What Do They Believe & Why Do They Stay?

[bramble]

I think it is important to discuss just what CFCMI teaches about the nature of God, salvation, sin and forgivenss.

Is God some big meanie with a club just waiting to let us have it the moment we mess up in the least?

Did Jesus die to free us from our sins or to keep people in bondage like CFCMI seems to do!

Is God some loving, compassionate father who has adopted us and wants all of us to spend eternity with Him? Without the Holy Trinity we get this distant judge of a God, not a personal relationship with Jesus.

Why do they believe that there is no salvation outside CFCMI?

Are these men taught that they will go to "the lake of fire" should they ever walk away from this "church"?

Doesn't the Bible say, "Judge not lest you be judged." We can not presume hell for anyone. We can not presume Heaven for ourselves. We must repent of our sins and then accept God's forgiveness.

Couldn't God save souls without the help of L. R. Davis?--I think even some of his staunchest defenders eventually came to realize that he was guilty.

Some good sources for this: www.abusivechurches.org, www.cfcmi.org, www.pillars.net

When you see what CFCMI really believes and teaches you will be shaking in your boots, believe me! Their false teaching must see the light of day as all sin will one day!

(more on this in future)

[turningjapanese]

Dear Bramble:

I cannot say exactly what CFCMI believes in; I don't think they know for sure themselves.

What I do know for sure, is that they view God as punitive in nature. This was instilled in them from LR; their belief system is fear-based. It seems they focus on irrelevant externals---the "appearance of evil," (completely subjective) like wearing shorts! A fundamentalist view. Unfortunately, there won't be an open discussion with a fundamentalist; let alone one who has been brainwashed with a lot of garbage from a narcissistic sociopathic pedophile. They have been conditioned to refute any person with an opposing viewpoint. VERY primitive black/white thinking.

Some stay because they are afraid, some stay because they can't think for themselves, and I'm sure a few actually believe the smoke and mirrors.

Others KNOW the truth, but choose to deny it. But self-deception is not an easy thing to live with. Way too emotionally draining.

Peace

[bramble]

Dear Bramble:

I cannot say exactly what CFCMI believes in; I don't think they know for sure themselves.

What I do know for sure, is that they view God as punitive in nature. This was instilled in them from LR; their belief system is fear-based. It seems they focus on irrelevant externals---the "appearance of evil," (completely subjective) like wearing shorts! A fundamentalist view. Unfortunately, there won't be an open discussion with a fundamentalist; let alone one who has been brainwashed with a lot of garbage from a narcissistic sociopathic pedophile. They have been conditioned to refute any person with an opposing viewpoint. VERY primitive black/white thinking.

Some stay because they are afraid, some stay because they can't think for themselves, and I'm sure a few actually believe the smoke and mirrors.

Others KNOW the truth, but choose to deny it. But self-deception is not an easy thing to live with. Way too emotionally draining.

Peace

I spent a lot of time last night reading The Pillars and CFCMI. Maybe their faith is so vague that it cannot be taken seriously nor discussed honestly. I wish there were a forum for honest faith sharing, but I doubt they are emotionally equipped to handle this. I fear these Pentecostal types only know fear and manipulation, that may be why that other guy split. He couldn't handle talking theology. I'm going to take a crack at this anyway this week if I find the time--one topic at a time.

I wonder how many of these CFC guys have the courage to really look at their 'church' and see it for what it really is. Maybe the new 'roller rink' will wake them up!

Regarding self deception I have been there before, but outgrew it. They may too! It's true people can easily lie to themselves. It is not ethical, of course. We must pray that the Holy Spirit shows them the Light.

I wonder if the ones not in Waukegan took as much of a beating! They probably saw a lot less of Davis.

BTW: The whole shorts thing is a hoot! I think shorts can be modest if they are not too short and not too tight. Again--black and white reasoning on their part.

[turningjapanese]

What is the Pillars?

I have noticed that San Diego and Virginia branches have the same stale website they've used for months...they don't update them very often, do they? Too busy riding the Harleys, I suppose.

[bramble]

What is the Pillars?

I have noticed that San Diego and Virginia branches have the same stale website they've used for months...they don't update them very often, do they? Too busy riding the Harleys, I suppose.

www.pillars.net is one of the cfcmi websites. It doesn't get updated much either. It seems that their webmaster is trying to write a video game--sort of like Veggie Tales but for bigger boys (LOL).

The Norfolk site still says, "Summer is here" on another page it give a worship schedule for Christmas and New Year's. (ROTF)

They might be riding their Harleys in Norfolk or San Diego, but certainly not in Waukegan--too icy!

[bramble]

I wonder if there were a way to explain how a loving and forgiving Father turns into a spiteful, vengeful, punitive judge. God is 100 percent just. God is also 100 percent merciful. We must appeal to His mercy because in the end we will all be found wanting. We will all fall short of the Law if we are trying to live up to all of Mosaic law.

It can be seen a solution to sin and the idolatry of the Israelites who had become so ritualisic even superstitious from living all those centuries in Egypt. God tried to find more holy rituals for them so they would stop worshipping Egyptian gods and focus on Him instead.

Likwise Jesus is the New Covenant. His sacrifice on the Cross has taken the place of the Old Testament practices found in the Old Testament. Some rituals (sacraments) were replaced. Circumcision is replaced by Baptism. Christians were no longer expected to eat kosher foods.

We must appeal to God's mercy. We must become small like little children then God will pick us up.

So this fear factor in CFC must come from a lack of love from within their own group....

[bramble]

I wish there were a way to break through all the:

twisted scripture, spiritual abuse, paranoia, fear, lies etc. and show these guys that we really do care about them and want to help them.

It is so sad to see people still trusting those who hurt them again and again. These guys in CFC have in many cases turned their backs on their real loved ones on the outside.

It is also sorry that they feel anything prior to CFC as being bad, sinful, subversive etc. I wish I could break through all the ****!

The truth is most things in life aren't ALL BAD or ALL GOOD. Most things have some good and some bad. Moderation and balance are usually the key.

[bramble]

:(
In my opinion it is the scriptural abuse and unbiblical teaching of CFCMI that allowed Davis make the wild claims that he did. He spoke of starting a religious order of 200 single men "eunichs" to save the world. He really wanted a stable of clean cut, attractive, young men to be a front for his church and to fulfill his own evil, selfish desires. The men are now afraid to leave and do not see Jesus as a merciful saviour, but a harsh Judge. I've read some CFC Bible studies on Final Judgement--it sounds HARSH!

Regarding Oneness, this teaching originated with Sabellian, who was later deemed a heratic, in the early Church. (The Pentecostals brought this back in the 1940's and may have taken it from another sect.) The Council of Niacea in the fourth century and other Eccumenical councils delt with this teaching and deemed it to be false. The Niacene creed grew out of this. Most Christians accept this creed.

If you take away the Holy Trinity out of the equation, then you can not have a personal relationship with Jesus, in my opinion. He wanted to walk among us and be our brother. His Father wanted to adopt us. It is through Jesus' death and resurection that we are made God's children.

When Jesus was baptised The Father and the Holy Spirit descended upon him. God the Father didn't say, "This is my beloved Me". He said, "This is my beloved Son..." This shows One God, Three Persons working independently and together.

Why does Jesus pray to His Father especially at the time of His Passion? There must be two persons--at least.

After His resurection Jesus told His apostles that although He wanted to stay He needed to return home so He could send His Holy Spirit...yet another person--up to three.

Lord's Prayer...Jesus taught us to say, "Our Father who art in heaven..." He doen't say, "Our Me who art in heaven..."

In Genesis God the Creator says, "Let us create may in Our Image" He is speaking to the other persons of the Trinity.

Baptism in Jesus Name... If the Trinitarian formula of Father, Son, Holy Spirit is used instead of "In Jesus Name" is Jesus name not also invoked? Baptism washes away our sins and brings us into God's family. It is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

God has revealed himself in different ways, that doesn't negate the truth of the Holy Trinity. We need to throw away much scripture to dismiss the teaching of the Holy Trinity. Modalism, another name for Oneness, makes is sound like there are many gods or a god behind the God. God isn't an actor.

