Word of Faith deadly Message

[agent1]

Wonder how many have died from the Word of Faiths deadly message, that faith is all that is needed to be healed. Here is a post from a young lady whose mother died believing she would be healed if she would just give to the Kenneth Copeland ministries(so he could get another plane). This story has been on major news stations and is a real eye opener as to how deceiving Word of Faith is!


kbeach
New member
Username: kbeach

Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 209.183.34.46
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 8:31 pm: would like to take the time to thank all who have stood beside us during this trying time! We are all so very grateful. I have a link all can visit to view pages of mom’s diary, there is only a few now but I hope to post them all on this site. If you have any questions about these pages please let me know.
Thank you!
Kris


Also if you would like to share your story you can visit,
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/mrs-bonnie-parker/#comment-1742
Or

[agent1]

Here is a link that outlines some of the dangers of the very controversial Word of Faith message

http://www.biblebb.com/files/wrdfaith.htm.

[truth_child]

i dont know how many have died from the wof but plenty have died of the foolish ideas the ones who say dont take med and let their children or themselves die from it.

[Night_Light]

There are other dangerous and scandalous groups that have been connected to WOF.


They include the Whaley group from Spindle South Carolina WOFF (Word of Faith Fellowship), Jane is a graduate of Rhema. A Bible college started by Kenneth Hagin a pioneer of the WOF movement.

Also, the Word of Faith Family Church started by Robert Tilton who associated with many WOF preachers. Many know him as TV preacher who has been involved in less than reputable behavior.

Faith World Church started by Benny Hinn who follows the WOF teachings and has been known to stage healings .


Though some WOF ministers try to distance themselves from these above preachers they are connected by many of their beliefs which include faith healing, prosperity teaching and the name it and claim it teachings.

[Night_Light]

Here are some infamous WOF quotes.

Kenneth Copeland: “Several people that I know had criticized and called that faith bunch out of Tulsa a cult. And some of ’em are dead right today in an early grave because of it, and there’s more than one of them got cancer” (“Why All Are Not Healed,” tape #01-4001).

Benny Hinn: "I place a curse on every man and every woman that would stretch his hand against this anointing; I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry... "(Denver Crusade, September 17th 1999)

Beny Hinn: “Be careful! Your little ones may suffer because of your stupidity. Now I’m pointing my finger today, with the mighty power of God on me, and I speak. ... And your children will suffer. If you care for your kids, stop attacking Benny Hinn” (World Charismatic Conference, Aug. 7, 1992).


Benny Hinn: “Those who put us down are a bunch of morons. ... You know, I’ve looked for one verse in the Bible, I just can’t seem to find it. One verse that says, ‘If you don’t like ’em, kill ’em.’ I really wish I could find it. ... Sometimes I wish God would give me a Holy Ghost machine gun — I blow your head off!” (Benny Hinn on TBN’s “Praise-A-Thon,” April 1990).

[Night_Light]

There are many, many more of these deceiving quotes. they prey on people's emotions and desire to be healed and prosperous just by speaking it in to existence.

Fred Price: "If you keep talking death, that is what you are going to have. If you keep talking sickness and disease, that is what you are going to have, because you are going to create the reality of them with your own mouth. That is a divine law." (Fred Price, Realm, 29).

Kenneth Copeland : "What you are saying is exactly what you are getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want, change what you are saying.... The powerful force of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around us is controlled by the words of the mouth." (The Laws of Prosperity, Kenneth Copeland, Ft. Worth: Kenneth Copeland Publications)

Frederick K.C. Price : "God can't do anything in this earth realm except what we, the body of Christ, allow Him to do. Now that statement is so--that's so--that's so foreign and so contrary to tradition that, like I said, if they could get their hands on me right now most evangelicals would burn me at the stake and dismember me and feed me to the crocodiles, because they'll consider that statement to be just heresy." ("Ever Increasing Faith" program on TBN [1 May 1992], audiotape #PR11.) Cf. chapter 6, 85.

[Night_Light]

A few more of the many deceiving quotes from WOF(word of faith ministers)

Fred Price: "The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see--to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you- thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps." ("Ever Increasing Faith" program on TBN (9 December 1990].)

Fred Price: God has displeasure in poverty. (Ever Increasing Faith, recorded 11/16/90)

Robert Tilton: Being poor is a sin. (Success in Life, recorded 12/2/90)

Robert Tilton: The only time people were poor in the Bible is when they were under a curse. (Success in Life, recorded 12/2/90)

John Avanzini: Paul had the kind of money that could stop up justice. (Believer's Voice of Victory, (TBN) 1/20/91)

Benny Hinn: When you don't give money, it shows that you have the devil's nature. (Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded 4/21/91)

Benny Hinn: Sow a big seed, when you confess it, you are activating the supernatural forces of God. (Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded November 1990)

[Night_Light]

John Piper said of the WOF movement

When I read about prosperity-preaching churches, my response is: “If I were not on the inside of Christianity, I wouldn’t want in.” In other words, if this is the message of Jesus, no thank you.

Luring people to Christ to get rich is both deceitful and deadly. It’s deceitful because when Jesus himself called us, he said things like: “Any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). And it’s deadly because the desire to be rich plunges “people into ruin and destruction” (1 Timothy 6:9)

[Night_Light]

Another website that posts some of the outrageous quotes from WOF ministers

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/wfquotes.html

[Night_Light]

WOFF is the end result of WOF. Just as Jane is a result of Rhema Bible college, WOF ministers may try to distance themselves from this group and claim they have nothing to do with her for fear of backlashing but her roots are firm in WOF. Most WOFF followers are recruited by others they have met in their small WOF churches.

[Night_Light]

WOFF is the end result of WOF. Just as Jane is a result of Rhema Bible college, WOF ministers may try to distance themselves from this group and claim they have nothing to do with her for fear of backlashing but her roots are firm in WOF. Most WOFF followers are recruited by others they have met in their WOF churches.

[Night_Light]

And the result has lead to this.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPpbmDDRm8M

[Night_Light]

The fastest growing segment of professing Christianity today is the Word-Faith Movement, also known as the Positive Confession or simply "Faith" movement. Its growth is at least partially due to the massive amounts of money the leaders are able to extract from the faithful. This influx of cash allows for huge buildings and extensive ministries, and more importantly, wide exposure on television, which translates into numerical growth. Not only do many Word-Faith preachers broadcast their services and campaigns, but Word-Faith adherents, Paul and Jan Crouch, own the largest Christian-based television network in the world. The Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), founded by the Crouches, with an estimated net worth of approximately $600 million dollars, is capable of televising the Faith message (as well as many other errant messages) all over the world.

Well-known personalities within the movement include Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Robert Tilton (who is staging a come-back), Paul Yonggi Cho, Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hickey, Frederick K.C. Price, John Avanzini, Charles Capps, Jerry Savelle, Morris Cerullo and of course, Paul and Jan Crouch.
Beliefs

Faith Is a Force

As is implied by the title "Word-Faith," the supporters of this movement believe that faith works like a mighty power or force. Through faith, we can obtain anything we want -- health, wealth, success, whatever. However, this force is only released through the spoken word. As we speak the words of faith, power is discharged to accomplish our desires. Hagin's theme, as found in his booklet How to Write Your Own Ticket with God, can be summarized as follows (Christianity in Crisis, pp. 74-75):

In the opening chapter, titled "Jesus Appears to Me," Hagin claims that while he "was in the Spirit" -- just like the apostle John on the Isle of Patmos -- a white cloud enveloped him and he began to speak in tongues. "Then the Lord Jesus Himself appeared to me," says Hagin. "He stood within three feet of me." After what sounded like a casual conversation about such things as finances, ministry, and even current affairs, Jesus told Hagin to get a pencil and a piece of paper. He then instructed him to "Write down: 1,2,3,4." Jesus then allegedly told Hagin "if anybody, anywhere, will take these four steps or put these four principles into operation, he will always receive whatever he wants from Me or from God the Father." That includes whatever you want financially. The formula is simply: "Say it, Do it, Receive it, and Tell it."

1. Step number one is "Say it." "Positive or negative, it is up to the individual. According to what the individual says, that shall he receive."
2. Step number two is "Do it." "Your action defeats you or puts you over. According to your action, you receive or you are kept from receiving."
3. Step number three is "Receive it." We are to plug into the "powerhouse of heaven." "Faith is the plug, praise God! Just plug in."
4. Step number four is "Tell it so others may believe." This final step might be considered the Faith movement's outreach program.

Kenneth Copeland states the faith formula this way: "All it takes is 1) Seeing or visualizing whatever you need, whether physical or financial; 2) Staking your claim on Scripture; and 3) Speaking it into existence" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 80).

Paul Yonggi Cho, borrowing from the occult, has developed what he calls the "Law of Incubation." Here is how it works: "First make a clear-cut goal, then draw a mental picture, vivid and graphic, to visualize success. Then incubate it into reality, and finally speak it into existence through the creative power of the spoken word" (Christianity in Crisis, pp. 83-84).

If a positive confession of faith releases power, then according to Word-Faith, a negative confession can actually backfire. Capps says the tongue "can kill you, or it can release the life of God within you." This is so because, "Faith is a seed … you plant it by speaking it." There is power in "the evil fourth dimension" says Cho. Hagin informs us that if you confess sickness you get sickness, if you confess health you get health, whatever you say you get. "This spoken word … releases power -- power for good or power for evil," is the commonly held view of the movement. It is easy to see why the title "Positive Confession" is often applied to this group.

As one might guess, the teachings of the Faith movement are very attractive to some. If we can produce whatever our hearts desire by simply demanding what we want by faith, if we can manipulate the universe and perhaps even God, then we have our own personal genie just waiting to fulfill our wishes. Frederick K.C. Price wastes no words when he writes:

"Now this is a shocker! But God has to be given permission to work in this earth realm on behalf of man. … Yes! You are in control! So if man has control, who no longer has it? God. ... When God gave Adam dominion, that meant God no longer had dominion. So, God cannot do anything on this earth unless we let Him or give Him permission through prayer" (Prayer: Do You Know What Prayer Is. ... and How to Pray? The Word Study Bible, p. 1178).

This is certainly a theology that would appeal to the masses, and thus accounts for the Faith movement's popularity.

[truth_child]

night light spindale is in nourth carolina not south carolina thank GOD

[Night_Light]

I apologize for the posting the wrong state. Not ONLY is Jane spreading her hate in NC, The witch also has a big following in Sweden. She has devestated lives and she needs to be jailed for the physical abuse she and others have done to children. Watch the youtube segment, they have beaten and bloodied children and they have blasted(yelled and screamed for demonic powers to be released) this is a cult that has lasted too long.

[Night_Light]

Jane Whaley also decides who needs medical treatment, she decides where people live and where people work, she also decides when a married couple can have sex and wants all the details afterward. She feels she hears directly from God(a WOF trait as they believe they are gods) you can hear the evil in her voice as she speaks on the youtube video.

