| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
i am a survivor of generational cultic abuse. my family environment was poly-incestuous, poverty stricken throughout, and there was constant violence/chaos in all of its forms. my father was/is sociopathic. he was cruel, sadistic, anti-god, anti-religion, counter-cultural in all of his beliefs, and deeply into courting evil in all ways and forms. i was 'his' to shape and to mold. and in an atmosphere of captivity, isolation, and total terrorism and dependency, i learned to love him, worship him, believe him - with all of my heart. i've had 17 years of therapy and 17 years of abstinence from alcholol and drugs. but i still hate myself. i still never feel like i 'fit' in anywhere. i still trust no one deeply or believe in anything. there have been a multitude of re-victimization experiences besides (myself and my children). how does one heal?????????????????????????????? i am sooooooooooo tired of 'not fitting' in. and really - i have trained myself to be the total antithesis of what he was/is and what my family raised me to be. i am kind, considerate, loving, honest, caring, and good. but it seems like i just get hurt over and over and over again. and i don't want to try anymore. i just want to give up. | ||
| Yaakov |
Are you married to your children’s father? What is the age of your kids? Did you have different therapists during those 17 years? In what way are you continuing to get hurt? Are you still in contact with your father? Do you have any other relatives that you would consider “normal”? What don’t you want to try anymore? What exactly do you want to give up? | ||
| Anonymous |
my children's father is 'one of.' i left him years and years ago. my children are grown/young adults. one of them is cult/gang involved - in a different county from where i grew up (we moved/were accessed here & experienced a whole new form of terrorism here -----). i've had a few different therapists. a couple of 'good' ones. lately i've been striking out - or i am looking for something that is not there to find. my hurt is probably self-imposed at this point. i had made a lot of progress in all realms of my life - and then broke down through workaholism/obsessive perfectionist behaviors - early this year. no one even has to abuse me now. i do it to myself. i can't seem to get on my feet again. i am depressed. i have lost all willingness to try again and all courage to do so. 'everything' to me seems 'cultic' and i am paranoid i guess ------- i just want to hide. am hiding. but i am so bored. everything feels so meaningless. and i feel so bad about myself. i am constantly critisized by people who 'think' i should be able to do more --- 'be' more than i am. no one knows what i have been through - or the silent battles i must fight every single day. this is self-pity here, big time. and dangerous for me. i do see my father a few times a year. and other family members. their world and mine are totally alien. it is all pretense now - on both ends. no - noone is 'normal.' that was never an option or a choice. i want out of my skin. out of this existance. but i am not actively suicidal - just wishing i could vanish, dissappear, no longer have to trudge on. i'm not looking for any 'heros' either. that is not an option. the only hero i've ever accessed is the little kid inside of myself. but right now, i guess, she is hiding too. | ||
| olska |
Anonymous, Wish I had a magic wand to wish away your pain, but i don't. But I can tell you a little of my own journey, in the hope it might help. First, everyone's entitled to some self-pity now and then, so allow yourself that -- just don't get lost in it. And remember that others find it tiresome, so indulge yourself when you're alone. It's OK to grieve the disapointments, hurts, losses, etc. of a life that was messed up or that just didn't turn out like you hoped. And that's not the same as self pity -- it's the same kind of grief you'd feel at loss of a good friend, when grieving is absolutely appropriate. At about age 45, I found myself swamped in grief and self pity, unhappy with feeling that way, but it wouldn't go away. Finally, I just gave myself permission to grieve my "lost youth," all the years of my life that had gone by and been used up with hurts, disappointments, missed opportunities, boring situations, stupid mistakes I'd made, and so forth. My life just hadn't turned out as I'd hoped, and it was too late in life to change that. I'd missed my chance at some of the things i thought would bring me happiness, and there was no way to turn back time, to go back and do it again. But once that grieving was done I was able to look at the FUTURE of my life and to have some realistic ideas of what was yet possible, and to thus move on from sadness and regret over the past and work on finding the happiness that is out there for people in their middle and older age. To get "out of your skin" as you put it, you can even get the IDEA of your "old self" dying (but please don't actually commit suicide because you'll lose all the experience you've gained, and that experience can be very useful!) and then the idea of your "new self" being born, now, to give yourself a fresh start. Sort of like "born again" with or without the Christian part, as you like. It might seem silly, but then again it might help a little. In my way I will pray for you. | ||
| Anonymous |
olska i just turned 45. i am married to a man who is 59. and both of us started this radical downhill turn (he phsyically, me mentally) in the past 6 months. the loss of my job - which was in a very 'cult-like' environment - was devastating. i was love bombed big time - worked harder and harder and harder to 'impress' and be liked - and then, when it became too much and i asked for some consideration and respect - i was turned on viciously. i ended up resigning - then being fired two days later. i have been totally shunned by everyone i worked with. all of whom i thought were 'friends.' i absolutely loved my job and was very, very good at it. when all of this was happening major ptsd symptoms kicked in - and, long story short - i think i have a broken heart. again. also - i 'rescued' my son from a counter-cultural group whos leader deemed them his 'family' (not real creative)- and we went through hell --------- we put the main perp in prison. but went through horrible harrassment, threats, terrorism. the guy only got 4 years - is out now. and the rest of the 'group' & the perps real family' lives all around us. we are never 'safe.' my son would never get counseling. he continued to hang with 'gang/cult' members - and things have gone downhill to the point where he once again 'chooses them' and hates me. he is covered with tattoos (the latest signifying the 'sign of the beast') - he is an active alcoholic - he abuses women - he neglects and abuses his children (i have made cps reports) - and lord only knows what else -------- he has started to hang with 'young' boys (also reported) - and i fear he is going the perpetrator route - even after all we went through / have done. these are my 'sadnesses.' they go on and on. i got 'out' of my cultish system - to a degree - but it follows me through my children and the 'families' they hook into. all seven of my grandchildren have been exposed to domestic violence; 2 have already suffered direct physical abuse, 2 have already suffered sexual abuse. the oldest is 8. nothing i have done or said has made a damn bit of difference. it is so pathetic - how the past 'holds on.' and there is a lot that i will not put here. it just seems so hopeless, ya know? it really does. thank you for your kindness. | ||
| olska |
Anonymous, Your feelings of hopelessness are surely understandable. Again, I wish I had some magic to offer -- unfortunately, I don't. Here are some thoughts, though. If none of this is helpful, just ignore it. nothing i have done or said has made a damn bit of difference. It may seem that way, but might not really be true. You may be seeing the whole, big, awful situation and be thinking that in order to do any good at all, you must fix the entire thing, which is of course impossible! First, don't put yourself down because you can't find a way to make EVERYTHING alright. NO single individual could do so! Look for small, little things, maybe only one little thing that you can set right, that you could do to make a small difference, especially when it comes to the grandchildren. Small differences -- something so small as one hug, one smile, one small gesture of love and understanding -- can have a huge ripple effect in people's lives, sometimes beyond what you could ever imagine. My own life has been deeply affected by a passing comment made by a stranger or by someone on TV, and they of course never knew they had changed my life. I'm sure this has happened to others. Your children have made their choices and since they are adults, even if they are messed up, their lives are now in their own hands. In my opinion, all you can really do for them is pray for them and be available if they ever do come to you for help. Try not to dwell on things you might have done differently with them. The truth is, we all make the best decisions we are able to make at the time we make them, and we only see the outcome later. But the grandchildren, even though they've already suffered, may not be lost. One small, but still very powerful, thing you can do for them is to let them know that what they are experiencing is not right, that they should not be treated that way, and that one day they WILL grow up and they can then escape and build a better life for themselves. That seems obvious to adults, but it isn't obvious to children. Just letting them know there are other possibilities may be enough for them to hang on until they are grown, and hope for a better future. And if you have the opportunity, point out to them, in real life, people and situations that are healthy and happy so that they can see the difference and have an ideal to hold onto. Do this in a quiet way that does not create a scene with their parents (because that might make things worse for them!). Again, in my way I will pray for you. By the way, I'm curious about the "cult-like" job you had -- if you care to share it, who were these people? Sounds similar to something I've encountered. Only answer if you feel safe doing so. | ||
| Anonymous |
