| Author | Message | ||
     cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
LDS have defended the LDS Church on the Factnet blogs (which is in fact, a Christian cult and therefore indefensible). Christians who frequent here have been asked why they "attack" the Mormon Church. Good question. The answer is -- because the Mormon Church attacked my faith (Christianity) first. We frequent this forum, and other dissuasions, because we are defending our faith. Christians are called to defend the faith, contend for the faith and tell the truth of the gospel. We are commanded to do so: John 1:3, Jude 1:1. That is why Christians do what we do here (the scriptures listed is by no means a comprehensive list of reasons). To completely demolish the untrue notion that the LDS Church has not attacked Christianity nor called itself the one true church, the only way to salvation, the only true Christian religious organization, Smith the only way to God's truth and heaven -- here are some interesting quotes: Does Joseph Smith Jr. play a role in our salvation? •Joseph Fielding Smith said: [There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190). •Brigham Young stated: "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289). •Brigham Young also declared, "he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312). •President George Q. Cannon said: "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142). Can salvation can come only through the LDS Church? •Mormon scriptures claim that the LDS church is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants, 1:30). •Joseph Smith stated: "This [the LDS] Church...is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30). •President Ezra Taft Benson said: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165). •Bruce McConkie stated: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670). •Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119). Statements by Mormon Leaders about Christian churches (made by many of the LDS Prophet-Presidents): •Joseph Smith stated that God told him: "they [other churches] were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:19). •Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270). •Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119). •Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230). •Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255). •Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172). •President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127). •James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182). •President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282). •More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316). •President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324). •President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196). copyright © 1995-2005 Leadership U. All rights reserved. Updated: 13 July 2002 http://www.leaderu.com/ specific link to article: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/michaeldavis/docs/mormonism/onlytrue.html IF YOUR SEARCH IS FOR THE JESUS CHRIST WHO CAN SAVE YOUR SOUL, HE CAN NOT BE FOUND IN MORMONISM. If you have any questions about the Biblical Jesus who loves you please visit the link below and use the e-mail contact. In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 312 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
cjv: Twisted logic used by tyrants, "I will pretend you attack me so I can excuse attacking you" - is that not what our politicians say to excuse their attacks when they are not really justified? You use, in your own little way, what you find you want to believe in to justify any attack you can make - you are dishonest, as you prtend that you examine evidence impartially, and "come up" with proof of what we believe. You do not place your trust in Christ alone, before him comes any crony that helps you whine and excuse an attack on my faith - what a sham of a Christian you are, what a cheek you have in claiming to be his follower. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 63.191.129.30 |
Joesdad did you read what your leaders said above? Now who hAS THE TWISTED LOGIC? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
joesdad does have a valid point. Mormons don't have to believe anything past leaders wrote because they have the current prophet. Therefore, in his eyes as a good mormon, everything ever written by mormons could be lies and it wouldn't make one bit of difference. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
joesdad is the ultimate example of this little boy who says "but President Hinkley, I don't like going around in circles." Pres. Hinkley responds lovingly, "Shut up, or I'll nail your other foot to the floor." | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 316 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Ah, I see, you expect me to admit that each of you, with your own version of Christianity, has beliefs that represent the truth as Christ intended, yet you will all differ, so logically as you will all disagree, you MUST at some stage be willing to attack those beliefs to defend your own. It is easy for you to side with each other as you have a common cause - but you are not united - your varied beliefs with questionable sources will out you all in the end. As of course none of you represent TRUE Christanity, any questioning of you or your beliefs cannot be claimed to be of Christianity itself - you are splinters of true Christinity and seperate yurself from it, all the while moving further from the truth in each of your incarnations until finally finding yourselves so far from the truth you cannot recognise it. You just sup from the cup of false doctrine found on your friendly anti-LDS sites. Like Wilford Woodruff said in the last quote, you are so far from the truth, the dark ages would be preferable to the corrupt Christianity you rely on and feed to others. GC: I am glad that you remain consistent in your level and standard of comment - like a gummy toothless old bear.  | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 157 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.18 |
 Not doing too badly for a gummy toothless old bear, am I? Thanks for the description but your charm will never outshine your ignorance. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Did Joesdad just use a Quote from Wilford Woodruff? So he gets to pick and choose as he says we can't. Well you know ole Wilford got his wish a gospel from somewhere Dark. We are united in our essential beleifs,to me their is no doubt of that. We defend and contend for the gospel of Christ. Jude 3 Love Ya Joe | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.215.204 |
