| Author | Message | ||
     ba2004 (ba2004) New member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
After my wife passed away, I was re-acquainted with an old friend whom I recently married. Before we were married, I attended church with her on a few occasions so I knew she was of the Baptist faith but didn't really realize what being Baptist meant. (I was raised Catholic but am very willing to look elseware). She actually is a fundamentalist with preference to attend a church that supports evangelism. I have no interest in having her change her basic faith. I do hope she could learn to realize that others could have different views which should be respected. Are fundamentalist Baptists cult members? It seems so to me. And, can learn to deal with our differences? Sorry, I tried putting this question elseware but am so new at this that I think I messed up the posting. I really would appreciate any help. | ||
| warr (warr) Intermediate Member Username: warr Post Number: 234 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.18 |
-you are right about there strictness and they also believe in not being unequally yoked with other faiths-so obviously she didn't care about that-so I don't see why it would matter to her what he feels-go to counselling if it becomes a problem....sorry about that name slip-up (Message edited by warr on November 07, 2005) | ||
| ba2004 (ba2004) New member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
I think you responded to me, but I'm not sure who rachel is? I was not a practicing Catholic and was attending various churches (mostly Protestant) when we got reacquainted and she made sure I would attend church with her before we got greatly involved. I agreed we should attend together and we both agreed (I thought) that we should both agree on the specific church. She is only willing to change if it is to another fundamentalist church - I am pretty open. However, Sundays have become very stressful as it now appears to me that this fundamentalist church promotes intolerance and disrespect of other point of views. I do not enjoy listening to a sermon where we are being yelled at. And some of the views are an insult to one’s intelligence. She tells me I knew where she was coming from before we were married – fact is, I didn’t have a clue. She tells me she backed off in that we are not attending a Wednesday service, but we usually do attend about 4 ½ hours on Sunday – this is still too much for me. I would definitely go to counseling with her, but it will be difficult to get her to see a counselor that is not sponsored by this fundamentalist group - she feels that non-church counselors are satanic. I will add, the people in the church are initially very nice people, but it is clear that you can’t disagree with them. I must also add – other than Sundays, our relationship the other 6 days is really wonderful. I am looking for guidance from anyone that may have experienced this. I truly want to make this marriage work and I believe my wife does too, but we are trapped in our differing belief systems which I am afraid has the potential to destroy everything. Any thoughts or insights - anyone? | ||
| rachelengland (rachelengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 354 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 |
your screwed-stand up and be a man(and I'm a female telling you this)! Go to church when you want to it's not the end of the world you should of done counseling before you got married-listen buy her lavish gifts tell her she's the most gorgeous thing on the planet you need to distract her from this church thing-and for god sake find some other hobbies you can do together that will take her mind off of church-and last but least no one on this board can give you marriage advice-it's all up to you .... | ||
| ba2004 (ba2004) New member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
Thank's Rachel - you certainly tell it like it is. I think you are right, and I have been trying to get her mind off the church thing but probably need to do a better job. I don't expect marriage advice but was looking for ideas as to how I might deal with this type of "cult", if that is what it is. Ideas from others that might have had the same fundamentalist Baptist beliefs would be appreciated. How can I help bring her mind to reality? | ||
| rachelengland (rachelengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 374 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 |
I'm sorry if i was so forward ba2004-i really am symphathetic-but I'm a Doctor too and I have to tell it the way it is...baptists do believe once your saved your always saved meaning you can sin and still go to heaven -they don't normally drink or smoke and they are dispensationlists-which means they take the Bible literally no ifs ands or buts-they aren't as crazy as the evangelicals who speak in tongues,cast out devils and prophecy-thank god (Message edited by rachelengland on November 08, 2005) | ||
| uncharmed (uncharmed) Intermediate Member Username: uncharmed Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 72.130.225.205 |
uh...rachel...duh....(i don't believe you're a doctor for one thing) Jesus is the One Who said to cast out demons and heal the sick in His name and Paul the Apostle said that he "spoke in tongues more than anyone". prophecy is in the New Testament and the gift of prophecy is a gift from the Holy Spirit. if you worship the Great Physician you should reverence His own teachings and the ministry of the Holy Spirit Who is God. evangelicals are crazy? is Jimmy Carter crazy? Billy Graham, Franklin Graham?  physician heal thyself and would you please stop going to every thread bossing people around and preaching false doctrine and hatred? | ||
| rachelengland (rachelengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 394 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.80.154.3 |
well uncharmed i haven't made it to every thread yet but i'm working on it! Who you think I am doesn't really matter- I think my ego speaks for itself and I was just telling the guy like it is-I do however have to admit you found the 3 only decent fundamentalists in the world-so here's to you as I lift up my glass of communion juice and you have to admit that xxx think on the other post was kind of funny-come on it was (Message edited by rachelengland on November 09, 2005) | ||
| ba2004 (ba2004) New member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
