| Author | Message | ||
     solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 541 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
It appears that the Smithsonian found a stone in a previously undisturbed Tennessee burial mound which has an inscription identified (by non-LDS scholars) as being "Judeah" in Paleo-Hebrew (AD 1st century). They found it in 1889. Associated wood fragments in the mound were later Carbon-14 dated to somewhere between 32 A.D. and 769 A.D. Interesting. http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/batcrk.html http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/AmerAntiq.pdf Skeptics believe that the inscription is a forgery by the Smithsonian-sponsored scientist who found the stone. Metallurgy of the bracelets found with the stone (and skeletons with which they were buried) shows the same proportions of lead and zinc used by the Romans around the time of Christ. http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf063/sf063a02.htm In addition, Roman coins have been found in burial mounds excavated by a number of groups, dating back to the time of Christ. Depictions of corn have been found in pre-Columbian carvings in India. While these prove nothing one way or another about the Book of Mormon, it does pretty much prove that there was trans-oceanic trade going on. Yet . . .the DNA evidence "proves" no Middle Eastern origin for native Americans . . .leading one to believe that none of those sailors, traders, soliders, etc, "dallied" with the local women. None of them. Over hundreds or even thousands of years of interaction. You will pardon me if I find that impossible to believe, as I myself am the end result of a lot of "cross-pollination," and that's just going back the couple of hundred years that I have information for! The only possibilities which fit the evidence are that any offspring never passed those genes along, that the people doing DNA matching haven't sampled the right group of native Americans, or that the evidence has not been made public. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Solo, Bat Creek Stones are Known Fakes. Smithsonian will not display them due to this fact. Just as Joseph Kinderhook plates were fake. http://www.telliquah.com/ click on Bat Creek Stone (it's in the left hand tool bar middle way down. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.31 |
Interesting in that the article stated the most likely conclusion, not beyond a reasonable doubt.} Very important for anyone in archaeological studies: Radiocarbon Dating--The basic assumptions for the reliability of C14 dating have now been shown to be incorrect. Partly because of this, and partly because of faulty chronology C14 dated are now used in the same way as in archaeology;}} If the method does not give the expected answers, the samples are said to be contaminated. Thus they are discarded unpublished. Due to the confusion C14 dates have caused, many mainstream archaeologists now refuse to use them. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Bob Barker: would the "RIGHT GROUP OF NATIVE AMERICANS" "COME ON DOWN"! Your the next contestants in search of semetic DNA. Next item up for bid: BAT CREEK STONES & KINDERHOOK PLATES, They will go lovely with any dinning room set. "RIGHT GRUOP OF NATIVE AMERICANS" What's your bid: ah, We bid 10 pecent of our income from joseph's kirkland bank. Bob: sorry you have overDrawn that account, but since Solo is a lamenite he gets to Spin the SEER STONE for another chance at a Brighham young beehive showcase showdown. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 89 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.101 |
 steelsword, your post was great, and also it humors me to think that a man who appears to be educated (sp) thinks he is smart enough to fool anyone. I question the intelligence of a man who will deny DNA evidence but will accept C14 is no longer accepted by most of the scientific community. Like many scientists, mormons are so anxious to be accepted they are willing to choose 'the path of least resistance', instead of the 'straight and narrow'. Steel, have you checked out the new site http://www.cultbusters.com.au.. I think it will provide not only a clean discussion board but also has very good and informative articles. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Will check it out, did you reference the Bat Creek Stone link above. It will tell you who faked it. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 90 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.101 |
I just referenced that site. Blackman faked it in 1889. Case closed. Just like mormonism, it all involved politics and notoriety. I'm trying to reach a childhood friend of mine who is a Christian Minister for Cherokee Indians in, I'm not sure what state. He is involved in translating the Indian language into English. I would like to find out if he is familiar with this and what he thinks. It's all very interesting, isn't it, that God does not suffer fools forever. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.101 |
I just referenced that site. Blackman faked it in 1889. Case closed. Just like mormonism, it all involved politics and notoriety. I'm trying to reach a childhood friend of mine who is a Christian Minister for Cherokee Indians on a reservation. I don't recall the state right now. He is involved in translating the Indian language into English. I would like to find out if he is familiar with this and what he thinks. It's all very interesting, isn't it, that God does not suffer fools forever. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
