| Author | Message | ||
     old_watchman (old_watchman) New member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 |
What Is a Cult? Webster’s New World College Dictionary “Cult - 1b) a quasi-religious group, often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices, or beliefs.” Watchman Fellowship’s Definition By the term Cult, Watchman Fellowship is in no way implying that these people (their followers or leaders) are evil or immoral. It simply means that such groups promote doctrines or practices, which may be considered outside the realm of historic Christianity. Analysis 1. They Add to the Word of God “Cults have shifted their theological point of authority away from God’s full and final written word, the Bible, to their own unique, self-promoting opinions about the Bible.” They may have their own version of the scriptures. They may add new scripture. They may have magazines and/or books that act as commentaries on the Bible and are studied in place of the Bible. They may have a revelator or seer who can give new scripture. Dose Homestead Heritage fit this mark of a Cult? 2. They Subtract From the Deity of Christ “Throughout history, every cult has distorted this key doctrine by regarding Jesus as either something less than fully God or less than fully man.” They may deny His pre-existence as God. They may make Him a lesser deity or subordinate to the Father. They may say He was only a man with the mind of God. They may say He is only one mode, or form, or office of God. There are many other false views of God the Son }that have been declared heresies by the Body of Christ through the centuries. Does Homestead Heritage Subtract from the deity of Jesus Christ? 3. They Multiply the Requirements for Salvation. “There are two formulas for salvation. One is biblical and the other is that of the cults. Which is the formula that will bring eternal life and which will bring eternal destruction? Faith = Salvation + Works Faith + Works = Salvation The first formula is biblical while the second formula is the one used by cults. Which formula does Homestead Heritage use? 4. They Divide the Follower’s loyalty. “Simply stated, each group, regardless of what other doctrines are taught, will all have this one common idea. Every cult suffers from The Only True Church Syndrome.” They divide the Body of Christ. They divide families. Does Homestead Heritage divide the Body of Christ by claiming exclusivity? Do they separate their members from non-members? | ||
| meye_view (meye_view) New member Username: meye_view Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 12.65.115.29 |
This is kind of long but I thought it would be of interest considering the first question of this thread. AFF, a cultic studies research and educational nonprofit, published this definition accepted by many cult researchers: Cult: A group or movement exhibiting 1. great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing, and 2. employing unethical manipulative or coercive techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it), 3. designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, 4. to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community. Cultic Studies Journal, 3,1 (1986): 119-120. If a group that you belong to has many of the following criteria to a significant degree, you have cause for concern: · The group is led by a one or a few individuals, charismatic, determined, domineering. · The leader(s) are self-appointed and claim to have a special mission in life. Frequently, that mission is messianic or apocalyptic. Leaders answer to no higher authority, such as an oversight board. They are sole interpreters of doctrine and policy -- which may change frequently and whimsically. · The group centers its veneration on the leader(s) directly, rather than on God, a higher political power, science, or whatever. · The group structure is hierarchical and authoritarian. Rarely will you find an open election in a cult. · The group tends to be totalitarian, with elaborate rules and rituals that occupy large parts of every day. To break a rule or ignore a ritual carries the danger of expulsion from the group. · The group usually has two or more sets of ethics: one for the leadership, another for the membership; one for outsiders, another for insiders; a relaxed set for recruiting purposes, a much more demanding set for the committed member. · The group usually presents itself as innovative and exclusive, even elitist. · The group has two main purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising. It's unlikely to support or even encourage legitimate charity work, except as a front for recruitment. After Dr. Margaret Thaler Singer and others. Wouldn't Jesus have been called a "cult leader" today? We laugh out loud whenever a cult spokesperson trots out this old chestnut. Have you ever heard any reports of Jesus physically, sexually, or emotionally abusing any of his disciples? Did Jesus amass a huge secret fortune? Was he ever accused of stockpiling guns? Selling drugs? Abusing children? And while we're on the topic, we're not aware of such allegations against Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, Lao Tse, or other great spiritual leaders. Cult apologists define concepts they find uncomfortable as broad and fuzzy as possible so that soon any organization or any leader could be termed cultic. Don't fall for it. Aren't the Marines a cult? Nope. Nor are the Jesuits for that matter. While cults, military organizations, and legitimate spiritual groups share some superficials, they are fundamentally different. They share an indoctrination process, strict codes of behavior and ethics, uniform dress, restricted diets and exercise regimens. Where they differ most is deception. Anyone signing up for bootcamp has no doubt in his or her mind that he will be going through a severe mental, emotional, and physical trial meant to improve their physique and sharpen their mind. There are no secrets. Whether a curious person attends an introductory seminar for Transcendental Meditation, the Church of Scientology, the Moonies, or smaller cults, the speaker will conveniently forget to mention that new members will undergo what the California Supreme Court has called "brainwashing, thought reform, or mind control," may end up "donating" hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of their lives to the cult. It should be pointed out also that legitimate organizations like the Marines and Jesuits care for their members with health care, food, lodging, clothing -- and that when members leave they will have been trained in a trade, received an advanced degree, or received other value. Are cults a modern phenomenon? Definitely not. They appear throughout recorded history. In the 19th Century, messianic groups like the Millerites flourished in the US. The Boxer Rebellion in China was triggered by a cult leader who believed he was Jesus Christ. There are indications of similar groups in the Middle Ages, Biblical times, before the Christian Era, and in non-Western cultures. Do all cults end in suicide? No. In fact, it's highly unusual. Conway and Siegelman, in Snapping talk about the unique events and pressures that bring about the "death spiral" of a Jonestown, Waco, or Heaven's Gate. There is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy that takes place when the cult leader begins to fear the loss of his or her power, whether through intrusion of or exposure to outside authorities, internal defections, a rival group, or the leader's real or imagined impending death. The members may begin to stockpile weapons or make strange public pronouncements, which in turn invite public scrutiny -- eventually igniting the final holocaust. Most cults end gradually through defections, ceasing operations when the leader is exposed, dissolution on the leader's death, splitting into many rival groups, or gradually evolving into a more open society, such as a mainstream religion or political party. Are all New Age religions cults? No way. Many New Age, Pagan, Eastern, and other new religious movements are known for their openness to other traditions, democratic structure, and fiercely noncommercial values. These are in direct opposition to cultic values. Just like any other human tradition, however, there are cults based around New Age, Eastern, UFO, or other alternative philosophies -- just as there are Christian cults. The cultic structure can be created around any belief system or human activity whatsoever. There are vitamin cults and multilevel marketing cults. Some critics believe that organizations within Amway, for instance, are the largest cultic groups in America. There are many different flavors of cults, including Bible-based, Large Group Awareness Training, Eastern Meditation, Commercial/Multilevel Marketing, Political/Terrorist, Psychotherapy, Occult/Satanic, New Age, Miscellaneous (built around charismatic personalities in the arts, for instance). Some cults are hybrids. The Moonies, for instance, mix Christian and Eastern influences. How big is the average cult? There is no true average. Cultic relationships can exist in groups as small as two or as large as hundreds of thousands, if not millions. An excellent book, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds by Tobias and Lalich, discusses recovery from "one-on-one" cults (abusive relationships) side-by-side with issues from much larger cults. Which are more dangerous, large or small? Which is more dangerous, an asteroid or a bullet? To the individual who meets up with either, it doesn't matter. Small cults tend to be more physically and emotionally abusive, largely because their size ensures that they don't appear on the media's radar screen. Large cults can psychologically damage hundreds of thousands of people. Wealthy organizations like Transcendental Meditation, Scientology, and Rev. Moon's Unification Church can also influence legislation and elections. How many cults are there? Even experts only offer estimates: in the thousands. How many people have been involved with cults? Noted psychologist Dr. Margaret Thaler Singer, author of Cults in Our Midst, estimates that 10 to 20 million Americans have been involved to some degree with cultic organizations in the last 20 years. What other groups are cults? Here are links to hundreds of groups that critics or former members have alleged are cultic. What about freedom of religion? What about it? trancenet.organd most former cult members are fiercely in favor of all psychological freedoms, including freedom of belief and religion. Cult critics by and large are not concerned about issues of doctrine. If you believe that Christ was an alien, that's fine by us. Our concern is with behavior, criminal behavior. The groups that we track are charged by critics with psychological and physical abuse, undue influence, fraud, and countless other offenses that are actionable in a court of law. Is everyone who believes in UFOs a cultist? Absolutely not. Beliefs that appear bizarre or irrational to the society at large can sometimes fuel tremendous breakthroughs. After all, they tortured Galileo and laughed at Marconi for unusual beliefs. | ||
| dowen (dowen) Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.54.214.51 |
Old_watchman, I give you one thing, you have alot of nerve. I have stated this before but obviously you missed or ignored it. Why are you throwing these ridiculous claims and vailed accusations out there about HH? You mask and desguise your true motives with just enough "piousness" and supposed hunger for the truth that people fall into your trap and become mired in the muck you have created for them. How sad. The Bible says those who cause His little ones to stumble deserve a millstone hung about their neck's and then be thrown into the ocean, if I remember correctly. I am not passing judgment I am just warning you. In answer to your question, of course HH is not a cult. That is only wishful thinking on your part. I guess you have sucked all the blood you could out of the other churches you have preyed upon and so you are looking for warm meat at HH. Is that a correct assumption??? All I know about you is what I have read on your web site, and what I have seen you do here. So far I am disgusted and sickened. Once again you and your ilk are a stain and a blotch upon Christianity. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 487 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
dowen, Why don't you let the accusers lay out their evidence for the assertion, you and real_truth and other defenders can offer your rebuttal then everyone can make up their own minds? You state that HH is not a cult, fine. But does it fit any of the criteria listed? Please explain why or why not. | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.227.140.26 |
Webster’s New World College Dictionary answer. HH is neither quasi-religious, nor even religious at all in my opinion. They are Christians, attempting to the best of their ability to live in a Christ-like manner, (which is what Christian means by definition). As far as being unorthodox, no more unorthodox than the early church was in its time. Having extremist views, practices or beliefs, well I can only answer this by posing another question, "Is it an extreme view or belief, to believe that God himself would come to earth take on human flesh dwell and walk among fallen men, show us how to live through example, by living a perfect life without sin, and then die for our sins that we might become more like him?" "With a charismatic leader (note leader singular, not leaders) who indoctrinates members…" NO ABSOUTELY NOT!!! There is no single leader, they have a plurality of elders, brothers in Christ. Charismatic, no, anointed, yes. These elders are not, nor do they claim to be perfect, they are fallible men just like you and I, men who consider themselves to be servants of God and his people. Eph. 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. As for Watchmen Fellowship's definition, I believe it is irrelevant, but nontheless I will attempt to answer it when I return I have to work right now. | ||
| sdleah (sdleah) New member Username: sdleah Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.115.244.43 |
Based on my family's experience and every definition that I have read of what a cult is, yes, HH is one. | ||
| dowen (dowen) Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.54.214.51 |
Ah, Just_curious, now you to are joining the crowd trying to control when, where and how I, and others, post. How curious of you. Who is trying to use "control tactics" now? I assure you that I will post whenever I feel led to, with no regard to any of your, or anyone else's, yelps of protest. Not trying to be ugly here, but you need to look in the mirror on this subject. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 492 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
dowen, Aren't you a bit paranoid? I asked a couple of questions and now I'm using "control tactics"? What I'm curious about is why you all are so sensitive?! | ||
| dowen (dowen) Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.54.214.51 |
Just_curious, You asked me to let those who are, in my mind, a reproach to Christianity "lay out their evidence" first. Then I and the other "defenders" can lay out our rebuttals. I thought I lived in a free country, guess not. To me that language just confirms what my gut has told me all along, some of you people really are putting Homestead on trial. A trial without order, without dueprocess without a jury and without a Judge or moderator. Everyone is free to come here slandering, lieing, and hurling accusations at HH. What has happened to innocent until proven guilty? Do some of you think that what you have done here is prove HH guilty? HH has not even been given a chance to defend themselves against some of you because you are hiding behind usernames and masks??!! I assure HH will not answer your accusations here in this arena, so as long as Homestead is silent to your claims, you have no right to continue to make them. You will come to be known as what you truly are, COWARDS!!!. You are stabbing the members of Homestead in their backs, while they are sleeping, just so you won't have to face them like true men. Just_curious, am I paranoid? maybe, I think concerned and outraged is a better way to put it. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
What has happened to innocent until proven guilty? The correct terminology is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The reality of innocence or guilt is not determined by proof but by truth. so as long as Homestead is silent to your claims, you have no right to continue to make them. That's a interesting spin on logic, but I haven't made any "claims" -- I've just asked a few questions and made a few observations based on the content of this board. You asked me That's exactly right -- I asked you, quite politely, I might add. And that gets interpreted as using "control tactics"? Hmmmmm.......sounds like one of the characteristics of spiritually abusive religous systems: the person who asks questions becomes the problem rather than the issue raised. | ||
| waawaa (waawaa) Member Username: waawaa Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.112.0.204 |
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 495 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
CITIZENSHIP IN A REPUBLIC The Man in the Arena By Theodore Roosevelt University of Paris, Sorbonne April 23, 1910 (It's always a good idea to credit your sources) | ||
| hater101 (hater101) New member Username: hater101 Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.112.0.204 |
hey, did you think he wrote that dude, it's a quote so get over it | ||
| waawaa (waawaa) Member Username: waawaa Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.112.0.204 |
The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. 2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. 3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. 4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. 5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah. 7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. 8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. 9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. 10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. 11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. 13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? 14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: 15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. 16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? 17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee. 18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers. 19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. 20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother’s son. 21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. 22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. 23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God. | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.227.140.26 |
Thanks waawaa, I couldn’t agree with you more, the quote by Roosevelt was very telling. Those who are outside the arena, looking in (spectators) always can criticize and mock, but their opinion is worthless because they have not "been marred by dust and sweat and blood" they have not been in the arena. They are just peeping toms looking in and attempting to deface the name of Christ. They do not hate HH because they are those (like the rest of us) "who errs and comes short again and again" they hate them for the good they have done, they hate HH because they have stood out like "a city set upon a hill" stood out in sharp contrast to the darkness of this increasingly dark and evil world. As to the scripture you quoted several verses stood out to me as I read, for these slanderers seem to think that they are getting away with this, they seem to think that God because He has kept silent so far is just like them. Ps.50 Verse 21-22 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. 22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. I also thought of two other scriptures to show that God will not allow this to happen for too long before he will do as He has promised. Pe.3.9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men counts slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should parish, but that all should come to repentance. Pe. 3.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Ga.6.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. I want to go back for a moment to the scripture you quoted (Ps.50) Ps.50.19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. 20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother’s son. This very aptly describes what these slanderers are doing now. Mat.25.40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: I think the warnings against these things are very serious and very clear throughout scripture. Thanks again for your support against this lying outrage! | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.227.140.26 |
