| Author | Message | ||
     Rational |
but don't take my word for it. visit the site yourself. is seems that the only way to sell their videos and make money teachng people how to "recover" in a weekend, is to fist create an enemy. for them that enemy in AA. the stories by so-called "ex-AA"members and the following comments are exceedingly revealing. once again, unlike the "Rational recovery" organization, I suggest you see it for yourself. keep a rational mind when you read about their concept of "Rational" www.rational.org | ||
| miss tattoo |
Hmm, I quit drinking using RR. I chatted with this guy while in (detox) b/c AA felt exactly like the cult I had escaped from. I got the book, read it, quit drinking and that was that. They don't intend you to go to meetings for amything past one year or even go to meetings at all. I never went, I read the book once and gave it away to someone whom I thought also was being put off by AA. I haven't even given much thought of it except when I hear someone trying to quit but having probs with the whole "spiritual" thing. I basically say, "I used RR, it's based on rational thinking". Basically they don't really care but want to know what life was like after I quit (7 years ago I think) and basically it's no big deal cuz RR says that the person is more important then the orginization. I got a couple of more books on rational thinking, thet were too dry for me so I donated them to the library. I checked out the website ad basically it sucks, it isn't anything like the book. The problem is the webmaster if you ask me, lol. Interestingly I used the one basic paragraph from that book to help quit smoking. Essentially it said that quitting isn't hard, it's the staying "off whatever". I never read a book, never thought about whats-his-name who wrote all the cognitive behavioral books, just appied the concept. Yea, I can breath. ;) I think any organization who's basic tenet is "You need us to survive or forget, you might as well die." Well, you get what I mean. The only thing I "need" is my road bike and my pooter. :D Cheers | ||
| Otis S. |
I also left the cult of AA and used Rational Recovery to successfully abstain from alcohol. Rational thinking takes one a lot further than superstitious, faith-healing Moonies, IMO. AA is a public health menace in the United States today. It has been elevated to folk status in the past 65 years by an uncritical mainstream media, but I think that's changing, especially after the woes of conservative radio guru Rush Limbaugh and his immersion in a 12-Step program. I would join Rational in encouraging folks to vist: http://www.rationalrecovery.com And while you're at it, you might also take a look at: http://orange-papers.org http://www.morerevealed.com http://www.schaler.net Everyone should indeed make up their own minds! | ||
| Anonymous (69.85.144.226) |
Rational Recovery? Fine. Anything is better than that A.A. cult crap. | ||
| prschuster (prschuster) Junior Member Username: prschuster Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.4.187.251 |
I've read "Rational Recovery", by Jack Trimpey, and I've gone to several of the face-to-face meetings, which have now disbanded. I've also gone to more AA meetings than I can count. I've heard allegations that Trimpey is a huckster, making money off his books, films and appearances. Maybe he is a huckster, and maybe not, but that's all immaterial anyway, because that doesn't make RR a cult. The lack of meetings, and the encouragement to become self-sufficient without associating with other RR people make it impossible for RR to attain cult status. AA, on the other hand, is another story. Anyone who thinks RR is a cult, ought to check some of the threads on AA to see what the real cult is all about. | ||
| msullivan (msullivan) New member Username: msullivan Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.33.62.209 |
I'm not involved with Rational Recovery now, and I've been out of the loop for several years. However, I was involved with Rational Recovery during its early stages, during an explosive growth phase. I like to think I was somewhat instrumental in helping the organization take root: I coordinated a Florida group and was interviewed by the New York Times, which helped spread the word about the organization. Subsequently, groups began springing up all over the US and elsewhere. I can't speak for every RR group everywhere, of course. Being a self-support network with autonomous groups, such an organization might look very different from one meeting to another. However, the fundamentals of RR are decidedly non-cultish. As to "Rational's" comment about RR first "creating an enemy" of AA: It would help to understand some history. When Trimpey wrote "Rational Recovery," the 12-step self-help movement was in full swing. AA and AA-based recovery was considered by the medical professionals, mental health professionals, corrections departments, etc. as THE ONLY way to stop drinking (or drugging, etc) and stay stopped. The 12-Step movement had spread to the point where virtually every human was considered to be somehow "diseased" and in need of a 12-step program. (remember "Codependency?") Consequently, a former drinker who could not accept "the God stuff" in AA