Joesdad, Steelsword, et alii, The Anglical Evangelical scholar, J. I. Packer who has studied and worked with RC says that RCC and Evangelicals agree in 90% of their doctrines, 5% is a matter of wording, and the remanders are areas of true disagreement. Since the Community of Christ, the former Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints Church is Trinitarian, has opened the priesthood to both gender, has never accepted the doctrine of progression, it sounds like there is more difference among those who claim to be JS spiritual hiers than historic Christians. (If my summary of the beliefs of the Community of Christ is incorrect, please correct me.) EGK | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 547 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
egk: The various Protestant cults disagree with each other on some key doctrines and many practices and policies. Some consider baptism an unnecessary, chose-or-not ritual, others require it. Some ordain homosexuals, others claim that God hates homosexuals. The RLDS church was formed over a decade after the main body of the Church arrived in Utah. They have never had the Temple ordinances, for instance, though they were handed down from Joseph to the Quorum of the Twelve prior to the martyrdom. The RLDS doctrines held that their prophets must be direct decendents, until one leader only had daughters, and that ended that. Somewhere in there, they began ordaining women. The RLDS also uses the Cross in their symbology, though it was not used in the LDS church. It seems to many of us that the RLDS is migrating toward the Protestant world. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 320 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: You quote who and how you want - as you do - only in an attempt to prove your incorrect statements - I have no objection to you quoting anyone, so long as it's done honestly, in context and you actually have an idea of what the quote means. Otherwise you are just another one copying things you don't understand to prove someting you don't know about - like the rest of them. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 369 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
cjv Christians who frequent here have been asked why they "attack" the Mormon Church. Good question. The answer is -- because the Mormon Church attacked my faith (Christianity) first. Doesn't your religion say something about "turning the other cheek"? | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 555 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Yaakov: It's not a matter of defense, it's a matter of bigotry. The "mainstream" Christians in here don't even believe the same doctrines amongst themselves. They focus on us because the differences between their version of Christianity and my version of Christianity are greater than between themselves. None has a leg to stand on -- they have faith without proof, just as I have faith without proof. They follow doctrines mostly inherited from the Roman Catholics, yet don't consider Catholicism truly Christian either! They aren't interested in turning the other cheek, only in finding some excuse for believing themselves superior. It must really grate on them to know that they are unworthy of entering the temple of a church which they attack! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 166 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.15 |
yaakov, I have never said I attack, I don't need to attack. I don't speak because I have been attacked (except when the attack tickles my funny-bone). I speak on this subject in the hopes that some will be released from idotatry and acknowledge the true God of the Holy Bible. Please don't stereotype my intentions. Joesdad always claims christians take mormon teachings out of context, yet seldom puts them 'in context'. His is an empty defence. I see no love of God from him or solopilot, only rhetoric of 'I'm right, you're wrong and I WILL have the last word.' Let them have the last word here, only God will have the last word in the long run. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
It really grates on us that we can't enter the temple because we are unworthy. I have ask Joesdad & solo, where in biblical scriptures it said only worthy people went to the temple. If that were the case them animals were dying for nothing. Solo , I now being in Christ,could care less about your Mormon/Masonic Temple,So beleive me ,when i say the temple has no more meaning in my life. I used to sit in the same Chair you and joesdad did & I had some pretty cool blinders at the time, i just finally decided to take them off. I have a mormon Family ,I love very much,& and what i post here, I do not post lightly. I honestly believe The Lds Preach a diffrent Gospel, & now being In Christ,I will defend his Gospel untill I die. My cousin for the past 2 years has always said you will come back , I know it. I think he is beginning to understand that is not true. I am on fire For JESUS, The only salvation I need. Do I need to bear you anymore testimony? If the Lds have nothing that it is ashamed of, let all of it be available to anyone who inquires,& let them consider for themselves if the things which are said are true. If cjv posted above and gave the article & page ,whould you please exsplain each in context , as you say, & give it you best missionary shot as to how you see it. I don't see as an attack on the Lds , but as to refute things that go agaist holy scriptures. It's all about the CROSS & the SACRIFICE OF THE SAVIOR !! | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 370 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
solopilot It's not a matter of defense, it's a matter of bigotry. Do you really think the posts are that bad? Bigotry is defined as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to their prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged, often engaging these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner. I have sparred with people online about religious beliefs and only a very few of them would I call bigots. I am reading most of what is posted here and it seems like normal religious dialogue to me. Simply having differences of belief is not bigotry. They aren't interested in turning the other cheek, only in finding some excuse for believing themselves superior. It must really grate on them to know that they are unworthy of entering the temple of a church which they attack! godchild says I speak on this subject in the hopes that some will be released from idotatry and acknowledge the true God of the Holy Bible Solopilot, I see that both you and godchild make claims of “I’m right and you’re wrong”. Is it really so important that you need someone else to agree that you are right? How do someone else’s beliefs affect your beliefs? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 175 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.250 |
