Living with the Living Word Fellowship

[jlintott]

Do you have some good memories?
Did you have some noteworthy experiences with the people of the LWF?
Did God really meet your heart?
Was it real, or just another passing dream?

Please tell about your experiences in the LWF.

-JL

[jlintott]

Learning to forgive.

That is probably THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. To survive is important, but to actually forgive with your eyes wide open to the facts is indeed a beautiful thing.

It is perfectly natural to want to get even with the thing which assaults you. To bring it down with a vengance.

Forgiveness does not originate from within the soul of a person.


It comes as a gift, regardless of a person's circumstances/situation.

My longing is to forgive. (and to know it is so).

Don't you think so too? Isn't it time to begin the healing? Can we move forward without it?

Jesus died for this liberating reason.

Oh, God, take us there!

"To the cross, where you died for our sins"

[jlintott]

There were some really interesting folks involved in LWF. I lost touch with many, but I do remember
them well.

Not so much the high profile.

I am speaking about some rank and file ones, the ones who had real life wisdom, genuine love; a shepherd's heart. Ones who have seen the big picture. I was mentored by just such a one as that.

To my Illumination, that was evidence of a true follower, a vessel being used by God.

I am inspired to this day by that person.

-JL

P.S.= Tell your stories!

[jimmie_]

JL - As per our back & forth on the old forum, I also have some fond memories of some of the folks I knew during the couple of years I skirted around the dges of The Walk.
Lately it's been interesting to revisit some of those memories.
However, that was long ago and I can't recall to many names.
Also, my own spiritual path is very different now; more personal and, frankly, much more satisfying - not so plagued with doubt and self-loathing as when I was younger.

[winterland]

jlintott: Spaceman here-they took my name away and won't let me post under Spaceman anymore-its been very hard-thankfully, Winterland is kind hearted enough to let me post under her name.

Try as I might, I regret to say I can't think of a single good memory from 6 years in the walk ('78-'84).

However, I suspect that my heavy involvement with the Canadian Region of Alberta Professional.mourners.society (CRAP) may taint my perspective. We're also known as the Professional Mourners Society (PMS), the CRAP club and the CRAP team. We're a very scripturally sound organization (Amos 5:16).

Now, if you were to ask me to tell you some good memories about our cat, I could go on for hours. For example, we have changed the lyrics to the 50's tune "Sunshine, lollypops and rainbows" to:
Chicken beaks and feathers and tails and
Fish heads and tails and entrails
That's what you get when you open a can of standard cat chow
etc. (I'll spare you the next 6 verses)

As far as the walk, forgiveness, and moving on goes, I have followed the PUSS program to scattered success: Perspective, Understanding, Simplicity and Silliness

If you ever want to discuss perspective, cats or the walk, drop a line to:
strhouse@telusplanet.net

[winterland]

jlintott:

I just thought of a memory that dear Winterland reminded me of.

Winterland was at Shiloh working in the kitchen and a group of people had come to Shiloh for one of the feasts. Some were helping her in the kitchen cutting up hot peppers to freeze them.

One very proper pastor-type older fellow was whole heartedly helping, but had to excuse himself as nature was calling.

He returned to the kitchen moving much faster than when he had left and whispered to Winterland "you've got to be really careful how you wipe after you've been handling these hot peppers".

[truth_is_a_choice]

JL- Hi! I like your thread here. What happened to the one about RD? It was here -then it just dissapeared???
I remember one time a group of us kids were playing outside the church. In the corner, right up against the church was the biggest pile of pooh we had ever seen. It was so big, we were talking about it. My friend told me that it wasn't dog pooh. Apparently one of the brothers got locked out of the church at a very needful time. I don't know why she knew that, or told me. But theres a memory that doesn't go away.
I don't know if its a fond, good memory -or just gross.
TIAC

[truth_is_a_choice]

P.S. Perhaps the memory doesn't go away because by then it had turned white. No one ever cleaned it up. As children we were fascinated by this color change. We stood there a long time, just looking and talking.

(sorry -I'm not a very funny person)

[truth_is_a_choice]

I do remember many people fondly and cared for them very much. I thought it was real, at the time. Some of it probably was. I mean really -most of the people that were there, it would seem to me were there because they were seeking something good. I doubt all people go into a church being extremely well versed in scripture and at the ready to discern every twist and turn. Isn't that one of the major reasons people go to church -to learn the scriptures, to find God -Jesus, ....just seems logical to me.
TIAC

[jlintott]

TIAC:

I was never much inclined to potty talk, but whoever performed that particular movement you have recalled must have really been a heavy pottier; a real potty animal. Jim Morrison could, and did party all night long. He OD'd one night. Lights out for the lizard king. His bloated body was found in a bathtub by his junkie girlfriend. I guess it was an answer to an authority type release prayer. What a testimony! Don't that just beat hell? Like Johnny. Cash said: Gods Gonna Cut You Down. See You Tube.

I'm trying to conger up some really great memories from my walk days.

At the "Prophet's House" (a home for unwed brothers)...

Steve Bell used to listen to one song on this record player over and over and over. When asked to play something else, he would say: "oh yeah, I'll put on something fresh and new". Of course , then he would just play that same old tune a couple more times just to savor the moment!

Funny? I thought it was about a 9.5, A real bell clapper.

-JL

[jlintott]

Those people! Some real bell-clappers. I really learned alot about how people really are there..

I think of all those different types of people coming together in one Accord.
Who would have thought that Japanese Econo-Box would have been so popular among the chosen few?