was considered as good as dead - he or she was assumed doomed to begin drinking again and die from alcholism. This is the sort of attitude I - and Trimpey, no doubt - encountered when I met with mental health professionals to tell them about our group. Also, in many communities one convicted (or in some cases just charged with) DUI or other alcohol-related offense would be court-ordered into a 12-step program; return of one's drivers license could be withheld until a 12-stepping counselor determined the client had successfully completed a recovery program, which often meant one could not get back behind the wheel until the counselor was convinced the client had developed a belief in God! As a coordinator, I had group participants who found themselves in exactly this situation. Fortunately - in large part because of the success and growing acceptance of RR and other programs using REBT and other cognitive-behavior therapies to help addicts and alcholics recover and move on - these situations are less common today. As to RR being a "money based cult": Cults try to self-perpetuate through aggressive self-promotion and by retaining members through any means they see fit. Rational Recovery, on the other hand, asks that the member recover so he/she can leave the group! This is in marked contrast to AA, where members are routinely told that they are perpetually and forever "in recovery" and therefore must stay perpetually and forever in AA, lest they fall off the wagon and die. It probably sounds like I'm slamming AA. However, the organization has done a lot of good for a lot of people. I did attend AA before I helped start a local RR group, and so far as I could see, the people at the meetings were doing well, and individuals were asked to contribute only what they could, and only enough to cover basic expenses. Similarly, RR groups collected money based on the need to pay for meeting space, and that was it. As to Trimpey using the organization to sell books, etc. - So? You gotta eat. Bear in mind publishers didn't exactly fall all over themselves to print his book at first - for several years, he self-published it, which is a financially risky move. Compare the amount of money Trimpey has made from his book over the course of 20 years or so, and it probably pales next to the amount of money made in the first year "Codependent No More" sold. And Trimpey's book helps people. As to "their concept of 'rational,'" Trimpey based Rational Recovery on Rational-Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), which was developed by Albert Ellis, Ph.D., a pioneer in the field of cognitive behavior therapy, which is now probably the most widely practiced methods employed in psychotherapy. So RR has a solid foundation. REBT also encourages rational thinking, which I think would be anathema to the cult mentality. I hope I've helped clarify this topic. | ||
| prschuster (prschuster) Junior Member Username: prschuster Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.4.177.45 |
Thanks msullivan, for giving a good thorough account of RR. You know more about the history than I do. As of late, Trimpey has distanced himself from cognitive psychology, and has concentrated on ways to recognize your "Addictive Voice", so he no longer advocates REBT. I really like how he emphasizes how you have to make a solid decision (called the "Big Plan"), instead of equivocating. But thanks for helping to talk against his detractors. | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.158.183.240 |
MSullivan: I am afraid you were VERY incorrect when you said: "Fortunately - in large part because of the success and growing acceptance of RR and other programs...these situations (coerced AA/NA participation) are less common today." Approx. TWO MILLION people get indoctrinated into the 12-stepping religion EVER YEAR through in-patient "rehabs" that are little more 12-step brainwashing mills. Over HALF, or ONE MILLION are COERCED into these so-called "treatment centers" by courts, company employee assistance programs and governmental agencies, threatened with either loss of licences, prison or unemployment. This million does NOT include countless others forced to go directly to the "street" form of AA, the meetings. The other MILLION go into the in-patient "treatments" voluntarily, looking for help with addictive behavior. They are wide-open and vulnerable as, for 28 days at $15,000 a pop, AA/NA gets jammed down their throats. It is all VERY thoroughly documented here: http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/r_chap_1.htm I have personal experience in this, just having watched a friend go into one of these "rehabs" voluntarily for dual diagnosis (alcohol and bipolar). Little did either of us know about the true nature of the "treatment" she would receive. Her bipolar was totally ignored, and her spirit was completely savaged by AA confessions, and inventories and the like. She was forced to go to 8 hours or more of AA/NA meetings every day. She came out like a zombie, her language loaded with AA slogans, and went right into the 90/90. In addition, you said: "However, the organization (AA) has done a lot of good for a lot of people." That was a profoundly and tragically incorrect statement as