[Night_Light]

http://www.discernment.org/wordfaith/WOF.htm#Positive%20Confession

God's Will Is Always Healing -

It is not God's will for any of His children to be sick. It is His will for all of them to be healed when (if) they do get sick. This heresy has probably caused more pain, suffering, and guilt than almost any other lie that WOF promotes. Many of the WOF ministers have had bouts with serious illness and have had to resort to using (gasp) doctors and medicine. Oral Roberts, had the lack of faith to start a medical school. Charles Capps wife suffered with cancer and was treated for it. Fred Price's wife was treated for cancer. R.W. Schambach has had heart by-pass surgery, etc. Yet, to a person, they will tell you that it is God's will to always heal the believer. Dr. Hobart Freeman taught that using doctors was a sin, as a result over 50 people died in his church, and later he himself died of a treatable ailment. Now there is a big push on diet, vitamins, herbs, and exercise among charismatic ministers (they are growing older now). Dr. Cherry is a medical doctor who has a show on TBN and many follow his medical advice . . .yet it is still God's will to always heal.

[Night_Light]

Yes WOF and WOFF ministers are very hedonistic. Below readers will find some samplings from a website called the examination of the Word-faith movement.

A Sampling of Error

To name just a few of the more outrageous things that have been said by these so-called teachers will stagger the senses:

John Avanzini is convinced that "Jesus had a nice big house",(4) "Jesus wore designer clothes",(5) and "Jesus was handling big money".(6)

Fred Price also claims that Jesus was rich and that He left us with an example to follow. That is why Fred drives a Rolls Royce; he is following Jesus' example!

Mr. Price also communicates one of the more sickening beliefs of the Word-Faith teachers which shocks even those with a mild amount of common sense. He says, "How can you glorify God in your body, when it doesn't function right?....What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside of a body where He can't see out through the windows, and He can't hear out the ears?"(7) This insulting and insensitive comment regarding the handicapped and crippled among us stirs up anger in even the most hardened of consciences. Yet this statement by Mr. Price is followed by exuberant applause and approval from his congregation (I would like to hear Mr. Price say this to Joni Eareckson, or Tony Melendez).

These kind of statements boggle our minds and stagger our senses. It would seem that most people would see the error in these teachings, yet millions follow these men with a militant passion.

[Night_Light]

And by the way, blaming followers of this movement including Whaley's is a low blow, that should not be tolerated here. This is a place where SOME people are coming to find release from cults or to get information on certain religious organizations.

[Alexis]

You are right again. The most grievous heartwrenching tactic is when someone diagnosed with a disease etc.he or she is told "it is the judgement of God on your life". I know that is a fact because I heard it with my own ears. The God I know and serve is a loving, caring God. The harsh words that these people speak makes your blood curdle.

[Alexis]

Jane Whaley also decides who needs medical treatment, she decides where people live and where people work, she also decides when a married couple can have sex and wants all the details afterward. She feels she hears directly from God(a WOF trait as they believe they are gods) you can hear the evil in her voice as she speaks on the youtube video.
Night_Light
I have to respond to your message. I always felt like the info concerning sex was true, but, now I know for sure. I was in a marriage that was more like a brother sister relationship for the last 10 out of 37 years. Now I know why. I have since discussed this issue with others and they confirmed this info. How ungodly. Where will this stop?

[Night_Light]

Well, I am not sure this kind of thing will ever stop, Jane may eventually be stopped legally or she may retire AND someone else may step up to the plate or better yet in my book one of those kids she allowed to be beaten ought to hit her upside the head with a board and knock some sense into her!

The good thing is you and 25 others are trying to break the bonds with this cult and it is in EVERY way a cult. Don't ever regret leaving, and though you may want to regret the years lost in that cult don't let the past hold you down. Live for today and for a bright future and the truth may set others free.

May I ask, how did you end up there? I never see books, tapes or advertising anywhere by Whaley. How does one get into that church? can anyone visit on Sunday or do you have to be a member?

[truth_child]

i prya she is stoped somehow or else sees the light on the gospel and gets like she should. it is wrong to tell people not to use doctors and it is wrong to hold someone illegaly in a church that is not teaching the true WORD OF GOD

[Night_Light]

Yes, truthchild, it would seem that it would be illegal to be doing those things she does also but what I have heard is that she and he husband have strong ties within the judicial system and with the local police, maybe they pay people off who knows. And again people should not be held back from doctors,finding their own home and jobs , living in a loving marriage because of Jan Whaley.

But again what iIwould like to know is how does someone end up in the WOFF church, from what I heard some of them attend small non-denominational churches that preach the word of faith message and are somehow drawn into her congregation by making visits. It is important for people to know "where it starts". Who gets close to Jane and how do you get close to Jane?

I also hope alexis can make some changes, those of us who lose loved ones to cults have to be the voice of change!

[Night_Light]

As I suspected it is rare one would come into this church without some type of recruiting elsewhere. I am sure there are more than this


http://members.lycos.co.uk/leftthewoff/aff.html

[Night_Light]

Alexis i will post this here on the woff thread as well.


If you are the survivor of WOFF, or a church that was taken over by WOFF and you have left that church and feel that you are in need of and desire to seek professional help and counseling, I have received an e-mail from Mr. Lawrence A. (Larry) Pile who works for the nationally known Wellspring Retreat & Resource Center that is a residential treatment facility that provides a program of counseling and instruction to victims of cultic abuse, religious abuse and/or mind control. Wellspring is a nonprofit corporation and the nation's only residential treatment center for cult victims that also provides consultation to families who have loved ones in cults. Wellspring is accredited by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations. Wellspring also researches and archives information on the various groups in the cult world, researches the cult phenomenon in a clinical setting in conjunction with Ohio University, attends and speaks at national conferences, and conducts phone and on-site consultations for families and friends of cult victims. http://www.wellspringretreat.org

[truth_child]

nught light the wof church must be in greenville for it is not in spartanburg, i dont live in spartanburg but i dont know of one there now greenville maybe so for they have a lot of cults there

[Night_Light]

Who knows TC. They start off in these whacky wof/non-denom/charsmatic churches then they start meeting in peoples homes listening to her tapes then they head to spindale for a visit and a blast. What a freaking mess of a cult. I really do wish I was wonder woman, I would give anything to save those people. I understand separation of church and state but church is different then cult..

Some say to me why do you pick on these poor preachers, do you like any preacher. Sure most are okay but these blasting/name it and claim it prosperity nuts are only out for one thing..............THEMSELVES!

[Night_Light]

A wikipedia summary of WOF


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith

[Night_Light]

Sometimes I am terribly sad I even try to care for others on these boards-what a crying shame when you just keep being played-then others wonder why you had to hide behind other names in the past. But one thing is for sure a little info each day written on factnet about WOF and WOFF will help others who come here to peek-realize it's cultish ways and desire to control and manipulate others...

Just remember folks, if you are sick or your LOVED one is sick(maybe with cancer or just the flu) WOF preachers will tell you it is because you have SIN in your life!

[truth_child]

if i get sick i got sense enough to know it and if necessary i got to the doctor no matter what someone says

[Night_Light]

Excellent advice Truth Child.. I appreciate your openess and wisdom here..I will be off for a few days on business but will be back posting more of the outrageous claims of these groups when possible...

[Night_Light]

VERITAS
"Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise?"
By Craig Branch (http://www.arcapologetics.org/branch.htm)
Nov-Dec 2003 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but [wanting] to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)
Our previous issue of Areopagus Journal (http://www.arcapologetics.org/areopagus.htm) (“Wolves Among the Sheep”) was part one of a two part focus on a segment within the broad Christian community known under various names—the Word-Faith Movement (WOF), the Health & Wealth Gospel, Prosperity teaching, Name-it and Claim-it, and Positive Confession. This movement is led by a close-knit band of teachers who are growing in influence due especially to their frequent presence on Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), a network on the air throughout the U.S. and expanding rapidly abroad. For example, we have discovered a considerable influence had by them in Africa resulting in many African Christians coming to the U. S. already infected with WOF teaching.
This issue of Areopagus Journal (http://www.arcapologetics.org/areopagus.htm) focuses on the faulty and sometimes tragic teaching of positive confession and the health and wealth dimensions of the WOF theology. Our prior journal exposed the historical evolution of the movement as well as their perverted and heretical views on the nature of God, Jesus, and redeemed humanity (biblical anthropology). Those doctrines are actually the most serious as they are heresies that can be eternally fatal. However, their emphasis on health and prosperity can be spiritually and physically damaging as well.
The Healing Heresy
An eight-year-old child with autism died during a healing service at Faith Temple in Milwaukee. The pastor, two church women, the boy’s mother and the pastor’s brother, laid hands on him and tried to cast out evil spirits from him. After all, doesn’t the Bible say this is the way to do it in Luke 4:40-41 (javascript:;)?1
Ten-year-old Jessica died in her home from cardio-respiratory failure due to inflammation in her lungs and a bacterial infection. Doctors could have saved her, but they were never consulted. Jessica’s parents are members of the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn in Fresno California, a church that believes in faith healing, not doctors. Jessica is the third child of her family to die young of illnesses without medical treatment. Tyler, 11, died from chronic diabetes, flu, and dehydration. Bradley, 12, died of pneumonia. Another member of the church died several years ago, which led to felony child abuse charges against the parents. Felony charges have been filed against Jessica’s parents who, if convicted, could serve 2-6 years in prison.2
Such needless deaths occur frequently and are only the tip of the iceberg. It is not just Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists who are needlessly dying because of false teaching on medical treatment. Besides children, many adults are led into the same fate or continue in untreated illnesses because they have bought into the false teachings of WOF movement. In fact, no one group endangers the health of more people than those Word-Faith teachers featured so prominently on Trinity Broadcasting Network. Moreover, many others have had their faith “shipwrecked” or have walked away from the Christian faith; either from too much guilt, or from believing that God doesn’t love them or care about them, or doesn’t even exist.
Research conducted by the Department of Pediatrics of the University of California that focused on the deaths of children due to religiously motivated neglect found that between 1975-1995 there were at least 172 children who died under exclusive “faith” healing. 140, or 81%, had a survival rate of 90% with proper medical care, and 18 more would have had a 50% survival rate.3
Religious exemption laws sometimes serve as a shield for those false teachers who abuse or lead adults to their deaths in this way. But it gets more complicated when it comes to the rights of children. The religious exemption laws that prohibit the states’ interference with peoples’ religious beliefs and practices, do not necessarily exempt parents from the responsibility of obtaining medical care if a child is seriously ill. The law can address and even prosecute those responsible for the abuse and harm of children who may not have a choice. But who is going to shine the light of truth on those heretical teachers who harmfully manipulate Scripture and people and dishonor Christ and His Church?
In this issue of Areopagus Journal (http://www.arcapologetics.org/areopagus.htm), I address the healing heresy in the article, “Are Christians Promised Perfect Health?” I explain the WOF doctrine of healing, demonstrating the heretical nature of it, and offer a biblical perspective on healing. I also attempt to separate the wheat from the chaff regarding the claim that there is healing in the atonement. To misunderstand this doctrine can have serious implications. Also, our colleague, pastor and apologist Keith Gibson (http://www.arcapologetics.org/gibson.htm), examines the claims of modern faith-healers with a special focus on one of the most popular, Benny Hinn, in his article, “Faith Healers or Fake Healers?”

