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curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 1:43 pm: | 
|
Hello,
Mixing intentional communities with scripture has a long history of difficulties. Generally speaking, where religion is concerned if there is not 1) a committment of Scripture first and above all else and 2) if there is not open and public financial records (as is the case for all church non-profits) the stage is set for abuse of both freedom of religious beliefs and abuse of finances of the organization as well as its members' private funds. When such is the case, the religious functions all too often are intentionally screwed up smokescreens steering focus away from the organization's finances. Is the organization a non-profit? Are it's records open for all to see? Whose names are on all the financial and ownership documents? Is it a requirement for membership that the inductees monies and personal property become property of the organization? If one leaves the group what is considered theirs to be taken with them? Do the members have legal ownership (shares, land, etc) of any of the organizations property? These are but a few initial questions on my mind. I, as with others, first became aware of HH through the recent magazine article and, recently, this board; interest being possible membership. There appears to be a lot disagreement on doctrinal issues that seem to be centered around personal beliefs and opinions being placed above the Scriptures, ie personal interpretation of those in positions of power over rule Scripture. An apparent denial or unwillingness to openly study seeking to rightfully divide the Word seems obvious. But as long as this is the main thing that divides, furthers and maintains confusion then in all likelihood this is subterfuge keeping attention off of the real issue--following the money trail. The government cares not for the religious contentions, it cares only that all the T's are crossed and all the I's are dotted and there are names on the money documents. The people that truly control HH can be a 100% pure Christian group or they can be a hard core rip off cult or anything else they want to be so long as the government is happy with respect to the money. So, my question is real simple, whose names are on the bottom lines, on the bank accounts, and what, if any, means of property division is there for the members? |
charitygrace (charitygrace)
New member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.79.207.3
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
|
There are 3 levels of membership in HH--situational, transitional, and constitutional. Only constitutional members technically own community property and so on.
When I was there someone I know pressed for an answer about who was actually a constitutional member. At the time, I think it was 3 or 4 people. My understanding is that only those constitutional members actually own what belongs to the community (ranches, farms, businesses, etc.) I was surprised (to say the least) that there were so few...Maybe someone else can tell you more. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Intermediate Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 106
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.242
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
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What curious1 said is correct and not to be lightly dismissed, but I must remind everyone what the purpose of this forum is. It is to warn people, within HH and without, of the unbiblical Doctrine and practices which tend to weaken and, ultimately, bring into bondage the spiritual lives of its members. This forum is also a means to assist those deeply and negatively affected by these Doctrines and practices. While a part of that may include the financial aspect of turning over property to HH, once it has happened, it is, more or less, too late to remedy. The circumstances must meet legal criteria in order to have the property revert to the original owners. I don't know if those circumstances exist or not and it is not for me to determine if they exist or not.
This information provided by curious1, as well as information to be provided by others, though not necessarily helping those currently members of HH, nevertheless, does serve the purpose of warning those looking to join. I post this not to dismiss anyone, their intentions or their help, but, simply to provide a reminder.
Curious1, Thanks for pointing this out. I hope it can be a help to someone. |
math (math)
New member
Username: math
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.95.48.241
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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no truthbuyer you are wrong the financial issue is a huge part of it. if it i true that the leaders are in there just for money it shows how corrupt they realy are.  I'm disapointed in u for the fact that you tried to defend them on this issue. |
waawaa (waawaa)
Member
Username: waawaa
Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.112.0.204
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:15 am: |
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Proverbs 8:18-21
18 With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than fine gold; what I yield surpasses choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full. |
waawaa (waawaa)
Member
Username: waawaa
Post Number: 58
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.112.0.204
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:15 am: |
|
Matthew 6:1-4
1 “Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ...” |
waawaa (waawaa)
Member
Username: waawaa
Post Number: 59
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.112.0.204
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:34 am: |
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Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
2 Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.
3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.
4 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.
7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul.
8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.
9 And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
10 All my bones shall say, LORD, who is like unto thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him?
11 False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.
12 They rewarded me evil for good to the spoiling of my soul.
13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.
14 I behaved myself as though he had been my friend or brother: I bowed down heavily, as one that mourneth for his mother.
15 But in mine adversity they rejoiced, and gathered themselves together: yea, the abjects gathered themselves together against me, and I knew it not; they did tear me, and ceased not:
16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.
17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions.
18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people.
19 Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: neither let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.
20 For they speak not peace: but they devise deceitful matters against them that are quiet in the land.
21 Yea, they opened their mouth wide against me, and said, Aha, aha, our eye hath seen it.
22 This thou hast seen, O LORD: keep not silence: O Lord, be not far from me.
23 Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.
24 Judge me, O LORD my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me.
25 Let them not say in their hearts, Ah, so would we have it: let them not say, We have swallowed him up.
26 Let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt: let them be clothed with shame and dishonour that magnify themselves against me.
27 Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
28 And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness and of thy praise all the day long. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Intermediate Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 109
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.120
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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math,
Maybe I should have made my statements in a different way because, in no way whatsoever, was I attempting to defend anyone regarding the financial issue nor did I dismiss the financial issue as irrelevant or non-existent.
The money issue can be, an probably is an issue, but not with the bulk of HH membership. More than likely it is an issue limited, more or less, to the inner circle of Leadership, since they are the ones supposedly after the money(as you stated).
For the nost part, the bulk of HH members didn't join out of financial concerns. They were not after money. Because they were not, their decisions to leave were not based, ultimately, on strict financial concerns. They were interested in the immediate, as well as the long term spititual wellfare of their families which is far more valuable than any fiscal holdings they may have forfeited by joining.
You are correct in saying that it is a major issue. But it is not a major issue with most current HH members or ex-members. It is only an issue with those who pursue the mammon.
Because it is not a major issue with most, I reminded the readers that more immediate concerns are, hopefully, dealt with by these postings. Those in desperate spiritual straits are looking beyond earthly possessions for help. Maybe this forum can be a legitimate means to be able to point them to the proper Refuge. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Intermediate Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 110
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.120
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
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waawaa,
Thanks for the great postings of Scripture! Appropriate, indeed!! |
math (math)
New member
Username: math
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.95.48.241
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
|
thank you truthbuyer for clearing that up and i was just trying to say that the leaders say they are so holy and everything but they are buying new cars and other luxuries while some of the members are going hungry and not even getting some of the basics. Don't you think that this will point out a flaw to some and mabey they can start looking at things from a different point of view that they may not have seen before. and mabey it isnt the primary issue here but i do think that it could help some. waawaa i don't know exactly what you were trying to say in those scriptures but the leaders help no one except themselves so i don't see why they would get blessed. I'm sorry if i missinterpreted what you were trying to say though. |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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The mass majority of members are seldom, if ever, aware of the true aspects involving the financial affairs in organizations such as these. Generally speaking, they're in it for some form of spiritual enlightenment and, often, a cheap to free place to live as well as other issues such as the disenfranchised, the emotionally disturbed, the youthful, the homeless, etc. For all intents and purposes, they're the blinded ones when it comes to the inner workings of the organization. Nor is it uncommon for the cooperative, collective or communal housing to be separated from the actual income producing entities.
One other thing I might mention, with respect to "consensus", far more often than not, consensus is nothing more, in the end analysis, than just a lot of talk with seldom seeing any real action ever being resolved with things just getting talked ad nauseum to death and, especially in housing coops, those at the lower echelon are too busy trying to agree on what often is ittle more than trivial (even more so where religious issues are concerned) issues to ever be able to advance to the real issues involving financial and investment matters. Also, when this happens consensus, consensus blocking, endless talking and such become purposefully misused tools whose only and cloaked purpose is to prevent any true form of group advancement or agreement; in other words, frequently there are hidden agendas where consensus is involved.
The only corporations listed with the State of Texas under the name HH (with Waco, Houston, Austin or San Antonio registered agent addresses) have at various dates in the past been dissolved.
