| Author | Message | ||
     cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and councubines... Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter. Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions...For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory...And let mine handmaid Emma Smith [Joseph Smith's wife] receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God... And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood -- if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another...he is justified; he cannot commit adultry with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore his he justified." Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verses 1-3, 52, 61-62 Joseph Smith, July 12, 1843, claiming the Lord gave him revelation stating that polygamy should be practiced in the church. More interesting quotes about Mormon doctrine: "A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers." Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 346 Jedediah M. Grant, Second Counselor to Brigham Young "...plural marriage is the patriarchal order of Marriage lived by God and others who reign in the Celestial Kingdom." 1961 John J. Stewart, Brigham Young and His Wives pg. 41 | ||
| cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
MARY THE WIFE OF GOD? "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband." Brigham Young, Deseret News, Oct. 10, 1866 "The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father..." Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Oct. 1853, page 158 NO VIRGIN BIRTH "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115 "...Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47 Apostle Bruce R. McConkie "...It was also lawful in Him, after having dealt with Mary, to give her to Joseph her espoused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity." The Seer, Oct. 1853, pg. 158 NO VIRGIN BIRTH AND BELIEF IN MULTI-GODS "Latter-day Saints recognize Jesus as literally the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh (John 3:16; Doctrine and Covenants 93:11; Moses 6:52). This title signifies that Jesus physical body was the offspring of a moratal mother and of the eternal Father...Latter-day Scripture affirms unequivocally that the birth of Jesus Christ was the mortal advent on earth of an actual God, a second and distinct member of the GODHEAD..." ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MORMONISM Vol. 2 The History, Scripture, Doctrine, and Procedure of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pg. 729 "In Christ alone I place my trust..." And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32 | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 286 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
cjv: I see what you THINK your quotes mean, but also know that you are pretty wide of the mark. Plurality of wives is not a modern principle, nor is it one exclusive to mormonism - in relaity the reason why you find it distasteful is because of your western upbringing - it would be interesting to see why you think the Bible opposes this. Your quotes relating to the virgin birth in no way say what you claim, if they had meant God had sex with Mary, they would have said it, but they don't. The only ones who read this absurd notion into those words anre non-mormons like you - a secret belief of your own is it? If we really believe these crazy doctrines you think we do, why on earth , from nearly 200 years worth of speeches by Church members, can't you find one that actually says what you claim it does withoout the reader having to "read between the lines" - answer, because we don't believe them. It's amazing that your sources have had to dig into quotes from people who were the councellor of somedoby to find the dirt you want - surely it would be obvious if it really is a s you say. I am amazed at the depths you are willing to trawl in your desperation to find a meaty morsel - but still come away with nothing of substance. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
I think a reading of what I've posted here, quotes from LDS apostles and LDS doctrine, leaves little doubt as to the meaning these men were trying to convey. It's all very clear joesdad, these men obviously meant that Mary had sex with God, it's all clear to anyone who would read these quotes. All except LDS of course. I'm sorry you do not see the absurdity in LDS Church teachings that is shown here. But while there's breath there's hope. "In Christ alone I place my trust..." | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 896 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.27 |
Western upbringing? The United States is considered the West. Plural wives is also called an abomination in the New Testament. (adultery, covetousness) Ordinance of marriage is one man, one woman. Just because people who are not mormons have practiced polygamy, does not make it right. If it is right, why don't mormons still practice it? The mormon church certainly teaches it will be practiced in the afterlife. What other reason would the mormon prophets have had to seal themselves to hundreds of dead women. Maybe they just wanted a lot of sisters. I am glad you don't believe your crazy doctrines, because that is what they are. Your church teaches that God has a body of flesh and bones. What is the purpose of that other than to bear children. Your church teaches that is what you need women for, childbearing. Figure it out, stupid. | ||
| x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
joesdad: I was brought up mormon and I can personaly affirm what cjv says is true, I was taught that "the holy ghost overshadowed mary while god had sexual intercourse with her" | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 898 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.112 |