[Night_Light]

Is It a Cult?
Whether the Word-Faith movement is a cult and whether its leaders are cult leaders is difficult to say. There are thorough and thoughtful critics who do not entirely agree. For example, Rob Bowman, a contributor in our previous issue, concluded in his excellent book, The Word-Faith Controversy, that, “[t]he Word-Faith movement should not be described as cultic.”5 Bowman points out that many or most people within the movement “do not believe the heretical or near heretical ideas espoused by the leaders.” He assesses some of the theology taught by its leaders to be “clearly teaching heresy” but that those teachings are “aberrant” and “suborthodox” in ways that are “difficult to easily classify.”6 Bowman points out that one can find (although not consistently) teachings from these leaders that are basically orthodox.7
But Tom Smail, Andrew Walker, and Nigel Wright, in their excellent book, The Love of Power or the Power of Love, arrive at a different position. They rhetorically ask, “Does it [their normative doctrine] deviate from the dogmatic core of the apostolic faith?” They conclude, “Regretfully we feel constrained to say it probably does.”8 They agree with Bowman that the majority of followers and even some of its teachers are “unwitting heretics,” but are nevertheless “functioning as heretics.”9 The authors offer another caveat by stating that they “have no idea whether acknowledged leaders like Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and Fred Price consciously deviate from orthodox Christianity.”10 But even so, they conclude that the teachings themselves are heretical.
We at the Apologetics Resource Center, after years of study and interaction with these people have come to agree with Smail, Walker and Wright. Whereas the health and wealth/positive confession teachings are at best half-truths and very harmful, their ventures into Christology, Anthropology, Theology (the study of the nature of God), and Pneumatology, are much more in line with the Gnostic strains of the mind-science cults like Christian Science, Unity, Science of the Mind, and even Mormonism, than historic, orthodox, biblical Christianity.
As for the leaders, it is our position that they do consciously and deliberately reject the truth on these issues since they have been repeatedly confronted and challenged on them. Yet they continue to defend their heretical positions and accuse their opponents (the orthodox) of teaching false doctrine. Speaking of the their orthodox opponents, they encourage their followers to “reject the factious [treat as outsiders, false teachers who divide] man after two warnings. . .” (Titus 3:9-11 (javascript:;)). For example, Gloria Copeland writes what we find in many of the materials of Word-Faith leaders and hear on TBN:
Seeds of doubt and unbelief have been sown by the traditions of men, by men who try to teach the Word with head knowledge instead of by His Spirit. God’s word does not make sense to the carnal mind. . . .Men in pulpits across our nation have preached things that simply are not true because they have no revelation knowledge of the Word .... I will not sit under any teacher or preacher who puts doubt and unbelief in my spirit.11
Not only are their teachings cultic, but their methodology also embraces cultic methods. For example, they claim a special authority which allows them to bring better and novel understanding. They divide Christians, they twist Scripture. They bring a mystical interpretation of the Bible—rhema or special spiritual illumination that is separate from ordinary logos knowledge derived from sound hermeneutics. This means that rhema or direct knowledge from God needs no Scriptural mediation or legitimation. Rhema is the governing principle for interpreting Scripture in their minds (or should I say “spirit”). And finally, they manipulate people through their stage histrionics and through the use of guilt and fear. In fact, they use intimidation against anyone who challenges their teaching: “Do not touch the Lord’s anointed one,” they say (1 Chron. 16:22 (javascript:;)). Yes, this verse too is taken out of context.

[truth_child]

i do not know of any of janes churches ariunbd here but there are plenty who teach word of faith. i know of one black church ( although they had a few whites ) who started off pretty good i never went but some of my famil did and then they got to tell them theyw ere to cut off all fellowsip with other peol and come hter only and not listen to no one but that pastor they had to raise so much money and they were not to do anything unless the pastor apporoved iit well my famiily left it and came backt o our church. there was a family who left alos and now they dont go anywhwere but their own house and others also left and on told us she felt freerer now than she had in years since sho got outof that mess

[Night_Light]

The terms “prosperity theology” or “health-and-wealth gospel” refer to a system of teaching made famous by a number of television preachers. Also known as the Word-Faith movement, its basic idea is that it is God’s will for all Christians to experience earthly prosperity. If one has adequate faith, so the argument goes, then the Lord will bless that person with good health and plenty of money. Specifically, if in faith one “sows” a financial gift to a Christian ministry, then that person is guaranteed to “reap” a hefty financial return for himself. If on the other hand one is suffering sickness or poverty, it is due to a failure of faith on that person’s part. Not surprisingly, this unbiblical (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=587#307) teaching has some Christians excitedly giving their money to ministries and others angrily up in arms, because it has to do with the very meaning of the gospel (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=1&page=43). It is a subject of great confusion in the church today.

[dsm]

I have seen this WOF stuff in several denominations, and I think it is probably more like a technique than a specific group because any church that starts using this logic is going to tend to start moving in the same porsperity-cult direction.

It naturally leads to people being afraid to stop spending money because their worthiness will be doubted, or being afraid to limit themselves if their health requires rest, and that is when the destructive cult stuff really kicks in. The openly cynical exploiters are the only ones who will rise to the leadership in that atmosphere because decent leaders will leave or be pushed out for trying to talk sense to their congregants.

[truth_child]

yes there a re a lot of them that teach the wealth doctrine which i dont accept or believe when i give i give what i can (after i pay my tithes ) and GOD ALWAYS blesses me HE give me what i need why ask for more i got what i need .

[Night_Light]

http://barcresearch.org/WORD%20FAITH.htm

There is a paradox in our social lives, we behold a consistent disintegration of our values, rights, and beliefs. Likewise, as we observe the spiritual landscape, we see similar erosions transpiring. One of the most subtle and insidious infestations to arise on the spiritual field, is the Word of Faith Movement (WOF).
The WOF spiritual lethality is found in its covert activity. The effectiveness of a predator is not only its teeth and claws, but the stealthy, subtle unobserved moves that positions it to strike its prey. The WOF has committed itself to change forever the face of Christianity within twenty years.
It has positioned itself in the high grass of the church environment, camouflaged itself, and moves unnoticed towards its prey. The WOF has struck and devoured thousands, and we haven't noticed the blood and bones scattered in the parking lot.
Many Pastors and born again believers don't recognize the dangers lurking within the WOF movement. I suppose, I more than anyone can attest to its subtlety, for 'I' fell prey to its errors. We at BARC will unravel the tangled knot of WOF teachings and provide a biblical response to its teachings in a well balanced fashion.
The most effective tactic in warfare is espionage. Military strategist gain enormous advantages when they plant spies, infiltrating an enemies organization. The counterfeit soldier must speak like, act like, look like the enemy, or his effectiveness is neutralized (2 Corinthians 11:4-14). In this sense, the WOF movement has performed its insurgence, and the church is being devoured from the inside out.
What makes the WOF so easily digested, is that its palatable. If its teachings were course, and its terminology and methodology foreign, we would sound the alarm and jump in our fox holes. Satan never unmasks and divergently announces his presence. Since that's true, how do we discern the markings and characteristics of WOF?

[truth_child]

yes the "promise of instant health " and the "promise of instant wealth" has become all the church people are interested. id rather have JESUS than wealth or fame

[Night_Light]

I would agree-"get rich quick" that is what motivates many...no matter who it hurts, some just want to reap the benefits of wealth at the expense of others and that includes many of these WOF types!

[Night_Light]

Here is link that sheds more light on the deception of the Word-Faith movement..

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html


there are so many who have found fault with this group-that is a great confirmation for those who have wondered if this was a cult and/or scam..

[truth_child]

yes you know the get rich themes have invaded most all of the churches. especially the pentecostals of which i am a part. but it is bad to see it happening. i think ( see if you agree) the reason so many fall for this stuff is that most pentecostal started out poor as church mouses and they want a get rich quick way

[Night_Light]

You may have a point there TC. But human nature is very greedy and I think messages that come forth out of these WOF groups feed on that greed and desire for more, more, MORE!!!! It just seems so strange that these leaders see nothing wrong with what they teach as Jesus certainly had no desire for material things and never asked for offerings and riches. It is all just such a farse and a way to scam people out of money for health and promises of prosperity in general.

[truth_child]

yes it seems that the more they get the more they want. i have heard some on there say give a hundred (or what ever ammount , always a big ammount ) and GOD WILL bless you. well you know i pay my tithes ( which some dont believe ini know ) and i give offering sto my church and if i have anything left i give it to whoever i hear GOD speaking to me about and i am blessed. i feel that GOD will bless you if you are faithful to HIM regardless of what man tells you to give

[Night_Light]

We should always be individuals and not feel pressure or DECEIVED into giving because of the promise of health and wealth. Giving a tithe or support to a good and honest church or other group is fine-churches often come to aide of others in crisis and need the proper funds for food pantries and shelters etc.. But if my mortgage is due and the evangelist is asking for my money ...and telling me I will be blessed if I give it to him-well I will pay my bills first!! That is COMMON sense.



Yes, you are so right on when you say they ask for big amounts and we know why-it fuels their planes and keeps their wives in Chanel Couture... :cool:

[truth_child]

yes that is right

[Night_Light]

http://www.sram.org/0802/faith-healing.html

[truth_child]

went and read it i dont follow any kind of other religious things such as the religions of these forgein gods. so i keep myself far away from that

[Night_Light]

very good...just make sure if someone you know is following down this path you are knowledgeable of the teachings, so you can help them. It is important to be well studied whe it comes to cults, false teachings and modern day charlatans.

[truth_child]

yes that is why i studied their belifs written by them selfs if i cna find the or i will question them their selves
one needs to knoe what he is talking about when dealin with cults

[Night_Light]

That is true!!! Stay well studied and grounded in wisdom and knowledge of God -it will keep you from harm and help you to discern when there is a false teaching coming out from the tv, cd players, books or pulpits. It is much easier to get pulled into these teaching today because of all the technology they use....

[Night_Light]

TC, are you able to explain the difference if any, between charismatic and pentecostal...Do you see much of the prayer only or positive confession teachings being taught in pentecostal churches other than your own?

[truth_child]

the charismatics as i see them teach that you just get up and dance (without the moving of THE SPIRIT OF GOD ) or that you are taught to speak in tongues ( the unknown tongue as most call it ) anytime they want. and they talk money money money all the time and do not say that it is JESUS PLUS NOTHING FOR SALVATION
the pentecostals believe that one has to be saved by beleiving on THE LORD JESUS AND ACCEPTING HIM INTO their heart as SAVIOR. they wait for THE MOVING OF THE HOLY GHOST ON them IN ORFER TO WORK ANY OF THE GIFTS or to shout or dance or what ever

[Night_Light]

Thank you for explaining that as many think the two are the same. I thought it would be good if you distinguished between the them.

I saw much of what you said to be true in many charismatic churches I visited-kind of a free for all and no real structure. I am sure it is very hard for some charismatics to behave themselves outside of their own group. They must get a staring eye when they start to just dance, speak in tongues and prophecy without receiving permission first.

I saw this happen once when I attended an Assemblies of God church for a few years they sing and raise their hands but they just didn't just dance in the aisles and start speaking out loud tongues without an interpretation and no talk of money, I had a pastor once who could really speak on nothing else but money.

[truth_child]

yes there are many who do

[Night_Light]

What can also be very disturbing about WOF is many of the staged healings. We have heard about people being paid to fake healings, they are contacted ahead of TV programs or revivals and chosen out of the crowd to come up and testify as to being healed. I think Mario Marillo and even Benny Hinn have been guilty of such things..There was a man's "testimony" I have read recently on the internet who had done the same thing-pretended to have an ill loved one, then a few weeks later claimed healing but there was never a loved one who was ill..very strange indeed and all so that the lie they live will not be found out by others..