IMO: All Pentecostal teaching must be called into question. CFC is just another Pentecostal sect--LRD was originally Pentecostal and look at all the dammage he caused. Learn more about their founders.

Please check out other posts on Pentecostal and Apostolic churches on this board. Maybe they are more like CFC than we would care to admit!

I believe in One God, Three Persons...Three in One, One in Three. NOT THREE GODS!

[bramble]

:(
In my opinion it is the scriptural abuse and unbiblical teaching of CFCMI that allowed Davis make the wild claims that he did. He spoke of starting a religious order of 200 single men "eunichs" to save the world. He really wanted a stable of clean cut, attractive, young men to be a front for his church and to fulfill his own evil, selfish desires. The men are now afraid to leave and do not see Jesus as a merciful saviour, but a harsh Judge. I've read some CFC Bible studies on Final Judgement--it sounds HARSH!

Regarding Oneness, this teaching originated with Sabellian, who was later deemed a heratic, in the early Church. (The Pentecostals brought this back in the 1940's and may have taken it from another sect.) The Council of Niacea in the fourth century and other Eccumenical councils delt with this teaching and deemed it to be false. The Niacene creed grew out of this. Most Christians accept this creed.

If you take away the Holy Trinity out of the equation, then you can not have a personal relationship with Jesus, in my opinion. He wanted to walk among us and be our brother. His Father wanted to adopt us. It is through Jesus' death and resurection that we are made God's children.

When Jesus was baptised The Father and the Holy Spirit descended upon him. God the Father didn't say, "This is my beloved Me". He said, "This is my beloved Son..." This shows One God, Three Persons working independently and together.

Why does Jesus pray to His Father especially at the time of His Passion? There must be two persons--at least.

After His resurection Jesus told His apostles that although He wanted to stay He needed to return home so He could send His Holy Spirit...yet another person--up to three.

Lord's Prayer...Jesus taught us to say, "Our Father who art in heaven..." He doen't say, "Our Me who art in heaven..."

In Genesis God the Creator says, "Let us create man in Our Image" He is speaking to the other persons of the Trinity.

Baptism in Jesus Name... If the Trinitarian formula of Father, Son, Holy Spirit is used instead of "In Jesus Name" is Jesus name not also invoked? Baptism washes away our sins and brings us into God's family. It is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

God has revealed himself in different ways, that doesn't negate the truth of the Holy Trinity. We need to throw away much scripture to dismiss the teaching of the Holy Trinity. Modalism, another name for Oneness, makes is sound like there are many gods or a god behind the God. God isn't an actor.

IMO: All Pentecostal teaching must be called into question. CFC is just another Pentecostal sect--LRD was originally Pentecostal and look at all the dammage he caused. Learn more about their founders.

Please check out other posts on Pentecostal and Apostolic churches on this board. Maybe they are more like CFC than we would care to admit!

I believe in One God, Three Persons...Three in One, One in Three. NOT THREE GODS!

edited by Bramble--spelling

[turningjapanese]

L.R. DAVIS made the claims he did because he was a NUTCASE.

He was enabled by those around him that had their own ego-preserving agenda. Therefore, his out-of-control behavior escalated. His own narcissistic tendency tripped him up, and he got caught. Enablers tried miserably to cover for him, but could not. They manufactured some BS mother's day speech, trying to save face for covering for a pedophile.

And now they find themselves in the Information Age!! OOPS! Didn't plan on that....

tj

[bramble]

L.R. DAVIS made the claims he did because he was a NUTCASE.

He was enabled by those around him that had their own ego-preserving agenda. Therefore, his out-of-control behavior escalated. His own narcissistic tendency tripped him up, and he got caught. Enablers tried miserably to cover for him, but could not. They manufactured some BS mother's day speech, trying to save face for covering for a pedophile.

And now they find themselves in the Information Age!! OOPS! Didn't plan on that....

tj

Davis was a nutcase who used religion to suck unsuspecting, weak willed, and at times, disabled individuals into his web of immoralty. "If you tell what we just did you will go to hell"--typical abuser. We are all lucky he didn't escalate to serial murderer as many sex offenders do. :eek:

The behavorial control, mind control, emotional control, and thought control continues; this is why the CFCMI belief system, culture, and organizational structure must all be called into question!!!

[bramble]

A vow is a sacrament (like matrimony, baptism). It is an agreement between God and man. The recipient of the sacrament is given special graces from God. A sacrament must be made in the presence of a minister, before a congregation of members of the Church. The person making the vow must have had sufficient preparation--months to years, classes, time for discernment from God. He must be of sound mind, drug free and adequate maturity for the vow to be valid. He must have given full consent of his will, also.

What a vow is NOT: something made in secret, something made in haste, something that causes physical, emotional, spiritual, or psychological harm. Something made in ignorance. A vow made under these conditions would be invalid.

Eunichship--something made in secret, something made in haste, something coerced. This is not a valid vow. No one would go to Hell for breaking it. Another definition for eunich is slave. These guys traditionally have been crammed into housing like the slaves' quarters in pre-Civil War America. (There are other definitions of eunich I won't go into.)

Sometimes someone might miss his calling in life and might realize that he was really called to marry, not to be celebate. Some are called to be single, but not to marriage ie. Paul in Bible. He who finds his health failing may decide to leave a religious community. Real churches would let an ailing person out of a religious vow--or let them retire.

No one can go to Hell for breaking a vow that was invalid to begin with. God gave us free will, minds and souls for discernment, and His Holy Spirit to guide and instruct us. We are free to choose many things. Most of all we are free to choose to be holy. True love is from God. God's love is never coerced. (I Corr. 13-14)

IMO: no would ever go to Hell for leaving CFCMI. God doesn't work that way. I fear for those who know the truth but chose to stay.

[bramble]

CFCMI believes in Oneness, and Jesus Name Only baptism so does UCPI. LR Davis, a disfellowshipped pediphile, came from UCPI and took his sexual and theological baggage with him into his new 'ministry'.

CFCMI makes great demands on the time of parishioners in terms of services, Bible Studies, social lives, monetary demands, living arrangements. I'm unsure if UCPI warehouses single men in such an inhumane fashion as CFC.

Dress code: CFCMI has loosened theirs somewhat--still no shorts for anyone, not pants for women, make up seems ok at least for pastors' women folk. UCPI doesn't allow for short hair, make up or slacks for women, no shorts.

Pastors in both churchs often live a lifestyle of extreme luxury. This has been documented on www.abusivechurches.org (http://www.abusivechurches.org) and other sites.

UCPI may not have the living arrangement thing, but they do have all the other characistics.

No salvation outside of CFCMI.

No salvation outside of UCPI. (Which Church should one join?)

There is this loose inconsistent interpretation of the Bible partially due to no formal theological training in either church, partially due to the obsessive controlling nature of pastors in both churches. When scripture does not fit the desired opinion then the pastor will "prophesey" LR Davis often would use, "Thus Saieth the Lord" whenever anyone would defeat his arguement (www.abusivechurches.org (http://www.abusivechurches.org)). Some bought it; others didn't.

Fear Tactics: both churches theaten walkouts with such things as: insanity, horrible accidents, demonic possession, backsliding and eternal damnation.

(Note: it is a sin to presume Hell for another--Presumption. Likewise we cannot presume Heaven for ourselves. If we presume Hell ourselves then we are guilty of dispair. We are merely pilgrims trying to find our way home. No one this side of heaven is a saint. No one this side of heaven is damned. If we are breathing we still have a chance at salvation.)

Walkouts from both churches can expect to have their names dragged through the mud. Who really cares what the likes of such people say behind ones' back anyway. They probably were false friends in the first place (they'll know we are Christians by our gossip?) :rolleyes:

Other sources: www.pentecostalfreedom.org (http://www.pentecostalfreedom.org) www.expentecostals.org (http://www.expentecostals.org)

[John Cady]

CFCMI believes in Oneness, and Jesus Name Only baptism so does UCPI. LR Davis, a disfellowshipped pediphile, came from UCPI and took his sexual and theological baggage with him into his new 'ministry'.