I can also personally confirm this. It was taught to me in an 'investigater's class'. I have spoken of this before. So unless x11 lived in Anchorage, Alaska, we were taught the same thing in different wards, different states, and maybe different coutries by the same church. So where do you go to church, joesdad? (We have no interest in hunting you down). | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 899 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.112 |
What this tell us is although Joesdad may be too naive to hear what he is being taught, other members, teachers in fact, believe this doctrine and are teaching it. The words, had sex was used. Is that a mormon problem, or an antimormon problem? I read something interesting yesterday. the RLDS, though they use a different name now, are allowing 'lowly women' to hold the priesthood. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 900 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.112 |
I believe God, because he does not have flesh and bones, in his essence is both male and female. The Lord spoke of himself as being a chicken gathering her chicks. Should it have said 'rooster'? Or was this whole sentence added to the scriptures by some errant transcriber? God says we are all equal. God is no respector of persons. Not only that, but the first shall be last, and the last shall be first. Mormonism is a cult. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Thank you very much godchild and x11 for verifying the truth of what I wrote here. God bless you for giving your support. This is vital as a learning tool for those who do not know these things about the LDS Church and who come to places like this to find information. Thanks again for stepping forward and Praise be to God that you both are not longer in this cult. "In Christ alone I place my trust..." | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 143 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.139 |
Sorry Joe , but i was taught the same thing. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
YOU TOO STEEL!!  | ||
| x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
thanks cjv, it is my privlage and obligation. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 920 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.32 |
foxnet.com Lewdness was nothing new to Smith, as he had had a long history of it. Rivhard C. Evans book 'Forty Years in the Mormon Church, Why I Left' (Toronto, Canada, 1920) Dr. McIntyre, family physician of the Smiths in Manchester, New York, declared that the house of Joseph Smith Sr, was a perfect brothel. Iza Pierce, Samantha Payne and other schoolmates of the Smiths testify that Smith was lewd, and so were the rest of the family. Levi Lewis testifies that while Smith was pretending to translate the plates, he tried to seduce Eliza Winters, declaring that adultery was no sin. Eli Johnson led a mob against Smith for being intimate with his sister, Marinda, who afterwards married Orson Hyde. Brigham Young twitted Hyde about this fact, and Hyde put away his wife. Fanny Brewer testifies that Smith had serious trouble in kirtland, arising from his seducing an orphan girl. Mr. Mouton told his daughter and her husband that Emma Smith detected Joseph in adultery with a girl by the name of knight, and Joe confessed the crime to the officers of the church. In his book, Todd Compton notes that a full one third of the women Smith "married" were already married to other men when Smith married them. The statements go on and on. How many witnesses does it take to show mormons the truth about their prophet, who they testify of every Sunday, that he was a Prophet of God? It needs to be remembered, when joe smith went to the woods, he was not looking for God. He was looking for a church. Was this man a martyr for God or a man under the control of demons? All the denials in the world cannot change the kind of people who organized this 'church'. The changes by the current leaders are much to slow to erase the crimes committed by them.gc | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 152 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
My sister used to tell me how poor joseph was persecuted & even tared & feathered. After researching , I found out that He was tared & feathered by disgruntled mormons who had given him money to start a bank, which in no time went rupt,& as well was operating illegally . Also Eli Johnson was a part of the Tar & feather Group,due to the fact that Joseph was trying to seduce his sister. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 925 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 |
steelsword, I used to hear the same from Mom. They believe 'persecution' is a sign of righteousness. The problem is, (especially for mormons of the 'old school')they still refuse to read or watch anything that hints of being antimormon. Mom and I discussed over the phone a great documentary on the History Channel. She loves it too. But she added, "of course the man who wrote the documentary was wrong about the mormons. That just helped me remember. It was a program about the California goldrush. A mormon man went there and got rich (selling items at outrageously inflated prices), as a merchant. Capitalism at its best. Mom also talked a lot about the cartpushers (immigrants) and how dedicated they were to brigham y. True history tells how brigham let those people become on the verge of starvation and depravition and not have sympathy for them. All the while, he was living high off the hog. I wonder how many immigrant's bones are on the 'mormon trail'. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 926 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 |