well. A TRUSTEE of AAWS, George Vaillant, did a definitive 8-year study of alcohol abusers. He violated a fundamental rule of scientific inquiry by going into that study WITH THE SPECIFIC INTENT OF PROVING AA'S EFFECTIVENESS. To his own dismay, he was forced to concede that AA was NO BETTER THAN NO TREATMENT AT ALL. Not only that, but he found the DEATH RATE of alcohol abusers who went to AA "appalling" (his word) up to 600% HIGHER than other methods or no treatment at all. In other words, msullivan, AA KILLS, and it was admitted and proven by one of their own. Mr. Vaillant's recommendation? Send them to AA ANYWAY for the "conversion experience". And this sick f*ck is not in prison for that, but is lionized by the $15 BILLION dollar "treatment industry". There has NEVER been one objective study comparing AA to other treatment methods or no treatment at all where AA doesn't come in DEAD LAST (play on words quite intentional). That is all thoroughly documented here: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html and here: http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/r_chap_2.htm Were you aware that there have been 4 major court decisions that ruled AA is a RELIGION, and that people cannot be forced to go to them? These decisions are being totally ignored. I have spent the last 2 months researching the hell out of this. I had a positive opinion of 12-stepping (AA) when I started, but I am sickened and incredulous over what I have learned. I don't know you, but you seem like a highly intelligent and responsible individual who has done a lot of good for a lot of people. But I would ask you to do some research on your own about the genesis of 12-stepping, how their 12-steps is just an expanded list of the "6 principles" of a religious cult in the 1930's called the Oxford Group. Bill Wilson had his "religious awakening", which led directly to the formation of AA, when he was on BELLADONNA, a powerful halucigenic. Sexual predators abound in the rooms, many of them trusted "sponsors" and "elders". Please wander around those two sites I gave you (there are a number of others). There is literally weeks of reading on those two sites, one of which has 4 full-length books. Until you have done so, I would beg you to not make statements like those I quoted from your post. 12-stepping is an absolute travesty that does far more harm than good. If you get a chance, stop in at a Yahoo chat board called 12-step-free, where you'll get an eyeful from escapees from stepping: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/messages I would be happy to correspond with you if you require any additional information. | ||
| msullivan (msullivan) New member Username: msullivan Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.33.62.209 |
geokstr: Thanks for your comments and added information. I don't disagree with any of it, but I'll add some additional thoughts. As I mentioned, I have been out of the loop for a long time; it has been my impression that the situation regarding the 12-step stranglehold over addiction recovery and forced 12-steppism had improved. Apparently, my experience was limited; it did improve in my area, but from what you tell me, that might have been an isolated case. As for my "profoundly and tragically incorrect" comment that AA "has done a lot of good for a lot of people," I probably should have added a qualifier or two. I did not, because I had already rambled on at some length. I haven't been to an AA meeting for a long time. At meetings, I met a variety of people, some of them normal people that I'd already known, and who were decidedly not brainwashed, but who would credit AA with helping them avoid alcohol. At the same time, I felt that many people weren't helped at all, and for some, AA was iatrogenic (the treatment makes the "patient" worse). I personally found the meetings unhelpful, at best. When I got involved with Rational Recovery, I was surprised to learn the degree to which some AA-inclined folks opposed the idea that another program might help some people. Hoping to get the word out about our group, I sent letters and other information to mental health professionals and was invited to meet with groups at counseling centers and clinics, and to speak at a few continuing education programs, etc. I was amazed at the resistance I encountered even from professionals, and learned that many with degrees in counseling got there via their own 12-step experience. I was flabbergasted when one suggested that if I didn't start going to AA, I would inevitably fall off the wagon and ultimately die from alcohol abuse, or when another suggested that if I had managed to remain sober without AA, then perhaps I wasn't a "real" alcoholic in the first place. (I stopped drinking just over 15 years ago, by the way, and have yet to fall off the wagon and die) In the early days of RR, we were constantly accused of "AA-bashing." Although I certainly took my share of lumps from RR-bashing 12-steppers back then, I prefer not to slam any method an individual one might use to help them overcome a serious problem like alcohol or drug dependency. However, I had an uncle who overcame a pretty serious alcohol-abuse problem some 40 years ago after getting religion at a "holy roller" tent revival, and stayed sober by going to a rigidly fundamentalist church every Sunday. I won't tell him his method of sobering up was all wrong, but I sure wouldn't encourage anyone else to go that route. | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.214.37.91 |