Corporations with variations on the name do exist, however, (aside from registered agents, etc) principal parties all have owners' addresses listed in Florida and, with just the name (HH, and cognates) there is little guarantee we're even looking at the correct entity(s). So, actual names or other info would be needed to cross reference and more easily chase down with any greater degree of accuracy.
With respect to Brazos de Dios name, there are too many corporate listings with that name, many of which, also, have long since become defunct and dissolved. Some do have Waco addresses as well as other addresses throughout the state. Again, more info (names, etc) would be needed to correctly identify which organizations are related to HH/Brazos de Dios.
It is interesting that there are (both live and dissolved) non-profits with these names that also specify "candlemaking", "food bank", and similar "purposed" names. Often, these types of entities (for such purposes), especially, things like food banks, receive state and other charitable funds and food for those that qualify for state aid and food stamps and this is not uncommon in housing cooperatives, etc which offset the organization's funds that would otherwise be used to feed the "masses" that perform much of the labor thereby "increasing" the corp's bottom line.
It is not uncommon, when chasing the paper trail, to run into a series of both live and defunct corporate entities as they continually evolve over time in an ongoing attempt to develop an acceptable series of entities that function as best as possible and also yield the greatest income for the few at the top.
Without some more current corporate names, human names, or other identifying info it's a guessing game when researching the S.O.S.'s records for this sort of data.
When records like this are so convoluted, hidden, altered, etc, particulary and especially, when on public face value it is held up as a religious organization then it's true motives are, imo, highly suspect, and not something to either join or invest in and this pattern almost always also goes hand in hand with the obvious convoluted religious teachings and views.
Please bear in mind, that these are my views based on my own experiences with many of these sorts of groups and organizations since the mid-sixties and that while I'm not stating this is the situation within HH and even though some of what I have described may sound like HH it is only coincidental and can only be verified by actual past or present members. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 270
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 2:30 am: |
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Ya'll are simply pathetic and desparate, scratching at wimpy straws. As to the silly insinuations about financial indiscretions, it is further proof that this pack of wolves wants to shut down HH for vengance, not reach the " lost " ( not my words, theirs ) with the " truth " about their " false doctrines ( their words ). This is simply an agenda, to be accomplished at any cost, and these allegations that are being alluded to are going to wash out like the rest of your pathetic lies. I , being a former member, who did have my odds and disagreements, am disgusted with your lies, and I love these people, and stand with them against your brash and wicked deceits. I will do EVERYTHING, I REPEAT, EVERYTHING IN MY POWER, to fight and combat these filthy and intentional lies and misleading suggestions.} |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 5:39 am: |
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Ghost,
Member "real_truth" is flaming in numerous threads purposefully disrupting all communication between other members in the Homestead Heritage forum.
Would you please ask this person to cease?
Thank you,
curious1 |
math (math)
New member
Username: math
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.188.237.151
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:30 am: |
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to real_truth,
if they are so right then why aren't you a member.
If you were a former member then why do you think that you know what they realy believe, you only see what they want you to. Finally this is not an agenda to destroy HH for revenge you have no proof. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:00 pm: |
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Dear Math,
If you don't see an agenda being advanced by many of you here, then I think you are reading a different web page than I am.
Personally, I don't think you realize what is taking place here. If you did recognize it for what it actually is, and if you had any integrity, you would not be here saying the things that you are saying.
Not trying to be mean or rude, just trying to be honest with you. |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
|
There is no bonafide Christian organization that i am aware of that implements avoidant practices and refuses to provide on request statements of faith and (legally required) recent non-profit financial statements.
That being the case, the supposition is that HH, if it is, indeed, a truly right and good Christian organization, would not ever shy away from and would be more than happy to present said documents when requiested.
1...Would an HH member please copy-paste a full and complete HH statement of faith into this thread?
2...Also, would an HH member please post herein a current non-profit financial statement as required by state and IRS rules.
3...or, at the least, please post a current and valid physical address complete with contact person's name and phone number where one might obtain the requested information as so required?
Thank you all. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 272
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 1:14 am: |
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Curious1, your ignorance knows no bounds, nor does your silly arrogance and emulation.
Asking the " ghost " ( certainly not the Holy one ) to cause me to cease and desist only proves that this forum is not a forum for former members to sound off, but rather one for only embittered and angry members to sound off. You cannot silence me, so hush up and quit wasting your breath. As to your demands of a " statement of faith ", there are countless legally registered
" non-denominational " churches that do not have a statement of faith. As to your usage of the word " bonafide " as to churches, I wonder if the churches in Red China count as bonafide to you? You are quite an ignorant1, it is no wonder you are so curious. I would be also if I lived in the pitch dark.
As to your lie that the " law requires " that HH capitulate to your tyranical demands and post its financial records " herein " as you claimed is legally required, get a life. There is no such law.
You are violently arrogant. I have never seen any post herein that surpasses the level of ignorance and vile disdain as your's have. May God be merciful to you. Maybe. Hopefully. |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 1:35 am: |
|
if at first you don't succeed...
There is no bonafide Christian organization that i am aware of that implements avoidant practices and refuses to provide on request statements of faith and (legally required) recent non-profit financial statements.
That being the case, the supposition is that HH, if it is, indeed, a truly right and good Christian organization, would not ever shy away from and would be more than happy to present said documents when requiested.
1...Would an HH member please copy-paste a full and complete HH statement of faith into this thread?
2...Also, would an HH member please post herein a current non-profit financial statement as required by state and IRS rules.
3...or, at the least, please post a current and valid physical address complete with contact person's name and phone number where one might obtain the requested information as so required?
Thank you all. |
just_curious (just_curious)
Advanced Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 535
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.227.84.69
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
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HOMESTEAD HERITAGE
Address 608 DRY CREEK RD
WACO, TX 76705-5409 Map View
IRS Subsection 501(d) - A religious and apostolic association.
Type of Organization Partnership
Deductibility Contributions are NOT deductible
Tax I.D. Number 742600904
Exempt Since 01-1993
Form 990 Requirment Not required to file 990
Activity #1 Religious order
http://www.melissadata.com/lookups/np.asp?ein=742600904 |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
|
From: }Texas Secretary of State Office:
Filing #: 119124901
Original date of filing: May 3, 1991
Formation Date: N/A
Tax ID: 17426009043
Duration: Perpetual
Entity Type: Domestic Non-Profit Corp.
Entity Status: VOLUNTARILY DISSOLVED
Non-Profit Typre: N/A
FEIN:
Name Homestead Heritage
Address: 608 Dry Creek Rd
Waco, Texas 76705 USA
Registered Agent: Mark Sherman
Address: 6412-A Gholson Road
Waco, Texas 76705 USA |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.162.144.69
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:45 pm: |
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Curious1,
Would you please explain to the rest of us what you are trying to do? All we have presently have to go by is your apparent vendetta against Homestead. If you are trying to accomplish something other than harm against the folks out at HH, we would sure like to hear about it. If you do not make your intentions clear, now, I am afraid you will be written off as a hired gun and anything of value you may have will consequently be written off as the ramblings of a mad man. Personally, the more you write the more bitter and vindictive you seem, that's just me though.
If you can muster the courage, all of us here would like to know who you are and why you are here. I realize that is asking alot because most men of your brand tend to enjoy lurking in the darkness, for fear that their evil deeds be exposed to the world. It would help your reputation alot if you could find a way to be honsest about yourself with all of us here. Just a suggestion. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Intermediate Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 111
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.46
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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realtruth,
As to your lie that the " law requires " that HH capitulate to your tyranical demands and post its financial records " herein " as you claimed is legally required, get a life. There is no such law.
Is this statement of yours based on your first hand knowledge of the law or is it simply a denial of what Curious1 said?
} |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 7:01 pm: |
|
oh, yes, indeedeedoo, non-propfits are required to submit current financial statements when asked.
And, regardless of denomination or faith, bonafide religious groups never hesitate in producing such on request just as there is never any hesitation in producing a statement of faith.