When I popped in, for a minute there I thought I saw Bob Barker!! Hilarious Steel!!! | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 133 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
I am laughing my head off Steelsworld. Every time Solopilot reads or writes from scientific sites he stuffs up. Stick to fiction like the BoM solopilot, you don't make as many laughable blunders. I have to stop laughing b4 I collapse. I will call back to this thread whenever I am feeling down. You have made my day Steelsworld | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 104 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.90 |
We can only wish mormons would recommend this site to other mormons who have progressed enough to provide common sense when speaking about their doctrines and beliefs. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.90 |
The questions asked for a temple recommend should concentrate more on; Do you agree with us that Christ was married to the Mary's? Do you agree that Adam was God? Do you agree that Satan was Jesus' brother in the spirit world? Do you agree the moon is inhabited by humans? Do you agree we don't really understand about God, gods? There are so many good questions members should be able to answer (positive) in order to pass into their sacred) Holy of Holies in the Temple. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 106 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.90 |
I just noticed in sp's post that 'it does pretty much prove that there was transatlantic trade going on'. But doesn't the bom say they found all the precious metals in America. And why does the writers of the bom fail to mention these harbors for ships coming to trade? To trade, something must have been taken back. Why is there no evidence of the American Indian trading with other continents. Mormonism is ongoing fiction. Do these mormons actually discuss these ideas with one another? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 107 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.90 |
Perhaps it was 'trade' with Norsemen. This comment ought to send sp right off to find something in their history that he can claim as evidence. Isn't it curious that after almost 200 years, mormon scholars haven't already found and taught the answers. Or could it be, mormons are taught NOT TO QUESTION? I vote for the latter. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 136 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
It is fortunate that the Bat Creek Stones were not placed through the hands of js or one of the lds prophets to enable another book like the Book Of Abraham to be printed and stated to be the word of god. If so we would now be in the position of having to prove another false claim by the lds and maybe the book would also have a heading on each page as Translated From The Bat Creek Stones By ***** There would have course been many more stones and they would have like other items of great archaeological importance ... disappeared. I do hope that Mormons who read this can see how gullible people can be to believe such claims as the bat creek stones even though SCIENCE has proven them false. Along comes a mormon who refuses to believe current DNA findings (which by the way are not out to disprove the BoM, but are pure factual findings) and in his defense rubbishes the Holy Bible because he cannot see wrong in the BoM and his false prophet js. Solopilot; your post above just goes to show that you would have jumped upon this wagon of falsehoods as did many other foolish men when Joseph Smith had his hands on a seers stone. Thank God for the Holy Bible, for at least god has taken into account that men and woman such as you would need something solid to restore their faith in him. "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him" Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 545 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Steel: GOTCHA! The Bat Creek stone was reported by the leader of a Smithsonian Institution survey team. Weren't you one of those who claimed the Smithsonian as an authority (in regard to the various letters they've posted on the Book of Mormon)? THAT is my point. You can't claim the SI to be an expert on the one hand and a fraud on the other. BTW, the SI also stated with authority that Christopher Columbus was the first European to visit the Americas for years after the Norse leftovers were being found. Eventually they were forced to change their tune. Please notice that I posted not only the pro-Bat Creek site but also the anti-Bat Creek site. Nulla: Now go back and read the rest of the post. Explain corn in ancient India, old Roman coins in native American graves. Some of my ancestors were fearless voyagers. Hawaii was empty of human life until Polynesians in CANOES went thousands of miles across the Pacific, and they did this routinely, sometimes for nothing more than to being a wife from the other end of Polynesia, which is a greater distance than from Oahu to Ohio. Ra and Ra II proved that ships of ancient design could go between northern Africa and the Americas. There is evidence in the Old World of trade with the Americas. There is proof that the technology of the day made such trade possible. Yet your DNA evidence says that it never happened (or that the sailors who came here were celibate, which is even harder to believe). | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 321 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