I wish I could have recorded a few random movies of the odd moments

Like spending communal money on steaks, then watching a brother cook them over briquettes wet with lighter fluid. OMG-the fallen expressions on everyones face when we tasted them! kerosene!

Like another brother cooking spagetti for everybody, and a really excellent sauce. Later on, we found out that a two finger dollop of canned dog food was added to stretch the recipe! So Funny!

-JL

[truth_is_a_choice]

JL;
sneaking dog food into the food ....ironic.

was there any other meat?

no one got beat up over that huh? Seems like even a Christian might stretch themselves a bit over something like that -just kidding, sort of.

An ex-relative of mine said he was once held against his will in a brother's house. Not sure when, why or for how long. probably the 70-s. he wasn't harmed or anything, that i know of. This was in California.

TIAC

[truth_is_a_choice]

JL:

Watched Johnny Cash on you tube....nice beat, beat, beat.

My ex relative, wonderful guy...loved him very much. Flamboyantly feminine. Lived in the south nearly all his life, still dresses like a tourist. Socks up to the knees, shorts, really skinny legs, hawaiin like printed shirts. handsome guy. Tall, big ears, dark hair, cleft pallot. Skinny. Usually works in the food service industry as a waiter or a chef. Sometimes he could be sadistic, I could see him putting a bit of dog food into the spaghetti. Spaghetti was his favorite dish to make. He could doctor up anything so one wouldn't know. In fact thats what he made for me the last time I saw him, in '97. Remember anyone like that?

TIAC

[jlintott]

TIAC-

The dog food incident happened at a 70's brother's house in San Diego.
The creative ingredients were not put together out of necessity. I believe ground beef was used as the main meat.
The guy who did this is still a good friend of mine to this day. He is still a bit of a ham-and he was truly a funny person who enjoyed being a good=natured prankster.

No beatings occured. That could have happened, though. Some of these guys were not too entertained. But looking back on it now it seems just too hilarious.

-JL

[truth_is_a_choice]

JL; you have a good sense of humor. Gave my girlfriend venison sausage 10 yrs. ago, there were tears, spitting & words like "bambi" once she discovered it was venison. Don't think she ever forgave me for it.
Nice that you have kept in touch with some people. We lost touch with everyone, except for my aunt who we rarely see -shes a couple states away (near shiloh). I have lots of fond memories from Florida, but that church I don't count as much because they were loosely affiliated then broke off in the early 80-s quietly reasoning the church was a cult. (theological differences).
Was serious 'bout my exrelative -curious; trying to place him prior to mid. 70-s. He was in Cali. Involved in the walk.
TIAC

[jlintott]

TIAC-

I think you meant a cleft chin. Either way, your description doesn't ring a bell. Sorry-JL


TIAC, Keep writing stuff. Your Mom too. I like what you both have to sway.

For some reason, I'm feeling alot more resolved in regards to my LW years.

This factnet is a bit like a vicarious AA meeting. Everybody saying what's on their mind, and all. Then we sort of feel less isolated while we try to sort things out for the better.

-Works for me.

-JL

[mike_j]

A couple memories...I don't want to characterize them as good or bad since I was taught many years ago that these terms were irrelevant:

1. A brother in our communal home used to work on his car in his room. He, of course, had to take it apart first. He was very involved with his blue Mustang, and became very sensitive if you questioned his practices (how and where he decided to work on the vehicle).
2. A toilet in the communal home was stolen. Stolen or borrowed. If it was borrowed, it was never returned (to my knowledge...I was in the home for about a year after its disappearance, so it was possible it eventually was returned). Since the communal home (6-8 brothers) had only one bath, and one toilet, the disappearance of this toilet was an issue at the time. Thank God there was violent intercession filling most of hours so there wasn't time for bitterness over its loss to fester.

BTW, I just found these new threads...thanks to an email from my friend 'sliderJim'
Hi everybody!


p.s. even at this late date, if anyone on these threads has info about the missing toilet...firsthand, secondhand, hearsay...doesn't matter....please email me at missingbrotherstoilet@killnephilim.com

[jlintott]

Hello Mike j.----

An early version of a "no flush toilet", i.e=a tall funnel; might just have nipped the communal bitterness in the bud before it had time to manifest itself.

I personally have found various bulky items (furniture, cars, fixtures) in tall grass. Were there any unexplored grassy areas nearby?

Perhaps the landlord was unappreciative of the 6-8 brothers living in one house, and everyone "yellin' and howling" in the living room so much. He might have pulled that water closet outta there when everyone was at a key service.

[jimmie_]

As I've made clear in some of my other posts, here and on other related threads, my involvement with The Walk was limited to skirting around the edges as a teenager during '69-'70.
I visited RD's church several times, went up to Brother Steven's church in Sepulveda a couple of times, and visited a couple of other loosely "affiliated" charismatic churches in California. All memorable as interesting peeks through the window of a couple of wild ministries.
I was a regular at the bible studies in Pt Loma led by David Cokas in '69 - '70. I have very found memories of us "kids" gettin' very full of the Holy Ghost at some of those meetings - the living room of that house had a two-story floor-to-ceiling window looking over the lights of NTC and downtown SD - pretty dramatic.
There were about 6-8 of us (including a couple of very pretty young girls who lived out on Fuerte Blvd. in El Cajon) who hung out together as David's "inner circle." We would have special "prayer meetings" in his basement-room of that house. Mostly it was David "getting a word" about our various teenage soap-operas.
I remember some of us receiving water baptisms at Ocean Beach. David's uncle was there with us that time - I think he really enjoyed the young girls in their bathing suits.
We used to wander the tide pools around Prospect in La Jolla at night - praying and just hanging out.
I remember going to record stores all over SD with David to listen to "The Who: Live at Leeds." It was his favorite record at the time, how could I not love the guy!?
After a couple of really weird Sundays at RD's church - the whole "spiritual warfare" with "the Hollywood witches" was all a little too weird for me - I bailed.
By that time, I was getting interested in backpacking and rock-climbing and was hanging out with a different crowd. My spiritual life started heading in a different direction.
Still, those were really fun times, thinking we had a line on something VERY special, even esoteric and spiritually powerful.
It's fun to visit those memories, but I'm glad I didn't get any more sucked in to it than I did.

