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hellohellohello (hellohellohello)
Intermediate Member
Username: hellohellohello
Post Number: 168
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 168.100.205.113
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 11:32 pm: | 
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If you could talk with Yoneq, what would you say? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Advanced Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 785
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
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Who decides who receives forgiveness and who doesnt? Yahshua or you???
Never mind, I already know the answer to that one... |
tpfkasof (tpfkasof)
Intermediate Member
Username: tpfkasof
Post Number: 298
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.188.249.228
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
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"...what would you say?"
- "Like, GET REAL, dude!" |
jasonerik (jasonerik)
New member
Username: jasonerik
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.59.188.219
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 10:48 am: |
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I would probably ask him to autograph my Bible!!
just kidding |
seebehindthings (seebehindthings)
Intermediate Member
Username: seebehindthings
Post Number: 206
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.174.183.110
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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I would say, "May I offer a prayer of deliverance for you, right now?" |
spike (spike)
New member
Username: spike
Post Number: 17
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 216.20.87.110
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:08 pm: |
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I would ask how he can call himself the annointed one when he has caused so much pain and suffering through his teachings of exclusion and superiority. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Advanced Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 807
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Are you saying he's not humble!!! BLASPMEMER!!!STONE HIM!!! |
youthgone (youthgone)
New member
Username: youthgone
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.128.180.33
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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if you have nothing to hide, please sit with a groop of my choice, and answer my questions!!!! After all i am one of your first generion and that is the least you owe me!! any responce but yes when where and how makes gods stomach turn along with mine I state this respectfully but have been turned down many times on the same request. |
anon05 (anon05)
New member
Username: anon05
Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.59.125.126
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 9:13 am: |
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what is the rationale behind discouraging people from an individual relationship with god and from furthering that relationship with independent study with a foundation of bible study and prayer...... and questioning..... isn't that necessary in order to follow god?
acts 17:11
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character
than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
also... per jesus commands.... why isnt the focus of community reaching out to the lost..... rather than an inward focus......
Mt 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Advanced Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 963
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
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What do you think their cafes, youth hostels, DC events, Bus tours and "Rap" sessions, open forums and free papers are? Recruiting stations,tactics and propaganda for a CULT!!!
They dont do it to make money! They spend, literally millions of dollars while their peoples' teeth rot out and get sick of all sorts of maladies from overwork, malnutrition and witholding of proper preventive and modern medicine... |
anon_e_mus (anon_e_mus)
New member
Username: anon_e_mus
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.204.76.17
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
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This is a good question. I would ask him some questions, some of a personal nature and others of a biblical nature. Anything more specific about my questions would give up my identity. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Advanced Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 965
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 4:42 pm: |
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The Truth will set you Free!!! |
anon_e_mus (anon_e_mus)
Junior Member
Username: anon_e_mus
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.204.27.129
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 9:44 am: |
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This is all so ill. I mean that this whole dysfunction affects me and I don't even live in the TT's. If you have any negative comments, you are coming against them and they cut you off from your family who does live in there. How sick is that? |
truth_seeker (truth_seeker)
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 228
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 12.202.117.114
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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"If you have any negative comments, you are coming against them and they cut you off from your family who does live in there."
anon_e_mus,
Have you read the posts here from colorado John? He was very open about who he was, where his daughter lived, and what he thought about the Twelve Tribes. Incidentally, he continues to visit her quite often.
Where did you get this information? I am perplexed at when this standard applies, as I know in some cases it does. Because, most people I know in the tribes have family that aren't real thrilled about them being there. But, they still seem to maintain relationships with them.
As a matter of fact, one member told me about how she took care of her dying relative who even thought the community was a "cult." Also, another woman I met was moved over seas so she could be close to her aging mother who was not from the community. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Advanced Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 994
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 8:18 am: |
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It all depends. Each case is different. Many times it depends on your "clout" or the caste your in...
The TT sees John as one on the fence and have "hope" for him as a very possible recruit and one who has great potential as a recruiter himself. I know him personally and alot of his history. I lived in Colo. Springs and worked in the Mate' Factor with his daughter... |
anon_e_mus (anon_e_mus)
Member
Username: anon_e_mus
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.204.62.40
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 3:12 pm: |
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"The TT sees John as one on the fence and have "hope" for him as a very possible recruit and one who has great potential as a recruiter himself. I know him personally and alot of his history. I lived in Colo. Springs and worked in the Mate' Factor with his daughter..."
That hits the nail on the head ex-yathed. As long as they continue to think that I have "hope" (as they say), then there is communication with family. Someone I know, who has left, told me that the person was in contact with some former brethren who are considered as ones who have "come against" the TT's. Those people are REALLY cut off and this person was worried that if I told the folks in the TT's that this person was in contact with them, that it would hinder this person's ability to see this person's family.
I hope this answers your question, truth-seeker.
BTW, Truth-seeker, are you a member or an ex-member, out of curiosity? |
miss_understood (miss_understood)
New member
Username: miss_understood
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 24.28.5.108
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:09 pm: |
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I would ask how he could call himself a prophet or an aposcle when it clearly states in the bible that the time for prophets and aposcles have passed and any claiming to be one shall burn forever in the lake of fire. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1068
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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miss_understood , Could you tell me were this scripture is? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1069
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:53 am: |
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Your way out of your league sweety...
Acts 2:16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
Matthew 23:34
Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1085
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 7:33 pm: |
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I wanted to point something out about how meanings of words can be twisted. Remember how we were always told that Thomas Moore meant "no place" when he made up the word Utopia? Thats not what he was suggesting! Look at this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia |
lookatall (lookatall)
New member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 4:49 am: |
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I spoke to this Mr.Spriggs? or Yoneq last week at the Billy Graham crusade. After looking at the literature being distributed and talking to some other members
I asked him if living communally made him and others of the group righteous before God or any more righteous than Billy Graham who the group had come there to correct. (this was not made obvious to the casual observer, they actually said they were supportiing him) .
In one tract loneliness was equated with sin which seemed a bizarre interprtation of scripture.I told
Mr Spriggs? what I believe which is that we are saved by grace and not by works and he looked at me with great condescension as he said flatly , " I used to believe that " whilst dropping a cup into an underlings hand with the comment , 'hold this.'
I felt moved by the commitment of so many young and earnest seekers of God and great concern for the fear they obviously live under - the most common control tactic of cult leaders like Spriggs.. there were 200 members there from all over the US and Canada. Is it unusual for Mr Spriggs to appear in public like this? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1096
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 7:53 am: |
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Yes! Its unusual! They must have felt they had to bring out the "Big Guns" for this arch nemesis and his cronies.
He rarely goes to events to evangelize. Except of course their million dollar event every 4th of July in DC. I wonder if they are there this year. Does anyone know? He probably gets his fill of scripture battling at their Open Forum Tent for the whole year...
Funny how it comes down to one standing on ones own interpretation, their ego, and their insistence to be right that justifies their faith.
The first step to wisdom is not the fear of God! Its the reverence of God and realizing you dont know "squat"! And that nobody else does either for that matter! |
lookatall (lookatall)
New member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 3:41 pm: |
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Please tell me what that event is about.
The only one with an ego was Spriggs- all the rest I met were in stark terror masked by dissociative disorder which relieves the terror and appears as ego. If they can outalk you it relieves their own anxiety and terror.
They must know they are right in order to survive mentally and thus if they cannot answer your questions they are too afraid to talk to you any more. That is exactly how far their faith stretches. In fact this response is the antithesis of faith.
Yes I agree, who can know the mind of God?
Are there any missing people in this group? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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The DC event takes place on the mall in front of the Air and Space museum. Its a whole block of TT tents made to look like a village with all their cottage industries represented. They have their double decker mobile cafe that makes just enough to almost cover the cost of the event. They also have a stage were they perform their own plays. They have dancing, a TT museum and the "Black Box" tent. This goes on for nearly 2 weeks. Oh! lets not forget Yoneqs favorite. The Open Forum Tent were huge and sometimes heated debates take place between the Tribers and the Christians.
Id like Yoneq to address this if I had the chance to confront him...
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/
This is what brought me to question the TT and my faith to the point of leaving for good... |
davidderush (davidderush)
Intermediate Member
Username: davidderush
Post Number: 207
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 68.54.56.233
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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I was at the Billy Graham event myself, and spoke with "lookatall". She kept insisting she was fine even though she lives her self-satisfied, middle-class life...and that I was in bondage to fear and torment, but didn't know it because I was brainwashed and had this "dissociative disorder".
I found it kind of funny that she kept castigating me (and all of us) for "judging her" because we believe what we do...all the while she kept insisting that my friends and I were all brainwashed cultists with associative disorder. She couldn't seem to see the contradiction in judging us that way, at the same time she was indignant at our supposed judgment of her. Finally, I had to cut her off, and tell her to stop wasting my time, since it was impossible to have a reasonable conversation with her.
And now, here she is on Factnet! I must say, I am not surprised.