These are interesting comments, not much help but interesting. I think both Rachel and uncharmed are right, there some good fundamentalists, but I am meeting a lot of screwy ones too. My wife and many of her church friends believe in the occult, demons and witchcraft. They believe that the sins of their relatives can cause physical or mental illness and may cause a curse to be placed upon them and their family. They believe that one can become possessed by demonic subjection because of something in their families past. Even more troubling is their believe that the KJV is the only correct version of the bible without any possibility of any one word being translated incorrectly and with no room for an interpretation to be accepted differently. Is this true of all fundamentalists? And has anyone had success getting them to at least accept that it is ok if others have different views. | ||
| rachelengland (rachelengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 399 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.80.154.3 |
ba2004-it's not true of all fundamentalists-i wish you could of watched wifeswap on tv last night perfect example of a fundie gone wrong-I'm sorry for the bantor between uncharmed and myself-but i do feel for you-I grew up in this type of hype... they are sooooo... hard to change and when they do they turn out like me  -listen could you maybe sit down with the pastor of the church and tell him where your coming from? | ||
| ihavesinned (ihavesinned) Advanced Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 652 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.112.180.149 |
I saw that, I laughed my •••• off! What a maniac! And the hippie family was so nice, and the christian lady was pure evil. What a nut, that poor little girl will probably never recover. I felt sorry for her, and the husband. | ||
| rachelengland (rachelengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 400 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.80.154.3 |
I was so hoping you watched that!!! wasn't she CRAZY-I was crackin up and you have to be very quiet in his hotel-but i as usual couldn't help myself | ||
| ba2004 (ba2004) New member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
rachel – thanks for responding, at least someone is giving me something to think about. No, I didn’t really think it was true of all fundamentalists. You say you grew up in this type of hype? How did you get past the mind control? What got you to open your mind and look at facts? It seems that fundamentalism is extremely controlling, ie: refrain from main stream media, never go to a church or lecture with even a slightly different view, avoid friendships that are not members, refuse counseling unless it is sanctioned by the fundamentalist church, etc, etc. There is a lot of love between us, but, although she strongly states that her love is unconditional, I am not totally sure – 95% of the time it is incredibly good. I might consider talking with the pastor, but I’m not sure he could help, I think him and previous pastors like him are a big part of the problem, so this might be risky. | ||
| rachelengland (rachelengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 402 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.80.154.3 |
I understand-you know for me I was a young person who grew up in the church-so when i was of coarse old enough i was able to get out and experience life when your able to look at it all from the outside you go WOW-what was I involved in -you sound very grounded and sure of yourself and maybe the pastor thing was the wrong advice but don't sacrifice your convictions-stand strong to what you believe and just a little inside secret-in the church women are suppose to be submissive to their husbands so you can always pull out that logic but do it very carefully -some people would rag on me for telling you that but the man is the head of the household in a fundamentalist family. (Message edited by rachelengland on November 10, 2005) | ||
| ba2004 (ba2004) New member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
Thanks rachel, I am reading "Releasing the Bonds" which is helping me understand what happened to her. It is giving me a few ideas but I would like to hear about ideas that may have worked for others in a similar situation as me. I am sensing that my situation is very very unusual - a tolerant liberal and a fundamentalist conservative falling in love. You did say that your eyes were opened when you were able to get out, and I am trying to open up her outside experiences - I think that will help. And yes, I do know the wife is suppose to be submissive to the husband, but I am sure you also know, it isn't as simple as that. I will have to give her a lot of time. If you could give me some insite, ideas as to what might help along the process, what kinds of activities or experiences helped open your eyes, please let me know. (Message edited by ba2004 on November 14, 2005) (Message edited by ba2004 on November 14, 2005) | ||
| rachelengland (rachelengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 439 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 |
travel-volunteer work and building friendships with people of other faiths- helped me and still do -you know there are times when i question if what I'm doing is okay that fundementalist faith leaves one with much guilt-it's a hard thing to break away from so it will be for her too. Opposites attract-i understand but the trouble it brings can sometimes be hell-take care and I hope this helps.... | ||
| ba2004 (ba2004) New member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
Thanks again, volunteer work is something I didn't think of. My wife and I are more alike than you would imagine, yet we are different. I don't drink or smoke, but I don't think these behaviors are sins. I believe in the basic messages in the bible, but not literally. I believe in helping and giving to those in need, but not tithing. Even though I am very tolerant in most of my views, I do stand strong in what I believe. She is not allowed to proselytize my 18 year old son, and she doesn’t. She is no longer allowed to possess or pass out tracts that promote any hatred (ie: Chick), and she doesn’t. So, this “obeying the husband” thing does work. But I want her to do the right things because she wants to, not because she is ordered to. She has to discover the “real truth”. I find it very easy to follow the commandments and don’t understand the fundamentalists preaching how hard it is??? Also, how can you feel guilty about something in which you had absolutely no control or input?? I hope my wife can get through this bizarre thinking, I hope you can too. So, although it’s only a few, I have my own ruling principles which can’t be crossed. What “ruling principals” do the fundamentalists have? Can you or anyone else help with this? | ||
| forthelamb (forthelamb) New member Username: forthelamb Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