But, then, that only applies to bonafide religious groups that are honest and have nothing to hide. |
just_curious (just_curious)
Advanced Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 549
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.205.244.62
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:47 am: |
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Maybe HH isn't non-profit? |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |
|
Foreign corporations are other state corporations that have registered to operate (in this case) in Texas.
Assuming this is "the" HH they have, after a number of dissolutions finally filed in Florida and then registered in Texas as a "foreign" corporation. I don't find any "active" corporations listed as HH in Texas.
Filing Number: 10060606
Entity Type: Foreign Business Corporation
Original Date of Filing: June 24, 1994
Entity Status: In existence
Formation Date: N/A
Tax ID: 15932391194 FEIN:
Name: HERITAGE PARTNERS GROUP XI, INC.
Address: 5505 N ATLANTIC AVE, STE 115
Cocoa Beach, FL 32931 USA
Fictitious Name: HERITAGE HOMESTEAD, INC.
Jurisdiction: FL, USA
Foreign Formation Date: N/A
REGISTERED AGENT
Name Keith Short
Address 11 GREENWAY PLAZA, STE. 1520
Houston, TX 77046 USA
I do find, however, many corporations throughout the state with the name "Brazos de Dios" either as the name or as part of the name; before we can trace that any further we need more identifying info.
itmt, if this Florida corp IS HH it appears the corp holders have moved their operation to a retirement state where they can better enjoy the fruits of others abused religious and labor. Though this does need to be verified with the state of Florida Secretary of States Office. |
mic_s (mic_s)
New member
Username: mic_s
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
|
Ok, guys here goes.
About financial records, non-profit status and such. I have some information and have done a little research.
First of all there are two entities. Homestead Heritage and Heritage Ministries.
Hertiage Ministries is the church (not sure how they file) and Homestead Heritage is the business that is on file as a
501(d)Tax-Exempt Organization.
In Mclennan County in their public property tax files they have property under both names.
This information is open to the public and can be viewed at www.mclennancad.org.
According to this public website maintained by Mclennan County. Heritage Ministries has property appraised at approx. $1,785,119.00 with exemptions and agricultural deductions (approx. $2,322,058 market value) and Homestead Heritage has property appraised at approx. $570,763.00 with exemptions and agricultural deductions (approx. $651,764.00 market value). This is in addition to any property they may have in Colorado and Oklahoma as well as other assets, of course.
As far as either organization having to release their financial records upon request, curious1 is right, they do according to law (www.irs.gov), but they do not have to upon request of a posting on a website board. The request has to be made in writing or in person. There are laws governing how long they have to release said records and the reasonable fee that they can charge (approx $1.00 for the first pg and .15 for each additional page). So here are the physical addresses as listed by McLennan county
Homestead Heritage
608 Dry Creek Rd
Waco, TX 76705
Heritage Ministries
496 Halbert Ln
Waco, TX 76705
Below is a little information about a 501(d) organization (and other tax-exempt org.) from the www.irs.gov website.
A religious or apostolic organization exempt from income tax under section 501(d) must file Form 1065 to report its taxable income, which must be allocated to its members as a dividend, whether distributed or not. Such an organization must figure its taxable income on an attachment to Form 1065 in the same manner as a corporation. The organization may use Form 1120, U.S. Corporation Income Tax Return, for this purpose. Enter the organization's taxable income, if any, on line 6a of Schedule K and each member's pro rata share in box 6a of Schedule K-1. Net operating losses are not deductible by the members but may be carried back or forward by the organization under the rules of section 172. The religious or apostolic organization also must make its annual information return available for public inspection. For this purpose, “annual information return” includes an exact copy of Form 1065 and all accompanying schedules and attachments, except Schedules K-1. For more details, see Regulations section 301.6104(d)-1.
On April 8, 1999, the IRS issued T.D. 8818, amending the regulations implementing IRC section 6104 of the Code. The amendments generally require tax-exempt organizations (other than private foundations) to provide copies of certain tax documents to requesting individuals; these tax documents are usually to be provided immediately in the case of in-person requests and within 30 days in the case of written requests. The tax-exempt organization may charge a reasonable copying fee plus actual postage, if any. These disclosure requirements are in addition to the requirement that tax-exempt organizations must make their tax-documents available for public inspection.
What does the law require a tax-exempt organization to do?
In response to a written or in-person request by an individual at the principal office of the organization, and if such organization regularly maintains one or more regional or district offices having three or more employees, at each such regional or district office, a copy of the covered tax documents shall be provided to the requester. If the request for copies is made in person, the request will generally be honored on the day of the request; if the request is written, then the organization usually has thirty days to respond. (A request that is faxed, e-mailed or sent by private courier is considered a written request.)
The organization may want to charge reasonable copying costs and the actual cost of postage before providing the copies. The law permits this. But, the organization must provide timely notice of the approximate cost and acceptable form of payment, which must include cash and money order (in the case of an in-person request) and certified check, money order, and personal check or credit card, in the case of a written request.
Public Disclosure FAQ #10
What are the penalties for failure to comply with the disclosure requirements, and who must pay them?
Responsible persons of a tax-exempt organization who fail to provide the documents as required may be subject to a penalty of $20 per day for as long as the failure continues. There is a maximum penalty of $10,000 for each failure to provide a copy of an annual information return. There is no maximum penalty for the failure to provide a copy of an exemption application.
If a request for copies is not fulfilled, to whom may the requester complain?
The complaint should be addressed to the TE/GE Division, Customer Service.
Public Disclosure FAQ #13
How can one get a copy of an organization's exemption application or annual information return from the IRS?
To request a copy of either the exemption application or the annual information return, submit Form 4506-A, Request for Public Inspection or Copy of Exempt Organization IRS Form. Mail the form to the applicable address listed below:
IF you want... THEN mail Form 4506-A to...
A copy of an exemption application Internal Revenue Service
Customer Service - TE/GE
P.O. Box 2508, Room 2023
Cincinnati, OH 45201
A copy of a return, report, or notice Internal Revenue Service
P.O. Box 9941, Stop 6716
Ogden, UT 84409
you may verify an organization's tax-exempt status and eligibility to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions by requesting to see an organization's IRS letter recognizing it as tax-exempt or directly calling the IRS (toll-free) at 1-877-829-5500.
Hope this helps
mic_s} |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 31
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
|
Thank you, Mic_S, for this information.
Ok, so we have:
Heritage Ministries = the church
and
Homestead Heritage = the business
so, where and how does:
Brazos de Dios (presumably = members' housing)
fit in to this puzzle? What is the structure and who is listed?
with this we can start to sort everything out and put the pieces all together. Also, who is listed on the two HH structures and what happens to the assets (of all three organizations) upon dissolution? |
mic_s (mic_s)
New member
Username: mic_s
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 2:50 pm: |
|
Brazos De Dios is just the name on the sign over the entrance to the land but the actual property (land, mobile homes ie:housing, cabins, church office, church building, open air tabernacle, furniture, vehicles, inventory, etc.)falls under either Heritage Ministries or Homestead Heritage according to the McLennan County appraisal records. As far as what would happen to the assets if they shut down I would assume that the founder at the very least would be taken care of. I would imagine that you would find this out upon inquiring for their records from them and/or the IRS. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 32
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
|
Using the link you've provided and typing in Heritage Ministries and Homestead Heritage the name JOSEPH RUTHERFORD predominantly pops up on all 36 (?) pieces of listed property. Any idea who this is? |
mic_s (mic_s)
New member
Username: mic_s
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
|
Joseph Rutherford is the original name on the county survey before said property was sold to Heritage Ministries, Homestead Heritage and many others in that area. He was the original owner at the time of the survey (a long time ago) and owned a large portion of land that has since been parceled up and sold. It's just the way the county keeps it's records.
(Message edited by mic_s on May 15, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
|
mic_s, curious1, and whomever else is in your camp, I have posed this question once already but I guess ya'll are to busy scheming to answer it.
What is the point of this thread????