CFCMI makes great demands on the time of parishioners in terms of services, Bible Studies, social lives, monetary demands, living arrangements. I'm unsure if UCPI warehouses single men in such an inhumane fashion as CFC.

Dress code: CFCMI has loosened theirs somewhat--still no shorts for anyone, not pants for women, make up seems ok at least for pastors' women folk. UCPI doesn't allow for short hair, make up or slacks for women, no shorts.

Pastors in both churchs often live a lifestyle of extreme luxury. This has been documented on www.abusivechurches.org (http://www.abusivechurches.org) and other sites.

UCPI may not have the living arrangement thing, but they do have all the other characistics.

No salvation outside of CFCMI.

No salvation outside of UCPI. (Which Church should one join?)

There is this loose inconsistent interpretation of the Bible partially due to no formal theological training in either church, partially due to the obsessive controlling nature of pastors in both churches. When scripture does not fit the desired opinion then the pastor will "prophesey" LR Davis often would use, "Thus Saieth the Lord" whenever anyone would defeat his arguement (www.abusivechurches.org (http://www.abusivechurches.org)). Some bought it; others didn't.

Fear Tactics: both churches theaten walkouts with such things as: insanity, horrible accidents, demonic possession, backsliding and eternal damnation.

(Note: it is a sin to presume Hell for another--Presumption. Likewise we cannot presume Heaven for ourselves. If we presume Hell ourselves then we are guilty of dispair. We are merely pilgrims trying to find our way home. No one this side of heaven is a saint. No one this side of heaven is damned. If we are breathing we still have a chance at salvation.)

Walkouts from both churches can expect to have their names dragged through the mud. Who really cares what the likes of such people say behind ones' back anyway. They probably were false friends in the first place (they'll know we are Christians by our gossip?) :rolleyes:

Other sources: www.pentecostalfreedom.org (http://www.pentecostalfreedom.org) www.expentecostals.org (http://www.expentecostals.org)

First, let me say that there are other Oneness Pentecostal organizations that do not go to the same level of extremes as CFCMI, or even the UPCI for that matter.

Not all UPCI churches fall into the same category of control or rigidity; I worshipped at a UPCI church in Norfolk until I retired from the Navy, and have lots of fond memories of the place. The pastor was a wonderful man of God, lived humbly, and was more than willing to talk to me. Another UPCI pastor in Maryland worked a full-time job and lived modestly as well; however, I have seen the other extreme too.

The UPCI does not have a single men's program that I know of. However, there are varying degrees to which churches enforces specific standards. There is a church I visited recently from a different Oneness organization, and there seems to be a lot more latitude than what UPCI or CFCMI allow, yet they too are precious saints. Once my current financial situation is resolved, I plan on attending there on a regular basis.

I have heard some of the so-called fear tactics too, especially from Davis; leaving an organization does not send men to hell, leaving Christ does.

[bramble]

First, let me say that there are other Oneness Pentecostal organizations that do not go to the same level of extremes as CFCMI, or even the UPCI for that matter.

Not all UPCI churches fall into the same category of control or rigidity; I worshipped at a UPCI church in Norfolk until I retired from the Navy, and have lots of fond memories of the place. The pastor was a wonderful man of God, lived humbly, and was more than willing to talk to me. Another UPCI pastor in Maryland worked a full-time job and lived modestly as well; however, I have seen the other extreme too.

The UPCI does not have a single men's program that I know of. However, there are varying degrees to which churches enforces specific standards. There is a church I visited recently from a different Oneness organization, and there seems to be a lot more latitude than what UPCI or CFCMI allow, yet they too are precious saints. Once my current financial situation is resolved, I plan on attending there on a regular basis.

I have heard some of the so-called fear tactics too, especially from Davis; leaving an organization does not send men to hell, leaving Christ does.

However, I found a site similar to ABC put up by an Ex-Pentecostal. His name is Joe. He reminds me of Alan M. I wonder why there is such a latitude between churches.

Why would your financial situation keep you from attending church? Do they expect the customary 80 percent contribution that CFCMI did? Do they have a rigid dress code, suits, ties, certain colors, fabrics?

Fear tactics: I think that some in CFC think that Davis is their 'saviour' or 'final judge' take your pick. I wonder if Davis and Hamm aren't the norm. I hope not. From what I have read by ex Pentecostals it seems that they say that Pentecostal pastors seem to equate salvation with being a member of there right church and that Jesus is not a merciful savour but a just and harsh judge.

Some ex-Pentecostals joke about having to do building project similar to CFCMI--fixing up pastor's home etc.

What do Pentecostals believe about Divine Mercy?

[John Cady]

Why would your financial situation keep you from attending church? Do they expect the customary 80 percent contribution that CFCMI did? Do they have a rigid dress code, suits, ties, certain colors, fabrics?
Recently I fell on hard times. Much of the problem was due to choices my wife made without my knowledge, including alcohol abuse; I would try to squeeze as much out of what finances she hadn't drained due to the long commute to and from work, but sometimes I wouln't even have enough money to put gas in my car, thus I would be stuck at home. I will not go into detail, but there are some Pentecostal pastors who do not understand the financial crisis of the family, and seem to equate the INABILITY to tithe with UNWILLINGNESS to tithe. Mine was the former, not the latter. That came across as me being disobedient to God when the whole mess wasn't even my fault.

I am currently looking at other churches, but some have not been responsive; some even gave unfavorable responses.

[John Cady]

Fear tactics: I think that some in CFCMI think that Davis is their 'saviour' or 'final judge' take your pick. I wonder if Davis and Hamm aren't the norm. I hope not. From what I have read by ex Pentecostals it seems that they say that Pentecostal pastors seem to equate salvation with being a member of there right church and that Jesus is not a merciful savour but a just and harsh judge.

Some ex-Pentecostals joke about having to do building project similar to CFCMI--fixing up pastor's home etc.

Davis and Hamm and definitely NOT the norm. In the late 1960s, the Arkansas district of the UPCI was investigating allegations of sodomy and child molesting in the Trumann and Jonesboro area. Davis and Hamm both were licensed UPCI pastors at that time, and both men resigned their credentials to avoid being brought in for questioning by the district. Since the church organization was limited in what it could do, plus the laws were different in that era, Davis slipped out like an eel.

I have heard some UPCI preachers ciriticize about some churches in the Oneness movement being "too liberal" or being "wrong", too. I find it amazing that many other Oneness groups are not as critical of the UPCI as the UPCI is of them.

I do believe Jesus is a mericful God, but at the same time He will judge us all; it is important to walk in His steps every day, regardless of what church name is above the door.

[bramble]

Recently I fell on hard times. Much of the problem was due to choices my wife made without my knowledge, including alcohol abuse; I would try to squeeze as much out of what finances she hadn't drained due to the long commute to and from work, but sometimes I wouln't even have enough money to put gas in my car, thus I would be stuck at home. I will not go into detail, but there are some Pentecostal pastors who do not understand the financial crisis of the family, and seem to equate the INABILITY to tithe with UNWILLINGNESS to tithe. Mine was the former, not the latter. That came across as me being disobedient to God when the whole mess wasn't even my fault.

I am currently looking at other churches, but some have not been responsive; some even gave unfavorable responses.

I hope you're not in a church that expect a huge offering now ie: 80%. My church expects 10% and at times lesser offerings 1-5% for other things (charitable works for poor, retired clergy, building upkeep, education, etc.) You hit the nail on the head. If you pastor is expecting more than you can pay and it is putting your family in hardship, if you can't afford gas or food etc. then you pastor is just wrong. God is pro-family.

I heard a pastor on the radio. He said God comes before family, but family comes before Church. Another pastor in my church (he passed away a while ago) said that a mother's place was in the home especially if she has a young one at home. In other words, sometimes Church must take a back seat. (I may get gigged for this, but I agree).

What if your pastor expected time or money from you and you had a sick child at home. I hope he wouldn't expect something of you that of you that would take you away from your child or keep you from affording health care for your child and family.

A good pastor won't expect more than you can comfortably and reasonably give. Your offerings should be between you, your wife and your God. (I still have visions of these Davis women dripping with diamonds. (LOL). I've never had a pastor like you have described.) I wish you well.