Hi M: Boy, you have been out of the loop a long time. You can catch up by starting here (I have several other too): http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html 95% of the "treatment centers" and "rehabs" in this country are hard-core 12 step. Many of the so-called "counselors" at them are hired with the ONLY required background being that have to be a True Believer in steppism. No college at all is OK; no experience necessary either. Steppers believe that the only person who can counsel a drunk is another one. I am not at all surprised at the resistance you got. Are you after reading that last paragraph? There have been a number of books that came out in the last 5 years or so, that found AA to be a cult, with the institutional AA being the worst, and using the indoctrination methods developed by the Chinese Communists in the 1940's. There are four full-length books on the second site I gave you in my first post to you. Again the institutional AA is the worst, using sleep deprivation, isolation from the outside, total immersion in the twelve step doctrine, the trashing of a person's self-esteem and ego so they will accept the dogma more easily. It is hard to believe but it's all documented on those sites I gave you. Lastly, the story of your uncle is inspiring but it's anecdotal and of no use in judging AA's effectiveness. Have you ever heard the saying that whatever you are looking for is in the last place you look for it? Sounds pretty profound but is really only common-sense. If you tried to quit drinking on your own and it worked, you would swear by that method. If it failed and you went to church and it worked, you would think finding Jesus was the only way, like your uncle. And if those didn't work, and you went to AA and it did, of course you would say AA did it. In other words the last place you went was the one that worked. Some 80% of the people who quit do so on their own with no treatment. The others who quit while in the various treatments, including AA, have already made the decision to quit before they went into treatment and since that's where they quit, of course they swear by it. As the owner of the first site I gave you puts it, they finally "got sick and tired of being sick and tired." So, I've bent your ear enough for tonight. PLEASE look at the sites I gave you; they are eye-openers. | ||
| mikemartin715 (mikemartin715) New member Username: mikemartin715 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 69.141.170.118 |
hey geokstr whats up man. i was just researching upon AA when i came across this link. i had no idea i would find you here. your links have been alot of help. thanks alot man | ||
| mikemartin715 (mikemartin715) New member Username: mikemartin715 Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 69.141.170.118 |
btw the last link you posted is no longer working | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Intermediate Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.158.185.136 |
Hi Mike: You mean the Orange Papers one? If so, I got a "bandwidth exceeded" message. That's not the same as dead is it? How's the research going? | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Intermediate Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.158.185.136 |
BTW, I'm here because this is pretty much pro-steppism country. and I hate to see them not be countered. But then I got sidetracked on religious issues, for much the same reason. :-) | ||
| mikemartin715 (mikemartin715) New member Username: mikemartin715 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.38.15.176 |
yeah i guess your right its not dead...the bandwith has just got exceeded. and yes the research is going well. so are there any other websites you know about that i might not know of yet....even small websites help. any help would be greatly appreciated.thanks | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Intermediate Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 162 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.158.185.136 |
Mike: Have you been to the anti-stepping chat boards yet? These are in the order of most members/activity: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/messages http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EFTCoaa/messages http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/enemiesofbill/messages http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/messages http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/aabeginnerclub/messages http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/aabugsusbecause/messages/89 A humor page about steppinmg: http://www.geocities.com/sanegallery/ The above and several DOZENS more are on the links page for the first chat above: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/links That should hold you for a while. Let me know if you need more. | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Intermediate Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 163 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.158.185.136 |