Your silence, in not answering me, is deafening and your cowardliness is shameful. If ya'll are preparing a lawsuit, COME OUT AND SAY IT!! If you are not, then say that too!!
I am just warning ya'll, when and if you finally "expose" HH's financial situation, you will be ashamed of yourselves for even trying this route to defame them. You may be able to find some descrepancy that you can twist into something bad, but if you do it will just be one more example of a bitter person(s) blaming everyone else for their problems. I believe you are in reality blaming God for your problems, by attacking this church.
If you think I am wrong please tell me, I am sure you will. Actually, I am not sure you will. Ya'll have all been to cowardly to answer my first question!!! |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
thanks, mic_s, we've covered a lot of initial ground in a relatively short period of time. I think we can start assembling bits and pieces. after which it will be interesting to see just where the corporate owners stand on all this including to what extent they are aware of the cultic aspects, abuse of lower echelons, and to what extent all of this has their permission. |
the_general (the_general)
New member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.5.167
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
|
Dowen,I think your wrong.You asked |
the_general (the_general)
New member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.5.167
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 7:10 pm: |
|
I feel that the motive of the leadership of HH is not about money or wealth. Blair Adams lives very comfortably and yes if all HH assets were liquidated He may benefit. However I think that it is also possible that HH has a lot of debt.I believe that the motivation has more to do with the dream of creating a utopian community by implementing his vision of what that should look like and controlling peoples lives to create that community, also his view of himself and the reverance of people toward him as Jesus' authority on earth.
(Message edited by the_general on May 15, 2005) |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 7:31 pm: |
|
[Quote: "I believe that the motivation has more to do with the dream of creating a utopian community by implementing his vision of what that should look like and controling peoples lives to create that community"]
successful communitees are not formed by controlling peoples lives for that is sick as it is manipulative and displays an inability of an individual to control his own life.
successful communities are formed by allowing others to control their own lives and beliefs.
successful communities are formed by leaders that serve those that follow them; not the other way around.
[Quote: "his view of himself and the reverance of people toward him as Jesus' authority on earth"]
It is a lie for anyone to command reverence that is alone due Jesus Christ; any that command such for themselves are not true Christians but lowly sham cult con brain washing artists.
NO one stands between Jesus and those of His flock; any that attempt to do so are of the devil. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Intermediate Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 112
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.162
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 8:25 pm: |
|
curious1,
Your postings containing legal information have been correct. And most of your other statements and conclusions have also been right on; but, I urge caution about stepping up the level of accusations about Satanic involvement.
According to I Corinthians, I, as a husband, am the head of my wife. I have a certain amount of authority, reiterated throughout Scripture, to "come between my wife and Jesus" in various areas (this includes my children also). According to your strict statement, I would be "of the devil."
I believe I understand your intent with this statement; but, I would urge you to be careful about aligning certain people with the devil. This is the type of judgment Jesus warned about when He said, "Judge not lest ye be judged."
We are not, however, relieved from the general duty of making proper judgments about a host of everyday matters, some of which may be unpleasant.
Pointing out those actions and accurately assessing them is a godly exercise. Assessing a person as "of the devil" is an entirely different matter.
I believe your information has been helpful and needed. I would love to see it stay that way. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
|
the only point I was attempting to make is that there is none that stands between the believer and Jesus. |
mic_s (mic_s)
New member
Username: mic_s
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 8:59 pm: |
|
Dear Daniel,
I'm sorry that I didn't answer you before but your question wasn't addressed to me but to Curious1 (I guess I got lumped in later?).
Curious1 was asking a question about HH's financial status and asking for their legal address to be contacted so I answered him since no one else did (or would).
All HH's property records are public information as is everyone's (mine, yours, the President of the United States). Did you know that?
Also because they are a tax-exempt 501(d) organization and non-profit church their financial records must be made public upon proper request. That is the law of the land.
I was merely answering his question.
As for scheming, filing a lawsuit, etc. Sorry, Daniel, I was just answering his question because I am NOT a coward (besides I have no earthly idea who curious1 is). You could've done the same, politely answered his question.
So there's your answer from a "coward".
mic_s |
mic_s (mic_s)
New member
Username: mic_s
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
|
Dear Curious1,
As an ex-member I believe what the_general stated is correct. The motivation is not about money (though living very comfortably is definitely a plus) so much as it is about this utopian community, this vision or dream of Blair Adams and "his view of himself and the reverence of people toward him as Jesus' authority on earth". It is a lie and that is what we would like people to realize (those common folk that are there and those visiting or thinking of joining HH).
They (the founder and other leaders) are not wealthy in the sense of say maybe some T.V. evangelists or someone of that nature but they are quite comfortable.
There are those though that are supported by Heritage Ministries or Homestead Heritage that "pour their lives out" and some are quite poor. They (the regular folks) don't all drive new cars, live in remodeled homes, etc. There are families, widows, widowers, single moms, single dads, single ladies that are supported "by the church" and they don’t all have a lot. It is Truth_hunter's story. It is as he told it and there are more stories like that from over the 30+ years of their history that could be told . It's not an even distribution of money, some have a lot and some have very little. Some have nice homes (or remodeled mobile homes), some don’t. Some drive new cars, some drive hand me downs. Any money is spread out over quite a few that are supported by HH and it is not always a lot or an even distribution. It depends on where you're at on the totem pole.
There are also folks that don’t live on HH’s property or who are supported by HH. These folks may own there on businesses or work for someone else. They support Heritage Ministries with their tithes and their time, their resources, their sweat.
There are no "corporate owners" unaware of the cultic aspects. All those involved live on or near Homestead Heritage.
It really is as the_general stated a community built on a dream, a vision of the founder, Blair Adams.
For him personally he and his family are well taken care of above all others. He and his family are revered and their every need is met; their gardens, animals, home, yard, are taken care of by the community. They have full time help. Their younger children are schooled at least part of the time by a volunteer.
Also his married oldest daughter and married second oldest son and their families are revered leaders, supported by HH as well. They don't need a ton of money because they have all the help they could get. Those directly below him in leadership make sure his and his families every need are met .
There lives would be lost without this I think because they have functioned like this for a long, long time now. In Colorado and in Texas. You see, it's not a huge organization. It's not about getting rich it’s about this dream, this vision of Blair Adams’. Sad but true. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
|
mic_s,
Thanks for the answer, or somewhat of an answer.
I reread my earlier posting, and you are correct, I didn't directly ask you the purpose of this thread, so I apolagize for "lumping you in".
Yes, I realize there are many records that are available to the public, I use MCAD on a daily basis. That is why I refused to do curious1's dirty work for him! My opinion is if he wanted that information so badly, he should have gone and gotten it himself! Personally I feel that he want's to drag as many people down with him as he goes. I may be wrong, but I do not want to be guilty by association with any such man. Your answer, "he just asked a question, so I answered it" is pretty sad in my estimation. The most common excuse of a war criminal is, "I was just following orders". I am not saying you are a criminal by any means, just think about it.
I have no idea who you are and you don't know who curious1 is, don't you think before we pass financial information to strangers we should at least know who they are??
Thanks again for at least trying to answer me, I am still waiting on curious1 to step up to the plate... |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 42
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:00 pm: |
|
Also, about this "vision" and "dream" business you and the General have raised. Haven't you ever heard that without a vision, a people will perish? So what if you don't like their visions and dreams, any of those members can leave if they decide they don't like HH's vision, like I assume you did! All of you keep forgetting that the members of HH all volunterally joined! They all decided they supported this "dream and vision" so they threw in their lot behind it! Is that not their right as free thinking citizens of a so called free country!!??