SP: They just can't get their heads around the fact that they are chasing their tails - a pastime of thousands of anti-LDS over the last couple of hundred years - all of whom got tired and went home. These lot come up with the same set of unoriginal claims that their predecessors have never been able to prove, and so gave up on. They produce no real proof the BoM is not the word of God, just a load of interpretation, isolated "facts" that they are unable to tie togather and bravado - patting each other on the back when they say something they can laugh about. Amusing that they claim WE are willing to overuse the rose coloured glasses! - I reckon they were the kids that bought the "x-ray" glasses, thinking they would really be able to see through things!! They'll believe just about anything. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 78 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
joesdad, You are using anti-scientific backward logic. The Bible pre-existed the Book of Mormon (BOM). When the BOM "appeared" -- through a hat and a peep stone in the 1800's -- then IT had to prove that IT was "the word of God." Not the other way around. The Bible was the given, the BOM was the challenge. Therefore the burden is left to the BOM and those who believe in it to prove it is the Word of God. Which everyone knows of course, it is not. Regardless, many have proven over and over and over that the BOM was not only plagiarized, but a work of one highly intelligent, yet crooked fella -- Joseph Smith ALONE. No God inspired work there. Not a shred of it. Oh -- except if you count the places Smith plagiarized parts of the Bible and badly reworded those parts to try and make it SEEM like the BOM was God-inspired. And those x-ray glasses? That's one of the stories about how Smith "translated" the "golden plates" that he found and made them into the BOM. There are other tales of peep stones in a hat that Smith held his face to...Christians don't go for that "magic" stuff, but Mormons apparently do. Like Mormon gods and goddesses ruling over their own planets and the goddess being perpetually and eternally pregnant so as to have people inhabit said planet (why good Mormon families have to have many babies -- to give a "body" to these "spirit babies" that are born of the mother earth goddess...). I'm not making this stuff up folks... Or that star Kolob that God lives near. Or the way that these Mormon gods and goddesses can be "eternally sealed" to their children and still have their children get their own planets to rule over. What does one do? If the parents and their children are sealed in that Temple Ceremony together for eternity -- then how can THEY (their kids) grow up and eventually get married in the temple ceremony to their Mormon spouse and rule over their OWN planet as god and goddess (after they die) if they have to stay sealed to their parents for eternity??????? Take a space ship back and forth to each other's planets???? Or are the PLANET EARTHS sealed together too??? Is that it???? Methinks Mormon "prophets" didn't think that one though... Now THAT'S x-ray magic glasses right there fer ya! And the truth shall make you free! (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Gotcha, I have never said the Smithsonian was an authority on anything, I know they have never used the Bom to find any archaeoloical evidence. http://www.irr.org/mit/natgeo.html http://www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html read them for yourself. The fact is the bat creek stones were a fake as well as the kinderhook plates. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 142 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 210.87.43.162 |
Solopilot Now go back and read the rest of the post. Explain corn in ancient India, old Roman coins in native American graves. What proof is this to do with Nephites? Prove the relationship of either you write. Yet your DNA evidence says that it never happened (or that the sailors who came here were celibate, which is even harder to believe). I am sorry Solopilot, but the DNA evidence is everyones... not just mine. If you are meaning the DNA I use as reference and the LDS use as well as the rest of the scientific world use as reference then you should stop making the term seem singular. Also remember as far down as New Zealand the Polynesians ventured as well. Why then did not the traders inhabit either New Zealand or Australia. re the corn/maize. In the remote valleys in the Himalayas such as Tashigang in Bhutan and Ilam in eastern Nepal, we find primitive popcorns with seven to nine ears per stem, all concentrated in the upper 20% of the stem. Similar "Sikkim primitive" popcorn was also recorded in northeastern India. These stems have distinctive arrangements of leaves and ear locations and tassels that droop in a form not typical for American maize. The varieties of corn in India and in China are often quite unlike the ones found in the Americas. In particular, besides the "Sikkim primitive", the