| Author | Message | ||
     fire (fire) New member Username: fire Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
The mormon preisthood is an important LDS teaching in order to keep lds members under control, in fact that is the whole idea behind this evil and ridiculous practice. The greatest and most powerful thing ANY person can have on this earth and in this life is, a personal soul connection with Jesus Christ, the beauty of this is unexplainable, it is a gift to be accepted, not something earned or worked towards. When a person or group of people teach anything to the contrary they are teaching false docterine. The mormons teach of "presithood power" one of the many obvious problems with this is, that it is not a gift readly available to any who will accept, it is something earned, worked towards, and submitted to availble only to loyal male members of the LDS faith. When a person puts their faith in a mystical and fraudulent power such as "mormon preisthood" what they are really saying is: " I beileive in G-d but I need a medium in order to communicate" The problem with this is that the ONLY REAL medium was Jesus Christ of the bible and he is was and forever will be available to those who seek BOTH male and female, bond and free. If any other way was needed such as js mormonism, preisthood, ect.. Christ would have said: no one gets to the father except through me, no one gets to me except through js and so on, instead he said: John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me. Also see Acts 4:12 These passages are very powerful and personal statements that clearly state: salvation comes through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. What the mormons indirectly teach is that you must first accept js in order to be accepted by Jesus Christ. In order to make this a believeable concept and to cover the lies in mormonism satan had to create something mystical to go along with his church hence, the mormon preisthood. The mormons place their complete trust in this evil practice which makes it impossible for most LDS members to ever truly establish a real relationship with Jesus and thus be saved. The LDS religion is a branch of satans church beyond any reasonable doubt. fire/x11 | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
I've been away from the boards for awhile, and just dropped in tonight. Are you former LDS? Well said by the way. Good for you for exposing the truth about this orgnization. 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 530 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Fire: Please explain how the Priesthood is used to "keep lds members under control" when about 40% of all Mormons are members of the Priesthood . . ? Yes, the Priesthood is something one works toward. Assuming that you find your way to church services on Sunday, do you think that your preacher just walked in off the street one day and took over the congregation? Or do you think that maybe he or she "worked toward" that job, getting a college degree then ordination by whichever cult his or her college feeds? Your church indirectly teaches that you must first accept Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and all the rest in order to be accepted by Jesus Christ. For that matter, so does mine. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.118 |
Thank you Lord, for men who chose to follow you; men who were fishermen willing to be fishers of men for you. Thank you for a carpenter. Thank you for mothers , women, and wives who followed you. Thank you for providing for the uneducated your Holy Word and the Holy Spirit that guides us to all understanding and light. Thank you for loving the poor and uneducated, and those who seek after righteousness for righteousness sake. Please help us to be more like them, and therefore more like you. Amen | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
When did any apostles ever hold a preisthood? In the old testament ,to obtain the preisthood it was a seven day process. I've never found any info that any of the apostles went through this process,& for that matter neither did JOHN THE BAPTIST. He wondered in the wilderness for forty years, it never says he performed any preisthood function at any temple. The mormon preisthood is just another example of how the mormon church denies the power of Christ, who became the Last high preist & defeated the manly preisthood of the Levites, through the House of Aaron. Just trying to bring back an old testament practice that Christ defeated on the CROSS! | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
1 Peter 2:9 All beleivers in Christ become a ROYAL PREISTHOOD. Solo, Your preisthood does not intercede for anyone anymore, For Christ JESUS is the sole Mediator between man and the father. The book of Hebrews tells you that your Real Help comes only From the last HIGH PREIST & his Throne of Grace. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Hebrews 3:1 Jesus , the last apostle & High Preist. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Hebrews 6:20, in the Old order of the preisthood their was only one high priest at a time, and when he passed another would be apointed.We see that this honor was given to christ the last High Priest. Jesus would now forever be our intercessor , because he lives forever more & would not die again. So their would be no need for any more Priest. Christ now the mediator. The Lds deny God his authority by bringing back a priesthood that Christ now posseses. Christ Being The last High Priest was not good enough, so they think man can do a better job of it. Hebrews 7:25 | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 537 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Steel: If you believe that a group of priests had the authority to decide what was and was not scripture, then how can you believe that the Bible which they left us says that there are no more priests? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 85 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.53 |
Christ is alive, not dead. He is the last High Priest. No others are needed. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Solopilot: You said: If you believe that a group of priests had the authority to decide what was and was not scripture, then how can you believe that the Bible which they left us says that there are no more priests? solopilot -- do you even read the Bible? First of all, the New Testament was given to us by Apostles, not Priests. Second of all, how can you ask that question when steel gives you the scriptures? How rude is that? What in the world do you mean, how can he believe that?! How can a person who demands that he be called a Christian as a member of a supposedly Christian organization say in essence, 'HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE AND WHAT IT SAYS?' Christians, true Christians, believe the Bible because it is God's Word. God's Word clearly, CLEARLY tells us that Jesus Christ is the High Priest now. The Bible clearly tells us that this LDS priesthood thing isn't NEEDED any longer. Just for once -- read what the Bible says. Don't rely on what you've been told by someone or dogma you've memorized go to the SOURCE. Find out what GOD SAYS about the matter and READ IT. Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. There goes the need for prophets. Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus... Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God... Standby: Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:10 Called of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. More: Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest, Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord swore and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek  Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. I hope you're able to grasp a pattern here because the Bible again tells us that the things before -- like the law and the priesthood are now changed. JESUS is the new covenant -- JESUS is the High Priest FOREVER MORE because MEN can't be FOREVER MORE as the new covenant requires! Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated forevermore. Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount. Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Christ is the BETTER more PERFECT High Priest: Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building... Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb 10:21 And having a high priest over the house of God; Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Now, if you're not afraid to face the truth, read these scriptures IN CONTEXT. That would mean actually READING THE BIBLE -- ALL OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS. See if you can manage that. It might be a real eye opener. Because I assure you, if you put down all LDS materials, if you humbled yourself before the Lord and didn't read a thing OTHER THAN THE BIBLE -- you wouldn't be able to remain LDS because you'd find out that Mormonism is nothing but teachings by men, changed over and over by men and rammed down the throat of men. It's not God's Holy Word. God's Holy Word is the Bible and it's logical, it doesn't change and it is clear about the Priesthood. You can do this solo -- use the brain the good Lord gave you and THINK FOR YOURSELF. Consider that you could believe something that is wrong and consider reading God's Word so that you can learn the truth of Jesus Christ -- the ONLY Savior who can give you a peace that surpasseth all understanding -- and the ONLY Savior who can save your soul. JUST THINK ABOUT IT. In Christ alone I place my trust... | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.142 |
Wow , i couldn't of said it better,The lds don't even give GOD the power to protect his own word. I mean if God couldn't protect his own word , we have nothing. Jesus Christ is THE last High Priest ! PERIOD.. Heb 7:24 Once Christ Possesed It , It was unchangable ( The greek word here is INVIOLET). His preisthood cannot be violated,it cannot be pass on to another , as it was with man, because Christ lives forever more. No one can lay claim to it,but the mormons have slapped Christ in the face & tried to take back their manly preisthood, because to them obviously Christ is not doing a good enough Job as our High Preist. It's amazing to me that the lds didn't have the priesthood the first 2 years or so & baptised over 2000 members without a preisthood. David Whitmer 1 of the three witness said that ordaining High preist in the lds church was a grievous error, introduced by Sidney Rigdon. He also stated that Joseph said that Elder was the highest office in the church. Where are the Priest in the BOM, Aaronic or Melchesdic? Not to be Found. Also these priesthoods were through the tribe of LEVI,Joseph said the Nephites & lamenites were through the tribe of Menasseh & Ephram. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.142 |
Also why would a group of priest ,as you state, if they were in control, leave in the book of Hebrews,(Which gives sole priesthood authority to Christ alone). Looks like to me it would hurt their cause. | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
Sp: you said: "Please explain how the Priesthood is used to "keep lds members under control" when about 40% of all Mormons are members of the Priesthood . . ?" As I stated the in my original post here, the most powerful, most influentual, most life changing, and most healing power available to individuals on this earth is a close relationship with the Saviour Jesus Christ. Once a person has REALLY established this relationship and felt the life changing healing power of Christ, this person knows without any doubt that through him all things are possible and nothing, NOTHING else matters. Now to understand why I would say the lds church uses the thing they call "priesthood power" to control its members, one must be: A. Christian B. Willingly and humbly searching for the truth C. Somewhat knowledgable of what Jesus Christ taught in and the throughout the bible and specifically in the NT when he was walking this earth and experienceing life as we do. To paint a picture the best I can: When we were children our mothers and fathers taught us not to take candy from strangers, They did not say unless he offers lots of candy, or if it looks like really good candy, or use your best judgment, or if the guy looks nice, you get the picture, they said "do not take candy from strangers" period. This advice kept us safe and alert to the dangers. Christ taught a similar lesson but pertaining to spiritual matters, he taught that to follow him was the ONLY safe road to salvation, he goes much further and gives many warnings and examples in regards to the tricks that will be used by people trying to decieve you into accepting the "candy" so to speak. js and mormonism unquestionably fall into the catagory of things that we were warned about by Jesus Christ. When an individual or group teaches that a church, religious group, gathering of people, individual, certain rituals or whatever comes before what Christ taught this is false docterine and blasphemy. Mormon preisthood is used as a faith destroying tool, as one must take faith away from Christ and put faith into a system or a way of doing things, its like saying I believe in Christ because I pray, instead of, I pray because I believe Christ. One way puts faith in the flesh, the other in God. I understand its hard for any mormon to grasp what I said in my original post, and the reason for this is that mormons do not believe Christ, even when his teachings are simple and plain.(sorry jd, sp, and all other mormons, you won't get this either. x11) Sp, I do not know if their is a better word to have used instead of "control" I could have said to "keep the power of Christ hidden" or something to that effect, but the more I think about it, control is the very best word, as Christ gave us the ability to choose and any religion that hides that truth and teaches, that searching outside of their belief system is "evil and wrong" is using methods of control. Mormon Preisthood is a false tool used in spite of faith. (fire was used instead of x11 in my original post as my x11 username would not let me post that day) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 111 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.90 |
x11, I thank God that you are amongst us. You speak plainly and truthfully. Thank you. Psalm 118:24 This is the day the Lord has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. It is marvelous to me to know right now is all we need to concern ourselves with, and not years of empty works that will bring us nothing, and especially God nothing to glorify Him. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Notice -- when scripture is given to clearly blow to bits Mormon dogma and ritual etc. -- silence by LDS ensues...  me listening to the silence...   | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Great topic fire, great points made! In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 549 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