Mike: Those were of course almost all anti-steppism. If you google on AA, you'll probably get THOUSANDS of pro-AA sites (although why anyone would want to go THERE is beyond me.) :-) | ||
| 2shane (2shane) New member Username: 2shane Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 203.206.234.106 |
I was writing this letter to a friend and then I wrote a second letter to another friend..... Saturday, 23 July 2005 Hiya Jan, I thought I'd take a break from my own bullshit for 5 minutes and write you a letter. One of the things I have expereinced, is that there are some really good things, being used inconjunction with a lot of shit by crazy people. And In Alcoholics Anonymous, if you'd like read more, there is a file on the 1 Recovery CD, and it's called "the orange papers" and if you want to make it's contents run, you have to click on the HTML or HTM files to make the contents of the folder run......(use a web browser) The Orange Papers are a very well written expose on AA (and most religions) as a cult..... But in amongst the AA literature (mostly insane shit written by a scam artist), we have some excellent (and usually misdirected) tools.... In the 12 Steps of AA there are some parts that are particularly useful. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. & 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Well we can adapt this a little to fit our end purposes.... 5. Admitted to ourselves, and another competent, experienced or qualified human being, our rights and wrongs – and we traced their sources back to their foundations – our conscious decisions and influences of those decisions. And we made a decision to reconstuct our own reality to fit the standards of emotional health that are congruent with our own internal sense of right and wrong, contrary to our peers and our society. etc.. So anyway.... I have lost enthusiasm for that tack, but I have made my point. The attached is some very good information on mental / emotional health, extracted from the "Orange Papers" files in the CD. Anyway here they is. Love & Hugs Shane. Letter #2. Hmmmmmm After being drug free for like 17 years and being away pretty solidly from AA and NA etc., for about 6 years... well I now find it hard to stomach any AA literature or mind fuck cult bullshit. In writing a letter to a sexually compulsive female friend, I tried to extract a few worthy details from the AA basic text such as "taking a fearless moral inventory of ourselves", and while this is an excellent process - of putting pen to paper - to gain clarity and objectivity; And I also know that a great many people like me have been significantly emotioanlly damaged, and come from a poor sources of intimacy and relationships, I find that the 5th step, when the fact that many people in AA are highly dysfunctional, and are limited in scope as far as intimacy, healthy relationships and having a functional grasp on reality goes, I do find it good to take myself and my issues to functional, emotionally healthy and or qualified people. But as I read through this book, I began to see to even greater depths, how people who really need help, need to be steered around and away from people in AA (etc.) because I reflected that my first 9-12 years in AA, while in some respects were useful - because I was so damaged and so far gone, and in the almost total lack of any free or low cost therapy, there was no alternative, but I reflect upon how much different things might have been had I of had professional, caring and large scale / long term therapy available - instead of AA. I needed to have long term stable relationships with qualified, caring people who were capable of having them - with me. I need/ed the healing that only these sorts of avenuse can provide. The whole expereince of AA in a nutshell, has largely been a large cult based mind fuck, and for the larger part, almost a complete waste of time. However I also find that the plauge of emotionally and character based defiencies that occour in the people who compose almost all of the people in AA, also reigns supreme in society/s at large. I have also experienced the "vilification" both from the AA members and society at large (small town life), when one becomes "enlightened" enough to begin to question the lies, the inconsistancies and accountability from those in ones environment (I live in an Aussie town full of piss pots, gossips and fucking idiots). All the clubby mind fuck bullshit that goes on in AA, goes in every where else too.... QED. Recovery and Emotional health is an inside job, based upon constant conscious decisions to be emotionally healthy. And to be emotionally healthy - one has to confront the perpetrators of abuse and their mind fuck impositions - as they occour. Anyway I hope your still well, and if you want you can post this on your website... Love and Hugs Shane. | ||
| we_agnostics (we_agnostics) Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.239.57.97 |
FACTNet lemmings..... | ||
| artwise_one Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
