| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
The Inside Facts About 12-Step Recovery The recovery group movement started with an organization known as Alcoholics Anonymous, (AA). They are usually looked upon as a benevolent society that does only positive things. The media usually portrays them in a positive light. The public seems to regard them as an answer to the societal problems of alcohol and drug abuse. The medical and legal communities have also embraced this organization. This is a look into the realities of the AA organization and its practices. It is also an attempt to disclose the actual nature of this organization and its impact on the public. AA comes from a religious organization known as the Oxford Group. This was started by a Lutheran minister named Frank Buchman. As a missionary in China, Reverend Buchman began holding informal meetings known as, "house parties." These were intended to bring non-church going people to a Christian fellowship. In the 1930's, AA and the Oxford Group were one in the same. Their basic fundamental beliefs were based on, "God control." It was a purely religious organization that emphasized purity, honesty, unselfishness and, love. Within this, their most important objective was to win souls for Christ. The process involved what is called the five C's: Confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and, continuance(Ragge 5). An individual named Bill Wilson was contacted by someone within the Oxford Group. He suffered from a severe addiction to alcohol. He then became a participant of this group and began to evangelize in hospitals and sanitariums. He soon discovered that the Oxford Group was not enough to keep him sober(The Birth of AA). In 1935, Mr. Wilson met another person suffering from addiction known as Dr. Bob Smith. Together they formed what came to be known as AA. Bill Wilson wrote his book in 1939(The Birth of AA). By individual members of AA, this book, now known as the, "Big Book," is considered to be, "divinely inspired." In reality, it is just a summary of what the Oxford Group had already established. The 12-steps that are included in chapter 5 of this book are given the same reverence as the 10 Commandments are given by the Judeo/Christian world. They are an interpretation of the five C's of the Oxford Group. At least half of those steps make a direct reference to God(Rational Recovery). The reason for having twelve steps may be related to the fact that there were twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Within the AA halls across America, the Twelve Steps are posted, along with what is called the Twelve Traditions. The Traditions outline the general format of operations for this organization. The second tradition states, "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as he may express himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern."(Wilson 546). Pictures of Dr. Bob Smith and Bill Wilson are also found hanging within the halls. These two individuals have had some sort of, "sainthood," bestowed upon them and are revered among members. Usually the "Serenity Prayer," is also posted. This is a prayer to God and in some meetings, is recited by the participants. In some meetings, the Lord's Prayer is recited. The Big Book is readily available and is usually carried by members. It is also sold within the halls; Along with other AA related literature. Since this book is considered sacred text, a meeting always contains some readings from it; Usually out of chapter five, "How it Works." Some meetings are completely dedicated to the study of this book; Similar to Bible studies that are available in Christian churches. Through its own writings, AA denies any affiliation with any sect or denomination and regards itself as a purely spiritual entity(Defining AA). There is even a chapter in the Big Book entitled, "We Agnostics," that attempts to deal with the subject(Wilson 57). However, this chapter makes many references to God and spirituality and concludes with the statement, "When we drew near to him, he disclosed himself to us." With the evidence presented, AA is clearly a religion. Several court cases have established this fact. One in particular is the case of Griffin vs. Coughlin in the New York Court of Appeals dated June 11, 1996. It was found that the substance abuse program then in use by the New York Department of Corrections was deemed unconstitutional because, "after a fair reading of the doctrinal literature, of Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12-step program was found to be unequivocally religious."(Rational Recovery). In a 1994 case in Federal Court, (O'Conner vs. Orange County and the State of California), AA was found to be religious and the State of California must now offer alternatives to twelve step programs(Rational Recovery). Many other cases exist throughout the country and will continue. This is in part due to the US Constitution and First Amendment rights that require a Separation of Church and State. Included in this would be the possibility that mandatory 12-Step attendance could be construed as an Establishment of a Religion by the Government(Amendment 1). In most cases, a person is introduced to AA through an outside source. This may be by the court system, a company or corporation employee assistance program, college or university assistance offices and, in some cases, the family of the person that has an addiction. The AA organization and the members associated with it are self-absorbed. They believe that their organization is the only answer for the addiction problem. They seem to act as the ultimate authority and reject other programs or solutions to addiction. They will show a marked hostility towards the alternative treatment programs that exist. These alternative programs include, but are not limited to, Rational Recovery, Moderation Management, Aversion Therapy and, Secular Organizations for Sobriety. AA has also rejected some experimental programs. The reality is that no program is 100% effective and that includes AA. Actually, any statistical study is usually flawed. It has been observed that at least half of the individuals that go to AA meetings are under some sort of coercion; Either by the courts or because of a job related problem. Those individuals may not participate with the program. And some individuals may still be actively involved in some sort of addiction. Since AA has no idea how many member they have and they do not survey individual members, most studies have been done on a limited number of people(Membership). Some studies on a limited number of people have shown AA to be effective. Other studies have shown alternative programs to be just as effective as AA. In some studies, AA members went back to their addiction more often. It all depends on your point of view. A major problem with AA and some of the alternative programs is that they have no professional guidance. This is particularly true within the AA group environment. Since AA relies on the philosophy of, "one drunk helping another," any individual can be placed in charge of another to assist them in working the program(Defining AA). If a person is mentally ill or unstable in any way, the advice that they get could cause many problems. Some of the mentally ill are on psychotropic drugs that help them maintain a balance. Older AA members could regard this as some sort of drug abuse. They may even tell the mentally ill to stop taking their medication. This can have catastrophic results. If a person is mentally ill and they get the wrong advice from an uneducated person, they may do something drastic. It has been known to happen. The AA meeting itself can be a dangerous environment. Although AA stresses nonviolence, many violent people may be in attendance. It is not uncommon to have individuals that were just released from prison to be in attendance. Wanted criminals also may be present. People that are under the influence