Watchman Fellowship’s Definition By the term Cult, Watchman Fellowship is in no way implying that these people (their followers or leaders) are evil or immoral. It simply means that such groups promote doctrines or practices, which may be considered outside the realm of historic Christianity. Analysis 1. They Add to the Word of God “Cults have shifted their theological point of authority away from God’s full and final written word, the Bible, to their own unique, self-promoting opinions about the Bible.” They may have their own version of the scriptures. They may add new scripture. They may have magazines and/or books that act as commentaries on the Bible and are studied in place of the Bible. They may have a revelator or seer who can give new scripture. Dose Homestead Heritage fit this mark of a Cult? No to all of the above, they do not even remotely apply. If individual church writings make one a cult then almost any pastor or leader from the time of the reformation to present would be considered a cult. HH does have church literature, (as do all the other churches I know about) but they do not elevate church writings to the level of scripture. In fact they actively encourage members to study scripture for themselves. 2. They Subtract From the Deity of Christ “Throughout history, every cult has distorted this key doctrine by regarding Jesus as either something less than fully God or less than fully man.” They may deny His pre-existence as God. They may make Him a lesser deity or subordinate to the Father. They may say He was only a man with the mind of God. They may say He is only one mode, or form, or office of God. There are many other false views of God the Son }that have been declared heresies by the Body of Christ through the centuries. Does Homestead Heritage Subtract from the deity of Jesus Christ? No, they do not in any way subtract from the deity of Jesus Christ!HH clearly states in their doctrinal literature that Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully Man, no uncertain terms, no ambiguity, very clear. 3. They Multiply the Requirements for Salvation. “There are two formulas for salvation. One is biblical and the other is that of the cults. Which is the formula that will bring eternal life and which will bring eternal destruction? Faith = Salvation + Works Faith + Works = Salvation The first formula is biblical while the second formula is the one used by cults. Which formula does Homestead Heritage use? JA.2:14,17-22.24 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? 17-22 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. This is the best way that I can describe how the “formula” (your term not mine) was taught to me while I was a member. And, my friends, that is pure scripture, unadulterated and unaltered in any way, just the way HH taught us. 4. They Divide the Follower’s loyalty. “Simply stated, each group, regardless of what other doctrines are taught, will all have this one common idea. Every cult suffers from The Only True Church Syndrome.” They divide the Body of Christ. They divide families. Does Homestead Heritage divide the Body of Christ by claiming exclusivity? Do they separate their members from non-members? I will let HH’s own literature answer for itself, this is a direct quote from one of their doctrinal pamphlets “…the word church can, of course, be understood in two ways: as describing a local congregation and as describing the Body of Christ in its entirety.Therefore, you are being at the very least ambiguous when you claim thatwe say people are not a part of the church if they don’t “conform to [ourfellowship’s] patterns.” This changes what we have actually said just enoughto radically alter the whole meaning from anything we’ve ever presented.In other words, what we said about the Body of Christ in its entirety yourstatement insinuates that we said regarding our own local church: that ifpeople are not a part of our local church, then they won’t be saved. We,however, believe of course that everyone must be (whether they stand inimputation or impartation stage) a part of the Body of Christ to be saved,but not everyone must be a part of our local congregation to be saved, which would be absurd.” | ||
| very_disturbed (very_disturbed) New member Username: very_disturbed Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.27.7.241 |
Is HH a cult? Well, the popular answer on this site seems to be yes. I am no great scholar or anything, but I would like to state why I believe they are not. I think most of us agree that the relationship between a given person and the Church is parallel to that of a marriage relationship, and similar to any close, commited friendship between two people. Lets take for instance two people who meet each other. They like each other. They feel drawn to each other. Nobody forces them, but they want to get to know each other. They find that they have much common ground. They spend time getting to know each other even better. Then maybe there comes a time when God leads them to commit to each other in marriage. There is nobody forcing them. This is something they both want so much. They love each other so much that they want to make sure that this love is protected in the context of a covenant. So they get married. Happy Day, right? Then CABAMMMMMM!!!!!!!! Mr Right decides that Miss Right is not so right after all. She can be a little demanding. And she does not know how to cook as good as he thought. She expects him to be Mr. Fix-it. She gets bratty. She has unreasonable expectations of him. He loses the sense of awe and wonder he had at first. He no longer sees her as a incredible gift from God. She no longer seems like such a blessing. He realizes he is not "free" like he used to be. Miss Right does not understand when he wants to date other women. Miss Right does not understand when he takes his paycheck and spends it on fun for himself. Miss Right wants to save her marriage. She loves Mr Right so much that she tries to talk to him, help him, etc. She sometimes gets mad, she may say the wrong thing at times, but she is desperate to get back what they had. Well, sadly, Mr. Right decides that he needs his freedom. He is tired of all the "guilt trips". This is a free country after all. So he leaves and goes to pursue his new dream. Miss Right, he realizes, was a controlling, nasty woman. He feels that she made it hard for him to leave. He realizes that the institution of marriage is just a kind of cult. Miss Right feels wronged, cheated, unloved abandoned,and so on. Mr Right is mad too, because she trapped him, and took away his freedom. She wasted his time. She tried to make him "conform". Sounds absolutely crazy. But to me, it is just like what many of these ex-"members" are doing. Your membership in the churh was a voluntary, loving, commited relationship,one that you FREELY chose to enter into. There are hard times and everyone fails. You lose sight of the purpose, of the love that caused you to chose to make this commitment. So you leave. That is your legal right. I know how it is. After all, I did it myself. I left. BUT THIS IS MY POINT, IF HH IS A CULT, THEN SO IS ANY COMMITED RELATIONSHIP, INCLUDING MARRIAGE. When one breaks off a relationship, there is great hurt and loss to both sides. So why doesn't HH have a support site for all the innocent people still there who were hurt by our betrayal and abandonment. On that site they could aire how we abused them time and again. How we lied to them. How we decieved them over and over. How we took advantage of their forgiveness. How we let down people who invested so much. How they gave us the best of what they had, time, money, love, guidance..... How we disgraced people (parents), who taught us everything we know. How we rose up in pride, forgetting that all we have we were given by the people we now resent so much. They can go on and on about how they loved us and believed us, and we let them down so bad. They can talk about how we sought to ruin all they had left by spreading slanderous lies. But that is not HH way. They trust that God knows the truth, and he will reveal it in His own time and way. This is not the first time they have been through this. They know that God can use even this terrible situation for His glory. They are the real victims, but they still ask themselves, did I do all I could? They seek God, and ask Him to show them where they may have erred. They are constantly moving forward, constantly growing and changing. But not so with us, the self proclaimed "Victims of Spiritual Abuse". We use there alleged "abuse" as an excuse why we are such losers, such unrepentant sinners. We think it is okay to dishonor God, okay to do whatever we want, and we always find someone who will justify it. We are too weak and cowardly to face the real enemy: Our own disgusting flesh, who always cries out for more "freedom" to do whatever it pleases. We feed this beast, and the more we feed it the more it drowns out that every diminishing voice that would reveal to us the truth, the way, the light. May God help us all. -Very Disturbed | ||
| seekeroftruth (seekeroftruth) Junior Member Username: seekeroftruth Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.162.151.91 |
just curious, I do understand you point, but I wanted to ask on one thing, some of those born there did not choose to grow up this way so what should happen in that case? | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 543 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
seekeroftruth, I think you meant to address the above post to very_disturbed? | ||
| very_disturbed (very_disturbed) New member Username: very_disturbed Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.27.7.241 |
I was born there, so I do understand. What should happen in that case is the same thing that should happen in every other case. One should seek God from a pure heart and find His will. If you read some of my other postings, you will see that yes, when the time came, I did NOT choose to remain there. And because it is a free association of believers, nobody stopped me. There were no guilt trips. There was nothing done to me that even remotely resembled cultish behavior. The "Brothers" whom I informed of my decision only told me that they hoped that I would seek God and make sure my decisions were in God's will, because they had my best interest in mind. I do not see that as cultish or fear tactics. I see it as a sincere expression of love. Looking back I realize that they probably saw many things that I was too ignorant and immature to see for myself. If only I was wise enough to seek cousel from them, unstead of being so overly confident in myself. It could have saved me a lot of trouble. May God help us all, very_disturbed | ||
| seekeroftruth (seekeroftruth) Junior Member Username: seekeroftruth Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.162.151.91 |
Yes excuse me and I meant very disturbed,thank you for the correction,I am not talking about guilt trips or force. i talking to you about ones that have come out of hh hating God. They were children,please I not trying to agrivate you I just want someone to answer that part of it... | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Junior Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
Those in a cult will always defend and claim it is not. (Message edited by curious1 on May 17, 2005) | ||
| very_disturbed (very_disturbed) New member Username: very_disturbed Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.27.7.241 |
FYI: I am not in a cult!!! I do not go to HH. I left HH and have pursued a life of my own. I just am not going to go along with lies from people who are so misleading. And also, I know the true identity of most of you who post here, because of what you say. And for those of you who believe them: You would be shocked if you knew who they really are. May God help us all, Very Disturbed | ||
| no_doubt (no_doubt) New member Username: no_doubt Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Dear Very Disturbed, I have to say I am very disturbed you would say you know most of these people posting and have called them liars accused them of immorality and illicit behavior. I know a few of these people and that couldn`t be farther from the truth. To accuse people of things that are not true is slander and I really don`t think you know most of these people or you would have never have said that. If you are not referring to everyone on these postings then please make that clear because as of right now you have lumped everyone together. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Junior Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
{quote: I said: "Those in a cult will always defend and claim it is not,"] [quote: very disturbed replied: "FYI: I am not in a cult!!!"] my response: ASSUMING you are, indeed, addressing me it is obvious by my wording that i was not addressing you then, was I? I was merely making a general observation. So, once again, assuming you were, indeed, speaking to me, please, try to control thyself better in the future and not fly off the handle so quick. Both your reputation as well as your friends and associates will appreciate you and what you have to say all the more. (Message edited by curious1 on May 17, 2005) | ||
| just_family (just_family) New member Username: just_family Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.170.250.33 |
YEA!!!!!! I'm so excited that there's finally some information available about this group!! We've had family trapped in bondage in this group for many years and I can't seem to find the truth about what this group is really about. It's great to get some information. I called about two years ago and I *think* I talked to real_truth who I believe is the groups lawyer/pr guy. If not they share the same traits of quoting random scripture, which pulled out of context suits him, and desire to know people's agenda. I felt a little intimidated that day and he had his speech down, so I didn't really get to ask what I wanted to ask. Well, sir, you wanted to know my agenda and here it is: 1. I want you to explain to me why the "private worship services". That's so unBiblical! 2. I want to know why you feel the need to send "spies" out to find out what's going on in member's homes. If it really was a loving environment then couldn't you just ask what's going on? AND... how does your pastor have time to follow up on these spy reports??? Doesn't he have better things to do than follow up on the spy reports. Seriously, get the log out of your own eye! 3. Why does the church so greatly discourage self-interpretation when the Bible so clearly says that each of us has the same capabilities through the Holy Spirit to interpret it for ourselves? 4. Why is it that I know people that are DESTITUTE in the group while "the company" is bringing in revenue. I know a bit about your business and I know that your expenses do not even come close to your revenue 5. I wanted you to tell me that the group doesn't encourage wives to leave their husbands and vice versa if one is struggling spiritually 6. I wanted you to tell me that all of the bad things I had heard about the group were not true and that the family that I love and the precious children that are involved were truly being "trained in the way that they should go". Instead all you could do was misquote scripture and ask me my agenda. Again, I have never been in the group, I have just seen my family torn apart by it. | ||
| broken_heart (broken_heart) New member Username: broken_heart Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.240.105.244 |
I have to agree with just_family in that there seems to be no straight answers availible. If there is nothing to hide why hide? From what I have been able to gather, where poeple sometimes think of a cult as a place where you shouldn't "drink the cool-aid", this is a different sort. They thrive off of their isolation from the rest of the world in an atempt to "shelter" themselves. Whether or not they are a cult (and I believe they are) they are definitely not Christian any more than Johova's wittnesses and Mormans. I do worry about my family that is involved. It would be nice to get some reassuring, truthful information that seems so rare from anyone who knows the answers to our questions. I fear for the children involved who are growing up in a place where lies and deceit are the only means of survival. | ||
| just_family (just_family) New member Username: just_family Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.170.250.33 |
That's so interesting that you put HH in a group that's not Christian. We want so bad to believe that our family is serving and wanting to honor the same God we are, but they just have so many rules that they have to live by. Reading through some of these posts it excites me to see healthy people that have moved on to see the love and the grace that is everything God offers. My family is still struggling to see that. I wish I knew how to help them and how to help them see God's grace and redemption. That the only equation that counts is faith=salvation... that's it! | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) New member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.79.207.134 |
There are many Christians in HH, mostly (although not exclusively) those who were believers before they joined the group. I know because I was one, and of course only God knows each person's heart. While I think it's difficult for someone to come to a saving knowledge of Christ in HH, it's certainly not beyond the capacity of God's grace to reach anyone, whether they are in an aberrant group/cult or not. I became a Christian while in HH, but not due to anything the church taught or believed (wich runs counter to salvation by grace through faith). My salvation experience was a result of the godly teaching I'd received before my HH days, and the persistent pursuit of God's Spirit! However, based on any definition set forth by orthodox evangelical believers, HH is not a Christian group, based on their doctrine and practice. A lot of people would disagree with me about this, I'm sure, but I don't think there's any way to call them a Christian group. I think it's important to make the differentiation between the individual and the system/group. Just _family and Broken_heart, Don't give up on your families--one of the biggest things that finally enabled us to leave was the unconditional love of our family and friends outside, even when we withdrew from them. | ||
| very_disturbed (very_disturbed) Junior Member Username: very_disturbed Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.27.7.241 |
The posts from just_family and broken_heart talked about the faith=salvation equation, and seemed to imply that all these "rules" and works are not only useless, but also make HH non-christian and a cult. I myself have attended churches since I left HH who preached the same thing. But here is my question. We all agree that in the teachings in the Bible, God's relationship to the church is likened to that of a man and his wife. What if the woman claims to have fallen deeply, irreversibly in love with her husband. They she starts being unfaithful, quits living with him, etc. don't her action show that she does not love him anymore? And don't you expect the husband to be upset and jealous? If he were not, it would seem to me that he did not care about his wife either. I say this to pose a question: Can one claim to love Jesus, be saved by his grace, and profess to have faith in him and do whatever works his flesh wishes, including things that undermind his commitment to his marriage commitment? {Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against you soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits you. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority among men: whether the king, as supreme authority, or the governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the talk of foolish men. Live as free men but do not use your freedom as a license to sin; live as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:13-16 To me this scripture says that yes Christ has freed us. But we are to use that freedom to do good, not to do whatever we want. We should abstain from things in the world which may undermine our commitment to Jesus, just like a married man must abstain from dating other women. I feel that in order to MAINTAIN a relationship with Jesus we must stay close to Him, and anything that will come between us is wrong. What good is faith without the works to back it up. It is like a fancy truck without any keys. It is like having the intention to do something for someone, but not doing it. It is like having love, but not expressing it. Faith without works is dead. As we learn to walk with Jesus, we realize that there are many temptations and distractions. Why does the above verse say to "abstain from sinful desires which war against your soul", if we are free because of our faith to do whatever we please. The only freedom I need to be a Christian is the freedom from sin. If I do things that tempt me to sin, or cause me to sin, then I am truly jepordizing my freedom from sin, right? Why does the scripture contain so many instructions for how to live if our life does not matter, only our faith? And furthermore, what is wrong with a group like HH who follows "rules" to keep them from sin? As we all know, all organizations have rules. If you are in the boy scouts, you must dress like a boy scout, go to the meetings and do the thing. Are they a cult? Some may think so. And why does the scripture say "Live such good lives that thought they may accuse you of wrong, they may see your good works and glorify God"? This verse seems to imply that those trying to live a Christian life will certainly be accused of doing wrong. Maybe even called a cult. May God help us all, Very disturbed | ||
| un_aware (un_aware) New member Username: un_aware Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 |
I am not a member nor an ex-member of HH, but I also have family members who are involved with HH. I have seen them go through many struggles and hardships. mostly the kids who are now all adults and still remain with HH. Several of whom have attempted to leave, but are afraid of turning "bad". I don't understand how if they are supposed to be Christians, they think they are going to stray away from God. Do they really believe that God is going to love them less if they leave? I have been over that may of times with my loved ones, and still don't understand their way of thinking. | ||
| very_disturbed (very_disturbed) Junior Member Username: very_disturbed Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.27.7.241 |
Oh, and one more question: Why does the scripture (Phil 2:12) say to "Continue to WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling" if it had nothing to do with works? If an initial conversion experience was enough why the need to CONTINUE? Something here does not add up with the doctine so popular on this forum. May God continue to help us all, Very Disturbed | ||
| the_general (the_general) Junior Member Username: the_general Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.5.167 |
Very_disturbed, you are assuming that everyone who is posting here is living a lifestyle of sin,or you are making a judgement that all things that are different than the way HH teaches is sin.Do you believe that a woman wearing a skirt that is only an inch below the knee instead of six or eight inches below the knee is sin.The point is that it seems you think that living according to HH patterns is how you remain faithfull to Christ.It seems that you are making the assumption that because Peple have left HH and are not living a lifestyle like thiers that somehow we are not being faithfull to our heavenly husband.In making the comparison between husband and wife I would like to say that Most normal wives have a lot of freedom to wear clothes that they like , eat what they like, have hobbies or recreation and friends of thier choosing and most normal husbands don't look at these things as unfaithfullness | ||
| just_family (just_family) New member Username: just_family Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.170.250.33 |
Again, no straight forward answers, just more misquoting. Even Satan and his demons can quote scripture. Just use your own words and answer my questions. I'm pretty fluent in scripture and can find the verses myself that will correspond with what you are saying. In the book of Corinthians Paul has all kinds of encouragment for them in spite of the fact that they were neck deep in sexual immorality. In the beginning of the book of Galatians Paul has NOTHING encouraging to say to them because they are HEAVILY encouraging legalism among the "brothern". IN FACT, he goes so far as to say those who are enforcing legalism deserve death! WOW, that's pretty strong language regarding legalism. Just something to think about. (Message edited by just_family on May 19, 2005) | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 567 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
just_family, Wow! Powerful comparison of those Scriptures! I will definitely take that as my "thought for the day" from FACTNet. Thank you! | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