BTW: I do not see chemical dependency as a 'choice' rather an afliction.

God Bless!

[bramble]

I've read other blog on other sites that make UCPI seem very conservative, rigid, and strict. I have read of weekend long fasts every weekend. Water, but no food except for babies.

I've read of strict dress codes for both, but am not sure what the 'uniform of the day' is for such churches.

I have also read that CFCMI used to put an emphasis on serving free meals to their congregations, but the interest in that gradually waned.

Does CFCMI have a typical dress code--favorite colors, forbidden clothing?

What do you know of these things?

[turningjapanese]

NO SHORTS!!!


I never understood this; what does clothing have to do with being a "good Christian?"

No Jewelry? (at least for the congregation...ok for Pastor's wive's to sport BLING!!)

To me, they focus more on the OUTSIDE APPEARANCE than on the INSIDE.

[bramble]

NO SHORTS!!!


I never understood this; what does clothing have to do with being a "good Christian?"

No Jewelry? (at least for the congregation...ok for Pastor's wive's to sport BLING!!)

To me, they focus more on the OUTSIDE APPEARANCE than on the INSIDE.

IMO: Shorts are not always immodest. They do not belong in Church except on little children. I do not think the CFC and other Pentecostals should be allowed to make dress codes for people OUTSIDE OF CHURCH as they do.

One can dress modestly and reverently and still have some self expression.

Outward appearance matters to man, but it is what is on the inside that God cares most about.

[bramble]

What does perpetural renovation of old buildings and constant moving have to do with Eternal Salvation. Is there something that says moving around and consolidation makes one holy?

What kind of missionaries spend their time moving around in circles from one suburb to another, away then back again?

It's like this...Kenosha, Waukegan, Norfolk, Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Virginia Beach, Norfolk, Norfolk, Norfolk. Wait until draught season.

Somehow Florida and Califorina fit into this too. Now most everyone is in Norfolk painting an old building that used to be a Boys and Girls Club. Why do they stay and continue to be lackeys for these heirs of convicted child molestor, Founding Monster L. R. Davis?

I know that if they walk out they will find Jesus, not Satan!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Bramble:

Quoting: "Why do they stay and continue to be lackeys for these heirs of convicted child molestor . . .?"
End quote.

The same question must be asked of the Roman church. By the by, you did not answer myquestion previously. Any reason? Double standards, perhaps?

[bramble]

Mr. Bramble:

Quoting: "Why do they stay and continue to be lackeys for these heirs of convicted child molestor . . .?"
End quote.

The same question must be asked of the Roman church. By the by, you did not answer myquestion previously. Any reason? Double standards, perhaps?

First of all it is extremely rude that you insist on calling Catholics 'Romans'. I don't care what the dictionary say or what you think it says. My bretheren and I claim the name 'Catholic' as I have explained before. My dictionary says Catholic is another name for Christian.

In answer to your question: Any bishop not appropriately responding to the priest sex abuse scandals in their dioceses have been removed from office. Many have been dealt with by civil authorites. Cardinal Law is now in Rome. Bishop Weakland of Milwaukee was replaced by a much holier man. Weakland did other lesser things that went against Church Law, too, in terms of renovating the Cathedral.

Homosexuals aren't allowed to be ordained in the Catholic Church.

From the News: Wed. 4-16-08
Pope Benedict XVII actually met with victims of priest abuse in Washington DC. They prayed with him. They spoke with him. The Pope actually apologised. These people said they actually felt better.

From www.abusivechurches.org (http://www.abusivechurches.org) Many single men and teenage boys were victims of sexual assault. L. R. Davis alone received 31 years without parole. He died in 1995. His abuse allegations could be traced back to the 1960s in Arkansas. Also, anyone complaining to other pastors in CFCMI was either rebuked or disfellowshipped. In CFCMI pastors have no accountability. Other ministers still active have been involved in the same activites with Davis.

Are you a supporter of L. R. Davis? Ex or current CFCMI?

In the future if you wish to bash Catholics please place your post on the Catholic threads. I'll reply to you there.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

My good friend, I do not bash catholics. I am one. It is the Roman Church that is the problem. The homosexuals in the Roman church pulpit are, only, the latest scandal to rock that religion.

[turningjapanese]

Not to be disrespectful to either of you or to your conversation, but I happen to KNOW there are plenty of homosexuals in the Catholic church. It is my understanding that to practice it constitutes the sin, in that particular faith. Matter of fact, many homosexual priests view the church as a "safe" occupation for themselves.

[bramble]

Not to be disrespectful to either of you or to your conversation, but I happen to KNOW there are plenty of homosexuals in the Catholic church. It is my understanding that to practice it constitutes the sin, in that particular faith. Matter of fact, many homosexual priests view the church as a "safe" occupation for them.

While I know that there are plenty of chaste homosexuals in the Catholic Church and support groups like Courage to encourage chastity. There is certainly room for all. As far as the priesthood goes I think that there is recent change as to whether homosexuals can be ordained. The jury may still be out. I will send you a few links that may help explain.

I agree that there can be a difference between sexual orientation and acting on it.

[turningjapanese]

As for your post regarding the constant renovations and movings....The pastors shaping the mindset of the men then taking advantage of it.

Essentially, "church work" (ie, busy-ness) becomes comparable to worship. The ACTIVITY of religion gives them a sense of purpose and belonging. Soon the work replaces the relationship with God, as the individuals become how the "church" wants them to be. It actually distorts the true practice of faith, since the leaders are equating/judging/promoting spirituality via performance...like painting doors and busting up concrete. If you are not performing, (slaving) then you are accused of not being "spiritual." So the men perform to get that recognition they think they need, from the "leaders" who are merely taking advantage of that "need."

I have read on ABC that men were ordered to do everything from the pastor's yardwork to fixing and washing their cars. And we all know what kind of "jobs" LR was expecting from his lackeys....


If you'd like to know more, read Toxic Faith, pages 97-102.

Peace.

tj

[bramble]

My good friend, I do not bash catholics. I am one. It is the Roman Church that is the problem. The homosexuals in the Roman church pulpit are, only, the latest scandal to rock that religion.

You and I do not define Catholic the same way. BTW: We are on the wrong thread for this conversation. Please go to the Catholic thread. I will speak to you there.

This is the CFCMI thread. If you do not wish to discuss CFCMI with us you are on the wrong board.

[bramble]

As for your post regarding the constant renovations and movings....The pastors shaping the mindset of the men then taking advantage of it.

Essentially, "church work" (ie, busy-ness) becomes comparable to worship. The ACTIVITY of religion gives them a sense of purpose and belonging. Soon the work replaces the relationship with God, as the individuals become how the "church" wants them to be. It actually distorts the true practice of faith, since the leaders are equating/judging/promoting spirituality via performance...like painting doors and busting up concrete. If you are not performing, (slaving) then you are accused of not being "spiritual." So the men perform to get that recognition they think they need, from the "leaders" who are merely taking advantage of that "need."

I have read on ABC that men were ordered to do everything from the pastor's yardwork to fixing and washing their cars. And we all know what kind of "jobs" LR was expecting from his lackeys....


If you'd like to know more, read Toxic Faith, pages 97-102.

Peace.

tj

I read that Pentecostal Churches were much the same way. I guess LRD brought that culture with him from Arkansas. A few posters on one antipent board might have even been EX-CFCMI. Some crack was made that homosexuality would be OK if pastor were involved--reminded me immediately of LRD.

Gotta get that book.

[turningjapanese]

Here is your example of a "busy-body" parishoner being "spiritual":

http://www.cfcmi.org/buildingourfuture/prog/p080419/IMG_0804.jpg


How many churches would post a picture of a guy mopping the floor?
WHO is this activity benefitting?


Hazel's kitchen floor is next...

poor guy...I didn't want to post the pic showing his face. Probably doesn't yet realize that he is part of the slave labor regime. Hopefully he'll figure it out soon...

[bramble]

To most Christians fellowship means socializing, maybe sharing a meal or watching a movie, going for a walk.

CFCMI gives one the impression that fellowship is more consistant with menial work: mopping, chopping up concrete, scraping old paint, putting down new paint.