of all forms of substances are known to attend. Street people, drug dealers and, prostitutes. The list goes on and on. Before and after the meeting, the parking lot may have drug deals and prostitution. Other crimes may also be prevalent. Some meetings may be safer than others but people could find themselves in an unsafe environment. AA is a dangerous place for women. Some of the members may use coercion to obtain sex from the new women that attend. The slang term for this is Thirteenth Stepping. Any person that has an addiction problem also has a degree of emotional problems. Weaker individuals are easy prey. Since the AA religion does not have high moral standards, many immoral activities are present. This religion may use Christian prayers and some Christian doctrine but they are not Christian. The language that is used in the meeting can at times be very profane. Since there are meetings that are specifically for the gay and lesbian population, people from a Christian background may find the organization particularly offensive. The actual Christians that go to meeting may be at times, ridiculed for their belief system. At times, they may be publicly criticized. This may be because the Big Book is placed above and beyond the Bible. Attempts are often made by the AA members to discount a Christian's beliefs. Members of the Catholic Church may find AA to against their religion. This is due to the fact that some Catholics believe it to be a sin to worship in another denomination. Family members of those individuals that are coerced into AA are sometimes targeted. Treatment centers regard them as sick and usually recommend ALANON or ALATEEN. These organizations are related to AA and utilize the same basic philosophy. They will use terms such as codependency or co-alcoholic. They follow the same basic 12-step format. Some individuals in AA actually believe that the entire population of the planet should be involved in a twelve-step program. These individuals usually have been in the organization for an extended period of time and may have actually become addicted to the program. They have also become completely absorbed into the AA philosophy. Public and private institutions that openly support the AA organization may be in violation of the law or possibly be involved in something that could be considered unethical. Here is a partial list of what may be wrong with institutional support of the AA religion. *Court decisions that mandate treatment and AA attendance as a condition of parole or probation could violate an individuals constitutional right to freedom of religion and the separation of church and state(Amendment 1). *Federal, state and, local offices that provide space or fund programs specifically for the AA organization and its philosophy are in essence promoting and funding a religious entity. *Public and private educational institutions with student assistance programs that only include the AA philosophy and information on it are clearly providing only one solution and could be promoting a religion. *Churches that offer space for AA meetings are allowing another religion to practice a faith within their building. This may conflict with their own doctrine. Since AA meetings may have low moral standards, there could be negative repercussions. *Company and Corporation employee assistance programs that only offer the AA format are singling out only one solution. They could be promoting a religion. *Medical and Psychological care providers that only present the AA organization as a solution for addiction may be depriving patients of other valuable resources. In some cases they may be prescribing a religion. Within this country everyone has the right to choose a course of treatment for an illness. It is imperative that they choose it wisely. Since several options are available for the treatment of addiction, it would be wise to investigate and select the best possible program; Based upon an individuals needs. The citizens of this country also have the right to worship in any religion that they choose. Based upon the information presented, the AA organization is a treatment for addiction and it is also a religion. It should be treated as such. Work Cited AA Web Site. "The Birth of AA and its Growth in US/Canada." AA Online. 1999. http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org. (11/06/99). AA Web Site. "Defining AA." AA Online. 1999. http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org. (11/06/99). AA Web Site. "Membership." AA Online. 1999. http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org. (11/06/99). "Griffin vs. Coughlin." Rational Recovery Political and Legal Action Network. Online. 1999. http://www.rational.org. (11/06/99). "O'Conner vs. Orange County and the State of California." Rational Recovery Political and Legal Action Network. Online. 1999. http://www.rational.org. (11/06/99). Ragge, Ken. "In the Beginning." The Real AA, Behind the myth of 12 Step Recovery. Tucson, Arizona: Sharp Press, 1998. US Government. "US Constitution, Amendment 1." Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia. 1999 ed. CD-ROM. Cambridge, Ma.: The Learning Company, 1998. Wilson, Bill. Alcoholics Anonymous. Third Edition. New York: AA World Services, 1976. | ||
| Anonymous |
You're right! AA didn't work for me so I joined a Christian church. THAT worked! | ||
| Anonymous |
Over 10 years ago I was blindsided by a confrontational surprise meeting which involved my wife, three adult children and some stranger "counselor" -- read: headhunter for the treatment program. I was told that I was an alcoholic and had to go into a residential treatment program "or else..." It was like a blow to the gut. The whole thing was set up by my second daughter who is a very controlling individual. It is interesting that she refuses to confront her problems but the rest of us must confront ours. Double standard. I was immediately driven to program housed on the grounds of a large Catholic hospital. I soon discovered that I was surrounded by some of the most dreadful and dangerous thugs you could imagine. Many had just been released from jail or the pen and were bragging about their drug deals that were still on going. There was illicit sex going on in the laundry room at odd hours. Since I was about 58 years old, I was one of the oldest inmates there and could never relate to the majority of those who were as young or younger than my own kids. I was supposed to be there for at least 30 days. No way, Jose. This old man was not going to put up with the b.s. for very long. I figured that as soon as I could tell the counselors, some with a Nazi guard mentality, what they wanted to hear, I could bust out. In just under two weeks I was back home and mad as a wet hen. I was not an alcoholic; I was, and still am, an alcohol abuser -- big difference. For six months I went totally dry and that was no big thing. Exactly six months after I first went in, I took a solo trip to Mexico just to get the hell away from all the damned pressure and nonsense. I spent two weeks in Ensenada soaking up the sun and relaxing with a toddy or three. I figured that after two weeks in that hell hole I deserved two weeks of surf and sun and shrimp. I came back with a new attitude. No longer would anyone push me around. If they did not like me or what I did, tough. I am who I am and shall not change at my age, now 67. The point is that not only is AA a religion but it is also a cult. Just look at the requirements of it being the "only way," strict following of the 12 steps, no questions (they call it paralysis by analysis), blind faith, these are now your new and only friends, etc. When I look back on that gang of goons and thugs who surrounded me, I shudder at the thought. Never in a million years would I ever choose to associate myself with them. The whole thing was a mad sick joke. I even attended some after care follow up meetings. Yikes! The same old crap. I was told not to speak up or say anything because I "did not know enough." I was supposed to sit silently in meeting after meeting for at least a year before I was permitted to speak. Helluva deal. Then, much in the same vein as the Amway pins, little discs were awarded for so many months or years of sobriety. Each year of sobrity was celebrated by having a "birthday" party. One fellow I know quite well and who is a strong AA member told me that his AA birthday was more important than his actual birthday! Good grief. I am sure that for some, AA is a good deal but it is not the only deal. To use any force to get someone to submit to the religion, cult and social aspects of AA is wrong. | ||