cjv: Don't you have the SLIGHTEST idea how we got the Bible? The Bible was compiled nearly 400 years after Christ, by a group of Catholic and Orthodox priests, who spent several years reading (and arguing over) various letters and books which were believed to be scriptural by one Christian church or another. Those which they decided were scripture became the Bible (after argument over which order the books should be in), and those which they weren't sure about but sounded good anyway were called the Apocrypha (and included in the first several versions of the KJV). Some felt that the Book of Revelation was apocryphal, which is why it was placed out of order at the back of the New Testament -- if a later council decided that it wasn't really Biblical, it could be removed without messing up the rest of the Bible. Prior to that, there was no such thing as the Bible. x11: I think that this last is the first "reasonable discussion" post I've seen from you. To answer it, let me tell you that the Priesthood is not an obstacle between Jesus and I, it's HELPING JOIN us, by giving me the authority of Christ to act in his name when I do what he wants me to do. It doesn't come first, it comes WITH. If you want to look at obstacles between man and Christ, research the various "mainstream" doctrines and see when they were inserted into Christianity. cjv: Sorry not to be as obsessive as you are about posting here. Real life takes precendence for me. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 75 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Solo, bless your heart! So prior to a bunch of Catholic Priests having a pow wow, there wasn't a BIBLE??!! Well, you had better tell a bunch of Jews that what they had prior to that pow wow wasn't Scripture!!! Man, I bet that's going to be a mess when THEY find out! You really have to stop reading EXCLUSIVELY Mormon materials. Solo -- PUL-EASE get out more! Have you ever even TRIED reading OUTSIDE of Mormon Church materials? There's truly a vast world of knowledge out there. First let's go to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church -- you may have heard of that really, really nice school -- Oxford? Anyhoo -- they say that you are partially correct in that the Christian Bible became recognized by the Christian Church and writings of Apostolic origin as of equal authority and inspiration in Rome around 382. But the OT was around much longer Solo. I'm trying to understand your point here. So this makes The Bible any less valuable to you, any less important than the Book of Mormon which was founded in the 1800's -- thousands of years later??! I'm not following your logic here... Let's follow the logic of the Bible to be clear. The Bible was not compiled by men. In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God: John Chapter 1 verse 1. The Word became flesh. John Chapter 1 verse 14. (BTW -- always be careful to read scripture in context -- just a reminder.) Can the Bible be corrupted? Can men corrupt God? Well, the Bible shows us -- no. If God's Word had become corrupted, God would have restored it. Please see Jeremiah chapter 34. Plus, it's just plain silly to think men can do anything to God no less cause Him to miss some of his parts or become corrupted. Silliness. God's Word is eternal: Psalm 119:89 The Word of God stands forever: Isaiah 40:7 The Word of God is perfect: 2 Sa 22:31 (so much for missing parts or being corrupted etc.) Every Word of God is flawless: Proverbs 30:5-6 A sure word of prophecy: 2 Peter 1:19-21 (never does the Bible tell us MEN are a source for a sure word of prophecy since Jesus Christ because our risen Savior. Why? Because Jesus is the full and final revelation of God "in the last days" Heb 1:1-2). Heaven and earth will pass away but [God's] words will never pass away: Matthew 24:35 ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD: 2 Tim 3:16 -- Note the word ALL -- not parts, not portions... HOLY MEN OF GOD WROTE THE BIBLE AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT: 2 Peter 1:21 The Bible is not something to refer to whenever. The Bible is a HOLY LIVING THING compiled for us through men BY GOD. So even if a bunch of Priests compiled what we now know as the Christian Bible -- your point? Even if it was almost 400 years after the death of Jesus Christ, we know the gospel was preached during that time. That there were no printing presses doesn't mean God's Word wasn't alive and being preached throughout the world. Why would THIS bother you yet you would hold the Book of Mormon as OK written WAY later, by a guy looking into his hat to "translate?" Why is THIS not something you would face with skepticism???? Or is this one of your post and dodge ploys because you're not as "obsessive" as me posting here? Oh really? If that's just an excuse not to answer when the questions get tough -- it won't play here. A quick search of your user name reveals you have 546 posts on 85 pages in 6 different topics. You've got me beat by a country mile. I'm 74 posts on 15 pages ONE topic. Nice try at an insult, but you're apparently left with egg all over your smug face Solo... Stop trying to twist things and face the truth Solo. Stop the name calling and THINK with the brain God gave you! You're not stupid! But like I once was, you're ACTING stupid! I once was like you when I was in the cult The Way International, BLOCKING out anything Christians told me because I thought I was superior. You're not superior. You're not superior because you believe in false teachings by false prophets. But you COULD be -- you could be a child of God. All it takes is open eyes, using your brain and denouncing what you've been taught. Then open your heart to the true Living Lord and Savior Solo. DEMONS know Jesus -- ever read that in the Bible? Check out Luke 4:33-37. What makes you different than those demons Solo? THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! Or are you going to run away now and then hide behind some random insults later on in another thread (where it's much harder to follow the thread) so that others will think you're oh so very clever? In Christ alone I place my trust... THE DANGER OF PROFESSION WITHOUT TRUE FAITH Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 553 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
cjv: Bless your heart, you follow the Bible, yet are so ignorant of its origin that you laugh at me for explaining it to you? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH You've just written a check on the Bank of CJV's Brain, and it BOUNCED. Prior to the Third Councils of Carthage, AD 391 - 397, the Bible didn't exist. The Jews had the TORAH, which was incorporated into the Holy Bible as the Old Testament. The priests then waded through various letters and books which were believed to be scriptural, and decided which ones you should believe and which you shouldn't, yet all of what they studied was held to be scriptural by one Christian church or another. Try pulling your head out of your pastor and look for yourself. Do a web search on "origin of the bible" "council of carthage" and see what you get. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 167 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.15 |
Catholics weren't people who found christian doctrine and adopted it for themselves. Some christians organized to become the catholic church. There's a big difference. sp says prior to that there was no Bible. God's Word does not have to be written. It was on the hearts of believers in Christ. Do mormons believe the apostles, Jesus, and his diciples spoken of in the Bible were Catholic? That is an absurd notion if I ever heard one, but not surprising that it comes from the mind of a mormon. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 169 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.15 |
The written Word did not create christianity. The written Word is evidence of christianity. It defines it. It is about men/women who lived it, and wanted to share it. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 170 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.15 |