We need to be a part of a Church to be Christians. We can not separate Christ from the Church, and posess him in isolation. But fellowship must be centered around scripture therefore, true worship must not be replaced with menial tasks.

[bramble]

Christians, first of all, much love. Christians are called to love those who are different than themselves. The Bible doesn't say, "Thy neighbor is like unto thine".

No, The Bible says, "Love thy neighbor as thyself". Who is our neighbor?

The book of Jonah tells of the people of Nineveh--the most dangerous, corrupt city on Earth. Jonah reluctantly delivers God's message after being spat out by a whale. The Ninevites repent, put on sackcloth, fast, pray. Jonah is crestfallen when they repent because he thinks God love only the Israelites.

In the Good Samaritan a Hebrew man who was beaten by robbers is rescued by a Samaritan man who gives him first aid, takes him to an inn and pays his hotel bill. (Gospels)

Peter in a vision is shown that he is to bring Christianity to all the world, not just the Hebrews. (Acts: 10: 9-22)

Pulling oneself out of society is not a way of evangelization; it is unchristian, and psychologically unhealthy--as is living locked up inside a church. Men need female friends, not just guys. Two by Two is unhealthy too! Most teens have more freedom than this and can be trusted with it!

[turningjapanese]

One thing I have NEVER understood was the concept of limiting one's association with "outsiders," and the outside world. Hopefully they are not still practicing this garbage with the single men.

Don't they realize that your "testimony" as a Christian should be able to follow you anywhere, no matter who you associate with? That you are the "living example"...how can you be that if you are only an "example" to those you are "allowed" to associate with?

After all, didn't Jesus hang with the thieves and whores?

So leaders either have a lack of faith in your "Christian Walk," or are using extreme methods of control. Shunning is not a very healthy concept to me, nor is the 2X2.

I have never ever attended any church where they practiced "rubuking", ie public humiliation...which is a form of abuse, by the way.

tj

[bramble]

I see how abusive they are from what I have read. If they teach only each other no wonder their numbers are dropping. I see that they are preaching to the choir--literally and figuratively. I wonder how many of the oldheads who teach actually believe their own BS and how many of them are just going along to get along and to keep from getting their heads from being taken off.

Public Rebukings is very militaristic not very Christian. Public humilitation--not a good thing--any sane person would walk out! The trouble is abused people are often too co-dependent to stand up for themselves (ie: Hazel). She may not have had any job skills, or confidence.

Remember the Shakers, in time they couldn't bring any more recruits in and their numbers waned to zero. Their furniture and compound where they lived is all that is left. Why? Because most people want to marry and have children. This is how we create with God.

2x2--that way they narc on each other and in time don't even think for themselves. This is not Christian. God is love. True love in never coerced. True love requires freedom and choice.

The internet is CFC's worst enemy, IMO. Even their own postings work against them--shhhh! In their photos they look so oppressed, sleep deprived, ill!

50 ways to leave CFC--first 5: 1) read the Bible a chapter at a time--not as a bunch of strung together texts--a la Davis and dump those old Bible studies 2) talk to other Christians who actually understand scripture with an orthodox interpretation. 3) talk to those who have left--they used to be friends, don't be a snob 4) get some exercise, clear your mind 5) look up old family and friends--they miss you.

IMO, it seems that their twisted doctrine is what keeps them in. It is important to seek out more Biblical Christians and Churches.

[bramble]

I do not believe that anyone who knows the truth about L. R. Davis and his sexual abuse of family members, sailors and children can stay and still be in good conscience. Anyone who knows that and still stays probably has a dead conscience. Davis' heirs aren't much better.

I'm rather wonder if Thomas has a dead conscience judging by last Sunday's sermon 5-11-08 (marry within CFC; mothers love changing diapers; jump, shout and have fun) I love how he brags up all his material possessions: like his Mustang GT 5.0! How is that spiritual? Most family men drive sedans. Most ministers don't drive hot muscle cars. It doesn't seem very humble or dignified. His clothes are much better than his staffers.

Some of these guys live on $20 a week. Some of them probably can't afford gasoline anymore at $3.70 a gallon. They probably bike or bus everywhere now. Most of them probably shop at dollar stores. Their suits look like hand-me-downs or Salvation Army duds.

As far as making Church 'fun', those who are looking for entertainment and experiences at Church instead of worship aren't far from becoming athiests. Once experiences has replaced true worship God is no longer present. One must open oneself to God and to the Word of God. To only care about fun and experiences at Church is makes one less receptive to God. That is how to shut God out.

[turningjapanese]

Most people have a good conscience, a true sense of right and wrong.
That's why CFC numbers are near-nonexistant, because those with a good conscience already left.

Many in CFC have compromised. Some are on the fence, so to speak. They know what's right, however, they stay as they deriving some "pay-off" from that situation. Others may be too intimidated to leave right now, but eventually they will. A few may still actually be deceived, and stay, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt here.

"Yes-men" are probably "dead" in conscience. Moral judgements repressed, justified and defended. A bad place to put yourself indeed.

Leaders lack conscience, as well as empathy. One who lacks empathy has no issue exploiting others via emotional manipulation. The "pastors" make this blatantly obvious when they say one thing yet do the opposite. Lacking empathy, lying (half-truths included) and being quick to anger when confronted are HALLMARK CHARACTERISTICS of VARIOUS MENTAL DISORDERS. Grandiose delusional thinking, (ie, "largest Jesus-name ministry in the world!") and having major CONTROL ISSUES are also dead-givaways. Look it up yourself.

Sociopaths like LR also fall into this realm. Unfortuately, they CANNOT be rehabilitated. Just ask Manson about that. Interestingly enough, it was Freud who coined the term "moral insanity," for those in this catagory.

I don't give CFC credit for much, but I do agree when they say:
"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways."

CFC does try and put on a nice front, though. But their music still sucks.

[bramble]

I think there are those who have enough sense of humor to see the folly of CFC and have enough conscience and inside knowledge to see the evil in CFC. It seems that some have compartmentalized LR Davis' misdeeds away from the misdeeds of the rest of the cult/clan. Are their consciences dead? Probably, in some cases--or maybe they are in denial. Maybe their consciences are numb.

If their consciences are not dead then then the Holy Spirit is working through them and guiding them out. What they need to do is a daily examination of conscience. (That is the one thing Ed says that is true. He has a different name for it.) Then they must pray to God for forgiveness so the Holy Spirit will be able to work better through them.

When CFC speaks of being 'double minded' they don't mean indecisive.
They mean those who are looking to things outside of CFC. IMO, those 'double minded' ones are the least brain washed. Are they less stable emotionally? Yes, they are because they see the insanity of CFC and are now questioning it and it drives them mad.

The other thing is that those in CFC are craving spiritual growth that doesn't seem to come. These guys seem to blame themselves. In reality some of the blame is theirs for staying. No one can grow spiritually in that hole. Most of the blame belongs to the pastors for not leading their flock better. There are probably more holy guys in CFC than all the pastors put together. If the pastors aren't more holy than the flock then their flock will not grow spiritually. The pastors think they are more holy than they are and equate health and wealth with holiness.

There are those staffers who know the true situation and stay because they think they can fix things.We've read their stories time and again. Some are fence sitting, as you say. They may leave in time. The fact remains it is the inner circle oldheads who are most likely to leave. Why? Their health is failing. They know now that they have been had. If they are truely Christians then they would have to leave once they realize these pastors aren't about to change. Cult experts do not understand that those in the inner circle of CFC are the most likely to leave. This is not the norm for most other cults.

It kinds of reminds me of turning on the TV but, as usual, nothing good is on. One can either wait for a better show that will never come or turn it off and find something better to do with one's life. It just takes a while for it to sink in that no better shows will come along--just more mediocrity.

Griping is one thing. Having the guts to do something about it (ie leave CFC) is another. So often people gripe when they could do something about their situation. Have you even known someone to complain about something they bought instead of returning it to the store and complaining to the store that it doesn't work. There are many complainers. How many have the initiative to take the bull by the horns?

Keep on praying! God Bless!