When a respectable person quits a job, he does not go out and tell everyone he finds that his former employer was using "mind control tactics' to keep him employed! If that were the case then he never would have quit! And yet many of you leave HH and tell everyone you can find that exact thing! I simply can not understand that apparent conflict of intrests. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 37
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
|
Mic_s,
Thank you for your dispassionate explanation of the facts, which is what I have been seeking all along. Since the 60's I have been involved in all levels of numerous communal organizations, some religious in nature and some not so religious in nature. One of my first posts explained that my initial interest was as the result of the CT article and that my interest was one of seeking information with the possible interest of becoming a member. Over the decades we have all heard of assorted communes that drastically ended because of leaders' cultic misuse of God's Word and of those followers that vested their faith, energy and monies in those leaders. Hence the reason for seeking more definitive information. Granted, as others have herein pointed out, there are always those ex-members that speak to the extremes of their discontent, extremes that blow things far out of proportion than what it actually should be. Personally, I do not believe anyone ever comes between a believer and Jesus. This is not to say that someone in the position of leadership be it a business or a church (which, technically, is a business) should not be accorded due and proper respect for he should, indeed, be accorded such. But he should never attempt to stand in between that private relationship. It is true that in the case of a religious organization the leader's responsiblity increases proportionate to his authority but not to the point that he stands in (for example) as a pope, which is wrong. By the same token, those being led, taught and taken care of owe the leader due respect. Then again, the leader should never view himself above those he serves for a true leader is a servant. This is true in everything from religion to government.
Perhaps the largest concern is to what degree the Scriptures are being distorted to support personal views, aims, goals and objectives. How much of what i have read on the board here is true and how much is simply blown out of proportion rantings of the discontented? This has been a major issue with respect to many new religious groups, churches and communal organizations over the past several decades from everything from the hippie Rainbow groups to Jim Jones type groups to Gaskin's Farm to Pentacostal homeless shelters and so on. Undeniably, there is a far greater judgment of leaders that improperly use the Scriptures to manipulate followers for personal gain and, yet, that does not absolve the rest of us of the responsibility from speaking up when such is recognized. Good leaders, by the same token, will be ready and willing to make adjustments when rightfully called to account as well. Then, again, in defense of established systems, there are always (what has been referred to as) thirty day wonders that walk in and suddenly have new and better ways of doing things without any understanding of the many and varied aspects of a business or, for that matter, their lack of understanding of Christian doctrines and result in what is tantamount to little kids throwing a stomping little snit fit because they can't have things their way.
Obviously, HH must be doing something right to have lasted this long. And that is appealing. The big question, however, is how close are they to following Christian teachings and to what extent might they be abused for the benefit of the business aspects and to what extent are the leaders willing to alter their religious and business practices to more properly align with scriptural principles?
Ideally, a communal organization with a Mennonite approach to living and a Berean attitude toward the Scriptures would, imo, be very close to the way the New Testament church was approached in the book of Acts. This was my initial thought of HH when reading the recent CT article. So my question to both the current and past members of HH is, "is it?"
1 Peter 2:19-20, "For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God."
(Message edited by curious1 on May 17, 2005) |
the_general (the_general)
New member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 12:37 am: |
|
Dowen, Many people and groups have had visions and dreams and some have been good, some have been bad. Just because the fellowship,or Blair in particular, have a dream or vision doesn't make it from God. The problem is that when that dream is as strong and persuasive as the fellowship's and you are raised in it,it is very difficult to see through the faultiness of that vision. Your perspective of God, family, relationships and life in general are all seen through the filter of the training and years of indoctrination that you have been through. You are trained not to accept critisism of the teachings, patterns and leadership(please don't think I am refering to your dad)and to dismiss any negative things that happen there as if they are not really true. As for people who voluntarily joined, they had to give up their own ways of seeing things and adopt the new way, eventually losing the ability to really see the truth of how things really are. They in effect are not free thinking citizens anymore. I know that this may be hard for you to accept but I hope that you will consider these things.
(Message edited by the_general on May 18, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 12:19 pm: |
|
General, I happen to agree with your point regarding those who grew up in Homestead, to an extent. I don't think any minor would be able to see through the faultiness or goodness of any "vision". It is the parents job to bring that child growing up at HH to the place that when it comes time to "see through the vision" that he will be able to make an educated decision whether or not that "vision" is for him. That is how my father treated me, when I became of age he told me it was time to make a decision. I decided that HH's vision was not for me so I left. As simple as that. No condemnation from them, although there were some warnings, nothing but love and alot tears that I was leaving.
I will point out that if what you are saying is true, than any adult who joins HH is a blind fool for buying into HH's vision! I don't think you truly believe that, but if you continue on with your train of thought, that is where it leads. I am not trying to be rude to you but HH is not a "mind controlling" group, if there even is such a thing at all. Your whole school of thought is based on the fact that HH is a mind controlling group sucking people in and never letting go. Personally I am convinced that "mind control" is not even scientificlly possible. Which is one of the reasons for believing and saying some of the things I have said. |
just_curious (just_curious)
Advanced Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 559
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.227.84.69
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
|
Personally I am convinced that "mind control" is not even scientificlly possible.
dowen,
Maybe you can define what you mean by "mind control"? Do you believe psychological coercion, unethical influence, or mind conditioning are possible? What about spiritual deception? |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
|
Dowen, HH uses examples such as "The Manchurian Candidate" and other psychological brain warping to turn humans into robots, as their definition of mind control. I agree with them on this point. God has given us a free will, and no one can take that from us, making us into mindless clone like machines. However, this is not the definition of mind control that I am using when I say that HH is a mind control cult. To me mind control is the use of fear and intimidation, by self appointed Apostles who deceive the elect into believing they alone have the truth, that they alone have/know the true will of God.
Mt. 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform
great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible.
Mat 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1Jo 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Ga. 2:4 This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated
our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and
to make us slaves.
But Paul goes on to say,
Ga. 2:5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of
the gospel might remain with you.
Ga. 2:6 As for those who seemed to be important - whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by
external appearance - those men added nothing to my
message.
Look at the Branch Davidians, Go read their posts on this board by the young people who grew up there. They defend him as a great man, one who loved and cared for them, a man of principle and good character.
Dowen this is just another area that you see through HH vision as The General was trying to help you see.
Truth Hunter
(Message edited by truth hunter on May 18, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
|
Just_curious, I will respond more in depth to your question later when I have more time. I will point out that the whole "mind control" issue to me seems to be nothing more than a way for some to escape feelings of guilt after having left a place like Homestead. I know that when I left I had to deal with a great burden of guilt. Guilt that I had left my siblings without their oldest brother living in the house, guilt that I had turned my back on people that I knew loved me, guilt and doubts over whether I had made the right decision and much more than I could ever list here. At that time in my life the easiest way to deal with it was to say "HH was just a mind controling group, and the feelings I have are just leftovers from that controling enviroment". As I ventured out into this wide world we live in I realized that control was all around me, everywhere I looked. The TV told me what to say on dates and how I should act in certain situations to look "cool". The newspapers told me their versions of the news, without regard to what the news really was. Magazines and commercials told me how to dress and comb my hair if I wanted to "fit in". Control was all around me, BUT I CHOSE TO ACCEPT IT. When I was at HH, I chose not to accept their "control", so I traded it in for another form!
It is very easy to say a group or organization that looks different than what is accepted as the "norm", is controling it's members. When in actuallity they have chose the form of control they want to be under!!! That is more than I can say for even myself and many others who are being "controled" by a force they have no power over.
I will finish this later. I hope that answers, at least in part, your question.
Also please keep in mind this is all coming from a 23 year old kid, so take it with a grain (or bucket) of salt. I do not think I have all the answers, I just know what resolved these questions for me. |
curious1 (curious1)
Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
|
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"-Janice Joplin
True freedom is being able to choose to give up our various freedoms by taking on the responsibilities encountered throughout life.
mind control is all around us, though, perhaps not so like Hollywood spy stories and such would have us believe. That's why employers have their ways of us doing our jobs; why we have so many counselors and shrinks, and a plethora full of drugs to make us be like this or that. Each religion, philosophy and way of life have their won way of viewing life. Some effect change from the mind to the physical and others, as with the martial arts, effect mental disciple through physical means.