authors mention the "conical" corn with a "somewhat pregnant shape like the Mysore carvings" which you Solopilot are refering to. Such variety is normally a sign of ancient speciation. Also, the waxy starch maize is found widely in Asia, Waxy starch maize is widespread in Asia from Manchuria and Korea to Burma and Assam, but rare in ancient America. This is a sticky starch. Professor You Xiuling of Hangzhou has stated that waxy-starched maize in China has a significantly distinctive isozyme distribution that is very different from New World maize isozymes. How far these new isozyme patterns extend into Southeast Asia and Subcontinent India has not yet been thoroughly explored, but Sachan et al. (1982) and Sachan and Sarkar (1986a,b) found that the multi- eared Sikkim primitive popcorn exhibits a distinct constitutive heterochromatic phenomenon similar to that found in South American maizes. Therefore, some ancient maizes have likely existed in Asia for a long time. So, great genetic variation of maize in India is an additional strong indicator of its antiquity there. nulla | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
nulla and steel -- listen to the sounds of silence when you attempt to pin a Mormon down and answer to the many, many flaws in the BOM and other LDS materials. Shhhhhhh -- the only thing we hear are the crickets... | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
 | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
joe -- why won't you answer nulla? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 349 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
cjv: Just more regurgitation of your misinformed prejudice - do some reading, learn a little - then maybe you may understand the answers to the questions, and maybe even the questions themselves. Can't see where Nulla has asked me a question, can you? | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
joe -- nice dodge, but why WON'T you answer nulla's questions? She actually addressed them to solo -- but that's never stopped you before -- nulla challenged the BOM -- http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=159515#POST159515 Answer the challenge and stop trying to "dazzle" me with your personal insults. I'm not affected really. Go to that link, read what she said, she challenges the BOM and you're curiously avoiding her challenge. Give some answers. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
I would also like to know why are not the Nephites part of school history in America. What percentage of the American Population believe the Nephites existed? Take away the fact that it is only in the BoM, take away the religious element. If it is true as the lds claim then I am sure it would be easy to prove and change history in stating such a large culture lived and practiced judaism in the Americas pre columbian. I and all others who deny such claims because there is nothing to make them change history are told we are anti mormon.. So it is only two cultures in the Americas and the rest of the Christian world. Mormon and anti mormon if there is not a high percent backing the claims that are not mormons. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 155 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot. your denial I noted on a site is only number five in a top ten list. I am a bit disappointed that you could not have made it one or two. http://www.mormonchallenge.com/challenge/dispute.htm " 5. “The DNA video does not address that the same science used to refute the Book of Mormon also challenges the Bible.” This change-of-venue tactic is hardly a valid defense of the Book of Mormon. Nevertheless, the science that disproves the Book of Mormon (population genetics) actually validates the biblical record; for example, the relatedness of Near East peoples is clearly established by population genetics studies. Sometimes this challenge focuses on the implications of the timing of the Asian incursions into the American continent, which many experts place at anywhere between 15,000 and 50,000 years ago. It should be noted that there is a significant degree of disagreement among experts about the reliability of genetics as a timing device. All that said, it was never the video’s purpose or intent to contribute to any sort of debate over this. The video’s main objective was to answer the question: What is the genetic origin of Native Americans? Nulla | ||
| x11 (x11) Member Username: x11 Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
Since DNA adds another brick to the mormon fallacy, Mormon experts have now decided that the scientists that discovered DNA technology were in fact Anti-mormon and have been plotting against mormons from the begining. JK but it would not be very surprising to hear something like this from mormon leaders. Hey jd, are'nt you an attorney? You should use the DNA can't be trusted thing in court someday. I wonder how trustworthy DNA would be if it proved that Indians did desend from nephi? Has the mormon prophet made an official comment on this subjet yet? Please if anyone can point me in the right direction? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 372 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