Some fundamental baptist churches are little more than cults (ie. Jack Hyles' bunch up in Hammond, Indiana). Others are just misguided, albeit well-intentioned. Their theology is spot on in some areas, and way off base in others. Generally you should stay away from an independent baptist church, or any church for that matter, that requires loyalty without question to the pastor or leaders, a trait which is more common in these baptist churches than elsewhere. In addition, many fundamental baptists claim that they are right when everyone else is wrong ... such attitudes display complete ignorance of Scripture, as it is very easy to show how wrong some baptists are in several important areas of Scripture. My advice would be to stay away from fundamental baptists. Spiritual abuse in many forms is prevalent in these churches. Presbyterian theology is fairly close to Scripture in most areas. A good historical baptist figure to study is CH Spurgeon. There aren't many of his calibre around today, certainly not in America. | ||
| cybermom (cybermom) Intermediate Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 426 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
I feel any independent church where the pastor is the sole unquestioned authority is a dangerous one, no matter what the denomination (or lack of it). I haven't been to a Baptist service in years, but I've been in enough independent, non-denom charismatic ones to know that if the pastor appears to be a tyrant or dictator to be obeyed and not questioned, run for your life. At least Baptists usually preach the Word; some charismatic churches can be light on the Word and heavy on the "experience." Cybermom | ||
| ba2 (ba2) New member Username: ba2 Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
Forethelamb and cybermom: Thank you for your input. As you might see, the question I originally posted was the main reason I started looking at factnet. I was searching for help. It has been a while since anyone posted to this thread and since then I have read a number of books and articles. I have learned a lot. I now strongly feel that Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Churches can be very dangerous and although they will never admit it, very anti-American. However, I’m sure that they are not all that way. The fact that they are independent means that the church leadership will set the tone and direction and this can change overnight. By selecting a few verses it can easily focus far from Biblical intent. Often, the minister will jump around from book to book, without even considering the context of the message, to prove his point. There is no question that my wife has been spiritually abused and is addicted to this toxic faith. There has been a little movement on her part, but very little. I do think I would like a Presbyterian Church. I also think there are many Baptist Churches I would enjoy. The difficulty will be to get my wife to move into a church which both of us could enjoy. I got her to attend an American Baptist Church a few weeks ago, and she disliked the service, they talked too much about Martin Luther King’s message - it was the Sunday near the holiday. I just finished reading “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” and “Toxic Faith”, both are very good. I am currently reading “Twisted Scriptures” which is interesting. The problem is, while they all help me understand the problem, they provide little help dealing with someone that is blinded by their belief. If you have any constructive guidance, it would be appreciated. | ||
| notscarlet (notscarlet) New member Username: notscarlet Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 24.58.44.83 |
I am ordering the book "Religions that Kill". Are you familiar with that? I also felt that when my husband and I were in a non-denominational couples bible study he got better. He was forced to think for himself and hear other peoples interpretations of the bible. Let me know what you find. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) New member Username: ba2 Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.118.143.135 |
notscarlet No, I haven't read "Religions that Kill". Let me know what you think of it. I think the books I mentioned above are very good, but although they give good insite, they lack ideas when trying to work with a loved one who doesn't want to look at their faith objectively. My wife has been spiritually abused for so long that she can't see and refuses to even consider that she is being abused. How did you find out about the non-denominational couples bible study? I would be afraid that if we joined something like that it would just feed into her toxic faith. | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
I find your thread very interesting. I have been trying to educate myself on the IFB religion as well. My husband and I have been married for 4 years. He told me he was raised "baptist". Well I was raised Cumberland Pres. and now attend a southern baptist church, so I assumed that we were the same religion. Not true. He was raised in one of these cult like churchs. He even went to school at one of their schools. He never really displayed these odd views. Well, the first time I attended my MIL and FIL church, I knew there was something real strange about it. I'm a Christian and have attended church since I can remember. As I said, I was raised in church. I have never met any people like these people. They are so critical of other religion's views. They hate Catholics and Charasmatics. I don't even know what they exactly mean by charasmatics??? They go out "soul winning" all the time, where they knock on people's door and ask about their personal relationship with God. They don't allow women to wear pants, teach Sunday school classes with boys over 12, be song leaders. They think if men have long hair that they are demon posessed. I have thought long and hard about this denomination and am very convinced that they are a cult. I just recently came to that realization. Even though my husband doesn't attend this church, it still has a slight hold on him. He's not radical like these people, but I can see some traits in him that came from this church. I told him last Sunday that I didn't want to go this church. He wanted us to visit the church because his dad had been hounding us to come for at least 6 months. He said he was taking our 2 year old daughter with or without me. I had to go. I don't want her brainwashed. She is very scared when she goes to this church. Sometimes kids have a sixth sense about things... I told him that I thought it was a cult. He got really mad, but couldn't really tell me how he knew that it wasn't. I can emphathize with you. I deal with harassment by my FIL about my religion... | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