I know the people I live with; and they are the most sane, real, down-to-earth people I have ever known...and I have known a LOT of people.
The people in the Twelve Tribes are, in general, the most mentally healthy and thoroughly integrated people I have ever known...and I have known a lot of people. I was deeply involved in Evangelical Christianity for 28 years, and was a pastor for 10 of those years....and in general, Christians are a confused mess compared to the men, women and children of the Twelve Tribes.
This is true for the simple reason that we have given up everything to love each other as Yahshua loved His disciples...and as such, we are actually living for the purpose for which God created us...we are forgiven and doing God's will, so we don't carry guilt...and we forgive one another, and even our enemies, so we don't carry bitterness; and we know we have passed from death to life, so we don't live in fear...rather, we live in the perfect love which casts out all fear.
My friends at the Billy Graham event are the most fearless people I have ever known, by far. It is not even close. And we were there out of love, and for no other reason; to find our lost brothers and sisters who are still trapped in the unreality of Christianity, and lead them to the promised land....and we found some of them.
Sincerely, David Derush
http://www.TheLitmusTest.org
People who cannot pass the Litmus Test themselves, insist on seeing evil where none exists, in order to justify themselves. But in the final day, all will be judged by the Word, and no excuses with avail anything. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1104
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 10:57 pm: |
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Of course you were there. Your one of the High Sorcerers who flies around the country off the sweat of the proletariat in the Tribes.
Speaking of litmus tests, I believe you need to check yourself! It seems your ph is way on the acidic side...
"Finally, I had to cut her off, and tell her to stop wasting my time"
"And we were there out of love, and for no other reason"
You split tongue serpent...
To Truthseeker and ingodsnames wife...
2 Timothy 3
Godlessness in the Last Days
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. |
truth_seeker (truth_seeker)
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 253
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 12.202.117.114
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 5:34 am: |
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lookatall,
Salvation is by grace through faith. But, faith, without works, is dead. It was real faith that sacrificed Isaac on the alter of God.
Clearly, such a faith is pleasing to God, and from what I have witnessed,
that is exactly how far the faith of the Twelve Tribes' stretches. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1106
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 7:19 am: |
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So, theres no one else in the whole world without grace, faith and works? Hmmmm...
Theres no one else that has the Holy Spirit? Hmmm...
Theres no one else who is forgiven and saved? Hmmmm...
Not since the the demise of the First Church? Hmmm... |
yeshuayesbut (yeshuayesbut)
Junior Member
Username: yeshuayesbut
Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.138.202.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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I would first like to say to ex_yathed "Shalom big time" Hmmm...I truly sense more peace in your last post then many,many of your others! Praise the Creator?! you darn tootin' . I also was thinking the exact same thing this morning when I read Truthseekers post! I understand what Truthseeker is saying but the context is only biblically correct IF the TT are only believers on the ENTIRE PLANET!!!! Tom Q |
yeshuayesbut (yeshuayesbut)
Junior Member
Username: yeshuayesbut
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.138.202.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
|
I would first like to say to ex_yathed "Shalom big time"Hmmm...I truly sense more peace in your last post then many,many of your others! Praise the Creator?! you darn tootin'. I also was thinking the exact same thing this morning when I read Truthseekers post! I understand what Truthseeker is saying but the context is only biblically correct IF the TT are only believers on the ENTIRE PLANET!!!! Tom Q |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Dear Yoneq,
The narcissist is the guru at the centre of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock: his spouse, his offspring, other family members, friends, and colleagues. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals. The less accomplished he is in reality – the more stringent his mastery and the more pervasive the brainwashing.
The – often involuntary – members of the narcissist's mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, "enemies", mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted.
The narcissist's control is based on ambiguity, unpredictability, fuzziness, and ambient abuse. His ever-shifting whims exclusively define right versus wrong, desirable and unwanted, what is to be pursued and what to be avoided. He alone determines the rights and obligations of his disciples and alters them at will.
The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviours. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals.
The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification. He seeks to control both situations and people compulsively.
He strongly disapproves of others' personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one's family require his permission. Gradually, he isolates his nearest and dearest until they are fully dependent on him emotionally, sexually, financially, and socially.
He acts in a patronising and condescending manner and criticises often. He alternates between emphasising the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the talents, traits, and skills (idealises) of the members of his cult. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations – which legitimises his subsequent abusive conduct.
The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skilful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.
His thinking is dogmatic, rigid, and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn't brook criticism and disagreement. He demands – and often gets – complete trust and the relegation to his capable hands of all decision-making.
He forces the participants in his cult to be hostile to critics, the authorities, institutions, his personal enemies, or the media – if they try to uncover his actions and reveal the truth. He closely monitors and censors information from the outside, exposing his captive audience only to selective data and analyses.
The narcissist's cult is "missionary" and "imperialistic". He is always on the lookout for new recruits – his spouse's friends, his daughter's girlfriends, his neighbours, new colleagues at work. He immediately attempts to "convert" them to his "creed" – to convince them how wonderful and admirable he is. In other words, he tries to render them Sources of Narcissistic Supply.
Often, his behaviour on these "recruiting missions" is different to his conduct within the "cult". In the first phases of wooing new admirers and proselytising to potential "conscripts" – the narcissist is attentive, compassionate, empathic, flexible, self-effacing, and helpful. At home, among the "veterans" he is tyrannical, demanding, wilful, opinionated, aggressive, and exploitative.
As the leader of his congregation, the narcissist feels entitled to special amenities and benefits not accorded the "rank and file". He expects to be waited on hand and foot, to make free use of everyone's money and dispose of their assets liberally, and to be cynically exempt from the rules that he himself established (if such violation is pleasurable or gainful).
In extreme cases, the narcissist feels above the law – any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities.
Hence the narcissist's panicky and sometimes violent reactions to "dropouts" from his cult. There's a lot going on that the narcissist wants kept under wraps. Moreover, the narcissist stabilises his fluctuating sense of self-worth by deriving Narcissistic Supply from his victims. Abandonment threatens the narcissist's precariously balanced personality.
Add to that the narcissist's paranoid and schizoid tendencies, his lack of introspective self-awareness, and his stunted sense of humour (lack of self-deprecation) and the risks to the grudging members of his cult are clear.
The narcissist sees enemies and conspiracies everywhere. He often casts himself as the heroic victim (martyr) of dark and stupendous forces. In every deviation from his tenets he espies malevolent and ominous subversion. He, therefore, is bent on disempowering his devotees. By any and all means.
The narcissist is dangerous. |
anon_e_mus (anon_e_mus)
Intermediate Member
Username: anon_e_mus
Post Number: 114
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 141.150.246.251
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
|
David,
From your own personal experience, how much does Elbert fit this model? I am guessing 60-70%. Am I off? Is there stuff I don't know about? How "above the law" is he? I would like to learn more about what really goes on behind closed doors? |
doug (doug)
Advanced Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 995
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.202.227
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
|
But he is only trying to obey the bible (yeah, right, dream on) |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:22 pm: |
|
Id lean more towards 90%.
I was never behind those doors. Are there any ex-government out there in factnet land? |
andy_n (andy_n)
Member
Username: andy_n
Post Number: 86
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.157.35.239
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 2:26 am: |
|
xy, as Tom Jefferson observed: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Those in the higher levels of any organization rarely leave voluntarily, as the perks are hard to refuse. It is much as the effect the Ring had on Bilbo and Frodo, either of whom could have become a Gollum, because given enough time holding on to something of power, it will corrupt even the best of hobbits (or men). Rember the ring wraithes?
Hmm.
Is it only me right now that has a mental image of Elbert saying "my precioussss, yessss"?
(and no, I haven't seen the movies, but I have read the books) |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
|
Excellent analogy once again Andy. I read all 4 books in the 70s. They came out with that animated crap of a film about 10 years ago or so. But the new ones are excellent. I highly recommend them.
I myself relate closely to Theoden. Under a spell of addiction and religion(one in the same) and now am free to be the King I was meant to be.
But I myself see Yoneq more as the sad lonely old man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz who puts on this grandiose show to scare people into obedience to his beliefs.
You dont need the Wizard to get back home! "Youve had the power yourself all along!" |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1003
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.173.183
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 8:37 pm: |
|
If I could speak to Yonek I'd ask him if he believes he is an apostle and his communities are the twelve tribes.
