, of which I am a member, and even more importantly, to the head of that body, Christ himself. Have you no shame?


But go ahead and keep spinning all of this around to where it makes sd the guilty one. That's what you strive to do, and unfortunately you do it well.

[lutheratx]

Oneway it was a dark day for Christians, I can not blaim Smyrna for being upset with Stage. She did say that what was done by the Gaurd that stopped this act was not Christian in her actions because she to should have not rellied on her weapon. She is a Christian and she stopped more young people being killed by a mad gunman. The lady asked for the Holy Spirit to guide her, and she didn't panic or anger. She did what was right.

You are blinded because of your over affiliations.

Lets let the hero talk for herself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN5g6gH7fYQ&amp;feature=related

[smyrna]

Oneway,

You are full of it. Stage Director was way out of line, claiming she knows better than Murray about how to protect himself as does any minister from any Church.

She can sit all smug behind her computer and call people that protect themselves and others cowards and impostors, but the fact is especially a Church like the SC, where you can see the hatred from whackos that oppose it right here in front of you, I'd walk around with an AK-47 if I were Murray.

These clowns act as if he actually shot that jerk.

This is supposedly a civil society. And here is this nutcase, invading a studio and causing a disruption, in an era where people like that guy, who may or may not have been armed at the time, could just go home get a gun, and come back the next day.

And Stage Director actually believes that according to the Bible, at least her version of it, says if he did do that, everyone should just line up against the wall and prepare to be martyred.

And if you think that is the right thing to do, you are not just acting stupid, you ARE stupid.

And I'll tell you something else Oneway.

Stage Director is the sleaziest, slimiest snakes there is. She's over there at Cultbusters, because she knows what is being said here, and she is avoiding the discussion here, because she'd rather be in a more friendly and controlled environment.

Here, she gets what she deserves. And that is another reason that she ain't getting any apology from me, because she knows how sick and deceptive she is, that has been established long ago.

She has had so many opportunities to either fess up or give us some proof of all those allegations she has made here, but she offers NOTHING you read me NOTHING, but more of her BS.

So if you want to defend that crap, or if you enjoy playing games like clueless or really are stupid, I think it's just a game with you boy, well keep on playin', because your are losing.

Because I don't care whether you agree with that or not, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Awesome post Smyrna!! I couldn't have said it better!</font>

[smyrna]

Thanks Ter,

The same basic discussion went on at CB. Stage Director, not surprisingly, has agreed to disagree.

I'll stand by those opinions here, and I have harsh words for those who think otherwise, as you can see, but like anyone else, I have a difficult time with what I see as completely absurd and irrational views, but understand that others don't share my opinions.

But in this case, I'm glad they do. Many more lives would be saved. Who cares if we have a few less "martyrs." lol!

[stage_director]

Oneway, Smyrna has what's known as a seared conscience and will say whatever it takes to further his cause. Combine this with a couple of misplaced followers such as Ter and Luther ... Do you honestly think they could judge anything?

Smyrna knows what I said about PM's gun incident has merit, so he's trying to hide that fact behind his typical ad hominem rhetoric. Just Smyrna as usual.

Let's be thankful that the original poster seems to have been an SC student that got wise to that ministry. That's the whole point, and that's worth celebrating.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[smyrna]

Sorry, you read Kim wrong, You need to read down the thread a bit.

She had nothing but good things to say about us, and she's been an email pen pal for a long time, but I can prove she had nothing but love for us. I'll give you other threads to prove that if you wish.

All one has to do is check the date of her post for proof.

So sorry, BUSTED again!

Oh,and you forgot to add Dodge to the list of those who agreed with me, Want the post that proves that?

Yeah, my conscience is seared all right, with the flames of TRUTH!

[lutheratx]

I provided lots of scripture in my post numbers 858 and 859. How am I misplaced, I used biblical documentation. You see the way you debate issues like this is you post scripture that supports you. Maybe you missed were I was using the bible to support my beliefs, if you did it is there. If you didn't miss it you need to learn how to debate with me, or leave my name out of your post, because you didn't come back with anything that should be considered. Like how you think Jesus changed this law.

[lutheratx]

Smyrna did you see the video I posted were the security guard was thanking God. Professing she was Christian, so how is this different from Murray having a weapon. This woman is a hero today. I'm waiting for Stage to say something about her. She already has about her actions by the initial comments she wrote.

[stage_director]

Luther, Smyrna is an evil troll, and it's pretty sad that you don't recognize that. Not everyone who fights our battle is without a deeper, sinister agenda. You're so eager to have someone on your side you'll ignore what they're about. Smyrna hurts the case of Arnold Murray as opposed to helping it, and the only help he gives to you is to pave the road to hell with his pseudo Christianity ... it ain't real. If it were it would touch his heart, but he's a real 24 karat troll instead. Even you're nastier after being being exposed to him.

[smyrna]

Yeah I saw it, and I'm also seeing Stage Director once again refusing to admit she was wrong about something. How quickly her celebration was put to an end!

"...the only help he gives to you is to pave the road to hell with his pseudo Christianity ... it ain't real."

Boy, oh boy:

How many times have these people complained about Watchman's use of "have a nice trip" and even harsher language about where they are going if they don't shape up.

And now we have Stage Director, who, rather than admitting she was wrong about Kim, who only has Oneway here to agree with her, now telling you, Luther, are on the path to hell, and ranting and raving about me being some evil troll!

Well, I translate that to be just her way of telling me she is po'd because she got busted AGAIN.

You think I can't see through that charade Stage Director?

Hypocrites I tell 'ya, hypocrites!

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Smyrna and Luther,

Yes, SD got busted! She should have investigated more before she commented about Kim. We have many threads here which show Kim was very friendly towards us and had nothing but the best intent toward us. Kim has/does email quite a few of us still. Kim is a sweetheart and a very sincere person! And although she isn't a SC student, she treated/s us with respect, though theologically, she sees some things differently. She respects the fact that not all agree nor do they have to in order to be civil, even friendly with one another.

Many of the detractors could learn a lesson of tolerance from Kim.</font>

[balaam]

Hello smyrna!! Hello to all SC'ers and detractors -- I wish you all the best!!

Maybe it's stirring the pot, but I want to jump in and say smyrna is RIGHT!! RIGHT AS RAIN!!

Christians have a right to defend themselves from potentially fatal consequences-- I think the desire to stay alive is basic human instinct.

The church shootings and being martyred just don't jive -- it's kind of like saying "I will step out into the street and into the path of that oncoming bus to further the cause of Christ". That's just absurd.

If your family is under threat of death from a serail killer or any other thug, what do you do? Say "I'll miss you and the kids, honey-- just be passive and let whatever happens happen" or do you use deadly force to stop that lunatic?

Those people weren't sacrifices in the mall or the churches -- they are murder victims-- the result of a couple of demonic psychos--- anyone with a handgun who could put a stop to these shootings ( Hooray for the security guard in CO!!) would-- in a second-- terminate these nuts.

I wish these people could be stopped BEFORE they get started-- sadly, it won't happen... all the school shootings are also more examples of senseless murders because someone is a mental case.


Why is it some people think Christians are to be doormats? Just tolerate everything that goes on; stay silent; if someone tries to hurt you or kill you or your loved ones, take no action to stop them-- Anarchy all the way!

Now you will hear the ususal cries from the gun control lobby --- take away the guns from law abiding people ( criminals can and will keep as many as they want!) so that we can plunge headlong into a socialist "Hillary type" (or any other Democrat presidential candidate-- they are all bad news) dictatorship. Sound like fun?

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">HI Balaam!! Great post!</font>

[smyrna]

Hey Balaam!

Balaam, I will always be convinced that the Holy Spirit moved you here today.

I don't think you or Stage Director ever "met" but if you don't mind me bringing up old stuff, we weren't always friendly to say the least.

But that speaks much for today. You came here in pace, and you agree with this issue, and I appreciate that.

But who would disagree? Stage Director's position is so irrational it's unbelievable.

Anyway, you hangin' out for a while?

If not, you have a great Christmas, and stop in again sometime!

And Stage Director,

If you think your erroneous view of Kim, and the appearance of Balaam who was one of not only Murray's but my harshest critics are just coincidences, you need to think again.

Because you are wrong, and the issue is much bigger than Murray and what happened at the Chapel.

Christ was the ultimate sacrifice, we don't need martyrs,we never did, we need to be able to protect ourselves.

Ter, Thanks, and the Lord works in mysterious ways!

[dobman53]

SD ONEWAY: I'm late to this party, but just the same I read through the above posts. How should I say other than I am not surprised at either of your responces. SD you are priceless in your take of how Peter didn't do a thing when they tacked him upside down. And how he was so pleased with how things worked out with him being a martyr. You are a holy woman! Oneway I saved a little more typing room for you. If my understaning is right you are a minister of God. I love how you pointed out to smyrna his lack of knowledge concerning real Bible ways. YA RIGHT!!! I remember a post of yours awhile back where you were very unhappy with PM when you learned PM teaches ministers are going to be held to a higher standard. I detected a slight scare in your perception of such thoughts. You yourself know of many of his teachings, and yet you condem all who except them. Oneway I very seldom quoate a verse, not that I don't have any to draw from, but I often look upon them in our situations as spiritual hard balls smacking one another over the head. Here is my point you being a minister, and all these things you know yet won't except, The bible has a verse for you. It goes like this: DID I NOT CAST OUT DEMONDS IN YOUR NAME/ GET AWAY FROM ME FOR I KNOW NOT YOUR NAME

[stage_director]

QUOTE
And although she isn't a SC student, she treated/s us with respect, though theologically, she sees some things differently
END QUOTE

lol Gee, just like I said ... ;-)

[dobman53]

SD: I hope to one day see you in fine white linens as Jesus presents you to God as the apple of his eye. SD you and smyrna have an on going battle that sometimes gets in the way. I'm laying down a challenge to smyrna right now to type the words I just now posted. Smyrna the ball is in your court. DOBMAN p.s. smyrna I would not make such a challenge to a lesser man. swallow your pride, if only to show the one who matters the most. should you have won in the end what good would it be if SD was not present.

[dobman53]

smyrna: I have no right to make such a challenge, after all I myself am nobody of matter. Just the same I do feel my thoughts are right minded.

[stage_director]

I'll try to watch how I say things, Dob.

[smyrna]

SD: I hope to one day see you in fine white linens as Jesus presents you to God as the apple of his eye.

And, I see you are heading that way. At least you referred to SC as "that ministry" and not a cult.

[smyrna]

Stage Director worte:

"Not everyone who fights our battle is without a deeper, sinister agenda."

Well well, is this an admission? Or is she referring to her allies, you know, the ones who
"will ignore what they're about."

Maybe, she she has claimed she is here to "enlighten" us, she can tell us what sinister agenda she is referring to?

Hey, I'm no prophet, but I doubt we'll be enlightened on this topic.

[stage_director]

Smyrna, I'm going to try to put this as matter of factly as I can. "By their fruits you shall know them .." Your fruit tells me you're not a Christian, although I can only guess as to what your real purpose is here. Anybody who twists people's words like you do is dishonest, anybody who finds such glee is dissension is not right in the head. The end really does not justify the means, and you would do anything and everything to further your cause. As I said ... God judge between me and thee. You're going to have to give account for all the idle, nasty and obnoxious words you've said to so many people. Yeah, I know you're going to scoff at that ... but it will happen. God don't like ugly, and he isn't the one standing on the left of a man who doesn't have any control of himself. Seleh ...

[smyrna]

Stage Director,

YOU are the one who refuses to admit when you are wrong, EVER.

You misjudged Kim, you are on the side of the security issue that is the minority opinion, and
YOU are the one who has such a bad habit of making accusations you can't back up.

So to demonize me for your own failures is a bit disingenuous to say the least.

Plus, I don't see where I twisted your words, you said "our battle" and I don't think you were including me or Luther. So maybe you twist your own words, who knows, but it to me means you and the other detractors, because when you say OUR, you sure don't mean me or Luther.

If you think you words are being twisted, then answer this, yes or no:

Do you believe, that a Christian minister is right if he provides security for himself, his Church, his staff, and the congregation,no matter whether there is a service going on, or if everyone is having a Church picnic?

YES or NO?

[stage_director]

Did the early church do that?

YES or NO?

[smyrna]

You did not answer the question. You cannot answer a question with a question You are dodging. I will answer that question when to decide to answer mine.

By the way, I have added the opinion of the former global moderator to the list of those who agree with me.

[stage_director]

I think depending on God is underrated. Do you think he is unable to protect his own? Can anyone take you out if he doesn't permit it? Is he in control ... or isn't he?

[smyrna]

Apples and oranges. I said does a Christian have the right to defend themselves?

The Church certainly has the right to defend itself, both physically as well as doctrinally.

If you think depending on God is underrated, here is what you can do:

Leave your doors open at night and your windows. Don't ever lock your car.

Leave your money on the front porch, don't keep any fire extinguishers or smoke detectors in your house. Don't take any drugs if you are ill, don't wear seat belts,don't dress for the weather, and feel free to jump off cliffs
any time because God will protect you from all those things.

Otherwise, you may be underrating Him. He isn't in control.

You are really absurd. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[dobman53]

SD: I find smyrna's post on my challenge far above anything you could ever realise. You in your infinet wisdom, how shall I say fell far, far, short from the mark. I thought you could at least say something of like nature. The fool I am, I didn't realise your hatred could ever run so deep. Darling I'm now concerned for your self being. You couldn't be so callous as that. Sugar you need to take a step back and have a look see. Right now, and in this moment only, I'm not seeing a pretty young lady adorned in fine white linen. I know one day, or at least I'm hoping one day you too would like to see smyrna sporting one slick linen robe!!!

[dobman53]

WHAT A FOOL I'M MADE ME TO BE. HERE I THOUGHT I NEW SO MUCH ABOUT HUMAN NATURE, BUT ALLAS MY GOOD FRIEND SD HAS PROVED ME WRONG. WHAT A FOOL, WHAT A FOOL, WHAT A FOOL I AM

[smyrna]

She is all smoke and mirrors, Dobman.

She has nothing. She refuses, as she always has, of answering tough questions or facing challenges to her accusations and presumptions.

But it's typical for detractors to talk a good game, but when it comes to actual performance, they fall flat on their faces.

She can't answer questions, can't prove her accusations, what is she good for other than to show how the typical detractor just collapse under scrutiny.

Dishonest, sneaky, and arrogant, people like SD are just what we need to show the "piety" of the typical detractor.

Shamelessly lying, deceptive, and manipulative, they embody not Christian virtue, but only the worst humanity has to offer.

[stage_director]

lol Oh, Smyrna ... Do you think you can substitute little silly made up stories for the fact that you can't back up anything you say, first and foremost ... how you pay homage to the Pope and yet call yourself a SCer all at the same time? Why, don't you just admit it, sport ... You're so fascinated and obsessed by me ... why you've even tallied up another 4000 posts, uh, mostly to moi no less, in the last six weeks or so they let you back on here! I guess I probably should be flattered by all the attention, hey? Soooo, should I call you my groupie? Or just another stalker?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

(Message edited by stage_director on December 16, 2007)

[angie0401]

"Or just another stalker? "

You have more than one stalker? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[smyrna]

She doesn't have stalkers, Angie. What she has is people that won't let her off the hook for making allegations she can't back up.

She is in her own world. How many times I've busted her contradicting herself this week alone, and she posts here that I can't back up anything! lol!