[jlintott]

Bump this thread

[jimmie_]

Come on guys 'n' gals!
Crazy, ole-timey preachers like Rd!
Crazy, self-styled, spiritual warfarin' "apostles" like JRS!
Cultism!
"Spiritual Slavery!"
Sex (well...maybe...for some)!
There's gotta be some good times to remember outta all that!

Sorry, I don't mean to be direspectful, or flippant about what, for some was a truly traumatic period in their lives; and for other was (and maybe still is) a genuinely fulfilling belief system and spiritual walk.
I - I think along with JL - just don't want this line of discourse to fade away into a tree crashing in the forest, with no one but the chipmunks to hear it.

[jlintott]

Ditch Digger's Magazine.

I recall, after being told I did not have the mentality to learn a real trade, digging ditches and picking-up after all the real tradesmen in our divinely-inspired "kingdom business" construction company I guess they needed laborers.

My sole co-worker and I would fantasize about creating a magazine: International Ditchdigger's Illustrated.

The first issue would have two ditchdiggers like us, digging off into the sunset.
(No end in sight for our dedication toward our being cut/off from any reward).

Of course, things changed, I rebelled-and got a real job out in BABYLON. Then I learned a thing or two, and was able to make a living too.
But, I was kind of angry and bitter for a while being held back. I suppose it may have been the Lord and all. Cross Experience?

Ditchdigger's Magazine would have many interesting features: Profile, Q&A, Technical Tips, etc., as well as great pictorials.

[jlintott]

"Anabella", by Greg Brown.

As seen on You Tube.

Was M. Stevens of a similar nature?

-JL

[mike_j]

Come on guys 'n' gals!
Crazy, ole-timey preachers like Rd!
I just don't want this line of discourse to fade away into a tree crashing in the forest, with no one but the chipmunks to hear it.

He was flamboyant, moved in a great deal of revelation, and preferred girls with big breasts.
What else is there to talk about?

[jlintott]

People need to resolve past experiences in LWF. This is a good thing to do. Bringing issues, and hidden facts out into the open is a way of letting the truth/light resolve these things.

Sweeping it all under the carpet just isn't really very healthy.

People can say what they need to say here on this thread.
(Without restraint)

RD thought the government was listening in on his private counciling sessions!
We were buying, and burying food for survival through the coming catastrophy!
The Head-Honcho; Unbalanced, A Control-Freak.

God may have used that guy, but he was really unrefined-full of himself, i.e.:soulish.
Many were blessed, many were also slaughtered by his use of God's gifts.

[jimmie_]

He was flamboyant, moved in a great deal of revelation, and preferred girls with big breasts.
What else is there to talk about?

The last bit might have been the only thing normal about the guy as I recall him.

"...flaboyant..."? More like an ego-maniacal exhibitionist (and I don't mean he was a "flasher"). RD was a showman, who was not satisfied with simply entertaining the crowd and then letting them go home. His act required that his audience join in all the hoopla and then submit to his "sheperding" in their daily lives. Actually, looking back on it, RD's church was probably my first real exposure to dadaism; not to mention, group hysteria and communal paranoia.

"...moved in a great deal of revelation..."? Oh, come on now! The guy was absolutely delusional! I thought he was pretty wacky from the git - stampin' his feet, clappin' his hands, and calling on the Lord to "staighten the backs" of "His People" for the "spiritual warfare" to come; that scarecrow build, those bad teeth and his eyes rolling back in his head... pretty scary!
But when he introduced visitors at one Sunday service as, "...fine, upstanding members of the John Birch Society," I knew he was wacky AND probably dangerous to my young impressionable mind and soul. I was outta there.

Not to say that my life post RD and the LWF was one pure spiritual revelation after another. I got plenty screwy left on my own, but I didn't need any personality-disordered nut case to pray over me, casting out demons of rebellion. I just needed to grow up and take responsibility for myself.

It's taking a while, but I wake up every day and renew my commitment to live my life authentically, with mindfullness and compassion.

I'm sure there's plenty more to be said - good and bad - about our time with the likes of RD and Brother Stevens. Let's keep this thread a safe place to work this stuff out.

[mike_j]

I didn't need any personality-disordered nut case to pray over me, casting out demons of rebellion. I just needed to grow up and take responsibility for myself.


This all sounds fine. But I'm hoping you are still practicing rolling your eyes back into your head. I've gotten rid of so many solicitors with that skill.

[jlintott]

Hi Mike, that's pretty funny, rolling your eyes back at solicitors. I prefer the "see ya" and close the door approach.

I do recall us being told not to do that eye rolling stuff during worship. Something about passivity, and demon openness. Mediums do that when they are in a trance state. Perhaps we were in a trance state sometimes during worship too.