If he believes that than my next question is how can he sit in the seat of Moses and Jesus and not see the fallacy of his pride. |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.173.183
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 8:39 pm: |
|
In other words, If he can't see it himself, we have nothing to say to each other |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1216
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
|
Doug, he doesnt consider himself the only Apostle. Theres Nun, Yohannan Abraham, Daniel Of Yehuda and a few more... |
freefall (freefall)
New member
Username: freefall
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 66.174.76.201
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
|
If I could speak to Yoneq, in light of recent studies. I would like to know how we could base our faith on a book that is so twisted, as to be unrecogniseable, with regard to the actuality of the first churches. All the editing to conform to a palatable version for the romans. Twisting to conform to early church fathers personal views. Hard to have faith in a false doctrine. |
freefall (freefall)
New member
Username: freefall
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 66.174.76.201
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
|
If I could speak to Yoneq, in light of recent studies. I would like to know how we could base our faith on a book that is so twisted, as to be unrecogniseable, with regard to the actuality of the first churches. All the editing to conform to a palatable version for the romans. Twisting to conform to early church fathers personal views. Hard to have faith in a false doctrine. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1222
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 7:59 pm: |
|
Right on!!! |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.133.207
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
|
He may consider them apostles but as far as I know it was Yoneq that started all the communities |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.133.207
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 8:44 pm: |
|
also those he considers apostles all came through his communities, all of them were baptised by Yoneq and Yoneqs' disciples or they weren't considered saved. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1223
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
|
Damn Doug, you gotta start somewhere! Yohannan Abraham established France and Nun established Australia, and Nathaniel I think is his name, established Brazil.
So you can get of that Moses trip your on. Im not defending them, but you take the most off the wall stance against him. Moses, the cutting off the finger thing... Their off all the way around so quit trying to pinpoint it... |
freefall (freefall)
New member
Username: freefall
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 66.174.90.201
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
|
There's definately a humility issue here, meaning in the tribes. Can they be so sure basing their annointing on the twisted document called the Bible? |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1011
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.133.207
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 11:34 pm: |
|
Damn Doug, you gotta start somewhere!
Exactly my point |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1012
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.133.207
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 11:37 pm: |
|
X Y
Did they really start those communities (without Yoneq) or are they just figureheads? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1224
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 12:12 am: |
|
About your point... If you comb your hair right, it wont show!!! ROTFLMAO!!!
If I am following your argument correctly, If theres going to be the regathering of the Spiritual Twelve Tribes or rebuilding the first church, doesnt there have to be a first Apostle, followed by more? What are you expecting? Messiah to come back and start it? I dont understand your Moses deal... Moses started it all by freeing the Isrealites. So someone has to start it! Or without the Messiah, theres got to be a new "Pentecost" were a group of men start speaking in tounges and performing miracles.
Just what are you looking for?
Now face the facts. If God wanted something or required us to do something, dont you think a all knowing and powerful creator of all Know how to get His wishes met? Or do you think he sadisticly enjoys giving man a rubiks cube without instructions and observing them go through hell trying to figure it out? He doesnt need anything! He IS everything!!! He loves us and want us to LIVE and enjoy life and His creation! |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.92.234
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
|
All as I am saying is that the only apostle of all twelve apostles was Messiah. The only leader of all 12 tribes was Moses.
I don't believe that Sprigs is equal to Moses or Yahshua but he is sitting in their seat. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1228
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
|
Messiah was not an apostle! And Moses had lots of help! And The only thing Yoneq is sitting on is his ass, and I dont mean a donkey!
Your silly Doug!
(Message edited by ex_yathed on July 31, 2005) |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
|
Where is Mr. Spriggs now and what happened to the ex pastor? who used to be in Gospel Outreach who was also at the Billy Graham Crusade? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:45 pm: |
|
Not sure, but I assume they're in the Tribe of Benjamin (SE USA)somewhere now that it will be the last Tribe to be established.
Chattanooga, Virginia or Georgia...
(Message edited by ex_yathed on August 15, 2005) |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
New member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:31 am: |
|
Prov 6:16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
Prov 6:17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
Prov 6:18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
Prov 6:19 A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.
Deut 19:15 "A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.
1 Tim 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 8:25 am: |
|
As you can see, the subject(vis2000), has already lost the ability to use their own words and rational thinking mechanism. It is apparent that the the process of being stripped of all self identity has begun. The dough is being prepared. The scriptures, dogma and doctrine are being kneaded in for the preparation of the application of the TTs "disciple cookie cutter". Oh, and lets not forget the "Leaven"! What surprises me is that they are allowing the sterile environment of information control to be compromised by possible contamination or defilement of unwanted, evil information that one can be exposed to on the "Web". This could definitely effect the ability of the dough to "rise" in the "proof box" of the TT. |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
|
The visitor 2000 is most likely someone who has posted on this board before. Re those comments ,
the Bible is so often used selectively to condemn others by those who are misled, hurt and wounded, or have an axe to grind, which was never Gods intention. Scripture is only valid when viewed as a whole. Although there are scriptures of judgement to warn Christians, it is a mistake to lose sight of His soverign grace and our inability to be righteous unless we are humble enough to admit that we are wrong in the light of the "two edged sword that is able to discern between soul and spirit."
"Therefore there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8: 1-2
I thank God that I am not dependent on a set of rules for salvation, that are devised by a human being who claims to base those laws on scriptures. Even if the words are right the spirit expressed here is one of condemnation.
The worst part of this is that in order to feel justified
many victims of cults become perpetrators of this condemnation and harshness all the time believing they are following Christ. Christ weeps. He was crucified for our sins. As he spoke so profoundly from the cross "It is finished." |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
New member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.172.26.187
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
|
yathed replys - "As you can see, the subject(vis2000), has already lost the ability to use their own words and rational thinking mechanism...."
2 Tim 3:3 [They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate and loose in morals and conduct, uncontrolled and fierce, haters of good.
lookatall replys - "which was never gods intention"
Mark 8:33 But turning around [His back to Peter] and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, Get behind Me, Satan! For you do not have a mind intent on promoting what God wills, but what pleases men [you are not on God's side, but that of men]. |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 221
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.171
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:15 pm: |
|
v2k,
Sounds like you're in agreement (with XY and Timothy) that you've become "without human affection", truly a "hater of good".
You certainly have become a slanderer if you cannot verify that whoever you were referring to is 'intemperate'. |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Junior Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
|
Ps 31:18 Let the lying lips be silenced, which speak insolently against the [consistently] righteous with pride and contempt.
Ps 35:20 For they do not speak peace, but they devise deceitful matters against those who are quiet in the land.
Ps 41:6 And when one comes to see me, he speaks falsehood and empty words, while his heart gathers mischievous gossip [against me]; when he goes away, he tells it abroad. |
obrotherwherearthou (obrotherwherearthou)
Intermediate Member
Username: obrotherwherearthou
Post Number: 139
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 207.69.140.23
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 6:38 am: |
|
yawn. more rhetoric.
The tribes really cured me from believing the literal truth of the bible, I do have to thank them for that. |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 222
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.171
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
|
lookatall,
I just reread your post from July 4 (#24) and find it profound. thanks. |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Junior Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
|
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death. [Isa. 30:33.] [Deut. 4:29; 28:15ff.] |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
|
I really feel sorry for you... Maybe God will open your eyes if you let Him... |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Junior Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
|
Ps 32:10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked, but he who trusts in, relies on, and confidently leans on the Lord shall be compassed about with mercy and with loving-kindness. |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 226
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.170
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
|
Even Joneq would tell you that you are idolizing the Bible. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1296
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
|
Now Im wicked for feeling sorrow for you!
You need professional help! |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Junior Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 12:03 am: |
|
Prov 10:22 The blessing of the Lord--it makes [truly] rich, and He adds no sorrow with it [neither does toiling increase it]. |
tpfkasof (tpfkasof)
Intermediate Member
Username: tpfkasof
Post Number: 371
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.188.251.126
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 12:58 am: |
|
 Prov 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit
Is a fool who repeats his folly.
...and repeats, and repeats, and repeats...  |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 9:49 am: |
|
I was a fool. I returned to the TT 3 times!
But beleive it or not, you can teach an old dog new things...Its just takes a little longer!!! |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
|
Thanks, I am grieved by the apparent torture suffered by those on this board and others in other cults who twist scripture into a document of hatred. I am even more grieved that they inflict this torture on others in an effort to survive emotionally. Many others who post on these boards I believe do not want to see members of cults suffer any more as they have a deep understanding of fear and how it is used to control others and just how debilitating and shattering that is.. |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:22 pm: |
|
Thanks, I am grieved by the apparent torture suffered by those on this board and others in other cults who twist scripture into a document of hatred. I am even more grieved that they inflict this torture on others in an effort to survive emotionally. Many others who post on these boards I believe do not want to see members of cults suffer any more as they have a deep understanding of fear and how it is used to control others and just how debilitating and shattering that is.. |
doug (doug)
Senior Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.79.19
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 12:21 am: |
|
Visitor 2000
You quoted all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death. [Isa. 30:33.] [Deut. 4:29; 28:15ff.]