Did you see Angie, where she claimed Kim Frederick didn't like the SC and left here because she found the "truth?"

Scroll up a few posts if you didn't.

Stage Director has to be in La La land to say stuff like that, when the proof is right on this very same thread! lol!

Stalker? You gotta be kidding me. I was here BEFORE Stage Director. I was on CB before Stage Director. It is her choice to keep coming back here and making a fool out of herself, not mine.

She is starting to sound like the one who was formerly known as Global Moderator.

What a crybaby!

[angie0401]

"Did you see Angie, where she claimed Kim Frederick didn't like the SC and left here because she found the "truth?" "
No I didn't see that. I'm still extremely busy so I've just skimmed through.
That is the biggest crock I've heard. Kim left here because of everyone EXCEPT the SC. She and I have kept in contact (she's doing a lot better, by the way) and she is such a sweet girl!

I hope she never comes back to the environment because it can be very toxic for some people that are as soft-hearted as Kim. Especially when you have someone saying some of the absolutely cruel, hateful things some of the CBers said to her.

Kim is a kind, sweet, gentle person who deserves much happiness in her life.

[stage_director]

Ahhh ... So you're saying Kim didn't leave the Shepherd's Chapel church?

[dobman53]

SD; are you proud now that you have accomplished so much. You may think of me as one strange cookie. As I for one shall never stop loving you. Don't think of such words in me, as some twisted way for me to hold myself above you. I promise you this one thing, that will never be my motive in any and all things I post, be it about you or anybody. DOB.

[angie0401]

"So you're saying Kim didn't leave the Shepherd's Chapel church?"
Kim never was a "member" of the SC. She listened to Pastor Murray, but was/is a Sabbatarian. As far as I know, she still listens to Pastor Murray's lectures on TV, but I haven't specifically asked her because it doesn't matter to me either way.
Now I really wish you would leave her out of this, please.

[smyrna]

Good work, Angie.

You can see where she is going. She thinks that because Kim isn't here, she can assume that Kim "left" the SC. Well, I got a news flash for Stage Director: this forum is not the SC, nor does anyone coming or going form here indicate in any way their status as students or whatever.

The detractors tried this stunt before, even with you Angie. When you Ter and Abiyah weren't posting because you all got busy with other things, they started to claim that you all must have "found the truth" and other crap like that.

Every Church on this planet has people that join and quit. The detractors only want to highlight the ones who left.

In Kim's case, like you said Angie, she never said she was a member, but she did side with us that is clear.

And yes, you hit it on the head when you said:

"I hope she never comes back to the environment because it can be very toxic for some people that are as soft-hearted as Kim."

Here are her words from one of her posts:

"The tactics they use is too much of a stumbling block for me. After a while of 'playing' with them I re-read some of my posts and I don't like myself too much. Its like playing with the 'wrong crowd.' You find yourself wallowing in the 'sty' after awhile."

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Angie!! I missed you girl!

Quote:
I hope she never comes back to the environment because it can be very toxic for some people that are as soft-hearted as Kim. Especially when you have someone saying some of the absolutely cruel, hateful things some of the CBers said to her.

Kim is a kind, sweet, gentle person who deserves much happiness in her life.

You got that right, most of those from CB treated her horribly!!...and all because she was nice to us. Isn't that awful??? And they treated her far worse than they treat us. Did they really think that kind of behavior would keep her from being friendly with us? It actually had the opposite effect. And, it truly showed what kind of people they are, which is spiteful, hateful, cruel and biased. They didn't really care one bit about Kim, all they cared about was if she was friendly with us or not.

Their hatred for us runs so deep that anyone who appears civil towards us is treated with hatred and contempt.

Kim did not deserve the treatment they gave her and it is because of them, along with a few others outside of CB, that she is no longer here.</font>

[dobman53]

SD: You made a comment about Smyrna, and his thoughts concerning the Catholic church. Think about such thoughts as that. Do any of us Scer's rush in, and say smyrna is a false Scer. Or do we say he is now band from our mists. If we were such cultists as you say, wouldn't we be in an uproar! Kinda odd isn't it, that none of us have a problem, should one of us differ on any particular point. To your way of thinking we must be a very strange cult. Or perhaps were not a cult after all. NAAAAAHHHH! SD says were a cult period. so we must be a cult. If you don't believe it why you only need to ask Godchild, she'll tell you for sure were a cult. Now if your the type who can't take a womans point of view as fact then just ask my good friend Oneway. He'll even place his hand on the Bible and swear PM is the devil himself, and any and all that like PM are Kenites. Yet in the same breath he'll swear Kenites don't exsist. Still if you are continuing to having a hard time thinking Scer's are a cult. Why you can then get the straight word from God in his pure unknown tongue. The blessed Arron will contourt his tongue in a melody only know to God and himself. Should you still find your self in dark about this cultism, IIm will attest to every thing the decenters have stated as the gospel truth. Peace be with you loving saints, for you are the protectors of all known truths. forever and ever may God bless you and keep you. AMEN

[sugarshrimp]

Greetings,

I happen to work for an investigation &amp; security company. One of our biggest clients is a rather large church. I have spent many hours there doing security and can say without a doubt that churches most assuredly need security nowadays.

Unfortunately churches draw crazy people. They do. In the past two years we've had several occurrences that had nothing to do with persecution or what have you, just crazy people wandering into the church.

One fellow claimed to be God and demanded access to the main sanctuary, another said he was there to kill himself and intended to take the pastor with him, just a few weeks ago a woman came in and physically attacked the pastor's wife for no apparent reason. We have to escort these people out or sometimes even restrain them until the police arrive.

This church is very mainstream in its beliefs, so it's not drawing nuts because it's a weird church, no, it draws nuts because it's a large and fairly well known church in the area.

What would a church that has these problems do without security? Should the pastor grapple the offenders personally?

[smyrna]

Dobman,

Good points on the Catholic issue. We've been through the argument, SD just relishes being absurd.
She never called me a "false SCer" but a "Catholic SCer." I explained that I am Catholic, but have great admiration for Pastor Murray and his teachings. No, they don't always jive with Catholic teachings, and only God can read my heart
as to what I actually believe, but I am a baptized Catholic and will remain one for the rest of my days.

But any Catholic theologian will tell you they too have great admiration for other teachers, even Buddhist ones.

In Stage Director's world, that can only mean one thing: that you are confused, wrong, and are labeled as if you an actual practitioner of both religions!

But in my world, and many others, it is a statement of support for ecumenism and religious tolerance.

So I must close by asking: What attitude would lead one to confrontation, and prejudice. My attitude or Stage Director's?

And Dobman, as far as Oneway is concerned, he just plays games. He plays dumb all the time and he isn't as dumb as he tries to convince people he is. Keep that in mind when you read his posts. He deliberately words his posts as if he never heard a certain issue before.

Stage Director does it too, and I think they are under the impression that they will wear their opponents out by forcing them to repeat themselves over and over. Then they complain we repeat ourselves too much!

I just point out every time they do it, that we've been through a certain argument before. That lets the readers know who the game players are.

[smyrna]

Thanks for your post, Sugarshrimp. We can now add you to the list of level headed people who disagree with Stage Director's absurd argument,that the leaders of Churches who hire security are impostors and cowards, who should allow themselves to be killed, especially if the killer has theological differences with them!

[dobman53]

Smyrna: I was born into the Assembly of God church. My mother used to tell me Bible stories that lifted my little heart to the heavens. I left that organization in 1967, and went Jehovas Witness. Talk about a pendualum swing. So how shall I say other than I can fully understand what one might feel at times. When it comes to SD and Oneway, I sometimes wonder if I shall ever fully understand. I have the hardest time with SD. I just can't figure her out, she seems to have kicked God of his throne of judgement. Making herself the judge and jury to boot. I myself am pretty much computer slow minded. I've only checked out a few different sights. I read a few post, and low and behold there was SD. Ripping poor old Arnold to shreads. Boy oh boy is this poor girl posessed with an angery spirit or what? As fare as Oneway is concerned I don't approve of his takes on things. But for some reason or another, I honestly feel I could like him given different circumstances. You know I guess I could probably like SD too!!! WHO KNOWS!!!

[smyrna]

I really can't imagine Oneway in a social setting as easily as I can see SD.

But here is what comes to mind:

Stage Director comes into a cafe and sits at the counter. She looks over at the person next to her and says "Hello." She kind of sneaks glances over at the person and finally, being overwhelmed by her obsession, says, "Excuse me, have you ever heard of the Shepherd's Chapel?"

"As a matter of fact, I have. Just caught the program this morning, actually."

Stage Director, without saying anything else, gets
up, and moves to another stool, where she sits and stares at the person with a major frown on her face.

The waitress comes over and says, "would you like a menu?"

"No thanks, I lost my appetite. But hey, have you ever heard of the Shepherd's Chapel?"

"No, never heard of it." Why?

"You see that guy over there, he's one of those"........

[lutheratx]

that is funny as heck, I noticed you are a big softy over at CB. I geuss that is good. However that was really funny.

[smyrna]

Luther, without going into details, I have to be "a big softy" over there. However, with that being said, I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, and that includes our detractor friends.

[saygoodnightgracie]

I would like to weigh in on the question of security. My father is a 77 year old preacher, and while he is in excellent physical condition -I would prefer that his ushers keep him safe and protected, as well as my 78 year old mother.

He has not had problems at his church, however as a former head usher in two churches, as well as a former associate pastor (with "Helps" ministries under me), I can tell you that many strange, sometimes slightly dangerous people walk in the back of churches.

In DePere WI, we often had drunk, belligerent people accosting the female greeters at the back door. I had to have special training sessions with our ushers to teach them how to move people WITHOUT touching them, no easy feat - because of course, someone can come in and interrupt your broadcast, or say that all the world's problems are due to Christianity and start shooting, or show up at church drunk during service DEMANDING money and that's "okay"... but if you guide someone out the door by holding them by the shoulder and escorting them, the instant you touch them you can be sued.

So, while there is REAL TRUTH to what SD says, and I beleive that Psalm 91 and Is 54:17 are at work in my life - I still think you gotta keep people safe, and in some cases - at all costs.

[saygoodnightgracie]

Smyrna
I would appreciate you NOT using my user id in your posts at CB. There are a couple of less than honest, lonely people there who automatically take that to mean that I am in alliance with you, I am racist, etc.
I am neither.
Furthermore, I enjoy reading Munson and SD's posts and would prefer to not be banned there because of these goof balls with their soap opera, drama queen, internet lives...
Thank you!
SD, Smyrna, Luther - carry on and have a blessed day!

[smyrna]

SGNG,

Sorry about that. But I tried to tell them I only know you as an occasional poster here. And for the record, I'm not a racist nor antisemitic, either. I'm just a target for repeat offenders over there, I can handle it, though.

You have good day too, and a Merry Christmas!

[lutheratx]

"Really? One of very favorite ministers has a church there. What time of year, I would like to go see this SC crowd in person. SC, WOFF and perhaps a Church of Scientology are three services I would like to see/experience in person this year if possible." SGNG


http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=463517#POST463517

"There are a couple of less than honest, lonely people there who automatically take that to mean that I am in alliance with you, I am racist, etc." SGNG

So seeing how I am a student at the same church as Smyrna am I a racist cult member?

Don't apologise to this guy Smyrna just for including his name in your post. This is America where you can say somebodies name.

SGNG needs to apologise for grouping you and me in with racists and cults. Remember above said comment was made while he was buddy buddy with a known enemy of the SC. I would only ally with this guy on topics we agree on. Make sure you keep your eye on him. He has offended me within this week.

So he doesn't want to get called racist, well then he will get what I will say from this side. You sir need to research what you are talking about, you need to study your bible.

Research cults, read Ezekiel 37 16 until the end at http://www.theseason.org/ot.htm

Or go to the New testament side and read Romans ll :7 and see what Roger says about that. Roger has studied with the chapel a lot longer than I have.

However we (know matter what you hear) believe that the Jews are our brothers, there is a small nation that has crept in unaware that has deceived them. (I can document all of this) Let me ask you a question do the Jews for the most part believe in Jesus? We believe during the millennium brother Judah will be very receptive to us. They for the most part want to please God, a good deal (I would like to say most) of them will be in the eternity.

We believe in something called the election, you will hear Murray say the kings and Queens of the ethnos. This is him acknowledging that there are the elect that are not of Israel. They are no less than the election of Israel, and that is proven in Romans 11:7. My understanding is not all the elect will be kings and queens, these will be the very elect from the ethnic people. The election will be able to come into Christ. The ethnic people will be the people during the millennium that lead there people into the eternity. They are heroes in Christ, and they are strangers that excepted the doctrine because they love God. Do you acknowledge the fact that there were gentiles in the bible? These gentiles were not of Israel, they were in fact strangers to Israel, yet they still accepted the brothers of Christ. Why, because they love Christ, the Kings and the Queens of the ethnos lead a very strong intelligent people, and also our brothers, and sisters. They will lead there people into the eternity. Just like I will take part in leading some of the lost sheep of Israel, and the deceived people of Judah in, I how ever am not of the very elect.

Revelations 21 [24] And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

There is no animosity here, there is no racism here, here is the kings of the earth bringing there glory and honour to God. You don't bring honour and glory to a God you feel treats you less than someone else.

If you are the election and you are like the pupil in God's eye, not to be messed with. How are you less than someone else. A Black king of the ethnos means more to me than a white man full of pride.

[lutheratx]

So you are welcome to Passover, but don't you think your reasons for wanting to see it are unbecoming of a Christian? I also don't like your I'm better than you attitude with Smyrna, because I have seen your young world link you provided us with. You still got a lot to work on too. Don't worry I too have a lot to work on.

For the record I will not mention your name, unless I disagree with you, and I hope that happens soon. You seem like you could use some correcting, I pray that God lets me be the one that stands against your fiery darts. You don't want to be considered an ally, OK lets do it the other way.

[smyrna]

Relax, Luther. I think SGNG was referring to certain people at CB, how THEY are lumping him up with us, who THEY accuse us of being racist, not SGNG.

I also can't fault him if he even went to Branson or Gravette. I have a habit of going to other Churches just to fellowship with others. It help keep and open mind,to see the diversity of the Christian culture.

It's the opposite of the detractors. If you poll them, and they've been around enough and have talked about it so we have an idea, the majority of them haven't stepped in a Church for some time. They are their own little Churches, with their own handpicked doctrines, because they have no ecclesiastical authority to answer to.

This goes completely against the Bible, they are the worst of the worst in that regard.It has made them arrogant, aloof, and intolerant.
They have puffed themselves up so much that NO Church is good enough for them.

[saygoodnightgracie]

Luther, I think we've misunderstood each other but correct away!

Can I see the young world link that I provided you with... I would like to read about that.

And by the way, I AM superior to Smyrna - he is a Saints fan and I am a Bears fan... NO CONTEST!

Settle down tiger, I don't know whether you're racist or not. Don't care, you and Smyrna say you're not, then you're not. Some guy says he went to heaven when he died and came back to life. That's his business, who am I to question.

I was actually discussing the lumping in process, I think it sucks.

[saygoodnightgracie]

As far as visiting other churches, I get around a LOT - lots of traveling, vacations, business trips, etc. and I find it fascinating to read or hear about a church here and then go visit it in person. On my list this year are Word of Faith Fellowship, Rob Bell's Church, SC and a Scientology Church.