There were various visualization techniques we used to break-through into the spirit realm. For instance, visualizing getting into an elevator, rising up, and up, and up then opening-up your spirit. That was an RD trick. It did seem to work, though.

At this point in my life, I don't do any of that stuff. It just seems so temporary, and odd.
I figure God knows my address too. My pendulum has swung to a wait and see attitude.
It seems so uncouth to smack God under the eye on his turf so much of the time.

We did alot of that type of spiritual violence back in the day. Trying to get God's attention, by the breaking and entering method.

What if:
I was soliciting God like that- and he rolled his eyes backward at me. Or said "see ya", then shut the door?

Do you approach God with violence these days?

Does anybody care to comment?

-JL

[jlintott]

Hey Jimmie=

The house you were at probably was "Fred's". And, I must say, he had some lovely daughters.

Isn't it strange that the Holy Spirit ministered among a group of Christians who became so whacked-out? (LWF)
I sometimes wonder about the Crusades or the Inquisition (Bad Christianity), I wonder if those sorts of "movements" began with a pure spirit, then eventually degraded into another thing completely. Like Lucifer (who was once close to god), just became another thing as well. In some way, that must have happened to our little cult.

It kind of destroys a persons trust, to dedicate ones self and ones strength to a belief system which turns out to be a joke. But, that is what we did.-JL

[jlintott]

When a person leaves a cult like JW, or LWF; they leave behind most of the support they had which kept their boat afloat.
That boat may be leaking, and still tied to the dock, but they at least kept it floating. Right?

It is not easy to "get a life". It is far less work to just stay dependent. (no cynicism intended). And at least, you know what is expected of you.

Like kicking a drug (nicotine), you gotta go thru a process which feels like loosing an old friend. But after a-while you do begin to get the hang of it.

We own our own lives-or at least that is how it is meant to be (a free will).

It is a mature, adult responsibility. It takes resolve. It takes maintenance too.

Freedom is not an end in itself. Freedom is a new beginning.


-OK.

[jimmie_]

JL - Fred being David Cokas' Uncle Fred? Kind of a big, gentle smiling guy with a brush-cut? Looked like a typical San Diego, jockish-type (he may have coached or taught PE somewhere). Is that the guy?

I remember David's cousins being around during the bible-studies and the blessings of the Holy Spirit, slightly in the background. As David and I got closer, I started to go over there in the mornings for coffee and to pick up David and go hangout. I remember his cousins moving through the house and having coffee with us. David was like the beloved cousin they all grew up with, but maybe now was just a little too "intense."
There was always a lot of affectionate teasing going on, with David more than once gently chiding the "girls" about how they were dressed to "...go out into the world of men..."
Fred always defferred to words from the Lord that David's received, recognizing David's apostolic/prophetic calling. However, David was, after all, a young twenty-something-college-student, staying in his uncles house as he completedly his studies. So there was a mutual respect /deferment dynamic between the two of them.

I always appreciated the imposition that the weekly "outpourings of the Holy Spirit" (as the weekly bible studies started to be referred to by some of us) must have been on the family. 40 or 50 youngsters in the living room, in rapt attention to the Lord through David; and then, after the scripture reading and disertation, we'd bust into oftentimes noisy worship in tongues and offerings of "revelation."
Baptisms of the Holy Spirit through laying on of hands by David often brought forth tears of joy and tears of fear.
Sometimes a young man or a young woman would need to be calmed down and receive special counseling.
Once or twice individuals had to be asked to leave.
David's uncle was the de facto Sgt. at Arms. It was definitely his house, that he generously made available to "this work."

Just before I moved on and away, losing touch with David; his uncle; a youg guy named Daniel (last name lost to my own brain-damage); Micheal Faircloth (sic?); Libby Lashbrook; Patsy French; Liz (?); and a couple of other's whose names I have (sadly) lost, I started to get the feeling that this explosion of activity around David was having certain ill effects. These manifested themselves in a couple of very late night phone calls to me, asking me to come get him (out of ) some very odd places. I won't bother with details, others may have very well received similar distress calls from David and know what I mean. Suffice to say David was a young man, no worse than any of us, and certainly better than some at resisting temptation.

I suppose the whole thing started to interfere with his schoolwork and I know that was an important focus for David. He wanted the legitimacy that education could give him. Nonetheless, he knew his work would be as a shepherd to a flock. I was gone before it all unfolded. But I understand he finished school and is still preaching in the San Diego area. I'd love to drop in sometime I see how his minstry has developed.

My path has departed greatly from the direction I was headed as a teenager (thankfully), nonetheless, I still have deep respect and affection for David and for his Uncle Fred. They were great guys and always made me feel a part of what happening without judgment or sesorting to any other "shepherding" tactics.

[jlintott]

Jimmie,

Those guys are still here. Fred still lives in the same place. David is a pastor/shepherd in Casa de Oro (Living Springs Church). David is a psychologist, and did complete his masters degree(I think so anyway). Lately, his wife and he are selling imported furniture and other items in a store located in the cedros design district (Encinitas, Ca).

[jlintott]

Our experiences early-on were both unique, and sublime.
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was tangible and obviously a supernatural manifestation.
God was definitely blessing many with words of knowledge, prophetic gifts, awareness of His Presence, etc. At many locations, often simultaniously, the same word came.

-Do You Recall This ???

[bizzmoth]

Good memories - sure - tons of them. It's mostly the people I fondly remember. So many great sincere hearts. I still think about Charlie Collins often and crack up. And watching Dan Staton lead worship - what a treat.