Do you know what the first death was? Do you know what the lake of fire is or where it is? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1306
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 8:25 am: |
|
The lake of fire is the waters of the TT which brings on the first death. Resurrection is when you leave. The second death is when ... Well, I haven't got that far...but I have no fear of it. Love conquers all fear!!! |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
|
Doug...I am very interested in what you think the Lake Of Fire is!! It seems that every religon and philosophy has a different view on this. I myself don't even know what to think about this. The many years I spent in the community has really left me confused in just about all aspects of God, life and death. I don't know what is coming from my own feelings and thinking and what is residu left from being told what to think and feel for so long. |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 8:29 am: |
|
e.y
do you really think the first death is the Community? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1309
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 8:37 am: |
|
Shoot! I dont know! I was just goofin! If anyone says he knows, he's either a fool, crazy or deluded with grandeur! |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
|
HAHAHA! I was thinking that was one theory I had not heard yet |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
|
Based on a synopsis of beliefs from the official 12 tribes website
I would ask Mr.Spriggs
Is he is a true follower of Yashua becoming more and more like him? If he is , do his followers have access to his bank accounts?
Do his workers know what their salary is from the
contracting businesses and exactly how it is spent?
As 12 tribe members who have been faithful workers age and encounter diseases like cancer and alzheimers like the rest of the population will he treat them medically or let them die in pain rather than spending the money. Has anybody in the tribe got bad teeth or gum disease. Does he ever visit a dentist?
In other words has he increased in love and care for others under his control as they age and experience more health problems.
Does he think his spiritutal nation ( the so called nouveau and earth bound twelve tribes) excludes all others who follow Christ around the world?
Is he ever infuriated repelled and irritated by those who expose and threaten his position?
Has he ever experienced pride and if so is it righteous to criticise what he judges as pride in those who challenge the authenticity of his claims about himself?
Has he considered in true humility what will happen to him if he is decieves Gods elect? Matthew 24:23-28?
Carcase (vs 28)is a graphic way to describe what remains of a person who has encountered the horrors of living in a cult and eagle is a graphic way to describe a cult leader.
He grows in strength as his wounded victims weaken and die. If anyone has seen vultures at work this is the way that God regards those who attack the helpless. It is a repelling and frightening image.
But there is a great and precious promise in the Bible.
God can restore the years that the locust has eaten away. There is spiritual hope for all of us no matter what our present state. |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 14
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:31 pm: |
|
lookatall,
To the TT yoneq is just about equal to Yahshua himself. In Boston we had single brothers sleeping in the garage with nothing but an old tarp seporating them from the cars...but youeq had an appartment with two beedrooms, a kitchen, livingroom, bathroom, and office locked away on the third floor of the carriage barn. The thought of offering this space to the single brothers was like considering walking on Holy Ground with your work boots on. Afterall it had to stay nice for the four or five times a year yoneq used it. For the most part when he is in the area he uses a beach cottage on the Cape. It is easier for him to concertrate in the peace and quiet. While there were brothers and sisters having a hard time eating in the communities yoneq neede a new VW bus to drive around in because the three year old one he had was no longer good enough for him. He travels first class all around the world to communities that can not even afford socks for their children and is welcomed like a king. It would be an insult to God himself to not lavish this man with things you can not afford. Afterall he is yoneq |
anon_e_mus (anon_e_mus)
Intermediate Member
Username: anon_e_mus
Post Number: 124
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 141.150.254.13
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:35 pm: |
|
is this true? or just vicious lying? If it's true.... I don't want to say. |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 15
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:54 pm: |
|
OH IT IS VERY VERY TRUE!! |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
New member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
|
Ridiculously bad grammar/Run on sentence alert:
Does anybody know about the anecdote that was shared with me when i was in the TT regarding the "beautiful" space that was built for Yoneq and Ha Emeq in the Northeast which upon first seeing it Ha Emeq allegedly said something to the effect of "let it be the single brothers' room. They work hard and should have a nicer place to sleep". Any truth to that or is it myth? |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:11 pm: |
|
Jenny,
did you live there?? Did you see the conditions those men lived in day to day?? |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:52 pm: |
|
Jenny,
I have one more thing to say about that. I do not know what ha emeq may or may not have said when she saw the lavish living area created for them. What I do know is that it was built apon their request. I know that for a full year every morning, when I went down the stairs to make breakfast, there was a single brother sleeping under the table in the livingroom so he would not be stepped on during the night. What ha emeq may have said in a moment of appreciation is not important if it is not backed by some action. So jenny if you have knitpicking sarcasm to dish out maybe you should stick to subjects you know something about! |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
New member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:35 pm: |
|
Oh geez, i am sorry justlivin. i don't think that i expressed that right. No, i was not being sarcastic, and yes, the single brothers in the two places i lived had it rough. i am just curious if there is any truth to that story, or if it is another TT tall tale. And you are right. Even if it is true it means nothing considering the reality of how Yoneq and Ha Emeq live compared to the single brothers. |
truth_seeker (truth_seeker)
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 271
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 12.202.117.114
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:13 am: |
|
Lookatall,
I really don't care to interact on this forum anymore, but I could not resist responding to your inquiry, even though, it seems you have already made up your mind about what you believe to be the truth about the Twelve Tribes of Israel, or the Body of Messiah. You met my friends, people who have laid down their life for each other in Yahshua. How could you treat such holy people with such contempt?
Then again, how could Yahshua's own people crucify him?
When we visited the Twelve Tribes, one sister was recovering from a minimally invasive out patient surgery. Another new brother was suffering terribly from a cavity. It was Sunday, so he had to wait till morning before he could see a dentist. His brothers really helped him through that ordeal, he was having quite a difficult time with the pain. The next morning, he returned home with a pulled tooth and a bottle of pain pills. Would you believe they had named that fellow Abel? The pregnant sister there, I know, at least had one prenatal visit to a near by clinic. I guess what I am trying to say is that I witnessed them treating their sick and expectant mothers with dignity and respect out of wisdom and love.
1 Corinthians 9
11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
I'd give up my temper-pedic matress to have a part in the abundant life the Master's disciples share in the Twelve Tribes, VOLUNTARILY! |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 6:59 am: |
|
then go truth-seeker. I am sure they would love to have you. After a year you come back and tell us how it was. |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 19
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 7:13 am: |
|
Jenny,
I am sorry too. I sometimes get worked up when people have so much to say about the TT but they have never lived the life themself. So I can get a little upset....sorry. I know you had experiences of your own there. I know what people see when they visit the community. And so much of what they see is real. There is real love there. It was not untill I was part of the government that I saw just how fucked up things really were. When your just a little sheep you do what your told. If you have questions there are answers there to keep you blind to what is really going on. However, when you are let behind the curtin you see so so clear the extent of hypocrisy. Well thats what it took for me anyway. Some are lucky enough to see it sooner. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 8:34 am: |
|
Truth seeker. If what you say is true, you must have been in a wealthy community. Maybe they have changed their priorities and are providing proper health care, but thats not alot of our experiences. We've seen the exact opposite!
you say"How could you treat such holy people with such contempt?"
Its not the "people" we hold in contempt!!! Its the organization!!! The "Grand Illusion"!!! Yoneq has on the "Emperors Clothes"!!!
I gaurentee every ex-member here LOVES every soul that has joined the TT! Everyone of them had or has the heart to search and find and SERVE God with their whole being!!! The heart of Yahshua!!!
WE LOVE THEM!!! We just hate what has become of a beautiful ideal, a simple love gone askew and the Elders dont know how to return to their first love. That simple humble love that brought them together. So they try and hold on to whats left and beef up the walls to stop the house from crumbling completely...
God help them! God help us all!!! |
mozelle (mozelle)
Junior Member
Username: mozelle
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.105.86.69
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
|
Just curious...why did the cavity get so bad that he was in such unbearable pain and had to have the tooth pulled?
Usually a cavity gets a filling, a root canal and cap if it's really bad. A tooth that has to be pulled has been visibly decaying and physically hurting for awhile.
Now that's love... |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 229
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.170
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
|
Well said XY. |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Junior Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
|
Col 2:18 Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit,
Col 2:19 And not holding fast to the Head, from Whom the entire body, supplied and knit together by means of its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves]. |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
New member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:47 pm: |
|
Mozelle, that is what i saw where i was. Dental problems had to be really bad to be addressed, at least amongst the single brothers who i saw suffering with some very serious dental issues. One single brother couldn't eat carrot sticks because his teeth were so bad. They were literally falling out. He was never sent to the dentist. That went on for 1 1/2 years. Another brother complained of toothaches for a really long time before he was sent. i think that in general families get more medical attention there than the singles. They advocate and look out for each other. (So much for not having to look out for your own needs there. It sounds good in theory, and i was fortunate to have covers who did look out for me. But i saw some [particularly the more devout single brothers who were only going to take what was given them and who were not going to be a squeaky, "me, me, me" wheel] slip through the cracks.)
In my clan each member was responsible, by and large, to pay for their own medical needs (and were also personally responsible to pay for child support). If someone had to pay a bill, for example dental, orthodontal, or maybe glasses, they, or their parents, would be sent "driving". The driving money was supposed to be Yehudah's contribution to the poorer tribes, specifically Brazil and Argentina, but our clan often used that work to pay bills. This came as a surprise to me. i still don't fully understand their switch from communal to their present, less communal model. It just seems a bit misleading to present themselves as a classless, communal society when they are clearly not and seem to be heading further away from that model.