[bramble]

I was just going over some of the old ABC threads. I still amazes me that these guys may still be in CFC because of a fear of going to Hell. I wish they would get some gumption and a clue. God isn't just some big meanie with a club who just wants to bop up over the head the first second we mess up. He loves us as His Own and want us to live with Him in Heaven and be happy forever.

I don't equate being miserable with being spiritual, either.

Considering that L. R. Davis 1) was evil and 2) is dead, I wonder why more of these Single Men don't feel more liberated. Considering the sick, twisted, perverted lifestyle of Davis and his subsequent conviction can his threats be taken seriously anymore.

Also considering all the lies flying around CFC we must remember that Satan it a liar, the Father of Lies and a murderer from the beginning. Can the Holy Spirit live in such a place of lies?

I know that within CFC it seems to be Thomas and Paine and their families who still revere him--just from reading their sermon notes. I wonder how the rest of CFC feels about Davis. Those new guys just coming up will likely take it hook, line and sinker. They may not have been born more that 20 years ago!

[turningjapanese]

Just read your post about the "pastors not leading the flock better."

REALITY CHECK: THESE GUYS are NOT pastors! They are NOT "annointed," God-Led" or "spiritual leaders." They lack credentials, education and human decency.

They ARE sorry excuses for "business-men" that happen to run a 501(c)(3) organization founded by a rapist.

Bramble, you keep comparing CFCMI to a REAL CHURCH. It isn't. It's a money-making outfit that's built on nepotism, corruption, greed, hypocrisy and lies.

The so-called "pastors" are nothing but con-men that married into the family cover-up. These "leaders" are expert ACTORS...that are very much in love with themselves, by the way. Some of them still "brag" about them good ole drug-dealin' days...you can't change a manipulating criminal personality anymore than you can change a leopard's spots. These scheisters are living proof: they just changed venue, and made the Jesus the "drug of choice," that's all. They have NO OTHER MEANS of supporting themselves...no education, skills, training, nothing; although I think Pete Paine was a cook once...

They are NOT "qualified" to preach anything, yet their acting skills, control tactics and guilt trips keeps them laughing to the bank every week. (And they have to rely on the BS, because not only are their sermons bland and boring, they don't make a lick of sense.)

I think it's ironic how they preach about SATAN. Because if the congregation focuses on the "evil of Satan," MAYBE they WON'T be thinking of the obvious EVIL in the pulpit, past or present. And the Davis Legacy reeks of it.

[bramble]

Just read your post about the "pastors not leading the flock better."

REALITY CHECK: THESE GUYS are NOT pastors! They are NOT "annointed," God-Led" or "spiritual leaders." They lack credentials, education and human decency.

They ARE sorry excuses for "business-men" that happen to run a 501(c)(3) organization founded by a rapist.

Bramble, you keep comparing CFCMI to a REAL CHURCH. It isn't. It's a money-making outfit that's built on nepotism, corruption, greed, hypocrisy and lies.

The so-called "pastors" are nothing but con-men that married into the family cover-up. These "leaders" are expert ACTORS...that are very much in love with themselves, by the way. Some of them still "brag" about them good ole drug-dealin' days...you can't change a manipulating criminal personality anymore than you can change a leopard's spots. These scheisters are living proof: they just changed venue, and made the Jesus the "drug of choice," that's all. They have NO OTHER MEANS of supporting themselves...no education, skills, training, nothing; although I think Pete Paine was a cook once...

They are NOT "qualified" to preach anything, yet their acting skills, control tactics and guilt trips keeps them laughing to the bank every week. (And they have to rely on the BS, because not only are their sermons bland and boring, they don't make a lick of sense.)

I think it's ironic how they preach about SATAN. Because if the congregation focuses on the "evil of Satan," MAYBE they WON'T be thinking of the obvious EVIL in the pulpit, past or present. And the Davis Legacy reeks of it.

I couldn't agree more. Thomas and Paine are just a couple of sailors who married into the Davis family. For all I know they could have had BCD from the Navy. I wonder if they went UA or got into drugs. I know Thomas had/has a drug problem. Maybe that's where all the money goes. IMO drugs and money are their drugs of choice. The don't even know Jesus, or they would behave differently.

They are self appointed, not annointed.

They use the FEAR OF HELL to keep people in their place. I wonder it still works. You are right they are in an obvious state of sin consider how they have bilked people for their time, money and so on. There is so much corruption, lies, stealing, sex scandals, I wonder is there is even one righteous man left there. They need to focus on the evil within not the imagined evil without. They need to look in the mirror.

BTW, I wonder how their collection is looking these days. I doubt they are getting much money anymore.

Their sermons are incoherent because they are not lead by the Holy Spirit. They have no real theology training. They probably never studied Scripture. They probably just open the Concordance and the Bible then start throwing a speech together to support their opinion of the day. Paine and Thomas may be too mentally ill to put a coherent thought together. A few of the other pastors seem almost allright. I wouldn't join. They're not that good.

[bramble]

Do you suppose that most of thse Single Men stay in CFC because:


they are afraid of going to Hell?

or afraid of being on their own?

too prideful about the worth of CFC?

hoping that they can fix CFC?


I think that given Davis' track record he has become laughing stock among some within some in CFC. So any threats he made about Hell are empty. His scandalous lifestyle makes him the most culpable--even now. Only God can send us to Hell--actually it is our sins--we choose it for ourselves.

Leaving CFC is not the same as leaving God. Leaving CFC is not Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Leaving CFC is actually a sane choice, not a mortal sin. Leaving is not a sin at all.

I'm sure some are afraid of being on their own. They have brushed off old friends and family members. They are getting on in years and set in their ways. Nowdays, lifestyle changes, career changes, even going back to school is not unusual for middle aged people. I have one friend who married in his early 50's and other friends who married late, too.

Pride--Harrol brought this up on another thread. I think some are too prideful to admit that they made a mistake. It may have something to do with their upbringing. It may have something to do with the CFC culture.

They want to fix CFC--cults can't be fixed. Their bylaws, if they have any, seem to keep things from being fixed. The General Pastor is infalliable, and not open to criticism. He is 'God's Annointed' just ask him! Sounds like a king to me. Remember how even with David and Solomon their power went to their heads!

Leadership likes things just the way they are. Even if Thomas, Paine, and Lantis quit or were removed from power by other means, others would be waiting in the wings to take their place--perhaps Adam Paine or Thomas' sons-in-laws. Clearly CFCMI is a kingdom and the Eunichs are the serfs.

[harrol]

Yes they fear going to hell. Some belive there is no better place for them that God actually on purpose sent them there even if it means they suffer and suffer. Several who actually have tendencies towards homosexual feelings feel justified by being apart of staff. I believe if Paine and Thomas were gone for whatever reason the "church" would collapse. Adam would not try to carry on at least the Adam I knew.

[bramble]

Yes they fear going to hell. Some belive there is no better place for them that God actually on purpose sent them there even if it means they suffer and suffer. Several who actually have tendencies towards homosexual feelings feel justified by being apart of staff. I believe if Paine and Thomas were gone for whatever reason the "church" would collapse. Adam would not try to carry on at least the Adam I knew.

Are you saying that they believe God wants them to go to Hell or stay in CFC or both?

I don't see SUFFERING they way these guys do as being part of Christianity. It is abuse and an abomination. Some suffering in this world is inevevitable. Suffering when united with Christ's is redemptive--taking Jesus' yoke and handing him ours. I know God hears their prayers. I'm not sure these single men can hear God or can discern Him if they do. CFC suffering is injustice perpetuated from within. Satan must be having a chuckle at the real Christians within being battered by leadership of so-called Church. I know God doesn't want this abuse for them.

This intense fear of Hell is so ironic. Davis didn't live as one who wanted to go to Heaven. It's not my place to judge him, however.

God is infinitely merciful as well as infinitely just. I'm apalled they don't see God as any more than a harsh judge. Do they presume Heaven for themselves or think that they won't be saved no matter what? Somewhere in between?

Those who have homosexual or bisexual tendancies would be much healthier outside of CFC. Cramming a bunch of single men into tight quarters that makes a submarine berthing area look like a stateroom on a luxury liner is inhumane and un Christian. IMO it is a situation might actually have been intended to arouse homosexual desires. Remember the Eunichs were originally Davis's playthings. Now their job is to pay for Thomas' and Paine's playthings.