I'll tell you a little secret about what I've discovered... when you read about the church here you expect a bunch of infested demoniacs and what I've normally seen is a bunch of people who want to worship God in their own unique and sincere way.

We'll see...

[saygoodnightgracie]

For all the things I've read here, the most alarming church I've EVER visited was Bill Hybel's "Willow Creek" in Chicago, a seeker sensitive assembly... now that was freaky, of course evangelicals eat that junk up so he'll never be criticized here.

[oneway]

"It's the opposite of the detractors. If you poll them, and they've been around enough and have talked about it so we have an idea, the
majority of them haven't stepped in a Church for some time. They are their own little Churches, with their own handpicked doctrines, because
they have no ecclesiastical authority to answer to.

This goes completely against the Bible, they are the worst of the worst in that regard.It has made them arrogant, aloof, and intolerant.
They have puffed themselves up so much that NO Church is good enough for them."


As far as this goes, don't forget to lump watchman_2 in this group of the worst of the worst. He hasn't set foot in a church in 30 yrs. According to him anyway.
And no, watching AM on tv is not the same as going to church, is it?

[dobman53]

Oneway: I can't tell ya how good it feels to get whacked up side the head again. No one can pitch a stone in there quite like you can. You know come to think of it I haven't been in a church for years myself. I Guess I must have missed the meeting, where they kicked God of his throne and made you judge. But I guess with me being so arrogant and intolerable. I wouldn't have ben able to pick up on the fact that you were now the judge anyways. Should I be watching PM on TV, and you decide it's time to pitch another stone. Will you make me a promise not to hit the TV set. (I have missed you my friend!!)

[angie0401]

luther,
I appreciate your passion, but please be assured that sgng is probably the LEAST judgmental person on here. He is a great person and I would be happy to have him celeberate Passover with us. I don't think for a second that he would suddenly become an avid SC viewer, but I believe he would enjoy attending Passover and fellowshipping with all of us antisemitic racists! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[oneway]

"Oneway: I can't tell ya how good it feels to get whacked up side the head again. No one can pitch a stone in there quite like you can. You
know come to think of it I haven't been in a church for years myself. I Guess I must have missed the meeting, where they kicked God of his throne and made you judge."

hey dob, get a clue my friend. It is not I who is pitching stones. It's your friend smyrna that is doing that. BTW, I haven't set foot inside a church in at least 20 yrs. So what do you have to say about that?

[dobman53]

Oneway: The last few churches I attended. Usually read one or two verses, and then spent about a half hour giving their interpratation. More often than not the preacher spoke of current avents in the news paper than anything else. I know of not foresaking the assembly of men. I would never judge any on their habbits. As a matter of fact I try to limit my bad mouthing of certain groups. I am guilty of jumping on the tongue talkers now and again. Sometimes I just can't help it! I guess that falls under the judge not clause. so I best be carefull. As for smyrna, I'm sure he like me would be going to church all the time if we lived in Arkansas. I myself could not afford to travel that far every sunday, so hopefully God will cutt me some slack. Maybe you might cutt me some slack as well!!

[smyrna]

"And no, watching AM on tv is not the same as going to church, is it?"

Traditionally, and there are good and righteous traditions, people have gathered together in worship.

The advances in electronic mediums such as TV and the Internet have allowed us to gather our minds together, albeit not as in a way where there is always a way to interact with each other. However, we do in a way gather together in prayer and learning.

So in my opinion, gathering together in worship, prayer, and learning is an extension of traditional public worship.

It isn't perfect, but in any case I'm afraid people are missing the point here. And that is the detractors come across as spiritual loners who have chosen to refuse any affiliation with an ecclesiastical body. And doing so, have in a sense become Protestants of Protestants.

And according to the Bible, that is going in the wrong direction.

Jesus never appealed to the Pharisees and the Sadducees to quit those respective groups, He corrected them as a group. He also gathered His disciples around Him and formed His Church, and said that those who gathered together in His name
will have Him in their midst always. But He gave the authority to bind or loose on earth to Peter, and not the others. So only the successors of Peter have that binding authority.

Everyone who rejects that authority is in a state of protest, whether they call themselves Protestants or not.

It is not a matter of who actually walks into a Church building regularly. It is about maintaining
a Church established by Christ Himself, through Peter and his successors.

This ideal of one Church body is not enjoyed by those who have entered Protestantism, and muddled the landscape with so many fragmented, diluted,and "cheaper" brands of that one Church.

The reasons for leaving the one Church, and one would have to study their history for the different reasons, may have been valid at the time. But the solution was not to begin another Church or Churches, where many of the same imperfections are duplicated, but to bring improvement and change from within the one Church, a Church that embodies the living Spirit of Christ.

When Christ extended His authority through Peter and his successors, He established one Church. He never said 'upon this rock, Peter, will build my twenty thousand different Churches that don't agree with, and in many cases fight against each other.'

So to further violate that ideal by removing oneself entirely from any fellowship in protest is
what detractors do.

Those SCers who do not go to the Church in Arkansas don't go for practical reasons, not as some protest against fellowship with any Church body.

[smyrna]

Though I am sure, and I welcome, that more will be said pro and con to my comments above, another part of the issues raised come from this difference between detractors and SC folks.

Stage Director posted on CB today, but has been absent here. She is finished here. She has been. But I'm sure than when she reads this she'll deny it, but we all know it is true.

Because she has damaged her own credibility beyond repair. And denying that will only damage it further.

She's the only extremist detractor left here, and she's finished. She is of none effect.

This has to be her worst week ever on FN. She has been busted time and again with claiming things are true, and then having those claims successfully refuted. Major issues, minor issues, you name it.

She has lost major arguments, she has been proven to be a liar, she has refused to offer proof to support her allegations,and she deliberately ignores evidence that shows she is wrong.

Hey, that stuff all adds up to one thing: she is an extremist detractor, and the others who did the same things she did are gone.

It's tactics like I described above that separate those who simply disagree with SC teachings, and those who try every dirty trick in the book to destroy that which they disagree with.

[lutheratx]

You know SGNG I had a large post in which I was going to "correct away!" However I don't know if I should, although I don't think I am wrong. Like I said I had the post together. However I will humble myself, strange turn of advents man.

I will let you know I will not let Jehonadab the son of Rechab in my Chariot. However maybe there is a reason here I am not seeing, so be it.

As for the young world post, you don't remember it. I sure do, I remember it comes up with a picture of a dinosaur or something. Come on you remember, they used to call you Smryna. When I saw that I knew right away you were not Smryna.

[lutheratx]

It is true Oneway Stage is gone. You can contribute it to us be so mean and nasty. however suck up your pride, because I am sure it was a mistake that they refused you before, and get your butt over to Cultbusters. You really like your friends over there, we anger you and upset you on a regular basis.

Look I am not calling this a victory, it is more like an unsaid agreement. We don't get along, I think putting an SC thread at factnet is an abuse of a good sight. However CB to me for some reason is you guys turf. (yes I don't think it is a good sight) I felt lead to be here, and the CB well not so much.

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">Hi Luther, Angie and Smyrna are right, SGNG is a good friend. I do not believe for one moment that SGNG see us as racists. I think what SGNG was referring to, is some at CB lumping him in with us, (because he's friendly with us), with their accusations of us being racist. Correct me if I'm wrong SGNG....

SGNG is by far, the least judgmental person on these boards.</font>

[saygoodnightgracie]

"You know SGNG I had a large post in which I was going to "correct away!" However I don't know if I should, although I don't think I am wrong. Like I said I had the post together. However I will humble myself, strange turn of advents man."

You got something for me? Post it Luther, I'll read whatever you post. Looking forward to it.

Racist? No. Judgemental? Not so much. However, as I've stated before, the one thing that gets "stuck in my craw" is Christians who bash other Christians, Ministers and Ministries. It's a stench in God's nostrils.

Cultists like the leaders of Scientology, Word of Faith Fellowship, etc. should go to jail for their financial and spiritual abuse. However, people here spend too much time pointing fingers and yelling "Cult!" at groups because of simple doctrinal differences.

That's how I feel... give me a holla' Luther. I'm am bored stiff for at least the next three weeks, I'll read what you write.

Gotta find a Carribbean island I haven't been to before, but it's so hard to leave warm, sunny weather for... warm, sunny weather!

[dobman53]

Dear Friends: I find myself once again in the dark about strange goings on. I never have gone to the CB sight ever. I am perhaps the least computer savy amongst you. My kids are pure wizards with such things. Should ever my computer freeze up they come to my aid. None the less since my health has failed, and I was forced to close my buisness that I owned since 1975. These past 6 months I have come to find that these computers are a real joy that I had previously ingnored. I now find I have no joy to learn SD has left. Strange as that may sound, I always held out the possibilities of maybe one day for SD to see at least a little light. But I guess the realities of life are never so kind. If only some way SD could have ben able to step back, and take a long hard look, I'm sure things would have turned out different. I guess what I've come to know about this computer world is ringing true. Some people live in a make believe world, where they themselves deal out the cards of life. They then seem to go on and on, with only themselves making up all realities. My heart does go out to SD. I hope one day she awakes from her dream, and her eye's see the world for what it truly is. But hear again maybe I have been the dreamer all along, and didn't know it . DOBMAN

[dobman53]

Dear Oneway: I know If my lively hood, and retirement hinged on a certain doctrine. I too could easily find myself between a rock, and a hard place. I can well imagine that I might strike back in fear of things that were before unknown. The words of being in a pickle, don't quite encompass the thoughts I would be feeling. Knowing that if I spoke out to strongly amongst my group the door could easily be slammed on my hopes. Maybe if one were to only let just a little slide out, now and again, all could be well with the man upstairs. Don't think here that I profess to know all. For I certainly don't

[lutheratx]

Why do you want to visit churches that are called cults?

I mean you made a comment that says what you expect when you visit them.

"when you read about the church here you expect a bunch of infested demoniacs"

What do you expect from the SC?

"I was actually discussing the lumping in process, I think it sucks."

"I find it fascinating to read or hear about a church here and then go visit it in person. On my list this year are Word of Faith Fellowship, Rob Bell's Church, SC and a Scientology Church."

The SC lumped right in there.

Maybe I dont get it, I will admit that I can not see the reason for this visiting a place you "expect a bunch of infested demoniacs". It would disgust me, but I don't know there could be a reason. I do feel that you are lumping us in with other Churches here at factnet that you "expect a bunch of infested demoniacs" to congregate to.

You fellow SC students seriously don't have a problem with this guy wanting to visit the Passover for entertainment. He thinks we will be entertaining.

"I find it fascinating to read or hear about a church here and then go visit it in person."

My beliefs are not to entertain you man.

You have a computer right?
http://www.shepherdschapel.com/

I just saved you a trip.

This all reminds me of this.

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

"We'll see..."

I for one don't need your approval.

[angie0401]

"You fellow SC students seriously don't have a problem with this guy wanting to visit the Passover for entertainment. He thinks we will be entertaining. "

No, I don't have a problem with sgng wanting to see for himself what we are all about. I don't think it is for entertainment or because he thinks we are a bunch of "infested demoniacs". sgng doesn't think any such thing about us - he is poking fun at the detractors and their attempts to "demonize" us.

I think you maybe just haven't learned his sense of humor yet, is all. It does take a while..

sgng is a good, God-fearing man that has been kind and fair to all of us SC people, even though he doesn't always see eye-to-eye with us. I'll say it again - I would welcome him celebrating Passover with us.

[saygoodnightgracie]

"I for one don't need your approval."

Fair enough Luther, but I'm still going to try to go.

"Why do you want to visit churches that are called cults?" Because I try to never make comments or decisions about things I don't know anything about. And that process and way of going about doing things is what causes people to say about me, that I am "the least judgemental person on this board"...

You've decided things about me Luther, and you know absolutely NOTHING about me.

I will tell you this... my doctrinal background is nothing like yours, or a typical CBers, or Stage Director's, or just about anyone else's here. But that doesn't mean I'm going to pick on your pastor, or your doctrine.

Someone tells me they LOVE Jesus Christ and that they have accepted Him into their hearts as their personal Lord and Saviour - then we've got a connection.

Anyone who can't agree with that probably gets what they deserve here. In my opinion, if you preach Jesus and Him crucified as your surrogate/substitute - you shouldn't get crucified on Factnet. At that point (for me), it's all just doctrine and interpretation.

As an American, and as a Christian I respect your right to worship God and interpret His Word any way that you see fit.

Thanks Angie, and I don't fear Him anywhere near as much as I love Him...

[lutheratx]

<u>IF</u> I am wrong I apologise. I will not continue this debate. I could be wrong.

[smyrna]

Luther,

Angie pretty much summed it up. SGNG is his own man, but he is tolerant, unlike the extremist detractors. They lump him in with us because he isn't one of them either.

That's why the detractors are extremists. They do not tolerate anyone who disagrees with them. To them there is no difference between an SCer and a guy like SGNG.

That is why they are accusing SGNG is being racist and antisemitic,not because he agrees with SC (which he doesn't, and it doesn't matter what he believes to make this point) doctrine, but because he disagrees with the detractors.

I really hope that SGNG does make it to PO next spring, and then reports back his experiences.(I hope he takes photos of all the non-whites that attend, too)

The smart money is that if he does go, the detractors will accuse him of being "brainwashed" by students into going there to be "indoctrinated."

[oneway]

"The smart money is that if he does go, the detractors will accuse him of being "brainwashed" by students into going there to be
"indoctrinated."


smyrna, it appears to me these detractors you speak of probably couldn't care less anymore. I don't think you have too much to be concerned about as to what these detractors might think concerning sgng going to the PO. It seems one of your own people is more concerned about it than any detractor.

[dobman53]

Dear Friends: If SGNG says he wants to go to a PO, I would encourage him to do so. Without saying I could never approve of anyone being disruptive, especially at a PO meeting . Though I seriuosly dought that would be SGNG's cause.

I myself have never attended a PO. Just the same I wish I could be so fortunate.

In case you might not have noticed. My daughter gave me a computer lesson.

Silly me I never new you only needed to hit the enter button twice, and wall-ahh!!!

Thoughs kids of mine have tought this old dog a brand new trick.

I was wondering to myself if I should maybe get my daughter to give me another computer lesson. On maybe! AHH! let me see here! AHH! how to cutt and paste?

NAHH!! (DOBMAN)

[dobman53]

Does anybody know exactly why SD decide to leave. I'm guessing it had to happen just the other day.

Did she give an exact reason? Or was it one of her world renowned, as always ultimately well concieved 2 or 3 word posts!!

I'm sure it must of had a bunch LOL's all over the place!

[smyrna]

It's not they could care less, Oneway, it's that they have been defeated. They have failed.

[stage_director]

Only if the term "defeated" has changed. lol I talk to you elsewhere daily, silly boy ... (and uhh, you aren't doing so well in defending your arguments, either) ;-)

[oneway]

"It is true Oneway Stage is gone."


lutheratx, can you run that past me again?

Quite possibly sd will one day leave. But if and when she does leave, it won't be because she was run off or defeated by an SCer. The thought of that is pretty amusing to say the least.

[stage_director]

Hope you boys weren't taking bets, Luther. ;-)

[lutheratx]

"The thought of that is pretty amusing to say the least." Oneway

Laugh friend, hey have a ball.

Ezekiel 2:6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.


Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

3:9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

Hey call me cult member, racist, antisemitic, the dead, unchristian, etc etc. Have tons of fun at my expense cat. I will remain true to the word (whether you think it is wrong or not) and there is no lol coming from me. Why is that, could some of us not think this is funny? Smyrna gets me laughing sometimes, but I, like Watchman, to am outraged. I realised today I can love my enemy, God showed me that 2 times in one day. So you guys, and one person at work, have even had me questioning if I could love everyone. You got to be true to yourself because God can even see when you are lying to yourself. I thank God all this research has brought me closer to him, because without him I could not love you.

Hey but I am not innocent, but maybe neither are you. So on judgement day I hope you have not been basing your beliefs on at least I'm not them. For the record you believing that Antichrist is to be born of a womb, well lets say not every one will agree with you. So strange beliefs are why you feel so free with constantly posting on a site that calls me a cult member, on hardly any concrete proof. Seems to me it is doctrinal differences. Well hey I don't think Antichrist is a wil baby, OK.

To think any of your allies understand what is taught at the SC better than me, someone who studies the doctrine everyday, well its outrageous. How long did I have to tell everybody I wasn't racist? I'm not sure they believe it know. False accusation is huge, don't under estimate that. You do it unaware so I'm almost sure God will understand, but man what it will feel like to be humbled if you learn that the accusations about me, which are based mainly on speculation, are wrong, yikes.

Have a good day


http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

[stage_director]

QUOTE
For the record you believing that Antichrist is to be born of a womb, well lets say not every one will agree with you.
END QUOTE

Who says he will?

[dobman53]

Dear Luteratx: The words I am to speak are nothing more than my own.

This world age that is now in the present. Could be summed up as a world wide court of law. Satan on the left God upon the right.

No one side shall have the edge over the other.

In the beginning God brought forth Adam and Eve to till the soil. This soil could be thought of as the plantings of truths. Trough Eve's womb Messiah would come for forgivness.

Through that same womb Satan would plant his seed of lies. One day to be born his Messiah of damnation.

As with Jesus he was born innocent, and quickly learned of his role for mankind.

The same opportunity will be given Satan. When he is kicked out of heaven. He too shall teach his seed of his role for mankind.

God would not allow Satan to have the upper hand by him magically appearing. Just as he didn't let Jesus have the upper hand for him to magically appear.

Gods court is fair neither side will get the upper hand.

At the end of the 1000 year reign Satan will make his last appearance. Followed by God the fathers first appearance.

Luther there is a lot of ground to be tilled amongst these concepts. But I thing you might get a feel of what I'm trying to say. DOB!!

[dobman53]

Dear Luther: I just now pushed the post button, and realised I should have stated.

the decenters will forever pile on us should they think we have a different take on things.



If anything it proves were not all mindless goose stepping natzi's after all.

I can feel their hearts begin to break. Thinking dog gone doe's that mean we can't blame poor old Pastor Murray again.

NAHHH!!! they proclaim: It's always Pastor Murrays fault. Besides when I slam my gates of HELL on that poor old 80 year old man, never to let him into my play ground. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

HEY!! does anybody have a drop of water hear!

[lutheratx]

I like you Dob but you are wrong.

Satan comes in full form, if he was placed in a human body it would be a loop hole for him.

John [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

this is whosoever that is of the flesh, so Satan's offspring can have everlasting life. So if Satan was to be born of woman he would be entitled to the same promises of God. If he had a human life time I realise it would be short in comparison to what he alread knows. However

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

He doesn't come alone.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

These angels will be coming back like they did in Genesis 6

1 Cor 11 [10] For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

So this 11th chapter in 1 Cor. tells us how it will not be unfair at all, if the ladies can have that power on there heads. Well you too can have power.

Eph 6[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

breastplate of righteousness, feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, shield of faith, helmet of salvation,

and

<font size="+2"> the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. </font>

I didn't make that big to make it look like I was yelling, just to emphasize what it takes, yes all of your armour is very important, other wise you would not have the courage to stand against Satan, or the salvation to be a clean vessel for God. That sword though is what you are digesting everyday, that is the weapon he cannot stand against. That is the weapon my critics cant stand against.

God has given us an advantage he has told us what would happen, and that he would be with us. Just like when he was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. However instead of standing next to us, his power will fill us upon that evil day.

Also don't forget the two witnesses. We will not be alone.

[dobman53]

Luther: I only was to say as I see it. Nothing more nothing less. This is most certainly a topic unresolved.

The point of Satan being born of woman was not in my post. Satan was to teach this seed he laid the foundation for back in the garden. (Kenite)

If Satan were to have been born of woman, we would not find ourselves in such a pickle. He too could have recieved forgivness.

###(just before i pushed the post message key i relised something so i'm inserting it here wasn't satan condemed before the garden??)###

Though as we know he refused to be born of woman, and here we are today.

In any event no one enterpratation of this sole event will change a thing for us. We both know of events to come. I'm sure should either of us be called in before Satan's throne. We know better than most to not prepare a speach.

I think it's healthy for us just the same to have a debate in front of the decenters. If only to earase from their minds of this cultish thoughts they have of us.

Between you and me, No Foul!!, No Harm!!

[lutheratx]

Yes I agree Dob between you and me there is no harm, no foul. It is clear I misunderstood you. I have been doing that lately. I thought you thought Antichrist would be born of woman. You seem like you are on track.

###just before i pushed the post message key i relised something so i'm inserting it here wasn't satan condemed before the garden??)###

Just like before you sir are very wise, you see Satan is the first sinner. I would mention more but it makes a huge fuss here. I don't spread the word here I defend it.

Dob you will always be close to my heart friend, I love you like nobodies business. You are one of the better people I have met here. You are very loving to people, and I think when you post and someone takes offense they can't see the love you have for them. Dob I accept you as an ally in Christ, your gift to me is very apparent. So don't think you have to change, realise that you are one of the strongest assets we have, I mean unconditional love flows from you. Everybody likes you, they just try to tell there selves they don't, people can't help but to like you.

Even when you say something that pushes somebodies buttons (never mine) you are always quick to come back with how much you love them. I sir would not try to change you to much, we all could use a little tweaking. I could also learn a lot from you.

[dobman53]

Luther: since my retirement, though forced it my be. I now have found myself living on a 50 foot oxygen line attatched to a machine that runs 24 hours a day.

First I must say it and of it's self is not all that bad. I can go off in my truck with a portable tank. Once I'm at my destination, I can go off the air for an hour or two. So all and all I'm still a happy go fella.

Here's the point of this message. each and every one of you. decenters included, are on my mind more than I dare admit.

Take care my friend for I think of you often DOB!

[quench]

Hi all, as I tried to read through this thread I noticed something very important, I noticed phrases like "his teachings" (as in AM's teachings) being said time and time again. Just who's teachings do you really follow? Am's or Jesus'?

Another thing I noticed is the gang mentality, certain people ban together and hi five each other and think that just because the majority agrees with them they are right. There is clearly a leader of the pack but I won't mention names because I don't want to further inflate anyone's ego.

I am not here to be insulted or ganged up upon nor am I hear to cheer anybody on, no doubt I am about to say things that will get everyone on this thread riled up so I am prepared for it.

As far as the AM gun incident some valid points where brought up on both sides. But the most disturbing part is not the gun itself, it is the unwillingness to accept or respect anybody's criticism or opinion (regardless of how they deliver it). I think it is logical to assume that the man was being disruptive but was not being threatning, if he was being threatning or had a gun himself AM would have publicized it. But AM felt threatened, not by the man's actions, but by the mans words and defiance. He is not the type of man to listen to anybody elses opinions let lone respect them, he is set in his stubborn old ways and he thinks he is supremely right, just like many people on this board that is why you always refer and defend HIS teachings.

The conversation became sidetracked with gun rights arguements and church shooting arguements and scripture being thrown about and many many insults being flung around.

The heart of the matter is that no one should be so caught up in defending any preacher or preacher's teaching. The only teachings that should be held fast to are the teachings of Jesus Christ. To Am followers please don't get bent out of shape by what I am saying, but AM has re-written The Bible, he feeds it to you line by line. At one point in my life I thought I needed an easy way to read and understand the Bible, but you don't need a TV preacher or any other preacher to give you weekly Bible lessons all you need to do is open it and the Holy Spirit will guide you.

[quench]

I watched AM for a while and quickly saw something was wrong and the accusations of racism was enough for me to go back to reading the Bible on my own, with the Holy spirit. This will be sad news for most of you to hear but THERE IS NOT ONE TV PREACHER that is teaching God's word! Not a single one! When you come to this realization on your own you will understand why I have said it. And there is not one good brick and morter church to be had! I know most of you are looking for your lynching ropes and fire making material about now, because going to church makes you feel like a good christian.

Which brings me to the Church shootings, mentioned. God allowed it to happen, maybe God is making a statement about Mega Churches, I don't know? More than likely it was a phy- ops operation but that's another story.

Just because people go to church and study the Bible, doesn't mean they are christians or saved, just because people go on TV and preach in God's name doesn't mean they are saved or right or christian either.

Should churches be armed? That is the question that has been danced around here. You can't exactly compare the 2 incidents but I certainly see why one would bring them up for comparison, the reason why they can't be compared is because the man in the latter incident was not there to challenge the preachers teachings or record the incident to prove something he was there just to kill people, and the former, it can be logicly assumed did not have a gun and was not there to kill anybody. Would if AM had hurt or killed this man or some innocent bystander? The Korean war was a long time ago and perhaps his eyes aren't what they use to be and a bit of arthitis in his hand ect,. There would be a dead person all because AM didn't want to have to defend his ideas and I do mean HIS ideas just like you all mean HIS teachings!

Jesus did not walk around with whips or stones and knives. When he whipped the money changers he did not pull a whip from off his person to do so.
If you want to make a real comparison you must look at what Jesus did when he preached, because the incident happened when AM was preaching. Did Jesus come at any of the people that he was preaching to, that came up to him and heckeled him sometimes threatning to stone him to death, with violence? Can you really beat the word and the love of God into anybody? AM is no better than Jim Jones if the answer is yes. Before you drink Am's FlaverAid you should SERIOUSLY ask yourself if he is one of the false prophets that Jesus warned you about!

[smyrna]

Welcome, Quench.

Now you know you are going to meet opposition from SC students, and here is mine:

You are oversimplifying and being overly vague in your assessment of not only Pastor Murray, but how the students defend him and why.

First of all, as many detractors have the same problem, using the term "SC teachings", or "his (Murray's) teachings",are not implications that we consider Murray's views or "teachings" on par with that of Christ.

Unless you have been in a cave and cut off form world history, Christianity has evolved over the centuries, and there has been a fragmentation and
denominationalism at work since the first theologians began to disagree with each other.

Many of those theologians in the early days became known collectively as the Early Church Fathers. And, they got together and hammered out such declarations as the Nicene Creed, and so forth.

And now, every Church, and every Pastor of those Churches, whether tied to a hierarchal denomination or independent, has a right to offer their own views as to how they perceive the teachings of Christ and God the Father through the use of the tools they have at their disposal, to hep them and their students understand Scripture.

And that is what we defend, the right to teach what a certain teacher believes.

Those who disagree with any other Church's views or teachings are certainly free to do so. However, the detractors present here, and really they have been whittled down to just one or two, do not have a right to mount smear campaigns using lies and deception, trying to destroy those who they disagree with by damaging their characters.

And if you read the threads here, regarding the Pastors of the SC,as well as the students, you will see that the critics are among the most dishonest, scheming, rumor mongering and even mentally unstable, that you may find in any forum on the Internet.

[smyrna]

Do you really see something wrong with SC students grouping together to fight off these deceivers and nut cases?

Look, I know Murray's positions are controversial, but they are, mostly due to two issues:

Detractors who, intentionally or not, distort and apply their own spin to what is taught, and two, detractors who choose to falsely accuse, or automatically agree with proven liars and false accusers without even bothering to spend any time whatsoever, even reading the SC website!

You just g ahead and read through the threads here, and then tell me whther there are critics who have:

Falsely accused the SC without offering any evidence.

Deliberately fabricated and promoted rumors with the clear intent of damaging the credibility and character of both SC's teachers, and the students.

Repeatedly accused the SC and the students of being racist, antisemitic, drunks, and sexually promiscuous, over and over, without offering one shred of evidence.

Opinions are not evidence. Hearsay is not evidence. Websites authored by lunatics that have been successfully refuted long ago are not evidence.

But to the detractors, they are.

So have at it, my friend. You are certainly free to disagree, but I'll leave you with one last thought:

Thes epople have never, been sucessful at getting anyone of note to listen to their allegations.

No major media. The SC has been on TV teaching the same things for over twenty years.

No major organization has ever referred to the SC by name, accusing it of the same things these nut jobs have.

A current investigation of financial improprieties by TV ministries does not include the SC. Detractors here have openly accused the SC of such abuses.

They have even gone as far as accusing Pastor Arnold Murray, and 80 something year old man,of either worshiping an ancient pagan deity (Baal) or having sex with animals in his barn (they couldn't agree on how to float this rumor, hence the discrepancy)on another forum thread specifically intended to be a rumor mill, without fear of any confrontation with SC students,as they were summarily banned if it were found they were students "infiltrating" the forums there.

So if you are open minded, fair and serious about learning what all the fuss is about, then by all means you should read these threads throughly, and not jump to conclusions too quickly.

[quench]

"Do you really see something wrong with SC students grouping together to fight off these deceivers and nut cases?"

What I see wrong is that you assume that anybody that doesn't believe what you believe is a nutcase. What gives you the right to deem sombody crazy just because they don't agree with you? You're a "SC " student not a student of Jesus Christ, thanks for answering my 1st question!

I agree that people need to look at the facts and examine all the evidence before they come to a conclusion but you my dear can't even do this yourself.

I wish I could read through all the post but I always end up on one of your post where you are insulting people calling them stupid and crazy it is quite sickening treading through such pompous post to try and uncover any real facts. If you have facts proving that AM is not guilty of these things you need to present them respectfully and not call people crazy and stupid just because they disagree or dare to take a critical eye at your leader AM.

"Thes epople have never, been sucessful at getting anyone of note to listen to their allegations.

...."

Well the rich man had to go to hell before he believed in God. He wanted Las. to rise from the dead to go warn his brothers, what will you say to Jesus? Chris Hansen never did an expose on SC and AM, The United States Congress never audited him! How was I suppose to know he was a false teacher?

and as far as these kind and wise words "So if you are open minded, fair and serious about learning what all the fuss is about, then by all means you should read these threads throughly, and not jump to conclusions too quickly."

I have yet to see you practice them.

Personally I don't give a dang about AM or SC because the only voice I follow is JC, I just think its sad seeing the other sheep follow the wolf.

[smyrna]

Sorry Dodge, you are not convincing me that you are new to this at all.

If you "didn't give a dang" about AM or the SC you wouldn't have signed on and started whining in the first place.

Typical detractor, contradicting himself from the getgo.

I'll try and pretend that you actually are new, but the only thing new is the name. The rest is the same tired old BS.

Try and get some new material. Otherwise your posts won't get much more attention than any other screen saver.

[quench]

smyrna, you shouldn't have tried to hide in the closet with your son, you should have given the babies back to K-Fed, Now you have to spend your weekend in the looney bin, its a good thing they let you use the internet so you won't go crazier without your daily SC/AM fix!

P.S. I didn't think your performance at the VMAs was as bad as everyone said it was.