Justlivin, i too get upset when i read posts that are clearly based in ignorance. It's sad and frustrating to have seen the other side of the TT, and to have to just sit back and watch others make the same mistake i did in "courting" them because either they haven't been exposed to the hypocrisy there or they are just not willing to admit to themselves that all is not rosy in "paradise". This is understandable though. i still have bouts of profound sadness because i was sure that i had found the answer to all the world's problems. Now it seems fanciful and i do have a good laugh (a wistful one) about my naivete. Just the other day i met a lovely man who is quite gentle and sensitive. He has never felt that he belonged anywhere. My kneejerk thought was to tell him about "a place to belong". Then i got soooo sad because i don't actually know such a place. i thought i did but it turned out to be a place to get psychologically twisted and emotionally gutted: a place to belong if you can stomach lying to yourself, to others and if you are somehow able to turn a blind eye to entrenched hypocrisy shrouded by a "Godly" demeanor. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1319
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 8:00 am: |
|
Jenny, I have found myself in the same place. Finding someone like myself looking for that place to belong and I would go into a diatribe about the wonderful place I used to live. Then they would ask "Why are you not still there?". Then reality would slap me in the face... |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Junior Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.172.25.58
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 1:42 pm: |
|
Lev 18:24 Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for in all these things the nations are defiled which I am casting out before you.
Ps 106:39 Thus were they defiled by their own works, and they played the harlot and practiced idolatry with their own deeds [of idolatrous rites].
John 2:21 But He had spoken of the temple which was His body. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1321
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
|
Damn pop-ups! LOLrotf |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 3:36 pm: |
|
I am so sorry for all the atrocious and unChristian ways discussed here that the past and present victims of this cult have suffered both physically and emotionally. There is no doubt from these first hand reports that there is the kind of medical neglect in the Twelve Tribes group that merits multiple investigations. People on welfare are better treated than this.
I have no contempt for any of these victims who have an outer form of holiness that has been dictated by a mere human being who seeks to raise himself up next to God. I seek for those still "inside" to understand that they ARE victims and for them to reclaim their powers of reason and so understand the true gospel of Christ.. Enough suffering has gone on there.
If I could speak to Yoneq I would tell him to repent and beg God for forgiveness for what he has done in the name of Yashua. I would tell him to go to his captives and set them free. Let go of his material wealth and self importance because one day he will have to give an account to God for what he has done. Jesus weeps.
Mr Spriggs certainly resembles the slave driver Pharoah rather than the prophet Moses.
Go tell it on the mountain,
over the hills and everywhere,
go tell it on the mountain
to let my people go. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1323
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
|
Actually lookatall, I dont believe any of the TTs properties are in Yoneqs name. He actually doesnt live like some Guru with several Rolls Royces and a castle here and there. He actually is a man of simple means, its the people who love him who treat him like royalty. Yes, he has finances available to him, but he shops frugally and gives generously. He gave me the shirt off his back once,needless to say he could go buy another, but his heart is for Gods people. You must realize that he BELIEVES in what he is doing and is actually a very humble Godly man.(humble:power under control) Albiet you will see that "Hell fire southern baptist preacher" in him rise up when things arent performed to his specs. But realize that he believes he has a direct conduit to the Almighty and when directions arent followed, they are not disobeying "Yoneq" but God!
He also believes that fleshly momentary fleshly sufferings are part of the "row to how" and is worth enduring to "further the Kingdom of God".
OK, he has the newest VW vanagon available. He travels all over the US and sleeps in this thing. So what? He COULD have a 40ft Winnebego with a jucuzzi! He's at every "gathering" wherever he is. He doesnt "sleep in". He joins in on work were need be. He functions as a CEO of a corperation, making all the high command decisions. But his main function is creating their teachings. His prophetic word. Yes, he believes it is to be taken as Gods word. He's a dedicated man and believes in everything he does with his whole heart. Thats more than I can say for alot of people.
OK, yes! He's deluded! But, HE IS NOT A BAD MAN!!!
What would I say to Yoneq? "Gene, you have allowed the leaven of the Pharisees to "puff you up"! Return to your first love! The one of unconditional love and forgiveness. Remember the "Vine House"!
Rev 2:2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
Yoneq, I love you. Please heed the words to the church of Ephesus. They are for YOU! |
tpfkasof (tpfkasof)
Intermediate Member
Username: tpfkasof
Post Number: 374
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.188.251.126
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
|
If a man preaches a false righteousness, but believes in what he preaches, is what he preaches made true by his belief in it?
If a man believes that what he does is right, but what he does hurts others, is what he does made right because he believes it is?
What's the state of Yoneq's dental hygiene? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1324
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
|
I never said he or his actions were right.
I have know idea about his teeth! |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 9:48 am: |
|
tpfkasof, well said
Can someone do a survey of the various tribes ( I am assuming this refers to various physical locations around the world) assessing things like
dental care
prenatal care
treatments for depression or psychosis
paediatric care (nutrition, immunization)
(those who do not immunise their children put not only their own children but the whole population of the country in danger of for example a smallpox epedemic)
trauma care, (such as on construction sites)
education , especially of the learning disabled population (Have they ever read the Americans with Disabilites Act)
These are available with the exception of dental care to the general population of this country , many times flawed, but nevertheless available to those who seek it.
Does Yoneq have health insurance? ( I am assuming
perhaps wrongly that no one else does)
Next time you see Yoneq compare his smile to everyone elses. Often those who reach their fifties with no dental care will have broken front teeth or gum disease. Dental care is expensive for anyone but I would have thought it should be provided (along with medical insurance) since members are virtual slaves with no financial resources except possibly those sent by families on the outside of the cult. If Yoneq has a giant bank account which seems inevitable he is certainly not going to let evidence of this show to his voluntary slaves.He does have somewhat of a Dickensian appearance and in the future he might stop smiling.
Where is his beach compound in Cape Cod. Who else goes there?
Also if people or children die there, where are they buried? Can their families come to see them and are they informed. Has anyone witnessed or directly experienced child abuse on the compounds?
Is their death reported to authorities or do they simply "disappear?
Is there a list somewhere of all the locations? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1325
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 2:41 pm: |
|
OK EVERYBODY!!! Before you continue on how that "Nasty Yoneq fella!" treats his followers and how they dont have proper medical or dental care, READ THIS! And if you want proof, I CAN backit up!!! Freakin whiners!!!
COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS!!!
If you live in a good home, have plenty to eat and can read, you are a member of a very select group.
And if you have a good house, food, can read and have a computer, you are among the very elite.
If you woke up this morning with more health than illness ... you are more fortunate than the million who will not survive this week.
If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of starvation ... you are ahead of 500 million people in the world.
If you can attend a church meeting without fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death...you are fortunate, more than three billion people in the world can't.
If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep...you are richer than 75% of this world.
If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace...you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.
If your parents are still alive and still married...you are very rare, even in the United States.
If you hold up your head with a smile on your face and are truly thankful ... you are blessed because the majority can, but most do not.
If you can hold someone's hand, hug them or even touch them on shoulder ... you are blessed because you can offer a healing touch.
If you can read this message, you just received a double blessing in that someone was thinking of you, and furthermore, you are more blessed than over two billion people in the world that cannot read at all.
Have a good day, count your blessings, Peace. |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Junior Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
|
Phil 2:14 Do all things without grumbling and faultfinding and complaining [against God] and questioning and doubting [among yourselves],
1 Tim 1:4 Nor to give importance to or occupy themselves with legends (fables, myths) and endless genealogies, which foster and promote useless speculations and questionings rather than acceptance in faith of God's administration and the divine training that is in faith (in that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence)--
2 Tim 2:23 But refuse (shut your mind against, have nothing to do with) trifling (ill-informed, unedifying, stupid) controversies over ignorant questionings, for you know that they foster strife and breed quarrels. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1326
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 2:47 pm: |
|
Just to give you an idea of what the whole world looks like...
If Earth's population was shrunk into a village of just 100 people --- with all the human ratios existing in the world still remaining --- what would this tiny, diverse village look like?
That's exactly what Philip M. Harter, a medical doctor at the Stanford University School of Medicine, attempted to figure out. This is what he found:
57 would be Asian
21 would be European
14 would be from the Western Hemisphere
8 would be African
52 would be female
48 would be male
70 would be nonwhite
30 would be white
70 would be non-Christian
30 would be Christian
89 would be heterosexual
11 would be homosexual
6 people would possess 59 percent of the entire world's wealth, and all 6 would be from the United States.
80 would live in substandard housing
70 would be unable to read!!!!
50 would suffer from malnutrition
1 would be near death
1 would be pregnant
1 would have a college education
1 would own a computer
So if your reading this on your own computer, you are a member of the TOP 10% of the WHOLE WORLD!!!!!
I stand corrected! Make that the top 1%!
Thanks Yo!