There comes a time when all children (seems more likely the boys, though) eventually have a face off with their parents about whether they are going to remain or venture out on their own. I think the big issue, when this time comes, is to what extent the parents provided the child with and appropriate set of tools and training to get them off to a decent and respectable start in life out in the world.
Many, particularly, baby boomers since WWII, were/have been caught up in an unusually unique period in history.
Once we reach a point in time where we understand what happened we can no longer blame others for it for it is now our problem and we either deal with it or we don't and if we don't then all the feelings of resentment, unforgiveness, etc become our own sins and we must let them go, forgive ourselves as well as others and move on with life. And it, oftentimes, is very difficult for all regardless their walk in life.
"For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God." |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
New member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.27.7.241
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
|
I have to thoroughly agree with what Dowen said in his last posting. As the song says, you have to serve somebody. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
|
"Maybe you can define what you mean by "mind control"? Do you believe psychological coercion, unethical influence, or mind conditioning are possible? What about spiritual deception?" (Just_curious)
The reason I desire to respond to this particular query is I feel the idea of "mind control" is one of the foundations of the modern "anti cult" movement. To me it is the easiest way to write of groups and organizations that have defined the ways that their membership dresses, eats, believes and etc. I can only speak from my own experiences on this subject, but since I spent the most formative years of my life involved in a supposed "mind controlling, mind conditioning and brainwashing" Church, I feel that gives me a different perspective than some on this subject. Not the only perspective, just a different one.
To me mind control is the use of fear and intimidation, by self appointed Apostles who deceive the elect into believing they alone have the truth, that they alone have/know the true will of God. (Truth_hunter)
We will assume that Truth_hunter's version of Mind control is correct. Basically all he is saying is fear and intimidation equals control, and he threw in the "self appointed Apostles" part as a trump card. To the casual reader this sounds correct, but to me it is very telling about the individual who believes this.
First, the writer acknowledges that the members of HH are the "Elect" (Saints). I am thankful he recognizes that, but then he goes on to say that they have been decieved (controlled) by the leaders (Apostles) that they are pastored by. That would be fine, but if they truly are Saints, then the God who made them Saints, and is dwelling within them, is lying to them by telling them Homestead is the place for them to serve God. I don't think Truth_hunter wants to label every member of Homestead as liars, but every one of them have decided that they heard the Voice of God or the pull of the Holy Spirit, telling them to join Homestead! So, according to Truth_hunter, the Voice of God lied to these new members. Which is impossible because God never lies.
Personally I believe the above formula kills all hope some may have for a viable way to control peoples minds, through Christianity in particular. To me, the very basis of Christianity is that God gave all of us a free will, by birth. He ingrained in the human nature an ability for men to choose the path they desire to tread. He also promised us that He would send the Holy Spirit to daily guide us, if we follow Him. Because of that concept, if anyone tells me they felt the Holy Spirit guiding them to do or say something, unless I want to call him and the Holy Spirit both liars, I have to, out of respect, defer to that person and what he feels led to do or say.
I realize I have rambled along here with all of this, I just know that in the end we will all have to give accounts of what we did with our lives. I don't think God is going to excuse any of our behaviour because we tell him we did it while our minds were under the control of other men. Simply put, I believe He will hold us accountable for our own, individual, lives and the decisions WE made during our short time here. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:29 pm: |
|
Truth_hunter, I am not trying to pick on you in particular, your quote was just the easiest and fastest one I could find. And it seems typical of many other peoples view's. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 56
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
|
Dowen, The last statement in your post is the truth, we will be held accountable for our actions. This is precisely where HH is in error.
H.W. told me at least four times that it didn't matter if the leadership was wrong, as long as you submitted to them as Christ, God would not hold you accountable for rejecting your own conscience. He even went as far as to say that the Branch Davidians may have made it to heaven because they were following David Koresh as Jesus in the flesh.
Dowen, you said that it is impossible for Christians to be lead astray, dude go read your Bible, it happened all the time. Read my last post, we have been warned that it can and will happen. I in no way said that the Holy Spirit lied. (You're wearing your HH goggles once again).
You said,
"He also promised us that He would send the Holy Spirit to daily guide us, if we follow Him. Because of that concept, if anyone tells me they felt the Holy Spirit guiding them to do or say something, unless I want to call him and the Holy Spirit both liars, I have to, out of respect, defer to that person and what he feels led to do or say."
It is true you need to respect what others say God is telling them, but when their beliefs are contrary to scripture, like submitting to a man rather than your own conscience, (which is God leading, guiding, teaching you). We know that God is not speaking to them. Just as you said, God cannot lie. So when we see others following teachings contrary to his word we know that it is not of the God of the Bible. |
just_curious (just_curious)
Advanced Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 568
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.227.84.69
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
|
That would be fine, but if they truly are Saints, then the God who made them Saints, and is dwelling within them, is lying to them by telling them Homestead is the place for them to serve God. I don't think Truth_hunter wants to label every member of Homestead as liars, but every one of them have decided that they heard the Voice of God or the pull of the Holy Spirit, telling them to join Homestead! So, according to Truth_hunter, the Voice of God lied to these new members. Which is impossible because God never lies.
Whew! Dowen, I must say that is a convoluted bit of logic.
Now, suppose the leaders of a group tell members that if their convictions run contrary to the "rules" of the group then those convictions must be from Satan, not the Holy Spirit? And suppose those convictions are in line with Scripture but the "rules" are not? Someone is mistaken or lying -- both of them cannot be right. So either the leaders are right and God has given them authority over and above Scripture OR the member is being sensitive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and the leaders are attempting mind control! How do we determine which it is? |
the_general (the_general)
Junior Member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.5.167
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
|
dowen ,Just like you said, all will give an account for what they do including what they do under the influence of HH's teachings,which is why we need to get the truth to them so that they will realize the error of what they are believing.Since God never lies and the Holy Spirit never leads astray,The conclusion I would come to is that the people following HH are mistaken in believing that God and the Holy Spirit are leading them to be a part of HH. |
curious1 (curious1)
Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 63
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
|
quote: all will give an account for what they do including what they do under the influence of HH's teachings,which is why we need to get the truth to them so that they will realize the error of what they are believing
--->is it really all that important? (just musing here) for the more they learn the more responsible for their actions they become. as is, those in authority have the greater condemnation for the abuses caused those of lesser authority. but as the lesser learn more and their understanding of the gospel increases they step out of the group that knew not and now knows more fully the master's will and increases their chances of "prepares not"...
Luke 12:47-48,
"And that servant*, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he* that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."-Luke 12:47-48
it would appear the further we advance beyond the gospel's most simplistic, "for whosoever believeth" salvific formula all the more hangs in the balance, ie the greater are both the rewards AND retribution.
*only believers are referred to as servants. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
|
Dowen, you said that it is impossible for Christians to be lead astray, dude go read your Bible, it happened all the time. Read my last post, we have been warned that it can and will happen. I in no way said that the Holy Spirit lied.(Truth_hunter)
I did not say it is impossible for Christians to be led astray, we both know that is ridiculous, many times Believers have been led astray. Can you at least agree with me that when they were led astray they were not listening to the Holy Spirit?
That principle is what guides me daily. I know that without the Holy Spirit daily guiding me and helping me, I would be led astray by all the cares and worries (controls) of this degenerate world we live in. I realize that it is very easy to wander off of the Straight and Narrow Way, I know because I have wandered off myself, on more than one occasion. What led me back was Jesus in his Mercy, using His Holy Spirit to guide me back to him.
Since I am willing to recognize that no one other than Jesus could have saved me from my sin and wandering way's, I have to trust Him that if HH is really being led astray by mortal men, He will guide all those deceived members back to Him.
Just_curious, you are missing the forest because of all the trees and you can't see the town for all the houses. If you will re-read my earlier post it will answer your question.