I say the Holy Bible is correct, and the book of mormon is fiction, written by an immature, small time crook who made a practice of using a seerstone to treasure hunt, and who incorrectly translated an egyptian burial papyri as the Book of Abraham, and stuck his head in a hat as witnessed not only by his wife but also his associates to translate the book of mormon. And this is just the tip of the mormon melting iceberg. | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 153 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.222.132 |
Solopilot, Yes, there are difference in Protestant sects and there are difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. There are major points of agreement. The points of agreement include the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, salvation by grace alone through Jesus, Jesus as the only mediator between God and man, and the closure of revelation. (The last point is that no new truths can be revealed until Jesus' second coming.) You claim that are differences are proof that what we (the historic Churches) is not true Christianity. It appears to me, and others, that the differences between the historic Churches is not as great as the differences between the two main groups arising from the movement started by JS, LDS and RLDS. (As a matter of fact, except for the closure of revelation, the RLDS seems to agree with most of Historic Christianity.) Using your logic, there is no proof that the Churches arising from JS have the true Christian faith. EGK | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.222.132 |
Solopilot: BTW I asked a question several weeks ago that was not answered. I'll restate it. You contend that the ruling to exclude Blacks from the Mormon priesthood was inspired because the US was not ready for Blacks in the priesthood. My question how do you know that the Protestant groups which restricted Black pastors to only Black Churches were not inspired by God also? EGK | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 558 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Steel: The Bible doesn't say that anything was ever done with the offerings which were burnt in the Temple. That must mean that all that scorched meat piled up and was never moved. Some things are not secret but are sacred, and one good reason is that people like you will ridicule them. Yaakov: Many of the posts ARE that bad, which is why I don't even read any post from GC anymore. No, I didn't come here to prove that my beliefs were right. I came here to counter the outright lies which were being said about what I believe. You have seen many times which I have said that we are here to live by faith (or without it), and that NONE of us has any proof of what we say is true . . .at which point the anti-Mormons begin frothing at the mouth, but never offer any proof that what they believe is any more true than what I believe. Other people's beliefs DON'T affect my beliefs. egk: The various doctrines which you claim that you and the Protestant cults share were codified hundreds of years after the Crucifixion, and are not interpreted in the same way, which is why it's so amusing to watch the bickering between "true" Christians. Uh . . .egk . . ? NONE of us has proof. Did you miss the times I've said that this is why God let errors crop up in the Bible . . ? Sorry, I missed your question. The tradition of white and black was a relic of slavery. It wouldn't do to have Protestant slaves rubbing elbows with Protestant masters. When slavery ended, this tradition continued. The first thing which counted when most Protestant congregations hired a preacher was not his spirituality, his eloquence or his knowledge of Christian doctrine, it was his COLOR. Black could only preach to black, kanaka only to kanaka, Asian only to Asian -- not only in the South, but all over the United States. This is no longer universally true, but there are still a lot more white preachers looking out at black faces than black preachers looking out at white faces. Consider the hideous implications of an "Abyssinian" Baptist Church. The LDS church never had one set of preachers for whites and one for blacks. White Mormons never owned black Mormons. We have never segregated our wards or branches by color, though we do have special wards which can be attended by members who choose to attend them. There are wards for single members, wards for students at places like BYUH and BYU, wards for the deaf or those who prefer other languages (such as Tagalog). One criticism levelled at the Church in the deep South during the last century was that we didn't keep white and black separate. What happened in the South is actually better than it was in Hawaii, where the only Protestant preachers were whites until just a little over a century ago. Kanaka were not considered good enough to speak in church, even to kanaka. Care to guess which Christian church first had kanaka as leaders? And when? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 180 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.211 |
In the mormon church which is ready to celebrate 200 years, how many blacks are on the council of the twelve? How many have been prophets? How many seventies? (in the United States, not in countries where there are no white mormons to take these leadership positions) mormons take a position that God, seeing there was racism in the world, gave a revelation to one of the mormon prophets saying, "Yes, man is right. Don't let blacks hold the priesthood." (which in mormonism is a requirement for exaltation) The problem with this explanation by mormons is their bom which they consider scripture (another testimony of Jesus Christ) which was written in stone before Christ was born, is completely and continually rascist. So the argument is completely foolish. mormons can stop trying to blame 'priestcrafting protestants' for their rascist history. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.211 |
yaakov, sp is unable to give a truthful answer to your question as he says 'other people's beliefs don't affect his beliefs'. Obviously, he believes what js and by and the rest of the false prophets taught, which more current falseprophets agree were false as they continually delete such false teachings from their books in order to appease people who refuse to accept the human notions js and by wanted. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.140 |
Solo, here is a good site for you and Joe: http://www.strangite.org/Offering.htm I guess the way they interpret Joseph , Christ sacrifice was not good enough either. And Notice they are the ORIGINAL CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS. What do you make of their claim? Jo & Sp Don't you Just want to offer up some of your flock. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 340 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Digging deep to the bottom of your barrel now? I am sure when it comes to sacrifices, you will be offering up your new found friends form this site. I watch in interest. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.140 |