olska thank you for your wisdom and kindness. i am going to try to hold onto that - the little things that can make a big difference..... i know this is true. i have experienced this too in my life (a positive). the job i had was 'amazingly' at a very well known, very highly regarded non-profit agency. i was selected for inner-promotion and coached, conjoled, and complimented to the top. i did very well. i put in well over 40 hour weeks and did way more than an hourly employee should - only to find that 'asking' for anything (on my own behalf - and more than reasonable) was totally and completely taboo. what? me - have needs? no way. squash. out like a bug. what was your situation? i am curious also (if okay with you). i partly blame my own naivette and eagerness to please --- but also know that i was exploited --- and that i deserved a whole lot better than i got. plus - the absolute shunning when i left ???????? bizarre. i went from one of the 'most popular people' there to a 'nobody' = in a heartbeat or less. it really did devastate me. that people could turn on me that quickly and radically over a very small (comparitive to other things) issue. thank you for helping me out here. today is a little better than yesterday. and my dark moods can be very dark. you can call me gizmo if you like - better than just anon. | ||
| olska |
Gizmo (cool name!), I was once involved in a cult "religion" that has many front groups, some non-profit social agency types, and also has theories on business management used by its members who are out for the big bucks (as was the "religion"). There, too, one was expected to "give all" for the "cause," and looking after one's own needs was generally looked down on. Of course, the high-ups in both the religion and the businesses always got what they needed. It's old history because I've been out for years, but the experience is hard to get out of my head, if you know what I mean. I'm glad to hear that today is better for you. Little by little. Patience was never my strength as a young person, but as I get older it grows. I have to get off the computer now, but I'll be back. Thinking good thoughts for you. | ||
| Anonymous |
olska i can't begin to thank you enough for your help and feedback. i felt sooooo alone. and really i am. i've hidden from the world, basically, since march. i've retreated more and more into depression and self-pity and self-blame. i've just been hanging on by my thumbnails - truly - real close to drinking (which equates for me with becoming actively suicidal) & a lot of the time just not giving a d***. another aspect of this has been disillusionment with aa and 'its' cultlike aspects. 16+ years of being told - basically - that 'everything' was/is my fault, that i need to find 'god' or get drunk, that i need to 'forgive and forget' and get on with my life, that i can't afford anger --------- and then, the worst part --- being accessed and victimized time after time by users and abusers of every type that find the aa rooms very 'hospitable.' it is really a playground for sociopaths. and it took me this long to finally listen to my gut. one illusion by the wayside after another ------- and here i sit, trying to figure out 'where did i go wrong?' how could one try so hard to find a better life, 'work' so hard towards a better life - and just end up in a whole different pile of ****? your job feedback is very helpful. one part of me screams out that this place where i worked - a not for profit agency - could not possibly be as 'cultish' as my gut tells me it is, and that everything that went down there is my fault. and yet another part of me screams out - but what, exactly, did i do wrong????????????????????????? i built the program i was in charge of from nothing to a major county development. i was in the newspaper - full page article - kudos and publicity for the program and how great i had done. i got a raise two weeks before resigning. and i resigned because when i told them i was 'burning out' and needed 'my' employee to do work for my program (she was working for everyone else instead of for the program that was paying her - mine), i found myself the recipient of 'out of nowhere' criticizm and hostility that i could not take. all i asked for was what was 'supposed' to be (ethically, practically, and legally) to begin with ----------------- you would think i had asked for a gold plated desk. and also - earlier on, i had stood my ground and refused to take part in some things that were not exactly legal. i suppose that is really where it began --------------------------- it hurt really bad. i can tell you that. and it sounds like maybe you know this hurt. i needed to connect with someone who does. others tell me - well, that's the work world for you; you got to go along to get along; that you have to compromise your principles and be a 'team player' to succeed; etc. etc. i was a team player!!!!!!! but for some reason i was the part of the team doing all of the work, standing up for the integrity of my program; and consequently ----------------- unemployed. and yes, the people at the 'top' are very, very well paid for doing very little real work. they pull the strings and the puppets dance. i just could not dance any faster. ah well. thank you, thank you, thank you - again. i think i am coming out of this darkness. you really have helped me tremendously. gizmo | ||
| olska |
gizmo, Hi again, glad to hear the darkness is leaving. I say: trust your gut! Most of the times that I did not trust mine, or saw the little red flags waving and went on anyway, I headed straight into trouble or heartbreak or both. Also I don't think you do have to compromise your integrity to get along. Though I can't say its been tested and proved 100% true, I think that when a door closes because you stand up for yourself, your dignity, and your integrity, another better door opens. Sometimes you have to look around a bit to find the open door, but it's there. Well anyway I like to believe that. I think I hear myself getting preachy, so I'll stop now and check in with you tomorrow. It works both ways, you know -- I needed something to do today besides start my own pity party over something really insignificant, but nevertheless painful, that happened earlier. And here you were, looking for a conversation! So I thank you, as well. | ||
| Anonymous |
olska i am in the process of leaving an online support group for adults abused as children. i discovered it after losing my job, and it helped me - in so many ways - to get through these past few months... it helped, to a large degree through my reaching out to help others, as you have done here for me. it does indeed work both ways - and it means a lot to me to have a purpose/to be of help to others. it was/is a 'false reality' - enabling me to hide here in my home - i guess (this is my husband's accusation). but it was also a lifeline. i connected real well with some survivors(like i have here with you) and it helped me to believe i could pull through. the problem: abusive people that come on and just try to hurt/cause trouble - over and over and over again (the site was not well moderated). and 'big' disputes sometimes with people trying to evangelize/convert people to their faith. the latter is a major 'trigger' for me. anyhow - i am still popping in there some - because some people are now hurt by my leaving. and i am, at the same time looking for other places to share (how i found this site) that are maybe 'safer.' do you/others come here regularly? i mean - i can already tell my husband is 'freaking' that i have now found a 'cult' abuse sort of support group. he had enough 'trouble' dealing with the other one. i cannot 'connect' much with 'real' (face to face stuff) people right now. i just can't. my trust levels are at zero. and my willingness to 'try' is too. i know this is not healthy. but it is where i am. i believe that it will pass in time. it has before. are you in a safe place now? you sound strong and centered. please feel free to share with me too if you like. i don't mean to monopolize. (the self-pity piece is leaving). what brought you here to this site? is it okay to ask? there is soooooo much in my background that is relational to this. sooooo much. but i worry too about becoming too hypercritical/paranoid of everything and everyone. where do the boundry lines come in - between good 'sales' skills, persuasive techniques, business management skills, etc ----------- and brainwashing/mind control? how do you trust again when life has shown you that people are 'rarely' what they seem - that even the most 'innocent and kind' people can have devious and manipulative motives? an example: when my son was abused and we were prosecuting his abuser, a guy in aa (seemed legit) was real supportive, always wanted to know how things were going, etc. etc. ----------- and i was to find out that everything i said was going back to the abuser - that these guys were the best of friends (and no doubt fellow pedophiles). over and over and over again. different circumstances. same betrayals. it is only the anonymity of this type of site - that allows me to express myself at all right now. do you feel it is unhealthy to do this? do you have people in your life that think it is? wishing you a wonderful day ------- gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
Olska, your 12:34 was a real beaut. It included almost everything I was going to say, and then some. The only thing left that I can add is a personal experience. In my teens, I thought my life was bad. But, I got volunteered to work on a suicide prevention hot line (received some training also). Wow! Getting those calls made me realize just how good I had it. I lost those negative feelings real fast. So, Gizmo, you may want to do some volunteer work for a place with people that are even LESS fortunate than you. It may give you some new perspective into your own life. Also, stop taking so much responsibility for other people's lives onto yourself. People make their own choices and there isn't a darn thing that you can do about it. BTW, gizmo, did you start (or participate) on the threads that 1) compare a gang to a cult and 2) state that AA is a type of cult? If not, you might want to check them out. | ||
| Anonymous |
