Pastor Murray Gun Audio [Archive] - Page 2

smyrna

01-08-2008, 11:03 PM

Sorry SD, that stuff about contacting the Marines is a damn lie.

You have to be a veteran or next-of-kin to access those records:

How to Request Military Service Records or Prove Military Service

Access to Military Records by the General Public, including genealogists who are not next-of-kin

Limited information from Official Military Personnel Files is releasable to the general public without the consent of the veteran or the next-of-kin. You are considered a member of the general public if you are asking about a veteran who is no relation to you, or a veteran who is a relative but you are not the next-of-kin. Next-of-kin is defined as the unremarried widow or widower, son or daughter, father or mother, brother or sister of the deceased veteran.

The type of information releasable is intended to strike a balance between the public's right to obtain information from Federal records, as outlined in the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), and the veteran's right to privacy as defined by the Privacy Act. Information will not be released if requested for unethical purposes.

The type of information releasable to the general public ***is dependent upon the veteran's authorization.***

With the veteran's authorization.

The veteran (or next-of-kin if the veteran is deceased) must authorize release of information which is not available to the public under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). (In some cases the veteran may already possess military documents that contain the information you are seeking.) The authorization must 1) be in writing; 2) specify what additional information or copies that NPRC (MPR) may release to you; and 3) include the signature of the veteran or next-of-kin. (A sample authorization is included for your review.)

It is also a nice to know that Stage Director is so obsessed with Murray that she would try and access his military records, or at least claim she tried.

What a sick freak job!

dobman53

01-08-2008, 11:09 PM

Dear DR. You as well as your kind in general, speak every word out of your mouths sideways in order to offend your selected targets. Then of all things act suprised at our exspence.

Dear Dr. Dodge; Should you or any come to give a wonderfull speach. and even should one decide to speak from a lofty soap box so be it. That is of course that it's exceptable to all you do seek.

For if it is not exceptable to all you do seek. Maybe it's best you take the most appropiate position whilts though stand flat on thy feat.

Your Take on self preservation is priceless. If I'm getting the proper sence of you. I'd be willing to bet you would hand over to Iran lets say 100 slealth missles all targetted and armed. If for no other reason than only to show them we mean them no harm!

How is that people can slip to such a state. Where is your marine corp. instucting drill sargent Dr. dodge. Have you any idea. He should be shot for passing such whimps.

DOB!

dodge

01-08-2008, 11:17 PM

Stage Director -- I see. Well, if that’s the case, then it looks like Arnold Murray is a liar and a fraud. Can any supporters of Murray offer any proof that he was in the Marine Corps and a veteran of the Battle of Chosin Reservoir? Is there any way that I can see proof of your claims, Stage? I know that military records are private, and only next-of-kin or the veteran himself can request detailed information concerning specific tours of duty and awards. I was in the U.S. Army myself, between 1966 and 1970, and I know that my military records cannot be opened for just anyone who requests them. Your statement that you and others have “contacted the Marine Corps and requested and gone through lists” is hearsay, and would not stand up in any court. Not that I think you would lie; but if we are to determine the truth in all this I need proof. Until then, I remain neutral.

stage_director

01-08-2008, 11:18 PM

Oh, really? Gee, I wonder why they gave up Harold's information? But then, I guess you'd have to know what you're doing.

dodge

01-08-2008, 11:34 PM

Dobman, you insult me. I served my country in the U.S. Army between 1966 and 1970, and have an honorable discharge along with a 100% service-connected disability compensation from the Veterans Administration. Yet you dare to insinuate that I would act in a traitorous manner towards my country, having risked my life in order to defend it. You are lucky that you are not in front of me right now.

watchman_2

01-08-2008, 11:57 PM

oneway,

I have no problem with keeping one's house in order. People are free to believe as they will. However, to intrude during PM's broadcast was totally classless and abuse of SC's private property.

If the intruder disagrees, let him broadcast his own Bible study in which he documents his beliefs.

If someone breaks into my home without permission, I will shoot first -- ask questions later. I would do it without warning. At least, the good Pastor gave the intruder warning. He didn't even have to brandish his weapon.

smyrna

01-09-2008, 12:41 AM

I never saw Harold's record anywhere, and you certainly can't trust SD for any truth, but all I do know is what I stated the last time this crap came up:

The defunct scripture_truth site, by Margie Plummer, first claimed he didn't have any record with Chosin Few. Then some guy wrote in with info that made her take that claim down and put some link to that Chosin Few memorial site, and that was that.

So he produced sotmhing that caused her to take down that accusation.

In any case, I don't see any reason Murray would lie about his military service. But I do see plenty of lies and reasons why detractors keep lying about Murray and the SC.

Who would one believe? A man who has dedicated his life to teaching the Bible no matter what people believe about his teaching or the style he chooses to teach it, or some InterNUTS that have already been caught numerous times lying and using other dishonest tactics?

I could care less what other choose, but I'll choose the former.

stage_director

01-09-2008, 12:58 AM

Actually, what happened was that in the midst of his heavily armed security guards, Murray pulled his gun from his briefcase when the man yelled, "Blasphemer!" and called to his guards who began scuffling with him, "Here, take this 9mm to that boy!"

Now, let me see ... you're protected by heavily armed security guards while the object of your irritation is unarmed, and you tell your guards who have have jumped the guy to hand him a gun. Hummmmmm

stage_director

01-09-2008, 01:02 AM

Btw ... Murray made a slash across him throat indicating for them to stop taping. But they hadn't. This was before he pulled out the gun.

dobman53

01-09-2008, 01:34 AM

Hey! dodge: Like I said how fare can one slide. When I here you speak of your views on proper self preservation, I'm totally shocked. Then you come at me with your acomplishments. But if I lay that all out on the table. It looks like 1 minus 2 is less than zero?

What I'm trying to say is I do admire all who've searved, and this Includes you as much as any. Though with your outreached hands you have one issue in one hand while supporting another with the other.

This is a comond ploy acted out by so many of our liberal minded states men. They spray you with full automatic, while hid behind the bassinette. A cheap trick they all seem to adore.

It's as if to say, you went and did battle just as long as a preacher does not defend himself. To me that kind of lodgic is quite a slide.

Dob!

dobman53

01-09-2008, 01:50 AM

SD: your angle is flawed as usuall. Would it really matter to you if you watched Billy Gram do any such thing. Just as long as it's AM be what ever that might be it's all the justification you require.

So if he has a manorism that you see as unholy. Or should he so much as part his hair a 1/4 inch off I can only Imagine what then!

It is an odd quirk we find in this little filly. Just the same I wish she were at least tame none the same.

DOB!

stage_director

01-09-2008, 02:16 AM

Billy Graham would be just as out of order.

smyrna

01-09-2008, 03:09 AM

Stage Director can be on the wrong side of this issue as long as she likes. I love it.

If you read this thread throughly, you will see she has a minority opinion of the issue, especially when she started to call ministers who take steps to protect themselves and their congregations frauds, impostors, and cowards.

She is a fool.

dobman53

01-09-2008, 03:28 AM

Stage Director:

Would you go to Graham's web site. NO!

Would you go to Benny Hinns. NO!

you would go to none of these. RIGHT!

you fear none of their doctrine, for you are far beyond their teachings. RIGHT!

But as Pastor Murray teaches book to book each chapter and verse. Backing up each verse with another verse so all can see it's place. The truth seems forever to allude you. It seems that for some unknown reason in your mind if you didn't think of it first it can't be true.

In any horse race SD you would never admit defeat. With the photo's from the finish for all to see. forever you would say foul, then slam the door unto yourself alone.

Oh! how I know what your responce will soon be.

Of how he twists, you claim!

Oh! of how he's not holy!

WE all know the jists.

I have to imagine the truths seem to have scared you, but where shall you hide.

wether you like it or not, you do know the truth. Even though you don't know it as truth, it will protect you just the same, and you will SD know when to use it

DOB!

angie0401

01-09-2008, 04:42 AM

sd said:

Actually, what happened was that in the midst of his heavily armed security guards, Murray pulled his gun from his briefcase when the man yelled, "Blasphemer!" and called to his guards who began scuffling with him, "Here, take this 9mm to that boy!"

Now, let me see ... you're protected by heavily armed security guards while the object of your irritation is unarmed, and you tell your guards who have have jumped the guy to hand him a gun. Hummmmmm

Well, actually the tape never does show a gun, even though they continued to tape after he signaled to stop the broadcast.
There also isn't ANY video of the security guards or the intruder, so your jumping to some big conclusions about who was and wasn't armed.

as for this:

you tell your guards who have have jumped the guy to hand him a gun

Hand who a gun?

Pastor Murray?
I thought he pulled one from his briefcase, so it couldn't be him.

The intruder?
So you think PM wanted them to give this crazy person a gun???? You aren't serious, right??

dobman53

01-09-2008, 05:03 AM

Angie: SD did needs to go to Google, she'll be right back.

Angie I heard she got her bag of nasty tricks ripped from her side at the last drunken trip she took to Missouri.

Now all the poor girl can do is Google!