Read this interesting site: http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 341 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Interesting, but what relevance it that here? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 74 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.140 |
I was just wandering what your take on the strangites was & where do they Go wrong from you TRUE CHURCH. You seem to be so defensive lately? That was a point yak would probably Make, He is the Jewish Practishner on this site. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 342 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: They went wrong the moment they decided they could decide the Presidency of the Church, and attempted to circumvent God in the process. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 185 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.138 |
steelsword, Both of those sights are very informative. Thanks. The mormon temples are not used for 'sacrifice' (strangely). According to 'lds answers questions', sacred ordinances are available for only worthy members and makes it possible to return to the presence of God. Nothing in this statement about 'sacrifice' that ancient temples were used for. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 375 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
godchild I was disappointed by your post. First, you are claim to speak for another person, second, you accuse him of lying and third you totally misunderstood the question that I asked solopilot. He understood it and answered. I know you can do better than this. yaakov, sp is unable to give a truthful answer to your question as he says 'other people's beliefs don't affect his beliefs'. Obviously, he believes what js and by and the rest of the false prophets taught, which more current falseprophets agree were false as they continually delete such false teachings from their books in order to appease people who refuse to accept the human notions js and by wanted. But, I do have a follow up question for you, godchild. In the past, several people have gotten upset with me when I typed your god’s name with a little j. However, I see that you refer to Solopilot’s holy beings with un-capitalized letters. Does this mean that I can type your god’s name as “jebus” or “jesus” since you do the same to the Mormons? | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 376 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
steelsword I agree with godchild, that is a good website, but it has no relevance to the discussions here. We are discussing Mormonism, not Judaism. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
yaakof, In answer to your question -- the Bible tells us if we are personally offended, trespassed against, etc. we are to turn the other cheek. However, the Bible also commands that Christians contend for and defend our faith as well as tell the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Mormonism not only lies about my faith, and lies about the gospel and Jesus Christ -- the very cornerstone of the Christan faith -- but it claims that it is the only true organization of my faith. Lies. I do not become personally offended when someone attacks my faith, I merely defend it -- as Christians are commanded to do in the Bible. It is terribly offensive that this organization continues to make the claims that it does and attacks my faith. However, I'm not offended on a personal level. Say you are African American. If an organization came along and said, "We are the only TRUE African Americans. We kill small babies, we eat them after we kills them and furthermore, we are the only pure black bloodline. Therefore, all others who call themselves black or African American aren't really black -- they're imposters." If you were black, wouldn't you say, "HEY DUDE! Wait a minute!! I'm black, and I don't know what you're saying, but blacks don't eat babies that we've killed, and that's nonsense about having to have a 'pure' bloodline to be black! You misrepresent me and my ethnic group. You are telling lies about black people and I am here to set the record straight!" This is similar to what Mormons have done. They come along in the 1800's and not only attack my faith which has endured for over 2000 years, but then they try to take the PLACE of my faith by claiming to be the only true representation of my faith. That's a bunch of bunk and no matter how much money this church manages to steal and bully out of it's members and use to promote this evil fantasy, I for one will not tolerate such lies. While there are still billions of Christan's on this planet, we will expose the charlatans and impostor organizations that attempt to make claim to my faith when the organization isn't Christian at all! It is what we are supposed to do. Jesus did it, Paul did it -- the Bible commands the rest of the Christian world to do it! It just makes sense after all if someone or something (an organization) slanders and lies about the most important thing in the world -- a Christian's faith, then a Christain must defend it. It's the least we should do! In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 76 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Yaakov, we were discussing animal sacrifice, or temple practices. Solo says the bible doesn't say what the bible does to with the animals after they were burnt. I thought this might help him. No disrespect to you, We as christian beleive that Christ is the Temple, & he was the final Sacrifice, Granted their will be a temple built in Jeruselem before his return. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