Since God never lies and the Holy Spirit never leads astray,The conclusion I would come to is that the people following HH are mistaken in believing that God and the Holy Spirit are leading them to be a part of HH.(The_General)
General, maybe you are right, I don't know. I do ask you this, if a Saint were to tell you that he/she felt the Holy Spirit leading him to do "x", would you feel that you know better and tell that Saint that he is listening to the wrong Spirit? Maybe I have misunderstood all of your posts, but by you and others declaring that HH is teaching and preaching a "false Gospel" you have put yourselves into the position of God! Find me one man who feels he has the "True revelation of Christianity", and I will find an army of Christians who will disagree with your man. Wars have been fought over religious beliefs, thousands have died fighting for what they believe, all in the name of Jesus. What, so far, has the outcome been? Just as much, if not more, disagreement as ever.
Maybe HH is believing the wrong Gospel, the wrong Holy Spirit and the wrong God. My personal experience tells me they are serving the Christ who was nailed to a cross and gave up His life, in order to save each and every one of us from ourselves. I just don't feel any of us sinners have the right to self-appoint ourselves to tell the world just where and how HH got it all wrong. I choose to leave that judgment to a Higher Being.
In closing, last night I was laying in bed thinking about this whole message board. The Holy Spirit reminded me of the benediction one of the leaders of HH would give after every Sunday service. I can't remember exactly how it went, but it was something like this. "May the LORD bless you and keep you, may He make His face to shine upon you and give you Peace." I believe, that, in a nut shell, captures the true heart and vision of the leaders of HH. Because of that I cannot stand on any soap-box and proclaim to the world that they are all deceived, or a bunch of "false prophets". I happen to believe, with all my heart, that they were being honest when they said those words. I know they desired God to grant their flock Peace. I humbly implore all of you here trying to cause unrest and un-peacefullness at HH to remember those words that were spoken over you. Please don't return blessings with cursings. |
rbeechner (rbeechner)
New member
Username: rbeechner
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 65.150.54.222
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
|
Dowen,
You ask a good question: "if a Saint were to tell you that he/she felt the Holy Spirit leading him to do "x", would you feel that you know better and tell that Saint that he is listening to the wrong Spirit?" This is exactly what happened to me when I told Homestead Heritage leaders that I believed that the group was abusing its authority in its ministry to the children and young adults. I was especially concerned for my own children who I believed were being taught a false gospel: a salvation that depended completely, unreservedly and unremittingly upon obedience to patterns set by BA for the group--patterns for everything from clothing (socks, boot heel length, sleeve length, dress prints, types of fabrics, colors, collars, no t-shirts, hair length and style), diet (refraining from chocolate, coffee, "worldly" soft drinks, pork, shellfish, white flour, sugar, etc.) facial expressions, leisure (no bowling, water skiing, roller skating rinks, ice skating rinks, no organized sports, no television, movies or computer games), work, swimming, choice of toys and music, curriculums, vocations, styles of homes and vehicles, or even family trips without "checking it with the brothers." etc. etc. etc. It all became a crushing weight of legalism which neither I nor my wife or children could live up to. My family was becoming demoralized by the hopelessness of ever becoming "good enough" to be accepted by God. Our focus became more and more on the "patterns" of HH instead of on the work and worth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The message of His own shedding of His blood on the Cross for our salvation became lost in the teaching that we must take up "our own cross" and follow Him by ever more complete submission to the dictates of the leaders of HH. I was told that my concerns for my childeren's faith were "peripheral." When I insisted that this was not so, the leaders told me I was of a different spirit; indeed, they told me I was the spirit of the antichrist, as I had rejected "Christ come in human flesh speaking through the leaders," and that I had "divorced myself from the body of Christ." Boom, I was gone.
Paul did not shrink from warning the Galatians against a false gospel, and he didn't put himself in the place of God when he did it:
"Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."
The curse comes from distorting the gospel of Jesus Christ, not from pointing out the distortion. |
rbeechner (rbeechner)
New member
Username: rbeechner
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 65.150.54.222
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
|
Note to Homestead Heritage leaders--
Here's a way you can silence a lot of the criticism you are experiencing on this message board:
Repent.
Just come clean. Admit the abuse and your own guilt in it. You know you've done it, your critics know you've done it, most of your advocates on this board know you've done it. Stop trying to cover it up. Confess your sin, repent it with Godly sorrow, and begin seeking ways of making amends. Start with the children and young adults who your overbearing authoritarianism has alienated from God.
This is not such a hard thing. Christians have been confessing and repenting sin for over 2,000 years now. It is a way of life with the called of God. |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 52
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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Rbeechner,
If everything you say is true then I am thankful you pulled you and your family out of such a place.
When I wrote the above piece I remember thinking that someone would eventually make the exact point that you did, so I am glad you have.
Higher up in this thread a few other members and I had a discussion about control, and that discussion dove tail's nicely into your comments. The point I was trying to make above was the members of HH chose the controls you listed to govern their everyday existance. I hope you agree that they have that right??!! We can debate until the end of time whether those controls are Godly or not, but THEY CHOSE THEM!! You, I assume, have left all of HH's "controls" behind. That is fine and I will not judge you for doing that, you have the obligation to moniter the "controls" that are being exercised over you family. I just know that for ME, when I let loose the bonds of HH's control all I did was change into another set of bonds.
That point brings me to this, one of the greatest freedoms we as Christians can exercise is the freedom to CHOOSE what set of "controls" we desire to be under. I feel that for me to tell HH, and whomever else is reading this, that HH is legalistic, controlling, mind conditioning, etc. etc. etc. is not my obligation and futhermore it does not bring Glory to the Saviour I believe we both serve. I believe very strongly that this forum is not of God and that He is displeased by some of you saying the things that have been said here. That is my feeling, and my personal conviction.
I believe that in order to be respected, one must first show respect. Many people here have a great desire for HH to respect their individual decisions to leave HH and that is an attainable goal. However it will not be attained by treating them (HH) with disrespect. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 59
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
|
Dowen,
Could you explain, 1. Why you feel the need for HH to accept or respect your decision to leave HH? 2. What makes you think respect is attainable from HH, when you have rejected what they view as the Word and will of God? |
curious1 (curious1)
Intermediate Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 161
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:03 pm: |
|
It would appear, Dowen, there is some merit in Truth HUnter's words as respect is a two way street. You desire respect from HH so the obvious question surfaces, what kind of respect did you extend HH? |
the_general (the_general)
Junior Member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.7.9
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 12:25 am: |
|
Dowen is showing HH all kinds of respect now because he is trying to obtain favor with them, talking with them and even attending some of thier functions.
(Message edited by the_general on May 28, 2005)
(Message edited by the_general on May 28, 2005) |
curious1 (curious1)
Intermediate Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 167
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 1:06 am: |
|
oh.h..h! |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 60
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 12:05 pm: |
|
Dowen is showing HH all kinds of respect now because he is trying to obtain favor with them, talking with them and even attending some of thier functions.(The_General)
Wow buddy, I don't know where you get your info from, but I did attend one, solitary, single, isolated "function" at HH. Oh my gosh, how horrible! How horrible that I desire to show respect and honor for my folks and what they believe! I have never tried to hide the fact that I have a working and functioning relationship with the folks out at Homestead, in fact I have boasted of it and I am VERY thankful for it! I care little for "obtaining favor" but I care greatly for the Truth. Again, how HORRIBLE OF ME!
BTW, the meeting I attended was a friday night meeting and the purpose of the meeting was for my father to tell his testimony. How disgusting that I wanted to hear about my dad's experiences with God! What about that "Commandment with a promise"??!! Have ya'll thrown that one out already? It sickens me that some of you are represenatives of Christianity and yet you can't see that simple truth!