quote: IN FACT, he goes so far as to say those who are enforcing legalism deserve death! whether or not there may be secondary application is another issue entirely but i think the main issue here speaks to those enforcing the legalism AT THAT TIME. | ||
| just_family (just_family) New member Username: just_family Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.170.250.33 |
Oh friend, I don't think that only applies to at that time! I encourage you to re-read the whole of Galatians and see what exactly what Paul was talking about. After a pretty intense study of the book, I've come away that anyone enforcing legalism is in the wrong, and I felt duly convicted by the book that judging someone else's need for more structure in their walk, is just a wrong as them thinking I need more structure in my walk. One of the parts that I was most amazed by Paul was that he really didn't care which way the people went, if they got circumsized fine, if they didn't fine, just appreciate grace and remember Christ. If you wear long skirts and jeans and homeschool your kids fine, if you don't fine, just appreciate grace and don't let someone else shame you if you don't have the same structured leanings as they do! | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
as i recall, Paul was writing to Jews in Galatia that were attempting to mix their old jewish ways with the gospel. when it comes to legalism what's the difference between early jewish christians and extremist calvinist christians? whatever, it is important to properly disseminate what was written for jews of the time and what was written for gentiles. itmt, we are not to ignore and throw away the law; in fact, all the more are we to uphold it. Galatians 3:21, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." laws vs customs and traditions so the Nazirites had long hair and this conflicts with 1 Corinthians 11:14, "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" laws, customs or traditions? so if a guy has long hair today and in this country is that against the rule of law? | ||
| truthbuyer (truthbuyer) Intermediate Member Username: truthbuyer Post Number: 114 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.82.193.33 |
I think if you all would take a few moments and ponder this issue a little more, you would realize that all of us are "legalistic." In fact, we are legalistic every day of our lives and that legalism extends to many areas of our everyday lives. I'll choose one area just to prove my point. How many of you are legalistic when it comes to driving your vehicle over the roads and highways? Do you drive on any side of the road you feel like? Or must you stay on one side by law? Do you drive any speed you want? Or must you drive a certain speed by law? Do you get to ignore those multi colored lights you see so often? Or do certain colors mean we must act a certain way by law? Do we cross the road any time we feel like it? Or must we wait till the way is clear by law? We are extremely legalistic every day of our lives because we follow various laws. Does this mean that we are deserving of death? No!!! The reason is that following the law is not wrong. The issue Paul dealt with in Galatians was the legalistic idea that Salvation was obtained and/or maintained by keeping the law of God. This effectively nullified the signifance of the wonderful grace of Jesus. The issue with HH is not rules and regulations; but the significance of keeping rules and regulations. If they are similar or the same as that which was addressed by Paul (Salvation or maintaining it), then we have a serious issue, for sure. Otherwise, the issue of rules and regulations comes down to the manner and method of motivating members to abide by these rules and regulations, which can be greatly abusive. True liberty in Christ does not consist of being free to ignore God's laws. To the contrary, Romans 8 tell us that the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus make us free from the law of sin and death. One law makes us free from another law! What happens under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? A few verses later Paul tells us that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. The only way a man was righteous under the law was to keep the law in its entirety. The only One to do this was, of course, Christ. Since Christ has given us His Spirit, He works in us, working out His Salvation in our lives by and through works of righteousness, all according to His law which He fulfilled. This is Christ's Law of Liberty, which all sons and daughters of God are under! | ||
| just_family (just_family) New member Username: just_family Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.170.250.33 |
Okay, so I'm not here to debate, I'm just here for answers which it looks like I'm not going to get. That's okay, it's par for the course and I didn't really expect straight answers. BUT... I want to leave with this thought. What if, like the Jews in Galatia who had lived under the law for so long they couldn't imagine pure grace, members and ex-members of HH have been under their own laws for so long they have no idea what pure grace and acceptance looks like. I pray that each one of you someday knows the redemption of knowing that you don't need any other acceptance than to accept God's grace, and that when you realize that, you'll be the ones to reach out to my family and show them the same! | ||
| broken_heart (broken_heart) New member Username: broken_heart Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.240.105.244 |
I too am a bit disappointed to still not be able to get answers. I feel that HH could desperately use this site to assure those who do not understand HH that they are on the right track, but I think we keep getting redirect to different issues that are not as important in order to avoid answering direct questions. This site has the potential to put all our worries at ease, but I am more discouraged than ever. What is being hidden? Why is there a reason to avoid sharp questions? I believe that with these frivolous debates we are missing the mark. There is more arguing than question and answering. All parts of Christianity have some form of legalism. The difference is how we view that legalism (as part of salvation or as separate from salvation as voluntary acts of worship and honor and gratitude, the first of which is utterly un-Biblical. We all, this site know where we differ on that topic and nobody is budging. We who believe in the latter place for works do not believe that salvation through works is not salvation at all. We who are worried about our families do not want to debate. We want answers. This is HH's golden oportunity to explain. Why run from it? Just a random question... why are HH members considered to not be filled with the Holy Spirit until they speak in tongues? | ||
| mic_s (mic_s) New member Username: mic_s Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.102.179 |
Dear Just_Family, It is a hard thing to have family in HH. At least I know it was for my family and is now for us. The only difference being we know how they think and how they operate and our folks didn't really. I think the greatest thing that our family did for us was to remain a part of our lives as much as we would allow them. They sometimes came to functions (i.e.: fairs, programs, etc.) that we invited them to, they had as much of a relationship with our kids as we would allow, they kept us involved in family get togethers (Christmas, birthdays, etc.). They just never went away and deep down we knew that they were there, available if we ever needed them. Another thing they did that was very important was ask questions. We gave them the standard HH answers that we had been trained (through meetings, literature, a book called "Questions Visitors Ask", etc) to give, which I'm sure never satisfied them as you know but it did do something for us. It made us think, it made us question. They weren't pushy (at least not most of them) but we questioned our answers because we knew deep down that something was wrong. Also, we had both been taught at a young age before HH the simple Gospel, the saving grace of Jesus and that never really left us. They also prayed a lot. I know my grandparents prayed every night for years and God answered those prayers. It took a long time, it's not an overnight process. Slowly we began to question, we began to see through things, we began to realize that the answers we were giving wasn't really the truth (or the whole truth), we began to see. But it's very hard to leave. You are taught that this, HH, is the body of Christ. When you're baptized in HH you commit, verbally and sign a paper as well, to this body of Christ forever. It is like a marriage but you're not marrying just Jesus but this "local expression". If you are not baptized in HH because you were baptized before joining (baptized that is in the UPC Pentecostal way of Jesus name baptism) you still make the same commitment when you take communion as a member there. You know that you will be shunned if you leave because you "are leaving the Body of Christ", you may lose your job if you work for HH or work for someone in HH, you may be forced to move or pressured at the least, you will lose your friends, your family who is there, and in the cases of husbands and wives where one stays and the other goes it causes a terrible riff in the marriage because of the pressures of HH. You see it's not like leaving a traditional (for lack of a better word) church and deciding to attend another one. You lose everything. You can't just say for example: I got a job promotion and have to move to another city and so therefore I'm leaving and will find another church in my new town or in the case of a young person who wants to go to college, or get a job somewhere other than in HH it's not acceptable. You are considered to be leaving them if you do this, to be "breaking your covenant" and if you break your covenant with them than your breaking your covenant with God. You are an antichrist, worse than an unbeliever. You have "walked in a greater light" than other Christians where ever they may be and or going backwards. This is what they believe and it's very very hard to get past all of that but it can be done. I will say that for some (as have posted here) that they still have a relationship of sorts with their family that they have left at HH. Usually that relationship is renewed after the individual has been gone for a while and they (HH) feel like they (the person who left) have begun to see the error of their ways, they began to believe that they were wrong in leaving, wrong in what they left for, etc. I'm almost sure someone will dispute something that I have said here but I'm giving you what I know, what I've experienced in the 20+years I was there from childhood to single hood to married with kids. For us personally leaving was hard, we lost 20 years, but we've gained a whole lot more. We know the saving power of God's grace. We know that our children know Jesus as the loving God He is. We've been very blessed in many ways and we made a conscious effort to find a local church, renew and go on in our relationship with Jesus, and raise our kids in a Christian home. As you are we are still concerned about friends and family that are still there and about others visiting and thinking of joining HH. I hope this helps a little. mic_s PS. I know that someone is working on answering your specific questions and will be posting soon. In Jesus, mic_s (Message edited by mic_s on May 20, 2005) | ||
| just_family (just_family) New member Username: just_family Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.170.250.33 |
WOW!! Thank you so much, your honesty is like nothing I've seen from current or ex HH members! I'm so excited for where God is taking your family!! Can I just ask what some of the questions that your family asked made you think? I want so desperately to be invovled in the children's lives, but I don't want to be pushy. | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Just family, I'm sorry no one answered your questions, If you were looking for the leadership or any current member of HH to post here, to my knowledge none have posted, even though I know for a fact they monitor it quite closely. I will try to answer from my experience and knowledge of HH teachings, 1. Q. I want you to explain to me why the "private worship services". That's so unbiblical! HH's A. All Church's have closed meetings, usually on Wednesday. We just have ours on Sundays. Anyone who wants to come to an open meeting can come to a Friday night cell group meeting. It's like a date you get to know us a little bit more each time and if you like what you see then you marry us and come to Sunday meetings. What did you expect, to jump right into bed with us (always said with a little laugh and smile)? It's also like a university's graded course, you can't just drop into the middle of a course, you must take the course from the beginning. Truth hunters A. First since they view themselves more as a family than a Church, They say that Sunday meetings are like a family sit-down to go over how the children have been disobedient. Discipline will be administered, any "attacks" against them will be told along with counter measures. Any "NEW" revelations will be revealed and the problems and "False" doctrine of other Church's such as Grace, will be discussed and explained away in great length. Often meetings will last four to six hours. Also it is the only time the founder is on true display and so would be up for close criticism by outsiders. As for biblical reasons I know of none. J 2. Q. I want to know why you feel the need to send "spies" out to find out what's going on in member's homes. If it really was a loving environment then couldn't you just ask what's going on? AND... how does your pastor have time to follow up on these spy reports??? Doesn't he have better things to do than follow up on the spy reports. Seriously, get the log out of your own eye! Their A. We do not send out spies. Truth hunters A. This is a complex question, one not easily answered. It's not so much a spy network but one of reporting, sort of a way to gain points or respect or trust from the Elders. For example HH does not allow its members to watch TV, so if you see another member watching TV at Wal-Mart, it doesn't matter if it's the news or a car wax commercial, you are taught that you have an obligation to report this struggling member because if you don't then you may be responsible for them loosing their soul. This of course applies to every area of life in HH, Homes, cars, clothes, music, self conduct, Talk, you name it. If you don't tote the line, someone will tell. The founder has told the people that God gave him out of body experiences where he was taken into member's bedrooms and could listen to them speak of questions against the leadership. Weird huh. 3. Q. Why does the church so greatly discourage self-interpretation when the Bible so clearly says that each of us has the same capabilities through the Holy Spirit to interpret it for ourselves? Their A. 1 Because of hundreds and thousands of years of misinterpretation of scripture and teachings by the misguided church leaders through the years we have grown up with certain ideas and beliefs that are not based on scripture but upon false doctrine. The brothers have given their lives and time to understand the scripture, and have found that the English translation of the Holy Bible can be misleading. *Note they are working on their own Bible. 2. We don't teach any such thing, everybody is free to read the Bible, we encourage it. Truth hunters A. When I asked the #2 Elder in HH if I could stop reading their literature and just read my Bible he said sure, if I could understand it, then went on to say that MOST can't understand. When I came to them with scriptures that I felt contradicted their teachings, I was yelled at, and asked who I thought I was for questioning them. Q.4. Why is it that I know people that are DESTITUTE in the group while "the company" is bringing in revenue. I know a bit about your business and I know that your expenses do not even come close to your revenue. Their A . There are none destitute, that's the beauty of our life style, when one family is in need another will meet their need, we have seen brothers tens of thousands of dollars in debt and the Lord lay on another's heart to pay his debt in full, it has happened again and again. The Lord has given us everything we need for life and godliness. Through the body he meets every need. Truth hunters A. There are destitute, or was when I was there. Maybe I was the last oneJ but I know I wasn't. The money goes to the "Vision". The literature is what they view as the grain being stored up by Joseph in Egypt, for the days of famine that are coming upon the Church world, it will "Save" their lost brothers, Pentecostals (Benjamin), and all the other brothers (the other denominations). No cost is spared when it comes to completing the literature. Computers, printing presses, etc. Q.5. I wanted you to tell me that the group doesn't encourage wives to leave their husbands and vice versa if one is struggling spiritually. HH's A. That's ridiculous, we would never teach something like that. Truth hunters A. This is one of those college courses that you can't jump into the middle of, and precisely why you can't go to Sunday meetings. This would be considered part of your Homestead PHD studies. The "Nutshell Version" is, they believe your commitment to Homestead Heritage, which is your heavenly husband is greater that your earthly marriage to your husband. Your husband is only your covering as long as he is under the covering of Heritage ministries. If he should leave HH, you are no longer bound by your vow to him because he is dead in Christ, and your vow was only till death. I hope this helps you, there are those of us who have found Grace and wanted to share it with our friends and family in HH. But as you can see there are those who would rob us of the Grace that has been given, and have us turn again to the bondage that held us for so long. Don't give up. Even though HH is a black hole, God's arm is strong enough to reach in and pull your loved ones free. Hey, He did it for me. As others have said, just keep loving them, you have no idea what a strength and comfort you are to them even though they may reject you on the surface. Truth Hunter | ||
| dowen (dowen) Member Username: dowen Post Number: 51 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.54.214.51 |
Just_family, I would like to assure you that it is possible to have a wonderful relationship with your family members involved in HH. I will humbly warn you though, if they know you are involved in this forum and trying to find answers from biased ex-members, such as myself, it will sadly strain your ability to have the kind of relationship you desire. I know how frustrating it can be to not get the kind of answers you want, but I hope you will be able to find the Grace to ask again the leaders of HH, and your family members. I assure you many members of HH have very good relationships with family outside of HH. Some of those ties can be strained however, when both sides stop being respectful of the others views and convictions. I hope this encourages you in some way. | ||
| broken_heart (broken_heart) New member Username: broken_heart Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.240.105.244 |
Thanks so much for all your honesty. It is really comforting to know finally some ways to proceed with our familial relationships. Although it saddens me to have my suspicians solidified, it is refreshing to finally know something, not just assume something. It really helps to hear someone say that they do appreciate us even though it may not seem like it. It's really hard, like in any relationship, to stay in it when you just keep getting pushed away for what seems like no reason. Thanks so much. Be assured that I will pray for these families that are involved and for you who have left that you will continue to experience the blessings of God's long arm. | ||
| hater101 (hater101) New member Username: hater101 Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.112.0.204 |
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| no_doubt (no_doubt) New member Username: no_doubt Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Dear Just Family and anyone else who has relatives in HH , I want to tell you a little of my experience. Being raised most of my life in HH (20+yrs.) I never was able to have much of a relationship with my relatives outside HH but I still loved them very much. I never could tell them anything, never ask for help and always had to put on a happy face and say everything was great. Since I have left I was shocked to find my relatives were full of questions and they told me they could never get straight answers about anything. We have literally spent hours with them answering their questions. As an ex-member my family in HH has mostly rejected me as I am a covenant breaker, apostate, deceived and gone back on the "greater light" in their eyes. Not being able to help or talk to them much I have helped my relatives outside HH understand them. After I had told them some things they wept and said "Now I feel I can help, thanks so much for helping me understand them". I can`t tell you how much it means to have my grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. in my life again. They are truly my support system. Please don`t give up, you don`t know how it means to them even if they don`t show it. May God Bless you, No Doubt (Message edited by no doubt on May 20, 2005) | ||
| chicory (chicory) New member Username: chicory Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.90 |
I was apart of HH for many years. I read a lot of books when I came out searching to understand how I, along time Child of Christ and studier of the Bible, ever became involved with this group. The book that helped me the most was Twisted Scriptures. There are excerpts of the book on line at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/tbook.html You might first want to go to this page so you can read the home page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/index.html When I read this book, I was stunned by the fact the author had not been a part of HH herself. Her description of the "discipleship" process fits that used by HH so well. Most importantly, the author shares how to best understand and help friends or family who are in groups like HH. Most of the member of HH are some the sweetest people I ever met. I have a child named after Truth Hunter's Mom and one named after dowens' Dad. I have prayed for years that they and their families would be set free. God is answering our prayers. I sincerely believe your constant prayer for your loved ones is very important. Also pray for those in leadership within HH. I believe they are sincere in what they are espousing and they understand it to be right and in the name of God. Please hold no ill feelings toward anyone in the group. They, like Paul was before his conversion, are zealous for what they believe is God's will. If God could free the leaders from their bondage they could become wonderful spreaders of the true Gospel of Christ. I clearly remember my group leader telling me to pray for BA, (the "apostle,") because BA carries the burden of all our salvations on his shoulders and that if affected his health. If he truly believes this, how sad... Please have compassion. Love the men. Let us always separate our distain for the system, the doctrines, lies, and spirits that bind them and those in other groups from the leaders and members. Even though God will hold them accountable for what they are teaching, He still loves them as much as anyone else. God is All Good, All powerful, and All Love. What a wonderful and mighty combination of attributes. Surely He is worthy of our love, adoration and praise. He is my Creator and Redeemer, all I am should be His. God make is so. Amen. Chicory | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.34.137.115 |