LOL Cjv, you didn’t have to make up the African example. Everything you described that Mormons have done to Christians is what Christians have been doing to Judaism for hundreds of years. For example: Mormonism not only lies about my faith, and lies about the gospel and Jesus Christ -- the very cornerstone of the Christan faith -- but it claims that it is the only true organization of my faith. Lies. Christianity not only lies about my faith, and lies about the Tanakh and Talmud, but it claims that the only true Jew is a Christian. I could go on in this vein through every statement you made. However, yeah, I understand your POV, you read something incorrect about your beliefs and it’s natural to want to correct it. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Well yaakov, your implication is that because I'm a Christian, I hate Jews and lie about their faith. First of all -- true Christians would never, ever be hateful towards Jews. They are the bloodline to Christ Jesus. If there are Christians or people who call themselves Christian, who are hateful to ANY race, color or creed, than they are either 1) Not acting like a Christian because they do not follow what is taught about this in the Bible or 2) They're not really Christians at all, they just say they are (there's a lot more to being a Christian than giving it lip service). Jesus was a Jew, and I love no other being on earth or heaven as much as I love my Lord Jesus Christ. He is my life. Without Him, I do not have life. So please save your Christians-are-Jew-haters for someone who makes a terrible and racist statement about Jews. Don't play that game with me. I am a total supporter of Israel and Jewish causes and so are NUMEROUS Christians and Christian organizations. Take your beef with those who persecute Jews elsewhere. It won't fly here. Not with me. Not with this former New Yorker who has been mistaken for a Jew all of her life and who took that as a compliment. Not the daughter with a mother who was brought up on Delaney Street where Jews and Italians mixed until there was little distinction between the two cultures. When I lived in Germany for three years in the early 1980's, because I look so Jewish sometimes, I'd never know when, I was treated like trash in the streets. The German's at times thought I was Jewish and made no bones about not being very pleased I was there, at their markt platz, doing my shopping. Not always, but it happened often enough that sometimes I'd go home in tears. At first I hated Germany because I knew they hated me in return because they thought I was a Jew. I hated the fact that IT SHOULDN'T MATTER WHETHER I WAS JEWISH OR NOT. But apparently, at that time, it did. An Army officer (not a Christian BTW) once said to my husband (also an Army officer), "Man! For a minute there, I thought your wife was a HEB!" That Army Officer was never welcomed in my home again after making such a despicable comment. And furthermore -- you completely ignored the point and threw up your All-those-nasty-Christians-hate-me-because-I'm-a- Jew straw man. How about addressing the point made rather than throwing out false and baseless accusations? Focus, answer the question. I'll repeat it for you in case you were too blinded by YOUR obvious stereotyping and prejudice towards Christians to catch it the first time: IF SOMEONE MISREPRESENTED YOU OR YOUR FAITH, WOULDN'T YOU DEFEND IT???? Try to answer the question this time. In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Ok, as my kids would say: MY BAD. I see in my zeal to spank you because you made a prejudice snide comment about Christians I neglected to see your full answer. I see you did answer the question. My sincere apologies. So you DO see the point -- that if someone misrepresented you or your faith, you'd probably correct them, and you'd probably correct them and take a stand on the issue, right? Again, apologies are due you -- you did answer the question and in my effort to swiftly respond, I missed it. You were focused, you did answer. I apparently was the one not focused. But I'm not sorry about the spanking. Just want to be clear. In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 189 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.185 |
yaakov, I don't capitalize satan either. I will not pretend to have any respect for the mormon church and what it stands for. And I have never said a word against Jews or the Talmud. As for the only true Jews being christian, ignorant people say ignorant things. Please don't stereotype all christians. I am a child of God by adoption, and have no desire to become a Jew. I do not spell God to offend you. Have you ever read the books by Corrie Ten Boom? Not all christians hate Jews. No more than all whites hate blacks, or asians, or palestinians, or mexicans. I have always been inspired by true stories of the Holacaust and try to lead my life without the sick kind of hate that would cause the evil people do to others. I am a blunt person in my speech. That is my personality. I believe it is hypocritical to mince words. I don't think people who know me consider me a mean-spirited person, and if I unintentionally cause pain, I am always willing to apologise and try to make amends. Some people appreciate it, some don't. Personally, I believe jd and sp insult their church by many of their comments. No one is forced to read anything I write. Hopefully the warnings will be sufficient for people to do further inquiry. Apparently, these two have and I am very sorry for them. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 351 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
cjv: Just wondering how often you fail to read it all, how often you just get the juicy bits out, and forget to read the rest = reaction due to ignorance. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 352 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
cjv: Another thing, you claim that I attack your faith, how? You come here attacking mine - your complaint seems a little backward. If you don't like the heat, get off the thread! I can't understand how you can go from your obviously disturbing experiences at being mistreated because of bigotry, to being a blatant bigot in your own right - there is something wrong there. You need to step back from your clearly wrong view of what I believe, and start again. I'm talking about the basic simple ABC of Mormonism, you just have it wrong, and think we believe stuff we don't - knowing that (and I've said that to you before) you then choose to continue to be wrong - again, something wrong there. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 380 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
cjv I’m really sorry that I got you upset. When I said “Christians”, I threw too broad a net. I meant some Christian posters on this site, not the entire religion. All I meant to say were those things that I see people saying that Mormons have done to Christianity are some of the same things that Christianity has done to Judaism. It was just a comparative observation. So you DO see the point -- that if someone misrepresented you or your faith, you'd probably correct them, and you'd probably correct them and take a stand on the issue, right? Yes and no, I have done both here. For me personally, it depends on the tone, content, direction, and nature of the discussions. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 565 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Steel: The Strangites are to Mormonism what the Baptists are to Catholicism. In each case, the offshoot followed charismatic leadership then claimed to be the root, not the branch. Yaakov: I think you misunderstand slightly. Joseph Smith is not a "holy being," he was just a prophet. GC is free to disrespect him all she likes, it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings because we don't worship him. As far as GC putting words in people's mouths, that's been happening since pretty much the time she arrived here. It's the only way that she can "win" an argument. Steel: I looked through the page, didn't see anything pertinent to what the Bible says they did with the burnt offerings. If you have a Bible verse to explain it, please provide that (I'm curious). cjv: Being black isn't a choice. Being black isn't a religion. It's not a belief system. It's genetics. And we DO have people who claim to speak for all blacks (at least all of those in America), such as Jesse Jackson, a Protestant preacher who is a proven bigot, adulterer and someone who certainly doesn't speak for ME! Why was it "despicable" for that Army officer to say that you looked like you were Jewish? Is that a bad thing? It looks like it mattered to YOU, not just the Germans! I once had a (Jewish) friend ask me how I had known about something. When I commented that I was observant, he looked curiously at me and said "Funny, you don't look Jewish!" (Perhaps I should mention that I'm part black, part kanaka, part native American and part white). Yes, you are here misrepresenting my faith, and I am defending it. Joe: It is our EXISTANCE which offends cjv. Like those people who got so upset about the thought that someone was desecrating the Koran that they rioted, cjv's world is on its side because people who aren't just like her say that we are Christian. yaakov (again): Thank you for clarifying that -- I am a Christian, after all. Everyone, I will be away this weekend and possibly for a couple of weeks, so don't take that to mean anything but being away from the computer. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 357 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
SP: me too, got a Bank Holiday here so I'll be enjoying the Kids & partaking in some sun worshipping (we grab the little we get here) - hope you enjoy your time away - hope the health keeps on the up! I'm sure there will be lots of mouse droppings on our return, if you get my meaning | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Solo -- why what that Army Officer said was so despicable was because he called me a "Heb" which is a derogatory term for a Jew. You should read a bit more carefully as well before you spout off. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 95 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
joe -- Anyone can make a mistake. Anyone can be wrong. The difference between us is, unlike you (from what I've seen on these blogs) when you're wrong -- and that has happened time and time again -- you never admit it. When I miss something, if I catch it or it's called to my attention -- as it happened here, I accept the fact that I messed up. I even apologize. You have been rude, obnoxious, nasty, vile and a lot of other impolite things on these boards. Not one time, even when you are caught publicly and proven to be wrong -- you just disappear from that thread. You won't admit you're wrong. And that's a shame, because you are so, so very wrong about being in a Christian organization. And that could mean, if you don't denounce the evil things Mormonism teaches -- that you could take your last breath not know the Jesus who can save your soul. I hope that's not the case. But I can tell you this -- if you only know the Jesus of Mormonism -- you don't know Jesus -- and I pray someday you'll know Him because He's the ONLY Way TRUTH and LIFE. In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.144 |
Solo , it said the sacrifices were eaten, either by the Preist himself or their family. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
P.S. -- Regarding me attacking your faith (Mormonism). Sheesh joe -- are we still going to play that game again? I've already posted the proof that Mormonism attacked my (and all Christian's) faith first. It's in THIS THREAD. But since I'm beginning to become convinced you have short term memory issues: Here's that link for you: http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=158381#POST158381 I wasn't BORN when most of those hateful statements about my faith were made by LDS leadership joe. They started it, you perpetuate the attacks by believing the things Mormonism teaches. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
solo -- You totally missed my point regarding what I was trying to illustrate here. What difference does it make that blacks "don't have a choice" to be black? That is irrelevant to the point. The point is -- and I'll try another illustration. BTW: Please forgive the use of Judaism yaakov, but I used this with a Jewish radio station owner when we lived in Florida. He was allowing LDS ads to run on his station. I asked him to consider stopping the ads. When I used a version of the following illustration, he pulled them. I said to him, "What if a religious group came along in the 1800's and began saying that they were the ONLY true Jewish organization? What if they called themselves the Hebrewlites? What if they said they believed in multiple gods, the god of thunder, the god of lightening and various other gods. What if they said that all the Jewish books of the Bible were not complete -- but when you add the books of George Lucas' Star Wars, that made Judaism complete? What if they said the Hebrewlites were the ONLY true Jewish group since the Moses and that ALL the other Jewish groups were the "Whore of Babylon?" I asked him, "Wouldn't you say, 'Hey, you couldn't be a Jewish organization! Jews don't believe that garbage! It's utter nonsense! Every Jew knows that Star Wars has nothing to do with God or the Bible and that there is only ONE God! You are TOTALLY misrepresenting my faith!'" I told him that's EXACTLY what Mormonism has done with MY FAITH. They have completely distorted and misrepresented my faith. They have their nice-nice TV/Radio commercials telling you about Jesus Christ, but what they don't tell you is that they believe in not only a bunch of gods, Jesus being just one of them -- a man in "progression" to become a god -- but that they themselves can become gods someday -- among other blasphemous beliefs that Christians do not in any way believe. I told him they misrepresent MY faith and it is highly offensive to Christians when the LDS Church parades itself as the perfect and only "true" Christan Church. He pulled the ads. And if you solo, believe only in the Mormon Jesus, than you don't know Jesus. Therefore, you couldn't be a Christian. As the Bible tells us and as I have continually posted here -- Jesus said -- it takes more than SAYING it, giving yourself titles or even working wonderful good works in His Name to truly be one of His. Being a Christian takes far more