DOB!

angie0401

01-09-2008, 05:50 AM

dob said:
SD did needs to go to Google, she'll be right back

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

dodge

01-09-2008, 06:02 AM

Dobman needs a remedial course in English grammar and spelling.

stage_director

01-09-2008, 06:03 AM

Oh, I get it. You're saying Murray was LYING about having a gun. Full of hot air, huh? I see ... Or wait! Maybe he was telling little old ladies in his audience to give him cookies? And maybe you're believe his guards are so inept they didn't even rise to the occasion? Gee, I don't know ... but I think the video leaves little to the imagination.

Wonder whatever happened to that guy? They finally stopped taping, and it doesn't reveal how it all ended.

smyrna

01-09-2008, 06:43 AM

Angie,

Whether Stage Director is delta_belle or not isn't necessary to establish to prove Stage Director knows of a different account of the gun thing that she claims here. She also was on the same page this post came from, so she can make up all the stuff she wants about the gun thing.

But if you look on page 24 of the Shepherd's Chapel, Right Or Wrong thread at CB, you will see that it is clear that Dennis Murray and two other guys grabbed the guy and took him outside, and then Pastor Murray met with him after things clamed down. They were not "armed guards".

This of course, was according to Stage, oops, Delta_belle59 who claims she heard it from a friend who was there. But do you hear any of the detractors mention that Murray met with the guy?

No, that would have made him look like Pope JPII meeting with the guy who shot him.

In any case, Delta's posts there sound so much like Stage Director, it is unreal she tried to pull that off, but she apparently wasn't thinking about anyone suspecting her. The same with "blessedlyfe_68"

That thread is great to read, especially the first 27 pages, because you get the phony ids.

Delta and "blessedlyfe_68" both dropped off the SC thread there in August, within days of each other, and never came back.

What amazing coincidences, huh? Two people who claim such intimate knowledge of the Chapel, stuff that only Stage Director has ever mentioned, that just happened to find that little site in cyberspace where Stage Director was, and who disappeared within days of each other, never to return.

There were others, like "wontoofree" which is clearly Franklin, and "Rhonda Starr" clearly Rachel, and to their credit the admins won't allow multiple handles any longer, except on the theme threads, i.e outer space stuff.

(Message edited by smyrna on January 09, 2008)

angie0401

01-09-2008, 06:48 AM

I'm not saying he's lying. I have no idea if he did or didn't have a gun - just like YOU have no idea if the guards were "heavily armed" and the intruder was "unarmed". Maybe we're watching a different video because the one I saw didn't EVER show the "heavily armed security guards" or the poor, helpless, misunderstood "unarmed intruder". Care to provide a link to the video that "leaves little to the imagination"?

stage_director

01-09-2008, 08:20 AM

Angie, he's always got his bodyguards close by. I don't know if you've ever been to a PO, or even a taping, but they're always there. That's a fact.

And, btw ... I pointed out that the man, who was not an intruder at that time, was unarmed. Gee, I don't recall saying he was poor or helpless or misunderstood.

While some pastors may have tried to handle it differently, I wouldn't fault Murray for simply telling security to escort him out, or even calling the police if he wouldn't leave or became disruptive. He was in the middle of a taping. But then, what do you expect from a preacher who talks up Peter slicing the ear off of the high priest's servant as if it were a great deed even though our Lord chastised him for his violence?

lutheratx

01-09-2008, 09:09 AM

"Oh, really? Gee, I wonder why they gave up Harold's information? But then, I guess you'd have to know what you're doing." Stage

Well you see I think you can chose not to have information concerning your service open to the public.

Also I have been in the military, and the military is full of something we call clearances. Now if for some reason Murray got a Top Secret (which I doubt) or Secret (which is highly probable if you put on any type of rank) there maybe classified documents that where never taken out of his record. If a family member or the person himself is not requesting to make it public knowledge, then it may never be moved around seeing how the federal government is really busy when it comes to paper work. Why would the Military give out secret clearances, do you know for as something as simple as troop movement you have to have a secret clearance before you can know where the platoon will be next. Now the Military is sometimes a little more reluctant to give out the information on there member who have clearances. They don't look at every member and determine if they want to release the info they are already very busy. If it was for a reason that the government wants to keep secret, they are really going to be reluctant on touching those files.

Both of these are valid reasons why you might not be able to get info on Arnold Murray. See once again you are using speculation to find something negative. When I use speculation why the info is not there.

lutheratx

01-09-2008, 10:12 AM

Could it be

Peter struck in anger?

Peter had already been told what was going to happen by Jesus.

So could it be that Jesus was not against one protecting himself, and his own, but was against attacks in anger. Which God's law does not condone, however God says in his law if men fight one another and I deliver one man in the hands of the other, I will appoint a place for that man to flee. So could it be that Peter had broken God's law? Now Stage is more comfortable with the traditions of men, it is men that have made it so a Christian has no rights when it comes to self defense. Traditions have even removed capital punishment. So we can see what traditions will say about it, and I believe of course for the most part we can see what Stage will say. God's law of course says something else. Jesus did not come to change the law.

So you are saying a man that is licensed to carry a firearm is not allowed to use it for protection. Well if that was the case not only would we have the lovely video put in our face every day, but we would also have to deal with you guys bringing up that Murray went to jail everyday. So we see in the word of God weapons were used many times to protect the liberties and the lives of the Hebrews.

Here is scripture saying a person must provide for there own.

1Tim5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

This means protection also. So Murray in all actuality was in his rights in American law, and with in the biblical law. His own, his own students, his own establishment, his own etc. etc.

So Stage has an opinion in the matter, and of course it is negative towards Murray. However it is plain to me that her opinion actually goes against the word of God.

smyrna

01-09-2008, 02:46 PM

Luther,

That is one great post.

Like I said before, Stage Director's views on this gun issue and about ministers not having the right to protect themselves or their congregations is so absurd, it had people who rarely post but just read coming out in opposition to her silly thoughts about it.

That is more than enough for me to conclude she is really off her rocker on this one.

That she is trying to drag on the discussion is just another example of her refusing to admit she was wrong. She will never change our minds, nor those who also claimed she is wrong before.

saygoodnightgracie

01-09-2008, 03:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCetfaS7GAo

smyrna

01-09-2008, 03:47 PM

Very clever, I think I got the message.

angie0401

01-09-2008, 04:08 PM

sd said:
Angie, he's always got his bodyguards close by. I don't know if you've ever been to a PO, or even a taping, but they're always there. That's a fact.
Yes, I've been to more than one PO and to the studio, though I didn't stay for the taping. I did see someone whom I assumed was some type of security, but I didn't see anyone who was armed. Since the guy was in a short sleeve polo shirt, I don't know where he would have hidden his gun(s). Which was the point. Not whether or not he has security, but if they are "heavily armed".

And, btw ... I pointed out that the man, who was not an intruder at that time, was unarmed. Gee, I don't recall saying he was poor or helpless or misunderstood.
Once he purposely disrupted the taping and was asked to leave, he became an intruder. I know you didn't specifically call him poor or helpless (though that is how you try to characterize him), that is why I didn't include it in quotes like I did the other QUOTES I took from your post. It's really not complicated.

Again, you really need to relax and not sweat the small stuff so much. Have you counted your blessings today? I have.

oneway

01-09-2008, 04:10 PM

"Well you see I think you can chose not to have information concerning your service open to the public."

I tend to agree with you. But the question is why would someone do this? In AM's case it couldn't be a top secret thing, otherwise he wouldn't be telling anyone he was an ex marine to begin with.
Maybe AM has something to hide. A dishonorable discharge, or even a court martial comes to mind.
I guess we'll never know tho, since no one can prove he was in the military at all. We only have his word for it. Even still, I happen to believe he was in the military. I see no reason why he would lie about it.

angie0401

01-09-2008, 04:31 PM

oneway said:
In AM's case it couldn't be a top secret thing, otherwise he wouldn't be telling anyone he was an ex marine to begin with.

I don't follow your logic, oneway. I was also in the military and had a top secret clearance. I'm not allowed to talk about any classified information, but nothing prevents me from telling anyone I am ex-military or even what my job was while I was in. My husband also had a similar security clearance, even though he was civilian, because he worked on sensitive military projects. He is also allowed to tell people what military contractor he worked for, what his job was, etc - just not classified information.

Are you maybe thinking of someone being undercover or some type of spy as opposed to holding a top secret clearance?

--->edit<---
OK, oneway, I had another cup of coffee and read your post again. I understand what you are saying now.
However, I think my points are still valid. Just because you don't want someone to have access to your military records doesn't mean it has anything negative in them or anything to do with one's clearance.