(Message edited by ex_yathed on August 28, 2005) |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 230
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.171
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
|
Actually if the ratio is that 1 of 100 owns a computer, that's 1%.
However we also have clashing statistics. Above, you said that 2 billion people in the world today cannot read. What's the total population? I'm guessing 5 billion. But then later you say that 70 of 100 cannot read, which is 70% rather than 40%. While I feel warm & fuzzy right now, I also hope I can discern what is relevant, and of that, what is true. |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 231
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.171
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
|
prb.org says 6,477,000,000, so if 2,000,000,000 can't read, that would correspond to, hmm say 30 people or 30% rather than 70. Sorry, XY I've learned not to accept things without a little critical thinking. Your point is still a valid one. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1328
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
Oh MY GOD!!! HE HAS FEELIGS!!!
You got my gist Yo....
Love ya! |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
New member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
|
Actually Lookatall, some of TT members who have expensive meds do have health insurance. One family in my household had health insurance because 2 of the family members have type 1 diabetes.
As far as vaccines go, i am thankful that the children in the TT are spared them. There are safer ways to be protected from diseases, in general, than vaccines. For example, homeopathic "vaccines" have been highly successful in protecting people, as was clearly demonstrated during the influenza outbreak of 1918, and during various smallpox outbreaks in Europe. i speak from experience. i was brain damaged by a vaccine. i am now clinically disabled as a result. Have you read Robert Kennedy jr.'s expose on the dangers of vaccines and the government cover-up? Good, albeit heartbreaking, reading.
In my old clan the TT demonstrated a commendable and effective quarantine when members of one household were infected with whooping cough. They were able to contain it, and thus did not present a danger to the rest of the TT nor to the public. It seems they are learning on that front anyway. |
schmuel (schmuel)
Junior Member
Username: schmuel
Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
|
Amen on the vaccines. The depth of the problems in our society at large from vaccines is huge, from the military usage, to the shot after shot to children
(when I was younger we got just smallpox/cowpox and the oral polio Sabin .. with the possibility of tetanus if you stepped on a rusty nail.. that was essentially it)
to the connections between the WHO program in the 80's as a supposed 'trigger' to the AIDS crisis.
Any group who stands strong on those issues -- they have my heartfelt respect for their stance.
Jenny, my heart goes out to you that you have been a victim of this medical travesty.
May the Lord Jesus give you full healing and vitality and clarity and strength of mind and a special touch of His Holy Spirit as you walk with Him.
In Jesus Name,
Steven in newyawk
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 7:49 am: |
|
I am not clear on this but please correct me if wrong on this point but the tribes are supposed to be separate from the rest of the nation. Ironically the majority of the freedoms and priveleges listed above are available because this is a free country and this board exists because this is a free country. No one has to starve or be tortured in this country unless they inflict it upon themselves via brainwashing or unless they are children who are abused or adults who have been exploited or lost themselves through mental illness. Most babies live longer than a few years. Most women do not die in childbirth. This of course was not always the case.
If you are reading this you had an education. Who paid for that or who paid for the the education of the one who taught you to read?
There are laws that exist in this country that do not exist in the third world which come down very hard on criminal behavior.
The questions I asked about Mr Spriggs were dismissed as bashing but no reason was given why they were dismissed. If they caused discomfort please someone tell me why. If you have left the cult you should not be afraid or ashamed to talk about what happened there. If you still live in fear that means the things that happened cause you discomfort and at the deepest level you know that they were wrong. These violations of human rights will continue until the one who laid down these rules that you refer to as "teachings" is made accountable.
For example what IS done in the communities when people die? Who holds the purse strings? It seems weird that only those with a recognisable disease have the privelege of health care. What happens to those who experience a psychotic episode or cant work? Are they kicked out?
Typically there is a direct ratio between the number of years that an individual was in a cult and the number of years after leaving that the hold of the "teachings" of the leader loses its grip on their rational thinking.
Unfortunatey cults bite the hand of material wealth that feeds them.
Also is visitor 2000 holding HIMSELF accountable to the scriptures he seems to weild. Remember that the word of God is a two edged sword that DISCERNS between soul and spirit. Scripture is also a mirror that reflects back to us our own sin and the gospel message.. 1 Cor 13:12. "For now we see through a glass darkly , but then face to face."
Anyone who was in the cult and left because they felt it was wrong should ask themselves why they left and why wrong things went on there. The relationships and friendships and warm fuzzies that existed in holding together a common belief are what holds people together on this board. If that common belief was wrong those who obviously care about each other here will struggle until they accept the truth of what has happened to them. The relationships they fear to lose can still go on if the caring is there which from the outside perspective seems very deep.
If immunization is an issue of controversy cetainly it is a choice. This is the wrong issue to make central here. |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 232
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.170
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:00 am: |
|
When I was there, granted this is some years ago, Hepatitis B broke out. I relapsed 3 times because I was expected to go back to work before I had recovered. One baby died during that time. I don't see where 'You are in the world, not of it" precludes appropriate medical care. But in the TT that has been taken to mean paranoid fear of anything not within the tribal structure. They used the same 'reasoning' to not pay water bills, or to not pay doctors when they were used. |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 10:50 am: |
|
I am so sorry you had to go through this.
The same laws that prevent anyone from tresspassing on the lands owned by the cult also protect the members from slavery, intimidation and medical neglect..
Using the outside system without any social responsibilty and the annhialation of civil rights of members by leaders is a typical outcome of brainwashing.
Go to the Cornell Law website. |
schmuel (schmuel)
Junior Member
Username: schmuel
Post Number: 33
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
|
Hi yolo,
Not paying water bills and not paying doctors does sound a little dubious. In newyawkcity they had a policy that no water would be shut off for non-payment, a policy that is being changed. However I doubt that is common elsewhere, so it is hard to understand how anybody elsewhere would go a non-payment route.
Also wouldn't that be a poor witness, to use daily what is obviously a critical service, that costs the 'system' resources and money, and not pay ? And wouldn't that backfire if it came to the attention of folks where they are trying to rent, or there were zoning issues, (like the current restaurant question) that there was such a non-payment history ?
Understand that I am not agreeing or disagreeing , I really don't know the history (I've only met TT folks, not an insider) -- so I ask to simply understand this better.
Generally I am not 'into' strident criticism of the TT, since they at least appear to be sincere, and I respect community patterns, but I would like to understand this water payment issue a little better. Similarly with the doctors.
Shalom,
Steven in newyawk
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
|
A social worker in Canada was able single handedly close down an abusive cult several years ago.
You who have civil rights and $16 can order the award winning film, Savage Messiah, which brilliantly shows how a group of people lose their abilities to think for themselves, with tragic results. Of course it is doubtful that the people in the cult who would really benifit from seing this film will ever see this posting. Their youth, freedom of speech, and access to information, were monumental things to give up.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00007L4LV/002-6240274-9636035?v=glance |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
Junior Member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
|
yoloextropian, why did the baby die? |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1331
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
|
I have never witnessed a clan intentionaly not pay a bill that they could afford. But I have seen them not, due to lack of funds. Then I suppose they have to cry out to the Tribe for help or even higher.
I also have seen unmarked graves in the woods of Mo. of children and a member. I dont know the cause of death for any of them. |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 234
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.170
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
|
schmuel, My reference above is to Island Pond. The practice occur over a period of years, and the township didn't turn off services to the households due to overdue payments, but they threatened to. The situation then was that some households made $$ and others did not. THere was a certain amount of redistribution of wealth but also lots of corner-cutting. And yes, I considered that a poor witness at the time.
I'm not intentionally disparaging them. I just found some of the practices frustrating. Especially since if one didn't adhere to 'the mind of the body' in such matters, it was tantamount to being cast into the Lake of Fire for unbelief.
jennymichaelah, I want to say Hep B but it may have been flu. There was quite a bit of discussion about whether or not to get penecillin
for the children then. As I remember we did get some penecillin but no one kid got a complete protocol's worth. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1332
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
|
I heard of a whooping cough outbreak. |
schmuel (schmuel)
Junior Member
Username: schmuel
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
|
Hi Yolo,
Thanks for the clarification. It's easy to see that folks can have problems with bills, individual or community, it just surprised me some to think that water bills would be a problem (comparatively its a small expense compared to so many other things).
Issues with penicillin can be a tough call. My pop is a tad elderly and one of his health secrets is that he 'just says no' .. even to the penicillin the dentists or docs try to foist on him :-) It does have a place, but it is greatly overused. Even in situations like pneumonia a solid, aggressive natural approach seems to work well.
Shalom,
Steven in newyawk |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
Junior Member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
|
Thank you Steven for your kind words and well wishes. It's been a rough day. My baby has his first fever and is miserable so your encouraging words were just what i needed. |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
Junior Member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
|
Yoloextropian, antibiotics wouldn't have helped either hep b or the flu unless there were bacterial complications, but other medical care very well could have. Do you remember whether or not the baby was brought to a hospital? An ex-member friend of mine came close to having her baby die because of very serious medical mismanagement there. She didn't cling to the anointing. She left. Me thinks that YHWH understands. |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
|
If a baby is sick and Mr Spriggs has lots of money why doesnt he pay for the medical treatment? Why are childrens lives endangered needlessly?