I would like to ask any and all persons posting on this web site, if in your opinion the following quotes would describe an honest believer, or a cult member/leader. In my opinion they are very accurate teaching according to the Bible. I would welcome anyone’s opinion on this subject. "…our teaching encourages good works. We do not preach a faith that has no good works. Faith and good works belong together. By faith we obtain Christ's righteousness, but we cannot do this without at the same time receiving Christ's sanctification." or: "The obedience towards God is the obedience of faith and good works; that is, he who believes in God, and does what God has commanded, is obedient unto him" | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
quote: "…our teaching encourages good works. We do not preach a faith that has no good works. Faith and good works belong together. By faith we obtain Christ's righteousness, but we cannot do this without at the same time receiving Christ's sanctification." it looks fine until we get to: quote: "a faith that has no good works" this is starting to look like "faith" here means "a belief" (as it could mean any religion or belief one might care to use), it is not a religion or belief structure but *a means to approach that belief* structure. quote: "Faith and good works belong together" faith is not dependent upon good works, though good works are an evidence of that faith. quote: "but we cannot do this without at the same time receiving Christ's sanctification." sanctification has no part of salvation for it is a lifelong *process* whereas salvation is instantaneous. quote: The obedience towards God is the obedience of faith and good works; that is, he who believes in God, and does what God has commanded, is obedient unto him" again, we cannot integrally link works as a necessary component of faith. James 2:18, "...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." both are saved, but one is investing the talents while the other buries it.(Matt 25) if i may be allowed to attempt a rephrase: "…Christianity's teachings encourages good works. We do not preach an abiding faith in Jesus that produces no good works. Good works follow and is the evidence of our faith in Jesus for salvation; but our salvation is not dependent upon our good works. Through faith we obtain Christ's gift of salvation, and as we continue our walk in becoming Christ-like our continuing sanctification is evidenced in that walk." Works do not save. Faith does not save. Only the Object of our faith can save. But only if that Object is Jesus Christ. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 577 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
Define "good works." Often, that definition is the crucial factor in identifying a legalistic, authoritarian group. Typically, such a group will cite such things as external appearance, behavioral "do's and don'ts", submission to leadership, etc. Rarely will the fruit of the Spirit figure in to the definition. | ||
| chicory (chicory) New member Username: chicory Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.86 |
When I, as a Christian, do good works because I am saved and my Lord works in me to do good works, and my desire to do them is out of love for my Savior who has already redeemed me by His Blood, then my works are God centered. When I do good works to complete or insure my salvation then my life is self centered. When in HH I worked hard because I loved the Lord, but also because I was taught there that my sacrifice needed to be whole and complete or it wasn't acceptable to God and my salvation was at stake. We even marked charts hung on the wall for our children’s chores. If the chore was unfinished or done in an unacceptable manner then the child received a bad mark on the chart. Only when the child had shown victory by accomplishing the chore in an acceptable manner consistently over time were the marks literally whited out or forgiven. I was told by my leader that grace was just another chance to get it right. WRONG!!!! In Jesus, our mistakes and imperfections are covered by His Blood, not our eventually getting it right. Our sacrifice, our cross, is based on the love we have for Him, because He first loved us. We bare our cross because we are saved, not in ordered to get saved. In HH it was always "our cross," "our cross," and "our cross." His cross stood as an example. The importance of our own cross over shadowed His. We dismissed the words, "It is finished." If you need the promise of salvation to spur you onto good works, then you don't know His love for you. When you know His great love and mercy and what He has done for you, good works will flow out of your heart in love for Him. God loves you so much that he sent His only begotten Son to make the only acceptable sacrifice for you. He sent Him to do what you can not do. All your righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus suffered and died for payment of your sin. When you believe this and that Jesus is Gods Son and have the faith to believe that His sacrifice was and is all that is needed for you to be saved you will find that that faith will produce works in your life. You will also hate sin. If you do not understand this, then you have been taught and believe another gospel. Maybe it is one in which you just make a confession with your mouth and your life is not changed, (the dead faith,) or one in which you must complete or maintain your salvation by works of your own, (faith in Jesus + yourself.) I am sure there are other gospels beside these. None of them true. Ask yourself why do you do good works? Can God be so Good and so Loving to give you the GIFT of Salvation? Can you love Him enough to do good works even if it isn't required to maintain your salvation? If you know Him and His gift like I do, you surely love Him that much. Any other love is self serving and self-centered: Really not love at all, except love of self. | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.34.137.115 |
I still would like an answer to whether the above quotes are what you call "legalistic" or are they living as scripture commanded us to. Mt. 16.24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And again in Corinthians, 1 Cor. 15.31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. It seems to me that he felt the need to die to his flesh daily, not just one time, but a continuing process. Just a thought, but I would like your definition of the above quotes are they wrong or right. According to the scriptures I just quoted it would seem to me that these quotes are very accurate. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 578 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
coin, Define "good works." It's hard to answer a question such as yours if you don't know whether you're using the words in the same way. | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.34.137.115 |
I was looking for your opinion, in regard to the quotes I posted. As far as what I was talking about, when I said works, first that quote was not mine. Secondly HH taught, that the works we were supposed to do were the works defined by scripture in ephesians. Eph. 2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. This is what I mean by works I still would like your opinion on the quotes as they stand, not my interpretation. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 79 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
Mt. 16.24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. All hangs on the pivotal word of the verse, "will"--> is willing, desires. take up: the condemned carried their own cross cross: the usage here is a figure of speech, "metonymy of adjunct", for the suffering associated with the burden. the verse is an historic account wherein Jesus told His disciples to follow Him. works does not appear to be the subject here. 1 Cor. 15.31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. I believe the subject in the surrounding passage is baptism, not works. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 579 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
I still would like your opinion on the quotes as they stand, I'd have to go with curious1 as far as the interpretation. if in your opinion the following quotes would describe an honest believer, or a cult member/leader. As for that, it would be completely presumptious to make that kind of determination based on those few sentences without any additional clarification. "…our teaching encourages good works" requires amplification of the specific teaching as well as the definition of good works. A but following "By faith we obtain Christ's righteousness" is a red flag for legalism. "The obedience towards God is the obedience of faith and good works; that is, he who believes in God, and does what God has commanded, is obedient unto him" Again, no determination is possible without clarification of context -- is this is in reference to salvation or to the Christian walk? | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
quote: "A but following "By faith we obtain Christ's righteousness" is a red flag for legalism."  from the wacky definitions dep't: but-but-but just forget whatever i said before the "but" 'cause here's what i really mean!  | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 580 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.227.84.69 |
So true!!!! | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
I would like to explain why HH will not discus doctrine in a form such as this, and will ask your motive for questioning should you visit them. This is also the reason you will not and cannot receive straight answers when you visit them. They described truth as a tree, giving shade from the hot sun, bearing fruit to feed, and is full of life. HH teaches that all the other churches that they know of, teach fragmented truths, bits and pieces of God's revelation. While it may be truth, it is no more than this tree of life cut up into cord wood, they give their congregation a log of truth every Sunday, like throwing a piece of wood on a fire it will keep you warm for a little while, but then just becomes ash. There is no life in it, just death. Making the church, "The congregation of the dead". Heb. 1:1-2 says 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. This scripture means according to HH, in the past fragments were all people had, but now B.A. teaches that the Son and heir of all things is the corporate Body of Christ, God's Sons. (The constitutional Leaders of HH). The unconstitutional members of HH are considered slaves in the kingdom of God, Ga. 4:1 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. Ga. 4:2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. They teach since the natural mind cannot understand the things of God, only when we are in relationship with his Spirit by becoming one with Him, married to his Son (The leaders in HH) can we be lead into all truth. Using this scripture out of context, they tell their followers that as long as they are infants and children in the kingdom they differ not from slaves. Therefore they will not inherit life after death unless submitted to the patterns and laws of HH. Submission = salvation. For you to understand and learn whole doctrine (The tree that gives life), you must be planted in the Garden of God (HH). A place where you can be watered, dunged and pruned by the gardener (The Elders). So since you are of the congregation of the dead, and believe in man centered understandings of truth. You are cut off from the Head, you are not a part of the body of Christ. They cannot reveal doctrinal truths to you, because they see it as casting pearls before swine, or chopping off a limb of the Tree of Life that will only bring you death. That's why you get ice cream or lemon-aid stories when you visit HH. To them its like When Jesus told parables to the crowds, but revealed the true meaning to his disciples. This is a very condensed version of pages and pages of HH literature, though I believe it still portrays an accurate summary of their beliefs. If you for some reason some of you believe that this is true/sound doctrine just go read these scriptures in whole in the context of their chapters, and I believe the Lord will open your eyes to the Truth, and reveal the deception of HH. (Message edited by truth hunter on May 23, 2005) | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.34.137.115 |
truth-hunter : Was your last post supposed to answer my question in post #7? If it was it did not seem to make much sense. But if it was just another empty accusation made by a slanderer bent on destroying another’s reputation, then it made a lot of sense in some warped way. Please kindly answer the question if you can. I think it is a perfectly legitimate question. I have given you direct quotes and you refuse to answer whether these teachings would make a group "authoritarian" or "a cult" or "legalistic". But you don’t seem to have a problem assuming that HH is a cult when you have nothing but empty allegations and slanderous comments made by exmembers. You have become very good at slinging mud but you cannot answer specific questions or quotes because you will be revealed for what you really are. This seems to be a double standard, here you have just complained that HH "will not discus doctrine" well neither will you, I have had this post up for several days and no one will answer my question. You said of HH "you will not and cannot receive straight answers" this describes you, and most of the people on factnet. You beat around the bush and won't answer any direct question with direct answers. Not one single one of you could or has answered my question, with anything other than ambiguous, beating around the bush. (Message edited by coin on May 24, 2005) (Message edited by coin on May 24, 2005) | ||
| the_general (the_general) Junior Member Username: the_general Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.5.167 |
Ok coin,The quotes sound completely legitamate and I would say that they describe a correct teaching according to the Bible.I would agree that faith without works is dead.I would also say that how you interpret works and what you believe the purpouse of the works are is also a factor which is not known from the short quotes that you posted.If a group of people believe that your salvation depends on how well you perform your works such as,Do you comb your hair right, do you eat the right kind of food are your clothes plain enough, do you obey the authority of the leadership enough etc.then I think that the group has missed the point of faith and grace.So the question is,How do the people who wrote what you quoted Interpret sanctification and works,and what is the meaning of what they wrote in the context of everything else that they have writen and what they believe it all means.From my experiance the actions that precede and follow what has been taught can give a completely different meaning to a short set of qoutes that sound accurate. (Message edited by the_general on May 24, 2005) | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Dearest Coin, The warped ravings I agree with, being as every thing I wrote was direct from HH literature. And no, it doesn't make sense, but it explains why you can't get answers from them. Get a copy of Questions visitors ask, everything I wrote is on pages 188-191 Under, "Can I ask about your doctrine?". If you want (me) to give straight answers, ask straight questions and address them to me. It seemed that your question had already been answered. I was simply addressing a reoccurring request from some posters for HH participation in these debates and accusations. | ||
| just_family (just_family) New member Username: just_family Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.170.250.33 |
Coin, I'm here to testify and I have received the most straight forward answers about Homestead Heritage from Truth hunter!! I would LOVE for you to answer each one of my questions above as clearly and as concisely in your own words without random scripture as he has!! | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 117 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
truth_hunter, What do you know of HH’s earlier years? The CT article yielded few clues though from (see excerpts and links below) what little can be gleaned is it possible they haven’t just “forged close ties with Anabaptists” but, instead, could their history actually go deeper to include not just Oneness Pentecostals but (earlier) also (going by comparative datings of where which group was when) the Bruderhofs and/or possibly the Hutterites? (ps, the original copy/pastes have numerous links in the text though the links provided will yield these) Watchman Fellowship’s 2001 Index of Cults and Religions http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/002/32.56.html February 2005 Where Community Is No Cliché http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/002/32.56.html Brazos de Dios residents are not Amish or even Mennonites, although they have forged close ties with traditional Anabaptists. Homestead Heritage began as an inner-city mission in New York City. In the 1970s and 1980s, it evolved into an experiment in community living, moving to a Colorado farm and then to Texas. Along the way, changes came about and an Anabaptist influence surfaced. While some elders come from Oneness Pentecostal backgrounds, The focus is on conversion to Christ by faith and self-sacrificial discipleship within the body of Christ They never cut their hair but wear it up in the old-fashioned style often associated with Pentecostals of an earlier era. Anabaptists http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_a-b.htm Any of a group of sects of the early Reformation period of the 16th century that believed in rebaptism of people as adults. Infant baptism was not recognized as valid and the Catholic Mass was rejected. Anabaptist means “one who baptizes again.” They believed in non-violence and opposed state run churches. Oneness Pentecostalism: http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#A (Jesus Only) A heresy that emerged from the mainstream Pentecostal movement during the years 1914–1916. Unlike traditional Pentecostals, “Oneness” followers deny the doctrine of the Trinity in favor of a view similar to Monarchianism. In addition to this heresy, most Oneness Pentecostal organizations also teach that speaking in tongues, baptism (in Jesus’ name only), and maintaining various moral “standards” are necessary for salvation. See Salvation by Works, Modalism. Profile available. Founder: Frank Ewart Founding Date: 1913 Structure: Numerous denominations and independent churches. Official Publications: Harvestime radio program, The New Birth, The Oneness of God. Unique Terms: Apostolic, Jesus Only, Jesus Name baptism, prophecy wheel, emphasis on Acts 2:38. Groups: United Pentecostal Church International, Apostolic World Christian Federation, Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ, Church of the Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith, Pentecostal Assemblies of the World. History The founding date of the Oneness Pentecostal movement can be traced to a specific event: a revival meeting in Los Angeles on April 15, 1913. The culmination of the meeting occurred when Canadian revivalist R.E. McAlister baptized converts not according to the Trinitarian formula of the historic Christian Church, but in the name of Jesus only.1 While many at the meeting were shocked by this action, the burgeoning evangelist Frank Ewart spent many hours with McAlister following the service and was converted to the practice. According to many Oneness Pentecostals, McAlister taught Ewart that baptizing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, as stated in Acts 2:38,2 was the fulfillment of the Trinitarian creed in Matthew 28:19.3 The passage from Matthew is fulfilled because Jesus, the Son, is simply the ultimate expression of the monotheistic God (rather than the Son being a distinct Person within the Trinitarian Godhead). The next significant date in the development of the movement occurred exactly two years later, on April 15, 1915, when Ewart gave his first sermon on Acts 2:38. David Reed believes that, despite the claims of Oneness Pentecostals that Ewart preached the message given to him by McCalister, Ewart did not actually develop his modalistic theology until after this sermon.4 Nonetheless, the approximate date for the development of Ewart's teaching regarding the necessity of baptism in the name of Jesus only can be traced to this period. Bruderhof Communities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruderhof The Bruderhof Communities (German: place of brothers) are Christian faith-based communities with branches in New York and Pennsylvania in the USA, the United Kingdom, Germany, and Australia. They have previously been called The Society of Brothers and The Hutterian Brethren. They were founded in Germany in 1920 by Eberhard Arnold. He was a religious seeker for several years. Then in 1920 he rented a farm at Sannerz, Germany and founded a religious community with seven adults. Their inspiration was first church in Jerusalem who shared all things in common as described in the Book of Acts. The teachings of Jesus, in particular those concerning nonviolence, faithfulness in marriage, and love of neighbors and enemies in the Sermon on the Mount are central to Bruderhof life. Also influential was the example of the early Anabaptists of the Radical Reformation in the 1500s. When the group outgrew the farm at Sannerz, they moved to the nearby Rhön Mountains. While there, Arnold discovered that the Hutterites (a body he had studied with great interest) were still in existence in North America. In 1930 he traveled to meet the Hutterites and was ordained as a Hutterian minister. Nevertheless, acceptance of the Bruderhof was not consistent among the various branches of Hutterites in North America. With the rise of Adolf Hitler and Nazism, the Rhön community moved its draft-age men and children to Liechtenstein around 1934 because of their conscientious refusal to serve in the armed