X11: Where are you getting your misinformation from? I'm English, we don't have Attorneys, and I'm not even an English version of one either (a Solicitor)- where did you get this from? I've never said this. Interesting, I wonder if you have considered how willingly and easily you have made an assumption about me. With no evidence you make judgements about me, based on what? Then I wonder how many of your assumptions about my religious beliefs are based on no evidence at all. OK GC may find your silliness entertaining, but I hope you see, you mock what you plainly don't understand, and know little about - I feel like I am repeating comments made to cjv: - you lot need to understand that your mud slinging is no more than that - not defence of Christianity, but childish playground nonsense. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 253 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.73 |
I will be perfectly honest in saying the mormon temple rituals are the funniest things I have read about since the movie "Nothing to Lose"! That men believe this nonsense will bring them into a celestial kingdom would be as laughable but because souls are at stake, there is nothing funny about that. I also find it funny to see tribemen who put poles on their penis' or large rings inside their lower lip, or young girls necks being stretched by metal rings, but I do not find a bit funny the reasons men choose to do strange things that have nothing to do with serving the Lord. I find it pathetic, sad, and a great waste of time. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 401 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Of course what you "know" about the Temple is made up of second hand accounts and your imagination of what it is like to go through the ceremonies, so to a point I understand why they sound funny. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
No, joe, when read in detail, the rituals performed in the LDS Temple Ceremony are laugh out loud silliness. Right down to the costumes and goofy hand shakes. Totally and utterly UN Christian to boot! You don't need to have participated in order to see this glaring reality joe. If anyone is interested, take a peek: http://www.luciferlink.org/mcerem.htm In Christ alone... | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 297 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.99 |
jd, if you had known in advance just what was going to be required of you in the temple, would you have asked questions, like why? Or would you have gone along with it all even if you felt uncomfortable about it? When you came out the first time, how did you feel? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 432 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
cjv: The first problem of course with that article is that it is so biased (it states it's conclusions before even discussing anything), and I do not agree at all that it fairly represents either what happens in the Temple or the doctirne behind what we do. So, I do know what happens in the Temple, you do not, I inform you that what you are reading is not correct. I have no reason at all to lie about this. As you are well aware we deem the Temple and it's ordinances sacred, and to that end I will be purposefully brief in what I say regarding it. I have NEVER had any investigation made into my finances or otherwise to obtain a Temple recommend, nor has anyone else I know. I am asked simple and direct questions that I am expected to respond to honestly. Where is the real discussion of the Temple? This is no more than fanciful comparison to Masonry and Witchcraft without the writer even attempting to prove why they should be discussed together. Glaring reality? Where? anything that may actually happen in the Temple is so lost in the writers attempts to use as many negative quotes (regardless of relevance or context) that it is impossible to know what may happen there. You've done it again cjv - relied on unreliable sources for your "information" - even worse, this one makes great use of quoting other unreliable sources - when will you learn?. WE DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOU THINK WE DO, and until you are honest enough to yourself to accept that this makes a difference - you will never know what Mormons actually believe, just see a childish charictature of one. GC: Yes I would have asked Why? In fact, the night before a friend tried to explain some of what would happen - that worried me. Then when I went through I realised it was something that cannot be explained in words to be fully appreciated. That's why I know that those of you who have not been to the Temple know nothing about it but someone elses discription (like trying to describe an elephant to a blind man). My first time, I had a splitting headache, trying to take in every detail. The next time, I just went to enjoy it, and had a fantastic spiritual experience. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 299 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.152.178.46 |