(Message edited by Angie0401 on January 09, 2008)

arron

01-09-2008, 05:05 PM

at the risk of being said that i alwaays say "i heard am say on tv this morning " well i am saying it again. i HEARD am say on tv this morning while answering a question some one sent in and asked were there three heaven .. he said yes there was the first age heaven the present age heaven and then the furtur age heaven.
he is ver wrong the heavens have been since the begining. there is the first heaven where the air we breath and live , the second heaven where is the outside the athopmosphere, and the thord heave WHERE GOD DWELLS . paul was caught up to the third heaven .am is wron again

oneway

01-09-2008, 05:22 PM

"I don't follow your logic, oneway. I was also in the military and had a top secret clearance. I'm not allowed to talk about any classified
information, but nothing prevents me from telling anyone I am ex-military or even what my job was while I was in."

angie, since you mentioned top secret clearance, let's say that I knew your full name, would I be able to access some type of public record that proves you were even in the military at all?
Or would your name be hidden from public records as if you were never even in the military? And to go a step further, could you request that there be no public record of your time spent in the service? If so, why would you do this, esp if you made it known to others that you were actually in the service?

The part I don't get in all of this, if someone served in the military, and that person made it a well known fact, why would that person choose to be unlisted as if he/she were never in the military? Does that person have something to hide that he/she might not even want their family to find out?
It makes one wonder, well at least it makes me wonder.

smyrna

01-09-2008, 05:27 PM

No Arron, you are wrong, by claiming God has limitations on where His presence is.

God dwells everywhere, not just in some third age.

You are also wrong about there being one continuous heaven/earth age.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 65:17

II Pet 3:13:

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Rev 21:1

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

terluvire

01-09-2008, 05:41 PM

Good job Smyrna! I was just getting ready to post those verses. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

smyrna

01-09-2008, 06:28 PM

Yes Ter,

Looks like Arron doesn't know his Bible like he claims he does.

For if he did, those verses would have come to him, and he would not have to be corrected.

angie0401

01-09-2008, 06:40 PM

angie, since you mentioned top secret clearance, let's say that I knew your full name, would I be able to access some type of public record that proves you were even in the military at all?

I don't think so, oneway, but I have never checked. My understanding (but I could be wrong) is that these records by default are not public records, unless one files them in your county courthouse. I filed my DD214 when I was discharged, but I don't believe it is available online.

Besides, I think we have to also consider the fact that all of those records weren't computerized like they are now. I'm just not willing to impeach someone's credibility based on that fact. I know of people who were listed as deceased in government records, but they were still walking and talking, you know?

terluvire

01-09-2008, 06:40 PM

Yes, I wish some that come here to argue with us, would do their homework first, instead of spouting off their mouths.

smyrna

01-09-2008, 07:05 PM

Ter and Angie,

You really have to question the very sanity of people so obsessed with trying to destroy Pastor Murray,that they even look up his BROTHER'S military record!

Stage Director is such a hypocrite, she always complains that I use ad hominem attacks, yet what does anyone's military record have to do with their ability to study and teach God's Word?

Here is Stage Director's logic, brought forth in analogy:

Stage Director: "I'm convinced that my doctor isn't right about the diagnosis he gave me. I better go look to see what his military record is."

Stage Director:

"Damn car! That mechanic obviously didn't know what he was doing. I'm going straight to the Army website and get this guy's military record."

Stage Director:

"That creep! So, he wants a divorce, huh? I'm going to go back to dig up dirt on this guy even if I have to go back forty years, all the way back to his military record! And I'm not stopping there, either. I'll look up his whole family's military records!"

Then I'm going to go on the Internet, and let all these guys have it, you hear me? They can't mess with me! I'll get them all! AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

terluvire

01-09-2008, 07:09 PM

"Obsessed" is the right word Smyrna. What else can you call it? lol

arron

01-09-2008, 07:19 PM

syrma you completly misunderstood what i said i was describing the three heavens and not that GOD is limited to any one place HE is everywhere at the same time and can hear every prayer prayed at the same time and also every smart remark like you just knowinly made at the same time too no GOD has no limitations

lutheratx

01-09-2008, 08:40 PM

"Now if for some reason Murray got a Top Secret (which I doubt) or Secret (which is highly probable if you put on any type of rank) there maybe classified documents that where never taken out of his record." Lutheratx

This is what I said.

Really you should reread the whole post because I even go into how the military sometimes puts secret clearance on the simplest info. and are trying to eliminate a paper file system right now because of how hard it is to get the info you want, because even when I was in, which was recent, PSD (paper pushers) were always bogged down.

I am ex military and my whole life on anything, I have opted to have my personnel info not open to the public. I don't automatically jump to something sinister like oneway did if someone does this. This is beginning to get ridiculous. When you make your info open to the public this means advertisers can get it, your enemies that post things all over the internet can get. What if there are confirmed kills in that material, can you imagine the christians who are wrapped up in tradition? They would always bother us students with the fact, well at least my pastor isn't a killer. Murray gives these people less ammo.

I have shown two valid reasons, which are speculation, to combat the critics speculation. Just showing that there are valid reasons why one might not be able to access military records. Stage was all over here yesterday saying why can I get his brothers info. and not his.

oneway

01-09-2008, 08:55 PM

"I don't automatically jump to
something sinister like oneway did if someone does this."

I have a right to speculate. Nothing sinister about it. Now if I would have claimed that my speculations were 100% fact, then that might have been sinister.

lutheratx

01-09-2008, 09:05 PM

"Maybe AM has something to hide. A dishonorable discharge, or even a court martial comes to mind.'

nothing but sinister reasons. You could say the same about me, I found nothing but positive reasons.

stage_director

01-09-2008, 10:25 PM

Access to Military Records by the General Public, including genealogists who are not next-of-kin

Limited information from Official Military Personnel Files is releasable to the general public without the consent of the veteran or the next-of-kin. You are considered a member of the general public if you are asking about a veteran who is no relation to you, or a veteran who is a relative but you are not the next-of-kin. Next-of-kin is defined as the unremarried widow or widower, son or daughter, father or mother, brother or sister of the deceased veteran.

The type of information releasable is intended to strike a balance between the public's right to obtain information from Federal records, as outlined in the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), and the veteran's right to privacy as defined by the Privacy Act.

Freedom of Information Act and the Privacy Act (FOIA)

The public has access to certain military service information without the veteran's authorization (or that of the next-of-kin of deceased veterans). Examples of information which may be available from Official Military Personnel Files without an unwarranted invasion of privacy include:

Name
Service Number
Dates of Service
Branch of Service
Rank and Date of Rank
Salary *
Assignments and Geographical Locations
Source of Commission *
Military Education
Promotion Sequence Number *
Awards and decorations (Eligibility only, not actual medals)
Duty Status
Photograph
Transcript of Court-Martial Trial
Place of entrance and separation

dobman53

01-10-2008, 12:24 AM

I've got it all figured! (5)

Put on white gloves! (4)

Feel all about! (3)

Any dust! (2)

Crucify! (1)

DOB! (blast off) and so he shall!!

lutheratx

01-10-2008, 08:49 PM

Stage show me your resources first, leave a link to where you are getting your information.

However you showed a reason not base on speculations, I think, so here is a reason that has some speculation based on facts.

Also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Personnel_Records_Center

The Military Personnel Records Center (NPRC-MPR)[1] located at 9700 Page Avenue in Saint Louis, Missouri, USA is a branch of the National Personnel Records Center and is the repository of over 56 million military personnel records, health files, and medical records pertaining to retired, discharged, and deceased veterans of the U.S. armed forces.

"Skip a few paragraphs to get to my point"

In 1973, the entire sixth floor of the Military Personnel Records Center was destroyed along with over sixteen million military service records. Shortly after the fire, a discussion was held within the General Services Administration (which then operated the facility) to close down the Military Personnel Records Center in lieu of a new facility. This did not come to pass, however, and instead a large "Reconstruction Project" was begun to restore the records destroyed in the fire.

The reconstruction effort of the Military Personnel Records Center continues to this day with daily accessions of "Recon Records" which are created to replace a service record destroyed in the 1973 fire. Reconstruction Records are created through use of alternate records sources such as pay records and records from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Wikipedia

Valid reason indeed, the federal government is notorious when it comes to paper work. You want to prove this guy is a false teacher and rely on the federal government, a government of men, to do it. Hey did they have the internet in 1973? You can try to prove what files where destroyed, but the federal government still to this day is trying to figure out which ones were destroyed.

You prove nothing. All you have is speculation on why you cant retrieve Murray's records, and I will show you I can speculate reasons why the records are not available too.

It only shows what you guys will rely on to beseech the man.

smyrna

01-10-2008, 09:00 PM

Good post Luther,

But Stage Director will spin it off. I say let her.

Anyone who is so obsessed with someone they don't agree with that they are willing to look up their military records that are decades old, anyone who is so hypocritical that they say people are using ad hominem attacks but then attacks the characters of SCers that disagree with her, would never even be considered mentally fit to be in the military herself, because she would be too dishonorable serve.

And when you throw in the fact she thinks people who defend themselves and others as faithless cowards, well, she wouldn't exactly fit in the military.

You really have to question the very sanity of people so obsessed with trying to destroy Pastor Murray,that they even look up his BROTHER'S military record!

Stage Director is such a hypocrite, she always complains that I use ad hominem attacks, yet what does anyone's military record have to do with their ability to study and teach God's Word?

Here is Stage Director's logic, brought forth in analogy:

Stage Director: "I'm convinced that my doctor isn't right about the diagnosis he gave me. I better go look to see what his military record is."