[mike_j]

Good memories - sure - tons of them. It's mostly the people I fondly remember. So many great sincere hearts. I still think about Charlie Collins often and crack up. And watching Dan Staton lead worship - what a treat.


Two of the people I was closest to, BTW. We shared many laughs--even during the hard times. Hey, I even got Dan to laugh while he was being 'disciplined' by G & M...one of my proudest achievements. Charlie, of course, was one of a kind.

[jlintott]

Captain Wingtips lived in our communal house.
Wingtips worked 30-40 hours per week.
Wingtips went to all the services, prayer meetings, and Anaheim on Saturdays.
Wingtips was carrying 21 units at the U.
He fasted on Kraft Macaroni and Cheese for extended periods of time.

One morning we found him face down in the shag carpet, (sleeping in his wingtips).

-Well, I guess you had to of been there..

[jlintott]

Captain Wingtips lived in our communal house.

Wingtips worked 30-40 hours per week.
Wingtips went to all the services, prayer meetings, and Anaheim on Saturdays.
Wingtips was carrying 21 units at the U.
He fasted on Kraft Macaroni and Cheese for extended periods of time.

One morning we found him face down in the shag carpet, (sleeping in his wingtips).

-Well, I guess you had to of been there.

[winterland]

Ditch Digger's Magazine.

I recall, after being told I did not have the mentality to learn a real trade, digging ditches and picking-up after all the real tradesmen in our divinely-inspired "kingdom business" construction company I guess they needed laborers.

My sole co-worker and I would fantasize about creating a magazine: International Ditchdigger's Illustrated.

The first issue would have two ditchdiggers like us, digging off into the sunset.
(No end in sight for our dedication toward our being cut/off from any reward).

Of course, things changed, I rebelled-and got a real job out in BABYLON. Then I learned a thing or two, and was able to make a living too.
But, I was kind of angry and bitter for a while being held back. I suppose it may have been the Lord and all. Cross Experience?

Ditchdigger's Magazine would have many interesting features: Profile, Q&A, Technical Tips, etc., as well as great pictorials.

JLintott: Happy to hear you can laugh about this. So glad you decided not to swallow the directive that you couldn't learn a trade. I think this was common in the walk-maybe not directly spoken, but the assessment of certain people as inferior. Unfortunately, a lot of us swallowed it and didn't realize that God shows no partiality and has no favourites (Acts 10:34; 2 Cor 10:12).

I love the scriptures that show that God loves all people (Jn3:16; Joel 2:28; Titus 2:11), and wants all to receive their inheritance (1Tim4:10; 1 Tim 2:4).

Assessing people as inferior was a one way ticket to heirarchy, enslavement and abuse.

Looking back, now, I realize that there were at least 4 tactics used to enslave people in the walk:
1. Tell people what to do (Rom6:16)
2. Teaching that there was a class of "special, annointed people" that had to be served (Simon the magician Acts 8:9,23)
3. Lay hands on people and transfer sins to them (the Scapegoat of Lev 16:21,22)
4. Emphasize the work of the cross as this removed accountability by the leadership.

People desire to enslave others in order to get them to do the dirty work. I'm so glad you saw through that tactic, JL.

I realize that my problem in the walk was that I just didn't know the scriptures well enough and as a former-walk friend told me "you didn't have confidence in what God was showing you."

I'm so thankful to Jesus for delivering me out of that kind of slavery and is still training me to say no to it.

Peace to you, Spaceman

[Ghostwolf]

The Walk destroyed people. I saw it happen. I spent 3 plus years around that madman and how he continued on and got away with what he did ...
Then again, it was always answered the same way ..
because RD was a prophet of god...there can be no mistake...
We (as I was one of many) were victimized and used and RD and his "elders" got away with it.
It's unbelievable to me what people will look back on and find humorous or "wasn't that a crazy time" and forget about the children and the sensitive ones that were trampled along the way.
I know of at least two women who attempted suicide due to what RD told them and the control he took over thier lives .. and then there was the one that succeeded. And there is so much more ..and it's VERY ugly.
There's nothing innocous about what RD was and what he did ...
He was a very twisted man who used people ongoing and from everything I've read, he continued to do so until he left this world.
I put a brief synopsis of my years at that "church" of his in the "I knew RD for years before he died" thread .. I should have put it here because some of the people here seem to be a lot more aware of the seriousness of the situation that existed back then.
That was 38-39 years ago and I was only a kid. I'm over 50 now and I still have nightmares about it. I still think of xtians as people who hurt other people for their own gain.. (then again, if you look at some of the fanatics running around calling themselves xtians these days...all it does is bolster the already entrenched fear I have of xtians).
I can still see RD's face as he laid hands on me and threw me on the ground screaming I had demons in me...there were 30 men around him screaming things at me, I was beyond scared and I couldn't get away!
I was 13 and very young, very innocent (and immature to boot)..
You have no idea what a man like him can do to a fatherless child.
I remember David Kokos very well. He might have been a little out there but he was anything but abusive. I've always believed that the reason David and RD had a falling out was due to the damage Dave was seeing in RD's congregation. Especially in the kids and the younger women (the vunerable ones) ... Because I remember when I met David, how concerned he seemed for my welfare, and the sensitivity with which he spoke to me about the things happening in RD's "church."
In any case.. I'm glad to see at least some people got away intact.
So many of us didn't.