Dowen,
Could you explain, 1. Why you feel the need for HH to accept or respect your decision to leave HH? 2. What makes you think respect is attainable from HH, when you have rejected what they view as the Word and will of God?(Truth_hunter)
1. I do desire HH to respect me as a man and as a brother in Christ. As far as if they do or not, that is up to ME! You missed my point earlier, IF YOU WANT ANYONE TO RESPECT YOU, YOU MUST FIRST SHOW THEM RESPECT! I feel a great need for me as a son to respect my father, something I have not done very well in the past. So now, whenever I see a chance to show respect for my father, I am remiss if I don't. And as I showed the other day, respect for my father also means respect for his religion (and vice-versa), at least in my view.
2. The only way I know respect is attainable from the folks at HH is because I have received respect from them on a daily basis! Yes, I have in some ways "rejected" parts of what they believe and I know they have rejected some of what I believe. The difference between you and I is, in part, I have tried to my utmost ability over the past several years to show them respect! I feel they have accepted me and my shortcomings, and in return I feel obligated to do the same for them. That does not mean we are in perfect agreement at all times but we share a mutual respect one for another. What more could I ask for, considering the situation I am in? (Being as I left, etc. etc.)
You have said in your posts Truth-hunter, that some of your "best friends" are at HH. All I can say is, doesn't a friend deserve RESPECT!!?? |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 17
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 2:02 pm: |
|
I wish we could start threads and stay with the general idea 
Anyway,I really thought that the doctrine thread would have been the most important.
Although I have refrained many times from answering some of these wacky posts I cannot help myself this time.
Dowen,
You said,"I believe very strongly that this forum is not of God..."
Why are you participating in it?
Also, you have called people liars and have claimed that they are making accusations.Do you know for sure what I have said is untrue?
Am I making an accusation or am I simply telling what happened and what I knowthat they believe.It is not second hand info.
I had to leave because I could not in good conscience agree with some of the teachings.
If, as you said we are merely turning matters of personal opinion into doctrinal issues It would not be worth hearing.
But,it is much more than this.We are supposed to "contend earnestly for the faith that was once delivered to the saints"
We had all better know what that faith is.
For Emmaus,Koinonia,Truth Forum,Heritage Min.,HH or whatever you want to call them,it comes down to being right. If we are right they are wrong or vice verse. Their very salvation depends on it.Brother Blair even said in a meeting referring to a popular christian author that if he(the author) was going to heaven then he(Blair) was going to Hell! In his writings he called this author a ravenous wolf in sheep's clothing and him and others like him were Apollyon come in the flesh and godless men and on and on...
It is not about our "rightness" it is all about what Jesus did on the Cross.
It is about the Gospel.
..Peter stood up and said to them,"Brethren,you know that in the early days God made a choice among you,that by my mouth the gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit,just as He did to us;
and He made no distinction between us and them,cleansing their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus,in the same way as they also are."
Daniel, you did not come within the "covenant contours of the Body of Christ" you did not"pronounce a curse upon yourself if you fail to fulfill the terms of you commitment"nor did you say"May Yahweh deal with me,be it ever so severely,if anything but death seperates you from me"
You are being treated differently than others period. If you had done and said these things then you would be treated the same way.Even by your father.
For as they say"no earthly relationship should draw us away from our commitment to His covenant Body."
They are worshipping the body and have taken their eyes off the Head.
It is too important not to tell people about it. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 2:45 pm: |
|
Amen Recovering Pharisee, and I also just have to say I love your pen name.
Dowen, I think your definition of respect differs from mine. If my friends are dragging the name of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ through the mud, NO I do not respect the things they do in the Name of my Lord. I only respect their right to do so.
If you mean disrespect in terms of slander, (false accusation) I have told nothing but the truth and you and they both know I have a lot more horrible crimes that I can't bring myself to talk about in this form because it would hurt my best friend and victim of these outlandish sins done in the name of Jesus.
I have not called any of them names, Even though after we left HH they call my wife a whore because she wore black healed boots to an outdoor event. Do you call that respect? When they called her that, we were on "Great" terms with Heritage Ministries. I had done nothing, said nothing, In fact I thought a lot like you. |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
|
You said,"I believe very strongly that this forum is not of God..."
Why are you participating in it?(Recovering_pharisee)
A very good point and something I have struggled with. All I can say is what you have said,We are supposed to "contend earnestly for the faith that was once delivered to the saints"(Recovering_pharisee)
Maybe you are right inasmuch as I am treated differently than someone who had taken the "Baptismal Covenant". Are you telling me they have one set of beliefs for unbaptized ex-members and another for baptized ones? I think if I remember correctly from a conversation we had, you feel that way. And maybe you are right, but I have expressly asked the leadership if someone leaves HH after being baptized, if they believe that person is doomed to Hell. They have vehemently denied any such belief. They do feel if said person leaves HH and his life shows no form of the fruit of the Spirit, then said person is in grave spiritual danger. I find no reason in the Bible to disagree with that.
I do not want to call anyone a liar, and if you feel I have then I humbly apolagize. No, I was not involved in every situation nor present during every confrontation. I do however know that the leaders some of you are essentially calling demons are nothing of the sort. Sure they have problems and issues, and possibly they have handled problems in the wrong fashion. Does that give us free reign to call them "false prophets, teachers, etc. etc.? I believe in something called forgiveness, and not keeping records of wrongs, I hope you do too.
Truth_Hunter, I have endured some of the same things you are speaking of, in regard to my wife's dress especially. I know how it burns and I know how livid and angry it can make you to hear things like that said about someone you love. Now you know how I feel when I read some of the things being said here about Homestead. |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 63
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
|
I agree with Recovering_pharisee, I too wish we could stay on track when it comes to the subject line parelleling the thread title.
Maybe we should start a thread titled "How everyone disagrees with Dowen" Then we could talk and trade jabs without end until somone finally kicks the bucket, or bows out. Sound like fun? LOL
I think I am the youngest of us three, so we may be in for a long haul...
(Message edited by dowen on May 28, 2005) |
the_general (the_general)
Junior Member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.12.248
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
|
I think the false prophet and false teacher thing has nothing to do with how they may have handled a situation wrong or made a mistake in how they treated somebody, but in the fact that they teach a different gospel than the one we read in the Bible |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 18
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.188.117.136
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
|
OK,
I think we should try to be specific about who is saying what.Saying things like "most of you"
or "some of you" kind of skirts around the points that are being made.
For the record I do not have anything personal against you Dowen nor do I want to jab you.
I just want you to open your eyes and see what is really going on.It is not about you or me.
HH has staked their claim on the Truth as they see it.All I want is for them to acknowledge their beliefs.
No, they do not have two sets of beliefs,however,they do have many ways of relating to people based on "where they are at" |
rbeechner (rbeechner)
New member
Username: rbeechner
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 65.150.10.20
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
|
Dowen,
You said, "I have expressly asked the leadership if someone leaves HH after being baptized, if they believe that person is doomed to Hell. They have vehemently denied any such belief."
What is the truth, Dowen, what they told you or what they told me? And not only me, but also numbers of other baptized members who felt they had to leave the group because of doctrinal concerns and concerns for their children's welfare? I was told that leaving the group--regardless of the reason-- was tantamount to "divorcing myself from the body of Christ." I was told that leaving the group made me--by definition-- a "covenant breaker," "the spirit of the antichrist," and that I was no longer considered by the group to be a Christian. Period. No discussion.
You say that you were told:
"They do feel if said person leaves HH and his life shows no form of the fruit of the Spirit, then said person is in grave spiritual danger."
I say after 15 years of study and hard experience that they believe that ANYONE who leaves the group for ANY reason HAS shown himself--by the very act of leaving-- to be devoid of the fruit of the Spirit, a rebel and a covenant breaker, regardless of what he may say or do after leaving and regardless of what anyone else may see in his life. This is their teaching.
(Message edited by rbeechner on May 28, 2005)
(Message edited by rbeechner on May 29, 2005) |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.62
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 3:25 pm: |
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See http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=171570#POST171570 |
h75
Junior Member
Username: h75
Post Number: 27
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 71.41.26.146
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 12:17 pm: |
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bump |
missionary_lady
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 197
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.3.11.119
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 8:29 pm: |
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bump |
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