| Anonymous |
this is a complex subject. i'm a drug addict who tried for many years to get clean through AA/NA. i had a lot of "issues" with "the program" mostly that i kept hearing that the most important act for them was to "help another addict in need". however the reality I saw was that new people were shunned. it was like being the new kid at school. you were expected to be quiet and be in awe of all of the "popular" people until they deemed it time to "let you in". i've never been much of a "follower" so that really rubbed me the wrong way. i also had bad experiences with sponsers trying to take over my life and i noticed that the AA/NA "philosophy" could be twisted to make any sort of point one might want to make. for example-- all of those people with more clean time that weren't "helping out the newcomer"? well they could always say something like "so-and-so isn't serious about their program and i can't risk my own recovery by hanging out with them". i did some own twisting of the philosophy myself. for example it ocurred to me that if i were REALLY powerless against my addiction and God were the only power who could help me stay clean then perhaps God had some "reason" for me to "stay out there" (in active addiction) a little longer. made sense to me. however. in defense of AA/NA i must say these things-- 1) i do in fact believe that addiction is both a physical and spiritual malady. so it makes sense to me to have a spiritual solution. and how are you going to have a spiritual solution without mentioning some sort of greater power? i'm not so sure AA/NA should be called a religion. 2) i don't believe that AA/NA is a cult. diversity and dissension are actually encouraged. i know because i was on the dissenting end many a time. and i never felt discouraged from expressing my beliefs. i've not experienced any kind of "hounding" by former AA/NA friends to come back in the program. Nor have I experienced being "shunned" by them. and lastly i want to point out this-- you can't have it both ways. you can't have a big group of people trying to help each other accomplish something without there either being too many and too strict rules or there being a variety of people who are going to be "fringe" elements and possibly dangerous. especially in a group trying to get people clean & sober! i personally prefer the latter and i think AA/NA has done a pretty good job at achieving a good balance. | ||
| George Cowie |
People who are promoting the agenda of another organization, or who have found other ways to address their spirtual needs, or who are unhappy with their individual personal experiences in recovery may attempt to discredit AA. The best test for one's own potential for recovery is to attend meetings. Neither AA as a whole nor its individual groups have any quarrel with other recovery methods. One will hear indivudual members expressing their own opinions on the matter, but that is a different thing.In fact, it is clear from AA's own literature that Alcohlics Anonymous does not lay claim to being the only solution to addictions. In addition, each AA group stands on its own, being subject to overview in areas where its actions may detract from the positive message of AA as a whole. Literature is available from AA describing all of the activties related to Alcoholics Anonymous. It's better to consult the source than to rely on arugments from others. Anyone can contact AA, either through their telephone books or at www.aa.org. Further, and as an historical note of great importance, the Oxford Movement (not Group) was estabished in England in an attempt to make the established Church there more responsive to the spiritual needs of the community, and as a counter-response to the awakening of English Roman Catholicism, (under Newman). At meetings we do enjoy a chuckle at the more outlandish claims that AA is a cult or or a religion, or that we are members of an AA cult, but it is a serious matter for us as recovering alcoholics to see the organization succeed in reaching as many problem drinkers and real alcoholics as possible. Claims that we are a cult or a religion may keep away someone in real need. AA's origins in Christianity are clear and are not in dispute. It's also clear that AA has intentionally transcended sectarian religion to become a beacon of hope, or as we call it "the last house on the block," for many brought low by the disease of alcoholism, regardless of caste, class, nationality, or religious or spiritual preference. We do indeed spend time with others as the most effective way to help ourselves by "carrying the message." But we also emphasize group contact as equally important in personal recovery. Sometime one wishes to simply sit and listen to the stories of experience, strength and hope told by others. We are a very large, informal organization. There are thousands of meetings worldwide. We have an average cross-section of human society as our membership, so it is not surprising that the occasional fraud may find his or her way to our meetings and attempt to deceive others, whether for financial gain or personal power. Such misconduct is quickly exposed. Moreover, since each group or meeting is wholly independent of the others, such misbehavior is limited. I encourage anyone who needs help with recovery from alcoholism (AA's primary purpose) to keep an open mind and investigate AA for him or herself. If it is not for you, then move on to get help elsewhere. But please, get help soon. | ||
| Anonymous |
I appreciate everyone's input and experiences. I have been a member of several 12 step programs for seventeen years. I have discovered that certain meetings meet my needs more than others. There is a powerful statement always read called "take what you like and leave the rest." Many groups have stopped using the lords prayer at the end of the meetings and us the serenity prayer which is not religous. I just had the most horrifying experience with an old friend of high school who is an ex drug addict and is in some form of coercian religous/non-religous group. He claims to love the lord but says terrible things about others. I myself have had some form of religous abuse as well as sexual abuse and it was a relief to go to AA to find the spirituality and acceptance that I needed that I NEVER got from a church and my grandfather was a minister. The abuse I got from this old friend has now encouraged me to look at my spiritual blocks but I think there are many abusive religous and non religous groups and individuals out there. I feel that when I become confident enough in what I believe I can take what I want and leave the rest in almost any environment. | ||
| Anonymous |
Please note that UT's Faulkner made a little attempt to show less support of his colleagues of sex industry career entrepreneurs, in pasting a sticker over an ad for a strip joint. Sometimes such as in Houston or Dallas, a sex industry career background is a qualification for running an AA group, which is difficult if funders mobilize members to chase after some women who don't have any connection with such industries or AA, etc. The answers should be to keep journals and send them to the national offices, however, there are those in agencies who recommend mandatory AA attendance and as public officials engage in private profit. Privatization encourages such activity. | ||