Stage Director:

"Damn car! That mechanic obviously didn't know what he was doing. I'm going straight to the Army website and get this guy's military record."

Stage Director:

"That creep! So, he wants a divorce, huh? I'm going to go back to dig up dirt on this guy even if I have to go back forty years, all the way back to his military record! And I'm not stopping there, either. I'll look up his whole family's military records!"

Then I'm going to go on the Internet, and let all these guys have it, you hear me? They can't mess with me! I'll get them all! AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stage_director

01-10-2008, 09:03 PM

Nice try, but you left this out ...

"The reconstruction effort of the Military Personnel Records Center continues to this day with daily accessions of "Recon Records" which are created to replace a service record destroyed in the 1973 fire. Reconstruction Records are created through use of ALTERNATE RECORD SOURCES such as PAY RECORDS and RECORDS FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERAN AFFAIRS."

It was an inconvenience, but no record that a person was enlisted was destroyed from off the face of the earth.

smyrna

01-10-2008, 09:26 PM

Hey Luther,

This nut case is shameless. She still is trying to defend looking up military records of people she doesn't agree with.

Let's think about it this way.

What, out of the two following scenarios, do you think is closer to the truth?

1. Nut jobs like Stage Director have been whining about Murray allegedly lying about his military record. This isn't new, they've been doing it for years.
However, anyone doing this has been a detractor, and ALWAYS has included accusations that have been very easy to dismiss as lies, misrepresentations, and part of a smear campaign therefore damaging their own credibility, all the while they have been trying to damage someone else's.

2. Arnold Murray, a man who has dedicated his life to being a religious teacher,a man married to one woman his whole life, who could have quit teaching years ago and have plenty of money, rather than putting up with nut cases like Stage Director and other really unstable personalities, and has no reason to lie about his military service.

Therefore he isn't vulnerable to those who have no credibility, since they are basically a bunch of Internet rumor mongers who are proven liars.

dobman53

01-10-2008, 10:10 PM

SD: What happens! should your presumed truths prove to be false? Are we to exspect a big apology? Of course not! by the time should anything prove to be, your 5 miles down some other rocky road.

Oh! well we have become accustomed to it!

DOB!

angie0401

01-10-2008, 11:36 PM

sd said:
Nice try, but you left this out ...

No, actually he didn't. I see it in the post (that wasn't edited).

Besides, you are obviously not reading this part:
The reconstruction effort of the Military Personnel Records Center continues to this day 

That means that all the records that were lost have NOT yet been recovered - and I feel sure there is a good chance that some of them may never be recovered.

smyrna

01-10-2008, 11:52 PM

Angie!

How can you say that?!!!!!!!!!!!

Didn't you read the post where Stage said she has never been proven wrong?

Oh yeah, wait, I'm, wrong about that. She said I never proved her wrong. (Which is a lie)

Well, let's see if she'll admit someone else proved her wrong.

stage_director

01-11-2008, 04:38 AM

QUOTE
Besides, you are obviously not reading this part:
The reconstruction effort of the Military Personnel Records Center continues to this day

That means that all the records that were lost have NOT yet been recovered - and I feel sure there is a good chance that some of them may never be recovered
END QUOTE

Reconstructed from where, Angie? From their other service records!!! This building did not house all of a soldier's military records.

smyrna

01-11-2008, 05:35 AM

I work in an environment that obligates us to have Coast Guard certification for various positions in the marine industry. Every five years, and in some cases less, we have to renew our documentation of our licenses.

The number of delays, many due to lost and misplaced records BY THE GOVERNMENT, is not uncommon.

My records thankfully were not lost in the destruction of the REC (Regional Examination Center) of the U.S.C.G by Katrina.
However, many of my co-workers had theirs lost, and had to help the Coast Guard by going to their office and presenting their documents so they can copy them.

In addition to that, I'll stand by my statement in post 125.

Only some Internutcases would scheme to try and get an 80 year old Pastor's military records, or claim they tried, in an effort to discredit him.

When I tell this story to other people they just shake their heads and say stuff like, "with all the world problem's...too much time on their hands..get a life...can you imagine being married to THAT?"

angie0401

01-11-2008, 07:06 AM

Reconstructed from where, Angie? From their other service records!!!

Other sources such as pay records are NOT the same as service records.

Besides, that's not the point. The point is that all of the records have not YET been reconstructed. If this information was digitized and recorded so that it be possible to, I don't know - do an internet search maybe?, then it wouldn't be an ONGOING RECONSTRUCTION effort. It would be as simple as creating a program to search all of these "service records" and automatically reconstruct these records.

(Also, you didn't say that he failed to highlight what YOU thought was an important point, you said that he "left that part out", which was wrong.)

quench

01-11-2008, 07:43 AM

I would have been honored to be accused of being Stage_director, but for some reason the "sports" never made that connection.

"QUOTE
until I get accused of being Stage_directer ect,. ect,. ect,.
END QUOTE

Oh, that's a given. Just wait. If the suspense starts to kill you just call one of them "dude" or even better yet ... "sport" ;-)"

quench

01-11-2008, 08:01 AM

"One of the reasons I refuse to engage you Quench, is because you don't have a clue to what you are talking about. "

All you ever do is engage me, sweetheart.

"That moron who invaded the studio was not merely "disagreeing" with Murray.
During the middle of the broadcast, in that small studio where all guests are told to be as quiet as possible during the program, that idiot got up and started yelling "Blasphemy!"

He is a human being 1st of all, try to put yourself in other peoples shoes so that you can understand them, try to be like Jesus Christ.

What "Blasphemy" did he "yell"?

Okay, he interupted, spoke out of turn, but did he deserve to be threatened with a gun?

When Jesus faced men that had stones in thier hands and tossed them at him, did Jesus pick up stones and stone them back? The man wasn't changing money he was asking a question out of turn. his distruption hardly called for gun violence.

"and when the people there tried to get him to leave, he started to scuffle with them, which you can hear on the tape if you listen closely."

Or is it they that they scuffled with him?
Why should he have been forced to leave? Murray should have handled it better, NO CHURCH should turn away some one just because they disagree with what is being said. Being unruly making a scene well call the cops! Murray did not handle the situation right! Now he has a PR nightmare.

"So don't give me that he was just disagreeing crap. Had he pulled that stunt at FOX News or anywhere else, armed guards would have dragged him out of there. " Stuff like that has gone on at Fox News and all it does is make fox news look like idiots the way it has made Arnold Murray look like an idiot.

"Furthermore, you said you picked me out because you've been here before, and I p'd you off. I say good, and you can spout off all you want."

I never said I had been here b4 and sparred with you that day was my 1st day and that punch was my 1st punch. (smiley)

"I didn't land here yesterday," and your not leaving 2morrow, this is your home.

quench

01-11-2008, 08:49 AM

"There you go, I am to trust some man's instincts or suspicions."

I was talking about trusting YOUR OWN instincts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

" He may not be able to deliver on the bible telling me my doctrine is not of the bible, so no thanks."

In actuality you are already trusting another man's instincts and suspicians and that man in Arnold Murray.

"On to another subject... Latin was not spoken by Judah or Israel in the days of the bible. Your word rapture comes from some word that came much later. There is no word for rapture in the bible. This has just recently been taught."

I never said anything about rapture, and I am not going to let this discussion go there we will keep in on tract. Some manuscripts are in latin. let us suffice it at that, Do you know any of these languages other than using dictinaries?

"WHEN DID MURRAY LEARN ARABIC,GREEK,HEBREW, and LATIN" Quench

"Your suspicion that he is lying is not good enough for me."

It is an honest straightforward SIMPLE question!

A)man from Harvard studied the manuscripts Has a degree and a docterate stating so

b)man with dodgy past who calls him self a Dr. says he read the manuscripts

Which one would you choose?

" You see with Murray I believe him when he says I have read the manuscripts, he refers to them quite often, at the least once a week, I am sure it is more than that. He is familiar with the manuscripts."

You believe Murray based on his word? Why? You don't believe me based on my words, if I was on TV maybe you would have blind faith in me too? How do you know he is not lying? Where did he get the manuscripts? The internet? The library? Which library? how long did it take him to read them? How and when did he learn to read Aramaic and Hebrew?

"ex)Which would you choose? You preach to a pedaphile and he does not accept you and you leave his door never to return and he continues to rape and kill 100's of kids or you preach every day for 100 days DESPITE not being accepted and the 101st day he repents and you have just saved hundreds of children's lives." Quench

"Now you know why I didn't want to put my pearls before swine! to you quoting verses is a CONTEST and the winner QUOTES THE MOST VERSES." Quench

"Are you contradicting yourself. Hey news flash buddy your pearls of wisdom with the lack of biblical documentation does nothing for someone who is deceived by someone who twist scriptures."

So why are you so hung up on quoting the Bible?

"You have to use documentation to show there beliefs are wrong. You cant just use examples of everyday life and go you see how man's wisdom says this or that, because that is what you are doing. You think I should just accept you as being wise, you are the one who is arrogant. I know I have to use God's word. "

like you said what good is it to quote the Bible to someone who has the Bible twisted?