jd, I appreciate what I consider an honest answer to my question. Peyote and other mind altering drugs can give a fantastic 'spiritual' experience also. Although you obviously receive pleasure from going through the temple, I do not believe anything done there is what God desires of us, and is neither a commandment or a covenant between Him and any man. (I'm not trying to aggitate you, I'm just giving my opinion. I had a fantastic spiritual experience two days ago when my granddaughter and I prayed together, for the first time. Do you believe people like Adolf Hitler and Mussolini were baptized by proxy in a mormon temple or do you believe those are just lies? Do you believe Hitler or Mussolini did anything to show they were repentant before their deaths? And do you believe they are able to continue to do works after their deaths to be forgiven and therefore go to the celestial kingdom? If it is proven to you without a doubt that they were baptized by proxy in the temple, would that make a difference in your thinking about the mormon church? I know these are a lot of questions, but as I am traveling I don't often have a chance to get online. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 458 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I totally appreciate what you say, in that a spritual expereince can be had whever the spirit is, so of course so long as the spirit is welcomed and is present in either the Temple or our homes then we can feel it testify to us he is there. So far as I understand it CHrists command to be baptised applies to EVERYONE, bond or free, good or bad - as proxy baptism GURANTEES nothing, then of course even those who lived deplorable lives will not benefit unless they repent to a level acceptable to the Lord. Their refusal to accept it will of course simply add to their condemnation. Neither you nor I can judge them, only Christ can. Remember the problem that Jonah had with Nineveh? - we need to beware of making the same type of judgement, as we start to question Gods will and ultimately start thinking we can decide who He can forgive - do you not agree? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 303 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.152.180.28 |
I do agree we cannot judge others. Do you think Joe Smith and Brigham Young were judging christians of his day when they made their many derogatory comments about them? Can God speak to say, your wife? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 465 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I am sure that they respected those who were deserving of respect, and condemned those who spread false rumours and accusations. God can and I am sure does speak to whomever he wants - including my wife! | ||
| bropratt (bropratt) New member Username: bropratt Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 24.10.176.59 |
Michigan Tablet http://www.artbulla.com/zion/batcreek.html What do you think? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 478 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
bropratt: Are you a follower of Mr Bulla? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 322 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.120.209 |
Joesdad, does God speak to you? How did Christ respond to people who spread rumors and lies about Him? Are we not, and I know mormons teach this also, to love those who spitefully abuse us? How then, (If you agree)can anyone condone the words and actions by mormon prophets? bropratt, we covered quite extensively the Bat Creek Stones. They are fake. It is easy to contact the Smithsonian. I would recommend for anyone interested to see what they say, instead of what mormons say they say, (deception at its best). What do you think? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 483 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Have you never read Matthew Chapter 23? - do you therefore say Christ is condemned by His own words - or are you simply trying to make out LDS Prophets are not Christlike, and failing terribly? I know it is the latter, and because of that you are devoid of the Holy Ghost and any direction in your rediculous attack - otherwise of course you would know that though Christ taught us to love one another - He also made sure those that made such abuse (like you do) know where they stand in His eyes. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 333 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.114.43 |
jd, it's called 'tough love' in dealing with you. Pampering only spoils you more. lds prophets are not Christlike, and failing terribly on behalf of Christ, but are doing a fair job for Satan. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 334 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.114.43 |
When you read the book of Matthew, you ignore most of the chapter (which perfectly defines mormonism that Jesus Christ is warning of) and go directly to the portion where he speaks of the scribes and pharisees not listening to the prophets but holding to their own traditions and empty rituals, believing more in themselves than in a Savior. You are thinking that mormonism's false prophets are comparable to the prophets Christ chose, not man. Thay are in no way comparable. I beg you to read the whole chapter again to yourself, prayerfully, and hopefully the Holy Spirit will show you what christians say is true. Then you might want to answer the question; do you believe our bodies are the temple and the tabernacle, that when Jesus said he will come in and sup with us, he is speaking of our bodies? | ||
| kushana (kushana) New member Username: kushana Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 134.173.134.142 |