[oneway]

"Sorry Dodge, you are not convincing me that you are new to this at all.'


smyrna, if quench is dodge, then AM is not a false teacher. That's the deal I'll make with you. lol

[quench]

Don't take that deal smyrna! Just say "No Deal"

[smyrna]

Hey Oneway, I know you are used to fellowshipping with complete nut jobs,so this guy, whoever he "Ultimately" is, brings nothing new or unique here. But you should enjoy his company.

He is, based, upon his post 11 above, right on par with "queendavid", which means I've already used up too many megs on this clown.

So maybe you both can quench your thirst at the nearest cyber-Kool-aid stand, because it's 73 degrees here, and I'm going to enjoy the weather.

[quench]

"I know you are used to fellowshipping with complete nut jobs,"

Oneway sure is use to dealing with you!

What is the address to the SC? Me and Oneway want to check out this KILLER Kool-Aid that you keep raving on about! Do they sell nikes and purple capes in the SC bookstore too?

Would you like me to call the fire department so that they can take off the wall to your bedroom so that you can get out and enjoy the weather, hun?

Peace or sword? Choose PEACE smyrna!

[terluvire]

<font color="0000ff">quench, you should take your own advice and get outside and enjoy the sunshine.

Too funny, you talk about Smyrna spending time on this forum, yet you are doing the same thing...lol

Go figure....</font>

[lutheratx]

This guy really thinks that SC students are intimidated by him. Well quench in the past I would have chosen sword, and I still chose sword. I live by the sword, and I will die by the sword, but not the sword that was referred to by Christ when correcting Peter. You are not that tough fella, I for one don't scare easily, if at all. I have reverence of the Father, not you.

Matthew 10:28 <font color="ff0000">And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.</font> 10:29<font color="ff0000"> Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.</font> 10:30 <font color="ff0000">But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.</font> 10:31 <font color="ff0000">Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.</font> 10:32 <font color="ff0000">Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.</font> 10:33<font color="ff0000"> But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.</font> 10:34 <font color="ff0000">Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.</font>

Of course I will show you why have become ghost on these talks lately.

Mat 10:13 <font color="ff0000">And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.</font>

The only time I don't have peace is when I share it with the unworthy. That peace of mind that makes it so I can sleep at night, I had it when I was posting here, but not for those few seconds when the debate got heated. I don't need that everyday. I want to do other things like enjoy the weather.

Oneway are you an expert, you have confessed you don't have a teacher, other than Christ. I can see that as being reputable. Just a question though, how many times have you read the manuscripts? Have you even gotten through the Holy bible? Well Murray has read the manuscripts quite a bit, and you want me to take some advice from you. I have seen your understanding of Revelations, no thanks. I don't want to offend you, but you always say rotten things like....

"then AM is not a false teacher." Oneway

I do have admiration for the man, I don't know where you guys get the fact you cant admire a man. Is it here?

Luk 14:26 <font color="ff0000">If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.</font>

Do you hate your mother Oneway?

Well if you kept saying bad things about my siblings I would eventually get tired of it. Who wouldn't? Murray is my brother in Christ, and I am fond of him. So you sit very low on my scale of people I love, I have love for you, but man I want you to be humbled. I almost want it to be in the millennium, however I would except that you received the truth now. Other wise I would have had to say Saul was not worthy, but guess what he was humbled. It was brought up more than once, his conversion, because I believe the memory of it bothered him.

I believe your memory of this will bother you one day. That day maybe a thousand years though.

You know I still think about my drug addiction almost everyday, it is a thorn in my side. I have been humbled and it may come again. I hope so, because good always comes of it.

[quench]

"quench, you should take your own advice and get outside and enjoy the sunshine.

Too funny, you talk about Smyrna spending time on this forum, yet you are doing the same thing...lol

Go figure...."

This is my 1st day on the forum, there is a big difference than spending a day on a forum and spending ones ENTIRE life on a forum, look at the name that has dominated this board I can assure you it does not start with a Q, at least not yet!

[quench]

lutheratx, you took a big risk setting your pearls before swine!

Do any of you really think I have come here to talk the way I have these past few post? Do you really think I cme to intimidate anyone? It has yet to dawn on any of you that all I am doing is mimicking the way you talk to people that disagree with you!

In all fairness, lutheratx, I can't exactly include you in that bad behavior because I have not read enough of your post, but I can assume you high five those that do act like this as long as they support scam. Apparantly I am not worthy of peace? I don't think Jesus got much peace either so I don't mind being treated the same way My Lord and teacher Jesus Christ was treated. I don't know WHO your father is, it could be lucifer or father time, frankly you have not named YOUR father.

Madelyn Murrey Ohair knew the Bible back &amp; forth up and down, Anton Levay also knew the Bible with his eyes closed. I guess you should also follow thier teachings, by your logic, ANYBODY who has studied the bible and knows it upside down is a worthy Bible Teacher. Are your own eyes broke? Why are YOU not worthy of reading the Bible and all its history and studiying it FOR YOURSELF? Why do you have to have another sinner read it for you? Are you not smart enough to study the Bible for yourself?

You can admire Hitler or Elvis or Mother Theresa for all I care just be honest with yourself.

out of curiosity may I ask why you admire AM?

You are taking the scripture in a literal way Jesus is not saying to hate everyone, that would contridict his teachings about love he is saying that in terms of your love for him you should not put anybody else before him including your mother.
In otherwards how are you going to follow Jesus 100 percent when you care more about what your wife or mother? In otherwards Jesus is the foundation of Love not your mothers love not your brothers love, We would be here all night counting the people that really do hate thier parents or siblings because they were wronged by them. How would you build a house of love if your foundation is suppose to be your mother and your mother abandoned you or abused you or chose drugs over you. further clarified in context of the passage

28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,


Why is Murray your brother in Christ? We claim to be followers of Christ and you just said we are not worthy of your time let alone your love.

Are you sure your not going to have regrets when Jesus sends you away and you say "Didn't I do this and this in the name of Christ" and Jesus says "I knew you not!"

Thank you for sharing your story about drug addiction but I hope you haven't simply replaced one addiction for another.

[dobman53]

Quench: may I have the next dance!

round and round we go.

with each of your dips we know them as so.

you bow and you curtsie forever with gleam.

for the fool that you are it's only a dream.

In fine suits you do adorn, top hat, and a cane.

Yet so tired we've drawn, is it once more again.

Soon a another tap on the shoulder, you staighten your bow.

To turn around and find Dob just administered the blow.

Staggered as you were though soon to regain sight.

you stumbled to the door, and bid all a good night.

DOB.

[lutheratx]

"Madelyn Murrey Ohair knew the Bible back &amp; forth up and down, Anton Levay also knew the Bible with his eyes closed." Quench

The manuscripts are written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and greek. So these atheist I assure you did not read the manuscripts.

"Why are YOU not worthy of reading the Bible and all its history and studying it FOR YOURSELF?"

I think you need to read some of my post, I do read the bible, there is nothing wrong with having a bible teacher though. Did Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. teach the bible? Now Murray is not getting prophecy, his gift is different. God has blessed him with the ability to read the manuscripts and with a good memory. God is giving me the gift of good long term memory, because I do remember what I read if I go over it enough.

"out of curiosity may I ask why you admire AM?" Quench

I answered that above. I admire his conviction, he has tons of you disliking him, and it doesn't stop him. He is not scared of you people.

The greek word for hate in

Luk 14:26 <font color="ff0000">If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.</font>

is miseo (transliterated) and can also mean love less. These guys say I am in a cult because I admire my bible teacher. I was just trying to understand where they get this from the bible, you know that we can't admire each other.

"We claim to be followers of Christ and you just said we are not worthy of your time let alone your love." Quench

"Claim" that is the key word right here, if you don't come with biblical understanding, I am not to receive you as a brother, unless you are willing to learn. I already posted the second epistle of John today, make sure you read verse 9-11. Pay close attention to "and bring not this doctrine".

Murray is my brother because I believe him to come with the doctrine of Christ.

Nice try buddy, I study almost everyday, and sometimes for hours. I am new, but I study to show myself approved.

For the record I would humiliate either one of the two atheist/satanist, you mentioned, in debate, except they are already on the wrong side of the gulf, I think. Nothing would surprise me though.

[dobman53]

Quench knows nothing of a gulf. for all he knows he thinks you must be speaking of them on vacation in Mexico.

DOBMAN!

(Message edited by dobman53 on January 05, 2008)

[quench]

"The manuscripts are written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and greek. So these atheist I assure you did not read the manuscripts."

You have not quoted one word in Hebrew, Aramaic, and greek!!!!!!!!! You have quoted from the KJV.
The same KJV they know by heart, and if you did quote them Hebrew, Aramaic, and greek they'd still be abler to run circles arouund you, but that is not my point my point WAS THAT they KNOW the Bible that doesn't mean you should FOLLOW someone just because they KNOW the Bible!

The Holy Spirit is your Bible teacher, The reson having a Bible teacher IS rong, is because you idelize him more than Jesus Christ! You defend him more than you defend Jesus Christ. And you have lost the ability to judge AM with Rightous judgement ie scrutiny.

"Murray is my brother because I believe him to come with the doctrine of Christ"

Would if your BELIEFS are wrong?

"Claim" that is the key word right here, if you don't come with biblical understanding, I am not to receive you as a brother, unless you are willing to learn. "

Wow your eliteism touches my heart, how is it you have no problem determining that non scam believers are not real christians but you don't even dare to put AM under this same scrutiny! Maybe you missed Mathew 7 (beam in eye)?

"Nice try buddy, I study almost everyday, and sometimes for hours. I am new, but I study to show myself approved"

And that is what being a Christian is all about, putting your self on a high horse so you can look down on others. That is why many people go to church you know, not to humble themselves before the Lord so that they can learn to live life in Christ's footsteps, but so they can act like they are better than everybody else.

"I would humiliate either one of the two atheist/satanist"

I think they'd send you running home to mommy with pee pee in your pants.

you'd be relying on SCAM and not the Holy spirit therefore they'd most definately have you tounge tied and twisted with the very scriptures you thought you could get them with.
But that is besides the point, another example, JIM JONES knew the Bible back and forth upside down, would you follow Jim Jones because he knows the Bible?

"Quench knows nothing of a gulf."
dobman53 KNOWS NOTHING!

[quench]

I forgot a coiple of things

"I answered that above. I admire his conviction, he has tons of you disliking him, and it doesn't stop him. He is not scared of you people. "

The same can be said for Hitler, Jeffry Dahmer, Madonna, ect,.

Ofcourse this is a bit diffrent than admiring say a pop star or a poet, or a serial killer, because you are admiring a Bible teacher. Despite all the warnings the Bible gives about false prophets/teachers you give him unchecked admiration, you might be shockwed tyo hear this, but God is not necassarily going to stop you from admiring/believing in a false prophet, God may even make it easier for you to fall prey to them.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


Middle French admirer, to marvel at, from Latin admirari, from ad- + mirari to wonder, from mirus astonishing
Date: 1560
transitive verb
1: to regard with admiration
2archaic : to marvel at

ad·mi·ra·tion
Pronunciation: \&amp;#716;ad-m&amp;#601;-&amp;#712;r&amp;#257;-sh&amp;#601;n\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1archaic : wonder
2: an object of esteem
3: delighted or astonished approbation

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

[lutheratx]

"You have not quoted one word in Hebrew, Aramaic, and greek!!!!!!!!! You have quoted from the KJV."

This is actually a lie, I quote meseo earlier today, you must have missed it. Meseo is a translitterated word for a Greek word meaning to love less or hate. However I never said I read the manuscripts.

"Oneway are you an expert, you have confessed you don't have a teacher, other than Christ. I can see that as being reputable. Just a question though, how many times have you read the manuscripts? Have you even gotten through the Holy bible? Well Murray has read the manuscripts quite a bit, and you want me to take some advice from you. I have seen your understanding of Revelations, no thanks. I don't want to offend you, but you always say rotten things like.... " Me

This is what was said orginally, and I do use hebrew and greek in my post from time to time.

I don't put Murray before Christ, hey Einstein you are not saying bad things about Christ. You are the accuser I am the defender, so if you accuse, I wont go off and defend someone you have not accused. I have used the word of God all day today, showing that I trust in the word of God not in quotes from some flesh man.

" how is it you have no problem determining that non scam believers are not real christians but you don't even dare to put AM under this same scrutiny!" Quench

Hey you don't know if I check Murray out or not,
you are not here when I am studying. However I am to test the fruit, you have offered nothing
but accusations today with nothing to back them up. I will say it again the Second Epistle of John clearly puts me in the right when I don't recieve those that come without the doctrine of Christ. Let me say the way you say things to accuse is more likened to a Pharisee. So I am testing the fruit. You don't hardly offer any scripture and you want me to except your words over the word of God, because Murray reads the bible chpt by chpt, you have used a piece of a Chpt to accuse me of being a false prophet, you have used two verses other than that, and now a reference to me judging you. You may be very valuable to God, Saul was, but right now I have the right to discern whether you should be listened too. How else will I know the difference in a person spoken of in Ezekiel 13 saying God has said, or someone that is a good bible teacher? I am to use discernment.

"That is why many people go to church you know, not to humble themselves before the Lord so that they can learn to live life in Christ's footsteps, but so they can act like they are better than everybody else."

I told you I was an ex drug addict, what more do you want. I don't look down on people trying but I do look down on false accusation, and false teaching. I am to do that, you can continue your studies and realise you are wrong, but I am to correct people who are wrong. How many times did Jesus correct the Pharisees, they were looked at as the religio community, and they were corrected on the treatment of the Sabbath, on washing before eating, on being a good neighbor, the list goes on. Maybe you think that just because a man cofesses Christ that he should be free of correction, but in 2nd Corinthians 11 we are taught that

11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Also I will mention Ezekiel 13 again and again when referring to these discussion. You are saying God say's and God is not using you.

"You'd be relying on SCAM and not the Holy spirit therefore they'd most definately have you tounge tied and twisted with the very scriptures you thought you could get them with." Quench

[lutheratx]

Cont.
I assure you I would not have pee in my pants, and I have debated many an atheist. I have used only one thing in my battle and that is the word of God, what makes you think I would all of a sudden start saying well my preacher says. It is abundantly clear you are a false accuser with the way you are dealing with me. You don't even know me, and you deffinately don't know if I use Murryisms or use the holy bible as my defense. I do in fact use the holy bible and guess what I know that Murray did not write it, and that Jesus was the living word. So your false accusations fall short.

So you are the one getting all high and mighty because you claim the Holy Spirit is your only teacher. However you can not except the fact that others like a good bible teacher. There is nothing wrong in listening to a man that offers good fruit. Cornelius listened to Peter, Saul listened to Gamaliel, Christ sent the disciples to the lost sheep of Israel, Elisha listened to Elijah, and after all the book of Revelations was brought back with John, if no one considered it to be of the spirit we would not have valuable warnings of the generation we are now living in. It is OK to listen to man if there fruit is good.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Why would his fruit produce so many if he was not spreading the word? You can listen to someone who knows the word of God more than you it is OK. Not everyone who is a teacher is of the devil. Everyone of you critics, and I mean every one does not have a church or bible teacher. Do you say scholarly works like the Strongs are useless? Well guess what Doctor Strong was a man.

[dobman53]

Quench: I have to hand it to ya! you've convinced me of my wrong ways. The above post of yours is a masterpiece. The knowledge within is outstanding. you are a true genius through and through. I tip my hat to you.