[truth_child]

i heard that jim jones did the staged healings and that is wrong for anyone to do. if GOD heals tell it loud and clear ( the one who got healed, not the preacher who did the praying) and let the world know that GOD is still GOD

[Night_Light]

Also known as "Name-in-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Word of Faith," etc.
Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/p00.html#pentecostalism). It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. Their undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m00.html#mysticism), dualism, and gnosticism (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/g00.html#gnosticism) that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m00.html#meta) cults. The Word-Faith movement may be the most dangerous false system that has grown out of the charismatic (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c48.html) movement so far, because so many charismatics are unsure of the finality of Scripture
John MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos, p. 290

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Quoting: "Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism."
End quote.

May I laugh at that ignorant statement? hehehehehehehe

[truth_child]

no the word of faith movement is NOT apart of or didnt receive their teachings from pentecostals

[Night_Light]

ATM...Please study up on the dangerous message of Word-Faith. Though you may find for yourself error in the pentecostal church ,you will find even more in the WOF teachings( it's more than just tongues, rapture and casting out demons). They have been at the center of controversy since their conception. basically they are motivational speakers with a goal of fattening their pockets at the expense of the congregation. Teaching that one who is poor is not blessed and that those who are sick are somehow full of unbelief and sin and that you can speak anything into existence.

I am ashamed to say, I once was part of this horrendous group...who have been nothing but an embarrassment to the community that calls themselves Christian.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

ATM...Please study up on the dangerous message of Word-Faith. Though you may find for yourself error in the pentecostal church ,you will find even more in the WOF teachings( it's more than just tongues, rapture and casting out demons). They have been at the center of controversy since their conception. basically they are motivational speakers with a goal of fattening their pockets at the expense of the congregation. Teaching that one who is poor is not blessed and that those who are sick are somehow full of unbelief and sin and that you can speak anything into existence.

I am ashamed to say, I once was part of this horrendous group...who have been nothing but an embarrassment to the community that calls themselves Christian.

My dear friend, WOF came from the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism period. All of the cult of pentecostalism relies exclusively on sensationalism to line their pockets. The pedophile, Charles Fox Parham inventor of that religion, writting in his Sept 1906 Apostolic Faith newspaper stated that the altar of pentecostalism was awash in the occult. None of the cult of pentecostalism has ever refused an audience to Jim Jones, Aimee Semple Mcphearson, Kathryn Kulhman, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Jay Bakker, Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts (sr & jr), Peter Popoff, Td Jakes . . . and the list goes on and on. The John MacArthur, I am familiar with, is a graduate of Bob Jones University. Most would consider Bob Jones U more aberrant than pentecostalism. I simply do not give any credit to the speaker of your quote or his opinion.

[Night_Light]

Well..I guess I have to take what I can-I can see some similarities in their message ..and I will just be grateful you agree that WOF is dangerous and a cult....

Good Day...

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Night Light:

I have studied and ministered to those caught-up in the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism for twenty-plus-years now. I have read every one of their history books and compared every doctrinal statement to the Bible. I have been a little deeper than just the catch phrases of this religion.

I, pardon my bluntness, believe you are seeking revenge, not enlightenment. Perhaps, you need to seek some professional counseling.

[Night_Light]

Well you are entitled to your opinion just as well as I am. That is the beauty of independence....

Here is the rest of that link..A very interesting and enlightening read.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf

[truth_child]

night light i dont think you need counseling. what about the one who is always giggling (hehehe ) dont you feel that shows a sign of mental illness? i do i think taht if any needs it they do. i for one understand what you are talking about and where you are coming from and i agree that wof teaching is way off. you knw there are many other religions that have teachings that are off base such as the baptist one beleives this and another that one is once saved always saved another doesnt beleive that some have tongeus in tham another doesnt some accept all kinds of music another doesnt. the methodist ,the nazarenes, the catholic church has differnt faction even in the church that believe different things, the interdenomanational belive just do what you think. so why does one just pick on the pentecostals saying they ahvae studied it and are helping to put it down and stamp it out . this person doesnt say nor wil, they say that they are saved nor what church they belong to not where the got their " doctorate " if any, they are always talking about one who they say started pentecostals ( which is not true ) when the dont realize that GOD HIMSELF started the pentecostal movement when HE started the church.

[Night_Light]

http://churchwarnings.blogspot.com/2008/04/false-healing-revival-florida-andrew.html



here is a link discussing some of the strange and yet widely used practices within the church today.

[truth_child]

i had not heard of the man till i read this. but it seems tha the manifestation exhibted there are NOT OF GOD . i dont go for the "cold reading " nor for the barking and the uncontrloable jerking that they do in the brownvile revival either this shames true pentecostal beliefs

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

i had not heard of the man till i read this. but it seems tha the manifestation exhibted there are NOT OF GOD . i dont go for the "cold reading " nor for the barking and the uncontrloable jerking that they do in the brownvile revival either this shames true pentecostal beliefs

As I recall, Mr. Arron, Brownsville revival took place in an Assembly of God church. Are you suggesting the Assembly of God is not pentecostal?

[Night_Light]

TC, one thing is for sure, if we have been affected by a cult such as someone like myself who grew up under the WOF teachings, we really have an obligation to speak out and to present information that will help others see some truth in the misguidence of these teachings..Pushing things under the rug never helps anyone heal emotionally and it causes false hope to prevail.

I was out of the country when the Brownville revival took place we have a HUGE Assemblies of God church here and in fact they were really a pretty stable place of worship until Brownville took place and they had that"revival" in their church-they lost a lot of respect in the community but have since been gaing their reputation as the years have passed-many places of worship experience ups and downs. I do consider them to be pentecostal but as we both know any church can fall into problems when they allow "certain" ministers to speak in their church, it can happen anywhere. And the topic here isn't is pentecostal a cult, it is, is WOF a farse and yes it is...as far as I am concerned they may have some similarities as most churches and I will go as far to say religions do. Dancing, tongues and rapture has never killed anyone but telling others they can speak things into exisitance INCLUDING healing has hurt many!

[truth_child]

night light ive never been in a cult so i really dont have the experiance of one. i thank GOD THAT HE HAS KEPT me safe from that
some of the fringe ones who are not really of the pentecostal faith get into all sorts of things . this new bunch that get on tv and equate money giving with salvation for instance is not of the pentecostal faith... there are those who are of the pentecostal faith such as church OF GOD , church OF GOD OF THE PROPHECY , the assemblies OF GOD the pentecostal holiness church who are truly pentecostal. they may have some in them as do all churches who get out of line but mainly these remain true to the pentecostal beliefs wof is not and never has been a part of pentecostalism

[Night_Light]

here is an interesting link I found today..I am not sure about all of it but some of the facts are good-it is long so it may take some time to study...

http://barcresearch.org/WORD%20FAITH.htm

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

night light ive never been in a cult so i really dont have the experiance of one. i thank GOD THAT HE HAS KEPT me safe from that
some of the fringe ones who are not really of the pentecostal faith get into all sorts of things . this new bunch that get on tv and equate money giving with salvation for instance is not of the pentecostal faith... there are those who are of the pentecostal faith such as church OF GOD , church OF GOD OF THE PROPHECY , the assemblies OF GOD the pentecostal holiness church who are truly pentecostal. they may have some in them as do all churches who get out of line but mainly these remain true to the pentecostal beliefs wof is not and never has been a part of pentecostalism

Mr. Arron, you are in a cult now. Again I ask, simply, is the Assembly of God pentecostal?

[truth_child]

i agree with some of what i read the pentecostal church itself has never been a part of the wof. we are not charismatic, we are not world assembly , oneness or any of the ones associated with the wof

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Arron, all of the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism is chaismatic. Now answer my question, Is the Assembly of God pentecostal? Yes or No will do.

[truth_child]

yes the assembies of GOD are pentecostal there are those in it as im sure you are getting ready to say, who are just for maoney and are not really of the pentecostal faith nor of the assemblies either as they have left them in favor of their own groups who raise money money money

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Arron, all of your religion is charismatic, including your own church. The problems with WOF is just as pervasive in your own church, as it is tthrough out pentecostalism.

[truth_child]

tatm why i ask agian are you so dead set against pentecostals? who in your family was hurt by someone who got out of control or else told you the truth that you want accept?

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Arron, I have answered that question hundreds of thousands of times already. The answer has always and will always be the same, God.

[Night_Light]

Let's keep this on track-shall we as we look at some of the dangerous WOF teachings and how they are intertwined to various other cults..

There are many groups who refuse medical attention for themselves and their children-Jehovah's Witness believe having a blood transfusion will result in the loss of their salvation(let me just laugh at that a minute hahahahaha) The FLDS think the outside world is awful and evil and usually treat any illness and even birthing in house. Christian Science- forget it, as they do not allow medical intervention of any kind and the Scientolgists believe in mind over matter..

As far as WOF goes-it isn't they refuse-they just like to instill in their followers that going to a doctor isn't necessary-and a lack of faith which is a result of sin..just a different sin on an age, old barbaric doctrine...

I find it is interesting, how medicine and science often scare the religious community. It is a cycle that reoccurs through history..

[truth_child]

night light i agree we were talking about wof and its teachings. they are difinatly a cult. and should be avoided.
tatam you have answered nothing at anytime except to say that pentecost is wrong. you dont tell what you belong to annd jsut say it doesnt matter and who you got your teachings from just saying it doesnt matter or why you are so against the pentecostal church i mean the real reason and not just because you are.

[Night_Light]

Yes they should be avoided! The sad thing is that there are people who raise their children up under these teachings:eek:. But there is hope. I have met many people now my age, who grew up-got wise and realized WOF would be a huge laughing matter if it wasn't so dangerous. I have great conversations with others who also see the foolishness and circus tactics of this group. Pushing people back and calling it slain in the spirit, staged healings and stealing from the elderly etc...


I won't put down those who are stuck in this mess, some are bright, brillant and educated people as were my family members. It is all about how you get recruited intyo christianity-it is rare that you see someone who has STRONG roots in other denominations get lured into this scam. It is ussally those new in the christian faith, who are hungry and looking for more scripture to grow on ...the ministers and their wives seem nice and normal and they are for the most part very moral(like Mormons)-their services are lively and their churches are modern..THEY JUST TEACH....

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Let's keep this on track-shall we as we look at some of the dangerous WOF teachings and how they are intertwined to various other cults..

There are many groups who refuse medical attention for themselves and their children-Jehovah's Witness believe having a blood transfusion will result in the loss of their salvation(let me just laugh at that a minute hahahahaha) The FLDS think the outside world is awful and evil and usually treat any illness and even birthing in house. Christian Science- forget it, as they do not allow medical intervention of any kind and the Scientolgists believe in mind over matter..

As far as WOF goes-it isn't they refuse-they just like to instill in their followers that going to a doctor isn't necessary-and a lack of faith which is a result of sin..just a different sin on an age, old barbaric doctrine...

I find it is interesting, how medicine and science often scare the religious community. It is a cycle that reoccurs through history..

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Your statement against the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is simply false. The remainder of your post is purely strawman building.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Yes they should be avoided! The sad thing is that there are people who raise their children up under these teachings:eek:. But there is hope. I have met many people now my age, who grew up-got wise and realized WOF would be a huge laughing matter if it wasn't so dangerous. I have great conversations with others who also see the foolishness and circus tactics of this group. Pushing people back and calling it slain in the spirit, staged healings and stealing from the elderly etc...