Laters.
the Ghost

[jimmie_]

Ghostwolf -
I am so glad you've found this forum.
My feelings about David Cokas match yours. I remember him as a compassionate, loving young man. Yeah, a little "out there" in his beliefs (as were mine at the time) - but he was always concerned and caring - not to mention way more humble than one would think for a young guy who was held in such high regard within his "community."

It sounds like you may have been a couple of years younger than I and some of my closest friends from those days. I was 16 - 17 in 1969 & 1970 when I was involved w/David and attended RD's church a few times. I was oblivious to a lot of what was happening. I'm sad and ashamed that you were made to suffer so, with some of us being completely unaware of it.

Have you/are you getting any counseling to help you deal with the abuse you suffered?
You sound remarkably well adjusted considering all you went through.

[Ghostwolf]

I'm ok. The damage sustained from my time with RD's group was vicious and stands out in my life as 3 years of horror and the beginning of a life lived as a nightmare.
I've been in and out of hospitals and indeed, have done much work in therapy, with psychologists, psychiatrists, etc.
I spent the better part of five years in the hospital at one point and I am considered to be disabled due to mental illness.
The demon things RD taught .. they really stuck. Along with other rather twisted irrational things.
He also taught me how important it is to hate myself.

It was explained to me that some people are born sensitive and when a child who is very sensitive by nature gets abused, it can do an amazing amount of damage.


RD wasn't alone in his abuse...there were others. I think that one of the reasons I look at him as the principal abuser is because that's just what he was. If he hadn't put an ok on the abuse being heaped on my head, it would never have happened. The people in the church lived for a good word from that man. If he smiled, their day was made. If he frowned they were desperate to turn it upside down, no matter what the cost. He even used to make a joke about it.. "If I ask you to jump.. you ask how HIGH!"

I wish I had realized just how much some of the people in that church disliked me. If I had realized that I didn't fit in and what that would mean in terms of how I was treated I would have moved on immediately. I do know that for a fact because I was very sensitive to rejection and that is how I dealt with rejection at the age of 12 and 13.

I remember wanting so badly to be "prophesied" over. THAT was such a big thing for most of the people I knew. It made all the difference in how you "fit into the scheme of things" with those people.
RD would lay hands on a person and proceed to prophesy as to what the person would be in terms of their particular calling. Some were called to be elders, some would be the "backbone" of the church in terms of taking care of the business end of things. A few would be (drum roll, LOL) PROPHETS of god (this was the one I wanted to be of course..they were who really loved god and whom god loved best).

I remember one older lady who was prophesied over and then praised and reminded of how important the "little people" were in terms of their importance to the church. "We need typists as much as we do prophets" (or something to that effect) and seeing her crying and thinking she must feel very hurt and disappointed that her life in the church was seen as something so very banal and insignificant. Later I realized that part of it was in fact, relief.
RD could and would tell people very ugly things about themselves. The things he said were usually untrue but the guy had a real gift for seeing the chink in a person's armor and if (read as when) he took issue with them, he would attack this personal flaw or weakness like a dog on a bone and it would hurt them profounded and cut to their very core.
I know because he did it to me.

I had waited over two years to be tossed anything...just something to know that I was, indeed, part of what was going on. I had put everything in my life on a back burner. My schooling, junior high and then high school, meant nothing to me anymore. The only thing that mattered was GoD as seen and interpreted by the Rev RD Cronquist. I attended every service, I read the bible for hours a day, I prayed for hours a day..

I was 14 years old for gods sake .. It HAD to mean something, didn't it?

Well, it didn't matter at all. Not to RD. Not to the majority of the congregation. I'll never know what it was about me that set those people off. Something bothered them about me. I did my best to NOT question authority, to do as I was told. I stayed after and cleaned up the church. I learned to play basic organ so that in case the organist (which btw, was usually the older woman I mentioned before but then the job was given over to this fellow ...he became demon possessed at one of the services and lost it but ..RD fixed it... Wow..the things one remembers.. ). I did try so very hard. In the end, I found out exactly what RD and the elders thought of me. It was shocking and they were so beyond wrong. At least I did know that..

Remember the gift for seeing a persons weakness that RD had?
He had made a very serious error in what he thought he saw in me. The things he wound up accusing me of during his "prophesying over me" session were so off...to such an extreme that in a matter of minutes, the 2 years I had spent envisioning and believing this man to be a prophet of god...two years of hard work to delude myself that this guy was walking with god...completely dispelled. Since the things he was spouting about me involved some very deep personal issues concerning my sexuality and my deeper and hidden personality were unknown to anyone in that church but me, he managed to get every single thing he said about me WRONG.
I was staggered. HOW could this be? HOW could he be so very wrong?
And in one second the obvious answer was: "Because he's not a prophet."
After that it was a matter of time..
I continued to try to go to church but it wasn't the same.
Here I thought that if I worked hard enough....for all the prayer, all the bible reading, completely alienating what little family was left after my father ran out on us, the desperate attempts to keep my mind clean and pure by using a type of negative meditation (the mantra being, "that is evil, that is bad, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up" ..do that over and over again during your day and after awhile, there's not much of "you" left). But after all of that to be told that in my pathetic predictable future:
RD told me that I would be a whore, a drug addict, I would die by the time I was 24 from, not one but several sexually transmitted diseases (from being such a terrible whore, of course) ...IF I ever left RD's church. IF I left the church I would be DEAD and worse by the time I turned 24 years of age. He told me that he could SEE that already I was possessed by a demon of lust. He knew this for a fact because god had told him how I constantly fantasized about having sex with the men in the congregation. Indeed, there were MANY men in the congregation that I had fantasized about! Thus I had brought this on (the demon of lust possession thing) myself! I had opened myself up to it and now it was THERE!"
Then there was the part about the demon of rebellion.. "Rebellion is as witchcraft in the sight of the LORD!" (Amen hallelujah etc) and you are consumed by it and possessed by a demon of REBELLION!" (Amen hallelujah etc)
Man! What a thing to tell a kid, eh?