Anyone who isn't a lock stepping "lemming" in the cult of AA is on their way to true freedom. These days, the '12 step-movement' with it's emphasis on childhood victimization, lifetime membership, (or sentence) and complete abstinence from all psychoactive substances (like Scientology) has fortunately fallen from pop culture favor. Rational Recovery sounds like a good option to the religious cult of AA.  | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.237.91.65 |
Lemming-speak. (see above post) This is an example of the closed-mindedness of some posters on FACTNet when it comes to anything that they don't agree with or have had negative experience with. It is my observation that if one wants to fail, they will. If one wants to succeed, one will. FACTNet as a whole is an extreme example of 'nattering nabobs of negativity' which dooms them to failure. Their only recourse it to find validation for their negativity on pages such as this. You will not find any help here, if that is what you are looking for. You will only find a festering negativity, and it breeds like a cancer. The previous poster is a construct of negativity. Please read his other posts on this site to understand my statement. Love, ~~~~~W_A | ||
| artwise_one Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 73 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
Why bother posting on FACTNet W_A, if IN YOUR OPINION everyone here is as a whole, is an extreme example of 'nattering nabobs of negativity'? The truth is what it is. The '12 step-movement' with it's emphasis on childhood victimization, lifetime membership, (or sentence) and complete abstinence from all psychoactive substances (like Scientology) & bait & switch behavior, HAS fallen from pop culture favor, (which I happen to think is a very Good thing) is in fact true. Whether you happen to view this information as "negative" is your problem, it's still the truth. Plus you can't insult people and then say 'love', conditionally or not, when in truth you are very angry at anyone who even questions the the stop-think 12 step-lock step. | ||
| artwise_one Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
I think that the only real feeling you're allowed to express in the cult of AA, IS anger, and only at AA's perceived enemies, which is another aspect of the stop-think 12 step-lock step. Suggested reading: 'The Diseasing of America-Addiction treatment out of Control-Stranton Peele | ||
| tgarden100 New member Username: tgarden100 Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 71.143.117.153 |
RIGHT ON ART!!!!! | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 151 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.237.91.65 |
Dude, *YOU* are everything that you say AA is. I say AA isn't. The reason for that is that *I* know first-hand. You blather away on these pages like you're really doing anyone any good, when somehow, someway, it strokes your ego! Get real, art! Turn your computer off, go out into the world and do something positive for the world instead of condemning everything you do not agree with! When I disagree with your views, you respond with condemnation. When I dish it back, you get offended. So where does that leave us? Quite a quandary, no? So, let's agree to disagree. Live and let live. Go to town, boys and girls! You have better things to do with your lives than to waste it here on FACTNet! With unconditionally loving thoughts, ~~W_A  | ||
| prschuster Intermediate Member Username: prschuster Post Number: 372 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.4.150.190 |
Back to the original topic, Rational Recovery is NOT a cult, despite some of the absolutist attitudes that Jack Trimpey has. This is mainly because he vehemently discourages the formation of support or discussion groups. Just because he personally profits from RR doesn't make it a cult unless he were to bait & switch people into coming back and spending more & more money the way multi-level marketing scams do. | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 276 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.239.59.51 |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!  | ||
| prschuster Intermediate Member Username: prschuster Post Number: 376 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.4.146.35 |
We_agnostics laughs at, and ridicules, people with unconditional love. Beware!! This could happen to you if you "keep coming back" to the rooms in church basements for ten or twenty years. | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 278 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.239.59.51 |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!  CHECKMATE!! (What a self-important blowhard! Love does not ridicule, but FACTNet does!) | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 396 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 63.249.100.53 |
we_ag has finnally been banned from FACTNet. BTW, Rational Recovery is not even a group, much less a cult. * | ||
| plugh New member Username: plugh Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 69.143.124.150 |