Why are graves unmarked? Deaths are supposed to be reported. Hopefully a babys death would be known about by its parents. What if that was a YOUNG adult whose parents think he has disappeared and will never know what happened to him or her. .
Anyone with children can understand how awful that is.
There is a horrifying incident like that in the film Savage Messiah where the leader attempts to heal his wife of stomach cramps by doing an "operation" and instead kills her. Ignorance in medical matters is life threatening. If anyone there attempts to cast out demons, (not sure if this is a practice there) rather than getting proper help, that is like living in the dark ages where illness and disease disease were mostly incurable.Babies that become dehydrated from sickness can also die. What is clinging to the anointing? Who tells parents with sick children to do that? The young mother who left with her baby most likely saved his or her life. |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 37
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
|
Jenny, if your baby is miserable with a fever you can
relieve his or her fever by giving the baby paediatric tylenol. Sure its pink stuff but it does have a safe ingredient to bring down the babys fever. Why dont you ask someone at the group to run into town and get you some? Also it is dangerous not just to a childs life but to their brain develoipment to run high fevers. I am sure your baby is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to you and you will do all that you can to protect him or her. It is OK to ask anyone there to get medical help for the baby, it is not wrong even if it is against the teachings of Mr Yoneq. It is OK to consider that Mr Yoneq makes mistakes. |
ully_exderushah (ully_exderushah)
New member
Username: ully_exderushah
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 84.60.2.65
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:06 am: |
|
Oh dear, lookatall, you can't imagine how sad I just got when I read your advice to Jennymichaela... For people outside the TT that is such an easy, simple thing to do: ask someone to run into town and get some Tylenol.
Well, in the TT it is close to IMPOSSIBLE (at least in the community where I used to live). For that to happen you would have to overcome soo many obstacles:
1) First you have to find the strength to ignore the teaching on natural remedies: "This is not the way we handle a fever in the Edah... we try to avoid chemical substances... our Father has provided such wonderful herbs like Aconite, Belladonna or Elder flowers... sponging the child with cool waters also helps tremendously... and pray! Leave it up to our Father! He sent the fever for a reason, your child's body is fighting something else with it and burning up bad bacteria... if it should get really bad then the elders will pray for your child!"
- difficult, but I guess if your child is really sick you do start to wonder whether you really have to stick to the teachings...
2) The first person you would ask for some Tylenol would be your "covering" who would tell you "no" and repeat the above-mentioned teaching. To ask just anybody else would be the next hurdle as it goes against yet another teaching: the one that you have to be "covered" in anything you do. ("covered" = supervised / given the okay by the person who is responsible for you... in a mother's case that would most likely be her husband)
- even more difficult because respect for the proper order has been hammered into your brain even more than the natural remedies teaching. But I guess if your child is really sick...
3) So you have to try to find someone else who would run into town to the next drugstore...
- very difficult because obviously your brothers and sisters have had the same teachings and will most likely repeat them to you as well (and then go to your covering and tell on you). But for the sake of argument let's assume you are able to convince somebody.
4) Your "ally" would have to leave the house.
- extremely difficult; work schedules are tight, in the community you just don't have that much free time to do something else in between your tasks. Okay, let's assume your ally sneaks away after the day's work is done...
5) In the community I lived in you would need a car to get to the next drugstore.
- almost impossible; some Responsible Brother would have the keys - and of course not give them to you unless you are covered... see 3) for what would happen if you asked for them.
6) Let's assume you or your ally somehow managed to steal the keys, there is actually some fuel in the tank and you can finally drive to town now.
- a little difficult because you have probably not been driving a car for the last 5 years but okay... and of course you have to overcome the fear of having a bad accident because of the teaching that God will punish you when you do something uncovered. Ah well... you have broken so many rules already, at this point I guess that wouldn't bother you THAT much, really.
7) You would have to go into the drugstore and buy the Tylenol.
- HA HA! (sarcastic laugh) ... The ordinary TT member doesn't have any money!
Well, lookatall, maybe that gives you more of an idea of how things work in the TT... But actually that was a very unrealistic account, usually an attempt to go against the teachings stops cold in step 2) when your covering tells you "no". The rest really is fiction. And if you actually did act like that it would be considered "high-handed rebellion" and you might as well leave the Community for good right away...
Fortunately, Jennymichaela is no longer in the TT (at least it sounded to me as if you confused something there) and therefore has no problem to get her child some Tylenol!
Kind regards,
Ully |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
Junior Member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 6:45 am: |
|
Quite right Ully. You are dead on here. And though i prefer to go the natural route myself i have been giving him low doses of tylenol now and again to take the edge off. The pediatrician is not concerned and really it is just to help him rest.
It is wonderful to be able to do what i believe in my heart and mind is best for my son. What a relief. |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:25 am: |
|
Jenny,
Sorry, I did not realise you were no longer in the group.
Ully
Thanks for giving an account of just how impossible it is for a mother to follow her own built in instincts (what Jenny refers to as her heart and mind) that are there to protect her child. I cannot begin to imagine what the mothers of the children buried in the woods have suffered and still suffer until this day.
Ully,
how do you know these things, did you grow up in the Twelve Tribes? And I was just thinking that Jenny would never have been able to tell her story if she were still "inside" the group. People "inside" the group are victims of this kind of mind control that you describe.
In light of this information , if I were a mother there I would do what I believed in my heart and mind and walk to town with my baby and any other children that I had and never come back. |
ully_exderushah (ully_exderushah)
New member
Username: ully_exderushah
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 84.60.2.65
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:38 am: |
|
Ully, how do you know these things, did you grow up in the Twelve Tribes?
I lived in the community in Sus, France ("tribe of Reuben") from 1988 - 1992. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:47 am: |
|
Great post Ully!
They speak of the greek word for sorcery used in the NT which is pharmekia (drugs!). God forbid you perform SORCERY on your child!!! Almost humorous aye?
I had a life threatening case of poison ivy in Arcadia. I had a open oozing sore about a foot in diameter on my abdomin. I was given rhue tox which did nothing but make it worse. I developed a hydro-seal which migrated to my genitals.It was like having one of those twisted balloons you get at a carnival in my trousers. I had to get covered to call Eleazer, who was in Tiajuana at some apricot seed cancer clinic. A new Mexican disciple was getting treatment there. I dont think he's around anymore...So I was told by Eliezer that he would be back in a few days and he would lance my scrotum! FORGET THAT!!! I asked if I could go the VA hospital and he said OK. Thank GOD I had Veterans benefits! The Dr there severely chewed me out for waiting so long.He said"What were you taking?" I told him and he said"You were taking NOTHING!!!". He gave me some cortisone pills and the seal was gone in ONE DAY!!! And the sore healed up in 3.
Im not going to tell you the kidney stone story.... You can imagine...
(Message edited by ex_yathed on August 29, 2005) |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:02 am: |
|
This is all medical neglect. Although traditional medicine has its flaws the death rate is much lower than that of people who go for homeopathic cures. Also homeopathic ( or no) treatment saves Mr Yoneq tons of money that he can keep putting in the bank. I am sure that Mr Yoneq is reading this stuff. Cult leaders have huge egos and basically dont care if the attention they get is positive or negative as long as they get attention. Does anyone think he is posting here?
The postings of medical neglect and control read like a horror story. Ex Yathed experienced a wake up call whilst still in the group and had enough reasoning powers and a strong enough spirit to add it all up and leave. Unfortunately many women in these kind of situations are total victims as in the movie "Savage Messiah", a true story. |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
Junior Member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:30 am: |
|
Lookatall, the TT are not the best witness of "natural" healing. The man in Yehudah who has a burden for homeopathy does not practice a pure form of it (not that that is necessarily bad.) However, it is a somewhat hit or miss approach, as it seems is much of the TT medical practice from what i have seen. Your statement about "traditional" (by which you are referring to modern allopathic medicine) medicine having a lower death rate than homeopathic (by which i think you are referring to naturopathic medicine which may or may not include homeopathy) is questionable. It really depends upon the illness/condition in question and the expertise of the practitioner. The problem i saw in the TT is that they preferred to use natural means but don't have the training to do so in certain cases like in treating David's systemic poison ivy. There are very effective natural treatments for that, but you can't let it get out of control, and you have to know what you are doing. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:44 am: |
|
They shouda had YOU in Arcadia Jenny!!! Although that wouldnt have helped. You wouldnt have any say so. I know how Kim and Stacey must have felt...
(Message edited by ex_yathed on August 29, 2005) |
schmuel (schmuel)
Junior Member
Username: schmuel
Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
|
"homeopathic (by which i think you are referring to naturopathic medicine which may or may not include homeopathy) is questionable."