The statement above by solopilot "get your head out of your pastor..." was totally uncalled for. Solopilot, you need to apolgise to cjv. You are nasty minded. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Solo says the preist had to wade through letters and articles, so i suppose the letters& articles exsisted before the catholic church, so we can say that the catholic church cannonized the bible , but they didn't write it, because it existed before them. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 371 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Prior to the Third Councils of Carthage, AD 391 - 397, the Bible didn't exist. The Jews had the TORAH, which was incorporated into the Holy Bible as the Old Testament. The priests then waded through various letters and books which were believed to be scriptural, and decided which ones you should believe and which you shouldn't, yet all of what they studied was held to be scriptural by one Christian church or another. This is mostly correct. The council of Carthage put together the Christian bible. The Muslims had their own codification of their holy book. And the Jewish bible had its own earlier codification. The actual Torah (5 books of Moses) was written by God. The Nevi’im is less holy since it was divinely inspired by God to the prophets. Ketuvi'im is even farther away spiritually. The decision as to what went into Nevi'im (prophets) and Ketuvi'im (Writings) was made by the Anshei Kenesses haGedolah (Men of the Great Assembly). There were tens of thousands of navis (prophets) yet only a few are in Nevi'im, same with the Writings. What was codified was that which reinforced Torah. | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Solopilot, Prior to the Third Councils of Carthage, AD 391 - 397, the Bible didn't exist. The Jews had the TORAH, which was incorporated into the Holy Bible as the Old Testament. The priests then waded through various letters and books which were believed to be scriptural, and decided which ones you should believe and which you shouldn't, yet all of what they studied was held to be scriptural by one Christian church or another. Try pulling your head out of your pastor and look for yourself. Do a web search on "origin of the bible" "council of carthage" and see what you get We've been through this before. The various books of the NT were used in the various local churches since the first centuries of this era. There were some local variations concerning which books where included. Before the council of carthage, the chuches had, for the most part come to a consensus as to which books were in the NT. The council of carthage was a local council that was binding only for the churches in North Africa. (Granted about 200 or 300 years later a council, recognized by the Orthodox Churches made the degrees of carthage and several other councils binding on all the churches.) Can you find sites on the web that support your views of this council? Sure, does that make it correct? No. Please refer to a scholarly book on the formation of the the NT canon. In fact go to any secular, but scholarly, history of the later Roman Empire, look up the Council of Carthage, and you will discover how this was only a local council. One other question for you. Why is it necessary for you to give an inaccurate account of this council to support your views? You lambast the other on this forum for inaccurately portrary Mormon beliefs and practice. Why do you insist on doing the same to history when it supports your views? Yaakov, When was the Hebrew canon closed? I was taught that the Torah and the Prophets were closed before CE, and that the Writings were closed shortly after the First Jewish Revolt at the end of the first century CE? EGK | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 372 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
EGK We know (from various texts such as Josephus) that the cannon was "closed" prior to the 3rd Century BCE. Jewish history tells us that it occurred around the 5th century BCE (over 800 years before the New Testament was canonized) by the Men of The Great Assembly, who obviously placed significance on the order of the books. How old is the Torah? | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
SP, No matter what you or the mormons believe to be true, Jesus has laid a foundation for his followers to follow, in his plan, very clear warnings were givin in regards to false prophets and teachers. Why you or anyone claiming to be Christian would be decieved by the teachings of js and his successors is really a hard to grasp when the fallacy of js and mormonism is very clear. In order for you to believe in mormonism you must first dis-believe the bible, is this not correct? According to mormon teachings you must first accept js in order to gain salvation through Christ, is this not correct also according to mormon teachings? If your answer is no, then you must re-think what you have been taught, think about this, if there was a need for a "restored gospel" that would mean there is need for a new saviour, what the lds teach is that js restored a gospel of a dead saviour, if we take the word "restored" we would assume that the person or in this case a religious group using the word "restored" uses it to mean, to bring back somthing that was on the decline, or deteriorating and would eventually cease to exsist if givin a long enough period of time or to paraphrase mormonism, what Christ did on the cross would have eventually become null and void had js not restored God?!? If you do not see the blasphmy in this then well I'm sorry but I do. While there may or have not been a great apostasy god left his word and TRUE gospel in the bible for anyone who was truly searching to find, just because there might not have been any living apostles does not mean that finding the truth about God was impossible for the individual seeker. In fact this is addressed, READ THE BIBLE! SP, JD, why why why do you continually ask for proof from people on these threads when all you have to do is READ THE BIBLE?? The answers are all right there period. No confussing teachings, no weird doctorine just straight forward pure and simple truth. Do not be afraid to come out of prison just because you have called it home for so long. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 336 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
X11: Your logic does not follow. Because Christ warned against false Prophets, this must by necessity mean He was aware that TRUE ones must and would exist - your idea that ANY Prophet must be false is against Christs admonition - cutting of your nose my friend! Again your parroting incorrect LDS doctrine shows your willingmess to rely upon mans false ideas rather than upon Christ - shake yourself out of the idea you can rely on what you read from your anti-LDS sources, they make you appear foolish and ignorant, which I am sure you are not. At least give yourself the credit of being able to research our beliefs properly before attempting to tell us they are incorrect. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 79 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
godchild, Thanks Honey, but truly, it's wonderful when the Mormons show their true stripes and get vile and nasty. If anyone is curious about Mormonism, all they need do is come here and read the posts by Mormons. It's revealing how Mormons TRULY act, behind the facade of nice-nice, family values and the rest of their PUBLIC face. Behind that public face, there's a dark and evil, nasty side. When LDS reveal it, it's a perfect and clear view into how they act, and a wonderful deterrant to anyone who seeks information about Mormonism. But thanks for watching my back!  In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
solo, You know, I can actually hear your cackling laugh -- kinda like that scientist in that old black and white movie "Frankenstein." However that word was derived from the Greek word 'books' -- the same word used in the Septuagint in such expressions as 'the Book of Law' 1 Macc. 1:56. and 'the holy Books' 1 Macc 12:9. (Sirach, Vulg.) It was later, in the NT the Jewish sacred writings became referred to as the Latin 'Biblia' and this word was all inclusive to the OT and NT. So according to that good ole Oxford Dictionary of the Christan Church, pages 167-169 you're wrong. The Bible DID exist and had for the Jews prior to Christians using a new Latin term for it to distinguish it from the Jewish Bible. So when are you going to stop playing semantics, and start reading the Bible and come to know the true Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Don't keep putting it off, our redemption draweth nigh. Remember what Jesus said: Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Don't let that be you solo. In Christ alone I place my trust... | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