You know with me being so stupid and all, could you help a lesser brother than your self out with a question or two.

Above you posted admiration then Pronunciation:

then /&amp;#716;ad-m&amp;#601;-&amp;#712;r&amp;#257;sh&amp;#601;n/

Forgive me for being so slow, but what the heck do all them sighns and numbers mean. Is it some sorta Greek or is that Hebrew. A smart fella like yourself has got me all confused.

or is that there that, Ah!! whats that again there, Ah!! some cutt and some sorta paste lingo?

Aht! dang! uses one smart feller.

Your admiring new friend DOB!

[lutheratx]

"but God is not necassarily going to stop you from admiring/believing in a false prophet, God may even make it easier for you to fall prey to them." Quench

You have not done anything to prove Murray is a false prophet, you like the others have just gave accusations. Also if God is the one doing the blinding does that mean I go to hell? Probably according to you, I am destined for it.

You said Murray is the one warned about in 2 Cor 11, when Murray teaches about the false Christ coming. Here are the ones Paul is talking about.

2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

that is why he says this.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

He is warning of false Christs, and the chief desolator. Murray teaches the Antichrist comes as Christ, he warns of the Antichrist. The false prophets lead you to Antichrist, thus the Jewish messiah, the rapture, the Prophet Jesus for the Muslims (who destroys the Dajjal one of our two witnesses), so on and so on. It is you that is blind, and can not see the big picture. The fact that people like the Baha'i are trying to bring the world under one God.

I am sure if you revealed more about yourself you would show your doctrine leads to Antichrist. So what is it that you believe, is it in a rapture, or do you believe Satan is not going to claim to be Christ, which is it? Or is it something else? Do you warn that the rapture is false and that Antichrist is coming to deceive the world, even the Christians. This is why Christ will say I never knew you, it is because people have not taken time to get to know the Father. He is very approachable spiritually, if you will only study to show yourself approved.

I did not read your post number 30 until after I posted so it is just coincidence that we both posted 2 Cor 11.

Of course you don't understand it. Paul says

11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

I am not married to Murray spiritually speaking, I am waiting for the return of Jesus. However it is the false Christians that teach a rapture, or that the angels from the abyss are good guys, that will have you giving suck on the day Christ returns. You are not a virgin if you are nursing a baby. I will fight Antichrist reign, I am not a false Christian.

I use bible documentation, that means I trust in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

[smyrna]

Dobman, I loved post 362. Outstanding! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

This clown says he is for peace but comes on here taunting the SC folks and claiming to be playing some game. He'll probably then complain why no one takes him seriously.

Ever wonder why these people have a problem with other's beliefs? I bet when they take a break from their computer, they spend that time peeking out of their windows at their neighbors.

It seems this guy is just another one on some quasi-messianic mission, and goes about it in typical detractor style.

And that can manifest itself in many ways. Take our banished astronaut friend for instance. He said he came to FactNet to "enlighten" SC students,and then spent the next year and a half ranting and raving about SCers being heretics, racists, and antisemitic.

What a tactful approach.

And Stage Director, who has spent the last year making accusation after accusation, yet provided evidence for only about one and one half of them, among the other silly tricks she has tried.(and failed)

Now we have this Quench guy, who is probably on his second or third go around here, bringing nothing new or unique, and he is hinting that his true mission is to enlighten us.

Yeah, sure. He's so lazy, he hasn't even bothered to brush up on the topics. His comments on the gun incident are so devoid of facts, it's obvious he doesn't know them, or rather is pretending not to know.

And his position about it reminds me of the always absurd Sharon, not to mention Stage Director, whose only ally regarding the incident is our resident genius Oneway.

We had sideliners come out of the woodwork, if you read this thread, commenting about the irrationality of Stage Director's view that
Churches who hire security or protect themselves in any way are faithless frauds and cowards.

And what does this guy Quench choose to comment on right off the bat? The gun incident, and he takes the side of Stage Director and Oneway. No wonder they like him. They are desperate for some support.

Hey Stage Director, why don't you get this sap to write to your Pig Tree email and then you can send him a list of your false allegations? That way he can have some "real" ammo to use, instead of the proverbial rubber band and paper clips he's using now.

After all, wouldn't it be nice to see this guy paste decades old SC newsletters on the threads here?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[stage_director]

Oh, good idea, sport ... I'll send him some of my false allegations such as Murray's actual audios where he confirms just about everything I've said about him. Oh, wait! I think Quench has probably already got all the proof he needs. My bad ... I forgot that it's YOU who needs to be enlightened.

[smyrna]

"Oh, good idea, sport ... I'll send him some of my false allegations"...

Now we are getting somewhere.

By the way, allegations are not audio tapes. Your unique interpretations of those tapes contain plenty of false allegations.

[dobman53]

SD: Your blushing again. I told you to keep your little fingers out of the cookie jar.

But no, you just wouldn't listen now would you.

Whack! As smyrna smacks the lid down on your little fingers, and now you just stand there, and cry!

If you would just be a good little girl, why smyrna would kiss your little fingers and make it all just right.

Your pen pal DOB!

[stage_director]

Dob, come on now ... Open up your eyes (you can do it!) Smyrna never really proves me wrong. He simply claims he does and doesn't know the difference. Do try to pay attention, guy ... ;-)

[dobman53]

SD: Sugar blossom old dobman here plays the role of the fool quite well don't you think! Actually I'm not that old but it does sound good.

In all truthfulness I can hold my own with any man. be it Cosmologist theory, Geology, Genetic, Numismatics, To name but a few. I am a man who wears a coat of many colors.

Certainly in this computer world one could say just about anything, and still look like a fool just the same.

SD: lets just say I do have a we bit of ensight. For you see I am a quick study. I'm not out to seek anyones admiration none what so ever. But alas I've come to know you fare better than one might think. SD I like you. My wish for you is to simply tame that which concerns me.

Your pen pal DOB!

[smyrna]

"Smyrna never really proves me wrong."

You are a pathological liar.

In the span of about one week, I proved:

That you were lying by saying I was banned from the Figtree. The proof can be found on the Newly Discovered Material... thread.

And even on this thread, you can see from the posts on 12/12/07 and onward, that she was WRONG when she claimed that Kim Frederick left FactNet because she "got wise" to "that ministry":

"Let's be thankful that the original poster seems to have been an SC student that got wise to that ministry. That's the whole point, and that's worth celebrating."

Too bad her celebration was short lived, because she was proven WRONG.

Finally, if she still thinks she was right about calling ministries who use armed protection "imposters, frauds and cowards" which had people coming out of the woodwork on this very thread to tell her how WRONG she was, then it just shows how sick she is.

And the fact she claims I have never proven her wrong is yet another thing she is wrong about.

[oneway]

"You said Murray is the one warned about in 2 Cor 11, when Murray teaches about the false Christ coming. Here are the ones Paul is talking
about.

2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not
received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

that is why he says this.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

If this is true, then Paul must have been thinking
the false christ was going to be manifested during his lifetime. Those verses make it clear that Paul was speaking in the present tense, as in 'during his lifetime', not as in some 2000 years or so later. In other words, Paul wasn't speaking prophetically. He was speaking to what was occurring there during that time.

[stage_director]

Oneway, don't you think he could have been speaking about then and now? I mean, all scripture is for our benefit, too. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[smyrna]

Hey, Stage Director,

Do you really think that people who are just readers can't see that you are avoiding the fact that I have proved you wrong?

How silly of you to try such a foolish tactic.

[stage_director]

Hey, Smyrna,

In your dreams, boy ...

How silly of you to come to that foolish conclusion.

[dobman53]

Oneway: It sounds to me, like your having trouble packing your suitcase. Maybe if you unpacked 1/2 the BS you got in that bag you could figure it out.

DOB!

[smyrna]

No, not in my dreams right here on this very thread.

And I am glad that you are playing this game, pretending that you don;t see the evidence that is so painfully obvious to everyone else.

My post 52 above shows precisely where one can find the evidence that I proved your silly allegations were wrong.

So keep denying it, because it shows you must be
out of your mind to claim otherwise.

[quench]

"This is actually a lie, I quote meseo earlier today, you must have missed it. Meseo is a translitterated word for a Greek word meaning to love less or hate. However I never said I read the manuscripts. "

Well pardon me, are you FLUENT in hebrew, greek and aramaic and can you read latin and understand it without having to read someone else's English translation?

You fail to see the point being made, anyway, you think you are smarter because you can quote a word in latin, a click of a mouse and we all can too!

"Murray has read the manuscripts"

WHEN DID MURRAY LEARN ARABIC,GREEK,HEBREW, and LATIN????????????????????????????????????????

In Korea? Again there are many false prophets who know the Bible in all of its manuscripts and translations! There are many Bible haters who can do the same! You shouldn't follow someone just because they seem scholarly and know the Bible and know the manuscripts!

"I don't put Murray before Christ, hey Einstein you are not saying bad things about Christ. You are the accuser I am the defender, so if you accuse, I wont go off and defend someone you have not accused. I have used the word of God all day today, showing that I trust in the word of God not in quotes from some flesh man."

Why are you defending AM? by defending him, you have made your self his counsil ie you are invested in his innocence regardless of wether or not he is guilty, which means your job is not to look at the facts and decide, your job is to twist the facts so that your client is proven not guilty. And you win the case.

Why don't you try being an impartial juror for once?

cont...

[oneway]

"Oneway, don't you think he could have been speaking about then and now? I mean, all scripture is for our benefit, too"


Sd, perhaps you misunderstand me. The context seems to be speaking of what was taking place at the time. Lutheratx was implying that this has to do with the physical antichrist in the future, thus ignoring context.


4 *For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


And yes, I believe that those verses also apply to us now, but they were originally stated to the hearers at that time in history for their benefit.
I just don't feel they apply the way AM says they do. If they do, then I just haven't seen it yet.

But I do agree 100% with what you stated: "don't you think he could have been speaking about then and now?"

[smyrna]

Ramble on, Dodge. You need to get your dosage adjusted.

[quench]

"Hey you don't know if I check Murray out or not,
you are not here when I am studying."

I am here when you are typing in defence of him, I really do hope that God reveals the truth to you when you are reading the Bible and studying.

" However I am to test the fruit, you have offered nothing
but accusations today with nothing to back them up."

Don't worry about my fruit, although you are welcome to test it, It is AM's fruit that YOU EAT everyday, you should be examining the fruits of his work. I don't know what to tell you, because you may never get a smoking gun telling you that AM is a false prophet, all you may ever get is an instinct or suspicians. If a neighbor told you do not drink your tap water it has been contaminated with fecal matter, or you going to keep drinking it until you get scientific proof?

" I will say it again the Second Epistle of John clearly puts me in the right when I don't recieve those that come without the doctrine of Christ."

What chapter and verse are you talking about?
Answer my example as I have to repeat MYSELF,

ex)Which would you choose? You preach to a pedaphile and he does not accept you and you leave his door never to return and he continues to rape and kill 100's of kids or you preach every day for 100 days DESPITE not being accepted and the 101st day he repents and you have just saved hundreds of children's lives.

" Let me say the way you say things to accuse is more likened to a Pharisee."

It would only be likened to a Pharisee if you think AM is likened to Jesus christ!!!

" So I am testing the fruit. You don't hardly offer any scripture and you want me to except your words over the word of God,"

I could post the whole Bible and it wouldn't matter because 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


and I can say this because not only did I quote you verses I quoted the MOST of the paragraph so that the vesrses were in context, ironicly enough they all talked about false prophets within the same paragraaph as the verses I quoted.


Quoting the bible doesn't make you a Christian!
Jesus didn't pass out Bible!
The Bible in the form that you quote DID NOT EVEN EXIST!
You referred to Romans which would mean that IT IS NOT NECASSARY to OWN or READ a Bible to be a saved Christian.

[oneway]

"Oneway: It sounds to me, like your having trouble packing your suitcase. Maybe if you unpacked 1/2 the BS you got in that bag you could
figure it out.

DOB!"


You think so dob? It doesn't take much to figure out that you scers are wrong more times than you are right. I'll be generous and estimate that 96% of the time you scers are wrong, well...that only leaves 4% left that you are right.

Just to be fair, I would est that 94% of the time I'm right, and 6% of the time I'm wrong. It's really more like 99% of the time I'm right, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm almost perfect. LOL!!!

[quench]

"because Murray reads the bible chpt by chpt, "

Yeah and, your point is? The reason I believe he reads you the Bible chapter by chapter is so he can give you HIS version of what it means. I could take any quote out of context and use it to mean whatever I want it to, but he simply reads it to you and gives you how it is according to him. For your sake I hope he is right.

"you have used a piece of a Chpt to accuse me of being a false prophet,"

Are you Murrey? The truth comes out in a Freudian slip!!!!!

" you have used two verses other than that, and now a reference to me judging you."

Now you know why I didn't want to put my pearls before swine! to you quoting verses is a CONTEST and the winner QUOTES THE MOST VERSES.
JUDGE ME all you want, just do it with RIGHTOUS Judgement wich means you need to judge AM with the same standards!

" You may be very valuable to God, Saul was, but right now I have the right to discern whether you should be listened too. How else will I know the difference in a person spoken of in Ezekiel 13 saying God has said, or someone that is a good bible teacher? I am to use discernment."

I am not trying to be your Bible teacher I am trying to get you to see that the HOLY SPIRIT is your Bible teacher! Besides that Jesus Christ did not spend his life nose deep stufying a Bible nor did he spend his life writing a Bible or preaching from a Bible. You act like reading the bible earns you points on your salvation report card.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Which means that YOU DON'T NEED A BIBLE TO BE SAVED!

If you keep acting like quoting bible scriptures is a game and the winner quotes the most, then I am not going to quote any, I respect God's word TOO MUCH to play games with you when it comes to scripture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your to concerned with how many I quoted to even understand why I quoted it or what it means.

[quench]

"I told you I was an ex drug addict, what more do you want."

Are you replacing one drug for another? is Scam another fix/high to keep your mind off drugs?

" I don't look down on people trying but I do look down on false accusation, and false teaching."

Then why are you defending Scam? Shepard'sChapelArnoldMurray=SCAM the name says it all!

"I am to do that, you can continue your studies and realise you are wrong,"

Thank you for telling me what I am suppose to do, if I do all my chores will I get my allowance? Your not my daddy, so quit telling me what i am suppose to do.

" but I am to correct people who are wrong."

This is Your job? You and YOU alone are the only authorized person that can do this?

" How many times did Jesus correct the Pharisees, they were looked at as the religio community, and they were corrected on the treatment of the Sabbath, on washing before eating, on being a good neighbor, the list goes on. Maybe you think that just because a man cofesses Christ that he should be free of correction, but in 2nd Corinthians 11 we are taught that

11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. "

What are you talking about? I am the one correcting you, anyway, I am not religious, you are the follower of a Church called Shepard's Chapel, NOT ME!

"Also I will mention Ezekiel 13 again and again when referring to these discussion. You are saying God say's and God is not using you. "

Can you make your points clearer? I could take the time to figure this out but I don't have that much time, maybe better proofreading and you could resay this in a different way.

seems like you just throw out any verse or chapter to the wall and you hope it sticks or at least that nobody sees it fall to the floor.

I hope you can see how utterly useless it is to be so CARELESS with God's word!

[quench]

"Ramble on, Dodge. You need to get your dosage adjusted."