Solopilot said: >being "Judeah" in Paleo-Hebrew (AD 1st century). That's not at all right -- that should be "Judean" (which makes no sense in a 1st century context long after the Divided Kingdom.) ("Paleo-Hebrew" script wasn't used in the 1st century and hadn't been for about 400 years. The Hebrew language itself had also fallen out of use: most Jews of the time spoke and wrote Greek.) This is so amiss it can't be right. Looking at an image of the stone, that doesn't look like any Hebrew (or Aramaic) script I'm familiar with (from 100 B.C. - 600 A.D.) They don't match any letters at any stage of development. >Carbon-14 dated to somewhere between 32 A.D. and >769 A.D. That's *very strange* looking C-14 dating: the range of dates is usually expressed in whole numbers (30-800 C.E.) The date range is also far too wide, +/- 50 years is far more typical (http://www.radiocarbon.com/labmethods.htm) Since these weren't discovered in a modern dig, I suspect there's no way to know if the wood was from another strata or contaminated by other organic matter. Could you post your reference for who did the C-14 dating, by what method, and when? Do you know if this result been verified by other labs against control samples of known date? -Kushana | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 191 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Kushana.... you need to read the follow ups to solo's post. Nulla | ||
| kushana (kushana) New member Username: kushana Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 134.173.134.142 |
Dear Nulla, I did. (Since I study archaeology and paleography in just that time period, I thought I'd address Solopilot's assertion of authenticity on different terms.) -Kushana | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 192 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Kushana.... no problems my friend. Good to see you on this thread and nice to meet you Just for some added info as well... Solopilot has not returned to post for quite sometime. I too am waiting on some answers on a reply he gave to me re papyrus and the Book of Abraham Your knowledge would have been very handy in this Mormon section a while back when Solopilot was posting. I was having quite some time trying to prove some basic archaelogical points regarding lack of such evidence to support of the BoM. DNA is also a bit of a no no here as well. If you get some time to read through some of the threads you will see what some of us were up against when trying to put forward some scientific facts. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 193 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Associated Press, via the Salt Lake Tribune, USA Sep. 16, 2005 www.sltrib.com NORWICH, N.Y. - Records showing that LDS Church founder Joseph Smith was arrested while living in upstate New York have resurfaced after a three-decade absence. The documents dating back to the late 1820s were recently handed over to the Chenango County Historical Society by the son of a former county historian. The current county historian, Dale Storms, said the records showed Smith's arrests for ''glass looking,'' a 19th-century term for treasure hunting. One document is a bill for $2.68 for a judge's fees in Smith's case. In 1830, Smith founded what became known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 10 years after he disclosed a vision of God and Jesus while praying in the woods near his home in Palmyra in western New York. Smith was killed in 1844 by an anti-Mormon mob in Illinois. | ||
| kushana (kushana) New member Username: kushana Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 134.173.134.167 |
Dear Nulla, It's good to meet you, too. I wish Solopilot would reply to my posts, also... > Your knowledge would have been very handy.... I am sorry I wasn't present for that conversation. (I may not have been as much help as you think: my specialty is the Near East, not North America. My knowledge of pot sillouettes, textiles, coins, the history of food, artistic motifs, trade routes, languages, local history, and the development of local religions may not be much help.) On the other hand, a good encyclopedia can be surprisingly helpful on pinning down such information as the archaeology of the horse in North America, the history of metalworking, or the relationships between languages or peoples. (I may be of some help with languages, I know 5 Semitic languages (including Egyptian) and have colleagues who know additional ones.) In addition to encyclopedias, if you have access to a large public library (or a college or university library) a reference librarian and the following databases could help you with the details of more technical matters (an article's abstract or a book's index can often lead you right to the detail you're searching for) -- American Archaeology and History: History of Science, Technology, and Medicine ATLAReligion (also covers Archaeology) American History in General: Historical Abstracts Wilson Humanities Index These generally point to magazines, so a check of the library's book catalogue is also in order. With good research skills you don't need an expert. ;) That said, I'd be happy to participate in future conversations, as I can. (Note: my point is to teach history, I don't care what religion anyone is.) -Kushana (Message edited by Kushana on November 16, 2005) | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 229 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Kushana Thanks for the help and info my friend. Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 555 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: have you discovered what punishment he received - if he was conviceted of the accusation? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 230 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Joesdad, mormons try and point out that JS was not fined or convicted, in doing so they can distance themselves from the fact the JS was into peep stones and looking glasses money digging etc prior to the BoM. “Before Mr. Walters made his discovery of the bills, Mormon scholars were willing to admit that if the 1826 trial were authentic, it would disprove Mormonism. Dr. Francis W Kirkham made these statements: A careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that no such record was ever made, and therefore, is not in existence.... If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church (A New Witness For Christ In America, vol. 1, pp.385-87). If a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person—unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality—if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance which led them to follow him.... How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been the superstitious fraud which 'the pages from a book' declared he confessed to be? (Ibid., pp.486-87).” "In 1961, Nibley authored a book entitled The Mythmakers, in which he ventured to boldly debunk assertions that Joseph Smith had committed, or had been arrested for, the crime of "glass-looking." Nibley (in words he probably later wished he could retract) went so far as to declare that if, in fact, Smith was actually proven guilty of such nefarious activity, it would constitute the most damning blow that could be imagined to Smith's claim of divine prophetship." So Joesdad…. Is it the case of the police or peoples in Palmyra decided to make up a story and accuse Jo of doing something which he later uses as a means of his direct link to god and the devil. “Although Joseph Smith suppressed the 1826 trial in his History of the Church, Dale L. Morgan discovered that the trial was mentioned as early as 1831 in a letter published in the Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, printed in Utica, N.Y. We cite the following from that publication: Messrs. Editors— ... thinking that a fuller history of their founder, Joseph Smith, jr., might be interesting ... I will take the trouble to make a few remarks.... For several years preceding the appearance of his book, he was about the country in the character of a glass-looker: pretending, by means of a certain stone, or glass, which he put in a hat, to be able to discover lost goods, hidden treasures, mines of gold and silver, &c.... In this town, a wealthy farmer, named Josiah Stowell, together with others, spent large sums of money in digging for hidden money, which this Smith pretended he could see, and told them where to dig; but they never found their treasure. At length the public, becoming wearied with the base imposition which he was palming upon the credulity of the ignorant, for the purpose of sponging his living from their earnings, had him arrested as a disorderly person, tried and condemned before a court of Justice..... This was four or five years ago (Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, p.120). "State of New York v. Joseph Smith. "Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an impostor. "Prisoner brought before Court March 20,1826, Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business." (Fraser's Magazine, Feb. 1973, p. 229) The court record plainly shows that Joseph Smith was deeply involved in magic practices at the very time he was supposed to be preparing himself to receive the plates for the Book of Mormon. The court record shows that Smith was searching for buried treasure in 1826, and according to his own story, the plates for the Book of Mormon were taken from the Hill Cumorah the following year. Joseph Smith claimed that he had known that the plates were buried in the Hill Cumorah since 1823. He made this statement concerning the discovery of the plates: "Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates.... "I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger, and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time ..." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:52-53). “Now, it is interesting to note that in the court record Joseph Smith confessed that "for three years" prior to 1826 he had used a stone placed in his hat to find treasures or lost property. According to Joseph Smith's own statement, then, he began his money-digging activities in about 1823. The reader will remember that the messenger was supposed to have informed Joseph Smith of the gold plates on September 21, 1823. From this it would appear that Joseph Smith became deeply involved in money-digging at the very time the messenger told him of the gold plates and that he was still involved in these practices for at least three of the four years when God was supposed to be preparing him to receive the gold plates for the Book of Mormon. These facts seem to undermine the whole foundation of Mormonism.” | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 560 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: May I have the link to whever you got this so that I may read it in context, thanks. |