than naming an organization you belong to after Jesus. The Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of Historical, Orthodox Christianity are not the same. ONE has to be wrong. I doubt a religion founded in 1800 suddenly found the "true" Jesus. I doubt it. It's either one or the other. Jews don't believe in multiple gods because the God of the OT said there aren't any other gods except HIM. Your religion believes like other cults do, but not like other Christians do. It's ludicrous that we would even have this discussion. Someone trying to tell me what Christians should believe because they come from the only "true" Christian organization -- when this organization isn't even Christian! Think about it solo as you go away for the weekend. And I have no idea what you were sick from -- I have only caught on to the fact that you were sick and people here prayed for you. I pray that you will be well physically and back to full health. I also pray that you will open your mind and consider the Jesus of the Bible, because He can't be found in Mormon teachings. I pray that the scales will be removed from your eyes. Read below what Jesus said about profession without faith: Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
yaakov, Don't let the LDS here fool you. Just like when I was in the cult I was in, I said, "We don't worship Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille [founder of the cult The Way International], he's just the teacher who received revelation from God." I didn't revere him -- that's probably why I was never able to fit in very well. But I watched others totally worship him and I saw this in New York, Kansas, Florida and L.A. (where we lived as an Army family) -- so no one can tell me, "Oh, maybe some people acted like he was 'god' but most of us don't believe that." Oh yes they did. He was a total, perfect human conduit of God to all Wayers -- and we were never, ever to question him or anything he ever said. The MINUTE I did, I was not only called on the carpet, but told I was filled with devil spirits. LDS here may say they don't consider Smith -- the founder of Mormonism to be "holy" but the Mormon Church teaches that they can't get to heaven without him. So therein lies the rub. No "regular" man on earth stands between your ability to get into or stay out of heaven. While Smith is not actually called the WORDS holy -- he's holy and perfect and they can not question anything he taught and the LDS can not in any way question any of their current "prophets." My daughters elementary school best friend was Mormon. She'd go to this endlessly long Sunday "service" and one day, she came directly to our home. She had piles and piles of papers she got from that Sunday to include work papers and art work etc. I looked at every one. I'm talking about a notebook type of thickness. On almost every single page was something about Smith. Here she is, it's Sunday, a Christians day of worship, and I found only ONE thing, one paper and on it ONE reference to Jesus Christ and one thing on another paper with reference to God. The rest was all about Joseph Smith, and the "sacred" books Joseph Smith wrote yadda, yadda, yadda. I'm not making this up or exaggerating. I was absolutely astounded. This kid spent that entire day, and probably all her young life being brainwashed about the supposed teachings of this false prophet. How sad is that! And from the time the kid can talk, the kid has to stand up and recite in front of their church their "testimony" -- as their parent whispers it into their ear: "I TESTIFY TO YOU, I KNOW THE BOOK OF MORMON IS TRUE. I KNOW JOSEPH SMITH WAS A PROPHET OF GOD. I KNOW THE MORMON CHURCH IS TRUE." So where is their testimony of GOD in all of that??? It's so sad, and what's really sad is that they ram this down the throats of children and scare them into believing if they leave the Mormon Church, they will truly burn in hell and that their soul can not be saved. Smacks of a cult to me! And that's why it's not bigotry to call a Church that is attempting to masquerade as a Church of my faith what it is, a cult. It's not a Christian organization, it's a cult. Just like there are Jewish cults, and Islamic cults, the Mormon Church is a Christian cult. And while you sort of hedged when you answered whether or not you agreed with my illustration, did the second illustration help in any way for you? I'm not saying that Buddhists are cult members, nor am I saying that Hindu's are cult members. The Mormon Church can worship purple puppies and call them holy, I don't give a ca-ca. But when they worship purple puppies and call themselves Christian, that's when I'm going to stand up for my faith and speak out. Follow me? Thanks for accepting my apology BTW. I was out of line and I'm sorry for it. I got upset, but don't worry -- if you can tell -- the LDS get fairly nasty at times. I think one just told me to "get my head out of my Pastor's butt." Charming. I usually don't react. I'm used to attacks by cult members. I've been actively in cult ministry for over ten years. But man -- I almost feel as if I'm part Jewish for crying out loud -- and then for you to tell me my faith perpetuates Jewish hatred -- and that would make me as a Christian do the same -- I felt the blood rush to my face. My mother's own family -- their own family that lived with them in the same building on Delancy Street, turned their backs on my mother and grandmother because my grandfather was institutionalized with depression. It was quite a stigma in those days. To save the nickel my grandmother would have used for the New York city bus, she walked to work. But that meant she had to leave hours before my mother picked up the bus for school. My Mom was too afraid to stay in the apartment by herself, so she'd sit out on the front porch steps waiting for the bus. No shelter, it would sometimes be absolutely freezing, but she'd wait for hours. The "nice Jewish lady" (as my grandmother would say) came to their apartment one day and told my grandmother she saw Corrinne sitting on the stoop so early in the morning and asked her why. After my Gramma told her, she said to have my Mom come to their apartment since she was already up and about when Gramma left, and she'd have her slip into bed with her daughter and get them both ready for school. She never accepted anything from my Gramma for it. She just did it. It was that story that was told to me, and many other stories about Delancy street that endeared God's Chosen people He made a covenant with to me, and even more so when I began to read the Bible. BUT, aside from my PERSONAL affection for Jews -- I'm telling you right now -- the New Testament for Christians combined with what Christians include as the Old Testament shows us that we are NOT being good Christians if we are ugly or hateful to any race no less