JD, READ THE BIBLE, OR ELSE | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 90 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Or else what x11?????  Seriously though -- what this is all about is denial. I can say that because I've been there done that and even have the T-shirt. Only apparently the LDS Church is even more controlling than the cult I was in (at the level I was). If an LDS did nothing but actually read and STUDIED the Bible they'd know the truth. When I was in The Way International (TWI) I read the Bible with TWI materials, pretty much every single day in addition to reading TWI books and listening to TWI tapes. I never really read the Bible as the source. I thought it to be a good teaching collection of books, not the REAL truth though. I needed WAY LEADERSHIP to TELL me what it was I was reading in the Bible. It wasn't until I actually found a mistake in Wierwille (founder's) teachings that I realized these supposedly infallible men were actually fallible -- and Wierwille was no exception. But even THEN I wouldn't abandon TWI teachings and TWI. How could I? I had invested what I felt to be so much of myself, my LIFE in being a Wayer. How could I turn away -- it was unthinkable and actually, I didn't even form that thought until we moved again and I was separated from the influence of the members. This, despite the fact the leaders didn't ACT Christian and I found a mistake in the teaching of supposedly the ONLY man given the "truth" about the Bible and salvation and the whole smear (Wierwille) since the Apostles. ALL other churches were corrupt. ALL other churches had misrepresented the Bible. The Bible was missing parts, translated improperly -- etc. Sounding familiar? That's why we had to have WIERWILLE and the TWI LEADERSHIP tell us what God was telling THEM so that we could be the ONLY TRUE BELIEVERS ON EARTH. LDS are taught that the BOM is what they should read and study and take to their heart. If the LDS here would actually take the TIME to look up the things we post here and to challenge us, they'd find out we're telling the truth. So they just stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and chant, "I'M NOT LISTENING, I'M NOT LISTENING, I'M NOT LISTENING!!" Because if they REALLY listened, if they REALLY looked up and tried to actually challenge what we're saying here, if they TRULY read and studied JUST the Bible -- they'd be faced with the truth. And as that famous movie line goes, "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH." I know, I was just like them. But the seed can be planted and for at least two here, it is planted. Praise be to God! In Christ alone I place my trust... | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
And ONCE AGAIN GRRRRRREEEEAAAAT JOB STEEL, X11, EGK, GODCHILD!!!  {the sound of cjv clapping, hooting and cheering in the background} Keep it up, keep telling the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and exposing false teachers and false organizations!!!! AMEN!! You guys ROCK!! 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. | ||
| corban2 (corban2) New member Username: corban2 Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 166.70.210.107 |
I can't believe what I'm reading. Are any of us actually Christian? Did Christ teach love or mockery? Did Christ die for our sin so that we can follow Him or make fun of those different from us? I am saddened. Seriously. Not only am I saddened by the attacks but the fact that many of you are rejoicing in your victories. We're all sounding (myself included) a lot like Pharisees. Goodness. I seriously am sickened by these posts. In response, quickly and un angerly. If those of other faiths that that of The Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints feel that the priesthood is a hinderence to coming to Jesus Christ, then that is your choice. Let's respect that. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ and I'll tell you first handedly that I don't feel this. I have performed miracles in Jesus name. The priesthood is biblical. Of course Jesus Christ was the ultimate High Priest, but if that's all you believe Him to be, then so be it. I know Him to by my Savior (can anyone argue with that?). However to say that the priesthood (which is to say simply, the power to act in God's name, or according to Webster's II, "2. A person having authority to perform religious rites.") was no longer needed is just your belief. If that were true, then can we credit the Apostles of having no authority to act in God's name. Does that mean Paul can not be credited because he became a disciple after Jesus' assension? CJV, you will most likely be angered by this post, then reply with a post that is angry. For you to say the Mormons aren't true, or that Jehovah's Witness aren't true, or Catholics aren't true, or the 100,000 sects of protestants (number exgaerated for laughs) aren't true is not your right. Respect my beliefs please, and I will respect yours. God willing we can all start acting like Christians. By the way CJV it appears you don't know very many Mormons, because the majority that I know do study the Bible quite intently. Feel free to mock me all you want. There is such strong anti-mormon sentiment going through these posts. I know you'll all gang up and try to disprove what I've said. Keep in mind everything I've written is only my opinion. I've always been heartbroken that people can claim to be a folowerer of Christ and be anti anything. Focus on Christ, not on intolerance for other's beliefs. Once again, I'll qoute C.S. Lewis. "It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense... When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian." C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1952), 11. God Bless You All. | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
Corban2, We do not have a problem with differences from other christian religions. We have a problem with religions that claim to be christian but do not follow the biblical teachings of Christ. You really need to read through all the posts in order to get a feel for what is going on here. Welcome to factnet hopefully you might be able to answer some of the many questions we have regarding mormonism that joesdad and solopilot have been ducking and dodging? | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
cjv, or else.....if jd would read the bible it will tell him what "or else" means. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 347 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
X11: Questions, can't remember you asking any - now if you refer to the childish baiting you attempt, well of course that will be ingored as expected. Fortunately I do read the Bible, so your gentle encouragement is appreciated but not necessary. | ||
| corban2 (corban2) New member Username: corban2 Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 166.70.210.107 |
x11 thank you for your post. If you really want to know answers to your questions, not just try and make other people feel dumb, then go to this link, http://www.fairlds.org/apol/antis/200205.html. Probably none of you want to know. If you really wanted answers, then we should talk face to face. This posting just makes us all a bit angry I think. We all think we're right and are trying to prove it. However, if we really studied it, we would find how shockingly similar all of our beliefs are. Read the C.S. Lewis qoute again, I think everyone is missing his point. His point is x11, corban2, joesdad, or even Ewen McGregor have no right to claim anyone is Christian or not. That is God's decision and judgement. I don't understand why you're so intent on trying to disprove Mormonism. Are you trying to convert me to your faith? If so, you haven't given any loving, Christian, or convincing arguements. Focus on Christ, all of you. Let those who are different from you be so. I always laugh when "christians" claim other sects that obviously follow Christ are "unchristian". I only know of one Jesus, I don't believe in a different one, Jesus of Nazereth, Mary's son. Just because you say I don't believe in Christ's teachings from the Bible (which is weird), or I dont believe exactly what you believe, doesn't make me unChristian. That's dangerous. For pete's sake, even if a man in the deep Amazon heard about Jesus Christ through some means and had never read the Bible, he's still a Christian to me friends. Christ lives. I love Him. He is my savior. God bless all of you. All of you. | ||