I won't put down those who are stuck in this mess, some are bright, brillant and educated people as were my family members. It is all about how you get recruited intyo christianity-it is rare that you see someone who has STRONG roots in other denominations get lured into this scam. It is ussally those new in the christian faith, who are hungry and looking for more scripture to grow on ...the ministers and their wives seem nice and normal and they are for the most part very moral(like Mormons)-their services are lively and their churches are modern..THEY JUST TEACH....


Again, you build strawmen. As to raising children, most would rather have their children raised in a loving enviroment, not the venomious hatred you display.

[Night_Light]

Oops..I apologize in that post ATM quoted me on-I wrote THEY TEACH and I meant THEY (WOF ministers)TEACH Fables.. Here is an interesting little piece on giving to ministers who are less then honorable.



http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/offerings-to-false-gods/

[Night_Light]

TC-you bring up an AWESOME point..that is what happens to many people who come out of cults-they get hurt, discouraged and they get the wrong idea about faith and God. Some turn to drugs, alcohol or other vices. They have to learn how to live all over again, especially the young ones(teens in particular).

These folks need LOTS of love an tender patience and the cult leaders teachings need to be brought out into the spotlight and condemned


TC said , "like i said earlier i havent heard from that cult wof in a long time but they are still going strong and have many following the teachings of it. i knowof one man who was involved in a cult of that same sort and they put him out and now he doesnt go anywhere you cant get him in church at all it totally ruined his life and the lives of those who he still leads. they all just sit at home".

[Night_Light]

Thank you so much for the informative PM..I figured that might be what was going on, I dealt with it elsewhere on another board. And actually I haven't followed that particular poster in quite some time, and I haven't been to either board for about 2 months- I learned when it was time to let go. So for one to draw conclusions that I was speaking of them makes me feel very sorry for their paranoid state of mind, which is very understandable on the internet. I have absolutely no interest in speaking about their life as I I am unaware of any of the details and NONE of the stories related here have anything to do with them. Hopefully that will fan the flames and stop the gossip and false accusations on that particular subject.

Always be very aware there are 2 sides to each story-if I feel the need to express mine I will do so but personal quarrels are no longer something I will engage in as they serve no purpose here.

[truth_child]

i have heard of and met poeple who were in volvled in a cult like the wof and they when they got out said they were free for the first time in along time. thank GOD for those who get out of a cult.

[Night_Light]

So have I and what a great sight to see people living in peace and no longer concerned about getting ill or not being blessed because they changed their beliefs. We know life is full of pain and sorrow no matter who we are and it isnt because we are sinful. I had someone on here once tell me I was responsible for my loved ones illness and that my father was as well because of our unbelief but we really believed for awhile and then when it hits you, you realize what a joke it all was and you realize that ignorance can cause you pain. We grow through our experiences.

I am thinking this evening about Steven Curtis Chapman what a neat, loving individual you may be familiar with his music TC as he is a famous Christian singer( Saddle up Your Horses, I will be There), he and his wife have a great family and today, on accident his teenage son ran over his precious 5 year old adopted daughter died. He had just finished doing and album and a book called daddy and Cinderella dedicated to that sweet girl and she passed away today-how ironic, how inconceivable and yet none of us is beyond pain and testing. I do not believe it was because he was out of the will of the Lord or because of sin in his life, I believe accidents happen and children may be with us for a short while but their life has purpose and God had a plan, even if it is an early death-what glory may come from this we do not know-death is not the end. We must pray for this family as believers in God´s strength, was it his will, was it his plan? I do not know for none of us can pretend to be little God´s and have all the answers.

[truth_child]

nightlight today is the anniversary of my wife and i wedding aniveersary. she has passedaway but i still rmemeber and take her flowers or a card.

[Night_Light]

I know those anniversaries can be hard TC, even after time has passed by, they say the years heal the wounds but there is still hardship in dealing with loss, one may never get over it.

Your wife must have been very proud of you! What a wonderful example you have been of your faith, a very straight forward, no game playing type of guy. You never come across as a braggart or a fool a joker or a game player. Continue to keep your virtue and your integrity. One day you will be united with your wife in a world where pain and sorrow no longer exist.

A little verse from a song I wrote about 15 years ago when I was still singing Christian music says
Keep on lovin' when you feel lonely
Keep on hoping when you feel down.
When you feel like giving up His love can be found...

That may touch your heart as you think of your wife-you are never alone.

[truth_child]

Thanks , It Did I Appreciate That So Much

[turtle]

Aaron,
Tell your wife you got a sister in Christ praying for you. She knows how hard it is out there. Getting caught in a crazy world is no fun, but with Christian friends all around surrounding us and praying who can argue with God's people and win.

sis turtle

[turtle]

Aaron,

Do you know what got me out of my fog recently, Not all the people around me though it was a plus, but the love of Jesus. The minister began to quote scripture. It did not matter the scripture, it just had to be familiar to me. God speaking to me through his word. That is what brings life back into our love one's. So when the dead in Christ shall rise up it will be because of the spoken word of God. How sweet. Remember the love and remember you see her.

turtle

[truth_child]

turtle it would be a little hard for me to tell my wife as she passedaway 10 years ago this past feb
i do thank you for writting to me (i had written on another post stating that i knew you would not answer but now i see you did so im sorry for that excuse that please ok?
yes THE LOVE OF JESUS will always bring us through

[turtle]

turtle it would be a little hard for me to tell my wife as she passedaway 10 years ago this past feb
i do thank you for writting to me (i had written on another post stating that i knew you would not answer but now i see you did so im sorry for that excuse that please ok?
yes THE LOVE OF JESUS will always bring us through

You know as well as i do that as Christians that we still miss our love ones. I once in a while say Lord please tell so and so hello. But you know Aaron, does he I have no clue. I am sorry i used bad taste with my words. I seem to do so a lot lately. I stay in the doghouse. I just want you to know I know you can not physically talk to her or spiritually but we know the one that can. I know weird. It helps my heart sometimes. So forgive me if I offended you in anyway.

[truth_child]

you did
not offend me in any way. turtle and yes you do know me im arron the one you used to t alk to so much on here long ago remember?
we havent talked for a while well im still here still pentecostal and going on for GOD

[turtle]

Arron I have been in a very deep fog. A deep deep fog. A deep fog, only way to escape is with the word of God. I felt dead and yet i was alive. My sorrow is about gone.

[truth_child]

turtle, im sorry i dont understand what you are talking about. GOD can and will and has helped you and remember HE will help you in every situation im praying for you

[turtle]

Arron,

Do not worry, it is not meant for you to understand necessarily, what you need to know I am back running harder then ever before for Jesus. Jesus the way the truth and the Life. I had been attacked by the enemy and Christ won.

[truth_child]

turtle im so glad that GOD brought you out and helped you. and im glad you are back on here . did you read my post on trees in the bible (i think that is where ) about the ark of the covenant ? do you think that perhaps THE ARK IN HEAVEN is THER ONE GOD MADE and not the one moses made for the bible tells us that moses made the things according to the pattern that GOD had shown him. what do you think?

[turtle]

turtle im so glad that GOD brought you out and helped you. and im glad you are back on here . did you read my post on trees in the bible (i think that is where ) about the ark of the covenant ? do you think that perhaps THE ARK IN HEAVEN is THER ONE GOD MADE and not the one moses made for the bible tells us that moses made the things according to the pattern that GOD had shown him. what do you think?

Aaron,
Let's keep this discussion in one place okay. It it bad enough and hard enough to follow trails I personally leave. But realize this I never really wanted to be caught, I just wanted a simple answer I really never got til i stopped posting. And boy it was a doozy of an answer. Men ministers. Love or leave them. At least they are consistent. How do you like running the whole show by yourself. Does it suit you well.

turtle

[truth_child]

ok turtle i will keep it in one place ( or try to ) i dont run a show by my self for i beleive in women ministers i dont know what you menat by getting caught so i will leave that. im glad you got your answer what ever it was and no it doesnt suit me to urn a show by myself for i need help too just like all of us do. im sorry

[Night_Light]

Yes speaking to the dead is a very strange thing to be talking about here-but no more strange then Kenneth Copeland telling his listeners they can manifest the spirit of Jesus and he will walk down the aisle of your church..

Some of the things being taught in these WOF churches are just plain WIERD!:eek:

[turtle]

Night Light now that is funny, I had not related it to that but yes you would be correct. You know churches that claim not to ask for money ask for money and those that don't are the one's that often get blamed.

Now that is weirder.
turtle

[truth_child]

night light i think that the "public" appearances " OF JESUS in these protestant churches ( some do claim it ) are just like the "appearances of mary in the catholic church .. i hate to say it and i want to be careful but it could be demonic. benny hinn claimed tha JESUS would show up and make a public appearance in one of his services. it never happened. i have also heard that he goes and meditates at the grave of a woman preacher he likes i forget her name
all though i go and grieve at my wifes grave and say that i love her i know im not talking to her for she is at rest in glory with THE LORD

[Night_Light]

Exactly.I understand where you are coming from(even if you aren't a Greek scholar);)

these men do give a bad name to the true christian message which is to do as Christ instructed -doing unto the least of these. Wonderful folks like James Robinson and Franklin Graham-good people who share love and finance with the poor and helpless. Then switch the station and you have Rob Parsley telling people God will bless their seed(whatever the heck that means-SCers would say sperm) if they give to his ministry...Oh the games people play and it becomes the norm for them - to put their treasure in earthly things....it is called GREED

[turtle]

Ding! Ding! Bingo we got a winner. Good job Night light.

[Night_Light]

Why thank you Turtle-even I need a pat on the back here and there!

I will tell you what this set this off-I was watching James Robinson today as he was in Sudan and other African areas helping the poor and starving children(some dying in his midst).Then I turned the station and their was that character Rob or Rod Parsley asking people to sew a seed in his ministry and they would be blessed and all that typical WOF stuff..and I then got what you meant about good ministries being overshadowed by the bad ones...shameful

[truth_child]

i think it is wonderful to be helping children any where that are in need we do have a lot here in the u.s. that need our help though and we should help our own before we send help to others who will probally grow up to fight against democarcy

[turtle]

No matter the group Christian or otherwise, we need to examine what the help is and if they are helping. This should be a normal practice anyway. Personally I seldom look at TV preachers, I have my reason. Yet there are some I do look at. I have notice a real change in the way ministers are talking these days, but is it real change or camoflauge. I hope real change, because then God is backing it will bare positive healthy fruit.

[truth_child]

night light i personally dont give to "soup kitchens " for i have seen and know many who go to them and eat then use their money to get drunk on or to dope on. if i see someone in need i try to helpt them i neither help these on the side of the road begging for money either i use common sense and help those who need it not those who are just too lazy to work

[Night_Light]

TC, I understand what you are saying-it is very important to know the ins and outs of a charity before giving. Just like everything, you must use common sense and these days there are many scams in the name of charity-this happens when a terrible event takes place like Katrina or a Tsunami and then false charities are set up.

I still believe their are great causes out there we can support and for the most part peoples hearts are in the right place but there are always those who will take advantage of soft hearts when they can.