After Mrs. Nancy Pratt rebuffed Joseph Smith (she threatened to scream if he didn't stop, which sounds like attempted rape to me, gc) June 28, 1842, joe then had Steven Markham swear to an affidavit (which he told Nancy he would do if she told) saying he had witnessed Nancy involved in immoral acts. Sidney Rigdon, John Olney, Carlos Gove,General Robinson and Henry Marks then signed certificates attesting to Nancy's high moral standards. Nancy's father, Sidney Rigdon, had a falling out with Joseph Smith. (Surprise!!!)although he was a first counselor in the church. Rigdon, denounce Smith: He wrote, "The leaders of the Chruch were monsters in human form; that Joseph Smith was cut off for his transgressions, that Joseph Smith departed from the living God, and like David and Soloman he contracted a whoring spirit (not exactly what I would call it but...gc) and that the Lord smote him from off the earth." (Evans, pg. 91) Joe smith had rigdon thrown out of the church, claiming that Rigdon was the polygamist. (wasn't that supposed to be a commandment of God, gc) At another time, Joseph Smith said, "Let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors, and make a heaven out of it. (this guy thought he could control God and satan, he probably thought he could control bullets, too, gc) Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, of the society be good." (no mention of being with God. Why? He didn't think he needed God. He was going to be god. gc) Helen Mar Kimball Whitney. Autobiography, c. 1839-1946). by Mark Hines, M.A. Does it make sense now why the lds church has tried so long and hard to cover up its history? I think I will go throw up now..........gc | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 927 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 |
Why throw up? I am a woman with four sisters, three daughters and three granddaughters. But for the grace of God.. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 107 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Godchild... it is all just rumors to the mormons. If it is one person saying things about js then its his word against theirs and it will never go down, you get the show me more, when you do its rumors, cut and paste rubbish, more anti mormons out to get them and put their prophet. If you show something in their disclosures printed and recorded as lds correct and it puts down christians and the bible they will not comment. No never say they are anti christian when the lds want everyone to think they are a christian church. Even when they request proof, like show me where a mormon who was a mason then left because of what js did. If you do get proof, they just say its from an unreliable source. What they forget is that people actually read these posts and will make their own judgements. I have not yet seen anyone post here claiming they read these threads and decided without doubt to then become a mormon. I wonder though if the opposite has occured. When you are trapped and brainwashed we must take pity on their souls. On the otherhand we cannot ignore what is read. There are to many so called rumours to ignore them. I would like to see the mormons search google find ,cut and paste the same against the last pope for all his life. They will soon learn the difference between a person dedicated to jesus than someone not. Take into account also, comparing all the life of the pope against the life of js after speaking directly to god. To have such a thing happen to a person would have to make them feel saintly and holy. But no not js he even thought it gods will to take up arms against fellow humans I will not and cannot believe that god would choose such a person to present himself to. Of all the wonderful humans that have graced this planet in the last 200 years, well known or not and god chose him. Give me a break | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 930 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.76 |
Polygamy was called 'a new and EVERLASTING covenant'. A covenant is a promise agreed upon by two or more people. (I covenant with God that I will worship him alone.) Please read what Brigham Young had to say about polygamy in Journal of Discourses Volume 11, pg 239. Brigham Young stated, "We will never, ever give up polygamy." "No one can reject it and be saved". In this statement by spoke forcefully about this subject. He stated if polygamy was ever rejected, people would say revelations by its prophets would be rejected and therefore mormonism would be rejected. I have to comment here, Brigham was right on that point, but he never thought it would happen. He never thought 'they would dare'. You can read numerous articles on polygamy by typing in 'tapestry on polygamy'. There are several links here. Or go to www.mazeministries.com. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 931 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.76 |
I have been going over some of the threads and notice joesdad makes the same statement over and over again about almost every subject: We are not the only ones who practiced polygamy. We are not the only ones who believe in more than one God. We are not the only ones who are materialistic. We are not the only ones......... What I would like to say to Joesdad is: WHAT'S YOUR POINT (I'm not screaming, just emphasizing) None of those 'other ones' you speak about are christian. Get the POINT??? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 932 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.76 |
over and over again it was stated by leaders of the mormon church: If what our prophets say are lies or are changed, the church will fall. Any sensible person would listen to all their leaders had/have to say. If mormons would follow the advice of their leaders, even if it means not reading what 'gentiles' say, they would be able to see their church has failed as a church of Christ. It is now a very successful business, built on the backs of their members, and has nothing to do with Christianity. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Amen and AMEN null & godchild!! |