forces and to accept Nazi teachers. This community became known as the Alm Bruderhof. Continuing pressure from the Nazi government caused others to move to England and found the Cotswold Bruderhof in 1936. On April 14, 1937, secret police surrounded the Rhön Bruderhof, confiscated the property, and gave the remaining community members forty-eight hours to flee the country. By 1938, all the Bruderhof members had reassembled in England. While in England, the population grew to over 350 members, largely through the addition of young English members seeking an alternative to war. Even before the outbreak of World War II, the community’s German members and its pacifist stance attracted deep suspicion locally resulting in economic boycotts. When confronted with the option of either interning all German members, or leaving England as a group, the Bruderhof choose the latter, and began to look for refuge abroad. Soon after England entered the war, the Bruderhof emigrated to Paraguay — the only country that would accept a pacifist community of mixed nationalities. During the first year in the Paraguayan wilderness, Bruderhof members — mostly city-raised Europeans — fought a losing battle against primitive conditions, a harsh climate, and natural pests. Babies were lost to tropical disease. But the community persevered, carving three settlements out of the jungle, as well as a hospital for community members and local Paraguayans. The only clinic in the area, it served tens of thousands for the next two decades. By the early 1960s, the community in Paraguay had grown to about 700 members. In 1954, the Bruderhof started a settlement in the United States and near Rifton, New York, in response to a dramatic increase in the number of American guests. Known as the Woodcrest Bruderhof (http://www.woodcrestbruderhof.com), the community revived the movement as hundreds of new members joined, many from other communal groups across the country. New communities were also founded in Pennsylvania (1957) and Connecticut (1958). At the same time, although the Paraguayan communities were thriving, a growing frustration with their isolation and inaccessibility resulting in their closing. By 1962, all members had relocated to the northeastern United States, or to England. Hutterite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Like the two best-known Anabaptist denominations, the Amish and the Mennonites, the Hutterites had their beginnings in the Radical Reformation of the 16th Century. Originating in the Austrian province of Tyrol, the forerunners of the Hutterites migrated to Bohemia to escape persecution. There, under the leadership of Jakob Hutter, they developed the communal form of living based on the Book of Acts, Chapters 2 (especially verse 44), 4, and 5 and 2 Corinthians in the New Testament, which distinguishes them from other Anabaptists. In Bohemia, the Hutterites flourished for over a century, until renewed persecution forced them once again to migrate*: first to Transylvania, then in the early 18th century, to Ukraine in the Russian Empire. In Ukraine, the Hutterites enjoyed relative prosperity, although their distinctive communal life was suppressed by the influence of the neighboring Mennonites. The final great migration occurred as three waves of Hutterite emigrants left for the New World in the 19th Century in response to demands by the Russian authorities that the Hutterites participate in military service. Named for the leaders of each wave, all three of the three groupings (the Schmiedeleut, Dariusleut, and Lehrerleut) settled initially in the Dakota Territory and later two Dariusleut colonies were established in central Montana. Here each group re-established the traditional Hutterite communal life style. For a few years in the early 1950s, and from 1974 to 1990, the Arnoldleut (or Bruderhof Communities) were recognized as Hutterites. Although the majority of Hutterites live in the Midwestern United States and Canada, Hutterite colonies have been established in New York State, Nigeria, Great Britain, and Japan (the New York and Nigerian communites are affiliated with the Bruderhof group). During World War I, the pacifist Hutterites suffered persecution in the United States, resulting in the emigration of 17 of the 18 existing colonies in America to the provinces of Manitoba and Alberta in Canada. With the passage of laws protecting conscientious objectors, however, some of the Schmiedeleut ultimately returned to the Dakotas beginning in the 1930s. During World War II, the province of Alberta passed the "Communal Properties Act", severely restricting the expansion of the Daruisleut and Lehrerleut colonies. This act resulted in the establishment of a number of new colonies in Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Montana, and eastern Washington State in the 1940s and 1950s. Today approximately one-fourth of the Hutterite colonies are located in the United States and nearly three-fourths are in Canada. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
History, Ties and Similarities I'm wondering to what extent those escaping WWII by going to South America (Paraguay?)and later, around 1962, made their way into the US and (notably) New York (or, possibly, even, influences from others (incl Mennonites) already in the US and Canada) might not have some earlier influence on what later became the early HH. There seems many similarities based on what other threads here have provided. It is difficult to form a concise opinion when much that is portrayed are symptoms. Is this a correct depiction? Do you, as former HH, recognize any similarities in belief and communal issues in what follows? Is it possible for one to see HH's historic place in the "grander scheme of (anabaptismism) things?" Also, I'm wondering how much the 1848 Millerite event may have had an influence (its evidences are easy to see on the Adventist group) on some of the earlier Hutterites and also where/when the Oneness Pentacostals managed to inject their effect. Hutterites, or Hutterian Brethren http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/hutterites.htm Several early Anabaptist leaders helped shape the Hutterites. Jacob Hutter joined the movement soon after its founding, and had such an influence on it that it took his name. The Protestant version of the Bible is the scripture of the Hutterites. The movement has always been meticulous about documenting its own history, and early manuscript history books are greatly treasured in the movement, although they do not have the status of scripture. Over 40,000, in more than 425 colonies in the U. S. and Canada. Communal The Anabaptists constituted the radical wing of the Protestant Reformation and began to appear in Germany and Switzerland in the early 1520s. The direct predecessors of the Hutterites were Anabaptists in Zurich, Switzerland, who advocated the separation of church and state, adult baptism, adoption of a disciplined way of life, separation from nonbelievers, and pacifism. They were persecuted by both Catholics and Protestants, and in fleeing from persecution they spread to many locations in Europe. Moravia, which had become relatively diverse religiously as a result of the rise of several pre-Protestant religious movements, became a haven for the Anabaptists, and it was there that the Hutterites emerged as a separate body. In 1528, their chronicle records, the Anabaptists who would become the Hutterites committed themselves to community of goods, giving all personal possessions and money to the group as a whole. Complete community of goods remains one of the distinctive features of Hutterite life today. Anabaptists agree with most Protestants (indeed, most Christians) on most theological basics, but differ on several vital points. Their reading of the Bible concludes that they are commanded to be pacifists, and traditionally they have refused all military service, even noncombatant service. They believe in adult, not infant, baptism, a practice that led to their being ridiculed as Anabaptists, or “rebaptizers,” by their opponents; since the name was originally pejorative, it was long resisted by members of the movement, and some today still object to it. They advocate a disciplined way of life in which members adhere to the church’s strict behavioral standards, and the individual will is subjugated to the collective will of the community. To help themselves maintain proper behavior they have traditionally tried to minimize contact with persons outside the movement. They are strong believers in the separation of church and state, having argued from their earliest days that civil magistrates should have no right to punish wrong belief. Some Anabaptists, in the pursuit of simple and disciplined living, reject certain features of modern life and technology. The Amish, for example, do not drive cars or have electricity in their homes. The Hutterites embrace modern technology, as long as it does not interfere with traditional lifeways, and have become efficient modern farmers. However, unlike other Anabaptists, they insist on holding all property in common, a belief stemming from early Christian practices described in the biblical book of Acts. After conflicts over pacifism, the most vexing antagonism with which Hutterites have been confronted has been opposition to their acquisition of farmland. Some traditional farmers are scared that the Hutterites, with their low labor costs, will outcompete them. The high Hutterite birth rate has meant that new colonies are built and opened every year, each of them occupying several thousand acres of farmland. The first legal restriction on Hutterite property ownership came in the Canadian province of Alberta in 1942, at which time sale of land to Hutterites was legally prohibited; the law was amended in 1947 to let a new colony buy up to 6,400 acres of land, but only if it were located at least 40 miles from an existing colony. Although the law was later repealed, Hutterites responded to it by opening new colonies in Montana and Saskatchewan. Other jurisdictions have also contemplated restrictions on Hutterite land purchases, although nowhere has the sentiment for such restrictions been as high as it once was in Alberta. The Bruderhof Community: A communal society started in Germany in the 1920s and based on the sixteenth-century Moravian Anabaptist sect of Jacob Hutter, which was part of the Radical Reformation. The group is also called the Society of Brothers and the Hutterian Brethren. The basic theology of the group is Protestant but, according to former members and other critics, the group exercises inappropriate control over the members and practices shunning and other forms of spiritual abuse. Shunning: (Disfellowshipping) An effective technique of control used by Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups to instill discipline, punish, or maintain idealistic purity. Members who do not maintain the group's behavioral expectations or who disagree on dogma are isolate the current, faithful members. This includes, in most cases, even family members or friends, who are not allowed to talk or share a meal with the shunned. The faithful, who violate the rule and communicate with the dissident, can themselves be shunned. The practice has been identified as a form of milieu control, one of the characteristic marks of cultic mind control Spiritual Abuse: The damage or mistreatment of someone seeking spiritual or religious help or guidance. This injury can occur when someone uses a spiritual position or office to exercise an improper and unhealthy domination or control over followers. Legalism can be a form of spiritual abuse. Legalism: The belief that spirituality or salvation is dependent upon strict observance of laws and/or rituals, implying salvation by works. Or, a system of religious rules must be kept to please God or religious leaders, sometimes resulting in a kind of spiritual abuse. Spiritual Abuse http://www.watchman.org/profile/abusepro.htm by David Henke Founding Date: Spiritual abuse is as old as false religion itself. While the practice is old, the term "spiritual abuse" may have been coined first by Jeff VanVonderen. Organizational Structure: Can occur under virtually any organizational structure, but "top down" hierarchical structures are especially well suited to systemic spiritual abuse. DEFINED Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS #1) Authoritarian The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority. Because a group claims to have been established by God Himself the leaders in this system claim the right to command their followers. This authority supposedly comes from the position they occupy. In Matthew 23:1-2 Jesus said the Scribes and Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat," a position of spiritual authority. Many names are used but in the abusive system this is a position of power, not moral authority. The assumption is that God operates among His people through a hierarchy, or "chain of command." In this abusive system unconditional submission is often called a "covering," or "umbrella of protection" which will provide some spiritual blessing to those who fully submit. Followers may be told that God will bless their submission even if the leadship is wrong. It is not their place to judge or correct the leadership - God will see to that. #2) Image Conscious The abusive religious system is scrupulous to maintain an image of righteousness. The organization's history is often misrepresented in the effort to demonstrate the organization's special relationship to God. The mistaken judgements and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority. Impossibly high legalistic standards of thought and behavior may be imposed on the members. Their failure to live up to these standards is a constant reminder of the follower's inferiority to his leaders, and the necessity of submission to them. Abusive religion is, at heart, legalism. Abusive religion is also paranoid. Because the truth about the abusive religious system would be quickly rejected if recognized, outsiders are shown only a positive image of the group. This is rationalized by assuming that the religion would not be understood by "worldly" people; therefore they have no right to know. This attitude leads to members being secretive about some doctrines and the inner policies and proceedures of the group. Leaders, especially, will keep secrets from their members. This secrecy is rooted in a basic distrust of others because the belief system is false and can not stand scrutiny. #3) Suppresses Criticism Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues. The person who dissents becomes the problem rather than the issue he raised. The truth about any issue is settled and handed down from the top of the hierarchy. Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Thinking for oneself is suppressed by pointing out that it leads to doubts. This is portrayed as unbelief in God and His anointed leaders. Thus the follower controls his own thoughts by fear of doubting God. #4) Perfectionistic A most natural assumption is that a person does not get something for nothing. Apart from the express declarations of salvation by grace through faith God has given in the scriptures, it would be natural to think that one must earn salvation, or at least work to keep it. Thus, in abusive religions all blessings come through performance of spiritual requirements. Failure is strongly condemned so there is only one alternative, perfection. So long as he thinks he is succeeding in his observation of the rules, the follower typically exhibits pride, elitism, and arrogance. However, when reality and failure eventually set in, the result is the person experiences spiritual burnout, or even shipwreck of his faith. Those who fail in their efforts are labeled as apostates, weak, or some other such term so that they can be discarded by the system. #5) Unbalanced Abusive religions must distinguish themselves from all other religions so they can claim to be distinctive and therefore special to God. This is usually done by majoring on minor issues such as prophecy, carrying biblical law to extremes, or using strange methods of biblical interpretation. The imbalanced spiritual hobby-horse thus produced represents unique knowledge or practices which seem to validate the group's claim to special status with God. Adventism: Widespread trans-denominational movement inspired by William Miller's prediction that Jesus' "advent" (return) would take place in 1844. Even after the Great Disappointment (the date's failure), many people in the movement continued to believe. Some suggested revised chronologies and new dates, eventually forming groups such as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Others, notably Hiram Edson and Ellen G. White, suggested that the 1844 date was accurate but that a heavenly (thus invisible) event had taken place. Their teachings became the basis of Seventh-day Adventism, which eventually spawned its own offshoots, including Armstrongism and the Branch Davidians. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#W Charles Taze Russell, Brooklyn, NY: Satan is the originator of the idea of the Trinity. The Father is the supreme God whose real name is Jehovah. Jesus is a created being known originally as Michael the Archangel; he is “a god,” not Jehovah. Jesus only rose spiritually, not bodily, from the dead. The Holy Spirit is the impersonal active force of God. Only the anointed class (or little flock) numbering 144,000 will go to heaven, while faithful “other sheep” will live eternally on a paradise earth; the lost will cease to exist (annihilationism). Oneness Pentacostalism http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm Ewart rebaptized supporter Glenn A. Cook according to the Jesus only formula; Cook then rebaptized Ewart.5 This was the beginning of the rebaptism of thousands of Pentecostals. The Oneness movement quickly spread through Pentecostal churches, particularly the Assemblies of God. The AG debated the issue of baptism in Jesus' name at their 1915 general assembly, and in 1916 defeated the movement in their denomination by requiring adherence to Trinitarian theology in the Statement of Fundamental Truths.6 156 ministers subsequently left the AG to form an independent Oneness denomination. In January, 1918, the General Assembly of the Apostolic Assemblies merged with the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, a denomination affiliated with the original Pentecostal revival on Azusa Street in Los Angeles.7 One of the two most distinguishing beliefs and practices within Oneness Pentecostalism (along with Jesus Only baptism — see below) is modalism. Oneness Pentecostals deny the Trinity, believing instead that the monotheistic God simply "manifests" Himself in the offices or roles of the members of the Trinity. One of the two most distinguishing beliefs and practices within Oneness Pentecostalism (along with Jesus Only baptism — see below) is modalism. Oneness Pentecostals deny the Trinity, believing instead that the monotheistic God simply "manifests" Himself in the offices or roles of the members of the Trinity. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 121 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
quote ct article: "Beginning on the mean streets of Manhattan and migrating to the serenity of the Texas prairie" I can understand a communal thing in the 60's in up NY state near Ithica and Bethel out in the country on the land, there was a lot of that everywhere all over the US at that time. But Manhattan? Were they all living in a commune in the same house/building? quote ct article: "Homestead Heritage began as an inner-city mission in New York City. In the 1970s and 1980s, it evolved into an experiment in community living, moving to a Colorado farm and then to Texas." Does anyone know of the religious backgrounds of the early founding fathers of HH? Also, what were earlier influences upon the early HH? What/who was it in New York (?) that finally coalesced into HH? You know, the earlier history as it were. Developmentally, what of the time in Colorado? Location, living conditions, religious development, and the mixing of the two into one; reasons for compelling a move to texas. How many moved from NY to Colorado; and from colorado to texas? several places I've been if there was an in town commune it frequesntly had a corresponding place out in the country. This had the added benefit of member rotation. Were the very early members formerly members of various/other communal groups? And, if so, what were those groups? | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 122 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
What influences were there in the 60's and 70's on those destined to become the founding fathers of HH? Does anyone know if there was any direct or indirect influence on early HH (60's & 70's) by Gaskin's Farm or at any time by any of its "extended family"? those hutterites/bruderhofs(?) that escaped WWII by going to paraguay and then in '62 came to NY could have known people that would know, did know or, were those that came to be the founding fathers of HH. For that matter, it is even conceivable some of those that escaped the nazis could even still be alive today. | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Curios 1, I will give a history of HH when I get some time. It will take me a while being as I want to make sure I have all my facts straight. There is a lot of unknown about Adams beginnings in the UPC, I do know that what we were told in HH is not the whole truth. I will speak with others that know more than I, and see if they will write or at least confirm what I have heard. For now I will say, the early HH or "The Voice in the Wilderness" as it was called in the 70's, was a UPC plant. Blair Adams was only a couple of years old in the Lord when he was sent out. And within a few weeks or months of being on his own, broke affiliation with his mother church. So don't expect some great, broad, deeply rooted Christian heritage that led Adams to found HH. Their "roots" are something they accumulated over the thirty or so years of their existence. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 127 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
Thanks, Truth Hunter, I don't know about any deeply rooted heritage, i'll leave that puppy to you. i suspect UPC is united pentecostal. blair adams, when he was sent out. those that sent him out interest me more. imo there are too many ingrained anabaptist similarities for there not to be an early relationship and in this short period of time (say, mid-80's forward) the thinking had to already have been there, it just seems a real stretch to accomplish that much in (essentially) a generation, the infighting generally prevents the form, function and, especially, the healthy bank account. | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.34.137.115 |