Jesus didn't go around quoting the Bible, he used real life examples he used logic and reason.

quench

01-11-2008, 08:59 AM

"It would only be likened to a Pharisee if you think AM is likened to Jesus christ." Quench

"How is me likening you to a Pharisee saying Murray is like Jesus in every way. You see the Pharisees accused more than just Jesus. The council had Peter and his bunch beaten in Acts 5, you should see how many things were done to Paul at the hands of these Pharisees."

1)pharisees are religious people/leaders like Sc students and AM
2)I am NOT religious but since you say I accuse AM and Pharisees accused Jesus and I am like the Pharisees then Am is like Jesus.

"I could post the whole Bible and it wouldn't matter because 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." Quench

"This is casting judgement, you have just said it would not matter if you did show me with the bible that my doctrine is wrong, because I am going to perish. "

There is nothing wrong with "rightous judgement" but I love you enough to take the time to answer all your questions and post bible verses for you anyway, even if it is a waiste of my time. (and I am not saying it is, that is up to you to determine)

"You referred to Romans which would mean that IT IS NOT NECASSARY to OWN or READ a Bible to be a saved Christian." Quench

"I think I know where you are getting this, the gentiles already lived a Christian life style. However Paul was the apostle of the gentiles, meaning he taught them God's word. What ever man is telling you that you don't need to read the bible is the false prophet."

I was actually strictly refering to romans:
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It doesn't say anything about reading a Bible, needing a Bible ect. So they can be with out excuse even if they never heard of the bible and or Jesus Christ, so that also means they can be saved without ever knowing/reading a bible and knowing the name Jesus Christ.

" The parable of the fig tree, Jesus said learn the parable of the fig tree. That was Jesus instructing them to study something. So what you have just said contradicts what God in the flesh has said."

1st plesae provide chapter and verse where Jesus says "learn the parable of the fig tree".

Assuming the parable of a fig tree saves you.

A tribe in the deepest darkest most untouched rainforest was not told the parable of a fig tree, yet according to Romans they are without excuse.

Say said tribe sees the things around them, recognize the Godhead believes that God came to be human in flesh to die for thier sins still never knowing the name Jesus Christ or reading a or knowing about a Bible, and are saved.

A Bible and the reading of, does not save you.

quench

01-11-2008, 09:05 AM

quench

01-11-2008, 10:05 AM

"Quench you have not even said what doctrine we teach that is false. You cannot expect to blanket the entire doctrine, because we teach that Jesus is the son of God."

I am still waiting for you all to answer the proof that I posted that the races were not created on the sixth day, in fact the races were not created at all. You guys have sworn up and down that the Bible says "Our father created the races on the sixth day and it was good".

Jesus is God I have yet to see you mention that.

"So what you would have to do to be one of the stronger posters, someone that could actually bring us to the light, would be to show how the doctrine does not pan out with the word of God."

I showed you that you ignore it everytime I'll keep posting it, you guys have been busted by saying that the Bible says God "created the races".

"Don't show me scriptures that say there will be false prophets, I know that there are false prophets, that does nothing for me."

OBVIOUSLY!

"What are you talking about? I am the one correcting you, anyway, I am not religious, you are the follower of a Church called Shepard's Chapel, NOT ME!" Quench

"No your not, God's word does the correcting. You have showed me verses that say there are false prophets, I could assume that is you, like wise you have assumed that is Murray. You have to correct my actual factual beliefs with scripture."

I am not on TV telling you to study with me the Bible chpter by chpter.

I am telling you to read the Bible for yourself and don't trust anybody, including me! So when Jesus describes what a False prophet/teacher does, is he describing what I do or what AM does?

Is this why you steer clear of it, look just because you don't understand my reference doesn't mean it isn't on topic.

I have not stayed clear of quoting you scripture, but I might as well be quoting it in Japanese.

"God is telling the elders in Ezekiel 13 what they are guilty of. One of them being, they say God has said, when God in fact has said nothing to them. So this would absolutely pertain to Christians on this forum. They don't correct me with God's word, they use there words and political correctness of the world and pass it off like it is what God has spoken.
So the scripture I used absolutely does pertain to what is going on here. "

I still would not knowecause you haven't actually quoted the scripture to which you refer! Quote THE SCRIPTURe so we ALL can read FOR OURSELVES what it says instead of assuming your summation is correct.

quench

01-11-2008, 10:08 AM

"Your really a bit arrogant and a lot naive to think that only a Christian knows the Bible, that is the point I was trying to make." Quench

"Being bold because you have familiarized yourself with God's word is sometimes taken as arrogance. Now you are right, more than just Christians know the bible, however with satan's example we see that they twist the word."

Now your catching on, AM twist God's word.

"So if it is not the truth it will not hold up in the rest of God's word. That is why I try to familiarize myself with the word of God. It is what destroys false traditions."

Praise the Lord! with more study I am positive you will see that AM and SC doesn't gel with God's word! When this day comes I want you to realize that you are not alone many many good people get caught up in false doctrines I myself have dodged many false prophets, they can utterly destroy some peoples life and all I want is for you and everyone to be spared that! It is hard enough picking your life up out of the depths of abuse and seeking the Lord, but then to be robbed of a true personal relationship with the Lord because you mistakenly start studying with someone like AM, this is the kind of thing that breaks my heart and gets me angry!

"I do in fact debate these types. I have seen many right here, you should see all the "I have studied for this many years" people come in here. You are new and you don't know what you are talking about. This is a public forum where I have seen all types, I have been humbled here, but I am good at what I do, by the grace of God. You could not possibly read close to a thousand posts. I have seen something somewhere else I do not know how to answer, from an atheist this much is true, but by the grace of God it does not come to me. I don't believe it will. Even if it did come up they would slip on something I do know and I would at least be redeemed. I have no fear of these people."

Sounds Good! just remember you are not debating to win a debate, you must learn from them, often these are people that have suffered dearly at the hands of "religious people".

"God is my comfort it is not my knowledge that gives me the victory, it is his guidance. I find stuff in the bible very easily when I am doing this. I don't accredit that to my brains, that much would be laughable."

Again it is not about YOU winning it should be about you learning and teaching.

"it is about Undertsanding what you believe and why you believe it by discussing what you believe with other people and understanding what they believe and why they believe it." Quench

"I don't need people's OK. You see Christ said I would be hated for his doctrine by the world in the end times, "

Who said you did? Just because someone has a diffrent belief that doesn't mean they hate you! How are you ever going to show other people the love in you that is Jesus Christ if all you care about is yourself, your beliefs, your victory?

You need to step outside your bubble and put yourself in other peoples shoes and understand them.

lutheratx

01-11-2008, 10:58 AM

"In actuality you are already trusting another man's instincts and suspicians and that man in Arnold Murray." Quench

No your not going to come in here with your words, mans words based on traditions, and sway me. Oh and Smyrna is a guy, and maybe you shouldn't call me dear, sweetie, snuggles, or anything like that, I too am a fella.

"I never said anything about rapture, and I am not going to let this discussion go there we will keep in on tract. Some manuscripts are in latin. let us suffice it at that, Do you know any of these languages other than using dictinaries?" Quench

I already know why people bring up the Latin. Latin was not spoken by even John the Revelator. So I don't include that as a language I am interested in learning. I know your precious rapture doctrine includes the Latin. You gave yourself away, because you are full of traditions, and I know why you mention the Latin. You are all messed up bro, I have studied with many TV evangelist, I have read every post directed to me (that I saw), I have read with other churches on the internet, and have given everything much much thought. That is why I am becoming so well versed. You on the other hand have to give excuses into why you don't use scripture. Well I will tell you why I think you don't

"The Bible in the form that you quote DID NOT EVEN EXIST!
You referred to Romans which would mean that IT IS NOT NECASSARY to OWN or READ a Bible to be a saved Christian." Quench

you seem to think that I don't have to study and I should just be able on my instincts to tell the real from the fake. Well why does Jesus say

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Here is Christ talking about the end times and he has to shorten the time for the elect or even they would be fooled, why? If any man should say Christ is here or there believe it not. Meaning there will be Christians who are deceived.

"Which one would you choose?" Quench

well I would say both. Bullinger believed in a rapture and we use his works as study aids all the time. Boy you really know nothing about us. You are a false accuser, just like the one you admire.

"You don't believe me based on my words, if I was on TV maybe you would have blind faith in me too?"

lutheratx

01-11-2008, 11:03 AM

Murray teaches chapter by chapter, you have told me "IS NOT NECASSARY to OWN or READ a Bible to be a saved Christian."

Which is true but I think I prefer a teacher of the bible, not some man who would not show me what is pleasing to God according to his word, not you words. You seem like the type that offers no meat, and just salvation doctrine. Salvation doctrine is very important, but I already believe in Jesus, and now I want the word of God, not some fella who likes to talk a lot and never gets around to bringing up scripture (you). So you think that it is enough to use man's logic and reasoning to overcometh, and I think it is very important to be well versed. So no, and for the record I don't blindly follow anybody, thus the reason I think one should be well versed, because then you have a guideline and are not blind.

See here is you being the opposite of me.