mdaye I see you are new to factnet or maybe you had to re-register under a new user name when the site had troubles about a month back. Either way, your differences between your husband and yourself are probably not as great as mine, but I truly feel for you. I never believed a church would preach so much hatred towards others. They absolutely do not see that they are doing this, so it is a very very difficult issue to address. As you probably saw in my initial post when I started this topic, I was raised Catholic but was not really into the practice. Like many, I always had some issues with the Catholic theology, but never saw them as being disrespectful of others’ beliefs, so it was easy for me to agree to attend her Church. Now I realize that my wife was probably thrilled when she got me away from what she thought was idol worshipping. I now would probably consider myself a mainline Protestant, but am now very leery of anyone that might call themselves Baptist. This might be an unfair statement by me, but I am very willing to continue to try to find a Baptist Church, but I can’t feel good about one that is so intolerant. Your description of your husband’s Church hits perfectly with my wife’s. No pants for women, no women reading scripture in public, leaving tracts everywhere we go, extremely disrespectful to any other belief (especially Catholic). I could go on and on. We have been married for 1 ½ years now and sometimes it gets better but she keeps going right back to the start. We are now involved in counseling. This was a major step for her as she sees all counselors as satanic, unless they are also ordained ministers. Our counselor is not a minister but belongs to a Christian counseling center. I am hoping that this will help, but some days I have my doubts. I recommend the following books; they might help you understand what is happening and how your husband got into this trap. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find much in the way of help for someone with a loved one who is in this sort of controlling system. Releasing the Bonds by Hassan The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson Toxic Faith by Arterburn All are very good. I am currently reading Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar You are the first person I heard from with a somewhat similar experience as mine. If you have any helping thoughts I would really be interested. Take care and try to keep a positive outlook. | ||
| rachellengland (rachellengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachellengland Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 |
BA your wife also needs to realize how important she is as a woman and the fact the church is keeping her quiet and in skirts is such an abomination- God doesn't put restrictions on us like that MAN does. I am glad to see YOU are finding resources but it is a long journey for those who were raised in this type of environment. It takes courage and belief in oneself to break away from this type of religious stronghold-it all goes back to individual choices. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
Hi Rachel, It’s been a long time since I heard from you. A long journey is right. I hope mdaye can do better than me. In my case, my wife came close to losing all her significant relationships. Her previous husband left her, she won’t admit any fault. When they became teenagers, her children all took her to court so that they could stay with their father, again it wasn’t her fault. Her mother, who let her and her children have a place to stay after the divorce, finally kicked her out when the last grandchild was gone – again, it wasn’t her fault. Her children do love their mother and the relationship is much better now that they don’t live together, but they have told me privately that they would never again stay with her for more than a few days at a time, my wife sees the improvement and assumes it is because they are now living alone and are away from the father, but I know that they still love their father too. Today she hinted she doesn’t want to continue seeing our marriage counselor, again, it is his fault, it seems he didn’t start and end every session with a prayer. So today I am a little emotionally down. We move 10 steps forward and jump 9 ½ steps back. I can see we are moving forward but, it is very slow and frustrating. Why can’t she see the truth which is so obvious? Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent. mdaye, if you see this, don’t be afraid to keep in touch. I’m not normally so negative. And I think we both could use the support. | ||
| rachellengland (rachellengland) Intermediate Member Username: rachellengland Post Number: 248 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 |
BA-I'm okay with venting You sir will be in my prayers. All these things you told me, are signs she is involved in a CULT. When we start forsaking family members (because they don't believe as we do) and we can't seem to get along with anyone unless they think like us, something is terribly wrong. Keep the faith BA. I know and sense you want what's best-and really there is no need to pray before and after a session tell your wife God sees and knows our hearts. Take care and I too hope mdaye learns from this and will stand strong-there is nothing wrong for defending oneself especially when children are involved! | ||
| mikko (mikko) Intermediate Member Username: mikko Post Number: 413 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.242.21.100 |
the true christian has no business marrying an unbeliever ,the scriptures warn of this in 2 Corinthians 6 | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
milko: Either you have no idea what you are talking about or you are in the wrong place. Read what this thread is about and the previous posts before making that statement. Thanks Rachel. Something is terribly wrong alright. I would say that the cult behavior is more her own thing, but her Church culture does feed this thought. It has to do more with her take on the scripture and what she actually hears with the preaching. Not everyone in Church is like her but, the ministers do feed into her behavior and only see her as more godly when she acts the way she does. You see, there isn’t anything really wrong with any one thing she does, in fact, each behavior when viewed by itself is probably good. It is when we look at the package where we see the toxic faith emerge. She knows she has gone beyond the limit with me and I do see very small changes, but it is difficult and slow. She has agreed to try different Churches, but I’m not sure she will accept anything other than this fundamentalism. Fortunately, children are pretty much grown so it is not a major issue. Like I said earlier, I am very emotionally down today, but tomorrow is another day. Thanks again. Your advice and words of encouragement are very helpful. | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