General, Thanks for the straightforward answer to my question. I appreciate that very much. I hope my tone wasn’t too harsh in earlier posts; I was just getting tired of no solid answers. | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Curious1, I want to correct one thing you made in your last statement about the healthy bank account. Though the founder and a few others live quite comfortably, HH as a Church I believe, is in deep debt. The wealth of HH is a misconception. (Message edited by truth hunter on May 24, 2005) | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 128 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
iow, exce$$e$ are kept outside the corporate entity in the hands of the few. This way, if and when when things go bankrupt, all that is left after liquidating the assets and paying off the debtors, is splitting whatever is monetarily left between the few. Otherwise, if the the exce$$e$ stay in the hands of the corporate entity those exce$$e$ are used to pay off the bills and what is left are real and other assets and no money; iwc, you have to tighten the belts and carry on--you can't just pick up and leave. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
btw is that factoring in these figures? http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=155447#POST155447 | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Maybe you're right. | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Just Family, I wanted to add something to what I said about HH spying on people. I know of one instance where they did spy with binoculars for a few days on a disassociated member who was living out of state to see if he was "Doing good". So maybe they do spy more than I think they do. If they spy on those not currently in the group why not their own.  (Message edited by truth hunter on May 26, 2005) | ||
| hater101 (hater101) Junior Member Username: hater101 Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.112.0.204 |
PROVE IT | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.2.220.247 |
That type of spying is typical of these cults | ||
| no_doubt (no_doubt) New member Username: no_doubt Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Eight Marks of a Mind-Control Cult by Randall Watters Brainwashing has become almost a household word in the last two decades or so. In 1961, Robert J. Lifton wrote the definitive book on the subject, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, after studying the effects of mind control on American prisoners of war under the Communist Chinese. Lifton outlines eight major factors that can be used to identify whether a group is a destructive cult or not. Any authoritarian religion should be held up to the light in order to determine just how destructive their influence is on their members. Judge for yourselves. 1. Milieu Control "Milieu" is a French word meaning "surroundings; environment." Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation. Recruits can be physically separated from society, or they can be warned under threat of punishment to stay away from the world's educational media, especially when it might provoke critical thinking. Any books, movies or testimonies of ex-members of the group, or even anyone critical of the group in any way are to be avoided. Information is carefully kept on each recruit by the mother organization. All are watched, lest they fall behind or get too far ahead of the thinking of the organization. Because it appears that the organization knows so much about everything and everyone, they appear omniscient in the eyes of the recruits. 2. Mystical Manipulation In religious cults, God is ever-present in the workings of the organization. If a person leaves for any reason, accidents or ill-will that may befall them are always attributed to God's punishment on them. For the faithful, the angels are always said to be working, and stories circulate about how God is truly doing marvelous things among them, because they are "the truth." The organization is therefore given a certain "mystique" that is quite alluring to the new recruit. 3. Demand for Purity The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience. One's conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group, as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as either good or evil, depending on their relationship to the cult. Universal tendencies of guilt and shame are used to control individuals, even after they leave. There is great difficulty in understanding the complexities of human morality, since everything is polarized and oversimplified. All things classified as evil are to be avoided, and purity is attainable through immersion into the cult's ideology. 4. The Cult of Confession Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. The members are to be reported if found walking contrary to the rules. There is often a tendency to derive pleasure from self-degradation through confession. This occurs when all must confess their sins before each other regularly, creating an intense kind of "oneness" within the group. It also allows leaders from within to exercise authority over the weaker ones, using their "sins" as a whip to lead them on. 5. The "Sacred Science" The cult's ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too "sacred" to call into question, and a reverence is demanded for the leadership. The cult's ideology makes an exaggerated claim for possessing airtight logic, making it appear as absolute truth with no contradictions. Such an attractive system offers security. 6. Loading the Language Lifton explains the prolific use of "thought-terminating cliches," expressions or words that are designed to end the conversation or controversy. We are all familiar with the use of the cliches "capitalist" and "imperialist," as used by antiwar demonstrators in the 60's. Such cliches are easily memorized and readily expressed. They are called the "language of non-thought," since the discussion is terminated, not allowing further consideration. In the Watchtower, for instance, expressions such as "the truth", the "mother organization", the "new system", "apostates" and "worldly" carry with them a judgment on outsiders, leaving them unworthy of further consideration. 7. Doctrine Over Person Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experiences seem. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrinal logic. The person is only valuable insomuch as they conform to the role models of the cult. Commonsense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the cult's ideology. 8. Dispensing of Existence The cult decides who has the "right" to exist and who does not. They decide who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. The leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders can be deceived, for they are not fit to exist! Biderman's Chart of Coercion "Most people who brainwash...use methods similar to those of prison guards who recognize that physical control is never easily accomplished without the cooperation of the prisoner. The most effective way to gain that cooperation is through subversive manipulation of the mind and feelings of the victim, who then becomes a psychological, as well as a physical, prisoner." from an Amnesty International publication, "Report on Torture", which depicts the brainwashing of prisoners of war. Isolation  Deprives individual of social support, effectively rendering him unable to resist  Makes individual dependent upon interrogator  Develops an intense concern with self. Once a person is away from longstanding emotional support and thus reality checks, it is fairly easy to set a stage for brainwashing. Spiritually abusive groups work to isolate individuals from friends and family, whether directly, by requiring the individuals to forsake friends and family for the sake of the "Kingdom" (group membership), or indirectly, by preaching the necessity to demonstrate one's love for God by "hating" one's father, mother, family, friends. Abusive groups are not outward-looking, but inward-looking, insisting that members find all comfort and support and a replacement family within the group. Cut off from friends, relatives, previous relationships, abusive groups surround the recruits and hammer rigid ideologies into their consciousnesses, saturating their senses with specific doctrines and requirements of the group. Isolated from everyone but those within the group, recruits become dependent upon group members and leaders and find it difficult if not impossible to offer resistance to group teachings. They become self-interested and hyper-vigilant, very fearful should they incur the disapproval of the group, which now offers the only support available to them which has group approval. Warning signs The seed of extremism exists wherever a group demands all the free time of a member, insisting he be in church every time the doors are open and calling him to account if he isn't, is critical or disapproving of involvements with friends and family outside the group, encourages secrecy by asking that members not share what they have seen or heard in meetings or about church affairs with outsiders, is openly, publicly, and repeatedly critical of other churches or groups (especially if the group claims to be the only one which speaks for God), is critical when members attend conferences, workshops or services at other churches, checks up on members in any way, i.e., to determine that the reason they gave for missing a meeting was valid, or makes attendance at all church functions mandatory for participating in church ministry or enjoying other benefits of church fellowship. Once a member stops interacting openly with others, the group's influence is all that matters. He is bombarded with group values and information and there is no one outside the group with whom to share thoughts or who will offer reinforcement or affirmation if the member disagrees with or doubts the values of the group. The process of isolation and the self-doubt it creates allow the group and its leaders to gain power over the members. Leaders may criticize major and minor flaws of members, sometimes publically, or remind them of present or past sins. They may call members names, insult them or ignore them, or practice a combination of ignoring members at some times and receiving them warmly at others, thus maintaining a position of power (i.e., the leaders call the shots.) The sense of humiliation makes members feel they deserve the poor treatment they are receiving and may cause them to allow themselves to be subjected to any and all indignities out of gratefulness that one as unworthy as they feel is allowed to participate in the group at all. When leaders treat the member well occasionally, they accept any and all crumbs gratefully. Eventually, awareness of how dependent they are on the group and gratitude for the smallest attention contributes to an increasing sense of shame and degradation on the part of the members, who begin to abuse themselves with "litanies of self-blame," i.e., "No matter what they do to me, I deserve it, as sinful and wretched as I am. I deserve no better. I have no rights but to go to hell. I should be grateful for everything I receive, even punishment." Monopolization of Perception  Fixes attention upon immediate predicament; fosters introspection  Eliminates stimuli competing with those controlled by captor  Frustrates all actions not consistent with compliance Abusive groups insist on compliance with trival demands related to all facets of life: food, clothing, money, household arrangements, children, conversation. They monitor members' appearances, criticize language and childcare practices. They insist on precise schedules and routines, which may change and be contradictory from day to day or moment to moment, depending on the whims of group leaders. At first, new members may think these expectations are unreasonable and may dispute them, but later, either because they want to be at peace or because they are afraid, or because everyone else is complying, they attempt to comply. After all, what real difference does it make if a member is not allowed to wear a certain color, or to wear his hair in a certain way, to eat certain foods, or say certain words, to go certain places, watch certain things, or associate with certain individuals. In the overall scheme of things, does it really matter? In fact, in the long run, the member begins to reason, it is probably good to learn these disciplines, and after all, as they have frequently been reminded, they are to submit to spiritual authority as unto the Lord.. Soon it becomes apparent that the demands will be unending, and increasing time and energy are focused on avoiding group disapproval by doing something "wrong." There is a feeling of walking on eggs. Everything becomes important in terms of how the group or its leaders will respond, and members' desires, feelings and ideas become insignificant. Eventually, members may no longer even know what they want, feel or think. The group has so monopolized all of the members' perceptions with trivial demands that members lose their perspective as to the enormity of the situation they are in. The leaders may also persuade the members that they have the inside track with God and therefore know how everything should be done. When their behavior results in disastrous consequences, as it often does, the members are blamed. Sometimes the leaders may have moments, especially after abusive episodes, when they appear to humble themselves and confess their faults, and the contrast of these moments of vulnerability with their usual pose of being all-powerful endears them to members and gives hope for some open communication. Threats sometimes accompany all of these methods. Members are told they will be under God's judgment, under a curse, punished, chastised, chastened if they leave the group or disobey group leaders. Sometimes the leaders, themselves, punish the members, and so members can never be sure when leaders will make good on the threats which they say are God's idea. The members begin to focus on what they can do to meet any and all group demands and how to preserve peace in the short run. Abusive groups may remove children from their parents, control all the money in the group, arrange marriages, destroy personal items of members or hide personal items. Warning signs: Preoccupation with trivial demands of daily life, demanding strict compliance with standards of appearance, dress codes, what foods are or are not to be eaten and when, schedules, threats of God's wrath if group rules are not obeyed, a feeling of being monitored, watched constantly by those in the group or by leaders. In other words, what the church wants, believes and thinks its members should do becomes everything, and you feel preoccupied with making sure you are meeting the standards. It no longer matters whether you agree that the standards are correct, only that you follow them and thus keep the peace and in the good graces of leaders. Induced Debility and Exhaustion People subjected to this type of spiritual abuse become worn out by tension, fear and continual rushing about in an effort to meet group standards. They must often avoid displays of fear, sorrow or rage, since these may result in ridicule or punishment. Rigid ministry demands and requirements that members attend unreasonable numbers of meetings and events makes the exhaustion and ability to resist group pressure even worse. Warning Signs: Feelings of being overwhelmed by demands, close to tears, guilty if one says no to a request or goes against a church standards. Being intimidated or pressured into volunteering for church duties and subjected to scorn or ridicule when one does not "volunteer." Being rebuked or reproved when family or work responsibilities intrude on church responsibilities. Occasional Indulgences  Provides motivation for compliance Leaders of abusive groups often sense when members are making plans to leave and may suddenly offer some kind of indulgence, perhaps just love or affection, attention where there was none before, a note or a gesture of concern. Hope that the situation in the church will change or self doubt ("Maybe I'm just imagining it's this bad,") then replace fear or despair and the members decide to stay a while longer. Other groups practice sporadic demonstrations of compassion or affection right in the middle of desperate conflict or abusive episodes. This keeps members off guard and doubting their own perceptions of what is happening. Some of the brainwashing techniques described are extreme, some groups may use them in a disciplined, regular manner while others use them more sporadically. But even mild, occasional use of these techniques is effective in gaining power. Warning Signs: Be concerned if you have had an ongoing desire to leave a church or group you believe may be abusive, but find yourself repeatedly drawn back in just at the moment you are ready to leave, by a call, a comment or moment of compassion. These moments, infrequent as they may be, are enough to keep hope in change alive and thus you sacrifice years and years to an abusive group. Devaluing the Individual  Creates fear of freedom and dependence upon captors  Creates feelings of helplessness  Develops lack of faith in individual capabilities Abusive leaders are frequently uncannily able to pick out traits church members are proud of and to use those very traits against the members. Those with natural gifts in the areas of music may be told they are proud or puffed up or "anxious to be up front" if they want to use their talents and denied that opportunity. Those with discernment are called judgmental or critical, the merciful are lacking in holiness or good judgment, the peacemakers are reminded the Lord came to bring a sword, not peace. Sometimes efforts are made to convince members that they really are not gifted teachers or musically talented or prophetically inclined as they believed they were. When members begin to doubt the one or two special gifts they possess which they have always been sure were God-given, they begin to doubt everything else they have ever believed about themselves, to feel dependent upon church leaders and afraid to leave the group. ("If I've been wrong about even *that*, how can I ever trust myself to make right decisions ever again?"). Warning Signs: Unwillingness to allow members to use their gifts. Establishing rigid boot camp-like requirements for the sake of proving commitment to the group before gifts may be exercised. Repeatedly criticizing natural giftedness by reminding members they must die to their natural gifts, that Paul, after all, said, "When I'm weak, I'm strong," and that they should expect God to use them in areas other than their areas of giftedness. Emphasizing helps or service to the group as a prerequisite to church ministry. This might take the form of requiring that anyone wanting to serve in any way first have the responsibility of cleaning toilets or cleaning the church for a specified time, that anyone wanting to sing in the worship band must first sing to the children in Sunday School, or that before exercising any gifts at all, members must demonstrate loyalty to the group by faithful attendance at all functions and such things as tithing. No consideration is given to the length of time a new member has been a Christian or to his age or station in life or his unique talents or abilities. The rules apply to everyone alike. This has the effect of reducing everyone to some kind of lowest common denominator where no one's gifts or natural abilities are valued or appreciated, where the individual is not cherished for the unique blessing he or she is to the body of Christ, where what is most highly valued is service, obedience, submission to authority, and performance without regard to gifts or abilities or, for that matter, individual limitations. | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) New member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.79.206.186 |
bump | ||
| old_watchman (old_watchman) Junior Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 |