When did Dodge join this conversation? I assume you mean Quench, My very existance has made you into a raving lunatic biting your tail chasing imaginary aliases. Thank You for giving me all that power!

(Hey Dodge only you and I know how funny this really is, oh wait, I was suppose to be oneway what happened to that idea? i guess when Oneway and Quench started arguing amongst ourselves the idea of a house divided amongst itself was even too bizarre for smyrna so she gave it up, I'll have to argue with Dodge until I get accused of being Stage_directer ect,. ect,. ect,. )

[quench]

"then /&amp;#716;ad-m&amp;#601;-&amp;#712;r&amp;#257;sh&amp;#601;n/

Forgive me for being so slow, but what the heck do all them sighns and numbers mean. Is it some sorta Greek or is that Hebrew. A smart fella like yourself has got me all confused.

or is that there that, Ah!! whats that again there, Ah!! some cutt and some sorta paste lingo?"

I was establishing that admire means to marvel, dumbass, I mean DOB, besides I leave it to you to miss the POINTS and only see the STAR(S).

[oneway]

"Nice acting job, though. I'm impressed."


Yes, smyrna, it sure would be a nice acting job, except for one minor detail. I don't see anyone acting.

[smyrna]

Hey Oneway,

If you can't see that Dodge is passing himself off as "Quench" I can't help you.

[oneway]

"I was suppose to be oneway what happened to that idea?"


LOL I must have missed that post. smyrna actually accused you of being me?

If I were like I was back in the old days, I could have a field day in here. It's very tempting to say the least, but fortunanetly I have a little more self control over my actions now.

[dodge]

Hey Quench -- I don’t feel like playing this game. Why don’t we just rise above it and have a discussion, a mutually respectful exchange of ideas and put aside all this petty attack rhetoric? First, I’ll explain my position in relationship to Arnold Murray and the Shepherds Chapel. Although I’ve been an active critic in the past, I’ve mellowed over the past few months after reading all these threads, doing research online, reading the discussion forums at Fig Tree Café and the Elect Forum, and doing research into the beliefs and ideas of these ShepChaps. It is my considered opinion that they are merely a sect of Christianity with a different interpretation of the Bible than others, and have the right to their beliefs. I don’t see any evidence of anti-Semitism or racist behavior, only accusations that have never been proven. Kenites, Serpent Seed, Prior Earth Age, and Satan having sex with Eve in the Garden of Eden…it’s all the same to me and seems no different than other Christian mythologies such as angels, devils, holy ghosts, virgin births, giants, arks filled with animals, people turning into pillars of salt, seas parting at the wave of a stick, burning bushes that talk, and angry gods that destroy people if they dare worship other gods. All I see here is “my myth is better and more true than your myth.” You might as well argue with each other who is more powerful, Superman or the Silver Surfer.

I have to head out to the health club now; so I'll leave you children to play in your little sandbox. Sorry to interrupt, you can now continue to toss crap at each other, call each other names, and be all the Christian that you can be. Have fun.

[quench]

"Cont.
I assure you I would not have pee in my pants, and I have debated many an atheist. I have used only one thing in my battle and that is the word of God, what makes you think I would all of a sudden start saying well my preacher says."

Your really a bit arrogant and a lot naive to think that only a Christian knows the Bible, that is the point I was trying to make. You said you follow SCAM because AM knows the Bible. How many other people are you going to follow just because they know the bible?

I don't even taken athiest or wiccans with such arrogance!!!!!! Quite frankly no matter How many times you have read the Bible they can quote you something that might have you stumped for WEEKS!
Often times they ARE people who were raised by very religious Bible thumping parents! Don't be so arrogant as to think you can go up against one with your scam teachings and win a debate.

Besides it is not about winning! it is about Undertsanding what you believe and why you believe it by discussing what you believe with other people and understanding what they believe and why they believe it.

If I am wrong about something I want to be told! I have often been wrong! When I read through this thread I considered all of the arguements, you made valid points

1)maybe the man had a weapon
2)maybe he was threatning
ect.,
3)Jesus whipped the moneychangers
I considered them and I considered the counter
1) If he had a weapon AM would have said so because it would make his actions justified about it
2)all he did was ask a question/disagreed see answer 1)
3)Was the man changing money? No he was asking questions/disagreeing.

I came to the conclusion that the latter arguements are more logical and plausible.

You guys don't even want to consider the other side of the issue/arguments.

ex) You have a glass of water, someone puts a kitty cigar in it (a turd) someone else takes the turd out, is that glass of water still pure?

You guys are drinking Murrays turd water. You can't see the turd because he took it out, you can see things floating but a thirsty person can easily dismiss those things. It is still water, it will still quench your thirst, if you drink enough of it you might even build a tolerance for it or you might get sick. Either way a truth is nolonger true if one bit of lie has been added, the same way water is nolonger good to drink if one single turd has been added.

[quench]

" It is abundantly clear you are a false accuser with the way you are dealing with me. You don't even know me,"

You mean listening to you and answering every single point and question yo have asked me? Forgive me if I get a lil sarcastic now and then, but it could be worst, i could be treating you the way Smyrna treats Stage_director, or the way I treat Smyrna!

" and you deffinately don't know if I use Murryisms or use the holy bible as my defense."

i know what you show me on this board. isn't Murryism a Murryism?

"I do in fact use the holy bible "
So does Madelyn Murrey O'hare! Slave Owners USED the Bible to justify slavery! Mormans USE the Bible to justify polygamy.
Using the Bible DOES NOT MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN.

"and guess what I know that Murray did not write it, and that Jesus was the living word. So your false accusations fall short."

He just re=wrote it, dear. Your not on trial, if you are you put yourself on trial, I didn't ask you to speak to me so stop playing the martyr, you chose to talk to me and put your life and beliefs on blast!

"So you are the one getting all high and mighty because you claim the Holy Spirit is your only teacher."
What is wrong about the Holy Spirit being your only Bible teacher? I am not saying that you can't read what other people think about a verse or chapter, The Bible says ALL KNOWLEDGE can be used for God's good! What tends to happen is that people REPLACE the Holy spirit with somebodies teaching/interpretation.

I look and I see what do catholics say a bad a verse, what do Jews think about a verse what do ancient chinese monks think about a verse But I don't turn around and become thier students and follow them to China and defend thier honor on the internet.

" However you can not except the fact that others like a good bible teacher."

For your sake I hope he is "GOOD".

"There is nothing wrong in listening to a man that offers good fruit."

hee hee, Tell that to Eve!


Just because some one offers you something and they call it good, and it taste good, doesn't mean that it is good for you, as a former drug addict you of all people ought to know this.

"Cornelius listened to Peter, Saul listened to Gamaliel, Christ sent the disciples to the lost sheep of Israel, Elisha listened to Elijah, and after all the book of Revelations was brought back with John, if no one considered it to be of the spirit we would not have valuable warnings of the generation we are now living in. It is OK to listen to man if there fruit is good."

Define good fruit!
What is the good fruit that Murray has produced?
Jesus warned you about false prophets more than he ever told you to go out and find yourself a good Bible teacher, in fact i don't have any verses where Jesus talks about studying under a good Bible teacher, but I have TONS of verses where Jesus WARNS YOU ABOUT BAD BIBLE TEACHERS THAT CLAIM THEY ARE GOOD!

[smyrna]

Though I think it is an amazing "coincidence" that Dodge showed up on this thread the same day as "Quench" I also suspect trsnheaven/Ultimate1/foak of being this Quench character.

Could be, it's fun to try and figure it all out.

The reason why I think it could possibly be Ultimate1, is that U1 used the same or similar
sophomoric style language.

In any case, I'm not going to go through all this stuff again. If he is so lazy he can't do his own homework, and look up and down the thread titles which cover his issues, then I'm not going to do his homework for him.

The guy really needs to find a purpose for himself.

[quench]

Ladies and Gents you can officially announce that Quench SURE AS HELL ain't DODGE!!!!!!!!!!
Quench and Dodge are as different as the doctrines Dodge just announced to be the same.

Despite the gamelike way I engaged Smyrna and introduced myself, I don't see people caught up in a false doctrine as a game, I am having conversations with people here that are respectful and genuine for those that still choose to engage me and others in a childlike manner, they get the same, so sue me for being human.

I suppose if it was all the same Jesus was have said so, carry on Dodge, stay at the gym and don't bother to come back here again it would involve lowering yourself and you have risen above all this. So please stay away. I would hate to be responsible for corrupting you further.



"Hey Quench -- I don’t feel like playing this game. Why don’t we just rise above it and have a discussion, a mutually respectful exchange of ideas and put aside all this petty attack rhetoric? First, I’ll explain my position in relationship to Arnold Murray and the Shepherds Chapel. Although I’ve been an active critic in the past, I’ve mellowed over the past few months after reading all these threads, doing research online, reading the discussion forums at Fig Tree Café and the Elect Forum, and doing research into the beliefs and ideas of these ShepChaps. It is my considered opinion that they are merely a sect of Christianity with a different interpretation of the Bible than others, and have the right to their beliefs. I don’t see any evidence of anti-Semitism or racist behavior, only accusations that have never been proven. Kenites, Serpent Seed, Prior Earth Age, and Satan having sex with Eve in the Garden of Eden…it’s all the same to me and seems no different than other Christian mythologies such as angels, devils, holy ghosts, virgin births, giants, arks filled with animals, people turning into pillars of salt, seas parting at the wave of a stick, burning bushes that talk, and angry gods that destroy people if they dare worship other gods. All I see here is “my myth is better and more true than your myth.” You might as well argue with each other who is more powerful, Superman or the Silver Surfer.

I have to head out to the health club now; so I'll leave you children to play in your little sandbox. Sorry to interrupt, you can now continue to toss crap at each other, call each other names, and be all the Christian that you can be. Have fun."

[smyrna]

This guy wants a respectful conversation after he comes blazing in here with the same slop that we have heard over and over, and he accuses us as if that garbage are true facts.

Hey, if you don't like what we believe turn the channel. Go write a letter to the Anti-defamation league. Campaign with liberals to ban guns.

"Despite the gamelike way I engaged Smyrna and introduced myself, I don't see people caught up in a false doctrine as a game, I am having conversations with people here that are respectful and genuine for those that still choose to engage me and others in a childlike manner, they get the same, so sue me for being human.'

Contradict yourself some more, goofball.

[quench]

Ding Ding Ding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SMYRNA=DODGE!

Smyrna shows up the same day on the same thread as Dodge, infact she set the whole the thing up!

Problem, Reaction, Solution!

She created the Problem (Quench is Dodge) She reacted by posting that ridiculous post as Dodge, then she created the solution... follow this line of wild goose chase and you will find the truth.

This mishap with the usernames has allowed Smyrna to hijack all the old names of her enemies.

If you stopped collecting welfare and got a job you wouldn't have to sit around on the net scheming like this!

"Though I think it is an amazing "coincidence" that Dodge showed up on this thread the same day as "Quench" I also suspect trsnheaven/Ultimate1/foak of being this Quench character.

Could be, it's fun to try and figure it all out.

The reason why I think it could possibly be Ultimate1, is that U1 used the same or similar
sophomoric style language.

In any case, I'm not going to go through all this stuff again. If he is so lazy he can't do his own homework, and look up and down the thread titles which cover his issues, then I'm not going to do his homework for him.

The guy really needs to find a purpose for himself."

[quench]

Smyrna sorry poo bear, but you oughtta feel a lil special that I set my eyes on you as a target. Anytime you want to kiss and make up, we can! You do have a lot of good qualities and if we ever get to the point where we can listen to each other maybe we can learn alot from each other!

By the way there is nothing wrong with owning guns that was not even an issue that I brought up. I want to know why he felt the need to use a gun, when all the man did was disagree.

[oneway]

"I am having
conversations with people here that are respectful and genuine for those that still choose to engage me and others in a childlike manner,
they get the same, so sue me for being human"


quench, are you sure you're not me? You remind me of me so much that it's uncanny. I'm starting to wonder if you're me myself. lol, now I am confused.

[quench]

seperated twins lol, let's give 'em another angle to waiste thier time on, I only wish they spend half as much time learning the truth about SCAM.

[smyrna]

One of the reasons I refuse to engage you Quench, is because you don't have a clue to what you are talking about.

That moron who invaded the studio was not merely "disagreeing" with Murray.

During the middle of the broadcast, in that small studio where all guests are told to be as quiet as possible during the program, that idiot got up and started yelling "Blasphemy!" and when the people there tried to get him to leave, he started to scuffle with them, which you can hear on the tape if you listen closely.

So don't give me that he was just disagreeing crap. Had he pulled that stunt at FOX News or anywhere else, armed guards would have dragged him out of there.

Furthermore, you said you picked me out because you've been here before, and I p'd you off. I say good, and you can spout off all you want.

I didn't land here yesterday, and I've tangled with people that make you look like the mental midget you are, which isn't a difficult feat by any means.

(Message edited by smyrna on January 08, 2008)

[lutheratx]

Quench I wont even address your mockery.

"I don't know what to tell you, because you may never get a smoking gun telling you that AM is a false prophet, all you may ever get is an instinct or suspicians." Quench

There you go, I am to trust some man's instincts or suspicions. He may not be able to deliver on the bible telling me my doctrine is not of the bible, so no thanks.

On to another subject... Latin was not spoken by Judah or Israel in the days of the bible. Your word rapture comes from some word that came much later. There is no word for rapture in the bible. This has just recently been taught.

"WHEN DID MURRAY LEARN ARABIC,GREEK,HEBREW, and LATIN" Quench

Your suspicion that he is lying is not good enough for me. You see with Murray I believe him when he says I have read the manuscripts, he refers to them quite often, at the least once a week, I am sure it is more than that. He is familiar with the manuscripts.

"ex)Which would you choose? You preach to a pedaphile and he does not accept you and you leave his door never to return and he continues to rape and kill 100's of kids or you preach every day for 100 days DESPITE not being accepted and the 101st day he repents and you have just saved hundreds of children's lives." Quench

"Now you know why I didn't want to put my pearls before swine! to you quoting verses is a CONTEST and the winner QUOTES THE MOST VERSES." Quench

Are you contradicting yourself. Hey news flash buddy your pearls of wisdom with the lack of biblical documentation does nothing for someone who is deceived by someone who twist scriptures. You have to use documentation to show there beliefs are wrong. You cant just use examples of everyday life and go you see how man's wisdom says this or that, because that is what you are doing. You think I should just accept you as being wise, you are the one who is arrogant. I know I have to use God's word.


"It would only be likened to a Pharisee if you think AM is likened to Jesus christ." Quench

How is me likening you to a Pharisee saying Murray is like Jesus in every way. You see the Pharisees accused more than just Jesus. The council had Peter and his bunch beaten in Acts 5, you should see how many things were done to Paul at the hands of these Pharisees.

"I could post the whole Bible and it wouldn't matter because 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." Quench

This is casting judgement, you have just said it would not matter if you did show me with the bible that my doctrine is wrong, because I am going to perish.

"You referred to Romans which would mean that IT IS NOT NECASSARY to OWN or READ a Bible to be a saved Christian." Quench

I think I know where you are getting this, the gentiles already lived a Christian life style. However Paul was the apostle of the gentiles, meaning he taught them God's word. What ever man is telling you that you don't need to read the bible is the false prophet. The parable of the fig tree, Jesus said learn the parable of the fig tree. That was Jesus instructing them to study something. So what you have just said contradicts what God in the flesh has said.