[truth_child]

it is good to help people , if they need it, like their ouse burning, or a storm come and do something to them , you know that sort of thing but just to help the drinks who ues their (mostly ss checks or welfare checks) to buy drugs or dope and are too lazy to work NO let them do with out then they will ahve to go to work like a woman that has a child out of wedlock yes i can see haveing one being a mistake but then haveing another and another.. no way put them to work and dnot give them a check or else jsut take the children from them that may be cruel but tha is how i feel

[turtle]

I think what needs to happen is a different in educating those that continue to have babies for welfare checks. I had to use welfare at one time and it is a humbling experience. I thank God He has been providing our needs the last several years, but it is a hard pill to swallow if you ever had to stand in line. To feel the humiliation of having to and some workers treating you badly. My first worker was a gem among workers. but not all are that way. I am glad I do not need that type of assistance today.

The problem is unwed teens need education so do adults that are continuing on welfare for other reason then disability. And those on disability need not to be punished for any extra income they might be able to make. These people are at the proverty level. If they can make an extra buck occasionally it takes care of emergencies in their lives and keeps them from having to borrow money. When one starts borrowing and you are on disability there is no way out, but lenders know this and are willing to help those that need the extra credit. See that makes them special. They however do not lend to those who borrow with no intent to repay. They often work with people as well to help them keep a balance, and sometimes even cushion them from falling. Creditors know how to help. Yet they often get a bad rap just like people on welfare.

What needs to be established is a test to see the skill level of understanding of people on welfare situation. Then measure can be taken to help them become active and working citizens going in the right direction. Some creditors are trying to do this very thing. like crown.org who I never heard of til the other day. I am sure there are others as well. but the word got to be gotten out and the material in the right places.

We send people to third world countires to teach people how to care for their kids. and yet we think because people are poor in our own country we need to knock them down. Of course this is only an opinion that seems to possibly be changing. See alot happened even in the last six months to make changes. I see a lot of positive things happening. It takes time to make changes.

It is like policies in our government often does not filter til a president leaves offfice. And guess what the next president gets the glory. Strange world isn't it. To much red tape takes time. Yet with other groups helping til change can take place it makes the world better. All working hand and hand across our nation and around the world.

[truth_child]

night light.. i did not mean to infer that welfare was not good. it is for people who need it but those who just have babies by the dozens just to get a check and have a man somewhere who want work but is able to father children NO WAY. yes it is a humbling experance to ahev to wait in line for food stamps or welfare assistance. but if it is needed then so be it

[Night_Light]

I understand ...I think what you were referring to as well as false ministries that do not use the money for chariy but use it for their own self-gain.

Have a beautiful day..

[truth_child]

mostly im referring to those who just "take " christian ministeries for what thye can get from them and just go right on not coming to church not living for JESUS and just living off the church while they are still dopeing and drinking and whoreing around

[Night_Light]

ah ha...I see then so you feel there are many who come to church put on a show and then live a different life outside.

There are ministers who do the same thing!

[Night_Light]

TAKING FAITH HEALING TOO FAR

A faith healer asked Moshe how his family was getting along. "They're all fine," Moshe said, "Except my uncle. He's very sick."

"Your uncle is not sick," the faith healer said. "He THINKS he's sick."

Two weeks later, the faith healer ran into Moshe on the street. "How is your uncle getting along?" he asked.

Moshe shrugged, "He THINKS he's dead."

[truth_child]

that was pretty good nightlight.
yes there are ministers who preach "what the people " want to hear they tickle their ears so to speak. may our pastor never be guilty of that,
you know it take preaching the true word of GOD to get people right on the way to salvation and to get them saved. that is what we need to do

[truth_child]

oh yes i was jsut talking to alady on the phone who had called for prayer, she said she wanted to see GOD move as HE one time did. she told of a sister who had cancer and she said she didnt knowif she knew about healing or even beleived in ti i told her that didnt matter GOD can and does heal she said perhaps it was just their time to go and i agreed we dont know when or how GOD is going to take us home.

[turtle]

Some ministers go over the limit, I do not think they are the type of ministers that are on the road to heavenly place, but who am I to judge. I think one needs to be aware of the devil and call his bluff. And if you call his bluff be ready to die for it. Job of a minister is to preach the word and not worry who hears it, yet we do worry about our next steps sometimes. We are only human after all. Devil wants to play I guarantee God will knock him down and destroy him. God send his people to watch so they will learn a lesson as well. Dont' steal from his kids and do not tie a mill stone around the neck of his children but love his kids as He loves each and everyone of his kids including us.

[Night_Light]

"You say who am I to judge" Turtle

Well you are obviously a child of God-who need to test which groups are legit and which ones are not and those that are not realy shouldn't get away with it.

When people die or lose money because of a ministry then you must examine their teachings and figure out why-it wasn't because the one following was an idiot -con men have been around for years and some great folks have fallen for their schemes...

buyer beware

[truth_child]

yes i really feel that any christian knows when a false doctrine is preached or whne some one is ttrying to rip them off. i mean duch as terll me i cant take my child who i love with all my heart to a doctor

[turtle]

"You say who am I to judge" Turtle

Well you are obviously a child of God-who need to test which groups are legit and which ones are not and those that are not realy shouldn't get away with it.

When people die or lose money because of a ministry then you must examine their teachings and figure out why-it wasn't because the one following was an idiot -con men have been around for years and some great folks have fallen for their schemes...

buyer beware


This is truth exposing falseness usually also that his guy is a con from way back. He probably done it, but is slipper then most snakes. But to catch a snake before he gets to the people is what we need to do. Yet we often fail at it. It amazing where they get some of their best training from. Something is wrong, some groups need ministers in place to protect them from these idiots. Yet they kick them out when they become a minister. Go figure that one out. That is the time you need you brothers and sisters when you go into ministry. They should have your back. Yet I know that often time it is not so. The devil is often behind you, but God ready to kick but when the devil tries to take charge.

If you are a child of God then you do not have to fear about being consumed by the enemy, you just need to resist him. See God is in controll and He loves his children. He will take and whip the devil behind, anytime he tries and hurts his kids.

[turtle]

P.S. A difference in sounding an alarm and putting someone behind bars. It means people have to check things out. Often the alarm is not the one that has all the info. And I dare say maybe none of it. How I landed up here only God knows in his infinite wisdom. I can say I am proud to be a Child of God and I can not take credit for what God does.

[Night_Light]

"The Word-Faith Teachers. This is the group that would seek to convince us that Jesus and His disciples were rich, that to be poor is a sin, to be sick is a sin, and that faith is a creative force that we can use to shape our world just like God supposedly created this world and universe that we live in through His "faith"!
Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, John Avanzini, Robert Tilton, Fred Price, and Benny Hinn (who at the time of this writing has authored the number one best selling Christian book in America, "Good Morning, Holy Spirit") are just a few that spew out this theological vomit".
RVincent

[turtle]

Aware of what they teach or at least some, I am not crazy about some of these.

[truth_child]

word of faith ministers seem to rely on calim it and get it more than they do GOD it only takes a small amount of faith to move "mountians"

[Night_Light]

What these guys seem most interested in is material gain-it is what makes them the happiest-when you listen to a teacher you can get a pretty good idea of where their heart and minds are at..

I posted this earlier on a pentacostal thread to that coward TATM, I'll post here as well..of course you know what his reponse was."hehehehehe"(yes that is what he had to say-call it fraud speak)


"I agree with your assessment. Those who seek faith/fake healing and do not receive it normally turn against God. Ms. Night_Light uses her vengence to attack those who practice faith/faked healing. You can go to some of her post and read the sheer hatred she has" TATM




Yes you are all welcome to go and read a few threads I started one called word of faith deadly message and another one I posted on called refusing medical attention-there is no hatred in those messages only the truth about how the word of faith ministers cheat and lie -fill their pockets with money and stories of those who trusted these teachers, studied the word with them and were decieved very early on in their faith..You see TATM came on a few times and tried to relate pentacostalism to Word/faith-the fact I did not fall for it-upset him(. I know the difference between the two-as I myself grew up in a word/faith church/home and school) and lost a parent to their cancer because of their positive confession teachings they ingrained in her head when she first accepted Christ as he Lord and saviour -(he has no experience in the word/faith field he just happened to get an email that tipped him off to my cause and he thought he would try to shut me up as well- he spreads lies and believes them-go figure)

I can rest assured most people on this board-know of your character TATM. TATM calls what he does ministering to pentecostals and yet his vicious and outragous lies towards these people is anything but ministering -it is hateful, redundant and does nothing to save lives. Discussing the WOrd/ Faith issues will save lives. Benny Hinn, Copeland, Price and Capps, Tilton, Roberts and many more- are all men who have used trickeries to line their pockets with money. If that is a vicious thing to say so be it-they are even more viscious and more accountable for those who have died, gone in debt or been the one to watch a loved one die in their arms.. believeing in speaking tongues, dancing in the spirit and rapture have never killed anybody-it is the litle gods theory, name it and claim it, give to my ministry and you will blessed crap that has REALLY hurt people. Get it right TATM and start doing something that can help people in cults like WOF/WOFF. Christian Science..etc-instead of harrASSing the pentacostals on this board.

[truth_child]

amen and amne night light

[debbie60477]

Interesting link on faith healing/revival/word of faith....

http://www.adventuresinchristianity.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=3494

[Night_Light]

Thank you for posting that!!!

[turtle]

Oh Nightlight, I am fully out of the fog and ready to fight now. Lets kick some behinds!!! Oh boy I have gone mad. You can not fight personal battle, a world batttle and a family battle all at the same time with out the Lord in front and back and inside. Plus dozen of people praying. Praying around the clock. Wow.

[truth_child]

turtle i am surprised that you would put it that way like kicking ........ that is not good to do so
yes we all should pray all the time and we can even when we are working we can praying so keep praying

[turtle]

turtle i am surprised that you would put it that way like kicking ........ that is not good to do so
yes we all should pray all the time and we can even when we are working we can praying so keep praying

Forgive my language but I thought I had joined the marines, boy my mistake. Forgive me, for my rude language this morning. But yes we need to keep praying. Praying harder then ever. My prayer is those walls come tumbling down. And the mountain will be removed or remained and a way over will be made.

[Night_Light]

A very good point was once brought again to my atention..Those in the wof ministry are often left to take the blame if they do not get the healing they prayed and believed for....what a vicious teaching and the pressure that puts on folks to be perfect is unbelievable...R

[turtle]

A very good point was once brought again to my atention..Those in the wof ministry are often left to take the blame if they do not get the healing they prayed and believed for....what a vicious teaching and the pressure that puts on folks to be perfect is unbelievable...R

No one is perfect, but God is and so are his ways, yet often time people fail to see this, because they want what they want now. And then to top things they want things to be perfect in every area. God has to work out things in the life of everyone and often it just not instant. We must wait on the Lord. Do what we know to do and wait. When God begins to move we need to be in tuned to his ways and be in prayer and we will see mountains moved. You can not force people to be like you or force people to believe like you.

[Night_Light]

You can not force people to be like you or force people to believe like you..T


I give humans more credit than that-I think they know when they are being duped by a preacher these days- as many of these teachings have been pulled through the ringer and shown to be full of holes....