Does your wife's church run bus routes? I honestly think that his religion preys on the poor and dumb people. Sorry, but I think it's true. They run their busses to the slums and they know that these people will let their kids go, because they don't take care of their kids anyway. The vast majority of the adults I see in attendance there (with the exception of the preacher and his family) are either low class, uneducated or physically or mentally handicapped. I honestly think that they see these people as easy targets. They have no transportation. They pick them up in the busses, take them to church, feed them (free meal) and take them home. A lot of the kids are very unkempt. You can tell that they just dragged out of bed and came to church. Their parents could care less and may not even know where they are, so they will never question what they are being taught. They would be afraid that the free babysitting would end for them. And top it off with a free meal for their kids...wow!! Then if they're real lucky, they'll come and pick them up on Sun night too. I don't know if all these things are true for your wife's church,, but that's the case at FIL's church. My husband really doesn't live by the standards of the church. He has never been soul winning that I know of. He drinks beer. He just wants to go their about every 6 months to please his parents. And maybe to get his dad off his back?? Honestly I don't think my MIL would ever darken the doors of the church again when FIL dies. She is forced to go. It's very obvious to me that she doesn't want to be there. Maybe that's why she's so hateful all the time and has such a chip on her shoulder. Sorry this was sooo long. Once I get started, it's hard for me to stop!! I wish I could give you some advice. Have you found another church that's similar, but not as radical. How about southern Baptist or Cumberland Presbyterian? I've attended both of these churches and while their beliefs are conservative, they don't exclude other religions or discourage fellowship with other denominations. In fact, they encourage it. They also don't do the soul winning bit... Just a thought. I hope you can get her away from this destructive religion. I'm more and more convinced each day that it's a cult. (Message edited by mdaye on February 16, 2006) | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
Had to split the post, too long!! My husband really doesn't live by the standards of IFB. He still has some things ingrained in him, like the beliefs on Catholics and King James only bible thing. He doesn't actively attend any church. I think he really could care less if he ever went to church again. He has had religion shoved down his throat so much that he's sick of it, I'm sure. Imagine attended one of the schools sponsered by this church. He said they had to sit in cubicle and raise a little flag on their desks if they needed help. They didn't have teachers there, just parents or other church members. They had to stay 6 inches from children of the opposite sex. Corporal punishment was used too much and was too extreme in my opinion. They were whipped until they had bruises for minor offenses. My husband has broken away from most of it. But his father nags us to death to come to church out there. He finally gives in about every 6 months and we have to go. I have to go too, or he'll take our 2 year old daughter without me. My SIL completely shuns the church all together. So luckily, they have both broken most of the holds of the church. One other quick question: Does your wife use terms like reprobate and charasmatic? What do they mean? I had never heard these terms until I met my FIL!! | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
mdaye: Before we were married she took me to an inner-city mission where she volunteered on a few occasions. I think she wanted to get my reaction. The homeless would come in, listen to a service and pray before they would get to eat. The service was very “repent sinners - in your face stuff”. I told her this was very obnoxious in my way of thinking and we never went back. I should have suspected her bent on evangelism, but love is blind. The shelters I personally volunteered at over the years never expected or required anything from those in need. We live in a different area now and I made the mistake of allowing her to pick a church. The requirement that the recipient of aid from the church pray, is always there, maybe not written down as a rule, but an unwritten rule nevertheless. It sounds like you and your husband will be just fine, at least he was able to break away and open his eyes. I would strongly recommend those books I mentioned. Since he is past the need to continue in his parent’s church and is now going to one that is more open, he might be very open to reading the books. 2 of her children only attend when my wife is around. Her 3rd child attends a more “liberal” Baptist church and feels good with that. None of them want to attend the IFB. Children and sometimes spouses will do strange things because of emotional attachments. The good news, my wife is beginning to open to the idea of a new church, our counselor suggested the southern Baptists as a change. She didn’t balk but she did say she would refuse to attend a “wishy-washy” church. I like what you said about the Southern Baptist, I guess I’ll look into it. Can you tell me a little more about your experience with the Southern Baptist and/or Cumberland Presbyterian. From your short comment, it might be just the thing we need. Conservative, which she needs yet, a church that encourages relationships with those outside the group and avoids the soul winning bit, which is more in line with my thinking. Keep up the spirits. | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
The Southern Baptist and Cumberland Presbyterian denominations are almost alike. Only slight differences in government and baptism. The CP church recognizes both sprinkling and immersion and has a government of elders and no church wide votes. The Southern Baptist recognize immersion as the only type of baptism and have a government that allows church wide votes. Most are open to contemporary christian music, praise choruses, etc. Most allow drums/guitars and other instruments in the church. They do not preach seperation and are on independent. They both belong to larger governing bodies. They fellowship with other Christians of all denominations and oftentimes participate in communtiy wide services where are churches are welcome. Our churches in our community (except the IFB's) have 5th Sunday night services where we rotate host churches and all participate together. They do believe that the blood of Jesus is the only way of salvation, but they don't shove it down your throats all the time. They believe in inviting people to church but dont' go in the door to door soul winning fashion. A lot of times we have special singings, dinners, programs, or fun activities to get other people in the community involved. The basic belief is that the church is here and it's up to the people to come at their own free will. Not because someone harrassed them or twisted their arm into coming. I think you would find it a refreshing change. But I must tell you that the IFB's split of the southern Baptist, because they think that we're too liberal. So if she mentions it to her church or pastor, they will discourage it. Good luck!! And I'm going to look into those books. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