[oneway]

"During the middle of the broadcast, in that small studio where all guests are told to be as quiet as possible during the program, that idiot got
up and started yelling "Blasphemy!" and when the people there tried to get him to leave, he started to scuffle with them, which you can hear
on the tape if you listen closely."



smyrna, put yourself in the other guys shoes for a moment. Even tho I'm sure you would never do this, but just suppose you were this guy at another church, and disagreed with the teachings so much, that you could no longer hold your peace, so you start screaming out" blasphemy!". What do you think is going to happen next? Don't you think someone is going to try and forcefully remove you at that point? Are you honestly going to tell me there wouldn't be a bit of a skuffle on your part?
And now the pastor arrogantly proclaims, "let me get the 9mm after that boy!". Do you think you deserved all of that for merely disagreeing with the teachings?

One thing I learned about people with guns along time ago, no one ever threatens someone with a loaded gun if they're not planning on using it if it comes down to it.

[lutheratx]

cont.

Quench you have not even said what doctrine we teach that is false. You cannot expect to blanket the entire doctrine, because we teach that Jesus is the son of God. You would not say that is false. So what you would have to do to be one of the stronger posters, someone that could actually bring us to the light, would be to show how the doctrine does not pan out with the word of God. Don't show me scriptures that say there will be false prophets, I know that there are false prophets, that does nothing for me.

"What are you talking about? I am the one correcting you, anyway, I am not religious, you are the follower of a Church called Shepard's Chapel, NOT ME!" Quench

No your not, God's word does the correcting. You have showed me verses that say there are false prophets, I could assume that is you, like wise you have assumed that is Murray. You have to correct my actual factual beliefs with scripture.

"I hope you can see how utterly useless it is to be so CARELESS with God's word!"

Is this why you steer clear of it, look just because you don't understand my reference doesn't mean it isn't on topic. God is telling the elders in Ezekiel 13 what they are guilty of. One of them being, they say God has said, when God in fact has said nothing to them. So this would absolutely pertain to Christians on this forum. They don't correct me with God's word, they use there words and political correctness of the world and pass it off like it is what God has spoken. So the scripture I used absolutely does pertain to what is going on here.

"Your really a bit arrogant and a lot naive to think that only a Christian knows the Bible, that is the point I was trying to make." Quench

Being bold because you have familiarized yourself with God's word is sometimes taken as arrogance. Now you are right, more than just Christians know the bible, however with satan's example we see that they twist the word. So if it is not the truth it will not hold up in the rest of God's word. That is why I try to familiarize myself with the word of God. It is what destroys false traditions.

"Don't be so arrogant as to think you can go up against one with your scam teachings and win a debate." Quench

I do in fact debate these types. I have seen many right here, you should see all the "I have studied for this many years" people come in here. You are new and you don't know what you are talking about. This is a public forum where I have seen all types, I have been humbled here, but I am good at what I do, by the grace of God. You could not possibly read close to a thousand posts. I have seen something somewhere else I do not know how to answer, from an atheist this much is true, but by the grace of God it does not come to me. I don't believe it will. Even if it did come up they would slip on something I do know and I would at least be redeemed. I have no fear of these people.
God is my comfort it is not my knowledge that gives me the victory, it is his guidance. I find stuff in the bible very easily when I am doing this. I don't accredit that to my brains, that much would be laughable.

"it is about Undertsanding what you believe and why you believe it by discussing what you believe with other people and understanding what they believe and why they believe it." Quench

I don't need people's OK. You see Christ said I would be hated for his doctrine by the world in the end times,

Matthew 24:9 <font color="ff0000">Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.</font>

This means that it will not be considered Politically correct. So I don't care if men approve of my beliefs.

[smyrna]

Oneway,

You make no sense whatsoever,

"smyrna, put yourself in the other guys shoes for a moment. Even tho I'm sure you would never do this, but just suppose you were this guy at another church, and disagreed with the teachings so much, that you could no longer hold your peace, so you start screaming out" blasphemy!".

No, if that happens you get up and leave, not become some ranting lunatic. Like I said, if he had pulled that crap at any other studio, like FOX or CNN, he'd be taken out by armed security guards, and if he would resist, they would drag his a$$ out of there.

If you don't think so, Oneway, go to some TV studio where they let people watch a live broadcast, and start heckling the people on the set, and see what happens.

Yeah, the guy deserved to be removed, he deserved to be threatened, whther there was soemone saying "here, take this gun" or was removed by people wearing guns on their hips, the message is the same:

Don't cause any trouble, and if you do, prepare to get your butt thrown out.

An quit talking like the guy was shot at, you sound like an idiot.

[stage_director]

QUOTE
until I get accused of being Stage_directer ect,. ect,. ect,.
END QUOTE

Oh, that's a given. Just wait. If the suspense starts to kill you just call one of them "dude" or even better yet ... "sport" ;-)

[lutheratx]

One way scuffles can get ugly. Murray is a man that has more than likely killed men for this country so you can sit on the internet and bad mouth him. I personally was very hard headed and know that scuffles can get ugly. So yes in a time like that, it is who can get to the tide turner first. I had to learn that the hard way when I was virtually getting my fingers sowed back on, or when I was getting clubbed with a stick, or when I was having a bottle smashed over my head. Have you never had a physical altercation with anybody?

You know the police are trained that if a man gets a pretty fair distance, not close at all, with a knife that they are instructed to shoot for the biggest part of the body. If a man pulls a knife on a police man at a pretty far distances he has the right to kill the man. Murray has had similar training, I am sure, as a Marine, and if he is in close proximity the danger level is heightened. You may say well you are supposed to turn the other cheek, aw but you are also supposed to protect your family. It was not just Murray that was in that studio.

[dobman53]

Dear Friends: What goes:: Clip. Clop. Clip. Clop. POWW!! Clip. Clop. Clip. Clop. give up!!

Quench! as a drive by shooting Mindinight! get it!

[lutheratx]

"2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

that is why he says this.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

He is warning of false Christs, and the chief desolator. Murray teaches the Antichrist comes as Christ, he warns of the Antichrist."

"Oneway, don't you think he could have been speaking about then and now? I mean, all scripture is for our benefit, too" Stage Director

"But I do agree 100% with what you stated: "don't you think he could have been speaking about then and now?" Oneway

However he does not agree that this pertains to the Antichrist.

When I said this originally, I said Murray warns about Antichrist, well he should have known on warning about Antichrist you also warn of his ministers.

Oneway believes, or believed, that Antichrist is a flesh man. He already has the truth twisted, I believe. So he of course he does not agree satan calls himself Christ on his return, even though all scripture points to him doing it when the bible says many Antichrists will come, I believe. To me he has not connected the fact that Satan does the same thing as the many Antichrist. When Revelations clearly says

13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

More scripture pointing to the role satan plays. 2nd Thess

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Shewing himself that he is God with the "g" capitalised, this means our God. Jesus was God, that is why his name was God with us. If you are expecting Jesus, well you know men have said they are him, why do you not think that satan won't say he is him Oneway? So that is why he is included as an Antichrist, a Jesus Paul has not preached, in my understanding.

We should all know that Antichrist deceives the world.

So if Murray has said this pertains to Satan, in which Paul included him in this chpt to show that he has turned himself into the good guy, an Antichrist, another Jesus, a rapturing Jesus, I think Murray is right. However I said this pertained to the Antichrist I didn't say Murray said it, it became a slam on Murray right away with this peace of work.

If you don't agree fine, but I just wanted to put up the reason why I can't see how Murray would be a false prophet. He warns of Satan's coming, and those that deceive people not to look for it.

[dobman53]

DR. Dodge: I admire your devotions to all us Scer's. It kinda makes me feal all kinds a warm, and fuzzy feelings inside.

Dear Doctor, I must say you are so eloquent while speaking with dear Quench. You both are masters of reality.

Your exahaustive searches through out the entire inter-net have proven so fruitfull. I myself shant only dream of such nobility.

Lord bless the good Doctor, unto them both the good Doctor, and Quench!

Dob.

[dodge]

It seems to me that it was unnecessary for Murray to threaten the heckler with the use of a handgun. He should have had a security staff there at the taping prepared to handle such situations effectively with a minimum of disruption. I’m sure that if a heckler appeared in the Fox or CNN newsroom Bill O’Reilly or Wolf Blitzer wouldn’t reach for their guns. It does seem very strange to me that Murray would have a briefcase nearby, while reading the Bible, with a loaded weapon in it. Sure, he was a Marine fifty years ago; but does this mean he needs to have a deadly weapon on hand at all times? I was in the U.S. Army in the sixties and seventies; and I haven’t held or fired a weapon since. For a Christian pastor to feel a need to have a loaded weapon near him while reading the Bible and teaching scripture seems to me to be somewhat insane. Is it just me?

[oneway]

"Oneway,

You make no sense whatsoever,"


smyrna, let me put this in a way even you can understand. And I would like to use franklin as my example(I hope franklin doesn't mind).

Now suppose franklin was the pastor of a church. Suppose you decided to attend one of his teachings. And to make it more interesting, you brought some of your sc buddies with you.

Now suppose franklin started teaching about stomping snake eggs or something. Are you going to be able to contain yourself at that point? Don't you believe that you and your buddies might become a little disruptive at that point? Then a scuffle breaks out when they try to forceably remove you all, and you all don't really want to leave, because this is way too much live entertainment for you.

So pastor franklin, being very serious, threatens to get the 9mm in his briefcase after you. How is this any different than what took place with AM and this heckler? How does either justify the threatening to remove, with the use of deadly force?

The point is, you were no more respectable of pastor franklin's services, than this heckler was of pastor murray's. Yet you think PM was justified
in his choice to threaten a heckler with deadly force.

[stage_director]

QUOTE
Murray is a man that has more than likely killed men for this country so you can sit on the internet and bad mouth him.

Sure, he was a Marine fifty years ago
END QUOTE

Nope, 'fraid not ... His brother Harold, who is two years older, was in WWII ... but the Marines don't have any record of Murray, and his name is not on any of the complete lists of troops who were involved at the Chosin Reservoir.

Come on, prove me wrong ... the troop lists are available on many military and Marine sites. Go on, find him. Or better yet, contact the Marines yourself and come up with an Arnold B Murray or an Arnold Murray with any similar birthday ... or even from Texas, Colorado, California or Arkansas.

[epsilonthelus]

geeze SD, you're fast.
you typed that message submitted it at 2:57 then logged off and onto another username, went to the Saul/Paul thread typed a whole other message and submitted that at 2:58.

All that on this terribly slow website in 1 minute!!

Good job!

[oneway]

"aw but you are also supposed to protect your family. It was not just Murray that was in that studio."


lutheratx, I m glad you brought up that point...other people in the studio. How good of a shot do you think Murray is now? What if Murray had opened fire upon this heckler, don't you think there's a slight chance that he might have missed, and actually shot an innocent bystander?

In your eyes it's no big deal, because Murray never shot anyone that day. But what about next time? Are his sons as dangerous as he is? Do they carry loaded weapons too, when they teach?

[dobman53]

Oneway: As one of your admired US. senators once said while he leaned forward and cupped his ear HELLO HELLO!!

My dear friend oneway, I'm saddened your having such a hard time about those enlightned spiritual feelings. Dear God!! Old Chap!! are those Rose colored glasses your wearing!

Hows that again there old friend. I see; I see!! you do need them, As for they do help you to see your blessed purpose. Marvelous simply Marvelous.

oneway, Do let your dear friend Dob, have a Peek! See!! won't you please! I've never before seen life through thoughs rose colored glasses.

Oh! dear God!! For I now see, as thigh see, through these blessed colored glasses!

Oh!! Wait a minute, I'm beginning to see even better!! With all this BS gas you really do need these glasses.

Oneway I'm blessed to have seen! You've demonstated to me well. Now if I've got this straight it all depends on which way the top is spinning before you sit down on top of it. Right!!

But my only question dear oneway is, what happens to those Moselums who insist upon twirling!

Dear friend I shall now remove thoughs rose colored glasses. They quite rightly keep one from having any idea of reality. If I do say so myself.

Dob!

[dodge]

Hey Stage Director -- How do you know that the U.S. Marine Corps has no record of Arnold Benjamin Murray being in Korea or taking part in the Battle of Chosin Reservoir? What are your sources?

[lutheratx]

You are just looking for a reason to say bad things about a man. I mean come on, what ifs now. It is no big deal to me because you have the right to defend yourself. I'm for your right to bear arms. With this comment you are giving the arguement for gun control.

[lutheratx]

Stage you are full of do do.

[watchman_2]

dodge,
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He should have had a security staff there at the taping prepared to handle such situations effectively with a minimum of disruption. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Now you know that if PM paid for a security staff the likes of stage_director would claim he is stealing money from the Chapel for his own benefit.

The fact is that he does have a security staff -- it is his 9mm in his brief case. I am glad he threatened to use it -- helps keep the intruders away.

[dobman53]

Dear; epsilonthelus: From my short gatherings I see you with more clarity with each passing post.

Not that I'm nosey or anything. But where did you get that electronic echoing mirror. I've never seen anything like it. And whats that little knob there my new friend. Oh its a reverb knob for the echoing effect. Bravo!!

Well I must be off now dear friend, so let me bid you Farewell!!

DOB!

[dobman53]

Dodge: everbody knows all SD's sources are carved on the back door side of stall No. 6

you all ways run to stall No.1, and hold your feet up.

just ware some womens shoe's and sneak down to stall No.6, it will be worth it!

DOB!

[oneway]

"The fact is that he does have a security staff -- it is his 9mm in his brief case. I am glad he threatened to use it -- helps keep the intruders
away."



Yes watchman_2, it sure does. And it also helps to instill fear in ones, such as yourself, to not dare question AM's teachings.
If Am says it, then you better not argue with it. Who says so? AM's 9mm says so.

[dodge]

Hey Dobman -- I see you've evolved into a sarcastic, sneering, caustic, bitter, mocking, verbally offensive, unkind insulting troll here on these threads. There may be a Christian in there somewhere, but I certainly don't see it. If you believe that one should treat others the way one would want to be treated, then all I can say is reap what you sow.

[dobman53]

Dodge don't be packing no gun down there at stall No. 6. Don't you up and decide on something foolish and End It!! ya here!

You know theirs a bunch a people need your help around hear. Gotta whole lotta sick people decenting round here Dr. many a gonna need your help I'm afraid.

Could I help ya! unload your couch there for ya! good Dr. Dodge. I'm a meaning to just help ya, Tarnation! I wants ta help ya as much as I can. beings you's the new doctor in all.

DOB!

[dobman53]

Dodge: you do have a presence of yourself. Saddly I don't share your regard of one self. I see your presentations as, misguided thought. completely lacking in Biblical truths. So you see my dear friend at best I can only hope that you stay, and before I should make any attempts to intertain you I'll shall pause and reflect on this moment.

Dob

[stage_director]

QUOTE
Hey Stage Director -- How do you know that the U.S. Marine Corps has no record of Arnold Benjamin Murray being in Korea or taking part in the Battle of Chosin Reservoir? What are your sources?
END QUOTE

I, and several other other people including some who were sure he was there, have written or contacted the Marines and requested/gone through all the lists, as well as joining or contacting many veterans groups. There is no record of Murray being in Korea in any branch of the armed forces. There are WWII records for Harold.