| corban2 (corban2) New member Username: corban2 Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 166.70.210.107 |
Anyway everyone, I made these posts on a break at work. I really don't have time to post here anymore. Don't think I'm running away. You may think I smell foul though. I did yesterday because I went for a hike. My last thouht is if anyone really does have questions about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then go to http://www.lds.org, or talk to a real life Latter-Day Saint. By the way, corban is both in the bible and a band of mine. You can check us out on purevolume.com. Anyway, good luck to all of you and may God bless you all. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 192 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.56 |
corban2, the shocking thing is you can't see how different we are in our beliefs. Saying you believe in 'two gods so far' said it all. I was probably a mormon before you were born. I have gone to the FAIR and lds sites, thanks, and what they don't disclose says more than what they do about their honesty. Sorry, but that is the truth. I would love to talk to you sometime. My email is on the threads somewhere. I would suggest you read them sometime if you want anyone to truly appreciate your comments, as only then can you truly appreciate mine and others who have had to repeat our stand numerous times. (boy, that was a long sentence, but I think you can understand it.) Go with God! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 193 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.56 |
Can I suggest that we take a little time over this holiday to remember who it is being celebrated for? God bless America, and especially our troops who cannot enjoy a long weekend with their families. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
corban, What I find absolutely outrageous and sickening is that an organization that has bizarre, strange UNChristian beliefs not only comes along and tells me that I as a Christian am in a "whore of a church" but then tries to tell me that Historical, Orthodox Christian beliefs -- the belief of now billions -- has been wrong for thousands of years. And this same cult DEMANDS I accept the Mormon teachings, about 200 years old, as the only "true" Christian beliefs. Now THAT'S sickening. I'm sorry for you, I truly, really am sorry for you and I only mock the audacity of an organization trying to tell me WHAT I BELIEVE AS A CHRISTIAN IS WRONG when this organization isn't even Christian! It is utterly ridiculous, but because this cult of Mormonism has a bunch of money, they can perpetuate this myth on so many, and so many have been abused by this church and that's wrong and that's sickening. But you're probably gone now and I'm sorry, but I hope someday, the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ will take the scales from your eyes and you will come to know the Jesus of the Bible. 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. "In Christ alone..." | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Thanks godchild for remembering our soldiers! May God bless them and God bless America! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 222 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.153 |
The Bible never makes a distinction of two different ways of salvation. There are not two hopes (See Eph. 4:4). There is only one body of saved or redeemed mankind. John 10:16, in context, validates this point, as it says Jesus is the only shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep. The other sheep are gathered into one flock, one shepherd. These other sheep are specifically identified, not as an earthly class or heavenly clas, but as Gentiles, joined together with the jews into the one hope (See Eph. 2:4-24). | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Amen godchild! On that great day, when the trump sounds and Jesus returns for His Bride -- THE CHURCH -- there is only ONE CHURCH -- and by definition -- "Church" means -- BODY OF BELIEVERS IN JESUS CHRIST (essentially). It does not mean the LDS Church founded in the 1800's -- to say the least. The LDS Church isn't even a Christian Church to begin with! The only other "Body" will be those cast away in the end, when we all stand before the Lord waiting to hear our name called out from the great book. The dead in Christ shall rise, then those still alive on earth will rise to meet them all in the sky -- what a day that will be!!! I dare say, there is no mention in the Bible -- even though this event is often and specifically described throughout the Bible -- that says the Lord will sound His trump and then visit all the billions of planet earths to let the LDS gods and goddesses practicing heavenly polygamy that it's time to go to heaven. Can't find a single Biblical reference to the Lord our God sounding that trump over and over and over again, billions of times so that all the LDS ruling over their own planet earths will know -- TIME TO GO! Can't seem to find that anywhere in the Bible strangely enough... In Christ alone... | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 298 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.99 |
The Holy Bible defines satan, (lucifer, devil, etc.) over thirty-five times, and yet not once was it ever hinted at that he was the brother of Jesus Christ. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 434 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Do you feel that your understanding is the same as the early Christian leaders? That is, do you think what you believe is the same as was believed in the first few centuries after Christ, or if they differ, what makes your modern beliefs right, and their's wrong? Also, in this context, which Christian church leaders do you consider reliable and authoratative? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 300 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.152.178.46 |
The Bible states that Christ appointed a replacement for Judas, who committed suicide. That does not mean that He was saying, "you must have appointed prophets and and apostles. Once those apostles taught all that was needed and they died, there was no further need for propets, apostles, popes, whatever name you want to call it. All of those teachings are in the Holy Bible.What I believe is what the Holy Bible tells us, that the Lord God 'is the same today, yesterday, and forever.' He does not 'change with the times'. The first christians were the same as they are today. They, as we, were/are still learning; that was the necessity of people Christ appointed (ex. Paul) who went to the churches and taught them how to follow the teachings of Christ and the foolishness (or emptiness) of the rituals practiced by the Jewish priests, (priesthood holders). The reason being is we each (when we accept Christ as our PERSONAL savior) recieve the Holy Spirit (God and Christ)to be the teachers, if you will, in our daily lives. If you do not believe that, then please explain what purpose there is for the Holy Spirit, when there are so many men who can do just as well in mormon estimation. In fact, what does the mormon god give you that you don't have in your prophets. Why do you, personally, not as a group, need God? Don't you believe that God is replaceable? Isn't your church teaching that God is replaceable? My God is not replaceable. That is the difference in Christian and mormon belief? We worship ONE, (1), God. Gospel Principles teaches that men will recieve all the adoration, power, etc. that God has. Why do you need our God? I believe there is a very real fear by every mormon or any other church member that teaches the plurality of gods, of letting HIM, the ONE and only God, go. The problem is, He has said you cannot have both. It's either HIM or what you now have in your church. There are many men and women who are "Christian church leaders" that do not go on any 'popular' list. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 459 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: It cleaerly states in the NT what positions should exist in the chursh, Prophets Apostles etc., can you guide me to where it explicitly states the length of time that this was relevant to - i.e. at what point it was no longer required to have these postions? We teach that evry man is a creation of God, and that in real terms when I hold the Priesthood worthily I am able to use whatever powe that God chooses to grant unto me - just the same as the Prophets. All of them are subject to God and cannot and will never be able to replace Him. I therefore assume that you concede there is no difference between Christain and Mormon belief. You misunderstand whatever you have read I am afraid. We do not receive all the power adoration etc that God has - it is His. We teach that we have one God, as you well know. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 415 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
The first christians were the same as they are today. They, as we, were/are still learning; that was the necessity of people Christ appointed (ex. Paul) who went to the churches and taught them how to follow the teachings of Christ and the foolishness (or emptiness) of the rituals practiced by the Jewish priests, (priesthood holders). Foolishness of rituals that God asked us to do??! Look, you can turn away from God and worship man-god idols all you want. But, please don’t blaspheme God by stating that His Eternal Laws are foolish or empty. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 461 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Yaakov: Out of interest how do you consider the Priesthood today? (I'm sure this could be the subject of a VERY long response, so a brief overview would be appreciated!) | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 417 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
I’m sorry Joesdad, I don’t understand your question. Could you be more specific? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 462 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
I saw worried it was a little too broad - what Priesthood(s) do you recognise as still existing, and what authority or duties do they have. As you may be aware LDS claim to hold the Aaaronic and Melchesidec Priesthoods - the former being the Lower Priesthood and the latter the Higher. Each has different responsibilities and duties. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 418 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
what Priesthood(s) do you recognise as still existing, and what authority or duties do they have. Priests currently exist in many Christian denominations, though they may be known as Fathers, Clerics, Reverends, or Ministers. Muslim priests are called Imans. I think Buddhists call their religious leaders priests. Since all these religions still exist, I would recognize that all these religious leaders are still existing. As for authority or duties, I can only speak of the Jewish religious leaders. I only have vague notions of other religious leader’s authority and duties. A long time ago, Judaism used the terms priests and reverends. Now, only the term Rabbi is used. The last central authority of Judaism was the Sanhedrin, which last existed before the Babylonian exile. A new Sanhedrin is attempting to be made in Israel in the last few years, but it is in infancy and is not widely recognized. A Rabbi is a person that has graduated from an accredited yeshiva. Only the Reform and Reconstructionist denominations widely accept female rabbis. Rabbis make Torah study and leadership of the synagogues as their occupation. They are not any holier than any one else. A rabbi is not able to intercede to God on anyone else’s behalf. Generally, a rabbi’s duties consist of: leading the congregation in prayer, visiting the sick in hospitals, attending morning minyan (ritual morning prayer), attending local shivas (mourning for the deceased’s family), being a resource for Jewish Law, being a contact to the gentile community, and providing teaching and direction in the schul (school for the youth). BTW, the Melchizedek that you refer to, was shown in the Tanakh as a pagan king. He wasn’t Jewish or a priest. I think the Old Testament refers to him as a Jewish priest. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 463 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Thanks for that. I've had a brief look for the reference to Melchizedek you mention but can't find one - can you suggest a site? Ta. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 419 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Hi Joesdad Here is an essay explaining Melchizedek in the Tanakh. I can’t paste it here since it incorporates Greek and Hebrew letters. Psalm 110 Analysis | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 467 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Yaakov: As I am sure you were expecting, I have another question: The writer of the article appears to be drawing a line under WHEN Abraham's paying of tithes came, and when he “entered into Hebrew Monotheism”. In my humble and probably very uneducated opinion, I thought that Abrahams status ought to run from the point that God’s covenant with him began. I understand that the covenant is made up of several blessings, that began before his meeting with Melchisedek. Maybe you could clarify that, from the point of view of Judaism? (rather than the point his name was changed) Is there a STRICT rule as to when a person may “enter into Hebrew Monotheism”? - i.e. any formal acts needing to be performed? | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 420 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Joesdad Maybe you could clarify that, from the point of view of Judaism? (rather than the point his name was changed) The Mark of the Covenant was deemed as occurring when Abraham was circumcised. Circumcision is the first commandment which is specific to the Jews. According to Gen 17:5-14, the formal entry into Judaism took place via the covenant of circumcision. In the early part of his life, before God renamed him, Jewish Law holds that Abram wasn’t Jewish. Is there a STRICT rule as to when a person may “enter into Hebrew Monotheism”? - i.e. any formal acts needing to be performed? I’m unsure of what you mean here. Are you asking how a person converts to Judaism? Are you asking about Abraham specifically? When you say “Hebrew Monotheism”, do you mean “Judaism”? As far as “strict” rules, the rules can vary depending on the Jewish denomination. However, the stricter denominations don’t accept converts from the less strict denominations. If a person wants to be considered Jewish by all denominations, then they would have to convert according to Orthodox rules. What did you think of the rest of the Psalm 110 Analysis? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 468 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Yaakov: The “Hebrew Monotheism" reference was from the analysis - was not sure if it meant anything more than conversion to Judaism. Interestingly, the analysis follows similar paths to analysis of LDS doctrine - the analysis having a goal to it, and that goal being to underscore the difference that makes all the difference. Something I wonder, and maybe you may be able to shed some light on, is why the writers of the NT, who were used to the traditions and laws of Judaism, willing to make what, from the article, should have been so glaring a mistake regarding their claims about Jesus, if the analysis is correct? Are there any laws higher that Jewish law - i.e. if God chose to have someone take a path that did not necessarily folow that set out for all others - which takes precedence? That is, if God were to want one man to have responsibilitites that were from both the tribe of Levi and the tribe of Judah (i.e. a king and priest) would that man be rejected under Jewish law? You will have spotted that LDS do not regard the Aaronic Priesthood as having been "done away" with in the Melchezedek. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 421 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Joesdad The “Hebrew Monotheism" reference was from the analysis - was not sure if it meant anything more than conversion to Judaism. The salient point here is that the tithing took place prior to Abram's name being changed to Abraham and his formal entry into Hebrew monotheism via the covenant of circumcision (Gen 17:5-14). In other words, since Abram was a Gentile at the time he received the blessing from Malki-Tzedeq, there is no basis to the claim that Melchizedek's priesthood is superior to Aaron's priesthood; they are independent priesthoods – one for Gentiles and one for Jewish people. Ah, here we go. Yes, the ritual of circumcision marked Abram’s conversion to Judaism. I suppose the author used Hebrew monotheism instead of Judaism because this was the first Jew. There wasn’t a Jewish “religion” at this time, so a descriptive phrase is used instead. Something I wonder, and maybe you may be able to shed some light on, is why the writers of the NT, who were used to the traditions and laws of Judaism, willing to make what, from the article, should have been so glaring a mistake regarding their claims about Jesus, if the analysis is correct? Simple. The guys that wrote the Greek Testament (a.k.a. New Testament) were either not Jewish or they were ignorant Jews. There are so many mistakes in the GT that the writers couldn’t possibly be learned Jews, as you have noticed yourself. Are there any laws higher that Jewish law - i.e. if God chose to have someone take a path that did not necessarily folow that set out for all others - which takes precedence? All of our Laws come straight from God. Jewish Law is synonymous to God’s Law. Since God is Eternal, God’s Law is Eternal. There is no place in the Tanakh where God said that His Laws were to be followed just until some man said otherwise. You will have spotted that LDS do not regard the Aaronic Priesthood as having been "done away" with in the Melchezedek. Huh?? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 469 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Yaakov: Thanks for your insights thus far. You did not answer:"That is, if God were to want one man to have responsibilitites that were from both the tribe of Levi and the tribe of Judah (i.e. a king and priest) would that man be rejected under Jewish law?" | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 423 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Joesdad Yaakov, You did not answer:"[Are there any laws higher than Jewish Law - ]That is, if God were to want one man to have responsibilitites that were from both the tribe of Levi and the tribe of Judah (i.e. a king and priest) would that man be rejected under Jewish law?" Well, I gave an indirect answer. I will answer more directly, then. You were trying to make a distinction between Jewish Law and God’s Law, but I explained that they are one and the same. I also explained that the Tanakh is Eternal. God doesn’t change His mind or His Laws, i.e. forbid one thing at one time and later allow it at a later time. Thus, God would not tell us that a man can NOT be both priest and king, and then later change His mind to allow it. This is a paste from the Psalm 110 analysis above: According to Torah, the royal office (which was the domain of the Tribe of Judah) and the office of the priesthood (which was the domain of the Tribe of Levi) are separate entities, so that a priest may not be a king, and vice versa. The plan for Israel is one that separates the functions of priesthood and monarchy; an idea that is similar to the concept known today as "separation of church and state". The Torah defines in Deuteronomy 17:14-20 the selection, qualifications, and duties of the king – the political leader. Starting with King David (2 Sam 7:12-16), it was required that kings of the Davidic dynasty had to be from the Tribe of Judah and biological descendants of King David through King Solomon. Deuteronomy 18:1-8, the passage in the Torah that immediately follows the passage about a king of Israel, describes the other category of leadership, the Priests and Levites - the spiritual leaders, who will all be from the Tribe of Levi. Therefore, in addition to their listed qualifications, the two positions, king and priest, are mutually exclusive. In other words, in Israel, a king cannot be a priest, and a priest cannot be a king. So, it is not a matter of Jewish Law rejecting such a claim. It is that God wouldn’t do it in the first place. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 135 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.202 |
Psalms 110:4 The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: You are a preist forever in the order of melchizedek. The second oracle has sworn. This sworn covenant to maintain David's Royal line forever. David and his sons, as cheif representatives of the rule of God; they performed many worship - focused activities,such as overseeing the ark of the covenant, building & overseeing the temple , and as well overseeing the work of the priest and levites and the temple liturgy. In all these duties they even execised authority over the high priest, but yet they were not allowed to engage inspecific priestly functions that had been asigned to the aaronic priesthood. In the present oracle the son of David (Jesus) is installed by GOD as king-priest in Zion after the manner of Melchizedek. (See Gen: 14:8) As such a king priest, he was apointed to a higher order of preisthood than that of Aaron and his sons. ( for the union of king and priest in one person see Zec: 6:13)The coming Davidic king will also be a priest. Although such a combination was not normally posible in Isreal,for this reason, the sect of Qumran (Essenes) exspected two messianic figures, a HIGH Priestly Messiah & a Davidic ONE, But the two offices would in fact be united in the ONE PERSON, OF THE MESSIAH. He became the last High Preist & the King Of Kings. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 428 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
All of your points are already covered in the analysis. Your reasoning is incorrect according to Judaism. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 136 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Yaakov ,Yes, according to Judaism. I have faith in the New Covenant & except Christ as My Eternal Savior. You do not except Christ and you do not adhere to the New Covenant. You are still bound by the Teacher (Law) and do not except Graduation into the Grace of the Savior. To the Christian it is Quite correct. Jesus was through the Tribe of Judah, The kingly Line,his mother was through the Tribe of Levi. The Qumran sect realized somthing wasn't right when the temple was destroyed. Jesus became the Temple(The High Priest of Priest & King of Kings) and through him alone , by his Grace we will have eternal salvation. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 430 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Ah, then we understand each other. You were just stating your beliefs before. Yes, you're correct. I maintain my belief in the Eternal God and His Eternal Laws. I am bound by God and do not accept idols. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 137 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Not Just my beliefs, But from the all of Biblical scripture. Again I know you don't adhere to the New covenant, But how much of the Old covenant do you adhere to. Just the books of Moses or More? Maybe you should create another thread ,before we get off track on this one. |