| Anonymous |
I find it to be very interesting that people post messages on a topic they really do not have correct knowledge of. AA and the oxford groups are not one in the same. The oxford groups had a very large influence on the men who started AA however AA is and has always been its own entity. Most of the members I know do not think AA is the only answer for everyone who suffers fron Alcohol addiction, they may believe it is the only answer for them personally as this is their experience. There are no rules only suggestions. It has been my experience that the people who tend to dis credit AA are the ones who do not understand what it is all about. Any one who may need to change their life has to take action if you do not take action your life does not change. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yo viví lo que el grupo de alcoholícos anónimos ( fuera de serie, esto es no reconocidos por oficina central ) llama "Experiencia espiritual de cuarto y quinto paso ". Supuestamente estos grupos se guían por los principios de AA, pero en México y en el interior de la república, estos grupos se forman de lideres que provienen de centros de confinamiento y rehabilitación llamados anexos en los cuales adquiren la habilidad de convertirse en guías y terapeutas. Posteriormente a casi todo tipo de gente con problemas de tipo emocional o adicciones se nos prepara en siete sesiones de dos hrs. dos sesiones por semana y tres en la última y al termino de ésta el fin de semana empezando el viernes y terminando el domingo nos colocan en atmósferas controladas bajo la presión psicológica de los testimonios de la forma de vida de los exalcohólicos y adictos; al mismo tiem po se nos motiva a ir escribiendo nuestra vida en una autobiografía guiada por ellos en los temas sexuales, sociales, emocionales de acuerdo al cuarto paso de AA y siguiendo de referencia las vivencias de los participantes que son miembros que ya han vivido la experiencia para reflejarse en los casos y comportamientos pasados de los participante y así ir recordando y escribiendo las experiencias personales; esto transcurre desde aproximadamente las 7 pm del viernes hasta las 7 p.m. del sabado siguiente, siendo el momento en el cual se desborda una situación de máxima tensión emocional por el alto contenido emocional de las experiencias y su representación drmática narrativa enfatizando el dolor y sufrimiento que causaron o vivieron, es en estos momentos que uno esta en un estado de ansiedad y angustía mezclado con pensamientos reflexivos de conciencia y al mismo tiempo por los defectos y la forma de vivir y por los errore u Horrores cometidos llegamos a u un arrepentimiento y colapso del ego, es una experiencia humillante y egoreductora. En esos momentos la gente entra en griterío, confusión, llorando a gritos y pidiendo perdón los padrinos apoyos nos sacan al patío repentínamente, hablandonos firmemente "no temas yo te voy a ayudar dejate guiar" pero en la confusión muchos se desmayan o entran en crísis nerviosas, afuera nos tomamos de las manos y nos invitan a cerrar nuestros ojos como en las sesiones de preparación por que eso hacían los primeros 100 alcohólicos; fue en esos momentos que empezé a escuchar un zumbido como un gran ejambre de abejas, traté de mirar hacia arriba y no ví nada se me incitó a mantenerlos cerrados fue en ese momento cuando sentí que se acercaba algo muy grande y generé en mi pensamiento que se trataba de una gran nave espacial como en la película del día de la independencia (4 july) y sentí gran temor porque pensé que los padrinos tenían contacto con los extraterrestres en ese momento con los ojos cerrados una gran luz blanca que despues se torno un poco amarilla la sentí enfrente de mí y pensé chín ya está bajando la nave y me va a quemar con los retrocohetes de descenso, pero en ese momento sentí un aire que me atravezó, como si mi cuerpo fuera permeable y sentí una sacudida que me estremeció y exclamé casi gritando " !Entoces sí existes¡ " tenía la plena convicción de que era la presencia de Dios a pesar que casi no se hablaba hasta ese momento de él, sólo nos decían que sacaramos nuestros resentimientos, luego después de un rato si nos empezaron a decir que se se acercaba el rey de reyes el zar de los cielos el espiritu del un iverso y le pidiesemos perdón por nuestras faltas de rodillas y postrados en tierra posteriormente nos incorporamos y sentí como la describe el psicológo Abraham Maslow " El sentimiento de horizontes ilimitados que se abren a la visión, el sentimiento de ser simultáneamente poderoso y desválido, segun mi opinión porque conocía ya en ese momento mis defectos y debilidades y eso me hacía sentir confiado y con fortaleza es decir pederoso por lo que ya podía cuidarme de mis debilidades humanas, también sentí gran extasis maravilla y temor con la convicción que algo muy importante había sucedido en mi vida y me había dado alegría de vivir correctamente por lo que qued´´e transformado y vigorizado en mi vida diaria ". Desde ese momento no bebí y traté de enmendar mi vida con lo que yo había detectado y me uní a las actividades del grupo siendo después apoyo y padrino por durante cuatro años en los que empezé a sopechar de dependencia malsana y las formas de tipo secta destructiva que he ido analizando que se estaba convirtiendo la organización. Mi interés es que se alerte a todo mundo como ustedes lo hacen de los riesgos, pros y contras de estos grupos y se realize una investigación publicándose en sus epacios del fenómeno que está sucediendo en los gruopos de cuarto y quinto paso de amor y servicio en la república mexicana ya que ha habido casos de suicidios, transtornos psíquicos y mentales, abusos, y tragedias familiaras en los que estos movimientos han tenido cierto grado de participación. Atentamente manolovilma México D.F. | ||
| karma (61.247.224.122) |
Dear brothers and sisters,This is Karma Sonam Thargye. I am a man, 30 years old. I am a Tibetan. Tibet is a country, which was occupied by Chinese in 1959. My parents escaped from Tibet to India. I have lost my father when I was 3 years old. I have 3 sisters. They all are working. My eldest sister is a tailoring teacher. My elder sister is a beautician. And my youngest sister is in army. My mother is a teacher. I grew up in the school and hostel. We all are studying in different places and I never got a chance to meet them for 15 years. I was grown up in schools and hostels. When I finished my school, I joined in a college and I did my M.A Honors. At that time I was badly lost in hashes and drinking alcohol. I had been searching for truth for seven years. . I tried to find answer in different ways but I couldn’t. I did meditation many times. I am from Buddhist family. I used to stay with Hindu Gurus and did yoga many times. I am a musician too. Everyday, I played music and had a party for smoking and drinking. After 3 years, I felt emptiness and very loneliness. And I reached very far that, there is no mean to come back into normal life. I lost 6 friends because of overdosed. When I finished university, I went to Leh-Ladakh. (North India) I thought, that is a remote area and good nature. I was assured to stop everything. When I reached there I was appointed as a school’s principal. I was too young for that but they were satisfied. I was teaching to teachers (Distt. Institute Of Education Training) as a lecturer. I was working with thousands of people and still I felt loneliness and emptiness. I used to read 100 of books. I used to do meditation. I worked with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhist, but I was not satisfied. One day, I found a great book called NA. When I went through that book, it was all about God and their testimonies. I tried to find Him many times but I couldn't. That book made me very confused. I didn't understand what God they are talking about. After one year, I