yaakov - i posted the gang vs cult question - and on the aa thread. i just didn't post by 'gizmo' there. i did do the volunteer hotline for a bit (it wasn't suicide prevention though - it was open to all types of calls). problem - some very 'triggering' calls that i could not handle (pedophiles wanting to 'discuss' their compulsion & worse). not stuff i can personally handle (ptsd). along with unsafe working conditions (had to walk a long way in the dark to the parking area). still - this is a great idea. and maybe one to try again in a different facility with a specific goal ----------- i do know there are many much less fortunate than me. but i also know that sometimes the man with no shoes versus the man with no legs stuff doesn't always work to pull me out of depression or self-hate. sometimes kindness does it. and in turn - when back on my 'feet' - i am very willing and happy to spread this kindness around. i just need to find a safe place to do so. and in my own experience - this has been difficult - other than on boards such as this. people on these boards do make a real-life difference. i have been on both ends of this (giving and receiving). thanks for your input. gizmo | ||
| olska |
Hi gizmo, Some months ago I got onto a board similar to this one, devoted to the cult I was part of years ago. Discussions there have been very helpful and healing. This site came up through a link from the other one. I live alone, so there's no one here to object. If there were someone here, probably they would be upset with me, because for the last several months I've spent a lot of time (probably too much) on the net. I think it could become unhealthy, and that's something to be alert about. But it can also be positive, as you know. I hope your husband will understand and be patient with you. As to hiding out, I think we need to do that when we've been badly wounded. Wounded animals find a cave or burrow to hide in and nurse their wounds until they are strong enough to go on. Why should human creatures be any different? My own way of healing (and hiding out) is sleeping. I used to feel very guilty about it, but finally I realized that it was just my natural way of healing both physical and emotional ills. Then I found some scientific psychological study on the i-net that supported that theory! About trust. I think I have expected too much of people, and then when they let me down I'm hurt and disappointed and betrayed. So I am learning (trying, slowly) to expect nothing from anyone, to accept that as the "way of life." And then just be pleased when things work well with others. As an adult what I've experienced has been mostly emotional stuff, nothing like what you experienced with the perpetrator's spy posing as your friend. An incident like that would probably make me completely paranoid forever. I think you must have great strength to have survived all that. But I admit I'm envious of people who appear to have these wonderful trusting relationships with others. I don't know how that works. I've never experienced it. It looks great from the outside, but what is it like from the inside? Maybe it's not what I think it is. Anyone lurking out there whose had good luck with trust? As to trust on the internet specifically, well you just accept that there's no way to verify anyone's claims here, they can be what they say or something completely different from that, playing some weird game. So I think you have to protect your privacy and be wary of people who ask questions that seem invasive, then take what people say at face value for as long as its positive. If it gets creepy at all, cut them off. The cult I was in has been known to harass ex members. They probably wouldn't be bothered with me, but just to be sure I don't give out my email address, or send emails, or share details of my life they could use to identify or find me. Maybe that's paranoid, but better than nasty surprises. And yes, I'm in a pretty good place now and grateful to be here. Thanks for asking. Once thought I would never again know joy, but as it turned out I was wrong about that. Have you seen the thread on this site about AA? Differing opinions on whether it should be labelled a cult or not. Some years ago I was involved in a 12-step program offshoot of AA but reached a point where I got bored and stopped going to meetings. I've seen (up close and personal) some of the sociopathic element you referred to, but will leave that subject for future discussion. Looking forward to hearing more from you. | ||
| Anonymous |
olska i posted a long commentary on the aa post myself. i will have 17 years sober - with the help of aa. but - at the same time, have come to recognize it as cultish (not as 'bad' as a 'live in' experience, but still with some heavy 'negative' effects) and very 'unsafe' (the sociopathic element) in many ways. it is disheartening. i was once a avid supporter of aa in all of its 'ideas.' now i really do 'take what i need and leave the rest.' and i leave a lot of it. i really don't let anyone close to me at all. i know i shut out the good with the bad. but i have come to realize that i just can't tell the difference - and really, just don't have the willingness or energy to 'dance' through 'stuff' anymore. the latest - just like two months ago - a 'friend' of ours from aa (a 'friend' for like 10 years now)started calling the house & leaving obscene messages. we tracked it down. got the police involved. the whole scenerio..... who would have ever believed it was him????????????????? but yup. he was one of my husband's sponsees - always appropriate here, always polite, very 'giving' in many ways, etc. - etc. my husband and i both 'liked' the guy and did a lot for him ----- and now this. ah well. live and learn. this one really 'hurt' my husband too - and though that is sad, it is good in ways. he now understands, a little better, how this sort of betrayal, violation, deception feels. and how hard it is to trust again after this type of experience ------------- it is not the 'obvious' 'bad guys' that worry me as much as the ones who pretend to be well-meaning and/or kind, while at the same time harboring dark motives or some sick pathology. trust. i really think the key is having a deep trust in ourselves and in our own ability to handle what comes up, set boundries, defend ourselves, stay safe, make wise choices, bounce back when hurt, etc. etc. i don't have that self-trust right now. (thus my 'hiding' stance) but i have had it at times and i think i can get it back - with time. i heard a guy say that one has to be willing to get 'bruised' in the game of life. for dropping out of the 'game' due to fear and/or hurt - means not really living. that makes a lot of sense. but for people who have been seriously traumatized and have ptsd symptoms - it is easier said than done. plus - i think in general - women in this world have a lot more 'legitimate' worries and fears. (just watch the news and/or read the stats ---) if i was 6 ft 2 and 280 lbs of muscle - i think i'd feel a little safer in the world at large. i'm glad you are doing well. i will get to that point again; part of me knows i will. for if nothing else, i am stubborn; so far too stubborn to completely and totally give up. gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
]Anyone lurking out there whose had good luck with trust? Yes, my wife of 15 years. I trust her completely. Plus my parents. And I trust most of my brothers and sisters in laws. ]As to trust on the internet specifically, well you just accept that there's no way to verify anyone's claims here, they can be what they say or something completely different from that, playing some weird game. So I think you have to protect your privacy and be wary of people who ask questions that seem invasive, then take what people say at face value for as long as its positive. If it gets creepy at all, cut them off. You have no way of knowing who anybody really is on the web. Make sure you give nothing away of your real name or email addresses. If anybody you converse with seems “off”, don’t respond to them. The ONLY way to deal with a troll is to ignore them. Just keep in mind that the troll and anyone else can read your postings. ]i heard a guy say that one has to be willing to get 'bruised' in the game of life. for dropping out of the 'game' due to fear and/or hurt - means not really living….for if nothing else, i am stubborn; so far too stubborn to completely and totally give up. I was emailed a relevant quote that was written by Confucius: “Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.” | ||
| olska |
Gizmo, you said: but i have come to realize that i just can't tell the difference That's my problem with trust also. I really have difficulty with the difference between people who are trustworthy and those who are not. Makes me extra wary, perhaps, but for me that's better than being naive as I once was. AS to the dropping out of the game of life due to fear and/or hurt, yes that's a point. But also I think it's important to rest and heal when we've been injured, just as would an injured athlete. If you dropped out forever, that would be sad. But a period of rest is probably a good idea, and from what you say, I think you'll know when you've had enough rest. Trust yourself. I will tell you a related story that illustrates that point if you want to hear it, but it's kind of long and tonight I'm too tired. Yaakov, It's interesting to me that you wrote of the trust you have for your parents. I grew up with mother and stepfather; stepfather now deceased; neither was trustworthy. Both betrayed me in ways that I know, as an adult, are definitely not acceptable. Last visit with my mother (lasted several days as she lives in another state) I resolved not to get caught up in crazy family scripts but rather to let it all flow through/past and maintain my center. With this resolve I was able to get a detached look at how my mother "pushes my buttons" and has been doing so since I was a small child -- pushing and pushing until I reacted. I concluded that this is a form of torture that is difficult to identify because there are no physical signs and so easy for the torturer to say, "what? I did nothing." Now I think that this is child abuse (mental/emotional) and torture, and is probably the source of my inabilty to distinguish between those who are trustworthy and those not. Thanks for the insight! and, Yaakov, do you have any more to add on the subject? You sound like someone who is wise and kind and I'd really appreciate your views. olska | ||
| Anonymous |