I agree. The tens of thousand of cases of iatrogenesis (doctor-induced disease) and unnecessary hospital and pharmaceutical deaths are simply bypassed by most.
btw, many purist Christian health naturopathic folks bypass homeopathy, considering it to have a questionable spiritual base. (I'm a bit surprised that Twelve Tribes would use homeopathy). Often those Chrstians working with the best sanitarium types of environments keep a distance from many of the popular alternative health treatments, working more directly with food and diet, herbs and tonic, fasting, sunlight, exercise and such.
Shalom,
Steven in newyawk
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 40
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:43 pm: |
|
I'm talking about serious stuff like cancer, massive wound infections, and heart attacks.
By passes and pace makers save many lives.
Cults are usually full of young people who are healthy and dont even think about having a heart attack.
Hey,a simple cure like cortisone saved the life of David when his poison ivy got out of control.
How DID children and an adult end up in an unmarked grave.?
This is a serious question that I think
with all due respect to Jenny,far outweighs the pros and cons of naturopathy vs homeopathy.
Exderushah writes about how impossible it would be for a mother to obtain tylenol for her baby whilst inside the cult. He refers to teachings that enforce this at every level of power in the cult.. Whoever initiated these teachings is the real culprit in these deaths not the poor ones who try so hard to please their leader. Do they get a promotion or a pat on the head for carrying out orders.? |
ully_exderushah (ully_exderushah)
New member
Username: ully_exderushah
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 84.60.2.65
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 1:46 pm: |
|
Exderushah writes about how impossible it would be for a mother to obtain tylenol for her baby whilst inside the cult. He refers to teachings...
*ahem* ...
I'm usually not someone to pick on other people's spelling or grammar mistakes, especially since I - being German - make lots of them myself... but in this particular case I have to insist that the correct form would be "She refers to teachings... "
|
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
Intermediate Member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 236
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.170
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
|
jenny,
I think not on whether they went to the hospital. I say this by inference rather than really knowing tho. I those years we used an osteopath in Newport, VT who had been disbarred by the AMA, & he could write perscriptions and even had a small dispensary.
I bet the amoxycillin was for strep then, that went around that year also. & that may be what the baby had. Sorry to be so vague. If anyone else has a memory triggered by my comments & cares to enlighten me, I'd be obliged. |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 41
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 152.163.101.12
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
|
Ully i am sorry , I thought you were male. Its hard to tell unless the name or information makes it obvious who is male and female and who is inside and outside the cult. Anyway, I am more interested in what you thought about the comment especially since you apparently lived there.
Did you experience these things in the above posting or did you observe others going through this? |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 22
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
|
Lookatall,
Sadly there are many people that die of cancer in the TT. Though I know of some that have had medical attention and some that even had operations that have saved their lives. Its not that the TT look at modern medicine as the devils cure. however they will not turn to it unless someone is in a life threatening situation, sometimes not even then. As far as death in the community...I do not know where these unmarked graves were but I do know that the TT own a large plot of land in Islandpond VT. where members are put to rest. All deaths are reported, even when a child dies at birth. There is a small gathering of family and leaders for the funeral. Its not like someone dies and they are just forgoten about. The TT are not animals. They love eachother very much. The loss of a member is felt by everyone there, even if they lived in a different tribe. You don't have to know them personaly to feel the pain of loosing them. You know that others are greiving and you feel that. At times I think the TT can be described in such a way that you picture these poor brainwashed souls being devoured by these beasts called "LEADERS". Yes some of the heads of the community look out for their own needs. Yes some are so principaled that they will not think it is a good thing to give your sick baby tylenol. But they are not all like that. Some coverings rule by love and not law. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1336
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
|
Just livin. I concur... |
jennymichaelah (jennymichaelah)
Junior Member
Username: jennymichaelah
Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.174.249.180
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:32 pm: |
|
Me to. But along with the grief is also fear because of the judgement that will transpire. i remember being so relieved when a woman who died of cancer while i was a member was judged as being in the cloud of witnesses.
Lookatall, there are some very beautiful, touching aspects to life in the TT.
As far as the argument allopathic vs naturopathic medicine goes, it is beyond the scope of this forum. But please know that in the hands of a well trained naturopathic doctor, the 3 examples you listed; cancer, massive wound infections and heart attacks, can all be handled very successfully naturally without the residual damage that often occurs in allopathy. There is a very good cancer protocal that was developed by Dr. Kelly. It is quite costly and labour intensive, so maybe that is why the TT do not follow it. The success rate is amazingly high even for terminally ill cancer patients. In the practice i had before joining the TT i specialized in antibiotic resistant infections. i treated some serious conditions all successfully. And everyone should keep some cayenne pepper tincture handy. If anyone is having a heart attack administer the tincture immediately. It works wonders.
Oh that would have been soooo frustrating David. i had to give up medicine (of course)and was waiting to see if it would be given back to me. Now that is torture: to tell someone who has spent years studying naturopathy that they are not use their "worldly" knowledge to ease the suffering of their beloved brothers and sisters. |
justlivin (justlivin)
New member
Username: justlivin
Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 66.67.46.71
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
|
Jenny,
That is so true! Not knowing what judgment would be awaiting your brother or sister was very difficult! That was one thing that really bothered me! I think it is ignorant for any group/person to claim they have God, and his will for us all, figured out. But when it comes to where that person will go after death, I don't think any man has the right to claim they know that. Man judges others actions but only you know your own heart. If indeed there is a mighty God on a mighty throne I can only hope that he will judge you by whats in your heart. |
truth_seeker (truth_seeker)
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 272
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 12.202.117.114
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:06 pm: |
|
"Just curious...why did the cavity get so bad that he was in such unbearable pain and had to have the tooth pulled?
Usually a cavity gets a filling, a root canal and cap if it's really bad. A tooth that has to be pulled has been visibly decaying and physically hurting for awhile.
Now that's love..."
Mozy, They picked the poor lad up at a rock concert. He was brand spanking new to the community, and he had far worse problems than his teeth, and they took care of him...
NOW THAT'S LOVE! |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1337
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
|
Actually they would rather you get an extraction. Its cheaper then a filing and they dont want you getting mercury put in your mouth. And I believe the ones without mercury cost more even yet.
Yeah, they love getting another strong back and weak mind to carry the load... |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.191.36.66
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
|
Ps 31:18 Let the lying lips be silenced, which speak insolently against the [consistently] righteous with pride and contempt. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Senior Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 1339
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:22 am: |
|
 |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:35 am: |
|
Quote from Daily Star, Oneonta, article.
'Ross said most of the money the group makes will be directed to the hierarchy, which eventually ends with its leader, 67-year-old Gene Spriggs Jr. of Chattanooga, Tenn.
"Mr. Spriggs is the absolute authority without question," Ross said. "He lives very well. The elders live fairly well. The others live like dogs."
If I could talk to Mr. Yoneq again now that my initial impressions have been validated, I would ask him why there has been so much mental and physical suffering amongst his tribes. Since he started the group and leads it does he approve of what goes on?
I noticed when I met him that his affect was flat and emotionless and that he was extremely condescending and self righteous. He looked away when asked hard questions, as I were beneath him.
He must love music as he brightened up, when the singing began. However,to me he displays a personality associated with some deep trauma in his past. He has found an outlet for his anger by reducing the gospel message to a threat of hell
by which he holds his charges under sway.
He is definitley unaccustomed to being challenged
If I met him again I would ask him about his relationship with his earthly father as the brutal laws that he lays down must stem from somewhere and that somewhere is not God.
I am sure that there are some "good" leaders in the cult who were raised by loving parents , but their goodness is limited by the approval they need at every step. I am sure also that there is a deep level of caring amongst those who live there , however brainwashing can also cause friends to betray each other in order to get what they most crave, approval.......
If there is an acknowledged graveyard at one location there seems to be other locations where deaths go unreported. People in the cult would not be privy to information about what happens to those who leave or disappear unless they happened to see them.
I assume that visitor 2000 regards himself as one of the consistently righteous. According to Christs teachings we are never righteous within ourselves but only through the message of the gospel. The gospel is a mirror as well as a sword that discerns the intentions of its user whether they are of the soul ( earthly intentions)
or the Spirit (godly intentions.). |
lookatall (lookatall)
Junior Member
Username: lookatall
Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.114.115.125
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 7:00 am: |
|
"The narcissist is addicted to Narcissistic Supply: admiration, adoration, approval, attention and so on. All his activities, thoughts, plans, aspirations, inspiration, and daydreams – in short, all the aspects of his life – are dedicated to regulating the flow of such supply and to rendering it relatively stable and predictable. "
Dr Sam Vaknim, Maligant self love |
visitor2000 (visitor2000)
Member
Username: visitor2000
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.172.26.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
|
Is 59:4 None sues or calls in righteousness [but for the sake of doing injury to others--to take some undue advantage]; no one goes to law honestly and pleads [his case] in truth; they trust in emptiness, worthlessness and futility, and speaking lies! They conceive mischief and bring forth evil! |
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