"So why are you so hung up on quoting the Bible?" Quench

This is the reason I don't want to hear you, you are not going to convince me to give up on the bible to here fools talk all day. Not meaning to group you in with that, so don't be like that.

"like you said what good is it to quote the Bible to someone who has the Bible twisted?"

First I didn't say that, I said the word of God is likened to a sword. The word of God is my weapon when people babyl traditions, and man's wisdom. Why, you can easily see what man's wisdom got for the 10 northern tribes.

I would not offer my pearls for you if this was not a public forum, I would have already given you the smile treatment, meaning all you would get is a smile and small talk. We could talk all day about guitars, cars, football, your house, your spouse, and God's word a little, and you would get the oh is that what you believe, but you would not realise how much I talk about God's word to those who will listen. You think you have to water those seeds, if God sees a sprout from our discussions he will deal with you, because I don't always see it. Oh ye of little faith. I discern from dealing with you that you are not interested in my doctrine, am I right?

"Jesus didn't go around quoting the Bible, he used real life examples he used logic and reason." Quench

Jesus did teach the old testament, have ye not read, it is written, and ye have heard of old. However Jesus was the living word of God, not some guy that is trying to make a case why he doesn't use any scripture to show me how I am misunderstanding the bible. You are just saying Murray is twisting the word, and your reason is your "logic and reason". Well let me tell you something scholar, Jesus said I would be hated if I followed him, that means man's reasoning, and political correctness would go directly against what I hold dear. You need to get in your father's word and find out what makes him poor out the vials of WRATH. I promise you it doesn't anger him if someone quotes a lot of his word's when talking about how one should live ones life.

lutheratx

01-11-2008, 12:53 PM

1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a biblical term, I am given the victory over the whiles of Satan.

"discussing what you believe with other people and understanding what they believe and why they believe it."

This right here seems to me you think that I need to base what I believe off of what everyone else is. I could be wrong and you don't mean that, we are allowed to missunderstand each other. However you keep saying I am in this for me, fella you know nothing about me. I have a website where I write stuff, that is invitation only right know, I share with people, I am in it to please God not self.

"1st plesae provide chapter and verse where Jesus says "learn the parable of the fig tree"."

Whats the difference "a" "the" Jesus said learn it. The word a and the are mistranslated some anyways.

"A tribe in the deepest darkest..... read his post" Quench

I agree that not all Christians have to know the parable of the Fig tree to make it in the eternity, the thing is all Christian that make the first resurrection will know it, why because Jesus said learn a parable of a fig tree. He didn't say maybe you should learn it. Now this tribe in the deepest parts ......

Rom 16:25 ¶ Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

if they don't know about it now they will, it will be taught throughout the world. So maybe you have shown that the innocent don't need to know about Jesus Christ, and will still make it into the eternity. However your average everyday Christian like yourself has no reason not to study very regular, so you should be well versed in the bible.

"Say said tribe sees the things around them, ......... read his post to save space Quench

If God wanted this tribe to know that he came in the flesh, trust me they would receive the word of God. You see us men might not know where this tribe is but God does. Oh ye of little faith. They can see that God exist through things around them but could never come to the virgin will conceive, and he would be name Immanuel. The verse, singular, yes the single verse you came up with is refering to how common sense has lead the gentiles into repentence in there own heart when they have wronged, this is talking of peoples who do not know of Jesus. Not this Christian nation, you know who Jesus is Quench, you should be learning what he say now learn.

Let scripture clear it up.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

There thoughts are what make the righteous.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Secrets of men meaning what it said in the previous verses there thoughts, you see they try to do what is right already. God judges accordingly. These are already likened to Christ in a since in the fact they try to live sin free. They would not figure out God came in the flesh from nature, they would just know the difference between things of satan, and things of God.

lutheratx

01-11-2008, 12:55 PM

Notice in chapter 2 it was different for the Jew, you see he knows the law and breaks it. If he wants to be cleared he would have to repent to Christ, so if he was studying traditions of men he should know better, so he should repent and get into his Father's word he is aware that is present.

"A Bible and the reading of, does not save you."

Does it protect you? What is your defense in your suite of armour. You don't realise something, if you worship the fake you will not make the first resurrection. Your right Jesus saves, but you will not be able to come into him, remember, I never knew you. These are those that didn't get into his word and see what it takes to please the father, when they have no excuse why they didn't. Not like the gentiles who never had the oppourtunity.

"I am still waiting for you all to answer the proof"

Your right Quench wow father's word doesn't say all races, well it also doesn't say races anywhere else in the bible. However here are gentiles with Noah's children. You know why we don't say gentiles, because people like you have not made the connection.

10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 10:4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Here is God saying after the seventh day he realised he had not made a man to till the ground.

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Hey scholar do you know what a gentile is?

Jesus is God
All things were made through
The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We get heck all the time because we believe there is not three, but one in three offices, you really don't know what you are talking about concerning us do you?

"So when Jesus describes what a False prophet/teacher does, is he describing what I do or what AM does?"

Well lets see Murray teaches the bible you teach just words and say it is of God. Lets see what God's word says.

Ezekiel 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. 13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken

By the way there is the scripture that describes you perfectly that I have been mentioning. You try to offer me this overly tolerant of traditions religion, and say my teacher is false indicating that you are sent of God. Then you say that you have showed me scripture saying I am wrong, when I have showed 5 times as much saying I know what I am talking about. You have said you wont show me scripture because I am swine, because man doesn't need it for salvation, and you did in fact judge me when you said I wouldn't get it because I will perish.

smyrna

01-11-2008, 02:43 PM

I could care less what Quench believes. I could care less that he thinks that jerk who interrupted a broadcast had some right to do so.

Heck, I'm just going to sit back and let this clown drivel himself to death.

He's got nearly everyone who has ever come here beat, with the amount of waste spewing out of his mouth.

If his words were actual garbage, you'd need an entire landfill at the end of each day for all of it.

He says it's not about winning arguments, yet he comes here and in one of his first posts claims he's going to be my match.

Since he has already contradicted himself, and more than a few times I may add,, and since he has this 'I know it all' attitude, then he may as well
hold up a sign saying 'Ultimate1' and do his daily tirade.

I've learned that if you mostly ignore these types, they go away.

Guys like this aren't even entertaining, because they offer nothing to be entertained about.

He's like a comedian who tells old jokes. No one is laughing, because they heard them all so many times.

dobman53

01-12-2008, 02:47 AM

Dear friends: You know with SD's bloodhound nose on the trail I'm begining To think she just might be on to something about PM's military records.

You know PM does have an unusual way concerning his pastorial style.

None of that crossing the heart all the time stuff.

No prayer chanting.

No screams of praise the lord.

No tongue's

No sending him money for prayers of wealth.

No slapping you up the side of the forehead, and you're instantly healed routine.

No send me some more money or I'll have to turn your station off routine.

No contact the dead fees.

ect. ect. ect!

I mean none of that stuff I see on the other guy's show's

This guy PM doesn't even believe in the rapture, and oneway says they all teach rapture.

And beings I'm so dim-witted I've found it best to always please oneway.

You know come to think about it, If I didn't know better, I'd swear PM was some kinda drill sergeant or something? Have you ever noticed that before.

Ya! thats it he acts just like a drill sergeant. Beings my liberal friends hate the military, thats why they hate PM.

I do believe I'm on to something, come to think of it. Hummm! a drill sergeant, thats definately it!!!

Excuse me for I must run, the sheperds chaple network is just now coming on. I love the starting of the show where they filmed from the front seat of his 3 billion 104 cadrillion dollar 1 prop airplane. you know the one I'm talking about stage director. Remember there in Gravett, when they went ahead and paved with real block top the runway of there airport. Built up huge hangers for 747's. added 3 miles to the runway annexed half the other ajoining county. sold war bonds, robbed the near by rapture tongue talking church.(wait a minute)

Check in your note book's there for me sugar! won't you please, I'm sure I left out volumes upon volumes of different topics each and every one of them concerning all sorts of negative things about that drill sergeant.

Don't just stand there like a dang fool! Get me them thar notes ya hear me!

poor me another coffee while your at it there! won't ya sugarbabe. please.

DOB!

oneway

01-12-2008, 03:40 AM

"I mean none of that stuff I see on the other guy's show's

This guy PM doesn't even believe in the rapture, and oneway says they all teach rapture.

And beings I'm so dim-witted I've found it best to always please oneway."

lol. What are you talkin' about, dob? What do I have to do with this? You'll have to remind me where I said all of this. lol

dobman53

01-12-2008, 05:10 AM

Oneway: sorry I didn't take notes on such matters. Though if you think back, you did say all the different faiths preached of the rapture.

We then mentioned several that didn't, and you went on about something else.

Of course we all know how I attempt to livein up a post, so not to worry.

Sometimes I do scold myself for not being more serious about things. If I were to do nothing but type verse after verse, would you want to read it. NO! probably not.

Come to think of it neither would I. I do at times post a verse or two, but then again when I speak of Biblical passages, I simply speak.