olska of all of the abuse in my childhood, i have come to see the mental, emotional, psychological, and spiritual abuse as having the longest lasting negative effects. my husband (who has a background of abuse also) still had 'protective' parents to a degree (mine were not at all). he grew up in the city & has told me how his parents would point out suspected pedophiles / bad people and tell him to stay away from them & to tell them (his parents) if they ever tried to talk to him. plus, if someone outside of the home did something unjust to one of their children - mom and/or dad would track this person down, and there would be hell to pay. now - me? most of the pedophiles would have been my relatives &/or babysitters (small town, inbred, rural commumity). and the bad guys in town - ta da - the same. i specifically learned to love the bad guys. cause this is all that i had in my life (from parents on out -------). i was taught that no one 'outside' of this 'system' could ever love, accept, or repect me. i was 'born bad.' - which my family flipped to good. 'we' were 'cursed.' it was just the way it was. now - i have done a lot of backing up down that one way street to hell. but still haven't found another road - safe - to pull myself into. what we learn as children is deep and pervasive. just like our abcs (whatever language we learn them in) - i think everything else stays with us also. they say it is easy for kids to learn second or third languages. it is a difficult task for adults. and 'immersion' (something that terrifies me) is what is recommended. does that make sense? the language stuff is meant as anology. it is no big mystery - with abusive family histories - that we have trouble knowing who, when, or where to place our trust. it still and always sucks though. my best to you gizmo | ||
| olska |
Ha! I agree "it still and always sucks though." And if we had a ready solution, obviously we wouldn't be here and neither would anyone we could share it with!  Understand what you mean about "immersion." The problem is, if you can't identify who is trustworthy and tend to love the "bad guys" (as do I also), then it's kind of a Catch-22 because immersing yourself in interaction with untrustworthy people only repeats the problem, over and over (don't we know!) Which leads to withdrawing from social interaction, to greater or lesser degree -- sometimes carrying on but keeping almost all relationships "safely" light and superficial, sometimes withdrawing totally. Now here's another thought to ponder: Groups like AA attract and are composed of people with generally the same problem, similar experiences. The good thing about such groups is that you get to share your experience without feeling like a complete alien, you find out you're not alone, you're not the only one. That can be a tremendous help and relief. But what's missing is that there are no "normal" people, people who DO know how to trust and other things about building a life and relationships, sharing how THAT is and offering guides to help find a new and better road once you've backed up that one way street, as you described it (and I very much liked your analogy). Perhaps some people stumble around and find these anyhow, but many don't, and I'm wondering if that might be what contributes to some of the AA thinking to which you (and definitely others) object. It stops at a point and then says that's as far as you can go. Your thoughts? anyone else? My best to you as well. olska | ||
| Anonymous |
olska that is a very good point about aa. when trust comes up as a topic - and people are sharing from their heart (versus talking the talk) - it becomes real obvious that none of us (or very few) have a clue. the cynicism pours out. a litany of hurts (in and out of program). etc. but there are few 'answers.' the best i've come up with (and some others) - is the building of self-trust. but that only carries one so far also. for we still have to 'try' with others (or live in a cave). weird though - when you think of how newcomers are encouraged (by these very same people - above) ' to ' trust. the blind leading the blind - for sure. with a feeling of identification to bond us in our blindness. interesting. i never really thought of it that way. but it does ring true. lioncub | ||
| Anonymous |
oopsie - the above was from me - gizmo - lioncub is the password i use on a different site. sorry. smiles your way ------------------------ | ||
| Yaakov |
]It's interesting to me that you wrote of the trust you have for your parents. I grew up with mother and stepfather; stepfather now deceased; neither was trustworthy. Both betrayed me in ways that I know, as an adult, are definitely not acceptable. I am sorry for your pain. My family life was sorta close to Ward and June Cleaver (minus the pearls). ]Last visit with my mother (lasted several days as she lives in another state) I resolved not to get caught up in crazy family scripts but rather to let it all flow through/past and maintain my center. With this resolve I was able to get a detached look at how my mother "pushes my buttons" and has been doing so since I was a small child -- pushing and pushing until I reacted. I concluded that this is a form of torture that is difficult to identify because there are no physical signs and so easy for the torturer to say, "what? I did nothing." Now I think that this is child abuse (mental/emotional) and torture, and is probably the source of my inabilty to distinguish between those who are trustworthy and those not. Thanks for the insight! and, Yaakov, do you have any more to add on the subject? You sound like someone who is wise and kind and I'd really appreciate your views. Thank you very much. I try very hard to follow the rules of Lashon Hora (speak no harm). Obviously, I don’t know your full facts. However, I read your story above and another possible interpretation, instead of torture came to me. Perhaps, it is just a familial pattern. People can behave one way with friends, but fall into a different mold when they are with family. There once was a Saturday Night Live episode in which the kids (in their 20’s) were having Thanksgiving dinner sitting in the basement at the “kids” table. A man would talk about graduating Harvard and then suddenly lapse into pulling his cousins’ pigtails and shoving peas up his nose. Perhaps, your mother is in a pattern when talking to you. You would typically fall into the pattern yourself and respond. Now, you have matured your way out of the pattern, but your mother is still inside it. Maybe, you just need to have a calm, rational talk with your mother (over the phone, perhaps?). State how you want your adult relationship to be and the behaviors that you want to avoid. Avoid saying the word “you”, as in “you always do that” or “you always do this”. That causes people to raise their defensive shields. Instead using the word “I”, as in “I feel that…” or “I think that…”. There is no rational way to argue that a person isn’t having their own feelings. I sincerely hope this strategy works or is applicable. That is much better than having a crazy, torturer for a mother! | ||
| Yaakov |
]Now here's another thought to ponder: Groups like AA are composed of people with generally the same problem, similar experiences. The good thing about such groups is that you get to share your experience without feeling like a complete alien, you find out you're not alone, you're not the only one. That can be a tremendous help and relief. But what's missing is that there are no "normal" people, people who DO know how to trust and other things about building a life and relationships, sharing how THAT is and offering guides to help find a new and better road. Perhaps some people stumble around and find these anyhow, but many don't, and I'm wondering if that might be what contributes to some of the AA thinking to which you (and definitely others) object. It stops at a point and then says that's as far as you can go. Your thoughts? anyone else? Oooh, I like that. Excellent thinking! So, AA can be a help to get out of the gutter into the street, BUT not a help to leaving the street and getting to the rooftops. Perhaps AA can be PART of your life, but should not be your ENTIRE life. Where do you find a tree? In a forest. Regarding relationships, where could you find someone to build a better relationship with? In a place, where these people would likely be! I would think that each person would have to determine what they want in a relationship and then go to the place where they could expect to find such people. My own life bears this out. I wanted to marry someone Jewish. So, I went to Jewish parties and singles events. Now, I am happily married for almost 15 years to a wonderful Jewish woman. Alternatively, a person could think of what they DON’T want in a relationship and AVOID going to those places. But, I think the positive approach is better. | ||
| olska |
gizmo, What you said about self trust -- I agree that's the foundation that must be built first. I've come a long way toward that in the last several years, but still get blindsided now and then, still have a way to go. Yaakov, My family was definitely NOT the Cleavers! You're right about the family patterns. I can't imagine my mother participating in such a conversation. We can have a reasonable and pleasant telephone conversation maybe four times a year, but if I call her any more often than that she's irritated. So I call and/or send cards or gifts on the important days, and otherwise stay away. I'm convinced she prefers it that way. I like your analogy of the trees in the forest and will ponder that. Sometimes being around people who seem to "have it all" stirs up a terrible, terrible longing along with a dose of envy and a feeling of unworthiness that hurts very bad, sends me running back to the "famliar" screwed-up people who do accept me as I am, twisted history and all. Perhaps this virtual world (which is a new milieu for me) is the "baby step" I need to get past that. Thanks very much for your thoughtful input. Good wishes for both of you! olska | ||
| Anonymous |
yaakov i am wondering what brings you to this site ? have you had a cultic experience and worked it through to the other side ? just wondering - for it seems like you have it together - but then, why would you be here? no offense meant. just curious - and feeling a little insecure with you. gizmo | ||
| Anonymous |
olska i just picked up the book 'trauma and recovery' (by judith herman) to read it 'again.' this is an excellent book for anyone who has been victimized repeatedly in a context of 'captivity' (which includes violent/isolated/abusive family settings). it helps me a great deal to realize that the problems and 'symptoms' that i struggle with make sense ! i am not crazy or bad or 'enjoying' victim status. i cannot just think or act myself well. although good techniques, surviving and moving on to 'thriving' --- is much more complex than all of that. my history is extreme. but now that this latest depression is lifting - i can also see how lucky and fortunate i am - just to be alive (for starters). i would recommend herman's book to anyone that is searching for answers to trust issues, isolation issues, etc. personal self-esteem is a foundation i need to have for any further growth. and sometimes i just need to know ' i am okay. ' period. there are reasons for the problems that i have. i am seeking help for these problems. and - all told, though i still struggle - i have made a tremendous amount of progress also. sending smiles your way gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