mday: I re-read your earlier post and just to answer your earlier question, I think you meant “charismatic”. That would be the preacher with the ability to bring in huge groups into the service. They probably use a large auditorium or stadium for their place of so-called worship. They sometimes claim to perform miracles, like instant faith healing. Yes, the people in my wife’s church would claim to hate charismatics, but I’m sure they would all like to be one. You are certainly right about one thing, they seem to be more interested in complaining or criticizing the faith of others, especially Catholics, than in talking about what is good. In one church we tried, which I won’t go back to, the preacher read a few lines of scripture and then spent over an hour (I’m not exaggerating) talking about how sinful the other Baptist churches were because they used guitars in their music. I actually chuckled (my wife poked me) when I realized he had what he called “true Christian music” tapes for sale. What a flim-flam artist! My wife’s belief in corporal punishment was very unsettling to me. Fortunately, it is very unlikely that this will be of concern. Last Sunday we went to an evening service where the minister was talking so fast, moving from scripture to scripture that I couldn’t follow him. But he did talk about the use of the “rod” to get children to comply. Personally; I believe hitting should be rare and only after a long string of consequences that don’t take care of the problem. On the other hand, she thinks the “rod” is the first choice when dealing with little children. This is what I believe the church taught her. I have done a lot of thinking and studying about IFB and have concluded that it can be a dangerous group which should be avoided, but it all depends on the leadership. They probably do more harm in their evangelism in that they separate people from each other and promote hate and intolerance. They don’t see this self-righteous behavior that outsiders despise. I don’t think they are all cult groups, but I do believe some are, again, it depends on the leadership Thanks for you input, it just might help. However, the music selection in the Southern Baptist and Cumberland Presbyterian might be a problem for my wife. Could I assume that they would not all use the contemporary style of music? I purchased those books through Amazon, prices were good. Maybe they would be available in the local library? | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
Not all Southern Baptist or Cumberland Pres churches use guitars or drums. The experience I have had is that they are used on special occasions or with special music. Sometimes also when singing groups come it. Yes, I meant charismatic. What did I write...no telling, I was writing so much, so fast. I agree that this religion focuses way too much time on the fault of others and way to little time on the faults of themselves. Very self righteous people from my experience. And, some of their views on corporal punishment are troublesome to me. I have seen a member of MIL and FIL's church take a 2 or 3 year old child out of church, just for whispering or sitting on the floow and spanking him several times throughout the service. What a way to teach a child to love church and the Lord!! Those children are scared to death. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.118.139.94 |
mdaye: Those poor children, most likely they will grow up either hating the church, or become zombie-like in following its teachings, not unlike oppressed groups of the past. We attended a Southern Baptist church today. It wasn’t perfect for me but, I wouldn’t mind going back; my guess is that we won’t. I thought it was very nice. The topic was “social injustice” where we discussed a proper behavior in a biblical sense. Overall, I think my wife liked it except the minister didn’t use the KJV. We talked to him briefly and I think he said he used the NIV. He also said that many in the congregation use the KJV, so we are to use whatever version we feel most comfortable. My wife however, feels that the KJV is the only true version. She has said to me previously that other versions are influenced by Satan. I think the KJV is fine, but not perfect and I actually prefer some of the other versions. So you see my dilemma. This attitude her church has taught is very unsettling, and she just plain refuses to look or listen to anything that isn’t lock-step with what she has been taught. If I put on the television or radio, she will walk out, unless it is Christian radio. She will not read a mainstream paper, except for the ads. She will not read from a different bible because she might get a different message. She will only socialize with “godly” people, which means it has to be with members of her Church. One positive thing I have going, she wants me to read scripture with her, and in that end, I can influence her slightly. I have told her minister that I can’t interpret the bible literally and remain sane, I explained why and my wife didn’t balk when she heard my comments. This is an improvement from six months ago. Also, even though we haven’t agreed on a church yet, we are now walking into something other than IFB. Although it may not seem like much, these are major improvements in her attitude. Another question, does the Southern Baptist use only one bible, or does that change from locality. Thanks for keeping in touch. (Message edited by ba2 on February 19, 2006) | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
The Southern Baptist church that I attend uses NIV, KJV, new KJV. Those are the only ones that I heard the preacher read from. He uses different versions depending on the message he's preaching and sometimes reads from all three versions in one sermon. We don't believe that the KJV is the only true version. My husband and I have had this discussion more than once. I bought him a bible that has 4 version in one. So it has 4 versions side by side on one page. You might try buying one for your wife, so she could compare scriptures and see that it's only slightly different from one version to the other. To me NIV is much easier to understand. Yes, that denomination has quite a hold on it's members and they are stubborn and unwilling to hear any other point of view from my experience. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