got a chance to go to Israel. I saw in the newspaper. There was an interview call for agriculture course and working in Israel for 2 years. I went there and I was selected. But all of my friends were telling me not to go there because I had a good job. But I decided to go there because I thought that I could stop alcohol and drugs. I heard from many Israelis, hashes and alcohol are very expensive over there. But when I reached in the Kibbutz, there were many workers from Thailand. They worked whole day and drunk at night. They invited me after a week and I joined with them. Then later, I met many European and American volunteers. They all are smoking and drinking. After two months, I cried to God and asked Him to answer me and changed me. I couldn’t change myself. Next day, a group of evangelists came to our Kibbutz and they distributed Christian’s books. My roommate had got two books. He kept in his shelf. One day, we were cleaning our room. Suddenly, He said, "These Christians books I want to throw". I asked him, "Why?' He said that because of these books I couldn't sleep well and everything went wrong. I thought it must have something. I went to the roof and picked up the books and read it. It was Peace with God from Billy Graham and a New Testament. I read the Peace with God. That book encouraged me to read Bible. But I couldn't accept Jesus. I didn't know any Tibetan Christian. I knew that my family would reject me. So, I stopped reading the Bible. After 3 months, I cried again to the God. At that time I asked," Jesus, if you are the God, come to me and answer me and changed me". In the morning, I just open the Bible and I saw John: 14:6. Jesus said, "I am the way, life and the truth". Then I thought, I should read more bibles to know Jesus. So, I went to Eliot (south Israel near Red Sea) and I met the evangelist who gave us books. I studied with them and stayed with them. I could stop alcohol; drugs and I don't feel loneliness and emptiness. I am very happy now.So, God gave me a vision to save those who are still lost in alcohol and drugs. I myself was lost for 10 years and Jesus saved me. These days, I am always trying to reach those people and try to help them to save. And Jesus is always with me in my all circumstances. I am working alone and I have no church and support from any missionary. Jesus is my provider. Phi-4: 19 is my hope and whenever I pray I remember the Mark 11:24.When I came back from Israel, my mother and sisters kicked me out from the house and burnt my all Christian books and Bibles. I tried to suicide 3 times but I was saved. I slept in the street for 2 months. Police caught me from the railway station where I used to stay and they put me into prison for 40 days. One night I prayed to God and I clearly hear a voice. It said, "Do not worry and I will protect you". So, in the next morning I was released from the jail. Then I went to Calcutta for discipleship training. After training I met a Russian family, they have a vision to change the India. I am helping him as a translator. But now he found a good Indian translator and I decided to work on my vision. Now, I am working as a Customer Care Executive. I am working at night shift. I also go out in the street at daytime to meet alcoholics, drugs addiction and sometimes to the prostitution and pray with them and give some useful books. I know many young people who are in lost and looking for answer in their life. And they don’t have any purpose of their life. I am praying with them and encouraging them to stop and bring Jesus in their lives. I am working alone and sharing my salary for my mission. I am getting $ 150 per month.Dear brothers and sisters if you can help me for a rehab center for alcoholic and drugs addicted it will be great. I will be very happy if we can work together to save those who are still in lost. If any body is interested to write me, here is my mail ID. karmala74@yahoo.com I need a rehab center for alcoholics and drugs addicted. Please pray for me that God will provide me everything at right time. Only Jesus can change us and save us. May God bless you all!With love in JesusKarma Sonam | ||
| soberirishalco (soberirishalco) New member Username: soberirishalco Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 159.134.62.79 |
my opinions on AA/NA: yes,i am a member yes,it is the only thing that has worked FOR ME BUT yes,there are extremists within the group who bring on a cultlike element to the whole thing,ruining it for others,with their "suggestions",and downright cheesy rhetoric,claiming to be my new and only friends,and that my old friends were not my real friends.in my case,nothing could be further from the truth.despite the whole"we all help each other in NA" mentality,no members ever ring me,unless they want me to do something for the meeting,but my "using buddies" do.also,it is my "using buddies" who have dug me out of financial holes that my so-called na friends put me in.just because these losers never had any real friends,doesn't mean they have the right to tell me the same is true for me.it's not!also,all the hassle i've had in the last few months,ranging from psychotic stalker-like textmessages to being hounded for money,has all been from members.there are alot of people in na/aa who dedicate their lives to the program,conventions and phoning only other members etc,and believe everything they are told unconditionally,now matter how adulterated it has become since the intial founding of the movement.quite simply,these people are sad,sick,pathetic losers with nothing else in their silly little empty and meaningless lives.though a member,i have full and satisfying life outside the fellowships,and therefore have no need to do more than keeps me clean and sober.in the meetings you WILL find drama queens,clowns,psychos,weirdos,perverts,losers,down-and-out scumbags,freaks,puppets,sheep and many other silly people you would be mortified to be even remotely associated with,that spend all the time that they are not at meetings reading selfhelp books and ranting about how "there are no coincidences" and "everything happens for a reason" and all this other nonsense that is taken as gospel just because some nobodies said so at a meeting,and these zombies believed them. there are also however,many members who have been inspirational and pivotal in my recovery,and i feel they also deserve recognition. my advice:should you have a problem with addiction,go and see what the meetings are like yourself with an open mind,and then make up your own.just know how to recognize the irrelevant rubbish,and to avoid the less savoury members(quite alot!).at the end of the day,much as i despise alot of the individuals and their petty corruption of the movement,i feel the program is worthwhile for people like me.it's not for everyone,though.i attend the program as an individual,and not as a member of the sick,"happy family" cult that na in my area has become.i leave the meeting as an individual without the other individuals,and i get on with my life.i need sobriety,but not the other psychotic members that i must endure an hour at a time to maintain it.after all,i don't know any of them,and just because they go to meetings does not in any way necessitate that i will choose them over my real friends,whom i've known most of my life,long before i ever met these lunatics.nor does it necessitate that i even want to speak to them or have anything to do with them when i have the misfortune to meet them in public,and i am 18months clean and sober. | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Intermediate Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 305 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.211.56.203 |