Gizmo ]…- and feeling a little insecure with you. Really?? I make you insecure? I’ve reviewed the posts and I’m totally clueless why that is so. Please explain your feelings to me. ]what brings you to this site? To be honest, I first found this site when I was searching for a new multi-religious message board. I read some of the posts and became very interested. I wanted to learn something by reading people’s experiences. I became fascinated about these cults and how easy it seems to be to get hooked with them. Personally, I have never joined a cult or had an experience with them. However, I have become more knowledgeable and passed this information on to my college-age nephews. I lurk (read, but don’t post) most of the threads here. I typically post for 3 reasons, 1) someone says something wrong about Judaism and I step forward to correct the incorrect statement, 2) someone asks for opinions and I think that I can contribute something to the topic or 3) someone makes a statement which is totally confusing to me and I have a strong question for. | ||
| Yaakov |
Olska ]Sometimes being around people who seem to "have it all" stirs up a terrible, terrible longing along with a dose of envy and a feeling of unworthiness that hurts very bad, Hah! Not even Beaver had it all. If you think, “that person must have it all”, then that is truly a fantasy-land scenario. EVERYONE has problems. For instance, I am being laid off this week and have no replacement job at the moment. My wife has patience but is expecting results within a few weeks. So, the clock is ticking for me. Try to remember that everyone puts on their pants one leg at a time. The Talmud says that the truly rich person is the person that is satisfied with what they have. ]sends me running back to the "famliar" screwed-up people who do accept me as I am, twisted history and all. Please remember that everyone has problems. A true friend would not reject you because their parents are better than your parents. Stay at the place where you are safe rather than running back to a twisted environment. You owe that to yourself at the least. Remember that a smoker that is trying to quit can’t hang around with friends that continue to smoke. Find new friends! | ||
| Anonymous |
yaakov thanks for the response. i think maybe it was so many 'postitive thinking' responses that had me a bit wary. but then, if you haven't been, yourself, a victim of serious trauma, you would not know some of the 'quicksand - like' effects that some of us who have been contend with. no one does escape hard times. this is true. but there is a difference between life-threatening trauma and its lingering effects and the stuff of life. that is why ptsd is listed in the diagnostic manual of mental disorders. ptsd is, in a sense a handycap, a very real psychological issue that hinders personal coping, growth, and progress. if you are interested in trauma and its effects (very much associated with cult abuse recovery), a great book is 'trauma and recovery' by judith herman. i am glad you are interested, on an intellectual level, and your posts are helpful. i guess i'm just saying that 'change' is not that easy for many of us. if it were there would be no need for boards like this, or for therapy of any sort. we could just 'will' it all away. that said, good luck with your job search. life transitions of that sort are not easy, and we live in difficult times. thanks again. i hope you can take this in the gentle and sincere spirit in which it is intended. gizmo | ||
| olska |
gizmo, Thanks for the tip on the book -- sounds like a good one. I'm happy to see that you are coming out of the darkness -- i can sense it in the rythymn of your writing. Best to you. olska | ||
| olska |
Yaakov, The Talmud says that the truly rich person is the person that is satisfied with what they have. Yes, and although I am not Jewish and have not read the Talmud, I agree with that. I do know that no one REALLY has it "all" and that everyone has their problems. But I do notice, for example, that most of the people I've heard say "money isn't important" are people with more than they need; people who can't pay their rent or buy food for their children don't say that. Stay at the place where you are safe rather than running back to a twisted environment. "The place where I am safe" is a solitary place, and my current lessons in personal growth have to do with accepting lonliness as a fact of life and being able to be comfortable with it. Thanks for being here. Best of luck on your search for new employment. | ||
| Anonymous |
olska in the book i am reading it says there are three stages to healing: establishing safety, remembrance and mourning, and reconnection. i have moved through all of these - but since this last job experience - have moved 'big time' back into safety mode. that 'solitary' place that you describe. i don't know why - after all of the progress i had made - i am back in this place. but i so identify with you. and feel sad for you also. this is not an easy place to be. even when 'necessary' - for whatever reason. this is very 'regressive' for me. i feel like a child who got very, very hurt once again - and has run into her room to hide under the bed. okay, okay - that happens. but now i can't come out! what is that about? i know there are good people out there. i've met many good people. i generally 'like' and enjoy people. but here i sit. i've dealt with my traumas as best i can (what i remember). so really, my 'need' now is to reconnect. this helps. it might seem a small step to others. but it sure helps me. the old 'twisted environments' can call out to us. i understand that. i see it as being in a 'void' between 'cultures.' i no longer fit in my family system (and don't want to) - but i still grieve it. i can't seem to find a place and way to fit in traditional society in a functional manner - (do i want to?) - and i grieve that also. so here i sit. thinking about ways to put more connection and activity into my life - perhaps by joining a gym, taking a college class, etc. baby steps again. do you have hopes of doing this also? do you have any dreams tucked away that you can pursue in small steps? i'm feeling lost today - and just wanted to touch base - positive thoughts your way gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
gizmo ]if you haven't been, yourself, a victim of serious trauma, you would not know some of the 'quicksand - like' effects that some of us who have been contend with. You are right. I don’t know how to get a person out of the gutter to the street. However, I may be able to help you leave the street and find the stairs upward. ]i am glad you are interested, on an intellectual level, and your posts are helpful. Thank you. ]i guess i'm just saying that 'change' is not that easy for many of us. if it were there would be no need for boards like this, or for therapy of any sort. we could just 'will' it all away. Yes. I read about women returning to their abusive situations, or people picking up their unhealthy habits again, despite having knowledge of alternatives or how their habits harmed them. So, I know that “fixing” people is not as easy as just saying “Do it!”. ]thanks again. i hope you can take this in the gentle and sincere spirit in which it is intended. gizmo Your welcome. I’m glad that you found my contributions helpful. You have taught me yourself, and for that, I am grateful. | ||
| Yaakov |
olska ]"The place where I am safe" is a solitary place, and my current lessons in personal growth have to do with accepting lonliness as a fact of life and being able to be comfortable with it. I am not in your shoes and have no idea of your situation. This statement is hard for me to understand. Judaism just doesn’t accept that a “wrong” has to be accepted and that it will be alright in the next world. If we see a wrong, we try to make a change in this world. Our Energy is focused in this world. Heaven is inevitable. I am unable to accept the notion of just accepting a problem and making no attempt to remedy it. For example, peruse your local newspaper for any organizations that you could be interested in, see if a religious center has any social clubs, does your chamber of commerce have any speakers or seminars, etc. There must be some local group in which you share an interest. Possibly volunteer for something, anything…to make new contacts with new people. The hardest step will be for you to give up your solitary-iness and get that first foot out of your door. Say Hi and ask people their names, how long they’ve been coming. Eventually, they might even ask questions of you. Good Luck! Remember that while Babe Ruth had the record for the most home runs, he also had the record for the most strike outs! | ||
| Yaakov |
As I was reading the Israeli newspapers, I came across this article that seemed relevant to this topic: Among the findings of a social survey made in Israel in 2002 were that the survey revealed that 1 percent of adult Israelis do not have family, and that 0.5 percent do not meet family members or speak to them on the telephone. Among those who maintain family ties, 94 percent are satisfied with them. Of the adult population, 14 percent reported having no friends. Among those who reported having friends (86 percent), almost everyone expressed satisfaction with the relationship. However, 32 percent of interviewees reported feeling lonely often or sometimes. Women feel lonely more often than men, 38 percent against 26 percent, seniors more than younger people, and immigrants more than native-born Israelis. Thirteen percent of those interviewed said they had nowhere to turn in time of crisis. | ||
| olska |