mdaye: A while back, I saw a 4 version copy a lady was using in Church. I pointed it out to my wife and she insisted that that was a bad idea. She thought it would only confuse you, I thought just the opposite. That was six months ago, maybe she would be a little more open now. A really great document that should convince most reasonable people that KJV is not necessarily the only bible to use can be found at: http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm It does not suggest that the KJV is bad, in fact just the opposite. It does however; point out some of its problems, which the IFB won’t acknowledge. It is about 30 pages. I plan to give it to my wife some time in the future. Your situation is a little different than mine in that your husband has already pretty much divorced himself from the IFB. This is pretty much the same for my wife’s children. They, like your husband, are still somewhat controlled by the parent. So, after being pushed, they will succumb and go to the IFB a few times a year. I could live with that. In my wife’s children’s case, they were able to break the bonds of control soon after they were able to leave home, which was around ages 16-18. I don’t think they ever liked the IFB. Another question, when did your husband break away from this hold? Was there anything special that got him to open his mind? Did he read something or see something? Basically, I am looking for ideas. By the way, I am almost finished reading “Twisted Scriptures” and although it started slow, I think it might actually be the best of the ones I read so far. It might be one I could actually share with my wife. Thanks for your help. | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
Well, I don't know if the hold has completely been broken. Still if pushed he will say that the KJV is best and he thinks that soul winning is acceptable. Pretty much, my husband doesn't practice any religion at all. I think he would be fine with going back to the IFB, but I don't think that he would be sucked into like a lot of people. I think he would just attend Sun morn services and leave it at that. As I've said before, having religion shoved down his throat has had an adverse affect on him. He basically doesn't care if he ever goes to church again, though he's not willing to admit that. He left home when he was 19 and joined the Marines. I think that's when he got away from the IFB. I know the Marines aren't an option for your wife He was just basically exposed to different walks of life and I think it opened him up some. He had been so sheltered living with his mom and dad who preach IFB nonstop. Then on top of that he had to attend the school, which involved at least an hour of preaching a day. Plus Sun morn, Sun night and Wed night services. He went soul winning on Sat morning. He said the only day he didn't have to go to church was Sat, but of course they still drug all the kids soul winning. So that's 8 church services a week.. that's a lot. Plus, if you've ever attended the IFB church, you know that their services are very lengthy. The preaching is soooo long. I have never sat through a long sermon in my life. One Sun night we went out there and church started at 6pm. He started preaching about 6:15pm and didn't stop until 8:45pm. Luckily I had an 18 month old at the time and there was no way that she could sit through that!! We got to escape to the nursery for the last hour or so. I'm definitely going to check into that Twisted Scriptures book. I mentioned Jack Hyles to my husband and the Hyles Anderson college to see what he had been taught about that. He thought is was a good place. I told him some of the stuff that has gone on there and he was shocked. He believed it though. I guess that's the difference between him and your wife. He will listen to some reason. He has been out of it for 16 years though. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.118.158.28 |
mdaye: He may not be completely free, but he is pretty far along. I think I would work on deveolping his reasoning. The books I mentioned are all very good and since he is pretty open, it might benifit him to read them. That indoctrination he grew up with is probably very hard to break. As far as the KJV only attitude, have a look at that link I gave you in my previous post. I made it pretty clear to my wife that I can't continue going to the IFB church, we are trying others but she just wants to go back. We will see... Anyway, yes the Marines are out. Let me know what you think of the books and previous link on KJV only. | ||
| nanabt (nanabt) New member Username: nanabt Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 164.58.89.2 |
mdaye & ba2: Boy are you guys bringing back old childhood memories that I thought were buried so deep they would never see the light of day. My father was a fundamental independent baptist preacher, so I was raised in an IFB church. I was saved & baptized at 5 years old. I, until today, never thought of it as a cult. But after really thinking about it I would have to agree that it is. ba2 - I can not tell you how to get your wife away from this group but I can pray for you both. My father is a firm believer in KJV only, but I always had problems understanding it so I bought a NKJV (after I left home). It takes out all the thees & thous & it is much easier to understand. This is my prefered Bible, probably because it has been pounded into my head, but maybe that is the best way to go... one step at a time. You are in my thoughts & prayers, & thank you for some books to take a look at. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
Have you looked at the site I mentioned? http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm It supports the use of the KJV but also points out many problems with it. The other day, an IFB minister said to me that God knew that english was going to become the world language so he inspired the writing of the KJV in english and made it 100% literally acurate. If my wife didn't buy right into this stuff, I would just bust out laughing and never return to one of these IFB churched again. | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
That makes no sense whatsoever ba!! Did your wife believe it? I'm sure she did. Those churches really do have quite a hold on people. nanabt: Does your dad still preach at an IFB church? If so, is he okay with you attending a church of a differnt denomonation or reading a different style of bible? My FIL will hound us to death until we finally give in and go to their church for one service. It's like he doesn't consider the southern baptist church I attend good enough. Kinda like we're not going to church at all in his eyes, I guess. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 |