soberirishalco: And why do you give AA the credit for your 18 months of sobriety? Were they holding your hands every Saturday night to prevent you from picking up a drink? I don't think so. The ONLY one who kept you sober all this time is YOU. You ought to be congratulating YOURSELF for that courageous feat, not some group of sickos who really could give a damn whether you stay sober or not, as long as you keep coming back. You finally got sick and tired of being sick and tired. Did you know that 80% of those who quit alcohol or drugs do so on their own, without any treatment whatsoever? It's a wonder you've been a good little stepper for so long and still kept an outside life and your old friends. The "sponsors" and "counselors" usually tell the members to make the group their only friends and family. You only keep going back now out of habit. You didn't need AA all this time, and you don't now either. You've already proven that - the trick is to just acknowledge it to yourself. | ||
| msdominatus (msdominatus) New member Username: msdominatus Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.118.224.187 |
geokstr - How do you walk away from the friends you've made in AA? My bf and I want to leave but, everyone we know now is in the group (which i'll assume is their intent) and we love some of those people. Im so afraid to leave because I know they will have 'sponsorship direction' to stay away from us because we're 'sick'. Please read my other post from today under the other active Alcoholics Anonymous thread... I reallllllllly need some help an dneed to do something soon. | ||
| geokstr (geokstr) Intermediate Member Username: geokstr Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.214.39.137 |
Hi msdominatus: I did post a reply to you on the other thread. I may have sounded very pessimistic in it, but you seemed to indicate there that your BF was already in the thrall of the cult. You seem to be saying here that he is willing to leave under the right circumstances. The first thing that BOTH of you need to realize is that THESE ARE NOT GOOD FRIENDS. The SECOND you leave, they will turn their backs on you - immediately. This "love" you feel towards some of them is FALSE INTIMACY. It happens when someone is forced to reveal their darkest secrets to a group of strangers. This violates your own inner boundaries, and in order to reconcile that, your psyche makes you believe these are really your closest friends. If they weren't, you couldn't stand to know that you have revealed all this to people you don't even know. It might be tough, but make some new friends, who are not fixated on alcohol. As long as he stays in AA, they will force him to beat the hell out of his own dignity, confidence and sense of self-worth. If you don't believe that, ask yourself why he needs to continually call himself an "alcoholic", declare that his life is beyond his control (step 1), that he is insane (step 2), make a list of everything wrong with himself (step 4), then tell the group all about it (step 5), expect God to perform a miracle and make him perfect (step 7), make it up to everyone he has ever wronged, even if they were they biggest offenders in those matters (step 9), then continue publicly beating himself up forever (step 10), expect God to actually TALK to him (step 11), and then proselytize the AA religion to everyone for the rest of his life (step 12). Not only that, but he must do all those things PERFECTLY, or else he is not working the program, will relapse, and face "jail, institutions and death. Now anyone with an IQ higher than steamed broccoli will understand that it is absolutely impossible to "work it" perfectly, especially since the "steps" destroy your self-confidence in the first place. It will NOT be easy to leave, but you MUST at least try. In fact, one of the most powerful means that any cult has of keeping you locked in is by making it an "US vs THEM" thing. Once everyone in your life is part of the cult, because they've told you to kick everyone else out, there will be a powerful sense of loneliness to overcome if you ever try to leave. Here is a chat board where a lot of ex-steppers hang out. Some of them have up to 30 YEARS in the cult - now they wonder how they'll ever get their life back again. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/messages Here are two very powerful sites that can explain to you in excrutiating detail why AA is so destructive: http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html http://www.morerevealed.com/ Good luck and be strong. I'll be happy to offer any information or encouragement. Just ask. | ||
| prschuster (prschuster) Intermediate Member Username: prschuster Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.4.180.241 |
Hi Geokstr. I've been preoccupied with debunking creationism lately, but I thought I'd weigh in here with a comment about "My Life in the AA Cult". The worst part for me was the self disclosure. I could handle the repetitive Big Book readings and testimonials at meetings, but when it came to moral inventories and doing 5th steps, it felt like being emotionally naked in front of strangers. Only a cult would expect you to bear your soul to those who have not yet earned your trust. This reminds me a lot of the cult-like atmosphere that surrounded the extreme radical cliques of the late 60s & early 70s. I was on the fringes of that back in my freewheeling days. It was a similar kind of cognitive dissonance trying to shoehorn everything into the simplistic slogan-laden language that was in vogue at the time. Now I'm hearing another brand of this cognitive dissonance where everything is an addiction and if you disagree, you are in "denial". That's very much like the 60s & 70s radical double talk where you were branded as a bourgeois liberal or reactionary if you didn't take their extreme stand without question. | ||
| gawain (gawain) Member Username: gawain Post Number: 51 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 151.203.144.29 |
I was in a 12 step program & none of it resembled any of the gothic horror stories retailed in this thread. I suggest people look into what recovery resources are in their area & not rely on lurid & possibly trolling "exposes" of just about everything under the sun as supposed cults. | ||
| prschuster (prschuster) Intermediate Member Username: prschuster Post Number: 119 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.4.175.61 |
gawain, you probably remained at the fringes of the group and then left before getting seriously involved with the inner workings of the fellowship. You may not realize just how common some of the abuses are. It wasn't 'til I left the rooms that I realized how often I was snubbed or condescended upon when I didn't use the right phrase or slogan. It's a very subtle socialization process. I've also heard from a couple women about their experiences with sexual predation, which is endemic in AA/NA . One of the worst aspects of AA is the total atmosphere of unaccountability inherent in the sponsor system. Abuse is inevitable when extremely vulnerable people are put under the guidance & direction of sponsors who have absolutely no training in counseling and a lot of unresolved issues of their own. Most newcomers are lucky to escape the worst of these abuses, but they are still common enough to warrant attention. | ||
| gawain (gawain) Member Username: gawain Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 151.203.144.29 |
PR, you don't know anything about my relationship to the group. There's a danger of generalising from one's own limited experience. Also, we are now in the grip of reactionary Republican double talk, according to which anyone who disagrees with them is un-American & a traitor... Abuses & problems occur within every organization & every human group. That doesn't make all these cults. (Message edited by Gawain on July 03, 2005) | ||
| prschuster (prschuster) Intermediate Member Username: prschuster Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.4.180.129 |