[truth_child]

that is what i cant understand i know when one is teaching wrong. i know one ... because i am saved... two because i have studied not just read the bible. so i just cant see how they can fall for the stuff they do

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

No one is perfect, but God is and so are his ways, yet often time people fail to see this, because they want what they want now. And then to top things they want things to be perfect in every area. God has to work out things in the life of everyone and often it just not instant. We must wait on the Lord. Do what we know to do and wait. When God begins to move we need to be in tuned to his ways and be in prayer and we will see mountains moved. You can not force people to be like you or force people to believe like you.


I knew God was a liar!! Job 1:8

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Do not use personal names, please.

[Night_Light]

It is very hard for me TATM..to believe you align yourself with the teachings of Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Robert Tilton and even fred Price. I guess in my haste I thought you would have enough sense to recogonize charletans but maybe I was wrong...

Maybe you support the WOF preachers and have been offended by those who have seen the evil wiles of this movement...which isn't pentecostal by any means..pentecostals may be holy rollers who enjoy a little dancing in the spirit and speaking in tongues but they are in no way evil enough to preach sickness is sin and death is a result of unbelief-for if that were the case most of these men would have 4th stage prostrate cancer...

Have a good day my confused nemesis....

[turtle]

that is what i cant understand i know when one is teaching wrong. i know one ... because i am saved... two because i have studied not just read the bible. so i just cant see how they can fall for the stuff they do

Maybe they did not fall for it. Ever thought of that. You ever witnessed to an alcholic, I say you may have. And if you did did you fall for his drunken behavior, of course not.

[Night_Light]

TC as much as I care for you-let me explain something to you. I often do not discuss my mother's situation anymore on here, many have heard it and her story is not to be one used for pity but for example-nor would I want to embarrass her as she was a very compassionate and bright person.

As you know I grew up in a "WOF" home, where speaking positive confessions and believing that you could have whatsoever you asked for -was common knowledge and the true translation of the scripture(Mark 11:24 is a good example).

Now my mother had an early, early diagnosis of breast cancer at the age of 46-she had always been healthy. Now when the doctor told her of her illness-he told her listen we can cut this very, very small tumor out and you may need a bit of chemo -really it was standard procedure-this wasn't advanced cancer of any kind-it could have been dealt with and there is NO doubt in my mind she would still be here today in her mid sixties enjoying life.....BUT she took the teachings she had been so ingrained with from her early days of christianity(I call it getting in with the wrong crowd-the woffers) those teachings were as rampant then as they are now-that you can speak healing into existence, that you can rebuke the devil and he will flee-teachings my precious TC- that are in the bible YOU also read-these aren't made up verses.

So let us not say people are mislead by stupidity or ignorance..it is what it is and those teachings can take a bad turn-they are in your bible..






On another note
***Now I also have very,very little respect for those who take up a cause to make themselves look good-cancer is a serious issue taking up a cause doesn't change the fact WOF has been teaching "faith healing through the power of the positive confession for years or that sickness is sin and sin is unbelief" lalalalala-no marathon can change that- what can change that is someone standing up to these people and saying what you preach has taken lives-it is then that respect can be gained..

[truth_child]

sorry night light

[Night_Light]

My friend no need to be sorry-I know you mean well and that you hate religious cults as much as I do..

Have a great day and stay healthy....

[turtle]

Alexis i will post this here on the woff thread as well.


If you are the survivor of WOFF, or a church that was taken over by WOFF and you have left that church and feel that you are in need of and desire to seek professional help and counseling, I have received an e-mail from Mr. Lawrence A. (Larry) Pile who works for the nationally known Wellspring Retreat & Resource Center that is a residential treatment facility that provides a program of counseling and instruction to victims of cultic abuse, religious abuse and/or mind control. Wellspring is a nonprofit corporation and the nation's only residential treatment center for cult victims that also provides consultation to families who have loved ones in cults. Wellspring is accredited by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations. Wellspring also researches and archives information on the various groups in the cult world, researches the cult phenomenon in a clinical setting in conjunction with Ohio University, attends and speaks at national conferences, and conducts phone and on-site consultations for families and friends of cult victims. http://www.wellspringretreat.org

I heard about this center years ago. It is highly recommended or was over twenty years ago, I am glad it is still going strong. BTW Alexis I will be praying for you. It hard coming out of a stituation for those involved as well as for those who know people that were in certain situation.

turtle

[truth_child]

wof is a dangerous doctrine. it tells those that they just ahve to beleive in order to get prosperity and health. doctors are frowned upon there is a wof church near where i live and it has been a controversity for years they keep children from their parents and when the parents try to leave they keep the children have even gone to court about it. the wof is not true we beleive and receive i can see that but not like wof of faith does. now its jsut give give give and then claim claim claim it

[Night_Light]

TC, again you have summed it up perfectly. Why certain groups want to frown on medicine and call the use of it unbelief is amazing to me..some may try to deny it but there is no denying it, the proof in the roots of the teachings..

The church need to embrace medicine as a gift from God almighty and stop fearing technology and science

[turtle]

TC as much as I care for you-let me explain something to you. I often do not discuss my mother's situation anymore on here, many have heard it and her story is not to be one used for pity but for example-nor would I want to embarrass her as she was a very compassionate and bright person.

As you know I grew up in a "WOF" home, where speaking positive confessions and believing that you could have whatsoever you asked for -was common knowledge and the true translation of the scripture(Mark 11:24 is a good example).

Now my mother had an early, early diagnosis of breast cancer at the age of 46-she had always been healthy. Now when the doctor told her of her illness-he told her listen we can cut this very, very small tumor out and you may need a bit of chemo -really it was standard procedure-this wasn't advanced cancer of any kind-it could have been dealt with and there is NO doubt in my mind she would still be here today in her mid sixties enjoying life.....BUT she took the teachings she had been so ingrained with from her early days of christianity(I call it getting in with the wrong crowd-the woffers) those teachings were as rampant then as they are now-that you can speak healing into existence, that you can rebuke the devil and he will flee-teachings my precious TC- that are in the bible YOU also read-these aren't made up verses.

So let us not say people are mislead by stupidity or ignorance..it is what it is and those teachings can take a bad turn-they are in your bible..






On another note
***Now I also have very,very little respect for those who take up a cause to make themselves look good-cancer is a serious issue taking up a cause doesn't change the fact WOF has been teaching "faith healing through the power of the positive confession for years or that sickness is sin and sin is unbelief" lalalalala-no marathon can change that- what can change that is someone standing up to these people and saying what you preach has taken lives-it is then that respect can be gained..

I understand what you are saying, But what needs to be taught to these groups is that people need to see the doctor and yet we will pray the prayer of faith. Does this make sense to you. See I am not against claim something as long as it is in context of scritpture and you and I both know alot of times it is done unscripturally. It is totally done out of the will of God and not in the will of God. Yet the word instructs us to be bold. So then you go back into another position to be bold and pray, but it does not mean one does not seek medical attention. Jews and Hebrew went and seen doctors. Education is needed and so it seems a lack there of. It is a battleship fight with a tight rope in the middle. It called checks and balances.

[turtle]

God moves in different ways. He can use doctors as well as miracles and as well as healing over time, but one must consider without documented proof to the world it is not healing. With evidence then it is healing. There is a difference. That why some tv ministers have gotten into to trouble over the years and still do. And boy I won't go there. That is the big can of worms of wof.

[Night_Light]

Turtle asks night_light, "does this make sense to you"?



turtle EVERYTHING makes sense to me-I am very logical and reasonable and I am so not fooled by anyone but have been able to see the fool in many-it comes from being a life time student, I am always seeking, learning and discovering.


Prophets and those who pretend to heal are no different than psychics, fortune tellers and the voodoo medicine man and if someone gets healed without medicine I do not see that as a miracle, I call it life.

[truth_child]

i have been prayed for by different men and women and i knew when they prayed that i was healed and i would be but on the other hand ive had to go to doctors also to reveive healing

[turtle]

Turtle asks night_light, "does this make sense to you"?



turtle EVERYTHING makes sense to me-I am very logical and reasonable and I am so not fooled by anyone but have been able to see the fool in many-it comes from being a life time student, I am always seeking, learning and discovering.


Prophets and those who pretend to heal are no different than psychics, fortune tellers and the voodoo medicine man and if someone gets healed without medicine I do not see that as a miracle, I call it life.


But you know I have never seen a real healing when wof minister was concern have you?? I have only seen really healing such as miracles when God was doing the work, using ministers to pray for people in scriptural context. See this is my beef. Some churches may seem like wof but are not and others are just exactly that wof. Or wolves. How to know the difference by their love for one another. And if you never been in a loving church you really have messed out on something extra special. What might be misinterpetted as a lack of love maybe really a language barrier on someone part because they are not from the region. And wof prey on knowing the language that is why they can manipulate people so well. They know how to get the money and the support from people, just like a business person.

Most car dealers really hate to see me coming. I almost went back to a place to rub the deal in their face I got because they said I couldn't get a better deal then they offered. Boy they did not know me. They assumed I was ignorant because of the way I was dressed. I got the deal I wanted from another dealer and not only got a better deal but a better vehicle. Ever heard of someone buying a vehicle in the rain. Well the price and the deal was right. That is why it is so important not to have anything to do with a church that seems to be more interested in your wallet instead of you as individual. My church is such a church, but even I know it needs financial support, but it hard to support ministry when you yourself is working for the Lord. So basically my church and ministers are supporting me the same way i support them and that is more blessing then some even understand. God enables us all and strengthens us all in different ways.

[Night_Light]

But you know I have never seen a real healing when wof minister was concern have you? Turtle


No, but I have seen some one die because of their "ministry" ..

[turtle]

But you know I have never seen a real healing when wof minister was concern have you? Turtle


No, but I have seen some one die because of their "ministry" ..

I heard a story years ago many years ago, about a church where a preacher hit a lady on the head. She was an old woman and when she fell it killed her. Now is that scary. I believe it can happen. Some stories I have heard sends chill bumps and not the good kind.

Now I know this is the type of thing you speak of as well as those not seeing a doctor. I have heard people say don't take medicine, but I will be the first to take medicne, but that does not mean I do not pray. It be like not having virus protection for your computer.

I think this is your beef my friend with wof. People thinking they do not have to have to go to a doctor, but just trust God.

[Night_Light]

"I heard a story years ago many years ago, about a church where a preacher hit a lady on the head. She was an old woman and when she fell it killed her" Turtle


Dear God that is horrible-that is why we should do as are kindergarden teacher told us and keep our hands to ourselves..No one needs to be pushing people over for them to receive a blessing from the holy spirit..


I went supposed "slain in the spirit" in my younger years..and believe me it was not any Holy spirit-just a fun activity...

[truth_child]

night light that is the devil telling people to do such things as hitting people in the head with a hammer.
i beleive that GOD CAN AND DOES HEAL today i have been slain in the SPIRIT as you say and it was not a kindergarten experiance it was real there are many fakes out there and we must watch them.
turtle i beleive that a person can go to a doctor and still have faith. i beleive that we should talk to GOD FIRST and ask HIM to heal us if it doesnt come we shoulkd use a doctor if the doctor say it is something that needs to be done immeaditaly then we should do it these that would tell a person not to take mediocines have never had a good pain hit them yet or had a heart attack or somthing or they would get to a doctor

[Night_Light]

yes, there are many fakes out there...way too many

[turtle]

"I heard a story years ago many years ago, about a church where a preacher hit a lady on the head. She was an old woman and when she fell it killed her" Turtle


Dear God that is horrible-that is why we should do as are kindergarden teacher told us and keep our hands to ourselves..No one needs to be pushing people over for them to receive a blessing from the holy spirit..