mdaye: I think she might have believed it. But I responded to him by telling him it sounded like he viewed the translators of the 1611 KJV as Prophets. Later she said she kind of sees where I am coming from, big improvement from a few months ago. Yes, my wife is still held to these bizarre beliefs, but it is getting better. She is trying other churches but keeps wanting to return to IFB. I know she wasn’t thrilled with the Southern Baptist Church we attended last week, but she just couldn’t verbalize why. Yes, those IFB churches really do have quite a hold on people. I am curious as to how you and others would view the information from that website I gave you. I would like to have a few different comments before I move forward with it. | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
I thought the website was very interesting. If I were you I'd show it to her. She might not believe it, but I don't think it would be offensive. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.118.145.25 |
Thanks mdaye, I probably will have her take a look. I'll wait for the right time though. Have you bounced it off your husband? Any reaction? Anyone else? | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
no I haven't had him look at it yet. Maybe I will and then I'll get to you. Knowing how argumentative he is, he'll probably just disregard it. I'll show it to him this afternoon or tomorrow and let you know. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.118.146.27 |
That sounds good, but don't do this if you think it will start an argument. I know how touchy this subject can be. This is one of the many reasons I think the IFB is pretty much a cult. We have to be so careful when bringing anything forward that in even the simplest way could be seen as criticizing | ||
| mdaye (mdaye) New member Username: mdaye Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 68.216.132.81 |
Yeah I know what you mean!!! We just got back from spending the afternoon with my inlaws, so I'll probably wait until next weekend to approach it. He'll think it's a personal attack on his family, if I do it tonight or even tomorrow. My SIL and husband were talking about the "principal" of their IFB school (who was also the preacher's brother). They were talking about their dislike for this man. My SIL said that there was no way I could understand all the stuff this man put them through. I'm sure that's true. Unfortunately she and my husband didn't elaborate, but she told my MIL that she should be glad the they didn't require psychotherapy for all of it. | ||
| ba2 (ba2) Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.118.142.166 |
mdaye: Yes, wait for a good moment, don’t start an argument. Preservation of marriage is of the utmost importance. Did you know that of all Christian marriages, the independent fundamentalists have the highest likelihood of being divorced? Lutheran and Catholic have the lowest. Independent fundamentalists are the highest with mainline Baptists just below them. If you are familiar with research design, the differences are statistically significant. I have my thoughts as to why this is the case but, the whole point is to be careful. My wife’s daughter has often told me of the horrible stuff she went through in her IFB school. She went through all 12 years and now hates it. She only slightly touches on her real feelings when her mother is present. Her children are fairly normal except that they won’t tell their mother how they really feel. Her oldest son likes to drink beer but the mother doesn’t know it. He is 28 years old and still jumps when his mother calls. I will think of him as fully grown when I see him order a drink in her presence. 2 of her 3 children pretty much have abandoned the church but will occasionally attend when they visit on a Sunday. I think this generally keeps them from being around us on Sunday. If I can be successful in getting my wife to change churches, I think it might actually improve the relationship she has with her children. Very slowly, I see improvement. The IFB certainly has affected her family relationships in a very negative way. I think anyone that is involved in the IFB might benefit from psychotherapy. But I think they might have been programmed to distrust any therapists unless they are specifically approved by their IFB church. I know my wife believes that psychologists are satanic. I’ll probably try showing that KJV stuff within a few weeks, when the time is right and I will let you know about her reaction. Take care. | ||
| las New member Username: las Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 142.165.225.99 |
Well I'm glad folks are speaking up concerning Baptist churches i sometimes wonder how to take all these Baptist groups since there are so many of them..I am ex2x2(workers friends church in the home)I have a Baptist friend from a Baptist church in our town he told me the group is totally Independant from other Baptist church groups yet they maintain the Baptist name it is hard to figure out? Can any help? | ||
| las New member Username: las Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 142.165.225.99 |
I am having problems checking out the many Baptist church groups listen up there is not one group on the face of the earth that should be exempt from paying out compensation as most are guilty of abuse spiritually ,sexually, financially what ever? | ||
| ba2 Senior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 1154 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.16.117 |
las I will say that I have had some major league issues with the independent Baptist churches. But I have come to realize that some are better than others. What I find is that you will have no idea what you are walking into when you visit an independent Baptist church. The flavor of the minister can make it a peaceful, loving environment or a hateful, scary place to be. One will preach the love of Jesus, the other will preach hell and damnation. Some will ignore the NT while focusing on the OT rules. Some will be very legalistic. Almost all want your money. Some will be just plain weird or dangerous - Jim Jones, for example. All seem to claim that they and those just like them are the only ones that have it right – with all others ending up in a lake of fire. When they are independent, the interpretation and mindset of the individual minister sets the tone. When that minister retires or leaves, it could have a complete about face when the new minister takes over. I too wonder how 2 churches that might be so different can call themselves by the same name. And I agree with you about the taxes. I’ll go one step further. No church or organization should be tax exempt. Members of churches and organizations should have a membership fee based on the basic financial needs of the organization. You have an operational yearly cost of $100,000 with 200 members. Each member pays $500 a year for membership. Get rid of the exchange of money in God's house. |