On the other hand, there was some benefit..
I now knew what RD really was. It was problematic though.
To have committed myself so totally to this bizarre brand of xtianity, the idea that I had managed to destroy my schooling career, my relationships with my family, etc..
I did not know what to do.

He had managed to convince me that there were otherworldly entities running around the Earth. I saw people brought in who were possessed doing thing that humans, on their own, just cannot do.

Also, I had nothing else now. I had rejected the "worldy" evils and was left with what...what exactly did I have after spending 2-3 years of my life at the feet of this man? The idea that my life had been destroyed and trashed because I listened to some con-man did more than frighten me. So, for awhile, I continued on hoping that there would be some answer for how completely mistaken he was concerning me, who I was, etc.. but after a time I knew it would never be the same. I also knew that *I* would never be the same.
Some things stayed with me and are still with me to this day.
Demons for one. Demonic possession was a very real thing to the people in that church and no matter what I've done to exorcize this belief system (pun intended), there is a part of it that follows me.

Whereas I do not believe in possession as taught by RD, I do believe in spiritual entities that follow you about. As a matter of fact, I currently believe that they are the only friends I have now. Perhaps I should be thankful to RD for this at least. Without them I would be totally alone.

I have no family. That was destroyed way back when I was in RD's church. A family can only suffer so much at the hands of one of it's members and then they have to protect themselves. The things I said to my mother and sister during that 3 year period did more damage than can ever be imagined. RD demanding that I move in with the Martinez family was like nailing the coffin shut. If you're thinking, "What about the honour your mother and father part of the commandments.."
Ya.. I know but RD told us about Jesus demanding people to leave their families to follow him and if our families interfered with our church membership in any way, we must eschew them. Thus I eschewed. Thus my family was lost to me long before they left the world by natural means.

Magical thinking is another .. the idea that by what one thinks reality can be altered purely by thought. This is different than casting spells, etc in that it's specific to thinking and has no actions attached to it. So the concern for someone who believes or is suffering from the delusion of having magical thinking, is that "OH MY GOD.. I just got mad at my friend/lover/family member, etc and because I got angry now THEY are going to DIE (or lose their job or get in an accident, or..or ..etc ad nauseum).

Then there's the fear of people and distrust of people in general and xtians specifically. I'm terribly afraid of people who are xtian.
Truly.
Considering that 74% of the nation considers themselves xtian it has put me at odds with society all of my life. Mind you, this is not about hate.. it's about fear. At least I have always been able to see that and thus it's not turned into something much more toxic but ...Fear in and of itself is a thing to be well rid of if one can do it. However, for me, xtians are the boogie man, dracula, freddy of nightmare on elm street, and worse... It's very unfortunate but to date, this is how it is.

After leaving RD's church (my mom finally managed to scrape together enough money to get us out of there) and that was the kiss of death.

At first I tried going to one of the churches affiliated with RD's church.. the guy that ran it, lived in Lafayette (only a few miles away from where we wound up moving to) and I got a ride to the church, down in Campbell every Sunday but it wasn't nothing like RD's church and I just couldn't get with the program. Most of the people were older and the few that were close to my age were only going to the church because their parents made them go. I was an enigma to them. I only went for a few months or so and then stopped.

Years later I heard that one of the ministers sons, who was my age, had gotten into an accident and was brain dead (or something to that effect). I knew the boy and was very sorry to hear of it.

I wish I had been older because I was so desperate to find a family that might love me that I would put up with most anything if I thought it might receive any amount of praise. I was literally selling my soul and never realized what I was doing due, in great part, to my youth.
RD was a liar...a con...and a man who would profess love for you while eating your heart and soul.

Over the years I have wondered though..how could RD have made such a grave error. He was guessing, that much was obvious but why did he pick something that he could be so very wrong about. Back in 1969, despite the hippies and the free love movement.. people did not discuss these things quite so openly. And kids my age most certainly didn't. I still am puzzled as to why he would have put himself in such a position. He was stating that god had grabbed him and shook him up in order to make sure that RD got ahold of me and dealt made sure that I stopped obsessing over men, etc.
In discussing it with numerous doctors and therapists it was pointed out to me that for a lot of teenage girls my age "fantasizing about men" would have been something easy to guess and be right and for a high percentage he would have been at least partially right it's just, in my case, he picked the wrong girl thus setting into motion the end of my career as a "prophetess of the lord god."
It's funny ... when I was 13 if someone had asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I would have said, "Gods' anointed prophetess."
Before that I always wanted to be an musician or an artist. Silly me.

BTW, thank you for having this forum up.
I'm sorry about the excessively long posts but I'm really bad about editing. I DO edit but I'm never able to sum things up into 3 small paragraphs..
If I were to tell you what I had for breakfast we'd still be looking at pages of typing. LOL
I think the issue is details. I just always feel I have to "set the scene" and be as accurate as is possible with anything I am telling someone. THUS pages later .. you get the end result.