As someone who used Rational Recovery to quit a serious alcohol dependency, I can say that it works quite well. That said, AA cofounder Bill Wilson's "we surely have no monopoly" admonishment applies to RR as well as AA, SMART, REBT and so on. The best thing that works is anything that works. Cults - I grew up in the Jehovah's Witnesses, and yes, I did experience some cultish behaviour. I do attribute a lot of my current defects to what I experienced in the JW religion. Does this make the JWs intrinsically bad? Or is it just one person's experiences? I can't help but think that maybe that's why I chose RR over AA - I'm done with the mind-frotzing that I got in the JWs. RR is no cult - a cult that tells its members to go away as soon as possible is about as sensible as a lesbian who only has sex with men. Doesn't happen. Totally contradictory. | ||
| gayleh New member Username: gayleh Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.21.52.23 |
Hi Everyone! I think I just had a free rational recovery.I'd say its a new religion, that includes every man, woman, and child, here on earth.Think I found the basis to our bad behavior and mental illnesses. Our problem? Our hearts are broken.Spirits. A couple years ago I saw the symptoms to post-traumatic stress disorder  see if you see yourself and everyone else somewhere in this)ANXIETY, CONFUSION, PANIC ATTACKS, FEARS, PHOBIAS, DEPRESSION, LOW SELF-ESTEEM, SHAME, GUILT, ANGER, INABILITY TO TRUST SELF OR OTHERS, NIGHTMARES, INSOMNIA,AMNESIA, VIOLENCE, SHY, HYPERVIGILANCE, HYPERCONSCIOUSNESS OF BODY AND APPEARANCE,SELF DESTRUCTIVE ADDICTIONS:ALCOHOL, DRUGS, EATING DISORDERS, SEX, GAMBLING,HOARDING, SHOPAHOLIC, PARANOIA, OCD, ADD, OUT OF CONTROL,ETC. When I saw this list I wondered if I was a trauma victim. When I was about 7 years old, a change came over me that has always had me puzzled. I became shy and full of anxiety. Later years I'd describe myself as drunk, angry, and out of control. I'm 53 now so I've been messed up quite awhile. Once I figured that all this pointed to a broken spirit, I started calming down. After a couple months I started to understand that this is what is wrong with alot of others. With time the list grew. After 5 months I wondered what was going on? I was sure defending the heck out of others. Answer= my heart was starting to work again. I was becoming more compassionate. After 9 months I figured everyone is totally innocent. A few months later I read the story of Adam and Eve again. They were naked and not ashamed. After the apple bit they were hiding, afraid, and self-conscious(put on fig leaves). Those are symptoms of PTSD.They started blaming everybody else too. There is no one to blame. This is the curse of mankind. We catch this hateful disease from each other. PTSD is not just for war vets and sexually abused children. bullyonline.com says that bullying is probably the biggest cause of it. I.E.: the other kids at school, our siblings, people at work, etc. For me I think it was chiefly the kids at school. Does't matter. Everyone gets infected with this, so I would of caught it from someone else. Anyway, before I stumbled on to this, I belonged more or less to the"religious right". I believed in the Devil and that most people were going to Hell, the world was going to end, and Jesus was going to come out of the clouds and save me. The only thing I think is going to end now is our present belief system. This mis-judgment of ourselves. I've got hope now in my fellow man and our future. I'm driving less, recycling more. For all the children and the polars bears sakes, please consider this. Love Gayle | ||
| madamemaxime New member Username: madamemaxime Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 24.45.14.37 |
prschuster declares that rational recovery is not a cult, despite Trimpey's "absolutist" ideas. "absolutist" sends up a red flag for me as absolutist ideology is at the heart of cultish thinking. prschuster has no objections to absolutist thinking, but indicates that what would make rr a cult would be if it practiced multi-level marketing. This kind of marketing can been defined as a scams or pyramid schemes, but certainly not cults. The fact is that Trimpey does practice multi-level (or pyramid) marketing. He offers his internet crash course for free (a single paragraph of simplistic ideas). But if this is not enough, he urges you to pay for the more extensive online mini-course. And if this doesn't work, you are urged to lay down a couple of thousand, plus traveling and lodging expenses, to attend his four day "class" in person. (He also offers a two day weekend "class" for the discounted price of $1400.) His website also offers several levels of subscription, one for those who are "tough cases" (his own words), which would require that they stay with rr for a longer period of time. There are weekly, monthly, and annual subscription "opportunities," and also a "patron" subscription level. If Trimpey didn't want to hook people in long-term, why would he offer these various subscriptions? And why in the world does a profit making organization have a patron category, a category usually available only through non-profit groups, such as symphony, art, and charitable organizations. These subscriptions are, in essence, donations. Why would anybody in their right mind donate to an organization that already makes a huge profit from "class tuitions," and the selling of the numerous Jack Trimpey products advertised on the site. What a HUGE scam! |