When I first began to post here just a little over about 6 months ago. I can remember being challenged to back up what I say. So off I did run to search the sriptures. I typed up my post all laid out chapter and verse, and no responce.

So again I made a few more post, and same thing, A challenge! so again back I did go again to search the sciptures. typed it all up real pretty and nice, and bingo! this time a quick responce stateing You need more scriptures to back your claims.

So like the well intentioned person that I most truley am, back to my search I did go. Then all of a sudden I realised hey wait a minute I've been on line for about 2 hours with every responce saying you need to back it up further.

At that rate I realized I was spending a 10 to 1 ratio at the keyboards. all against my favor. Then the lights came on I realized it wasn't me who needed to spend time with the Bible in hand, it was them. Since then I have used a reverse psychology you prove me wrong. You don't need to search any scriptures should want to make a point I'll already know if it's biblical or not, or weather it's just confussion.

I'm not trying to drag you into anything oneway, Honest! WE bump heads to be sure but I'm simply about doing my gardening is all.

DOB!

dobman53

01-12-2008, 05:50 AM

Oneway:

(I mean none of that stuff I see on the other guys shows)

I'm busted once again!

poor poor sentance structure! (again)!!

My attempt was to act like I did not see anything listed from above on PM's shows, acting as if I were shocked and all.

As all the silly fools seem so convinced of this about him, beings he doesn't get all crazy, many a fool probably feels cheated, and they then might wonder when does he start showing us something like starved kids.

These fools seem to love showing starved kids, all the better for them to fleece the flock don't you know. Though these new wave holy joe's probably think well I'm not really flock stripping.

In their screwy minds they probably think hey! I've haven't had a vacation in over 2 weeks so I'll just stop by the quicky mart buy a little grub.

Head out for the airport gas up the air liner. Head straight to the nearest starved kids. Film themselves handing over some grub, then write it off on the golden goose ### I mean the ministry.

Hey wait a minute oneway are you trying to send me on a wild goose chase serching down scriptures!

NAAHHH!

you wouldn't do that. (right)

DOB!

smyrna

01-12-2008, 06:51 AM

'Excuse me for I must run, the sheperds chaple network is just now coming on. I love the starting of the show where they filmed from the front seat of his 3 billion 104 cadrillion dollar 1 prop airplane. you know the one I'm talking about stage director. Remember there in Gravett, when they went ahead and paved with real block top the runway of there airport. Built up huge hangers for 747's. added 3 miles to the runway annexed half the other ajoining county. sold war bonds, robbed the near by rapture tongue talking church.(wait a minute)"

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

DOB! YOU ARE THE BEST!

dobman53

01-12-2008, 07:15 AM

smyrna: Some times I just gotta take the hose to them. A good sraying never hurt no one. the way things are around hear a lotta the times, I should have really doused them by opening the valve of a cotton picking fire hose.

As my favorite marine might say (Lets roll)

DOB!

stage_director

01-13-2008, 02:24 AM

QUOTE
Excuse me for I must run, the sheperds chaple network is just now coming on. I love the starting of the show where they filmed from the front seat of his 3 billion 104 cadrillion dollar 1 prop airplane. you know the one I'm talking about stage director. Remember there in Gravett, when they went ahead and paved with real block top the runway of there airport. Built up huge hangers for 747's. added 3 miles to the runway annexed half the other ajoining county. sold war bonds, robbed the near by rapture tongue talking church.
QUOTE

Let me help you out, Dob ... Murray's hanger is in Rogers, AR at 1B Morsani Drive next to the Rogers Municipal Airport. If you get lost, the parcel # to this property is 02-00643-620.

If you'd care to see the record for Murray's four million dollar turbo jet "prop plane" the FAA number is N661AJ.

aviyah

01-13-2008, 05:02 AM

What can I say...some folks have bizarre obsessions!!!

lutheratx

01-13-2008, 08:38 AM

How many hours do you think that Stage has spent on the SC, do you think she has spent money also?

I have said it before and will say it again, if Stage's calling from God was to battle false Christianity it would not be limited to just one church. It would not take hours of research into that churches doctrine either. It also would not be limited to false Christianity. If she in fact was a satan fighter it would be very broad I assure you.

We will take Abiyah here for instance, she is able to debate with the best of them. She is able to do this with any doctrine. She may study that doctrine for a little while if she comes across an article or something. However she soon returns to the real studies that makes one able to handle the cults that are in the world. What I am saying she is able to battle satan without having to dig in peoples past, spend money on the investigations, have private information no one else does, spend hours upon hours waisting her time on a Church when she should be in the bible, also providing information she really has no proof on, using speculation on a good deal of information and call it proofs, stereo typing students, provide support to any person who will come to here aid no matter what that person says about Christianity, for that matter jumping on any new guys platform without seeing what he believes as long as he is against SC i.e. kicking butt, I am sure I could go on all night, but I don't need another 7.5 post. So Abiyah is able to do it with the Sword of the Spirit, as scripture points to that being the defense one would have against false doctrine, not Stages supposed gift.

Abiyah studies God's word and some how the crack pots seem to come to her, like some how she knows she will be persecuted for the doctrine she spreads.

Abiyah is a cult fighter, not Stage, why? Well because her ability is not limited, and hers is given through study in the word, and if you ask me, I believe it is easy to see by most that Stage's understanding of the bible is full of traditions and holes.

Like when we were talking about a premeditate murder not having salvation in the flesh, she used Paul as an example of someone who is a premeditated murder who had salvation in the flesh.

Like when we were discussing when satan comes, she said he would not say he is Christ. Here is Jesus saying just the opposite.

24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

I would document more of her lack of bible skills, but I have two reasons for not doing so. One I want to use only examples that would not be argued by most scholars, two I just found some guy named Plow deep here, in other words I stumbled across something else I find way more interesting then looking for examples of Stages shotty bible work. The two I gave are off the top of my head, but really who could believe the way she does on those points. There is actually a third reason too, she likes to accuse more than she likes to research. So she is more of an student of accusation scholars, not bible scholars. So it is hard to find her discussing any bible doctrine.

You want examples of traditions look at the "just for you Smyrna" thread and right at the close of that thread we have a talk about her traditions. Note she does not use scripture to point that she is accurately following the Christian faith, she uses her words. How revealing.

smyrna

01-13-2008, 06:30 PM

Excellent post Luther,

While Stage Director is chasing airplanes, military records, and scheming to come up with more attacks, rumors, etc., every weekday, around the world,on TV as well as shortwave radio, the SC is broadcast to millions of homes.

And hundreds of thousands of hours of study time is spent by all the students who follow those teachings.

Stage Director, and people like her, are a very small minority, and like you said, she is obsessed with the SC.

I started a thread on the ICGJC over at CB, and all they did was try and turn it into another SC hater's thread. So now, counting that, they have four threads dedicated to whining and complaining about the SC.

It's really sad.

And all they do is repeat the same old accusations, I suppose they have some whimsical notion that somehow by chanting them over and over again, they may just come true someday.

As for the doctrines they disagree with, they refuse to just agree to disagree, and then they
proceed to inject their own venomous interpretations of those doctrines and claim that mush is produced is actually the teachings themselves.

When you ask them to prove that the SC is racist, they predictably launch into the old forced guilt by association scheme, claiming that the SC is a Christian Identity Church. When you show them evidence that the SC is not arcist or CI, they say we are lying or someone else is.

When you show that non-white members of the SC actually exist,they say those people are deceived,and insult them by saying they are too ignorant to know.

Yeah, everybody is too stupid and ignorant to know except the detractors.

The major media is too stupid, the ADL is too stupid, thousands and thaousand of students are too stupid, everyone is stupid except for them.

But when you actually find a detractor that wants to talk Bible, they hide behind fundamentalism, and proceed to play all kinds of trick to try and get around the fact they get trounced all the time.

When their opinion clashed with the SC's tey say the SC is wrong. In other cases, they'll attck the messnger, and even try and discredsit highly respected Bible scholars.

But them they cite other scholars to "prove" they are right.

To them, there are no differences of opinion.

But it's always something.

So when you read the threads here, you'll see all those tricks, and more.

You'll see them ignore evidence that they are wrong. You'll see them disappear for a few days, or even permanently, from a thread. It's always some sneaky, deceptive way to get around their own ineptitude,silly ideas, and now, to me at least, they are just a form of entertainment.

I just toy with them, poke fun at them, and show that they can't possibly be right about their accusations, and then watch them with amusement as they stumble and bumble, or rant and rage.

oneway

01-13-2008, 06:53 PM

"around
the world,on TV as well as shortwave radio, the SC is broadcast to millions of homes."

lol. try 24/7. You need to get one of those big c band dishes. Then you can see your hero 24 hours a day on your big screen tv. The picture looks so good, it's almost like watching AM in hi-def. Too bad the sound coming from that high quality video sucks tho.

dobman53

01-13-2008, 10:11 PM

SD: Some turbo-prop planes do cost 4 million dollars when brand new.

My brother inlaw used to fly a Cessena 182. In it's day it was considered a high performance airplane. It had a variable pitch prop, a high performance engine, and could carry 4 passengers. It could cruze all day long at 170mph.