Gawain, since everyone's personal experiences are limited, and abuses occur within every group, you could use this very same argument to defend any cult. AA's involvement with a coercive recovery industry with govt ties is too well documented to deny. This cooperation with the courts, rehabs, and front organizations like NCADD is outlined in a GSO document about AA guidelines, at the following URL: http://www.readingberksintergroup.org/guidelines3.htm This whole system has been put into place by AA members themselves under the cover of anonymity, greatly compromising their tradition of "attraction, not promotion". Many of the abuses that happen in the rooms come from scammers who jump into the system to avoid jail time or to keep a job, and who have little interest in spiritual growth. Problems, like sexual predation, have become endemic because of policies like this. | ||
| we_agnostics (we_agnostics) Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.239.57.97 |
PARANOIDS..... | ||
| beast (beast) New member Username: beast Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 64.237.237.83 |
Wow there are some very strong feelings here. I will post a more detailed message later but for now I'll say this AA certainly is not perfect but were not all 'queens,clowns,psychos,weirdos,perverts,losers,down-and-out scumbags,freaks,puppets,sheep' I just want to stay sober and AA really works. | ||
| we_agnostics (we_agnostics) Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.239.57.97 |
Beast, don't waste your time. This page and the entire "FACT"net is for paranoid, hypocritical stooges! I am suggesting you just stay on the outstide and look in at what sickness is out there in the world. There is no reasoning with these "FACT"net people, they are 'stuck on stupid' and are exactly what you state AA is not: "queens,clowns,psychos,weirdos,perverts,losers,down-and-out scumbags,freaks,puppets,sheep". Stay on the outside and observe.....you WILL be amused! CAUTION: Don't follow the "FACT"net lemmings! With love (unconditionally!), WE_AGNOSTICS | ||
| shewolf8000 New member Username: shewolf8000 Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 71.143.117.153 |
We_agnostics You can't really judge a peron until you have walked in their shoes, I was in AA for many years and was hurt badly by individuals and the twisted outdated "program" of Alcoholics Anonymous. You really don't know what you are talking about. Your experience is too different to undersand what we have gone through unless one day you wake up, think for your self and want to get out, but maybe not, some people seem to be happy there, but then you hear about their suicide or overdose, life is hard enough without people being mean and judgemental towards each other. I have noticed you attack the people, we are attacking the program. Be nice please!!! | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.237.91.65 |
Oh, she, I read your post on the other blog first, and now I read this. Look, I feel really sorry for all you poor unfortunates who have been 'hurt' by AA. Poor things. There! You have my pity! I read the paper, listen to the news. I have been to skid row. I know first hand what is going on out there. So why would AA or any other association be different? Is the stock exchange a cult? Maybe the AMA? I'm sure people there have committed suicide and overdosed on whatever. Maybe martinis? What I am going to say this once for you to understand. You are attacking. Your own words. I call a spade a spade. And FACTNet is a dark, dark place. I hope you finally see the light and extricate yourself from this most horrible cult. Attack, attack, attack. What about 'live and let live', or isn't that a part of your vocabulary, either? Poor dear. You are cared about. | ||
| artwise_one Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 98 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
we_agnostics attacks, attacks, attacks. What about 'live and let live', or isn't that a part of your vocabulary, either? I know unconditional hate blah blah - more cult of aa.  | ||
| artwise_one Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 99 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
Oh dear...so immature! What do you expect from a religious cult like aa? Unconditional hate? Yes, of course! | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 181 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.130.93.117 |
Hey, art! Polly want a cracker? It seems like you parrot everything I say, anyway! Well, if you can't think of anything original to say, I feel flattered then! But like the mirror in your bathroom, I will be here to reflect back to you everything you project on me. Try not to get so wound up! Relax! Take it easy! It is highly recommended by the book, Alcoholics Anonymous: "We relax and take it easy. We don't struggle. We are often surprised how the right answers come after we have tried this for a while." (page 86) Spew and stew, art. On your other post you were quaking and faking! Give me something solid to go on, art! As it stands now, you are the 'Epitome of Negativity'! Repeating things is useless: You sound like a broken record! So, c'mon! Gimme something ORIGINAL to go on, since you have no experience in alcoholic matters. I understand: You have found an avenue on FACTNet where you can attempt to get your anger and frustration out. I don't see it working. So, I advise you to seek professional help for your problem! You won't find it here on FACTNet! Know you are loved (unconditionally), ~~~WE_AGNOSTICS | ||
| tgarden100 New member Username: tgarden100 Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 71.143.117.153 |
W A You are a vulture sitting around waiting for people to post so you can pounce on them with your hatred, I am going to talk to the administraters of fact net about your stalking and harrassment, maybe they will kick you off. | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 185 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.130.93.117 |
You found me, baby, I didn't find you! "Stalking"? You, too, tg?!? "Hatred"? Either you don't understand English, or you or delusional! Take that as an 'observation'. "Pounce"? Again, you found me, baby. I didn't find you! Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it!  You really take this and your Self WAY too seriously, LOL!! | ||
| actvthinkr New member Username: actvthinkr Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 69.170.85.57 |
In my opinion, AA is most definitely a cult, plus it labels people. No matter if you've been sober for 30 yrs, and still are, you're still an alcoholic in recovery. At least you can be an ex-con, or ex-smoker; but not the alcoholic, they will always 'need' the group, because they are alcoholics. Can't they give them something positive to call themselves once they've stopped being controlled by the behavior? Something to be proud of? instead, they have to say they are an "Alcoholic", it's not hard to slip back into the behavior if you're already denograted by the title anyway.. | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 189 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.130.93.117 |
Another uninformed individual. Before you make assumptions, actv, I am a MAN first, albeit a sober alcoholic MAN. What do you care what "label" I wear? If I choose that label, that is my choice! No one forces me to! Are you a registered voter? AHA! Then you must be affiliated, or 'labelled', a member of a political party. Even if you are and 'Independent', is that not a label? And do you believe that that somehow makes politics a cult (although it very well might be, LOL!)? So, you've been sober 30 years? Good for you! Your choice not to wear the "label". No big deal. Now, your say: "In my opinion, AA is most definitely a cult..." Evidence? Or "opinion"? Allow me to remind you that "opinions are like a**holes: Everybody has one!" In my "opinion", AA is NOT a cult. This is the discussion, but the 'Goebbels of FACTNet' are opposed to an open-minded, "free"-thinking discussion! actv, since you are a "new member", I implore you to spend your time more usefully rather than immerse blessed Self in the bubbling bilge of FACTNet! You will find nothing useful here, only hypocrisy and empty rhetoric. However, if that is your 'cup of tea', WELCOME! You are in for quite a ride! And your "opinions" are welcomed by me. That is where the "fun" (as FACTNet puts it) is! Have fun! Love, (unconditionally!), ~~~~~WE_AGNOSTICS | ||