Watchman Fellowship used our criteria (which represent the positions of Evangelical Christianity) for evaluating a Bible based group to examine the teachings and practices of Homestead Heritage. The results of that examination brought forth our conclusion that Homestead Heritage is not representative of a Christian fellowship. Let me base that, point by point, on their doctrinal statements. First we asked, “Do they add to the Word of God” Our answer was, “Yes.” We believe the most concise statement is found at the end of the document titled Constitution on Koinonia Membership. Allow me to quote from the last page, “You acknowledge by signing this Constitution that you hold to the Holy Bible as interpreted by the Spirit moving through the appropriate channels of leadership as your ‘curriculum,’ your course of faith, supplemented and more precisely defined and expounded by the interpretation given by the Spirit and recorded in Salvation Is of the Jews; Hallelu Yah; The Garden of God; Covenant Love; The Temple; The Bedrock; The laws of Consistency; The Foundations of the Temple Series, Volumes 1, 2 and 3; The Order of Perfection; The Service of the Temple; The Narrow Gate; Koinonia Covenant Confession; Who Owns the Children?; Wisdom’s Children; Building Christian Character; Beyond Violence; Beyond Pacifism; Culture as Spiritual War Series; Knowledge as Spiritual War Series; Justice Is Fallen; the Koinonia Curriculum and others that might be added in the future through the appropriate channels of leadership per the above, including various specific position and conviction papers, such as those on home birth and home education.” It is not the Bible that is their authority, it is what they say the Bible says as “more precisely defined and expounded by” their interpretation as set forth in their literature. The second question I asked was, “Do they deny the Trinity?” Our answer, “Yes.” “…we recognize that the views that culminated in the Trinitarian doctrine began circulating in the church during the second and possibly even the first centuries. The source of this view, however, was never scriptural; it always stemmed from confusion that entered the church from pagan philosophy or religion.” (p. 50). In their book, The Bedrock, Blair Adams and Joel Stein make this statement, I think that makes the point. Next, , “Do they hold to a Biblical view of Jesus Christ?” The answer is, “No.” Let’s read some statements from Who Do Men Say That I Am. On pages 179 & 180 they say, “So the Son of God was not a person coeternal with another person, the Father, but we see from the above scriptures (Rom. 5:14) that when Jesus speaks to the Father of ‘the glory I had with you before the world began’ (John 17:5), It means that the Messiah, the Christ, who is God’s wisdom, had been preconceived in the mind of God, the God who ‘calls things that are not as though they were’(Rom. 4:17).” Now, this may be a view held by many in the Oneness churches but it is not the view held by conservative, Evangelicals of whom our theological positions would be representative. Now let me give you an Evangelical view of the pre-existence of the Son of God. Let’s look at one of the most famous and well-known passages in scripture, John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word (we want to look at the Greek verb used here for was, hn. It is in the indicative imperfect tense, which in English would mean it is past tense, linear or continuous action, or in this case, state of being. So, we have “In the beginning the Word eternally existed”. Now, the second clause reads, “and the Word was with God”. We want to concentrate on the words was with, hn pros. The preposition pros when used to show relationship, means face to face. So, we have John saying, “and the Word was eternally existent, in a face to face relationship with the Father at the time of the creation.” And the last clause is a predicate nominative, “and the Word was God” or “God was the Word”. So, what we have is, “In the beginning, when God the Father began to create, the Word was eternally present with the Father in a face-to-face reciprocative relationship, and the eternally existent Word was in His very essence, God” Modalism, Dynamic Monarchianism, and Arianism are undone by the precision of John’s impeccable prolog. Now, what does HH say about the incarnate Word of God that they call Jesus Christ. Now, Jesus is the name of the Father according to HH, “…we are then the children of our Father, whose Name is Jesus” (Who Do Men Say That I Am), pager 187. When HH speaks of The Son, they are speaking only of the human man, “The Son does not exercise ‘coequal’ authority in respect to the Father…” (Ibid. 173). On the same page it says, “Coeternal Person or Begotten Son? Does the Bible say that the Father and the Son are coeternal, that the Son preexisted with the Father? Or does it say the Son had a definite beginning in time?” In The bedrock, we read, “Hence, the Son (we speak here of Christ’s humanity) who has ‘been given’ power is not equal to the Father who has given Him that power, since the Son’s power is derivative and not original.” (p. 88). The writer has voiced two Christological heresies in these two statements. The first heresy is called subordinationism. The second heresy is the denial of the generation of the Son. Remember, John said, “Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.” (I John 2:23). There cannot be an eternal Father without an eternal Son. Now, let us look at one more Christological heresy. Homestead Heritage declares that Jesus is no more than a glorified man in Heaven; “So Stephen did not see the second person of the Trinity standing at the right hand of the first person. Stephen simply saw Jesus the One who humbled and abased Himself totally, exalted to the highest place…” (Ibid. , 188); and then “So the One who ‘must reign’ over our lives until all enemies are put under His ‘feet’ is Jesus’ sacrificial humanity.” (Ibid., 190); again, “His humanity must reign until ‘all dominion, authority and power; have been destroyed (I Cor. 15:24)” (Ibid., 191). Evangelical Christianity calls this heresy. Does Oneness accept and teach this as truth? I asked a pastor of New Life UPC in Austin if this represented the beliefs of their church. He responded, “We do not believe that "when Jesus was resurrected the Father left the human body." Here is what we believe: “Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16). All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him (Colossians 2:9). This statement of Scripture was written after the ascension; it describes Jesus in His present existence. The Incarnation is permanent. Today, Jesus is God manifested in glorified human flesh. He is not merely an anointed man, but He is both God and man at the same time. In eternity, we will see the one God on the divine throne in heaven. We will know Him as both "God and the Lamb," as one being with one face and one supreme name, sitting on one throne (Revelation 22:3-4). Bro. Bernard” Even Oneness would hold Homestead Heritage’s view of the resurrected Christ to be heresy. Point four asks, “Do they add to the gospel with works? ” Yes” In the Constitution of Koinonia Membership, they make this statement, “It is just like buying land on an installment contract: you can live on the land, husband it, bring forth fruit from it and say it’s yours--as long as you keep making the payment…. If we fail to walk on, we will fall in the wilderness of unbelief and miss our inheritance with Jesus and be literally “repossessed” by the world and its ruler….” (p.11). On the subject of water baptism, “The water of I Peter 3:21-22 ‘saves us’ by bringing us to the place of God’s right hand, the place of the Name.” (Who Do Men Say That I Am) p. 188. The idea of faith and repentance plus something else is carried on in this statement, “…if God has truly taken over the authority and control of our life, then this will be evidenced by the fact that He has taken over the control of our tongue, as we ‘speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance’…When man no longer controls his own tongue with his own words of his own language, but instead God begins to speak through him in a language only the Spirit can give, then man has started a new relationship where God is Lord, is Helmsman.” (Introduction to the Foundation Series) p. 10. In the same work, on page 10, it speaks of a third work in the salvation process, “So we can see that the laying on of hands, which is God’s means for setting His people in order, far from being a peripheral matter, is essential, is in fact foundational, to the salvation of our souls.” Now, many millions of people believe that water baptism is essential for salvation. But, is this what the Bible really teaches? Evangelical Christians believe this is a heresy, since it adds works to the grace of God. Let’s look at the two main scriptures used by baptismal regenerationists. The first is Acts 2:38, “And Peter said to them,’ Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” It seems straightforward in English that baptism is part of the salvistic process. But what does it say in the Greek? The word “for or eis”, “for the remission of sins,” is at the heart of the controversy. In this case it means “ for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins.” In I Cor. 10:2, the people were baptized “eis – for or unto” identification with Moses, his mission. The word “Repent” is second person plural and the verb “shall receive” is second person plural. The modifying clause is “gift of the Holy Spirit.” The verb “be baptized” is third person singular. Remember number and person must agree in grammar. Now, HH mentions I Peter 3:21 as a proof text. First let’s look at Romans 6:3, “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” Baptism is a type or symbol or likeness of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. I Peter 3:21 says. “The like figure whereupon (Gk. antitupos: a figure correspondent to some other) even baptism doth also now save us, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” Here, as in Romans 6:3, baptism is a figure of our death to sin and our resurrection to eternal life. The gift of eternal life is predicated on faith in Jesus Christ alone, (Eph. 2:8-9). Then HH adds laying on of hands and speaking in tongues as necessary for salvation. Cornelius and his family were saved before baptism. (See Acts chapter 10). Orthodox Christianity calls this works salvation and declares it to be heretical and antithetical to the true gospel. Now, for our last point, “Do they divide the body of Christ and separate families?” “Yes” Here is an extensive quote from the HH book, the Garden of God, “A God-centered culture, then, is one that encourages the individual to conform himself to the image of God; this is because the corporate image of the community that rests upon that culture is conformed to the image of God. This image is the image of covenant; for covenant expresses God’s nature---His faithful, eternal love—and thus true godly culture is the culture of covenant. God’s law-Word, which expresses the terms of His Covenant, conforms us to a particular order of relationships, a way of life, a way of seeing, believing and behaving; and from that order, life style and vision—that is, from our conformance to the covenant’s terms—is formed the corporate image that God has ordained for his community. We, in turn, enter into oneness with God by conforming ourselves to the image that He has ordained for us, both as individuals and as a community. Only by conforming our lives in every area to the pattern and way of life ordained by God can we enter into true oneness with our fellowman, with nature and with God Himself, for only this God-ordained culture fully expressed His covenant. And only through His covenant can we know Him. With His Word sown within us, and with us planted in His covenant community and culture, we can become once again the garden of God. We can grow into oneness with the God who is love. And this oneness with Him, as we know, is our salvation.” (p. 124). And, then this quote, “That is, salvation—rests upon information (words, knowledge) that comes from God through the channels of covenant and through which the image of God is formed within man.” p. 125. HH says oneness with God is salvation, and is a learning process brought about by conforming yourself to the patterns taught in a community led by God’s “chosen channels of authority.” That is not the salvation of the Bible and it is not the salvation of orthodox Christianity. As to the tearing apart of families, I will point you to the many posts on this board for confirmation. I hope this answers most of the reasons why Watchman Fellowship and orthodox Christianity considers Homestead Heritage to be a false expression of true Biblical Christianity. They may believe and practice what they will, but they have no right to call it Christian. We know there are Oneness believers posting here. This section of the Factnet board is about the doctrines and practices of Homestead Heritage not Oneness churches. WFI uses four cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith to make an evaluation of any group in question; Do you add to the Word of God with written of spoken word that is held to be equal to or superior to the Bible (Mormonism); Do they subtract from the deity of Christ (Jehovah’s Witnesses); Do they multiply the requirements for salvation both of these groups); Do they divide the Body of Christ (claim to be the only place God is working)? Many groups who are considered to be mainline Christian and even conservative churches may have a doctrine that violates one of the above, and would be guilty of teaching a heresy. But, when a group hits on all four points it must be said to be non-Christian. We believe HH is such a group. | ||
| dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 330 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/8794.html?1131631968 | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
Old Watchman, I do not have access to any of these writings you use as reference. My response is still the same as always. You folks are declaring yourself ‘the standard’ in which all others must measure up to you and your particular beliefs or they may be considered ‘non-Christians’. How ludicrous. How disgraceful. How heartbreaking. It is beyond my understanding how any Christian group can stand in judgment of other Christians when it is your called duty to promote the teachings of Christ, not tear apart his Body. You should be ashamed. My meager response to your post…………………………….. 1. First we asked, “Do they add to the Word of God” You say…….It is not the Bible that is their authority, it is what they say the Bible says as “more precisely defined and expounded by” their interpretation as set forth in their literature. HOWEVER…..Every church interprets the Bible differently….that is why we have thousands of different churches and denominations. 2. The second question I asked was, “Do they deny the Trinity?” You say….Our answer, “Yes.” HOWEVER…..Since the Trinity is not specifically written in the Bible and is only interpreted and accepted by certain groups it must be considered opinion and not fact. 3. Next, “Do they hold to a Biblical view of Jesus Christ?” You say…..The answer is, “No.” HOWEVER…….Your answer is based purely on your belief based on your interpretation of scripture. No fact….just your opinion. 4. Point four asks, “Do they add to the gospel with works? You say…..” Yes” HOWEVER……There are numerous scriptures, I’ll post them if you wish, that support the view of ‘’faith without works is dead’’. I can post as many scriptures to challenge your view as you can to support it. Once again, your answers are based solely on your belief, your interpretation, and your view. God is the judge of mankind, not you. You are the ultimate charlatan. I desire to see a document where God has appointed you and your group ‘THE’ authority on these issues. If we are to give your organization proper recognition then we need to see your God given credentials. You Sir will one day stand before the Great Throne and you will answer for all the words you have written and spoken against other Christians. I feel your actions are wicked and injurious to the Body of Christ. Of course this statement is based on my belief, my interpretation, and my view of you. I guess we all have opinions………….. May God have mercy on your Soul. | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
I have rolled up my sleeves, put on the Armor of God, and wish to confront those that attack the Body of Christ. It is one thing to reason with God’s children who are being manipulated but yet quite a different approach when dealing with an agent of the enemy. “For he that is not against us is for us.” Mark 9:40 'Us' is all who walk with Christ. If you come against 'Us' you come against Christ! You then become 'The Enemy'....Think about it.... | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor? Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that." But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:11-17 | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.93.158 |
I know this is a long time to wait before taking issue with something, but what on earth makes Truth Hunter think most churches have "closed meetings, usually on Wednesday nights"? I have never, never, never in my life heard of any church other than HH that has closed meetings except maybe board and/or business meetings. I've been a Baptist, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, a Lutheran and attended an Assemblies of God church; my husband was a Catholic; my sister was a Pentecostal; my mother was a member of a Move congregation; we've all belonged to a large variety of nondenominal churches and NONE of us has EVER heard of ANY closed meetings except those I mentioned. They were never worship meetings. All worship meetings were always public. | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 72 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Infreedom, You need to go and re-read Truth Hunters post. He is not saying all churches have closed meetings usually on Wednesdays....... He was answering a specific post from 'Just Family'.... 1. Q. (from 'Just Family') I want you to explain to me why the "private worship services". That's so unbiblical! HH's A.(The answer you would get from Homestead Heritage leadership) All Church's have closed meetings, usually on Wednesday. We just have ours on Sundays. Anyone who wants to come to an open meeting can come to a Friday night cell group meeting. It's like a date you get to know us a little bit more each time and if you like what you see then you marry us and come to Sunday meetings. What did you expect, to jump right into bed with us (always said with a little laugh and smile)? It's also like a university's graded course, you can't just drop into the middle of a course, you must take the course from the beginning. Truth hunters A.(Truth Hunters answer from his experience in HH.) First since they view themselves more as a family than a Church, They say that Sunday meetings are like a family sit-down to go over how the children have been disobedient. Discipline will be administered, any "attacks" against them will be told along with counter measures. Any "NEW" revelations will be revealed and the problems and "False" doctrine of other Church's such as Grace, will be discussed and explained away in great length. Often meetings will last four to six hours. Also it is the only time the founder is on true display and so would be up for close criticism by outsiders. As for biblical reasons I know of none. (No biblical reason to have closed meetings. He is agreeing with you) In Freedom you have been around the church block. What have you come to through all those experiences in different churches? God Bless you and through all your experiences may you remain....... Under Grace | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Thank you UG for clarifying that, I'm way behind. Its been about six weeks since I've even read Factnet. In Freedom, that post was a rundown on the HH book "Questions Visitors Ask" that we were taught to answer from, and then I gave the answers that I felt are the truth. (Message edited by truth hunter on November 14, 2005) | ||
| praxaluh (praxaluh) Junior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Under_Grace and all, Within the context of Homestead Heritage environment, with cell groups as outreach, the crafts businesses and husbandry and such, the idea of having a closed meeting for members is clearly understandable. Even with the reasons above. The dating analogy sounds of more recent vintage, and is a bit awkward. And any statement that "all Church's have closed meetings, usually on Wednesday" would be simply wrong. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
Truth Hunter, You are welcome. Praxaluh, Greetings. I agree that any church needs to have closed meetings for members only and that HH having some closed meetings is appropiate as it would be for any church. I met a couple that attended Friday meetings for seven years. They left before ever being allowed to be in a Sunday meeting. That type of exclusion I agree with the origanal poster is unscriptual. P. you said...."The dating analogy sounds of more recent vintage, and is a bit awkward. And any statement that "all Church's have closed meetings, usually on Wednesday" would be simply wrong." UG...I have said before that I admire your ability with words however from the above statement I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying HH did not tell people that? Are you agreeing that 'normal'(Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God etc.) do not have closed meetings on Wednesday nights? Thanks Under Grace | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
U.G. ……”I met a couple that attended Friday meetings for seven years. They left before ever being allowed to be in a Sunday meeting.”……. Reply…They were silly to stick around that long; too many other churches available. Infreedom………..”I have never, never, never in my life heard of any church other than HH that has closed meetings except maybe board and/or business meetings.”………….. Reply……From reading all the information it appears this community is a popular tourist stop. If the church services were open to the public it would be a circus since many attendees would be there out of pure curiosity. I would not care to have a cluster of sightseers gawking at me in my church while I worship. The Amish, who worship at home meetings, and a few of the Mennonites have restricted attendance worship for the same reason. (Message edited by pure-heart on November 14, 2005) | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Pureheart, First, I agree that it is appropiate to have some closed meetings. With groups you mentioned it would be prudent as the 'curious' would surely come. Second, you just don't get it. Those dear people stuck around because one they had kin folk in HH on a Sunday basis and they were told that if they would 'stick' it out they could join and go to Sunday meeting. Here is the hard part, they became convinced that their salvation depended on them staying and joining HH. If you come to a place you think joining,, keeping the law and coming under the authority in HH is your salvation it is hard to walk away. Surely you can see it is not the same as going from First Baptist to First Methodist? That couple is doing fine and now abiding....... Under Grace | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 112 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
……”Second, you just don't get it.”……. It concerns me that the implication in many of these posts implies that the general Christian population interested in this church is a bunch of zombies unable to think or decide for themselves. | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 162.40.174.251 |
Under Grace, you asked what I'd learned from my trip around the church block. That’s a really good question and one I’m trying to sort out. At this point there are a couple of things I’m fairly clear one. The first is that there have been tares amongst the wheat from the very beginning, and conversely, there has been wheat amongst the tares. In other words, there are genuine Christians in unlikely places. I believe (only God really knows) that I found them in pretty well every church I’ve ever gone to. The second thing is that theology matters. I used to think that as long as I loved the Lord and had faith expressed as obedience to Him, theology –whether mine or someone else’s -- really didn’t make that much difference. I figured as long as the pastor was good and the congregation seemed to be moving forward, that was all that mattered. Those things do matter, but they are not all that matter. The history of the movement the congregation is part of matters because the past germinates a seed that is one day going to bear fruit. If the seed was bad, the fruit will be bad. The group’s theology matters because it informs their decisions in ways that are otherwise inexplicable. Theology motivates people to do things they otherwise would not have done, and bad theology motivates people to do bad things. Regardless of whether the person involved understands and holds the theology as a deep personal conviction or if he or she is acting in response to pressure by others who are convinced, the effect is more or less the same. As my friend and former pastor, the late Dr. Charles Farah used to say: “Bad theology is a cruel taskmaster.” I’m not sure if that’s original with Chuck or not, but it’s certainly demonstrable. People suffer when they believe lies, especially lies about God. When I was going to Chuck’s church, there was a young family in the congregation who had come out of the Shepherding Movement. I didn’t know them well, but I had one deep conversation with the young mother. They had lost a child and gone to trial because they had withheld medical care from their sick child in obedience to their shepherd. There were still conditions on their custody of their other children as a result of the sentence they received. But the inner suffering was much, much worse. People at HH and New Life suffer all sorts of things because they believe that they must obey their leaders. Even the leaders suffer – at least at New Life; I won’t venture to speak for HH – because they are over burdened with decisions and issues the people ought to be taking to the Lord instead of to men. I have erred by taking the things of God too casually, but being glad to be relieved of the necessity to search things out for myself by letting someone else tell me what God is saying and doing. However, there was a limit to how far I would go in that. In the last difficult days that we were with NL, I knew that the leader wanted something from me, but I didn’t know what. Finally I realized that what he wanted was the commitment to him of that inner citadel of that heart that belongs only to God. When I realized that, I was ready to leave. So what I have learned from my trip “around the church block”? I’ve learned that above everything else there is the love of God. He loves us. I think that’s the starting pointing and the ending point and the whole middle. I once heard Richard Wurmbrand (Romanian pastor imprisoned for his faith for 14 yrs) say, “All the steps to love are love.” He was speaking in part against the Communist concept that “to make an omelet, one must break eggs.” His point was that God is a God of love and hating people or driving people or pushing them or otherwise abusing them in any way will never lead them to Him because those actions violate His nature. The journey and the goal are one; didn’t the Lord call Himself the Way? | ||