It was really something to fly around in, you would be over one city one moment, and within minutes you would be over another. When flying close to the ground it was amazeing just how fast 170mph really was. I mean thing litterally flew by.

This plane when new cost a whole lotta money. just how much I can't remember. though he as Pastor Murray didn't buy their planes new. I believe my brother in law spent about 40 some thousand for his plane. new I think the plane sold for over 150 thousand.(ONLY A GUESS)

Pastor Murray doesn't speak a whole lot about personal things. But being such an avid viewer as I am of his show. I remember some where or another him mentioning of the plane as used.

Now don't start after me of which show, or which time frame cause I wouldn't be able to even guess at such. Again I'm quite sure that now you will insist I don't have enough evidence, or perhaps that maybe I should do a more thorough biblical search of more chapters and verse to back up my claims.

NO! NO! my sweet little pet! it is you that has fallen far far short of all know facts.

Oneway Oneway: My brother inlaw who had the plane. He had a big C dish, and big screen to boot. Guess what??? The sound back then was just as true as it is today.

DOB!

smyrna

01-13-2008, 10:31 PM

Dobman,

You gotta love Stage Detractor's comments after you poked fun of her about the plane.

She worded her reply as if you didn't believe he had a plane!

How stupid is that? After all, you mentioned that the program shows the plane taking off from inside the aircraft.

I love for these "Godchild moments" Stage Director has.

If all those false allegations of hers isn't bad enough, she has to act stupid, too.

oneway

01-13-2008, 11:17 PM

"Oneway Oneway: My brother inlaw who had the plane. He had a big C dish, and big screen to boot. Guess what??? The sound back then was
just as true as it is today."

lol. Somehow I knew you scers wouldn't get it.
The sound I was referring to was AM's voice. But hey, mute buttons actually do have a useful purpose. Great looking picture though.

All kidding aside, I did happen to tune into AM right after my prev post. This was one of those episodes where he was teaching from the pulpit about salvation. At first I couldn't find much fault with his teaching, that was until he started going off about that imaginary prev earth age, the one that can't be proven by the Bible.
And of course, right after that episode comes one of the famous SC commercials...the Book of Deuteronomy on 16 cassette tapes..only 80 bucks.
The way AM has it setup tho is like this. The tapes are free if one donates 80 bucks. If that doesn't sound like what these other preachers on tv do, then I don't know what does. These people on tv are selling gifts and calling it donations. And most of you buy into that concept like it's going out of style.

lutheratx

01-14-2008, 12:36 AM

"I started a thread on the ICGJC over at CB, and all they did was try and turn it into another SC hater's thread. So now, counting that, they have four threads dedicated to whining and complaining about the SC." Smyrna

Are you serious, what the hey, I really don't get that. Actually I do, but that completely exposes the fraud that is Cultbusters.

Great points Smyrna

dobman53

01-14-2008, 12:57 AM

Dear friends:

Human Emotional Characteristics we all have them.
Shurely we can all agree about that. Quirks are something that are self apparent as well. I don't know if it's a quirk or simply a characteristic but I have noticed a pattern amongst my decenting friends here as of late.

Let me use Arron for an example (arron I'm not just picking on you! OK!) Over on another tread I put Arron between a rock, and a hard spot over the matter concerning God being represented as a God of torture.

Has Arron learned well? or is it just another quirk how he slipped the issue. As he then proceeded too slip from the issue, He diverted all notions about hell. Then went on to say of how he was so holy blessed, and began to spell holy words with capital letters. Of course ones not to forget he then began to speak of the breed of dog that came to his holy mind! The whole while never again to mentioning his loving God of hell fire!

Do I see the same in lets say Oneway? Oh! you bet I do! When Oneway finds himself in between that imperviabal rock, and a hard spot. He too then resorts to a spin. Her lately he often reminds me of my JW days, and of the lost fool he thinks of me to be. Saying he only wishes that if I weren't so stupid I too could see his light.

Sorry oneway I see you as myself 25 years ago. I then like you now, thought I new far far more than I actually did. Oneway I remember once my reverand back then said to me while I was giving him a ride to the airport. that I just as well lead the sermonds , saying that I new more about biblical subjects than he did. Of course I should have taken that with a grain of salt, but allas my head did swell up like an old used football. Oneway is your head swollen?

How should I bring to everones thoughts or attentions concerning Stage Director? That truely is a mighty handfull. Dear SD you are without reprouch! far above the others concerning these issues of which I speak. I'll not even mention any for I have but 4000 charactors with which I'm confined to this post.

Quench: Dodge: No spin necessary! Your DNA shall avoid all mandkinds detection, or at least until they come up with an all new way to detect!

IIm: there you are right in amongst them all. Dazed, and confused. Going round and round in each of your endividual emotions, and quirks! Totally blind, Totally lost, forever screaming BLASPEMY!!

Sorry my dear friends I'm not upset with any of you. I guess I just needed to get some things off my chest. I know your not going to believe me when I say this, but I do truley care for each and everyone of you, and yes it's true I do love you all.

I'll take the wrath! of this it is to be certain. But my friends I'm not about to ever never stop Loving You!

DOB!

SD: You do hold a spot in my heart. sorry about the wrath. you think about it though OK!

lutheratx

01-14-2008, 01:09 AM

80/16 = 5

Wow how does he get away with it. It is almost like he doesn't want to flip the entire bill on staying on the air, after all God's word says we serve the preacher. Oh wait God's word say the preacher serves us, so I can pay him 4 bucks a tape, that's reasonable.

So you want Murray to pay taxes on his products, and no one else to have to. Well I will tell you that Murray could sue the crap out of stage director because his works are copy written, why does he not do this? Well because he has made a very easy going rule on copying his material. I don't have to pay a dime for those tapes of Duet, they are absolutely free online because of his rule on copying his material. Murray has given a reason why he is copy written, some guy was actually selling his stuff, and copying everything about the show.

He also teaches everything from the tapes on the show for free. So just like anyone going into church on Sunday he offers his teachings freely.

As for a scholar like yourself having a problem with the show, this is really a reason for me to take a second look. Man humble yourself.

You say the bible doesn't say anything about the world before. Do you believe that dinosaurs and man lived together. Well if you don't, guess what that is a different age. Look and see how scholars have determined that Job was the oldest book next to Genesis, more than likely during Genesis, and God had to explain the behemoth to Job. If the dinosaurs where alive during Genesis God would have just said you see that huge animal over there, well I can control it.

To think that there would be no memory of the behemoth with man is limited. More than likely there would be huge bones all over the place if nothing else, because not all of them became fossilized, and the world was covered with them.

I'm sure you will explain this with the flood, Gosh you are so smart, but God told Noah to take two of all flesh. I guess the dinosaurs were hiding.

And for any new readers the Chapel absolutely does show that the first earth age and the dinosaurs are very biblical.

dobman53

01-14-2008, 01:11 AM

Oneway: I realise you could never sit still long enough to listen to 16 tapes much less understand them. Imagine purchasing something that you could learn something from, putting aside the donation for the ministery.

I'm sure you would much rather donate $29.99 for a prayer cloth or something. Keep them stupid you know so they don't stray from the donation plate.

I mean thats what keeps you coming back ignorance! Ignorance Now there's a subject I think you've bet your soul on there old buddy

DOB.

smyrna

01-14-2008, 05:58 PM

Oneway,

"At first I couldn't find much fault with his teaching, that was until he started going off about that imaginary prev earth age, the one that can't be proven by the Bible."

The Bible rarely proves anything to unbelievers. Most of Christianity relies on faith.

But science does prove a former age.

Unless you think the dinosaurs are still walking around or that the continents were never joined together.

Look at a flat map of the earth, and you'll see that they fit together like a jigsaw puzzle.

You can read of, and see, evidence of huge asteroid impact in that age before this one, impact that would certainly have thrown the earth not only off its axis, but into the Ice Age.

So go head, Oneway,just blow off all that evidence and so much more, so you can claim that you need the Bible to tell you what is obvious to everyone else that can read long enough to be convinced.

By the way, it can be proven or at least supported by science and the Bible if you knew how to read the Bible, instead of listening to a bunch of uneducated detractors.

dobman53

01-14-2008, 07:53 PM

Oneway: With my telescope I enjoy haveing people take their first real look at the heavens. I often tell them their looking through a time machine. It's usually then I point the scope at the Andrameda Galaxy. I tell them your not seeing as it is, but how it was over 2 milion years ago!

The speed of light in a known fact. Through the red shift in the spectrum's of light, we can see that the universe is billions of years old.

Oneway do you think of God as a young upstart! Who just here recently in the past 6000 years stumbled upon the power to create things.

Oneway the Bible speaks of a first world age. The problems you are now having are simply from the zeal you have, that is to not rock ones own boat of biblical thought.

I know you think of me as lost, and I'll just for now go ahead and except it. Oneway I know you honestly do hope to see me stay clear of your supposed blasphemy's of thought. But dear friend is it I whom seem lost. or is you whom should further investigate.

Oneway I have vented as of here lately, and once more I feel the need to apologize, So again I hope you can over look my short comings.

Your friend as always DOB!