gizmo, You haven't said how long ago the thing with the job happened. I think healing takes as long as it takes, so don't despair. My last BIG bout with this stuff was about 10 years ago, over a relationship with a man, which failed. This was not a new scenario for me as I'd been through other failed attempts at intimacy, but had always bounced back fairly quickly. The last one, at age 48/49, nearly killed me. I thought I'd never feel joy again, never stop crying. I cried daily for about six months -- just couldn't stop, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. Lost about 20 pounds on what I later called the "grief diet": 20 pounds of tears. Of course all the feelings that came up were about a lot more than just that one relationship -- they went waaaay back, to unresolved childhood issues and events I'd forgotten or blocked out. It was a long, soul-searching, life-examining process through which, by the end, I had many life-changing realizations. It was a dividing point of "before" and "after" for my personal history so far. Before, I thought of myself as an atheist; after, i am no longer an atheist, but my concept of "god" is nothing at all like what I was raised with (Baptist) and I follow no "religion." I won't elaborate on the spiritual unless you really want to know because, for one thing it's hard to describe, for another I don't proselytize. 12-step "god" idea was the beginning. Slowly came to a whole new way of thinking and looking at life. Still getting used to it and it's still evolving. As to the "solitary life," I find the lonliness to be a small price to pay for the peace of mind. My natural tendency was to sieze on anyone who was ever nice to me (in any social context) as my new best friend (or boyfriend). This of course makes people want to run, and set me up for yet another fall. I am finally "getting it" that lonliness is just a fact of life, sometimes painful, as is hunger for food. Now I seek to be comfortable with lonliness rather than feed my excessive (I believe) emotional hunger or neediness. I suspect that "normal" people do this without thinking about it because they got enough REAL love (not sick, twisted forms of "love") when they were developing children. I often see people in business context, which is comfortably superficial. Even there, for awhile, I was inclined to seize on people who were nice and friendly. Many people do not understand grief, at all. They believe that "comforting" the person grieving means getting them to stop grieving. It's been my experience and observation that grief is a process that can be very deep and sometimes takes a long time, and that if you interrupt that process before it is finished, it will just come up again. Sometimes even when you think you are finished, it still comes up again later. And who is to say what's "worth" grieving, and what not? Too many people have an opinion about that, but only YOU really KNOW that, for yourself. Trust your own sense of it. If you know you need to grieve, then grieve. If it makes your friends and family too uncomfortable (they may think they have to do something drastic to help you), then do it privately and alone. I believe that we each are endowed with amazing powers of healing and resilience, and that when you are truly finished grieving, and/or healing, you will reach out again. Meanwhile, there are certain things in life you just have to do, commitments you have to keep -- like the laundry, the job, the whatever it is in your situation -- whether you feel like it or not. As I see it, dropping all your responsibilities on others so you can go off and feel sorry for yourself is the true pity party. Bearing the responsibilities as best you can (probably not perfectly, but that's ok) while still allowing yourself to grieve and/or heal real wounds is a different thing. Just my two cents, for what its worth. Posting on forums like this, its hard to know what will be helpful or not. Just don't give up on yourself! and Yaakov, Your input is much appreciated. The study done in Israel is very interesting. Someday I may be ready for social situations like the ones you suggested. Maybe an adult education course or two this fall. By the way I do have a grown son with whom I have a loving relationship. Don't see him very often because he's very busy being a really really GOOD man (born that way, definitely a gift from God) and looking after his own family. It's tempting to do so, but I'm making a real effort not to burden him and his wife with a whining and needy mother/mother-in-law. best to both of you olska | ||
| Anonymous |
Yaakov wow. i bet the stats are different here in the u.s.; though the lonliness stats may be similar. we are such a mobile society that many of us don't even really know our neighbors (and sometimes are afraid to). families often break apart, move away, etc. and crime rates are fairly high (women are especially at risk for unprovoked victimization (s). i know very little about israel. or judaism. it sounds as if you are very happy there, and trusting/confident in your belief system. i guess we all 'wish' for that. i read a line in a book recently about atheists and believers that seemed to say it all: "that the atheists hope they get proved wrong just as strongly as the believers hope they get proved right." that made a lot of sense to me. and somehow brings non-believers and believers 'more together' somehow - at least on a focal point of hope. take care gizmo | ||
| Anonymous |
olska i've been out of work about 6 months. after the major job loss (the one that hurt so bad) - i did try another. i had absolutely no confidence, started having panic attacks and radical mood swings, and could not stay (it was a really good opportunity too). i was even more devestated after this 'failure.' i felt i had really let myself and some people who were 'rooting for me' down. part of what happened during this whole period also was some 'flooding in of stuff' still unresolved from my childhood. so i identify with that. with all of it - i was totally overwhelmed for a while - on the verge of a serious breakdown. so i have hidden myself away, and i have grieved, and i know i have more grieving to do. i think it may go on, to some degree, forever. but i also have hope. i have two ideas in regard to going into business for myself, both of which i could start slowly - and maybe build into something really 'fun' and profitable. i think for me, careerwise, self-employment may be my best answer at this time. at least then if i feel exploited i have no one to blame but myself. i am a great worker. i can say that. and i think i can make a good go of it if i can take it slowly to start - build my expertise and confidence. i have never been one to make 'friends' really. i was very isolated as a child, and very poor/neglected (and teased a lot)and i never learned how to be comfortable with others. i have gotten into intense one-on-one relationships with men, and have kind of 'hid in their shadow.' most were 'me little girl' and them 'hero' type of relationships. and most of the 'heros' turned out to be abusers ......... this is somewhat true now - even in my marriage. sad, but true. and something else that weighs heavy on my heart. my husband has never laid a hurtful hand on me. but emotionally, verbally, and through 'excessive control' and rages - he can really tear me down. this has gotten much worse since i have been out of work. spiritually, i consider myself agnostic. i guess that feels like the 'safest' choice for me. it still allows for hope - for the hope that their is a divine purpose for all of us, that there is a power of love and good in the world that far exceeds all of the hurt and badness. i have lived in 'dark places.' so i know a lot about darkness. frankly, i have never learned much else, and with my fear of dogma, organized groups, etc --- i am not likely to (experientially). i read a lot though. i love to read philosophy and self-help books in particular. i believe very strongly that there is a spirit of goodness within me (which i associate with the little girl i once was) that is strong and loving and will persevere. i am glad to hear you have a son that you are somewhat close to. i have a son and a daughter who are awesome. and three grandchildren that i adore. my other son and his children are a heartache right now (he is an active alcoholic and abuser & i get to see his children rarely). but i have hope that he will 'make it' too. he recently got a dwai and a dwi (about a month later) - so i am hoping he gets mandated into treatment/therapy. i hope you don't give up on yourself either! i hope you are as kind to yourself as you have been in your interactions with me. just in your being here for me when i needed you -you have brought light into the world. and i thank you gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
Gizmo ]i have two ideas in regard to going into business for myself, both of which i could start slowly - and maybe build into something really 'fun' and profitable. i think for me, careerwise, self-employment may be my best answer at this time. i am a great worker. Business is my area of expertise plus I had my own business at one time. Be sure to select a product/service which you know about. A good place to get started is by reading a book about “Business Plans”. While you probably don’t need to write a business plan, the exercises in the book should be extremely helpful for you to consider aspects of your business that you have probably never considered. Don’t overlook this planning aspect in the rush to start your business. Also, most businesses in the US fail because they are under-capitalized. Work out what your expenses will be for three months (and don’t be stingy). You should have resources in-place to cover that amount before opening. Typically, expenses will be incurred before any revenue is collected. Other points: as a sole proprietor, you will have multiple bosses instead of just one as an employee. Each customer is a boss. It is important to keep that in your mind. Lastly, know that whatever your business is, you will have competitors, whether the same product/service or alternative product/service. You have to ask yourself “Why would a customer select my product (or pay for my service), instead of a competitor?” Gizmo, this is an extremely abbreviated synopsis. Go forth and plan! (I used to charge $45/hour for this. You can have it for free!) ]i have gotten into intense one-on-one relationships with men, and have kind of 'hid in their shadow.' most were 'me little girl' and them 'hero' type of relationships. and most of the 'heros' turned out to be abusers ......... this is somewhat true now - even in my marriage. sad, but true. and something else that weighs heavy on my heart. my husband has never laid a hurtful hand on me. but emotionally, verbally, and through 'excessive control' and rages - he can really tear me down. this has gotten much worse since i have been out of work. Ouch! When I was in business on my own, my most solid backing came from my wife. If your husband is just going to rag on you, when you try to make your business work, then you will probably find it that much harder. I am sorry, Gizmo. It sounds like you will have to make it work DESPITE your husband. ]i believe very strongly that there is a spirit of goodness within me that is strong and loving and will persevere. Yes! In Judaism, that is called the Divine Spark. It is the part of every one of us that is made in God’s image. ]i have a son and a daughter who are awesome. and three grandchildren that i adore. You are lucky. Hey, maybe you have 5 pillars of support for “Grandma’s business”. Wait, it is 6! Count me in. I will help you with any future business advice that you post. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yaakov that is soooo kind of you ! my first idea is a children's clown/party business. sounds silly right? but i recently attended a grandchild's party where they had a clown ($150 for an hour) --- and really, she was terrible. that is where i got the idea. not a huge investment needed. i'm great with children. i have dressed up as a clown before (and loved it). and i could start off small (getting a professional clown outfit and learning the tricks of the trade) - and build over time. my other idea is women's empowerment workshops. now - you might laugh at this one also. but please bear with me. my education is in psychology and in women's studies. my passion is empowerment. and what i would be doing, rather than 'counseling' - would be facilitating groups where women could come together and help each other grow. now - my last professional position was as an educator/group facilitator - and i loved it (until i burned out). i would be doing the same again - only as an 'independent.' it could work. i would be the main tool (i am very good at this stuff). so the investment would mainly be in finding an affordable/comfortable place to have the groups, and in accessing loads of educational materials along the lines of group topics. both are things that i could start small with and build my competency over time. the biggest 'cost' - once rolling - would probably be advertising expenses. for now, i am entertaining both ideas. i have made some flyers. i am brainstorming options and ideas and looking into more business information. i hope to take a couple of courses this winter about starting one's own business (i know there is a tremendous amount to learn). and get underway seriously next spring. i do not have my husband's support, which is very disheartening. i have told him my ideas - and he just sluffs them off. i have shown him my flyers (which others have told me are awesome) and he doesn't even read them, really give them any thought at all. sad. but then, he has a lot on his plate right now - stress wise. if i do pull any of this off - i will have to be 'my own hero.' it is time anyway. i just have to go slow & figure out HOW. i love that about the 'Divine Spark' - it somehow captures what i feel, what keeps me going even in the most desperate of times. i was real low when i started this whole post. in a scary emotional place. but i am building up momentum again. i am a lot more hopeful and inspired. thanks for everything gizmo | ||
| Anonymous |
hi i just wanted to come back and say that i am not being 'radical' with any of this. i am 'exploring' now - and having some fun pricing things, looking at potentialities, etc. by shooting for a spring start date (whatever business) - i am allowing myself the fall and winter to take a couple of business courses, to do some volunteer 'clowning' (perhaps at the children's ward in the hospital) to try it out. and to have more time to focus on my therapy and needs of the moment. there isn't a lot of competition out in the clown/children's party market. but i would have to be GOOD & have some 'specialties.' the facilated support group would 'maybe' fill a void between the self-help groups/not for profit services and professional (and often very expensive/insurance dependent) theraputic field. there is a very large void there and a very large need. but would women come ------------? again - i'm in the 'thinking and evaluating' stages. money is of course a major issue (as it always is - lol). i could try for some grants. but i don't know if i want to go that route. i've pretty much had it with the non-profit route (which seems like a scam anyhow to me). i want to profit ! i want to work a twenty hour week and make more than i did at my last forty hour a week gig. i believe this is possible. i just have to engage this tired old brain and strategize well. if i were only to stay in the now - with no hopes, plans, or dreams - then, i would be truly destitute. i have to believe there is another chapter to be written in this life story. and a good one. this one about choice. gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
]my first idea is a children's clown/party business. i recently attended a grandchild's party where they had a clown. that is where i got the idea. i'm great with children. i have dressed up as a clown before. and i could start off small and build over time. ]my other idea is women's empowerment workshops. my education is in psychology and in women's studies. my passion is empowerment. and what i would be doing, rather than 'counseling' - would be facilitating groups where women could come together and help each other grow. my last professional position was as an educator/group facilitator - and i loved it. Gizmo, both ideas are good. Since I have seen most business go under through lack of planning, I did a google search for you on “Business Plan”. Most of the hits were people trying to sell software. However, this site is from the Small Business Administration www.sba.gov/starting_business/startup/basics.html It has free information. I did a cursory review and it looks good. I would HIGHLY suggest that you take at least a day and review this site and the outline of the business plan. Remember, I am not saying that you need to write one, but I am saying you at least need to verbally answer the questions to yourself. For example, I am willing to bet that you have not considered liability insurance (In this country, anyone can be sued for anything, you need to have some sort of coverage.) ]i would be the main tool. so the investment would mainly be in finding a comfortable place to have the groups, and in accessing loads of educational materials along the lines of group topics. Both ideas are personal services. Though, with the second idea, you have to potential to be able to sell books or other materials in addition to the seminars. (Don’t forget sales taxes, all states have differing tax laws. These seminars have the potential to be taxable, despite being a service). Please don’t tell me your state, remember that this is the internet. ]for now, i am entertaining both ideas. i have made some flyers. i am brainstorming options and ideas and looking into more business information. Hold up on the flyers. You need to identify your customers and their needs first. ]i hope to take a couple of courses this winter about starting one's own business (i know there is a tremendous amount to learn). Excellent idea. You can never have too much knowledge. You are right about the learning, after a masters degree and 15 years experience, I am still learning. ]i do not have my husband's support, which is very disheartening. That is awful. You must proceed without him. I don’t know what to offer you regarding him. Maybe once he sees the business taking off in 6 months, the income will change his mind. If you can make yourself a business success, then it should enable you to stop feeling like a little girl and come out from his shadow. I don’t know. Try approaching your son and his family when your plans start to gel (I’m thinking they might pooh-pooh you at first. If you demonstrate knowledge and planning, that might show them that you are serious). ]sad. but then, he has a lot on his plate right now - stress wise. Don’t make excuses for him. Every person on the planet has stress. It is called life. ]i was real low when i started this whole post. in a scary emotional place. but i am building up momentum again. i am a lot more hopeful and inspired. Attagirl!! You have a lot of hard positive work in front of you. Climb those stairs! ]by shooting for a spring start date (whatever business) - i am allowing myself the fall and winter to take a couple of business courses, to do some volunteer 'clowning' to try it out. and to have more time to focus on my therapy and needs of the moment. Good idea, there is no need to rush. ]there isn't a lot of competition out in the clown/children's party market. but i would have to be GOOD & have some 'specialties.' Sorry to burst your bubble, but you do have LOTS of competition. This service is providing entertainment for children’s birthdays. Your competitors are bowling allies (with party rooms), movie theatres, miniature golf, Chuckie-cheese (pizza and video arcades), animal farms, magicians, jugglers, etc. I have noticed that clowns not only dress silly (e.g. oversized shoes), but they have to be patient, and be able to make balloon animals and do face painting at the least (You got paint in my child’s eye. I am suing you for damages!! Don’t forget the insurance). Also, telling funny jokes or being a story teller helps. ]the facilated support group would 'maybe' fill a void between the self-help groups/not for profit services and professional (and often very expensive/insurance dependent) theraputic field. there is a very large void there and a very large need. but would women come ------------? My first thought was that this business might help you with your own confidence. The main difficulty is finding your customers. And generating repeat business. ]i want to work a twenty hour week and make more than i did at my last forty hour a week gig. I have to burst another bubble. One problem with being your own business is that turning off the business and “heading home” is sometimes difficult, especially if your office is in your home. Business owners tend to work many more hours, than employees. Employees can just leave after their 8 hour days are over. Owners are always working, planning, and generating more business. In my business, which was in my home, I had a separate phone line. Whenever the phone rang in my home office, I would race over and take the call, evenings, weekends, whatever. My hours expanded to about 60 per week. And during my busy season…I was working about 80 hours per week. Also, businesses generate paperwork. You will find yourself spending almost half of your time just doing the paperwork, instead of the “fun” stuff that earns the income. ]i have to believe there is another chapter to be written in this life story. and a good one. I am rooting for you! PLAN, EDUCATE YOURSELF, AND PLAN SOME MORE. | ||