These staffers seem to have an extremely high opinion of themselves. This is also ironic.

I'm glad Adam would not try to carry on the CFC tradition. Do you suppose that Paine and Thomas will take the money and run and abandon everyone and everything right there in Norfolk and let CFC go belly up?

As a recent walkout how did you see morale in CFC? I wish there were a good way to reach these guys still there--to touch their hearts. Some still there see it for what it is--a farce--yet they stay. That is the sad part.


God Bless!

[harrol]

Sorry I was unclear they fear they will go to hell if they leave. Morale differs between different people. The non-thinkers morale is high especially after a pastor pep talk. Amonst the thinkers it is low I saw mainly stubborn resolve rather than high morale.

[bramble]

Sorry I was unclear they fear they will go to hell if they leave. Morale differs between different people. The non-thinkers morale is high especially after a pastor pep talk. Amonst the thinkers it is low I saw mainly stubborn resolve rather than high morale.

I've read a lot about this fear of hell. I still am shocked the more I read about it. Those so-called "hidden Bible studies" are really whacked and do speak about why not to leave. I was reading a few of them. IMO, the aren't Biblical just some man made doctrine to keep the guys in.

Stubborn resolve--stubborness may be why some joined CFC in the first place. Those same persons seem to think CFC can grow and can be fixed. At some point they must realize that the Pastors are riding the gravy train and like it that way.

I think these thinkers are the ones who know they ought to leave, but think they can't get out of CFC and now it's too late--so they think. Do you see them that way?

Is there a good way to get through to our friends still in CFC? I know there are a few fence sitters, just from what little I have been able to observe from afar.

What, in a few words, I know you're busy, is/are the main reason(s) people leave? I've heard Lantis scares people away.

Do you forsee any more major Church wide walkouts or expulsions like in 1999 or 2003?

[harrol]

Most people leave because their not indoctirnated yet i.e. the newly baptized. The people who stay around for awhile and then leave are because they have suffered too much or seen too much corruption. Yes some of the thunkers stay simply because they have been there so long. Others because they believe it to be a mortal sin to leave. I see no more major walk-outs because they do not have enough people to constiotute a major walk-out. Attrition at the rate of a slow trickle will do them in.

[bramble]

Most people leave because their not indoctirnated yet i.e. the newly baptized. The people who stay around for awhile and then leave are because they have suffered too much or seen too much corruption. Yes some of the thunkers stay simply because they have been there so long. Others because they believe it to be a mortal sin to leave. I see no more major walk-outs because they do not have enough people to constiotute a major walk-out. Attrition at the rate of a slow trickle will do them in.

What do you estimate the overall numbers of CFCMI to be after consolidation?

Church as a whole:

Pastors:

Staff 'Eunichs':

Oldheads:

Families:

Children:

[John Cady]

Church as a whole:

Pastors: 5 - Two senior, 3 assistant

Staff 'Eunuchs': 30

Oldheads: 20

Families: 40

Children: 30

I am guessing from the recent photos. Total congregation is now probably less than 100.

[turningjapanese]

Wow....that's all?! Yeah, Jesus has spoken all right.

Just wait till those bills start rolling in...I wonder if Ed or Pete have some extra ca$h shoved in their sock drawer. There is NO WAY a congregation that size can support that "money pit" of a building, fund a ghost college and provide for the "royal family."

I see they have baptized 2 new people, (women, no less!) so that will add to their collective. Maybe they could raid the Sri Lanka collection jar....oops, no money there either (not even the dollar I sent, which probably ended up in someone's pocket). They better hurry up and hire for that grant writer position, before all the people that were planning on giving to a molester's church decide to give it to someone else. (early bird gets the worm, you know.)

Now I'm REALLY looking forward to their "founder's day" shindig, where Pete usually gives his corny rah-rah peptalk-type speech. I want to see how he's gonna rationalize this one. Maybe it will really get GOOD, and he can point the finger at Ed. We'll see.

Peace, tj

[bramble]

If you look at this board and boards similar to this one. If you study the teachings of CFCMI and similar groups it gets really confusing.

There must be hundreds if not thousands of churches that claim that there is no salvation outside of them and that one must be baptised into their unique group using their particular formula for baptism to go to Heaven. That is a lot of groups! One couldn't possibly join them all. There simply isn't time. Or is there?

Logistics is another barrier to joining them all to ensure salvation. Twelve Tribes is located in New York, Tennesee and other places. UBF has chapters mostly in the north and the midwest. The WAY is a mostly underground group. I don't know where they are at present. CFCMI is now mainly in Norfolk. I just wanted to name a few.

Baptism--I could be baptised by each and every one of these groups just to ensure that I was baptised into the right 'Church' using every imaginable version of baptism. This might be a good way to cover my bets.

Worship services--All of these groups have mandatory worship services. I couldn't possibly travel from one to the other and make all of them. If CFC wants me to be at services on Wednesday, but so does Twelve Tribes and so does University Bible Fellowship then I have to disappoint someone or risk going to hell.

What if I were to attend one service, board an airplane to make services at the next one the following day? The only problem with this is that I wouldn't have the money as I would have had to split it up between all of these groups to ensure my salvation.

Labor--I could not be a free laborer for any of these groups. I would be much to busy spending their money and their time hopping from group to group and state to state. I wouldn't be working my way to heaven. I would be bussing my way to heaven.

I wonder if God would look more favorably upon me for joining several groups as I would be searching harder for the One True Church than the next guy!

The real question is how do we find THE TRUTH?

[bramble]

I am not sure which thread to put this on. CFCMI has put up a glitzy promo with lots of groovy disco music--typical production stock music.

Pastor Ulysse, I presume, is the one speaking. He goes on to say about how sailors refer to their ship as, "my". Then he says, "Christian Fellowship Church is my Church". He later says, "I don't know what I would do if Christian Fellowship Church would disappear, if if didn't exist anymore. I'm not planning to do anything else than what God has called me to do right here". We then hear lots of applause and shouts of "Amen!". He seemed a bit sad, but sincere. He is not over the top like Thomas and Paine.

I wonder what he is trying to say! I wonder if they are finally in dire financial problems. The rest of the country is trying to stay out of a recession. I imagine CFC is feeling the pinch, too. CFC in their heyday, in the '70's and '80's, the economy was going gangbusters after coming out of a similar economic situation as our country is now facing in 2008-09. I think this pastor sees the problems CFC is having very clearly.

[bramble]

Of late, I have been reading much about the plight of recently freed Jaycee Dugard and her two adolescent daughters. The mind control her captor and abuser, Garrido wielded against Jaycee, their daughters and his wife is incredible. Maybe Mrs. Garrido could have turned him in or released Jaycee when he went back to prison for a brief sentence in 1993.

Maybe Jaycee could have escaped. Once she had two children in tow this would have been more difficult, possibly.

The point is, one sees a similar plight of the men in CFCMI. The difference is that they are not physically locked up in a shed that doesn't open from the inside. Their shackles are mental ones, like Mrs. Garrido's lawyer, alleges she has. I do not excuse her. I do not excuse Hazel Davis for similar reasons. To not speak out against evil is to participate in evil.

The Single Men in CFCMI are actually most like Jaycee. CFCMI leadership is most like Philip Garrido. The main difference is that they could walk away. No one is putting a gun to their collective heads. They are scared to venture out.

FEAR OF HELL? Well, there were Christians long before L.R. Davis was born. To leave his 'Church' would seem scary for someone who see this existence as 'normal'. Sometimes dysfunctional seems more comfortable even though it is far from what is normal or healthy. The Single Men need to shake of their mental chains as they know the truth of CFCMI and Davis. Stop whitewashing Davis' headstone!! Hanging on and still believing promises of improvements and growth is futile.

To be sure, God doesn't favor CFCMI over religious organizations. If He did they would be growing by leaps and bounds. They wouldn't be $16,000 in the hole each and every week. (Most pastors live on about $10,000 to $15,000 a year, plus room and board.)