Take care,
Ghost

Ghostwolf -
I am so glad you've found this forum.
My feelings about David Cokas match yours. I remember him as a compassionate, loving young man. Yeah, a little "out there" in his beliefs (as were mine at the time) - but he was always concerned and caring - not to mention way more humble than one would think for a young guy who was held in such high regard within his "community."

It sounds like you may have been a couple of years younger than I and some of my closest friends from those days. I was 16 - 17 in 1969 & 1970 when I was involved w/David and attended RD's church a few times. I was oblivious to a lot of what was happening. I'm sad and ashamed that you were made to suffer so, with some of us being completely unaware of it.

Have you/are you getting any counseling to help you deal with the abuse you suffered?
You sound remarkably well adjusted considering all you went through.

[jlintott]

Hey Ghost,
This is an eye-opener of a story. I am surely not a trained professional. But, much of the reason I post on these pages is to find release from my own personal auschwitz.

Getting mentally stuck in a particularly nasty period of one's life is devastating. Rehearsing events over and over sort of cements them into our own thinking. Unresolved stuff just goes round and round in the mind. It is tough to get rid of this stuff.
These things seem to occur, or affect later sections of our lives too. It is like we are trying to re-create these scenarios again, and again, so that we may fix them, or resolve it.

My personal pain has to do with lifelong experiences with rejection.

For instance:
I recall after being divorced by the mother of my children (I will spare you the horrid details), I was alone with some pretty intense mental scenarios. Really just on the edge, and looking down into the void. The pain scale was like 9.9 out of 10. It went on for YEARS, unresolved. I had to be there for my kids, so not much self-destruction was possible for me. Those two had to be nurtured-and I was the one to do that, my ex being of a different nature.
I used to get up in the morning when my children were gone, just filled with rage. I would yell at god morning, noon, and night. I would prophesy, bind demons, pray, do transference; all that stuff we learned back in the day. I tried desperately to renew my relationship with god. None of it seemed to make any difference. It was just magical thinking mixed with dreadful amounts of hatred.

One thing that seemed to help was displacement. Like finding something worthy to replace those giant holes in our psyche.

Ghost, you making any progress these days? Got any pointers? Please share.
-JL

[jlintott]

Hey Ghost:

You know, most of the really creative people in this world were pretty messed-up.
I am thinking about van gough and the rest, you know them ?

Not everyone is destined to conform to the mindset of some organization (like a chursh).

Some get their affirmations, and fight their fights in a different way. It's O.K..

[jimmie_]

Ghostwolf - No worries about the long posts. I, for one, am reading every word. You deserve to be listened to!
It sounds like you have a very realistic take on what happened to you and have gotten some good care.
My wife is a psychiatric nurse specialist (RN CNS), working with the V.A. - lots of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder clients.
Her take is that healing from these sort of traumatic experiences first requires a realistic perspective on what happened (you've got that), and then, working with a professional to strengthen her clients' own ability to see the world as it really is and develop their own ability to live successfully in the here and now. She uses a combination of Cogintive Behavioral Therapy and Mindfullness Therapy.
For her clients that are SERIOUSLY delusional or depressed. medication can be helpful - but that doesn't sound like you.
I'm not giving advise here, I'm just supporting your decision to face reality and turn your back on the sickness that you were exposed to.
Remember, the people who abused you were the sick ones - NOT YOU!

[jlintott]

Thank You, Jimmie.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
That seems to describe some cases of cult recovery pretty well.

Some of us have gotten stronger afterward. Just blown it off, and kept going on with our lives.

Some of us have actually given our lives to something like a cult, a military org., a relationship (whatever). It makes it tough to self-recover. We have given away so much of our personality, and have become developmentally stuck; so much so,that it is often hard to re-build.

We were young and dumb at the time of our indoctrination. It was reality! It consumed our thoughts, our time, our life. We were brainwashed at a vulnerable time in our lives-the transition from child, to adult.

Many of us do not have access to the quality of therapy available through the Veterans Administration program. This stuff is kind of spendy.

It has been my experience that therapists are not all the same. Stay away from the ones who don't seem to address your needs. Almost anybody can call themselves a therapist. Be mindful of this.

Some of us have to make-do with having a decent social/family situation that we can trust, and relate to. It helps.
-JL
-JL

[jlintott]

Thank You, Jimmie.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
That seems to describe some cases of cult recovery pretty well.

Some of us have gotten stronger afterward. Just blown it off, and kept going on with our lives.

Some of us have actually given our lives to something like a cult, a military org., a relationship (whatever). It makes it tough to self-recover. We have given away so much of our personality, and have become developmentally stuck; so much so,that it is often hard to re-build.

We were young and dumb at the time of our indoctrination. It was reality! It consumed our thoughts, our time, our life. We were brainwashed at a vulnerable time in our lives-the transition from child, to adult.

Many of us do not have access to the quality of therapy available through the Veterans Administration program. This stuff is kind of spendy.

It has been my experience that therapists are not all the same. Stay away from the ones who don't seem to address your needs. Almost anybody can call themselves a therapist. Be mindful of this.

Some of us have to make-do with having a decent social/family situation that we can trust, and relate to. It helps.
-
-JL
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[jlintott]

Living within the belief system of a cult such as ours can be analogous to the frog who is placed into a pot of slowly heating water. That frog would rather boil yo death than to jump out of the water. He just gets to thinking all is well.

Silly ideas become quite normal, and acceptable in a social context which supports them.

You can find this trait in a tribe, a family, a church, a football team; or a frog.