I went supposed "slain in the spirit" in my younger years..and believe me it was not any Holy spirit-just a fun activity...

The only problem is I do not know if the story was true. The source was a bit mixed up too. But needless to say I do not doubt something had happened. I never witnessed it like that, but if I did I run for the hills. And I think others would too.

[turtle]

yes, there are many fakes out there...way too many

Only way to stop people from being deceived is to educate. Our churches are lacking it seems. But I do not think so much it is the church world to blame, but you know there was a time in our country were families read their Bibles. Read them at the table before or after a meal. We do not see this happening today, everyone is going in their own direction.

[truth_child]

we all as christians need to go to church and learn from the bible . there are many who never open the bible to read at all they swear on it they say they beleive it but the dont read it

[turtle]

we all as christians need to go to church and learn from the bible . there are many who never open the bible to read at all they swear on it they say they beleive it but the dont read it

What about people that can not go to church on sunday because of work and because of health. Just because someone can not get to church does not mean they can not read and study the Bible. There are a lot of source to help today. But seriously my friend. I do agree we should go when we can and a part of a local fellowship.

[truth_child]

turtlei did NOT say that concerning those who cant get to church because of work or sickness . i was referring to those who just want go to church but just sit at home they can read their bible but they miss out on the fellowship, and the teachings of GODS WORD there have been time when i could not get to church because of sickness. ive never had to work on sunday but if i did i would try to make it to one service if posssible and i would and do take my bible to read if im somewhere where church cant be got to.

[turtle]

turtlei did NOT say that concerning those who cant get to church because of work or sickness . i was referring to those who just want go to church but just sit at home they can read their bible but they miss out on the fellowship, and the teachings of GODS WORD there have been time when i could not get to church because of sickness. ive never had to work on sunday but if i did i would try to make it to one service if posssible and i would and do take my bible to read if im somewhere where church cant be got to.

T.C. stop trying to pick a fight over ever little thing I say. It will drive you and me both banana's

[truth_child]

turtle im not trying to pick a fight.. i asked a question which hasnt been answered

[Night_Light]

Turtle, you are a troublemaker...why did you come to this important thread and post a story about a women dying after being hit in the head and falling slain in the spirit and then say you don't know if it is true!

If you do not know a story to be 100% true then don't gossip-I do not want this important thread ruined with funny fables..

Have a Happy Forth all of you..arron I am hoping your health is improving!

[turtle]

Turtle, you are a troublemaker...why did you come to this important thread and post a story about a women dying after being hit in the head and falling slain in the spirit and then say you don't know if it is true!

If you do not know a story to be 100% true then don't gossip-I do not want this important thread ruined with funny fables..

Have a Happy Forth all of you..arron I am hoping your health is improving!

Three times from similiar source. Forgive me but that was not my intent and I do not find it funny. Do you realize how these groups destroy lives. They start with stories such of these as a warning that if you talk you land up dead. They strike fear as well as faith into to someone if that is possible. Actually i do not think they tell it to build faith, but to warn. It so subtle most would miss it. They make you believe someone is from a different faith and try to encourage you to bring them into their church. Leading to much deception.

How that for a summary of a future report. Studying some of this stuff can be interesting.

[truth_child]

anyone whowould even dare to hit a person in the head with a hammer intently and for the purpose of warning people what would happen to them if they talked should be areeseted and put away a person that is saved will NOT blieve such ies anyway GOD give more decerment than that

[turtle]

anyone whowould even dare to hit a person in the head with a hammer intently and for the purpose of warning people what would happen to them if they talked should be areeseted and put away a person that is saved will NOT blieve such ies anyway GOD give more decerment than that

I agree, but if one never meet a devil you never know what he is capable of. Yet it seems one can be surrounded and never know it. Arron you and I both know the devil is a great deceiver, but no matter what Christ already has the victory.

[truth_child]

i know that and i was speaking of those who claim to be christian for many do but are not in heart
the devil is the deveiver and he has deceived many but when we get saved we have a different spirit with in us and are changed from the old to the new. praise GOD FOREVER

[turtle]

i know that and i was speaking of those who claim to be christian for many do but are not in heart
the devil is the deveiver and he has deceived many but when we get saved we have a different spirit with in us and are changed from the old to the new. praise GOD FOREVER

Would you be interested in working on first John and looking at scripture that actually speaks about the anti Christ. There other scripture too, but I think really bring out some of these actually might be good. Not sure where we will put it on here, but I been thinking about it. I am sure with all these Bible scholars we can combine our efforts. I am talking about a guide for the average jo to grasp? Are you interested?

[truth_child]

why not it might be interesting to do so

[turtle]

why not it might be interesting to do so

Where do you suggest put it, so every group can get involved if they would like. I would hate for some to feel they could not participate because it not in their group. I would like to see what these groups come up with. besdies what is scriptural taught.

[truth_child]

turtle just start a new thread and title it what ever suits you to do.

[turtle]

turtle just start a new thread and title it what ever suits you to do.

But I do not know whether to put it in pentecostals, doctrines believes and proofs, discussion or where. I think about where tomorrow. I am tired arron, btw. I think it is a good idea, maybe ti help pull some things together to help cult victims to know they are in a cult based on scripture.

[truth_child]

yes a cult always pick some bible verse to base their doctrines on but when yheye take scripture out of contxt that is where the problem is

[Night_Light]

http://www.sram.org/0802/faith-healing.html

and another


http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/signs_and_wonders_of_kenneth_copeland.htm

[turtle]

http://www.sram.org/0802/faith-healing.html

and another


http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/signs_and_wonders_of_kenneth_copeland.htm

One needs to watch out for extremism in doctrinal issues. Often extremes can happen in any church, but what is sad is what it does to the people in the church. It causes more division in any church then unity. How non denominational churches survive the Holy War I wonder.

[Night_Light]

I can see where you are coming from when you speak on non-denom churches.. I think many have grasped the idea these days they need accountability but when they first found themselves breaking away from traditional churches-this is when they let anyone in the door and it caused a lot of mischief...

By the way I have written a text on branhams thread about women and the abuse they suffer from cults -you may want to read it....as well as started a new thread on cults and their abuse towards women.

[turtle]

I can see where you are coming from when you speak on non-denom churches.. I think many have grasped the idea these days they need accountability but when they first found themselves breaking away from traditional churches-this is when they let anyone in the door and it caused a lot of mischief...

By the way I have written a text on branhams thread about women and the abuse they suffer from cults -you may want to read it....as well as started a new thread on cults and their abuse towards women.

May not be what you are looking for but it is an opinion. By the way where is the braham thread old board or is one on the new as well.

[truth_child]

i am back. just have to have a toe removed becuase of diabeties
wof is a dangerous doctrine

[debbie60477]

THE PROSPERITY MOVEMENT: Wounded Charismatics
http://www.smallings.com/Books/ProspENG.html

Offers counseling and healing to victims of the Word of Faith/Prosperity Movement. Exposes gnostic origins and shows how this extreme branch of the charismatic movement worships a false diety, does not practice biblical faith and is not Christian at all. Refutes the misinterpretations of texts used by the movement’s teachers. 15 chapters. (Download from website as Word 340k or as PDF 1.3mg)

[Night_Light]

You know a very sad thing I witnessed all over again when meeting up with a friend involved in this "type" of cult/teaching..is the feelings of guilt they are always walking around with and I mean taking things to the extreme and feeling a need to stay on top of it to perfection in order to remain blessed in their lives...it is a very tough way to live..


Good link may I just write this excerpt out so people can see it..


"Jason drove away from the Bible school in despair. He had invested his life, money and faith in the teachings of the school.
He had watched a fellow student die the week before from dysentery, an easily curable disease.*The unfortunate student, motivated by the teachings of the Word of Faith school, had not resorted to medical treatment.
Jason still believed in God. He simply did not want to pray to him. In Jason’s mind, he was not abandoning God, for God had abandoned him. His Bible lay closed in a corner of the car as he headed home to attend a state university. He had decided on a career that did not include gospel ministry.
I met Jason at the university. He was a fellow student in an educational psychology course. We got acquainted through a mutual interest in good Mexican food.
During lunch one day, I asked Jason if he was a Christian. He replied yes, though he had not read the Bible in three years nor attended church and had no plans for doing so. He then related the above story.
Jason did not know I had just finished writing the manuscript for this book. I gave him a copy and it changed his life.
Today Jason is a public school teacher and a member of a sound evangelical church. God had not abandoned him. He realizes now the true God had delivered him from the false one, taught at the Word of Faith school.
The last time I saw Jason, he told me a really funny joke and was laughing. I had not seem him laugh much before.
If you are looking for ammunition against the Charismatic movement, put this book down. It is not for you. Likewise if you are looking to support the view that spiritual gifts and miracles no longer exist.
I am not a cessationist, (one who believes gifts and miracles of the Spirit ceased after the Apostolic age.) I believe New Testament spiritual gifts exist today, though not necessarily for the same purposes nor in the same way as sometimes taught in Charismatic circles.
This is vital to clarify, because a common defense by the prosperity teachers against critics, is that we are “against the Holy Spirit” or “against spiritual gifts.” I am against none of these. I am against false gods, false christs and false prophets.
The Charismatic movement initially had commendable aspects. Asking God for fresh empowering of the Holy Spirit and earnestly desiring spiritual gifts to edify the church, is laudable. Scripture, in fact, commands it.
The movement tended to be a well-deserved rebuke to older and colder denominations. It was a fresh reminder of my own duty as a minister to pray for the sick...with occasional dramatic results.
A great reverence for the Word of God also characterized much of the movement. While some Charismatics mistakenly thought of the Bible as a magic wand to get what they want, some traditional denominations did not seem to think about the Bible at all.
Fresh enthusiasm in worship is another praiseworthy by-product of the Charismatic movement. Personally, I was getting tired of “climbing Jacob’s ladder.” Many fine worship songs in traditional churches today were born out of the movement.
What I do NOT appreciate is the manner in which large sectors of the Charismatic movement have been hijacked by a bizarre gnostic cult, known variously as The Prosperity Movement, Word of Faith or Faith Movement.
I appreciate even less the psychological and spiritual damage done to many former adherents of the movement who have crashed into the wall of reality. Perhaps these are the lucky ones. Thousands of others are still unaware they may be worshiping a false god and a false christ through revelations of false prophets.
This book is not intended as ammunition, but as a tool of mercy. I want it to help those whose faith has been injured by the Faith Movement and deliverance to those still involved, before they too crash into the wall of reality".

[truth_child]

yes there are many who are so caught up in the wof movemnets that they dont know anything else. it is always give money to get blessed. why ive been blessed when i didnt have a dome to my name and ive been healed and strired by THE HOLY GHOST when i still had troubles every where but GOD (JESUS ) IS STILL THE BLESSER. praise HIS NAME

[Night_Light]

http://www.cultwatch.com/SuperApostleDetector.html

[truth_child]

cults have been around ever since the world was peopled . and will stay here till the judgement i suppose but we dont have to get involved in one just stay true to THE WORD OF GOD and serve HIM and everything will work out for us

[Rev Rafael D Martinez]

http://spiritwatch.org/firefaith1.htm

may this be of help to those struggling under the weight of this warped "revelation."