A lot of them, if they even dare to read, FACTnet would probably:

1) block this criticism out
2) think anyone who doesn't LOOOVE L. R. Davis and his 'Church' is the Antichrist.
3) believe that anyone who doesn't share their Old Testament view of Christianity is Hellbound. Newsflash: There was no Christianity before the Birth of Jesus Christ.

[onetime]

Sometimes dysfunctional seems more comfortable even though it is far from what is normal or healthy. The Single Men need to shake of their mental chains as they know the truth of CFCMI and Davis.

According to the LR Davis trial transcripts, Valour College Professor Richie Snow and Filthy Dick Brand certainly thought that dysfunction was quite “comfortable.” Practicing a special form of “in situ organic colonoscopy,” Richie and Filthy Dick selflessly helped to personally “explore” the large colons of various CFCMI members. Real pioneers!

Stop whitewashing Davis' headstone!!

No, start whitewashing LR’s headstone. I call upon the pigeons of the world to whitewash that monument with pigeonsh#t!

Newsflash: There was no Christianity before the Birth of Jesus Christ.

Along with the “History Channel,” all forms of news have been outlawed by Ed (“I’m spotting again”) Thomas Jr. as instruments of the devil to destroy the faith of the CFCMI brethren.

[bramble]

Along with the “History Channel,” all forms of news have been outlawed by Ed (“I’m spotting again”) Thomas Jr. as instruments of the devil to destroy the faith of the CFCMI brethren.

Actually, I hope they study history. It could be a way out. Notice how Ed can listen to music or watch TV that others are forbidden to partake of?

Any walkouts are led of God, not the devil. I think the devil likes to keep people unhappy environments, hostages situation, living unproductive lives. God wants us to use our unique gifts to help others and to praise Him.

I heard a blurb by a prominent Christian radio personality that the Nazis made people in prison camps do meaningless menial work, like moving a dirt mound from one end of the compound to the other. The next day they were made to move it back, and so on... So, some of these prisoners went literally insane. Some committed suicide. I'm guess they, too, had issues with negativity. :rolleyes:

BUT...God wants to set us free. He wants to live with us for all eternity--each and every one of us. This is why he sent Jesus. Jesus died for each of us individually. He would have given His life to save just one person. Any CFC walkouts are led of God.

No one can be Born Again and engage in embezzlement, tax evasion, sodomy, child abuse, kidnapping, rape, lying...To turn a blind eye and deaf ear is to be an accomplice in these crimes.

BTW: Mrs. Garrido may get the same sentence as her husband as she could have freed Jaycee in 1993 while he was in prison for a parole violation. Maybe Hazel could have helped those little Mexican boys, but chose not to! Who knows?

[turningjapanese]

I read Garrido's "manifesto." Lots and lots of self-indulgent sociopathic ramble that made no coherrent sense. Very grandiose; delusional thought processes.

Like lots of other religious nutcases, who latch onto the omnipotence of God, Garrido filed a 501(c)(3) so he could start a "church" from these "God-led directives."

Men like Garrido and Davis should be locked away forever; just like Manson. You can't rehabilitate them. They are are a complete menace to society and anyone who enables child molesters should have their head checked as well. (Especially those that do it in the "name of God.")

The entire Davis clan was complicit in LR's crimes. If Davis did indeed infect others with his filthy syphilis, which resulted in miscarriages, that would make him a baby-killer in my book.
Not a "Godly" label to wear, is it, Ed? But that is the truth of it. When you think of all the damage CFC has done; all the people that have gone through the revolving doors of that cult, it's just amazing. Dysfunctional doesn't even describe it....I rarely use the term "evil" but that's what it is....all stemming from rampant mental illness.

Sick B@st@rds.

[turningjapanese]

So they have one of their "transcript superstars" leading the BS (Bible Studies).

Apparently, this wimpy guy nearly goes ape on his boss, who won't let him take a gay bus trip down to Norfolk for some butt-lovin'.

The moral of the story is NOT to get angry, because then you will ruin your Christian "testimony".

That's pretty weird, because I think his "testimony" was ruined around page 1189 in the transcrips.

icky nasty cult

[turningjapanese]

That sucking zombie "NIGHTSTALKER" should have been charged with sexual misconduct. (at the very least)


http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-misconduct/

Go ahead, and lead the Bible Studies.....and pass the hubcap!

[gregory63]

Every once in a while I have this dream where I'm still in High school. I'm 40 odd years old, like I am now, yet I still haven't graduated. At first I don't realize how long I've been there, then I start thinking, "hey, I'm 40 years old, shouldn't I be doing something else by now?"

That's what it's like still being at cfc after all we've learned. A never ending nightmare like groundhog day where you go over the same things over and over again, and never grow up. Maybe like Peter Pan and the lost boys.

[turningjapanese]

Even reading over the sermons and Bible Studies, the redundancy is obvious. Guess the zombies don't notice the brainless rehash they spew year after year.


I have dreams about my teeth falling out. Those oldheads probably have the same dream, except it's their reality---ending up a decrepit fool with the mentality of a 17 year-old, passing the hubcap for Paine and Co.

[onetime]

The title of this thread intrigues me: “What Do They Believe & Why Do They Stay?”

Who really cares what these creeps believe. Does it really matter?

You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 2:19Belief has nothing to do with anything in my (not so) humble opinion. One can say or profess anything one wants to. Demons do the same. It’s not what one says that counts, it’s what one does that matters.

We all know what these heathen do—ad nauseum. We know what they believe by watching what they do.

Why do they stay?

Why do battered wives stay with their abusive husbands?

We might as well ask “What does Charles Manson believe and why doesn’t he change?”

Food for thought.

[gregory63]

Even reading over the sermons and Bible Studies, the redundancy is obvious. Guess the zombies don't notice the brainless rehash they spew year after year.


I have dreams about my teeth falling out. Those oldheads probably have the same dream, except it's their reality---ending up a decrepit fool with the mentality of a 17 year-old, passing the hubcap for Paine and Co.

Hey, they say that teeth falling out is interpreted as the fear of losing people you love.

The most comical part about the never-ending baptism bible study is the way the suck -ups write it all down in their little day-timers(like pinky, they have no idea what "the brain" is going to be doing tomorrow night, lol) , and go back and forth 'sharing' this "brand new idea" that Pester shared. They even go back to their men only places and break down the obvious into unintelligible mush that dancing bears couldn't make interesting. It reminds me of 1984. Heck, everything reminds me of 1984 nowadays.
The truth is what the party says it is, Winston.
:)

[turningjapanese]

Hmmmmm.....I thought it meant I have a crush on my dentist.

That never-ending Baptism Bible Study is a an example of a cult's tendency to "major on the minor." Cults take a small aspect of a mainstream belief (ie, baptism) and make it their prominent focus of their religious practice. (along with fundraising).

CFCMI heavily promotes their "style" of baptism as the only acceptable way to be "saved", diverting attention away from the obvious hypocrisy and corruption within the organization.

Whatever. Their brains are scrambled anyways.

[bramble]

Hmmmmm.....I thought it meant I have a crush on my dentist.

That never-ending Baptism Bible Study is a an example of a cult's tendency to "major on the minor." Cults take a small aspect of a mainstream belief (ie, baptism) and make it their prominent focus of their religious practice. (along with fundraising).

CFCMI heavily promotes their "style" of baptism as the only acceptable way to be "saved", diverting attention away from the obvious hypocrisy and corruption within the organization.

Whatever. Their brains are scrambled anyways.

My point all along when I started this thread was that their 'ONENESS' 'JESUS NAME ONLY' theology starts out as "This will save you. You will be born again" It then leads into, "If you leave you will become 'unsaved'." It then leads into 'EUNICHSHIP' Now you really can never leave. You would be "Sinning against the Holy Spirit". But not in reality.

If you try to tell someone in CFC that they have a right to leave, and still be Christian, and still go to Heaven, they would probably get really, really upset and go off. I've seen it happen. Haven't we all?

[turningjapanese]

If you try to tell someone in CFC that they have a right to leave, and still be Christian, and still go to Heaven, they would probably get really, really upset and go off. I've seen it happen. Haven't we all?


I've seen a "brother" go batsh*t crazy over an innocuous comment.

So much for the "testimony"!!