| Yaakov |
I just reviewed my own post. Gizmo, I might sound a little depressing. But, I wanted to be realistic. Creating your own business takes a lot of hard work. However, if successful, the profit potential is unlimited. I am definitely not advising to not do it. I am just trying to share some hard-knocks that I both suffered and learned. Epilogue: I sold my business. My family was complaining that I wasn’t around enough. I was unable to relinquish control and delegate my duties to others. So, I sold everything to one of my competitors. My income was ok, but only about the same as being an employee. So now I am employee with only 40 hour work weeks. Thus, my own business was not a blazing success. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yaakov i'll come back and read this more thouroughly later. i have a grandchild here right now - chomping at the bit to look at costumes (we found some where they have animals dressed up - cute !) i will definitely check out the business plan site (thank you) - and do some serious research / work around all of this. the flyers are just a 'fun' exploit. i know, i know, i know they will be revised a bunch of times before 'flying.' i just do them as a blueprint of sort - to get myself psyched up. paperwork doesn't bother me. i kind of like it (people really think i'm wierd for this). but i do get perfectionistic around it and i can drive myself crazy with compulsive perfectionistic stuff. i have to watch that. when i say a 20 hr. workweek, i really mean 20 hrs. 'outside' of my home. you are probably right otherwise. with 'at home' stuff, knowing me, i'm probably in for a 40-60 hr. workweek. i am okay with that. it is 'outside' stimulus (too much of) that tends to send me into a panic/overdrive. you did not depress me at all ! the stuff about 'competition' was very enlightening. i was only thinking about other 'clowns' as competitors. but you are soooo right. i will come back later and read this over. do more thinking. i am sorry your business did not work out. i know it is really, really tough --- my son has his own business (in a partnership) and i see this there too. lots of money - yes. but a whole lot of responsibility and stress too. he is willing to help me with this also. so i really feel 'blessed' at this point. thanks gizmo | ||
| Anonymous |
Olska i hope we haven't 'lost' you with this business talk. please keep posting here - whatever is on your mind. in the dips and flows of life, i am doing much better. i really want to keep our connection though. i think it was/is positive for both of us. how are you???? smiles your way gizmo | ||
| olska |
gizmo, No you haven't lost me -- I've just been busy, and I'm fine, thank you for asking. The business stuff is interesting. I have my own business -- it's small, just me, less money than I made working for others, but lots more freedom and I like that. In his book "On Becoming a Novelist" writer John Gardner talks about the fact that often the friends and family of people who dream of becoming professional artists and writers (self employed) tend to discourage the dreamer with talk of being "realistic" and getting "a real job." Gardner points out that this is probably motivated by their love and concern for the dreamer, that they fear the dream will fail and do not want the dreamer to be hurt. Same concept can apply to those around someone striking out with their own business. Your ideas sound very promising, and I'm happy to see the enthusiasm you have now. Good that your children support you in your dream. Your husband will probably come around when it begins to take shape Best of luck to you. olska | ||
| Anonymous |
olska i'm glad to hear you are well. and you are probably 'on cue' about the 'dream' stuff. i also write - and have had very limited success at getting published. i have found the publication industry to be very forbidding. and mostly, now, just write for my own pleasure. mostly poetry. but i do have a full size book (autobiographical & societal criticizm) written should i ever decide to 'try' to market it. i have found that i have to hold on to dreams. living in the day (where i am homemaker/caretaker/babysitter for the most part) is not enough. i tend to resent the caretaker role when it is all that 'i am.' a lot depends upon money of course (as far as either business idea). i've picked things with a low investment (as in little to purchase upfront) - but even still, there are a lot of expenses which proceed any 'potential' income. i want to keep it 'individualized' also. no other employees. for i am terrible at delegating. i feel i would be most likely to succeed (arrogant it sounds) as a 'one woman show.' it really isn't arrogant though. it is just about self-knowlege. i am a control freak. i've spent years trying to learn how not to be. now, i've decided to try and make it work FOR me. it is based in fear. and that does not go away. sending smiles your way gizmo | ||
| Anonymous |
yaakov i am just now printing out some stuff from the sba site (including the basic plan) & i'm going to take it all out in the sun to read it over. thanks again hope you have a great day gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
Gizmo It has been a week. How is your education coming? Any questions? BTW, things are looking up for me. I just started a new job yesterday. While it is not ideal, at least some money will come in while I continue my job search. | ||
| Anonymous |
yaakov congratulations on the job. i am really happy for you and admire your approach. i am in a real high anxiety space tonight - it has been a hectic evening. stressful. so while i can't think business too well - i went and copied a couple of '?' areas from the business plan i'm working on. i'll see if they paste here: "What insurance coverage will be needed?" (one did) i think the other was "What kind of business structure would i use?" sorry if i seem jumbled. i am. i'll check in again tomorrow. thanks! :-) gizmo | ||
| Yaakov |
Hi Gizmo Chin up, you sound like you are making good progress. I hope your son is being supportive. ]"What insurance coverage will be needed?" For your clown business, two insurance needs spring right to my mind: disability and liability. Disability to cover the risk that an accident will leave you unable to perform. Disability insurance provides a replacement for you lost income while you are disabled. Liability insurance covers damages incurred to another party while you are performing. For example, a flaming baton catches a house on fire or some child gets too close and injures themselves during your performance. Of course, some people skip insurance to save money. But, you need to think about the risk of loss in your business and whether insurance will be "worth" it. In my business, I had liability insurance only for malpractice. It only covered $100,000 damages. ]"What kind of business structure would i use?" This refers to the legal structure of your business: sole proprietor, corporation, or LLC (limited liability company). These structures determine your taxes and risk of loss. There are also state tax considerations, so you may need to consult with a tax expert from your state. To properly set up a corporation or a LLC needs expert advice. In my experience, do-it-yourselfers, usually do it wrong. Then they contact me after the fact to pull their cookies out of the fire. Keep your heart firmly on your goal. Good Luck! | ||
| Anonymous |
yaakov hi. thank you once again :-). there is a series of workshops starting here soon at a local employment agency on 'writing a business plan' - and i am hoping to go. that should help a lot. i also discussed my business ideas with my therapist who thinks they both sound good. so - i have her support, which helps. my son is supportive, but being in business for himself - is busy, busy, busy. in the meantime, as i slowly put this together (i haven't decided which idea to go with yet, so i am still looking at/evaluating both) --- i have gotten a professional clown outfit (a bday gift from my husband) to play around with/practice with (fun and goofy anyhow & good for the soul and the grandkids :-) and i'm writing a lot too. i write poetry and have one full length book (autobiographical & societal criticizm) completed. i am staying busy. so i'm not delving into the past too much right now. still, it pops up to disrupt things here and there (thus, my occassional high anxiety/depressive states). my husband is being a little more supportive than he was. he did get the clown outfit. and he told me a couple days ago to find a place to get my magic tricks/balloon supplies/etc. from. sooo - moving forward. slowly. it helps me, tremendously, to have something concrete and goal oriented to work on. thanks again for everything. it has been very, very kind of you to spend this time helping me. and i hope that your life brings back your goodness to you tenfold. i do believe things work that way. my best to you. gizmo | ||
| dirt New member Username: dirt Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 144.162.93.125 |
Hi! I am a single male, 43, looking for a female companion between the age of 18 to 50 for a lasting relationship. Singing and playing guitar since age 5, I have traveled all across the U.S. in Country, Rock, and Blues bands, and as a solo act. Your looks and size do not matter, as long as you have love as I do! Please email me at: rondalbranigan@yahoo.com I hope to make it to the gathering in July! Lots of love! Rondal Branigan | ||
| ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 2186 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.121.140.84 |
Uh, not to point out the obvious, but picking up chicks on a thread titled "self hate and alienation" might not be the greatest road to romance. Just a thought. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 182 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
Awesome post IHS, one of the best I've seen... Hope ol' Rondal found what he was looking for - although he doesn't come across as being particularly choosy. |