Jews. And I always found it UTTERLY RIDICULOUS for these cults go into auto-pilot and act hateful towards Jews and even Catholics -- the Mormon Church is no exception -- when JESUS WAS A JEW and so was his mother and father and SO ON. So was Pau!!! I mean, WHAT ARE THEY THINKING? Do they just choose to IGNORE those parts of the Bible? Now you watch -- some LDS are going to go ballistic and yell and shout that the Mormon Church wasn't ever nasty towards Jews and I'll pull out some LDS leadership quotes from their OWN LDS MATERIALS and then they'll just ignore that and sometime later re-deny those charges if they ever come up again. As if it was never proven that this is true. Watch. Happens all the time here. The one that has followed me was that Brigham Young taught that Adam was "God the Father of us all." I was told I was lying, and an out and out insane woman for saying such a thing. Then I post not once, not twice but several times quotes from Brigham Young himself from LDS materials and LDS books, who said these things -- and silence from the LDS. Only for them to call me a liar again later on some other thread when I repeat the looney things this Mormon "prophet" said. Then I ask, well -- what do you have to say about Brigham Young saying these things? Not an answer, not one time -- although I repeated that question over and over. They are in denial. Just as I was when I was in the cult I was in. It reminds me of that Billy Preston song..."Will it go 'round in circles..." I can hear it now... P.S. -- I know you might be thinking -- weeellll -- the Christian church has a spotty record when it comes to relations with Israel and Jews. I agree. However, the distinction between Christians and Mormons is that we Christians look back on those leaders who did that and say, THEY WERE WRONG, they did not speak for God nor did they speak for what it truely says in the Bible that Christians should do. Mormons still call them prophets. Sorry for the length of this!! (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 381 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
cjv I said to him, "What if a religious group came along in the 1800's and began saying that they were the ONLY true Jewish organization? …What if they said that all the Jewish books of the Bible were not complete -- but when you add the books of George Lucas' Star Wars, that made Judaism complete? Thanks cjv, your statements have helped to crystallize some of my thoughts. The Jews for jesus cult does some of what you describe above. Those ads can indeed be pulled because they purport to state what Jews believe. It is when a group tells other people “This is what this group believes” that crosses the line. Those are the posts that I respond to. So, if a Mormon says “Christianity believes this or that”, then yes, you should respond and defend your faith. However, if a Mormon says “My religion teaches this…”, then we shouldn’t regard it as an attack. They are just explaining their own beliefs. They started it, you perpetuate the attacks by believing the things Mormonism teaches. I have no problem when a group states their own beliefs. So, if Jews for jebus state “We believe this…” and “We believe that…”, then I have no problem with it. This is the difference that I was failing to state previous. I don’t respond to posts when Christians state their own beliefs, yall can believe whatever you want to believe. But I do respond to posts when Christians state what Jewish beliefs are. However, your quote above states that you get upset by a person that simply holds Mormon beliefs. A person that is just being a Mormon, you automatically consider an attack on your faith. P.S. Shabbat is coming up. See yall later. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 102 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
However, your quote above states that you get upset by a person that simply holds Mormon beliefs. A person that is just being a Mormon, you automatically consider an attack on your faith. No yaakov -- I don't get upset just because they worship differently and the way they do. I get upset when they say they are Christian and demand that they are the only true Christian Church and what they believe is what Christians believe. Just like what you said regarding the Jews for Jesus. Worship as you will, Mormons can worship any way they'd like I don't care. But don't profane my faith and then say you're worshipping as a Christian when you do so! But I think we have at least a partial meeting of the minds here. HAVE A GREAT SHABBAT DAY! God bless you! (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
P.S. yaakov -- I guess I'm kinda saying what Judge Judy says -- don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining... Have a great weekend! (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.216.88 |
Solopilot, egk: The various doctrines which you claim that you and the Protestant cults share were codified hundreds of years after the Crucifixion, and are not interpreted in the same way, which is why it's so amusing to watch the bickering between "true" Christians. Uh . . .egk . . ? NONE of us has proof. Did you miss the times I've said that this is why God let errors crop up in the Bible . . ? After I post my message, I realize that I had misphrased my question. On what do you base you claims that the LDS is the true Church? If the divisions within Historic Christianity is evidence that the true Church is not among us, shouldn't the divisions among Mormons (RLDS, LDS, FLDS, Strangites, etc.) be evidence that the true Church is not a Mormon one? Also, I just read some of the claims of the Strangites. I find it interesting that Strange had plates, used the Urim and Thumrim (sp?) and had his own set of witnesses who saw and Handled the the plates. Sounds like the same type of evidence the BoM has to support it. EGK | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 202 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.5 |
EGK, You bring up some interesting points. Brigham was voted in after Joe died. That's how he became Prez. Some of the others left because they were sick and tired of joe's lies and attempted rapes and changing doctrines. Others left because they thought the mantle (apostleship) should have gone to joe's son, as joe himself had promised. Smith's wife Emma was one of those that left. So much for holding a church together. (and a vote by men is not God's voice. You're right in that the strangites hold the same fake priesthood as the current lds. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 203 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.5 |
In addition, brigham won the vote because he, according to written accounts, spoke 'in joe's voice' to the people. They were a superstitious lot, as proven by believing in seerstones and magic glasses. |