| praxaluh (praxaluh) Junior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Praxaluh "all Church's have closed meetings, usually on Wednesday" would be simply wrong." Under_Grace "Are you saying HH did not tell people that?" If they say exactly that, it is wrong. I dunno the accuracy of the report, lots of nuances in second-hand reporting, as to who said, how often, exactly what. "Are you agreeing that 'normal'(Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God etc.) do not have closed meetings on Wednesday nights?" Most assemblies and churches and congregations and fellowships do not have closed mid-week meetings. In my experience closed meetings are a rarity, outside of situations like community-oriented fellowships. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Pureheart, ”Second, you just don't get it.”……......."It concerns me that the implication in many of these posts implies that the general Christian population interested in this church is a bunch of zombies unable to think or decide for themselves." UG....It is not that they are Zombies. The point is that in order to join HH you have to believe what they believe or other wise you would not do it. If you buy into the false doctrine you become deceived. By definition if a person is deceived they do not know they are deceived. If you are on a train going from New York to Los Angeles and you think you are on a train headed from New York to San Francisco, where are you going to end up? San Francisco! No matter how much you believe you are going to L. A. Pureheart can you see that ? People are easily deceived I was deceived while in HH and it took a combination of many things to help me see that what HH teaches is not the gospel. You preach constantly to go out and win souls for Christ. That is great. I have no idea from your writings what Gospel you would share with someone. Would it be what the Jehovah Witness teach? You have shared we should admire them for going door to door. How about what the Mormons teach they go door to door and are the fastest growing group in America. How about what HH teaches. You seen enough discussion you could share their version of the gospel which is totally based on the law and a hierarchy of levels within the group. What gospel do you believe? You can’t say they are all right. Even Dowen and ART recognizes that some teachings are wrong just not HH. Please tell us. You defend HH on every point. Then turn around and say we should also admire Jehovah Witness. For what, spreading a false gospel? Does it bother you that though they appreciate your defense of HH based on what you have posted you would not make it according to the doctrine of HH. Another words they think you are headed for Hell just like the rest of us in spite of your defense of their version of the gospel. By the way the Jehovah Witness in spite of your defense of them would say you are going to Hell as well. So which gospel do you preach Pureheart? It is a fair question. The jailer ask Paul “what must I do to be saved?” Tell us what must one do or believe to be saved? Hoping you will always choose to place yourself............. Under Grace | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
To Under Grace…….. The Good News The Bible says that ‘all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God’ (Romans 3:23) and that all are therefore subject to ‘everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power’ (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Now the Great News. ‘For God so loved the world, that He gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life’ (John 3:16). Some folks believe in pure free grace. No strings attached. Once saved, always saved. Just believe once and you’re guaranteed a trip to glory. Others believe you must accept Christ, do a number of things, and then live a strict Holy life. Most fall somewhere in between. My personal belief or your personal belief is not at issue here. What I feel is at issue here is respect for other Christians. Respect for what God has placed on your heart as your way to walk with Him. I respect your belief. I respect every ones belief. I may not agree with you. I may not agree with HH or I may not agree with the Jehovah Witnesses or I may not agree with the Catholics or I may not agree with the Baptists or I may not agree with….. blaa blaa blaa …but I respect them all. I hold fast that God will judge all. That’s his job. My job is to spread the Good News to all who have not heard. My job is to give everyone a chance to make the decision to accept Christ. Once they make the decision, I encourage them to find a church. ANY church. Just continue your walk with Jesus. For those of you that have made that decision I rejoice with you. However, I still may worry about your salvation. I may pray that God make clear to you what He wants you to know. I pray that your walk with Jesus is steps directed by him for you. So when I defend HH or some other group I am defending the Body of Christ. That simple. Does this help you to understand me a little better? I wrote this rather quickly during my morning break. | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 114 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
The Lord laid this on my heart today at lunch. For those that are of the once saved, always saved thought, please consider that Lucifer, a most beautiful Archangel, was once in God’s presence and yet lost his place in Glory. So even if you make it to Glory, here is proof you may not stay there if you turn against God. The following was copied from…. http://www.carm.org/questions/fallen_angels.htm Angels are created beings used by God as messengers, warriors, and servants. The word "angel" comes from the Greek word "angelos" which means messenger. Angels are spiritual beings without bodies of flesh and bones, though they apparently have the ability to appear in human form (Gen. 19:1-22). Angels had many functions. They praised God (Psalm 103:20), served as messengers to the world (Luke 1:11-20, 26-38; Luke 2:9-14), watched over God’s people (Psalm 91:11-12), and were sometimes instruments of God’s judgment (Matt. 13:49-50). Fallen angels are those angels who rebelled against God along with Lucifer an archangel who became the devil. Following are verses often quoted in reference to the evil one. "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13"But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’" (Isaiah 14:12-14). Most scholars agree that one third of the angels fell into sin and became demons. "And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth . . . " (Rev. 12:3-4). In the future, there will be a judgment upon the fallen angels: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2 Pet. 2:4). "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev. 12:9). | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Pureheart, Thanks for your response. I do not want to ridicule or mock your beliefs. Please do not interpret my questions as anything other than to clarify what you are saying. I have said before and I will say it again, I do not judge your motives or your heart for wanting to bring people together in the spirit of unity. I do believe that we should strive to be at peace with all men and that should start with the family of God. You said.....“My personal belief or your personal belief is not at issue here. What I feel is at issue here is respect for other Christians.” UG.....I can agree with this statement. We should have respect for other Christians. PH....The Good News The Bible says that ‘all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God’ (Romans 3:23) and that all are therefore subject to ‘everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power’ (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Now the Great News. ‘For God so loved the world, that He gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life’ (John 3:16). UG......Right on! I can agree with this. PH...My personal belief or your personal belief is not at issue here. What I feel is at issue here is respect for other Christians. Respect for what God has placed on your heart as your way to walk with Him. I respect your belief. I respect every ones belief. I may not agree with you. I may not agree with HH or I may not agree with the Jehovah Witnesses or I may not agree with the Catholics or I may not agree with the Baptists or I may not agree with….. blaa blaa blaa …but I respect them all. I hold fast that God will judge all. That’s his job. My job is to spread the Good News to all who have not heard. My job is to give everyone a chance to make the decision to accept Christ. Once they make the decision, I encourage them to find a church. ANY church. Just continue your walk with Jesus. For those of you that have made that decision I rejoice with you. However, I still may worry about your salvation. I may pray that God make clear to you what He wants you to know. I pray that your walk with Jesus is steps directed by him for you. So when I defend HH or some other group I am defending the Body of Christ. That simple. UG.....Wow...“This is where I need you to clarify.....You said.....I respect every ones belief. I may not agree with you. I may not agree with HH or I may not agree with the Jehovah Witnesses or I may not agree with the Catholics or I may not agree with the Baptists or I may not agree with blaa blaa blaa...” Pureheart I respect the Jehovah Witness as people but I do not believe what they teach is the same Good News as what you just posted Rom3:23 / John 3:16 etc.. Jehovah’s Witness is not teaching the Good News it is a system of law. You mentioned falling from grace as Lucifer, the JW do not believe in hell as you do. HH teaches a convoluted system of laws and caste hierarchy system of works. Are there Christians in both groups. Yes! Again it is in-spite of what they teach and not because of it. PH......“but I respect them all. I hold fast that God will judge all. That’s his job.” UG....I agree with you 100%. Scripture is full of verses that admonish not to judge our brothers.... RO 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. JAS 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor? UG......The list could go on and on. I am not talking about this type of judgment. Consider the following scripture: GAL 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! GAL 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. GAL 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. GAL 2:15 "We who are Jews by birth and not `Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 1 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" GAL 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! UG....Did Paul judge those preaching a false gospel! Yes. There is a place for judgment and discernment. PH....“My job is to spread the Good News to all who have not heard. My job is to give everyone a chance to make the decision to accept Christ. Once they make the decision, I encourage them to find a church. ANY church. Just continue your walk with Jesus.” UG....ANY church? JW-Mormons-HH (with HH we have well established you can not accept Christ or be baptized and just join HH. it takes months even years jumping through allot of hoops). How can you continue your walk with Jesus if you are trying to please him with a system of man’s law? PH....“For those of you that have made that decision I rejoice with you. However, I still may worry about your salvation. I may pray that God make clear to you what He wants you to know. I pray that your walk with Jesus is steps directed by him for you.” UG....How can you be worried about someone’s salvation when you have no preference as to what Gospel they are taught. How can one lose something he has never had. If all one has to do is call themselves a Christian, another words if you don’t qualify what someone does to be a Christian then again how could they lose what they have never gained? PH .... “So when I defend HH or some other group I am defending the Body of Christ. That simple.” UG.....As I have said before I do believe there are Christians in virtually every group. But if a group is teaching a false gospel one of Law instead of Grace, then you are not simply “defending the Body of Christ.” Again I am not saying that there are not good and decent people who may be Christians. HH does not teach the Good News of the Bible and ignoring that false teaching by not “judging” is not “defending the Body of Christ.” Pureheart if you and I are going to make it, it will be because we have accepted his Grace by faith just like you started your post off with. I do covet your prayers and concern. Please continue to pray for me as I remain.......... Under Grace | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
UG, I hope this reply makes sense. I have been on some other boards in some deep discussions and trying to answer you here also. Here goes…………………….. UG Said.....Wow...“This is where I need you to clarify.....You said.....I respect every ones belief. I may not agree with you. I may not agree with HH or I may not agree with the Jehovah Witnesses or I may not agree with the Catholics or I may not agree with the Baptists or I may not agree with blaa blaa blaa...” Pureheart I respect the Jehovah Witness as people but I do not believe what they teach is the same Good News as what you just posted Rom3:23 / John 3:16 etc.. Jehovah’s Witness is not teaching the Good News it is a system of law. You mentioned falling from grace as Lucifer, the JW do not believe in hell as you do. HH teaches a convoluted system of laws and caste hierarchy system of works. Are there Christians in both groups? Yes! Again it is in-spite of what they teach and not because of it. ++++++++++++++++++++ REPLY…..That’s what I said, I respect them and I do not essentially agree with their belief. But I, not being God, cannot declare them wrong and me right. You have your belief, I have my belief and they have their belief. And there are about 34,000, that’s THIRTY FOUR THOUSAND, other ideas (beliefs) that are different from you, me, and them. I will believe what I desire and I will wait for God to reveal to me, if He wishes, who is correct. I wish we had the time and space. I would list the 34,000 different beliefs and let you tell me who is acceptable and who is not; who’s going to make it and who won’t; who God approves of and who He doesn’t. ++++++++++++++++++++ Ki Elohim Shofet ++++++++++++++++++++ UG....I agree with you 100%. Scripture is full of verses that admonish not to judge our brothers.... RO 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. JAS 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor? UG......The list could go on and on. I am not talking about this type of judgment. Consider the following scripture: GAL 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! GAL 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. GAL 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. GAL 2:15 "We who are Jews by birth and not `Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 1 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" GAL 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! UG....Did Paul judge those preaching a false gospel! Yes. There is a place for judgment and discernment. +++++++++++++++++++ Reply…….If you feel God has placed the responsibility of judging these folks in your lap then you have a duty to do it. If judging them helps you in some way then it’s a deed you will account for. If you are judging them to qualify your belief then you are ‘out of line’ in my book. But you do as you see fit. +++++++++++++++++++ PH....“My job is to spread the Good News to all who have not heard. My job is to give everyone a chance to make the decision to accept Christ. Once they make the decision, I encourage them to find a church. ANY church. Just continue your walk with Jesus.” UG....ANY church? JW-Mormons-HH (with HH we have well established you can not accept Christ or be baptized and just join HH. it takes months even years jumping through allot of hoops). How can you continue your walk with Jesus if you are trying to please him with a system of man’s law? +++++++++++++++++++ Reply…….O.K. JUST ABOUT any Church. I stand corrected. There are some that are really not Churches; they just call themselves that for tax purposes. I would prefer that they all come to my little Church so I could personally tutor them in their walk with Christ. Or maybe I could send them to you. But in reality, I might suggest a few Churches in their area but if they choose a different one I will not object. You see, I look at the whole picture. I see so many souls that have never seen the inside of a church. I see so many lives lost and if I can get them reading the Bible; if I can get them to seek Jesus; if I can get them to give their life to Christ, then I’ll pray for God to guide them from there. +++++++++++++++++++++ PH....“For those of you that have made that decision I rejoice with you. However, I still may worry about your salvation. I may pray that God make clear to you what He wants you to know. I pray that your walk with Jesus is steps directed by him for you.” UG....How can you be worried about someone’s salvation when you have no preference as to what Gospel they are taught. How can one lose something he has never had. If all one has to do is call themselves a Christian, another words if you don’t qualify what someone does to be a Christian then again how could they lose what they have never gained? ++++++++++++++++++++ Reply……..O.K. your beginning to get silly now. You yourself said; see the next discussion; that many within these groups you point out are Christians. And it’s just your opinion that they are not ‘under grace’. If they give their life to Christ they should be covered, by your standards, no matter what they are subsequently taught. Let’s keep this on an adult level. ++++++++++++++++++++ PH .... “So when I defend HH or some other group I am defending the Body of Christ. That simple.” UG.....As I have said before I do believe there are Christians in virtually every group. But if a group is teaching a false gospel one of Law instead of Grace, then you are not simply “defending the Body of Christ.” Again I am not saying that there are not good and decent people who may be Christians. HH does not teach the Good News of the Bible and ignoring that false teaching by not “judging” is not “defending the Body of Christ.” ++++++++++++++++++++ Reply…….I am defending the Body of Christ, the very people you describe above and also the others that you, with your narrow-minded view, feel are not Christians. I sometimes wonder what you will say to these folks that you declare unrighteous if they are there to meet you when you are called to Glory. And just like Old Watchman said, it is very possible. Just a thought…… ++++++++++++++++++++ May God bless you and keep you. (Message edited by pure-heart on November 16, 2005) | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 117 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
Baruch Haba beShem Adonai | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Pureheat, Thanks for your reply. At some point we have to agree to disagree and be done with it. I am perfectly willing to stand by what I believe and apparently so are you. One thing we can agree on is that the final judgement is coming and things will be sorted out then. In the mean time God Bless you and keep you as well. Under Grace | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
Thanks Under Grace. God is good. I’m glad we agree on one major issue in that the final judgment is coming soon and things will be sorted out by our Redeemer. In the mean time I pray for peace and tranquility among all believers. God Bless You Pure Heart | ||
| old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 |
bump | ||
| old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 |
bump | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1598 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS (a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy. (b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL. HOW THEY DO THIS 1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God. 2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work. 3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process. 4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their "ministry". At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money. 5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process. 6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do. 7. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal. 8. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained. 9. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for their "spiritual welfare". | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1601 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment. 10. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this. Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group. SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:- 1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told. 2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered. 3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata, not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money to the group for some reason. 4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a "means to an end". 5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion. 6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a period of time through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt". RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE 1. PERSONALITY CHANGES Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders. 2. LOSS OF IDENTITY They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life. | ||
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