| actvthinkr New member Username: actvthinkr Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 69.170.85.57 |
W.A. I agree whole heartedly, and knowing that opinions are very individual, I qualified mine as being just that. I cannot speak for anyone else but myself. Many words mean many different things to different people, my definition of a cult is different than yours, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm glad that you received what you needed from AA, and hopefully you are doing well. As you no doubt know, exchanging opinions can be a lot of fun, challenging and sometimes a perspective changer. Take care!  | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 190 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.130.93.117 |
Thanks for being understanding, actv! It's something I'm not used to on FACTNet! Read some of the posts by others, and I think you will see what I mean! I am a burr under some peoples' saddles! Take care! I care! (Genuinely and unconditionally!) ~~~W_A | ||
| actvthinkr New member Username: actvthinkr Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 69.170.85.57 |
W.A. I don't think it's so much that you're a burr, you post some challenging questions, and state your opinions as your experiences dictate. Generally speaking, some people (not all) cannot understand that we will all have different experiences. If you don't agree with someone's perception of said experience, so what? give reasons, and maybe someone can learn that their life isn't the only one out there. People do not want to hear that their way is not the only way - wars attest to that. Some also mistake their opinion as fact, and don't realize that once you think you've learned everything about anything, it's time to go back to school. Conversations can be fun, as long as you keep an open mind and be realistic about expectations (know you're not perfect or all knowing), and for goodness sakes people need to laugh at themselves. | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 201 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.130.93.117 |
That's great, actv! Thanks! You've just basically made my point. I speak (type) my experience. Others have their opinions, and we differ on that. However, read some of the posts in response to what I share, and tell me, honestly, if the FACTNet folks are as open-minded as they may have you believe. Some are real bomb-throwers, and it almost makes one's skin crawl to think that they are interacting with the public! Read the posts, and you'll see what I mean. "A mind is like a parachute: It only works when it is open." Good advice for all! Take care! Keep smilin'! (It's a jungle sometimes.....) Love, W_A | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 148 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
actvthinkr wrote: "In my opinion, AA is most definitely a cult, plus it labels people. No matter if you've been sober for 30 yrs, and still are, you're still an alcoholic in recovery". The hallmark of ANY Cult is that you can never graduate, AA is a cult, a life sentence. | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 229 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.130.93.117 |
So????? And your point is? I am not a member of a cult! I am not a prisoner! So, what is your point? (Just the same old rattle and prattle....BUT NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE! Just the same, tired, repetitious hot air. If this individual could offer anything useful, in his own words, he would. But he doesn't. Because he can't. So, rattle on, art, (until the wheels fall off!). With love, ~~~W_A | ||
| we_agnostics Intermediate Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 270 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.239.59.51 |
"Science and medicine have been trying to explain this 'phenomenon' for centuries. I guess they have been looking in the wrong places! FACTNet has ALL the answers!" | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 395 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 63.249.100.53 |
"A career criminal can set up a meeting, chair it and lure all maner of potential victims to harm." we_ag has been banned, so it's now safe to have an actual discussion on the topic of the cult of AA. * | ||
| joiseygirl New member Username: joiseygirl Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 65.54.154.24 |
artwise1 you know that aa is not a cult so why do keep saying tghat it is? the way you keep talking of weag is as though you two were lovers. so now you can have a discussion freely here. i know that you know that whay you say is untruthful. just because you have had a bad time in aa does not mean that it is unjustified. if what you say is true dont you think i would have realised this in my many years in aa? what have you to say? please do no be rude in yourr reply please. | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 447 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 63.249.97.140 |
AA IS a cult joiseygirl, and why do you continue to call me a lier and defend an abusive troll such as we_ag? Just because you belong to a cult and are afraid to admitt it, does not make it right. Go spend another 13 years of your life in the cult and you'll be too old to admitt that you are wrong joiseygirl. Just leave and go back to your meetings and when and if you decide to stop being rude yourself and stop being a troll then maybe tgarden might talk to you. As it stands everyone sees through your little game and would preffer that you take it elsewhere. We_ag was abusive and you are abusive been siding with the abuser, get it? I and others here are tired of your rude posts, go back to your meetings. Sometime joiseygirl instead of comming here to argue with everyone , why don't you actually try reading some of our posts and try to understand that AA IS actually a Cult. If you want people to stop being rude to you, stop calling them liers, you idiot. Joiseygirl, is pretty redundant, all she says is: "I agree with we_ag the sociopath, if you don't, you are mean & rude. Why don't you love aa brainwash the fanatic way I do, I don't understand, please, I demand that you inform me so I can attack you." A1 (Message edited by artwise one on October 05, 2006) | ||
| hugh_g_knutts Intermediate Member Username: hugh_g_knutts Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 76.235.116.174 |
REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT....... BTW.........YOU ARE A SOCIOPATH!!!!! | ||
| artwise_one Advanced Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 710 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.143.79.207 |
The step-training camps created by some steppers are called "Beginner-meetings" ...... The biggest fear that steppers have is someone at their meetings who can think critically. It scares the crap out of them. Realize that you have to sacrifice too many of your authentic beliefs behind a facade that might be popular and well-received in AA but will leave you without a net in the real world. Learning to deprogram from AA will help you see many of the blindspots that led people to chase these ideals in the past. Now some more good advice; don't say anything that could potentially be used against you 'at meeting level', to your 'sponser' or even socially within the group at any stage. Keep safe, stay away from AA. A1 | ||
| yohalmo New member Username: yohalmo Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 76.235.116.174 |
Training camps? This guy really is out there! Call the men in white coats! What a nut case! |
